Dominion Strategy Forum

Dominion => Variants and Fan Cards => Topic started by: mxdata on July 03, 2021, 01:01:37 am

Title: Fan Card Mechanics Week 14: 'Tis the Season
Post by: mxdata on July 03, 2021, 01:01:37 am
For week 14, we'll be exploring Asper's Season cards (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9231.msg284777)

Season cards are cards whose abilities change as the game proceeds.

Quote
When one or more Season cards are in the Supply, use the Season mat. The Season Mat has 20 spaces on it that go in a circle, and shows the 4 Seasons. A token is used to track the current time of year, starting the game on space 1, the first of Spring. After each full round (that is, after the last player in turn order took their turn) the token is moved forward one space. After each 5 turns a new Season begins. Summer starts with turn 6, Fall with turn 11, and Winter with 16. After turn 20 it is Spring again, and so on. Season cards check the current Season and do different things depending on it.

EDIT: For the purposes of this contest, Asper's original rules will be modified.  The "year" will be 12 turns, with each season being 3.  This means that it'll be quite common to return back to spring later in the game. If you want to keep the original 20-turn system, just specify that in your entry

For practical purposes, it's probably advisable to have whichever player goes last be the one to move the token at the end of their turn, to best ensure that it not get forgotten

A Season card does not have to have exactly four different functions, just as long as there's at least two, which depend on the season. Several of Asper's cards have one function in Spring and Summer and another in Fall and Winter, for example, and there have the same in-play effect, but different on-gain effects depending on season. That would qualify as well.  Basically, as long as there's any differences that relate to Seasons, it will qualify.  All cards would include Season as a type.  While all but one of Asper's examples are Actions (with the remaining being a Victory card), they could be any type, so Night or Treasure would also qualify. Traveller and Split piles (unless only the top is a Season card) are excluded, because by the time you get to the later cards in a Traveller line, or the bottom half of a Split pile, you're likely to be pretty late in the game. It should also be an actual supply card, and not a landscape or a non-supply card

Judging will be based on how balanced the cards are, and how thematically appropriate the season connection is and/or how well the different functions work in the early game vs the late game  Baliff, for example, starts out as a trasher that becomes a gainer.  Trashing is particularly useful in the early game, but often becomes less useful later in the game once all the junk has been trashed, while gaining up to $5 is useful late in the game where you may want to go for Duchies, and it could also be seen as thematically appropriate, i.e., spring cleaning and fattening up in the Fall

For the card generator, we'll use the Way color for Seasons

The deadline will be 12:00 AM my time (CDT), Saturday July 10, that's 1:00 AM July 10 forum time, and I will give a 24-hour warning
Title: Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 14: 'Tis the Season
Post by: The Alchemist on July 03, 2021, 03:17:38 am
I personally think 20 turns for a full cycle is a bit antiquated. In 2013, a game lasting 20 turns was pretty conceivable, and slogs were more common. I think the average turn length of games has decreased by almost 2 turns since the days of isotropic if I recall correctly. Therefore, I think it appropriate to use for myself (and anyone else who agrees with my assessment), a 12-turn tracker. This way one would be guaranteed to at least reach winter in most games (assuming we start in spring), since even the fastest strategies on average end around turns 10-11, with normal games of 14-15 turns still just barely into the new spring. It also has the added benefit of thematically fitting with the 12 months of the year, which I think is nice. Here is a sample tracker I found:

(https://thumbs.dreamstime.com/z/season-circle-diagram-chart-icon-sign-month-time-vector-design-season-circle-diagram-chart-icon-sign-month-time-158919215.jpg)

I will replace the above picture with one I am making in photoshop. Either way, I think this concept can be very interesting!

Title: Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 14: 'Tis the Season
Post by: mxdata on July 03, 2021, 04:11:47 am
I personally think 20 turns for a full cycle is a bit antiquated. In 2013, a game lasting 20 turns was pretty conceivable, and slogs were more common. I think the average turn length of games has decreased by almost 2 turns since the days of isotropic if I recall correctly. Therefore, I think it appropriate to use for myself (and anyone else who agrees with my assessment), a 12-turn tracker. This way one would be guaranteed to at least reach winter in most games (assuming we start in spring), since even the fastest strategies on average end around turns 10-11, with normal games of 14-15 turns still just barely into the new spring. It also has the added benefit of thematically fitting with the 12 months of the year, which I think is nice. Here is a sample tracker I found:

(https://thumbs.dreamstime.com/z/season-circle-diagram-chart-icon-sign-month-time-vector-design-season-circle-diagram-chart-icon-sign-month-time-158919215.jpg)

I will replace the above picture with one I am making in photoshop. Either way, I think this concept can be very interesting!

I think the point of 20 turns was to make it so that it would be uncommon to return to Spring, so that the Spring condition usually only happens at the start of the game.  Twelve turns would be far too short, making it so that you almost always get a second Spring at least, and not uncommonly a second Summer.  Making it so that it's common to repeat the season cycle would change how Seasons in general work
Title: Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 14: 'Tis the Season
Post by: The Alchemist on July 03, 2021, 04:30:12 am
If the intention was for Spring to not be seen again, then I don't see why 20 was chosen, since plenty of games go past 20. I thought it was more intuitive that you'd want to see Spring again, because you're obviously not going to play the cards in the first two turns, and that leaves Spring in basically t3-5, meaning any card that mentions Spring with the 20 turn system either needs to be an opener or is just irrelevant, and I don't think that's smart design wise. In fact, I think it would be more interesting with an approach that does see Spring again most games, it makes that season relevant and is kind of nice thematically. If its 20 turns, then Winter effects are just going to be sad in general because most games you'll just never see them. So I don't see why making two seasons virtually irrelevant is worth ensuring seasons don't double up (which honestly doesn't seem that big an issue anyway. I'd rather expect to be able to see at least an entire season most games than just expect to end around Autumn). However all that said, I can see the argument for 16 turns, since that's just a bit longer than the average game at 15.5 turns.


Anyway, here is my first attempt at a card (built for a 12 or 16 turn season).

(https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/797106542360002570/860798308091822110/Tempest.png)

No idea if this is balanced, still testing the waters a bit. Not sure if seasons as a whole should be stronger or weaker than their each individual effect. I went with strongest in winter/autumn and weakest in spring/summer here.
Title: Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 14: 'Tis the Season
Post by: mxdata on July 03, 2021, 04:42:34 am
If the intention was for Spring to not be seen again, then I don't see why 20 was chosen, since plenty of games go past 20. I thought it was more intuitive that you'd want to see Spring again, because you're obviously not going to play the cards in the first two turns, and that leaves Spring in basically t3-5, meaning any card that mentions Spring with the 20 turn system either needs to be an opener or is just irrelevant, and I don't think that's smart design wise. In fact, I think it would be more interesting with an approach that does see Spring again most games, it makes that season relevant and is kind of nice thematically. If its 20 turns, then Winter effects are just going to be sad in general because most games you'll just never see them. So I don't see why making two seasons virtually irrelevant is worth ensuring seasons don't double up (which honestly doesn't seem that big an issue anyway. I'd rather expect to be able to see at least an entire season most games than just expect to end around Autumn). However all that said, I can see the argument for 16 turns, since that's just a bit longer than the average game.


Anyway, here is my first attempt at a card (built for a 12 or 16 turn season).

(https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/797106542360002570/860798308091822110/Tempest.png)

No idea if this is balanced, still testing the waters a bit. Not sure if seasons as a whole should be stronger or weaker than their each individual effect. I went with strongest in winter/autumn and weakest in spring/summer here.

You make some good points. Let's go ahead and modify the rules then, for a 12-turn "year". If anyone wants to go with the original 20-turn or a different number like 16, they can do that too, just specify that that's the intention
Title: Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 14: 'Tis the Season
Post by: The Alchemist on July 03, 2021, 06:10:09 am

It is obviously overpowered.
Fugitive and a cantrip that trashes are $4.5, cantrip workshop is a $5 and Lab plus Market Square is at least a $6.

I'm not sure if that's obvious. Each of those bonuses are are intentionally worth more than $4, because you only get each of those bonuses a limited time. It's a cantrip that trashes yes, but it'll only be that for a 3 turn window, meaning it basically a one-shot, or two-shot if you're lucky. You lose out on a lot of regularity and consistency you'd get from having just a cantrip trasher, so I think that makes the card overall weaker than what each of the components would give you. Its not like a "choose one", where having options makes the card as a whole stronger than any individual option, its the opposite. It's "you don't get to choose one". But hey maybe I'm wrong, maybe the versatility is enough to counter the inconsistency, but for sure I don't think the normal rules of judging card strength by cost of individual effects applies here.
Title: Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 14: 'Tis the Season
Post by: The Alchemist on July 03, 2021, 05:39:18 pm

Sift, trash, gain, draw. That's ALWAYS useful.


