I'm gonna lurk
/in
/in
Welcome :)
X-1. If someone signs up in the next couple hours I can start N0 tonight!
good old asher9++ oh how i missed you.
/in twice
X-1. If someone signs up in the next couple hours I can start N0 tonight!good old asher9++ oh how i missed you.
/in twice
No no no - I think you’re good. LaLight in’ed twice.
Do we get to pick the color of our spacesuit? I’d like a light purple one, please.Uh, are you claiming Serial Killer? I'm pretty sure that is someone else's job.
also i've never played among us but pretty much know all the memes
Do we get to pick the color of our spacesuit? I’d like a light purple one, please.Uh, are you claiming Serial Killer? I'm pretty sure that is someone else's job.
Jimmmmmmm! Hi friend! How you been? It’s been a minute.
also i've never played among us but pretty much know all the memes
that's sus. ll vented. emergency meeting. ll killed green.
amogus
Hello. I'm liking the back-to-back mafia games. Never played among us and don't know the memes. Is it important to know the flavor?
also i've never played among us but pretty much know all the memes
that's sus. ll vented. emergency meeting. ll killed green.
amogus
I've also never played. But I don't know the memes. This meant nothing to me.
Vote: MiX
Because... it's MiX?
Hello. I'm liking the back-to-back mafia games. Never played among us and don't know the memes. Is it important to know the flavor?
Vote: joth
Oh man, feels good to have town!faust back. Welcome!Don't you think you can buddy me!
Hello. I'm liking the back-to-back mafia games. Never played among us and don't know the memes. Is it important to know the flavor?
Do we get to pick the color of our spacesuit? I’d like a light purple one, please.Uh, are you claiming Serial Killer? I'm pretty sure that is someone else's job.
No, I just care about fashion! Light purple is universally flattering
Vote: Lalight for being the co mod.
I'm gonna leave my vote here for three days until I realize you're not the co mod.
I suspect MiX and faust are voting on me in the hopes that I’ll overreact to a small wagon which is one of my primary scum tells. It’s a good plan, town points all around.So I can't tell... does this mean you are, or are not, scum this round?
I suspect MiX and faust are voting on me in the hopes that I’ll overreact to a small wagon which is one of my primary scum tells. It’s a good plan, town points all around.So I can't tell... does this mean you are, or are not, scum this round?
I suspect MiX and faust are voting on me in the hopes that I’ll overreact to a small wagon which is one of my primary scum tells. It’s a good plan, town points all around.So I can't tell... does this mean you are, or are not, scum this round?
That depends on if I overreact to this wagon. But I’m not planning to… unless I already have? It’s all pretty subjective I suppose.
Vote: iguana
For the same reasons faust did.
Vote: iguana
For the same reasons faust did.
You mean..gkrieg?
Vote: iguanaI mean, those were some good reasons, can't argue with myself.
For the same reasons faust did.
Vote: iguanaI mean, those were some good reasons, can't argue with myself.
For the same reasons faust did.
Vote: iguana
Vote: Lalight for being the co mod.
I'm gonna leave my vote here for three days until I realize you're not the co mod.
MiX analyzes my post in great detail... but misses that I was making a throwback to how I started the last game by voting for the comod for three days straight?
Early wagons are great. We need another.
Vote: Joth
I think I predetermine my first post in every game I play. That's how I ended up voting Lalight last time. So NAI there I guess.
I suspect MiX and faust are voting on me in the hopes that I’ll overreact to a small wagon which is one of my primary scum tells. It’s a good plan, town points all around.So I can't tell... does this mean you are, or are not, scum this round?
That depends on if I overreact to this wagon. But I’m not planning to… unless I already have? It’s all pretty subjective I suppose.
Seems like you have to me. You didn't even answer math's question. So, are you town?
I suspect MiX and faust are voting on me in the hopes that I’ll overreact to a small wagon which is one of my primary scum tells. It’s a good plan, town points all around.So I can't tell... does this mean you are, or are not, scum this round?
That depends on if I overreact to this wagon. But I’m not planning to… unless I already have? It’s all pretty subjective I suppose.
Seems like you have to me. You didn't even answer math's question. So, are you town?
Claiming town is meaningless, but I guess I can do it if you want me to.
Ahem
I am town
You know who we should never, ever fly under the radar? EFHW. She’s got scary mind control skills. (Also, I’m still salty.)
Vote: EFHW
Hi Joth! Hi faust! Hi MiX!
Swowl, what beach?? Also I’m writhing with envy.
I suspect MiX and faust are voting on me in the hopes that I’ll overreact to a small wagon which is one of my primary scum tells. It’s a good plan, town points all around.
Hi Joth! Hi faust! Hi MiX!
Swowl, what beach?? Also I’m writhing with envy.
Cabo San Lucas!
You know who we should never, ever fly under the radar? EFHW. She’s got scary mind control skills. (Also, I’m still salty.)
Vote: EFHW
Considering they were caught for basically no reason D2, I disagree with this statement.
I did not realize all the Joth voters had already unvoted.Did you guys read the mafia QT?
I also don't like voting MiX because of all the tryhard.
Vote: EFHW because of saltiness is something I can get behind.
I did not realize all the Joth voters had already unvoted.Did you guys read the mafia QT?
I also don't like voting MiX because of all the tryhard.
Vote: EFHW because of saltiness is something I can get behind.
math, were you seriously pushing MiX, or was that more RVS?If LL hadn't joined the vote already, I would have already moved on. But since there were 2 votes, I thought I'd see if anyone else was interested in joining too.
I don’t know if I believe in RVS anymore.Ditto?
I did not realize all the Joth voters had already unvoted.
I also don't like voting MiX because of all the tryhard.
Vote: EFHW because of saltiness is something I can get behind.
I was just about ready to vote MiX, and now you leave?I did not realize all the Joth voters had already unvoted.
I also don't like voting MiX because of all the tryhard.
Vote: EFHW because of saltiness is something I can get behind.
You don't like tryhard, but saltiness is okay?
Vote: iguana
Let's try a better wagon here?
Tsk, I don't do RVS. I get offended when people label my votes as RVS, and more so if they label them as meaningless.I suspect MiX and faust are voting on me in the hopes that I’ll overreact to a small wagon which is one of my primary scum tells. It’s a good plan, town points all around.
Too careful an (effectively) first post in response to meaningless RVS votes.
Vote: joth
Hi Everybody!
It's important to also read what is not said.Hi Everybody!
What meaningful scumtells do you infer from this post? Quacks like RVS to me.
Any chance of a translation for those of us unable to read between the line?
math, were you seriously pushing MiX, or was that more RVS?If LL hadn't joined the vote already, I would have already moved on. But since there were 2 votes, I thought I'd see if anyone else was interested in joining too.
So maybe RVS? ButI don’t know if I believe in RVS anymore.Ditto?
Did you guys read the mafia QT?
Hi Everybody!
What meaningful scumtells do you infer from this post? Quacks like RVS to me.
Any chance of a translation for those of us unable to read between the line?
It doesn't say he's town. It doesn't say anything. The capitalized "Everybody" and the exclamation mark says the post wasn't made in 1 second, but at the same time, it begs a second paragraph with random early thoughts which aren't there.
Any chance of a translation for those of us unable to read between the line?
It doesn't say he's town. It doesn't say anything. The capitalized "Everybody" and the exclamation mark says the post wasn't made in 1 second, but at the same time, it begs a second paragraph with random early thoughts which aren't there.
If you must know it was a very oblique Simpson’s reference but nobody chimed in with “Hi, Doctor Nick” so there you go.
Hi Everybody!
What meaningful scumtells do you infer from this post? Quacks like RVS to me.
Where’s the “V”?
Hi Everybody!
What meaningful scumtells do you infer from this post? Quacks like RVS to me.
Where’s the “V”?
I was talking to faust. This was your only post before he voted for you without explanation.
I’m trying something new. Which in itself should probably suggest town for reasons I’m not going to spell out.
Let’sAnd that's scummy why?
Vote: mathdude
Dude seems a little too eager to have wagons.
Let’sAnd that's scummy why?
Vote: mathdude
Dude seems a little too eager to have wagons.
You don't like tryhard, but saltiness is okay?
Vote: iguana
Let's try a better wagon here?
I think Westworld was the last time I won as scum: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20403.0
I think Westworld was the last time I won as scum: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20403.0
Thanks! I now also have confirmation that you read 200 word long posts.
I think Westworld was the last time I won as scum: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20403.0
Thanks! I now also have confirmation that you read 200 word long posts.
I try to read everything. And sometimes I even re-read things.
Let’sAnd that's scummy why?
Vote: mathdude
Dude seems a little too eager to have wagons.
Town wants to exile scum. Scum just wants to exile.
Oh man, feels good to have town!faust back. Welcome!
I think Westworld was the last time I won as scum: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20403.0
Thanks! I now also have confirmation that you read 200 word long posts.
I try to read everything. And sometimes I even re-read things.
Maybe you should reread that game you linked. I just took a look and you said you won but you lost lol
Oh man, feels good to have town!faust back. Welcome!
this is the case: MiX can only know faust is town for one reason. He's scum.
But what does that have to do with wanting wagons? Having wagons is the best way of catching scum.Let’sAnd that's scummy why?
Vote: mathdude
Dude seems a little too eager to have wagons.
Town wants to exile scum. Scum just wants to exile.
But what does that have to do with wanting wagons? Having wagons is the best way of catching scum.Let’sAnd that's scummy why?
Vote: mathdude
Dude seems a little too eager to have wagons.
Town wants to exile scum. Scum just wants to exile.
Oh man, feels good to have town!faust back. Welcome!
this is the case: MiX can only know faust is town for one reason. He's scum.
If 3 posts with less than 50 words between them are enough to get a solid read on me then I definitely need to put some serious work into my scum game.Oh man, feels good to have town!faust back. Welcome!
this is the case: MiX can only know faust is town for one reason. He's scum.
Last game was probably the first where I scumread faust while I was alive. I think I finally have a good read on him, and if so he's town here. I'm just not feeling unease when looking at his posts.
I’m trying something new. Which in itself should probably suggest town for reasons I’m not going to spell out.
If 3 posts with less than 50 words between them are enough to get a solid read on me then I definitely need to put some serious work into my scum game.Oh man, feels good to have town!faust back. Welcome!
this is the case: MiX can only know faust is town for one reason. He's scum.
Last game was probably the first where I scumread faust while I was alive. I think I finally have a good read on him, and if so he's town here. I'm just not feeling unease when looking at his posts.
I’m trying something new. Which in itself should probably suggest town for reasons I’m not going to spell out.
New things are fun, let's not exile you D1
I think Westworld was the last time I won as scum: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20403.0
Thanks! I now also have confirmation that you read 200 word long posts.
I try to read everything. And sometimes I even re-read things.
Maybe you should reread that game you linked. I just took a look and you said you won but you lost lol
But what does that have to do with wanting wagons? Having wagons is the best way of catching scum.Let’sAnd that's scummy why?
Vote: mathdude
Dude seems a little too eager to have wagons.
Town wants to exile scum. Scum just wants to exile.
I think Westworld was the last time I won as scum: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20403.0
Thanks! I now also have confirmation that you read 200 word long posts.
I try to read everything. And sometimes I even re-read things.
Maybe you should reread that game you linked. I just took a look and you said you won but you lost lol
Oh whoops. I also lost Memento as scum recently. I'll keep digging for a real win.
I’m trying something new. Which in itself should probably suggest town for reasons I’m not going to spell out.
New things are fun, let's not exile you D1
MiX is scum but it's not the exile we want right now.
Vote: Jimmmmm
MiX is scum but it's not the exile we want right now.
But what does that have to do with wanting wagons? Having wagons is the best way of catching scum.Let’sAnd that's scummy why?
Vote: mathdude
Dude seems a little too eager to have wagons.
Town wants to exile scum. Scum just wants to exile.
Wagons lead to wagon analysis which is good. Having wagons forces people to express opinions on the people that are wagoned when they might otherwise prefer to ignore them. It also forces the player that the wagon is on to engage, which also provides useful interactions.But what does that have to do with wanting wagons? Having wagons is the best way of catching scum.Let’sAnd that's scummy why?
Vote: mathdude
Dude seems a little too eager to have wagons.
Town wants to exile scum. Scum just wants to exile.
Say more about that.
If I tell you we'd have to kill him.MiX is scum but it's not the exile we want right now.
why not?
I hate that FDS meta makes it towny to do a thing I consider to be the most scummy (fishing around for a “viable” wagon rather than properly scum hunting).
I actually believe it’s possible to productively scumhunt without forcing a bunch of claims and giving scum cover to pull off a town exile, which is what wagons for wagons’ sake usually accomplishes. But I guess we can agree to disagree.
If I tell you we'd have to kill him.MiX is scum but it's not the exile we want right now.
why not?
Regarding claims though... with the setup in this game, won't scum just claim VT most of the time? Or maybe counterclaim something near XYLO? So forcing out claims won't work as well as RMM games.I do not think discussing what sucm would and would not claim is a useful topic of discussion. Quite the opposite.
so anyway faust is town & Didds is town & MiX is ??? but he's being pleasant and helpful.Wait a minute - are you salty too?
idk, nobody's pinging me overmuch, which makes sense because none of you are terrible at this game.
Vote: EFHW
I feel better and better about my EFHW vote.
Is there anything there that you'd like to be known? It matters for this game for your interaction with faust.No, just offering evidence for not having super powers.
Because there can't be anything in the current game that is scummy.so anyway faust is town & Didds is town & MiX is ??? but he's being pleasant and helpful.Wait a minute - are you salty too?
idk, nobody's pinging me overmuch, which makes sense because none of you are terrible at this game.
Vote: EFHW
Because there can't be anything in the current game that is scummy.so anyway faust is town & Didds is town & MiX is ??? but he's being pleasant and helpful.Wait a minute - are you salty too?
idk, nobody's pinging me overmuch, which makes sense because none of you are terrible at this game.
Vote: EFHW
math, were you seriously pushing MiX, or was that more RVS?If LL hadn't joined the vote already, I would have already moved on. But since there were 2 votes, I thought I'd see if anyone else was interested in joining too.
So maybe RVS? ButI don’t know if I believe in RVS anymore.Ditto?
Come on people. MiX is a good wagon.
. By this do you mean that WCD frequently scum reads you early on?I feel better and better about my EFHW vote.
I think you have this on speed dial. I used to scum read it. Now I think it's NAI.
. By this do you mean that WCD frequently scum reads you early on?I feel better and better about my EFHW vote.
I think you have this on speed dial. I used to scum read it. Now I think it's NAI.
Because there can't be anything in the current game that is scummy.so anyway faust is town & Didds is town & MiX is ??? but he's being pleasant and helpful.Wait a minute - are you salty too?
idk, nobody's pinging me overmuch, which makes sense because none of you are terrible at this game.
Vote: EFHW
This was true before, but not now: what do you think about math's answer to your question?
Also I think it's obvious joth voted you because you were a wagon.
Also I think it's obvious joth voted you because you were a wagon.
lol. I voted EFHW because of a combo of trusting my town reads and PoE.
I can't tell if this is a joke or not.
Also I think it's obvious joth voted you because you were a wagon.
lol. I voted EFHW because of a combo of trusting my town reads and PoE.
I can't tell if this is a joke or not.
I feel like this game has a whole lot of "[player] is [alignment]" with very few reasons provided, and I'm not sure what to do with that.
Enough digression/regression regarding the last game. How shall we get out of RVS?
math, were you seriously pushing MiX, or was that more RVS?
@EFHW, obviously you're not voting. Any scum reads though?
I feel like this game has a whole lot of "[player] is [alignment]" with very few reasons provided, and I'm not sure what to do with that.
Didds, have a cookie.
Vote: EFHW
Ok I know I just said Didds was town, but quick gut check: does town Didds push this hard this early? I feel like Didds isn’t usually quite this confident or assertive in her Day 1 reads.
Responding to EFHW….
It is true that I scum read EFHW often. She is hard for me to read, no question. I find her cagey and super sharp, but for me the difference between scum!EFHW and town!EFHW is the quality of her questions. When she’s town, the questions are smart and incisive. When she is scum the questions don’t do much or reveal anything.
Thus far in this game, I find her questions more like the latter than the former. It’s early in the day so this could change, obvi, but since yesterday her questions have not been probing, and today she has been defensive about a tiny wagon.
The post was the scummiest to me:Enough digression/regression regarding the last game. How shall we get out of RVS?
math, were you seriously pushing MiX, or was that more RVS?
The assumption that all the votes thus far were RVS has been discussed by faust and others who don’t think about their votes as random. So, the first assumption is flawed. And then her question isn’t incisive or probing.
It’s just seems like EFHW-lite, to me.
I feel like this game has a whole lot of "[player] is [alignment]" with very few reasons provided, and I'm not sure what to do with that.
Ok, Jimmmmm is scum because he's not engaging much. And then he does exactly what he's calling out for people not to do.Didds, have a cookie.
Vote: EFHW
No explanation? I'm not sure what to do with that. Oh, how about
Vote: Jimmmmm?
math, were you seriously pushing MiX, or was that more RVS?If LL hadn't joined the vote already, I would have already moved on. But since there were 2 votes, I thought I'd see if anyone else was interested in joining too.
So maybe RVS? ButI don’t know if I believe in RVS anymore.Ditto?
MiX wanted my response to this. I don't play this way, but I know some people do. Meaning being influenced by existing wagons in placing a vote. Maybe that's why joth just voted me. But given that math exhorted others to vote MiX, I'd say this is not a satisfactory answer. I don't see how it can be RVS since he had reasons. Not random.
EFHW, This is the one that felt defensive to memath, were you seriously pushing MiX, or was that more RVS?If LL hadn't joined the vote already, I would have already moved on. But since there were 2 votes, I thought I'd see if anyone else was interested in joining too.
So maybe RVS? ButI don’t know if I believe in RVS anymore.Ditto?
MiX wanted my response to this. I don't play this way, but I know some people do. Meaning being influenced by existing wagons in placing a vote. Maybe that's why joth just voted me. But given that math exhorted others to vote MiX, I'd say this is not a satisfactory answer. I don't see how it can be RVS since he had reasons. Not random.
PPE: 1
I don't see it.
I feel like this game has a whole lot of "[player] is [alignment]" with very few reasons provided, and I'm not sure what to do with that.
Ok, Jimmmmm is scum because he's not engaging much. And then he does exactly what he's calling out for people not to do.Didds, have a cookie.
Vote: EFHW
No explanation? I'm not sure what to do with that. Oh, how about
Vote: Jimmmmm?
If you read the preceding post you'll find that Didds offered an explanation for her read on EFHW.
I’m frustrated with being so sucky at a game I enjoy. :/
I don't need any amount of trust to move my vote at this point.Or we'll exile you. That would be the preferred outcome.
No I don't feel nervous having votes without reasons. Presumably either reasons will come or they'll be moved before Day's end.
You want to exile me without providing reasons?Why would I want to provide reasons?
You want to exile me without providing reasons?Why would I want to provide reasons?
Yes but Jimmmmm's question implies that if we exile him without providing reasons, that would somehow be bad. Even though there is clearly no more convincing necessary if with have to votes to exile him.You want to exile me without providing reasons?Why would I want to provide reasons?
to convince other people, usually that's how it works
Yes but Jimmmmm's question implies that if we exile him without providing reasons, that would somehow be bad. Even though there is clearly no more convincing necessary if with have to votes to exile him.You want to exile me without providing reasons?Why would I want to provide reasons?
to convince other people, usually that's how it works
I’m frustrated with being so sucky at a game I enjoy. :/
oh, unironically welcome to the club
Yes but Jimmmmm's question implies that if we exile him without providing reasons, that would somehow be bad. Even though there is clearly no more convincing necessary if with have to votes to exile him.You want to exile me without providing reasons?Why would I want to provide reasons?
to convince other people, usually that's how it works
Not more than any town exile is bad.Yes but Jimmmmm's question implies that if we exile him without providing reasons, that would somehow be bad. Even though there is clearly no more convincing necessary if with have to votes to exile him.You want to exile me without providing reasons?Why would I want to provide reasons?
to convince other people, usually that's how it works
It would certainly be bad if he flips town.
Well really I find the idea of exiling (or pushing for one) without providing reasons absurd, both because you need to convince others to join you, and because you want to generate discussion that will help this and future exiles be more likely to be successful.It seems like discussion happened despite my not giving reasons.
Anyways, Jimmmmm, you do realise you implied that you want us to not exile you without providing reasons?
Anyways, Jimmmmm, you do realise you implied that you want us to not exile you without providing reasons?
Well really I find the idea of exiling (or pushing for one) without providing reasons absurd, both because you need to convince others to join you, and because you want to generate discussion that will help this and future exiles be more likely to be successful.It seems like discussion happened despite my not giving reasons.
The former.Anyways, Jimmmmm, you do realise you implied that you want us to not exile you without providing reasons?
"[not exile you] without providing reasons" or "not [exile you without providing reasons]"?
So why did you engage in this discussion?Well really I find the idea of exiling (or pushing for one) without providing reasons absurd, both because you need to convince others to join you, and because you want to generate discussion that will help this and future exiles be more likely to be successful.It seems like discussion happened despite my not giving reasons.
I'm not sure we're any closer to exiling scum.
The former.Anyways, Jimmmmm, you do realise you implied that you want us to not exile you without providing reasons?
"[not exile you] without providing reasons" or "not [exile you without providing reasons]"?
Can someone articulate why the Jimmmmm wagon?
I feel like this game has a whole lot of "[player] is [alignment]" with very few reasons provided, and I'm not sure what to do with that.
I’m frustrated with being so sucky at a game I enjoy. :/
oh, unironically welcome to the club
I’m frustrated with being so sucky at a game I enjoy. :/
oh, unironically welcome to the club
I bet my win record is worse than either of y'alls.
