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Dominion => Dominion General Discussion => Topic started by: dz on May 04, 2022, 10:00:05 pm

Title: Prosperity 2E
Post by: dz on May 04, 2022, 10:00:05 pm
After 2021 had no new Dominion content, I guess it makes sense that 2022 would pick up the pace. Hey VP token cards were tried out in Allies, this really shouldn't be that shocking.

https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgameexpansion/362517/dominion-prosperity-second-edition
(The front cover's also cute: https://boardgamegeek.com/image/6849008/dominion-prosperity-second-edition)

"Dominion: Prosperity (Second Edition) contains nine new types of Kingdom cards, which will be released on their own as an update pack for those who own the first edition of this expansion. A few cards will receive minor errata, but these will not appear in the update pack."

What's getting kicked out for the 9 cards? Well I can tell you that unlike Seaside 1E, Prosperity 1E doesn't have 11 blanks in it. I also predict that everyone will complain that card X got removed and card Y survived, but that's to be expected.
Title: Re: Prosperity 2E
Post by: BBobb on May 04, 2022, 10:08:32 pm
Cards I think will be removed:
Trade Route
Goons
Royal Seal
Counting House
Mountebank
Forge
Contraband
Loan
Talisman
Title: Re: Prosperity 2E
Post by: spineflu on May 04, 2022, 10:28:14 pm
I think it's going to be (* replaced with something similar that works in a "this turn" rather than a "while this is in play" sense)
Venture
Royal Seal
Trade Route
Mountebank
Hoard*
Quarry
Goons*
Talisman*
KC
Title: Re: Prosperity 2E
Post by: Hockey Mask on May 04, 2022, 11:45:19 pm
When? When?! WHEN!!!
Title: Re: Prosperity 2E
Post by: Cuzz on May 05, 2022, 12:17:50 am
nine new types of Kingdom cards

seems like a lot of new types
Title: Re: Prosperity 2E
Post by: Donald X. on May 05, 2022, 12:37:39 am
When? When?! WHEN!!!
We expect it a few weeks after Seaside 2E; I can't pin it down more just yet.
Title: Re: Prosperity 2E
Post by: 4est on May 05, 2022, 11:18:21 am
Personally, I hope Loan stays. I never got the Loan hate, I think it's honestly one of the better Copper trashers in Dominion. It's often a $3 Junk Dealer in the early game and helps cycle through your Estates. And it can even do a Chancellor thing in the late game if you have no other Treasures. Yes, it plays worse on boards without $ from Actions and the classic Loan hitting Silver and Loan hitting Loan opening fails are always funny, but I still think it's easily the best Kingdom Treasure in Prosperity apart from Quarry.
Title: Re: Prosperity 2E
Post by: Commodore Chuckles on May 05, 2022, 06:24:23 pm
Royal Seal: Obvious Dud #1.
Trade Route: Obvious Dud #2.
Venture: Less interesting than it seemed #1.
Contraband: Less interesting than it seemed #2.
Loan: One of the best trashers when you're building a Treasureless engine, but... you're not always building a Treasureless engine. The annoyance factor will probably doom it, and a card that seeks out Treasures and trashes them doesn't really fit in with a set that's all about gaining Treasures.
Hoard: Outclassed by Haggler.
Goons: Will probably have the same change as Merchant Guild, and maybe the Attack will be removed.
Counting House: Might be replaced with "You may put your deck into your discard pile and put up to 3 Coppers from it into your hand."
Mountebank: Maybe "Each other player gains a Curse, and gains a Copper if they didn't."
Title: Re: Prosperity 2E
Post by: J Reggie on May 05, 2022, 10:18:41 pm
I predict that Trade Route will be removed (no need for coin tokens) and we will get more +VP cards to make use of the VP tokens. Although that raises the question of whether the update pack will have tokens in it. Probably not because it's assuming you already have Prosperity 1E.
Title: Re: Prosperity 2E
Post by: Oyvind on May 06, 2022, 04:29:38 am
My guesses for removed cards are:

Contraband
Counting House
Goons
Kingís Court
Mountebank
Royal Seal
Trade Route
Venture
Workerís Village
Title: Re: Prosperity 2E
Post by: GendoIkari on May 06, 2022, 10:34:01 am
I can't begin to imagine a Dominion in which King's Court has been removed.
Title: Re: Prosperity 2E
Post by: Imrahil3 on May 06, 2022, 10:48:14 am
Iím getting to be a little disappointed with how eager people are to axe cards. Dominion and Intrigue benefited greatly from update packs, but to me itís getting to the point where the criteria for update is no longer ďThis is a terrible card that makes the game worse for everyoneĒ but rather ďThis is a card that is not useful in my hyper-optimized megaturn engine that buys 17 Provinces in a turn.Ē

I trust Donaldís game design and I know he wouldnít pull cards if he wasnít going to replace them with other cool cards. Iím excited to see what we get in the update packs!

But gosh, some people have some awful takes about what should be removed.
Title: Re: Prosperity 2E
Post by: GendoIkari on May 06, 2022, 11:04:19 am
Iím getting to be a little disappointed with how eager people are to axe cards. Dominion and Intrigue benefited greatly from update packs, but to me itís getting to the point where the criteria for update is no longer ďThis is a terrible card that makes the game worse for everyoneĒ but rather ďThis is a card that is not useful in my hyper-optimized megaturn engine that buys 17 Provinces in a turn.Ē

I trust Donaldís game design and I know he wouldnít pull cards if he wasnít going to replace them with other cool cards. Iím excited to see what we get in the update packs!