It's always useful *when you want it*. If you don't have control over when its each of those things, then it is strictly worse than any of those things individually. You may get Tempest in summer without the cards you want to trash, or really need to gain a card but miss Autumn by a turn, etc. For example, a cantrip trasher is significantly weaker when you only have a 3 turn to trash all your junk cards, and then not again for 9 turns. So my logic is, 4 effects that are all ~$5, are weakened significantly by the season mechanic, and then brought back up to $4 when we combine 4 of them together.

I will submit though that this card in particular is too strong, I think a good Season card will have each individual effect be $4.5 if its a $4, or each effect be a $4 if it's a $3.
Title: Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 14: 'Tis the Season
Post by: The Alchemist on July 03, 2021, 06:42:12 pm
Alright I've tweaked the card a bit:
(https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/797106542360002570/861012312584617984/Tempest.png)

Now each individual effect is reasonably a $4.5, which is nice because it offers a way to bring those 4 cards into the game where right now they can't be standalone. A mix of cards that could have been. Spring is inspired by Wind's gift, Summer by Fire's gift, Autumn was Earth's gift inspired but now its more Field's gift, and now Winter is Snowy Village inspired.
Title: Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 14: 'Tis the Season
Post by: spineflu on July 03, 2021, 11:30:47 pm
(https://trello-attachments.s3.amazonaws.com/6019de42b869588d9701fbff/60e0ee5316d38e037710e35e/90bf126751bd7d9792a796a968d2a5de/image.png)

Quote
Compost • $4 • Action - Season
Trash a card from your hand.

In Spring, you may also trash a Copper from your hand.
In Summer, gain a card costing exactly $1 more than it.
In Autumn, gain a card that shares a type with it; if it costs more, trash this.
In Winter, gain a Victory card that costs less than it.

Power remodeler/trasher. Designed with a 4-turn season (16-turn year) in mind, starting with T1/2 being in winter, T3 starting spring.
the autumn one might be a little too bananas. idk.
Tried to color-match one of segura's old season cards (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=18987.msg826420#msg826420), which iirc used asper's original colors.
Title: Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 14: 'Tis the Season
Post by: herw on July 04, 2021, 01:14:28 am
[...]Designed with a 4-turn season (16-turn year) in mind, starting with T1/2 being in winter, T3 starting spring.
the autumn one might be a little too bananas. idk.
Tried to color-match one of segura's old season cards (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=18987.msg826420#msg826420), which iirc used asper's original colors.
I like the idea of starting two turns before spring. Since there are no action cards in hand in the first two turns, you automatically start with spring in the third turn.
Still, I think the original rule of considering five turns for each season is better, since there could be cards that advance or reset the season counter. Then three turns are too few.
Aspers Karten: Jahreszeiten (https://forum.dominion-welt.de/viewtopic.php?p=11587#p11587)
Title: Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 14: 'Tis the Season
Post by: emtzalex on July 04, 2021, 01:47:48 am
My Submission:
(https://i.imgur.com/cFg5apRh.png)

Quote from: Werebear
WEREBEAR  $5
ACTION - RESERVE - SEASON
+4 Cards
In Fall and Winter, put this on your Tavern mat.

At the start of your turn, in Spring, Summer, or Fall you may call this for +1 Card in Spring or +2 Cards in Summer.
                                                                                               

A take on Werewolf, it does not do anything different at Night, but instead hibernates during Winter.
Title: Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 14: 'Tis the Season
Post by: The Alchemist on July 04, 2021, 09:29:00 pm
(https://trello-attachments.s3.amazonaws.com/6019de42b869588d9701fbff/60e0ee5316d38e037710e35e/90bf126751bd7d9792a796a968d2a5de/image.png)

Tried to color-match one of segura's old season cards (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=18987.msg826420#msg826420), which iirc used asper's original colors.

I don't think Seasons need/should have a new border color. Those are all reserved for cards that play outside of the normal times. Reactions play on your opponents turns, Reserve calls happen after a trigger, Night is a brand new phase, Duration on future turns, etc.
Seasons are not a new phase or timing, just a new type, so the same colors should be fine. Looters, castles, knights, etc. all add rules to the game but don't affect timing, and so have a new type but not new color, thus seasons likewise should do the same.
Title: Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 14: 'Tis the Season
Post by: Xen3k on July 04, 2021, 09:52:07 pm
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51291434390_0119b93843_b.jpg)

Quote
Granary - $4
Victory - Season
1VP
-
When you gain this, if it is...

Spring, trash 3 cards you have in play.
Summer, gain a non-Victory card costing up to $5.
Fall or Winter, +1VP, +1 Coffers.

A victory card that has a variable on-buy effect. Encourages early purchases of what amounts to an Estate. Late game it is pretty much a $3 cost 2VP card, but with trash for benefit cards it could be a good purchase.
Title: Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 14: 'Tis the Season
Post by: NoMoreFun on July 04, 2021, 10:01:48 pm
I like 20 turns. It means if you open with a card for its Spring effect, you will get to play it in Spring. Then the turns roughly line up with opening, building, greening and "endgame".

It does make Winter rare, but that is an interesting design space - you could make Winter effects extremely strong (e.g. "Gain a Provonce") with the risk you'll never get to play them. I think it adds to the general strategy of endgame control.

16 turns could also work, but Spring effects should be on gain or have some other way of preventing missing out on the Spring effect due to shuffle luck alone.
Title: Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 14: 'Tis the Season
Post by: X-tra on July 05, 2021, 12:24:45 am
I haven't posted a card in the fan mechanic contests in a while! But that Season idea is very appealing, so I'll take a crack at it. My card is tied with this version of Seasons:

(https://i.postimg.cc/C11XR3tH/Seasons-Dominion.png)

The table show what Season it is for each turn. An average game of Dominion thus ends on the last day of Winter, which is kind of neat. Turn 3, when you have your first deck shuffle and actual cards in it you can use, marks the first day of Spring, to make better use of that Season.

With that being said, here is my card:

(https://i.postimg.cc/knc5tWzB/Four-Leaf-Clover-v2-1.png)
Title: Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 14: 'Tis the Season
Post by: The Alchemist on July 05, 2021, 12:30:10 am
Btw, I too am going with a version of the 12-turn season that X-tra proposed, one starting in middle of Winter instead of start of Spring, for the same reasons he laid out. I think it solves the different seasons on t3/t4 thing much more naturally than a 16 or 20 turn season, and its nice thematically to start in "January". Here is my art for the tracker:

(https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/797106542360002570/862719347440484392/Seasons.png)
Title: Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 14: 'Tis the Season
Post by: The Alchemist on July 05, 2021, 05:21:05 am

Sift, trash, gain, draw. That's ALWAYS useful.


It's always useful *when you want it*.
When do you not want to sift, gain or draw? I literally always want to!
You can be too thin but that is unlikely to be the case in Summer.
So the first version of this card is always useful and notions like consistency, lack of control or whatever are of minor relevance.

I think you misunderstood. I never said there would be times where you wouldn't want those effects, I said there would be many times you *would* want a particular effect from tempest but can't get it cause its not the right season. Its worse than "x" because its not "x" every time you want "x". Put a different way, how much would a card that said "+1 Card, +1 Action, If its turn 6, 7, or 8, trash a card from your hand" be worth? If you said $4.5, you're dead wrong. That's barely worth more than a straight cantrip, $2.5 or $3 at most. Likewise for each of the other effects. A card that was "+1 Card, +3 Actions, +1 Buy, but only if its turns 12, 13, or 14" would similarly be so much worse than Worker's village. Putting all 4 barely-more-than-cantrip effects together just gets you back to $4.
Title: Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 14: 'Tis the Season
Post by: The Alchemist on July 06, 2021, 02:17:38 am
I totally disagree. Cantrip trashers like Junk Dealer and Upgrade are very much used in the midgame and are certainly worth far more than cantrips. You are right that you prefer them immediately in the opening but that doesnít make midgame trashing worthless. Same with a Double Lab, that is always powerful.

The notion that you gotta somehow average these powerful effects as you donít get them during the entire part of the game and that this makes the card basically a Harbinger, a cantrip with a minor bonus, is simply wrong as you get a strong effect in all Seasons.

