Dominion Strategy Forum

Dominion => Rules Questions => Topic started by: dz on September 17, 2021, 05:54:20 pm

Title: Coffers Rules Change
Post by: dz on September 17, 2021, 05:54:20 pm
To those of you not in the TGG discord server (the company making the mobile version of Dominion), the rules for Coffers are getting changed, and this change also requires errata to 2 cards.

The change: You can spend Coffers at any time during your turn.

The reason: The original rule was awful and goes against intuition. How often have you bought a card, and then either realized you didn't spend enough Coffers, or you spent too many?

Side effects include being able to use Coffers to power up action-phase Storytellers, and you can immediately use the Coffers that you get from Spices.

Now there are two cards that need errata because of this. The reasons why is an exercise for the reader (or you can just go to the wiki, where I explained why).
-Merchant Guild: It will give Coffers at the end of your buy phase, and is no longer a dividing line ability.
-Patron: Only gives Coffers during an Action phase.

Also in general "while in play" is disappearing for "this turn." You may have noticed this change has already started with the Hermit errata (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20844.msg872610#msg872610) I mentioned months ago.

These changes are already on the TGG client, and it'll come to D.G uh eventually. Probably at the same time that the other endless list of errata comes out.

I'm sure someone is going to be sad that a random combo that-comes-up-1%-of-the-time is going to disappear, but I'm not worried about that, and DXV isn't worried either.
Title: Re: Coffers Rules Change
Post by: spineflu on September 17, 2021, 06:54:31 pm
Is there a reason for Patron being phase-dependent rather than "if you haven't spent a Buy yet"? As the random Venture enjoyer of the board, that enabling combo was pretty nice.

Also kind of a bummer Merchant Guild isn't going to be enabled as a Way. Some good combos with wot Pig and others.
Title: Re: Coffers Rules Change
Post by: dz on September 17, 2021, 07:02:24 pm
Is there a reason for Patron being phase-dependent rather than "if you haven't spent a Buy yet"? 

Remember that the wording needs to take into account that it's possible to reveal your own Patron on an opponent's turn. Also "when you reveal this in an Action phase" is shorter than 'when you reveal this, if you haven't spent a Buy yet this turn."

As the random Venture enjoyer of the board, that enabling combo was pretty nice.

Also kind of a bummer Merchant Guild isn't going to be enabled as a Way. Some good combos with wot Pig and others.

I'm sure someone is going to be sad that a random combo that-comes-up-1%-of-the-time is going to disappear, but I'm not worried about that, and DXV isn't worried either.
Title: Re: Coffers Rules Change
Post by: spineflu on September 17, 2021, 07:05:00 pm
Is there a reason for Patron being phase-dependent rather than "if you haven't spent a Buy yet"? 

Remember that the wording needs to take into account that it's possible to reveal your own Patron on an opponent's turn. Also "when you reveal this in an Action phase" is shorter than 'when you reveal this, if you haven't spent a Buy yet this turn."

Yeah but you aren't spending buys on opponents turns so it always procs then; Also Patron isn't exactly in the Noble Brigand "hurting for text space" category. My way keeps more of the original functionality.
Title: Re: Coffers Rules Change
Post by: spineflu on September 17, 2021, 08:06:35 pm
also: No changes for Spices or Silk Merchant?
Title: Re: Coffers Rules Change
Post by: Donald X. on September 18, 2021, 12:39:52 pm
also: No changes for Spices or Silk Merchant?
No change for those.
Title: Re: Coffers Rules Change
Post by: Jeebus on September 22, 2021, 08:15:24 am
These changes are already on the TGG client

Do you have the card texts for Urchin Hermit, Merchant Guild and Patron? They don't seem to be in the Wiki, and as you note in the old Urchin Hermit post, the wording matters for how they play.
Title: Re: Coffers Rules Change
Post by: GendoIkari on September 22, 2021, 09:24:16 am
Also “if you haven’t spent a buy yet” doesn’t keep the current functionality; in which you could buy a card during your action phase or even during your play-treasures half of your buy phase; and then still spend coffers.