You want to exile me without providing reasons?Why would I want to provide reasons?
Can someone articulate why the Jimmmmm wagon?
Hi Everybody!
What meaningful scumtells do you infer from this post? Quacks like RVS to me.
I’m frustrated with being so sucky at a game I enjoy. :/
oh, unironically welcome to the club
I bet my win record is worse than either of y'alls.
I have reached the critical point of faust that I only want to misexile them.Probably not. You never know though.
Faust, do you think this discussion will help catch a wolf?
What is it that i am doing that I was doing as scum?I feel like this game has a whole lot of "[player] is [alignment]" with very few reasons provided, and I'm not sure what to do with that.
Welcome to playing with MiX! And apparently faust is being MiX now too. I can't scumread MiX for it... But faust was doing this last game as scum for scum reasons and now he's doing it again.
Eh, nevermind my question above, I got it now. It's my playstyle. In the last game I had a perfectly fine reason to be voting for Swowl set aside. I wouldn't have done that kind of vote as scum if I couldn't justify it later.You want to exile me without providing reasons?Why would I want to provide reasons?
Can you at least address the fact that you JUST USED this tactic as scum in the last game to avoid ever having to give a reason for suspecting Swowl?
I don't see the case for Jim at all. Looking through his ISO... he's done nothing but scumhunt. Is scumhunting supposed to be scummy now?Can you point me to posts where Jimmmmm scumhunts?
This is in my personal QT from that game by the way, I could share that if it helps and if joth thinks it's fine. Otherwise joth can confirm.Eh, nevermind my question above, I got it now. It's my playstyle. In the last game I had a perfectly fine reason to be voting for Swowl set aside. I wouldn't have done that kind of vote as scum if I couldn't justify it later.You want to exile me without providing reasons?Why would I want to provide reasons?
Can you at least address the fact that you JUST USED this tactic as scum in the last game to avoid ever having to give a reason for suspecting Swowl?
Yes.The former.Anyways, Jimmmmm, you do realise you implied that you want us to not exile you without providing reasons?
"[not exile you] without providing reasons" or "not [exile you without providing reasons]"?
Are you suggesting that I should argue my own Towniness absent any arguments for my scumminess?
This is in my personal QT from that game by the way, I could share that if it helps and if joth thinks it's fine. Otherwise joth can confirm.Eh, nevermind my question above, I got it now. It's my playstyle. In the last game I had a perfectly fine reason to be voting for Swowl set aside. I wouldn't have done that kind of vote as scum if I couldn't justify it later.You want to exile me without providing reasons?Why would I want to provide reasons?
Can you at least address the fact that you JUST USED this tactic as scum in the last game to avoid ever having to give a reason for suspecting Swowl?
I think Westworld was the last time I won as scum: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20403.0
Thanks! I now also have confirmation that you read 200 word long posts.
Oh man, feels good to have town!faust back. Welcome!
this is the case: MiX can only know faust is town for one reason. He's scum.
Last game was probably the first where I scumread faust while I was alive. I think I finally have a good read on him, and if so he's town here. I'm just not feeling unease when looking at his posts.
MiX is scum but it's not the exile we want right now.
Amazing.Vote: Jimmmmm
Vote: Jimmmmm
I feel better and better about my EFHW vote. I am not down with voting for Joth, MiX, LL, or faust.
But what does that have to do with wanting wagons? Having wagons is the best way of catching scum.Let’sAnd that's scummy why?
Vote: mathdude
Dude seems a little too eager to have wagons.
Town wants to exile scum. Scum just wants to exile.
Yes, I'm eager to get wagons. It's better to actually get people closer to X-1 or X-2 and see throughout the 5 or 7 days how people react, rather than having everyone at 1 or 2 votes until the final 6 hours when only the few online get a say in who gets exiled. If we get real wagons on many people throughout D1, then there's a lot more to look back at in later days. That's how we could find scum.
So I guess I agree with faust... hmmm, that makes me nervous. Oh well, it's D1. I can change my mind about him later if needed
Maybe it's that I don't know most people's playstyles well enough to "productively scumhunt", but wagon analysis is the best option I have most of the time.
Regarding claims though... with the setup in this game, won't scum just claim VT most of the time? Or maybe counterclaim something near XYLO? So forcing out claims won't work as well as RMM games.
I feel better and better about my EFHW vote. I am not down with voting for Joth, MiX, LL, or faust.
What about those 4 makes them not votable?
Because there can't be anything in the current game that is scummy.so anyway faust is town & Didds is town & MiX is ??? but he's being pleasant and helpful.Wait a minute - are you salty too?
idk, nobody's pinging me overmuch, which makes sense because none of you are terrible at this game.
Vote: EFHW
Ok I know I just said Didds was town, but quick gut check: does town Didds push this hard this early? I feel like Didds isn’t usually quite this confident or assertive in her Day 1 reads.
Not more than any town exile is bad.Yes but Jimmmmm's question implies that if we exile him without providing reasons, that would somehow be bad. Even though there is clearly no more convincing necessary if with have to votes to exile him.You want to exile me without providing reasons?Why would I want to provide reasons?
to convince other people, usually that's how it works
It would certainly be bad if he flips town.
Eh, nevermind my question above, I got it now. It's my playstyle. In the last game I had a perfectly fine reason to be voting for Swowl set aside. I wouldn't have done that kind of vote as scum if I couldn't justify it later.You want to exile me without providing reasons?Why would I want to provide reasons?
Can you at least address the fact that you JUST USED this tactic as scum in the last game to avoid ever having to give a reason for suspecting Swowl?
I feel better and better about my EFHW vote. I am not down with voting for Joth, MiX, LL, or faust.
What about those 4 makes them not votable?
I feel like they are probably town. Or I at least need more data to decide.
I feel better and better about my EFHW vote. I am not down with voting for Joth, MiX, LL, or faust.
What about those 4 makes them not votable?
I feel like they are probably town. Or I at least need more data to decide.
But in that same post (the part I snipped) you gave another list of people that you didn't know about. So did you just make a quick decision on them being townie for now? If so, what has made them townie so far?
Eh, nevermind my question above, I got it now. It's my playstyle. In the last game I had a perfectly fine reason to be voting for Swowl set aside. I wouldn't have done that kind of vote as scum if I couldn't justify it later.You want to exile me without providing reasons?Why would I want to provide reasons?
Can you at least address the fact that you JUST USED this tactic as scum in the last game to avoid ever having to give a reason for suspecting Swowl?
Can someone articulate why the Jimmmmm wagon?
Because you're questioning it. That puts the chance out there that the two of you are partners.
I think Westworld was the last time I won as scum: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20403.0
Thanks! I now also have confirmation that you read 200 word long posts.
Which post was this?
I don't see the case for Jim at all. Looking through his ISO... he's done nothing but scumhunt. Is scumhunting supposed to be scummy now?Can you point me to posts where Jimmmmm scumhunts?
I suspect MiX and faust are voting on me in the hopes that I’ll overreact to a small wagon which is one of my primary scum tells. It’s a good plan, town points all around.
Too careful an (effectively) first post in response to meaningless RVS votes.
Vote: joth
I feel like this game has a whole lot of "[player] is [alignment]" with very few reasons provided, and I'm not sure what to do with that.
Didds, have a cookie.
Vote: EFHW
.
Here, Jim changed his mind and was convinced to vote EFHW based on a case by WCD. I guess what made this look like scumhunting to me is that he didn't vote EFHW (who was already a sort of alternative wagon to him) until WCD gave reasons, and implies that the reasons convinced him. As scum, I think maybe he would have already been voting EFHW before WCD made the case. So, it is sheeping, but it looks like sheeping because he's looking for scum.
Could he be scum just fabricating this? Sure. Anyone could be still. But on D1 I don't see the point to punish a player for scumhunting unless there is a good argument that they really look like scum themselves. So I think Jim is a bad vote.
Because there can't be anything in the current game that is scummy.was a joke. I accidentally hit post before I could add an emoji :P
On the other hand, Jimmmmm is being more active than usual and you could say that he used the cover provided by Didds' case to join the wagon. I like seeing the participation, so I'm sorry to discourage it, but vote: Jimmmmm.
This was true before, but not now: what do you think about math's answer to your question?
Also I think it's obvious joth voted you because you were a wagon.
math, were you seriously pushing MiX, or was that more RVS?If LL hadn't joined the vote already, I would have already moved on. But since there were 2 votes, I thought I'd see if anyone else was interested in joining too.
So maybe RVS? ButI don’t know if I believe in RVS anymore.Ditto?
MiX wanted my response to this. I don't play this way, but I know some people do. Meaning being influenced by existing wagons in placing a vote. Maybe that's why joth just voted me. But given that math exhorted others to vote MiX, I'd say this is not a satisfactory answer. I don't see how it can be RVS since he had reasons. Not random.
It’s perception, so I think it’s fair for other people not to see it.
I see it as defensive because it begins with a deflection on the topic (MiX wanted an answer), then a shrug (I don’t play this way but some people do), then a deflection (maybe that’s what Joth vote was).
Come on people. MiX is a good wagon.
Here is the exhorting I mentioned in my last post.
There is a significant lack of research on mafia game theory unfortunately.Maybe it's that I don't know most people's playstyles well enough to "productively scumhunt", but wagon analysis is the best option I have most of the time.
Regarding claims though... with the setup in this game, won't scum just claim VT most of the time? Or maybe counterclaim something near XYLO? So forcing out claims won't work as well as RMM games.
Has anyone ever shown that wagon analysis is helpful? I mean I do it too, but do we know if it is meaningful?
Scum could likely get away easier on a wagon with no explanation.No they couldn't. It would in fact be harder for them to get away with that. If reasons were provided, then scum can just say "I agreed with the reasons given by gkrieg". If no reasons were provided, then they have to come up with convincing reasons themselves.
So can you explain what the supposed pro town reason of routinely hiding the reasons for your D1 votes is?Yes, sure. The first reason is it makes it harder for scum to hide. As explained in my answer to gkrieg above, having reasons makes it easy for scum to engage with the case - they just choose to agree or disagree with the reasons. If reasons are not given then they have to actively come up with a fake read without the guide of reading other player's reads. That is harder and thus playing that way makes it easier to catch scum.
Can you point to any recent town game where you've done this?You can probably look at any recent game where I've been town. However I replaced out early from Memento and Dwarves was bastard, so the best reasource is probably M134. I have a bunch of unexplained votes there.
What definitely does not serve town is debating which playstyles are and aren't helpful to town instead of scumhunting.
Hi Everybody!
What meaningful scumtells do you infer from this post? Quacks like RVS to me.
TBH though, the interactions before and after this rang a little scummy to me. So my vote wasn't entirely without reason. Also, creating interaction, seeing who defends and who jumps on wagon is helpful too.
Having done some re-reading I'm less than convinced about the EFHW wagon and will probably move my vote soon.
Didds, do you think you could be tunneling EFHW?
I am leading us down? I was merely answering iguana's question, and iguana seems to think that my answer will help him read me better, so that's helpful for the game. You responded with a paragraph that does nothing to with the current game and doesn't help anyone in any way.What definitely does not serve town is debating which playstyles are and aren't helpful to town instead of scumhunting.
For sure. And look at the rabbit-hole you're leading us down.
EBWOPI am leading us down? I was merely answering iguana's question, and iguana seems to think that my answer will help him read me better, so that's helpful for the game. You responded with a paragraph that does nothingWhat definitely does not serve town is debating which playstyles are and aren't helpful to town instead of scumhunting.
For sure. And look at the rabbit-hole you're leading us down.to withfor the current game and doesn't help anyone in any way.
In fact, Vote: faust. Scum or anti-Town, you don't get a free pass just because you want one.Oh yeah, and now a policy vote! I'm sure that is going to move the game forward.
I am leading us down?
In the very post that you quoted I have argued why what I posted was helpful content. If you disagree (which you do by saying that none of my content was helpful) then you need to argue against that.I am leading us down?
Yep. You have the most posts and zero helpful content. The only conclusion one can come to trying to analyse your game is "Why is he refusing to contribute?" So we either have to go ahead and give you that free pass, or argue with you about how anti-Town you're being.
Vote: joth
Oh man, feels good to have town!faust back. Welcome!Don't you think you can buddy me!
I was just about ready to vote MiX, and now you leave?I did not realize all the Joth voters had already unvoted.
I also don't like voting MiX because of all the tryhard.
Vote: EFHW because of saltiness is something I can get behind.
You don't like tryhard, but saltiness is okay?
Vote: iguana
Let's try a better wagon here?
Tsk, I don't do RVS. I get offended when people label my votes as RVS, and more so if they label them as meaningless.I suspect MiX and faust are voting on me in the hopes that I’ll overreact to a small wagon which is one of my primary scum tells. It’s a good plan, town points all around.
Too careful an (effectively) first post in response to meaningless RVS votes.
Vote: joth
It's important to also read what is not said.Hi Everybody!
What meaningful scumtells do you infer from this post? Quacks like RVS to me.
...okay, I'm going to stop here, you get my point I believe.Let’sAnd that's scummy why?
Vote: mathdude
Dude seems a little too eager to have wagons.
On the other hand, Jimmmmm is being more active than usual and you could say that he used the cover provided by Didds' case to join the wagon. I like seeing the participation, so I'm sorry to discourage it, but vote: Jimmmmm.
Thanks for the reason!
It's tough when you have a reputation for inactivity. I'd like to get away from it, and it's not really worth playing if I'm not going to be actively involved in the game, but any attempt to be more active is inevitably going to be seen as scummy. I'm certainly not going to limit my posting in order to avoid suspicion.
If it helps, I'm stuck at home due to lockdown, so I have more time on my hands than I would otherwise have.
I am leading us down? I was merely answering iguana's question, and iguana seems to think that my answer will help him read me better, so that's helpful for the game. You responded with a paragraph that does nothing to with the current game and doesn't help anyone in any way.What definitely does not serve town is debating which playstyles are and aren't helpful to town instead of scumhunting.
For sure. And look at the rabbit-hole you're leading us down.
Vote: joth
Oh man, feels good to have town!faust back. Welcome!Don't you think you can buddy me!
I was just about ready to vote MiX, and now you leave?I did not realize all the Joth voters had already unvoted.
I also don't like voting MiX because of all the tryhard.
Vote: EFHW because of saltiness is something I can get behind.
You don't like tryhard, but saltiness is okay?
Vote: iguana
Let's try a better wagon here?
Tsk, I don't do RVS. I get offended when people label my votes as RVS, and more so if they label them as meaningless.I suspect MiX and faust are voting on me in the hopes that I’ll overreact to a small wagon which is one of my primary scum tells. It’s a good plan, town points all around.
Too careful an (effectively) first post in response to meaningless RVS votes.
Vote: joth
It's important to also read what is not said.Hi Everybody!
What meaningful scumtells do you infer from this post? Quacks like RVS to me.
Let’sAnd that's scummy why?
Vote: mathdude
Dude seems a little too eager to have wagons.
I don't think much can be gleaned from this debate in terms of alignment tells. It's very easy for scum to engage in meta discussions because these don't have to be faked, they can talk about their sincere beliefs and generate interactions from that. On the other hand, "someone is wrong on the internet" is also a phenomenon that can get townies riled up and lead to them engaging in such discussions.I am leading us down? I was merely answering iguana's question, and iguana seems to think that my answer will help him read me better, so that's helpful for the game. You responded with a paragraph that does nothing to with the current game and doesn't help anyone in any way.What definitely does not serve town is debating which playstyles are and aren't helpful to town instead of scumhunting.
For sure. And look at the rabbit-hole you're leading us down.
I don't know about you, faust, but this post tells me you're both town.
What definitely does not serve town is debating which playstyles are and aren't helpful to town instead of scumhunting.
I don't think much can be gleaned from this debate in terms of alignment tells. It's very easy for scum to engage in meta discussions because these don't have to be faked, they can talk about their sincere beliefs and generate interactions from that. On the other hand, "someone is wrong on the internet" is also a phenomenon that can get townies riled up and lead to them engaging in such discussions.
I am focused on winning this game. If you want to have that discussion we can make a separate thread for it once this game is over.What definitely does not serve town is debating which playstyles are and aren't helpful to town instead of scumhunting.
you do long-term.
What definitely does not serve town is debating which playstyles are and aren't helpful to town instead of scumhunting.
you do long-term.
I'm not refusing to talk about my reads though. My votes are there, I tend to vote for my scumreads. Sometimes I even state my reads on players I am not currently voting for. You are free to use this information to infer my alignment. I am not sure how my giving reasons for every vote would help you in that process.I don't think much can be gleaned from this debate in terms of alignment tells. It's very easy for scum to engage in meta discussions because these don't have to be faked, they can talk about their sincere beliefs and generate interactions from that. On the other hand, "someone is wrong on the internet" is also a phenomenon that can get townies riled up and lead to them engaging in such discussions.
And by refusing to talk about your reads, you're limiting discussion about you to this.
I'm not refusing to talk about my reads though.
I am disappointed in you, MiX. Two people having a drawn-out emotional discussion and then a third player going "I think this is TvT" is such a meme. I expected better.
I'm not refusing to talk about my reads though.
Alright cool. So why the vote on me? Why do you think MiX is scum? Why did you vote for joth and iguana, and why change your mind? Would you go back to them, and why or why not? Any other reads, and how did you come to them?
In my experience the statement is about as likely to be correct as random chance once you restrict to only instances where townies say it.I am disappointed in you, MiX. Two people having a drawn-out emotional discussion and then a third player going "I think this is TvT" is such a meme. I expected better.
It's a meme for a reason. I think your particular way of reacting to Jimmmmm makes him town. And of course, it makes you town too.
In my experience the statement is about as likely to be correct as random chance once you restrict to only instances where townies say it.I am disappointed in you, MiX. Two people having a drawn-out emotional discussion and then a third player going "I think this is TvT" is such a meme. I expected better.
It's a meme for a reason. I think your particular way of reacting to Jimmmmm makes him town. And of course, it makes you town too.
Also, wait - the way I reacted to Jimmmmm makes him town? How does that make sense?
I was about to write a snarky response, but it's no use escalating this. I do not deny that there are things that I refuse to talk about. I am sure that there are things that you refuse to talk about, too, otherwise you would tell me your role now. The only difference is where we draw the line. i am willing to discuss some things when I feel it is beneficial to discuss them. Someone I think is scum wanting to know is not grounds for me to change my mind though.I'm not refusing to talk about my reads though.
Alright cool. So why the vote on me? Why do you think MiX is scum? Why did you vote for joth and iguana, and why change your mind? Would you go back to them, and why or why not? Any other reads, and how did you come to them?
The things he said that made you react like that, and the reaction itself, tells me that you subconsciously think that he's being honest and genuine.What does is matter what I think?
What definitely does not serve town is debating which playstyles are and aren't helpful to town instead of scumhunting.
you do long-term.
What are you implying here?
Alright so which of your reads are you willing to discuss?Currently? The ones I have discussed. I will entertain talking about reads on other people once they become relevant to the flow of the game.
I am disappointed in you, MiX. Two people having a drawn-out emotional discussion and then a third player going "I think this is TvT" is such a meme. I expected better.
It's a meme for a reason. I think your particular way of reacting to Jimmmmm makes him town. And of course, it makes you town too.
Also, wait - the way I reacted to Jimmmmm makes him town? How does that make sense?
I have little faith in reaching a consensus. Also, the fact that different people have different playstyles is a plus in my book, I wouldn't want to change that.What definitely does not serve town is debating which playstyles are and aren't helpful to town instead of scumhunting.
you do long-term.
What are you implying here?
that a discussion of different playstyles and eventual consensus gonna help minimize these kinds of conversations in the future and maybe playing the game instead of "going down that rabbit hole"
I have little faith in reaching a consensus. Also, the fact that different people have different playstyles is a plus in my book, I wouldn't want to change that.What definitely does not serve town is debating which playstyles are and aren't helpful to town instead of scumhunting.
you do long-term.
What are you implying here?
that a discussion of different playstyles and eventual consensus gonna help minimize these kinds of conversations in the future and maybe playing the game instead of "going down that rabbit hole"
I think I overlooked this post in all the conundrum. What did you not like, LaLight?Anyways, Jimmmmm, you do realise you implied that you want us to not exile you without providing reasons?
I don't like this. vote: faust
Alright so which of your reads are you willing to discuss?Currently? The ones I have discussed. I will entertain talking about reads on other people once they become relevant to the flow of the game.
Alright so which of your reads are you willing to discuss?Currently? The ones I have discussed. I will entertain talking about reads on other people once they become relevant to the flow of the game.
So none of them. This is you refusing to to talk about your reads.
Alright let's try this. Put yourself in my position. I want to try to get a read on you, and not from punctuation in posts or meta from games I wasn't involved in. How do I do that? How would you get a read on someone based purely on who they have voted for? (And not just from the alignment or perceived alignment of the votees - "they're voting for Town so they must be scum" doesn't cut it.)
Again, I am not willing to engage in discussion about playstyles. How you get your reads is your business. I am putting enough content out there to be read.Alright so which of your reads are you willing to discuss?Currently? The ones I have discussed. I will entertain talking about reads on other people once they become relevant to the flow of the game.
So none of them. This is you refusing to to talk about your reads.
Alright let's try this. Put yourself in my position. I want to try to get a read on you, and not from punctuation in posts or meta from games I wasn't involved in. How do I do that? How would you get a read on someone based purely on who they have voted for? (And not just from the alignment or perceived alignment of the votees - "they're voting for Town so they must be scum" doesn't cut it.)
I think I overlooked this post in all the conundrum. What did you not like, LaLight?Anyways, Jimmmmm, you do realise you implied that you want us to not exile you without providing reasons?