But gosh, some people have some awful takes about what should be removed.

Absolutely. There's only 2 reasons things should ever be considered for removal. The card is so weak that it just never gets bought by anyone other than complete beginners, and those beginners end up losing because they bought the card. Or the card has an issue of being too confusing or long to resolve in which case it's replaced with a better version of the same thing.

And even then, "removed" might mean something to some people, especially those who play online and can't use them anymore, or those who don't own 1st edition sets. But for me, Woodcutter is always going to be a Dominion card, it's in my Dominion box and everything!
Title: Re: Prosperity 2E
Post by: Jack Rudd on May 06, 2022, 11:37:38 am
Absolutely. There's only 2 reasons things should ever be considered for removal. The card is so weak that it just never gets bought by anyone other than complete beginners, and those beginners end up losing because they bought the card. Or the card has an issue of being too confusing or long to resolve in which case it's replaced with a better version of the same thing.
There's also "this card dominates in an unfun way when it's present", but Prosperity doesn't really suffer from that - King's Court and Goons may be dominant cards, but they make for interesting deck-building decisions.
Title: Re: Prosperity 2E
Post by: trivialknot on May 06, 2022, 12:09:36 pm
Donald X's previous comments on Prosperity:

With my Dominion Time Machine... (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=3179.msg56362#msg56362)
Prosperity:

Prosperity got more testing than any other set, due to being pushed back for Alchemy. It did not need even more testing; whatever cards could be improved, it would not be worth spending time improving them. That's time that could be spent improving other expansions or working on other games. That's how I see it.

That said, Loan is easily the dud for me. I knew this during that extra testing period but decided to keep it. Looking at it in the set, it's okay. It has basically the same issues as Lookout, only not as bad; less experienced players are terrified of flipping over a Platinum that they now don't get to draw on this pass, while experienced players know that Loan is fine but not the best trasher ever; sometimes it's exciting because you are not buying any other treasures this game. I buy it more than Lookout, but whatever, in general this flipping over of cards thing has to come paired with something like "and get the good ones" in order to not bum people out too much. I don't think Venture makes people not buy it because maybe they'll flip over their good actions, although they will sometimes. But Loan, not a star. Anyway I kept it in knowing this.

Talisman would be a lot more exciting if it could get VP cards somehow, but some people do like it as is. There might have been a good tweak there, dunno. Counting House is narrow but a set can have a narrow card, some people love winning with narrow cards in the games where they are good enough. I just beat FTL's turn-two Mountebank with it so there you go.

What cards would you remove if later sets had an actual 2E overhaul? (https://www.reddit.com/r/dominion/comments/dpg1ty/what_cards_would_you_remove_if_later_sets_had_an/f5vtmpw/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
Quote
Prosperity: Trade Route, Talisman, Contraband, Mountebank, Venture, Royal Seal. Yes I'd keep Counting House as a narrow card that's sometimes fun. Mountebank would go for being strong and making the game less fun, the rest include some nice concepts but want to be better.
Title: Re: Prosperity 2E
Post by: trivialknot on May 06, 2022, 12:21:30 pm
Kind of funny that in 2012, DXV thought Loan was the dud, but in 2020 doesn't even include it in the list of cards he'd remove.  Loan has probably benefited from shifts in the meta over time.

Assuming DXV hasn't changed his mind on those six (Trade Route, Talisman, Contraband, Mountebank, Venture, Royal Seal), that still leaves possibly 3 others to remove.  I'd bet on Counting House even if DXV said he wanted to keep it.  I'd like to see Goons be replaced with something that's a bit less dominating.  Vault and Hoard are probably the next weakest cards, so maybe we'd see one of those go.
Title: Re: Prosperity 2E
Post by: infangthief on May 06, 2022, 02:37:54 pm
I can't begin to imagine a Dominion in which King's Court has been removed.

Emperor's Palace
$10 Action
You may play an Action card from your hand four times.
Title: Re: Prosperity 2E
Post by: GendoIkari on May 06, 2022, 03:10:14 pm
I can't begin to imagine a Dominion in which King's Court has been removed.

Emperor's Palace
$10 Action
You may play an Action card from your hand four times.

I almost included this exact idea in my post lol.
Title: Re: Prosperity 2E
Post by: Imrahil3 on May 06, 2022, 03:53:19 pm
Kind of funny that in 2012, DXV thought Loan was the dud, but in 2020 doesn't even include it in the list of cards he'd remove.  Loan has probably benefited from shifts in the meta over time.