Title: Re: Coffers Rules Change
Post by: Jeebus on September 22, 2021, 10:20:15 am
Also in general "while in play" is disappearing for "this turn." You may have noticed this change has already started with the Hermit errata (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20844.msg872610#msg872610) I mentioned months ago.

I can't find any other card than Urchin Hermit that is "while in play" and "this turn". Are you talking about Way of the Frog? Improve? Treasury and Scheme? Scepter? (And, you or Donald, please post the new card texts.)
Title: Re: Coffers Rules Change
Post by: spineflu on September 22, 2021, 10:51:36 am
Also “if you haven’t spent a buy yet” doesn’t keep the current functionality; in which you could buy a card during your action phase or even during your play-treasures half of your buy phase; and then still spend coffers.

are you referring to like, Black Market? because that doesn't spend a Buy; or are you referring to a Villa/Cavalry style backtracking?
Title: Re: Coffers Rules Change
Post by: dz on September 22, 2021, 10:55:10 am
These changes are already on the TGG client

Do you have the card texts for Urchin, Merchant Guild and Patron? They don't seem to be in the Wiki, and as you note in the old Urchin post, the wording matters for how they play.

I don't recall an Urchin post; you mean Hermit? Donald X. hasn't announced those wordings yet. Most text changes are of course, going to be updated as sets get reprinted.

Patron:
+1 Villager
+2 Coins
---
When you reveal this in an Action phase (using the word "reveal"), +1 Coffers.

Merchant Guild:
+1 Buy
+1 Coin
At the end of your Buy phase, +1 Coffers per card you bought this turn.

Also in general "while in play" is disappearing for "this turn." You may have noticed this change has already started with the Hermit errata (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20844.msg872610#msg872610) I mentioned months ago.

I can't find any other card than Urchin that is "while in play" and "this turn". Are you talking about Way of the Frog? Improve? Treasury and Scheme? Scepter? (And, you or Donald, please post the new card texts.)

I don't understand, how is Urchin (or is that Hermit) special here? And how are Frog/Improve/Treasury/Scheme/Scepter relevant either?

The text changes are more like:

Highway:
+1 Card
+1 Action
This turn, cards cost 1 less.

There are most likely going to be some random side effects (and I don't just mean the interactions with Throne Room and Ways). For example, I think the best Lighthouse wording is to just match Guardian (they currently work differently against Black Cat).

Lighthouse:
+1 Action
+1 Coin
At the start of your next turn, +1 Coin. Until then, when another player plays an Attack card, it doesn't affect you.
Title: Re: Coffers Rules Change
Post by: Jeebus on September 22, 2021, 12:03:46 pm
I don't recall an Urchin post; you mean Hermit? Donald X. hasn't announced those wordings yet. Most text changes are of course, going to be updated as sets get reprinted.

Sorry, I meant Hermit every time I wrote Urchin. :(

You said that these are in the TGG client already, but I guess since it's still in Beta, the card texts could theoretically change again and that's why it's not official yet?

I don't understand, how is Urchin (or is that Hermit) special here? And how are Frog/Improve/Treasury/Scheme/Scepter relevant either?

I misunderstood your phrase '"while in play" is disappearing for "this turn."' I didn't get that "disappearing for" was supposed to mean "replaced by".

So this means that "while in play" will be removed from all cards? Wow. We have these:
Bridge Troll, Goons, Groundskeeper, Haggler, Highway, Hoard, Lighthouse, Merchant Guild, Princess, Quarry, Royal Seal, Sauna, Talisman, Tracker, Urchin

This is certainly not a "change as little as possible" move from Donald! Throne Room + Goons! I wonder why.
Title: Re: Coffers Rules Change
Post by: GendoIkari on September 22, 2021, 12:05:31 pm
Also “if you haven’t spent a buy yet” doesn’t keep the current functionality; in which you could buy a card during your action phase or even during your play-treasures half of your buy phase; and then still spend coffers.

are you referring to like, Black Market? because that doesn't spend a Buy; or are you referring to a Villa/Cavalry style backtracking?

