Dominion Strategy Forum
Dominion => Dominion General Discussion => Topic started by: Donald X. on June 29, 2022, 03:00:11 am
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(https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/946677362215518218/991595355261112390/hinterlands_2e_WED1.PNG)
Noble Brigand is a fixed Thief, and yet still too weak. Bandit turns out to be the actual fixed Thief.
Berserker is another Attack that attacks right away. But the Attack is more meaningful, and it comes with more stuff.
(https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/946677362215518218/991595421745041518/hinterlands_2e_WED2.PNG)
Ill-Gotten Gains is a cute concept, but in practice makes for bad experiences. It was hard to even try to make a replacement along the same lines; I don't want games to be about emptying a certain pile that also empties the Curses, plus the Duchies.
Cauldron isn't tied to gaining Cauldrons, so it doesn't empty its own pile, just the Curses, and it's not even great at emptying those. But it's a Silver with a +Buy so it doesn't have to always Curse them. And it ties into the when-gain theme, being better with cards like Border Village.
(https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/946677362215518218/991595494616875008/hinterlands_2e_WED3.PNG)
Silk Road was another borderline card. The experts were sure they didn't have to see it any more. I couldn't just replace it with another Victory card though - they take two extra cards, and the update pack just had room for one extra card. Hinterlands is no longer the set with 3 Treasures, 3 Victory cards, 3 Reactions; now it's, 2 Treasures, 2 Victory cards, 6 Reactions.
Trail is such a thing of beauty. It's like the most Hinterlandsy Hinterlands card. It plays into both the when-gain and filtering themes, and is a Reaction. You can imagine a board where there's no combo for it, but really it never happens.
Three cards got errata. As you know, I was avoiding while-in-play and also when-buy. So. Farmland is now when-gain. To avoid loops with Fortress, it can't gain Farmland. That was just the simplest fix. Haggler is this-turn; now you can Throne Room it. It still cares about bought cards, because it had to, but it triggers on gains like everything else. And then Highway is also a Throne-able this-turn.
Here's the set:
(https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/946677362215518218/991595801795108925/hinterlands_2e_full.PNG)
All together, the three update packs amount to 27 new cards - a full expansion, out of nowhere.
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These are all really really cool! Sad to see Silk Road go, but Trail looks absolutely amazing. Throneable Highway sounds bonkers, but I like bonkers.
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Trail is such a thing of beauty. It's like the most Hinterlandsy Hinterlands card. It plays into both the when-gain and filtering themes, and is a Reaction. You can imagine a board where there's no combo for it, but really it never happens.
Fun story: I just started a game being unaware that there final previews were out, and saw Trail. "Cute card" I thought, then checked the board... there was no combo for it :P
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Trail is going to be super fun! I love its simplicity and synergy thanks to all the keyword triggers. Side note… I appreciate these revisions DonaldX… especially the fact that you could’ve just milked these 27 cards for a new expansion, but chose to revise earlier ones instead. Those who criticize your choices do it because they love your game, but as it’s your game (and a more than 15 year creative project) I understand your drive to refine and perfect it.
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Oops I forgot to do this yesterday. Well for some reason Nomads doesn't have a FAQ in DomBot yet, but I think that card isn't too difficult to figure out.
Guard Dog:
• When you play this, you draw 2 cards, then count the cards in your hand; if it's 5 or fewer, you draw 2 more cards.
• When another player plays an Attack card, you may play this before that Attack resolves; then the Attack still happens (unless you stop it another way, such as with a Moat you just drew).
• So if another player plays Berserker, and you respond with Guard Dog, you'll first draw 2 cards, then discard down to 3 cards in hand.
• As usual playing it means putting it into play and following its instructions.
• If you play this during another player's turn, you discard it from play during that turn's Clean-up.
Souk:
• For example, if you play Souk and have 3 other cards left in your hand, you'd get +$7 (and +1 Buy), and then lose $3 for a net gain of +$4
• You can't go below $0 but might end up with less $ than you started with.
• When you gain Souk, trash up to 2 cards from your hand; you don't have to trash any.
Berserker:
• When you gain a Berserker, if you have an Action card in play you play the Berserker; this means it will go into play, and you'll gain a cheaper card and then the other players will discard down to 3 cards in hand.
• They can still use cards like Moat then.
• If you gain a Berserker with no Actions in play, however, you don't play it.
Cauldron:
• If you gain three Actions before playing Cauldron that turn, then it won't give out a Curse.
• It doesn't matter how many non-Action cards you gained; the third time you gain an Action, each other player gains a Curse.
• This is cumulative if you play multiple Cauldrons.
• This a Treasure, so you play it in your Buy phase, but also an Attack, so cards like Guard Dog and Moat can be used in response to it.
Trail:
• When you play this, you simply get +1 Card and +1 Action.
• When you gain, trash, or discard this, other than in Clean-up, you may play it; see the When Discarded section.
• As usual playing it means putting it into play and following its instructions.
• If you play Trail on another player's turn, the +1 Action won't be useful, and you discard Trail from play in that turn's Clean-up.
• If you trash Trail, playing it means you get the Trail back; it will go into play, and be discarded into your discard pile in that turn's Clean-up.
• This still counts as trashing it; if you Remodel a Trail you can play it and then gain a Gold from Remodel, and so on.
(Additional ruling: If you gain or trash Trail during Clean-up (with Improve), you can't use its reaction.)
And even though these wordings don't change anything, here's a summary of those "non-functional changes" in Ingix's post.
-Philosopher's Stone/Diadem/Horn of Plenty: Dropped "when you play this."
-Young Witch: "Cards from that pile are Bane cards" -> "Its cards are Banes."
-Butcher: Simplified down to "You may trash a card from your hand, to gain a card, costing up to $1 more than it per Coffers you spend."
-Caravan Guard: Dropped reminder text.
-Hireling/Champion: Dropped "this stays in play" (although they obviously still stay in play forever).
-Champion: Clarifies that you get +1 Action "first."
-Mission: Clarifies that you can still buy Events.
-Encampment/Farmers Market/Temple/Wild Hunt/Experiment: "the Supply" -> "its pile"
-Settlers/Bustling Village: Dropped "look through your discard pile".
-Guardian: Now worded like most Duration effects now ("at start of next turn...until then..."). Don't worry about the wording on Monkey.
-Haunted Castle: "puts 2 cards from their hand onto their deck" -> "puts 2 of them onto their deck"
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My only shock was the loss of Silk Road. I wonder what else was borderline 🤔
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Also! RGG says: "We start shipping Prosperity on Thursday and Hinterlands on Friday."
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Also! RGG says: "We start shipping Prosperity on Thursday and Hinterlands on Friday."
My wallet hurts
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I guessed wrong about Develop being removed but glad it stayed as I liked it more than Silk Road, which I found was rarely a good buy, and thought Silk Road was a likely removal too.
With Margrave staying, the addition of Berserker makes for two "discard down to three" attacks in the set. Berserker's gain ability looks like it will be equivalent to Workshop except that it doesn't get more powerful with cards that reduce costs.
Trail looks like the most interesting of the three new cards and continues with the theme of adding new reactions. Its discard effect looks very nice, especially in conjunction with something like Witch's House, and its trashing effect looks even better, and superior even to that of Fortress, also making it a great Trash for Benefit card.