I think Iíd agree with that. If Treasure is desirable, Loan is a dangerous play, but if even Gold is seen as an inconvenient stop card, then the risk of playing Loan almost vanishes. Kinda explains why other Treasures have fared so poorly; Donald was careful that alternate Treasure didnít devalue base Treasure too much, but then the meta shifted away from Treasure anyways and some of the early alternate Treasures are a tough sell. Contraband and Cache are fun ďbargain Gold,Ē but Gold is sometimes hard to take over another $5 Action, so they end up being ďGold at market price but with a penalty.Ē

Cards that rely on Gold or compete with it didnít fare well either. Compare the high opportunity cost of Mint, Explorer, Mandarin or Harvest with cards like Specialist, Kiln, or Legionary. You used to have to do a lot of work to earn a free Gold or +$3; now it comes packaged with bonuses/other options rather than handicaps. Heck, Legionary actually incentivizes you to buy Gold despite also being a Gold.
Title: Re: Prosperity 2E
Post by: Holger on May 07, 2022, 04:13:02 am
Absolutely. There's only 2 reasons things should ever be considered for removal. The card is so weak that it just never gets bought by anyone other than complete beginners, and those beginners end up losing because they bought the card. Or the card has an issue of being too confusing or long to resolve in which case it's replaced with a better version of the same thing.
There's also "this card dominates in an unfun way when it's present", but Prosperity doesn't really suffer from that - King's Court and Goons may be dominant cards, but they make for interesting deck-building decisions.

Well, Goons can be somewhat unfun if one player gets attacked with it before being able to buy a copy themself.

But I agree with GendoIkari and Imrahil3 that cards should only be removed if they're really bad or unfun. I really can't see 9 current Prosperity cards fulfilling this. But maybe Prosperity gets new cards by increasing the total number of cards, without removing old ones, or removing fewer than are added? After all, the blurb posted above doesn't talk about removing cards, and newer "big" expansions tend to have more than 300 cards in total...
Title: Re: Prosperity 2E
Post by: spineflu on May 07, 2022, 08:13:33 am
I can't begin to imagine a Dominion in which King's Court has been removed.
i can. the card was always real good, but as the general strength level of the general action card increased, so too did the comparative strength of a/several KCs. The comparative strength of a KC now eclipses the "interesting decision of whether to scoop that or a try to speedrun provinces while your opponent does KCs", and replacing it with something that comes with a Snow Condition (ignoring amy +whatevers) or other limitation puts it back on a more equal footing that preserves the original race condition. It's a centralizing, ignore-at-your-own-peril card.
Title: Re: Prosperity 2E
Post by: Holger on May 07, 2022, 09:56:19 am
I can't begin to imagine a Dominion in which King's Court has been removed.
i can. the card was always real good, but as the general strength level of the general action card increased, so too did the comparative strength of a/several KCs. The comparative strength of a KC now eclipses the "interesting decision of whether to scoop that or a try to speedrun provinces while your opponent does KCs", and replacing it with something that comes with a Snow Condition (ignoring amy +whatevers) or other limitation puts it back on a more equal footing that preserves the original race condition. It's a centralizing, ignore-at-your-own-peril card.

I think a reasonable but simple nerf could be to just forbid KC to play another copy of itself. This would prevent stacking KC's, which is insanely stronger than e.g. stacking Throne Rooms (playing TR on TR only gives you + 1 Action compared with playing the 2 TR's separately, it doesn't increase the number of other Action cards you can play with it like KC-KC does).
Title: Re: Prosperity 2E
Post by: segura on May 07, 2022, 11:46:26 am
While KC is crazy strong, it leads to fun play. The reason for that is perhaps it being a combo card.
Goons on the other hand is, at least to me, no fun. Is it due to the Attack or it not being a combo card? No idea, it is just less fun than KC.
Title: Re: Prosperity 2E
Post by: brokoli on May 07, 2022, 04:28:35 pm
I really don't see how 9 cards could be removed. Of course there are lot of weak cards in Prosperity but the fact that they are weak doesn't make them uninteresting.
Title: Re: Prosperity 2E
Post by: Erick648 on May 07, 2022, 04:34:46 pm
I can't begin to imagine a Dominion in which King's Court has been removed.

Emperor's Palace
$10 Action
You may play an Action card from your hand four times.
Fancy Drawing Room
$1 Action
You may play an Action card from your hand.
Title: Re: Prosperity 2E
Post by: silverspawn on May 07, 2022, 04:44:50 pm
combos with way of the mouse
Title: Re: Prosperity 2E
Post by: Oyvind on May 08, 2022, 03:55:57 am
I just want to explain what I meant. I donít wish for the nine cards I mentioned to be removed, but it seems like several people believe that. I just stated which nine cards I think would be removed, assuming, hopefully erroneously, that the number of cards would remain at 300. I like Holgerís idea to just include the nine new cards without subtracting any existing ones. Iím crossing my fingers for that.
Title: Re: Prosperity 2E
Post by: Imrahil3 on May 08, 2022, 09:30:46 am
Oh, Iím sorry man, I didnít mean to call out anyone in particular. I just meant that I donít like people saying ďFinally! We can get rid off X terrible card,Ē and then itís something fun and useful that just happens to not always be the best card for optimal play.

I donít have any issues with guessing whatís gonna go or being excited for new cards
Title: Re: Prosperity 2E
Post by: Awaclus on May 08, 2022, 09:45:00 am
I don't think it's too unlikely the expansion is just getting bigger you might even say that it's expanding... you might even say that it's Expanding, based on what we know about Seaside 2E.
Title: Re: Prosperity 2E
Post by: Donald X. on May 08, 2022, 01:35:02 pm
Prosperity 2E has 300 cards, like Prosperity 1E.
Title: Re: Prosperity 2E
Post by: JW on May 09, 2022, 03:20:42 pm
The first eight cards that will be cut seem reasonably clear to me, most of which are typically quite weak: Loan, Trade Route, Talisman, Contraband, Counting House, Mountebank, Royal Seal, and Venture.