I don't like this. vote: faust
Okay faust, what are the reasons we should believe you're Town?Well, I have done townie things. I think I am more contrarian when I am town, and thus often attract more votes as town than I do as scum, and I think you can see that in my play.
I was being sarcastic, but I also genuinely wanted Jimmmmm to explain why he is town, something that he by the way has refused to do so far.I think I overlooked this post in all the conundrum. What did you not like, LaLight?Anyways, Jimmmmm, you do realise you implied that you want us to not exile you without providing reasons?
I don't like this. vote: faust
This actually looked like a sarcasm, which would make even more posts appear that distract people (which actually happened!)
I was being sarcastic, but I also genuinely wanted Jimmmmm to explain why he is town, something that he by the way has refused to do so far.
Hi Everybody!
What meaningful scumtells do you infer from this post? Quacks like RVS to me.
TBH though, the interactions before and after this rang a little scummy to me. So my vote wasn't entirely without reason. Also, creating interaction, seeing who defends and who jumps on wagon is helpful too.
What interactions rang scummy? You say "before and after" this - are you quoting the post you didn't find scummy?
This is a continuation of discussion from the Oz game. I am really happy to see faust's explanation of why he does naked votes.What definitely does not serve town is debating which playstyles are and aren't helpful to town instead of scumhunting.
you do long-term.
What are you implying here?
that a discussion of different playstyles and eventual consensus gonna help minimize these kinds of conversations in the future and maybe playing the game instead of "going down that rabbit hole"
Oh also if I was scum I would be more accepting of MiX and his townread on me.
Oh also if I was scum I would be more accepting of MiX and his townread on me.
the fact that you know your meta makes all those things NAI
You're basically saying "Let's not play the game so it makes it harder for scum to play the game". When everyone's a suspect, there's no way to force scum to give their opinions before Town, and trying to do so can only give scum a free pass to not contribute. What you're doing may serve you as an individual across multiple games, but it certainly doesn't serve the Town.
Oh also if I was scum I would be more accepting of MiX and his townread on me.
the fact that you know your meta makes all those things NAI
and this is actually why I think all the "give me reasons you're town" questions are meaningless unless there's something like "I helped exile two scum already"
Finally, reasons are often not much more than a confirmation-biased reread of someone you already gut-read as scum. If you type them out you only lean more into that confirmation bias. And you've created a position now that you will feel that you need to defend, which psychologically makes it even harder to remain open and fight the bias.
You're basically saying "Let's not play the game so it makes it harder for scum to play the game". When everyone's a suspect, there's no way to force scum to give their opinions before Town, and trying to do so can only give scum a free pass to not contribute. What you're doing may serve you as an individual across multiple games, but it certainly doesn't serve the Town.
This is sort of my take on the whole faust opinion of providing naked votes.
If faust is town, it helps him get better reads as others reply, respond, react, and interact. If people get defensive, or ignore things, or jump on a wagon, or infer reasons or add reasons from their own confirmation bias, it can tell him things, since he knows what reasons he started things for.
But if faust is scum, it allows him to put "reads" on people without giving reasons, it lets him test where others want to start wagons, let's him look involved (shows up in vote counts) without actually saying much, and generally seem "town" (in his opinion) because he's following his meta.
He's got (and/or is building) a meta that lets him completely fly under the radar when he is scum because it doesn't require faking anything.
The problem with this whole thing is that it seems helpful to him, from his perspective, no matter his alignment. But it does nothing to make the rest of us believe he's town because it's just as easy for him to claim that he's doing the same thing he always does, whether town or scum. So the responses to his blind votes don't mean anything to us since we don't know why he initially posted it.
So overall, faust's strategy is good for him, bad for the rest of us. The biggest problem is that he could be genuinely trying to be helpful town, but just as easily could be scum easily hiding behind his D1 meta.
You guys are all wrong. That exchange was extremely enlightening. Faust is town and Jimmmmm is scum.
Vote: Jimmmmm
Oh look you conveniently ignored my other post which contains stuff that is not meta-based!Oh also if I was scum I would be more accepting of MiX and his townread on me.
the fact that you know your meta makes all those things NAI
trying not to extend the discussion in a meaningless way... good luck, self!I'm afraid you failed, unfortunately.
faust is arguing in a way that seems surprisingly genuine and charitable, especially for him....thanks?
No, thank you.faust is arguing in a way that seems surprisingly genuine and charitable, especially for him....thanks?
You guys are all wrong. That exchange was extremely enlightening. Faust is town and Jimmmmm is scum.
Vote: Jimmmmm
Lol.
Vote: joth
Vote: e cause you're partners.
faust is arguing in a way that seems surprisingly genuine and charitable, especially for him. Like he’s really trying in good faith to get past an argument he finds unproductive.
Jimmmmm is trying to have the meta-argument while also gently implying faust is scum wherever possible. The vote was just a little over the top. Thinly veiled OMGUS.
Okay faust, what are the reasons we should believe you're Town?Well, I have done townie things. I think I am more contrarian when I am town, and thus often attract more votes as town than I do as scum, and I think you can see that in my play.
The three players I have voted for (joth, iguana, Jimmmmm) have all since ended up on the EFHW wagon, so unless you think that is completely town-driven, I have already voted for scum. If you do think that the EFHW wagon is completely town-driven, then it is probably beneficial to join that wagon rather than start a new one on me.
Okay faust, what are the reasons we should believe you're Town?Well, I have done townie things. I think I am more contrarian when I am town, and thus often attract more votes as town than I do as scum, and I think you can see that in my play.
The three players I have voted for (joth, iguana, Jimmmmm) have all since ended up on the EFHW wagon, so unless you think that is completely town-driven, I have already voted for scum. If you do think that the EFHW wagon is completely town-driven, then it is probably beneficial to join that wagon rather than start a new one on me.
Prod: e
I guess? Though if anyone feels this way about the EFHW wagon then I think that person should tell us that and explain why they feel that way. If you feel so strongly about a wagon that you are willing to go against a bunch of your townreads then you have some insight that is worth sharing. That hasn't happened, so I think it's safe to assume that noone believes it.Okay faust, what are the reasons we should believe you're Town?Well, I have done townie things. I think I am more contrarian when I am town, and thus often attract more votes as town than I do as scum, and I think you can see that in my play.
The three players I have voted for (joth, iguana, Jimmmmm) have all since ended up on the EFHW wagon, so unless you think that is completely town-driven, I have already voted for scum. If you do think that the EFHW wagon is completely town-driven, then it is probably beneficial to join that wagon rather than start a new one on me.
I do want to call out a fallacy here, possibly a scummy one, which is that town-driven wagon =/= wagon on scum. If Jimmmmm thinks that the EFHW wagon is a misguided, but town-driven, wagon, then it's not the case that it's beneficial to join it and also not the case that faust has voted for scum. faust has tried to create a dichotomy here but has intentionally excluded an option to make that dichotomy seem to exonerate him. So, some scumpoints for faust.
[-snip-]
I would have preferred to avoid the meta argument entirely, but sadly there's nothing else to talk about when it comes to faust's game.
Oh also if I was scum I would be more accepting of MiX and his townread on me.
the fact that you know your meta makes all those things NAI
Prod: Swowl
I think he's realized that the thing he wants to do while sunbathing at the beach is not forum mafia.
mathdude, those were a couple of really good and insightful posts.Which ones, the meta posts? They did nothing for this game, so I would not call them good.
You guys are all wrong. That exchange was extremely enlightening. Faust is town and Jimmmmm is scum.
Vote: Jimmmmm
Lol.
Vote: joth
Vote: e cause you're partners.
If my main concern was dissolving a wagon on me, coming out against faust would not be the way to do that.
trying not to extend the discussion in a meaningless way... good luck, self!I'm afraid you failed, unfortunately.
You guys are all wrong. That exchange was extremely enlightening. Faust is town and Jimmmmm is scum.
Vote: Jimmmmm
White paused for a moment to look out the window and noticed that somehow their course had drifted straight into an asteroid field! They jumped on the weapons and started blasting the asteroids out of the sky, while Cyan jumped in the pilot's seat and charted a new course. At the back of the ship, Lime Green wondered where everyone was, so they sat down and watched the security cameras for a bit.
Vote Count 1.3
iguanaiguana (1): 2.71828.....
EFHW (4): WestCoastDidds, iguanaiguana, jotheonah, Jimmmmm
Jimmmmm (3): faust, MiX, mathdude
faust (1): LaLight
Not Voting (3): Swowl, EFHW, gkrieg13
With 12 alive, it takes 7 to exile. Day 1 ends September 18, 2021, 03:00:00 pm
Wait, people are voting Jimmmmm?
You all are super scummy. Jimmmm is the most townie of all townies
Wait, people are voting Jimmmmm?
You all are super scummy. Jimmmm is the most townie of all townies
And you know this because... ? AFAIK, only scum could be that sure... or MiX apparently. Everything he knows, he knows with 100% certainty.
White paused for a moment to look out the window and noticed that somehow their course had drifted straight into an asteroid field! They jumped on the weapons and started blasting the asteroids out of the sky, while Cyan jumped in the pilot's seat and charted a new course. At the back of the ship, Lime Green wondered where everyone was, so they sat down and watched the security cameras for a bit.
Vote Count 1.3
iguanaiguana (1): 2.71828.....
EFHW (4): WestCoastDidds, iguanaiguana, jotheonah, Jimmmmm
Jimmmmm (3): faust, MiX, mathdude
faust (1): LaLight
Not Voting (3): Swowl, EFHW, gkrieg13
With 12 alive, it takes 7 to exile. Day 1 ends September 18, 2021, 03:00:00 pm
Third vote is scum
Vote: math
What do you mean, that sure? All e said is that Jimmmmm is his highest townread. Doesn't matter how strong your reads are, one (or more) of them is always going to be the strongest.Wait, people are voting Jimmmmm?
You all are super scummy. Jimmmm is the most townie of all townies
And you know this because... ? AFAIK, only scum could be that sure... or MiX apparently. Everything he knows, he knows with 100% certainty.
White paused for a moment to look out the window and noticed that somehow their course had drifted straight into an asteroid field! They jumped on the weapons and started blasting the asteroids out of the sky, while Cyan jumped in the pilot's seat and charted a new course. At the back of the ship, Lime Green wondered where everyone was, so they sat down and watched the security cameras for a bit.
Vote Count 1.3
iguanaiguana (1): 2.71828.....
EFHW (4): WestCoastDidds, iguanaiguana, jotheonah, Jimmmmm
Jimmmmm (3): faust, MiX, mathdude
faust (1): LaLight
Not Voting (3): Swowl, EFHW, gkrieg13
With 12 alive, it takes 7 to exile. Day 1 ends September 18, 2021, 03:00:00 pm
Third vote is scum
Vote: math
Policy vote anyone? "3rd vote on my town-read is scum".
Or OMGUS because we're voting your partner?
It feels super awesome when you actually end up being right.
.......Except I have an abysmal track record of actually being right
What do you mean, that sure? All e said is that Jimmmmm is his highest townread. Doesn't matter how strong your reads are, one (or more) of them is always going to be the strongest.Wait, people are voting Jimmmmm?
You all are super scummy. Jimmmm is the most townie of all townies
And you know this because... ? AFAIK, only scum could be that sure... or MiX apparently. Everything he knows, he knows with 100% certainty.
You guys are all wrong. That exchange was extremely enlightening. Faust is town and Jimmmmm is scum.
Vote: Jimmmmm
Which exchange? Everything I read from jimmmm screamed town
White paused for a moment to look out the window and noticed that somehow their course had drifted straight into an asteroid field! They jumped on the weapons and started blasting the asteroids out of the sky, while Cyan jumped in the pilot's seat and charted a new course. At the back of the ship, Lime Green wondered where everyone was, so they sat down and watched the security cameras for a bit.
Vote Count 1.3
iguanaiguana (1): 2.71828.....
EFHW (4): WestCoastDidds, iguanaiguana, jotheonah, Jimmmmm
Jimmmmm (3): faust, MiX, mathdude
faust (1): LaLight
Not Voting (3): Swowl, EFHW, gkrieg13
With 12 alive, it takes 7 to exile. Day 1 ends September 18, 2021, 03:00:00 pm
Third vote is scum
Vote: math
Policy vote anyone? "3rd vote on my town-read is scum".
Or OMGUS because we're voting your partner?
Ah, I see. You needed to give me more material to prove that you are scum.
Greatly appreciated
White paused for a moment to look out the window and noticed that somehow their course had drifted straight into an asteroid field! They jumped on the weapons and started blasting the asteroids out of the sky, while Cyan jumped in the pilot's seat and charted a new course. At the back of the ship, Lime Green wondered where everyone was, so they sat down and watched the security cameras for a bit.
Vote Count 1.3
iguanaiguana (1): 2.71828.....
EFHW (4): WestCoastDidds, iguanaiguana, jotheonah, Jimmmmm
Jimmmmm (3): faust, MiX, mathdude
faust (1): LaLight
Not Voting (3): Swowl, EFHW, gkrieg13
With 12 alive, it takes 7 to exile. Day 1 ends September 18, 2021, 03:00:00 pm
Third vote is scum
Vote: math
Are you saying this because joth is now also voting for Jimmmmm or because joth was the third vote on the EFHW wagon?White paused for a moment to look out the window and noticed that somehow their course had drifted straight into an asteroid field! They jumped on the weapons and started blasting the asteroids out of the sky, while Cyan jumped in the pilot's seat and charted a new course. At the back of the ship, Lime Green wondered where everyone was, so they sat down and watched the security cameras for a bit.
Vote Count 1.3
iguanaiguana (1): 2.71828.....
EFHW (4): WestCoastDidds, iguanaiguana, jotheonah, Jimmmmm
Jimmmmm (3): faust, MiX, mathdude
faust (1): LaLight
Not Voting (3): Swowl, EFHW, gkrieg13
With 12 alive, it takes 7 to exile. Day 1 ends September 18, 2021, 03:00:00 pm
Third vote is scum
Vote: math
Conveniently ignores joth...
Conveniently ignores joth...Are you saying this because joth is now also voting for Jimmmmm or because joth was the third vote on the EFHW wagon?
Joth has a D1 pass, remember?White paused for a moment to look out the window and noticed that somehow their course had drifted straight into an asteroid field! They jumped on the weapons and started blasting the asteroids out of the sky, while Cyan jumped in the pilot's seat and charted a new course. At the back of the ship, Lime Green wondered where everyone was, so they sat down and watched the security cameras for a bit.
Vote Count 1.3
iguanaiguana (1): 2.71828.....
EFHW (4): WestCoastDidds, iguanaiguana, jotheonah, Jimmmmm
Jimmmmm (3): faust, MiX, mathdude
faust (1): LaLight
Not Voting (3): Swowl, EFHW, gkrieg13
With 12 alive, it takes 7 to exile. Day 1 ends September 18, 2021, 03:00:00 pm
Third vote is scum
Vote: math
Conveniently ignores joth...
Conveniently ignores joth...Are you saying this because joth is now also voting for Jimmmmm or because joth was the third vote on the EFHW wagon?
The latter.
mathdude, those were a couple of really good and insightful posts.Which ones, the meta posts? They did nothing for this game, so I would not call them good.
Third vote is scum
Vote: math
If my main concern was dissolving a wagon on me, coming out against faust would not be the way to do that.
Not a valid defense, but I don't like exiling jimmmm just out of personal bias. I should probably reread jimmmmm
In fact, Vote: faust. Scum or anti-Town, you don't get a free pass just because you want one.@Jimmmmm, at what point did you start feeling angry at faust?
If angry is too strong a word, then when did your negative feelings peak?Peak negative feelings was definitely here:
What definitely does not serve town is debating which playstyles are and aren't helpful to town instead of scumhunting.
For sure. And look at the rabbit-hole you're leading us down.
If it was pro-Town then everyone should do itThis is a fallacy.
I think this kind of acti-lurking is significantly worse than lurking, and if we "exile all lurkers" as an attempt to disincentivise lurking, then we should do something similar for this.Please explain how what I do is worse than lurking.
I did lean into the argument a bitThis to me really illustrates how disingenuous the post i quoted for my peak negative feelings really was.
If it was pro-Town then everyone should do itThis is a fallacy.
I think this kind of acti-lurking is significantly worse than lurking, and if we "exile all lurkers" as an attempt to disincentivise lurking, then we should do something similar for this.Please explain how what I do is worse than lurking.
I did lean into the argument a bitThis to me really illustrates how disingenuous the post i quoted for my peak negative feelings really was.
[-snip-]
I would have preferred to avoid the meta argument entirely, but sadly there's nothing else to talk about when it comes to faust's game.
I don't think you can say this any more in good faith. faust has divulged quite a bit. He shared his opinion on the EFHW wagon, gave more of a read on MiX, etc. He's playing less one dimensionally than you are giving him credit for in your argument.
The three players I have voted for (joth, iguana, Jimmmmm) have all since ended up on the EFHW wagon, so unless you think that is completely town-driven, I have already voted for scum. If you do think that the EFHW wagon is completely town-driven, then it is probably beneficial to join that wagon rather than start a new one on me.
Don't you think you can buddy me!
I was just about ready to vote MiX, and now you leave?
MiX is scum but it's not the exile we want right now.
If I tell you we'd have to kill him.MiX is scum but it's not the exile we want right now.
why not?
I am disappointed in you, MiX. Two people having a drawn-out emotional discussion and then a third player going "I think this is TvT" is such a meme. I expected better.
In my experience the statement is about as likely to be correct as random chance once you restrict to only instances where townies say it.I am disappointed in you, MiX. Two people having a drawn-out emotional discussion and then a third player going "I think this is TvT" is such a meme. I expected better.
It's a meme for a reason. I think your particular way of reacting to Jimmmmm makes him town. And of course, it makes you town too.
Also, wait - the way I reacted to Jimmmmm makes him town? How does that make sense?
The things he said that made you react like that, and the reaction itself, tells me that you subconsciously think that he's being honest and genuine.What does is matter what I think?
Also, the fact that scum can be honest and genuine about these things was like, the entire point i tried to make earlier.
Oh also if I was scum I would be more accepting of MiX and his townread on me.
...Are you saying this because joth is now also voting for Jimmmmm or because joth was the third vote on the EFHW wagon?
Conveniently ignores joth...
MiX is scum but it's not the exile we want right now.[...]
Nothing here sheds any light to me on [...] faust's read on MiX.
Enough digression/regression regarding the last game. How shall we get out of RVS?
math, were you seriously pushing MiX, or was that more RVS?
so anyway faust is town & Didds is town & MiX is ??? but he's being pleasant and helpful.Wait a minute - are you salty too?
idk, nobody's pinging me overmuch, which makes sense because none of you are terrible at this game.
Vote: EFHW
I feel better and better about my EFHW vote.
I think you have this on speed dial. I used to scum read it. Now I think it's NAI.
Because there can't be anything in the current game that is scummy.so anyway faust is town & Didds is town & MiX is ??? but he's being pleasant and helpful.Wait a minute - are you salty too?
idk, nobody's pinging me overmuch, which makes sense because none of you are terrible at this game.
Vote: EFHW
math, were you seriously pushing MiX, or was that more RVS?If LL hadn't joined the vote already, I would have already moved on. But since there were 2 votes, I thought I'd see if anyone else was interested in joining too.
So maybe RVS? ButI don’t know if I believe in RVS anymore.Ditto?
MiX wanted my response to this. I don't play this way, but I know some people do. Meaning being influenced by existing wagons in placing a vote. Maybe that's why joth just voted me. But given that math exhorted others to vote MiX, I'd say this is not a satisfactory answer. I don't see how it can be RVS since he had reasons. Not random.
Can someone articulate why the Jimmmmm wagon?
He's scummy.
And uh I was also townreading Jimmmmm before this recent discussion.
Anyway, it would be cool if we had other wagons, or maybe even just collapse on EFHW. I'll reread the game in a few hours and decide then.
Ok, I'm going to respond to one question directed at me, then give my 2 cents on the 2 pages of excessive banter while trying not to extend the discussion in a meaningless way... good luck, self!Hi Everybody!
What meaningful scumtells do you infer from this post? Quacks like RVS to me.
TBH though, the interactions before and after this rang a little scummy to me. So my vote wasn't entirely without reason. Also, creating interaction, seeing who defends and who jumps on wagon is helpful too.
What interactions rang scummy? You say "before and after" this - are you quoting the post you didn't find scummy?
Specifically, the quoted post felt artificial. Then looking at the post he quoted, and the 2 or 3 that followed, it felt to me like Jimmmmm was trying to create interaction ... I don't know, it just didn't feel like genuine town posting to me. (No, don't ask me what town posting feels like... it was just my gut feel.)
Can someone articulate why the Jimmmmm wagon?
He's scummy.And uh I was also townreading Jimmmmm before this recent discussion.
Anyway, it would be cool if we had other wagons, or maybe even just collapse on EFHW. I'll reread the game in a few hours and decide then.
MiX, what and when was the change in your attitude towards me between these posts, which are 17 hours apart?
In fact, Vote: faust. Scum or anti-Town, you don't get a free pass just because you want one.@Jimmmmm, at what point did you start feeling angry at faust?
@faust, same question re: Jimmmmm.
In fact, Vote: faust. Scum or anti-Town, you don't get a free pass just because you want one.@Jimmmmm, at what point did you start feeling angry at faust?
@faust, same question re: Jimmmmm.
I am willing to policy exile EFHW for this post.
In fact, Vote: faust. Scum or anti-Town, you don't get a free pass just because you want one.@Jimmmmm, at what point did you start feeling angry at faust?
@faust, same question re: Jimmmmm.
I am willing to policy exile EFHW for this post.
why?
