Dominion Strategy Forum

Dominion => Variants and Fan Cards => Weekly Design Contest => Topic started by: naitchman on June 07, 2021, 01:05:51 pm

Title: Weekly Design Contest #117: In the wrong place at the wrong time
Post by: naitchman on June 07, 2021, 01:05:51 pm
Weekly Design Contest 117: In the wrong place at the wrong time

This week's challenge is to create a card or card shaped thing that allows players to play cards during non normal times. Any of the following will work:
•Playing non actions during the action phase (for these purposes, the start of your turn is considered your action phase)
•Playing non treasures during the buy phase
•Playing non night cards during the night phase
•Playing cards that normally can't be played at all (such as curses or victory cards)
•Playing cards during other players turns
•Something else that allows cards to be played at a unique time

1) It can be used to play itself at a unique time (such as caravan guard) or to play another card at a unique time (such as black market).
2) The card must actually be played not used (so noble brigand and reserve cards don't count).
3) It is ok if it requires a little support provided the support is common in games. So village green is ok, even though you need some way to discard it since it is relatively common.
4) A card like Capitalism or Inheritance is good even though the card you're now playing is a treasure (in the case of capitalism) or an action (in the case of inheritance) since the card is not normally an action/treasure.

Here is a list of all the cards I found that use this (Feel free to point out the ones I missed):
Caravan Guard
Storyteller
Inheritance
Scepter
Innovation
Capitalism
Black Market
Black Cat
Sheepdog
Village Green
Falconer
Gamble
Toil
March
Reap
(Most of from the later expansions, especially Menagerie)

Judging will be based on how interesting, fun, and balanced the card is. Have fun!

I will post a 24 hour warning.

Feel free to ask any questions, and I will try to clarify.
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #117: In the wrong place at the wrong time
Post by: mandioca15 on June 07, 2021, 02:51:26 pm
Ruby (Treasure, $4)

+$2
---
When you gain or trash this, you may play an Action card from your hand.

This allows you to play Action cards at potentially unusual times.
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #117: In the wrong place at the wrong time
Post by: grep on June 07, 2021, 03:12:09 pm
(https://i.ibb.co/4RmtT0f/image.png)

Nightmare
$5 - Night - Attack - Duration
Each other player gains a Curse into their hand.
At start of your next turn, +2 Cards.
-
While this is in play, Curses are also Night cards with "Gain a Horse".


A nighttime curser which comes with a consolation. Normally the opponent can use the newly received Curse next night.
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #117: In the wrong place at the wrong time
Post by: Kingreaper on June 07, 2021, 04:50:06 pm
First thought is a variant on Inheritance - another way to turn Estates into something useful - bit by bit.

(https://i.imgur.com/BN9G88U.png)

Tenancy
Event
Cost: $6

Place your +1 Card, +1 Action, +$1 or +1 Buy token on the Estate pile. (When you play an Estate you first receive that benefit.)

-----
In games using this Estates are also Actions with "+1 Action".



Previous version:
(https://i.imgur.com/Z5As918.png)
Tenancy
Event
Cost: $2

Place your +1 Card, +1 Action, +$1 or +1 Buy token on the Estate pile. (When you play an Estate you first receive that benefit.)

-----
Estates are also Actions.

Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #117: In the wrong place at the wrong time
Post by: fika monster on June 07, 2021, 05:17:02 pm
Naitchman: Does cards that returns you to a different phase count?

Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #117: In the wrong place at the wrong time
Post by: naitchman on June 07, 2021, 05:42:54 pm
Naitchman: Does cards that returns you to a different phase count?

Villa would not count since actions are still being played in the action phase, treasures are still being played in the treasure phase etc.
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #117: In the wrong place at the wrong time
Post by: LastFootnote on June 07, 2021, 06:12:27 pm
First thought is a variant on Inheritance - another way to turn Estates into something useful - bit by bit.

(https://i.imgur.com/Z5As918.png)

Tenancy
Event
Cost: $2

Place your +1 Card, +1 Action, +$1 or +1 Buy token on the Estate pile. (When you play an Estate you first receive that benefit.)

-----
Estates are also Actions.


This is a cool idea. Two suggestions:

First, I think the bottom should say, "In games using this, Estates are also Action cards."

Second, I would price it higher, like maybe $4. I think right now this is something I'd almost always double-open. Getting +1 Card/+1 Action on my Estates after the first two buys is basically like trashing them, and then you can make them stronger from there. In fact, I think it may want to cost $5. Otherwise on a 4/3 split you can buy the +$1 token first and then still buy Tenancy again on Turn 2.
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #117: In the wrong place at the wrong time
Post by: Kingreaper on June 07, 2021, 06:45:57 pm
This is a cool idea. Two suggestions:

First, I think the bottom should say, "In games using this, Estates are also Action cards."

Second, I would price it higher, like maybe $4. I think right now this is something I'd almost always double-open. Getting +1 Card/+1 Action on my Estates after the first two buys is basically like trashing them, and then you can make them stronger from there. In fact, I think it may want to cost $5. Otherwise on a 4/3 split you can buy the +$1 token first and then still buy Tenancy again on Turn 2.
$5 at a time seems way too much to me - while you're right about $3 and $4 not being much different from $2 in the early game. Although... with a $3 start, you could take +buy and buy it twice on your second go... yeah, that doesn't work out right.

At $5 to make your estates into ruins I can't see it being used under almost any circumstances - you'd need to be sure you were going to hit that second $5 very soon.

Although I did have the thought of having a higher starting cost (like $5) and having them start with +1 Action - so they could become villages. Very different card, but probably more interesting in terms of choices.

Although that does mean a 5/2 opening becomes a guaranteed 5/5... dangit, I like this idea but now that you've pointed out the flaw I'm not sure I can make it actually work.

Eh, $6 it is...
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #117: In the wrong place at the wrong time
Post by: emtzalex on June 07, 2021, 07:08:28 pm
$5 at a time seems way too much to me - while you're right about $3 and $4 not being much different from $2 in the early game. Although... with a $3 start, you could take +buy and buy it twice on your second go... yeah, that doesn't work out right.