For how much would you buy a trasher that said "This only trashes in a 3-turn window this game"? That is clearly no where near as strong as a $4.5. And after playtesting a bit and talking to other people about the season mechanic, I am absolutely certain that a season card's effects each individually need to be stronger than the price as a whole. Four $4 effects on a season card is absolutely not worth more than $4. You can't use old logic in a new situation and automatically expect it to apply.
Title: Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 14: 'Tis the Season
Post by: mathdude on July 06, 2021, 07:59:43 am

Sift, trash, gain, draw. That's ALWAYS useful.


It's always useful *when you want it*.
When do you not want to sift, gain or draw? I literally always want to!
You can be too thin but that is unlikely to be the case in Summer.
So the first version of this card is always useful and notions like consistency, lack of control or whatever are of minor relevance.

I think you misunderstood. I never said there would be times where you wouldn't want those effects, I said there would be many times you *would* want a particular effect from tempest but can't get it cause its not the right season. Its worse than "x" because its not "x" every time you want "x". Put a different way, how much would a card that said "+1 Card, +1 Action, If its turn 6, 7, or 8, trash a card from your hand" be worth? If you said $4.5, you're dead wrong. That's barely worth more than a straight cantrip, $2.5 or $3 at most. Likewise for each of the other effects. A card that was "+1 Card, +3 Actions, +1 Buy, but only if its turns 12, 13, or 14" would similarly be so much worse than Worker's village. Putting all 4 barely-more-than-cantrip effects together just gets you back to $4.

It totally depends what the "little bit extras" thinks are. If they are things you may not want when you can use them, then the full card costs less than any individual card would. If the extra effects are designed to land in the game exactly when it's best to use them, then it should cost more than the individual cards would.
Title: Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 14: 'Tis the Season
Post by: The Alchemist on July 06, 2021, 09:52:46 am
Now if the effects are not or not always useful in that very season the card is naturally weaker.
Your second version looks decent, you get strong effects in Spring and Summer but not for long. Especially the Winter effect is weak (either you want villages and have some in your deck already, so the marginal benefit of extra villages is small, or you donít want villages anyway and the card is basically just a Market Square) and should compensate for the strength of the card early on.

I already made this very point in a previous post: Workers Village is an engine piece so having this on a Season card is weak due to matching issues. Not so with single card engine pieces like Fugitive or cantrip trasher that do not have to be matched with anything (thatís why non-terminal draw is so powerful).

Ah see, that's exactly my point! Normally a worker's village effect with an extra action would easily be $4.5 or $5, but because its on a card that doesn't give that effect reliably, you can't expect it to be nearly as strong since it has marginal benefit in an engine that otherwise had to be built without it. Likewise you can't rely on the peddler payload, and you can't rely on continued thinning. It would be much preferable to get a single Fugitive, trasher, peddler, and worker's village than it would be to get 4 Tempests, and for that reason alone, Tempest should be cheaper than any one of those 4.

Also its a good thing to mention here, that the classic cantrip trasher for $4.5 thing is calculated for optional trash. Using Hideout as a baseline for mandatory trash, it's closer to $4. So really the only effect that is potentially too strong on this card is the Fugitive one, but hey that's printed on a $4, so I think overall the card is not as overpowered as you think (If you still think it is, I admit the version with the cantrip workshop *was* overpowered, just not for the reason you stated).
Title: Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 14: 'Tis the Season
Post by: fika monster on July 06, 2021, 12:33:31 pm
Going with the original 20 turn year.

(https://i.imgur.com/jKRnpWx.png)

Thematically the idea is that the loot diminishes over time with all the Pirates plundering it.
Obviously a controversial card with non-terminal Coffer yield and potentially too strong. You can get the sweet Spring bonus only once but then this is still a powerhouse in Summer. In Fall it is a lousy Ducat and in Winter it does nothing.
One obvious way to nerf it would be to use a 16 turn year.

Since you can usually only draw cards you bought on turn 3 and forward, that essentially gives you a normal time window of 1 turn to get the spring bonus of 3 coffers. May be something to be aware of for highrolls
Title: Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 14: 'Tis the Season
Post by: fika monster on July 06, 2021, 12:58:32 pm
Slightly breaking the rules: in my version, the first 12 Turns is "the first year". then, turn 13-24 is year two, and so on...

With that said....
[img width250]https://i.imgur.com/e8Jf7DQ.png[/img]
Husbandry! For most of the game its a simple +2 Cards. Quite bad for 3$! But, when 12 turns has passed....

Bam! If you played it enough times, you can gain provinces with it, while still drawing 2 cards!

EDIT: The card was horribly broken: im changing it to this version.

(https://i.imgur.com/vP9nsQQ.png)
Title: Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 14: 'Tis the Season
Post by: grrgrrgrr on July 06, 2021, 02:07:48 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/MFuc4X6.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/yKacLaT.png)

EDIT: This (also) uses X-tra's 12-turn version of the season mechanic.
Title: Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 14: 'Tis the Season
Post by: X-tra on July 06, 2021, 03:37:09 pm
Going with the original 20 turn year.

(https://i.imgur.com/jKRnpWx.png)

Since you can usually only draw cards you bought on turn 3 and forward, that essentially gives you a normal time window of 1 turn to get the spring bonus of 3 coffers. May be something to be aware of for highrolls

?

They said their version of Seasons had 20 days/turns in total; 5 for each Season. Spring thus last 5 turns. Substract the first 2 turns, and you've got T3, T4 and T5 for Spring, which is exactly the turns that occur between your first and second shuffle. In normal circumstances, you are obligated to see Pirate Treasure in your hand in Spring, ready to be used for 3 Coffers.
Title: Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 14: 'Tis the Season
Post by: Gubump on July 06, 2021, 04:13:45 pm
Also its a good thing to mention here, that the classic cantrip trasher for $4.5 thing is calculated for optional trash.
I don't follow you here as Ratcatcher is the only optional cantrip trasher. My reasoning is simple: Junk Dealer and Upgrade are the benchmark and show that a pure cantrip trasher has to be cheaper than $4.

Quote
Using Hideout as a baseline for mandatory trash, it's closer to $4.
Hideout is really a tricky beast as it does more and less than a cantrip trasher. I think that a cantrip trasher is stronger than Hideout; thrice not really trashing hurts a lot. Of course Hideout is the more interesting card, especially in Kingdoms without other villages (in which you thus somehow welcome the slow trashing).
As Hideout is tricky to evaluate I admit that it is absolutely not clear that a pure cantrip trasher would be OK at $4. I don't think so but could be totally wrong.

I'm having a hard time deciding whether Rats would be stronger or weaker without the self-gaining (I'm thinking stronger, the self-gain makes it so you're just replacing junk with other junk if it's the only trasher). But I don't think a Cantrip Trasher could exist at any price, for the following reason: If Rats minus the self-gain would be weaker, then Cantrip Trasher would be strictly worse than Rats and thus too weak for (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/2/2a/Coin4.png/16px-Coin4.png), but I think it'd be too good for (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/3/32/Coin3.png/16px-Coin3.png). If it would be stronger, it would be too strong for (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/2/2a/Coin4.png/16px-Coin4.png), but strictly worse than Junk Dealer.

Then again, JD lets you trash Coppers without losing anything, which is quite a massive step up from Cantrip Trashing. So maybe it's fine at (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/3/32/Coin3.png/16px-Coin3.png).
Title: Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 14: 'Tis the Season
Post by: NoMoreFun on July 07, 2021, 03:01:00 am
Wrangler
Action/Season - $5
+1 Card
+1 Action
Gain a Horse...
In Summer: to the bottom of your deck
In Autumn: onto your deck
In Winter: to your hand

Rules clarification: In Spring, you Gain a Horse (to your discard pile)
Title: Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 14: 'Tis the Season
Post by: fika monster on July 07, 2021, 05:40:17 am
Going with the original 20 turn year.

(https://i.imgur.com/jKRnpWx.png)

Since you can usually only draw cards you bought on turn 3 and forward, that essentially gives you a normal time window of 1 turn to get the spring bonus of 3 coffers. May be something to be aware of for highrolls

oh, oops

?

They said their version of Seasons had 20 days/turns in total; 5 for each Season. Spring thus last 5 turns. Substract the first 2 turns, and you've got T3, T4 and T5 for Spring, which is exactly the turns that occur between your first and second shuffle. In normal circumstances, you are obligated to see Pirate Treasure in your hand in Spring, ready to be used for 3 Coffers.
Title: Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 14: 'Tis the Season
Post by: emtzalex on July 07, 2021, 12:46:40 pm
Also its a good thing to mention here, that the classic cantrip trasher for $4.5 thing is calculated for optional trash.
I don't follow you here as Ratcatcher is the only optional cantrip trasher. My reasoning is simple: Junk Dealer and Upgrade are the benchmark and show that a pure cantrip trasher has to be cheaper than $4.

