Dominion Strategy Forum

Miscellaneous => Forum Games => Mafia Game Threads => Topic started by: jotheonah on May 19, 2021, 02:17:08 pm

Title: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: jotheonah on May 19, 2021, 02:17:08 pm
This will be a role madness game for 13 people with flavor based on the Wizard of Oz movie, and no other Oz source material.  It will be role madness in that everyone will have a role, but the roles themselves will be mostly uncomplicated and there are no weird novel gimmicks. Should just be chill, fun, classic mafia with a fun nostalgic theme.


co-mod: LaLight
/in list:

1. Awaclus
2. mathdude
3. faust
4. Swowl
5. mcmcsalot iguanaiguana
6. Dylan32
7. WestCoastDidds
8. 2.71828.....
9. Glooble
10. MiX
11. EFHW
12. pubby
13. Galzria

Alternates:
Jimmmmm

Normal mafia rules apply. Days will last five IRL days and nights will last 48 IRL hours.
Title: Re: RMM59: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Awaclus on May 19, 2021, 02:28:46 pm
/in
Title: Re: RMM59: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: mathdude on May 19, 2021, 07:04:58 pm
hoping to be /in longer than day 1!
Title: Re: RMM59: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: faust on May 20, 2021, 01:05:00 am
/in
Title: Re: RMM59: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: LaLight on May 20, 2021, 07:33:27 am
can /comod, although my availability may be a bit hindered. but I can check once in 2-3 days
Title: Re: RMM59: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: jotheonah on May 20, 2021, 08:34:37 am
can /comod, although my availability may be a bit hindered. but I can check once in 2-3 days

Thanks! You're hired.
Title: Re: RMM59: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Swowl on May 20, 2021, 02:25:36 pm
/insauce
Title: Re: RMM59: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: mcmcsalot on May 22, 2021, 07:15:16 pm
/in love the sound of this, though sad oz 2 isnít also cannon :)
Title: Re: RMM59: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: iguanaiguana on May 22, 2021, 09:05:05 pm
/in
Title: Re: RMM59: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: 2.71828..... on May 24, 2021, 05:25:07 pm
Sure

/In
Title: Re: RMM59: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: EFHW on May 24, 2021, 09:24:44 pm
/in. I liked the 4th WofOz book - Dorothy and the wizard fall into a earthquake fault and have underground adventures.
Title: Re: RMM59: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: ashersky on May 25, 2021, 11:15:48 pm
/tag
Title: Re: RMM59: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Glooble on May 26, 2021, 11:19:33 am
/in as a player or I can co-mod if you'd prefer.
Title: Re: RMM59: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Glooble on May 26, 2021, 11:20:31 am
Wait I just saw LaLight is co-modding. I'm in to play.
Title: Re: RMM59: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on May 26, 2021, 11:24:34 am
I should probably jo/in, right?
Title: Re: RMM59: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: WestCoastDidds on May 26, 2021, 02:35:28 pm
Then /in me, too
Title: Re: RMM59: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: ashersky on May 26, 2021, 08:09:58 pm
/tag

To be clear, only tagging because I need to focus on finishing SG1 mafia setup, not because of anything else.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: 2.71828..... on June 05, 2021, 02:06:32 pm
Joining BSG, going to have to /out here
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: hypercube on June 21, 2021, 12:02:22 pm
I will join if this hasn't started once I've moved to Zurich in early July.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: EFHW on June 21, 2021, 01:49:59 pm
/out, sorry I do terribly trying to play two games at once.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: mathdude on August 03, 2021, 08:59:16 am
/revive ?
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Dylan32 on August 03, 2021, 09:16:38 am
Assuming there will be a similar gap between BSG seasons as last time, /in.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: 2.71828..... on August 03, 2021, 01:38:03 pm
Assuming there will be a similar gap between BSG seasons as last time, /in.

/In
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: faust on August 03, 2021, 03:11:28 pm
Assuming there will be a similar gap between BSG seasons as last time, /in.
I think we'll take time to let all the currently open games fill. I don't want to monopolize the queue.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: EFHW on August 05, 2021, 11:44:40 am
back /in
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: iguanaiguana on August 05, 2021, 11:55:33 am
/out

I won't have access between tomorrow and probably the 17th, so if it's starting now someone can have my spot.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: pubby on August 08, 2021, 07:31:15 pm
/in as Munchkin Mayor
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Dylan32 on August 08, 2021, 07:53:49 pm
Well, we should be at X-1 here if everyone that said in is still in and we have a mod.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Galzria on August 09, 2021, 01:46:41 am
/hammerstats

Letís go!
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Galzria on August 09, 2021, 02:25:57 am
Iíll DM Joth tomorrow on FB if he doesnít check in here by then (unless someone else wants to).
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Jimmmmm on August 09, 2021, 03:15:57 am
/in
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Jimmmmm on August 09, 2021, 03:16:37 am
Oh wait was that already the hammer?
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: WestCoastDidds on August 09, 2021, 01:24:55 pm
Iíll DM Joth tomorrow on FB if he doesnít check in here by then (unless someone else wants to).

smart!
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: WestCoastDidds on August 09, 2021, 01:27:39 pm
I can FB message him, Galzy
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: jotheonah on August 10, 2021, 01:06:18 pm
hi friends. I'm at a conference until next week, so I will start this then. Sorry to make you all wait! Maybe I can find time to do PMs and confirmations sooner.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: jotheonah on August 17, 2021, 12:43:28 pm
OK, I have sorted out all the /ins and /outs and updated the player list. I also made some setup changes based on LaLight's suggestions. So all that's left is to roll this up, make QTs, etc. Should have time for all that this evening.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: pubby on August 18, 2021, 03:32:12 am
Day 1 better be in black and white
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: mathdude on August 18, 2021, 07:13:48 am
So the host can't post in a fun colour? Or just can't post vote counts? Hnnm
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: jotheonah on August 18, 2021, 04:49:02 pm
Thread locked while PMs go out. Please confirm in your QT when you receive your role.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: jotheonah on August 18, 2021, 05:06:19 pm
All PMs are out! Game will start 24 hours after the last confirmation.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: EFHW on August 19, 2021, 09:00:01 am
So the host can't post in a fun colour? Or just can't post vote counts? Hnnm
The Kansas part of the movie is in B&W.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: jotheonah on August 20, 2021, 10:34:16 am
We have one player who has not confirmed after well over 24 hours. I will be reaching out to alternates about taking the spot.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: jotheonah on August 20, 2021, 06:49:10 pm
iguanaiguana has replaced mcmcsalot
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: jotheonah on August 21, 2021, 02:03:02 pm
Game start at 7 pm forum time.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: jotheonah on August 21, 2021, 06:59:28 pm
Somewhere in Kansas, on the Gale family farm, a little girl is dreaming of a better life. She is Dorothy Gale, an Innocent Child.

ďSomewhere over the rainbow, Toto,Ē she says to her little dog. ďTheres a more exciting life for us.Ē

Little did she know how exciting her life was about to become.

Meanwhile in a faraway land, in a dark and creepy castle, a green witch watches the little girl through her crystal ball.

ďIíll get you my pretty,Ē she says. ďAnd your little dog too!Ē

Day one begins now. MiX is confirmed town.

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to exile.

Thread Unlocked
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Dylan32 on August 21, 2021, 07:12:00 pm
First! Let's be honest, MiX being IC is like the best case scenario. There's nobody I'd rather not have to try to read lol
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on August 21, 2021, 07:20:08 pm
Second!

Hi I'm the IC. Scum, kill me.

I'll be back with thoughts. In the mean time, how is everyone today?
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Glooble on August 21, 2021, 08:24:41 pm
Hello everyone!

Not a lot to speculate on really. So...

vote: Dylan32 I guess. Since I won't get to day 1 policy exile you in BSG, RVS is the next best thing.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Galzria on August 21, 2021, 08:30:34 pm
MiX!

Why should I believe that you arenít scuÖ

Fuck.

Nevermind.

Hello everybody!! Good to be back in a game!
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on August 21, 2021, 08:33:38 pm
MiX!

Why should I believe that you arenít scuÖ

Fuck.

Nevermind.

Hello everybody!! Good to be back in a game!

Vote: Galzria
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Galzria on August 21, 2021, 08:33:48 pm
So this IS still an RMM (I know a normal game has been in the works/requested/desired for a time now), but beyond thatÖ we donít know much about this setup really. I guess Joth promised none of the roles would be wonky.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Galzria on August 21, 2021, 08:35:17 pm
Iguana!!!

Man, I know that Iíve missed a few games now, but whatís the last one you were in??
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Galzria on August 21, 2021, 08:37:07 pm
FYI - Swowl is going camping starting tonight and may not have access until he gets back sometime on Tuesday.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: iguanaiguana on August 21, 2021, 08:46:30 pm
Iguana!!!

Man, I know that Iíve missed a few games now, but whatís the last one you were in??

Looking at my own post history... I last played a game in September of 2018.

My goal this run around is to be a bit less of a jerk.

Vote: Lalight.

Having an IC leads to really good PoE that he is scum.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on August 21, 2021, 09:06:12 pm
So this IS still an RMM (I know a normal game has been in the works/requested/desired for a time now), but beyond thatÖ we donít know much about this setup really. I guess Joth promised none of the roles would be wonky.

I am just an IC so I would expect roles to be one-dimensional, as it were.

Iguana!!!

Man, I know that Iíve missed a few games now, but whatís the last one you were in??

Looking at my own post history... I last played a game in September of 2018.

My goal this run around is to be a bit less of a jerk.

Vote: Lalight.

Having an IC leads to really good PoE that he is scum.

Hi iguana! If I recall correctly, you are awesome. Are you also town?
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: jotheonah on August 21, 2021, 09:13:49 pm
Spectators, feel free to PM me for the speccy link.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Galzria on August 21, 2021, 09:25:35 pm
Iguana!!!

Man, I know that Iíve missed a few games now, but whatís the last one you were in??

Looking at my own post history... I last played a game in September of 2018.

My goal this run around is to be a bit less of a jerk.

Vote: Lalight.

Having an IC leads to really good PoE that he is scum.

So hilariously (and true story), Swowl and I were on our way to a baseball game yesterday afternoon and he looks over at me while Iím driving and goes Ö man, I you know who Iíve missed that we havenít seen in forever? IguanaIguana!

He then recounted the time you went to your exile spamming the thread with memeís after getting caught as a poisoner. When we got back I checked to see if the game was open and couldnít believe to see you had subbed in! Serendipitous!
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: EFHW on August 21, 2021, 10:26:10 pm
Iguana!!!

Man, I know that Iíve missed a few games now, but whatís the last one you were in??

Looking at my own post history... I last played a game in September of 2018.

My goal this run around is to be a bit less of a jerk.

Vote: Lalight.

Having an IC leads to really good PoE that he is scum.

No way it's been three years! Seriously?
I think everyone who comes back to mafia after a break resolves to be nicer this time around. I did.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: EFHW on August 21, 2021, 10:29:08 pm
First! Let's be honest, MiX being IC is like the best case scenario. There's nobody I'd rather not have to try to read lol

My thought as well.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Awaclus on August 22, 2021, 01:40:17 am
Vote: faust
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Swowl on August 22, 2021, 02:03:16 am
Howdy.
Can confirm I am camping for a few days, but should have someeeeee access.
Can confirm random nostalgic convo with Galz about II right before he joined.

Welcome back iguana.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: 2.71828..... on August 22, 2021, 02:38:40 am
Vote: faust

That's a case I can sheep

Vote: faust
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: pubby on August 22, 2021, 02:45:35 am
vote: iguanaiguana
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: faust on August 22, 2021, 03:15:16 am
No way it's been three years! Seriously?
I think everyone who comes back to mafia after a break resolves to be nicer this time around. I did.
Now I'm wondering how that reflects on me, given that I never had a proper break...
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: faust on August 22, 2021, 03:16:01 am
Vote: faust
Is there any particular game that I was scum in that prompted this vote?
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Dylan32 on August 22, 2021, 03:19:09 am
Hello everyone!

Not a lot to speculate on really. So...

vote: Dylan32 I guess. Since I won't get to day 1 policy exile you in BSG, RVS is the next best thing.

I mean, yeah, I got that one wrong about you, but at least I was honest about it lol.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: faust on August 22, 2021, 03:20:45 am
Vote: faust
Is there any particular game that I was scum in that prompted this vote?
And I'm already regretting this question since I know what the answer is going to be.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on August 22, 2021, 06:22:20 am
Vote: faust
Is there any particular game that I was scum in that prompted this vote?
And I'm already regretting this question since I know what the answer is going to be.

It's a good answer, you have to be honest here.

Vote: faust

This is not a good vote, however.

Vote: Awaclus
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: mathdude on August 22, 2021, 08:02:41 am
Well, my typical first vote isn't available... what kind of mod makes MiX an IC? Seriously though, I agree with others that it's better not having to try and read MiX, who I usually read as scum, even when he's town.

Vote: pubby
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: WestCoastDidds on August 22, 2021, 08:42:57 am
Hi hi hi hi hi hi!

I loooooooooove the Wizard of Oz. I went to grad school in Kansas (the breadbasket of America is a bastion for rhetoric scholars, who knew?!) and endured years of Dorothy jokes, but I love it still. It was also my middle school play a million year ago.

MiX! You are the best IC! Galzy! Itís been a minute! Iguana!!! Hi hi hi!

Also, iguana was my coach when I first, first started playing. There was a newbie game where everyone was allowed to have a coach, although only a couple of us did. He was my coach, and he helped me understand some things that would have taken me forever to figure out.

faust, Iím glad youíve never left. You are made of awesome.

Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Awaclus on August 22, 2021, 10:17:15 am
Vote: faust
Is there any particular game that I was scum in that prompted this vote?

Yes, RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on August 22, 2021, 11:07:28 am
Vote: faust
Is there any particular game that I was scum in that prompted this vote?

Yes, RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia.

He hadn't even posted once, so how could he have influenced your vote at all?

Can you explain why you voted for faust?
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: faust on August 22, 2021, 11:25:57 am
Vote: mathdude
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on August 22, 2021, 11:31:26 am
Vote: faust

That's a case I can sheep

Vote: faust

Hey e! Last game you were pretty excited about being here, why is your first post this game low effort comparatively?

Also, faust didn't even post...I like faust wagons when he's scummy, but just wagoning him for no reason is exactly how he gets to live D1 everytime he's scum.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: faust on August 22, 2021, 11:34:39 am
Also, faust didn't even post...I like faust wagons when he's scummy, but just wagoning him for no reason is exactly how he gets to live D1 everytime he's scum.
Oh is that how? I figured it was my winning personality...
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on August 22, 2021, 11:35:40 am
Also, faust didn't even post...I like faust wagons when he's scummy, but just wagoning him for no reason is exactly how he gets to live D1 everytime he's scum.
Oh is that how? I figured it was my winning personality...

Well, that's how you live D1 in general.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: mathdude on August 22, 2021, 12:26:08 pm
Vote: mathdude

No. I'm not going to allow that. That's MiX's job. Try again.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: iguanaiguana on August 22, 2021, 12:28:43 pm
Thanks for the warm welcome back everyone.

I had forgotten about those memes, so I looked them up. They were LOST themed and quite dank.

No one sheeped my awesome Lalight RVS case... that makes it stronger, no?


Hi iguana! If I recall correctly, you are awesome. Are you also town?

Thank you, and yes. I'm a town  8)

Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Awaclus on August 22, 2021, 12:40:36 pm
Can you explain why you voted for faust?

Well it was obviously an RVS vote, but I figured I'd rather not punish the people who had posted something for activity.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: faust on August 22, 2021, 01:09:10 pm
Can you explain why you voted for faust?

Well it was obviously an RVS vote, but I figured I'd rather not punish the people who had posted something for activity.
It is clearly preferable to punish people for sleeping!
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Awaclus on August 22, 2021, 01:31:56 pm
Can you explain why you voted for faust?

Well it was obviously an RVS vote, but I figured I'd rather not punish the people who had posted something for activity.
It is clearly preferable to punish people for sleeping!

Yeah! Sleeping is fine, but activity is important.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Galzria on August 22, 2021, 02:16:28 pm
faust, when was the last time (if ever ... although I *think* it has happened?) that you were exiled on D1?
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: faust on August 22, 2021, 03:37:26 pm
faust, when was the last time (if ever ... although I *think* it has happened?) that you were exiled on D1?
It definitely happened... I remember this game (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9840.msg327933#msg327933). It was a while ago. Not sure if it happened since. I don't recall ever being exiled D1 as scum.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: 2.71828..... on August 22, 2021, 04:05:04 pm
faust, when was the last time (if ever ... although I *think* it has happened?) that you were exiled on D1?
It definitely happened... I remember this game (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9840.msg327933#msg327933). It was a while ago. Not sure if it happened since. I don't recall ever being exiled D1 as scum.

So long ago. That was my third game I believe.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: 2.71828..... on August 22, 2021, 04:08:19 pm
Vote: faust

That's a case I can sheep

Vote: faust

Hey e! Last game you were pretty excited about being here, why is your first post this game low effort comparatively?

Also, faust didn't even post...I like faust wagons when he's scummy, but just wagoning him for no reason is exactly how he gets to live D1 everytime he's scum.

I had a whole lot more free time to start that game up with my wife and kids in vacation before I could get it to join them, so my activity level was inflated over "normal"

Also, not quite sure how to jump in here. I am on the verge of advocating a D1 mass claim, but know that would be foolish and just get me exiled
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on August 22, 2021, 04:16:41 pm
I had a whole lot more free time to start that game up with my wife and kids in vacation before I could get it to join them, so my activity level was inflated over "normal"

Also, not quite sure how to jump in here. I am on the verge of advocating a D1 mass claim, but know that would be foolish and just get me exiled

I have thought about it, and given that I know the least about the setup, I am clearly in a position to say that massclaiming is anti-town.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: jotheonah on August 22, 2021, 06:24:24 pm
Batten down the hatches everybody! A twister's coming through!

