Dominion Strategy Forum

Dominion => Variants and Fan Cards => Weekly Design Contest => Topic started by: X-tra on July 17, 2021, 02:42:58 pm

Title: Weekly Design Contest 122: That Other Way of Drawing
Post by: X-tra on July 17, 2021, 02:42:58 pm
Weekly Design Contest 122: That Other Way of Drawing

Either design a draw-to-X card, or a card that helps activate a draw-to-X engine.


Draw-to-X is fun. Took me a couple of years to realize that. Man, screw +Cards or w/e. Drawing in Dominion's good and all, but draw-to-X is fun. What is draw-to-X? "Draw-to-x abilities are those that allow you to draw cards until you have a specified number of cards in your hand, regardless of how many cards you have to start with." I quoted the wiki. See here (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Draw-to-X) for more details.

This contest offers you two choices. Either you make an actual draw-to-X card, such as Watchtower, Way of the Owl, Library or Cursed Village; or you make a card that helps you activate a draw-to-X engine, such as Oasis, Native Village, Festival or Coven. Basically, a non-terminal stop card would qualify. Or a card that makes you discard stuff from your hand for a bonus such as Artificer, that's cool too. I'm a little more torn on terminal discarding Action cards such as Vault, because they require a Village first for you to play your draw-to-X card after discarding stuff. So you know. Try to avoid that, I suppose. In case of doubt, I will let you guys know. So no silly surprises before the deadline.  ;)

Some extra rules include:
Judging will be done in a week. Expect it around next Saturday (21-07-24), around perhaps 8:00 PM EDT. EDIT: Judging date postponed by a day. It will be done on next Sunday (21-07-25) around 8:00 PM.
K thx have fun bai.
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest 122: That Other Way of Drawing
Post by: Gubump on July 17, 2021, 02:55:00 pm
Does an Artifact count as "more than one card in one post?" Or would that qualify?
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest 122: That Other Way of Drawing
Post by: X-tra on July 17, 2021, 03:08:26 pm
Does an Artifact count as "more than one card in one post?" Or would that qualify?

Yeah, no Artifacts either please. A simple Kingdom Supply card, or a simple Landscape (an Event/Way or Project, probably) shall do the trick for this week's contest.  :)
Title: Re: WDC 122: That Other Kind of Mermaid, w the 🐟 on 🔝 & the 👩 on the bottom?!
Post by: spineflu on July 17, 2021, 03:47:37 pm
(https://trello-attachments.s3.amazonaws.com/5d34c84e360a440d0d16278b/60f3318c908c2e6b9add71e0/1a2a00d4e184c440390f6341785fe743/image.png)
Quote
Odd-Jobber ē $3 ē Action
+1 Action
Choose one:
Play up to 3 Treasures from your hand; or Draw until you have 5 cards in hand.

If you have an odd number of Treasures in play, +1 Buy.

i guess mine does both things. Sort of a variant on the thing I entered in contests 40 and 80. It's two contests late for its revival, but I blame that on having to judge #120. I've dialed it back a bit. What if Market but it requires way more farting around to work (but also much cheaper)(and the coins on market come from you playing your treasures).
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest 122: That Other Way of Drawing
Post by: AJL828 on July 17, 2021, 03:49:09 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/4y2PVaRh.jpg)

Action - Duration ($6)
Sheriff
Now and at the start of your next turn: Discard 2 cards, then draw until you have 7 cards in hand.

Library + Wharf! It costs $6 because it's clearly much better than Library is. One of these can also set up your next turn better than Wharf can, but this can't be stacked to quite the same level of effectiveness (since you'll still only wind up with 7 cards by the end).

Hope you like it :) (Yay! Finally did the image thing right by myself this time :P )
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest 122: That Other Way of Drawing
Post by: Gubump on July 17, 2021, 04:21:26 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/52xL55b.png)

Facilitates DtX in two ways: 1. Non-terminal Village that doesn't draw, and 2. it can get rid of junk from on top of your deck in order to help make sure your DtX card draws good cards instead of rubbish.
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest 122: That Other Way of Drawing
Post by: xyz123 on July 18, 2021, 05:53:17 am
Refuge
Action $5

+1 Action
+1 Buy

Exile from 1 to 3 differently named cards from your hand.

Notes
- Exiling cards has a nice synergy with draw to X engines. Unless you are playing a megaturn strategy, you are going to have to address or accept the problem of victory cards taking up valuable hand space in the latter stages of the game. Exiling them is one way to solve this.
- There are no official cards that allow you to exile multiple differently named cards from your hand. I decided to go down this path.
- I think a non-terminal that allowed you to exile as few or as many cards as you want would be overpowered. I decided to borrow the trashing restrictions from Temple as I find them interesting.
- I decided to put a +buy on the card. It adds another engine component when viewing it as a draw to X enabler.


* Update to cost 5 following feedback.
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest 122: That Other Way of Drawing
Post by: faust on July 18, 2021, 06:08:13 am
Do cards like Scholar count for this contest?
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest 122: That Other Way of Drawing
Post by: 4est on July 18, 2021, 10:07:00 am
(https://i.imgur.com/BRgMk6I.png)

Here is my submission this week. Tome is a simple twist on more traditional draw-to-X Actions, this time as a Treasure. Treasures are normally the bane of DtX engines since you usually can't get them out of your hand before playing your next draw card, but Tome doesn't mind them: just play your hand of Treasures before playing Tome to maximize your draw, and then you can play any additional Treasures you draw (including chaining together other Tomes). Obviously, the non-terminal draw and economy come at the cost of dead-drawing Actions during your Buy phase. You also need to watch out for having too many cards in your hand when playing this, otherwise it's just a $5 Copper. These downsides aside though, with a bit of ingenuity and the right support (especially +Buy and other powerful Kingdom Treasures) Tome can allow for some really unique types of DtX engines that simply aren't possible with Library and company. 
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest 122: That Other Way of Drawing
Post by: JW on July 18, 2021, 10:27:24 am
Peon
$3
Action
Choose either: Draw until you have 6 cards in hand; or +2 Actions and +$1.

It's your Draw to X card, and your +Actions in one, but neither function is very good on its own. My original version gave +2 Cards instead and cost $2. With the change to "draw to 6," it now combos much better with itself so a cost of $2 would be too low.

I also clarified the wording per LastFootnoteís suggestion. Thanks!

Original:
Peon
$2
Action
Choose either: +2 Cards; or +2 Actions and +$1. 
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest 122: That Other Way of Drawing
Post by: Xen3k on July 18, 2021, 01:16:19 pm
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51320348064_155e745d0c_b.jpg)

Quote
Wizard's Tower - $4
Action - Victory
+2 Cards
+1 Action
Reveal your hand and discard all Victory cards and cards costing $0.
----
1VP

A Lab that forces you to discard cards after drawing. This does not combo with itself like Labs normally do, and will usually benefit Draw to X cards by getting rid of the junk from your hand after drawing the 2 cards. Gets stronger the later the game goes and can act more like a normal lab if trashing is readily available. When compared to Mill, it is probably not as consistently strong, but I think it gets better as the game goes along and can benefit Draw to X cards more. Feedback is appreciated.
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest 122: That Other Way of Drawing
Post by: Freddy10 on July 18, 2021, 02:41:32 pm
A cross between Library and Council Room that allows your opponents to discard cards for their benefit.
Quote
Council of elders
Action - $5 

+1 Buy
All players (including you) may discard a card
Draw until you have 7 cards in hand.
(https://imgur.com/vbh6uPE.jpg)
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest 122: That Other Way of Drawing
Post by: mandioca15 on July 18, 2021, 02:49:01 pm
Flywheel (Action, $5)

Trash a card from your hand.
Draw until you have 6 cards in hand.
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest 122: That Other Way of Drawing
Post by: emtzalex on July 18, 2021, 02:59:15 pm
My Submission:
(https://i.imgur.com/G0bubERh.png)

Quote from: Clock of the Time Dragon
CLOCK OF THE TIME DRAGON  $5
ACTION
Discard a card. If it was a Treasure, +2 Actions, +$2. If it wasn't, draw until you have 6 cards in hand.
                                                                                               
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest 122: That Other Way of Drawing
Post by: Gubump on July 18, 2021, 04:01:41 pm
Refuge
Action $3

+1 Action
+1 Buy

Exile from 1 to 3 differently named cards from your hand.

Notes
- Exiling cards has a nice synergy with draw to X engines. Unless you are playing a megaturn strategy, you are going to have to address or accept the problem of victory cards taking up valuable hand space in the latter stages of the game. Exiling them is one way to solve this.
- There are no official cards that allow you to exile multiple differently named cards from your hand. I decided to go down this path.
- I think a non-terminal that allowed you to exile as few or as many cards as you want would be overpowered. I decided to borrow the trashing restrictions from Temple as I find them interesting.
- I decided to put a +buy on the card. It adds another engine component when viewing it as a draw to X enabler.

This is way better than Temple imo. Sure, Temple also scores, but this is non-terminal, so you don't need to spend your precious Actions using it, and Exiling is way better than trashing most of the time since you can Exile your Victory cards without losing points; Temple breaks even on VP most of the time since it usually trashes at least one Estate. I think this is strong enough to cost (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/7/7d/Coin5.png/16px-Coin5.png). The benefits over Temple severely outweigh the negatives imo.
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest 122: That Other Way of Drawing
Post by: LastFootnote on July 18, 2021, 04:16:15 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/BRgMk6I.png)

Here is my submission this week. Tome is a simple twist on more traditional draw-to-X Actions, this time as a Treasure. Treasures are normally the bane of DtX engines since you usually can't get them out of your hand before playing your next draw card, but Tome doesn't mind them: just play your hand of Treasures before playing Tome to maximize your draw, and then you can play any additional Treasures you draw (including chaining together other Tomes). Obviously, the non-terminal draw and economy come at the cost of dead-drawing Actions during your Buy phase. You also need to watch out for having too many cards in your hand when playing this, otherwise it's just a $5 Copper. These downsides aside though, with a bit of ingenuity and the right support (especially +Buy and other powerful Kingdom Treasures) Tome can allow for some really unique types of DtX engines that simply aren't possible with Library and company.