Quote
Using Hideout as a baseline for mandatory trash, it's closer to $4.
Hideout is really a tricky beast as it does more and less than a cantrip trasher. I think that a cantrip trasher is stronger than Hideout; thrice not really trashing hurts a lot. Of course Hideout is the more interesting card, especially in Kingdoms without other villages (in which you thus somehow welcome the slow trashing).
As Hideout is tricky to evaluate I admit that it is absolutely not clear that a pure cantrip trasher would be OK at $4. I don't think so but could be totally wrong.

I'm having a hard time deciding whether Rats would be stronger or weaker without the self-gaining (I'm thinking stronger, the self-gain makes it so you're just replacing junk with other junk if it's the only trasher). But I don't think a Cantrip Trasher could exist at any price, for the following reason: If Rats minus the self-gain would be weaker, then Cantrip Trasher would be strictly worse than Rats and thus too weak for (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/2/2a/Coin4.png/16px-Coin4.png), but I think it'd be too good for (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/3/32/Coin3.png/16px-Coin3.png). If it would be stronger, it would be too strong for (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/2/2a/Coin4.png/16px-Coin4.png), but strictly worse than Junk Dealer.

Then again, JD lets you trash Coppers without losing anything, which is quite a massive step up from Cantrip Trashing. So maybe it's fine at (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/3/32/Coin3.png/16px-Coin3.png).

I think Rats is pretty clear neither strictly better nor strictly worse than a plain cantrip trasher would be. Especially in a game with strong junking, a single copy is not all that effective in thinning your deck. The self-gaining that Rats does vastly accelerates the trashing, but, as you point out, if you don't have anything left to trash, can leave you with what is effectively just as many junk cards as you got rid of (and to the extent you were trashing Coppers, much weaker junk). Absent something to do with those cards, this is generally not worth it, and you probably should not buy rats.

However, there are plenty of circumstances when buying Rats does make a lot of sense. One is with certain Ways. I played a game with Way of the Mouse which set aside Chariot Race. I opened with Rats, which were able to quickly trash most of my junk (roughly doubling the number of them every shuffle), and when there was no junk left to trash I would play them using the Way. Since my deck was filled with Rats, on turns when my opponent's top card was an Estate, Copper, or Silver, I was able to play it multiple times as a Peddler+VP. While that's an extreme example of enhancing Rats, several other Ways would also provide good options: Pig, Horse, Goat, Mule, Butterfly, Turtle, and Mole all have decent potential to make Rats fairly useable. The other obvious helper is other trashing, especially trashing for benefit. Basically all of the trash-for-benefit cards (especially Apprentice, Bishop, Research, Scrap, Upgrade, and Ritual, but also Sacrifice, Forge, Salvager, Zombie Apprentice, Goatherd, and Raze) are solid complements.

Also, a cantrip trasher is, in a way, not really a cantrip, because the end result is not the same number of cards in your hand; you end up with one fewer. JD turns the worst card in your hand into a Copper and removes it from your deck. Upgrade turns it into a one-shot gainer that often fails to gain anything (when what you trashed costs $0 and nothing in the Supply costs $1). Rats does the same, but one that always gains Rats. In addition to not thinning your deck quickly, a cantrip trasher would still slow you down on at least some of the turns it was used. Put another way, in my experience, the biggest drawback of Cathedral is not that it might make you trash a good card late in the game; it's that you play the rest of the game with a 4 card hand. The cantrip trasher has essentially the same effect.
Title: Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 14: 'Tis the Season
Post by: exfret on July 07, 2021, 03:08:21 pm
I think the "cycling" mechanic of seasons is really difficult to accomodate. I'd much rather have things like Husbandry, like "for each season/year passed". Is this okay?
Title: Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 14: 'Tis the Season
Post by: The Alchemist on July 07, 2021, 06:11:28 pm
Wrangler
Action/Season - $5
+1 Card
+1 Action
Gain a Horse...
In Summer: to the bottom of your deck
In Autumn: onto your deck
In Winter: to your hand

Rules clarification: In Spring, you Gain a Horse (to your discard pile)

Just want to let you know, Spring, Summer, and Autumn, this card is a delayed lab, with varying degrees of delay (with Autumn being equally strong as lab). However in Winter, this card is a double Lab. A double lab is pretty significantly stronger than a lab, DonX tested it at $8 and it was still too strong. Its okay that winter be a really strong effect, stronger than the cost would suggest, but that is pretty overboard. I suggest having Winter discard a card after gaining horse to hand. That way its +3 cards, +1 Action, discard a card. Still strictly stronger than lab, and still easily the strongest of the four seasons, without it being too crazy. Otherwise, I really like the card!
Title: Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 14: 'Tis the Season
Post by: Gubump on July 07, 2021, 06:16:41 pm
Wrangler
Action/Season - $5
+1 Card
+1 Action
Gain a Horse...
In Summer: to the bottom of your deck
In Autumn: onto your deck
In Winter: to your hand

Rules clarification: In Spring, you Gain a Horse (to your discard pile)

Just want to let you know, Spring, Summer, and Autumn, this card is a delayed lab, with varying degrees of delay (with Autumn being equally strong as lab). However in Winter, this card is a double Lab. A double lab is pretty significantly stronger than a lab, DonX tested it at $8 and it was still too strong. Its okay that winter be a really strong effect, stronger than the cost would suggest, but that is pretty overboard. I suggest having Winter discard a card after gaining horse to hand. That way its +3 cards, +1 Action, discard a card. Still strictly stronger than lab, and still easily the strongest of the four seasons, without it being too crazy. Otherwise, I really like the card!

Cantrip + gain a Horse onto your deck isn't "equally strong as Lab."  It would only be equivalent to a Lab if you actually draw the Horse in the same turn. It's hyperbolic to call a card that's only a Lab if combined with another Cantrip "equally strong as Lab". You're right about Winter being a double Lab, though.
Title: Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 14: 'Tis the Season
Post by: The Alchemist on July 07, 2021, 09:44:16 pm
Wrangler
Action/Season - $5
+1 Card
+1 Action
Gain a Horse...
In Summer: to the bottom of your deck
In Autumn: onto your deck
In Winter: to your hand

Rules clarification: In Spring, you Gain a Horse (to your discard pile)

Just want to let you know, Spring, Summer, and Autumn, this card is a delayed lab, with varying degrees of delay (with Autumn being equally strong as lab). However in Winter, this card is a double Lab. A double lab is pretty significantly stronger than a lab, DonX tested it at $8 and it was still too strong. Its okay that winter be a really strong effect, stronger than the cost would suggest, but that is pretty overboard. I suggest having Winter discard a card after gaining horse to hand. That way its +3 cards, +1 Action, discard a card. Still strictly stronger than lab, and still easily the strongest of the four seasons, without it being too crazy. Otherwise, I really like the card!

Cantrip + gain a Horse onto your deck isn't "equally strong as Lab."  It would only be equivalent to a Lab if you actually draw the Horse in the same turn. It's hyperbolic to call a card that's only a Lab if combined with another Cantrip "equally strong as Lab". You're right about Winter being a double Lab, though.

I didn't say "equivalent to" I said "equally as strong as". Setting up your next turn with a horse is about as good as getting +1 card now. There are definitely situations where you'd rather have a horse top-decked then get +1 card now, for example when you've already drawn your whole deck. With a drawn deck, autumn is *stronger* than a lab. Autumn is not a lab, but there are situations where it stronger than lab, and situations where it is weaker, and imo those occur about equally often. That's all that is meant by equally strong as. Autumn wrangle is to lab as Supplies is to peddler, they're not the same, but they are about as strong.
Title: Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 14: 'Tis the Season
Post by: Gubump on July 07, 2021, 10:56:55 pm
Wrangler
Action/Season - $5
+1 Card
+1 Action
Gain a Horse...
In Summer: to the bottom of your deck
In Autumn: onto your deck
In Winter: to your hand

Rules clarification: In Spring, you Gain a Horse (to your discard pile)

Just want to let you know, Spring, Summer, and Autumn, this card is a delayed lab, with varying degrees of delay (with Autumn being equally strong as lab). However in Winter, this card is a double Lab. A double lab is pretty significantly stronger than a lab, DonX tested it at $8 and it was still too strong. Its okay that winter be a really strong effect, stronger than the cost would suggest, but that is pretty overboard. I suggest having Winter discard a card after gaining horse to hand. That way its +3 cards, +1 Action, discard a card. Still strictly stronger than lab, and still easily the strongest of the four seasons, without it being too crazy. Otherwise, I really like the card!