The cyclone rages through the Gale family farm and picks up the whole farmhouse, dumping it square in the middle of the land of Oz.

Birds sing. Munchkins dance. Everything is in technicolor and there's a pretty yellow brick road winding through the town. All is well... except for that pair of shiny shoes poking out from underneath the house...

Vote Count 1.1

Dylan32 (1): Glooble
LaLight (1): iguanaiguana
faust (2):  Awaclus, 2.71828.....
iguanaiguana (1): pubby
Awaclus (1): MiX
pubby (1): mathdude
mathdude (1): faust

Not voting (5): Swowl, Dylan32, WestCoastDidds, EFHW, Galzria

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to exile. I never told you guys how long days and nights were going to be. We're going for five-day days and 48 hour nights. Which means day 1 ends at 7 pm on Thursday, forum time.



Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: pubby on August 22, 2021, 07:00:21 pm
I don't think we're in Kansas anymore, etc etc
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: EFHW on August 22, 2021, 07:59:45 pm
Short days!

@e, what made you think of massclaim, anyway? They are usually disasters for town Day 1.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: WestCoastDidds on August 22, 2021, 08:05:57 pm
Short days!

@e, what made you think of massclaim, anyway? They are usually disasters for town Day 1.

Iíve never seen it actually happen but I can imagine the disastrous scenarios. The one thing different in this game might be that I think our flavor names are unique and there probably isnít a huge pool of possibly fake names since the WOOz is such a familiar text. I donít think this reason is good enough to advocate for it, but it does seem different than the games weíve played that are less tied to flavor.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on August 22, 2021, 08:12:50 pm
I definitely felt like I was an IC because my flavor had to be in the game, and be town.

But like, of course scum have fake claims.

Maybe it would make sense to advocate for massclaim if anyone has an actual way to benefit from it?
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: iguanaiguana on August 22, 2021, 08:52:44 pm
Hypothetically, if we mass claim, then scum knows who is the doctor to roleblock and who is the tracker to shoot D1 and who is the vigilante to redirect onto the IC and we're screwed. We never get to catch scum out on their lying D1 claims because they know all of our powers and how to thwart them while we still know nothing real about them.

Mass claim is bad.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: WestCoastDidds on August 22, 2021, 09:02:41 pm
I definitely felt like I was an IC because my flavor had to be in the game, and be town.

But like, of course scum have fake claims.

Maybe it would make sense to advocate for massclaim if anyone has an actual way to benefit from it?

I donít see what the benefit would beÖ.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Dylan32 on August 22, 2021, 09:06:28 pm
Hypothetically, if we mass claim, then scum knows who is the doctor to roleblock and who is the tracker to shoot D1 and who is the vigilante to redirect onto the IC and we're screwed. We never get to catch scum out on their lying D1 claims because they know all of our powers and how to thwart them while we still know nothing real about them.

Mass claim is bad.

A lot of assumptions (knowledge?) about what powers scum has here; probably means nothing, but I wanted to note it for later just in case. Besides that, I agree.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: iguanaiguana on August 22, 2021, 09:07:38 pm
Hypothetically, if we mass claim, then scum knows who is the doctor to roleblock and who is the tracker to shoot D1 and who is the vigilante to redirect onto the IC and we're screwed. We never get to catch scum out on their lying D1 claims because they know all of our powers and how to thwart them while we still know nothing real about them.

Mass claim is bad.

A lot of assumptions (knowledge?) about what powers scum has here; probably means nothing, but I wanted to note it for later just in case. Besides that, I agree.

Just a hypothetical with random stereotypical made up powers for both alignments
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Glooble on August 22, 2021, 10:09:52 pm
Day 1 mass claim is a bad plan.

Getting some wagons started early is a good plan.

vote: pubby for reasons.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: faust on August 23, 2021, 12:46:20 am
@e, what made you think of massclaim, anyway? They are usually disasters for town Day 1.
What do you think this question will accomplish?
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: faust on August 23, 2021, 12:48:11 am
I also feel compelled to say that I will be VLA from August 27 - September 4. I thought that was okay, but with the shorter days it's going to be a bigger portion of the game unfortunately.

I'll still be able to check in, but my activity definitely will suffer.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: 2.71828..... on August 23, 2021, 02:04:40 am
See, I told you all advocating for a mass claim would be silly
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: 2.71828..... on August 23, 2021, 02:05:16 am
Day 1 mass claim is a bad plan.

Getting some wagons started early is a good plan.

vote: pubby for reasons.

I don't like your reasons

Vote: Glooble
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: 2.71828..... on August 23, 2021, 02:10:23 am
Short days!

@e, what made you think of massclaim, anyway? They are usually disasters for town Day 1.

I like to know things.

But also, short days! Huge fan, we just can't get off to a lethargic start.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Awaclus on August 23, 2021, 02:20:04 am
I like Glooble's reasons.

Vote: e
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: 2.71828..... on August 23, 2021, 02:24:47 am
I like Glooble's reasons.

Vote: e

Yet you vote for me, not pubby
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Awaclus on August 23, 2021, 02:30:22 am
I like Glooble's reasons.

Vote: e

Yet you vote for me, not pubby

I like my reasons more.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: faust on August 23, 2021, 05:26:47 am
"Mass claim bad" is the most standard boring comment anyone could make. It's correct, but it doesn't help in any way and it's an easy way to look as though you are contributing to the discussion.

Vote: iguana
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: faust on August 23, 2021, 05:29:03 am
See, I told you all advocating for a mass claim would be silly
I would make a comment about you are conveniently trying to absolve yourself from responsibility for what you posted, but first I am going to wait and see how this post is received.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on August 23, 2021, 05:39:59 am
I like Glooble's reasons.

Vote: e

I like Awaclus' reasons.

Vote: e
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: 2.71828..... on August 23, 2021, 05:48:26 am
See, I told you all advocating for a mass claim would be silly
I would make a comment about you are conveniently trying to absolve yourself from responsibility for what you posted, but first I am going to wait and see how this post is received.

Take responsibility for initiating the end of RVS? I take full responsibility.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: 2.71828..... on August 23, 2021, 05:54:37 am
See, I told you all advocating for a mass claim would be silly
I would make a comment about you are conveniently trying to absolve yourself from responsibility for what you posted, but first I am going to wait and see how this post is received.

Also, what exactly do you think I should be taking responsibility for?
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: faust on August 23, 2021, 05:58:46 am
See, I told you all advocating for a mass claim would be silly
I would make a comment about you are conveniently trying to absolve yourself from responsibility for what you posted, but first I am going to wait and see how this post is received.

Also, what exactly do you think I should be taking responsibility for?
Floating the idea of a massclaim, which usually leads to nothing could but can have the effect of people revealing information about their roles.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: faust on August 23, 2021, 05:59:07 am
See, I told you all advocating for a mass claim would be silly
I would make a comment about you are conveniently trying to absolve yourself from responsibility for what you posted, but first I am going to wait and see how this post is received.

Also, what exactly do you think I should be taking responsibility for?
Floating the idea of a massclaim, which usually leads to nothing couldgood but can have the effect of people revealing information about their roles.
EBWOP
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: faust on August 23, 2021, 06:03:49 am
See, I told you all advocating for a mass claim would be silly
I would make a comment about you are conveniently trying to absolve yourself from responsibility for what you posted, but first I am going to wait and see how this post is received.

Take responsibility for initiating the end of RVS? I take full responsibility.
I'm pretty sure RVS was already over by the time you made your massclaim comment.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on August 23, 2021, 06:11:09 am
See, I told you all advocating for a mass claim would be silly
I would make a comment about you are conveniently trying to absolve yourself from responsibility for what you posted, but first I am going to wait and see how this post is received.

Take responsibility for initiating the end of RVS? I take full responsibility.
I'm pretty sure RVS was already over by the time you made your massclaim comment.

I disagree.

Did you have a particular non-RVS vote in mind when you said this? If so, can you show it to me?
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Awaclus on August 23, 2021, 06:16:09 am
Did you have a particular non-RVS vote in mind when you said this? If so, can you show it to me?

Nobody was casting votes at that time, but the discussion was already moving out of RVS.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on August 23, 2021, 06:20:21 am
Vote: mathdude

This is the only post that uses previous posts to do something (other than mine) that was made before e's massclaim post.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: faust on August 23, 2021, 06:24:41 am
See, I told you all advocating for a mass claim would be silly
I would make a comment about you are conveniently trying to absolve yourself from responsibility for what you posted, but first I am going to wait and see how this post is received.

Take responsibility for initiating the end of RVS? I take full responsibility.
I'm pretty sure RVS was already over by the time you made your massclaim comment.

I disagree.

Did you have a particular non-RVS vote in mind when you said this? If so, can you show it to me?
You pointed out my vote and yours, which were both non-RVS. I cannot speak to mathdude's vote on pubby, which was in between, and may or may not have been RVS.

Furthermore, when e posted, it had been 10 posts without a vote. Not much of a random voting stage if noone's voting.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: 2.71828..... on August 23, 2021, 06:25:21 am
RVS is such a squishy category.

Also, D1 you just need things to react to.

Hot take: I thought all the comments about "oh I am so happy MiX is IC" were overboard. I bet we find scum there.
Dylan
Galzria
mathdude
WCD
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on August 23, 2021, 06:26:33 am
RVS is such a squishy category.

Also, D1 you just need things to react to.

Hot take: I thought all the comments about "oh I am so happy MiX is IC" were overboard. I bet we find scum there.
Dylan
Galzria
mathdude
WCD

I think they're all town.

Which one do you think is scummiest, based on their response to me being IC?
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: faust on August 23, 2021, 06:28:01 am
Did you have a particular non-RVS vote in mind when you said this? If so, can you show it to me?

Nobody was casting votes at that time, but the discussion was already moving out of RVS.
I find it irritating that Awaclus of all people is jumping in to answer questions not addressed to him.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: 2.71828..... on August 23, 2021, 06:32:59 am
RVS is such a squishy category.

Also, D1 you just need things to react to.

Hot take: I thought all the comments about "oh I am so happy MiX is IC" were overboard. I bet we find scum there.
Dylan
Galzria
mathdude
WCD

I think they're all town.

Which one do you think is scummiest, based on their response to me being IC?

Dylan and math basically said the same thing, both felt the scummiest
Galzria was making a joke, which we all know is scummy
WCD's was classic WCD, she is town

I will go with math being scum if I had to pick one
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on August 23, 2021, 06:39:39 am
I'll follow your gut.

Vote: Galzria

Galzria, do you have any reads?
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: EFHW on August 23, 2021, 07:28:22 am
@e, what made you think of massclaim, anyway? They are usually disasters for town Day 1.
What do you think this question will accomplish?
Mostly keep him talking. If he has some scummy scheme in mind, then let him dig himself deeper. What did you think I was intending?
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: EFHW on August 23, 2021, 07:34:03 am
RVS is such a squishy category.

Also, D1 you just need things to react to.

Hot take: I thought all the comments about "oh I am so happy MiX is IC" were overboard. I bet we find scum there.
Dylan
Galzria
mathdude
WCD
I said this, too.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: 2.71828..... on August 23, 2021, 07:54:24 am
RVS is such a squishy category.

Also, D1 you just need things to react to.

Hot take: I thought all the comments about "oh I am so happy MiX is IC" were overboard. I bet we find scum there.
Dylan
Galzria
mathdude
WCD
I said this, too.

Ah, yes. I see. You quoted and agreed with Dylan's post. I apologize for missing you

Vote: EFHW
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: faust on August 23, 2021, 07:55:03 am
@e, what made you think of massclaim, anyway? They are usually disasters for town Day 1.
What do you think this question will accomplish?
Mostly keep him talking. If he has some scummy scheme in mind, then let him dig himself deeper. What did you think I was intending?
I don't know, that's why I was asking.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: EFHW on August 23, 2021, 09:02:19 am
RVS is such a squishy category.

Also, D1 you just need things to react to.

Hot take: I thought all the comments about "oh I am so happy MiX is IC" were overboard. I bet we find scum there.
Dylan
Galzria
mathdude
WCD
I said this, too.

Ah, yes. I see. You quoted and agreed with Dylan's post. I apologize for missing you

Vote: EFHW
I hate being left out  :P
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: EFHW on August 23, 2021, 09:04:03 am
@e, what made you think of massclaim, anyway? They are usually disasters for town Day 1.
What do you think this question will accomplish?
Mostly keep him talking. If he has some scummy scheme in mind, then let him dig himself deeper. What did you think I was intending?
I don't know, that's why I was asking.
And what do you think now?
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: WestCoastDidds on August 23, 2021, 10:24:05 am
vote: Swowl

where you at, homie?
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on August 23, 2021, 10:30:27 am
Howdy.
Can confirm I am camping for a few days, but should have someeeeee access.
Can confirm random nostalgic convo with Galz about II right before he joined.

Welcome back iguana.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: faust on August 23, 2021, 10:48:06 am
@e, what made you think of massclaim, anyway? They are usually disasters for town Day 1.
What do you think this question will accomplish?
Mostly keep him talking. If he has some scummy scheme in mind, then let him dig himself deeper. What did you think I was intending?
I don't know, that's why I was asking.
And what do you think now?
I think that maybe it wasn't an attempt at rolefishing, but I'm not completely convinced.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: jotheonah on August 23, 2021, 11:10:56 am
"Oh my!" says Dorothy, looking down at the two shoes poking out from under the house. "I didn't mean to drop my house on anyone!"

"But you have!" replies a voice from waist height. "And as the Mayor of the Munchkin City, it is my duty to investigate this unfortunate residenceicide!"

Suddenly munchkins start appearing from all around.

"We will discover whose feet these are... and then we'll investigate who's to blame!"



Vote Count 1.2

iguanaiguana (2): pubby, faust
pubby (2): mathdude, Glooble
EFHW (1): 2.71828....
2.71828.... (1): Awaclus
Galzria (1): MiX
Swowl (1): WestCoastDidds

Not voting (5): Swowl, Dylan32, Galzria, EFHW, iguanaiguana

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to exile. Day 1 ends at 7 pm on Thursday, forum time.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: iguanaiguana on August 23, 2021, 12:06:06 pm
Ok, time for an embarassing post.

Lalight is not playing :(

I just realized this... right now. I think when I cast my first vote, I had just scanned the players and saw LL's name. Then for some reason Joth decided to make my vote for his comod count in the vote totals... which validated my feelings of LL playing this game. Today I looked to try to figure out why he hadn't posted yet... and ... yeah... Lol, I failed.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on August 23, 2021, 12:07:32 pm
Ok, time for an embarassing post.

Lalight is not playing :(

I just realized this... right now. I think when I cast my first vote, I had just scanned the players and saw LL's name. Then for some reason Joth decided to make my vote for his comod count in the vote totals... which validated my feelings of LL playing this game. Today I looked to try to figure out why he hadn't posted yet... and ... yeah... Lol, I failed.

Don't worry, I don't think joth knew LL wasn't playing either.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: iguanaiguana on August 23, 2021, 12:15:08 pm
Looks like the closest things to wagons are on me and pubby.

The only reason I see to vote pubby is OMGUS and maybe he hasn't posted much information.

I'm not worried about faust voting me. He reads me fine and will see I am town!iguana soon enough.

I actually like the Awaclus vote best. Admittedly my vote is based on Awaclus meta that is three years out of date. But I am finding him to be eerily eager to be helpful compared to what I had come to expect from town!Awaclus.

Vote: Awaclus
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: jotheonah on August 23, 2021, 12:17:50 pm
Oops. Updating that vote count now.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Awaclus on August 23, 2021, 12:57:54 pm
I actually like the Awaclus vote best. Admittedly my vote is based on Awaclus meta that is three years out of date. But I am finding him to be eerily eager to be helpful compared to what I had come to expect from town!Awaclus.

I was always helpful.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Swowl on August 23, 2021, 03:08:18 pm
Prod dodge. Still camping til tomorrow morning.

Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: mathdude on August 23, 2021, 03:49:42 pm
RVS is such a squishy category.

Also, D1 you just need things to react to.

Hot take: I thought all the comments about "oh I am so happy MiX is IC" were overboard. I bet we find scum there.
Dylan
Galzria
mathdude
WCD

Ordinarily, I would say there might be something to go on here. But looking at who is on the list, and my limited experience here, and the interactions between such people and MiX (including EFHW, added to this list later)... none of these comments surprise me.  Are you trying to drum up trouble where there isn't any?

I'm not saying that while list is town. Just that the comments about IC!MiX don't ring any scum bells to me.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: mathdude on August 23, 2021, 03:51:17 pm
Did you have a particular non-RVS vote in mind when you said this? If so, can you show it to me?

Nobody was casting votes at that time, but the discussion was already moving out of RVS.
I find it irritating that Awaclus of all people is jumping in to answer questions not addressed to him.

I find it interesting that faust is jumping on someone who is participating in a discussion. Maybe there's history there I'm not aware of.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: faust on August 23, 2021, 04:15:20 pm
Did you have a particular non-RVS vote in mind when you said this? If so, can you show it to me?

Nobody was casting votes at that time, but the discussion was already moving out of RVS.
I find it irritating that Awaclus of all people is jumping in to answer questions not addressed to him.

I find it interesting that faust is jumping on someone who is participating in a discussion. Maybe there's history there I'm not aware of.
I have definitely always complained when people answered questions that weren't meant for them. And it's particularly strange from Awaclus. Also, are you not the one jumping on Awaclus?
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: faust on August 23, 2021, 04:16:13 pm
Ah no sorry, that last part isn't true, I got confused.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: WestCoastDidds on August 23, 2021, 05:02:35 pm
Ok, time for an embarassing post.

Lalight is not playing :(

I just realized this... right now. I think when I cast my first vote, I had just scanned the players and saw LL's name. Then for some reason Joth decided to make my vote for his comod count in the vote totals... which validated my feelings of LL playing this game. Today I looked to try to figure out why he hadn't posted yet... and ... yeah... Lol, I failed.