I like its simplicity, but it feels like a very monolithic card. It's like a much stronger Venture, which admittedly isn't saying much. But this really says, "Avoid Actions!" You want to draw Treasures, including more Tomes.
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest 122: That Other Way of Drawing
Post by: LastFootnote on July 18, 2021, 04:18:00 pm
Peon
$2
Action
Choose either: +2 Cards; or +2 Actions, +$1.

You canít draw cards with Peon alone, but you can do so by combining it with either a Smithy variant, (even better) a Draw to X card, or a drawing Village, and its flexibility helps to avoid duds.

Both for clarity and for consistency with (most) existing cards, the second choice should probably read "+2 Actions and +$1".
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest 122: That Other Way of Drawing
Post by: kru5h on July 18, 2021, 10:02:17 pm
Bookstore
(https://i.imgur.com/1VfXMKy.png)

You may spend an action to discard cards you don't want first. No +actions this game? You can still play it at the start of your turn if it's in your starting hand, then you have a spare action as well.
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest 122: That Other Way of Drawing
Post by: lompeluiten on July 19, 2021, 07:16:57 am
Book Seller
$4
Action - Reaction
+1 action
draw until you have 5 cards in hand
-
If you discard this card, draw up to 5 cards in hand afterwards


This card would feed action engines quite nicely, while on it's own only an replacement. With one action played it is an laboratory.


Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest 122: That Other Way of Drawing
Post by: The Alchemist on July 19, 2021, 07:28:15 am
Aww I've been waiting for months to win a WDC so I could do DtX!!! I was going to name it "Quick on the Draw" darn you X-tra!!!
"
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest 122: That Other Way of Drawing
Post by: spheremonk on July 19, 2021, 08:00:39 am

(https://abload.de/img/way_of_the_flying_fisj6kfo.png)

A simple, but sneaky, Way (and death to hand-size attacks) – useful in some spots, but mostly not once you get an engine going.
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest 122: That Other Way of Drawing
Post by: lompeluiten on July 19, 2021, 08:36:05 am

(https://abload.de/img/way_of_the_flying_fisj6kfo.png)

A simple, but sneaky, Way (and death to hand-size attacks) Ė useful in some spots, but mostly not once you get an engine going.
He, that is my idea but in a way instead of an action XD

But this way is not useless once you get an engine going: It can be your engine. You can make an engine out of Chaining festivals. Village, terminal action and any following action is an Laboratory. Chaining Cellars/Warehouses become even more useful to sculpt your perfect hand. You greatly underestimates the power level of this way.
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest 122: That Other Way of Drawing
Post by: X-tra on July 19, 2021, 10:29:51 am
Do cards like Scholar count for this contest?

Sorry for the late reply, but I'd prefer not to see these kind of "draw-to-X" cards. So please, try not to do something akin to Scholar or Way of the Mole.
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest 122: That Other Way of Drawing
Post by: Gubump on July 19, 2021, 11:27:25 am
Book Seller
$4
Action - Reaction
+1 action
draw until you have 5 cards in hand
-
If you discard this card, draw up to 5 cards in hand afterwards


This card would feed action engines quite nicely, while on it's own only an replacement. With one action played it is an laboratory.

The proper wording for the Reaction is "when you discard this other than during Clean-up, you may reveal it to draw until you have 5 cards in hand." The current wording doesn't work because it doesn't show the Book Seller to prove you discarded it (whenever you discard multiple cards, only the topmost one is seen), it's mandatory (which is a problem for the same reason as problem 1, i.e. because most discarded cards are invisible to the other players), and it includes discarding it from play (which I'm sure is unintended).
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest 122: That Other Way of Drawing
Post by: segura on July 19, 2021, 01:26:48 pm

(https://abload.de/img/way_of_the_flying_fisj6kfo.png)

A simple, but sneaky, Way (and death to hand-size attacks) Ė useful in some spots, but mostly not once you get an engine going.
He, that is my idea but in a way instead of an action XD

But this way is not useless once you get an engine going: It can be your engine. You can make an engine out of Chaining festivals. Village, terminal action and any following action is an Laboratory. Chaining Cellars/Warehouses become even more useful to sculpt your perfect hand. You greatly underestimates the power level of this way.
And you overestimate itís strength. It certainly isnít a $4 as your card.
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest 122: That Other Way of Drawing
Post by: grep on July 19, 2021, 02:36:17 pm
(https://i.ibb.co/Mn4g7Dz/image.png)
Corbita
$3 - Action - Duration
+$2
At start of your next turn, reveal and discard any number of Action and Treasure cards for +$1 each.


Without a draw to X support, it's a terminal silver with a small next turn bonus, cheap as it does not stack well. Combo with draw to X as it does not consume an action at start of turn.
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest 122: That Other Way of Drawing
Post by: JW on July 19, 2021, 03:12:14 pm
Book Seller
$4
Action - Reaction
+1 action
draw until you have 5 cards in hand
-
If you discard this card, draw up to 5 cards in hand afterwards

The issue I see with this card is that it doesnít do anything without a discard outlet or a non-terminal action that does not draw a card (or a discard attack to counter). For that reason, it doesnít seem worth $4, and a lower cost would not solve that it would not have any use in many kingdoms.
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest 122: That Other Way of Drawing
Post by: faust on July 19, 2021, 04:07:39 pm
What if draw-to-X but X is actually a variable?

(https://i.imgur.com/jMoNlsG.png)
Quote
Geographer - $4
Action

+2 Actions
Reveal and discard a card from your hand. Draw until you have cards in hand equal to its cost in $.

Version history:
v0.1: Used to be "+1 Action" instead of "+2 Actions".
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest 122: That Other Way of Drawing
Post by: Gubump on July 19, 2021, 04:16:54 pm
What if draw-to-X but X is actually a variable?

(https://i.imgur.com/Ziq2hp2.png)
Quote
Geographer - $4
Action

+1 Action
Reveal and discard a card from your hand. Draw until you have cards in hand equal to its cost in $.

This is extremely weak. From a default handsize, you need to discard a (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/7/7d/Coin5.png/16px-Coin5.png) just to get the same net handsize as a Cantrip. Even discarding a (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/6/6f/Coin6.png/16px-Coin6.png) just gets you the same net handsize as a Lab, and that's a weak enough effect that you'd probably be better off just playing the (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/6/6f/Coin6.png/16px-Coin6.png)!

Also, revealing is unnecessary because you're only discarding one card; that card is visible normally.
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest 122: That Other Way of Drawing
Post by: emtzalex on July 19, 2021, 04:36:29 pm
What if draw-to-X but X is actually a variable?

(https://i.imgur.com/Ziq2hp2.png)
Quote
Geographer - $4
Action

+1 Action
Reveal and discard a card from your hand. Draw until you have cards in hand equal to its cost in $.

This is extremely weak. From a default handsize, you need to discard a (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/7/7d/Coin5.png/16px-Coin5.png) just to get the same net handsize as a Cantrip. Even discarding a (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/6/6f/Coin6.png/16px-Coin6.png) just gets you the same net handsize as a Lab, and that's a weak enough effect that you'd probably be better off just playing the (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/6/6f/Coin6.png/16px-Coin6.png)!

Unless you collide it with a Province (or Colony). While that makes the card an unlikely buy in the early- or mid-game (absent other consideration), it potentially occupies an interesting pricing space, when you miss the $5 you need to buy a Duchy. While buying Action cards that late in the game inherently risks never getting to use them, the chance that you might (and if you do, are much more likely to get it with a high priced card making it very powerful) might by more appealing than the 1VP you get from an Estate.
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest 122: That Other Way of Drawing
Post by: mxdata on July 19, 2021, 05:26:18 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/GA0vO9p.png)
Quote
Scribe
Action - Duration - Reaction
$5
+1 Action
Either now or at the start of your next turn, draw until you have 6 cards in hand.
-
When you discard this other than during Clean-up, you may play it.

Most of the time, this would function as a non-terminal draw-to-6, like a Cursed Village without the extra action. Unlike Cursed Village, however, you don't have to get hexed when you gain it. With cards that discard, however, this significantly stronger. The duration aspect makes it a strong counter to discard attacks - by being duration draw you're safe against repeated discard attacks. Get hit by a Militia, play it for next turn, then a second Militia and nothing happens, while if you did the immediate draw, then a second Militia attack would force you to discard back down to three. That would be the main use of the duration option, since otherwise it would normally just amount to a duration +1 Card. The duration option could also function, however, as a proactive defense against discard attacks. It also has a really strong combo with Minion, Hunting Lodge, and Scholar, since you get the draw-to-6 as a reaction to discarding, which happens before the +4, +5, and +7 cards that those three give you - giving you a net handsize of 10, 11, and 13 respectively! Plus an extra Action. As a reaction to an opponent's Minion attack, there'd be an interesting gamble there - you could choose the same-turn option, in which case you'd draw to 6, then get the +4 Cards, for a final hand size of 10. However, if your opponent played another Minion or other discard attack, you'd end up losing those extra cards, while if you chose the next-turn option, you'd be guaranteed 6 cards at the start of your next turn - fewer cards, but safe from other discard attacks. Artificer would also be a strong combo with it, since you can discard a large number of cards and still have a 6-card hand afterwards
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest 122: That Other Way of Drawing
Post by: Gubump on July 19, 2021, 06:38:37 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/5V92wVl.png)
Quote
Scribe
Action - Duration - Reaction
$5
+1 Action
Now or at the start of your next turn, draw until you have 6 cards.
-
When you discard this other than during Clean-up, you may play it.