Cauldron is consistent with the other two Treasure-Attack cards in costing $5 and providing $2, with a Buy thrown in unlike the other two. It looks like it will synergise well with gainers as this means fewer Actions need to be bought to curse everyone. It has a nice combination with the gaining of Death Cart.
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With Silk Road gone it kind of sucks that Farmland survived, as getting rid of 2 victory cards would have allowed for a new card to fill the blanks. On the other hand of the departing cards I kind of miss Embassy but I can't think of any of the other 7 want to keep, so in terms of update packs it's fine.
I would have preferred Margrave disappear over Silk Road, as I have remembered many games where it's been the comeback card (like any good alt VP), while Margrave is just too strong and not fun (and now not even the only Militia style Attack in the set). But you can't get everything you want, and I'm so grateful these sets were updated.
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I really wish Trail got an effect that was useful in a buy phase though. Something like +2 buys to be a Travelling Fair, or something like Pawn on top, or Cantrip Anvil/Mountains Gift, or Sky's Gift.
It's such a good design but there are many games where it would have really cool interactions with its trashing and discarding effects, but it will just suck to have it do nothing when you buy it then never line up. Every card can have that problem of being a bad buy, but "this card should work here but it doesn't" is a bad experience.
Still it will be really fun when it works. Looking forward to a pro pulling off an engine where Trail+Horse Traders is the only "village". I haven't cared about "waste of a slot" much since Adventures came out.
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BERSERKER is a powerful Militia effect that can act as a Workshop instead if necessary. Oh, and it’s ALSO PROMPT.
TRAIL is a powerful 1-card draw that can act as a nonterminal instead if necessary. Oh, and it's ALSO PROMPT.
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I feel like Silk Road wasn't different enough from Gardens to be its own card. I also have a particular fondness for cards that are when-gain and when-trash, so I'm happy to see a few of those.
I'm excited to get this new "expansion". It's basically like getting three expansions this year!
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Trail looks like it'll be lots of fun with any Remodel variant or trash-for-benefit
Cauldron would work really well with cards like Experiment and Port which make it easier to hit that 3 Actions. Supplies would also be a great combo with it
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Trail is cwazy just because of the way how it avoids getting put into the trash
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How does Trail interact with Militia variants ("discards down to 3 cards in hand")? Do you end up with 3 cards in hand or 4, if you discard a Trail to someone else's Militia?
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How does Trail interact with Militia variants ("discards down to 3 cards in hand")? Do you end up with 3 cards in hand or 4, if you discard a Trail to someone else's Militia?
You pick and discard all at once, then react one by one. So you would have 4 in hand.
Also, because of this, if you discard multiple cards, react with a Village Green, choose to draw now which causes a reshuffle, then any remaining reactions you discarded can’t trigger.
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Still it will be really fun when it works. Looking forward to a pro pulling off an engine where Trail+Horse Traders is the only "village".
Thank you, now I very much want to take my horses down the trail to make some extra sales ;D
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I’m personally sad to see I’ll gotten gains go. Another copper strategy bites the dust. But I am glad to Silk Road go. And now we have 2 militia variants in one expansion awesome.
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Berserker is a fun combo with Collection, assuming there are desirable Action cards costing $4 or less in the kingdom, since it can come with a "bonus" Action in that case
Trails has a ton of combos, and I can't wait to explore more of them. I've already had a game with Trails + Horse Traders and Trails + Remodel, both of which were fun. Remodel a Trail to another Trail and you've got a Lost City effect!
It's too bad the reaction doesn't work during Clean-Up, since otherwise you could Improve a Trail to a $5 card without losing it, but I can see that it makes for simpler wording that way (I guess you could go "When you gain or trash this, or when you discard this other than in Clean-Up" to make the reaction for trashing and gaining work during Clean-Up, but that wording would be kind of weird just for that one combination). It's also interesting that, unlike Fortress, the trash-but-keep is optional rather than obligatory
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Oh, I just realized that with Trail's reaction, this is the first non-Night card that can be played during the Night phase! Trash it with Bat or Exorcist, and you can use its reaction to play it. Of course, you won't be able to do anything with the +1 Action, and unless you draw another Night card, you won't be able to do anything with that draw, but at least you avoid losing the card that way
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Oh, I just realized that with Trail's reaction, this is the first non-Night card that can be played during the Night phase! Trash it with Bat or Exorcist, and you can use its reaction to play it. Of course, you won't be able to do anything with the +1 Action, and unless you draw another Night card, you won't be able to do anything with that draw, but at least you avoid losing the card that way
Any Action can be played during the Night phase with City-State or Innovation.
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Oh, I just realized that with Trail's reaction, this is the first non-Night card that can be played during the Night phase! Trash it with Bat or Exorcist, and you can use its reaction to play it. Of course, you won't be able to do anything with the +1 Action, and unless you draw another Night card, you won't be able to do anything with that draw, but at least you avoid losing the card that way
No, wait, Berserker can also be played during Night if gained with a Vampire while you have at least one Action card in play
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Oh, I just realized that with Trail's reaction, this is the first non-Night card that can be played during the Night phase! Trash it with Bat or Exorcist, and you can use its reaction to play it. Of course, you won't be able to do anything with the +1 Action, and unless you draw another Night card, you won't be able to do anything with that draw, but at least you avoid losing the card that way
Any Action can be played during the Night phase with City-State or Innovation.
Oh, right, I forgot about those
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Oh, I just realized that with Trail's reaction, this is the first non-Night card that can be played during the Night phase! Trash it with Bat or Exorcist, and you can use its reaction to play it. Of course, you won't be able to do anything with the +1 Action, and unless you draw another Night card, you won't be able to do anything with that draw, but at least you avoid losing the card that way
Any Action can be played during the Night phase with City-State or Innovation.
And subsequently, any Treasure.
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Potentially fun combo with Berserker: Duration + Barbarian + Berserker
You have a Duration card in play. Your opponent plays a Barbarian, trashes a $6 Action card. You gain a Berserker, and play it. Could be especially fun if your opponent had drawn a lot of cards before playing that Barbarian
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I’m personally sad to see I’ll gotten gains go. Another copper strategy bites the dust. But I am glad to Silk Road go. And now we have 2 militia variants in one expansion awesome.
One card that mentions Copper =/= "Strategy"
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Haven't played any yet, but at first glance this looks like you hit it out of the park. All these look great and all the replaces are great too. I will actually miss silk road, but trail looks really neat too
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Is Berserker's "if you have an action in play" condition primarily there to stop it from screwing people over in the first 1-2 turns?
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Any reason why Haggler doesn't say "gain a card you bought" kind of like the new Swamp Hag? It seems just like a clearer/simpler version of "gain a card, if you bought it".
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I wonder why Berserker isn't a Reaction card; it seems to meet all the requirements.
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I don't know how I feel about the fact that playing a card from the Trash automatically means that the card is now part of your deck. We know from many other Command card examples that playing a card, leaving it there, does not cause the card to become part of your deck. It seems somewhat counterintuitive that "leaving it there" now means not only that the card doesn't move, but it also has an extra meaning that the card doesn't become part of your deck. I guess there's a new rule that any card that ends up in your play area automatically becomes part of your deck?
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I wonder why Berserker isn't a Reaction card; it seems to meet all the requirements.
No "when you gain this" cards are Reactions... Trail is specifically because of the Discard part.
