Dominion Strategy Forum

Dominion => Variants and Fan Cards => Topic started by: emtzalex on June 04, 2021, 01:55:20 pm

Title: Fan Card Mechanics Week 12: High on your own Supplier
Post by: emtzalex on June 04, 2021, 01:55:20 pm
For Week 12, I am introducing a new card type that I have experiment with a bit, Suppliers. Suppliers are cards that, once gained and played, offer the player one or more additional options during their Buy phase. Generally, Suppliers will come in a 10 card Kingdom piles in the Supply like any other Kingdom card.

How they work:

As with Events, the possibilities are fairly extensive. However, an important design factor is that Supplier cards have some strong built-in disadvantages. The most obvious analogy is an Event, but Suppliers are weaker than Events in three important ways.
Therefore, the price point of any Event will almost always be much too high to be the price of a purchase for a Supplier with the same effect. This doesn't mean that Suppliers are inherently bad cards, but the value proposition of what you get for what you spend should reflect these factors.

Here are a few examples:

(https://i.imgur.com/KWLfPAYh.png)     (https://i.imgur.com/T1GcICNh.png)     (https://i.imgur.com/U6Bf11yh.png)     (https://i.imgur.com/2xI3zhlh.png)
(I have designed several more, but I don't want to crowd out too many ideas; and yes, I stole the official art for Summoner)

The call of the contest is pretty straightforward. Design at least one card that has the Supplier type. The card(s) may have other types as well, and you can design non-Supplier cards (or card-shaped objects, including Artifacts or States) to support the design. You can use other mechanics, either official or fan-created. If you would like to generate a card image, the Custom Color is R:1.0 G:1.0 B:0.76, or you can use this template (https://shardofhonor.github.io/dominion-card-generator/index.html?title=&description=&type=Supplier&credit=&creator=&price=&preview=&type2=&color2split=1&boldkeys=&picture-x=0&picture-y=0&picture-zoom=1&picture=&expansion=&custom-icon=&c0.0=1&c0.1=1&c0.2=0.76&color1=0&size=0) in Shard of Honor's New Fork of the Violet CLM's Card Image Generator.

The main judging criteria is, as always, would I be excited to see in a Kingdom? Important factors for me are:

The deadline for submissions will be 18:00 UTC / 2:00 p.m. Eastern/Forum time on Friday, June 11, 2021. I hope you enjoy designing these. Please let me know if you have any questions.
Title: Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 12: High on your own Supplier
Post by: The Alchemist on June 04, 2021, 02:46:44 pm
I think the border color is too similar to Treasures. Especially since on the client the color is made lighter, it makes it almost indistinguishable. I think I new color would be best.
Title: Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 12: High on your own Supplier
Post by: emtzalex on June 04, 2021, 03:18:21 pm
I think the border color is too similar to Treasures. Especially since on the client the color is made lighter, it makes it almost indistinguishable. I think I new color would be best.

There are not a ton of color choices that are unused, so the choices are limited. I wanted a pale yellow, but if you go too much lighter it starts to look like an Action card. Also, given that these are (usually) played at the same time as Treasure cards, I'm not sure that it is super important that they are visually distinguishable from the existing cards.

That being said, if someone wants to suggest a different color, I am open to it.
Title: Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 12: High on your own Supplier
Post by: The Alchemist on June 04, 2021, 03:56:56 pm
I think its exactly because they are so similar to Treasure cards that they need to be visually distinct. Alternatively, since they are cards that can be played in the Buy phase, why not make them dual-type? I can see the normal Treasure color working, but with "Treasure-Supplier" in the footer, similar to how "Action-Attacks" are still just the default Action white. The Treasure type gives it the ability to be played in the Buy phase, and the Supplier type gives it the ability to be played after buying a card. I think this would be the best workaround.
Title: Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 12: High on your own Supplier
Post by: emtzalex on June 04, 2021, 04:25:54 pm
I think its exactly because they are so similar to Treasure cards that they need to be visually distinct. Alternatively, since they are cards that can be played in the Buy phase, why not make them dual-type? I can see the normal Treasure color working, but with "Treasure-Supplier" in the footer, similar to how "Action-Attacks" are still just the default Action white. The Treasure type gives it the ability to be played in the Buy phase, and the Supplier type gives it the ability to be played after buying a card. I think this would be the best workaround.

My concern with making these a subtype of Treasures is that there are already numerous cards that interact with Treasures in a way that doesn't make sense in the context of Suppliers, especially thematically. How do you Counterfeit a Miner? How do you duplicate a Ranch with a Mint? Cards also operate with the presumption that Treasures will generally be giving you something useful for a Buy; Suppliers generally won't (so something like Venture plays differently, and can get messed up by them).
Title: Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 12: High on your own Supplier
Post by: Timinou on June 04, 2021, 04:35:58 pm
I agree with the suggestion of making these dual-type cards, unless there is a compelling reason to have an entirely separate card type.  It could allow for some cool (or unintended) interactions with Storyteller, Black Market, Crown, etc.

I'm also curious about the reasoning behind this:
Quote
Once a player plays a Supplier, they may buy the purchase(s) as many times as that player has the Buys and resources to afford to do (subject to text on the card limiting such buying).

Unless you're playing a slog, it doesn't really provide much incentive for having more than one copy of a Supplier in your deck.  It also raises the question of why the card should be a Supplier rather than an Event.  The obvious difference is that your Supplier is not guaranteed to be available to you during every buy phase, so perhaps that needs to be taken into consideration when designing a Supplier.

For example, I don't think Ranch really adds much over Ride to justify having an entirely new card type. 

You already mentioned that the value proposition of Suppliers needs to be much better relative to an Event, given that Suppliers could really end up being a junk card in your deck. Of the examples you posted, Miners and Ranch look quite weak. 
Title: Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 12: High on your own Supplier
Post by: The Alchemist on June 04, 2021, 04:44:14 pm
My concern with making these a subtype of Treasures is that there are already numerous cards that interact with Treasures in a way that doesn't make sense in the context of Suppliers, especially thematically. How do you Counterfeit a Miner? How do you duplicate a Ranch with a Mint? Cards also operate with the presumption that Treasures will generally be giving you something useful for a Buy; Suppliers generally won't (so something like Venture plays differently, and can get messed up by them).

I don't see a concern with any of the examples you just listed. We have the do-nothing rule, so it just means most of the time nothing happens. But sometimes they do, for example with the ones that provide coin (and in fact, I believe every Supplier card should give some resource, otherwise I'm not going to waste a card slot in my deck for a card that just gives me more options of stuff to buy. I already have 10 options in the kingdom.) Your ventures example even shows this. If you don't want the supplier card enough that drawing it with ventures is considered a "mess up", then clearly you don't want it enough to have it in your deck at all.
Title: Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 12: High on your own Supplier
Post by: The Alchemist on June 04, 2021, 05:05:30 pm
In fact, I'm pretty sure all your Supplier cards could be implemented as Night-Treasures that simply stated "You may spend $x to..."

None of them really make use of the mechanic of being able to play after buying. The times where that's useful are when you want to get a bought card either into play or into your next hand, or after playing Gamble/Toil and drawing into them.
Title: Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 12: High on your own Supplier
Post by: emtzalex on June 04, 2021, 05:07:44 pm
I agree with the suggestion of making these dual-type cards, unless there is a compelling reason to have an entirely separate card type.  It could allow for some cool (or unintended) interactions with Storyteller, Black Market, Crown, etc.

In my opinion, those interaction are the compelling reason to have an entirely separate type (not so much with those cards, but more with the likes of Counterfeit, Mine, Taxman, etc.).


I'm also curious about the reasoning behind this:
Quote
Once a player plays a Supplier, they may buy the purchase(s) as many times as that player has the Buys and resources to afford to do (subject to text on the card limiting such buying).

I think that it allows more design possibilities this way. It opens up the possibility of inexpensive purchases that give +1 Buy and therefore can be repeated as many times as a player can afford. If you wanted a design that requires the player to play a copy of the Supplier for each purchase, you could add "Once per turn" to it.


Unless you're playing a slog, it does really provide much incentive for having more than one copy of a Supplier in your deck.

That will probably be true of many Suppliers, but it is also true of Moneylender. (That said, trying to design a card that gives players a reason to buy more than one copy could be an interesting approach).


It also raises the question of why the card should be a Supplier rather than an Event.  The obvious difference is that your Supplier is not guaranteed to be available to you during every buy phase, so perhaps that needs to be taken into consideration when designing a Supplier.

That is a very good question/suggestion. Definitely something to consider when designing a card.


For example, I don't think Ranch really adds much over Ride to justify having an entirely new card type. 

You already mentioned that the value proposition of Suppliers needs to be much better relative to an Event, given that Suppliers could really end up being a junk card in your deck. Of the examples you posted, Miners and Ranch look quite weak.

I said these were examples, I didn't say they were good examples. I mostly wanted to show people see what the cards looked like, as I felt the explanation might not have done that in the most clear way. I agree that both of those cards are rather weak (although I think Miners could be useful on some boards). I put Ranch out there as a suggestion of how one might turn an Event into a Supplier (but I agree that it is not enough of an improvement).
Title: Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 12: High on your own Supplier
Post by: emtzalex on June 04, 2021, 05:13:13 pm
In fact, I'm pretty sure all your Supplier cards could be implemented as Night-Treasures that simply stated "You may spend $x to..."