At $5 to make your estates into ruins I can't see it being used under almost any circumstances - you'd need to be sure you were going to hit that second $5 very soon.

Although I did have the thought of having a higher starting cost (like $5) and having them start with +1 Action - so they could become villages. Very different card, but probably more interesting in terms of choices.

Although that does mean a 5/2 opening becomes a 5/5. Not the first card that can have that effect, but it's a worrying one and this would be guaranteed... dangit, I like this idea but now that you've pointed out the flaw I'm not sure I can make it actually work.

Eh, $6 it is...

If your main concern is the immediacy of this and its effect on openings, you could delay the process by having the Event gain a one-shot non-Supply card that moves the tokens:

(https://i.imgur.com/owOQuwDh.png)

That way, players will have to wait until at least the next shuffle for them to take effect, and (in this incarnation) spend a card and an Action (although you could make it non-terminal like Wish, or even a Cantrip).
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #117: In the wrong place at the wrong time
Post by: kru5h on June 07, 2021, 08:34:01 pm
My entry: Interpreter. It's Storyteller for Actions instead of Cards.

(https://i.imgur.com/fTwkWKM.png)
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #117: In the wrong place at the wrong time
Post by: spineflu on June 07, 2021, 10:43:59 pm
(https://trello-attachments.s3.amazonaws.com/5d34c84e360a440d0d16278b/60bed8255477980f03ea0d95/34859601f715cc7c17b09c49a92c2ce2/image.png)
Quote
Umarell (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umarell) • $5 • Action - Duration - Reaction
At the start of your next turn, +2 Cards, +1 Action, and +1 Buy.
-
Directly after another player finishes playing a card, if they have 8 or more cards in hand, you may play this from your hand.

edit: thanks grep!
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #117: In the wrong place at the wrong time
Post by: LastFootnote on June 07, 2021, 11:33:55 pm
When another player has 8 or more cards in hand, you may play this from your hand.

That's an interesting trigger, but I think it needs to be more specific. As it stands, you can literally choose to trigger this at any moment as long as somebody has 8 cards in hand, even in the middle of resolving any effect.
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #117: In the wrong place at the wrong time
Post by: NoMoreFun on June 08, 2021, 02:22:24 am
Misfit
Night - $4
Gain a card costing up to $4. If it's an Action, you may play it.
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #117: In the wrong place at the wrong time
Post by: Aquila on June 08, 2021, 04:17:07 am
(https://trello-attachments.s3.amazonaws.com/5e88b5ebdca4eb2a73be5eec/5fcf41f10dedcc19d51c0756/dbff3136649d4897a27e25db5301e3a9/Wanderer.png) (https://trello-attachments.s3.amazonaws.com/5e88b5ebdca4eb2a73be5eec/5fcf41f10dedcc19d51c0756/d191be48e0fb9462e8b7f3b1f92fb335/WandererBoomerang.png)
Wanderer is basically 'play a Boomerang and get it back again, or if you can't it's a cantrip'. It's ultimately a Peddler variant.
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #117: In the wrong place at the wrong time
Post by: spineflu on June 08, 2021, 07:48:43 am
When another player has 8 or more cards in hand, you may play this from your hand.

That's an interesting trigger, but I think it needs to be more specific. As it stands, you can literally choose to trigger this at any moment as long as somebody has 8 cards in hand, even in the middle of resolving any effect.
see thats what the discord said too, but I don't think it matters to have a well defined time-to-play since its exclusively a well defined time-of-effect.
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #117: In the wrong place at the wrong time
Post by: MochaMoko on June 08, 2021, 07:49:40 am
(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/685147225470271508/851788251664613386/Weaponsmith_MochaMoko.png)

Quote from: MochaMoko
Weaponsmith
④ Action - Duration
+2 Cards
At the start of your
next turn, +1 Card.
-
When you trash this, set it
aside. If you did, play it.


A very simple draw card. Unlike Fortress, this goes bye-bye from hand and so can't be trashed multiple times easily. There are still plenty of tricks to do! And hey, who doesn't like draw.
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #117: In the wrong place at the wrong time
Post by: LastFootnote on June 08, 2021, 11:44:43 am
When another player has 8 or more cards in hand, you may play this from your hand.

That's an interesting trigger, but I think it needs to be more specific. As it stands, you can literally choose to trigger this at any moment as long as somebody has 8 cards in hand, even in the middle of resolving any effect.
see thats what the discord said too, but I don't think it matters to have a well defined time-to-play since its exclusively a well defined time-of-effect.

But as I've since said in the Discord, that all gets thrown out the window by Way of the Mouse. Suddenly you can be playing Swindler at any moment when any player has at least 8 cards in hand.
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #117: In the wrong place at the wrong time
Post by: grep on June 08, 2021, 11:50:06 am
edit: Added "and no card effects are resolving" so this doesn't trigger when someone hits 8-in-hand off a Forum or an all-copper Royal Blacksmith. I think I borrowed that from mtg or something so if someone has a more appropriate dominionese wording, i'm open to suggestions.
That's a bit hard to follow condition, especially when Duration cards are present (are they still resolving?). One option is to borrow the wording from Royal Carriage: "Directly after another player finish playing a card,...."
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #117: In the wrong place at the wrong time
Post by: LastFootnote on June 08, 2021, 11:50:59 am
Weaponsmith
④ Action - Duration
+2 Cards
At the start of your
next turn, +1 Card.
-
When you trash this, set it
aside. If you did, play it.