This is hilarious. I assumed you were doing it to be funny and as a way of saying hi to him. Iím quite certain that at some point in this game, someone will vote for Joth because he always deserves it. But this is just funny.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: WestCoastDidds on August 23, 2021, 05:03:44 pm
It took me a minute to find the game because itís been pinned to the top instead of appearing below the pinned posts, is that on purpose??
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: pubby on August 23, 2021, 05:32:14 pm
Ok, time for an embarassing post.

Lalight is not playing :(

I just realized this... right now. I think when I cast my first vote, I had just scanned the players and saw LL's name. Then for some reason Joth decided to make my vote for his comod count in the vote totals... which validated my feelings of LL playing this game. Today I looked to try to figure out why he hadn't posted yet... and ... yeah... Lol, I failed.
In other words you felt obligated to vote for someone in your opening post and didn't care who. Scummy much?
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Galzria on August 23, 2021, 05:46:37 pm
I'll follow your gut.

Vote: Galzria

Galzria, do you have any reads?

Iím trying to decide how I feel about e! in re: to his half lobbed idea to mass claim. My gut says itís scummy because even if we donít do it, itís encouraging slip ups and hints in just the way itís argued for/against. But then my brain says scum doesnít really care enough in an RMM to push it, or even throw it out there.

I also thought faust was uncharacteristic in his response to an RVS vote, which I feel like he generally just ignores entirely as town (I feel like town faust puts more effort into developing reads than he does responding to / caring about random votes on himself) - but it was early RVS and itís not like there was anything substantial for him to be doing so itís not really a big thing.

Beyond that:

Vote: WCD

I think scum!Didds is more likely to forget Swowl was posted VLA (by both me and then himself), and the vote on Swowl, given their previous games together, feels like an intentionally aimed vote to show participation without actually engaging. It has a ďIíve got to make sure I vote Swowl D1 or heíll be suspicious of me for not going at himĒ type vibe, and I could see scum!Didds overlooking the VLA while making sure to get that vote in.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on August 23, 2021, 05:50:05 pm
I think scum!Didds is more likely to forget Swowl was posted VLA (by both me and then himself), and the vote on Swowl, given their previous games together, feels like an intentionally aimed vote to show participation without actually engaging. It has a ďIíve got to make sure I vote Swowl D1 or heíll be suspicious of me for not going at himĒ type vibe, and I could see scum!Didds overlooking the VLA while making sure to get that vote in.

Swowl, can you confirm this is the case?
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on August 23, 2021, 06:59:15 pm
IC!MiX says: it's time to do your part! I have set up my readlist, have you?

Vote: Glooble
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: WestCoastDidds on August 23, 2021, 07:08:55 pm
I think scum!Didds is more likely to forget Swowl was posted VLA (by both me and then himself), and the vote on Swowl, given their previous games together, feels like an intentionally aimed vote to show participation without actually engaging. It has a ďIíve got to make sure I vote Swowl D1 or heíll be suspicious of me for not going at himĒ type vibe, and I could see scum!Didds overlooking the VLA while making sure to get that vote in.

Swowl, can you confirm this is the case?

I am not answer for Swowl. But I can tell you that Galz is on the good drugs. I literally never go after Swowl D1. I donít have a move like that in my repertoire So, heís surely not going to rib me for not doing it. And I didnít space on the VLA. Galz said ďweekendĒ and itís Monday.  That Galz is trying to gin up a charge built on a history he created for me is way shadier than anything heís accusing me of.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: WestCoastDidds on August 23, 2021, 07:10:55 pm
Oh, Galz did say Swan would be back on Tuesday. My mistake. All the rest of his ďcaseĒ is still a fabrication though.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: WestCoastDidds on August 23, 2021, 07:42:28 pm
While I donít have a usual D1 target (except maybe Joseph?), Galz going after me is very on brand.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Galzria on August 23, 2021, 07:45:31 pm
What was the last game you didnít have a QT with Swowl, that he didnít host (which you would still have a QT with him inÖ)?

Iím not saying you donít have one here, I have no idea, but the odds are generally against it and your vote felt like fake interaction, especially because of the stated VLA.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Glooble on August 23, 2021, 08:09:09 pm
Hypothetically, if we mass claim, then scum knows who is the doctor to roleblock and who is the tracker to shoot D1 and who is the vigilante to redirect onto the IC and we're screwed. We never get to catch scum out on their lying D1 claims because they know all of our powers and how to thwart them while we still know nothing real about them.

Mass claim is bad.

A lot of assumptions (knowledge?) about what powers scum has here; probably means nothing, but I wanted to note it for later just in case. Besides that, I agree.

I think this post from Dylan is a little bit scummy. It seems disingenuous to me. Iguana is clearly using hypothetical examples to make a point, and implying that he's somehow letting his secret setup knowledge slip is... weird.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Glooble on August 23, 2021, 08:13:10 pm
See, I told you all advocating for a mass claim would be silly
I would make a comment about you are conveniently trying to absolve yourself from responsibility for what you posted, but first I am going to wait and see how this post is received.

Also, what exactly do you think I should be taking responsibility for?
Floating the idea of a massclaim, which usually leads to nothing could but can have the effect of people revealing information about their roles.

I also think this post from faust is a little off. The idea of a day one mass claim is so against the grain that nobody is going to say "ooh, great idea! I'm the cop!" without coming to a group consensus. I fail to see how e's suggestion could have led to anyone leaking information about their roles.

I'll join the faust wagon, I guess. That's a thing, right?

vote: faust

Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: iguanaiguana on August 23, 2021, 08:18:31 pm
Ok, time for an embarassing post.

Lalight is not playing :(

I just realized this... right now. I think when I cast my first vote, I had just scanned the players and saw LL's name. Then for some reason Joth decided to make my vote for his comod count in the vote totals... which validated my feelings of LL playing this game. Today I looked to try to figure out why he hadn't posted yet... and ... yeah... Lol, I failed.
In other words you felt obligated to vote for someone in your opening post and didn't care who. Scummy much?

No, I RVS'd Lalight because when I chose to come back after three years and /inned a game, LL was the one who expressed excitement about me coming back. That made him an emotionally comfortable person to RVS because he was nice to me. I just didn't realize that he wasn't playing in this game and those posts werent part of this pre game because I signed up for this months ago.

I didn't feel obligated to RVS. I usually do though because voting creates interactions and helps D1 not to suck as much. I mean, look at this fun interaction we're having right now because of it!
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: EFHW on August 23, 2021, 08:23:09 pm
@e, what made you think of massclaim, anyway? They are usually disasters for town Day 1.
What do you think this question will accomplish?
Mostly keep him talking. If he has some scummy scheme in mind, then let him dig himself deeper. What did you think I was intending?
I don't know, that's why I was asking.
And what do you think now?
I think that maybe it wasn't an attempt at rolefishing, but I'm not completely convinced.
I was trusting town!e to know what not to say, while challenging a possible scum!e to commit himself further. There was a spate of games some years back where it seemed that people were role-slipping left and right. I think we had a bunch of inexperienced players then, and e does not fit that description.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: EFHW on August 23, 2021, 08:27:02 pm
Ok, time for an embarassing post.

Lalight is not playing :(

I just realized this... right now. I think when I cast my first vote, I had just scanned the players and saw LL's name. Then for some reason Joth decided to make my vote for his comod count in the vote totals... which validated my feelings of LL playing this game. Today I looked to try to figure out why he hadn't posted yet... and ... yeah... Lol, I failed.
In other words you felt obligated to vote for someone in your opening post and didn't care who. Scummy much?

I feel like there is an unusual amount of opportunistic shading going on in this game so far. I liked pubby's previous post, though. I felt like he read my intentions pretty well.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on August 23, 2021, 08:35:03 pm
What was the last game you didnít have a QT with Swowl, that he didnít host (which you would still have a QT with him inÖ)?

Iím not saying you donít have one here, I have no idea, but the odds are generally against it and your vote felt like fake interaction, especially because of the stated VLA.

What does the QT have to do with anything? Can you elaborate?
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: WestCoastDidds on August 23, 2021, 08:37:14 pm
What was the last game you didnít have a QT with Swowl, that he didnít host (which you would still have a QT with him inÖ)?

Iím not saying you donít have one here, I have no idea, but the odds are generally against it and your vote felt like fake interaction, especially because of the stated VLA.

Iím not following. Why do my previous QTs that he was in mean that Iíd need to start by going after him because ďIíve got to make sure I vote Swowl D1 or heíll be suspicious of me for not going after himĒ? That just doesnít make any sense to me.

I am looking forward to playing with him again, along with you, MiX, faust, and EFHW. Well, everyone really, because I think of you as friends, but even more so with those folks. So, there is genuine enthusiasm, but it wasnít forced. I realized he was VLA, I just thought it was for the weekend not Tuesday. But whatevs. Once you get an idea in your head, I just get frustrated when you dig in.

All in all reality, and in light of our pretty solid record of misexiles on D1, unless something really dramatic happens in the next three days, I will probably advocate for no exile because a good Ďole Joth RMM is going to have night powers that are more interesting and important than what weíre doing D1. Iím not there yet because Iím thinking about when we caught Joth in Memento (although that was D2, I just reminded myselfÖit felt like D2 because I couldnít vote D1.)

PPE : MiX
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: iguanaiguana on August 23, 2021, 08:50:34 pm
I don't like voting for pubby, Faust, Galzria, Glooble...maybe also e and Dylan.

These players have made reasoned cases and have backed them up with at least one vote. That doesn't make them all town, but it's a towny thing to do. Scum would rather not have reads and votes that can expose them on D3+ flying around on D1.

I still like Awaclus. But I will look if anyone else has more than one vote.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: iguanaiguana on August 23, 2021, 08:57:23 pm
WCD, who is scum to you?
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Dylan32 on August 23, 2021, 11:59:52 pm
Hypothetically, if we mass claim, then scum knows who is the doctor to roleblock and who is the tracker to shoot D1 and who is the vigilante to redirect onto the IC and we're screwed. We never get to catch scum out on their lying D1 claims because they know all of our powers and how to thwart them while we still know nothing real about them.

Mass claim is bad.

A lot of assumptions (knowledge?) about what powers scum has here; probably means nothing, but I wanted to note it for later just in case. Besides that, I agree.

I think this post from Dylan is a little bit scummy. It seems disingenuous to me. Iguana is clearly using hypothetical examples to make a point, and implying that he's somehow letting his secret setup knowledge slip is... weird.

Meh, that was just the first thing I had seen that stuck out as even remotely alignment indicative, even though like I said it is most likely nothing. The reason it even remotely pinged as maybe something was the total lack of any direct hypothetical language, like no "if" or "might" or "maybe" was used at all, which is fairly normal for hypothetical things like that. On a balance, I agree it is way more likely that it was truly hypothetical, but since there's a nonzero chance it was something, I pointed it out.

See, I told you all advocating for a mass claim would be silly
I would make a comment about you are conveniently trying to absolve yourself from responsibility for what you posted, but first I am going to wait and see how this post is received.

Also, what exactly do you think I should be taking responsibility for?
Floating the idea of a massclaim, which usually leads to nothing could but can have the effect of people revealing information about their roles.

--snip-- I fail to see how e's suggestion could have led to anyone leaking information about their roles.

--snip--

I won't say what info can be gained from it in order to not give you any tips if you are scum and haven't figured it out, but simply put, even if nobody leaks anything detailed enough for someone to figure out "so-and-so is a watcher" or something like that, scum can get information based on people's reactions that could help them target roles that would be worse for town to lose.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Awaclus on August 24, 2021, 02:01:29 am
I have definitely always complained when people answered questions that weren't meant for them. And it's particularly strange from Awaclus.

Why is it particularly strange from me? I probably do it more than the average person.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Awaclus on August 24, 2021, 02:06:46 am
I still like Awaclus.

I like you too <3
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Awaclus on August 24, 2021, 02:10:05 am
I also think this post from faust is a little off. The idea of a day one mass claim is so against the grain that nobody is going to say "ooh, great idea! I'm the cop!" without coming to a group consensus. I fail to see how e's suggestion could have led to anyone leaking information about their roles.

Nobody is going to say "ooh, great idea! I'm the cop!", but someone could say "ooh, awful idea! I definitely don't think we should massclaim this game!" and then everyone would know that was the cop.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: faust on August 24, 2021, 03:25:49 am
I have definitely always complained when people answered questions that weren't meant for them. And it's particularly strange from Awaclus.

Why is it particularly strange from me? I probably do it more than the average person.
I perceive you as a player that put an above-average amount of thought into each word that you post. And if you put thought in to whether it's a good idea to answer questions meant for other players, I figure you would arrive at the conclusion that it's hurtful to town.

I also think this post from faust is a little off. The idea of a day one mass claim is so against the grain that nobody is going to say "ooh, great idea! I'm the cop!" without coming to a group consensus. I fail to see how e's suggestion could have led to anyone leaking information about their roles.

Nobody is going to say "ooh, great idea! I'm the cop!", but someone could say "ooh, awful idea! I definitely don't think we should massclaim this game!" and then everyone would know that was the cop.
This is the perfect example of what I am talking about. I was about to make that point, but now it is impossible to tell whether that is really what I intended or whether I just opportunistically supported your reasoning. There is no more need for me to put my thoughts into my own words, and so the answer to the question is way less helpful to Glooble trying to figure out my alignment.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: faust on August 24, 2021, 03:29:15 am
I do have an additional remark on why talking about massclaims is bad.

As Awaclus pointed out, stating your preference pro or anti massclaim possibly in itself reveals role info because some roles benefit or suffer disproportionately from a massclaim.

One might counter this by saying "well town should just answer without regard for their role". Which is saying, town should be disingenuous and do the thing that scum is also trying to do. This causes town to behave in a scum-like manner and thus muddies the water for scumhunting.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: faust on August 24, 2021, 03:34:02 am
I was trusting town!e to know what not to say, while challenging a possible scum!e to commit himself further. There was a spate of games some years back where it seemed that people were role-slipping left and right. I think we had a bunch of inexperienced players then, and e does not fit that description.
This post has the same underlying issue that I pointed out above. Basically you're asking town!e to be a bit disingenuous, and thus the answer he gives will likely look scummy no matter his alignment.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: faust on August 24, 2021, 03:43:16 am
I think scum!Didds is more likely to forget Swowl was posted VLA
I think that sort of thing is quite the stretch. My default assumption is that scum pays more attention to the game, not less.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: faust on August 24, 2021, 03:47:18 am
I think I'm back to

Vote: mathdude

for now.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Awaclus on August 24, 2021, 03:50:43 am
I perceive you as a player that put an above-average amount of thought into each word that you post. And if you put thought in to whether it's a good idea to answer questions meant for other players, I figure you would arrive at the conclusion that it's hurtful to town.

I understand that it's harmful to town in some cases, but in some other cases, getting the question answered furthers the game and it doesn't really matter who does it.

This is the perfect example of what I am talking about. I was about to make that point, but now it is impossible to tell whether that is really what I intended or whether I just opportunistically supported your reasoning. There is no more need for me to put my thoughts into my own words, and so the answer to the question is way less helpful to Glooble trying to figure out my alignment.

Yeah, that is a pretty good example. In this case, I did not have any hopes of any useful info regarding your alignment coming out of you answering the question yourself. I fully trust you were going to make that argument anyway and it doesn't make me think you're at all more likely to be town.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: faust on August 24, 2021, 06:12:08 am
I perceive you as a player that put an above-average amount of thought into each word that you post. And if you put thought in to whether it's a good idea to answer questions meant for other players, I figure you would arrive at the conclusion that it's hurtful to town.

I understand that it's harmful to town in some cases, but in some other cases, getting the question answered furthers the game and it doesn't really matter who does it.

This is the perfect example of what I am talking about. I was about to make that point, but now it is impossible to tell whether that is really what I intended or whether I just opportunistically supported your reasoning. There is no more need for me to put my thoughts into my own words, and so the answer to the question is way less helpful to Glooble trying to figure out my alignment.

Yeah, that is a pretty good example. In this case, I did not have any hopes of any useful info regarding your alignment coming out of you answering the question yourself. I fully trust you were going to make that argument anyway and it doesn't make me think you're at all more likely to be town.
That mindset seems a bit arrogant to me. You might not have hopes of useful info coming out of this, but presumably the person asking the question had, or otherwise they would not have asked. You make yourself the arbiter of what is and isn't a useful question.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Awaclus on August 24, 2021, 06:35:57 am
That mindset seems a bit arrogant to me. You might not have hopes of useful info coming out of this, but presumably the person asking the question had, or otherwise they would not have asked. You make yourself the arbiter of what is and isn't a useful question.

Glooble didn't see why the massclaim suggestion could have led to information being leaked, I helped him see why. It was a useful question and a useful answer. If Glooble did in fact see why, and was only pretending in order to hear your explanation, then I misunderstood what he was trying to do.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: WestCoastDidds on August 24, 2021, 07:10:40 am
WCD, who is scum to you?

I dunno. (And I donít think anyone else really does either, except scum obvi). There is a pretty long list of folks who I think are towny. Mathdude, Dylan, and Galz are not on that list. And Iím not sure what I think of the current faust/Awaclus discussion.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Glooble on August 24, 2021, 08:25:11 am

One might counter this by saying "well town should just answer without regard for their role". Which is saying, town should be disingenuous and do the thing that scum is also trying to do. This causes town to behave in a scum-like manner and thus muddies the water for scumhunting.

I don't personally think my opinion on a particular strategy is affected in anyway whatsoever by my current role. I would always think about it in the context of any roles that could theoretically be in the game, and I would expect the same of any town player. I don't see how that's disingenuous.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on August 24, 2021, 08:30:10 am

One might counter this by saying "well town should just answer without regard for their role". Which is saying, town should be disingenuous and do the thing that scum is also trying to do. This causes town to behave in a scum-like manner and thus muddies the water for scumhunting.

I don't personally think my opinion on a particular strategy is affected in anyway whatsoever by my current role. I would always think about it in the context of any roles that could theoretically be in the game, and I would expect the same of any town player. I don't see how that's disingenuous.