Cantrip + gain a Horse onto your deck isn't "equally strong as Lab."  It would only be equivalent to a Lab if you actually draw the Horse in the same turn. It's hyperbolic to call a card that's only a Lab if combined with another Cantrip "equally strong as Lab". You're right about Winter being a double Lab, though.

I didn't say "equivalent to" I said "equally as strong as". Setting up your next turn with a horse is about as good as getting +1 card now. There are definitely situations where you'd rather have a horse top-decked then get +1 card now, for example when you've already drawn your whole deck. With a drawn deck, autumn is *stronger* than a lab. Autumn is not a lab, but there are situations where it stronger than lab, and situations where it is weaker, and imo those occur about equally often. That's all that is meant by equally strong as. Autumn wrangle is to lab as Supplies is to peddler, they're not the same, but they are about as strong.

Sure, they're about as strong, I agree with that. But "about as strong as" is not the same thing as "equally as strong as." It's slightly weaker imo, and it would certainly look odd for a Cantrip that gains a one-shot Lab onto your deck to cost the same as a Lab (although it would also be very clearly too strong for (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/2/2a/Coin4.png/16px-Coin4.png)).

Setting up your next turn with a Horse is about as good as getting +1 Card now.

If you play a Cantrip that gains a Horse onto your deck and you do not draw that Horse until next turn, that's +1 handsize to next turn and net 0 handsize this turn. That's equivalent to Caravan, which is a (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/2/2a/Coin4.png/16px-Coin4.png), and not even one of the crazy (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/2/2a/Coin4.png/16px-Coin4.png)s.

I do absolutely agree with you that Wrangler is currently too strong. The Summer and Spring effects would be overpriced at (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/7/7d/Coin5.png/16px-Coin5.png), probably even at (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/2/2a/Coin4.png/16px-Coin4.png), but Autumn would be an upper-mid (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/7/7d/Coin5.png/16px-Coin5.png) and Winter is insane.

This last part's just my opinion, not really a balance concern, but I think Seasons cards should sidegrade themselves between Seasons, rather than being strictly better during certain Seasons than others.
Title: Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 14: 'Tis the Season
Post by: Aquila on July 08, 2021, 02:55:25 am
(https://trello-attachments.s3.amazonaws.com/5f5a8e8e7ed38b522f25641a/60e02260eaf3687aaf05fefa/05e6247e85785aa0c56414487ceaae6c/Causeway.png)
I'm in favour of X-tra's 3 turn cycle starting with 2 winters, so that's what this card uses. $4 might be too cheap.

Edit: a better-coloured mock-up.
Title: Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 14: 'Tis the Season
Post by: The Alchemist on July 08, 2021, 11:50:22 am
Made tracker art for the 12-turn starting in winter version:
(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/797106542360002570/862719347440484392/Seasons.png)

(not a graphic designer so please feel free to critique the design)


I was on the fence before but the more I think about the more confident I am that this version of seasons is likely the best. It guarantees a play in spring for the first shuffle, you'll actually be able to see winter in a large majority of games, and the next spring doesn't start until turn 15, the most common turn games end. It will play identically to the 20 turn seasons until turn 9, where you would be in Autumn here but have 2 more turns of Summer in the former, so I think this version is a great compromise. Also of course, has a nice parallel with IRL by starting in "January".
Title: Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 14: 'Tis the Season
Post by: fika monster on July 08, 2021, 04:21:26 pm
Made tracker art for the 12-turn starting in winter version:
(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/797106542360002570/862719347440484392/Seasons.png)

(not a graphic designer so please feel free to critique the design)


I was on the fence before but the more I think about the more confident I am that this version of seasons is likely the best. It guarantees a play in spring for the first shuffle, you'll actually be able to see winter in a large majority of games, and the next spring doesn't start until turn 15, the most common turn games end. It will play identically to the 20 turn seasons until turn 9, where you would be in Autumn here but have 2 more turns of Summer in the former, so I think this version is a great compromise. Also of course, has a nice parallel with IRL by starting in "January".

I like this change: may i use the rule change for my card?
Title: Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 14: 'Tis the Season
Post by: The Alchemist on July 08, 2021, 09:01:55 pm
I like this change: may i use the rule change for my card?

Of course, go ahead! It's X-tra's idea after all, and I just remade the original graphic I posted so it would look more dominion-y (matching font for numbers and text too).
Title: Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 14: 'Tis the Season
Post by: exfret on July 09, 2021, 01:50:23 am
(https://i.imgur.com/Z5aTQLn.png)

This uses The Alchemist's version of Seasons, where we start in winter. To explain the debt cost, I was afraid of weird interactions possibly with cost reducers, but there are no debt cost reducers so it's good. Also, I'm doing a debt-based expansion, so debt cost seemed fun.

Since most games end before turn 15, this is usually at most a +1 card/+4 Action card with an average of about 2 actions across the game. Even in slog games that last, like, 30 turns, sure you'll have that one turn with 10 actions, but that doesn't do much so it doesn't really become oppressive. Now, if it gave cards instead of actions that would be something... but it doesn't. In fact, the main drawback seems to be the fact that even if it gives a lot of actions you need to still rely on drawing it (where with something like Port, drawing is more reliable), so I feel like it's pretty balanced.

Hope it looks interesting, too!
Title: Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 14: 'Tis the Season
Post by: mxdata on July 09, 2021, 02:22:57 am
24 Hour Notice
Title: Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 14: 'Tis the Season
Post by: The Alchemist on July 09, 2021, 04:03:38 am
I don't usually do this, but I like NoMoreFun's card enough that I want to make the card art for him, and its said when a submission has no art. I made one with his original design, and one with my wording and balance suggestion in case they want to use it.

Original:
(https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/797106542360002570/862965942144729109/Wrangler_1.png)

My suggestion:
(https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/797106542360002570/862965941758984212/Wrangler.png)
This version just makes what you put in the rules clarification explicit. I know its not strictly needed, but Don X felt he had to put (instead of your discard pile) on cards that were gained onto your deck, so I don't think its something that's obvious enough to be left out of the card. (Similarly to how hireling doesn't strictly need this stays in play but does anyway).

Obviously I'm partial to the latter, but up to NoMoreFun which one (if either) they'd like to use for their submission.
Title: Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 14: 'Tis the Season
Post by: mathdude on July 09, 2021, 11:03:05 am
(https://i.imgur.com/pWYZu5O.png)

Quote from: Encounter
$4 - Night
In Spring: Gain a card costing up to $4.
In Summer: Exile a card from the Supply costing up to $5.
In Autumn: Gain a gold.
In Winter: Look at the top 6 cards of your deck. Discard any number and put the rest back in any order.
-
This is gained to your hand
(instead of to your discard pile)

This submission uses the original 12-turn season (starting with 3 spring turns).  The gain to hand helps accommodate it.  I wanted it to be a Night card, but also match the cycle through the seasons - starting growth in the Spring, continued growth in the Summer (but it doesn't always grow the way you intended in poor weather, like if you can't gain another of that card to get the one out of Exile), cashing in when you sell crops in the Autumn, and cleaning out the field in Winter.

I'm not overly tied to the name/image of the card, but it's all I've got for now.  Maybe you had a strange encounter at night that helped you with your crops!  (I had initially called it Crop Circles, but  that tied in to the theme of what the card does even less).

Edit: the Summer should be "from the Supply" for the Exile. I'm on mobile at the moment and can't update the picture.
Title: Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 14: 'Tis the Season
Post by: emtzalex on July 09, 2021, 11:21:56 am
(https://i.imgur.com/pWYZu5O.png)

Quote from: Encounter
In Summer: Exile a card costing up to $5.

From where?
Title: Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 14: 'Tis the Season
Post by: The Alchemist on July 09, 2021, 01:00:09 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/pWYZu5O.png)

Quote from: Encounter
In Summer: Exile a card costing up to $5.

From where?

Anywhere. Abduct your opponent's duchies right out of their hands and swipe them to your exile.
Title: Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 14: 'Tis the Season
Post by: The Alchemist on July 09, 2021, 01:06:38 pm
If NoMoreFun intends to use the ordinary 20 turn season (he has not posted that he wants to deviate from the standard) the Winter nerf is likely not necessary.

