When one or more Season cards are in the Supply, use the Season mat. The Season Mat has 20 spaces on it that go in a circle, and shows the 4 Seasons. A token is used to track the current time of year, starting the game on space 1, the first of Spring. After each full round (that is, after the last player in turn order took their turn) the token is moved forward one space. After each 5 turns a new Season begins. Summer starts with turn 6, Fall with turn 11, and Winter with 16. After turn 20 it is Spring again, and so on. Season cards check the current Season and do different things depending on it.
I personally think 20 turns for a full cycle is a bit antiquated. In 2013, a game lasting 20 turns was pretty conceivable, and slogs were more common. I think the average turn length of games has decreased by almost 2 turns since the days of isotropic if I recall correctly. Therefore, I think it appropriate to use for myself (and anyone else who agrees with my assessment), a 12-turn tracker. This way one would be guaranteed to at least reach winter in most games (assuming we start in spring), since even the fastest strategies on average end around turns 10-11, with normal games of 14-15 turns still just barely into the new spring. It also has the added benefit of thematically fitting with the 12 months of the year, which I think is nice. Here is a sample tracker I found:
(https://thumbs.dreamstime.com/z/season-circle-diagram-chart-icon-sign-month-time-vector-design-season-circle-diagram-chart-icon-sign-month-time-158919215.jpg)
I will replace the above picture with one I am making in photoshop. Either way, I think this concept can be very interesting!
If the intention was for Spring to not be seen again, then I don't see why 20 was chosen, since plenty of games go past 20. I thought it was more intuitive that you'd want to see Spring again, because you're obviously not going to play the cards in the first two turns, and that leaves Spring in basically t3-5, meaning any card that mentions Spring with the 20 turn system either needs to be an opener or is just irrelevant, and I don't think that's smart design wise. In fact, I think it would be more interesting with an approach that does see Spring again most games, it makes that season relevant and is kind of nice thematically. If its 20 turns, then Winter effects are just going to be sad in general because most games you'll just never see them. So I don't see why making two seasons virtually irrelevant is worth ensuring seasons don't double up (which honestly doesn't seem that big an issue anyway. I'd rather expect to be able to see at least an entire season most games than just expect to end around Autumn). However all that said, I can see the argument for 16 turns, since that's just a bit longer than the average game.
Anyway, here is my first attempt at a card (built for a 12 or 16 turn season).
(https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/797106542360002570/860798308091822110/Tempest.png)
No idea if this is balanced, still testing the waters a bit. Not sure if seasons as a whole should be stronger or weaker than their each individual effect. I went with strongest in winter/autumn and weakest in spring/summer here.
It is obviously overpowered.
Fugitive and a cantrip that trashes are $4.5, cantrip workshop is a $5 and Lab plus Market Square is at least a $6.
Sift, trash, gain, draw. That's ALWAYS useful.
Compost • $4 • Action - Season
Trash a card from your hand.
In Spring, you may also trash a Copper from your hand.
In Summer, gain a card costing exactly $1 more than it.
In Autumn, gain a card that shares a type with it; if it costs more, trash this.
In Winter, gain a Victory card that costs less than it.
[...]Designed with a 4-turn season (16-turn year) in mind, starting with T1/2 being in winter, T3 starting spring.I like the idea of starting two turns before spring. Since there are no action cards in hand in the first two turns, you automatically start with spring in the third turn.
the autumn one might be a little too bananas. idk.
Tried to color-match one of segura's old season cards (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=18987.msg826420#msg826420), which iirc used asper's original colors.
(https://i.imgur.com/cFg5apRh.png) | Quote from: Werebear
|
(https://trello-attachments.s3.amazonaws.com/6019de42b869588d9701fbff/60e0ee5316d38e037710e35e/90bf126751bd7d9792a796a968d2a5de/image.png)
Tried to color-match one of segura's old season cards (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=18987.msg826420#msg826420), which iirc used asper's original colors.
Granary - $4
Victory - Season
1VP
-
When you gain this, if it is...
Spring, trash 3 cards you have in play.
Summer, gain a non-Victory card costing up to $5.
Fall or Winter, +1VP, +1 Coffers.
When do you not want to sift, gain or draw? I literally always want to!