Because an upvote isn't enough, let me say right now that this is fantastic.
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #117: In the wrong place at the wrong time
Post by: mxdata on June 08, 2021, 12:22:58 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/dJZY1qX.png)
Quote
Mad Hatter
Event
$3
Place your Action or Treasure token on any Supply pile

The Action and Treasure tokens add those types to the pile they're placed on.  So, the Treasure token works like a mini-Capitalism, only affecting a single card (but at the same time not restricted to those with +$).  The tokens can be placed on any supply pile. Technically, you could even put them on cards that already have those types, but they wouldn't do anything in that case

Like Capitalism, the tokens do not change what the cards do, only when they can be played. You can put them on Curses or pure Victory cards, but it would rarely be useful to do so - playing a Curse or Victory card has no effect other than to put the card in play and. if played during the Action phase, using up an Action. However, it can sometimes be useful if there are cards that interact with those types. E.g., placing the Treasure token on Curses would allow cards like Spice Merchant to trash them

In most kingdoms, the Action token wouldn't see much use, but there are some nice combos. Placing it on, say, Duchy would allow you to use Advance to turn any other Action card into a Duchy, or placing it on Curse could allow you to use Advance to turn Curses into Action cards. Where it would really shine is in games with Ways. A card with the Action token works just like any other Action card and can therefore use the Way. Way of the Horse with the Action token on Copper or Curse, for example, would effectively let you gain Horses for free with any extra buys, and would make Cursers useless. Some Night cards would also benefit from the Action token
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #117: In the wrong place at the wrong time
Post by: X-tra on June 08, 2021, 12:32:37 pm
(https://i.postimg.cc/yYGC6tRX/Monarchy-v1.png)

Toil plays from your hand, March plays from your discard pile, Gamble plays from your deck and Summon plays from the Supply. Monarchy, thus, plays from your cards in-play. It is the missing link!
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #117: In the wrong place at the wrong time
Post by: Chappy7 on June 08, 2021, 12:45:36 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/sbfw6V9.png)

Kind of a weird Shephard thing.  You can't discard and redraw the same Victory cards.  It can help you gain victory cards. The draw could scale really big, but that would mean you have a junky deck. 
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #117: In the wrong place at the wrong time
Post by: Timinou on June 08, 2021, 01:33:31 pm
EDIT: Revised submission
(https://i.imgur.com/pXfIKAs.png)

Original submission
(https://i.imgur.com/geC06DY.png)

Gaulish Village allows you to play a Potion during your Action phase.

Essentially, your Potion gives you +3 Cards without spending an Action if you can collide it with a Gaulish Village.  You don't spend the Potion that you play in order to get the extra draw, so you can still use it during your Buy phase to buy another Gaulish Village (or other Potion-cost card). 
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #117: In the wrong place at the wrong time
Post by: naitchman on June 08, 2021, 01:54:46 pm
(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/685147225470271508/851788251664613386/Weaponsmith_MochaMoko.png)

Quote from: MochaMoko
Weaponsmith
④ Action - Duration
+2 Cards
At the start of your
next turn, +1 Card.
-
When you trash this, set it
aside. If you did, play it.


A very simple draw card. Unlike Fortress, this goes bye-bye from hand and so can't be trashed multiple times easily. There are still plenty of tricks to do! And hey, who doesn't like draw.

I am not disqualifying this card (yet). I am on the border at the moment. I am going to let you state your case if you'd like.
One of the rules was "It is ok if it requires a little support provided the support is common in games"

The number of ways to trash an action, not during your own action phase is relatively low. Here are the cards I've found (I may have missed a few):
goat
monastery
bat
exorcist
donate
advance
bonfire
plan
ritual
trade
farmland
doctor
cemetery
saboteur
swindler
knights
rogue
giant warrior
locusts
war
governor
bishop

(note that 2 of them are hexes which means they won't come up that often even in games using them)
I did a couple randomized sets and got 3/10 that had a way to trash outside of your action phase. So I am somewhat leaning to disqualify this.
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #117: In the wrong place at the wrong time
Post by: Timinou on June 08, 2021, 03:13:21 pm
Sauna/Silver works as well.

Likewise, playing a Reaction during an opponent’s turn as Way of the Mouse with any card that trashes would also do the trick.

Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #117: In the wrong place at the wrong time
Post by: emtzalex on June 08, 2021, 03:44:55 pm
Sauna/Silver works as well.

Likewise, playing a Reaction during an opponent’s turn as Way of the Mouse with any card that trashes would also do the trick.

Or replaying a trashing Action using Scepter. Or gaining a trashing Action (by buying it or otherwise) during your Buy phase when you have Innovation and playing it.

Animal Fair works, as you can trash Weaponsmith for its alternate buy effect. You also missed Enhance and Watchtower.

There's also The Flame's Gift, which you can sometimes get outside of your Action phase (via Idol, Blessed Village's on-gain, or an opponent's Sacred Grove).
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #117: In the wrong place at the wrong time
Post by: mathdude on June 08, 2021, 03:54:20 pm
Let's go with a split pile:

(https://i.imgur.com/SNFDAHB.png) (https://i.imgur.com/loQFMiW.png)

The top card is unassuming, and quite weak on its own.  It pairs well with something like Tactician, allowing you to get more coins before you discard your hand and still possibly buy something useful on that turn.

But once you get to the bottom card, it works similar to Venture, except that you don't get to play the treasure you reveal (while resolving it's effects - if it's another Repository card, you can play it in your Buy phase still).  But now if you can pair up things well, for the $5 card, you can get a +Buy and $4.  Sometimes it will only be worth $2 though (similar to Venture).  But now Lender allowing you to play a Treasure in your Action phase pairs up with cards like Tactician mentioned above, but also has strong combinations with drawing any other Lenders or Repositories you draw from the Repository you played (and can allow you to play any more of the Lenders that you drew).
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #117: In the wrong place at the wrong time
Post by: spineflu on June 08, 2021, 04:30:56 pm
edit: Added "and no card effects are resolving" so this doesn't trigger when someone hits 8-in-hand off a Forum or an all-copper Royal Blacksmith. I think I borrowed that from mtg or something so if someone has a more appropriate dominionese wording, i'm open to suggestions.
That's a bit hard to follow condition, especially when Duration cards are present (are they still resolving?). One option is to borrow the wording from Royal Carriage: "Directly after another player finish playing a card,...."