You make some good points. Let's go ahead and modify the rules then, for a 12-turn "year". If anyone wants to go with the original 20-turn or a different number like 16, they can do that too, just specify that that's the intention

Assumed by this we were making 12 turns the default, and opt-in to 20 turns. I personally don't like "Winter is past when the game would usually end by anyway, so its fine if the bonuses are overpowered" solution. I agree winter should be the strongest bonus, but a double lab at $5 is a bit excessive.
Title: Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 14: 'Tis the Season
Post by: mathdude on July 09, 2021, 05:05:54 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/pWYZu5O.png)

Quote from: Encounter
In Summer: Exile a card costing up to $5.

From where?

From Supply. I've updated, except not the card image.
Title: Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 14: 'Tis the Season
Post by: exfret on July 09, 2021, 11:23:59 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/Z5aTQLn.png)

This uses The Alchemist's version of Seasons, where we start in winter. To explain the debt cost, I was afraid of weird interactions possibly with cost reducers, but there are no debt cost reducers so it's good. Also, I'm doing a debt-based expansion, so debt cost seemed fun.

Since most games end before turn 15, this is usually at most a +1 card/+4 Action card with an average of about 2 actions across the game. Even in slog games that last, like, 30 turns, sure you'll have that one turn with 10 actions, but that doesn't do much so it doesn't really become oppressive. Now, if it gave cards instead of actions that would be something... but it doesn't. In fact, the main drawback seems to be the fact that even if it gives a lot of actions you need to still rely on drawing it (where with something like Port, drawing is more reliable), so I feel like it's pretty balanced.

Hope it looks interesting, too!

I'm making it cost one less:

(https://i.imgur.com/sM8hqiM.png)
Title: Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 14: 'Tis the Season
Post by: mxdata on July 10, 2021, 01:56:07 am
Submissions Closed

I will be providing judgment shortly later today
Title: Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 14: 'Tis the Season
Post by: mxdata on July 10, 2021, 04:24:26 pm
Twelve entries, an appropriate number for the theme!
Alright I've tweaked the card a bit:
(https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/797106542360002570/861012312584617984/Tempest.png)

Now each individual effect is reasonably a $4.5, which is nice because it offers a way to bring those 4 cards into the game where right now they can't be standalone. A mix of cards that could have been. Spring is inspired by Wind's gift, Summer by Fire's gift, Autumn was Earth's gift inspired but now its more Field's gift, and now Winter is Snowy Village inspired.

A nice strong card, and I think fairly-priced. All four of its effects are definitely good cards. My only concern is with the Winter effect. Since you can only get the +3 Actions in about 1/4 of the game, it would be hard to take full advantage of that. If there are other villages in the game, then a lot of the time you'll end up with enough extra Actions anyways, so that those +Actions would be redundant - while if there aren't any other villages, then you have a case where extra Actions are only available in Winter, so you wouldn't want a whole lot of non-terminal Actions anyways.  Still, it's a good card, and the seasonal theme works nicely

Finalist

(https://trello-attachments.s3.amazonaws.com/6019de42b869588d9701fbff/60e0ee5316d38e037710e35e/90bf126751bd7d9792a796a968d2a5de/image.png)

Quote
Compost ē $4 ē Action - Season
Trash a card from your hand.

In Spring, you may also trash a Copper from your hand.
In Summer, gain a card costing exactly $1 more than it.
In Autumn, gain a card that shares a type with it; if it costs more, trash this.
In Winter, gain a Victory card that costs less than it.

Power remodeler/trasher. Designed with a 4-turn season (16-turn year) in mind, starting with T1/2 being in winter, T3 starting spring.
the autumn one might be a little too bananas. idk.
Tried to color-match one of segura's old season cards (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=18987.msg826420#msg826420), which iirc used asper's original colors.

I think Autumn is definitely overpowered without some limitation. You could turn an Estate into a Province or Colony, or a Copper into a Gold or Platinum, and with Fortress you could gain any Action card. And there are also times when gaining equal- or lower-cost cards would be beneficial too. It would be especially strong in games with Lurker, Graverobber, and Rogue, where you could rescue Compost and/or the card you trashed from the trash - and since you don't have "differently-named", you could just trash a card for another copy of itself, then rescue the original card. The other three seasons, though, are good effects. Works nicely with a 16-turn year too. In Spring you'll be trashing your Estates and Coppers. Summer is essentially a non-Cantrip version of Upgrade. With Spring starting on turn 3, Winter would start on turn 14. At that point, turning Golds into Duchies would often be a good move

The Autumn effect is the only part that I'm really iffy on. Does the fact that it has to trash itself to upgrade a card compensate for the fact that it can upgrade without any cost-limitation? I think in the end I'm going to have to say that the Autumn effect is too strong for this to be a finalist

My Submission:
(https://i.imgur.com/cFg5apRh.png)

Quote from: Werebear
WEREBEAR  $5
ACTION - RESERVE - SEASON
+4 Cards
In Fall and Winter, put this on your Tavern mat.

At the start of your turn, in Spring, Summer, or Fall you may call this for +1 Card in Spring or +2 Cards in Summer.
                                                                                               

A take on Werewolf, it does not do anything different at Night, but instead hibernates during Winter.

Interesting use of the Reserve mat here. The on-play effect is strong, the same as Hunting Grounds. Hunting Grounds has an additional when-trash benefit and doesn't send itself to the Reserve mat, so the fact that it costs a little less than Hunting Grounds is justified. The effect of calling is interesting. I suspect most of the time you'd want to call it at the start of Spring rather than wait until Summer. I would drop the ability to call it during Fall. But, overall, a good card

Finalist

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51291434390_0119b93843_b.jpg)

Quote
Granary - $4
Victory - Season
1VP
-
When you gain this, if it is...

Spring, trash 3 cards you have in play.
Summer, gain a non-Victory card costing up to $5.
Fall or Winter, +1VP, +1 Coffers.

A victory card that has a variable on-buy effect. Encourages early purchases of what amounts to an Estate. Late game it is pretty much a $3 cost 2VP card, but with trash for benefit cards it could be a good purchase.

Definitely a card you'd buy for the on-gain effect.  Assuming the 12-turn, starting in Spring version, this would make an interesting opening. You could easily trash 3 Coppers right away in the opening. Maybe even 6 Coppers if you buy it on both T1 and T3, but trashing that many Coppers that soon is often a bad move. Buying it in Summer would essentially be the equivalent of an Event costing $4 that said "Gain a non-Victory card costing up to $5 and an Estate" (unless there's trash-for-benefit of course, which would make this more useful than an Estate). I wouldn't say that late game is equivalent to a $3 cost card, since, if you gain it in your buy phase you can't use the Coffers until your next turn (barring Villa or Calvary), but still, 2 VP for $4 wouldn't be a bad buy near the end of the game. And gaining it during your Action phase would let you use that Coffers on the same turn

Finalist

I haven't posted a card in the fan mechanic contests in a while! But that Season idea is very appealing, so I'll take a crack at it. My card is tied with this version of Seasons:

(https://i.postimg.cc/C11XR3tH/Seasons-Dominion.png)

The table show what Season it is for each turn. An average game of Dominion thus ends on the last day of Winter, which is kind of neat. Turn 3, when you have your first deck shuffle and actual cards in it you can use, marks the first day of Spring, to make better use of that Season.

With that being said, here is my card:

(https://i.postimg.cc/knc5tWzB/Four-Leaf-Clover-v2-1.png)

This is an interesting take - and also means that if the game extends out to a second "year" (and games longer than 14 turns are by no means uncommon), then it's different in the second Spring vs the first Spring. In the first Spring it's basically a Copper that double curses - a really strong attack! But the fact that the attack only happens in Spring ameliorates that. Double-cursing would be far too strong if it could happen every turn. In Summer it becomes a slightly-overpriced silver, but then in Fall it's a cheap Gold, and in Winter its even stronger. If you get to a second Spring, it becomes a Platinum that double-curses!

This is a tricky one to judge. I think it's also a bit swingy. Spring lasts from T3-T5. This means that a player who bought this in the opening is guaranteed to be able to play it at least once - but there's also a chance of being able to play it a second time, on T5, with a lucky reshuffle. Furthermore, if the game reaches T15 (start of second Spring), then player 1 will have a really strong advantage, if there are no other cursing attacks or moats. Assume that both players opened with Four-Leaf Clover and both played it only once during first spring.  That means there's six Curses left going into T15. Since this is at least as strong as Gold from Fall on, you'll probably have bought up several of these during the game. So, on T15, with Spring starting anew, player 1 is likely to be able to play more than one of these. If they're able to play 3 or more, they'll run out the Curse pile with Platinum-equivalents! Of course, if there are other cursing attacks, then the Curse pile will likely be empty by that point

Overall, I fear this is broken

Going with the original 20 turn year.