Sift, trash, gain, draw. That's ALWAYS useful.
It's always useful *when you want it*.
You can be too thin but that is unlikely to be the case in Summer.
So the first version of this card is always useful and notions like consistency, lack of control or whatever are of minor relevance.
I totally disagree. Cantrip trashers like Junk Dealer and Upgrade are very much used in the midgame and are certainly worth far more than cantrips. You are right that you prefer them immediately in the opening but that doesn’t make midgame trashing worthless. Same with a Double Lab, that is always powerful.
The notion that you gotta somehow average these powerful effects as you don’t get them during the entire part of the game and that this makes the card basically a Harbinger, a cantrip with a minor bonus, is simply wrong as you get a strong effect in all Seasons.
When do you not want to sift, gain or draw? I literally always want to!
Sift, trash, gain, draw. That's ALWAYS useful.
It's always useful *when you want it*.
You can be too thin but that is unlikely to be the case in Summer.
So the first version of this card is always useful and notions like consistency, lack of control or whatever are of minor relevance.
I think you misunderstood. I never said there would be times where you wouldn't want those effects, I said there would be many times you *would* want a particular effect from tempest but can't get it cause its not the right season. Its worse than "x" because its not "x" every time you want "x". Put a different way, how much would a card that said "+1 Card, +1 Action, If its turn 6, 7, or 8, trash a card from your hand" be worth? If you said $4.5, you're dead wrong. That's barely worth more than a straight cantrip, $2.5 or $3 at most. Likewise for each of the other effects. A card that was "+1 Card, +3 Actions, +1 Buy, but only if its turns 12, 13, or 14" would similarly be so much worse than Worker's village. Putting all 4 barely-more-than-cantrip effects together just gets you back to $4.
Now if the effects are not or not always useful in that very season the card is naturally weaker.
Your second version looks decent, you get strong effects in Spring and Summer but not for long. Especially the Winter effect is weak (either you want villages and have some in your deck already, so the marginal benefit of extra villages is small, or you don’t want villages anyway and the card is basically just a Market Square) and should compensate for the strength of the card early on.
I already made this very point in a previous post: Workers Village is an engine piece so having this on a Season card is weak due to matching issues. Not so with single card engine pieces like Fugitive or cantrip trasher that do not have to be matched with anything (that’s why non-terminal draw is so powerful).
Going with the original 20 turn year.
(https://i.imgur.com/jKRnpWx.png)
Thematically the idea is that the loot diminishes over time with all the Pirates plundering it.
Obviously a controversial card with non-terminal Coffer yield and potentially too strong. You can get the sweet Spring bonus only once but then this is still a powerhouse in Summer. In Fall it is a lousy Ducat and in Winter it does nothing.
One obvious way to nerf it would be to use a 16 turn year.
Going with the original 20 turn year.
(https://i.imgur.com/jKRnpWx.png)
Since you can usually only draw cards you bought on turn 3 and forward, that essentially gives you a normal time window of 1 turn to get the spring bonus of 3 coffers. May be something to be aware of for highrolls
Also its a good thing to mention here, that the classic cantrip trasher for $4.5 thing is calculated for optional trash.I don't follow you here as Ratcatcher is the only optional cantrip trasher. My reasoning is simple: Junk Dealer and Upgrade are the benchmark and show that a pure cantrip trasher has to be cheaper than $4.QuoteUsing Hideout as a baseline for mandatory trash, it's closer to $4.Hideout is really a tricky beast as it does more and less than a cantrip trasher. I think that a cantrip trasher is stronger than Hideout; thrice not really trashing hurts a lot. Of course Hideout is the more interesting card, especially in Kingdoms without other villages (in which you thus somehow welcome the slow trashing).
As Hideout is tricky to evaluate I admit that it is absolutely not clear that a pure cantrip trasher would be OK at $4. I don't think so but could be totally wrong.
Going with the original 20 turn year.
(https://i.imgur.com/jKRnpWx.png)
Since you can usually only draw cards you bought on turn 3 and forward, that essentially gives you a normal time window of 1 turn to get the spring bonus of 3 coffers. May be something to be aware of for highrolls
oh, oops
?