Good call. I'm making that change.
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #117: In the wrong place at the wrong time
Post by: Xen3k on June 08, 2021, 05:49:22 pm
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51234578396_4c87e8c538_b.jpg)

Quote
Night Preacher - $3
Night - Reaction
Trash a card in your hand.
+1 Card at the end of this turn.
----
When you gain a card, you may reveal this from your hand, to gain it to your hand. If you do, play this.

A simple trasher that can be played whenever you gain a card with the added benefit that you gain the card to your hand. Great at countering junkers but can be tricky if you react to getting something nice on your turn as the trashing is mandatory. Not sure about the price, as a non-terminal trasher is pretty good at $3. Had it draw to a 6 card hand on the following turn, but could not get the "Night - Reaction - Duration" coloration to look good and this version is functional if a bit stronger. Feedback is appreciated.
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #117: In the wrong place at the wrong time
Post by: MochaMoko on June 08, 2021, 06:36:10 pm
I am not disqualifying this card (yet). I am on the border at the moment. I am going to let you state your case if you'd like.
One of the rules was "It is ok if it requires a little support provided the support is common in games"
[...]
I did a couple randomized sets and got 3/10 that had a way to trash outside of your action phase. So I am somewhat leaning to disqualify this.

This is a fair point. Village Green's activation effect has plenty of triggers out of your Action phase, though its more common functionality is still during Action phase. Weaponsmith's cases out of Action phase feel much more edgy. Buy phase trashing is not very common, though they exist. (Buy phase discarding is also not too common, but) Trashing attacks are also (thankfully) few and far between, unlike discard attacks.

I think this card is narrow enough to be considered for disqualification, but it's, like you said, on the border. I will keep it out here, though, until I can think up of a card that more easily fits into the criteria.


Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #117: In the wrong place at the wrong time
Post by: DunnoItAll on June 08, 2021, 06:59:34 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/s0TAG6w.png)
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #117: In the wrong place at the wrong time
Post by: Timinou on June 08, 2021, 09:35:03 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/s0TAG6w.png)

Is there a reason this needs to be a Duration?  You don’t need to spend Villagers right away, so isn’t it simpler just to gain them during the turn in which Recruits is played?  I guess there could be some esoteric benefits that you could get from playing the Treasures at the start of your next turn, but I don’t think those will be that common.  If it was an attempt to nerf the card, I don’t think it’s necessary.  Even as a non-Duration, I think it might be weak for $4.
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #117: In the wrong place at the wrong time
Post by: naitchman on June 08, 2021, 11:07:54 pm
I am not disqualifying this card (yet). I am on the border at the moment. I am going to let you state your case if you'd like.
One of the rules was "It is ok if it requires a little support provided the support is common in games"
[...]
I did a couple randomized sets and got 3/10 that had a way to trash outside of your action phase. So I am somewhat leaning to disqualify this.

This is a fair point. Village Green's activation effect has plenty of triggers out of your Action phase, though its more common functionality is still during Action phase. Weaponsmith's cases out of Action phase feel much more edgy. Buy phase trashing is not very common, though they exist. (Buy phase discarding is also not too common, but) Trashing attacks are also (thankfully) few and far between, unlike discard attacks.

I think this card is narrow enough to be considered for disqualification, but it's, like you said, on the border. I will keep it out here, though, until I can think up of a card that more easily fits into the criteria.

I've thought about it, and because it's on the border, I'm going to err on the side of leniency. I'd rather keep the contest fun then be overly nitpicky (and as emtzalex pointed out, there seems to be more ways to trash it outside your action phase that I've missed). I won't detract any judging points bc it's on the border; I'll judge it for what it is.
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #117: In the wrong place at the wrong time
Post by: emtzalex on June 08, 2021, 11:42:43 pm
My Submission (a 5/5 split pile):
(https://i.imgur.com/e5nKaErh.png)

Quote from: Respite
RESPITE -- $4
ACTION
+2 Cards
If you have an odd number of Respites in play, you may play and Action card from your hand; if an even number, a Treasure card.
                                       
(https://i.imgur.com/DvlgrKmh.png)

Quote from: Nepenthe
NEPENTHE -- $5
TREASURE
$2
If it's your Action phase, +1 Action; otherwise, choose one: trash a Curse from your hand; or +1 Buy.
                                       

While I normally reserve my pop-culture/literary references for the fan card mechanic contest, since I'm judging it this week I'll have to make one here.

The first time you play Respite it is (effectively) a Lab, which is a steal at $4. The next one is a Lackeys without the on-buy bonus, which would be overpriced at $2. Of course, the first Respite increase your chance of getting ahold of a village to let you play the second Respite non-terminally.

Once you get through the Respites, you get to Nepenthe, which can make your second Respite non-terminal, if you can collide all 3 cards. Because it's a split pile, you can do this at most 2 times in a turn, so it shouldn't be too overpowering. If you missed the Respites, Nepenthe also combos with Black Market or Storyteller, while there are plenty of tricks to work Respite to your advantage (particularly if you can play one real copy, then emulate it with Command cards).
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #117: In the wrong place at the wrong time
Post by: majiponi on June 08, 2021, 11:43:40 pm
Sandwich Shop
cost $2 - Action - Reaction
+1 Action
+$1
+1 Buy
Take an extra buy phase immediately.
---
When another player plays an Attack card, you may first play this from your hand.


Ex1.
play a Sandwich Shop
(You can play Treasures.)
play 2 Coppers
buy a Silver
(Return to your action phase.)
play a Library to draw 6 cards


Ex2.
Another player plays a Militia
You play a Sandwich Shop
You play 4 Coppers
You buy a Duchy
You don't discard your hand (you have 0 card).


Note: After another player's turns, you have $0.
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #117: In the wrong place at the wrong time
Post by: emtzalex on June 09, 2021, 03:21:13 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/geC06DY.png)

Gaulish Village allows you to play a Potion during your Action phase.