None of them really make use of the mechanic of being able to play after buying. The times where that's useful are when you want to get a bought card either into play or into your next hand, or after playing Gamble/Toil and drawing into them.

Again, I didn't put most of my cards out there because I wanted to allow for the most creative space possible. It's a design contest, you all are supposed to figure out designs that are worth buying, worth having in your deck, and that makes sense for them to be cards rather than Events. If you don't want to do that, you don't have to submit an entry.
Title: Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 12: High on your own Supplier
Post by: The Alchemist on June 04, 2021, 06:05:34 pm
Well, here is my first attempt at a design. I still think the dual type ought to be necessary to further clarify that it is played in the Buy phase.

(https://imgur.com/MIYHaFe.png)

In my implementation, taking an effect from a Supplier does not use up a buy, as far too often you would just want to include "+1 Buy" for the effect to be worth it.
Title: Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 12: High on your own Supplier
Post by: Gubump on June 05, 2021, 12:24:31 am
Well, here is my first attempt at a design. I still think the dual type ought to be necessary to further clarify that it is played in the Buy phase.

(https://imgur.com/MIYHaFe.png)

In my implementation, taking an effect from a Supplier does not use up a buy, as far too often you would just want to include "+1 Buy" for the effect to be worth it.

This should probably be limited to Actions and Treasures (the playing part) so that you can't play your Victory cards. Also, the top corners should say (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/3/3d/Coin2.png/16px-Coin2.png) instead of $? since it's always worth (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/3/3d/Coin2.png/16px-Coin2.png).
Title: Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 12: High on your own Supplier
Post by: Aquila on June 05, 2021, 04:39:52 am
Revised entry:
(https://trello-attachments.s3.amazonaws.com/5f5a8e8e7ed38b522f25641a/60ba8b7291517b6931b6521a/e470f4c9b1ca6e8717f08942c89fd710/Caravaneer_(1).png)

Quote
Caravaneer - Supplier Gathering, $4 cost.
Exile a non-Victory card from the Supply to put 1VP on the Caravaneer pile.
$4: take all the VP on the Caravaneer pile.

Edit: reduced cost to $4, moved Exile to Supplier mode play and removed Action type, fixed the VP purchase price at $4 (rather than $3 + $1 per card you have in Exile).
Title: Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 12: High on your own Supplier
Post by: grrgrrgrr on June 05, 2021, 09:27:58 am
I agree with the suggestion of making these dual-type cards, unless there is a compelling reason to have an entirely separate card type.  It could allow for some cool (or unintended) interactions with Storyteller, Black Market, Crown, etc.

I think this mechanic is interesting, but I echo this sentiment as well. In fact, I would go for the following approach.
Title: Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 12: High on your own Supplier
Post by: grrgrrgrr on June 05, 2021, 01:49:48 pm
Anyway, here is my submission.
(https://i.imgur.com/b5onV9k.png)
Title: Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 12: High on your own Supplier
Post by: fika monster on June 06, 2021, 12:31:15 pm
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20812.msg871269#msg871269 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20812.msg871269#msg871269)


Card idea: What if "return to your phase" was a card all on its own?
(https://i.imgur.com/EeJtCXS.png)

Put "night" on it, so that it can become very exciting in night games. I made it say "return to any phase" so that if there is, say, a Dawn card in the kingdom, you could circumvent the dawn cards weakness. At a cost!

Potential Issues:
[li] [/li][/list]
Title: Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 12: High on your own Supplier
Post by: naitchman on June 06, 2021, 05:21:36 pm
I agree with the suggestion of making these dual-type cards, unless there is a compelling reason to have an entirely separate card type.  It could allow for some cool (or unintended) interactions with Storyteller, Black Market, Crown, etc.

I think this mechanic is interesting, but I echo this sentiment as well. In fact, I would go for the following approach.
  • The Supplier is a subtype of any type of card that can be in play during the Buy phase. The Supplier type has no say in when the card is playable. (so a Night/Duration/Supplier card would be possible if you are bold)
  • The purchasing options are available during your buy phase if and only if the card is in play. (so for a Night/Duration/Supplier card, the options are available next turn)

I second this.
Title: Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 12: High on your own Supplier
Post by: mxdata on June 06, 2021, 06:58:43 pm
Card idea: What if "return to your phase" was a card all on its own?
(https://i.imgur.com/EeJtCXS.png)

Put "night" on it, so that it can become very exciting in night games. I made it say "return to any phase" so that if there is, say, a Dawn card in the kingdom, you could circumvent the dawn cards weakness. At a cost!

Potential Issues:
  • "return to X phase" costs too much or little?
  • "+2 Actions" for 2$ is too good? Since you don't spend an action on Benevolent Goblin, its effectively a +3 Actions for 2$
  • In kingdoms without workshops, might it be boring?
[li] [/li][/list]

I'm a bit confused how this would work.  Are you able to choose more than one option, paying $2 for each option chosen?
Title: Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 12: High on your own Supplier
Post by: emtzalex on June 06, 2021, 08:07:20 pm
So this fits the rules?

(https://trello-attachments.s3.amazonaws.com/5f5a8e8e7ed38b522f25641a/60ba8b7291517b6931b6521a/b277fc618ff8b84c0801ed261817b5e6/Caravaneer.png)
Quote
Caravaneer - Action Supplier Gathering, $5 cost.
If it's your Action phase, +1 Action and Exile a non-Victory card from the Supply to put 1VP here.
Otherwise, for $3 + $1 per card you have in Exile: take all the VP here.
Like Crown, either the Action phase play or Buy phase Supplier play. The Supplier cost varies, and a purchase uses a Buy. The $5 cost or Supplier cost might be off, but here's the premise at least.

Yes.
Title: Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 12: High on your own Supplier
Post by: emtzalex on June 06, 2021, 08:15:26 pm
I agree with the suggestion of making these dual-type cards, unless there is a compelling reason to have an entirely separate card type.  It could allow for some cool (or unintended) interactions with Storyteller, Black Market, Crown, etc.

I think this mechanic is interesting, but I echo this sentiment as well. In fact, I would go for the following approach.
  • The Supplier is a subtype of any type of card that can be in play during the Buy phase. The Supplier type has no say in when the card is playable. (so a Night/Duration/Supplier card would be possible if you are bold)
  • The purchasing options are available during your buy phase if and only if the card is in play. (so for a Night/Duration/Supplier card, the options are available next turn)

This is another way that Suppliers could be implemented, but I don't see a really good reason for it. I don't understand the problem with a new type of card that is played in a fairly straightforward way. (I put all of the complex rules interactions in the description because the nature of this contest is that those end up being implicated, but the vast majority of the time the cards will simply be played during a player's Buy phase). If the "can-play-it-after-a-buy" element is that confusing/challenging, I would rather drop that then really significantly rework the cards as this suggests.

By requiring them to be dual-type, you are needlessly complicating and adding potentially unwanted interactions to the simplest of these cards (i.e. the ones that just offer something for sale). All of those interactions are still possible where Supplier is its own type (by making it a dual-type card) without forcing the complexity on the cards that don't need it.

I'm not really understanding what is so challenging about the mechanic as I laid it out. If it's really the color's similarity to Treasure, I'll find a different color. That being said, if you want to submit a card with a modified version of the rules, you can feel free to do so, and I'll judge them in that context (but your submission post needs to expressly state this; otherwise, I will presume you are using my rules as set out in the original post).
Title: Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 12: High on your own Supplier
Post by: Timinou on June 06, 2021, 11:32:31 pm
I was thinking about whether a card like this is overly complicated as a Treasure-Supplier rather than just a Supplier:

(https://i.imgur.com/WXKVJAh.png)

It could definitely work as a single-type Supplier card, but I think it's more intuitive as a dual-type card and I don't think there are any crazy or unwanted interactions.

Fare is like Expedition in card form.  With Expedition, you essentially pay $1.5 per extra card, so you get a better deal with Fare if you have sufficient Buys.  To some extent, you could even think of it as a more expensive version of Supplies.

I'm not sure if this will be my final submission but just wanted to post it for discussion.
Title: Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 12: High on your own Supplier
Post by: The Alchemist on June 06, 2021, 11:38:19 pm

By requiring them to be dual-type, you are needlessly complicating and adding potentially unwanted interactions to the simplest of these cards (i.e. the ones that just offer something for sale). All of those interactions are still possible where Supplier is its own type (by making it a dual-type card) without forcing the complexity on the cards that don't need it.


I also agree with the two points laid out by Timinou. Having an entirely new card type with new color and all is far more needlessly complicated than a dual-type. Its the reason why Looters is simply a secondary type instead of an entirely new category of cards. Nights were pretty simple as far as a new type category goes, and yet Nocturne is widely considered the most complicated expansion, partly due to that mechanic. There's no reason why the simplest of the cards you mentioned can't be simply dual-typed treasures, that is a far simpler approach than the rules laid out in the op, and it seems that sentiment is agreed upon unanimously.
Title: Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 12: High on your own Supplier
Post by: Timinou on June 06, 2021, 11:44:11 pm
On the other hand, I could see a card like this working better as a single-type card:

NOT A SUBMISSION
(https://i.imgur.com/Yilpi4Y.png)

This exploits the ability of a Supplier to be played after you have already bought cards in the Buy phase. 
Title: Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 12: High on your own Supplier
Post by: The Alchemist on June 06, 2021, 11:53:18 pm
This is incidental to the overall contest and discussion, but Miners and Ranch are incredibly weak. Here is a card that almost exactly replicates the ability of Miners, while being strictly stronger than it, yet it is still quite weak:

(https://imgur.com/UBQv1s8.png)

This lets you get 2 silvers for $4, a silver and gold for $7, and 2 golds for $10, without being nearly as restrictive as Mine.