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Oh, I just realized that with Trail's reaction, this is the first non-Night card that can be played during the Night phase! Trash it with Bat or Exorcist, and you can use its reaction to play it. Of course, you won't be able to do anything with the +1 Action, and unless you draw another Night card, you won't be able to do anything with that draw, but at least you avoid losing the card that way
Another way you can play a non-Night card during your Night phase is if you gain a card (either costing up to $4, or an Imp) with Devil's Workshop, and play it with something like Innovation.
Also I notice from the Dominion Wiki that the man depicted on Berserker is based on the same person as for Navigator.
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Also I notice from the Dominion Wiki that the man depicted on Berserker is based on the same person as for Navigator.
Based purely on the art, it looks like Dale Yu has an awful lot less hair and a lot more anger at the world than he did back when Seaside 1st edition came out. I guess it has been a pretty tough 13 years or so. I like to imagine that the character depicted in both cards might also be the same person after some tough years at sea or something. Unclear what the other cards in his traveller pile would be though!
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The ex-cards are all cards that I liked in principle, but are limited by how much they suck in practice.
Silk Road, the alt-VP that rewards slogs. I like Alt-VP, and one less alt-VP card means it shows up slightly less often. But the experience was usually very similar to Gardens, but narrower. Gardens is already fairly narrow. When is Silk Road better than Gardens, when half of your deck is Victory cards? Isn't that the same condition for Scout being good?
IGG, a peddler variant that instead of drawing a card makes your opponent draw one card less. Or a relic variant, if you prefer that analogy. This isn't that strong as a baseline, and it's worse if your opponent can trash or sift the curse. The main thing it had going for it was the IGG rush, which was fun for being a different experience, but arguably made the game worse. I'm sure there are many ways to fix this card, maybe we'll see them in the future, or in variants.
Noble Brigand, I wish it trashed treasures besides silver and gold. But it was a stepping stone to Bandit so I can't complain. And Berserker, now that's an interesting card.
I remember at the time it came out, Hinterlands was more complex than previous sets, and it seemed like some cards just put multiple unrelated abilities together. Mandarin puts together the on-gain ability, the +$3, and the topdecking ability, how do those gel together exactly? Well maybe it never really gelled for Mandarin, but it gelled for Jack of All Trades. Since then, card complexity has gone up, so the complexity of Hinterlands doesn't stand out as much. What stood out was how Hinterlands pushes larger more money-ish decks. Besides Spice Merchant, all the trashers are liable to gain more cards than they trashed (Trader, Develop, Jack of All Trades). The villages are relatively non-standard and awkward (Border Village, Crossroads, Inn, and now Trail). I like that the new cards preserve Hinterlands' invisible theme while also promoting more visible elements of the theme.
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I don't know how I feel about the fact that playing a card from the Trash automatically means that the card is now part of your deck. We know from many other Command card examples that playing a card, leaving it there, does not cause the card to become part of your deck. It seems somewhat counterintuitive that "leaving it there" now means not only that the card doesn't move, but it also has an extra meaning that the card doesn't become part of your deck. I guess there's a new rule that any card that ends up in your play area automatically becomes part of your deck?
That's not an "extra meaning" for "leaving it there"; that's the entire meaning of "leaving it there"—you leave it where it is, instead of putting it in your play area. Trail doesn't say "leaving it there" (i.e., in the Trash), and the text of Trail specifies that the card may be in the Trash, so Trail self-playing from the trash moves it into the play area for the same reason that Golem playing a card moves it into the play area from set-aside-cards land. The stop-moving rule doesn't apply the way it would for say, Throne/Horse because Throne doesn't know to look for the Horse in its pile; but Trail does know to look for itself in the trash.
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Is Berserker's "if you have an action in play" condition primarily there to stop it from screwing people over in the first 1-2 turns?
Yes.
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Any reason why Haggler doesn't say "gain a card you bought" kind of like the new Swamp Hag? It seems just like a clearer/simpler version of "gain a card, if you bought it".
Both wordings were obvious and I went with the one that seemed better here.
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Is Berserker's "if you have an action in play" condition primarily there to stop it from screwing people over in the first 1-2 turns?
Yes.
My fiancé just played Necropolis using Way of the Owl and pulled it off anyway. 😁
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I’m personally sad to see I’ll gotten gains go. Another copper strategy bites the dust. But I am glad to Silk Road go. And now we have 2 militia variants in one expansion awesome.
One card that mentions Copper =/= "Strategy"
Interestingly Silk Road was one of the strategies where additional Coppers weren't such a bad idea
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(Additional ruling: If you gain or trash Trail during Clean-up (with Improve), you can't use its reaction.)
Why is this ruling needed, since it says "other than during Clean-up" on the card?
-Mission: Clarifies that you can still buy Events.
So "Projects" was forgotten then. Hinterlands has neither after all.
EDIT: Forgot that Mission wasn't in Hinterlands.
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[-Mission: Clarifies that you can still buy Events.
So "Projects" was forgotten then. Hinterlands has neither after all.
The obvious: Mission is from Adventures, which has Events, but no Projects.
Those errata are simply what the next printing of the card will say (as currently planned). Putting the reminder on Mission is supposed to help with the kinds of cards a player is guaranteed to have around. If they also have Renaissance, they will most likely make the leap to see that those can be bought as well.
That this errata was published now, at the end of Hinterlands 2E preview, has more to do with the fact the digital changes are easier to make and more importantly easier to distribute. Instead of waiting for each set to be reprinted with a few cards changing and chaning it online then, the changes were combined to a big one.
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How does Trail interact with Militia variants ("discards down to 3 cards in hand")? Do you end up with 3 cards in hand or 4, if you discard a Trail to someone else's Militia?
You pick and discard all at once, then react one by one. So you would have 4 in hand.
Where is this ruling from? The last ruling I have read about this, and I'm pretty sure the last one from Donald in this forum, is that you discard one at a time for Militia (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20160.msg826332#msg826332) (the way it had been from the start).
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How does Trail interact with Militia variants ("discards down to 3 cards in hand")? Do you end up with 3 cards in hand or 4, if you discard a Trail to someone else's Militia?
You pick and discard all at once, then react one by one. So you would have 4 in hand.
Where is this ruling from? The last ruling I have read about this, and I'm pretty sure the last one from Donald in this forum, is that you discard one at a time for Militia (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20160.msg826332#msg826332) (the way it had been from the start).
Aren’t you one of the people that (constantly) fact-checks the FAQs, including “other rules clarifications”? See Village Green. Related: Have you been playing that when you draw 1 with VG’s reaction in response to a Militia-effect, that you immediately discard again? That scenario is the same as the question I was answering.
But back to the discard all-at-once question: The quote you linked doesn’t seem definitive at all. @MrSir712 makes a great point in that thread (emphasis added)- But my original point was that following basic logic: out of any group of cards that is discarded, the one which appears on the top of the discard pile must be visible. Now if the cards are discarded individually there are no groups (as the only card in each "group" is the one being individually discarded) and as such each player in any physical game has the right to demand the names of each card discarded individually, and that is absurd.
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(Additional ruling: If you gain or trash Trail during Clean-up (with Improve), you can't use its reaction.)
Why is this ruling needed, since it says "other than during Clean-up" on the card?