Well both; but I was indeed mixing up “spend a buy” with “buy a card”. I’m not a fan of the former; because all though we all likely know what it means; it’s not a clearly defined term in Dominion as far as I know.
Title: Re: Coffers Rules Change
Post by: Jack Rudd on September 22, 2021, 12:26:27 pm
Also, since the introductions of Events, one can spend a buy without buying a card.
Title: Re: Coffers Rules Change
Post by: spineflu on September 22, 2021, 12:56:07 pm
Also, since the introductions of Events, one can spend a buy without buying a card.
exactly what I was aiming to mitigate with Gamble, Pursue, Scouting Party, etc.
Title: Re: Coffers Rules Change
Post by: Donald X. on September 22, 2021, 01:29:20 pm
You said that these are in the TGG client already, but I guess since it's still in Beta, the card texts could theoretically change again and that's why it's not official yet?
Yes. The TGG program needed the wordings, since it will only ever have the new Coffers rule.

The idea to the Coffers change is to have it work more like people do it irl. It's simpler. The rule was trickier just to deal with Merchant Guild; instead Merchant Guild should deal with itself.

So this means that "while in play" will be removed from all cards? Wow. We have these:
Bridge Troll, Goons, Groundskeeper, Haggler, Highway, Hoard, Lighthouse, Merchant Guild, Princess, Quarry, Royal Seal, Sauna, Talisman, Tracker, Urchin

This is certainly not a "change as little as possible" move from Donald! Throne Room + Goons! I wonder why.
Exactly which cards will change and how is still not official; wordings will become official as sets are reprinted, and you will see my exact choices then.

"While in play" is confusing in a way that "this turn" is not. That's what it comes down to.
Title: Re: Coffers Rules Change
Post by: Jeebus on September 23, 2021, 05:10:55 am
"While in play" is confusing in a way that "this turn" is not. That's what it comes down to.

So you're not worried about the change in power level? Goons was already pretty powerful, now it seems that it will be insane whenever there's a Throne Room in the kingdom. Maybe the same can be said about Groundskeeper and some others.
Title: Re: Coffers Rules Change
Post by: Donald X. on September 23, 2021, 11:35:48 am
"While in play" is confusing in a way that "this turn" is not. That's what it comes down to.

So you're not worried about the change in power level? Goons was already pretty powerful, now it seems that it will be insane whenever there's a Throne Room in the kingdom. Maybe the same can be said about Groundskeeper and some others.
For a typical card, I'm not worried. For specific cards, details will have to wait for those sets to be reprinted.
Title: Re: Coffers Rules Change
Post by: Holger on September 24, 2021, 09:30:34 am
To those of you not in the TGG discord server (the company making the mobile version of Dominion), the rules for Coffers are getting changed, and this change also requires errata to 2 cards.

The change: You can spend Coffers at any time during your turn.

The reason: The original rule was awful and goes against intuition. How often have you bought a card, and then either realized you didn't spend enough Coffers, or you spent too many?

Side effects include being able to use Coffers to power up action-phase Storytellers, and you can immediately use the Coffers that you get from Spices.

Now there are two cards that need errata because of this. The reasons why is an exercise for the reader (or you can just go to the wiki, where I explained why).
-Merchant Guild: It will give Coffers at the end of your buy phase, and is no longer a dividing line ability.
-Patron: Only gives Coffers during an Action phase.

[...]

You give a good reason for errata-ing Patron in the wiki, but could you expand on the reason for errata-ing Merchant Guild? Its wiki article only says "With the new rules to Coffers, you would be able to spend Coffers that you gained from Merchant Guild during the same Buy phase."

Though this would strengthen MG significantly, I don't see why it would make MG overpowered. If you immediately spend the gained coffers on further buys, MG essentially becomes kind of a Bridge variant: Instead of a cost reduction by $1, you immediately get $1 back for each buy.
While Bridge is a very strong $4 card, MG costs $5, so it should be okay for it to be usable as an "almost immediate" cost reducer.