...Which means it's useless when you're trying to scumread people. It's noise at worse.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: faust on August 24, 2021, 08:37:16 am

One might counter this by saying "well town should just answer without regard for their role". Which is saying, town should be disingenuous and do the thing that scum is also trying to do. This causes town to behave in a scum-like manner and thus muddies the water for scumhunting.

I don't personally think my opinion on a particular strategy is affected in anyway whatsoever by my current role. I would always think about it in the context of any roles that could theoretically be in the game, and I would expect the same of any town player. I don't see how that's disingenuous.
Seems strange not to take knowledge into account. You could have a role that says "if you target the Tracker, town wins". Surely that would influence your opinion on claiming. That is a ridiculously extreme example, but any role has a preference on knowing/not knowing roles to a lesser extent. If you don't take into account the knowledge that you have then you're not playing optimally.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Glooble on August 24, 2021, 09:11:45 am

One might counter this by saying "well town should just answer without regard for their role". Which is saying, town should be disingenuous and do the thing that scum is also trying to do. This causes town to behave in a scum-like manner and thus muddies the water for scumhunting.

I don't personally think my opinion on a particular strategy is affected in anyway whatsoever by my current role. I would always think about it in the context of any roles that could theoretically be in the game, and I would expect the same of any town player. I don't see how that's disingenuous.
Seems strange not to take knowledge into account. You could have a role that says "if you target the Tracker, town wins". Surely that would influence your opinion on claiming. That is a ridiculously extreme example, but any role has a preference on knowing/not knowing roles to a lesser extent. If you don't take into account the knowledge that you have then you're not playing optimally.

I disagree. Even if I know that my own role benefits from or suffers from a mass claim, I don't know how scum are going to benefit or how that info might hurt other townies. I think considering your own role without thinking about what other roles might be in the game isn't playing optimally.

But whatever. We play the game differently, that's fine. You've convinced me that your objection wasn't alignment-indicative.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: faust on August 24, 2021, 10:04:07 am
Yeah let's move on.

I've noticed that Dylan has also chimed in on the issue. Hey Dylan, do you feel like also sharing some reads? Do you think Glooble is scummy for voting for me?
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Dylan32 on August 24, 2021, 12:03:03 pm

One might counter this by saying "well town should just answer without regard for their role". Which is saying, town should be disingenuous and do the thing that scum is also trying to do. This causes town to behave in a scum-like manner and thus muddies the water for scumhunting.

I don't personally think my opinion on a particular strategy is affected in anyway whatsoever by my current role. I would always think about it in the context of any roles that could theoretically be in the game, and I would expect the same of any town player. I don't see how that's disingenuous.
Seems strange not to take knowledge into account. You could have a role that says "if you target the Tracker, town wins". Surely that would influence your opinion on claiming. That is a ridiculously extreme example, but any role has a preference on knowing/not knowing roles to a lesser extent. If you don't take into account the knowledge that you have then you're not playing optimally.

I disagree. Even if I know that my own role benefits from or suffers from a mass claim, I don't know how scum are going to benefit or how that info might hurt other townies. I think considering your own role without thinking about what other roles might be in the game isn't playing optimally.

But whatever. We play the game differently, that's fine. You've convinced me that your objection wasn't alignment-indicative.

Yeah let's move on.

I've noticed that Dylan has also chimed in on the issue. Hey Dylan, do you feel like also sharing some reads? Do you think Glooble is scummy for voting for me?

I mean, yeah, I had responded to Glooble not getting how scum could benefit first but tried to leave it vague, but since you (faust) and Awaclus already went more in depth, I will too since it seems like Glooble is not getting why this whole thing could be bad. Glooble, it doesn't really have anything to do with what other roles other people might have, its that on average people with roles that would be worse to reveal D1 (like investigative roles and stuff) are more likely to be more strongly against the mass claim, while people with more expendable roles or ones that could actually benefit from being claimed and not countered early (I guess like masons could fit here) might be more open to the idea, even if they don't explicitly support it. Scum could then take people's responses and make more informed guesses about which bucket people might be in when prioritizing the NK and other actions.

So then you are left with town, in order to not leak info like this, being forced to respond completely independently of their role, which--like faust said in his first response to you--would be disingenuous. That's why it's bad; it has nothing to do with your playstyle and how you think as town, but it has everything to do with giving scum potentially useful information.

To faust's question: I don't really think the vote for you was scummy on it's own, but I am leaning scum on Glooble just from the rest of the interaction. I'm sitting down to work right now, so I don't have time to click back to remind myself who said it, but I actually didn't hate the idea that someone that basically copied my opening comment of relief to have IC!MiX could have been scum seeing that as something easy and safe to copy. I'll have more thoughts later.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on August 24, 2021, 12:13:21 pm
Let it be known that scum did not read the thread to see if it was safe to say they were relieved to see me as the IC. They simply already know if it's in their wheelhouse as town or not, intrinsically, from their interactions with me in the past.

If anything, it simply replaced what their first post would be had they been town. But that was decided pre-reading the thread.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: iguanaiguana on August 24, 2021, 12:18:55 pm
Vote: Mathdude
I want to see some wagons and the days are short. Plus I just looked through his posts and there's nothing really there... yet.

I don't know Mathdude's meta at all. But I have a vague feeling from skimming some recent games that he's a common D1 mislynch. Am I right or wrong?
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on August 24, 2021, 12:21:29 pm
Vote: Mathdude
I want to see some wagons and the days are short. Plus I just looked through his posts and there's nothing really there... yet.

I don't know Mathdude's meta at all. But I have a vague feeling from skimming some recent games that he's a common D1 mislynch. Am I right or wrong?

That is right.

So why would you vote for him?
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: iguanaiguana on August 24, 2021, 12:41:00 pm
Vote: Mathdude
I want to see some wagons and the days are short. Plus I just looked through his posts and there's nothing really there... yet.

I don't know Mathdude's meta at all. But I have a vague feeling from skimming some recent games that he's a common D1 mislynch. Am I right or wrong?

That is right.

So why would you vote for him?

Hard to choose a vote. I feel that scum is trying to avoid anyone getting more than 1 or 2 votes... taking advantage of the fact that townies are not on the same page about things. I feel that scum don't want wagons D1 that town can look at later and solve the game using. Therefore I want to vote for someone that someone else who is trying hard feels is a good vote as well... especially because no one is interested to join me on voting Awaclus.

In short, I have several weakish town reads, or at least pro town reads. Faust is one of those, mathdude is not one of those... and I'm sheeping faust.

Here's another question. I assume faust knows that Mathdude is a common D1 mislynch. So why would he go there? Isn't faust still considered to be a quite good player?
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: EFHW on August 24, 2021, 12:56:53 pm
I was trusting town!e to know what not to say, while challenging a possible scum!e to commit himself further. There was a spate of games some years back where it seemed that people were role-slipping left and right. I think we had a bunch of inexperienced players then, and e does not fit that description.
This post has the same underlying issue that I pointed out above. Basically you're asking town!e to be a bit disingenuous, and thus the answer he gives will likely look scummy no matter his alignment.

I'm not putting him in that position. He put himself there by making the comment. If he wasn't willing or able to elaborate, why say it? Which is what gives the comment itself a scummy feeling.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: EFHW on August 24, 2021, 12:58:18 pm
vote: e
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Glooble on August 24, 2021, 01:30:06 pm
I will admit I tend to scumread faust almost every game, regardless of which alignment he turns out to be.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: 2.71828..... on August 24, 2021, 03:20:14 pm
vote: e

Now I feel included as well
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: 2.71828..... on August 24, 2021, 03:20:33 pm
The big paragraph posts are intimidating. So many words
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: faust on August 24, 2021, 03:28:02 pm
Here's another question. I assume faust knows that Mathdude is a common D1 mislynch. So why would he go there? Isn't faust still considered to be a quite good player?
I don't know why MiX thinks mathdude is a common D1 misexile. (btw we say exile now instead of lynch because the word lynch has a problematic background)

mathdude is a relatively new addition to f.ds mafia, he was misexiled D1 in his first game and not since.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on August 24, 2021, 03:32:15 pm
Here's another question. I assume faust knows that Mathdude is a common D1 mislynch. So why would he go there? Isn't faust still considered to be a quite good player?
I don't know why MiX thinks mathdude is a common D1 misexile. (btw we say exile now instead of lynch because the word lynch has a problematic background)

mathdude is a relatively new addition to f.ds mafia, he was misexiled D1 in his first game and not since.

Because he was misexiled D1, then died D1, then exiled themselves D1, then lived to endgame, then we exiled them D2 (these last 2 as scum).

For the mathdude games we have, I think that's good enough to say he's a common D1 misexile.

Also I would say it's easy to pick on him with votes.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: faust on August 24, 2021, 03:42:44 pm
Here's another question. I assume faust knows that Mathdude is a common D1 mislynch. So why would he go there? Isn't faust still considered to be a quite good player?
I don't know why MiX thinks mathdude is a common D1 misexile. (btw we say exile now instead of lynch because the word lynch has a problematic background)

mathdude is a relatively new addition to f.ds mafia, he was misexiled D1 in his first game and not since.

Because he was misexiled D1, then died D1, then exiled themselves D1, then lived to endgame, then we exiled them D2 (these last 2 as scum).

For the mathdude games we have, I think that's good enough to say he's a common D1 misexile.

Also I would say it's easy to pick on him with votes.
No it's not. The D1 death you mention was not town-induced. A game where he tried to get exiled isn't really relevant in this game, so the only data point we have is a single game.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on August 24, 2021, 03:44:39 pm
Here's another question. I assume faust knows that Mathdude is a common D1 mislynch. So why would he go there? Isn't faust still considered to be a quite good player?
I don't know why MiX thinks mathdude is a common D1 misexile. (btw we say exile now instead of lynch because the word lynch has a problematic background)

mathdude is a relatively new addition to f.ds mafia, he was misexiled D1 in his first game and not since.

Because he was misexiled D1, then died D1, then exiled themselves D1, then lived to endgame, then we exiled them D2 (these last 2 as scum).

For the mathdude games we have, I think that's good enough to say he's a common D1 misexile.

Also I would say it's easy to pick on him with votes.
No it's not. The D1 death you mention was not town-induced. A game where he tried to get exiled isn't really relevant in this game, so the only data point we have is a single game.

One game out of one game he was town and could actually have been misexiled D1.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: iguanaiguana on August 24, 2021, 04:02:08 pm
I remember now about exile. I knew that then I forgot! Good call, will adjust.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Swowl on August 24, 2021, 04:42:49 pm
I think scum!Didds is more likely to forget Swowl was posted VLA (by both me and then himself), and the vote on Swowl, given their previous games together, feels like an intentionally aimed vote to show participation without actually engaging. It has a ďIíve got to make sure I vote Swowl D1 or heíll be suspicious of me for not going at himĒ type vibe, and I could see scum!Didds overlooking the VLA while making sure to get that vote in.

Swowl, can you confirm this is the case?

Ok I am home.
This first because it is at me directly.

Answer is no. Or I mean "no I cannot confirm I think this is what would happen". I get what Galz is saying and if it was like ANYONE other than WCD and myself, it would have merit... but Short answer no.. long answer below.

This is all generalization...
When we are skum together, we try to simulate our buddy buddy normal nature because obvious reasons.
We she is town and I am skum, I lose. I don't know how to play it.
When she is skum and I am town, I am like 50-50 either way. And the only reason I am 50-50 is if she actually makes a mistake. Once I cultivate a town read on her, I am pretty locked in.

When we are both town, we tend to ignore each other until one of us posts "something something... and because I town read WCD/Swowl". Then the other one normally reciprocates, unless a weird ass game where there is a skum read by that point... and then we are hard core buddy buddy until the end.

Its kind of like peacocks or whatever... walk around in circles for a while and then one of them shows all the plumage and then the other peacock either tries to kill it or chill with it. We normally chill.

Now this is my first post back, so I need to kind of read up on the general game state thus far but I will point out two things. One obvious, one not so much.

1) Obvious thing - WCD voted me. A weak vote so meh, but still. This part of the argument I get from Galz... Except different reasoning. Not so much weird because it has a vibe too it, because she would know that she doesn't need to simulate that vibe.... but weird because it breaks the peacock dance ritual.

2) Not so obvious thing - Galz has been in countless games with WCD and myself, so he would know that we generally ignore each other. So making the argument he did, for the REASON he stated... is weird.



Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Swowl on August 24, 2021, 04:53:03 pm
Starting from when the last player checked in for the first time...


Thank you, and yes. I'm a town  8)

hate the smiley face. personal paranoia, but I thing "I am town" followed by a smiley face is like texting "LOL" at the end of a accusatory or awkward statement. 
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Swowl on August 24, 2021, 04:53:28 pm
Short days!

@e, what made you think of massclaim, anyway? They are usually disasters for town Day 1.

phishy.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Swowl on August 24, 2021, 04:55:41 pm
Hypothetically, if we mass claim, then scum knows who is the doctor to roleblock and who is the tracker to shoot D1 and who is the vigilante to redirect onto the IC and we're screwed. We never get to catch scum out on their lying D1 claims because they know all of our powers and how to thwart them while we still know nothing real about them.

Mass claim is bad.

A lot of assumptions (knowledge?) about what powers scum has here; probably means nothing, but I wanted to note it for later just in case. Besides that, I agree.

I don't think these are very "bold" assumptions. Maybe replace Tracker with "Tracker/Cop" and then the Vig doesn't like "need to exist. But yeah, we have a start day IC... so just game creation wise, there kind of has to be certain roles for balance in a standard RMM.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Swowl on August 24, 2021, 04:59:37 pm
who brought up the mass claim orginally?
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Swowl on August 24, 2021, 05:00:03 pm
who brought up the mass claim orginally?

Got it. OK E! also skum points then.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Swowl on August 24, 2021, 05:01:11 pm
who brought up the mass claim orginally?

Got it. OK E! also skum points then.

was gonna post reasons, but pretty much "what faust said".
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Swowl on August 24, 2021, 05:05:18 pm
IC!MiX says: it's time to do your part! I have set up my readlist, have you?

Vote: Glooble

Is this real? Are you actually asking everyone for a reads list?
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on August 24, 2021, 05:06:48 pm
IC!MiX says: it's time to do your part! I have set up my readlist, have you?

Vote: Glooble

Is this real? Are you actually asking everyone for a reads list?

I mean, it was real, but it was worded in a way where I didn't actually ask for public read lists.

Basically, there was enough content in the thread for people to be able to read everyone (except you), and I wanted to say that I scumread Glooble (and vote them).
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Swowl on August 24, 2021, 05:08:24 pm
What was the last game you didnít have a QT with Swowl, that he didnít host (which you would still have a QT with him inÖ)?

Iím not saying you donít have one here, I have no idea, but the odds are generally against it and your vote felt like fake interaction, especially because of the stated VLA.

This is a better justification for Galz' read than previous.
Still think skum WCD would just ignore me here, but I understand better what Galz was getting at.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Swowl on August 24, 2021, 05:08:53 pm
IC!MiX says: it's time to do your part! I have set up my readlist, have you?

Vote: Glooble

Is this real? Are you actually asking everyone for a reads list?

I mean, it was real, but it was worded in a way where I didn't actually ask for public read lists.

Basically, there was enough content in the thread for people to be able to read everyone (except you), and I wanted to say that I scumread Glooble (and vote them).

cool. was a clarification on the public part.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Swowl on August 24, 2021, 05:11:35 pm
See, I told you all advocating for a mass claim would be silly
I would make a comment about you are conveniently trying to absolve yourself from responsibility for what you posted, but first I am going to wait and see how this post is received.

Also, what exactly do you think I should be taking responsibility for?
Floating the idea of a massclaim, which usually leads to nothing could but can have the effect of people revealing information about their roles.

I also think this post from faust is a little off. The idea of a day one mass claim is so against the grain that nobody is going to say "ooh, great idea! I'm the cop!" without coming to a group consensus. I fail to see how e's suggestion could have led to anyone leaking information about their roles.

I'll join the faust wagon, I guess. That's a thing, right?

vote: faust

This doesn't make sense Gloobs. There is an IC. That removes a player from play for investigation roles to have to consider, thus making it more likely to get a result. Also, having the IC publically announced on Day 1 GTDs that either all investigation roles get at least 1 night of info out, or if skum is lucky, we get an IC on day 2 minimum.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: mathdude on August 24, 2021, 06:01:35 pm
(Sorry, no quotes at the moment)...

Iguana, as you stated, you don't know my meta and I don't know yours either. So I guess it makes sense to sheep someone you do know and hope for a newer player who has a short history of usually getting exiled early.  /sarcasm. You say you want more out of me? How about an OMGUS
Vote: Iguana
Better?

And to the others posting about me... thanks for making me feel included! I don't think it really matters how you look at my game history here, whether town games, all games, whatever... I definitely have a pretty good track record of getting killed early. 

The only reason I lasted until endgame in Dwarf mafia was because the game was fully stacked in our favour one Swowl decided to fully trust Didds and me in our QT (and we were both scum).
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on August 24, 2021, 06:10:20 pm
Vote Count 1.2.MiX

iguanaiguana (2): pubby, mathdude
2.71828.... (2): Awaclus, EFHW
mathdude (2): faust, iguanaiguana
EFHW (1): 2.71828....
Swowl (1): WestCoastDidds
WestCoastDidds (1): Galzria
Glooble (1): MiX
faust (1): Glooble

Not voting (2): Swowl, Dylan32

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to exile. Day 1 ends at 7 pm on Thursday, forum time (that is in 49 hours).
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on August 24, 2021, 06:13:46 pm
If at any point in time you feel like you have nothing to do in this game and you're itching to be useful, take a look at Glooble, and talk about your read on him. I think that would be helpful.

That includes Glooble. Lol.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: WestCoastDidds on August 24, 2021, 07:32:44 pm
Geez, Swowl. I ❤️ you so much. We are peacocks!

So I was saying hey and I missed you, and I voted because I hadnít voted for anyone and Joth had just announced the five day days. But I was never gonna exile you D1.