Most of the time, this would function as a non-terminal draw-to-6, like a Cursed Village without the extra action. Unlike Cursed Village, however, you don't have to get hexed when you gain it. With cards that discard, however, this significantly stronger. The duration aspect makes it a strong counter to discard attacks - by being duration draw you're safe against repeated discard attacks. Get hit by a Militia, play it for next turn, then a second Militia and nothing happens, while if you did the immediate draw, then a second Militia attack would force you to discard back down to three. That would be the main use of the duration option, since otherwise it would normally just amount to a duration +1 Card. The duration option could also function, however, as a proactive defense against discard attacks. It also has a really strong combo with Minion, Hunting Lodge, and Scholar, since you get the draw-to-6 as a reaction to discarding, which happens before the +4, +5, and +7 cards that those three give you - giving you a net handsize of 10, 11, and 13 respectively! Plus an extra Action. As a reaction to an opponent's Minion attack, there'd be an interesting gamble there - you could choose the same-turn option, in which case you'd draw to 6, then get the +4 Cards, for a final hand size of 10. However, if your opponent played another Minion or other discard attack, you'd end up losing those extra cards, while if you chose the next-turn option, you'd be guaranteed 6 cards at the start of your next turn - fewer cards, but safe from other discard attacks. Artificer would also be a strong combo with it, since you can discard a large number of cards and still have a 6-card hand afterwards

I know this is extremely nitpicky, but it should say "draw until you have 6 cards in hand." Otherwise it's checking if you have 6 cards period, and drawing doesn't change the number of cards you have. Also, just to help prevent misreads, it should say "either now or..." like official cards do.
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest 122: That Other Way of Drawing
Post by: mxdata on July 19, 2021, 07:56:11 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/5V92wVl.png)
Quote
Scribe
Action - Duration - Reaction
$5
+1 Action
Now or at the start of your next turn, draw until you have 6 cards.
-
When you discard this other than during Clean-up, you may play it.

Most of the time, this would function as a non-terminal draw-to-6, like a Cursed Village without the extra action. Unlike Cursed Village, however, you don't have to get hexed when you gain it. With cards that discard, however, this significantly stronger. The duration aspect makes it a strong counter to discard attacks - by being duration draw you're safe against repeated discard attacks. Get hit by a Militia, play it for next turn, then a second Militia and nothing happens, while if you did the immediate draw, then a second Militia attack would force you to discard back down to three. That would be the main use of the duration option, since otherwise it would normally just amount to a duration +1 Card. The duration option could also function, however, as a proactive defense against discard attacks. It also has a really strong combo with Minion, Hunting Lodge, and Scholar, since you get the draw-to-6 as a reaction to discarding, which happens before the +4, +5, and +7 cards that those three give you - giving you a net handsize of 10, 11, and 13 respectively! Plus an extra Action. As a reaction to an opponent's Minion attack, there'd be an interesting gamble there - you could choose the same-turn option, in which case you'd draw to 6, then get the +4 Cards, for a final hand size of 10. However, if your opponent played another Minion or other discard attack, you'd end up losing those extra cards, while if you chose the next-turn option, you'd be guaranteed 6 cards at the start of your next turn - fewer cards, but safe from other discard attacks. Artificer would also be a strong combo with it, since you can discard a large number of cards and still have a 6-card hand afterwards

I know this is extremely nitpicky, but it should say "draw until you have 6 cards in hand." Otherwise it's checking if you have 6 cards period, and drawing doesn't change the number of cards you have. Also, just to help prevent misreads, it should say "either now or..." like official cards do.

Oh, right, good catch.  Updated with the proper wording
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest 122: That Other Way of Drawing
Post by: majiponi on July 19, 2021, 11:02:08 pm
Industrious Guide
cost $3 - Action
Reveal your hand.
Discard non-Action cards.
Draw until you have 6 cards in hand.
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest 122: That Other Way of Drawing
Post by: anordinaryman on July 19, 2021, 11:44:05 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/BRgMk6I.png)

Here is my submission this week. Tome is a simple twist on more traditional draw-to-X Actions, this time as a Treasure. Treasures are normally the bane of DtX engines since you usually can't get them out of your hand before playing your next draw card, but Tome doesn't mind them: just play your hand of Treasures before playing Tome to maximize your draw, and then you can play any additional Treasures you draw (including chaining together other Tomes). Obviously, the non-terminal draw and economy come at the cost of dead-drawing Actions during your Buy phase. You also need to watch out for having too many cards in your hand when playing this, otherwise it's just a $5 Copper. These downsides aside though, with a bit of ingenuity and the right support (especially +Buy and other powerful Kingdom Treasures) Tome can allow for some really unique types of DtX engines that simply aren't possible with Library and company.

I feel like this is a lot stronger than Venture. Consider slapping a +buy on it and costing it 6.
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest 122: That Other Way of Drawing
Post by: faust on July 20, 2021, 03:52:15 am
What if draw-to-X but X is actually a variable?

(https://i.imgur.com/Ziq2hp2.png)
Quote
Geographer - $4
Action

+1 Action
Reveal and discard a card from your hand. Draw until you have cards in hand equal to its cost in $.

This is extremely weak. From a default handsize, you need to discard a (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/7/7d/Coin5.png/16px-Coin5.png) just to get the same net handsize as a Cantrip. Even discarding a (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/6/6f/Coin6.png/16px-Coin6.png) just gets you the same net handsize as a Lab, and that's a weak enough effect that you'd probably be better off just playing the (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/6/6f/Coin6.png/16px-Coin6.png)!

Also, revealing is unnecessary because you're only discarding one card; that card is visible normally.
You're right; this is generally a bit weak, especially earlier on. I think it can do with a buff, so I have now turned it into a Village.
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest 122: That Other Way of Drawing
Post by: Aquila on July 20, 2021, 04:13:38 am
I also came to variable X:
(https://trello-attachments.s3.amazonaws.com/5f5a8e8e7ed38b522f25641a/60f47360645c4339c0184bfc/29822cfe02b0753651b50857060851f9/Bookkeeper.png)
Quote
Bookkeeper - Action, $5 cost.
Choose one: +2 Coffers; or draw until the number of cards in your hand equals your Coffers.
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest 122: That Other Way of Drawing
Post by: NoMoreFun on July 20, 2021, 04:30:58 am
Tidy Town
Action/Attack - $4
+2 Actions
Each player (including you) discards any number of cards from their hand, then reveals a hand with only Actions and Treasures.
Afterwards, draw until you have 4 cards in hand


Rules clarification: You can discard any cards you want from your hand, but you must discard the cards that aren't Actions or Treasures. Everyone discards, but only the person who played the card draws after.
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest 122: That Other Way of Drawing
Post by: lompeluiten on July 20, 2021, 07:47:49 am

(https://abload.de/img/way_of_the_flying_fisj6kfo.png)

A simple, but sneaky, Way (and death to hand-size attacks) Ė useful in some spots, but mostly not once you get an engine going.
He, that is my idea but in a way instead of an action XD

But this way is not useless once you get an engine going: It can be your engine. You can make an engine out of Chaining festivals. Village, terminal action and any following action is an Laboratory. Chaining Cellars/Warehouses become even more useful to sculpt your perfect hand. You greatly underestimates the power level of this way.
And you overestimate itís strength. It certainly isnít a $4 as your card.

It is definlty less powerfull as an card as you need to invest in different cards instead of the same. I was doubting $4 indeed. It feels more like a $3 to you?
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest 122: That Other Way of Drawing
Post by: lompeluiten on July 20, 2021, 07:56:18 am
Book Seller
$4
Action - Reaction
+1 action
draw until you have 5 cards in hand
-
If you discard this card, draw up to 5 cards in hand afterwards

The issue I see with this card is that it doesnít do anything without a discard outlet or a non-terminal action that does not draw a card (or a discard attack to counter). For that reason, it doesnít seem worth $4, and a lower cost would not solve that it would not have any use in many kingdoms.
You don't need an non-terminal action card that does not draw, as it does make it easier. Just an village is enough to turn in into a laboratory. There are more situation that it can be usefull.

But there is are indeed kingdoms where it only replaces itself... How can you fix that?
Just an +1$?
Also discard an card before drawing? Or is that an $5 cost card?
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest 122: That Other Way of Drawing
Post by: Gubump on July 20, 2021, 11:20:32 am
Book Seller
$4
Action - Reaction
+1 action
draw until you have 5 cards in hand
-
If you discard this card, draw up to 5 cards in hand afterwards

The issue I see with this card is that it doesnít do anything without a discard outlet or a non-terminal action that does not draw a card (or a discard attack to counter). For that reason, it doesnít seem worth $4, and a lower cost would not solve that it would not have any use in many kingdoms.
You don't need an non-terminal action card that does not draw, as it does make it easier. Just an village is enough to turn in into a laboratory.

Village draws. Village doesn't help this at all.
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest 122: That Other Way of Drawing
Post by: segura on July 20, 2021, 03:28:01 pm
I guess the idea is village, terminal non-drawing Action, Bookseller. Then Bookseller is a Lab. Which illustrates its weakness.
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest 122: That Other Way of Drawing
Post by: spheremonk on July 20, 2021, 10:57:34 pm

(https://abload.de/img/way_of_the_flying_fisj6kfo.png)

A simple, but sneaky, Way (and death to hand-size attacks) Ė useful in some spots, but mostly not once you get an engine going.
He, that is my idea but in a way instead of an action XD

But this way is not useless once you get an engine going: It can be your engine. You can make an engine out of Chaining festivals. Village, terminal action and any following action is an Laboratory. Chaining Cellars/Warehouses become even more useful to sculpt your perfect hand. You greatly underestimates the power level of this way.