And Ranch could just as well have stated "You may pay $2 to have this card be a cantrip later, or $4 to be a lab". It goes without saying that a one-shot cantrip that costs $2 is worthless, and one-shot lab for $4 is significantly weaker than both encampment and experiment.
Title: Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 12: High on your own Supplier
Post by: herw on June 07, 2021, 12:12:54 am
not a submission

There is no need for a new type of "supplier".
In March 2021 I developed the mechanics of money bags (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20716.0). The idea behind it is that you can play treasure cards (!) for additional instructions at any stage of a turn. This has proven itself in practice.
The advantage is also that the mechanics are so easy to understand (especially by inexperienced players) that you do not need a new card type.

three examples

 (https://i.imgur.com/cYxDYGy.png) (https://i.imgur.com/QHli9mx.png) (https://i.imgur.com/iPXZTFd.png)

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)
Title: Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 12: High on your own Supplier
Post by: emtzalex on June 07, 2021, 12:45:20 am

By requiring them to be dual-type, you are needlessly complicating and adding potentially unwanted interactions to the simplest of these cards (i.e. the ones that just offer something for sale). All of those interactions are still possible where Supplier is its own type (by making it a dual-type card) without forcing the complexity on the cards that don't need it.


I also agree with the two points laid out by Timinou. Having an entirely new card type with new color and all is far more needlessly complicated than a dual-type. Its the reason why Looters is simply a secondary type instead of an entirely new category of cards. Nights were pretty simple as far as a new type category goes, and yet Nocturne is widely considered the most complicated expansion, partly due to that mechanic. There's no reason why the simplest of the cards you mentioned can't be simply dual-typed treasures, that is a far simpler approach than the rules laid out in the op, and it seems that sentiment is agreed upon unanimously.

What makes a new type more complicated? You still have not explained that. How are dual types cards less complicated? Which of the instructions in my original post wouldn't need to be there using the dual type? As far as I can tell, all of those directions would still be necessary.

I've explained multiple times that with many Supplier cards, if they were Treasures it would create many interaction with existing cards that are both thematically illogical and practically undesirable. That's not universally true, and I think your Bribe or Timinou's Fare make sense as Treasure cards. But it will never make sense that a Bandit steals a Summoner or a group of Cossacks.
 
Looters are all Action cards, each of which only does things existing Action cards do (+$, +Cards, junking, trashing, gaining, etc.). It would make no sense for them not to be Action cards. The only reason they have a separate type is to indicate to players to add a Ruins pile.

If Nocturne is complicated, it has at least as much to do with introducing Boons, Hexes, Heirlooms, Spirits, and Zombies all at once than it does adding Night cards.

The sentiment isn't unanimous, since I still disagree with it, and I have yet to hear an actually explanation of why a new type is more complicated than a dual type.

This is incidental to the overall contest and discussion, but Miners and Ranch are incredibly weak. Here is a card that almost exactly replicates the ability of Miners, while being strictly stronger than it, yet it is still quite weak:

(https://imgur.com/UBQv1s8.png)

This lets you get 2 silvers for $4, a silver and gold for $7, and 2 golds for $10, without being nearly as restrictive as Mine.

And Ranch could just as well have stated "You may pay $2 to have this card be a cantrip later, or $4 to be a lab". It goes without saying that a one-shot cantrip that costs $2 is worthless, and one-shot lab for $4 is significantly weaker than both encampment and experiment.

Timinou previously made the same point, and I previously addressed it.

For example, I don't think Ranch really adds much over Ride to justify having an entirely new card type. 

You already mentioned that the value proposition of Suppliers needs to be much better relative to an Event, given that Suppliers could really end up being a junk card in your deck. Of the examples you posted, Miners and Ranch look quite weak.

I said these were examples, I didn't say they were good examples. I mostly wanted to show people see what the cards looked like, as I felt the explanation might not have done that in the most clear way. I agree that both of those cards are rather weak (although I think Miners could be useful on some boards). I put Ranch out there as a suggestion of how one might turn an Event into a Supplier (but I agree that it is not enough of an improvement).

Again, I put those out there to show how the cards worked mechanically.
Title: Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 12: High on your own Supplier
Post by: emtzalex on June 07, 2021, 01:10:21 am
not a submission

There is no need for a new type of "supplier".
In March 2021 I developed the mechanics of money bags (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20716.0). The idea behind it is that you can play treasure cards (!) for additional instructions at any stage of a turn. This has proven itself in practice.
The advantage is also that the mechanics are so easy to understand (especially by inexperienced players) that you do not need a new card type.

three examples

 (https://i.imgur.com/cYxDYGy.png) (https://i.imgur.com/QHli9mx.png) (https://i.imgur.com/iPXZTFd.png)

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)

I saw your original money bags post, and I do not think it is that easy to understand. You may not have designed a new card type, but you designed an entirely new set of symbols, and a new place for cards to be (under Moneybags, with it's own set of rules).

The cards also work differently: yours can only be paid with basic Treasure cards, while the prices for Suppliers can be paid with coins from any source. They also mostly operate like Action cards, giving some effect with an option for an additional effect if the Treasure cards are put under them, making them more like Stables than an Event.

Title: Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 12: High on your own Supplier
Post by: grrgrrgrr on June 07, 2021, 02:37:05 am
I agree with the suggestion of making these dual-type cards, unless there is a compelling reason to have an entirely separate card type.  It could allow for some cool (or unintended) interactions with Storyteller, Black Market, Crown, etc.

I think this mechanic is interesting, but I echo this sentiment as well. In fact, I would go for the following approach.
  • The Supplier is a subtype of any type of card that can be in play during the Buy phase. The Supplier type has no say in when the card is playable. (so a Night/Duration/Supplier card would be possible if you are bold)
  • The purchasing options are available during your buy phase if and only if the card is in play. (so for a Night/Duration/Supplier card, the options are available next turn)

This is another way that Suppliers could be implemented, but I don't see a really good reason for it. I don't understand the problem with a new type of card that is played in a fairly straightforward way. (I put all of the complex rules interactions in the description because the nature of this contest is that those end up being implicated, but the vast majority of the time the cards will simply be played during a player's Buy phase). If the "can-play-it-after-a-buy" element is that confusing/challenging, I would rather drop that then really significantly rework the cards as this suggests.

The thing is, Dominion has four primary types: Action Cards, Treasures, Victory Cards and Curses (the latter of which is only used by one card). Virtually all already existing cards are designed around this principle. Violating this by introducing a new primary type should not be done without a very good reason. You are introducing a type of cards that can be played at the same moments as Treasure Cards: during the Buy phase. The only differentiator is that Supplier cards can be played after buying. Which is totally redundant here!

Quote
By requiring them to be dual-type, you are needlessly complicating and adding potentially unwanted interactions to the simplest of these cards (i.e. the ones that just offer something for sale). All of those interactions are still possible where Supplier is its own type (by making it a dual-type card) without forcing the complexity on the cards that don't need it.

You got it backwards. These "complicating" interactions are part of Dominion! And by making a card having a new primary type also creates new complications. The card is not playable through Gamble. You can't Throne it, not even with Crown (and no, that is not preferable). Ironworks/Groom don't come with anything. And if you don't want your examples to be Treasures, make them Actions!

Speaking of unwanted interactions, the Night Card/Haunted Woods interaction is far worse than anything you mentioned here, yet it has been greenlighted.

Quote
I'm not really understanding what is so challenging about the mechanic as I laid it out. If it's really the color's similarity to Treasure, I'll find a different color. That being said, if you want to submit a card with a modified version of the rules, you can feel free to do so, and I'll judge them in that context (but your submission post needs to expressly state this; otherwise, I will presume you are using my rules as set out in the original post).
Do what you think is best I guess. We are only giving feedback. You are narrowing down design space quite significantly as Supply cards are always inherently playable through the Buy phase.
Title: Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 12: High on your own Supplier
Post by: Timinou on June 07, 2021, 08:52:21 am
By the way, couldn't any of the four examples posted by emtzalex or the card I posted earlier (Reproduce) work as Night cards?  Like if you have unspent money during your Buy phase, do you lose it at the end of your Buy phase or at the end of your turn?

I'm trying to play devil's advocate to see if there is a design space worth exploring for single-type Supplier cards, but I think it's quite limited insofar as you could accomplish the same effect with a Night card if you are able to use unspent money during the Night phase.
Title: Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 12: High on your own Supplier
Post by: Timinou on June 07, 2021, 10:10:32 am
(https://trello-attachments.s3.amazonaws.com/5f5a8e8e7ed38b522f25641a/60ba8b7291517b6931b6521a/b277fc618ff8b84c0801ed261817b5e6/Caravaneer.png)
Quote
Caravaneer - Action Supplier Gathering, $5 cost.
If it's your Action phase, +1 Action and Exile a non-Victory card from the Supply to put 1VP here.
Otherwise, for $3 + $1 per card you have in Exile: take all the VP here.
Like Crown, either the Action phase play or Buy phase Supplier play. The Supplier cost varies, and a purchase uses a Buy. The $5 cost or Supplier cost might be off, but here's the premise at least.