(https://i.imgur.com/jKRnpWx.png)

Thematically the idea is that the loot diminishes over time with all the Pirates plundering it.
Obviously a controversial card with non-terminal Coffer yield and potentially too strong. You can get the sweet Spring bonus only once but then this is still a powerhouse in Summer. In Fall it is a lousy Ducat and in Winter it does nothing.
One obvious way to nerf it would be to use a 16 turn year.

You could get that Spring bonus twice with a lucky reshuffle on T5, but yes, most of the time you'd only get it once. With the original 20-turn year, it's also pretty uncommon that you'll end up in a second Spring, so you can basically write it off as useless after T15 (well, if this is the only +buy, it might still be useful just for that), but there are plenty of Action cards that become less useful in the late game, so I don't think a Treasure card doing the same thing is bad. I rather like this idea. It kind of reminds me of a reverse Fool's Gold, in that Fool's Gold tends to become more valuable later in the game when it becomes easier to line up multiple copies. An unconditional +1 Buy +3 Coffers at $4 would be massively overpowered, but since you're only going to get that effect once, or twice if you get lucky, that's not a problem. I think this is an interesting card, and well-balanced

Finalist

(https://i.imgur.com/vP9nsQQ.png)

Like emtzalex's Werebear, this also requires two mats for one card (counting the season tracker as a mat), so that's an interesting bit of extra set-up. The gaining might be fairly weak in a lot of games, since you can typically only accumulate tokens during T3-T6, assuming you're going with the 12-turn year, so it would probably be hard to accumulate enough tokens to make its gaining worthwhile. If the game extends past Winter, it would basically be just a simple +2 Cards - you'd have to go all the way to a second Fall - T19! - to use any tokens accumulated after Winter. Overall, I fear this is a bit weak

(https://i.imgur.com/MFuc4X6.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/yKacLaT.png)

EDIT: This (also) uses X-tra's 12-turn version of the season mechanic.

I don't think you need (this is a season card) on the project itself. Technically, it's not even accurate to call it a card, but also, it seems unnecessary to me to reference that at all. I'm not so sure that the project would be useful. Ice Queen is very strong in Winter, but the rest of the year, it becomes a junk card, like a Ruined Village that topdecks itself, and since the gaining is not optional once you buy the project, your deck could end up with lots of these. So, a card that's junk 3/4 of the time and strong the other 1/4 doesn't seem like something I'd want to go for in most games. Although, in games with trash-for-benefit, the $5 cost could be useful, and its auto-topdecking would make it easier to line up with trash-for-benefit cards. But, in most games, I think this would end up being one to avoid

Wrangler
Action/Season - $5
+1 Card
+1 Action
Gain a Horse...
In Summer: to the bottom of your deck
In Autumn: onto your deck
In Winter: to your hand

Rules clarification: In Spring, you Gain a Horse (to your discard pile)

I agree with The Alchemist's comment that it's probably best to explicitly state what happens in Spring. But that wording won't affect the judging. This is definitely a good card. A cantrip Horse-gainer is rather strong. Indeed, just non-terminal Horse gaining in general is - note that none of the official Horse-gainers are unqualified non-terminal - and I like how it works with the season mechanic, with each season bringing the Horse closer to you. In Winter, you have it right away, allowing this to function as a double-lab - or you can save the Horse if you don't need to draw any more cards (or have already drawn your deck), so the added flexibility makes it stronger than a simple +1 Action +3 Cards would be. In Autumn it will often be available on the same turn you play it, but if not, then in your next hand. Summer's is interesting. Gaining to the bottom of your deck is a space not used in any official cards. If you play several of these during a Summer turn (or Throne/KC it), then you'll have a lot of draw lined up for a later turn!

Finalist

(https://trello-attachments.s3.amazonaws.com/5f5a8e8e7ed38b522f25641a/60e02260eaf3687aaf05fefa/05e6247e85785aa0c56414487ceaae6c/Causeway.png)
I'm in favour of X-tra's 3 turn cycle starting with 2 winters, so that's what this card uses. $4 might be too cheap.

Edit: a better-coloured mock-up.

This is an interesting one. Spring's effect is weaker than Bridge, which adds +$1. Winter is like a Sleigh or Calvary with an extra buy added, and no reaction or on-gain effect. Summer and Autumn's effects are also pretty good for $4. So, overall, I think that this is probably a decent card at $4

(https://i.imgur.com/Z5aTQLn.png)

This uses The Alchemist's version of Seasons, where we start in winter. To explain the debt cost, I was afraid of weird interactions possibly with cost reducers, but there are no debt cost reducers so it's good. Also, I'm doing a debt-based expansion, so debt cost seemed fun.

Since most games end before turn 15, this is usually at most a +1 card/+4 Action card with an average of about 2 actions across the game. Even in slog games that last, like, 30 turns, sure you'll have that one turn with 10 actions, but that doesn't do much so it doesn't really become oppressive. Now, if it gave cards instead of actions that would be something... but it doesn't. In fact, the main drawback seems to be the fact that even if it gives a lot of actions you need to still rely on drawing it (where with something like Port, drawing is more reliable), so I feel like it's pretty balanced.

Hope it looks interesting, too!

I'm making it cost one less:

(https://i.imgur.com/sM8hqiM.png)

So this is basically a free card in the opening. But since it's just a simple cantrip in Spring, and doesn't become a village until Summer, you're probably not going to open with it, unless you have a 5/2 opening with no good $2 cards, making that not a serious issue. It's interesting in that it allows more non-terminal actions to be purchased later in the game, since it automatically becomes a stronger village over time. A simple idea, but very cool. The only part I'm not crazy about is the debt cost, which feels kinda weird, and prevents the use of any gainers for this. The format of the cost icon also looks a bit weird to me, having "0 debt" as the stated cost, but since the variable cost is in debt and not coin, that's probably the best solution. Also, the name is a bit out of place in Dominion, but that's a minor nitpick

Finalist

(https://i.imgur.com/pWYZu5O.png)

Quote from: Encounter
$4 - Night
In Spring: Gain a card costing up to $4.
In Summer: Exile a card from the Supply costing up to $5.
In Autumn: Gain a gold.
In Winter: Look at the top 6 cards of your deck. Discard any number and put the rest back in any order.
-
This is gained to your hand
(instead of to your discard pile)

This submission uses the original 12-turn season (starting with 3 spring turns).  The gain to hand helps accommodate it.  I wanted it to be a Night card, but also match the cycle through the seasons - starting growth in the Spring, continued growth in the Summer (but it doesn't always grow the way you intended in poor weather, like if you can't gain another of that card to get the one out of Exile), cashing in when you sell crops in the Autumn, and cleaning out the field in Winter.

I'm not overly tied to the name/image of the card, but it's all I've got for now.  Maybe you had a strange encounter at night that helped you with your crops!  (I had initially called it Crop Circles, but  that tied in to the theme of what the card does even less).

Edit: the Summer should be "from the Supply" for the Exile. I'm on mobile at the moment and can't update the picture.

There's one major issue I see here: the fact that you gain this to your hand in Spring would let you instantly pile it out. Then in Summer you could pile out the Duchies, putting them into Exile. Now you only need one more pile to end the game. That seems rather broken. I'd suggest adding "non-Night" to the Spring gaining. I'd also add "non-Victory" to Summer's Exiling, because being able to Exile Duchies seems rather strong for $4. It's a cool idea, but I think that, as it is, it doesn't really work

A lot of good entries in this contest! It was very hard to choose a winner

Winner: Emtzalex's Werebear
First runner-up: Nomorefun's Wrangler
Second runner-up: Segura's Pirate Treasure
Third runner-up: Xen3k's Granary
Title: Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 14: 'Tis the Season
Post by: The Alchemist on July 11, 2021, 05:13:40 am
Thanks for judging! I really enjoyed this week's contest, the season mechanic is really interesting, I'd love to see more cards using it! I really enjoy the 12 turn season starting in Winter, I just played a playtest with it and its super cool how a year ends right about when the game does on average. Good entries everyone!
Title: Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 14: 'Tis the Season
Post by: emtzalex on July 11, 2021, 12:49:51 pm
Thanks mxdata, for judging and for the win. I will post the next contest shortly.
Title: Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 14: 'Tis the Season
Post by: Asper on September 06, 2021, 12:01:22 pm
The Season mat has 20 spaces, 5 per Season, to reflect the typical phases of a game of Dominion:

While three of these can shift, Spring is certainly the one that pushes 5 turns as the standard the most, as this is the lowest number which guarantees that you will see every single one of your opening buys in Spring. Giving Spring only 3 or 4 turns means that you might see some of them randomly miss the Season. This also means that only on-buy and on-gain abilities can care for Spring - at least if you want something that is more than just random happenings.