I think it is super weird that Galz decided to characterize the lack of  behavior that I donít usually exhibit was scummy. And he said I was doing it to look like I was engaging in the game, but heís actually done something far more hollow than he accused me of. Itís weird.

To your questions, MiXÖ. Iíve had a hard time getting into things in the last 24 hours because Glooble and faust essenatilly turned an off hand comment by e about massclaiming into a pretty deep tangent that mimic the kind of set-up talk that makes me glaze over. When I cast back, I think Glooble comes from scummier than faust in that exchange.

I will vote: Glooble for now
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: WestCoastDidds on August 24, 2021, 07:34:17 pm
What was the last game you didnít have a QT with Swowl, that he didnít host (which you would still have a QT with him inÖ)?

Iím not saying you donít have one here, I have no idea, but the odds are generally against it and your vote felt like fake interaction, especially because of the stated VLA.

This is a better justification for Galz' read than previous.
Still think skum WCD would just ignore me here, but I understand better what Galz was getting at.

YeahÖif I was scum I would ignore you completely. The risk of messing up is too great.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: iguanaiguana on August 24, 2021, 08:18:25 pm
Do WCD and Swowl know each other IRL or something like that? I'm fairly confused about it all.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: iguanaiguana on August 24, 2021, 08:23:16 pm
Mathdude, it's a little helpful TBH because you posted something substantial so you moved out of the total nothing category but it doesn't help much because now I only know your read on me... which is like, meh, doesn't tell me a ton.

Two questions:

1) Can you share your read/vibe on at least one other person?
2) What about me made you want to vote me? Just the fact that I voted you or something else also?
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: iguanaiguana on August 24, 2021, 08:57:57 pm
Starting from when the last player checked in for the first time...


Thank you, and yes. I'm a town  8)

hate the smiley face. personal paranoia, but I thing "I am town" followed by a smiley face is like texting "LOL" at the end of a accusatory or awkward statement.

I used to use that emoticon a lot (it's gotten me exiled at least twice) so I sorta used it for old times sake.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: WestCoastDidds on August 24, 2021, 10:26:20 pm
Do WCD and Swowl know each other IRL or something like that? I'm fairly confused about it all.

NahÖ about a year and a half ago or so we were a third party in game with daychat so we talked a lot. It was a crazy game, and we were in it until the endÖso there was just this epic qt. And, you know me, so not only did we talk a lot of strategy but I also have all kinds of life questions so now we are more known to one another than most people. I have played quite a bit of drunk mafia pre-pandemic with MiX, Swowl, Joth, and GalzÖand lots of quick games with them (and faust) on Jimmmmmís website. So, itís just familiarity.

Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: pubby on August 24, 2021, 10:43:02 pm
I've been somewhat suspicious of glooble. Their first few posts were terse and seemed like they were just going through the motions. Then they jump into an argument with faust, acting defensively when the actual topic of discussion didn't require it.

But for now I'm fine with parking my vote on iguana. Swowl I read as town.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Galzria on August 24, 2021, 11:58:00 pm
What was the last game you didnít have a QT with Swowl, that he didnít host (which you would still have a QT with him inÖ)?

Iím not saying you donít have one here, I have no idea, but the odds are generally against it and your vote felt like fake interaction, especially because of the stated VLA.

What does the QT have to do with anything? Can you elaborate?

My point was that WCD is someone that I believe seeks interactions. Those two in particular have had a QT in literally every game for like... the last 10 or so. Assuming they don't have one here, that would be really weird for them, and so with WCD in particular, I think she'll seek out that interaction more within the game thread (compared to just ignoring the fact). If WCD is town, I would've expected more of a "Swowl, come back from camping, we miss you!!!". Hell, I would've expected her to call out how sad she was that she didn't get to talk with him in a QT. The vote felt like an opportunistic way of creating that general interaction. I think that's more likely to come from scum WCD than town WCD.

I think scum!Didds is more likely to forget Swowl was posted VLA
I think that sort of thing is quite the stretch. My default assumption is that scum pays more attention to the game, not less.

Why are you generalizing scum play as a whole? I agree that, generally speaking, scum pays more attention to the game, not less. I disagree strongly when that statement is made about WCD. Or rather, I think that scum!WCD is much more likely to force something than town!WCD, which will often cause her to overlook things that she might not have otherwise.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: faust on August 25, 2021, 12:46:58 am
I think scum!Didds is more likely to forget Swowl was posted VLA
I think that sort of thing is quite the stretch. My default assumption is that scum pays more attention to the game, not less.

Why are you generalizing scum play as a whole? I agree that, generally speaking, scum pays more attention to the game, not less. I disagree strongly when that statement is made about WCD. Or rather, I think that scum!WCD is much more likely to force something than town!WCD, which will often cause her to overlook things that she might not have otherwise.
It wasn't clear to me that your argument hinger on Didds' scum meta in particular. It makes more sense now, though I don't think I agree that Didds is scum.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Swowl on August 25, 2021, 12:54:07 am
If at any point in time you feel like you have nothing to do in this game and you're itching to be useful, take a look at Glooble, and talk about your read on him. I think that would be helpful.

That includes Glooble. Lol.

Okie dokie.
First off... 7 total posts... so.... not really a lot to go off of here. But...

1.
Hello everyone!
Not a lot to speculate on really. So...
vote: Dylan32 I guess. Since I won't get to day 1 policy exile you in BSG, RVS is the next best thing.
Ok.. RVS whatever.

2.
Day 1 mass claim is a bad plan.
Getting some wagons started early is a good plan.
vote: pubby for reasons.
Day 1 mass claim is a bad plan. Wagons are good. Would like to know the pubby reasons though as they had almost literally done nothing so far in the game.

3.
Hypothetically, if we mass claim, then scum knows who is the doctor to roleblock and who is the tracker to shoot D1 and who is the vigilante to redirect onto the IC and we're screwed. We never get to catch scum out on their lying D1 claims because they know all of our powers and how to thwart them while we still know nothing real about them.
Mass claim is bad.
A lot of assumptions (knowledge?) about what powers scum has here; probably means nothing, but I wanted to note it for later just in case. Besides that, I agree.
I think this post from Dylan is a little bit scummy. It seems disingenuous to me. Iguana is clearly using hypothetical examples to make a point, and implying that he's somehow letting his secret setup knowledge slip is... weird.
I kind of have to agree with Glooble actually. I read II's comment as hypothetical train of thought as well. Kind of hard not to. I guess maybe a little shade casting, but also I agree with him so...

4.
See, I told you all advocating for a mass claim would be silly
I would make a comment about you are conveniently trying to absolve yourself from responsibility for what you posted, but first I am going to wait and see how this post is received.

Also, what exactly do you think I should be taking responsibility for?
Floating the idea of a massclaim, which usually leads to nothing could but can have the effect of people revealing information about their roles.

I also think this post from faust is a little off. The idea of a day one mass claim is so against the grain that nobody is going to say "ooh, great idea! I'm the cop!" without coming to a group consensus. I fail to see how e's suggestion could have led to anyone leaking information about their roles.

I'll join the faust wagon, I guess. That's a thing, right?

vote: faust
K this one hits a note though. Glooble thinks day 1 mass claims are bad. Cool. However, one of the reasons day 1 mass claims are bad is for sure not just the claim itself, but what faust said about leaking information. Weird to agree but also go after faust here.

5.

One might counter this by saying "well town should just answer without regard for their role". Which is saying, town should be disingenuous and do the thing that scum is also trying to do. This causes town to behave in a scum-like manner and thus muddies the water for scumhunting.

I don't personally think my opinion on a particular strategy is affected in anyway whatsoever by my current role. I would always think about it in the context of any roles that could theoretically be in the game, and I would expect the same of any town player. I don't see how that's disingenuous.
Fair defense enough of their reasoning. Does no good to back up why they would find faust skummy though I suppose.

6.

One might counter this by saying "well town should just answer without regard for their role". Which is saying, town should be disingenuous and do the thing that scum is also trying to do. This causes town to behave in a scum-like manner and thus muddies the water for scumhunting.

I don't personally think my opinion on a particular strategy is affected in anyway whatsoever by my current role. I would always think about it in the context of any roles that could theoretically be in the game, and I would expect the same of any town player. I don't see how that's disingenuous.
Seems strange not to take knowledge into account. You could have a role that says "if you target the Tracker, town wins". Surely that would influence your opinion on claiming. That is a ridiculously extreme example, but any role has a preference on knowing/not knowing roles to a lesser extent. If you don't take into account the knowledge that you have then you're not playing optimally.

I disagree. Even if I know that my own role benefits from or suffers from a mass claim, I don't know how scum are going to benefit or how that info might hurt other townies. I think considering your own role without thinking about what other roles might be in the game isn't playing optimally.

But whatever. We play the game differently, that's fine. You've convinced me that your objection wasn't alignment-indicative.
So IDK what it is I am looking for here... like at all in the re read... but I guess the back peddling could be due to heat. Other than that chance, nothing stands out here.

7.
I will admit I tend to scumread faust almost every game, regardless of which alignment he turns out to be.
Meh. Kind of hard for me to say that this is just creating an open door policy based on meta when I just did the "same/reverse" thing with WCD. But I could see how it comes off as that.


Yeah... nothing standing out crazy here to me. What are people seeing that I am not?
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Swowl on August 25, 2021, 01:04:44 am
@ glooble - what were in fact your reasons for voting pubby when you did?
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Swowl on August 25, 2021, 01:07:56 am
This is the skummiest post of the game so far:

*snipped*
I had a whole lot more free time to start that game up with my wife and kids in vacation before I could get it to join them, so my activity level was inflated over "normal"
Also, not quite sure how to jump in here. I am on the verge of advocating a D1 mass claim, but know that would be foolish and just get me exiled

So I will
Vote: E!
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: mathdude on August 25, 2021, 01:43:15 am
Mathdude, it's a little helpful TBH because you posted something substantial so you moved out of the total nothing category but it doesn't help much because now I only know your read on me... which is like, meh, doesn't tell me a ton.

Two questions:

1) Can you share your read/vibe on at least one other person?
2) What about me made you want to vote me? Just the fact that I voted you or something else also?

Unvote

2. For now, it was mainly an OMGUS vote, as stated. I also tend to poke people with votes once in a while (mainly early game) to test for reasons.

1. I'm getting a Townie vibe from MiX!!! Just kidding... he still sounds scummy to me, but I know he's not (as per mod confirmation).

Really though, in my few short games, I've found I will typically think certain people are scummy, regardless of their alignment - MiX, faust, ashersky (not in this game), and probably e (though I think I've only played 1 other game with them). My initial read of your first few posts tells me you will probably land on this list too.

So this is mostly to say I'm starting to become aware of my biases in trying to read people. At this point in the game, I'm not saying I think someone on the list is scum (even if I find some of their posts scummy), but I'm also not saying I give any of them a town pass just based on the fact that I can find them scummy when they are town, since they still might be scum... well, okay, I'll give MiX a town pass.

Did I actually answer your Q1? Not really. I gave my bias on reads. I'll let you know shortly if I see anything i think could be useful on a quick rescan.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: mathdude on August 25, 2021, 02:07:02 am
Okay, quick skim done. The two I'm most suspicious of at the moment are e and Awaclus. For e, it wasn't even really the massclaim comment or following discussion... it was the first post, saying he'll sheep (Awaclus, was it?) then just votes faust. For Awa, many of his posts feel off... short, just throwing stuff out there, not much reasoning for most of them.

If I had to trust someone at the moment, other than IC!MiX, it would probably be Swowl. He has come back interested in the game, asking relevant questions, trying to figure stuff out.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Awaclus on August 25, 2021, 02:25:00 am
For Awa, many of his posts feel off... short, just throwing stuff out there, not much reasoning for most of them.

I have mostly been assuming that the reasoning would be obvious, but if something is not clear, I can explain it in more detail (as long as it doesn't include any information I would rather not share).

He has come back interested in the game, asking relevant questions, trying to figure stuff out.

Scum does all of that in an RMM.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Galzria on August 25, 2021, 02:38:25 am
My perception of Awaclus this game is that his posts are generally more helpful than they usually seem to be. That is, they appear to be furthering a more visible agenda than normal (whereas he seems to normally play a less public game).

As heís usually town this could indicate that heís scum here - but Iím not yet willing to scum read him for play that I personally find more helpful.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Awaclus on August 25, 2021, 03:26:57 am
My perception of Awaclus this game is that his posts are generally more helpful than they usually seem to be. That is, they appear to be furthering a more visible agenda than normal (whereas he seems to normally play a less public game).

As heís usually town this could indicate that heís scum here - but Iím not yet willing to scum read him for play that I personally find more helpful.

"Awaclus is being more helpful than usual" has been a meme for at least three years now:

Awaclus has been decidedly less painfully obstinate than I remember.  Has he changed (I know I keep asking this but I think it matters) to be more open and helpful?  If not, Iíd lean more scum on him, since the one constant for Awaclus was that he would never do anything for anyone else, no matter what, and would always be completely convinced he was right.

I have always been helpful, there's nothing unusual about that.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Galzria on August 25, 2021, 03:35:22 am
My perception of Awaclus this game is that his posts are generally more helpful than they usually seem to be. That is, they appear to be furthering a more visible agenda than normal (whereas he seems to normally play a less public game).

As heís usually town this could indicate that heís scum here - but Iím not yet willing to scum read him for play that I personally find more helpful.

"Awaclus is being more helpful than usual" has been a meme for at least three years now:

Awaclus has been decidedly less painfully obstinate than I remember.  Has he changed (I know I keep asking this but I think it matters) to be more open and helpful?  If not, Iíd lean more scum on him, since the one constant for Awaclus was that he would never do anything for anyone else, no matter what, and would always be completely convinced he was right.

I have always been helpful, there's nothing unusual about that.

Never said you were or were not. Simply said my perception. That is my own, and is independent of however you view yourself, your actions and your play style.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: faust on August 25, 2021, 03:41:57 am
Vote: Swowl
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on August 25, 2021, 04:25:55 am
My perception of Awaclus this game is that his posts are generally more helpful than they usually seem to be. That is, they appear to be furthering a more visible agenda than normal (whereas he seems to normally play a less public game).

As heís usually town this could indicate that heís scum here - but Iím not yet willing to scum read him for play that I personally find more helpful.

"Awaclus is being more helpful than usual" has been a meme for at least three years now:

Awaclus has been decidedly less painfully obstinate than I remember.  Has he changed (I know I keep asking this but I think it matters) to be more open and helpful?  If not, Iíd lean more scum on him, since the one constant for Awaclus was that he would never do anything for anyone else, no matter what, and would always be completely convinced he was right.

I have always been helpful, there's nothing unusual about that.

It's a meme because of 1 or 2 scum games where you have been very helpful and also stomped town.

I don't think it's outrageous to say it's alignment indicative.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: faust on August 25, 2021, 04:38:49 am
It's not alignment indicative, it's just indicative of people not understanding Awaclus' playstyle.

When it comes to general theory/meta questions, Awaclus has always been forthcoming. It's just his reads that he plays close to his chest. A lot of people seem to lump it all together, assume Awaclus isn't willing to answer any questions, and then get surprised when he does. But nothing about his playstyle here is actually different.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Awaclus on August 25, 2021, 04:52:40 am
It's a meme because of 1 or 2 scum games where you have been very helpful and also stomped town.

But the fact that people keep saying it disproves it. I can't usually be more helpful than usual, but someone usually says it.

I don't think it's outrageous to say it's alignment indicative.

It's obviously not alignment indicative, I'm town most of the time when people say that.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: faust on August 25, 2021, 04:55:45 am
I don't think it's outrageous to say it's alignment indicative.

It's obviously not alignment indicative, I'm town most of the time when people say that.
That's not a good argument though, if something happens in the majority of your town games but all of your scum games then it's still alignment indicative.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: faust on August 25, 2021, 04:56:45 am
Can we now have a Swowl wagon please?
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: EFHW on August 25, 2021, 06:08:36 am
Can we now have a Swowl wagon please?

Reasons?
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: faust on August 25, 2021, 06:26:20 am
Can we now have a Swowl wagon please?

Reasons?
Yes!
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on August 25, 2021, 06:27:41 am
Can we now have a Swowl wagon please?

Reasons?
Yes!

It wasn't a yes or no question.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: faust on August 25, 2021, 06:28:34 am
Can we now have a Swowl wagon please?

Reasons?
Yes!

It wasn't a yes or no question.
It is with the right interpretation. It's just one word, after all. I chose to read it as "Do you have reasons?"
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on August 25, 2021, 06:30:33 am
That was not the right interpretation. "Reasons?" is much more likely to mean "Reasons please?" which is asking for said reasons, not asking if they exist.

Also, what reasons do you have to want a Swowl wagon?
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Awaclus on August 25, 2021, 06:34:24 am
Sure, we can have one.

Vote: Swowl
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: faust on August 25, 2021, 06:36:02 am
That was not the right interpretation. "Reasons?" is much more likely to mean "Reasons please?" which is asking for said reasons, not asking if they exist.

Also, what reasons do you have to want a Swowl wagon?
I have to say you talk less like an Innocent Child and more like an Innocent Boomer.

Here, I'll spell it out for you: I don't want to share my reasons right now. Other than saying we haven't had a proper wagon this game and it would sure be nice to have one before the Day ends.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: mathdude on August 25, 2021, 06:38:11 am
we haven't had a proper wagon this game and it would sure be nice to have one before the Day ends.

We can make a wagon. Would you rather we build it on Awaclus, e, or you?
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on August 25, 2021, 06:50:06 am
Vote: faust

I highly recommend a Glooble wagon too.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on August 25, 2021, 06:51:58 am
Vote: Glooble
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Awaclus on August 25, 2021, 06:55:49 am
Other than saying we haven't had a proper wagon this game and it would sure be nice to have one before the Day ends.

That's not true though. We have had a wagon on e. I'm not sure how many people were voting for him and I can't check right now but I'm pretty sure it was like at least 3-4.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: faust on August 25, 2021, 07:00:29 am
we haven't had a proper wagon this game and it would sure be nice to have one before the Day ends.