Spices seems more problematic to me: With the coffers change, it effectively becomes a $3 card that's strictly (and significantly) better than Silver whenever you have 2 coffers (or a spare $2) at the beginning of your buy phase.
Title: Re: Coffers Rules Change
Post by: Donald X. on September 24, 2021, 02:15:04 pm
You give a good reason for errata-ing Patron in the wiki, but could you expand on the reason for errata-ing Merchant Guild? Its wiki article only says "With the new rules to Coffers, you would be able to spend Coffers that you gained from Merchant Guild during the same Buy phase."

Though this would strengthen MG significantly, I don't see why it would make MG overpowered. If you immediately spend the gained coffers on further buys, MG essentially becomes kind of a Bridge variant: Instead of a cost reduction by $1, you immediately get $1 back for each buy.
While Bridge is a very strong $4 card, MG costs $5, so it should be okay for it to be usable as an "almost immediate" cost reducer.

Spices seems more problematic to me: With the coffers change, it effectively becomes a $3 card that's strictly (and significantly) better than Silver whenever you have 2 coffers (or a spare $2) at the beginning of your buy phase.
The fix to Merchant Guild preserves its existing functionality, as well as possible. The intention of the Coffers change was not to make cards turn into different cards; Merchant Guild would still like to be Merchant Guild.

There was no such simple fix possible for Spices. I can e.g. Remodel into Spices, then use the tokens the same turn.

At the same time I consulted experts. The feeling was that Spices was not really so different. The value in the tokens lies in saving them for later.
Title: Re: Coffers Rules Change
Post by: cookiedrugs on September 24, 2021, 02:31:36 pm
To those of you not in the TGG discord server (the company making the mobile version of Dominion), the rules for Coffers are getting changed, and this change also requires errata to 2 cards.

The change: You can spend Coffers at any time during your turn.

The reason: The original rule was awful and goes against intuition. How often have you bought a card, and then either realized you didn't spend enough Coffers, or you spent too many?

Side effects include being able to use Coffers to power up action-phase Storytellers, and you can immediately use the Coffers that you get from Spices.

Now there are two cards that need errata because of this. The reasons why is an exercise for the reader (or you can just go to the wiki, where I explained why).
-Merchant Guild: It will give Coffers at the end of your buy phase, and is no longer a dividing line ability.
-Patron: Only gives Coffers during an Action phase.

[...]

You give a good reason for errata-ing Patron in the wiki, but could you expand on the reason for errata-ing Merchant Guild? Its wiki article only says "With the new rules to Coffers, you would be able to spend Coffers that you gained from Merchant Guild during the same Buy phase."

Though this would strengthen MG significantly, I don't see why it would make MG overpowered. If you immediately spend the gained coffers on further buys, MG essentially becomes kind of a Bridge variant: Instead of a cost reduction by $1, you immediately get $1 back for each buy.
While Bridge is a very strong $4 card, MG costs $5, so it should be okay for it to be usable as an "almost immediate" cost reducer.

Spices seems more problematic to me: With the coffers change, it effectively becomes a $3 card that's strictly (and significantly) better than Silver whenever you have 2 coffers (or a spare $2) at the beginning of your buy phase.

Traveling Fair comes to my mind. If you have three MGs in play, you can alternately buy Traveling Fair and Copper and get additionally a Coffer. After the Copper pile is empty you have +46$.
Title: Re: Coffers Rules Change
Post by: pubby on September 24, 2021, 05:46:17 pm
Is patron better worded as "if it's not your buy phase..."? That way it works more often.

BTW presumably debt needs a rule change too?
Title: Re: Coffers Rules Change
Post by: Holger on September 27, 2021, 06:51:04 am
You give a good reason for errata-ing Patron in the wiki, but could you expand on the reason for errata-ing Merchant Guild? Its wiki article only says "With the new rules to Coffers, you would be able to spend Coffers that you gained from Merchant Guild during the same Buy phase."

Though this would strengthen MG significantly, I don't see why it would make MG overpowered. If you immediately spend the gained coffers on further buys, MG essentially becomes kind of a Bridge variant: Instead of a cost reduction by $1, you immediately get $1 back for each buy.
While Bridge is a very strong $4 card, MG costs $5, so it should be okay for it to be usable as an "almost immediate" cost reducer.