They said their version of Seasons had 20 days/turns in total; 5 for each Season. Spring thus last 5 turns. Substract the first 2 turns, and you've got T3, T4 and T5 for Spring, which is exactly the turns that occur between your first and second shuffle. In normal circumstances, you are obligated to see Pirate Treasure in your hand in Spring, ready to be used for 3 Coffers.
Also its a good thing to mention here, that the classic cantrip trasher for $4.5 thing is calculated for optional trash.I don't follow you here as Ratcatcher is the only optional cantrip trasher. My reasoning is simple: Junk Dealer and Upgrade are the benchmark and show that a pure cantrip trasher has to be cheaper than $4.QuoteUsing Hideout as a baseline for mandatory trash, it's closer to $4.Hideout is really a tricky beast as it does more and less than a cantrip trasher. I think that a cantrip trasher is stronger than Hideout; thrice not really trashing hurts a lot. Of course Hideout is the more interesting card, especially in Kingdoms without other villages (in which you thus somehow welcome the slow trashing).
As Hideout is tricky to evaluate I admit that it is absolutely not clear that a pure cantrip trasher would be OK at $4. I don't think so but could be totally wrong.
I'm having a hard time deciding whether Rats would be stronger or weaker without the self-gaining (I'm thinking stronger, the self-gain makes it so you're just replacing junk with other junk if it's the only trasher). But I don't think a Cantrip Trasher could exist at any price, for the following reason: If Rats minus the self-gain would be weaker, then Cantrip Trasher would be strictly worse than Rats and thus too weak for (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/2/2a/Coin4.png/16px-Coin4.png), but I think it'd be too good for (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/3/32/Coin3.png/16px-Coin3.png). If it would be stronger, it would be too strong for (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/2/2a/Coin4.png/16px-Coin4.png), but strictly worse than Junk Dealer.
Then again, JD lets you trash Coppers without losing anything, which is quite a massive step up from Cantrip Trashing. So maybe it's fine at (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/3/32/Coin3.png/16px-Coin3.png).
Wrangler
Action/Season - $5
+1 Card
+1 Action
Gain a Horse...
In Summer: to the bottom of your deck
In Autumn: onto your deck
In Winter: to your hand
Rules clarification: In Spring, you Gain a Horse (to your discard pile)
Wrangler
Action/Season - $5
+1 Card
+1 Action
Gain a Horse...
In Summer: to the bottom of your deck
In Autumn: onto your deck
In Winter: to your hand
Rules clarification: In Spring, you Gain a Horse (to your discard pile)
Just want to let you know, Spring, Summer, and Autumn, this card is a delayed lab, with varying degrees of delay (with Autumn being equally strong as lab). However in Winter, this card is a double Lab. A double lab is pretty significantly stronger than a lab, DonX tested it at $8 and it was still too strong. Its okay that winter be a really strong effect, stronger than the cost would suggest, but that is pretty overboard. I suggest having Winter discard a card after gaining horse to hand. That way its +3 cards, +1 Action, discard a card. Still strictly stronger than lab, and still easily the strongest of the four seasons, without it being too crazy. Otherwise, I really like the card!
Wrangler
Action/Season - $5
+1 Card
+1 Action
Gain a Horse...
In Summer: to the bottom of your deck
In Autumn: onto your deck
In Winter: to your hand
Rules clarification: In Spring, you Gain a Horse (to your discard pile)
Just want to let you know, Spring, Summer, and Autumn, this card is a delayed lab, with varying degrees of delay (with Autumn being equally strong as lab). However in Winter, this card is a double Lab. A double lab is pretty significantly stronger than a lab, DonX tested it at $8 and it was still too strong. Its okay that winter be a really strong effect, stronger than the cost would suggest, but that is pretty overboard. I suggest having Winter discard a card after gaining horse to hand. That way its +3 cards, +1 Action, discard a card. Still strictly stronger than lab, and still easily the strongest of the four seasons, without it being too crazy. Otherwise, I really like the card!
Cantrip + gain a Horse onto your deck isn't "equally strong as Lab." It would only be equivalent to a Lab if you actually draw the Horse in the same turn. It's hyperbolic to call a card that's only a Lab if combined with another Cantrip "equally strong as Lab". You're right about Winter being a double Lab, though.