Essentially, your Potion becomes a Lab if you can collide it with a Gaulish Village.  You don't spend the Potion that you play in order to get the Lab effect, so you can still use it during your Buy phase to buy another Gaulish Village (or other Potion-cost card).

Since it's not costing you an Action to play, the Potion actually becomes a Lost City (which might be a bit redundant when played with a village).
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #117: In the wrong place at the wrong time
Post by: The Alchemist on June 09, 2021, 05:23:13 pm
(https://imgur.com/xsCEP4w.png)

Aqua Vitae:
Similar to Apothecary, allows for playing Potions and Coppers in the Action phase, and makes engines with little Copper thinning or DtX engines with potion cards a lot more viable. The and/or means to play up to 3 cards, of which either could be a Copper or Potion. Name and theme based off a similar card by eHalcyon.
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #117: In the wrong place at the wrong time
Post by: faust on June 10, 2021, 05:44:18 am
(https://i.imgur.com/EmBmWID.png)
Quote
Burial Mound - $4+
Victory

Worth 1VP per 2 differently named Actions in the trash.
-
When you buy this, you may overpay for it, to replay and then trash one non-Duration card you have in play per $ you overpaid.
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #117: In the wrong place at the wrong time
Post by: naitchman on June 12, 2021, 10:59:01 pm
(https://imgur.com/xsCEP4w.png)

Aqua Vitae:
Similar to Apothecary, allows for playing Potions and Coppers in the Action phase, and makes engines with little Copper thinning or DtX engines with potion cards a lot more viable. The and/or means to play up to 3 cards, of which either could be a Copper or Potion. Name and theme based off a similar card by eHalcyon.

Just to clarify, do you get the value of the card in addition to the +$1/+buy? For example, if I play a potion and choose +buy, do I get a potion and a +buy?
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #117: In the wrong place at the wrong time
Post by: spheremonk on June 13, 2021, 02:42:42 am

(https://abload.de/img/foreignmarketcontestq5ky0.png)

This may seem swingy, but compared to Black Market, a jump-ball for all cards seems less luck-based than random cards off the top of the deck. Some Foreign Market mats may have a first-player advantage, but as we know, Dominion has a built-in first player advantage.
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #117: In the wrong place at the wrong time
Post by: faust on June 13, 2021, 03:14:11 am

(https://abload.de/img/foreignmarketcontestq5ky0.png)

This may seem swingy, but compared to Black Market, a jump-ball for all cards seems less luck-based than random cards off the top of the deck. Some Foreign Market mats may have a first-player advantage, but as we know, Dominion has a built-in first player advantage.
Swingy and luck-based aren't the same thing. It is very much possible to get a game-deciding card from the Black Market deck. However, you don't know beforehand that you are going to get it, and thus you cannot plan your deck to make the most use of it, and furthermore, every time the opponent plays Black Market they have a chance to get an equally good card. They may never do, but the possibilty keeps the game going and interesting. With Foreign Market it's just, okay, you got the Mountebank off the Foreign Market mat, gg I guess. The game is over by the second shuffle.
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #117: In the wrong place at the wrong time
Post by: The Alchemist on June 13, 2021, 05:24:31 am
(https://imgur.com/xsCEP4w.png)

Aqua Vitae:
Similar to Apothecary, allows for playing Potions and Coppers in the Action phase, and makes engines with little Copper thinning or DtX engines with potion cards a lot more viable. The and/or means to play up to 3 cards, of which either could be a Copper or Potion. Name and theme based off a similar card by eHalcyon.

Just to clarify, do you get the value of the card in addition to the +$1/+buy? For example, if I play a potion and choose +buy, do I get a potion and a +buy?

Yes, the card instructs you to play the treasures, so they enter play and give their resource as normal. It would need the "instead" keyword otherwise.
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #117: In the wrong place at the wrong time
Post by: Shael on June 13, 2021, 03:00:00 pm
Aqua Vitae:
Similar to Apothecary, allows for playing Potions and Coppers in the Action phase, and makes engines with little Copper thinning or DtX engines with potion cards a lot more viable. The and/or means to play up to 3 cards, of which either could be a Copper or Potion. Name and theme based off a similar card by eHalcyon.
good catch, you've done it before me, I haven't thinked about this one.

Anyway, Here's my submition:

(https://www.zupimages.net/up/21/17/v9d7.png)

Quote

Pillager

+3 Cards
Each other player exile a Ruins from the Supply.
If it isn't your turn, they discard all their exiled Ruin.
-
When an other player buy a card costing more than $6, you may play this from your hand.

6$ Action-Reaction-Attack-Looter



Pillager is one of my previous card.
It's a little bit like Coven (and black cat) but it don’t strongly junk you at the end: it’s more delayed. Moreover, have a ruin in Exile is way better than have a Curse in Exile but play this outside of your turn make it non-terminal. I usualy design cards that change the way to play the game and I think Pillager change if you'll buy Province or not and when you'll do it.

Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #117: In the wrong place at the wrong time
Post by: Timinou on June 13, 2021, 07:32:04 pm
Aqua Vitae:
Similar to Apothecary, allows for playing Potions and Coppers in the Action phase, and makes engines with little Copper thinning or DtX engines with potion cards a lot more viable. The and/or means to play up to 3 cards, of which either could be a Copper or Potion. Name and theme based off a similar card by eHalcyon.
good catch, you've done it before me, I haven't thinked about this one.

Anyway, Here's my submition:

(https://www.zupimages.net/up/21/17/v9d7.png)

Quote

Pillager

+3 Cards
Each other player exile a Ruins from the Supply.
If it isn't your turn, they discard all their exiled Ruin.
-
When an other player buy a card costing more than $6, you may play this from your hand.

6$ Action-Reaction-Attack-Looter



Pillager is one of my previous card.
It's a little bit like Coven (and black cat) but it don’t strongly junk you at the end: it’s more delayed. Moreover, have a ruin in Exile is way better than have a Curse in Exile but play this outside of your turn make it non-terminal. I usualy design cards that change the way to play the game and I think Pillager change if you'll buy Province or not and when you'll do it.