We can make a wagon. Would you rather we build it on Awaclus, e, or you?
I mean, out of these options... Awaclus. But we don't need to restrict ourselves to this bad pool.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: faust on August 25, 2021, 07:05:17 am
Other than saying we haven't had a proper wagon this game and it would sure be nice to have one before the Day ends.

That's not true though. We have had a wagon on e. I'm not sure how many people were voting for him and I can't check right now but I'm pretty sure it was like at least 3-4.
You are right that that many people have voted for e in total, but as far as I can tell from skimming, it was never more than 2 at the same time, so I wouldn't count that as a wagon.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Glooble on August 25, 2021, 07:22:39 am
@ glooble - what were in fact your reasons for voting pubby when you did?

Wanted to vote for someone who already had a vote on them in the hope of starting a wagon. Why pubby specifically of those options? That I won't say.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Glooble on August 25, 2021, 07:23:41 am
Vote: Glooble

This is a bad way to go today.

What exactly have I been doing today that isn't consistent with my normal day 1 playstyle?
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on August 25, 2021, 07:26:09 am
Vote: Glooble

This is a bad way to go today.

What exactly have I been doing today that isn't consistent with my normal day 1 playstyle?

Not explained anything you've done this game, for example.

I would love to know more of what you've done that says you're town this game though.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Glooble on August 25, 2021, 07:29:22 am
Vote: Glooble

This is a bad way to go today.

What exactly have I been doing today that isn't consistent with my normal day 1 playstyle?

Not explained anything you've done this game, for example.

I would love to know more of what you've done that says you're town this game though.

That's not how the burden of proof works, and you know it.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on August 25, 2021, 07:31:39 am
I don't care about burden of proof, I would just like for you to talk about your play, posts and decisions this day.

You know I'm town. Now, it's time for me to know you're town.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Glooble on August 25, 2021, 07:33:23 am
I'm never useful day 1. I usually can't develop scumreads this early. I voted for pubby in the hopes of starting a pubby wagon not because I necessarily thought he was scum, but because I thought he might be scum and it might provide useful interactions. I also had a reason for thinking he was a teensy bit more likely to be scum than others who already had votes on them, and I wam not interested in sharing that reason atm.

After that I highlighted two posts that felt a little off to me in the hopes of spurring discussion. I honestly expected more people to agree with me about faust, but apparently this is an area where I differ from most of the players on this forum so that ended up leading no where. Other than that all I've done is try to defend myself.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Glooble on August 25, 2021, 07:34:44 am
If I were scum, this is where I would be focusing on deflecting the conversation to someone else, but I'm, not doing that because, as I said, I don't have any strong scrumreads.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on August 25, 2021, 07:35:56 am
If I were scum, this is where I would be focusing on deflecting the conversation to someone else, but I'm, not doing that because, as I said, I don't have any strong scrumreads.

Well, this is true, at least.

Do you have weak scumreads?
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Glooble on August 25, 2021, 08:22:00 am
Faust, though its just a gut feeling. Maybe Dylan. I will read the thread again this morning and see if I can see the Swowl logic.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: EFHW on August 25, 2021, 08:44:27 am
That was not the right interpretation. "Reasons?" is much more likely to mean "Reasons please?" which is asking for said reasons, not asking if they exist.

Also, what reasons do you have to want a Swowl wagon?

This
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: jotheonah on August 25, 2021, 09:31:34 am
 A pink bubble appears in the distance. As it fades away, there stands Glinda the Good Witch.

"Oh Munchkins" she says, "while you continue your investigation, I think our new friend Dorothy and her little dog should follow the Yellow Brick road to the Emerald City! There, the Wizard of Oz lives and he can answer all her questions, and also help her get home to Kansas!"

"Suits me" says Dorothy, and sets out on the yellow path.

"But first," says Glinda, "Why don't you take that dead lady's shoes for yourself? Look how shiny they are!"

"Ok," says Dorothy, and everyone pretends it makes sense.



Vote Count 1.3

Swowl (2): faust, Awaclus
Glooble (2): MiX, WestCoastDidds
2.71828.... (2): EFHW, Swowl
iguanaiguana (1): pubby
EFHW (1): 2.71828....
WestCoastDidds (1): Galzria
faust (1): Glooble
mathdude (1): iguanaiguana

Not voting (2): Dylan32, mathdude

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to exile. Day 1 ends at 7 pm on Thursday, forum time.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Awaclus on August 25, 2021, 09:34:31 am
Not voting (5): Dylan32, mathdude

[X] Doubt
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: jotheonah on August 25, 2021, 09:46:24 am
Not voting (5): Dylan32, mathdude

[X] Doubt

Obviously there are three secret nonvoters, a new mechanic I'm very excited about debuting. /s
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on August 25, 2021, 10:05:38 am
Not voting (5): Dylan32, mathdude

[X] Doubt

Obviously there are three secret nonvoters, a new mechanic I'm very excited about debuting. /s

Oh no, the cylons are back.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Glooble on August 25, 2021, 10:18:28 am
Not voting (5): Dylan32, mathdude

[X] Doubt

Obviously there are three secret nonvoters, a new mechanic I'm very excited about debuting. /s

Oh no, the cylons are back.

Th Tin Man was an early prototype.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: iguanaiguana on August 25, 2021, 12:31:38 pm
Vote: WestCoastDidds

I want a wagon, so I sorta hate to not join one of the 2 people options... But, this is where my reads point me right now.

-snip-
YeahÖif I was scum I would ignore you completely. The risk of messing up is too great.

Possibly a scummy comment? Would scum!Didds really completely ignore Swowl? Probably not. To me "If I did it" type comments can be a weak scumtell.

-snip-
unless something really dramatic happens in the next three days, I will probably advocate for no exile because a good Ďole Joth RMM is going to have night powers that are more interesting and important than what weíre doing D1.
-snip-

Advocating for D1 no exile is scummy IMO. Especially from someone who's been actively playing for threeish years. 

-snip-
 Iíve had a hard time getting into things in the last 24 hours because Glooble and faust essenatilly turned an off hand comment by e about massclaiming into a pretty deep tangent that mimic the kind of set-up talk that makes me glaze over. When I cast back, I think Glooble comes from scummier than faust in that exchange.

I will vote: Glooble for now

This is WCD's only so far comment of scumhunting. I actually think she mischaracterizes Glooble's position in that discussion. I couldn't describe Glooble's posts as going into a 'pretty deep tangent' although maybe faust does that along with some other people. So the fact that that's her basis for voting Glooble seems artificial. It also contradicts her previous stated desire to no exile.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: iguanaiguana on August 25, 2021, 12:37:01 pm
Also... the timing of WCD's vote of Glooble. She votes him 1.5 hours after the IC!MiX posts for everyone in the thread to inspect Glooble. So... it feels like an easy time to jump in with a vote on Glooble with some confidence others could be following behind.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: WestCoastDidds on August 25, 2021, 01:08:41 pm
My perception of Awaclus this game is that his posts are generally more helpful than they usually seem to be. That is, they appear to be furthering a more visible agenda than normal (whereas he seems to normally play a less public game).

As heís usually town this could indicate that heís scum here - but Iím not yet willing to scum read him for play that I personally find more helpful.

I 100% agree with this
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: WestCoastDidds on August 25, 2021, 01:09:33 pm
It's not alignment indicative, it's just indicative of people not understanding Awaclus' playstyle.

When it comes to general theory/meta questions, Awaclus has always been forthcoming. It's just his reads that he plays close to his chest. A lot of people seem to lump it all together, assume Awaclus isn't willing to answer any questions, and then get surprised when he does. But nothing about his playstyle here is actually different.

And also with this
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: faust on August 25, 2021, 01:31:03 pm
What? These two posts are contradictory; you're not allowed to agree with both!
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Glooble on August 25, 2021, 01:32:13 pm
I'll get on the Didds wagon. It's a better case than any of the other ones I've seen.

vote: WestCoastDidds
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: WestCoastDidds on August 25, 2021, 01:35:21 pm
Vote: WestCoastDidds

I want a wagon, so I sorta hate to not join one of the 2 people options... But, this is where my reads point me right now.

-snip-
YeahÖif I was scum I would ignore you completely. The risk of messing up is too great.

Possibly a scummy comment? Would scum!Didds really completely ignore Swowl? Probably not. To me "If I did it" type comments can be a weak scumtell.

-snip-
unless something really dramatic happens in the next three days, I will probably advocate for no exile because a good Ďole Joth RMM is going to have night powers that are more interesting and important than what weíre doing D1.
-snip-

Advocating for D1 no exile is scummy IMO. Especially from someone who's been actively playing for threeish years. 

-snip-
 Iíve had a hard time getting into things in the last 24 hours because Glooble and faust essenatilly turned an off hand comment by e about massclaiming into a pretty deep tangent that mimic the kind of set-up talk that makes me glaze over. When I cast back, I think Glooble comes from scummier than faust in that exchange.

I will vote: Glooble for now

This is WCD's only so far comment of scumhunting. I actually think she mischaracterizes Glooble's position in that discussion. I couldn't describe Glooble's posts as going into a 'pretty deep tangent' although maybe faust does that along with some other people. So the fact that that's her basis for voting Glooble seems artificial. It also contradicts her previous stated desire to no exile.

Your first point that "If I did" comments are scummy. I disagree. Swowl is one of the two people who read me best. Saying what I would do is based enirely on what I have done.  But that is also a belief thing and I won't say anything to change your mind... but you should also recognize it is a belief thing and not based in any evidence of my scum behavior.

Your second point is that no exile is scummy.  No, no it is not.  Shraye has fully coverted me on this although i am not as committed to the idea as he is. Town lost a whole bunch of games in the last year because we had too many misexiles. There is a whole MiX rant about it somewhere.  It is very bad for us when we misexile, especially in games when there may be a third party.  In a normal game, even a misexile is valuable because we learn something from the wagon and the flip. That is still true in an RMM, but less so because of the myriad roles and powers that go with them.  In my comment I said that this was the reason and I also said that I was not yet at the point of advocating no exile. So, you are misconstruing my intent.  But mostly I just think you are wrong if you are willing to suck up a misexile.

Third point.... I am not mischaracterizing Globble's position. How much he was responsible for the extended discussion of massclaiming, on teh other hand, is arguable and a difference in perception.  He does get some credit for recognizing that it needed to end, but it still sucked up most of yesterday. I was particularly frustrated by it, but that is just me.  I think the IC wants to see a Glooble wagon. There could be lots of reasons for that. I'm not going to ask.  Do I see a scenario where he is scum? Yes. Do I want to let MiX gather whatever intel he's looking to gather? Yes. That is not opportunistic. 


Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: faust on August 25, 2021, 01:40:32 pm
Third point.... I am not mischaracterizing Globble's position. How much he was responsible for the extended discussion of massclaiming, on teh other hand, is arguable and a difference in perception.  He does get some credit for recognizing that it needed to end, but it still sucked up most of yesterday. I was particularly frustrated by it, but that is just me.
This is not a fair characterization. Glooble and I having a conversation does not prevent anyone from talking about other stuff. If nothing else got discussed on that day, that is on everyone, not just on Glooble and me.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Glooble on August 25, 2021, 01:41:12 pm
Forum posting is asynchronous. Any number of people could have had any number of conversations about anything else while faust and I were having our tete-e-tete. We were not "sucking up" anything. Had we not had that conversation, there would simply have been fewer posts. There's no reason to think they would have been replaced with more substantive ones.

PPE: faust said exactly the same thing
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: WestCoastDidds on August 25, 2021, 01:43:32 pm
What? These two posts are contradictory; you're not allowed to agree with both!

I agree with Galzy that Awaclus seems more helpful than usual, and that i like it.

I agree with you that folks do not often understand Awa's playstyle and that he is often more helpful than we give him credit for, but because he keeps his reasons close to the vest it can get frustrating.

Finally, I agree with you and with Awa that his play has been like his (more helpful) recently.

I don't see those as contradictory. Awa can be enigmatic. That can be frustrating. But he has always answered questions about anything that aren't his reads (his favorite animals are spiders!) and he has been more forthcoming in recent years than in the past but its easy to keep the old perception that was a product of being frustrated.

PPE: 2
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: WestCoastDidds on August 25, 2021, 01:47:07 pm
Third point.... I am not mischaracterizing Globble's position. How much he was responsible for the extended discussion of massclaiming, on teh other hand, is arguable and a difference in perception.  He does get some credit for recognizing that it needed to end, but it still sucked up most of yesterday. I was particularly frustrated by it, but that is just me.
This is not a fair characterization. Glooble and I having a conversation does not prevent anyone from talking about other stuff. If nothing else got discussed on that day, that is on everyone, not just on Glooble and me.

Absolutely, and i don't mean to imply that it did. My original comment that iguana snipped was that I was having a hard time engaging yesterday because it felt to me that we were in set-up talk and that is hard to me to grok.

Apologies to you and Glooble if I sounded judgy. That wasn't my intent. I was trying to speak to wh I hadn't engaged with that discussion. I was obviously having a conversation with Glaz about Swowl's VLA and with iguana about Swowl during that time, so clearly it is possible for other people to talk.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: WestCoastDidds on August 25, 2021, 01:49:59 pm
Forum posting is asynchronous. Any number of people could have had any number of conversations about anything else while faust and I were having our tete-e-tete. We were not "sucking up" anything. Had we not had that conversation, there would simply have been fewer posts. There's no reason to think they would have been replaced with more substantive ones.

PPE: faust said exactly the same thing

Again, I apologize. I wasn't trying to say that you were responsible for stifling conversation. I was talking about my limitations.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Swowl on August 25, 2021, 01:57:56 pm
I'm never useful day 1. I usually can't develop scumreads this early. I voted for pubby in the hopes of starting a pubby wagon not because I necessarily thought he was scum, but because I thought he might be scum and it might provide useful interactions. I also had a reason for thinking he was a teensy bit more likely to be scum than others who already had votes on them, and I wam not interested in sharing that reason atm.


Prior to you moving your vote to pubby for "reasons" he had the following posts:

1. "vote iguanaiguana"
2. "I don't think we are in kansas anymore"

what possible read could you get out of that?
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Glooble on August 25, 2021, 02:00:42 pm
I'm never useful day 1. I usually can't develop scumreads this early. I voted for pubby in the hopes of starting a pubby wagon not because I necessarily thought he was scum, but because I thought he might be scum and it might provide useful interactions. I also had a reason for thinking he was a teensy bit more likely to be scum than others who already had votes on them, and I wam not interested in sharing that reason atm.


Prior to you moving your vote to pubby for "reasons" he had the following posts:

1. "vote iguanaiguana"
2. "I don't think we are in kansas anymore"

what possible read could you get out of that?

Ok, now this? This is actually rolefishing.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Glooble on August 25, 2021, 02:01:42 pm
The reasons were admittedly very flimsy, but its not pro-town to keep pushing me for them.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Galzria on August 25, 2021, 02:03:57 pm
On WCD. Happy with WCD. Would also vote:

Dylan, EFHW, Glooble, e, pubby

Would have to stretch to get to:

Mathdude, iguana

Probably not interested in:

faust, Awaclus, Swowl
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: WestCoastDidds on August 25, 2021, 02:05:13 pm
I'm never useful day 1. I usually can't develop scumreads this early. I voted for pubby in the hopes of starting a pubby wagon not because I necessarily thought he was scum, but because I thought he might be scum and it might provide useful interactions. I also had a reason for thinking he was a teensy bit more likely to be scum than others who already had votes on them, and I wam not interested in sharing that reason atm.


Prior to you moving your vote to pubby for "reasons" he had the following posts:

1. "vote iguanaiguana"
2. "I don't think we are in kansas anymore"

what possible read could you get out of that?

Ok, now this? This is actually rolefishing.

I don't follow. How is that rolefishing?
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Swowl on August 25, 2021, 02:06:34 pm
I'm never useful day 1. I usually can't develop scumreads this early. I voted for pubby in the hopes of starting a pubby wagon not because I necessarily thought he was scum, but because I thought he might be scum and it might provide useful interactions. I also had a reason for thinking he was a teensy bit more likely to be scum than others who already had votes on them, and I wam not interested in sharing that reason atm.


Prior to you moving your vote to pubby for "reasons" he had the following posts:

1. "vote iguanaiguana"
2. "I don't think we are in kansas anymore"

what possible read could you get out of that?

Ok, now this? This is actually rolefishing.

no it isn't.
1. because it was not intended to be.
2. because if your reasons had anything to do with your role in a relevant sense at the heck all... you 100% would not say "this is role fishing".
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Swowl on August 25, 2021, 02:11:03 pm
The reasons were admittedly very flimsy, but its not pro-town to keep pushing me for them.

*breathe in breathe out*

fine. not going to gain anything out of this anyways.

to your point, whatever reasons you could possibly have cannot possibly carry any weight, so I will stop.

Wanna make it clear I am stopping NOT because it is not pro town to push you one this... completely 100% disagree with that.
I find it very odd that you would feel the need to say "I have reasons I don't want to share" and then down the road be like "oh they are so flimsy". I feel like you would normally open with "I have a gut read" or just a simply answer at first saying the reasons were a stretch or something.

Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Glooble on August 25, 2021, 02:21:26 pm
The reasons were admittedly very flimsy, but its not pro-town to keep pushing me for them.

*breathe in breathe out*

fine. not going to gain anything out of this anyways.

to your point, whatever reasons you could possibly have cannot possibly carry any weight, so I will stop.

Wanna make it clear I am stopping NOT because it is not pro town to push you one this... completely 100% disagree with that.
I find it very odd that you would feel the need to say "I have reasons I don't want to share" and then down the road be like "oh they are so flimsy". I feel like you would normally open with "I have a gut read" or just a simply answer at first saying the reasons were a stretch or something.

I think it's pretty obvious that if a person says they have reasons and there is no extant public information to possibly explain those reasons, then the reasons must be based on information that is not public, and therefore to continue asking for them is rolefishing.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Swowl on August 25, 2021, 02:25:46 pm
The reasons were admittedly very flimsy, but its not pro-town to keep pushing me for them.