Presumably to clear up the ambiguity over whether "other than during Clean-up" applies to all three abilities, or only to the discarding
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First impressions, haven’t played any preview cards yet:
Berserker looks so cool. Another straight gainer Attack like Vampire, yay! The main reason I love Mercenary and Catapult is that they are so unique as the only straight trasher Attacks. And the Knights, of course (Anna and Natalie). (Donald, pleeease don’t remove Mercenary, like you hinted in your past “what-if” Dark Ages 2E musings.)
Haha I just imagined these two in the same kingdom—Skirmisher + Berserker, lulz. I think they might actually be the same dude, when he’s both on and off duty, or perhaps before and after unemployment ;D ;D Oh! Maybe that’s why they can’t trigger each other’s attack :o Yep, that’s now my head-canon.
Cauldron looks solid. Nice to pick up for just the convenient +Buy, at a minimum. And the Curse is a cool extra while engine building. Also, it has good synergy with terminal gainers/remodelers.
Trail- first thought was “why does this cost 4?”, but I have to assume it was tested at cheaper prices and had some cwazy explosions at 2 and even 3 coin. Someone was saying it’s superior to Fortress. I recently played a Broker+Fortress engine (with Upgrade and some help from Fishing Village). It was nice to keep trashing (TfB) the same Fortress (and play them when you draw multiples) to both build and draw the deck. If I had Trail instead, I think the main difference is I would need a couple more copies of Trail for the consistency and I wouldn’t be able to spam the Upgrades as much, on the other hand I could easily skip the Fishing Villages. If it was an Apprentice engine instead, Fortress is probably favored over Trail.
Thematically, it feels like Trail and Tide Pools would be good names for Victory cards. Hey, did you hear about Farmland and Trail? So I decided to grow crops on the old road behind my property, and wouldn’t you know it—as soon as we started tilling the soil, my remaining servants decided to blaze a new path across the other side of my land and inexplicably found gold in the stream running nearby! What a whacky time that was.
I’m glad the other cards (Develop, Margrave, Fool’s Gold) that people were predicting for removal didn’t get cut. You guys had me scared, although I don’t get Fool’s Gold very often. IGG is fun, but I won’t miss it too much—been there, done that. I always thought Nomad Camp could just be $3, although I guess that can give some swingy/imbalanced openings. Nomads feels very solid at its price point though. Someone was saying Witch’s Hut looks worse than Embassy? You nuts, mayn. Embassy was fine, but WH looks far more desirable to me. The main thing I like, at first sight, is they’re both soft-terminal (meaning cards that can deal with “over-terminaling”), but with WH you are much happier with collisions.
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I don't know how I feel about the fact that playing a card from the Trash automatically means that the card is now part of your deck. We know from many other Command card examples that playing a card, leaving it there, does not cause the card to become part of your deck. It seems somewhat counterintuitive that "leaving it there" now means not only that the card doesn't move, but it also has an extra meaning that the card doesn't become part of your deck. I guess there's a new rule that any card that ends up in your play area automatically becomes part of your deck?
That's not an "extra meaning" for "leaving it there"; that's the entire meaning of "leaving it there"—you leave it where it is, instead of putting it in your play area. Trail doesn't say "leaving it there" (i.e., in the Trash), and the text of Trail specifies that the card may be in the Trash, so Trail self-playing from the trash moves it into the play area for the same reason that Golem playing a card moves it into the play area from set-aside-cards land. The stop-moving rule doesn't apply the way it would for say, Throne/Horse because Throne doesn't know to look for the Horse in the supply; but Trail does know to look for itself in the trash.
What I mean is that before Trail, it was never known that a card moving to your play area caused it to be part of your deck. Maybe that should have just been obvious, but nothing ever mattered for it. Without such a rule, “leaving it there” only would affect a played card’s location; not its ownership. Because that rule exists, “leaving it there” now also prevents the card from becoming yours.
It was the same when Fortress was released. A new rule had to be added, specifically written or not, that says that a card you don’t own moving to your hand causes that card to be part of your deck.
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Interesting. I’m going to use the word “acquire” to denote a card becoming your card (i.e. it is included in your deck at end of game, unless at some point it is “unacquired”).
Ways to acquire a card (edit: assuming the card wasn’t already yours):
* Anytime you gain a card, in any way and for any reason.
* A card is passed or put into your hand. Precedent: Masquerade, Fortress
* Anytime you Exile a card.
* Anytime you set aside a card. Precedent: Inheritance …
* (unless the original instruction later moves the card somewhere else you don’t control(?), e.g. the Supply) Precedent: none?
* Anytime you play a card edit: in your play area. Precedent: Trail
* (edit) Anytime you take a card in exchange for another.
—hypotheticals—
* A card is put or passed into a zone you control, e.g. deck, play area, Tavern mat. Precedent: none, other than the scenarios already covered
That was fun. Did I miss any? I thought I could come up with more hypotheticals, but alas I am tired this week.
And I’ll leave it someone else for the unacquire list. :D
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After playing for a while I am here to report that Cauldron actually sucks. By the time you are ready to gain three actions, you might as well just buy a province. Usually buying enough 2s and 3s to activate it means your engine is a lot weaker. Truth be told it would be a great card if it were the second action and not the third action.
It's a 5 cost woodcutter that in very limited situations can give out a curse? :o Gross
even donald x says so in the explanation
Cauldron isn't tied to gaining Cauldrons, so it doesn't empty its own pile, just the Curses, and it's not even great at emptying those. But it's a Silver with a +Buy so it doesn't have to always Curse them. And it ties into the when-gain theme, being better with cards like Border Village.
[/s]
misread the card. Looks much better now. :P
The other 2 are great though.
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I’m personally sad to see I’ll gotten gains go. Another copper strategy bites the dust. But I am glad to Silk Road go. And now we have 2 militia variants in one expansion awesome.
One card that mentions Copper =/= "Strategy"
in fairness this card does print coppers, but usually not very strategic to so so.
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After playing for a while I am here to report that Cauldron actually sucks. By the time you are ready to gain three actions, you might as well just buy a province. Usually buying enough 2s and 3s to activate it means your engine is a lot weaker. Truth be told it would be a great card if it were the second action and not the third action.
It's a 5 cost woodcutter that in very limited situations can give out a curse? :o Gross
even donald x says so in the explanation
Cauldron isn't tied to gaining Cauldrons, so it doesn't empty its own pile, just the Curses, and it's not even great at emptying those. But it's a Silver with a +Buy so it doesn't have to always Curse them. And it ties into the when-gain theme, being better with cards like Border Village.
The other 2 are great though.
Donald X is very unlikely to ever design an alt-Silver for less than $5, for reasons that have been thoroughly cemented while play testing such cards over the years. (He regrets making Stockpile.) Getting your +Buys from Treasures is extremely efficient, and usually worth the cost increase (or whatever other downside is attached).
Buying a bunch of 2s and 3s just to trigger the attack sounds awful. A Cauldron in an engine with a gainer/remodeler should do much better, especially once you are hitting a total payload of $8 and higher. (You know you don’t have to gain all 3 Actions after playing the Cauldron, right?) This synergy is especially nice with good terminal gainers/remodelers, since the Cauldron don’t care. And a shoutout to the Horse gaining cards.
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Interesting. I’m going to use the word “acquire” to denote a card becoming your card (i.e. it is included in your deck at end of game, unless at some point it is “unacquired”).
Ways to acquire a card:
* Anytime you gain a card, in any way and for any reason.
* A card is passed or put into your hand (assuming it wasn’t already yours). Precedent: Masquerade, Fortress
* Anytime you Exile a card (assuming it wasn’t already yours).