Are you fine with Pillager becoming weaker with cost reduction?  If not, maybe it should say "costing more than this"?  Would it also be so bad if it was triggered on gain rather than on buy?
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #117: In the wrong place at the wrong time
Post by: Timinou on June 13, 2021, 07:40:19 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/geC06DY.png)

Gaulish Village allows you to play a Potion during your Action phase.

Essentially, your Potion becomes a Lab if you can collide it with a Gaulish Village.  You don't spend the Potion that you play in order to get the Lab effect, so you can still use it during your Buy phase to buy another Gaulish Village (or other Potion-cost card).

Since it's not costing you an Action to play, the Potion actually becomes a Lost City (which might be a bit redundant when played with a village).

You're right...and I also agree that having the extra Action is overkill.  I've updated the card:

(https://i.imgur.com/pXfIKAs.png)
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #117: In the wrong place at the wrong time
Post by: naitchman on June 13, 2021, 09:53:47 pm
24 Hour Warning!

Get your submissions in now. Here is what I have so far (will add comments later). Please make sure that your submission is there and that it is up to date. Just as a heads up, I know I am going to be a bit busy. I will try to get to this ASAP, but this might take a couple of days.

Ruby (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20815.msg871265#msg871265) by mandioca15
Quote
(Treasure, $4)
+$2
---
When you gain or trash this, you may play an Action card from your hand.
A silver, with a little extra boost when you gain or trash it. Nothing flashy, but I think it's a nice and balanced card.
Nightmare (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20815.msg871266#msg871266) by grep
(https://i.ibb.co/4RmtT0f/image.png)
The only entry that allows curses to be played. I think this has some interesting interactions. It doles out curses, but it doesn’t clog the deck as well. They can use the curse they just got to get some draw later. So it still clogs the deck, but not as much as a normal curse. And even after the curses are gone, you can use your own nightmare to make your curses horse gainers (but then you allow your opponent to do that too). Definitely an interesting one.
Tenancy (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20815.msg871270#msg871270) by Kingreaper
(https://i.imgur.com/BN9G88U.png)
As pointed out there is this kind of dilemma with pricing. The final version seems a bit weak for its price. I'm sure there are games where it will be worth it, but you need to buy this at least twice (and then buy some estates) to really make it worthwhile, and at that point I'd have to consider the opportunity cost of 2 $6 turns.
Interpreter (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20815.msg871285#msg871285) by kru5h
(https://i.imgur.com/fTwkWKM.png)
It has some potential, but I think this is a bit too strong. Even  a single interperter makes a whole turn very different. Most engines have some sort of virtual currency (and this card provides a way to get coin midturn as well). If all coins can now be used as actions, it makes it a lot easier to not have to worry about terminal collision. I think a more balanced fix might take off the bottom part, and allow you to convert coin to action when you play it, not during the whole turn.
Umarell (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20815.msg871286#msg871286) by spineflu
(https://trello-attachments.s3.amazonaws.com/5d34c84e360a440d0d16278b/60bed8255477980f03ea0d95/34859601f715cc7c17b09c49a92c2ce2/image.png)
The card is pretty straightforward. I like the interaction. If you can't pull it off, it's somewhat weak for a $5. If you can, it's pretty good. I like how just the presence of this card in my opponents deck might make me careful in keeping my handsize low (playing actions in the right order).
Misfit (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20815.msg871290#msg871290) by NoMoreFun
Quote
Night - $4
Gain a card costing up to $4. If it's an Action, you may play it.
This compares well to Ironworks. They both don’t take actions if you use it to get an action (which is what you'll usually get with <$4). This doesn't get you any +$1 or +Card for treasures or victory cards (or more for dual types), but it allows you to play the actions you get. How useful an action is in your night phase, depends on the action card. Overall I think it's good
Wanderer/ Boomerang (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20815.msg871291#msg871291) by Aquila
(https://trello-attachments.s3.amazonaws.com/5e88b5ebdca4eb2a73be5eec/5fcf41f10dedcc19d51c0756/dbff3136649d4897a27e25db5301e3a9/Wanderer.png)(https://trello-attachments.s3.amazonaws.com/5e88b5ebdca4eb2a73be5eec/5fcf41f10dedcc19d51c0756/d191be48e0fb9462e8b7f3b1f92fb335/WandererBoomerang.png)
Kind of reminds me of vassal or herald. Has some interesting choices, especially with the opening. Do I play a boomerang by itself and risk my opponent stealing my boomerang from the trash? I think the interaction overall is ok, but I think it suffers from the fact that all of your wanderers depend so much on one card (presuming you don't steal one from someone else). It seems it will be very swingy. If I start my turn with a boomerang, my wanderers will be pretty strong; if my boomerang is at the bottom of my deck, I won't get to use my wanderers to their full potential. Worse if I trash my boomerang and my opponent takes it, his wanderers are better and my wanderers are weak. Even if you're careful to not trash your boomerang, with swindler this can be annoying if your opponent trashes your boomerang and then steals it.
Weaponsmith (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20815.msg871297#msg871297) by MochaMoko
(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/685147225470271508/851788251664613386/Weaponsmith_MochaMoko.png)
I've always liked fortress, and I think this a good addition. It's not too similar, but it's got the same flavor. I really like it.
Mad Hatter (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20815.msg871308#msg871308) by mxdata
(https://i.imgur.com/dJZY1qX.png)
Tresure token seems like the more common route. It seems similar to lost arts, but obviously playing actions during your action phase works better than playing them during your buy phase. I like capitalism, so I like this card as well. It doesn't work for as many cards but at least you get to choose. I think anordinaoryman's Midas's Touch had a good idea of preventing you from putting this on provinces so you can't use mint or hero to gain provinces too easily. Either way the fact that there are interesting combos that you mentioned (like spice merchant) makes this a nice card.
Monarchy (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20815.msg871309#msg871309) by X-tra
(https://i.postimg.cc/yYGC6tRX/Monarchy-v1.png)