In fact, Vote: faust. Scum or anti-Town, you don't get a free pass just because you want one.@Jimmmmm, at what point did you start feeling angry at faust?
@faust, same question re: Jimmmmm.
I am willing to policy exile EFHW for this post.
why?
Because she brought up the faust/Jimmmmm argument again, for what it seems like no real reason.
In fact, Vote: faust. Scum or anti-Town, you don't get a free pass just because you want one.@Jimmmmm, at what point did you start feeling angry at faust?
@faust, same question re: Jimmmmm.
I am willing to policy exile EFHW for this post.
In fact, Vote: faust. Scum or anti-Town, you don't get a free pass just because you want one.@Jimmmmm, at what point did you start feeling angry at faust?
@faust, same question re: Jimmmmm.
I am willing to policy exile EFHW for this post.
I want to sort out if either of them is scummy for that argument.
Can anyone remember reads being given to players that aren't faust/Jimmmmm/EFHW/MiX/joth/math?
I did scumread e, but I can't remember much else.
Can anyone remember reads being given to players that aren't faust/Jimmmmm/EFHW/MiX/joth/math?
I did scumread e, but I can't remember much else.
White paused for a moment to look out the window and noticed that somehow their course had drifted straight into an asteroid field! They jumped on the weapons and started blasting the asteroids out of the sky, while Cyan jumped in the pilot's seat and charted a new course. At the back of the ship, Lime Green wondered where everyone was, so they sat down and watched the security cameras for a bit.
Vote Count 1.3
iguanaiguana (1): 2.71828.....
EFHW (4): WestCoastDidds, iguanaiguana, jotheonah, Jimmmmm
Jimmmmm (3): faust, MiX, mathdude
faust (1): LaLight
Not Voting (3): Swowl, EFHW, gkrieg13
With 12 alive, it takes 7 to exile. Day 1 ends September 18, 2021, 03:00:00 pm
Can anyone remember reads being given to players that aren't faust/Jimmmmm/EFHW/MiX/joth/math?
I did scumread e, but I can't remember much else.
joth says Didds is Towny, although that wavered a bit.
Didds says that LL and iguana are Towny (along with others on the list).
Are you wanting a response from me?
We should look at LL/iguana/Swowl/gkrieg/e then. Yes, I excluded Didds, but only because I actually remember joth's post about her.
You can respond if you want. But I was more interested in other people's opinions of your meta. As has already been mentioned this thread (regarding faust or joth, I forget which)... when someone knows their own meta well enough to comment on it, it does seem to make it NAI. But if you can tell me which of those options (or another option) it is, that can help, I guess.
Vote: MiX
the time has come.
Vote: MiX
the time has come.
vote: mathdude
Regarding Jimmmmm's textwalls above (re-digging into faust, now also looking at detail into EFHW), can someone who knows his meta better help me interpret them? I'm not sure what to make of this effort.I think the problem with answering this is that Jimmmmm has not been playing a lot recently, and when he did oftentimes he just ended up lurking and eventually getting exiled/replaced for that.
Does scum!Jimmmmm dig in and try to find another valid wagon when he comes under fire? Is this town!Jimmmmm honestly trying to seek out the truth? Or is this is standard defense/response for him when he's up against a wall, regardless of alignment, making it NAI?
Unvote for now.
Hey faust, why oh why are you scumreading me? I'm so invested in this question and believe you will provide a satisfactory answer!It's because you are scum!
I don't know if you should. I definitely respond more positively to a third party asking for reasons for my vote than the person I'm voting for.Vote: MiX
the time has come.
Should I even bother asking for reasons?
Why are we changing directions when we have two perfectly cromulent wagons right here?At this point, it is a bit unclear which wagons you are referring to with this.
I wanted to contrast this with a town game of Jimmmmm's, and in BM32, he was the D1 misexile, but at no point did that pressure cause a flurry of activity like in the scum games I referenced.Regarding Jimmmmm's textwalls above (re-digging into faust, now also looking at detail into EFHW), can someone who knows his meta better help me interpret them? I'm not sure what to make of this effort.I think the problem with answering this is that Jimmmmm has not been playing a lot recently, and when he did oftentimes he just ended up lurking and eventually getting exiled/replaced for that.
Does scum!Jimmmmm dig in and try to find another valid wagon when he comes under fire? Is this town!Jimmmmm honestly trying to seek out the truth? Or is this is standard defense/response for him when he's up against a wall, regardless of alignment, making it NAI?
Unvote for now.
I looked at the last 2 of his scum games: RMM56 and RMM54. Jimmmm was Serial Killer in RMM56, so that's maybe not the best representation. In that game, there is definitely a flurry of activity from Jimmmmm after he gets his first wagon (read from here (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20258.msg843931#msg843931)).
In RMM54, he similarly reacts with wallposting to pressure, see e.g. this post (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=19849.msg813793#msg813793) coming after a push, which is significantly longer than anything he posted before in that game. It's followed by more rereads.
Why are we changing directions when we have two perfectly cromulent wagons right here?
Regarding Jimmmmm's textwalls above (re-digging into faust, now also looking at detail into EFHW), can someone who knows his meta better help me interpret them? I'm not sure what to make of this effort.
Does scum!Jimmmmm dig in and try to find another valid wagon when he comes under fire? Is this town!Jimmmmm honestly trying to seek out the truth? Or is this is standard defense/response for him when he's up against a wall, regardless of alignment, making it NAI?
Unvote for now.
vote: mathdude
Jimmmmm is a very easy D1 misexile. He can't solve then and so he doesn't have much else other than activity tells. It's also a voice worth shutting down for later in the game. This is similar to gkrieg, honestly.
Yes he can be scum here. But there's not much else saying he's scum other than that.
Faust is only reading half of my posts and that's super townie. I understand scumreading me for buddying him, but saying I've been overemphasizing being town!MiX just ignores everything I've done into "it's townie, therefore it's scummy".
The mathdude wagon is extremely interesting. It's entirely composed of what faust would call lurkers.
Too interesting to give half-baked opinions on it.
The mathdude wagon is extremely interesting. It's entirely composed of what faust would call lurkers.
Too interesting to give half-baked opinions on it.
Is he scummy? Or he just has a scummy wagon?
Jimmmmm is a very easy D1 misexile. He can't solve then and so he doesn't have much else other than activity tells. It's also a voice worth shutting down for later in the game. This is similar to gkrieg, honestly.
Yes he can be scum here. But there's not much else saying he's scum other than that.
Faust is only reading half of my posts and that's super townie. I understand scumreading me for buddying him, but saying I've been overemphasizing being town!MiX just ignores everything I've done into "it's townie, therefore it's scummy".
Ok, so the scum team is MiX-Jimmmm and ... who else do we think?
The mathdude wagon is extremely interesting. It's entirely composed of what faust would call lurkers.
Too interesting to give half-baked opinions on it.
Is he scummy? Or he just has a scummy wagon?
He, not e
I am here and have read. I worked 12 hours until 2am last night, am working 10 hours until midnight today and need to start getting ready soon. So I have reasons for where I voted that I want to share but just literally have not been able to sit at a desktop to write them down.
I can not do this game playing my style phone posting, but I'm hoping to get a couple hours tomorrow morning.
I find MiX lumping me in with the lurkers to be silly on its face. Time will tell I will blow your word count out of the water 8)
Didds is the third, clearly.Jimmmmm is a very easy D1 misexile. He can't solve then and so he doesn't have much else other than activity tells. It's also a voice worth shutting down for later in the game. This is similar to gkrieg, honestly.
Yes he can be scum here. But there's not much else saying he's scum other than that.
Faust is only reading half of my posts and that's super townie. I understand scumreading me for buddying him, but saying I've been overemphasizing being town!MiX just ignores everything I've done into "it's townie, therefore it's scummy".
Ok, so the scum team is MiX-Jimmmm and ... who else do we think?
Is this the time you choose to abandon the Jimmmmm wagon?vote: mathdude
Are you trying to do a faust? I had to go back to page 4 (and I do 50 post pages) to find your last contributions, and math was not mentioned.
vote: gkrieg
I am here and have read. I worked 12 hours until 2am last night, am working 10 hours until midnight today and need to start getting ready soon. So I have reasons for where I voted that I want to share but just literally have not been able to sit at a desktop to write them down.
I can not do this game playing my style phone posting, but I'm hoping to get a couple hours tomorrow morning.
I find MiX lumping me in with the lurkers to be silly on its face. Time will tell I will blow your word count out of the water 8)
I wasn't trying to call you a lurker, but i understand that it looks like I did.
Higher post count than me? Over my dead body! :P
Why did I vote you again?
Vote: EFHW
I am here and have read. I worked 12 hours until 2am last night, am working 10 hours until midnight today and need to start getting ready soon. So I have reasons for where I voted that I want to share but just literally have not been able to sit at a desktop to write them down.
I can not do this game playing my style phone posting, but I'm hoping to get a couple hours tomorrow morning.
I find MiX lumping me in with the lurkers to be silly on its face. Time will tell I will blow your word count out of the water 8)
I wasn't trying to call you a lurker, but i understand that it looks like I did.
Higher post count than me? Over my dead body! :P
Why did I vote you again?
Vote: EFHW
Does this vote mean you are insisting I choose between faust and Jimmmmm, and can't look anywhere else? We have 48 hours left. Gkrieg has not gotten any attention and is being scummy. Could say the same about Lalight, in fact. I'm not going to vote faust today. I might go back to Jimmmmm. I am feeling uncomfortable ever since joth got involved.
PPE: See this post
Does this vote mean you are insisting I choose between faust and Jimmmmm, and can't look anywhere else? We have 48 hours left. Gkrieg has not gotten any attention and is being scummy. Could say the same about Lalight, in fact. I'm not going to vote faust today. I might go back to Jimmmmm. I am feeling uncomfortable ever since joth got involved.
PPE: See this post
LL/iguana/Swowl/gkrieg/ebecause they weren't talked about much, then proceeded to vote for the most talked about within that group, and now is back to voting for the player who got the most votes this game and is not part of that group mentioned above - and that's after she did what he wanted and went from voting his supposed townread Jimmmmm to voting gkrieg.
No, I quoted the post I intended to. What was the reason for your vote, if I am wrong that it was my leaving the Jimmmmm wagon? I might have made an erroneous assumption.
In fact, Vote: faust. Scum or anti-Town, you don't get a free pass just because you want one.@Jimmmmm, at what point did you start feeling angry at faust?
@faust, same question re: Jimmmmm.
I am willing to policy exile EFHW for this post.
MiX has decided he want to look atLL/iguana/Swowl/gkrieg/ebecause they weren't talked about much, then proceeded to vote for the most talked about within that group, and now is back to voting for the player who got the most votes this game and is not part of that group mentioned above - and that's after she did what he wanted and went from voting his supposed townread Jimmmmm to voting gkrieg.
I guess that means he took my criticism to heart and decided he needs to do something to surprise me.
Swowl is not here at all.I thought if last game taught you anything, it would be to not give people who aren't around a free pass.
Why do you want to know?I guess that means he took my criticism to heart and decided he needs to do something to surprise me.
Were you actually surprised by this?
Swowl is not here at all.I thought if last game taught you anything, it would be to not give people who aren't around a free pass.Why do you want to know?I guess that means he took my criticism to heart and decided he needs to do something to surprise me.
Were you actually surprised by this?
Idk if this needs to be said to a bunch of vets, but policy exiles are scummy because they give scum cover to get someone exiled without committing to that person being scum. We get one exile per game day. It’s not pro town to use it for anything other than pursuing our collective wincon.
Idk if this needs to be said to a bunch of vets, but policy exiles are scummy because they give scum cover to get someone exiled without committing to that person being scum. We get one exile per game day. It’s not pro town to use it for anything other than pursuing our collective wincon.
vote: MiX. I did apologize.
Honestly, if we want to exile someone for thread health, Jimmmmm's the way to go.I had my disagreements with Jimmmmm, but this is uncalled for.
Honestly, if we want to exile someone for thread health, Jimmmmm's the way to go.I had my disagreements with Jimmmmm, but this is uncalled for.
Yes, I'm sure exiling a scum will do a lot for our ability to see who the remaining scum is.
I am not following your argument here, MiX. Can you explain what you mean? I am a fab of more active Jimmmm.
Honestly, if we want to exile someone for thread health, Jimmmmm's the way to go.I had my disagreements with Jimmmmm, but this is uncalled for.
Not because of him, but to allow us to see other people as scum.
Honestly, if we want to exile someone for thread health, Jimmmmm's the way to go.I had my disagreements with Jimmmmm, but this is uncalled for.
Not because of him, but to allow us to see other people as scum.
This one
People seem to scumread Jimmmmm. This seems to be happening all the way from the start of the game. Unlike EFHW, people in this line of thinking don't seem to be thinking past it. So if this becomes a problem, we might as well exile Jimmmmm.By "people", are you referring to anyone other than me?
People seem to scumread Jimmmmm. This seems to be happening all the way from the start of the game. Unlike EFHW, people in this line of thinking don't seem to be thinking past it. So if this becomes a problem, we might as well exile Jimmmmm.By "people", are you referring to anyone other than me?
joth has definitely not been voting for (or, to my knowledge, scumreading) Jimmmmm since the start of the game. Indeed, he was part of the EFHW wagon before.People seem to scumread Jimmmmm. This seems to be happening all the way from the start of the game. Unlike EFHW, people in this line of thinking don't seem to be thinking past it. So if this becomes a problem, we might as well exile Jimmmmm.By "people", are you referring to anyone other than me?
joth as well, it seems like.
Gkrieg doesn't have the classic "I will now reread the whole game" posts, but his posts so far seem townie. I like the EFHW opinions, for example.
Idk if this needs to be said to a bunch of vets, but policy exiles are scummy because they give scum cover to get someone exiled without committing to that person being scum. We get one exile per game day. It’s not pro town to use it for anything other than pursuing our collective wincon.
vote: MiX. I did apologize.
Sorry: to clarify, I'm scumreading that post. I'm not trying to policy exile you anymore.
Honestly, if we want to exile someone for thread health, Jimmmmm's the way to go.
vote: mathdude
Are you trying to do a faust? I had to go back to page 4 (and I do 50 post pages) to find your last contributions, and math was not mentioned.
vote: gkrieg
Jimmmmm is a very easy D1 misexile. He can't solve then and so he doesn't have much else other than activity tells. It's also a voice worth shutting down for later in the game. This is similar to gkrieg, honestly.
Yes he can be scum here. But there's not much else saying he's scum other than that.
Faust is only reading half of my posts and that's super townie. I understand scumreading me for buddying him, but saying I've been overemphasizing being town!MiX just ignores everything I've done into "it's townie, therefore it's scummy".
Ok, so the scum team is MiX-Jimmmm and ... who else do we think?
How to scum:
- Buddy faust
- Vote partner
- Wait for partner to get in an argument with faust
- Say they're both town and unvote
- Open up the option to bus
- ???
- Let Jimmmmm be exiled D1
- Infinite towncredThe mathdude wagon is extremely interesting. It's entirely composed of what faust would call lurkers.
Too interesting to give half-baked opinions on it.
Is he scummy? Or he just has a scummy wagon?
He, not e
Neither. Not sure.
I looked at the last 2 of his scum games: RMM56 and RMM54. Jimmmm was Serial Killer in RMM56, so that's maybe not the best representation. In that game, there is definitely a flurry of activity from Jimmmmm after he gets his first wagon (read from here (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20258.msg843931#msg843931)).
In RMM54, he similarly reacts with wallposting to pressure, see e.g. this post (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=19849.msg813793#msg813793) coming after a push, which is significantly longer than anything he posted before in that game. It's followed by more rereads.
Gkrieg doesn't have the classic "I will now reread the whole game" posts, but his posts so far seem townie. I like the EFHW opinions, for example.
I mean I did reread the game and post about it but no one seemed to respond much to the posts.
Wow, a lot going on today. I like it. It actually gives us something to look back at D2! (Granted, I was pretty poor at putting the pieces together last game, so there's nowhere to go but up).
I do like that Jimmmmm's trying to be active, but...I looked at the last 2 of his scum games: RMM56 and RMM54. Jimmmm was Serial Killer in RMM56, so that's maybe not the best representation. In that game, there is definitely a flurry of activity from Jimmmmm after he gets his first wagon (read from here (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20258.msg843931#msg843931)).
In RMM54, he similarly reacts with wallposting to pressure, see e.g. this post (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=19849.msg813793#msg813793) coming after a push, which is significantly longer than anything he posted before in that game. It's followed by more rereads.
This seems pretty convincing. This is almost exactly what seemed to happen here!
Vote: Jimmmmm
We should look at LL/iguana/Swowl/gkrieg/e then. Yes, I excluded Didds, but only because I actually remember joth's post about her.
We have a little over 2 days (about 52 hours, I believe). I'm not saying we shouldn't change directions - there is still enough time for that. In fact, we should definitely look at these people. But we need to do it soon, and get responses and opinions today, rather than waiting until the final few hours.
I believe there was an early mini-wagon on iguana, that fizzled as quick as it started.
Were there votes on e today too? Or am I thinking of the previous game?
And someone policy voted for LL early, but that wasn't anything for discussion, I don't believe.
Gkrieg doesn't have the classic "I will now reread the whole game" posts, but his posts so far seem townie. I like the EFHW opinions, for example.
Because there can't be anything in the current game that is scummy.so anyway faust is town & Didds is town & MiX is ??? but he's being pleasant and helpful.Wait a minute - are you salty too?
idk, nobody's pinging me overmuch, which makes sense because none of you are terrible at this game.
Vote: EFHW
This doesn't seem like scum!EFHW. Too bold.
I feel like I'm seeing a lot more of EFHW D1 than is usual.
vote: mathdude
Honestly, if we want to exile someone for thread health, Jimmmmm's the way to go.I had my disagreements with Jimmmmm, but this is uncalled for.
Not because of him, but to allow us to see other people as scum.
This one
People seem to scumread Jimmmmm. This seems to be happening all the way from the start of the game. Unlike EFHW, people in this line of thinking don't seem to be thinking past it. So if this becomes a problem, we might as well exile Jimmmmm.
The case on Jimmmmm is not just that he's being active. It's that he's being active in a certain way in response to pressure that is consistent with his past play and inconsistent with this past town play. That's like a very good day 1 case. I appreciate faust doing the work to cross-reference it.
On top of that, he has:
-advocated for a policy exile in a really noncommittal way
-OMGUS voted for faust during their exchange
-been soft-defended by MiX in exactly the way that scum defends a partner (trying to deflect the exile without actually defending the player as townie).
There's like a lot here, fam. This isn't just nonsense.
You can brutally bus a partner D1 and ride the towncred to a victory. Been done with me before.
I might go back to Jimmmmm. I am feeling uncomfortable ever since joth got involved.
-policy exile talk is just bad play, but both town and scum engage in bad play
-omgus is what it is, again, not scum or town tell to me
Honestly, if we want to exile someone for thread health, Jimmmmm's the way to go.I had my disagreements with Jimmmmm, but this is uncalled for.
Not because of him, but to allow us to see other people as scum.
This one
People seem to scumread Jimmmmm. This seems to be happening all the way from the start of the game. Unlike EFHW, people in this line of thinking don't seem to be thinking past it. So if this becomes a problem, we might as well exile Jimmmmm.
This is absolutely terrible in my opinion. "Oh, feels like everyone thinks they are scum, let's exile and find out"
Feels like the same reason MiX exiled me D1 in wizard of Oz. And then exiled Galzria D2. It felt as though that line of thought is exactly what put town in such a hole they couldn't dig out D3
Let's exile the stuck in the mud people, not their target.
I might go back to Jimmmmm. I am feeling uncomfortable ever since joth got involved.
This is exactly the opposite of what I'm trying to accomplish.
I wanted to contrast this with a town game of Jimmmmm's, and in BM32, he was the D1 misexile, but at no point did that pressure cause a flurry of activity like in the scum games I referenced.
Jimmmm was Serial Killer in RMM56, so that's maybe not the best representation. In that game, there is definitely a flurry of activity from Jimmmmm after he gets his first wagon (read from here (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20258.msg843931#msg843931)).
Okay new plan. Trying to follow along isn't really working, so I'm going to try to get through a re-read of each player before deadline. We have about 5 days, so that means 3-4 re-reads per day. Starting with Dylan.
In RMM54, he similarly reacts with wallposting to pressure, see e.g. this post (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=19849.msg813793#msg813793) coming after a push, which is significantly longer than anything he posted before in that game. It's followed by more rereads.
Checking in. I'm away at the moment; I get home tomorrow so I should catch up properly by the weekend.
Checking in. I'm away at the moment; I get home tomorrow so I should catch up properly by the weekend.
The case on Jimmmmm is not just that he's being active. It's that he's being active in a certain way in response to pressure that is consistent with his past play and inconsistent with this past town play. That's like a very good day 1 case. I appreciate faust doing the work to cross-reference it.
My #347 sounds harsh, but I actually like Jimmmm and think he's a smart guy. Just typically unengaged until crunchtime (and liable to being mislynched for it.)
I've realise what I really need to get into a game is for someone to come out gunning for me. It gives me something to focus on apart from "this is a big game with lots of people and I don't even know where to start".
That's actually enough for me to
Vote: Jimmmmmmm
Let's see what you got.
A vote is not gunning for me.
From my PoV:
- If you're town, you need an incentive to play D1. A vote on you means other town/scum can vote on you, creating a sizeable wagon. I think that would force you to pay attention to defend yourself, thus generate more pro-town content from you.
- If you're scum, you need to feel some pressure, even if it's just a vote now, others might join the wagon, forcing you to actually play D1, which, hopefully, makes you drop some scumslips or useful interactions that'll be useful for future days.