* Anytime you set aside a card (assuming it wasn’t already your card). Precedent: Inheritance …
* (unless the original instruction later moves the card somewhere else you don’t control(?), e.g. the Supply) Precedent: none?
* Anytime you play a card (assuming it wasn’t already yours). Precedent: Trail
—hypotheticals—
* A card is put or passed into a zone you control, e.g. deck, play area, Tavern mat (assuming it wasn’t already yours). Precedent: none, other than the scenarios already covered
That was fun. Did I miss any? I thought I could come up with more hypotheticals, but alas I am tired this week.
And I’ll leave it someone else for the unacquire list. :D
I think you missed several, but I'm not in front of my computer. We already went through this in another thread. The definition of your cards is the cards in your zones, has been like that for a while. Your hand, your deck, your discard pile, your play area, your set-aside area (including mats).
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Interesting. I’m going to use the word “acquire” to denote a card becoming your card (i.e. it is included in your deck at end of game, unless at some point it is “unacquired”).
Ways to acquire a card:
* Anytime you gain a card, in any way and for any reason.
* A card is passed or put into your hand (assuming it wasn’t already yours). Precedent: Masquerade, Fortress
* Anytime you Exile a card (assuming it wasn’t already yours).
* Anytime you set aside a card (assuming it wasn’t already your card). Precedent: Inheritance …
* (unless the original instruction later moves the card somewhere else you don’t control(?), e.g. the Supply) Precedent: none?
* Anytime you play a card (assuming it wasn’t already yours). Precedent: Trail
—hypotheticals—
* A card is put or passed into a zone you control, e.g. deck, play area, Tavern mat (assuming it wasn’t already yours). Precedent: none, other than the scenarios already covered
That was fun. Did I miss any? I thought I could come up with more hypotheticals, but alas I am tired this week.
And I’ll leave it someone else for the unacquire list. :D
I think you missed several, but I'm not in front of my computer. We already went through this in another thread. The definition of your cards is the cards in your zones, has been like that for a while. Your hand, your deck, your discard pile, your play area, your set-aside area (including mats).
Thanks, Nick. I was under no illusion that that was the technical definition of what cards are yours, hence the “i.e.”
I look forward to seeing what I didn’t cover for all ways that a card can change from being !yours to yours.
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Interesting. I’m going to use the word “acquire” to denote a card becoming your card (i.e. it is included in your deck at end of game, unless at some point it is “unacquired”).
Ways to acquire a card:
* Anytime you gain a card, in any way and for any reason.
* A card is passed or put into your hand (assuming it wasn’t already yours). Precedent: Masquerade, Fortress
* Anytime you Exile a card (assuming it wasn’t already yours).
* Anytime you set aside a card (assuming it wasn’t already your card). Precedent: Inheritance …
* (unless the original instruction later moves the card somewhere else you don’t control(?), e.g. the Supply) Precedent: none?
* Anytime you play a card (assuming it wasn’t already yours). Precedent: Trail
—hypotheticals—
* A card is put or passed into a zone you control, e.g. deck, play area, Tavern mat (assuming it wasn’t already yours). Precedent: none, other than the scenarios already covered
That was fun. Did I miss any? I thought I could come up with more hypotheticals, but alas I am tired this week.
And I’ll leave it someone else for the unacquire list. :D
I wish I had thought to use “acquire” instead of “get” when I wrote this thread 7 years ago: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13116.0
I think Trail / playing a card is the only thing to add to my list since last time I edited it.
You missed Exchange. And actually we both missed buying a card. A card you buy becomes yours before you gain it, although with the new errata removing all on-buy triggers, I don’t think this distinction would ever matter.
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Interesting. I’m going to use the word “acquire” to denote a card becoming your card (i.e. it is included in your deck at end of game, unless at some point it is “unacquired”).
Ways to acquire a card:
* Anytime you gain a card, in any way and for any reason.
* A card is passed or put into your hand (assuming it wasn’t already yours). Precedent: Masquerade, Fortress
* Anytime you Exile a card (assuming it wasn’t already yours).
* Anytime you set aside a card (assuming it wasn’t already your card). Precedent: Inheritance …
* (unless the original instruction later moves the card somewhere else you don’t control(?), e.g. the Supply) Precedent: none?
* Anytime you play a card (assuming it wasn’t already yours). Precedent: Trail
—hypotheticals—
* A card is put or passed into a zone you control, e.g. deck, play area, Tavern mat (assuming it wasn’t already yours). Precedent: none, other than the scenarios already covered
That was fun. Did I miss any? I thought I could come up with more hypotheticals, but alas I am tired this week.
And I’ll leave it someone else for the unacquire list. :D
Your point regarding Play also isn't fully accurate. You should say "unless instructed to leave it somewhere". And actually, entering a zone you control covers everything.
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All together, the three update packs amount to 27 new cards - a full expansion, out of nowhere.
This leads me to several questions:
1) is this the "expansion" that people have been expecting to come out later this year? (I recall your saying the you have enough material for another expansion, not that a whole new expansion was coming.)
2) Will there be a combined update pack for the three updated expansions (as you have enough material for a full box)?
3) Is this the end of the 2E updates for now?
4) Will there be any update pack(s) for the tweaked cards?
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Donald X announced the fall expansion in the Seaside 2E secret history. http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=21231.0 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=21231.0)
I usually have a section going on about outtakes. Seaside 2E though was worked on at the same time as both Allies and the fall expansion (fall expansion?). Ideas went back and forth (Sentinel at one point was going to replace Lookout). So most of these outtakes aren't really looking to be talked about yet.
And it’s been confirmed by other Dominion “cadre” since then, with I believe a predicted October timeframe.
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Donald X announced the fall expansion in the Seaside 2E secret history. http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=21231.0 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=21231.0)
I usually have a section going on about outtakes. Seaside 2E though was worked on at the same time as both Allies and the fall expansion (fall expansion?). Ideas went back and forth (Sentinel at one point was going to replace Lookout). So most of these outtakes aren't really looking to be talked about yet.
And it’s been confirmed by other Dominion “cadre” since then, with I believe a predicted October timeframe.
Thank you for this. At least it is something concrete to go on. Personally, I will believe it when I see an official announcement of the expansion including its name and an official release date (or target release date). I suspect that October is a bit optimistic given the current environment (which delayed the release of Allies for months), but this does give me confidence that the expansion will appear either late this year or early next year.
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After playing for a while I am here to report that Cauldron actually sucks. By the time you are ready to gain three actions, you might as well just buy a province. Usually buying enough 2s and 3s to activate it means your engine is a lot weaker. Truth be told it would be a great card if it were the second action and not the third action.
It's a 5 cost woodcutter that in very limited situations can give out a curse? :o Gross
even donald x says so in the explanation
Cauldron isn't tied to gaining Cauldrons, so it doesn't empty its own pile, just the Curses, and it's not even great at emptying those. But it's a Silver with a +Buy so it doesn't have to always Curse them. And it ties into the when-gain theme, being better with cards like Border Village.
The other 2 are great though.
(You know you don’t have to gain all 3 Actions after playing the Cauldron, right?)
really? Because I played it in a game with mockingbird and it wasn't handing out curses. Or maybe I'm wrong. That does make it a lot better then.
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Interesting. I’m going to use the word “acquire” to denote a card becoming your card (i.e. it is included in your deck at end of game, unless at some point it is “unacquired”).