Wrangler
Action/Season - $5
+1 Card
+1 Action
Gain a Horse...
In Summer: to the bottom of your deck
In Autumn: onto your deck
In Winter: to your hand
Rules clarification: In Spring, you Gain a Horse (to your discard pile)
Just want to let you know, Spring, Summer, and Autumn, this card is a delayed lab, with varying degrees of delay (with Autumn being equally strong as lab). However in Winter, this card is a double Lab. A double lab is pretty significantly stronger than a lab, DonX tested it at $8 and it was still too strong. Its okay that winter be a really strong effect, stronger than the cost would suggest, but that is pretty overboard. I suggest having Winter discard a card after gaining horse to hand. That way its +3 cards, +1 Action, discard a card. Still strictly stronger than lab, and still easily the strongest of the four seasons, without it being too crazy. Otherwise, I really like the card!
Cantrip + gain a Horse onto your deck isn't "equally strong as Lab." It would only be equivalent to a Lab if you actually draw the Horse in the same turn. It's hyperbolic to call a card that's only a Lab if combined with another Cantrip "equally strong as Lab". You're right about Winter being a double Lab, though.
I didn't say "equivalent to" I said "equally as strong as". Setting up your next turn with a horse is about as good as getting +1 card now. There are definitely situations where you'd rather have a horse top-decked then get +1 card now, for example when you've already drawn your whole deck. With a drawn deck, autumn is *stronger* than a lab. Autumn is not a lab, but there are situations where it stronger than lab, and situations where it is weaker, and imo those occur about equally often. That's all that is meant by equally strong as. Autumn wrangle is to lab as Supplies is to peddler, they're not the same, but they are about as strong.
Setting up your next turn with a Horse is about as good as getting +1 Card now.
Made tracker art for the 12-turn starting in winter version:
(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/797106542360002570/862719347440484392/Seasons.png)
(not a graphic designer so please feel free to critique the design)
I was on the fence before but the more I think about the more confident I am that this version of seasons is likely the best. It guarantees a play in spring for the first shuffle, you'll actually be able to see winter in a large majority of games, and the next spring doesn't start until turn 15, the most common turn games end. It will play identically to the 20 turn seasons until turn 9, where you would be in Autumn here but have 2 more turns of Summer in the former, so I think this version is a great compromise. Also of course, has a nice parallel with IRL by starting in "January".
I like this change: may i use the rule change for my card?
$4 - Night
In Spring: Gain a card costing up to $4.
In Summer: Exile a card from the Supply costing up to $5.
In Autumn: Gain a gold.
In Winter: Look at the top 6 cards of your deck. Discard any number and put the rest back in any order.
-
This is gained to your hand
(instead of to your discard pile)
(https://i.imgur.com/pWYZu5O.png)Quote from: EncounterIn Summer: Exile a card costing up to $5.
(https://i.imgur.com/pWYZu5O.png)Quote from: EncounterIn Summer: Exile a card costing up to $5.
From where?
If NoMoreFun intends to use the ordinary 20 turn season (he has not posted that he wants to deviate from the standard) the Winter nerf is likely not necessary.
You make some good points. Let's go ahead and modify the rules then, for a 12-turn "year". If anyone wants to go with the original 20-turn or a different number like 16, they can do that too, just specify that that's the intention
(https://i.imgur.com/pWYZu5O.png)Quote from: EncounterIn Summer: Exile a card costing up to $5.
From where?
(https://i.imgur.com/Z5aTQLn.png)
This uses The Alchemist's version of Seasons, where we start in winter. To explain the debt cost, I was afraid of weird interactions possibly with cost reducers, but there are no debt cost reducers so it's good. Also, I'm doing a debt-based expansion, so debt cost seemed fun.
Since most games end before turn 15, this is usually at most a +1 card/+4 Action card with an average of about 2 actions across the game. Even in slog games that last, like, 30 turns, sure you'll have that one turn with 10 actions, but that doesn't do much so it doesn't really become oppressive. Now, if it gave cards instead of actions that would be something... but it doesn't. In fact, the main drawback seems to be the fact that even if it gives a lot of actions you need to still rely on drawing it (where with something like Port, drawing is more reliable), so I feel like it's pretty balanced.