My apologies: I didn't notice your card and didn't initially understand your comment. I would be happy to take mine down if you want -- it really is too similar (but different), especially posted right after yours. Let me know. Again, sorry.
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest 122: That Other Way of Drawing
Post by: lompeluiten on July 22, 2021, 03:37:25 am

(https://abload.de/img/way_of_the_flying_fisj6kfo.png)

A simple, but sneaky, Way (and death to hand-size attacks) Ė useful in some spots, but mostly not once you get an engine going.
He, that is my idea but in a way instead of an action XD

But this way is not useless once you get an engine going: It can be your engine. You can make an engine out of Chaining festivals. Village, terminal action and any following action is an Laboratory. Chaining Cellars/Warehouses become even more useful to sculpt your perfect hand. You greatly underestimates the power level of this way.

My apologies: I didn't notice your card and didn't initially understand your comment. I would be happy to take mine down if you want -- it really is too similar (but different), especially posted right after yours. Let me know. Again, sorry.

O no, don't take it down. It will play out way (pun not intended) different then may card. And i have to change it some anyways after the critique.
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest 122: That Other Way of Drawing
Post by: lompeluiten on July 22, 2021, 06:07:42 am
My new version of my submission:

Book Seller $4
Action
+ 1 action
You may discard a card.
Draw until you have 5 cards in hand.

Now it sifts trough your deck without support.
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest 122: That Other Way of Drawing
Post by: lompeluiten on July 22, 2021, 06:11:05 am
I guess the idea is village, terminal non-drawing Action, Bookseller. Then Bookseller is a Lab. Which illustrates its weakness.
Jeah that is the problem for every card that has "Draw to X" To really abuse it, you prefer cards like festivals, but village + terminal action is more likely to have in your Kingdom. Sub optimal, but you might get it to work.
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest 122: That Other Way of Drawing
Post by: segura on July 22, 2021, 07:47:45 am
I like the new version, its "basic" version is a reverse (discard first) Fugitive. That sounds strong but I guess it is OK. Sure, it is spamable but only if you dont run a conventional draw engine.
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest 122: That Other Way of Drawing
Post by: artless on July 22, 2021, 03:05:45 pm

(https://abload.de/img/way_of_the_flying_fisj6kfo.png)

A simple, but sneaky, Way (and death to hand-size attacks) Ė useful in some spots, but mostly not once you get an engine going.
He, that is my idea but in a way instead of an action XD

But this way is not useless once you get an engine going: It can be your engine. You can make an engine out of Chaining festivals. Village, terminal action and any following action is an Laboratory. Chaining Cellars/Warehouses become even more useful to sculpt your perfect hand. You greatly underestimates the power level of this way.
And you overestimate itís strength. It certainly isnít a $4 as your card.

Minion's "refill to 4" option turns a silver into a $5 action.
And draw to five is even better. That's too good to be a way card.
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest 122: That Other Way of Drawing
Post by: faust on July 22, 2021, 04:07:06 pm

(https://abload.de/img/way_of_the_flying_fisj6kfo.png)

A simple, but sneaky, Way (and death to hand-size attacks) Ė useful in some spots, but mostly not once you get an engine going.
He, that is my idea but in a way instead of an action XD

But this way is not useless once you get an engine going: It can be your engine. You can make an engine out of Chaining festivals. Village, terminal action and any following action is an Laboratory. Chaining Cellars/Warehouses become even more useful to sculpt your perfect hand. You greatly underestimates the power level of this way.
And you overestimate itís strength. It certainly isnít a $4 as your card.

Minion's "refill to 4" option turns a silver into a $5 action.
And draw to five is even better. That's too good to be a way card.
I agree that Way of the Flying Fish is too good, but I don't think this is the best reasoning. Minion is different because it discards your hand, which is often desirable (also it has a decent attack). If you want to compare this to a Minion-like effect, you may as well compare it directly to Way of the Mole.
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest 122: That Other Way of Drawing
Post by: Gubump on July 22, 2021, 04:16:39 pm

(https://abload.de/img/way_of_the_flying_fisj6kfo.png)

A simple, but sneaky, Way (and death to hand-size attacks) Ė useful in some spots, but mostly not once you get an engine going.
He, that is my idea but in a way instead of an action XD

But this way is not useless once you get an engine going: It can be your engine. You can make an engine out of Chaining festivals. Village, terminal action and any following action is an Laboratory. Chaining Cellars/Warehouses become even more useful to sculpt your perfect hand. You greatly underestimates the power level of this way.
And you overestimate itís strength. It certainly isnít a $4 as your card.

Minion's "refill to 4" option turns a silver into a $5 action.
And draw to five is even better. That's too good to be a way card.

This Way doesn't have a desirable way of reducing your handsize built into it like Minion does, and doesn't attack like Minion does. You can't just look at one aspect of a multifaceted card like Minion and decide that specific aspect is the reason behind its price. Not to mention that discarding your hand and then DtXing is way better than just DtXing. If they were the same, Scholar would be clearly outclassed by Library. Yet Scholar is widely considered the better of the two by a significant margin.

I disagree that Way of the Flying Fish is too good. From a default handsize, it's identical to Way of the Pig, and with a bigger handsize it's Ruined Village. It's usually easier to have a large handsize than a small one. Flying Fish is usually worse than Pig imo.
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest 122: That Other Way of Drawing
Post by: segura on July 22, 2021, 04:33:50 pm

(https://abload.de/img/way_of_the_flying_fisj6kfo.png)

A simple, but sneaky, Way (and death to hand-size attacks) Ė useful in some spots, but mostly not once you get an engine going.
He, that is my idea but in a way instead of an action XD

But this way is not useless once you get an engine going: It can be your engine. You can make an engine out of Chaining festivals. Village, terminal action and any following action is an Laboratory. Chaining Cellars/Warehouses become even more useful to sculpt your perfect hand. You greatly underestimates the power level of this way.
And you overestimate itís strength. It certainly isnít a $4 as your card.

Minion's "refill to 4" option turns a silver into a $5 action.
And draw to five is even better. That's too good to be a way card.
This is wrong on so many levels. Others have pointed out that Minion discards and thus sifts and, hyperobviously, Minion is no Silver. If it were it would not be able to be the very monoengine card that it is.
It is an Action Silver and this seemingly tiny difference makes a huge difference.

Way of the Flying Fish is weak. Sure, it has some meta power like nerfing discard attacks but thatís about it. As Gubump has pointed out, its non-meta, playing strength is weaker than that of Pig.
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest 122: That Other Way of Drawing
Post by: NoMoreFun on July 22, 2021, 11:31:34 pm
I don't think a Way can be "too good" if it really needs support from other Actions.

Way of the Flying Fish can be very useful, but it doesnt mean Big Money + arbirtary actions played as the Way becomes the optimal strategy. I think it's quite interesting that the beginning of your turn is the worst time to play it, so other Actions (as themselves) will feature heavily in the game flow. I can see games with the Way being very interesting.

It looks strong compared to Way of the Mole but they're different enough and will never be in the same game.
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest 122: That Other Way of Drawing
Post by: faust on July 23, 2021, 01:59:26 am
I don't think a Way can be "too good" if it really needs support from other Actions.
That seems like a weird statement. By that reasoning, Way of the Ox would not be too good if it said "+50 Actions". Way of the King's Court would also not be too good.

A Way should be generally worse than an effect printed on any existing Action Kingdom card. These are meant to be situational benefits that could not exist as cards. Way of the Flying Fish is definitely strong enough to be a $2.
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest 122: That Other Way of Drawing
Post by: lompeluiten on July 23, 2021, 05:45:45 am

A simple, but sneaky, Way (and death to hand-size attacks) Ė useful in some spots, but mostly not once you get an engine going.
He, that is my idea but in a way instead of an action XD

But this way is not useless once you get an engine going: It can be your engine. You can make an engine out of Chaining festivals. Village, terminal action and any following action is an Laboratory. Chaining Cellars/Warehouses become even more useful to sculpt your perfect hand. You greatly underestimates the power level of this way.
And you overestimate itís strength. It certainly isnít a $4 as your card.

Minion's "refill to 4" option turns a silver into a $5 action.
And draw to five is even better. That's too good to be a way card.
This is wrong on so many levels. Others have pointed out that Minion discards and thus sifts and, hyperobviously, Minion is no Silver. If it were it would not be able to be the very monoengine card that it is.
It is an Action Silver and this seemingly tiny difference makes a huge difference.

Way of the Flying Fish is weak. Sure, it has some meta power like nerfing discard attacks but thatís about it. As Gubump has pointed out, its non-meta, playing strength is weaker than that of Pig.
They problem with ways is that it is always available. So in many games it is a bit or a bit stronger then a big. And then you get the cellar in the game, and suddenly it isn't that weak anymore. The $2 card becomes the most powerfull card in the game in an action build engine. So it's effect fluctuates heavily. From Useless, quite nice to Engine defining.

I made this type of builds sometimes, and it is quite satisfying, but with the current cards hard to pull of. But I think this is the type of build the challenge designer wants more off.
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest 122: That Other Way of Drawing
Post by: segura on July 23, 2021, 01:34:20 pm
Drawing to 5 simply isnít impressive. Jack does it and it is not really why you get Jack.
Pig is more versatile and far less situational.
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest 122: That Other Way of Drawing
Post by: X-tra on July 23, 2021, 05:58:18 pm
Darn it. Looks like my judging will have to be delayed by a day. It appears that Saturday will be quite a busy day for me, and so I will not be able to find the time to judge. So yeah. Sunday around 8:00 PM EDT it is then. Sorry y'all!
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest 122: That Other Way of Drawing
Post by: Freddy10 on July 23, 2021, 06:07:36 pm
Drawing to 5 simply isnít impressive. Jack does it and it is not really why you get Jack.
Pig is more versatile and far less situational.
You don't get an action from Jack. I think flying there are some kingdom where you can buy actions just to use as flying fish, and I doubt that happens with pig
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest 122: That Other Way of Drawing
Post by: NoMoreFun on July 23, 2021, 08:49:45 pm
I don't think a Way can be "too good" if it really needs support from other Actions.
That seems like a weird statement. By that reasoning, Way of the Ox would not be too good if it said "+50 Actions". Way of the King's Court would also not be too good.