I like this card and I'm a sucker for alt-VP; however, I agree that the $5 cost might be off, given that you would need to spend a Buy as well as $3 + $1 card you have in Exile to score points with this.  It could be tricky to play with in Kingdoms without +Buy.
Title: Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 12: High on your own Supplier
Post by: spineflu on June 07, 2021, 10:43:03 am
i think the mechanic's fine, we already threw the ABC mnemonic out when nocturne was released. Like there's other ways to do this too but it's like the difference between equip and enchanting a creature in mtg - semantic differences for essentially the same thing.

(https://trello-attachments.s3.amazonaws.com/6019de42b869588d9701fbff/60be2f0c3699db47c764d357/8fe442d827225358589b1ff9f2ce8cb7/image.png)
Quote
Salt Merchant • $3 • Supplier
Choose one
$0: +2 Buys

$1: When you gain a card this turn, trash a copy of it from the Supply.

$3: When you gain a card this turn, trash two copies of it from the Supply.

The instructions were unclear whether the purchasable options were exclusive, or whether we could do multiple, so I assumed multiple for an unspecified card and specified on mine for "do a single option".  The individual items costs are pretty low because you'll be working with a thinner hand than normal to use this, and also opportunity cost.
Title: Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 12: High on your own Supplier
Post by: emtzalex on June 07, 2021, 01:53:19 pm
The thing is, Dominion has four primary types: Action Cards, Treasures, Victory Cards and Curses (the latter of which is only used by one card). Virtually all already existing cards are designed around this principle. Violating this by introducing a new primary type should not be done without a very good reason. You are introducing a type of cards that can be played at the same moments as Treasure Cards: during the Buy phase. The only differentiator is that Supplier cards can be played after buying. Which is totally redundant here!

That once was true. But then we got Night cards. And in this very contest, we have had Dawn cards. No one said that there shouldn't be Dawn cards, or that Dawn cards shouldn't work the way Mathdude proposed them; they talked about how best to design cards in the context of the mechanic as it was laid out.


You got it backwards. These "complicating" interactions are part of Dominion! And by making a card having a new primary type also creates new complications. The card is not playable through Gamble. You can't Throne it, not even with Crown (and no, that is not preferable). Ironworks/Groom don't come with anything. And if you don't want your examples to be Treasures, make them Actions!

But every one of those interactions are still available, by making Suppliers a dual-type card, which is permitted.


Do what you think is best I guess. We are only giving feedback. You are narrowing down design space quite significantly as Supply cards are always inherently playable through the Buy phase.

How? Every potential card design available under your suggested rule (Action-Supplier; Treasure-Supplier; Night-Duration-Supplier) is also available under my rule, but mine has additional potential designs available (e.g. plain Suppliers; Supplier-Duration; Supplier-Reaction; Supplier-Victory). Your suggestion limits the design space.


Speaking of unwanted interactions, the Night Card/Haunted Woods interaction is far worse than anything you mentioned here, yet it has been greenlighted.

Doesn't this suggest that your issue with Gamble/Crown/Ironworks/Groom (which is equally applicable to Night cards) is not really an issue (or at least not inconsistent with official card design)?


By the way, couldn't any of the four examples posted by emtzalex or the card I posted earlier (Reproduce) work as Night cards?  Like if you have unspent money during your Buy phase, do you lose it at the end of your Buy phase or at the end of your turn?

I'm trying to play devil's advocate to see if there is a design space worth exploring for single-type Supplier cards, but I think it's quite limited insofar as you could accomplish the same effect with a Night card if you are able to use unspent money during the Night phase.

If they were Night cards you couldn't buy the purchases before you made other Buys. For example, you can use Ranch to lower the price of a Destrier or increase the VP bonus of a Triumph by using it to gain Horses. If you had to wait until your Night phase, that wouldn't work. And, of course, you couldn't play them in time to avoid Haunted Woods (which itself would not be enough of a reason for a new card type).
Title: Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 12: High on your own Supplier
Post by: fika monster on June 07, 2021, 04:43:03 pm
Card idea: What if "return to your phase" was a card all on its own?
(https://i.imgur.com/EeJtCXS.png)

Put "night" on it, so that it can become very exciting in night games. I made it say "return to any phase" so that if there is, say, a Dawn card in the kingdom, you could circumvent the dawn cards weakness. At a cost!

Potential Issues:
  • "return to X phase" costs too much or little?
  • "+2 Actions" for 2$ is too good? Since you don't spend an action on Benevolent Goblin, its effectively a +3 Actions for 2$
  • In kingdoms without workshops, might it be boring?
[li] [/li][/list]

v2: Renamed it to "Elusive helper", increased the cost to 4, and made the extra Actions, Cards and buys cheaper. I hope its clearer that you buy the extra benefits as you buy the Phase ability.

Rule Change (IMO): You can play Suppliers after you buy something in the buy phase, but you can only "buy" the suppliers options when you play it. If you choose not to play it, you cant buy the Suppliers event after you play another card.

(https://i.imgur.com/CW5a5Jt.png)

V3: my current rule changes:
1: When you play a supplier, you unlock the option to buy the event. You can choose to not buy the event *Now*, but when you have bought it, you cant buy it again unless you play another Supplier.
2: Buying supplier event does not cost Buy
(https://i.imgur.com/Pj7k29l.png)
Title: Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 12: High on your own Supplier
Post by: grrgrrgrr on June 07, 2021, 05:08:54 pm
Ok, I don't wanna turn this into a fight. You obviously have made up your mind, and your mechanic is still decent (it is definitely cleaner than just relying on the Night mechanic, especially if you want to add an on-play effect, which you generally should). But I feel I still need to clearify one part.

Do what you think is best I guess. We are only giving feedback. You are narrowing down design space quite significantly as Supply cards are always inherently playable through the Buy phase.

How? Every potential card design available under your suggested rule (Action-Supplier; Treasure-Supplier; Night-Duration-Supplier) is also available under my rule, but mine has additional potential designs available (e.g. plain Suppliers; Supplier-Duration; Supplier-Reaction; Supplier-Victory). Your suggestion limits the design space.

The thing is, no matter what type you add, the card will ALWAYS be playable during the buy phase under your rule. This makes impossible to design a terminal Action/Supplier card that forces you to use an action to get the options. Your Ranch example would make for a decent $5 Action/Supplier card if you added "+3 Cards" as an on-play effect. But when it has to be playable during the Buy phase (nonterminally), it becomes hella busted. 

On the flip side, being a Supplier or a Treasure/Supplier has no intrinsic difference. As such, all type combos you mentioned can be achieved by adding "Treasure" to the typeset in my version. And if you really don't want them to be Treasures, you can also make them Action/Suppliers and make them non-terminal.

Lastly, the Reaction/Supplier is actually possible if you are bold. You can use the "Reaction" part to enable the card being put into play when a specific condition is met. This adds some additional wacky design space, although it should be used with great care.
Title: Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 12: High on your own Supplier
Post by: emtzalex on June 07, 2021, 05:57:13 pm
The thing is, no matter what type you add, the card will ALWAYS be playable during the buy phase under your rule. This makes impossible to design a terminal Action/Supplier card that forces you to use an action to get the options. Your Ranch example would make for a decent $5 Action/Supplier card if you added "+3 Cards" as an on-play effect. But when it has to be playable during the Buy phase (nonterminally), it becomes hella busted. 

Couldn't that version of Ranch just say "If it's your Action phase, +3 Cards."
Title: Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 12: High on your own Supplier
Post by: fika monster on June 08, 2021, 02:14:00 am
For Week 12, I am introducing a new card type that I have experiment with a bit, Suppliers. Suppliers are cards that, once gained and played, offer the player one or more additional options during their Buy phase. Generally, Suppliers will come in a 10 card Kingdom piles in the Supply like any other Kingdom card.
[/li]
[/list]

The deadline for submissions will be 18:00 UTC / 2:00 p.m. Eastern/Forum time on Friday, June 11, 2021. I hope you enjoy designing these. Please let me know if you have any questions.

Question: If you play a supplier A, and then  supplier B, can you after that buy supplier A's effect?
Title: Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 12: High on your own Supplier
Post by: Aquila on June 08, 2021, 04:49:35 am
I revised my entry to this:
(https://trello-attachments.s3.amazonaws.com/5f5a8e8e7ed38b522f25641a/60ba8b7291517b6931b6521a/e470f4c9b1ca6e8717f08942c89fd710/Caravaneer_(1).png)
Pure Supplier seems to fit the contest a bit closer, and removing the choice to Exile or buy the VP effectively cheapens the VP. As does the cost reduction to $4 and price of the VP fixed at $4.