Hope it looks interesting, too!
Alright I've tweaked the card a bit:
(https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/797106542360002570/861012312584617984/Tempest.png)
Now each individual effect is reasonably a $4.5, which is nice because it offers a way to bring those 4 cards into the game where right now they can't be standalone. A mix of cards that could have been. Spring is inspired by Wind's gift, Summer by Fire's gift, Autumn was Earth's gift inspired but now its more Field's gift, and now Winter is Snowy Village inspired.
(https://trello-attachments.s3.amazonaws.com/6019de42b869588d9701fbff/60e0ee5316d38e037710e35e/90bf126751bd7d9792a796a968d2a5de/image.png)QuoteCompost • $4 • Action - Season
Trash a card from your hand.
In Spring, you may also trash a Copper from your hand.
In Summer, gain a card costing exactly $1 more than it.
In Autumn, gain a card that shares a type with it; if it costs more, trash this.
In Winter, gain a Victory card that costs less than it.
Power remodeler/trasher. Designed with a 4-turn season (16-turn year) in mind, starting with T1/2 being in winter, T3 starting spring.
the autumn one might be a little too bananas. idk.
Tried to color-match one of segura's old season cards (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=18987.msg826420#msg826420), which iirc used asper's original colors.
My Submission:
(https://i.imgur.com/cFg5apRh.png) Quote from: WerebearWEREBEAR $5
ACTION - RESERVE - SEASON
+4 Cards
In Fall and Winter, put this on your Tavern mat.At the start of your turn, in Spring, Summer, or Fall you may call this for +1 Card in Spring or +2 Cards in Summer.
A take on Werewolf, it does not do anything different at Night, but instead hibernates during Winter.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51291434390_0119b93843_b.jpg)QuoteGranary - $4
Victory - Season
1VP
-
When you gain this, if it is...
Spring, trash 3 cards you have in play.
Summer, gain a non-Victory card costing up to $5.
Fall or Winter, +1VP, +1 Coffers.
A victory card that has a variable on-buy effect. Encourages early purchases of what amounts to an Estate. Late game it is pretty much a $3 cost 2VP card, but with trash for benefit cards it could be a good purchase.
I haven't posted a card in the fan mechanic contests in a while! But that Season idea is very appealing, so I'll take a crack at it. My card is tied with this version of Seasons:
(https://i.postimg.cc/C11XR3tH/Seasons-Dominion.png)
The table show what Season it is for each turn. An average game of Dominion thus ends on the last day of Winter, which is kind of neat. Turn 3, when you have your first deck shuffle and actual cards in it you can use, marks the first day of Spring, to make better use of that Season.
With that being said, here is my card:
(https://i.postimg.cc/knc5tWzB/Four-Leaf-Clover-v2-1.png)
Going with the original 20 turn year.
(https://i.imgur.com/jKRnpWx.png)
Thematically the idea is that the loot diminishes over time with all the Pirates plundering it.
Obviously a controversial card with non-terminal Coffer yield and potentially too strong. You can get the sweet Spring bonus only once but then this is still a powerhouse in Summer. In Fall it is a lousy Ducat and in Winter it does nothing.
One obvious way to nerf it would be to use a 16 turn year.
(https://i.imgur.com/vP9nsQQ.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/MFuc4X6.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/yKacLaT.png)
EDIT: This (also) uses X-tra's 12-turn version of the season mechanic.
Wrangler
Action/Season - $5
+1 Card
+1 Action
Gain a Horse...
In Summer: to the bottom of your deck
In Autumn: onto your deck
In Winter: to your hand
Rules clarification: In Spring, you Gain a Horse (to your discard pile)
(https://trello-attachments.s3.amazonaws.com/5f5a8e8e7ed38b522f25641a/60e02260eaf3687aaf05fefa/05e6247e85785aa0c56414487ceaae6c/Causeway.png)
I'm in favour of X-tra's 3 turn cycle starting with 2 winters, so that's what this card uses. $4 might be too cheap.
Edit: a better-coloured mock-up.
(https://i.imgur.com/Z5aTQLn.png)
This uses The Alchemist's version of Seasons, where we start in winter. To explain the debt cost, I was afraid of weird interactions possibly with cost reducers, but there are no debt cost reducers so it's good. Also, I'm doing a debt-based expansion, so debt cost seemed fun.