Among the three most powerful cards in the set, only Mountebank seems likely to go. The other two, Goons and Kingís Court, tend to make for interesting games even if they are dominant. Loan is fine power level wise but it can feel bad such as when it hits a treasure you wanted to draw instead.

I think Mint is a likely ninth card that gets cut: even though it makes for interesting strategy, there are few other cards that can destroy your whole deck with a single buy if you are not careful, and sometimes drawing a five copper hand early (but usually not in the opening) is a huge advantage with Mint.

Donald has not used earlier second editions to do errata that completely changes how a card plays in typical situations (e.g., the Masquerade errata stopped the "pin" but had little other impact). So, I do not expect to see that happen here either.
Title: Re: Prosperity 2E
Post by: grrgrrgrr on May 09, 2022, 06:14:15 pm
9 cards is pretty excessive and just like with Seaside, the cuts also include cards that aren't turning the games into 9-card kingdoms 99.99% of the time. Not sure how I feel about this, but we will see when the 2nd editions actually release.

Anyway, my predictions from most likely to least likely. The first three are cards that we can miss easily without replacements that replicate those cards. For the rest, removing seems a pretty bold move.
1. Royal Seal: This is just a boring card that is extremely unreliable at being anything more than just a $5 costing Silver. While this was always weak, Way of the Seal and Bauble make this thing look incredibly stupid.
2. Trade Route: A very poor trasher, very poor source of +Buy, and Forager does whatever this card tries to achieve insurmountably better. It also doesn't help that this card is super wordy and requires additional tokens.
3. Contraband: This card has a penalty that makes this card borderline unusable in pretty much any board, unless your opponent is really missing your strategy. As a source of +Buy, it is also pretty much the worst as its penalty completely negates the ability to bypass the dreaded one-province-per-turn limit. (and generally, a $5 gold just isn't interesting these days)
4. Venture: This is a card that used to be regarded quite fondly, but just has no place anymore these days. It is completely useless with draw, and it is also pretty bad without Copper trashing. And even outsite of these cases, it is still rather unimpressive. And of course, comparing favorably to Adventurer no longer counts.
5. Loan: This card isn't too bad, but becomes pretty luck based as soon as a second Treasure that you don't wanna get rid of enters your deck. And what does this trasher bring on table that other trashers don't? It is also the card that Donald X originally considered as "the only dud of Prosperity".
6. Hoard: It is a fine card, albeit on the uninteresting side. The real kicker against this card is that it is almost exclusively useable in Province games; a really bad feat for a Prosperity card.
7. Counting House: It is part of the utterly obscene combo called Counting House + Travelling Fair, which some consider to be the strongest synergy within the entirety of Dominion. But does it ever get used outside of that scenario? Prior to Adventures, the answer is yes (but very sparsely), and it was satisfying to massacre unsuspecting players with this, but nowadays it really doesn't seem to be.
8. Goons: This card is a pretty frustrating to play against, as the handsize attack causes makes it difficult to come back when falling behind. Another thing to consider is that fact that Donald X wants to retcon the use of "While this is in play" out of existence. While the solution is trivial in most cases, Goons's in-play effect really shouldn't be Throneable.
9. Mountebank: I've never really had much problems with this card. But it is not very Prosperity-y and if there is another Curser in store for 2E, then this one should go. And yes, handing out 2 junk cards on a singular play is excessive, as is being able to junk even when the Curse pile is depleted.
Title: Re: Prosperity 2E
Post by: ClouduHieh on May 12, 2022, 07:05:58 am
Well if goons gets replaced Iíll just throw out the entire prosperity expansion, itís the only card I like from that expansion. Okay Iím going overboard, I do like a lot of cards in the expansion. But goons is in my top 10 most favorite dominion cards. And honestly Iím just not big on the big money strategy. I have no problems getting 24$ and several buys in the dark ages expansion on its own and itís much more fun to combo your way from the ground up then it is throwing a couple platinums and a bank instead. Personally these are the cards I want to see replaced.

1. Trade route - At first I liked it, probably because of the mat.  but now I donít.

2. Mint- Iíve always hated this card. Most hated card. Besides there are other expansions that do this without the buy penalty.

3. Royal seal - thereís several cards like this but better. And Iím not fond of it.

4. Venture - reminds me of adventurer from the base game, and they of course removed that a long time ago, itís time for this one to join its predecessor. This is my second most hated card.

5. Forge- I just think this card is so-so

I guess I could also see them replacing these as well but I would hate to see them go.

6. Loan - I absolutely hated this at first, but now I do enjoy playing with it.

7. Counting house - itís a weaker copper strategy to be sure. But I can see them replacing since it doesnít work with most of the synergies in this expansion. It only works with forge, itís only real synergy. I guess itís okay with the bank, but then so are most of the other cards.

8. Talisman - itís a good one. But thereís lots of other cards like this so itís nothing special. Not that they can all be special.

9. Contraband - I really like this itís an interactive card. No attack involved. But it can really hinder you if play this several times in the same turn. And so you likely wonít empty this pile out.
Title: Re: Prosperity 2E
Post by: faust on May 12, 2022, 09:05:45 am
I'll be sad to see Contraband go, that is a fun piece of interaction. It should probably have gone into a set that had Events though, the presence of Events makes Contraband much more usable.
Title: Re: Prosperity 2E
Post by: allanfieldhouse on May 12, 2022, 01:40:31 pm
The obvious Loan/Venture solution is to just combine the two cards. Their wording is already almost identical. Just switch it to "discard, trash or play it".