Ways to acquire a card:
* Anytime you gain a card, in any way and for any reason.
* A card is passed or put into your hand (assuming it wasn’t already yours). Precedent: Masquerade, Fortress
* Anytime you Exile a card (assuming it wasn’t already yours).
* Anytime you set aside a card (assuming it wasn’t already your card). Precedent: Inheritance …
* (unless the original instruction later moves the card somewhere else you don’t control(?), e.g. the Supply) Precedent: none?
* Anytime you play a card (assuming it wasn’t already yours). Precedent: Trail
—hypotheticals—
* A card is put or passed into a zone you control, e.g. deck, play area, Tavern mat (assuming it wasn’t already yours). Precedent: none, other than the scenarios already covered
That was fun. Did I miss any? I thought I could come up with more hypotheticals, but alas I am tired this week.
And I’ll leave it someone else for the unacquire list. :D
I wish I had thought to use “acquire” instead of “get” when I wrote this thread 7 years ago: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13116.0
I think Trail / playing a card is the only thing to add to my list since last time I edited it.
You missed Exchange. And actually we both missed buying a card. A card you buy becomes yours before you gain it, although with the new errata removing all on-buy triggers, I don’t think this distinction would ever matter.
That thread was a funny read! Ack I missed exchange, dang; I might make some edits later.
I wasn’t including cases where a card was technically unacquired, but naturally becomes yours again by the time all effects have resolved (Possession).
The buy thing is interesting, since by definition you gain the card anyway unless instructed otherwise. Does that mean a Possessed player technically owned a bought card before the Possessor did? Also, have there been any cases where 1. You buy a card. 2. It is interrupted by some trigger, and never subsequently gained. 3. It is still acquired by end of the turn. 4. And none of the other methods we listed above occurred (which would cause it to be acquired regardless)? If not, then I’m not as concerned ;D
Your point regarding Play also isn't fully accurate. You should say "unless instructed to leave it somewhere". And actually, entering a zone you control covers everything.
I see what you mean with your first sentence. But, I mean, you can choose to add a sentence similar to that as an addendum to any process, or you can leave it out, assume it’s implied, and save yourself some time. (says the guy who put the same assumption on almost every line) :D But I might edit it in, thank you.
For your second sentence, sure, that’s another definition of what we’re talking about. But just stating it is a bit circular; that doesn’t give us the fun list. ;)
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(You know you don’t have to gain all 3 Actions after playing the Cauldron, right?)
really? Because I played it in a game with mockingbird and it wasn't handing out curses. Or maybe I'm wrong. That does make it a lot better then.
Well that’s what happens when the third Action you gained was before you even played the Cauldrons, ya goof. ;)
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All together, the three update packs amount to 27 new cards - a full expansion, out of nowhere.
This leads me to several questions:
1) is this the "expansion" that people have been expecting to come out later this year? (I recall your saying the you have enough material for another expansion, not that a whole new expansion was coming.)
2) Will there be a combined update pack for the three updated expansions (as you have enough material for a full box)?
3) Is this the end of the 2E updates for now?
4) Will there be any update pack(s) for the tweaked cards?
There is a new expansion coming, of all new stuff, unrelated to the 2E's; we currently are trying to have it out in October, but in this day and age it's really hard to get what you want there.
There are no plans currently for a combined update pack box. I do not see a lot of merit in this.
There are no further announced 2E's; that's all I can ever say there.
There are no plans currently to do any update packs for errata. It sounds like a really awful product to me.
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All together, the three update packs amount to 27 new cards - a full expansion, out of nowhere.
This leads me to several questions:
1) is this the "expansion" that people have been expecting to come out later this year? (I recall your saying the you have enough material for another expansion, not that a whole new expansion was coming.)
2) Will there be a combined update pack for the three updated expansions (as you have enough material for a full box)?
3) Is this the end of the 2E updates for now?
4) Will there be any update pack(s) for the tweaked cards?
There is a new expansion coming, of all new stuff, unrelated to the 2E's; we currently are trying to have it out in October, but in this day and age it's really hard to get what you want there.
Thank you much for making this official. I look forward to learning more about this new expansion.
Good luck with the October target date. I see it as a good sign the you are still looking to get it out then.
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(You know you don’t have to gain all 3 Actions after playing the Cauldron, right?)
really? Because I played it in a game with mockingbird and it wasn't handing out curses. Or maybe I'm wrong. That does make it a lot better then.
Well that’s what happens when the third Action you gained was before you even played the Cauldrons, ya goof. ;)
ahhh that makes sense. gotta add mockingbird/cauldron to the antisynergy list :-*
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The buy thing is interesting, since by definition you gain the card anyway unless instructed otherwise. Does that mean a Possessed player technically owned a bought card before the Possessor did? Also, have there been any cases where 1. You buy a card. 2. It is interrupted by some trigger, and never subsequently gained. 3. It is still acquired by end of the turn. 4. And none of the other methods we listed above occurred (which would cause it to be acquired regardless)? If not, then I’m not as concerned ;D
I think the reason the buy thing came about in the first place was with the original wording on Inheritance that transformed "your" Estates to have abilities. People expected the when-buy and when-gain abilities from the Inherited card to trigger when you bought an Estate, so the Estates needed to be "yours" at that point so they could have those abilities. That doesn't appear to matter anymore, so "acquiring on buying" may no longer be a thing (or need to be).
I'm not sure if this is an answer to your specific question, but I guess, with old Trader you could buy a card, have it become yours, then trash it before gaining decline to gain it. Again, not anymore with current Trader (but maybe some other how).
EDIT: Brain forgot how Trader worked.
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Buying a card making it yours was indeed only defined for original Inheritance, and I see no reason it would be valid anymore. It didn't make much sense in the first place. Original Trader canceled the gain before you gained the card, so it was never yours. Possession works exactly the same way.
If I'm not mistaken, luckily no current cards care about card ownership, except at the end of the game of course.
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Original Trader canceled the gain before you gained the card, so it was never yours. Possession works exactly the same way.
Well, if you bought an Inherited Estate, it did briefly become yours long enough to trigger the when-buy. If you then cancelled the gain with Trader, that would also have needed to make the Estate not yours or else it'd be sitting in the Supply belonging to you for an arbitrary period of time.
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If I'm not mistaken, luckily no current cards care about card ownership, except at the end of the game of course.
Market Square cares about card ownership. That said, I don't think there are any ways to trash cards that are in a state of ambiguous ownership.
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Original Trader canceled the gain before you gained the card, so it was never yours. Possession works exactly the same way.
Well, if you bought an Inherited Estate, it did briefly become yours long enough to trigger the when-buy. If you then cancelled the gain with Trader, that would also have needed to make the Estate not yours or else it'd be sitting in the Supply belonging to you for an arbitrary period of time.
Right, with the rule from original Inheritance that bought cards are yours. But not without that rule.
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If I'm not mistaken, luckily no current cards care about card ownership, except at the end of the game of course.
Market Square cares about card ownership. That said, I don't think there are any ways to trash cards that are in a state of ambiguous ownership.
I wonder why Market Square didn’t just say “when you trash a card”? Maybe Lurker, Gladiator, and/or Salt the Earth were in the design pool at the time. Even so, it wouldn’t be too crazy; you would still have to have the MS in your hand, and only one gold gain per reaction.