Since most games end before turn 15, this is usually at most a +1 card/+4 Action card with an average of about 2 actions across the game. Even in slog games that last, like, 30 turns, sure you'll have that one turn with 10 actions, but that doesn't do much so it doesn't really become oppressive. Now, if it gave cards instead of actions that would be something... but it doesn't. In fact, the main drawback seems to be the fact that even if it gives a lot of actions you need to still rely on drawing it (where with something like Port, drawing is more reliable), so I feel like it's pretty balanced.
Hope it looks interesting, too!
I'm making it cost one less:
(https://i.imgur.com/sM8hqiM.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/pWYZu5O.png)Quote from: Encounter$4 - Night
In Spring: Gain a card costing up to $4.
In Summer: Exile a card from the Supply costing up to $5.
In Autumn: Gain a gold.
In Winter: Look at the top 6 cards of your deck. Discard any number and put the rest back in any order.
-
This is gained to your hand
(instead of to your discard pile)
This submission uses the original 12-turn season (starting with 3 spring turns). The gain to hand helps accommodate it. I wanted it to be a Night card, but also match the cycle through the seasons - starting growth in the Spring, continued growth in the Summer (but it doesn't always grow the way you intended in poor weather, like if you can't gain another of that card to get the one out of Exile), cashing in when you sell crops in the Autumn, and cleaning out the field in Winter.
I'm not overly tied to the name/image of the card, but it's all I've got for now. Maybe you had a strange encounter at night that helped you with your crops! (I had initially called it Crop Circles, but that tied in to the theme of what the card does even less).
Edit: the Summer should be "from the Supply" for the Exile. I'm on mobile at the moment and can't update the picture.
The Season mat has 20 spaces, 5 per Season, to reflect the typical phases of a game of Dominion:
- Spring is the opening
- Summer is buildup
- Fall is closing
- Winter (if it happens) is prolongued endgame.
While three of these can shift, Spring is certainly the one that pushes 5 turns as the standard the most, as this is the lowest number which guarantees that you will see every single one of your opening buys in Spring. Giving Spring only 3 or 4 turns means that you might see some of them randomly miss the Season. This also means that only on-buy and on-gain abilities can care for Spring - at least if you want something that is more than just random happenings.
It's also very relevant for the other Seasons, though. The way we (Co0kieL0rd and I) designed Seasons, one could make an attack that distributes Curses only in Fall, which still works but is too late to hurt players during buildup. We made a Village that you buy during Spring to trash a card, even though nobody needs several Villages early. We made a victory card that rewards you for buying it early, too, and a pile that disappears at the beginning of Fall, a card that you need to open with and play during Spring to max out what it can do, an attack that makes you discard in the middle of the game and topdeck during Spring and Winter, and so on, and so on.
Reducing the turn count ruins this model imo.
NoMoreFun's Wrangler would likely be my pick for winner considering this.
I will say that thematic games are something I very much enjoy, but Dominion never was such a game. It's nice if it works out, but as far as I'm concerned Dominion is designed in a way where one shouldn't aim to let that get in design's way.
I will admit that having the first two turns be Winter does improve the system, but it still means that you can't do opening on-gain abilities that aren't also endgame abilities, and vice versa. I suppose you can mostly emulate the original system other than that, but as I said, I don't see why one would want to lose on-gains solely for *theme*.
And regarding 14 turns as the typical game length, should I presume you mostly play 1v1?
The reason why I asked for your typical player count was because games with more players tend to have scarcer engine parts and you are more likely to get hit by attacks, which would lead me to say that the average is more around 15 to 16 turns. While this may not seem like much of a difference, it shifts the beginning of Winter into the endgame (instead of its end), meaning that when you buy cards that are best later, you also make the estimation of whether the game will live long enough to use them to full effect (i.e. you can make a game cheap in Spring but great in Winter). This also gets lost here.
Either way, I apologize for complaining so much, I just didn't want to leave the impression 5 turn Seasons had been made on a whim. I think this is where the Seasons mechanic works the best and offers the most design space.
That said, thank you for using our mechanic in this contest :)