So it's strictly better for me to vote for you. Unless I misunderstood what gunning means (maybe it's just someone saying "YOU'RE SCUM YOU'RE SCUM HERE'S 50 REASONS WHY" but I hope not because I can't do that...), this seems to be foolproof, right?
That's more like it. :P
Jimm, I really think is scum.
First off, this is a level of activity I've never seen from Jimm, or least not in recent memory. Jimm is usually town, he usually is pleasant, psuedo-lurking. He's very active here, and this questioning strategy, I've never seen from him. I've been on him since the beginning because of our exchange over me being considered an IC.
Thoughts...
Abnormally high for Jimmmm.
...
It's abnormal because he's scum. Go with the simple explanation!
It's not just that town Jimm is a lurker, it's that his content is mild and unmemorable and inoffensive.
Here, you have been in the driver's seat, and you are raising questions like I've never seen from you before. Yo are different, AND you had the scummy reaction to the prospective Morgrim lynch.
In RMM54, he similarly reacts with wallposting to pressure, see e.g. this post (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=19849.msg813793#msg813793) coming after a push, which is significantly longer than anything he posted before in that game. It's followed by more rereads.
This game I received Day 1 votes from 3 people and my Day 1 consisted of about 6 posts, ending with:Checking in. I'm away at the moment; I get home tomorrow so I should catch up properly by the weekend.
And starting Day 2 with:Checking in. I'm away at the moment; I get home tomorrow so I should catch up properly by the weekend.
After such a Day 1, I am definitely looking to be more active for the rest of the game, regardless of alignment.
I had more activity in the second half of the game, and the majority of that was concentrated on rereading people. My #554 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=19849.msg813512#msg813512) came before all but one of the Day 2 votes on me, and while it wasn't as long as the mentioned post, it was far longer and more substantial than anything before it. If there was a line between my inactivity and my activity that game, it was this post.
I voted for shraeye (who admittedly had just voted for me) due to his interactions with raerae, and he and I later had some back and forth which resulted in him voting for me again, but it didn't last for very long and soon enough I was re-reading someone else. Aside from the argument with shraeye, which started from responses to my giving reads, I don't see anywhere where I engaged with the pressure on me or those applying the pressure.
Sorry, behind again. I was mid-way through catching up when the site went down. At this stage the case on raerae seems a bit of a stretch to me but I'll try to look into it more tomorrow night.
because I think I see careful maneuvering that an experienced player who hasn't played for a bit might try. Pick a fight, be righteous about how town should play, buddy someone who voted you (me), and seem to move on with a level head.
You are free to offer up a better example.I wanted to contrast this with a town game of Jimmmmm's, and in BM32, he was the D1 misexile, but at no point did that pressure cause a flurry of activity like in the scum games I referenced.
BM32 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20724.0) is not an example of anything. It was a Bastard game in which I had what felt like a crippling post restriction and I was somewhat relieved when it was over for me.
Basically I got a scum result on ash Night 1, and spent Day 2 arguing with him, waiting until most of the way through the Day before claiming the result.Sorry, but I'm not convinced that a game in which you had a scum result on another player is the best comparison to this situation. Obviously you are going to be more forceful under those circumstances.
You are free to offer up a better example.
Basically I got a scum result on ash Night 1, and spent Day 2 arguing with him, waiting until most of the way through the Day before claiming the result.Sorry, but I'm not convinced that a game in which you had a scum result on another player is the best comparison to this situation. Obviously you are going to be more forceful under those circumstances.
What does scum want to do? They want to
A) Make sure the exile is a town player
B) Make sure that they don't appear to be the one who drove that exile when the player flipped town.
So any strategy that helps accomplish both those goals is not just bad play, but scummy play.
Everything MiX has done this game feels like he's performing town. The overinflated townread on me. The pivot toward "exile all lurkers" (without using that terminology). Nothing MiX has done this game is surprising because he's not actually concerned with finding scum.
Oh man, feels good to have town!faust back. Welcome!
MiX is scum but it's not the exile we want right now.
Amazing.Vote: Jimmmmm
Vote: Jimmmmm
I have reached the critical point of faust that I only want to misexile them.
Faust, do you think this discussion will help catch a wolf?
I don't know about you, faust, but this post tells me you're both town.
I am disappointed in you, MiX. Two people having a drawn-out emotional discussion and then a third player going "I think this is TvT" is such a meme. I expected better.
It's a meme for a reason. I think your particular way of reacting to Jimmmmm makes him town. And of course, it makes you town too.
But I don't really like how there's only been 2 wagons this entire day, and at least one of them seems to be entirely at random.
He waa obviously scum last game. There are key differences in town!faust and scum!faust that makes this strategy pro-town.
Can anyone remember reads being given to players that aren't faust/Jimmmmm/EFHW/MiX/joth/math?
I did scumread e, but I can't remember much else.
joth says Didds is Towny, although that wavered a bit.
Didds says that LL and iguana are Towny (along with others on the list).
Thanks.
We should look at LL/iguana/Swowl/gkrieg/e then. Yes, I excluded Didds, but only because I actually remember joth's post about her.
Also, given that most of this came after faust's initial "MiX is scum" statement, I see no reason to believe that it's not confirmation bias at best, or worse simply trying to justify his strategy.You know, you really know how to make me regret giving reasons.
I don't see myself as lurker in this game.No offense but I doubt self-perception is a good indicator here. This is akin to noone seeing themselves as a bad person (more precisely, some people do but they are rarely the actual bad people).
Also, given that most of this came after faust's initial "MiX is scum" statement, I see no reason to believe that it's not confirmation bias at best, or worse simply trying to justify his strategy.You know, you really know how to make me regret giving reasons.
I don't see myself as lurker in this game.No offense but I doubt self-perception is a good indicator here. This is akin to noone seeing themselves as a bad person (more precisely, some people do but they are rarely the actual bad people).
Basically I got a scum result on ash Night 1, and spent Day 2 arguing with him, waiting until most of the way through the Day before claiming the result.Sorry, but I'm not convinced that a game in which you had a scum result on another player is the best comparison to this situation. Obviously you are going to be more forceful under those circumstances.
I give reasons and you basically say "oh doesn't matter, it all confirmation bias". Like, if that's the level of engagement I can expect then I might as well not give my reasons.Also, given that most of this came after faust's initial "MiX is scum" statement, I see no reason to believe that it's not confirmation bias at best, or worse simply trying to justify his strategy.You know, you really know how to make me regret giving reasons.
Why?
What about the rest of what I said?The rest of what you said was picking apart my wording choices without engaging with the actual substance of what I said.
Also, why would you want to act differently based on the opinion of one person you say is scum?I'm no longer voting you, if you noticed. I'm cured!
You don't think I'm scum?Well, I believe you are more likely town than scum.
What about the rest of what I said?The rest of what you said was picking apart my wording choices without engaging with the actual substance of what I said.
I don't see myself as lurker in this game.No offense but I doubt self-perception is a good indicator here. This is akin to noone seeing themselves as a bad person (more precisely, some people do but they are rarely the actual bad people).
What does scum want to do? They want to
A) Make sure the exile is a town player
B) Make sure that they don't appear to be the one who drove that exile when the player flipped town.
So any strategy that helps accomplish both those goals is not just bad play, but scummy play.
Trying to exile Town faust with minimal support based entirely on argumentation is a mountain that scum me just does not need.
They aren't lurking, either. They have been not available.I don't see myself as lurker in this game.No offense but I doubt self-perception is a good indicator here. This is akin to noone seeing themselves as a bad person (more precisely, some people do but they are rarely the actual bad people).
LaLight isn't a lurker this game. They're just flying under the radar. Same for everyone in that list (except Swowl and iguana are actually lurking).
They're just flying under the radar.
Yes I think you missed the substance. In my view the substance is exactly the two sentences you labeled "not substance". The other two are just examples of that behaviour. So talking about how I am so easy to read and he's figured my out and I'm town is like trying to convey that town!MiX swagger, but it's does not ring genuine. Trying to pivot in the face of two long-standing wagons has the same ring of something that scum!MiX thinks will look townie, but his heart isn't in it, and it shows.What about the rest of what I said?The rest of what you said was picking apart my wording choices without engaging with the actual substance of what I said.
Must have missed the substance of what you said then. I'll try again.
"Everything MiX has done this game feels like he's performing town."
This feels like a heading rather than substance (ie what will follow is how MiX is is performing town)".
"The overinflated townread on me."
I guess the substance is the suggestion that MiX has a stronger Townread on you than he ought to if he was Town. His posts early in the Day make this difficult for me to judge because they provide no context but seem confident. If you're talking about these posts it would great if you could indicate how they show an overinflated Townread, and how you know how seriously to take them. If you're talking about the post-argument posts suggesting we're both Town it'd be great if you said more about that since you didn't say much at the time other than the argument is NAI and MiX's response is a meme.
'The pivot toward "exile all lurkers" (without using that terminology).'
I didn't mean to harp on the "exile all lurkers" term if that's what you're talking about. Whether we're talking about lurkers or just those who have avoided the limelight, why is it scummy of MiX to decide that he wants to look at and/or exile someone from among them?
"Nothing MiX has done this game is surprising because he's not actually concerned with finding scum."
This feels like a conclusion rather than substance.
Yes I think you missed the substance. In my view the substance is exactly the two sentences you labeled "not substance". The other two are just examples of that behaviour. So talking about how I am so easy to read and he's figured my out and I'm town is like trying to convey that town!MiX swagger, but it's does not ring genuine. Trying to pivot in the face of two long-standing wagons has the same ring of something that scum!MiX thinks will look townie, but his heart isn't in it, and it shows.
Ultimately it's all gut feeling of MiX not being genuine, which is why it does not do any good to give these reasons. When I posted I just wanted to give people something to focus their attention on, but I can't explain to you how it is scummy if you don't see it for yourself.
What is your read on MiX anyway?
Answer me some of these questions, and then you can tell me I'm scum. Before that, I'm just town.You're scum.
Answer me some of these questions, and then you can tell me I'm scum. Before that, I'm just town.You're scum.
Ok, that was a really admirable defense Jimmmmm mounted. But… it’s the sort of admirable defense I tend to mount as scum. But I feel like an ass saying that because I get how it feels like confirmation bias from Jim’s seat.
Also, given that most of this came after faust's initial "MiX is scum" statement, I see no reason to believe that it's not confirmation bias at best, or worse simply trying to justify his strategy.You know, you really know how to make me regret giving reasons.
iguanaiguana (1):
EFHW (2): WestCoastDidds, MiX
Jimmmmm (4): jotheonah, faust, mathdude, EFHW
faust (2): Jimmmmm
mathdude (3): 2.71828....., iguanaiguana, gkrieg13
MiX (1): LaLight
Not Voting (1): Swowl
With 12 alive, it takes 7 to exile. Day 1 ends September 18, 2021, 03:00:00 pm
I can't see scum!joth flipping today.
I can't see scum!joth flipping today.
Do you mean this if joth is scum you can't see him being exiled Today?
I can't see scum!joth flipping today.
Do you mean that if joth is scum you can't see him being exiled Today?
Jimmmm, can you go read EFHW and see what you think? I need some fresh eyes and you have time on your hands.
MiX, how are you feeling about Joth?
Jimmmm, can you go read EFHW and see what you think? I need some fresh eyes and you have time on your hands.
Sorry, got PPEd there….
MiX…. What’s your sense on EFHW? I really don’t want to be stubborn, but I don’t think jimmm or faust are scum. And I’m just not sure about Joth.
In fact, Vote: faust. Scum or anti-Town, you don't get a free pass just because you want one.@Jimmmmm, at what point did you start feeling angry at faust?
@faust, same question re: Jimmmmm.
Sorry, got PPEd there….
MiX…. What’s your sense on EFHW? I really don’t want to be stubborn, but I don’t think jimmm or faust are scum. And I’m just not sure about Joth.In fact, Vote: faust. Scum or anti-Town, you don't get a free pass just because you want one.@Jimmmmm, at what point did you start feeling angry at faust?
@faust, same question re: Jimmmmm.
I'm scumreading the hell out of this post: it serves no purpose and simply extends a discussion that isn't productive. It sounds like the perfect post for scum!EFHW to do if both faust and Jimmmmm are town (which I think they are).
And I'm also sheeping you.
vote: EFHW
vote: EFHW
faust, besides MiX, who is on your scummy list?Why do you want to know?
Sorry, got PPEd there….
MiX…. What’s your sense on EFHW? I really don’t want to be stubborn, but I don’t think jimmm or faust are scum. And I’m just not sure about Joth.In fact, Vote: faust. Scum or anti-Town, you don't get a free pass just because you want one.@Jimmmmm, at what point did you start feeling angry at faust?
@faust, same question re: Jimmmmm.
I'm scumreading the hell out of this post: it serves no purpose and simply extends a discussion that isn't productive. It sounds like the perfect post for scum!EFHW to do if both faust and Jimmmmm are town (which I think they are).
And I'm also sheeping you.
Sorry, got PPEd there….
MiX…. What’s your sense on EFHW? I really don’t want to be stubborn, but I don’t think jimmm or faust are scum. And I’m just not sure about Joth.In fact, Vote: faust. Scum or anti-Town, you don't get a free pass just because you want one.@Jimmmmm, at what point did you start feeling angry at faust?
@faust, same question re: Jimmmmm.
I'm scumreading the hell out of this post: it serves no purpose and simply extends a discussion that isn't productive. It sounds like the perfect post for scum!EFHW to do if both faust and Jimmmmm are town (which I think they are).
And I'm also sheeping you.
Couldn't you had read that before? Was the question really necessary?
But you're wrong. Imagine you are trying to figure out if two arguers are being genuine in their postings of high emotion. It helps a lot to know what set them off. faust got mad when Jimmmmm unfairly accused him of going down a rabbit hole. Ok. Jimmmmm said he wasn't really angry, he was "leaning into the argument." I think that's scummy.
Jimmmmm could do all of this recently towny stuff as scum with his eyes closed and one hand tied behind his back.
Sorry, got PPEd there….
MiX…. What’s your sense on EFHW? I really don’t want to be stubborn, but I don’t think jimmm or faust are scum. And I’m just not sure about Joth.In fact, Vote: faust. Scum or anti-Town, you don't get a free pass just because you want one.@Jimmmmm, at what point did you start feeling angry at faust?
@faust, same question re: Jimmmmm.
I'm scumreading the hell out of this post: it serves no purpose and simply extends a discussion that isn't productive. It sounds like the perfect post for scum!EFHW to do if both faust and Jimmmmm are town (which I think they are).
And I'm also sheeping you.
But you're wrong. Imagine you are trying to figure out if two arguers are being genuine in their postings of high emotion. It helps a lot to know what set them off. faust got mad when Jimmmmm unfairly accused him of going down a rabbit hole. Ok. Jimmmmm said he wasn't really angry, he was "leaning into the argument." I think that's scummy.
Jimmmmm could do all of this recently towny stuff as scum with his eyes closed and one hand tied behind his back.
Couldn't you had read that before? Was the question really necessary?
I feel like I should clarify some of this.
The joth vote was a tiny scum ping which was big enough to warrant a first vote. You could call it semi-RVS.
#158 was really less about scumhunting and more about trying to engage with the game and not knowing how to. The main thing I want out of a Day 1 is to keep up and be engaged in discussions. "[player] is [alignmenty] for [reasons]" is far more helpful to that end than simply "[player] is [alignment]". It's also worth noting that I was not talking about voting without reason, rather making statements with some degree of apparent certainty.
The vote on EFHW was a "reward" for WCD giving reasons for a read. I did not consider the state of wagons at the time.
PPE
Couldn't you had read that before? Was the question really necessary?
So this is mostly to say I'm starting to become aware of my biases in trying to read people.
-snip
I believe I have fallen victim to this many times. When I start finding someone scummy, I often find it very hard to look at them objectively again. I just find more things that I think are scummy. And it gets worse if I start digging in and posting reasons for my scum read on them.
-snip
Couldn't you had read that before? Was the question really necessary?
I didn't know either thing before I asked. I'm sorry there were more argument posts, but there weren't THAT many, and I know I gained some insight from it. What do you see as the problem?
faust, besides MiX, who is on your scummy list?Why do you want to know?
I might go back to Jimmmmm. I am feeling uncomfortable ever since joth got involved.
This is exactly the opposite of what I'm trying to accomplish.
Of course. Your arguments are not very strong though, because Jimmmmm is an experienced player and OMGUS and policy voting are newbie reactions. This makes me concerned that you are scum trying to misexile him.
I'm talking at cross-purposes with myself here, however. I actually do think Jimmmmm is scummy -- because I think I see careful maneuvering that an experienced player who hasn't played for a bit might try. Pick a fight, be righteous about how town should play, buddy someone who voted you (me), and seem to move on with a level head.
vote: Jimmmmm
Who else were the current wagons? Oh, math. Hmmm…. I haven’t carefully considered Math.
The case there was he was all meta and not moving the game forward?
I’m not sure that is worse than the other under the radars who are not moving the game forward. Is it worse to be trying to engage than just not around?
Sorry, got PPEd there….
MiX…. What’s your sense on EFHW? I really don’t want to be stubborn, but I don’t think jimmm or faust are scum. And I’m just not sure about Joth.In fact, Vote: faust. Scum or anti-Town, you don't get a free pass just because you want one.@Jimmmmm, at what point did you start feeling angry at faust?
@faust, same question re: Jimmmmm.
I'm scumreading the hell out of this post: it serves no purpose and simply extends a discussion that isn't productive. It sounds like the perfect post for scum!EFHW to do if both faust and Jimmmmm are town (which I think they are).
And I'm also sheeping you.
Sorry, got PPEd there….
MiX…. What’s your sense on EFHW? I really don’t want to be stubborn, but I don’t think jimmm or faust are scum. And I’m just not sure about Joth.In fact, Vote: faust. Scum or anti-Town, you don't get a free pass just because you want one.@Jimmmmm, at what point did you start feeling angry at faust?
@faust, same question re: Jimmmmm.
I'm scumreading the hell out of this post: it serves no purpose and simply extends a discussion that isn't productive. It sounds like the perfect post for scum!EFHW to do if both faust and Jimmmmm are town (which I think they are).
And I'm also sheeping you.
This is definitely the kind of thing EFHW is aware of and chooses to do as scum.
What are your thoughts on mathdude? (I may have missed them in the thread.)
We should look at LL/iguana/Swowl/gkrieg/e then. Yes, I excluded Didds, but only because I actually remember joth's post about her.
We have a little over 2 days (about 52 hours, I believe). I'm not saying we shouldn't change directions - there is still enough time for that. In fact, we should definitely look at these people. But we need to do it soon, and get responses and opinions today, rather than waiting until the final few hours.
I believe there was an early mini-wagon on iguana, that fizzled as quick as it started.
Were there votes on e today too? Or am I thinking of the previous game?
And someone policy voted for LL early, but that wasn't anything for discussion, I don't believe.
Sorry, got PPEd there….
MiX…. What’s your sense on EFHW? I really don’t want to be stubborn, but I don’t think jimmm or faust are scum. And I’m just not sure about Joth.In fact, Vote: faust. Scum or anti-Town, you don't get a free pass just because you want one.@Jimmmmm, at what point did you start feeling angry at faust?
@faust, same question re: Jimmmmm.
I'm scumreading the hell out of this post: it serves no purpose and simply extends a discussion that isn't productive. It sounds like the perfect post for scum!EFHW to do if both faust and Jimmmmm are town (which I think they are).
And I'm also sheeping you.
This is definitely the kind of thing EFHW is aware of and chooses to do as scum.
What are your thoughts on mathdude? (I may have missed them in the thread.)
None.
Can someone tell me why mathdude is scummy?
And the big argument on jimmmm is that he's active?
I don't know...I think if we're taking a shot in the dark someone like Swowl who is just busy elsewhere (which is always super good scum cover, if need be) seems like less of a loss.
This post is why I'm voting mathdude. Deciding to EOL, and actively pushing people toward it is a "townie" thing to do that scum tend to do more than town. Specifically so they can avoid commenting on other wagons, or so they can look like they are doing something without actually doing something. Specifically when they don't offer any direction on which of the ~6 people that could be voted for.
Especially saying, "we should definitely look at these people [...] soon, and get responses and opinions today, rather than waiting until the final few hours." instead of saying who out of those people is scummy.
yeah my towncore RN is iguana & Didds. It was faust too but then I second-guessed myself into oblivion, sorry faust. But I will happily sheep Didds and iguana today.
The case on Jimmmmm is not just that he's being active. It's that he's being active in a certain way in response to pressure that is consistent with his past play and inconsistent with this past town play. That's like a very good day 1 case. I appreciate faust doing the work to cross-reference it.
On top of that, he has:
-advocated for a policy exile in a really noncommittal way
-OMGUS voted for faust during their exchange
-been soft-defended by MiX in exactly the way that scum defends a partner (trying to deflect the exile without actually defending the player as townie).
There's like a lot here, fam. This isn't just nonsense.
I don’t think you’re a jerk, iguana!
Okay looks like gkrieg is here so I will read him next.
General impression: gkrieg's posts are like a wall I can't see through at all. So I am going to force myself to read him based on his reads.
So he's defending EFHW... scummy I guess?
But he's voting Mathdude... towny I guess?
And he's back right now and pushing Math hard.
This post is why I'm voting mathdude. Deciding to EOL, and actively pushing people toward it is a "townie" thing to do that scum tend to do more than town. Specifically so they can avoid commenting on other wagons, or so they can look like they are doing something without actually doing something. Specifically when they don't offer any direction on which of the ~6 people that could be voted for.
Especially saying, "we should definitely look at these people [...] soon, and get responses and opinions today, rather than waiting until the final few hours." instead of saying who out of those people is scummy.