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If I'm not mistaken, luckily no current cards care about card ownership, except at the end of the game of course.
Market Square cares about card ownership. That said, I don't think there are any ways to trash cards that are in a state of ambiguous ownership.
I wonder why Market Square didn’t just say “when you trash a card”? Maybe Lurker, Gladiator, and/or Salt the Earth were in the design pool at the time. Even so, it wouldn’t be too crazy; you would still have to have the MS in your hand, and only one gold gain per reaction.
Market Square needed to be clear with e.g. Thief, and otherwise, the exact wordings weren't so polished.
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I wonder why Berserker isn't a Reaction card; it seems to meet all the requirements.
No "when you gain this" cards are Reactions... Trail is specifically because of the Discard part.
I see now that the weird thing is that Faithful Hound, Tunnel, Village Green, Weaver and Trail are Reactions. "When you gain this" and "when you trash this" do not make a card a Reaction, so why does "when you discard this"? It would make more sense if Reactions only triggered when other cards did something, which is the case for most of them.
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"When you discard this" is a reaction so that it works when the card could be otherwise hidden (if something else was discarded on top of it) as well as to remind players about it (same as with patron)
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"When you discard this" is a reaction so that it works when the card could be otherwise hidden (if something else was discarded on top of it) as well as to remind players about it (same as with patron)
How does it help that it's blue if it's hidden?
Patron is presumably blue because it's easy to miss the below-the-line stuff when you're just revealing it. "When-gain" is not so easy to miss, because you would usually look more closely at a card you're gaining. But discarding and trashing seem pretty similar; both could involve several cards at once.
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"When you discard this" is a reaction so that it works when the card could be otherwise hidden (if something else was discarded on top of it) as well as to remind players about it (same as with patron)
How does it help that it's blue if it's hidden?
Patron is presumably blue because it's easy to miss the below-the-line stuff when you're just revealing it. "When-gain" is not so easy to miss, because you would usually look more closely at a card you're gaining. But discarding and trashing seem pretty similar; both could involve several cards at once.
Maybe I'm simply trying to engineer a sensible solution, but a central difference between "when-trash" and "when-discard" is that "when-trash" does something while the card is not yours. You should clearly only be able to react with a Reaction if the Reaction is actually yours, so in this view it make sense to have "when-discard" be a Reaction but "when-trash" not.
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It was a question back when, should I color when-gain and when-trash.
The key thing for me is to draw your attention to a card you're not paying attention to. Moat isn't involved in anything when you get attacked; it has to draw your attention. Well. Gaining a card means you're already paying attention to it. You can argue that you're also paying attention to the card you're discarding, but it can be e.g. "your hand" due to Minion.
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It was a question back when, should I color when-gain and when-trash.
The key thing for me is to draw your attention to a card you're not paying attention to. Moat isn't involved in anything when you get attacked; it has to draw your attention. Well. Gaining a card means you're already paying attention to it. You can argue that you're also paying attention to the card you're discarding, but it can be e.g. "your hand" due to Minion.
But now someone like me is going to point out that Count can trash "your hand", and if Fortress is in it, you still have to know to deal with that.
There's also something of a consistent explanation about public vs non-public locations. A card being trashed is moved to a public place. A card being gained is moving from a public place. A card being discarded may be going from a private place to another private place.
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But now someone like me is going to point out that Count can trash "your hand", and if Fortress is in it, you still have to know to deal with that.
And me, in my previous post. :P
There's also something of a consistent explanation about public vs non-public locations. A card being trashed is moved to a public place. A card being gained is moving from a public place. A card being discarded may be going from a private place to another private place.
Not really, since all the when-discard cards have rules saying that you have to reveal them.
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right but you're revealing them *from* a private zone
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"When you discard this" is a reaction so that it works when the card could be otherwise hidden (if something else was discarded on top of it) as well as to remind players about it (same as with patron)
How does it help that it's blue if it's hidden?
Patron is presumably blue because it's easy to miss the below-the-line stuff when you're just revealing it. "When-gain" is not so easy to miss, because you would usually look more closely at a card you're gaining. But discarding and trashing seem pretty similar; both could involve several cards at once.
Another thing to consider is that on-gain effects are already depleted by the first time you have the card in hand, so the blue color would be misleading.
And with regards to trashing, well, trashing already mandates paying big attention to the card as you loose it. Discarding less so. Especially Tunnel as that is a Victory card. And on top of that, the trash effect only occurs once, while the discard effect could occur every shuffle.
But it is also just historically determined.
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And with regards to trashing, well, trashing already mandates paying big attention to the card as you loose it. Discarding less so.
I'm pretty sure I remember Donald basically saying this exact thing about why Fortress wasn't a reaction; that trashing is already something you pay close attention to.
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So has any one got a physical copy of hinterlands yet? If so when?
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Fair point about cards you pay attention to. (You pay more attention to cards you're trashing than cards you're discarding maybe.) But the following is still not a valid point, although people seem to think so:
There's also something of a consistent explanation about public vs non-public locations. A card being trashed is moved to a public place. A card being gained is moving from a public place. A card being discarded may be going from a private place to another private place.
Not really, since all the when-discard cards have rules saying that you have to reveal them.
right but you're revealing them *from* a private zone
And you're trashing cards from a private zone; you're most often trashing cards from your hand. Both discarding and trashing can be from your hand or from somewhere else, and both are pretty normal for both.
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Fair point about cards you pay attention to. (You pay more attention to cards you're trashing than cards you're discarding maybe.) But the following is still not a valid point, although people seem to think so:
There's also something of a consistent explanation about public vs non-public locations. A card being trashed is moved to a public place. A card being gained is moving from a public place. A card being discarded may be going from a private place to another private place.
Not really, since all the when-discard cards have rules saying that you have to reveal them.
right but you're revealing them *from* a private zone
And you're trashing cards from a private zone; you're most often trashing cards from your hand. Both discarding and trashing can be from your hand or from somewhere else, and both are pretty normal for both.
But by the time the when-trash effect takes place, the card is in the (public) trash, no?
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But by the time the when-trash effect takes place, the card is in the (public) trash, no?
Yes, we discussed that already in the posts you're quoting. You're moving a card being trashed to a public place, but that is also the case for a card being discarded.
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But by the time the when-trash effect takes place, the card is in the (public) trash, no?
Yes, we discussed that already in the posts you're quoting. You're moving a card being trashed to a public place, but that is also the case for a card being discarded.
GendoIkari is right, not all discards happen publicly: e.g. discarding your hand to Minion, where other players only see the top card you discarded. So the other hand cards go from a private place (hand) to a completely hidden place (discard pile), without being revealed before discarding.
Same with Cartographer from this expansion when you discard several cards - though in this case, since you have carefully chosen which cards to discard, you'll rarely miss a discard reaction anyway.
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But by the time the when-trash effect takes place, the card is in the (public) trash, no?
Yes, we discussed that already in the posts you're quoting. You're moving a card being trashed to a public place, but that is also the case for a card being discarded.
GendoIkari is right, not all discards happen publicly: e.g. discarding your hand to Minion, where other players only see the top card you discarded. So the other hand cards go from a private place (hand) to a completely hidden place (discard pile), without being revealed before discarding.
Same with Cartographer from this expansion when you discard several cards - though in this case, since you have carefully chosen which cards to discard, you'll rarely miss a discard reaction anyway.
I guess you're agreeing that "revealing from a private zone" is not a valid argument.