This fixes basically all the issues brought up about Loan. And it can make Venture useful even in a treasureless engine.
Title: Re: Prosperity 2E
Post by: segura on May 12, 2022, 02:20:21 pm
The obvious Loan/Venture solution is to just combine the two cards. Their wording is already almost identical. Just switch it to "discard, trash or play it".

This fixes basically all the issues brought up about Loan. And it can make Venture useful even in a treasureless engine.
Not a fan. The appeal of Loan is related to its price. At $5 it sucks compared to other trashers.
Title: Re: Prosperity 2E
Post by: Awaclus on May 12, 2022, 03:31:55 pm
2. Mint- Iíve always hated this card. Most hated card. Besides there are other expansions that do this without the buy penalty.

The below-the-line thing is not a penalty, it's the effect. You get to trash five Coppers for $5, that's a very strong effect. The penalty is that the effect comes with a junk card you have to take as well (the Mint).
Title: Re: Prosperity 2E
Post by: ClouduHieh on May 13, 2022, 01:23:37 am
Mint isnít just about the trashing. I also am not fond of the action too. Even without the trashing effect I still wouldnít bother playing it very often, maybe one per game, however the trashing effect to gain completely lowers its usefulness. And itís not like you would buy it using golds or playing golds now would you? No because itís not worth it. However if the action gave you something useful like victory tokens or it was worth victory points then yeah Iíll trash any treasures to obtain it. But for an action that I consider mediocre and then the trashing effect to is like adding poison to a plain old loaf of bread. Like I said there are other cards similar to mint but without that trashing effect. In fact thereís one in menagerie thatís ten times better. Kiln. It has the same cost. But it gives you 2$ and you can gain a copy of any card the next time you play it. And wait it doesnít have that awful trashing effect either.  And if you really like the trashing effect so much the count from dark ages can trash with basically the same effect, and you can even mitigate what you do as well as choose another option, plus itís also way more rewarding trashing cards in the dark ages expansion.

So the way I see it. Both kiln and count make mint obsolete! They both do it 10 times better. They both cost the same and they both give better rewards! I absolutely love the count and as for kiln itís a good card. But itís time for mint to join the removed cards list. If they are serious about making changes to prosperity, then mint needs to go, and make way for newer ideas kind of like they did with the Allies and menagerie expansions. New ideas galore!

My most hated card in existence!
Title: Re: Prosperity 2E
Post by: GendoIkari on May 13, 2022, 01:46:09 am
Mint isnít just about the trashing. I also am not fond of the action too. Even without the trashing effect I still wouldnít bother playing it very often, maybe one per game, however the trashing effect to gain completely lowers its usefulness. And itís not like you would buy it using golds or playing golds now would you? No because itís not worth it. However if the action gave you something useful like victory tokens or it was worth victory points then yeah Iíll trash any treasures to obtain it. But for an action that I consider mediocre and then the trashing effect to is like adding poison to a plain old loaf of bread. Like I said there are other cards similar to mint but without that trashing effect. In fact thereís one in menagerie thatís ten times better. Kiln. It has the same cost. But it gives you 2$ and you can gain a copy of any card the next time you play it. And wait it doesnít have that awful trashing effect either.  And if you really like the trashing effect so much the count from dark ages can trash with basically the same effect, and you can even mitigate what you do as well as choose another option, plus itís also way more rewarding trashing cards in the dark ages expansion.

So the way I see it. Both kiln and count make mint obsolete! They both do it 10 times better. They both cost the same and they both give better rewards! I absolutely love the count and as for kiln itís a good card. But itís time for mint to join the removed cards list. If they are serious about making changes to prosperity, then mint needs to go, and make way for newer ideas kind of like they did with the Allies and menagerie expansions. New ideas galore!

My most hated card in existence!

Are you under the impression that Chapel is a weak card unless the board happens to have a curser? You seem to be missing the whole point of what Awaclus said... trashing 5 Coppers at once is a very strong effect. Even if Mint did nothing at all when you played it, it would still be a good buy a lot of the time. Yes the on-play effect is bad, but it's just a tiny bonus to what is already a great on-buy effect. It's like saying Border Village is weak because Village already gives you the same effect for only (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/3/32/Coin3.png/16px-Coin3.png) instead of (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/6/6f/Coin6.png/16px-Coin6.png), and that the on-gain effect of Border Village just makes it worse because now you're forced to take another card and maybe you didn't want another card.
Title: Re: Prosperity 2E
Post by: segura on May 13, 2022, 01:50:45 am
The play effect of Mint is situational but not weak. You often need payload after getting rid of those Coppers and besides Kiln and Treasurer, Mint is the only non-Remodel Platinum gainer in the game.
Title: Re: Prosperity 2E
Post by: faust on May 13, 2022, 02:18:53 am
The play effect of Mint is situational but not weak. You often need payload after getting rid of those Coppers and besides Kiln and Treasurer, Mint is the only non-Remodel Platinum gainer in the game.
*cough* Tragic Hero *cough*
Title: Re: Prosperity 2E
Post by: Awaclus on May 13, 2022, 07:19:18 am
Even if Mint did nothing at all when you played it, it would still be a good buy a lot of the time.