Ok... this is almost a stupid reason to quote this post but what does EOL mean? I literally can't parse a word of this post because I don't know that acronym.
Ok and it looks like in his most recent post... he's actually scumreading EFHW? So that should be townie... except it doesn't make sense that he was defending EFHW from a wagon two days ago and now he's interrogating the people who are defending EFHW. So question #2 for gkrieg, what's up with that?
And yeah... gkrieg's reads seem townie but his posts are null. I don't think I have the capacity to read gkrieg until we see flips.
Math should be town here. His vote and push on me are very easy for scum!math to fake as he seems very comfortable doing it, but he seems genuine to me. Particularly this post:math, were you seriously pushing MiX, or was that more RVS?If LL hadn't joined the vote already, I would have already moved on. But since there were 2 votes, I thought I'd see if anyone else was interested in joining too.
So maybe RVS? ButI don’t know if I believe in RVS anymore.Ditto?
Which shows serious doubt over who to vote and how to proceed out of RVS.
It's not like I have evidence saying otherwise. But I don't really like how there's only been 2 wagons this entire day, and at least one of them seems to be entirely at random.
The mathdude wagon is extremely interesting. It's entirely composed of what faust would call lurkers.
Too interesting to give half-baked opinions on it.
So there's 4 viable wagons: EFHW, Jimmmmm, math and MiX. Out of these, EFHW is the only one that can be scum. There, I said it. I'll just reread all of them anyway.
vote: EFHW
Oh, this is a scumslip from joth.
I wonder if scum!joth's still this obvious...
Let's just look at the wagons:iguanaiguana (1):
EFHW (2): WestCoastDidds, MiX
Jimmmmm (4): jotheonah, faust, mathdude, EFHW
faust (2): Jimmmmm
mathdude (3): 2.71828....., iguanaiguana, gkrieg13
MiX (1): LaLight
Not Voting (1): Swowl
With 12 alive, it takes 7 to exile. Day 1 ends September 18, 2021, 03:00:00 pm
So there's 4 viable wagons: EFHW, Jimmmmm, math and MiX. Out of these, EFHW is the only one that can be scum. There, I said it. I'll just reread all of them anyway.
The people under the radar have either been on VLA or are actually townie (or both, see: Didds) so we can let them slide for today. faust is town so let's not do that, besides it's never correct to exile them D1. And I kinda agree with e that joth should get a D1 pass, but it's mostly because I can't see scum!joth flipping today.
Which exchange? Everything I read from jimmmm screamed town
Who else were the current wagons? Oh, math. Hmmm…. I haven’t carefully considered Math.
The case there was he was all meta and not moving the game forward?
I’m not sure that is worse than the other under the radars who are not moving the game forward. Is it worse to be trying to engage than just not around?
Blah, I missed swowl.
I think WCD was right about swowl. Swowl's our best shot in the dark exile, and would serve him right for not showing up when he said he would. But also it's a jerk move to exile someone just for being busy IRL when he's repeatedly like "Hey, I'll get to this later."
So maybe WCD is the jerk, not me.
-snip-
Long post about me
...
Who else were the current wagons? Oh, math. Hmmm…. I haven’t carefully considered Math.
The case there was he was all meta and not moving the game forward?
I’m not sure that is worse than the other under the radars who are not moving the game forward. Is it worse to be trying to engage than just not around?
To me it is not that math is "all meta and not moving the game forward", it is the way he was posting. Saying that we should consider exiling one of the 5 or 6 lurkers in a big list, without giving any reasons, or even giving one out of the list.
It's a scum tactic to say "let's look at this group", and then not actually do it themselves. At best, it causes people to voice their opinions on lurkers (which isn't amazing), but it is just way too non-committal.
-snip-
Long post about me
...
Even after all this, I still can't figure out if you find me scummy or not. I think you went back and forth 3 or 4 times, got stuck on last game a bit too long, and then couldn't decide. But after reading your posts on other people too, you seem to be in the same boat with your reads on a lot of people. Seems hedgy overall to me.
PPE Swowl's post
We should look at LL/iguana/Swowl/gkrieg/e then. Yes, I excluded Didds, but only because I actually remember joth's post about her.
We have a little over 2 days (about 52 hours, I believe). I'm not saying we shouldn't change directions - there is still enough time for that. In fact, we should definitely look at these people. But we need to do it soon, and get responses and opinions today, rather than waiting until the final few hours.
I believe there was an early mini-wagon on iguana, that fizzled as quick as it started.
Were there votes on e today too? Or am I thinking of the previous game?
And someone policy voted for LL early, but that wasn't anything for discussion, I don't believe.
This is the hedgy post.
-snip-
Long post about me
...
Even after all this, I still can't figure out if you find me scummy or not. I think you went back and forth 3 or 4 times, got stuck on last game a bit too long, and then couldn't decide. But after reading your posts on other people too, you seem to be in the same boat with your reads on a lot of people. Seems hedgy overall to me.
PPE Swowl's post
Let me clarify. You are scummy for voting Jim when you did the first time, and you are scummy for sheeping faust and revoting Jim after unvoting. You are especially scummy if Jim is town, which is something I obviously can't completely figure out yet (It's D1, how am I supposed to be sure about anyone?), but think is true.
I am voting you. So you can be sure I think you are scummy.
Blah, I missed swowl.
I think WCD was right about swowl. Swowl's our best shot in the dark exile, and would serve him right for not showing up when he said he would. But also it's a jerk move to exile someone just for being busy IRL when he's repeatedly like "Hey, I'll get to this later."
So maybe WCD is the jerk, not me.
Blah, I missed swowl.
I think WCD was right about swowl. Swowl's our best shot in the dark exile, and would serve him right for not showing up when he said he would. But also it's a jerk move to exile someone just for being busy IRL when he's repeatedly like "Hey, I'll get to this later."
So maybe WCD is the jerk, not me.
Up to this point, your read on almost everyone seemed to hone on how they looked at me. You are really tunneling down on me, aren't you? Are you scum trying to buddy (or I guess anti-buddy) me, in case you get caught so it looks like I'm a partner? Or are you just a mistaken townie gone down too far? Open up and start looking at people outside of their read on me. Because if you are town, this is how you drag us down to a quick loss. Scum don't even need to do anything.
It's like the faust/Jimmmmm thing... if both town, scum would have happily let us all camp there the full D1.
I can think of one fool-proof way to work out Jim's alignment.
MiX is also here... I really don't want to read MiX.
So reading MiX sucks because I've never had to do it before. Last game I just knew he was town and I was like "haha he is town but he is a wrongo" when actually... well... enough about that.
Much has been made about MiX's super-early-townread of faust. But... isn't that what MiX is notorious for? I don't even play with him and I know that.Math should be town here. His vote and push on me are very easy for scum!math to fake as he seems very comfortable doing it, but he seems genuine to me. Particularly this post:math, were you seriously pushing MiX, or was that more RVS?If LL hadn't joined the vote already, I would have already moved on. But since there were 2 votes, I thought I'd see if anyone else was interested in joining too.
So maybe RVS? ButI don’t know if I believe in RVS anymore.Ditto?
Which shows serious doubt over who to vote and how to proceed out of RVS.
Pulling this up because it seems like an inconsistency. I just read MiX saying that he has literally no thoughts on Math. But earlier he had thoughts on Math enough to make a pretty decent sized post. I realize this was from WAY EARLIER in the game. But... does MiX just forget his own opinion on Math? Maybe if it was a fabricated opinion to start with that would be more likely.
Another inconsitency related to the same "no opinion on mathdude" post:It's not like I have evidence saying otherwise. But I don't really like how there's only been 2 wagons this entire day, and at least one of them seems to be entirely at random.
Earlier in the day... Mix wanted more wagons. When a wagon pops up on Math... he has no opinion? Why wouldn't someone who wants to have more wagons engage with a wagon when a new one shows up?
He also blankly scumreads e... who I think is town here and is also an easy misexile (and has been for years).The mathdude wagon is extremely interesting. It's entirely composed of what faust would call lurkers.
Too interesting to give half-baked opinions on it.
I kind of hate this post. It's hating on e for not investing mountains of time into playing mafia and casting shade on all the math voters.
So there's 4 viable wagons: EFHW, Jimmmmm, math and MiX. Out of these, EFHW is the only one that can be scum. There, I said it. I'll just reread all of them anyway.
Wait.. so this is actually a serious inconsistency. He claims to have JUST REREAD all of EFHW/Jim/Math/Himself? but has no opinions on Math. What? MiX, I demand you give opinions on Math.
vote: EFHW
Oh, this is a scumslip from joth.
I wonder if scum!joth's still this obvious...
What the hell?
Ok, and then the final post saying no opinion on Math that I've already heavily scrutinized.
So I came into this reread positive that I would land flatly null of MiX but I'm actually slightly scumreading him. I can't say it's a strong read though because he's all over the place. And some of it is based on a scum!math partner narrative which I'll admit is terrible to do D1. So... when you remove the confirmation bias effect... slight scum on MiX with a lot of confusion and also please answer my questions.
I can think of one fool-proof way to work out Jim's alignment.
Connect him to a lie detector and ask him straight up?
Who else were the current wagons? Oh, math. Hmmm…. I haven’t carefully considered Math.
The case there was he was all meta and not moving the game forward?
I’m not sure that is worse than the other under the radars who are not moving the game forward. Is it worse to be trying to engage than just not around?
To me it is not that math is "all meta and not moving the game forward", it is the way he was posting. Saying that we should consider exiling one of the 5 or 6 lurkers in a big list, without giving any reasons, or even giving one out of the list.
It's a scum tactic to say "let's look at this group", and then not actually do it themselves. At best, it causes people to voice their opinions on lurkers (which isn't amazing), but it is just way too non-committal.
Actually, I think Joth is town. And that's because... his scum record is truly abysmal. And I read his scum game... the one he told me was the best example of him as scum... and he was just bad scum in that game.
And he does not seem bad in this game. Therefore he's town. Good enough for D1.
That's my general impression.
Blah, I missed swowl.
I think WCD was right about swowl. Swowl's our best shot in the dark exile, and would serve him right for not showing up when he said he would. But also it's a jerk move to exile someone just for being busy IRL when he's repeatedly like "Hey, I'll get to this later."
So maybe WCD is the jerk, not me.
no one is a jerk. It's on me. I apologized, but I will again. Me not being around was not helpful.
Honestly, I should of subbed as it probably would of been a better decision for town to have someone here posting... but I just knew I would be back home and realllllyyyy wanted to be in a game. Sorry.
Mathdude:
-snip-
- #165 policy votes Jimmm at a time that creates a wagon of 3. Kind of some skum vibes on that one. Stuck bc Math is normally pretty meticulous and that feels lazy. But also, IDK if they would be lazy as skum. So just chalk it up as weird/skummy.
White paused for a moment to look out the window and noticed that somehow their course had drifted straight into an asteroid field! They jumped on the weapons and started blasting the asteroids out of the sky, while Cyan jumped in the pilot's seat and charted a new course. At the back of the ship, Lime Green wondered where everyone was, so they sat down and watched the security cameras for a bit.
Vote Count 1.3
iguanaiguana (1): 2.71828.....
EFHW (4): WestCoastDidds, iguanaiguana, jotheonah, Jimmmmm
Jimmmmm (3): faust, MiX, mathdude
faust (1): LaLight
Not Voting (3): Swowl, EFHW, gkrieg13
With 12 alive, it takes 7 to exile. Day 1 ends September 18, 2021, 03:00:00 pm
Third vote is scum
Vote: math
Of the remaining 4, I'm still learning Jimmmmm. I'll go reread them each quick (after replying to a couple other posts here) and see if that changes.... wil have to wait a few hours.
Actually, I think Joth is town. And that's because... his scum record is truly abysmal. And I read his scum game... the one he told me was the best example of him as scum... and he was just bad scum in that game.
And he does not seem bad in this game. Therefore he's town. Good enough for D1.
That's my general impression.
Read this game (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20694.0).
Blah, I missed swowl.
I think WCD was right about swowl. Swowl's our best shot in the dark exile, and would serve him right for not showing up when he said he would. But also it's a jerk move to exile someone just for being busy IRL when he's repeatedly like "Hey, I'll get to this later."
So maybe WCD is the jerk, not me.
Up to this point, your read on almost everyone seemed to hone on how they looked at me. You are really tunneling down on me, aren't you? Are you scum trying to buddy (or I guess anti-buddy) me, in case you get caught so it looks like I'm a partner? Or are you just a mistaken townie gone down too far? Open up and start looking at people outside of their read on me. Because if you are town, this is how you drag us down to a quick loss. Scum don't even need to do anything.
It's like the faust/Jimmmmm thing... if both town, scum would have happily let us all camp there the full D1.
Blah, I missed swowl.
I think WCD was right about swowl. Swowl's our best shot in the dark exile, and would serve him right for not showing up when he said he would. But also it's a jerk move to exile someone just for being busy IRL when he's repeatedly like "Hey, I'll get to this later."
So maybe WCD is the jerk, not me.
Up to this point, your read on almost everyone seemed to hone on how they looked at me. You are really tunneling down on me, aren't you? Are you scum trying to buddy (or I guess anti-buddy) me, in case you get caught so it looks like I'm a partner? Or are you just a mistaken townie gone down too far? Open up and start looking at people outside of their read on me. Because if you are town, this is how you drag us down to a quick loss. Scum don't even need to do anything.
It's like the faust/Jimmmmm thing... if both town, scum would have happily let us all camp there the full D1.
I almost forgot ti actually comment on your Swowl post... at this point, less than 24 hours to deadline, there is no "best shot in the dark exile". We have viaible wagons. We pick the one we think is most likely scum, then get to look back at people D2 based on flip and where they stood in the argument. Exile a lurker gives us nothing.
Actually, I think Joth is town. And that's because... his scum record is truly abysmal. And I read his scum game... the one he told me was the best example of him as scum... and he was just bad scum in that game.
And he does not seem bad in this game. Therefore he's town. Good enough for D1.
That's my general impression.
Read this game (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20694.0).
Well I'm going to read it! I could use the confidence boost. I have a terrible memory so I could tell you not one thing about it.
Quote from: Iguana IguanaThe mathdude wagon is extremely interesting. It's entirely composed of what faust would call lurkers.
Too interesting to give half-baked opinions on it.
I kind of hate this post. It's hating on e for not investing mountains of time into playing mafia and casting shade on all the math voters.
How is this post related to e?
Actually, I think Joth is town. And that's because... his scum record is truly abysmal. And I read his scum game... the one he told me was the best example of him as scum... and he was just bad scum in that game.
And he does not seem bad in this game. Therefore he's town. Good enough for D1.
That's my general impression.
Read this game (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20694.0).
Well I'm going to read it! I could use the confidence boost. I have a terrible memory so I could tell you not one thing about it.
Yeah everyone should read this game, where I do all the things that I am currently scumreading Jim for but somehow still survive to the end. But if you're using it for comps, you should note I was traitor there which is a very specific kind of scum to be.
Quote from: MiXQuote from: Iguana IguanaThe mathdude wagon is extremely interesting. It's entirely composed of what faust would call lurkers.
Too interesting to give half-baked opinions on it.
I kind of hate this post. It's hating on e for not investing mountains of time into playing mafia and casting shade on all the math voters.
How is this post related to e?
You are calling e, gkrieg and iguana lurkers. I singled out e because of what I said about him being a common D1 misexile and generally misunderstood player. gkrieg doesn't have that problem. If it helps, I was also super annoyed that you called iguana a lurker when he was too busy vaccuuming up massive piles of confetti late into the night after an EDM concert to respond.
Thank you for answering my other questions. The Joth scumslip thing is... entertaining. Calling that a scumslip though is patently ridiculous.
Ironically, this game from February that I had all but forgotten existed is M134 and we're currently playing ... M135. So idk what that says about my memory, or this community's interest in non-crazy mafia these days.
I mean no offense but pubby was supposed to die
Vote Count 1.II.5
EFHW (4): WestCoastDidds, MiX, Jotheonah, Swowl
Jimmmmm (3): jotheonah, mathdude, EFHW
faust (1): Jimmmmm
mathdude (3): 2.71828....., iguanaiguana, gkrieg13
MiX (2): LaLight, faust
Vote Count 1.II.5
EFHW (4): WestCoastDidds, MiX, Jotheonah, Swowl
Jimmmmm (2): mathdude, EFHW
faust (1): Jimmmmm
mathdude (3): 2.71828....., iguanaiguana, gkrieg13
MiX (2): LaLight, faust
Ah sorry, I don't want to share more about my reads right now, they are also still quite volatile. I do not like the EFHW wagon.faust, besides MiX, who is on your scummy list?Why do you want to know?
Because I have you in my leaning town category, and I’d like to be able to either move you up or down. I think MiX is town, so that increases your scum likelihood. But it’s MiX, so it’s hard to know. I think Jimmmm is town, but I think you do, too, now. Do we agree on anyone else?
Ah sorry, I don't want to share more about my reads right now, they are also still quite volatile. I do not like the EFHW wagon.faust, besides MiX, who is on your scummy list?Why do you want to know?
Because I have you in my leaning town category, and I’d like to be able to either move you up or down. I think MiX is town, so that increases your scum likelihood. But it’s MiX, so it’s hard to know. I think Jimmmm is town, but I think you do, too, now. Do we agree on anyone else?
Vote: joth
I can think of one fool-proof way to work out Jim's alignment.
It's like the faust/Jimmmmm thing... if both town, scum would have happily let us all camp there the full D1.
It's like the faust/Jimmmmm thing... if both town, scum would have happily let us all camp there the full D1.
In other words, if we're both Town, scum aren't the ones who led us away from camping there? Potentially useful if true.
No one else finds it scummy that Jimmmmm was exaggerating the argument? Or do you not believe him when now he says he wasn't angry?
Town Jimmmmm never posts this much. The deliberateness of his posts since the argument points to careful crafting.
Well, catching up took longer than expected. Iguana spamming the thread this afternoon didn't help... that was a lot more to read (and a few more things to respond to) than I expected.
So my reread of a few people, mentioned here...Of the remaining 4, I'm still learning Jimmmmm. I'll go reread them each quick (after replying to a couple other posts here) and see if that changes.... wil have to wait a few hours.
Vote: MiX
the time has come.
oh no. i tried to do something productive. better return to wackyness.
Haha faust lock!town for being so stubborn!!!!!!1!!!!one. Hey faust, why oh why are you scumreading me? I'm so invested in this question and believe you will provide a satisfactory answer!
The mathdude wagon is extremely interesting. It's entirely composed of what faust would call lurkers.
Too interesting to give half-baked opinions on it.
Vote: joth
Vote: MiX
the time has come.
oh no. i tried to do something productive. better return to wackyness.
Haha faust lock!town for being so stubborn!!!!!!1!!!!one. Hey faust, why oh why are you scumreading me? I'm so invested in this question and believe you will provide a satisfactory answer!
He realizes he may be being just a little too helpful and less like himself, then starts backing off again.
Yes, I'm sure exiling a scum will do a lot for our ability to see who the remaining scum is.
You don't think I'm scum?Well, I believe you are more likely town than scum.
Basically I got a scum result on ash Night 1, and spent Day 2 arguing with him, waiting until most of the way through the Day before claiming the result.Sorry, but I'm not convinced that a game in which you had a scum result on another player is the best comparison to this situation. Obviously you are going to be more forceful under those circumstances.
I just re-read EFHW's posts. As I was reading through, I kept thinking "that's scummy"... "so's that"... "I get why people called that out"... "I was called scummy for something like that".
But as I kept going, I began to realize that I agree with just about everything she has posted through the whole D1, and since I'm being called scummy for a few things, it's not surprising that people are calling her scummy too.
Early mild scum-read on Jimmmmm, an awareness and attempt to avoid getting locked into a 1 vs. 1 with Jimmmmm/faust, some concerns briefly raised with a few others, namely MiX and gkrieg, then cycling back and landing on Jimmmmm.
All in, everything EFHW has said makes sense to me. I give her almost full town-cred at this point.
I would join this wagon.After e votes for me an iguana joins, joth hypothetically wants to continue building a wagon on me. But he wants to avoid that (apparently) dreaded 3rd vote on someone, so he tries to lure someone else into it first.
TLDRX2; IDK. Almost everything there makes me want to say Joth is skummy af. The thing is... I also just don't think that Joth like... does that as skum. Especially after opening the game they way they did. I am trying to talk myself into skum, but I have to really try so I think I am a no go on Joth today.
MiX is scum but it's not the exile we want right now.If this were stated today, and we had very little discussion about MiX all D1, then it makes sense. But it was early D1. On its own, chalk it up to being faust. Now combined with his desire to vote MiX early without actually doing it, looks like buddying to me.
Still seeing the same as I was seeing before. If this is a new town!Jimmmmm and we need to note this going forward that he really gets into it instead of just lurking, I think that's an overall win. But to me, right now, it still sits as differents/scummy.
faust, what changed in the 16 hours between these posts?My read on you.Yes, I'm sure exiling a scum will do a lot for our ability to see who the remaining scum is.You don't think I'm scum?Well, I believe you are more likely town than scum.
What changed your read on me?I'm not willing to give scum a primer on how to talk me out of scumreading them, sorry.
Idk if this needs to be said to a bunch of vets, but policy exiles are scummy because they give scum cover to get someone exiled without committing to that person being scum. We get one exile per game day. It’s not pro town to use it for anything other than pursuing our collective wincon.
vote: MiX. I did apologize.
Sorry: to clarify, I'm scumreading that post. I'm not trying to policy exile you anymore.
Honestly, if we want to exile someone for thread health, Jimmmmm's the way to go.
ok, unvote
But what does that have to do with wanting wagons? Having wagons is the best way of catching scum.Let’sAnd that's scummy why?
Vote: mathdude
Dude seems a little too eager to have wagons.