*breathe in breathe out*

fine. not going to gain anything out of this anyways.

to your point, whatever reasons you could possibly have cannot possibly carry any weight, so I will stop.

Wanna make it clear I am stopping NOT because it is not pro town to push you one this... completely 100% disagree with that.
I find it very odd that you would feel the need to say "I have reasons I don't want to share" and then down the road be like "oh they are so flimsy". I feel like you would normally open with "I have a gut read" or just a simply answer at first saying the reasons were a stretch or something.

I think it's pretty obvious that if a person says they have reasons and there is no extant public information to possibly explain those reasons, then the reasons must be based on information that is not public, and therefore to continue asking for them is rolefishing.

except it can't be role fishing... because he didn't do anything. it can't be any fishing. there are no fish. I don't even have a freeking pole.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on August 25, 2021, 02:33:55 pm
Glooble, if you voted someone on reasons that a person that is reading the thread can only conclude are due to your PR, then scum will always pick up on it, if they want to.

Do you want us to vote pubby out? Because if you do, then that is much more important than the D1 dance. If you simply wanted to push pubby, then voting him does not do that. You need to interact with him and ask him questions.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Glooble on August 25, 2021, 02:50:30 pm
Glooble, if you voted someone on reasons that a person that is reading the thread can only conclude are due to your PR, then scum will always pick up on it, if they want to.

Do you want us to vote pubby out? Because if you do, then that is much more important than the D1 dance. If you simply wanted to push pubby, then voting him does not do that. You need to interact with him and ask him questions.

If I wanted pubby exiled, I would still be voting for pubby. It was the very beginning of the game, I wanted a wagon so we'd have more stuff to analyze when we got a flip. I'm sorry I said I had reasons, if I'd known it was going to be the only thing people focused on I wouldn't have.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on August 25, 2021, 02:54:31 pm
Ok that's enough role fishing for today.

I kinda wish you had just said "I have mechanical reasons to want to vote pubby" instead of having to read that vote like a normal one and come to the conclusion it wasn't uninformed, like the rest of town's votes.

I'll take this time to chime in on the Didds wagon: Didds is town. Move on.

Vote: faust, but this is a placeholder. EoD is only tomorrow so I don't feel like making a definitive vote yet.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: faust on August 25, 2021, 03:00:23 pm
I'll take this time to chime in on the Didds wagon: Didds is town. Move on.
Preferably to Swowl.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: iguanaiguana on August 25, 2021, 03:54:14 pm


Your first point that "If I did" comments are scummy. I disagree. Swowl is one of the two people who read me best. Saying what I would do is based enirely on what I have done.  But that is also a belief thing and I won't say anything to change your mind... but you should also recognize it is a belief thing and not based in any evidence of my scum behavior.
I think it is an overstatement or exaggeration. In this game, no one can ignore each other because we are all trying to analyze one another. So maybe as scum, you make the exaggeration because you can lie, whereas as town you know you are not going to be completely able to ignore him. But as scum you are willing to say "I wouldn't do this as scum" when actually you would because you are lying. OK... this is definitely my weakest point of the three and I admit that. And yes I know I don't know your developed meta as well as some other players.
Quote
-snip-
Your second point is that no exile is scummy.  No, no it is not.
-snip-

Specifically in this RMM I think no exile is a bad thing to advocate for. We know this about the setup: "It will be role madness in that everyone will have a role, but the roles themselves will be mostly uncomplicated and there are no weird novel gimmicks." For that kind of a setup in particular, no exile is bad because we have uncomplicated roles... so the interesting things you claim may happen at night are less likely to happen because this game has been described as basically an RMM lite.

So IMO no exile is bad here and arguing for something bad and then basically only casting one vote and not participating in much scumhunting is scummy.
 
Quote
-snip-
Third point.... I am not mischaracterizing Globble's position. How much he was responsible for the extended discussion of massclaiming, on teh other hand, is arguable and a difference in perception.
-snip-

I disagree that it is a matter of perception. It is measurable. Glooble made exactly three posts, one after another, about the massclaim discussion amounting to a total of 198 words and 1084 characters. Faust has 9 posts on the topic, amounting to 326 words and 1870 characters. Glooble's posts are all responses to faust's and are part of his stated intent of tunneling faust to figure out his alignment. faust's posts are more various and interact with me, e, Glooble, and Awaclus.

Based on these measurements, I cast suspicion on your claim that you reread the massclaim discussion, which you say was a waste of time, and concluded that Glooble came off scummiest in the discussion.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: iguanaiguana on August 25, 2021, 04:01:09 pm
I was reading Swowl as town so I don't understand why faust is pushing Swowl. Swowl is another one who I don't know too well but he's definitely at least Tryhard!Swowl this game so why exile him D1?

I don't understand the basis for MiX thinking WCD is town. MiX if you have a good reason, I'm a very convinceable person who would like to know it. Right now I still think she's scum so I'm not going to just move because you say so.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: faust on August 25, 2021, 04:02:16 pm
Faust has 9 posts on the topic, amounting to 326 words and 1870 characters.
Can you tell me which posts these are supposed to be?
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Swowl on August 25, 2021, 04:05:04 pm
I was reading Swowl as town so I don't understand why faust is pushing Swowl. Swowl is another one who I don't know too well but he's definitely at least Tryhard!Swowl this game so why exile him D1?

I don't understand the basis for MiX thinking WCD is town. MiX if you have a good reason, I'm a very convinceable person who would like to know it. Right now I still think she's scum so I'm not going to just move because you say so.

Swowl = DatSwan if it helps iguana. changed the handle a bit back.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on August 25, 2021, 04:08:21 pm
Your first point that "If I did" comments are scummy. I disagree. Swowl is one of the two people who read me best. Saying what I would do is based enirely on what I have done.  But that is also a belief thing and I won't say anything to change your mind... but you should also recognize it is a belief thing and not based in any evidence of my scum behavior.

I think it is an overstatement or exaggeration. In this game, no one can ignore each other because we are all trying to analyze one another. So maybe as scum, you make the exaggeration because you can lie, whereas as town you know you are not going to be completely able to ignore him. But as scum you are willing to say "I wouldn't do this as scum" when actually you would because you are lying. OK... this is definitely my weakest point of the three and I admit that. And yes I know I don't know your developed meta as well as some other players.

Do you know Didds at all? Have you played with her before? I can't really go over this point before you answer this question.

Quote
-snip-
Your second point is that no exile is scummy.  No, no it is not.
-snip-

Specifically in this RMM I think no exile is a bad thing to advocate for. We know this about the setup: "It will be role madness in that everyone will have a role, but the roles themselves will be mostly uncomplicated and there are no weird novel gimmicks." For that kind of a setup in particular, no exile is bad because we have uncomplicated roles... so the interesting things you claim may happen at night are less likely to happen because this game has been described as basically an RMM lite.

So IMO no exile is bad here and arguing for something bad and then basically only casting one vote and not participating in much scumhunting is scummy.

Just because it's anti-town to not exile (or better yet, you think it's anti-town to not exile) doesn't mean Didds is more likely to be scum by advocating it. I'd like to see evidence that Didds is barely scumhunting.

Quote
-snip-
Third point.... I am not mischaracterizing Globble's position. How much he was responsible for the extended discussion of massclaiming, on teh other hand, is arguable and a difference in perception.
-snip-

I disagree that it is a matter of perception. It is measurable. Glooble made exactly three posts, one after another, about the massclaim discussion amounting to a total of 198 words and 1084 characters. Faust has 9 posts on the topic, amounting to 326 words and 1870 characters. Glooble's posts are all responses to faust's and are part of his stated intent of tunneling faust to figure out his alignment. faust's posts are more various and interact with me, e, Glooble, and Awaclus.

Based on these measurements, I cast suspicion on your claim that you reread the massclaim discussion, which you say was a waste of time, and concluded that Glooble came off scummiest in the discussion.

I reread the massclaim discussion, which was a waste of time, and concluded that Glooble came off scummiest in the discussion. Granted, I was biased by his previous posts, but still. I am town. It is possible for town to arrive at that conclusion. Franky, it's egotistical to say that it's not, and it's also reductive and not very helpful.

I don't understand the basis for MiX thinking WCD is town. MiX if you have a good reason, I'm a very convinceable person who would like to know it. Right now I still think she's scum so I'm not going to just move because you say so.

Didds has been Didds this game, which means she's town. I have no reason to scumread her yet.

This is a bad answer, but I don't have easy reasons that I can elaborate on, and I'd like for you to see this post before I go reread her.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on August 25, 2021, 04:10:04 pm
Faust has 9 posts on the topic, amounting to 326 words and 1870 characters.
Can you tell me which posts these are supposed to be?

I don't think Swowl is scum either but I'm willing to say that one of Didds/Swowl is more likely to be scum than any other 2 of my townreads.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on August 25, 2021, 04:14:32 pm
I reread Didds and they're town. Just look at their second post in the game and tell me that was made knowing scum's roles. It wasn't.

WCD, who is scum to you?

I dunno. (And I donít think anyone else really does either, except scum obvi). There is a pretty long list of folks who I think are towny. Mathdude, Dylan, and Galz are not on that list. And Iím not sure what I think of the current faust/Awaclus discussion.

Didds, can you explain why you thought mathdude and Dylan weren't towny to you at this point?
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: EFHW on August 25, 2021, 04:19:41 pm
Chiming back in on the reasons discussion, naked votes are much less helpful to town than votes with reasons. I know Awaclus disagrees, but how many times do his votes inspire follow up votes from other players? And why is his method so annoying to many of us? If you want the wagon to go through, you really do need to give reasons. faust tends to do naked votes for reactions, so maybe that was the case here. But scum would also do them to see what flies.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Dylan32 on August 25, 2021, 04:23:09 pm
So I hadn't paid attention to the shorter deadlines, so realizing it's tomorrow, I'll Vote: Glooble for now. I don't have any strong scumreads yet, but there's actually been more good conversations that will be useful for scumhunting after a flip or two than I remember in recent RMM D1s (thanks to the relative lack of human/cylon/military/civilian/forwards-backwards-timeline oriented conversations lol).

Right now I think iguana is town, and Awaclus and faust are somewhat towny. I would be willing to exile basically any one of {Glooble, WCD, Swowl, e, EFHW}.

ppe 2
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: EFHW on August 25, 2021, 04:28:51 pm
Short days!

@e, what made you think of massclaim, anyway? They are usually disasters for town Day 1.

Iíve never seen it actually happen but I can imagine the disastrous scenarios. The one thing different in this game might be that I think our flavor names are unique and there probably isnít a huge pool of possibly fake names since the WOOz is such a familiar text. I donít think this reason is good enough to advocate for it, but it does seem different than the games weíve played that are less tied to flavor.
MiX, is this the post you mean? I'm not getting obv!town from this. In fact, it sounds to me like she is supporting massclaim. The reference to fake names is also something that scum would thinking about more than town. And Didds has gotten pretty good lately at sounding towny when she isn't actually town. I haven't reviewed iguana's case on her in any detail yet, so for now I'm just questioning the conclusions you drew from this post.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on August 25, 2021, 04:29:51 pm
Short days!

@e, what made you think of massclaim, anyway? They are usually disasters for town Day 1.

Iíve never seen it actually happen but I can imagine the disastrous scenarios. The one thing different in this game might be that I think our flavor names are unique and there probably isnít a huge pool of possibly fake names since the WOOz is such a familiar text. I donít think this reason is good enough to advocate for it, but it does seem different than the games weíve played that are less tied to flavor.
MiX, is this the post you mean? I'm not getting obv!town from this. In fact, it sounds to me like she is supporting massclaim. The reference to fake names is also something that scum would thinking about more than town. And Didds has gotten pretty good lately at sounding towny when she isn't actually town. I haven't reviewed iguana's case on her in any detail yet, so for now I'm just questioning the conclusions you drew from this post.

Yes, it was.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: EFHW on August 25, 2021, 04:50:02 pm
I reread iguana's case, and partially agree with it. I also find "I wouldn't do this as scum" arguments scummy. But I've been present at the discussions with Shraeye about D1 no exile, and her points are very consistent with his. So NAI there. Iguana quoted part of this post:

 
Geez, Swowl. I ❤️ you so much. We are peacocks!

So I was saying hey and I missed you, and I voted because I hadnít voted for anyone and Joth had just announced the five day days. But I was never gonna exile you D1.

I think it is super weird that Galz decided to characterize the lack of  behavior that I donít usually exhibit was scummy. And he said I was doing it to look like I was engaging in the game, but heís actually done something far more hollow than he accused me of. Itís weird.

To your questions, MiXÖ. Iíve had a hard time getting into things in the last 24 hours because Glooble and faust essenatilly turned an off hand comment by e about massclaiming into a pretty deep tangent that mimic the kind of set-up talk that makes me glaze over. When I cast back, I think Glooble comes from scummier than faust in that exchange.

I will vote: Glooble for now

This does ring some medium level scumbells for me. "Can't get into the game" and "Glooble comes off scummier in the exchange" and blaming that discussion for her lack of posting all feel like someone with a weak investment in scumhunting.

vote: Didds. I would go back to e. Also would vote Galz or faust. Need to reread Glooble.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: EFHW on August 25, 2021, 04:51:22 pm
I forgot mathdude. I would also vote for him.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on August 25, 2021, 04:58:43 pm
Well I'm not gonna stop you from exiling Didds. But she is town.

Vote: Glooble

Vote Count 1.3.MiX

WestCoastDidds (4): Galzria, iguanaiguana, Glooble, EFHW
Glooble (3): WestCoastDidds, Dylan32, MiX
Swowl (2): faust, Awaclus
2.71828.... (1): Swowl
iguanaiguana (1): pubby
EFHW (1): 2.71828....

Not voting (1): mathdude

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to exile. Day 1 ends at 7 pm on Thursday, forum time (in 26 hours).
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: WestCoastDidds on August 25, 2021, 05:11:20 pm
I reread Didds and they're town. Just look at their second post in the game and tell me that was made knowing scum's roles. It wasn't.

WCD, who is scum to you?

I dunno. (And I donít think anyone else really does either, except scum obvi). There is a pretty long list of folks who I think are towny. Mathdude, Dylan, and Galz are not on that list. And Iím not sure what I think of the current faust/Awaclus discussion.

Didds, can you explain why you thought mathdude and Dylan weren't towny to you at this point?

So, the other person who reads me well besides Swowl is MiX.

I donít have a reason they werenít towny, really. Mathdude hasnít done much and Iím still getting to know him so null. Iím still salty with Dylan for leading to my loss last game, so Iím going gonna have a hard time finding him towny at all. And you didnít ask but, Galz is obvious. He wastes are times with his now predictable attacks on me. I didnt and donít think they scummyÖjust not towny.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: WestCoastDidds on August 25, 2021, 05:16:43 pm
It is in the best interest of town of I donít have to reveal my role, so yíall figure something else out before we run out of time.  A bad wagon is literally the very best way for scum to role fish.

MiX, we have 26 hours. I donít want to make your head explode by revealing information you think is better for town to be kept secret, so you tell me when I should claim.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on August 25, 2021, 05:19:06 pm
It is in the best interest of town of I donít have to reveal my role, so yíall figure something else out before we run out of time.  A bad wagon is literally the very best way for scum to role fish.

MiX, we have 26 hours. I donít want to make your head explode by revealing information you think is better for town to be kept secret, so you tell me when I should claim.

I have no idea, I'd prefer to see how the thread goes in the next 12 hours, since that's america's time and I'll be sleeping through most of it.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: WestCoastDidds on August 25, 2021, 05:30:41 pm

This does ring some medium level scumbells for me. "Can't get into the game" and "Glooble comes off scummier in the exchange" and blaming that discussion for her lack of posting all feel like someone with a weak investment in scumhunting.

vote: Didds. I would go back to e. Also would vote Galz or faust. Need to reread Glooble.

There was no lack of posting on my part. I was answering questions iguana asked and responding to Galz.  I was participating, I just wasnít engaged. I donít feel like I was moving the game forward because I felt like we were spinning. So, there may have been a little scumhunting, but that was my whole point. I was frustrated that I couldnít find a way in. This current turn of events is frustrating to me, too, but it is least more productive because 4 people voting for me increases the likely good one of them is scum. Probably you or Glooble.

I believe in the Glooble/faust determination that Glooble comes off scummier. That is an assessment. That isnít scummy. Nothing has happened since I made that assessment to change my mind. I continue to think Glooble is more scummy than faust.

I get feeling being extra suspicious because Iíve been scum recently, but if I sound like town, itís because I am.

PPE 1
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: WestCoastDidds on August 25, 2021, 05:31:11 pm
It is in the best interest of town of I donít have to reveal my role, so yíall figure something else out before we run out of time.  A bad wagon is literally the very best way for scum to role fish.

MiX, we have 26 hours. I donít want to make your head explode by revealing information you think is better for town to be kept secret, so you tell me when I should claim.

I have no idea, I'd prefer to see how the thread goes in the next 12 hours, since that's america's time and I'll be sleeping through most of it.

Iím glad youíve taken up the hobby of sleeping! Itís a good one!
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: mathdude on August 25, 2021, 05:40:04 pm
Is there more posting than usual? Or is it just that I'm busy working these days (instead of in front of a computer doing schoolwork) that means I'm having trouble keeping up?

I am reading. But when I see something I want to reply to, I want to read to the end of all current posts before posting, then find someone else says almost the exact things I was thinking.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: mathdude on August 25, 2021, 05:59:12 pm
I'm never useful day 1. I usually can't develop scumreads this early. I voted for pubby in the hopes of starting a pubby wagon not because I necessarily thought he was scum, but because I thought he might be scum and it might provide useful interactions. I also had a reason for thinking he was a teensy bit more likely to be scum than others who already had votes on them, and I wam not interested in sharing that reason atm.


Prior to you moving your vote to pubby for "reasons" he had the following posts:

1. "vote iguanaiguana"
2. "I don't think we are in kansas anymore"

what possible read could you get out of that?