I think you said it well yourself; this is the missing link. The game of dominion is now complete. :) It fits very well into the cards that already exist.
Politician (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20815.msg871310#msg871310) by Chappy7
(https://i.imgur.com/sbfw6V9.png)
It's pretty simple in a normal game. The more victory cards you can play with these, the better they become. In games with action-victory cards they become even stronger. I can my windmills first so that all of my politicians are stronger, or I can use my politician to play my windmill, saving me an action. My gut tells me that this is too cheap for what it can do (even in a game without action-victory cards). With enough of these, they can become a strong draw engine by themselves.
Gaulish Village (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20815.msg871312#msg871312) by Timinou
(https://i.imgur.com/pXfIKAs.png)
A village that lets you make use of that potion card clogging deck (or not clogging your deck if you're still using it). I feel like ghalish village and potion combo could be too strong (if it lines up), and at the same time, too swingy. I need those potions to line up with my GV.
Lender/ Repository (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20815.msg871319#msg871319) by mathdude
(https://i.imgur.com/SNFDAHB.png)(https://i.imgur.com/loQFMiW.png)
Pretty straightforward. Repository makes lender worthwhile (without it, lender seems weak). It think the pile is good.
Night Preacher (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20815.msg871324#msg871324) by Xen3k
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51234578396_4c87e8c538_b.jpg)
I think this a well balanced card. Can be used to defend against junkers, and can also let you get gained cards immediately. I like this one.
Recruits (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20815.msg871327#msg871327) by DunnoItAll
(https://i.imgur.com/s0TAG6w.png)
My instinct tells me this is too strong. Villagers are pretty powerful, but this $4 card could get you a ton to last you for a pretty long time. Two silvers would get you 4 villagers which can make your engine run way more smooth. Even 2 coppers can be a pretty big help.
Respite/ Nepenthe (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20815.msg871332#msg871332) by emtzalex
(https://i.imgur.com/e5nKaErh.png)(https://i.imgur.com/DvlgrKmh.png)
I like the way these cards synergize. Respite will be a bit rough before you get to the bottom of the pile, but I think that's fine. Overall good.
Sandwich Shop (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20815.msg871333#msg871333) by majiponi
Quote
cost $2 - Action - Reaction
+1 Action
+$1
+1 Buy
Take an extra buy phase immediately.
---
When another player plays an Attack card, you may first play this from your hand.
I think this price is about right. Not a game changer, but it can be used for good effect.
Aqua Vitae (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20815.msg871344#msg871344) by The Alchemist
(https://imgur.com/xsCEP4w.png)
This seems strong. Even a single copper turns this into a market. 2 coppers make this better than a grand market. That's just my feeling.
Burial Mound (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20815.msg871353#msg871353) by faust
(https://i.imgur.com/EmBmWID.png)
This card will usually have an upper limit on how much it can be worth (5vp). In most games it will probably be worth less (if some of the kingdom cards are non-actions, or not all kingdom cards are trashed). Considering how much it will be worth and how much effort you have to put in to making it worth vp, it seems like I would normally skip on it, even with the benfit of replaying actions.
Foreign Market (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20815.msg871471#msg871471) by spheremonk
(https://abload.de/img/foreignmarketcontestq5ky0.png)
I like black market, but this rubs me the wrong way. First player will have a huge advantage if there's a coveted card to get. At least with black market you always have a chance of getting something worthwhile. And very quickly there won't be anything worth getting on the Foreign Market mat which will makes this card a terminal silver. If I get this to race to get a certain card and lose, it will be a huge setback. Besides, I think this makes AP more common since I'm looking at buying 12+10 different cards than just BM's 3+10.
Pillager (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20815.msg871475#msg871475) by Shael
(https://www.zupimages.net/up/21/17/v9d7.png)
Similar to coven in a way. The reaction will most likely be triggered on provinces bc there aren't a lot of cards that are more than $6. I'd like it if it was cheaper. $6 just seems way too much for this. Compare this to cultist (only $5) which can quickly overun your opponents deck (rather thn exiling ruins) and get you draw.
Home Guard/ Cover of Darkness  (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20815.msg871486#msg871486) by Mahowrath
(https://i.imgur.com/uZcfdTP.png)(https://i.imgur.com/yrpe1F6.png)
Cover of darkness seems a bit cheap for what it's doing (considering you can get $1 for all your unplayed cards). Home guard seems ok, but I don't think I'd ever buy more than one or two so I wonder if you'd ever get down to CoD. Irregardless of all this, I fail to see how this abides by the rules of the contest. I said that the start of your turn is considered your action phase for the purpose of this contest. The only way to play an unusually timed card is with an attack-treasure or an attack-night card (which is not that common). I'm sorry I didn't disqualify this before, but it was at the end of the contest, and I just noticed this while judging.
Prosperctor (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20815.msg871487#msg871487) by fika monster
(https://i.imgur.com/d6n3tYy.png)
This seems too weak. If I use this on a copper, this is basically +$2 and give everyone a copper, which is weak compared to other junkers. If I use it on other treasures, I'm helping my opponents.
Midas's Touch (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20815.msg871496#msg871496) by anordinaryman
(https://files.coding4.coffee/selif/h2xjxajf.png)
I think this a slightly better version of mxdata's mad hatter. You took care of the province problem, and I think $4 is probably a little more balanced even if the action token isn't used on the rare token it would be helpful. Very good.
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #117: In the wrong place at the wrong time
Post by: Mahowrath on June 14, 2021, 08:15:50 am
Pretty sure my entry is too late, but I just had an idea that may or may not qualify, so at least for the sake of sharing:

(https://i.imgur.com/uZcfdTP.png)(https://i.imgur.com/yrpe1F6.png)]
Quote
Home Guard:
Action - Attack - Reserve: $3
If it's the start of your turn, +$2 and each other player discards down to 3 cards in hand.