Town wants to exile scum. Scum just wants to exile.
Say more about that.
...
But I'd love to hear the "wagons are protown" argument.
...
I suspect MiX and faust are voting on me in the hopes that I’ll overreact to a small wagon which is one of my primary scum tells. It’s a good plan, town points all around.
I hate that FDS meta makes it towny to do a thing I consider to be the most scummy (fishing around for a “viable” wagon rather than properly scum hunting).
I actually believe it’s possible to productively scumhunt without forcing a bunch of claims and giving scum cover to pull off a town exile, which is what wagons for wagons’ sake usually accomplishes. But I guess we can agree to disagree.
EFHW, do you think that getting angry, emotional etc is a scum- or Town-trait?In you, I'd say town. Scum!you wouldn't get carried away by emotion, and I don't think you did in this game.
EFHW, do you think that getting angry, emotional etc is a scum- or Town-trait?In you, I'd say town. Scum!you wouldn't get carried away by emotion, and I don't think you did in this game.
...
Also I think it's obvious joth voted you because you were a wagon.
lol. I voted EFHW because of a combo of trusting my town reads and PoE.
...
Also I think it's obvious joth voted you because you were a wagon.
lol. I voted EFHW because of a combo of trusting my town reads and PoE.
This struck me as odd at the time; how can you PoE someone early Day 1? Then I realised it must have been PoE out of the wagons and yeah joth's attitude to wagons is super weird.
What can I say guys? I’m a mystery wrapped in an enigma wrapped in a tortilla.
What was your purpose in asking faust to say more about wagons?
This game I really wanted to just pick a read and stay on them for the sake of limiting scum’s ability to manipulate and maybe I should have stuck to my guns there. The switch to EFHW was a bit of a whim and looking back not really helpful in any way.I'm confused about this. Weren't you voting for EFHW before you ever started suspecting Jimmmmm?
Vote: Jimmmmm
Why are we changing directions when we have two perfectly cromulent wagons right here?
I was thinking Jimmmmm and EFHW, but I see the EFHW wagon has sputtered out.
Anyway, let's get rid of Jimmmmm, he's being very scummy.
I would join this wagon.
I would join this wagon.
This was about mathdude. Were you considering having mathdude be your read for Today, or would joining that wagon be non-committal?
Why are we changing directions when we have two perfectly cromulent wagons right here?
Having another look at EFHW. This jumped out at me:He didn't vote me when he said he wanted to policy exile me.Idk if this needs to be said to a bunch of vets, but policy exiles are scummy because they give scum cover to get someone exiled without committing to that person being scum. We get one exile per game day. It’s not pro town to use it for anything other than pursuing our collective wincon.
vote: MiX. I did apologize.
Sorry: to clarify, I'm scumreading that post. I'm not trying to policy exile you anymore.
Honestly, if we want to exile someone for thread health, Jimmmmm's the way to go.
ok, unvote
EFHW votes MiX in agreement with joth's assertion that policy exiles are scummy (or rather, policy votes or advocating for a policy exile). Then when MiX states that he now scumreads EFHW for that post and is no longer trying to policy exile her, EFHW immediately unvotes. Why would the fact that he's now saying it's also scummy change the scumminess of the original call for a policy exile?
I think I have some understanding of joth's game so far now, and it's making a bit more sense. I think the "stick to a read" plan explains the vibe I (and I gather Swowl) was getting, and it sounds likely to be a premeditated (ie non-alignment-dependent) plan. I think I'm leaning slight Town, but also that he warrants further investigation on a future Day.He explains in #555.
I would like to know why MiX said joth voting for EFHW was a scumslip - was that ever explained? Was it just because it contradicted his plan?
He didn't vote me when he said he wanted to policy exile me.
I actually do think Jimmmmm is scummy -- because I think I see careful maneuvering that an experienced player who hasn't played for a bit might try. Pick a fight, be righteous about how town should play, buddy someone who voted you (me), and seem to move on with a level head.
I might go back to Jimmmmm. I am feeling uncomfortable ever since joth got involved.
He made it clear he was resisting the urge. Very different from advocating.He didn't vote me when he said he wanted to policy exile me.
So, you would only find a policy exile suggestion scummy if it's accompanied by a vote? Does the fact that it's not accompanied by vote indicate it's not serious?
Hi friends- I am not caught up at all BUT I just realized that deadline is this afternoon. I am heading to the lake and I’m not going to have service. It’s a bad happenstance!
So I’m looking for advice… if not EFHW, who?
Hi friends- I am not caught up at all BUT I just realized that deadline is this afternoon. I am heading to the lake and I’m not going to have service. It’s a bad happenstance!
So I’m looking for advice… if not EFHW, who?
Can anyone do a vote count?
Can anyone do a vote count?
Vote Count 1.MiX
EFHW (2): WestCoastDidds, Swowl
Jimmmmm (3): mathdude, EFHW, jotheonah
faust (1): Jimmmmm
mathdude (3): 2.71828....., iguanaiguana, gkrieg13
MiX (1): LaLight
joth (2): faust, MiX
Not Voting (0):
EoD is in 3:39 hours.
Hi friends- I am not caught up at all BUT I just realized that deadline is this afternoon. I am heading to the lake and I’m not going to have service. It’s a bad happenstance!I'm pretty sure everyone's adivce is going to be "the person I'm voting for".
So I’m looking for advice… if not EFHW, who?
Thank you for the vote count, MiX.
I’m straight up sheeping my town reads. I’m sorry I don’t have more time. I thought I was couch lounging today, not going to the lake. I might be able to check in later, but I’m just not sure.
Vote: Joth
Okay I just said I'm not joining the mathdude wagon but I have to put my vote somewhere more useful than where it is, and I prefer mathdude to the other options. Sorry folks, but I'm going to have to turn it in. Might be around for another 10 minutes or so if there are any last-minute questions or anything.
Vote: mathdude
Almost no activity 2 hours before deadline.
What a time to exile people.
EFHW (2): WestCoastDidds, Swowl
Jimmmmm (3): mathdude, EFHW, jotheonah
mathdude (4): 2.71828....., iguanaiguana, gkrieg13, Jimmmmm
MiX (1): LaLight
joth (2): faust, MiX
MiX, I never read that Joth game. What about it made him look similar to here?
So how much time do we have?
It has been a very busy last two days, sorry for the inactivity. Still like my math vote, don't like jimmmm wagon, would exile joth if necessary
I don't know! You linked one and I never had time to look at it!
I'm trying to eat breakfast and I was looking for the sparknotes version
I'm trying to eat breakfast and I was looking for the sparknotes version
I linked the game because joth was trying really hard to find a game where he was scum but was failing to do so. So I did. It has nothing to do with me comparing him to that game or anything.
The 3 of us can switch to math
Seriously?
Okay, yes, LL was clearly town if anyone had read D1.
Vote: math for now.
Okay, yes, LL was clearly town if anyone had read D1.
Vote: math for now.
But not for yesterday?
I mean, yeah. vote: math
Okay, yes, LL was clearly town if anyone had read D1.
Vote: math for now.
But not for yesterday?
I mean, yeah. vote: math
Yeah. Even I make mistakes :P
It's not like me voting math would've changed anything, right?
Vote: Joth
why math?
I just re-read all of LaLight's 27 posts.
Basically he was pushing pretty hard for MiX and faust.
So let's go from that pool.
I know, I know, WIFOM, but we never actually sheep the dead's reads so scum won't have counted on us doing it.
Also either of those flips are going to be pretty informational.
vote: MiX
This is literally town!math being the D1 exile.
I just re-read all of LaLight's 27 posts.
Basically he was pushing pretty hard for MiX and faust.
So let's go from that pool.
I know, I know, WIFOM, but we never actually sheep the dead's reads so scum won't have counted on us doing it.
Also either of those flips are going to be pretty informational.
vote: MiX
I just re-read all of LaLight's 27 posts.
Basically he was pushing pretty hard for MiX and faust.
So let's go from that pool.
I know, I know, WIFOM, but we never actually sheep the dead's reads so scum won't have counted on us doing it.
Also either of those flips are going to be pretty informational.
vote: MiX
The normal argument that we know more now than they did when they died doesn't really apply here because of the nexile, but also, don't you have your own reads?
I just re-read all of LaLight's 27 posts.
Basically he was pushing pretty hard for MiX and faust.
So let's go from that pool.
I know, I know, WIFOM, but we never actually sheep the dead's reads so scum won't have counted on us doing it.
Also either of those flips are going to be pretty informational.
vote: MiX
The normal argument that we know more now than they did when they died doesn't really apply here because of the nexile, but also, don't you have your own reads?
Well sure but LaLight’s an IC.
Vote: Joth
Why’s that?
I find joth either definite scum, or definite town... but I have no idea which.
it's either really Towny or really scummy, and I can't put my finger on which.
I just re-read all of LaLight's 27 posts.
Basically he was pushing pretty hard for MiX and faust.
So let's go from that pool.
I know, I know, WIFOM, but we never actually sheep the dead's reads so scum won't have counted on us doing it.
Also either of those flips are going to be pretty informational.
vote: MiX
The normal argument that we know more now than they did when they died doesn't really apply here because of the nexile, but also, don't you have your own reads?
Well sure but LaLight’s an IC.
Alternatively, they were both town so scum didn't bother to show up at EOD.
Mainly because I preferred Joth yesterday. And as nothing has changed I still prefer him today.
TLDR; I think Joth is playing too skummy to actually be skum. What am I missing here?
...
TLDRX2; IDK. Almost everything there makes me want to say Joth is skummy af. The thing is... I also just don't think that Joth like... does that as skum. Especially after opening the game they way they did. I am trying to talk myself into skum, but I have to really try so I think I am a no go on Joth today.
Alternatively, they were both town so scum didn't bother to show up at EOD.
What is your logic there?
Exile is better than not if they are both town right?
Vote: Joth
Why’s that?
Mainly because I preferred Joth yesterday. And as nothing has changed I still prefer him today.
Well tbf I preferred EFHW, but I am off of that for now. I was being stupid.
We should of had an exile yesterday, the fact that we did not just kind of makes me feel like one of them has to be skum.
I could look at it the other way and say "who would of looked hella fishy for moving their vote in the last hour" under the assumption that it was a TVT wagon... However, day one end of day anyone can do anything and it will like literally never be skum read universally as long as the exile goes off.
So I think, because there was no exile... combined with the lack of end of day scrambling... I think one of them is skum. And I think because we had the initial end of day move towards Joth when you changed over and I changed over and EFHW changed over... the fact that that did not happen makes me suspect of Joth.
Mainly because I preferred Joth yesterday. And as nothing has changed I still prefer him today.
I had you down as Townreading joth?TLDR; I think Joth is playing too skummy to actually be skum. What am I missing here?
...
TLDRX2; IDK. Almost everything there makes me want to say Joth is skummy af. The thing is... I also just don't think that Joth like... does that as skum. Especially after opening the game they way they did. I am trying to talk myself into skum, but I have to really try so I think I am a no go on Joth today.
And then you didn't mention him again for the Day other than joining his wagon in lieu of an EFHW exile.
Vote: Joth
Why’s that?
Mainly because I preferred Joth yesterday. And as nothing has changed I still prefer him today.
Well tbf I preferred EFHW, but I am off of that for now. I was being stupid.
We should of had an exile yesterday, the fact that we did not just kind of makes me feel like one of them has to be skum.
I could look at it the other way and say "who would of looked hella fishy for moving their vote in the last hour" under the assumption that it was a TVT wagon... However, day one end of day anyone can do anything and it will like literally never be skum read universally as long as the exile goes off.
So I think, because there was no exile... combined with the lack of end of day scrambling... I think one of them is skum. And I think because we had the initial end of day move towards Joth when you changed over and I changed over and EFHW changed over... the fact that that did not happen makes me suspect of Joth.
I didn’t understand this post at all.
Alternatively, they were both town so scum didn't bother to show up at EOD.
What is your logic there?
Exile is better than not if they are both town right?
For one, deadline was 5am for me. I'm typically not showing up for that regardless of alignment. Others in more favourable timezones may have had other reasons they couldn't be around, and some have indicated so. It might be worth having a soft deadline in future.
So Swowl, you're basing your vote on joth, who you fairly recently said you didn't think was scum, on the assumption that the wagons weren't Town v Town and the unconfirmed alignments of those on the wagons?
No I'm talking about now. I get voting for the least bad alternative leading up to deadline, but an early Day 2 vote suggests your read on joth has changed. Given you now have ten other alternatives, I'm not finding your reasoning convincing, particularly in contrast to the long, thought-out post in which you concluded joth was Town.
I am actually a little confused of your fixation on this. Would you of asked me the same (yet different) question if I had opened with a Math vote?
And you now think that joth isn't playing too scummy to scum, and that he does do that as scum? Are you sure you haven't just talked yourself into scum?
I'm open to possibilities, but I wouldn't allow assumptions of what scum would or wouldn't do to override any previous reads I might have had. Wagon analysis is a factor, but only one of many. Unless you can argue who the scum were who would have helped with the exile but didn't want to bus, I see no reason to assume anything.
fuck *exile* sorry.
Mainly because I preferred Joth yesterday. And as nothing has changed I still prefer him today.
I had you down as Townreading joth?TLDR; I think Joth is playing too skummy to actually be skum. What am I missing here?
...
TLDRX2; IDK. Almost everything there makes me want to say Joth is skummy af. The thing is... I also just don't think that Joth like... does that as skum. Especially after opening the game they way they did. I am trying to talk myself into skum, but I have to really try so I think I am a no go on Joth today.
And then you didn't mention him again for the Day other than joining his wagon in lieu of an EFHW exile.
I'm open to possibilities, but I wouldn't allow assumptions of what scum would or wouldn't do to override any previous reads I might have had. Wagon analysis is a factor, but only one of many. Unless you can argue who the scum were who would have helped with the exile but didn't want to bus, I see no reason to assume anything.
Don't actually do this because it would be a huge waste of time.
But when in the world can you think of game that is open like this in which there has been a no lynch day 1 and one of the wagons were not skum?
And also that we can be certain enough of this that we should only consider those same wagons for Today's exile?
Also, I hate nexiles. I had intended to be there at EoD but my wife pulled me away 10m before deadline and when I remembered to check if I could move my vote last minute I was 2 minutes late and the thread was locked.Yeah, I was also 3 minutes late. I feel that having the deadline on a weekend didn't help things.
I don't think even if I had switched that an exile would have happened, so that's my only consolation.
Alternatively, they were both town so scum didn't bother to show up at EOD.Meh. If this is TvT then scum absolutely wants to exile one of them. they had a prime chance to exile someone without the chance to claim there.
And also that we can be certain enough of this that we should only consider those same wagons for Today's exile?
We're talking the difference between probable and possible. Discussions so far today have been focused on what's stated as "probable". It would be tough to crunch numbers on such a situation, since it's not perfectly random, independent events. We're talking interactions, teammates, time zones and online times, etc.
Probable is helpful D1, especially toward end of day. And if we don't sort stuff out through 5 or 6 days in D2, maybe we look back at "probable" EoD2 as well. But tunneling on it for 7 days is not helpful.
Let's look at what else is possible. Open up the conversation. I'll leave my vote for now - because it's possible he's scum. I don't know yet how probable, but that will likely sort itself out over the next couple days.
Alternatively, they were both town so scum didn't bother to show up at EOD.Meh. If this is TvT then scum absolutely wants to exile one of them. they had a prime chance to exile someone without the chance to claim there.
Well, either mathdude or joth, just before the deadline.Alternatively, they were both town so scum didn't bother to show up at EOD.Meh. If this is TvT then scum absolutely wants to exile one of them. they had a prime chance to exile someone without the chance to claim there.
When and who?
Ok, I see you say that you had more townreads on the Joth wagon than the Math wagon.
@Swowl Who was scummy on the Math wagon and who was towny on the Joth wagon that made you pick Joth over Math EoD1?
Well, either mathdude or joth, just before the deadline.Alternatively, they were both town so scum didn't bother to show up at EOD.Meh. If this is TvT then scum absolutely wants to exile one of them. they had a prime chance to exile someone without the chance to claim there.
When and who?
Pretty much anyone? It's easy to justify a last-minute switch in the face of "we need an exile".Well, either mathdude or joth, just before the deadline.Alternatively, they were both town so scum didn't bother to show up at EOD.Meh. If this is TvT then scum absolutely wants to exile one of them. they had a prime chance to exile someone without the chance to claim there.
When and who?
No, I mean who had the chance to exile them?
I'm open to possibilities, but I wouldn't allow assumptions of what scum would or wouldn't do to override any previous reads I might have had. Wagon analysis is a factor, but only one of many. Unless you can argue who the scum were who would have helped with the exile but didn't want to bus, I see no reason to assume anything.
Don't actually do this because it would be a huge waste of time.
But when in the world can you think of game that is open like this in which there has been a no lynch day 1 and one of the wagons were not skum?
I would have thought the sample size here would be low enough that you couldn't really conclude anything.
To make sure I understand:
There are three scum in this game. You're arguing that what happened was (at least, but presumably exactly) one scum was a candidate, and the remaining two refused to bus them in a situation where if they were Town they would have helped get an exile through, and those two scum made the difference between an exile going through or not?
Alternatively, they were both town so scum didn't bother to show up at EOD.Meh. If this is TvT then scum absolutely wants to exile one of them. they had a prime chance to exile someone without the chance to claim there.
And also that we can be certain enough of this that we should only consider those same wagons for Today's exile?
| Player | Vote | Last post (time before deadline) | Wagons at time of last post | Ability to be around at deadline | Willingness to change vote |
| MiX | joth | Around at deadline | math 5, joth 4 | Yes | Unwilling to move to mathdude |
| Swowl | joth | Around at deadline | math 5, joth 4 | Yes | Did not move to mathdude, but later said he tried to |
| EFHW | math | Around at deadline | math 5, joth 4 | Yes | Yes |
| iguana | math | 30 minutes | math 4, joth 4, Jim 3 | No indication | Indicated willing to avoid nexile |
| gkrieg | math | 45 minutes | math 4, joth 3, Jim 3 | Indicated likely inability | joth yes, Jim no |
| e | math | 55 minutes | math 4, joth 3, Jim 3 | No indication | joth yes, Jim no |
| faust | joth | 1 hour | math 4, joth 3, Jim 3 | No indication | No indication |
| math | Jim | 1.5 hours | math 4, joth 3, Jim 3 | No indication | Presumed willing due to self-preservation |
| Jim | math | 3 hours | math 4, joth 3, Jim 3 | Indicated inability due to timezones | No indication |
| joth | Jim | 3 hours | math 3, joth 3, Jim 3 | Later indicated inability due to RL stuff | Presumed willing due to self-preservation |
| Didds | joth | 3.5 hours | math 3, joth 3, Jim 3 | Unsure due to going to the lake | Yes |
Why is it relevant to include what joth said about his availability after the fact, but not for me or iguana?
| Player | Vote | Last post (time before deadline) | Wagons at time of last post | Ability to change vote before deadline | Willingness to change vote |
| MiX | joth | Around at deadline | math 5, joth 4 | Yes | Unwilling to move to mathdude |
| Swowl | joth | Around at deadline | math 5, joth 4 | Yes | Did not move to mathdude, but later indicated he tried to but was late |
| EFHW | math | Around at deadline | math 5, joth 4 | Yes | Yes |
| iguana | math | 30 minutes | math 4, joth 4, Jim 3 | Later indicated inability due to being pulled away, and then was late | Indicated willing to avoid nexile |
| gkrieg | math | 45 minutes | math 4, joth 3, Jim 3 | Indicated likely inability | joth yes, Jim no |
| e | math | 55 minutes | math 4, joth 3, Jim 3 | No indication | joth yes, Jim no |
| faust | joth | 1 hour | math 4, joth 3, Jim 3 | Later indicated he tried to but was late | No indication |
| math | Jim | 1.5 hours | math 4, joth 3, Jim 3 | No indication | Presumed willing due to self-preservation |
| Jim | math | 3 hours | math 4, joth 3, Jim 3 | Inability due to timezones | No indication |
| joth | Jim | 3 hours | math 3, joth 3, Jim 3 | Later indicated inability due to RL stuff | Presumed willing due to self-preservation |
| Didds | joth | 3.5 hours | math 3, joth 3, Jim 3 | Unsure due to going to the lake | Yes |
I'm not seeing too many opportunities to get an exile through. MiX and Swowl could have exiled math, so you could argue for a math/MiX/Swowl team.This analysis is alright, and I don't think the nexile was due to people maliciously skipping the deadline. However "General disorganisation" is something that scum definitely had an impact on. The leading wagon at the end was joth, and it started fairly late, and at the time a lot of people were hesitant to join for very lackluster reasons. Here is a timeline:
Aside from from those around at deadline, at the time of each person's last post, the biggest wagon was 4 (X - 3), and for most the biggest opposing wagon was 3 (X - 4). You could argue iguana should have switched to joth or faust or Didds should have switched to math, or that you don't believe people who say they weren't available, but given how late it was when anyone hit 4 or 5 votes, I would attribute the no exile to general disorganisation and failure to come to consensus, rather than 1-2 people not doing what they should have.
Vote: jothMe starting the joth wagon. T-21 hours.
MiX voices agreement but won't join me in voting. T-21 hours.Vote: joth
This follow logically.
I agree with you.
TLDR; I think Joth is playing too skummy to actually be skum. What am I missing here?Swowl investigates joth and does a weird "too scummy to be scum" defense. T-14.5 hours.
[...]
TLDRX2; IDK. Almost everything there makes me want to say Joth is skummy af. The thing is... I also just don't think that Joth like... does that as skum. Especially after opening the game they way they did. I am trying to talk myself into skum, but I have to really try so I think I am a no go on Joth today.