Ok, so now we're back to revealing discarding to a private zone. As I said: "Not really, since all the when-discard cards have rules saying that you have to reveal them."
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But by the time the when-trash effect takes place, the card is in the (public) trash, no?
Yes, we discussed that already in the posts you're quoting. You're moving a card being trashed to a public place, but that is also the case for a card being discarded.
GendoIkari is right, not all discards happen publicly: e.g. discarding your hand to Minion, where other players only see the top card you discarded. So the other hand cards go from a private place (hand) to a completely hidden place (discard pile), without being revealed before discarding.
Same with Cartographer from this expansion when you discard several cards - though in this case, since you have carefully chosen which cards to discard, you'll rarely miss a discard reaction anyway.
I guess you're agreeing that "revealing from a private zone" is not a valid argument.
No? The discard pile (other than the top card) is a private zone. If you discard a few cards, no one will ever know what the third one from the top is unless you reveal it. If you reveal that the third one is a Tunnel, you're revealing it from a private zone. Similarly, if you have a bunch of cards in your hand, no one will know that the third one is a Moat unless you reveal it. I'm not sure what you're objecting to in that analysis.
Ok, so now we're back to revealing to a private zone. As I said: "Not really, since all the when-discard cards have rules saying that you have to reveal them."
The reason you have to reveal them is because the discard pile is a private zone. Catacombs doesn't say "when you trash this, reveal it and gain a cheaper card"; you don't have to reveal it because the trash is already visible. Tunnel doesn't say "when you discard this, you may gain a Gold"; you have to reveal it, for the same reason Trader doesn't say "while this is in your hand, when you gain a card, you may exchange the gained card for a Silver."
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Sorry! I've been reading and writing the wrong verb several times.
When Joefarebrother wrote "right but you're revealing them *from* a private zone" I misread and thought he was talking about discarding, not revealing. (The emphasis on "from" confused me.) And then in my last post, I even wrote "reveal" when I meant "discard". :p
So I have to start again. Yes, now the argument makes more sense. Hmmm. I guess I was thinking that there's a special rule for when-discard cards that you have to reveal them, even Village Green, Weaver and Trail, which are moved to play for all to see. There's no such rule for Sheepdog etc.
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So has any one got a physical copy of hinterlands yet? If so when?
Mine showed up Saturday.
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Sorry! I've been reading and writing the wrong verb several times.
When Joefarebrother wrote "right but you're revealing them *from* a private zone" I misread and thought he was talking about discarding, not revealing. (The emphasis on "from" confused me.) And then in my last post, I even wrote "reveal" when I meant "discard". :p
So I have to start again. Yes, now the argument makes more sense. Hmmm. I guess I was thinking that there's a special rule for when-discard cards that you have to reveal them, even Village Green, Weaver and Trail, which are moved to play for all to see. There's no such rule for Sheepdog etc.
Actually, Tunnel is the only "when discard" card with an explicit "reveal", for accountability reasons. The other "when discard" cards (Trail, Weaver, Village Green and Faithful Hound) do not have it, since they already become public by being played/set aside when you use their "when discard" ability, just like Fortress becomes public when trashed (for a single moment).
So discarding in general is different from gaining/trashing in terms of "publicness", though it's debatable whether this is a good reason for deciding what should be a Reaction - as discussed, all "when discard" Reactions specifically make themselves public while reacting. There's also the case of Patron's "when reveal" - it's triggered from a public position by definition, yet it is a Reaction.
I do think that without the colouring, it would be easier to miss e.g. Weaver's ability with a Minion discard, than to miss Fortress' ability when trashing it. But that's unrelated to public/private information; like Donald said, the point is "to draw your attention to a card you're not paying attention to".
FWIW, I wish Scheme was a Reaction, for that same reason. In RL games, I forget to use its clean-up ability about half the time I've played it... :-[
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Actually, Tunnel is the only "when discard" card with an explicit "reveal", for accountability reasons. The other "when discard" cards (Trail, Weaver, Village Green and Faithful Hound) do not have it
It's in the Hinterlands rulebook.
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All together, the three update packs amount to 27 new cards - a full expansion, out of nowhere.
Thanks for the new cards and the explanations. If those 27 cards really were a full expansion by themselves, then there would be recommended kingdoms containing the new cards from across Seaside, Prosperity and Hinterlands, right? So any chance for some recommended kingdoms containing more than 2 expansions?
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All together, the three update packs amount to 27 new cards - a full expansion, out of nowhere.
Thanks for the new cards and the explanations. If those 27 cards really were a full expansion by themselves, then there would be recommended kingdoms containing the new cards from across Seaside, Prosperity and Hinterlands, right? So any chance for some recommended kingdoms containing more than 2 expansions?
Making recommended sets is work I am not especially interested in doing. Other people make them though, for example Kieran Millar has a site with a bunch, and the Dominion Reddit has a kingdom of the week.
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Just got a copy of Hinterlands v2 upgrade pack today. The new cards look super cool. Hinterlands was already my favorite expansion. But I wanted to +1 the lamenting of the loss of Silk Road. It's the only Alt-VP in Hinterlands that is big enough for you to develop a strategy around it (you can win the game with Silk Road, mostly ignoring Province, but you can't do that with Tunnel or Farmland). I like Silk Road better than Gardens because you can make it build faster, and having a fat deck is not a prerequisite for Silk Road being really valuable. Silk Road is strong by itself if there's any good filter card in play (like Stables), and it's often the dominant strategy on boards with Tunnel, Great Hall / Mill, Nobles, Island, etc., which can't be said of Gardens. Another nice thing about Silk Road is the dynamic where a player rushing Silk Road forces other big money / engine players to bite the bullet and buy a few themselves since getting all 12 Silk Roads is really strong (that's automatically a 36-point deck and can easily grow to a 60+ deck). I hope Silk Road returns in another set or as a standalone promo card for folks not fortunate enough to own a copy of Hinterlands v1.
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Just got a copy of Hinterlands v2 upgrade pack today. The new cards look super cool. Hinterlands was already my favorite expansion. But I wanted to +1 the lamenting of the loss of Silk Road. It's the only Alt-VP in Hinterlands that is big enough for you to develop a strategy around it (you can win the game with Silk Road, mostly ignoring Province, but you can't do that with Tunnel or Farmland). I like Silk Road better than Gardens because you can make it build faster, and having a fat deck is not a prerequisite for Silk Road being really valuable. Silk Road is strong by itself if there's any good filter card in play (like Stables), and it's often the dominant strategy on boards with Tunnel, Great Hall / Mill, Nobles, Island, etc., which can't be said of Gardens. Another nice thing about Silk Road is the dynamic where a player rushing Silk Road forces other big money / engine players to bite the bullet and buy a few themselves since getting all 12 Silk Roads is really strong (that's automatically a 36-point deck and can easily grow to a 60+ deck). I hope Silk Road returns in another set or as a standalone promo card for folks not fortunate enough to own a copy of Hinterlands v1.
It is also WanderWinder's favorite card. And while beating him is already a tall order, it becomes downright impossible when Silk Road is on the board.
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Just to follow up on this, our wishes have been granted and a Silk Road replacement was announced as a promo card, Marchland! Thanks, Donald X! :D
https://www.reddit.com/r/dominion/comments/1agg1mm/new_promo_card_marchland/
https://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Marchland
Hoping I can get one at Gen Con this year… 8)