It's also very relevant for the other Seasons, though. The way we (Co0kieL0rd and I) designed Seasons, one could make an attack that distributes Curses only in Fall, which still works but is too late to hurt players during buildup. We made a Village that you buy during Spring to trash a card, even though nobody needs several Villages early. We made a victory card that rewards you for buying it early, too, and a pile that disappears at the beginning of Fall, a card that you need to open with and play during Spring to max out what it can do, an attack that makes you discard in the middle of the game and topdeck during Spring and Winter, and so on, and so on.

Reducing the turn count ruins this model imo.

NoMoreFun's Wrangler would likely be my pick for winner considering this.
Title: Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 14: 'Tis the Season
Post by: X-tra on September 06, 2021, 12:30:05 pm
The Season mat has 20 spaces, 5 per Season, to reflect the typical phases of a game of Dominion:
  • Spring is the opening
  • Summer is buildup
  • Fall is closing
  • Winter (if it happens) is prolongued endgame.

While three of these can shift, Spring is certainly the one that pushes 5 turns as the standard the most, as this is the lowest number which guarantees that you will see every single one of your opening buys in Spring. Giving Spring only 3 or 4 turns means that you might see some of them randomly miss the Season. This also means that only on-buy and on-gain abilities can care for Spring - at least if you want something that is more than just random happenings.

It's also very relevant for the other Seasons, though. The way we (Co0kieL0rd and I) designed Seasons, one could make an attack that distributes Curses only in Fall, which still works but is too late to hurt players during buildup. We made a Village that you buy during Spring to trash a card, even though nobody needs several Villages early. We made a victory card that rewards you for buying it early, too, and a pile that disappears at the beginning of Fall, a card that you need to open with and play during Spring to max out what it can do, an attack that makes you discard in the middle of the game and topdeck during Spring and Winter, and so on, and so on.

Reducing the turn count ruins this model imo.

NoMoreFun's Wrangler would likely be my pick for winner considering this.

This makes sense; cards made by Co0kieL0rd and you followed the design of the 5-turn per season wheel. Because of that, changing the wheel turn would strangle the intricate design of these Season cards.

However, thatís not to say that other hypothetical cards couldnít be made following a different type of wheel, such as the 3-turn per season one. I think as long as itís stated before, then cards can be properly judged according to which wheel they use. The premise of the Season mechanic is, after all, very much kept at heart.

As for me, personally, I do prefer and advocate for a 3 turn per Season wheel. The Alchemist made a beautiful rendition of it on the first page of this thread. I like it better not only mechanically, but also thematically. For the theme, the most flavourful aspect, we have:
The matches are so well timed Ė my goopy brain couldnít be happier!
Now, mechanically speaking, I think it too fills a nice niche:
Anyway, all in all, both systems work. If you design cards for either of them, then it needs to keep the length of the wheel/seasons in mind. I donít think one can simply port a card from one system to the other, as there are fundamentals that are lost otherwise. For instance, the card I submitted for this contest actually would work way worse if it used the regular wheel with 20 spaces on it.
Title: Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 14: 'Tis the Season
Post by: Asper on September 06, 2021, 12:47:57 pm
I will say that thematic games are something I very much enjoy, but Dominion never was such a game, at least not for me. It's nice if it works out, but as far as I'm concerned one shouldn't aim to let that get in design's way.

Mechanically, shorter Seasons mean you are more likely to see Seasons return, meaning that e.g. Winter cards become both opening and endgame cards. I consider it very hard to design cards with this split-up design space. There's a reason your contest winner is a circulating effect that just uses the Seasons as a way to delay itself, and could almost shift every ability one Season back or forth without losing how it works in essence.

I will admit that having the first two turns be Winter does improve the system, but it still means that you can't do opening on-gain abilities that aren't also endgame abilities, and vice versa. I suppose you can mostly emulate the original system other than that, but as I said, I don't see why one would want to lose on-gains. Rewarding players for opening with certain cards was a big thing in original Seasons.

And regarding 14 turns as the typical game length, should I presume you mostly play 1v1?
Title: Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 14: 'Tis the Season
Post by: X-tra on September 06, 2021, 01:16:50 pm
I will say that thematic games are something I very much enjoy, but Dominion never was such a game. It's nice if it works out, but as far as I'm concerned Dominion is designed in a way where one shouldn't aim to let that get in design's way.

I actually agree about how theme should not be put forth to the detriment of gameplay. This isnít just true to Dominion, but to all games in general. I think this design philosophy is very important. For instance, I tend to design cards without name and art, and then I slap some flavour to tie everything together (this isnít always true, I sometimes succumb to flavourful ideasÖ Iím only human too, hehe). This is how Donald X. does it too I reckon.

That being said, if the theme can align with the gameplay and the two can coexist without one hindering the other, then bam! Thatís a nice bonus and now both ideas benefit from one another. I believe this can be the case here.


I will admit that having the first two turns be Winter does improve the system, but it still means that you can't do opening on-gain abilities that aren't also endgame abilities, and vice versa. I suppose you can mostly emulate the original system other than that, but as I said, I don't see why one would want to lose on-gains solely for *theme*.

I donít think it canít do it, but I will concede that it is a harder goal to achieve indeed. A card could, for instance, do something very neat when gained during Winter, and stay mostly idle on-play until winter comes around again (turn 12 onward). The design space is not completely negated here.
But while some design doors shut themselves with this new wheel, others open. For instance, winter will come around more often in the shorter wheel, which means Season cards using it can exploit that better. Likewise, shorter seasons means more season changes. Cards that care about the number of time seasons have changed in a given game can do stuff with that. There are more ideas out there, probably.


And regarding 14 turns as the typical game length, should I presume you mostly play 1v1?

Online, I mostly do 2-player games, yes. In real life with the physical game, I vastly prefer 3-player games (and I prefer playing in real life overall). I donít play 4-player games or above anymore.
Title: Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 14: 'Tis the Season
Post by: Asper on September 06, 2021, 01:23:18 pm
The reason why I asked for your typical player count was because games with more players tend to have scarcer engine parts and you are more likely to get hit by attacks, which would lead me to say that the average is more around 15 to 16 turns. While this may not seem like much of a difference, it shifts the beginning of Winter into the endgame (instead of its end), meaning that when you buy cards that are best later, you also make the estimation of whether the game will live long enough to use them to full effect (i.e. you can make a card cheap in Spring but great in Winter). This also gets lost here.

Either way, I apologize for complaining so much, I just didn't want to leave the impression 5 turn Seasons had been made on a whim. I think this is where the Seasons mechanic works the best and offers the most design space.

That said, thank you for using our mechanic in this contest :)
Title: Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 14: 'Tis the Season
Post by: X-tra on September 06, 2021, 01:34:27 pm
The reason why I asked for your typical player count was because games with more players tend to have scarcer engine parts and you are more likely to get hit by attacks, which would lead me to say that the average is more around 15 to 16 turns. While this may not seem like much of a difference, it shifts the beginning of Winter into the endgame (instead of its end), meaning that when you buy cards that are best later, you also make the estimation of whether the game will live long enough to use them to full effect (i.e. you can make a game cheap in Spring but great in Winter). This also gets lost here.

Either way, I apologize for complaining so much, I just didn't want to leave the impression 5 turn Seasons had been made on a whim. I think this is where the Seasons mechanic works the best and offers the most design space.

That said, thank you for using our mechanic in this contest :)

I never had the impression that this cool game mechanic was made on a whim. This is one of the most well-known fan mechanic out there in the Dominion community. I even have it on Tabletop Simulator, downloaded from the Steam Workshop before Rio Grande pulled the plug. It mostly comes down to a personal preference of mine. Me liking the shorter wheel better is just a reflection of what I prefer in Dominion, it's not to take a jab at the Season game mechanic at all!

Plus, the cards you guys have made, like I said, were designed with the bigger wheel in mind, and indeed stuff would cease working as intended if it used a different one. So all in all, the thing I was fundamentally trying to point at with my initial wall of text is: Cards should be made and should try to work within the bounds of the gameplay mechanics they use. Cards trying to go for the shorter wheel need to keep it in mind - and vice-versa.