Anyway, here is my submission.
(https://i.imgur.com/b5onV9k.png)
I like this because it follows what I'm sensing is a good way to do a Supplier card, provide multiple buy options that interact with each other. The card is powered up in a balanced way (provided it doesn't become a complete strategy without an appropriate total cost).
Title: Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 12: High on your own Supplier
Post by: Timinou on June 08, 2021, 09:27:01 am
I revised my entry to this:
(https://trello-attachments.s3.amazonaws.com/5f5a8e8e7ed38b522f25641a/60ba8b7291517b6931b6521a/e470f4c9b1ca6e8717f08942c89fd710/Caravaneer_(1).png)
Pure Supplier seems to fit the contest a bit closer, and removing the choice to Exile or buy the VP effectively cheapens the VP. As does the cost reduction to $4 and price of the VP fixed at $4.

I like this version of Caravaneer better than the original one (and I liked that one too!). 

One potential issue could be the potential for this to lead to long games, since you have the option of Exiling Coppers.  For that reason, I wonder if the Exiling should be restricted to Action cards, although I recognize that it would make Caravaneer somewhat weaker.

Title: Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 12: High on your own Supplier
Post by: emtzalex on June 08, 2021, 10:38:25 am
    For Week 12, I am introducing a new card type that I have experiment with a bit, Suppliers. Suppliers are cards that, once gained and played, offer the player one or more additional options during their Buy phase. Generally, Suppliers will come in a 10 card Kingdom piles in the Supply like any other Kingdom card.
    [/li]
    [/list]

    The deadline for submissions will be 18:00 UTC / 2:00 p.m. Eastern/Forum time on Friday, June 11, 2021. I hope you enjoy designing these. Please let me know if you have any questions.

    Question: If you play a supplier A, and then  supplier B, can you after that buy supplier A's effect?

    Yes. Playing a Supplier card is like adding a new Event (or multiple Events, if it has more than one purchase option) to the game, but one that is only available to the player who played the card, and only that turn. Buying the purchases isn't part of resolving the card (as, for example, paying your coins to Storyteller to draw cards is).
    Title: Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 12: High on your own Supplier
    Post by: Xen3k on June 08, 2021, 06:29:08 pm
    (https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51236700126_b4450ec0ff_b.jpg)

    Quote
    Shrewd Collector - $5
    Supplier
    +1 Buy
    $1: Discard a non-Victory card. If it costs...
    $0, trash it to gain a Silver.
    $1 to $4, gain a copy of a non-Victory card you have in play.
    $5 or more, +$6.

    I went with a design that cares about card cost and does not interact well with Victory cards. Kind of a mashup between a trasher, a gainer, and Baron. The fact that Suppliers take up a card slot that could have been a treasure makes pricing things appropriately strange. I hope I got it right, but this may not be a balanced design. Feedback is welcome.

    Edit: Buffed the first two rewards a bit. The gainer ability now can get any non-VP card that is already in play. The trash ability now also gains you Silver. Thought about letting you draw a card or giving more Buys, but didn't really want the different rewards be super synergistic and potentially degenerative. Thanks to grrgrrgrr for the feedback.

    Old Versions
    (https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51234831503_bf44585d00_b.jpg)
    Title: Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 12: High on your own Supplier
    Post by: grrgrrgrr on June 09, 2021, 07:14:21 am
    (https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51234831503_bf44585d00_b.jpg)

    Quote
    Shrewd Collector - $5
    Supplier
    +1 Buy
    $1: Discard a non-Victory card. If it costs...
    $0, trash it.
    $1 to $4, gain a copy of it.
    $5 or more, +$6.

    I went with a design that cares about card cost and does not interact well with Victory cards. Kind of a mashup between a trasher, a gainer, and Baron. The fact that Suppliers take up a card slot that could have been a treasure makes pricing things appropriately strange. I hope I got it right, but this may not be a balanced design. Feedback is welcome.

    This card has potential to be interesting as a payload card if you manage to fill your deck with surplus $5+ costing actions, because a net gain of $5 is nothing to sneeze at (and it is also somewhat decent with Gold). You may wanna beef up the other two bonuses a little, especially the gainer one, as they are pretty weak. For the gainer one, you can also just say "gain a card costing up to $4".
    Title: Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 12: High on your own Supplier
    Post by: emtzalex on June 10, 2021, 02:00:28 pm
    24 HOUR WARNING!!!

    Here is what I believe to be the current list of entries. Please let me know if I have missed yours or if you have updated it:

    Bribe (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20812.msg871184#msg871184) by The Alchemist
    Caravaneer (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20812.msg871196#msg871196) by Aquila
    Trade Agreement (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20812.msg871213#msg871213) by grrgrrgrr
    Elusive Helper (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20812.msg871269#msg871269) by fika monster
    Fare (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20812.msg871240#msg871240) by Timinou
    Salt Merchant (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20812.25) by spineflu
    Shrewd Collector (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20812.25) by Xen3k
    Title: Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 12: High on your own Supplier
    Post by: emtzalex on June 11, 2021, 02:00:58 pm

    Submissions are Closed!!!


    Title: Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 12: High on your own Supplier
    Post by: fika monster on June 11, 2021, 02:02:18 pm

    Submissions are Closed!!!

    uh, I didn't see this until I just posted the updated version of Elusive helper: Can I still use it (v4 that is)?
    Title: Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 12: High on your own Supplier
    Post by: emtzalex on June 11, 2021, 02:11:10 pm

    Submissions are Closed!!!

    uh, I didn't see this until I just posted the updated version of Elusive helper: Can I still use it (v4 that is)?

    That is fine.
    Title: Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 12: High on your own Supplier
    Post by: emtzalex on June 11, 2021, 02:12:52 pm
    It appears that there are 7 entries this week. Please check below and make sure I have the latest version of your card (and that I didn't miss it). I'll edit this post to add judgements by Sunday night (in the United States), and add a separate post with the winner and runner(s) up.


    Fan Card Mechanics Week 12: High on your own Supplier



    (https://imgur.com/kh2wm0J.png)
    Quote from: Bribe
    Bribe -- $5
    Treasure - Supplier
    $2
    $0: Put a card from your
    discard pile onto your deck.
    $2 Play an Action or Treasure
    card from your discard pile.
    Bribe by The Alchemist

    So, based on your final response about your modification of the rules, I think there may be some continued miscommunication about how these cards work. Absent limiting language (e.g. "once per turn"), the player who plays the Supplier can buy each purchase as many times as they are able to pay the cost and spend a Buy. Thus, as Bribe currently exists, if the first purchase did not cost a Buy, a player who played this would be able to put as many cards from their discard pile onto their deck in any order. The second purchase would also mean that this would give an additional +$1 for each Gold in a player's discard pile, and +$3 for each Platinum (they could also play every Silver for no net effect, unless they followed that up with a Bank or Raid). Thus, I presume you intended the abilities to only be used once per play of the card (otherwise, it is super busted).

    Even with that modification, it's almost strictly better than Royal Seal, an already pretty solid Treasure at the same price point. Not only can this topdeck the card you just bought, it can topdeck any other card you prefer, and that's only with the first purchase option. (The disadvantage being that if you gained multiple cards, this would only topdeck one). The second option effectively transforms this into the best Treasure card or Action card, as you gain $2 to spend $2. This would include all of the terminal Gold Action cards (Legionary, Sacred Grove, etc.) including Horse Traders, which you could play after getting all of the useful cards out of your hand.

    This could definitely be an interesting card to play, but as is I think it is too strong.





    (https://trello-attachments.s3.amazonaws.com/5f5a8e8e7ed38b522f25641a/60ba8b7291517b6931b6521a/e470f4c9b1ca6e8717f08942c89fd710/Caravaneer_(1).png)
    Quote from: Caravaneer
    Caravaneer -- $4
    Supplier - Gathering
    Exile a non-Victory card
    from the Supply to put 1VP
    on the Caravaneer pile.

    $4: take all the VP on the
    Caravaneer pile.
    Caravaneer by Aquila

    This is an interesting take on the mechanic. The most obvious comparison to an official card is Camel Train. This costs $1 more and loses the on-gain bonus, but does not cost an Action and has the added benefit of the Gathering function. I don't think the added cost is that important, as the main difference between $3 and $4 is often the ability to open with two of them, which I do not think one would want to do with either card. The on-Buy loss is more significant, but it is more or less cancelled out by the benefits.

    The main question for me is whether or not you would want to be buying the purchase on the turn you Exiled the card. While I tend to buy Camel Train to fight early rushes of cards like Tournament, once that fight is done I tend to use it more like duplicate, Exiling the card I am going to buy anyway (hopefully a Platinum or Gold, but sometimes a Bazaar or Venture). Here, players are going to tend to want to use the VP gain later on, which means the Exile-buy combo is off the table. Generally, this is exactly the kind of trade-off that makes for interesting decisions in the game, and I do ultimately like it, but I also think it makes the card a bit weaker than is ideal.






    (https://i.imgur.com/b5onV9k.png)
    Quote from: Trade Agreement
    Trade Agreement -- $5
    Treasure - Supplier
    +$2
    +1 Buy

    $1: Exile a card from
    your hand
    $3: Gain a Duchy
    Trade Agreement by grrgrrgrr

    An interesting entry. By itself, on play it either functions as Spices or a Goat (but Exiling instead of trashing). Of course, that's only if you want to Buy something that turn. If you drew a hand with Trade Agreement and only Victory cards, you could play the Trade Agreement and Exile 2 of them, a potent third option.