That is honestly not even too far from being the case as it is. It happens that you buy Mint when you don't have the +actions to play it, and the effect is not worth adding the +actions, so you'll never play it. It also happens that you buy it when you don't have any Treasures that are better than nothing, and there's better stuff to do than to buy such Treasures, and again you'll never play the Mint. It also happens that you buy it when you potentially could use it for a small benefit like gaining a Gold, but before your draws line up that way, the Mint lines up with another trasher and you'd rather just take that opportunity to get rid of the Mint, so you do, and you never play it.

Just gaining a Gold is a very disappointing way to spend an action, and for Mint to do that, you first have to have a Gold which is a very disappointing way to spend $6 and a buy, and it needs to line up. If you do happen to have the extra action and the Gold in your hand, getting the free Gold is a nice small bonus, or even getting a Silver can sometimes be better than nothing, but generally you should be trying to do something better than that, even when you get the Mint for free alongside your underpriced two-and-a-half Bonfires.
Title: Re: Prosperity 2E
Post by: kieranmillar on May 13, 2022, 07:29:12 am
7. Counting house - itís a weaker copper strategy to be sure. But I can see them replacing since it doesnít work with most of the synergies in this expansion. It only works with forge, itís only real synergy. I guess itís okay with the bank, but then so are most of the other cards.
I am curious, what's the Counting House + Forge synergy?
Title: Re: Prosperity 2E
Post by: GendoIkari on May 13, 2022, 10:05:49 am
7. Counting house - itís a weaker copper strategy to be sure. But I can see them replacing since it doesnít work with most of the synergies in this expansion. It only works with forge, itís only real synergy. I guess itís okay with the bank, but then so are most of the other cards.
I am curious, what's the Counting House + Forge synergy?

Counting House can get a bunch of Coppers into your hand at once, so that Forge can trash them all at once.
Title: Re: Prosperity 2E
Post by: spineflu on May 13, 2022, 10:15:01 am
The play effect of Mint is situational but not weak. You often need payload after getting rid of those Coppers and besides Kiln and Treasurer, Mint is the only non-Remodel Platinum gainer in the game.
*cough* Tragic Hero *cough*
also regular hero
Title: Re: Prosperity 2E
Post by: Awaclus on May 13, 2022, 10:16:46 am
7. Counting house - itís a weaker copper strategy to be sure. But I can see them replacing since it doesnít work with most of the synergies in this expansion. It only works with forge, itís only real synergy. I guess itís okay with the bank, but then so are most of the other cards.
I am curious, what's the Counting House + Forge synergy?

Counting House can get a bunch of Coppers into your hand at once, so that Forge can trash them all at once.

You could just buy a Mint.
Title: Re: Prosperity 2E
Post by: LastFootnote on May 13, 2022, 11:38:26 am
If it weren't so far from April 1st, I'd suspect ClouduHieh was trolling us. Honestly I'm still not sure that isn't the case.
Title: Re: Prosperity 2E
Post by: chipperMDW on May 13, 2022, 12:00:00 pm
If it weren't so far from April 1st, I'd suspect ClouduHieh was trolling us. Honestly I'm still not sure that isn't the case.

I'm pretty sure he's serious. Given his thoughts a few years ago, it's not surprising he wouldn't be a fan of Mint for its on-buy ability:
Sure a lot of people like to get rid of there starting cards. Iím not one of them.
Title: Re: Prosperity 2E
Post by: GendoIkari on May 13, 2022, 12:12:09 pm
If it weren't so far from April 1st, I'd suspect ClouduHieh was trolling us. Honestly I'm still not sure that isn't the case.

I'm pretty sure he's serious. Given his thoughts a few years ago, it's not surprising he wouldn't be a fan of Mint for its on-buy ability:
Sure a lot of people like to get rid of there starting cards. Iím not one of them.

Then what IS the Counting House + Forge synergy??

*Edit* Oh, I know! You play Forge, trashing nothing. This lets you gain a card costing exactly (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/5/5d/Coin0.png/16px-Coin0.png), so you can gain a Copper, which makes your Counting House better!
Title: Re: Prosperity 2E
Post by: GendoIkari on May 13, 2022, 12:52:01 pm
Oh man I did not remember that thread at all, even though I participated in it quite a bit. Having some serious Gunpowder flashbacks.
Title: Re: Prosperity 2E
Post by: mxdata on May 16, 2022, 10:14:46 am
The play effect of Mint is situational but not weak. You often need payload after getting rid of those Coppers and besides Kiln and Treasurer, Mint is the only non-Remodel Platinum gainer in the game.
*cough* Tragic Hero *cough*

Also Specialist
Title: Re: Prosperity 2E
Post by: Gubump on May 19, 2022, 11:55:47 pm
If it weren't so far from April 1st, I'd suspect ClouduHieh was trolling us. Honestly I'm still not sure that isn't the case.

I'm pretty sure he's serious. Given his thoughts a few years ago, it's not surprising he wouldn't be a fan of Mint for its on-buy ability:
Sure a lot of people like to get rid of there starting cards. Iím not one of them.