Spices seems more problematic to me: With the coffers change, it effectively becomes a $3 card that's strictly (and significantly) better than Silver whenever you have 2 coffers (or a spare $2) at the beginning of your buy phase.
The fix to Merchant Guild preserves its existing functionality, as well as possible. The intention of the Coffers change was not to make cards turn into different cards; Merchant Guild would still like to be Merchant Guild.

There was no such simple fix possible for Spices. I can e.g. Remodel into Spices, then use the tokens the same turn.

At the same time I consulted experts. The feeling was that Spices was not really so different. The value in the tokens lies in saving them for later.

Thanks for your answer, Donald! Yes, changing the wording to keep the existing functionality of Merchant Guild makes perfect sense.

For Spices, I will of course defer to the experts. (FWIW, I would consider you the topmost Dominion expert yourself  ;) .)

Still, I think it would be possible to change Spices' wording in order to keep its functionality in most cases, by changing it to:
"When you gain this, at the end of this phase, +2 Coffers."

This would still allow you to gain Spices in your Action phase (e.g. with Remodel) and use the Coffers in the same turn's buy phase, but would not allow you to immediately use Coffers received by buying Spices.
The only difference to Spices' current functionality (AFAICS) would be the rare case when you gain Spices during the "play treaures" part of your buy phase (e.g. with Horn of Plenty or with Scepter+Artisan).
Title: Re: Coffers Rules Change
Post by: Donald X. on September 27, 2021, 01:56:12 pm
Still, I think it would be possible to change Spices' wording in order to keep its functionality in most cases, by changing it to:
"When you gain this, at the end of this phase, +2 Coffers."
I considered and rejected that. It maintains previous functionality better, but is some weird text that I don't think I need.
Title: Re: Coffers Rules Change
Post by: Donald X. on September 27, 2021, 01:59:55 pm
Is patron better worded as "if it's not your buy phase..."? That way it works more often.

BTW presumably debt needs a rule change too?
I haven't looked at debt yet. It's worth considering though.

Yes Patron could specifically look for the Buy phase. Almost everything else is the Action phase though.
Title: Re: Coffers Rules Change
Post by: JW on September 28, 2021, 09:52:39 am
-Patron: Only gives Coffers during an Action phase.

To save anyone else a trip to the Wiki: "With the new rules to Coffers, Patron and Pursue would become an infinite combo. Because of this, Patron has received errata to only give Coffers during an Action phase."
Title: Re: Coffers Rules Change
Post by: mxdata on October 05, 2021, 12:48:18 am
-Patron: Only gives Coffers during an Action phase.

To save anyone else a trip to the Wiki: "With the new rules to Coffers, Patron and Pursue would become an infinite combo. Because of this, Patron has received errata to only give Coffers during an Action phase."

Thanks!  I was wondering why it was necessary to restrict Patron to action phase.  It didn't seem like the occasional coffer from things like Venture or Loan was worth the extra clause. I missed the interaction with Pursue
Title: Re: Coffers Rules Change
Post by: Sparafucile on November 26, 2021, 02:37:04 am
Is this errata ever going to make it to the printed version of the cards - I love the game getting fixed - but it makes my IRL copy less true to the game when it happens. 
Title: Re: Coffers Rules Change
Post by: Donald X. on November 26, 2021, 12:22:57 pm
Is this errata ever going to make it to the printed version of the cards - I love the game getting fixed - but it makes my IRL copy less true to the game when it happens. 
It will, I think in 2022 though I'm not sure.
Title: Re: Coffers Rules Change
Post by: pacovf on November 26, 2021, 02:57:45 pm
"While in play" is confusing in a way that "this turn" is not. That's what it comes down to.

I am amused by this. If I remember correctly, "while in play" was introduced because "this turn" was confusing (as in, harder to track). See Highway vs Bridge. Life twists and turns :p
Title: Re: Coffers Rules Change
Post by: mxdata on November 26, 2021, 08:07:22 pm
"While in play" is confusing in a way that "this turn" is not. That's what it comes down to.