    It also allows you to buy two Duchies with only $4 more in your hand, meaning the rest of the cards could be, on average, a Copper, and you get a Province worth of VP. While it does put twice as many dead cards in your deck, Trade Agreement's strong ability to Exile cards mitigates that substantially. I think this would become extremely centralizing, forcing the players to contend over Duchies before moving on to Provinces. I do like the idea, but I think it might work better if the second purchase gave, like, VP tokens for buying Victory cards (or something to that effect) that would allow for a wider set of ways to use it.






    (https://i.imgur.com/Pj7k29l.png)
    Quote from: Elusive Helper
    Elusive Helper -- $4
    Night - Supplier
    For $3: Return to the start
    of any phase.
    Pick two different options:
    +1 Action; +2 Cards;
    +2 Buys; Gain a silver.

    Elusive Helper by fika monster

    First off, I am not exactly sure why this is a Night card. You are not able to Buy the purchase (or, as you described it, "the event") during your Night phase. Using one of these purchases works just like buying an Event, and just as you cannot buy an Event during your Night phase, you cannot buy a purchase. Since this does not do anything other than offer the purchase, I presume your intention is to allow the purchase to be made during the Night phase. If you could make the buy during the Night phase, the main difference would be to allow players to play other Night cards first. This could be significant for a couple of reasons: first, you could use Night Watchman to reorder the top of your deck then use those cards this turn; you could use Monastery to trash a card with an on-trash bonus and take advantage of that; or you could get around Haunted Woods by playing a Night card, returning to your buy phase, then buying the card you want (down $3, but up whatever you could get through the cards you gained). To be honest, I'm not sure it makes a ton of sense to have this be a Supplier. It could just as easily be a regular Night card that says something like "If you have at least $3, you may spend $3 to..."

    Whether or not it can be used in the Night phase, Elusive Helper is a supercharged version of the on-buy mechanics of Villa and Cavalry. It could be quite useful when you get stuck with terminal Action cards, either because you drew them dead or drew them during your Buy phase after using Toil or Scepter. In the former case, the card's effect is kind of a super-Lost City, offering additional options (+Buys/Silver gain) and allowing itself to be played when drawn dead. However, I'm not sure those benefits are really worth the -$3 cost. If you contrast the card with a village, your net benefit from this is generally going to be 1 card, and you only "break even" when that card is a Gold, an average that most decks don't achieve for most of the game. In a deck with no other villages and solid terminal drawing (Smithy, Torturer, etc.), it could be useful for that purposes. But generally if you are regularly drawing Action cards dead, this is hardly the most effective way of dealing with that. This contrasts with the on-buy versions of this. As with an Event, the benefit of Villa/Cavalry's on-buy bonus is that they are available to be received without needing a card in your deck to provide them. Here, Elusive Helper is either a dead card or you have to shell out the $3 for the limited effect. (This is somewhat mitigated by the silver-gaining option, as it does function as a virtually +Buy, albeit one that forces you to use that extra buy on a Silver).






    (https://i.imgur.com/WXKVJAh.png)
    Quote from: Fare
    Fare -- $5
    Treasure - Supplier
    $2
    +1 Buy

    $1: Draw an extra card for your next hand.
    Fare by Timinou


    Another strictly-better-than-Silver-for-$5 Treasure. This is not a problem, as it is a pretty logically price point for such a card: you are missing Gold, but still expecting something meaningfully better than Silver, which is a questionable prospect at $4 (and, in fact, more than half of the official Kingdom Treasures cost $5, 17 out of 33). Since you are missing Gold, you are not giving up that much by only getting $2 (there are certainly Kingdoms where at least some strategies would involve buying a Silver when hitting $5, at least some of the time), so the benefit shouldn't be too powerful (think Royal Seal, Relic, or Idol). I think this fits that happy medium.

    What I really like bout this card is that it will tend to play one of three ways: either you'll (a) use the $2 to hit a price point ($6 for Gold, $8 for Province, etc.) and forget about the +Buy and Supplier; or (b) use the $2 and +Buy to buy two cards (maybe a Village and a Smithy at $7); or you will use $1 to hit a price point and the other $1 and the Buy to juice your next turn (buying a Gold at $7). Only (b) and (c) are better than Silver, and only (c) is better than Spices (which also has an on-Gain bonus you're foregoing here). It does provide some additional options. If this is the only Treasure you draw (perhaps while greening at the end of the game), you could use it to get two cards on the following turn, an interesting alternative to buying an Estate.

    This definitely creates some interesting new gameplay options without being overpowered.






    (https://trello-attachments.s3.amazonaws.com/6019de42b869588d9701fbff/60be2f0c3699db47c764d357/8fe442d827225358589b1ff9f2ce8cb7/image.png)
    Quote from: Salt Merchant
    Salt Merchant -- $3
    Supplier
    Choose one:
    $0: +2 Buys
    $1: When you gain a card this turn, trash a copy of it from the Supply.
    $3: When you gain a card this turn, trash two copies of it from the Supply.
    Salt Merchant by spineflu

    Another very interesting entry, I see a couple of pretty significant problems with the card. First, unless you have another source of +Buy (either a second copy of the card or from elsewhere), the second and third options are nearly useless, as you would not be able to gain a card by buying it in order to get the effect. It would only be useful if you gained a card by playing a Night card, and only three of those (Changeling, Devil's Workshop, and Vampire) gain cards from the Supply during your Night phase.

    The second issue is that trashing from the Supply is of fairly limited value. The obvious analogy here is Salt the Earth, a card which can win you games (and has for me). When you hit a Province and your opponent had to settle for a Duchy, trashing the last Province can easily be the difference between winning an losing (especially when you hit $4 and would otherwise have to settle for an Estate). But key to that use is the Event always being available so that you can purchase it the one time you need it. Other than that, I can see three general uses for this: trying to win the split of a pile when you got the head start, filing the trash for gain-from-trash cards, and triggering on-trash abilities. In the first case, getting ahead in such a split is often going to be made harder by buying this instead of Silver (or the card your trying to pile itself). With the gain-from-trash cards, they each have their own way of filling the trash (although that doesn't make this an entirely bad prospect, as it is trashing cards you're buying anyway). For the on-trash abilities, it would be quite nice with Fortress or Catacombs, but beyond that the use is pretty limited.

    While this is a really interesting idea, I think its actual use is limited.





    (https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51236700126_b4450ec0ff_b.jpg)
    Quote from: Shrewd Collector
    Shrewd Collector -- $5
    Supplier
    +1 Buy
    $1: Discard a non-Victory card. If it costs...
    $0, trash it to gain a Silver.
    $1 to $4, gain a copy of a non-Victory card you have in play.
    $5 or more, +$6.
    Shrewd Collector by Xen3k

    This card is really something. Early on it can be a pretty effective trasher of Coppers (and later, Curses). The ability to gain a Silver is an interesting twist on Moneylender's +$3; that is what you would have spent, but it is not nearly as good as all of the things you could otherwise do with +$3 (and you had to spend $1 to get it, making it closer to one of the options with Sacrifice). Later, the second ability can allow for all sorts of plays. The most common (imo) would be to discard a Silver when to get a second copy of an Action card you are trying to rush (hopefully being able to afford another copy or something else). But it also provides some interesting synergies with cards like Baron that collisions to work properly. The third ability means that, as long as you have a Gold in your hand, it is at least a Silver, as you can discard the Gold for a net of +$5.

    I really appreciate that while this card can work a lot of different ways, on any given turn there are not likely to be that many practical options, so it has the benefit of versatility without the risk of analysis paralysis. I also like that this answers the question of why it should be a card, rather than an Event, and why a player would want to buy more than one. Here, the second copy of Shrewd Collector can be used to get the +$5.

    Title: Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 12: High on your own Supplier
    Post by: Xen3k on June 11, 2021, 02:54:17 pm
    The pictured version of Shrewd Collector is outdated, btw.
    Title: Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 12: High on your own Supplier
    Post by: emtzalex on June 11, 2021, 04:27:39 pm
    The pictured version of Shrewd Collector is outdated, btw.

    Thanks. Don't know how I missed that. It's been corrected.
    Title: Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 12: High on your own Supplier
    Post by: The Alchemist on June 11, 2021, 06:52:32 pm
    Apologies, I meant to update my post with the feedback received. If not to late could you judge this version?

    (https://imgur.com/kh2wm0J.png)
    Title: Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 12: High on your own Supplier
    Post by: emtzalex on June 11, 2021, 07:38:41 pm
    Apologies, I meant to update my post with the feedback received. If not to late could you judge this version?

    (https://imgur.com/kh2wm0J.png)

    Yes, I'm willing to do that. Do you still want the same rules modification you had before? In your original post you said:

    In my implementation, taking an effect from a Supplier does not use up a buy, as far too often you would just want to include "+1 Buy" for the effect to be worth it.

    If not, please let me know what, if any, rules modifications there are.