He also tried to make a card to replace Mint in the "design a card for a hypothetical 2E expansion" WDC.
Title: Re: Prosperity 2E
Post by: chipperMDW on May 20, 2022, 12:37:01 am
I wonder whether 2E will change the "recommended" method for deciding whether to use Platinum/Colony.
Title: Re: Prosperity 2E
Post by: Sparafucile on May 20, 2022, 09:26:39 am
The play effect of Mint is situational but not weak. You often need payload after getting rid of those Coppers and besides Kiln and Treasurer, Mint is the only non-Remodel Platinum gainer in the game.
*cough* Tragic Hero *cough*

Also Specialist

And Hero, Haggler, horn of plenty, Camel, ( Mine, taxman as specialized treasure upgraders), forge.   (And not counting all the remodel/upgrade/displace variants)
Title: Re: Prosperity 2E
Post by: Imrahil3 on May 20, 2022, 11:14:01 am
The play effect of Mint is situational but not weak. You often need payload after getting rid of those Coppers and besides Kiln and Treasurer, Mint is the only non-Remodel Platinum gainer in the game.
*cough* Tragic Hero *cough*

Also Specialist

And Hero, Haggler, horn of plenty, Camel, ( Mine, taxman as specialized treasure upgraders), forge.   (And not counting all the remodel/upgrade/displace variants)
All technically correct, but most of those are a lot more work than buying Mint and hitting $9 once.
Title: Re: Prosperity 2E
Post by: Gherald on May 20, 2022, 11:37:04 am
Technically Camel doesn't gain anything ;D

Haggler is probably the best Platinum gainer in general (Hoard-like), since Specialist will usually get used for something else
Title: Re: Prosperity 2E
Post by: GendoIkari on May 20, 2022, 01:14:58 pm
The play effect of Mint is situational but not weak. You often need payload after getting rid of those Coppers and besides Kiln and Treasurer, Mint is the only non-Remodel Platinum gainer in the game.
*cough* Tragic Hero *cough*

Also Specialist

And Hero, Haggler, horn of plenty, Camel, ( Mine, taxman as specialized treasure upgraders), forge.   (And not counting all the remodel/upgrade/displace variants)

Pretty sure that by "non-Remodel" they meant the entire family of remodel cards, not just Remodel. So that would cover Mine. How does Camel get you a Platinum?
Title: Re: Prosperity 2E
Post by: vidicate on May 20, 2022, 01:56:07 pm
The play effect of Mint is situational but not weak. You often need payload after getting rid of those Coppers and besides Kiln and Treasurer, Mint is the only non-Remodel Platinum gainer in the game.
*cough* Tragic Hero *cough*

Also Specialist

And Hero, Haggler, horn of plenty, Camel, ( Mine, taxman as specialized treasure upgraders), forge.   (And not counting all the remodel/upgrade/displace variants)
But that was the point- gainers (that gain a Platinum) that arenít Remodelers. Everything you said after Camel Train wouldnít count. (PPEdit: ninjaíd by Gendo)

Technically Camel doesn't gain anything ;D

Haggler is probably the best Platinum gainer in general (Hoard-like), since Specialist will usually get used for something else
Well Camel Train is kind of a reverse Mint/Specialist in this regard. One needs you to have a Platinum in hand in the first place, the other just needs you to actually gain one later to enjoy the Exiled one.

All technically correct, but most of those are a lot more work than buying Mint and hitting $9 once.
Of the ďPlatinum gainersĒ listed so far I would rate their ease of gaining/acquiring the Plat in this order:
Hero, Tragic Hero, Haggler, Horn of Plenty, Camel Train, Specialist, Mint, Kiln, Treasurer.
Of course, thatís not factoring in the difference in gaining the particular card in the first place; cost, Traveler, etc.
Title: Re: Prosperity 2E
Post by: Imrahil3 on May 20, 2022, 02:06:37 pm
Of the ďPlatinum gainersĒ listed so far I would rate their ease of gaining/acquiring the Plat in this order:
Hero, Tragic Hero, Haggler, Horn of Plenty, Camel Train, Specialist, Mint, Kiln, Treasurer.
Of course, thatís not factoring in the difference in gaining the particular card in the first place; cost, Traveler, etc.
RightÖ so in practice Mint is one of the best.
Title: Re: Prosperity 2E
Post by: GendoIkari on May 20, 2022, 02:36:03 pm
The play effect of Mint is situational but not weak. You often need payload after getting rid of those Coppers and besides Kiln and Treasurer, Mint is the only non-Remodel Platinum gainer in the game.
*cough* Tragic Hero *cough*

Also Specialist

And Hero, Haggler, horn of plenty, Camel, ( Mine, taxman as specialized treasure upgraders), forge.   (And not counting all the remodel/upgrade/displace variants)

Pretty sure that by "non-Remodel" they meant the entire family of remodel cards, not just Remodel. So that would cover Mine. How does Camel get you a Platinum?