Way of the Ox with "+50 Actions" would be game warping (basically "in games using this, dont worry about +Actions"), but the real question is whether that warped game can still be interesting and fun. Compare with Donate as an example. I think maybe it could work but the +2 Action version is more interesting (in terms of making more cards relevant as you play)

Way of the KC's problem is how it makes even lackluster "+2 Cards" and "+$2" cards super strong,  so you still get the sense KC is the star even if it's technically acting on another card. It will feel like the cards you're buying don't really matter. That makes it more like "Way of the Rebuild". The game would become "get lots of actions fast", which could work, but it would play out so quickly it would start to feel more like luck than strategy.

Its true most official Ways seem like they'd be cards around the sub $2 range (if they'd make sense as cards), but I don't think fitting in there is as important as game considerations. "Strictly better" is a problem for cards as if you have both the better and worse card in the kingdom, the worse is wasting space. But you can only play with 1 Way at a time, so it matters less.
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest 122: That Other Way of Drawing
Post by: emtzalex on July 23, 2021, 09:21:08 pm
I don't think a Way can be "too good" if it really needs support from other Actions.
That seems like a weird statement. By that reasoning, Way of the Ox would not be too good if it said "+50 Actions". Way of the King's Court would also not be too good.

A Way should be generally worse than an effect printed on any existing Action Kingdom card. These are meant to be situational benefits that could not exist as cards. Way of the Flying Fish is definitely strong enough to be a $2.

This point is belied by the existence of Way of the Mouse, which in fact plays an existing Action card (and yes, I am aware that you said generally). Trying to define the range of power of Ways is made nearly impossible by the potential for Way of the Mouse setting aside Encampment, which effectively lets you play every Action card as a better-than-$5 card (since you don't have Lost City's on-buy penalty) in addition to its existing purpose. This is massively game warping, as things like Ruins and Horses can be played as LCs, so getting them is as good as gaining a very powerful Action. Also, Turtle and Chameleon can make existing cards vastly more powerful.

While there are certainly contexts in which a Flying Fish would be useful on its own, I'm actually not sure that it could be a Kingdom card (or at least, not one worth a slot in an official expansion). There are way fewer disappearing money (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Disappearing_money) cards (which would set up a highly useful WotFF) than there are terminal draw (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Terminal_draw) cards (which are set up by Ox).
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest 122: That Other Way of Drawing
Post by: JW on July 23, 2021, 11:50:16 pm
Peon
$3
Action
Choose either: Draw until you have 6 cards in hand; or +2 Actions and +$1.

I updated my entry. It's now your Draw to X card and your +Actions in one, but neither function is very good on its own. My original version had the option of +2 Cards instead and cost $2. With the change to "draw to 6," it now combos much better with itself so a cost of $2 would be too low.
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest 122: That Other Way of Drawing
Post by: segura on July 24, 2021, 01:55:06 am
Drawing to 5 simply isnít impressive. Jack does it and it is not really why you get Jack.
Pig is more versatile and far less situational.
You don't get an action from Jack. I think flying there are some kingdom where you can buy actions just to use as flying fish, and I doubt that happens with pig
I can imagine a zillion Kingdoms in which you would buy any crappy Action to be used as Pig: Herald, Scrying Pool, Golem, Conspirator, there are many cards which want you to have more cantrips in your deck.
Now Flying Fish is situationally useful and if you include its meta strength of deterring the purchase of discard attacks I even think it is as good as Pig. But itís playing strength is far weaker. As emtzalex has pointed out, terminal and non-terminal draw is far more frequent than non-terminal non-drawing Actions and discard for benefit.
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest 122: That Other Way of Drawing
Post by: faust on July 24, 2021, 02:32:49 am
I don't think a Way can be "too good" if it really needs support from other Actions.
That seems like a weird statement. By that reasoning, Way of the Ox would not be too good if it said "+50 Actions". Way of the King's Court would also not be too good.

A Way should be generally worse than an effect printed on any existing Action Kingdom card. These are meant to be situational benefits that could not exist as cards. Way of the Flying Fish is definitely strong enough to be a $2.

This point is belied by the existence of Way of the Mouse, which in fact plays an existing Action card (and yes, I am aware that you said generally). Trying to define the range of power of Ways is made nearly impossible by the potential for Way of the Mouse setting aside Encampment, which effectively lets you play every Action card as a better-than-$5 card (since you don't have Lost City's on-buy penalty) in addition to its existing purpose. This is massively game warping, as things like Ruins and Horses can be played as LCs, so getting them is as good as gaining a very powerful Action. Also, Turtle and Chameleon can make existing cards vastly more powerful.

While there are certainly contexts in which a Flying Fish would be useful on its own, I'm actually not sure that it could be a Kingdom card (or at least, not one worth a slot in an official expansion). There are way fewer disappearing money (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Disappearing_money) cards (which would set up a highly useful WotFF) than there are terminal draw (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Terminal_draw) cards (which are set up by Ox).
Way of the Mouse was a mistake.
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest 122: That Other Way of Drawing
Post by: lompeluiten on July 24, 2021, 09:42:37 am
I don't think a Way can be "too good" if it really needs support from other Actions.
That seems like a weird statement. By that reasoning, Way of the Ox would not be too good if it said "+50 Actions". Way of the King's Court would also not be too good.

A Way should be generally worse than an effect printed on any existing Action Kingdom card. These are meant to be situational benefits that could not exist as cards. Way of the Flying Fish is definitely strong enough to be a $2.

This point is belied by the existence of Way of the Mouse, which in fact plays an existing Action card (and yes, I am aware that you said generally). Trying to define the range of power of Ways is made nearly impossible by the potential for Way of the Mouse setting aside Encampment, which effectively lets you play every Action card as a better-than-$5 card (since you don't have Lost City's on-buy penalty) in addition to its existing purpose. This is massively game warping, as things like Ruins and Horses can be played as LCs, so getting them is as good as gaining a very powerful Action. Also, Turtle and Chameleon can make existing cards vastly more powerful.

While there are certainly contexts in which a Flying Fish would be useful on its own, I'm actually not sure that it could be a Kingdom card (or at least, not one worth a slot in an official expansion). There are way fewer disappearing money (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Disappearing_money) cards (which would set up a highly useful WotFF) than there are terminal draw (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Terminal_draw) cards (which are set up by Ox).

But those are not they only synergies. There are more cards that don't draw, but isn't terminal. I can't find an list, but here are a few: Cellar, Hamlet Village, Mill, Secret Cave, outpost, Upgrade, Hidout.

And you can still get it to work with villages +an discard or Trash from hand. A bit more difficult, but not undo-able.

And ofcourse in defence of against this list:
http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Handsize_attack

It is treu for every card in this chalange, but because this is an way there is no cost involved.

On the question if it is fun. I think so.
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest 122: That Other Way of Drawing
Post by: segura on July 24, 2021, 12:25:31 pm
And ofcourse in defence of against this list:
http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Handsize_attack
The Way is not a defense like Lighthouse, it is a meta-defense, i.e. its presence makes handsize attacks pointless in the Kingdom.
The presence of handsize attacks in a Kingdom has absolutely no influence upon the playing power of the Way.
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest 122: That Other Way of Drawing
Post by: lompeluiten on July 24, 2021, 04:01:11 pm
And ofcourse in defence of against this list:
http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Handsize_attack
The Way is not a defense like Lighthouse, it is a meta-defense, i.e. its presence makes handsize attacks pointless in the Kingdom.
The presence of handsize attacks in a Kingdom has absolutely no influence upon the playing power of the Way.
Where going deep here xD There is power of threat is an power, isn't it? Even when not used, it does warp the game. But you can analyse it as depowering those cards.

In either case, this is not unique to this way, but all cards in this challenge. And this analyses also true for the lighthouse: It depowers all attack cards by it's mere presence: "maybe going deep into the attacks might not be a good choice with the lighthouse in the game". And the other way around is also true: If the other player buys an attack card, this will increase the power level of your lighthouses.

What is different here that it is an way, so everyone has acces to it, most of the time. But protecting yourself from an hand size attack with it still has a cost: Playing an action card you might want to play differently.
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest 122: That Other Way of Drawing
Post by: mathdude on July 24, 2021, 10:50:46 pm
Atheneum
$5 - Action-Attack

If this is the first Atheneum you've played this turn, +1 Card, +1 Action, each other player with 4 or more cards in hand puts one onto their deck. Otherwise, draw until you have 8 cards in hand and each other player draws until they have 5 cards in hand.

...

DtX for all players, sort of.

So its first play is a cantrip, half as bad of an attack as Ghost Ship (that in games with 3+ players can stack to be just like Ghost Ship). But if you land 2 in a turn, absent of any other cards, you negate the attack, and end up just at +4 cards. However, a 3rd (which requires village support) is mostly useless.

Of course, it's rare you would have 2 of these and nothing else. If you have Labs first, the 2nd Atheneum is weak. But if you have non-terminals (that don't draw), like Minion or Coven, then 2 Atheneums are great (even better with Festival, combining the non-terminal, non-draw with village support!)

Outtake:
Initially, I had it not attacking. First play was +1 Action, draw to 6. All future plays were draw to 8.
The first play compared to a Lab, but was worse if you played Lab first, had Hireling in play, etc... and was better if you played Minions, etc. first. But the second play was a Smithy, absent of other cards and that was too weak (especially with a 3rd being +1 Card, effectively). I considered draw to 9 curr the 2nd play, and that may have been okay... but I like the attack version better.
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest 122: That Other Way of Drawing
Post by: X-tra on July 24, 2021, 11:41:21 pm
24 HOURS REMAINING!
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest 122: That Other Way of Drawing
Post by: Unjer on July 24, 2021, 11:43:53 pm
(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/821069859143417943/867523447352328214/Broker_10.png)
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest 122: That Other Way of Drawing
Post by: MochaMoko on July 25, 2021, 04:44:38 am
(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/685147225470271508/868775381837156362/Sorceress_2.png)

Quote
Sorceress
⑤ Action - Attack

+1 Card
+1 Action

Discard a card.
If it's an Action, each other
player gains a Curse.
Otherwise, +②.