    Since I've already let in two late amendments, and I probably won't be able to start the judging until Sunday, I think I will just extend the deadline by 24 hours, but this will be a firm deadline. Please have a final version of your submission (including both the card and any variation on the rule that you are proposing) by absolutely no later than 18:00 UTC / 2:00 p.m. Eastern/Forum time on Saturday, June 12, 2021.
    Title: Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 12: High on your own Supplier
    Post by: The Alchemist on June 11, 2021, 09:11:26 pm

    Yes, I'm willing to do that. Do you still want the same rules modification you had before? In your original post you said:


    Yes for the above card it still uses the no buys taken up rule, but honestly if you prefer to keep the same rules (since it is your idea), I think the card would be just fine with a +1 Buy under the coin and your original rules. I was just thinking it would be a nice change since you would almost always want to design a card that gave +Buys otherwise any supplier effect is just rarely worth it, and as you can see almost every submission did just that. But I'm not super married to the idea, so you can judge it by the default rules (with a buy included) if you'd like.
    Title: Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 12: High on your own Supplier
    Post by: emtzalex on June 14, 2021, 12:21:15 pm
    Results

    Runners-up:

    Caravaneer (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20812.msg871196#msg871196) by Aquila

    Fare (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20812.msg871240#msg871240) by Timinou



    Winner:

    Shrewd Collector (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20812.25) by Xen3k
    Title: Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 12: High on your own Supplier
    Post by: fika monster on June 14, 2021, 01:40:40 pm
    aw

    gg
    Title: Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 12: High on your own Supplier
    Post by: Xen3k on June 14, 2021, 02:55:56 pm
    Results

    Runners-up:

    Caravaneer (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20812.msg871196#msg871196) by Aquila

    Fare (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20812.msg871240#msg871240) by Timinou



    Winner:

    Shrewd Collector (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20812.25) by Xen3k

    Wow, thanks! Lots of thanks to grrgrrgrr for giving me feedback. Lots of thanks to emtzalex for the thorough judging.

    However, I do not think I can't host the next challenge at this time due to irl issues that will prevent me from giving it the appropriate attention. Apologies. I would appreciate it if someone else can set up the next challenge. Not sure how I do this, but I assume @emtzalex decides which runner up gets the 2nd place?
    Title: Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 12: High on your own Supplier
    Post by: emtzalex on June 14, 2021, 03:34:35 pm

    Wow, thanks! Lots of thanks to grrgrrgrr for giving me feedback. Lots of thanks to emtzalex for the thorough judging.

    However, I do not think I can't host the next challenge at this time due to irl issues that will prevent me from giving it the appropriate attention. Apologies. I would appreciate it if someone else can set up the next challenge. Not sure how I do this, but I assume @emtzalex decides which runner up gets the 2nd place?

    You're welcome.

    If I had ranked them, Timinou would have gotten second place.
    Title: Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 12: High on your own Supplier
    Post by: spineflu on June 14, 2021, 03:58:30 pm
    ah, somehow i'd missed that doing a supplier option costs a buy as well. I had designed with that to just have a coin cost.
    Title: Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 12: High on your own Supplier
    Post by: Timinou on June 14, 2021, 09:37:29 pm
    Congrats, Xen3K!  I'm in a bit of a crunch myself, but I can have the next contest thread up tomorrow evening.
    Title: Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 12: High on your own Supplier
    Post by: grrgrrgrr on June 15, 2021, 02:41:46 am
    Congratz Xen3K and great judging by emtzalex!
    Title: Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 12: High on your own Supplier
    Post by: emtzalex on June 16, 2021, 02:39:24 am
    Thanks to everyone who participated. Based on some of the discussions, I have decided to make one modification/clarification to the mechanic going forward: the Purchases on Supplier cards are only available while the card is in play. I hadn't previously specified if that was a requirement in my original post, but I think for tracking purposes that is the most straightforward way of doing it.

    I am working on a post with the cards I had previously designed for the mechanic (and some I have designed since posting the contest), as well as a restatement of how it works that will hopefully be more clear.
    Title: Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 12: High on your own Supplier
    Post by: emtzalex on June 16, 2021, 11:09:18 am
    Suppliers are a new card type that gives a player additional buying options during their Buy phase. Having a Supplier in play is like adding an Event to the game (or more than one). Each Supplier card will have at least one Purchase, which is indicated by a price (in coins, debt, etc.), followed by a colon, followed by the effect the Purchase generates. Buying a Purchase means paying the cost indicated on the Supplier and then doing the effect next to it. Just like when you buy an Event, buying a Purchase uses up a Buy. Also, the price of a purchase can use pricing mechanics like costs less (e.g. Peddler) or overpay (e.g. Doctor).

    Example:
    (https://i.imgur.com/2AkfqEch.png)
    Matchmaker is a Supplier that allows a player to pay $6 and use a buy to gain two cards, a Victory card that costs up to $5, and a different card costing the same as that Victory card.

    The act of buying a Purchases works exactly like buying an Event. Thus, a Purchase can be bought multiple times in a turn if the player has the Buys and $ available to do it, unless the Supplier specifically states otherwise (e.g. by saying "once per turn"). Similarly, a player may buy different Purchases from the same Supplier (if they can afford it). Some Purchases give +Buys and so let the player buy further cards/Events/Projects/Purchases afterwards. Players cannot play further Treasures that turn after buying a Purchase. Buying a Purchase is not buying a card and so does not trigger cards like Swamp Hag, and the costs of Purchases are not affected by cards like Bridge. Each Supplier creates its own "virtual Event", meaning that if a Supplier has a Purchase that says "Once per turn" and a player plays two copies of that Supplier, they can buy that Purchase once from each.

    Example:
    (https://i.imgur.com/PtAUNpvh.png)
    Work Camp's one Purchase provides +1 Buy in addition to the three Villagers it gives. That means that a player can buy this Purchase as many times as they can afford to spend the coins, or buy it then buy something else (even if they only have 1 Buy).

    The Purchase(s) on a Supplier card are available during a player's Buy phase while that card is in play. If a Supplier leaves play (for example, by being trashed with Bonfire), it's Purchases are no longer available. Similarly, if a Supplier with another type (such as an Action - Supplier card) is played by a Command card that doesn't put it in play (like Overlord), the Purchase(s) are not available. Conversely, if a Supplier - Duration remains in play on the following turn, its purchases would still be available then. Buying the purchases isn't part of resolving the card (as, for example, paying your coins to Storyteller to draw cards is), so a player can play a Supplier, take other actions, then later buy a Purchase (so long as the Supplier is still in play).

    Example:
    (https://i.imgur.com/gyN5RT3h.png)
    Wet Market's second ($5) Purchase self-trashes the card. After that happens, a player cannot buy that Purchase again, or buy the other Purchase. However, the player could first buy the $1 Purchase as many times as they wish, then buy the $5 Purchase (if they still have enough coins) and trash the card.

    Generally, Suppliers will be Kingdom cards, purchased from the Supply to go into a player's deck. Suppliers are played during your Buy phase. Unlike Treasures, they may be played at any point during your Buy phase, even after you buy something. Suppliers may have some additional effect when they are played, which can including giving vanilla bonuses. Supplier cards can have other types (e.g. Treasure, Action, Reaction, Duration, Victory) as well; such cards behave like all other dual-type cards.

    Example:
    (https://i.imgur.com/h8Y3n9Wh.png)
    Silversmith is an Action - Supplier card, which is a Peddler variant when played during the Action phase, and provides the same effect as Delve if it is in play during a player's Buy phase.

    I think that the Supplier type has the potential to create a lot of interesting strategies and interactions. Below are some of the cards I created.




    (https://i.imgur.com/dHiFihHh.png)

    Quote from: Quartermaster
    Quartermaster -- $2
    Supplier
    $1: +2 Buys
    $3: Gain a card onto your deck costing up to $4.

    Quartermaster is a relatively simple Supplier with two Purchases. The first converts coins into Buys. The second gains and topdecks a card. You can use it to get extra Buys. You can use it to get the mid-range cards you buy onto your deck (or get $4 cards when you only have $3). Even if you're buying a Silver, you can gain it onto your deck, accelerating your payload. If you hit $7 (or $6 and 2 Buys), it can enable next-turn combos of two cards costing up to $4, some of which are quite potent (e.g. village-Smithy or 2 Treasure Maps).

    As I discussed in the opening post, Suppliers have some systemic weaknesses. One of the thing that means is that they can have pretty powerful effects without being totally overpowered (because they are so hard to use).

    (https://i.imgur.com/JucM1orh.png)

    Quote from: Conquistador
    Conquistador -- $13
    Supplier
    $10: Exile a Colony from the Supply.
    -----
    In games using this, play with Colonies and Platinum

    Exiling a Colony from the Supply is absurdly powerful. However, the need to buy this at $13, then line it up with $10 on one turn make it challenging enough to justify the powerful effect (although it does create an extremely simple Golden Deck with very efficient trashing, e.g. Donate).

    One advantage Suppliers have over Events is actually also one of their weaknesses. The fact that the Purchase isn't always available to all players means that effects that could be easily countered by a subsequent buy by another player (like taking an Artifact) can be more effective with a Supplier, as the player who buys the Supplier is much more likely to be able keep that Artifact for multiple turns (especially if they are the only one who buys it).