Oh you guys mean Camel Train, not Way of the Camel. Autolink shows the Way for all the animal names (except Monkey now), so I thought you meant that at first.
Title: Re: Prosperity 2E
Post by: Gherald on May 20, 2022, 03:11:03 pm
Guys, Tragic Hero is a Remodel variant  ;)
Title: Re: Prosperity 2E
Post by: Awaclus on May 20, 2022, 04:14:45 pm
Guys, Tragic Hero is a Remodel variant  ;)

More like a Swindler variant, it just attacks you instead of the opponent.
Title: Re: Prosperity 2E
Post by: vidicate on May 20, 2022, 04:40:04 pm
Of the ďPlatinum gainersĒ listed so far I would rate their ease of gaining/acquiring the Plat in this order:
Hero, Tragic Hero, Haggler, Horn of Plenty, Camel Train, Specialist, Mint, Kiln, Treasurer.
Of course, thatís not factoring in the difference in gaining the particular card in the first place; cost, Traveler, etc.
RightÖ so in practice Mint is one of the best.
Tragic Hero: buy it - increase your handsize a little on the turn you play it - Bam! Platinum
Haggler: buy it - play it on the same turn you hit enough $ to buy a Colony (no specific other card required to have nor line up with Haggler) - buy a Colony - Bam! Platinum (and Colony in the same buy, woot)
Mint/Kiln - buy it - hit enough to buy a Platinum - play the Mint/Kiln on the turn youíve finally lined it up with the Platinum - Bam! Platinum (but wait, I already had one, and I had to get it the hard wayÖ)

In execution, Mint is very straightforward thoughóalmost as simple as Hero.
Title: Re: Prosperity 2E
Post by: ClouduHieh on May 21, 2022, 04:04:05 pm
So I am a copper strategist, yes I know thatís not really a real strategy. So yes I hate mint because I would rather keep my coppers which is why I like the dark ages expansion so much. And yes Iím not really into big money strategies. For me it gets less strategic in big money strategies while the dark ages work your way up offers lots of synergy, and I just would rather trash my coppers with rats. I absolutely love rats! But I find it boring to trash my coppers with mint, however itís not quite as boring to trash my coppers when I can pull off counting house and forge combo. Cards like mint and chapel get rid of your coppers fast. Which I find boring. But cards that trash coppers slowly or require a combo of cards to pull off is much more fun. Im not saying mint is weak, Iím saying it bores me to death. And as for chapel at least I get to choose what I trash, so yes I like chapel. If the trashing of treasures with mint was an option instead of force I would like it, but then it would be an overpowered card.
Title: Re: Prosperity 2E
Post by: silverspawn on May 21, 2022, 04:07:26 pm
The powerlevel of Mint wouldn't change much if it was optional
Title: Re: Prosperity 2E
Post by: Awaclus on May 21, 2022, 06:25:23 pm
So I am a copper strategist, yes I know thatís not really a real strategy. So yes I hate mint because I would rather keep my coppers which is why I like the dark ages expansion so much. And yes Iím not really into big money strategies.

You're into small money strategies?
Title: Re: Prosperity 2E
Post by: pate on May 21, 2022, 09:59:48 pm
Iím not sure if Iím on to anything here but allies rulebook was likely  made when prosperity2e was already planned.  That said the suggested prosperity games included expand, kc, quarry, rabble, talisman, bank, city, mint, trade route, vault.  I would find it strange that they would make suggested sets include cards they knew they were going to axe from the game within the year.
The seaside 2nd edition suggested sets didnít include any of the axed cards. 
That said I would be surprised if trade route or mint made the cut.
Title: Re: Prosperity 2E
Post by: CaptainTheo on May 23, 2022, 05:45:19 pm
Unlike Seaside I'm struggling to think of how 8 cards can be axed as while a few cards are weak, most of them still feel quite fun. The only ones that I can think of to be obvious axes are:

Perhaps Counting House too, which is admittedly weak but has a cool effect. Also possibly Mountebank as it's just not fun to pick up that much junk, and Seaside axed similarly vicious attacks like Ambassador, Sea Hag and Ghost Ship.

As to other candidates for axing:

Surely not King's Court, which is overly-powerful but fun, or Forge, which is one of the few ways to trash one's entire hand. Or Mint, which can be a nice way of getting rid of lots of Coppers early.
Title: Re: Prosperity 2E
Post by: Imrahil3 on May 23, 2022, 06:41:28 pm
The preponderance of Treasures on everyoneís list suggests to me that the game has shifted toward engines quite a bit since Prosperity. I feel like most of the treasures in Prosperity just need a $1 discount to be viable again.
Title: Re: Prosperity 2E
Post by: 4est on May 23, 2022, 07:52:32 pm
Interesting find on the recommended sets. If it's accurate, I could see Trade Route staying but perhaps with errata to eliminate tokens and mat, using language like ď+$1 per Victory supply pile that isn't full.ď Still weak, but eh, trashing is trashing. I could definitely see Mint and Talisman staying too, both of those cards are fine.

My Prosperity 2E predictions:

*Edit: forgot how the update packs work, most likely 100 cards, which means 9 new cards and probably 9 removals.
Title: Re: Prosperity 2E
Post by: Commodore Chuckles on May 24, 2022, 09:22:27 pm
The preponderance of Treasures on everyoneís list suggests to me that the game has shifted toward engines quite a bit since Prosperity. I feel like most of the treasures in Prosperity just need a $1 discount to be viable again.

I think this has more to do with the fact that a lot of the Prosperity Treasures were weak to begin with - it's been my biggest beef with the set for a long time now. Some Treasures, like Fortune and the new Sunken Treasure, are good engine supplements. Hopefully we'll get some more of those when the second edition comes out.

The two cards I think have definitely gotten worse since they first came out are Hoard and Mint, both because the value of Gold has declined so dramatically.