It's a super Oasis, that can sometimes Curse players if you want to. I've got nothing else to say about it.
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest 122: That Other Way of Drawing
Post by: fika monster on July 25, 2021, 10:02:38 am
(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/685147225470271508/868775381837156362/Sorceress_2.png)

Quote
Sorceress
⑤ Action - Attack

+1 Card
+1 Action

Discard a card.
If it's an Action, each other
player gains a Curse.
Otherwise, +②.

It's a super Oasis, that can sometimes Curse players if you want to. I've got nothing else to say about it.


I cant see how this fulfills the "Draw to X" requirement.
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest 122: That Other Way of Drawing
Post by: Gubump on July 25, 2021, 11:06:17 am
(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/685147225470271508/868775381837156362/Sorceress_2.png)

Quote
Sorceress
⑤ Action - Attack

+1 Card
+1 Action

Discard a card.
If it's an Action, each other
player gains a Curse.
Otherwise, +②.

It's a super Oasis, that can sometimes Curse players if you want to. I've got nothing else to say about it.


I cant see how this fulfills the "Draw to X" requirement.

or a card that helps activate a draw-to-X engine.

This helps activate a DtX engine by being net negative to handsize while producing (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/6/6d/Coin.png/16px-Coin.png).
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest 122: That Other Way of Drawing
Post by: X-tra on July 25, 2021, 08:25:12 pm
SUBMISSIONS CLOSED

I will take about a day to judge. So I guess this is some sort of delay on top of a delay. Neat! (I'm sorry though...)
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest 122: That Other Way of Drawing
Post by: X-tra on July 26, 2021, 02:08:51 pm
CONTEST 122 RESULTS

22 entries if I didn't miscount. God I hope I didn't. Multiple apologies if that's the case. Perhaps I should've tallied the entries before jumping directly to judging as other smarter people have done before me. Ugh. I'm already late as it is though, and my punctual self can only take so much, heh. Anyway, many entries means many ways in which I can screw up my judging. Don't take what I say here personally, I ain't no expert. Just a guy who enjoys some Dominion. So mostly, I will pick my winner, finalists and semifinalists based on how much I like the card over how balanced it is. I am in no mood to do a systematic analysis of everything, and empirically determining how much a card should truly cost and yaddi yadda. Nope.avi.

Still, I will try my best to give some constructive thoughts. Hopefully, said thoughts are not tooooo far off being reasonable. A man can dream. Anyway. Self deprecation over, it's judging time!




First of all, we will analyse cards that can be a good component in a draw-to-X engine without being draw-to-X cards themselves. Iím happy to see some entries in this category, as I thought most people would find making an actual draw-to-X card more appealing. Anyway, hereís what weíve got:

(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/3/32/Coin3.png/16px-Coin3.png) Corbita (Action Ė Duration)
+(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/3/3d/Coin2.png/16px-Coin2.png)
At the start of your next turn, reveal and discard any number of Action or Treasure cards for +(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/f/f7/Coin1.png/16px-Coin1.png) each.
This is probably a bottom median card, what with it being a half turn terminal Silver. These type of cards really do struggle to fight for terminal space. And here, rotating Corbitas by playing 2 copies, one per turn, doesnít seem as efficient as doing it with stuff like Dungeon or Enchantress. However, I think, the power is unique and cool, and there is no question it is a strong draw-to-X enabler. Perhaps it relies too much on that type of interaction to be worth it, but I say that the unique bonus makes it a fine card. Itís up to the player to determine how to best exploit Corbita!

(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/7/7d/Coin5.png/16px-Coin5.png) Refuge (Action)
+1 Action
+1 Buy
Exile from 1 to 3 differently named cards from your hand.
The comparison to Temple was correct, I believe. After all, the non-Vanilla effect is pretty much borrowed from that card. You keep the (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/9/92/VP.png/16px-VP.png) though, for the best or the worse (Exiling Estate + Curse, for instance). Probably for the best, letís be real. This card seems pretty comfortable at its power level. I wonder why the +1 Buy was added, but Iím not against it. Just curious. Either way, the card is fine. Itís a good, but expensive thinner. Such cards have a place in Dominion. If you run a draw-to-X engine with this, I can see players being forced to Exile stronger cards. But thatís okay: you can always get them back.

(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/7/7d/Coin5.png/16px-Coin5.png) Sorceress (Action Ė Attack)
+1 Card
+1 Action
Discard a card. If itís an Action card, each other player gains a Curse. Otherwise, +(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/3/3d/Coin2.png/16px-Coin2.png).
Och, a cantrip Attack cardÖ and a curser as well! To give a Curse, you need to fulfill a difficult condition, but at least you do not need to invest into a Potion to get this Familiar-esque curser. In a draw engine, this will be quite nasty I believe. The payload option, while easier to obtain, is nothing too crazy. Itís sort of a mix between Oasis and Mill. But this costs (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/7/7d/Coin5.png/16px-Coin5.png), so again, nothing too crazy. All in all, the card seems fine, until you get that one game where someone finds a quick and easy way to turn your deck into a pile of Curses, haha!

(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/3/3d/Coin2.png/16px-Coin2.png) Town Square (Action)
+2 Actions
+1 Buy
Look at the top card of your deck. You may discard it.
Cute, elegant, a card totally worth existing. Wouldíve been a perfect fit in the Base game (an additional Village wouldnít hurt, a cheap source of Buys is needed, the top deck inspection works with some other Base cards). Villages that do not draw work good with draw-to-X, and here the additional bonuses are good for you. Iíd pick this over Native Village any day, but then again, I am a pretty strong Native Village hater, heh. Okay well, Town Squareís good, so huzzah!

(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/2/2a/Coin4.png/16px-Coin4.png) Wizardís Tower (Action Ė Victory)
+2 Cards
+1 Action
Reveal your hand and discard all Victory cards and cards costing (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/5/5d/Coin0.png/16px-Coin0.png).
-----
1(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/9/92/VP.png/16px-VP.png)
I think you best said it yourself. Itís a Laboratory that completely throws the Lab chaining out of the window. Getting multiple copies of this thus seems like a poor idea. I somehow canít shake the feeling that this smells like Great Hall, although, my intuition could seriously be off here. I donít see myself opening with a Wizardís Tower everÖ and so Iím having trouble judging when and if I want one of these in my deck at some point. This card certainly tries to fill some kind of niche, but itís hard to find which one. Discarding for draw-to-X seems appealing, but you get no bonus from discarding at all. It justÖ sort of happen. Mill gives you some dosh at least.



Then we arrive at the core of it: cards that actually do some draw-to-X stuff. As expected, this category has received the most submissions. Let us take a look:

(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/7/7d/Coin5.png/16px-Coin5.png) Atheneum (Action Ė Attack)
If this is the first Atheneum you played this turn, +1 Card, +1 Action and each other player with 4 or more cards in hand puts one onto their deck. Otherwise, draw until you have 8 cards in hand and each other player draws until they have 5 cards in hand.
There are simply too many words here for what this card does. Itís got all this text to make you Attack, then undo the Attack andÖ where are we going with this? I mean, I understand the concept behind this, and I think there is something worth exploring here. Itís justÖ itís so needlessly complex for a marginal effect. Draw to 8 cards is a tough idea to balance, so I am glad someone took a shot at that. We have discussed this rather intensively on Discord once, and the conclusion was that it was indeed a really tough effect to try for. Maybe the buffer Atheneum you must play before you get to have the big draw is a good idea, but thatís something that is easier to determine after a couple of play testing sessions.

(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/2/2a/Coin4.png/16px-Coin4.png) Book Seller (Action Ė Reaction)
+1 Action
You may discard a card. Draw until you have 5 cards in hand.
I am glad you updated this card. The first version had serious problems with the Reaction, since it did not mention that it had to be discarded outside of Clean-up. This meant that every Book Seller you played would be discarded from play during Clean-up, increasing your next handsize by 5 cards. Nuts! But this was then, and this is now. For this version of Book Seller, it works. It works, but itís a little on the boring side Iíd say. It is a discard before Lab when you chain them, which sounds fine at (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/2/2a/Coin4.png/16px-Coin4.png). Like I said, I guess only the dull aspect of Book Seller is something I have a beef with, which is super subjective and personal.

(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/7/7d/Coin5.png/16px-Coin5.png) Bookstore (Action Ė Reaction)
You may spend an unused Action (Action, not Action card), to discard up to 7 cards. Draw until you have 7 cards in hand.
-----
At the start of your turn, you may reveal this from your hand, to play it.
I had trouble to understand the subtleties of this card after a quick glance. I believe that this is indicative of a card thatís perhaps a little too complex. It is weird to me that you spend double Actions to get the full effect of Bookstore when you play it sans the Reaction. Especially since only one component of the card gets unlocked whereas you always draw no matter what. This feels non-cohesive, even if the second effect strongly benefits from the former. When reacting with this, you could essentially give up on your Action phase to draw a lot, which seems to be a desirable effect in money-centric strategies. Or you could React without spending an Action to get something akin to Duration draw. I think the card is versatile enough, which is cool. My beef is only toward how hard it takes you to re-read the card to fully comprehend it.

(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/2/2a/Coin4.png/16px-Coin4.png) Broker (Action)
Reveal any number of Treasures from your hand. Put them on the bottom of your deck in any order, then draw until you have 6 cards in hand.
Misleadingly fun! It doesnít look like much on the surface, but this makes you build engine-y decks that actually want Treasures in it. This is the cool way of playing Dominion. The fact that you stack your hoard of yellows under your deck means that you can keep going with your turn and grab your payload back later. Pretty clever in my opinion. And unique as well. Save for Pearl Diver, pretty much nothing deals with the bottom of your deck in Dominion. This does it. And it does it in a cool way. I like Broker.