I am amused by this. If I remember correctly, "while in play" was introduced because "this turn" was confusing (as in, harder to track). See Highway vs Bridge. Life twists and turns :p

Yeah, honestly, "while in play" seems far easier than "this turn". And more fun with things like Ways
Title: Re: Coffers Rules Change
Post by: Ingix on November 27, 2021, 05:51:06 am
Dominion players (at least the one posting online) seem to like power. So they don't like their Throne Rooms not working with Highways (in the "reduce costs by $2" sense) or Goons (in the "give me 2VP per bought card" sense). And with more expansions coming out, Procession seems to be the odd one out of the "Throne Room"-likes.

Ways are another case where the "artificial" split between a card's abilities becomes visible: Way a Goon, and you still get the "VP per bought card" effect, but without the $2, +Buy and opponent's discard. It's kinda the opposite to Throne Room.

Title: Re: Coffers Rules Change
Post by: scolapasta on December 03, 2021, 10:50:50 am
I played in person Dominion for the first time since the pandemic started this week and already felt the result of this change.

In a game with Guildhall and Fair (both bought previously turns), there was one province left and I only had $7. I was about to just buy a Duchy, when I realized the new rule let me first buy a Copper, get a Coffers, and then use that Coffers that turn to get up to $8. :)
Title: Re: Coffers Rules Change
Post by: Jeebus on January 16, 2022, 05:20:30 am
Before, the two subphases were "get coins" (play Treasures and spend Coffers tokens) and "use coins" (buy things and pay off Debt).
Is paying off Debt also changing?
Title: Re: Coffers Rules Change
Post by: spineflu on January 16, 2022, 11:15:35 am
Is there a reason for Patron being phase-dependent rather than "if you haven't spent a Buy yet"? As the random Venture enjoyer of the board, that enabling combo was pretty nice.

Also kind of a bummer Merchant Guild isn't going to be enabled as a Way. Some good combos with wot Pig and others.

i thought of another noninfinite way for patron to work, including in the buy phase: just have it work when a card (not a landscape or rulebook) tells you to reveal it using the keyword reveal
Title: Re: Coffers Rules Change
Post by: AJD on January 16, 2022, 10:19:47 pm
Before, the two subphases were "get coins" (play Treasures and spend Coffers tokens) and "use coins" (buy things and pay off Debt).

I don't think this is right? You can pay off Debt before playing Treasures if you choose.
Title: Re: Coffers Rules Change
Post by: Ingix on January 17, 2022, 11:48:02 am
Before, the two subphases were "get coins" (play Treasures and spend Coffers tokens) and "use coins" (buy things and pay off Debt).

I don't think this is right? You can pay off Debt before playing Treasures if you choose.

No, this is actually correct, as per the rules in the Empires rulebook:

Quote
A player removes Debt tokens in the player's Buy phase by paying $1 per Debt token to remove it; this is done after playing Treasures, but can be done both before and after buying cards.

dominion.games allows you pay off debt before, which may make it easier to do calculations in your head, but also has very little effect on what can actually happen, because you generally use/spend $ only by buying things.
Title: Re: Coffers Rules Change
Post by: Jeebus on January 17, 2022, 01:10:32 pm
dominion.games allows you pay off debt before, which may make it easier to do calculations in your head, but also has very little effect on what can actually happen, because you generally use/spend $ only by buying things.

I didn't realize that. I guess it would only make a difference if you played Black Market as a Treasure with Capitalism. According to the rules, this would be like playing it normally in your Action phase: you can't pay off debt, so you can't buy anything if you're in debt.*

But there are also ways to play Black Market in the second part of the buy phase, and then you actally can pay off debt. So it doesn't actually sound like a bad idea to allow paying off debt all through the buy phase, just like it works online - to simplify the rules.

*Another rare corner case: You want to play a Storyteller as a Treasure with Capitalism, but you don't want to pay all your $, rather use some of it on debt first.