Otherwise, put this on your Tavern mat.
-
At the start of your turn, you may call this to play it.
Quote
Cover of Darkness:
Night - Duration: $4
At the end of this turn, +1 Card, then set aside any number of cards from your hand face down under this.
At the start of your next turn, you may play any Attacks set aside with this, and discard the rest for +$1 each.


5/5 split pile: Reserve Attack, and a night card with an end of turn effect. playing Action or Night Attack cards at the start of your turn should hopefully be unusual enough to qualify.

Home Guard is a cheap Militia you can only use at most every other turn. This should hopefully be popular enough to justify acquiring Cover of Darkness as a cheap duration gold when you would otherwise be attacked, with a chance of playing home guard in 1 turn, or gaining actions off your Attacks in general.
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #117: In the wrong place at the wrong time
Post by: fika monster on June 14, 2021, 08:17:32 am
last minute entry

(https://i.imgur.com/d6n3tYy.png)
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #117: In the wrong place at the wrong time
Post by: Gubump on June 14, 2021, 11:11:59 am
Pretty sure my entry is too late, but I just had an idea that may or may not qualify, so at least for the sake of sharing:

(https://i.imgur.com/uZcfdTP.png)(https://i.imgur.com/yrpe1F6.png)]
Quote
Home Guard:
Action - Attack - Reserve: $3
If it's the start of your turn, +$2 and each other player discards down to 3 cards in hand.

Otherwise, put this on your Tavern mat.
-
At the start of your turn, you may call this to play it.
Quote
Cover of Darkness:
Night - Duration: $4
At the end of this turn, +1 Card, then set aside any number of cards from your hand face down under this.
At the start of your next turn, you may play any Attacks set aside with this, and discard the rest for +$1 each.


5/5 split pile: Reserve Attack, and a night card with an end of turn effect. playing Action or Night Attack cards at the start of your turn should hopefully be unusual enough to qualify.

Home Guard is a cheap Militia you can only use at most every other turn. This should hopefully be popular enough to justify acquiring Cover of Darkness as a cheap duration gold when you would otherwise be attacked, with a chance of playing home guard in 1 turn, or gaining actions off your Attacks in general.

For Cover of Darkness, if I set aside multiple Attacks, can I play just some of those Attacks and discard the rest for +(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/f/f7/Coin1.png/16px-Coin1.png) apiece? If so, I think it should say "any or all" to make it clearer.
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #117: In the wrong place at the wrong time
Post by: anordinaryman on June 14, 2021, 12:26:49 pm
Last minute entry!!!

(https://files.coding4.coffee/selif/h2xjxajf.png)

Quote
Midas's Touch | Event | $4
Move your Treasure Token to a Supply Pile with a top facing card costing up to $6. (During your turns, cards from that Pile are also Treasures.)

Capitalism for anything. You can even move this to an Estate -- estates are now treasures on your turn. They don't do anything on play, but you can trash them with loan or counterfeit now. There's lots of crazy combos and fun stuff to do with this, but you can only have it on one Supply pile at a time. The up to $6 makes it harder for Hero to gain Provinces, though with cost-reducers it is still possible. Put it on a valuable card and now your Bandit can trash those cards from your opponent. This card can get a little crazy, but that's the point. It got out of control for King Midas, as well.
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #117: In the wrong place at the wrong time
Post by: naitchman on June 14, 2021, 09:01:08 pm
Submissions are Closed!
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #117: In the wrong place at the wrong time
Post by: naitchman on June 15, 2021, 03:18:16 am
Results came earlier than expected. Comments have been added to my previous post. Comments are just my opinion and could be wrong. I'm just going based on my gut.

I just want to say, there were a lot of good cards this week. Kudos to everyone who participated.

Results:

Honorable Mentions:
Nightmare by grep
Umarell by spineflu
Misfit by NoMoreFun
Night Preacher by Xen3k
Respite/ Nepenthe by emtzalex
Midas's Touch by anordinaryman

Runner Up:
Monarchy by X-tra

Winner:
Weaponsmith by MochaMoko
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #117: In the wrong place at the wrong time
Post by: fika monster on June 15, 2021, 07:54:44 am
i think your judging was good naitchman.
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #117: In the wrong place at the wrong time
Post by: naitchman on June 15, 2021, 08:35:24 am
i think your judging was good naitchman.

That's good to know. I wasn't certain because I wrote it at 2am.
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #117: In the wrong place at the wrong time
Post by: spineflu on June 16, 2021, 02:54:12 pm
topic=20815.msg871286#msg871286]Umarell[/url] by spineflu
(https://trello-attachments.s3.amazonaws.com/5d34c84e360a440d0d16278b/60bed8255477980f03ea0d95/34859601f715cc7c17b09c49a92c2ce2/image.png)
The card is pretty straightforward. I like the interaction. If you can't pull it off, it's somewhat weak for a $5. If you can, it's pretty good. I like how just the presence of this card in my opponents deck might make me careful in keeping my handsize low (playing actions in the right order).

Do you think this is still weak when compared to things like Outpost and Tactician? That's sort of where I came from when designing this - "what if you could stack the 'take another / take a double' turn cards?"
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #117: In the wrong place at the wrong time
Post by: The Alchemist on June 17, 2021, 11:43:00 pm
Aqua Vitae:
This seems strong. Even a single copper turns this into a market. 2 coppers make this better than a grand market. That's just my feeling.

I think you've misjudged its power level. It's not a market or grand market because neither of those are stop cards.  This combined with a single copper is equal in power to a card that said "+1 action, +1 buy, +$1", because after playing a cantrip and copper from your hand, your hand is one card smaller. That means all this does is turn a single copper or potion into a silver with buy, and turn 3 coppers/potions into 3 silvers +buys, because its +$3 spread across 3 stop cards. All it is is a coppersmith effect that also gives a buy and works on potions, but is limited to only 3, so no where near the strength of market or grand market. In fact from playing with it, its still pretty weak.