(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/7/7d/Coin5.png/16px-Coin5.png) Council of Elders (Action)
+1 Buy
All players (including you) may discard a card. Draw until you have 7 cards in hand.
Short and to the point, this card is very easy to assess. I will always praise good and efficient design like this. The +1 Buy doesnít feel out of place at all here too. Itís interesting to see that on a draw-to-X card. Dominion has never done it before. The one little thing I might say here is that I think perhaps other players should get something for discarding, ŗ la Vault. Otherwise, if they are not mirroring the draw-to-X deck, there is almost zero reasons why theyíd discard. For newer players, it sounds like a trap effect. ďDiscarding for nothing? Huh? Why would I do that? Are you trying to pull a quick one on me, Greg?Ē. Overall, neat card.

(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/7/7d/Coin5.png/16px-Coin5.png) Flywheel (Action)
Trash a card from your hand. Draw until you have 6 cards in hand.
Beautiful. One might argue that this should perhaps cost (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/6/6f/Coin6.png/16px-Coin6.png), as it is a trashing Smithy and this seems on the higher end of those (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/7/7d/Coin5.png/16px-Coin5.png) variants. I think Iíd leave it as-is for now, and check where it stands after play testing it. Itís an easy adjustment anyway. My take on Flywheel is this: Itís very simple and elegant and, like, I love it. Yay!

(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/2/2a/Coin4.png/16px-Coin4.png) Geographer (Action)
+2 Actions
You may discard a card from your hand. If you did, draw until you have cards in hand equal to its cost in (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/6/6d/Coin.png/16px-Coin.png).
Ohhh what a cool unique effect! I would like to compare this to Apprentice, since it draws according to a certain cardís cost, but these two cards arenít that close after all. This is cheaper, is a Village, does not trash and will draw less. So, plusses and minuses. Early on in the game, this is not too good. In fact, I cannot recommend opening with a Geographer. Even if you discard your bought Silver, you do not draw. Later on in the game, though, it starts becoming more appealing. It is a Lost City if you discard a (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/7/7d/Coin5.png/16px-Coin5.png), whichÖ I donít think you want to do that often. Discarding a Province, though, mama mia! +5 Cards and +2 Actions. Go nuts. If you have a way to collide these two cards to make it happen, there could be something really good here. Your subsequent Geographers wonít do too much if you pull that off, but spiking a big draw is probably all you need to get going anyway. To reiterate: Cool effect!

(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/3/32/Coin3.png/16px-Coin3.png) Industrious Guide (Action)
Reveal your hand. Discard all non-Action cards. Draw until you have 6 cards in hand.
Looks tough to use in an engine (youíll have mostly Action cards) and undesirable in a money-centric strategy (youíll draw more, at the expense of discarding all of your Treasures). In your engine, this might net in being a +2 or +3 Cards, which, okay. But if you utilize stuff like Native Village, Fishing Village, Necropolis, or Inn, then it looks better. These are the cards to be on the lookout for. Anyway, pretty straightforward card, albeit looks a little difficult to use efficiently, perhaps.

(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/7/7d/Coin5.png/16px-Coin5.png) Scribe (Action Ė Duration Ė Reaction)
+1 Action
Either now or at the start of your next turn, draw until you have 6 cards in hand.
-----
When you discard this other than during Clean-up, you may play it.
Iím really not trying to take a jab or anything, but to me, this is kind of the fixed version of the first iteration of Book Seller, since it addresses my biggest concern with it. It even adds a nice Duration clause, mimicking that of Village Green. This makes it an excellent defense against discarding Attacks. Well, the first one does. Subsequent discarded Scribes will do nothing, and youíre better off putting them in your discard pile first instead of uselessly making them miss a turn. Multiple Village Greens will thus stack in the face of Attacks, while Scribes will not, however they will do more the first time you react with one. Pretty neat Iíd say! Maybe this is stepping a little bit on Village Greenís quirk, what with Scribe being orange and blue and sharing the same Reaction, but I think this works anyway. I can see myself trying to play the minigame of ďhow can I discard my Scribes this gameÖĒ And this is a fun minigame. I like Scribe is what Iím trying to say, lol.

(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/6/6f/Coin6.png/16px-Coin6.png) Sheriff (Action Ė Duration)
Now and at the start of your next turn: Discard 2 cards, then draw until you have 7 cards in hand.
The Sheriffís in town yíall! At (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/6/6f/Coin6.png/16px-Coin6.png), he certainly packs a punch. Discarding 2 before drawing to 7 is strong, but having it as a Duration effect is really strong. +4 Cards at the start of your turn after sifting is undeniably a powerful effect. This might be one of the most potent draw card in the game actually, ha! I said I didnít want to enter cost debate, but letís consider for a moment that this card might cost (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/b/bc/Coin7.png/16px-Coin7.png). It certainly would have a place in the small exclusive club of (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/b/bc/Coin7.png/16px-Coin7.png) cards. I would test both versions and see which one comes on top. All in all, while strong, Sheriff is, above all, interesting. Duration draw-to-X has not made an appearance yet in Dominion, and Iím happy to see this idea being exploited. In such an elegant way too! So all in all, I give the Sheriff a thumbs up.

(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/2/2a/Coin4.png/16px-Coin4.png) Tidy Town (Action Ė Attack)
+2 Actions
Each player (including you) discards any number of cards from their hand, then reveals a hand with only Actions and Treasures. Then, draw until you have 4 cards in hand.
What a crazy Attack! This might make someone discard down to 2 cards or less if they have 1 or more green cards in their hand. No Attack in Dominion can leave you with such a small start-of-turn handsize. If your hand is something like ďVillage, Village, Silver, Silver, EstateĒ, then normally a Militia would make you discard something like Estate and Silver. Maybe. But here, it goes beyond that and makes you discard an extra Silver. Or might as well toss the 2 Villages at this point. Point is, it can be extra mean if you have Victory cards in hand. This looks appealing in non-trashing boards. The perk you get when you play Tidy Town sounds like it could potentially be a Village, more or less. So thatís my take here. I just fear that the Attack can cut too deep if youíre unlucky enough to have a hand such as the one I described above.

(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/7/7d/Coin5.png/16px-Coin5.png) Tome (Treasure)
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/f/f7/Coin1.png/16px-Coin1.png)
Draw until you have 5 cards in hand.
People in this thread have compared this to Venture and I think I will echo these thoughts. The fact that you can play this as your last Treasure is really good. You refill your hand. You can rinse and repeat with the Treasures you drew if you drew or had another Tome in hand. This could lead to boring ďbuy nothing but Treasures and TomesĒ decks, which, I dunno, could be worrisome. One thing is for sure however: this card is sexy clean. 2 line of text is a beautiful sight.

Way of the Flying Fish (Way)
+1 Action
Draw until you have 5 cards in hand.
Quite the controversial card this week! Now Iím almost too scared to say stuff about it, since it has been debated so much already. Well, to me, when I first saw it, I figured this card landed somewhere between Way of the Mole and Way of the Owl. Seeing that these 2 Ways already exist made this a little less unique for me. See, Iím not looking at the power level right now, Iím talking about this Way out of pure feels, lol. Though if I took my own personal shot at this card regarding its strength, I would say that it might be on the stronger side of Ways. I feel like there is quite a few ways (lol) you can make Way of the Flying Fish work and build an engine around it. You sift with Warehouse, then you Lab with any other Action card in your hand, for instance. Anyway, thatís just my take on this, Iím ready to have it demolished, hahaha!



Finally, we have a couple of outliers that act as some sort of hybrid between draw-to-X cards and draw-to-X activators. But! Perhaps this weird combo will offer some interesting ideas. Letís check it out:

(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/7/7d/Coin5.png/16px-Coin5.png) Bookkeeper (Action)
Choose one: +2 Coffers; or draw until the number of cards in your hand equals your Coffers.
Unquestionably a very unique effect. Props to you for coming up with such a bombastic and fun idea! I feel like this can snowball to crazy levels though, since the draw is technically unbounded. People play Butcher for the 2 Coffers without trashing, and it is often the correct play to stockpile said Coffers. Players might tend to do the same here. It does however take a while to get going. Only when you play your 4th Bookkeeper do you start getting some kind of draw. The slow pace of it is perhaps whatís keeping Bookkeeper in check. Yet somehowÖ God I just really fear that one explosive deck. Throning this, for instance, considerably accelerates the point of non-return abuse in a game. All in all, people will probably take this to try for the draw. Otherwise, they took a Villain without an Attack.

(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/7/7d/Coin5.png/16px-Coin5.png) Clock of the Time Dragon (Action)
Discard a card. If it was a Treasure, +2 Actions and +(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/3/3d/Coin2.png/16px-Coin2.png). Otherwise, draw until you have 6 cards in hand.
Okay, that is a badass name for a card. I needed to say that first. The card itself looks really fun to play too. It is a little reminiscent of Minion. I feel like you could build a deck of these Dragons, and try to manage a healthy balance of Treasures and Action cards. I like that you discard the Treasure for payload, since you might draw it again when you activate your draw-to-X. Beautifully designed!

