Dominion Strategy Forum
Dominion => Rules Questions => Topic started by: dz on July 15, 2022, 02:45:23 am
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(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?title=Special%3AFilePath&file=Tactician.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?title=Special%3AFilePath&file=TacticianOld.jpg)(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?title=Special%3AFilePath&file=Coastal Haven.jpg)
During Clean-up, I gain a Tactician (with Improve) and play it (with e.g. Sailor). Since Tactician is making me discard my hand during Clean-up, do I get to use Coastal Haven to keep some of those cards in my hand?
I can see this as either "yeah duh you can use Coastal Haven" or "no Coastal Haven only applies for the regular discarding part of clean-up." And if it's the former, would it literally need to be "discard your hand," or would other discard effects (like an Innovated Capital City) also let you use Coastal Haven?
I could totally see Donald X. ruling that it's the latter, to eliminate this edge case. And I can get behind that, no one's doing this kind of stuff anyway. However, Tunnel and friends have been ruled so that if you discard them at the start of clean-up, you don't get to react, meaning that their "during clean-up" clause doesn't just apply to the regular discarding part of clean-up (man that's an annoying phrase). So uh I dunno.
Anyways, if Coastal Haven/Tactician worked, what if you kept all the cards in your hand? For 2022 Tactician, it seems clear that Tactician would succeed, as it only checks if you had at least 1 card in hand. And for 2009 Tactician (man that old wording is so bad), it seems clear that it would fail, as you didn't actually discard anything.
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I think the card text suggests you should be able to keep the cards in your hand.
The trickier question, to me, is: If you keep some cards from the Tactician, do you need to spend another Favor to also keep them from being discarded by the regular cleanup discarding, or are they already fixed to stay in your hand? What if you played a second Tactician, would that one also automatically fail to discard the cards you saved previously?
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Coastal Haven is referring to normally discarding your hand in Clean-up, and does not interact with Tactician.
Also, mental note, Improve should be end-of-buy-phase (yes then Villa makes it trigger again, ugh).
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In addition to playing Tactician in Clean-up, this also covers playing Hunting Lodge, Minion, Scholar and Way of the Mole.
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Follow up thoughts/questions/clarifications-
The cards chosen for Coastal Haven (CH), like Improve, are never technically discarded. So if there was a theoretical card/effect that had a when-discard trigger that wasn’t excluded in the Clean-up phase, it couldn’t fire off with cards kept by CH’s effect.
The timing for CH’s trigger is pseudo-start of Clean-up, correct? If any true start of Clean-up effects trigger, they would be resolved before CH.
Mechanically, it feels like Improve and CH want to have the same trigger timing. If they did, and you would choose the order, I can’t think of a reason you would prefer CH to happen first, but edge-cases for it going second definitely exist. So we’re happy with how we have it anyway, right? ;) Actually, since you don’t even pick which cards to keep until you actually discard the hand (right?), then the order is irrelevant. (Edit: edge case for Improve-Sycophant, Improve with Guildmaster in play, or Improve-Innovation/Sailor a Liaison (directly or indirectly)) So “never mind” to most of this paragraph.
With all that said, we know there were 5 different (yet basically equivalent) printed wordings tried with CH, and I’m curious how many just used “start of Clean-up”, and if any tried “end of your Buy phase”. There’s no issue with the current wording, of course.
Also, mental note, Improve should be end-of-buy-phase (yes then Villa makes it trigger again, ugh).
At this point how likely is it that Improve will see a wording change—added to the current round of errata/tweaks / next version sent to the printer?
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With all that said, we know there were 5 different (yet basically equivalent) printed wordings tried with CH, and I’m curious how many just used “start of Clean-up”, and if any tried “end of your Buy phase”. There’s no issue with the current wording, of course.
There was start of buy phase, end of buy phase, and start of clean-up.
At this point how likely is it that Improve will see a wording change—added to the current round of errata/tweaks / next version sent to the printer?
The normal procedure is to only have errata when a set is getting printed - when there will actually be a physical card with the new wording. I made an exception for the "fix the shapeshifting mess" errata, and then for this recent errata because Stef wanted to do a bunch of errata at once instead of when each set came out. But that isn't the normal way it goes. When Renaissance gets reprinted again, I will again consider, did any of these need to change, using whatever knowledge I have at that moment.