    (https://i.imgur.com/sf8DzUqh.png)

    Quote from: Curio Shop
    Curio Shop -- $5
    Supplier
    +1 Buy
    $2: Choose one: take the Sextant; or take the Censer; or take the Scroll.
    $3: gain an Treasure costing up to $5 onto your deck.
    (https://i.imgur.com/K0lGus1h.png)

    Quote from: Sextant
    Sextant
    Artifact
    At the start of your turn, you may discard your hand and draw 5 cards.
    (https://i.imgur.com/BU4wB9zh.png)

    Quote from: Censer
    Censer
    Artifact
    At the start of your turn, you may trash a card from your hand.
    (https://i.imgur.com/UoHoN0Oh.png)

    Quote from: Scroll
    Scroll
    Artifact
    At the start of your turn, you may discard two cards to look through your discard pile and put a card from it into your hand.

    Curio Shop's first Purchase allows a player to take one (at a time) of three Artifacts. Each of them are pretty useful (if not equally so), but they also compliment one another: you can trash a card from your hand then trade in for a full (5 card) hand; you can discard two Victory cards to pull a Curse from your discard pile to trash; if you swap your hand with Sextant (and don't hit the shuffle), you can discard two of the new cards to gain one of the cards you discarded (say, swapping a Copper and a Province for a Gold). The second purchase can give access to Kingdom Treasures (or discounted Golds) onto the deck at a discounted rate (or, in the worse case scenario, topdeck Silvers you buy to accelerate getting them into your hand).

    There is a lot of potential for dual-type Supplier cards. I had previously posted a Supplier - Duration, but given the modification I made to the rules, that card needs to be changed as well.

    (https://i.imgur.com/BOFNbjIh.png)

    Quote from: Summoner
    Summoner -- $3
    Supplier - Duration
    +1 Buy
    $4: Gain an Action card costing up to $5. Set it aside face up (on this). At the start of your next turn, play it, then discard this from play.

    The new version is similar to the old one, but because it needs to discard itself I limited it to a single Purchase. I think most Supplier - Durations will need to self-discard after playing their start-of-turn effect, or else their Purchase could be constantly bough on every turn, keeping them in play. Of course, that function could be made an intentional part of the card's design.

    (https://i.imgur.com/yHx9GXGh.png)

    Quote from: Exchequer
    Exchequer -- $5
    $2: Once per turn: +1 Buy, at the start of your next turn, +$3.

    Exchequer can function as a kind of Hireling variant that gives $1 each turn instead of a card (albeit one that requires spending $2 to get started). However, it offers a second option, as a player can opt not to rebuy the Purchase, and take the $3 on a turn instead (an easy decision if doing allows them to buy a game winning card). Edit: This was originally called Bank, which I somehow forgot was an official card. Thanks to Gubump for pointing that out and suggesting the new name.

    Another combo with a lot of potential (recognized by Aquila with his card Caravaneer) is Supplier - Gathering.

    (https://i.imgur.com/gyN5RT3h.png)

    Quote from: Wet Market
    Wet Market -- $3
    Supplier - Gathering
    $1: +2 Buys, add 1VP to the Wet Market supply pile.
    $5: Trash this. If you did, take the VP from the Wet Market Supply pile.

    This card is the closest among the ones I designed to any of the contest submissions (I made this prior to the contest). I initially conceived of Wet Market as a variant on Farmers' Market. It can be used for extra buys, adding VP tokens to its pile, then trashed to take those tokens. It is less useful than Farmers' Market, failing to provide any coins, but it has a significantly increased capacity to Gather VP tokens. 

    There are several other potential dual type combos that I have experimented with.

    (https://i.imgur.com/jLYuX40h.png)

    Quote from: Cursed Wanderer
    Cursed Wanderer -- $4
    Action - Supplier
    If it's your Action phase, you may discard any number of cards; for each card discarded, +$1 per $2 it costs (round down).
    $1: Take the Monkey's Paw.
    (https://i.imgur.com/kGkmolSh.png)
    Quote from: Monkey's Paw
    Monkey's Paw:
    At the start of your turn, you may gain a card costing up to $6 to your hand. If you did, gain a card named by the player to your left.

    Cursed Wanderer is an Action - Supplier card. The Action allows a player to discard cards for coins based on the cost of the discarded cards. While this can yield substantial benefit when a Province is discarded, it gains nothing when a player discards Coppers or Curses. The Purchase gains an Artifact, Monkey's Paw (partially inspired by Commodore Chuckles Bottle Imp (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20521.msg861301#msg861301), but based on a different story of an Evil object that gives people what they want at a terrible cost).

    Monkey's Paw functions as a Wish at the start of each turn, but at the cost of getting junked a card by an opponent. This will normally be a Curse, but I wanted it to continue to give junk even if those runs out, and to build in the flexibility for a player to decide what the most disadvantageous piece of junk would be (could Coppers, Ruins, Silver in a game with Bandit Fort, a unique card in a game with Wolf Den, or just a card that helps the other player win, perhaps by emptying a pile).
     

    (https://i.imgur.com/YH8grSNh.png)

    Quote from: Dauphin
    Dauphin -- $4
    Supplier - Victory
    $4: Gain a Dauphinate.
    -----
    Worth 1VP per Dauphinate you have.
    (https://i.imgur.com/Y5Pxp8Wh.png)

    Quote from: Dauphinate
    Dauphinate -- $4*
    Victory
    2VP
    (This is not in the Supply.)

    Supplier - Victory cards have a couple of point of appeal. First, it provides an answer to the question of why the Supplier is not an Event. Second, as Victory cards default as being dead cards, any functionality is a positive (which is why Tunnel is the only Kingdom reaction that cannot be played for an effect).

    Dauphin is a self-contained Duke/Duchy variant, being the source of the card that increases its value. The cards are cheaper than their official counterpart, but the Dauphinate is only worth 2VP, and harder to get. On the other hand, it's harder for other players to interfere by grapping one of the cards (as Dauphin with any Dauphinates is worthless, while a Duchy is always worth something for a player).

    (https://i.imgur.com/gIpEDGLh.png)

    Quote from: Donkey Trader
    Donkey Trader -- $4
    Supplier - Reaction
    $1: +1 Buy; gain a Donkey.
    ----
    When you gain a card, you may reveal this from your hand, to exchange the card for a Donkey.
    (https://i.imgur.com/k5BPgZlm.png)

    Quote from: Donkey
    Donkey -- $3*
    Action
    +1 Card
    +1 Action
    +$1
    Return this to its pile.

    (This is not in the Supply.)

    A variant of Trader, this card's Purchase converts coins into Donkeys. Donkeys are almost always worse than Coffers (except when you can take advantage of them being Action cards, for example by Throning them), but they're almost always better than cards that junkers give you, so the reaction is still useful.

    (https://i.imgur.com/PksFhAWh.png)

    Quote from: Tavern Lodging
    Tavern Lodging -- $3
    Supplier - Reserve
    $2: +1 Buy. Put this on your Tavern mat. Gain an Action card costing up to $4 and set it aside face up under this.
    -----
    At the start of your turn, you may call this to play the card under it.

    A twist on the Summoner card, this gains and sets aside an Action card until the Reserve is called. This can help guarantee certain beneficial collisions (e.g. Treasure Map) by letting a player hold an Action until they want to use it. Way of the Turtle can be used the same way.

    I was also interested in seeing if I could do a Supplier - Heirloom.


    (https://i.imgur.com/KhFcrg1h.png)

    Quote from: Pardoner
    Pardoner -- $5
    Action - Gathering
    +1 Card
    +1 Action
    +$1
    Add 1% to the Pardoner Supply pile.
    (https://i.imgur.com/F7V0btqh.png)

    Quote from: Indulgence
    Indulgence -- $2
    Treasure - Supplier - Heirloom
    $1
    $4: Return a Pardoner from your hand to the Supply. If you did, take the % from the Pardoner Supply pile.

    I like this card/heirloom combo a lot, but I don't know that Indulgence really makes the best use of the Supplier mechanic. It could easily give the option of returning the Pardoner without paying.

    (https://i.imgur.com/Dmm8Jx1h.png)

    Quote from: Mercante
    Mercante -- $4
    Action
    +1 Card
    +1 Action
    When you play a Silver this turn, if you then have an odd number of Silvers in play, +1 Buy; if an even number, +$1.
    (https://i.imgur.com/KIc4zP2h.png)

    Quote from: Cassone
    Cassone -- $2
    Treasure - Supplier - Heirloom
    $1
    $4: Gain 2 Silvers.

    Cassone feels more like a Supplier card, and I like the way it interacts with Mercante. My big concern with this is that only if a player opens $4/$3 or $3/$4, with Cassone in the $4 hand, can they open with three Silvers. I tried to do the math and believe that would happen just under 50% of the time, which might make games using this a lot more dependent on an opening hand.

    I hope people found these interesting. I would appreciate any feedback you all have.











    Title: Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 12: High on your own Supplier
    Post by: Gubump on June 16, 2021, 04:52:39 pm
    Bank is already the name of an official card:
    (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?title=Special%3AFilePath&file=Bank.jpg)

    I'd recommend the name Exchequer.
    Title: Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 12: High on your own Supplier
    Post by: emtzalex on June 16, 2021, 06:00:12 pm
    Bank is already the name of an official card:
    (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?title=Special%3AFilePath&file=Bank.jpg)

    I'd recommend the name Exchequer.

    ***Facepalm*** I don't know how I forgot that. Thanks for pointing it out (and for the suggestion).