(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/3/32/Coin3.png/16px-Coin3.png) Odd-Jobber (Action)
+1 Action
Choose one: Play up to 3 Treasures from your hand; or draw until you have 5 cards in hand.
If you have an odd number of Treasures in play, +1 Buy.
First of all, I think I could do without the bottom clause. The whole ďodd numberĒ for the Buy thingy. The minigame of Odd-Jobber is to play a deck which wants Treasures and Action cards, like Storyteller. To streamline it, I donít believe it needs the extra minigame just for a Buy. But thatís just my personal opinion. I mentioned Storyteller; this is highly reminiscent of this to me. Played from a hand of 6 cards or less, each Treasure you play is +1 Card. Storyteller makes you draw more according to the value of played Treasures, but here, you actually get to cash them in. So the comparison is healthy, I believe. If my assumption is correct, then this would be a bit underpriced. Iím only speculating here, so itís not a strike against Odd-Jobber by any means. I just love spit balling, often incorrectly, about Dominion stuff. :P

(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/3/32/Coin3.png/16px-Coin3.png) Peon (Action)
Choose one: Draw until you have 6 cards in hands; or +2 Actions and +(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/f/f7/Coin1.png/16px-Coin1.png).
Simply put, I think Clock of the Time Dragon tries that effect in a more interesting way. There is a minigame going on with Clock of the Time Dragon, whereas here, it is way more straightforward and monolithic. And it is cheap too, so why not. Tossing a bunch of Peons in your deck to build around it sounds totally feasible. The end result doesnít sound too thrilling though. Maybe a clever player adds a good trasher and some decent payload cards in there too. So yeah. I think the monolithic aspect of this card seems a little too upfront.




Semifinialist: Broker ; Refuge ; Corbita ; Geographer ; Scribe

Finalists: Clock of the Time Dragon ; Flywheel ; Town Square

Winner: Sheriff

Clock of the Time Dragon almost won this one. But I decided to enact Sheriff as the winner, as it is more unique (no Duration draw-to-X in Dominion thus far), and less monolithic (Minion syndrome). Town Square and Flywheel were likewise strong contenders, if only because of how darn elegant they are, but Sheriff is triggering something in my brain that makes me go: ďOoooh ye babyyy!Ē And like, I gotta listen to the brain, I suppose. One might say Sheriff is too strong, to which I reply: ďTake it to Donald, the man who made Wharf.Ē

So there you have it! Congratulations, AJL828! And a good round of applause for all these beautiful entries we have been blessed with this week!
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest 122: That Other Way of Drawing
Post by: xyz123 on July 26, 2021, 04:04:47 pm
Thanks for organising it X-tra.
Congratulations AJL828
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest 122: That Other Way of Drawing
Post by: JW on July 26, 2021, 05:31:22 pm
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/7/7d/Coin5.png/16px-Coin5.png) Flywheel (Action)
Trash a card from your hand. Draw until you have 6 cards in hand.
Beautiful. One might argue that this should perhaps cost (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/6/6f/Coin6.png/16px-Coin6.png), as it is a trashing Smithy and this seems on the higher end of those (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/7/7d/Coin5.png/16px-Coin5.png) variants. I think Iíd leave it as-is for now, and check where it stands after play testing it. Itís an easy adjustment anyway. My take on Flywheel is this: Itís very simple and elegant and, like, I love it. Yay!

Thanks for proposing and judging this fun contest! I think you substantially over-estimate the power of Flywheel. The trashing is mandatory, which dramatically limits its utility as a draw engine because you will generally run out of cards that you want to trash.
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest 122: That Other Way of Drawing
Post by: Gubump on July 26, 2021, 05:36:38 pm
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/7/7d/Coin5.png/16px-Coin5.png) Flywheel (Action)
Trash a card from your hand. Draw until you have 6 cards in hand.
Beautiful. One might argue that this should perhaps cost (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/6/6f/Coin6.png/16px-Coin6.png), as it is a trashing Smithy and this seems on the higher end of those (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/7/7d/Coin5.png/16px-Coin5.png) variants. I think Iíd leave it as-is for now, and check where it stands after play testing it. Itís an easy adjustment anyway. My take on Flywheel is this: Itís very simple and elegant and, like, I love it. Yay!

Thanks for proposing and judging this fun contest! I think you substantially over-estimate the power of Flywheel. The trashing is mandatory, which dramatically limits its utility as a draw engine because you will generally run out of cards that you want to trash.

I disagree; that applies to all cards with mandatory trashing. Trashing, even when mandatory, is almost universally seen as an upside even for engine-oriented cards that aren't even TfB, like Junk Dealer and Hideout.

I do agree with its price of (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/7/7d/Coin5.png/16px-Coin5.png) over pricing it at (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/6/6f/Coin6.png/16px-Coin6.png), but not because of the trashing being mandatory, but because the trashing occurs before the drawing.
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest 122: That Other Way of Drawing
Post by: X-tra on July 26, 2021, 05:46:14 pm
I disagree; that applies to all cards with mandatory trashing. Trashing, even when mandatory, is almost universally seen as an upside even for engine-oriented cards that aren't even TfB, like Junk Dealer and Hideout.

I do agree with its price of (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/7/7d/Coin5.png/16px-Coin5.png) over pricing it at (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/6/6f/Coin6.png/16px-Coin6.png), but not because of the trashing being mandatory, but because the trashing occurs before the drawing.

You might just be right about this. But trashing enables draw, so it must be built like this. It is probably fine at (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/7/7d/Coin5.png/16px-Coin5.png). In my own words, "I'd leave it as-is". It was just an hypothesis that hinges on the result of a couple of playtesting games. But it's fair to say that even without having played any games with Flywheel, it definitely smells like a (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/7/7d/Coin5.png/16px-Coin5.png).
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest 122: That Other Way of Drawing
Post by: JW on July 26, 2021, 06:54:03 pm
I disagree; that applies to all cards with mandatory trashing. Trashing, even when mandatory, is almost universally seen as an upside even for engine-oriented cards that aren't even TfB, like Junk Dealer and Hideout.

I do agree with its price of (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/7/7d/Coin5.png/16px-Coin5.png) over pricing it at (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/6/6f/Coin6.png/16px-Coin6.png), but not because of the trashing being mandatory, but because the trashing occurs before the drawing.

As a general matter I don't disagree with you. But "draw to X" doesn't combo well with the much more common +Cards sources of draw (think of a Smithy/Flywheel engine). Sure, if you can build a combined Flywheel / other draw to X engine, it's a great addition. But you can't plan on Flywheel being your only draw because of the mandatory trashing, so you're going to need other draw, and that probably won't be other draw to X because of its rarity. Similarly, if you can't count on having "draw to X" forever, you can't add as many other cards that go particularly well with it (such as non-terminal sources of coins).

Edit: to put it slightly differently, I'm not convinced that Flywheel is better than an Action that read: Trash a card from your hand. +3 Cards. But that action would be a good $5. "Trash a card from your hand. +2 Cards." That card would get bought at $5 (which goes to show how powerful Masquerade is!), but I don't think it would be strong for a trasher.   Remind me to think before posting next time ;D
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest 122: That Other Way of Drawing
Post by: Gubump on July 27, 2021, 12:03:13 am
I disagree; that applies to all cards with mandatory trashing. Trashing, even when mandatory, is almost universally seen as an upside even for engine-oriented cards that aren't even TfB, like Junk Dealer and Hideout.

I do agree with its price of (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/7/7d/Coin5.png/16px-Coin5.png) over pricing it at (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/6/6f/Coin6.png/16px-Coin6.png), but not because of the trashing being mandatory, but because the trashing occurs before the drawing.

Edit: to put it slightly differently, I'm not convinced that Flywheel is better than an Action that read: "Trash a card from your hand. +2 Cards." That card would get bought at $5 (which goes to show how powerful Masquerade is!), but I don't think it would be strong for a trasher.

1. Flywheel draws 3 cards from a default handsize, not 2. You're down to 3 cards in hand before drawing.
2. "Trash a card from your hand. +2 Cards." Is not printable at $5. That compares poorly to Masquerade and is strictly worse than Recruiter.
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest 122: That Other Way of Drawing
Post by: majiponi on July 27, 2021, 05:58:28 pm
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/3/32/Coin3.png/16px-Coin3.png) Industrious Guide (Action)
Reveal your hand. Discard all non-Action cards. Draw until you have 6 cards in hand.
Looks tough to use in an engine (youíll have mostly Action cards) and undesirable in a money-centric strategy (youíll draw more, at the expense of discarding all of your Treasures). In your engine, this might net in being a +2 or +3 Cards, which, okay. But if you utilize stuff like Native Village, Fishing Village, Necropolis, or Inn, then it looks better. These are the cards to be on the lookout for. Anyway, pretty straightforward card, albeit looks a little difficult to use efficiently, perhaps.

It lets me discard useless cards like Provinces or untrashed Coppers, and cycles my deck to let me play Action cards faster.
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest 122: That Other Way of Drawing
Post by: NoMoreFun on July 27, 2021, 07:44:22 pm
Thank you for judging


(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/2/2a/Coin4.png/16px-Coin4.png) Tidy Town (Action Ė Attack)
+2 Actions
Each player (including you) discards any number of cards from their hand, then reveals a hand with only Actions and Treasures. Then, draw until you have 4 cards in hand.
What a crazy Attack! This might make someone discard down to 2 cards or less if they have 1 or more green cards in their hand. No Attack in Dominion can leave you with such a small start-of-turn handsize. If your hand is something like ďVillage, Village, Silver, Silver, EstateĒ, then normally a Militia would make you discard something like Estate and Silver. Maybe. But here, it goes beyond that and makes you discard an extra Silver. Or might as well toss the 2 Villages at this point. Point is, it can be extra mean if you have Victory cards in hand. This looks appealing in non-trashing boards. The perk you get when you play Tidy Town sounds like it could potentially be a Village, more or less. So thatís my take here. I just fear that the Attack can cut too deep if youíre unlucky enough to have a hand such as the one I described above.

Just to clarify, the attack is "Reveal a hand with only Actions and Treasures" not "only Actions or only Treasures". So a hand of 2 Silvers, 2 Villages and an Estate, the only card that they need to discard is the Estate. The intent of the attack is that they only need to discard the "junk" cards from their hand - not a strong attack but it can be quite irritating if you have sifters or wanted to trash that junk.