I guess I'll end by saying I find joth either definite scum, or definite town... but I have no idea which. It's not one of those "in-the-middle, slightly leaning one way" deals. Except that it is, because I don't know which way I'm leaning. Not a viable wagon D1 at this point anyway here, so I'll check back again D2 if/when relevant.mathdude does not perceive joth to be a viable option and that's his main reason against voting there. T-14 hours.
I think joth's town. But this looks really weird. It probably means joth is scum, but I don't know, I like wall posts from joth and he's been making enough...MiX is also very ambivalent about joth, which seems in contrast to his earlier reaction to my vote. T-5.5 hours.
This isn't an easy person to read today I'd say.
MiX finally join and makes joth into a wagon; late enough that it is very unlikely to succeed. T-5 hours.What can I say guys? I’m a mystery wrapped in an enigma wrapped in a tortilla.
Vote: joth
A smart man once said, the only sure way to know someone's alignment...
I think I have some understanding of joth's game so far now, and it's making a bit more sense. I think the "stick to a read" plan explains the vibe I (and I gather Swowl) was getting, and it sounds likely to be a premeditated (ie non-alignment-dependent) plan. I think I'm leaning slight Town, but also that he warrants further investigation on a future Day.Jimmmmm joins the club of "uh I don't really know but let's look at this tomorrow". At least this point has an actual read in it. T-4 hours.
Vote: JothThis vote from Didds makes joth a semi-viable option. I feel like they can't be partners. T-3.5 hours.
Okay I just said I'm not joining the mathdude wagon but I have to put my vote somewhere more useful than where it is, and I prefer mathdude to the other options. Sorry folks, but I'm going to have to turn it in. Might be around for another 10 minutes or so if there are any last-minute questions or anything.Jimmmmm joins a wagon he expressed dislike for rather than the wagon on joth. T-3 hours.
Vote: mathdude
If we're going to exile someone, Jimmmmm seems the most helpful, and IMO, most likely to be scum.mathdude calls joth a "good vote" but prefers to stick to the dying Jimmmmm wagon. T-1.5 hours.
EFHW should also be good tp get future reads on people, but I think she's town so I won't vote there.
Joth would also be a good vote, or maybe MiX.
"MiX finally join and makes joth into a wagon; late enough that it is very unlikely to succeed. T-5 hours."
This is true in hindsight but not when I voted. T-5 hours is a reasonable time.
Vote: Joth
Why’s that?
Mainly because I preferred Joth yesterday. And as nothing has changed I still prefer him today.
Well tbf I preferred EFHW, but I am off of that for now. I was being stupid.
We should of had an exile yesterday, the fact that we did not just kind of makes me feel like one of them has to be skum.
I could look at it the other way and say "who would of looked hella fishy for moving their vote in the last hour" under the assumption that it was a TVT wagon... However, day one end of day anyone can do anything and it will like literally never be skum read universally as long as the exile goes off.
So I think, because there was no exile... combined with the lack of end of day scrambling... I think one of them is skum. And I think because we had the initial end of day move towards Joth when you changed over and I changed over and EFHW changed over... the fact that that did not happen makes me suspect of Joth.
This ignores that you seemed about ready to vote at T-21 hours, but delayed for 16 hours."MiX finally join and makes joth into a wagon; late enough that it is very unlikely to succeed. T-5 hours."
This is true in hindsight but not when I voted. T-5 hours is a reasonable time.
EBWOP
I responded to Swowl above before realizing there were 2 more pages of content.Earlier joth wagon was really quite early.
Jim, I freaking love your chart. Deadline mid-day on a weekend is tough. But I think a part of inability to coalesce is related to scum not needing to bus. Joth and math both got up to E-2 on the last day, but it was easy to just stay and possibility not lose a buddy than to bus. I think if they had both been town, there’d have been more willingness on the part of scum to move to get one of them bounced.
I feel like the Joth wagon had different people on it earlier? Is that right? I’ll need to go grad all the VCs when I’m on a computer, but I’m curious about both math and Joths wagon earlier in the game. I’ll do that later today!
Jimmmmm (3): mathdude, EFHW, jotheonah
mathdude (4): 2.71828....., iguanaiguana, gkrieg13, Jimmmmm
MiX (1): LaLight
joth (4): faust, MiX, WestCoastDidds, Swowl
Fine, vote: jothThe former is the last post iguana makes. Assembling a vote count does not seem like the action of a player who's about to disappear. iguana says this:
Also, I hate nexiles. I had intended to be there at EoD but my wife pulled me away 10m before deadline and when I remembered to check if I could move my vote last minute I was 2 minutes late and the thread was locked.Now I know that is probably not a precise measurement, but EFHW's vote was more than 10 minutes before deadline.
Y’all are substituting wagon analysis for reads ina way that is very tempting, but ultimately self-defeating.
We should be looking at MiX and faust. Especially faust. Give me some time I’ll put together a cogent case.
Can confirm that this is the case. I am not sure that your argument works though: Even if LaLight always scumreads us, it is still beneficial for scum!us to remove them.Y’all are substituting wagon analysis for reads ina way that is very tempting, but ultimately self-defeating.
We should be looking at MiX and faust. Especially faust. Give me some time I’ll put together a cogent case.
Killing LL to push me and faust doesn't work cause LL always scumreads us. You should've known that.
Jim, I freaking love your chart. Deadline mid-day on a weekend is tough. But I think a part of inability to coalesce is related to scum not needing to bus. Joth and math both got up to E-2 on the last day, but it was easy to just stay and possibility not lose a buddy than to bus. I think if they had both been town, there’d have been more willingness on the part of scum to move to get one of them bounced.
Can confirm that this is the case. I am not sure that your argument works though: Even if LaLight always scumreads us, it is still beneficial for scum!us to remove them.Y’all are substituting wagon analysis for reads ina way that is very tempting, but ultimately self-defeating.
We should be looking at MiX and faust. Especially faust. Give me some time I’ll put together a cogent case.
Killing LL to push me and faust doesn't work cause LL always scumreads us. You should've known that.
Why not? What I wrote above provides a reason for why scum!us would kill LaLight, and thus if LaLight dies we can be pushed with that reasoning.Can confirm that this is the case. I am not sure that your argument works though: Even if LaLight always scumreads us, it is still beneficial for scum!us to remove them.Y’all are substituting wagon analysis for reads ina way that is very tempting, but ultimately self-defeating.
We should be looking at MiX and faust. Especially faust. Give me some time I’ll put together a cogent case.
Killing LL to push me and faust doesn't work cause LL always scumreads us. You should've known that.
But it's not beneficial for other scum teams to kill them to push us, right?
I mean surely if anyone's to blame for the no-exile it's joth, math and LL for not being on one of the main wagons at Day's end.What point are you trying to make with this?
I mean surely if anyone's to blame for the no-exile it's joth, math and LL for not being on one of the main wagons at Day's end.What point are you trying to make with this?
Is anyone assuming this?I mean surely if anyone's to blame for the no-exile it's joth, math and LL for not being on one of the main wagons at Day's end.What point are you trying to make with this?
That we shouldn't assume that a no-exile can only happen because of scum refusing to bus.
Alternatively, they were both town so scum didn't bother to show up at EOD.
What is your logic there?
Exile is better than not if they are both town right?
Is anyone assuming this?I mean surely if anyone's to blame for the no-exile it's joth, math and LL for not being on one of the main wagons at Day's end.What point are you trying to make with this?
That we shouldn't assume that a no-exile can only happen because of scum refusing to bus.
I mean surely if anyone's to blame for the no-exile it's joth, math and LL for not being on one of the main wagons at Day's end.
Y’all are substituting wagon analysis for reads ina way that is very tempting, but ultimately self-defeating.A wise man would call this
We should be looking at MiX and faust. Especially faust. Give me some time I’ll put together a cogent case.
Thinly veiled OMGUS.
I responded to Swowl above before realizing there were 2 more pages of content.Earlier joth wagon was really quite early.
Jim, I freaking love your chart. Deadline mid-day on a weekend is tough. But I think a part of inability to coalesce is related to scum not needing to bus. Joth and math both got up to E-2 on the last day, but it was easy to just stay and possibility not lose a buddy than to bus. I think if they had both been town, there’d have been more willingness on the part of scum to move to get one of them bounced.
I feel like the Joth wagon had different people on it earlier? Is that right? I’ll need to go grad all the VCs when I’m on a computer, but I’m curious about both math and Joths wagon earlier in the game. I’ll do that later today!
joth (4): iguana, Jimmmmm, MiX, faust
Early Jimmmmm wagon:
Jimmmmm (5): faust, MiX, mathdude, EFHW, joth
So compared to the end-of-day wagons, the people on Jimmmmm just stayed there, other than me and MiX who went back to joth.
I suppose iguana and Jimmmmm's later unwillingness to switch to joth is somewhat suspect. Looking back I especially found these back-to-back posts curious:Jimmmmm (3): mathdude, EFHW, jotheonah
mathdude (4): 2.71828....., iguanaiguana, gkrieg13, Jimmmmm
MiX (1): LaLight
joth (4): faust, MiX, WestCoastDidds, SwowlFine, vote: jothThe former is the last post iguana makes. Assembling a vote count does not seem like the action of a player who's about to disappear. iguana says this:Also, I hate nexiles. I had intended to be there at EoD but my wife pulled me away 10m before deadline and when I remembered to check if I could move my vote last minute I was 2 minutes late and the thread was locked.Now I know that is probably not a precise measurement, but EFHW's vote was more than 10 minutes before deadline.
iguana: Can you confirm of deny that you saw EFHW's vote before D1 ended?
It must needs be remarked that MiX has rudely ignored this question.This is literally town!math being the D1 exile.
And now you vote Math. What changed your mind?
It must needs be remarked that MiX has rudely ignored this question.This is literally town!math being the D1 exile.
And now you vote Math. What changed your mind?
It must needs be remarked that MiX has rudely ignored this question.This is literally town!math being the D1 exile.
And now you vote Math. What changed your mind?
I think he's scummy.
I actually had time to reread him at night.
faust's case makes a ton of sense, but it's faust and he literally always convinces me, even when he's scum.
Joth's case is not super convincing. It's basically, let's sheep Lalight. But I townread Joth for more of the day yesterday, and I still am not seeing it now.
This is all making me even more frustrated that I didn't manage to get my vote to Joth yesterday. If we knew Joth's alignment right now, this whole day could be very different and we would know whether to be looking at the people who were partnery with him or the people who drove his exile.
I am very much not sorted right now and suspicious of everyone who came in and voted right away before any discussion.
Well, Town also wants to make sure the other guy is exiled.
What a waste of time.
Jimmmmm, why can't we focus on the wagons first for the sole reason people scumread them?
Ok, I see you say that you had more townreads on the Joth wagon than the Math wagon.
@Swowl Who was scummy on the Math wagon and who was towny on the Joth wagon that made you pick Joth over Math EoD1?
I have already mentioned that WCD and MiX are my TRs on the Joth wagon.
I have already mentioned that I think Jimmm is town, from the Math wagon.
I have not mentioned that I think you are moderately skummy so far this game.
Those would be my big three.
ppe - tons of faust
If we knew Joth's alignment right now, this whole day could be very different and we would know whether to be looking at the people who were partnery with him or the people who drove his exile.
Also, have to say this.
I've never seen someone use a spreadsheet before. It made me think of of when Teproc dumped his entire QT into the thread and made no QT quoting a rule lol. Jim is playing next level here.
It must needs be remarked that MiX has rudely ignored this question.This is literally town!math being the D1 exile.
And now you vote Math. What changed your mind?
I think he's scummy.
I actually had time to reread him at night.
How is it that you make up your mind so quickly? Don't you care what other people say on day 2??
What a waste of time.
Jimmmmm, why can't we focus on the wagons first for the sole reason people scumread them?
I don't understand this post. Can you explain. What were you calling a waste of time?
I got you, iguana. MiX is being very town MiX!
Alternatively, they were both town so scum didn't bother to show up at EOD.
What is your logic there?
Exile is better than not if they are both town right?
They would have assumed that town would make sure an exile went through. Jimmmmm was the only one with an inconvenient time zone, I think. I'm not saying I think this is what happened. I'm saying it is just as likely as your theory.
Loath though I am to admit it, I am agreeing with Jimmmmm here. Your conclusion that one of them has to be scum is flimsy at best, and then you say there are only two choices, math and joth.
The no exile is also complicated by the fact that MiX says he was policy not-voting math because of all the early exiles math has had.
Ok, I see you say that you had more townreads on the Joth wagon than the Math wagon.
@Swowl Who was scummy on the Math wagon and who was towny on the Joth wagon that made you pick Joth over Math EoD1?
I have already mentioned that WCD and MiX are my TRs on the Joth wagon.
I have already mentioned that I think Jimmm is town, from the Math wagon.
I have not mentioned that I think you are moderately skummy so far this game.
Those would be my big three.
ppe - tons of faust
Ok, I keep tripping over this and it's not because of OMGUS. I don't know if it really checks out.
TR on WCD - sure, whatever. She gets those.
TR on MiX????
And then you say you voted Joth over Math because I was voting Math and you don't trust me.
First of all, why? You ignored me yesterday for one.
Also, IIRC I was already voting Math when you first called Math scummy, so why didn't my scumminess enter into your calculus at the the time you first read him?
Iguana, I understand you can't fathom having a townread on me, but others can.
I got you, iguana. MiX is being very town MiX!
It must needs be remarked that MiX has rudely ignored this question.This is literally town!math being the D1 exile.
And now you vote Math. What changed your mind?
I think he's scummy.
I actually had time to reread him at night.
How is it that you make up your mind so quickly? Don't you care what other people say on day 2??
Night time is 2 days, I think it's reasonable to get a read like "I think he's scummy".
Yes I care about what people say, which is why I haven't explained why I scumread him.
I just think it is suspicious to start right away with a vote. But I guess it can be a difference of playstyle. The only day where I usually vote early is D1 (out of necessity.) I try to delay voting D2 until at the very least everyone has posted because there can always be results and results can inform things. A vote is for an exile. So why would you want to push an exile before you have all the possible relevant information?
Ok, I see you say that you had more townreads on the Joth wagon than the Math wagon.
@Swowl Who was scummy on the Math wagon and who was towny on the Joth wagon that made you pick Joth over Math EoD1?
I have already mentioned that WCD and MiX are my TRs on the Joth wagon.
I have already mentioned that I think Jimmm is town, from the Math wagon.
I have not mentioned that I think you are moderately skummy so far this game.
Those would be my big three.
ppe - tons of faust
Ok, I keep tripping over this and it's not because of OMGUS. I don't know if it really checks out.
TR on WCD - sure, whatever. She gets those.
TR on MiX????
And then you say you voted Joth over Math because I was voting Math and you don't trust me.
First of all, why? You ignored me yesterday for one.
Also, IIRC I was already voting Math when you first called Math scummy, so why didn't my scumminess enter into your calculus at the the time you first read him?
1. I would rather not go into why I think this is Town!MiX (that is not a crumb, it is reads based). But yeah... town mix.
2. My skummy read on you, which I did make sure to put "moderately" in front of, is also based on more gut than anything else.
3. I don't get your IIRC comment. You were voting Math. I thought you were kinda acting skummy. That deterred me from voting Math.
If it helps, the town reads on MiX and WCD weighed far heavier into my decision then my skum reads in the other direction.
I just think it is suspicious to start right away with a vote. But I guess it can be a difference of playstyle. The only day where I usually vote early is D1 (out of necessity.) I try to delay voting D2 until at the very least everyone has posted because there can always be results and results can inform things. A vote is for an exile. So why would you want to push an exile before you have all the possible relevant information?
Because I won't ever have all the relevant information. I want to create more of it, and voting helps with that.
I just think it is suspicious to start right away with a vote. But I guess it can be a difference of playstyle. The only day where I usually vote early is D1 (out of necessity.) I try to delay voting D2 until at the very least everyone has posted because there can always be results and results can inform things. A vote is for an exile. So why would you want to push an exile before you have all the possible relevant information?
Because I won't ever have all the relevant information. I want to create more of it, and voting helps with that.
Ok, well, yesterday you thought Math was town and I thought you were wrong. Today, I still think you are wrong. Or, maybe you are scum.
I just think it is suspicious to start right away with a vote. But I guess it can be a difference of playstyle. The only day where I usually vote early is D1 (out of necessity.) I try to delay voting D2 until at the very least everyone has posted because there can always be results and results can inform things. A vote is for an exile. So why would you want to push an exile before you have all the possible relevant information?
Because I won't ever have all the relevant information. I want to create more of it, and voting helps with that.
Ok, well, yesterday you thought Math was town and I thought you were wrong. Today, I still think you are wrong. Or, maybe you are scum.
What have we learned about thinking each other's wrong?
That's right. Everyone is wrong. So what does that matter?
I got you, iguana. MiX is being very town MiX!
Lol Didds. I don't even know what you're trying to do here.
I've mentioned you're town right? Didds' town.
If we knew Joth's alignment right now, this whole day could be very different and we would know whether to be looking at the people who were partnery with him or the people who drove his exile.
On the other hand, I'm alive right now which is nice.
I got you, iguana. MiX is being very town MiX!
As someone whose never had to actually read MiX before, any advice? Because I'm having a hard time
I just think it is suspicious to start right away with a vote. But I guess it can be a difference of playstyle. The only day where I usually vote early is D1 (out of necessity.) I try to delay voting D2 until at the very least everyone has posted because there can always be results and results can inform things. A vote is for an exile. So why would you want to push an exile before you have all the possible relevant information?
Because I won't ever have all the relevant information. I want to create more of it, and voting helps with that.
A mix of either alignment makes all kinds of declarations “x is town!” And will declare himself an IC at the smallest provocation. In our very first game together he was bossing me around and it REALLY upset me. Now I see it as bluster.
I just think it is suspicious to start right away with a vote. But I guess it can be a difference of playstyle. The only day where I usually vote early is D1 (out of necessity.) I try to delay voting D2 until at the very least everyone has posted because there can always be results and results can inform things. A vote is for an exile. So why would you want to push an exile before you have all the possible relevant information?
Because I won't ever have all the relevant information. I want to create more of it, and voting helps with that.
I think another point iguana, is that he’s not pushing for an exile. He’s voting for someone. I don’t think those are the same thing.
A mix of either alignment makes all kinds of declarations “x is town!” And will declare himself an IC at the smallest provocation. In our very first game together he was bossing me around and it REALLY upset me. Now I see it as bluster.
Was our first game the SK game? That's a rough introduction to me, yeah.
I just think it is suspicious to start right away with a vote. But I guess it can be a difference of playstyle. The only day where I usually vote early is D1 (out of necessity.) I try to delay voting D2 until at the very least everyone has posted because there can always be results and results can inform things. A vote is for an exile. So why would you want to push an exile before you have all the possible relevant information?
Because I won't ever have all the relevant information. I want to create more of it, and voting helps with that.
I think another point iguana, is that he’s not pushing for an exile. He’s voting for someone. I don’t think those are the same thing.
A mix of either alignment makes all kinds of declarations “x is town!” And will declare himself an IC at the smallest provocation. In our very first game together he was bossing me around and it REALLY upset me. Now I see it as bluster.
Was our first game the SK game? That's a rough introduction to me, yeah.
Yeah, deep space nine. I do t think I came around on you until after you said you felt bad for vengekilling me in whatever game that was!
*snip*
I guess if you are saying that the MiX/WCD votes had more to do with it, I can somewhat see your logic. But then why not say, I voted there because I was sheeping my TRs? Instead you make it about which wagon is sKummier.
Pretty much the people on the wagons. I was/am way more suspicious of the people on Math than I was on Joth. I wanted an exile to happen so I needed to move from efoo. So I sheeped the one with more of my TRs
*snip*
I guess if you are saying that the MiX/WCD votes had more to do with it, I can somewhat see your logic. But then why not say, I voted there because I was sheeping my TRs? Instead you make it about which wagon is sKummier.
What? That is literally exactly the language I when first asked about all this.Pretty much the people on the wagons. I was/am way more suspicious of the people on Math than I was on Joth. I wanted an exile to happen so I needed to move from efoo. So I sheeped the one with more of my TRs
Oh, good times. I guess I still owe Jimmmmm a good old fashioned exile for that game.
Oh, good times. I guess I still owe Jimmmmm a good old fashioned exile for that game.
What did I do??
I don't have words for this game, so I'm gonna choose to say "screw Jimmmmm for not being active D1 enough for me to vig him" and...and yeah.
Vote: faust
When you look for scum and can't find them, it's because Faust is scum.
Or gkrieg.
Also, have to say this.
I've never seen someone use a spreadsheet before. It made me think of of when Teproc dumped his entire QT into the thread and made no QT quoting a rule lol. Jim is playing next level here.
Jimmmmm's...posts D2. Like, all of them. The way he was arguing about the wagon analysis felt like he was shooting down any meaningful discussion.
Vote: faustWhen you look for scum and can't find them, it's because Faust is scum.
Or gkrieg.
You're really grasping at straws, aren't you? Just trying to see who will bite and where. You're either super helpful and going to stumble on something good, or you're scum trying to mislead us. I don't like you sheeping my vote.
unvote
Vote: faustWhen you look for scum and can't find them, it's because Faust is scum.
Or gkrieg.
You're really grasping at straws, aren't you? Just trying to see who will bite and where. You're either super helpful and going to stumble on something good, or you're scum trying to mislead us. I don't like you sheeping my vote.
unvote
When you look for scum and can't find them, it's because Faust is scum.There isn't a lot I can do about that, is there?
Or gkrieg.
No, I don't think there is a lot you can do about being scum.
Apparently not quite encyclopedic. In DS9 (Redux) I was lurky Town and died Night 1.