Ok, now this? This is actually rolefishing.

no it isn't.
1. because it was not intended to be.
2. because if your reasons had anything to do with your role in a relevant sense at the heck all... you 100% would not say "this is role fishing".

Maybe it wasn't said trying to rolefish. But it was perceived as such. But I was actually wanting to poke a little more at the reasons too. I think I disagree that asking things that seem like rolefishing D1 is scummy.

If someone is making a claim "with reasons", but not wanting to give the reasons... they are either vanilla and trying to draw scum's roles (not applicable here in RMM, even lite), or they might actually be scum. Holding back reasons just makes us all focus on that, which scum want distractions like that. If we did actually ignore the lack of listed reasons, as is apparently intended, and don't "fish", (and if said person is actually a town PR), scum already knows that. The only thing being hidden is how scum might best target (RB, kill, whatever).

TL;DR: I don't think there's any town reason to make it seem like there are valid reasons for a vote, especially D1 and especially RMM...

Especially now that we know the reasons were mechanical, not even role-based (which it sounded like they might be).
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: mathdude on August 25, 2021, 06:15:26 pm
Regarding the Glooble, WCD, and Swowl votes, even though they are regulars, I don't really have reads on them (or EFHW) D1... they don't stand out to me much, one way or another. For those 4, I'm not seeing things that I interpret as scummy.

For the moment, I'll have to trust our IC and not vote Didds (don't get used to it, MiX!)

I'm getting a gut feel that faust is scum, and there's connections between him and both Awaclus and Glooble, so keep an eye, possibly on 2 or all 3 of those.

I'd rather vote faust or go back to e. But to keep another wagon going, for now, I'll
vote: Glooble
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Glooble on August 25, 2021, 06:16:19 pm
Ok, I admit it.

I no longer have any idea why I said the word reasons.

That fact is, I wasn't thinking that much about it. Which is another thing that's townie, because as scum I consider my words a lot more carefully.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Glooble on August 25, 2021, 06:17:04 pm
At what point do I claim, given that once my role is revealed we will need time to find an alternate wagon?
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on August 25, 2021, 06:19:01 pm
At what point do I claim, given that once my role is revealed we will need time to find an alternate wagon?

I have no idea, I'd prefer to see how the thread goes in the next 12 hours, since that's america's time and I'll be sleeping through most of it.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: WestCoastDidds on August 25, 2021, 06:26:25 pm
Glooble, if itís not me and itís not you (weíre both voting for each other), who is it?

(Or is it time that we legit think about the wisdom of not losing any of our power roles with what we all know is a stab in the dark?)
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Glooble on August 25, 2021, 07:14:22 pm
Glooble, if itís not me and itís not you (weíre both voting for each other), who is it?

(Or is it time that we legit think about the wisdom of not losing any of our power roles with what we all know is a stab in the dark?)

Swowl? faust? Or maybe someone lying low and letting town fight it out.

I'd take no exile over my exile certainly.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Glooble on August 25, 2021, 07:22:39 pm
I also still think that post from Dylan that I pointed out and said was scummy was scummy.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: iguanaiguana on August 25, 2021, 08:13:49 pm
Glooble is a really bad vote. I'm at work so kinda busy today. Yes I knew Didds, I maybe didn't play with her quite as much as the others
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: WestCoastDidds on August 25, 2021, 08:48:51 pm
This shouldnít be a choice between Glooble and me. Good gravy, people. Quit doing the scum work for them.

Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: WestCoastDidds on August 25, 2021, 08:49:07 pm
Unvote
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: mathdude on August 25, 2021, 08:53:34 pm
Glooble, if itís not me and itís not you (weíre both voting for each other), who is it?

(Or is it time that we legit think about the wisdom of not losing any of our power roles with what we all know is a stab in the dark?)

Swowl? faust? Or maybe someone lying low and letting town fight it out.

I'd take no exile over my exile certainly.

Yet your vote is still on Didds, who is apparently a "bad vote" (town-read by our IC, if nothing else convinces you at least for D1, like some other people are also reading live iguana now too).

Follow this post up with a vote. IIRC, you have been connected to faust by various people, but you said you're willing to vote him. Here, I'll start.

vote: faust
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on August 25, 2021, 08:53:40 pm
Unvote

Unvote
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: pubby on August 25, 2021, 10:05:25 pm
This shouldnít be a choice between Glooble and me.
Yeah it's awful. I would vote for both of you if I could  8)

Glooble is a really bad vote. I'm at work so kinda busy today. Yes I knew Didds, I maybe didn't play with her quite as much as the others
What makes him a really bad vote? This is d1. Our decisions can't be *that* informed.

At what point do I claim, given that once my role is revealed we will need time to find an alternate wagon?
You just hinted you have an important role, no? That's almost as bad as a full claim.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: faust on August 26, 2021, 12:47:06 am
Chiming back in on the reasons discussion, naked votes are much less helpful to town than votes with reasons. I know Awaclus disagrees, but how many times do his votes inspire follow up votes from other players? And why is his method so annoying to many of us? If you want the wagon to go through, you really do need to give reasons. faust tends to do naked votes for reactions, so maybe that was the case here. But scum would also do them to see what flies.
I don't do naked votes "for reactions". I usually vote for who I think is scum. If Awaclus inspires follow-up votes less often than others (which I am not even sure is the case), then that is not necessarily because he doesn't give reasons. I know of a couple of times where I voted without giving reasons and that inspired follow-up votes.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: faust on August 26, 2021, 12:48:25 am
I will accept no exile before I vote for either Didds or Glooble.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: faust on August 26, 2021, 12:50:56 am
I'm getting a gut feel that faust is scum, and there's connections between him and both Awaclus and Glooble, so keep an eye, possibly on 2 or all 3 of those.
What is this vague conspiracy talk?
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: faust on August 26, 2021, 12:52:26 am
This shouldnít be a choice between Glooble and me. Good gravy, people. Quit doing the scum work for them.
It's reasonably likely that actual scum are doing some of that work.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Swowl on August 26, 2021, 01:20:14 am
Hey faust - wanna share why you find my skummy yet?
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: faust on August 26, 2021, 01:23:06 am
Hey faust - wanna share why you find my skummy yet?
I'm contemplating it.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Swowl on August 26, 2021, 01:27:35 am
I will accept no exile before I vote for either Didds or Glooble.

strange, as you find me skummy and yet I did not jump on either of those wagons.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Awaclus on August 26, 2021, 01:54:43 am
Nexile is objectively bad. Even though people have night powers, it's reasonable to expect that scum has more powerful night powers because otherwise the game would be heavily town-favored. And so, ideally, we want to minimize the number of nights we have.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Awaclus on August 26, 2021, 02:09:51 am
Also I'm going back to vote: e.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: faust on August 26, 2021, 02:22:12 am
Nexile is objectively bad. Even though people have night powers, it's reasonable to expect that scum has more powerful night powers because otherwise the game would be heavily town-favored. And so, ideally, we want to minimize the number of nights we have.
That argument is taking a couple of leaps. The game would not be town-favored just because town have "better" powers. There could be more scum to make up for it. In fact, the scum-to-town ratio in RMMs is usually higher specifically because town's powers are better than in a normal game compared to scum's. So you can stop making claims about "objectivity".
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Awaclus on August 26, 2021, 02:28:47 am
Nexile is objectively bad. Even though people have night powers, it's reasonable to expect that scum has more powerful night powers because otherwise the game would be heavily town-favored. And so, ideally, we want to minimize the number of nights we have.
That argument is taking a couple of leaps. The game would not be town-favored just because town have "better" powers. There could be more scum to make up for it. In fact, the scum-to-town ratio in RMMs is usually higher specifically because town's powers are better than in a normal game compared to scum's. So you can stop making claims about "objectivity".

Then why don't we just automatically nexile every day and win with our superior night powers instead?
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: faust on August 26, 2021, 02:41:38 am
Nexile is objectively bad. Even though people have night powers, it's reasonable to expect that scum has more powerful night powers because otherwise the game would be heavily town-favored. And so, ideally, we want to minimize the number of nights we have.
That argument is taking a couple of leaps. The game would not be town-favored just because town have "better" powers. There could be more scum to make up for it. In fact, the scum-to-town ratio in RMMs is usually higher specifically because town's powers are better than in a normal game compared to scum's. So you can stop making claims about "objectivity".

Then why don't we just automatically nexile every day and win with our superior night powers instead?
I guess it's within flavor to put up a strawman?
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Awaclus on August 26, 2021, 02:46:06 am
Nexile is objectively bad. Even though people have night powers, it's reasonable to expect that scum has more powerful night powers because otherwise the game would be heavily town-favored. And so, ideally, we want to minimize the number of nights we have.
That argument is taking a couple of leaps. The game would not be town-favored just because town have "better" powers. There could be more scum to make up for it. In fact, the scum-to-town ratio in RMMs is usually higher specifically because town's powers are better than in a normal game compared to scum's. So you can stop making claims about "objectivity".

Then why don't we just automatically nexile every day and win with our superior night powers instead?
I guess it's within flavor to put up a strawman?

If nexiling every day is obviously a bad idea (which it is), then it seems equally obvious that nexiling is bad in general.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: faust on August 26, 2021, 02:47:35 am
Nexile is objectively bad. Even though people have night powers, it's reasonable to expect that scum has more powerful night powers because otherwise the game would be heavily town-favored. And so, ideally, we want to minimize the number of nights we have.
That argument is taking a couple of leaps. The game would not be town-favored just because town have "better" powers. There could be more scum to make up for it. In fact, the scum-to-town ratio in RMMs is usually higher specifically because town's powers are better than in a normal game compared to scum's. So you can stop making claims about "objectivity".

Then why don't we just automatically nexile every day and win with our superior night powers instead?
I guess it's within flavor to put up a strawman?

If nexiling every day is obviously a bad idea (which it is), then it seems equally obvious that nexiling is bad in general.
If exiling e in every game is obviously a bad idea (which it is), then it seems equally obvious that exiling e is bad in general.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Awaclus on August 26, 2021, 02:58:15 am
If exiling e in every game is obviously a bad idea (which it is), then it seems equally obvious that exiling e is bad in general.

Exiling e in every game is not obviously a bad idea. It's possible that he's scum in every game.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: faust on August 26, 2021, 03:30:53 am
Exchanges like these make me wonder if I'm too charitable with Awaclus.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Galzria on August 26, 2021, 03:43:28 am
Except Awaclus is right.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: faust on August 26, 2021, 03:47:29 am
I'm really not trying to convince anyone to no exile. It's just that if the choice is exile someone I townread or no exile, then I will choose no exile in this game.

If you want to make sure we get an exile, you could of course join me on a scummy player rather than, like Galzria, leave a pointless vote on a wagon that is never going to succeed because the IC (rightly) opposes it.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: faust on August 26, 2021, 03:49:18 am
I mean, at least I am open about thinking no exile being an option. Galzria claims to be opposed to it while doing his best to make sure that's what happens.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: faust on August 26, 2021, 03:50:24 am
Vote: Galzria

I've talked myself into a rage vote.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Galzria on August 26, 2021, 03:51:35 am
Good thing the IC doesnít dictate who we exile. Itís crazy, but itís almost like they have less knowledge than literally anybody in the game.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Galzria on August 26, 2021, 03:52:52 am
Well I'm not gonna stop you from exiling Didds. But she is town.

Vote: Glooble

Vote Count 1.3.MiX

WestCoastDidds (4): Galzria, iguanaiguana, Glooble, EFHW
Glooble (3): WestCoastDidds, Dylan32, MiX
Swowl (2): faust, Awaclus
2.71828.... (1): Swowl
iguanaiguana (1): pubby
EFHW (1): 2.71828....

Not voting (1): mathdude

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to exile. Day 1 ends at 7 pm on Thursday, forum time (in 26 hours).

Look! No IC on the leasing wagon! Impossible! That canít happen! No way no how!
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: faust on August 26, 2021, 03:56:05 am
Good thing the IC doesnít dictate who we exile. Itís crazy, but itís almost like they have less knowledge than literally anybody in the game.
I for example have the knowledge that it's almost impossible to get a town-controlled wagon on Didds to succeed if MiX and me oppose it. Which means the only way a Didds exile is going to happen is because scum wants it to happen.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Awaclus on August 26, 2021, 04:00:51 am
Good thing the IC doesnít dictate who we exile. Itís crazy, but itís almost like they have less knowledge than literally anybody in the game.
I for example have the knowledge that it's almost impossible to get a town-controlled wagon on Didds to succeed if MiX and me oppose it. Which means the only way a Didds exile is going to happen is because scum wants it to happen.

If we have 3 scum, we can have all scum and 3 townies opposed to a Didds exile and it can still go through as long as everyone else is on board.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: faust on August 26, 2021, 04:03:46 am
Exiling e in every game is not obviously a bad idea. It's possible that he's scum in every game.
If we have 3 scum, we can have all scum and 3 townies opposed to a Didds exile and it can still go through as long as everyone else is on board.
You're trying really hard to hold on to those minuscule-likelihood scenarios aren't you?
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: faust on August 26, 2021, 04:05:22 am
TIL that miniscule (the spelling I had in my head) is apparently wrong.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Galzria on August 26, 2021, 04:07:26 am
Good thing the IC doesnít dictate who we exile. Itís crazy, but itís almost like they have less knowledge than literally anybody in the game.
I for example have the knowledge that it's almost impossible to get a town-controlled wagon on Didds to succeed if MiX and me oppose it. Which means the only way a Didds exile is going to happen is because scum wants it to happen.

Thatís such a nonsense argument as it applies to anyone in the game - and isnít even a good argument at that.

13 players, you and MiX made up 2. That leaves 11. It takes 7 to exile. Doubt thereís more than 4 scum. So even if youíre town, town all get on a wagon together without you and MiX to get an exile through.

If the exile is on town, yes, youíre right, thereís probably scum aboard that wagon. Thatís how we do analysis in future days. And if the exile is on scum, well guess what, we still get to do analysis of where the votes came from and when!

See, thatís how this game is played. Not by some dictator deciding who we get to exile and when.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Awaclus on August 26, 2021, 04:12:48 am
Exiling e in every game is not obviously a bad idea. It's possible that he's scum in every game.
If we have 3 scum, we can have all scum and 3 townies opposed to a Didds exile and it can still go through as long as everyone else is on board.
You're trying really hard to hold on to those minuscule-likelihood scenarios aren't you?

How is it a minuscule-likelihood scenario? There's always going to be either exactly 7 townies or at least 1 scum on the wagon on D1, and the other townies will be off the wagon and their opinions won't make a difference, and neither will their IC status or lack thereof.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Galzria on August 26, 2021, 04:18:28 am
I'm really not trying to convince anyone to no exile. It's just that if the choice is exile someone I townread or no exile, then I will choose no exile in this game.

If you want to make sure we get an exile, you could of course join me on a scummy player rather than, like Galzria, leave a pointless vote on a wagon that is never going to succeed because the IC (rightly) opposes it.

You can fairly say ďI oppose WCDís exile and will not take part in it happening.Ē

You cannot fairly say ďBecause I oppose it and so does the IC, anybody that chooses to pursue it is wasting everybodyís time with pointless votes.Ē

There are more than enough people, hell likely more than enough TOWN, to get an exile through that you happen to disagree with. Your disagreement doesnít make their reads pointless or invalid.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: faust on August 26, 2021, 04:26:43 am
Exiling e in every game is not obviously a bad idea. It's possible that he's scum in every game.
If we have 3 scum, we can have all scum and 3 townies opposed to a Didds exile and it can still go through as long as everyone else is on board.
You're trying really hard to hold on to those minuscule-likelihood scenarios aren't you?

How is it a minuscule-likelihood scenario? There's always going to be either exactly 7 townies or at least 1 scum on the wagon on D1, and the other townies will be off the wagon and their opinions won't make a difference, and neither will their IC status or lack thereof.
It's not that different from other games; I think you should always be wary of wagons that your townreads oppose unless you have a good reason to think otherwise. Here, everyone knows that MiX is town, and from Galzria's previously posted readslist I would think that he townreads me as well. That should make him at least think twice about supporting that wagon.

Also given MiX's stated preference, assuming Didds was scum, it is easier for her teammates to not feel compelled to bus, so I think it is particularly unlikely for that wagon to succeed - usually, even correct exiles on scum have other scum on the wagon.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Awaclus on August 26, 2021, 04:33:50 am
It's not that different from other games; I think you should always be wary of wagons that your townreads oppose unless you have a good reason to think otherwise.

Your townreads, sure. But the IC, unlike your townreads, has less information than anyone else, which is why your own reads are by default better than theirs unless there's a good reason to think otherwise.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: faust on August 26, 2021, 04:43:55 am
It's not that different from other games; I think you should always be wary of wagons that your townreads oppose unless you have a good reason to think otherwise.

Your townreads, sure. But the IC, unlike your townreads, has less information than anyone else, which is why your own reads are by default better than theirs unless there's a good reason to think otherwise.
Just because they know the alignment of 1 fewer players doesn't mean it's sensible to completely disregard their reads. The less-informedness of their reads compared to your townreads is made up for by the plus in trustworthiness; your townreads could still be scum, after all.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Awaclus on August 26, 2021, 04:52:39 am
It's not that different from other games; I think you should always be wary of wagons that your townreads oppose unless you have a good reason to think otherwise.

Your townreads, sure. But the IC, unlike your townreads, has less information than anyone else, which is why your own reads are by default better than theirs unless there's a good reason to think otherwise.
Just because they know the alignment of 1 fewer players doesn't mean it's sensible to completely disregard their reads. The less-informedness of their reads compared to your townreads is made up for by the plus in trustworthiness; your townreads could still be scum, after all.

Well, obviously you shouldn't just sheep your townreads either. But even if they're scum contrary to your reads, their reads are worth paying more attention to than the IC's.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on August 26, 2021, 06:18:27 am
What a conversation. Faust is town from it.

I haven't even given you guys a counterwagon and you're already talking about not following me on principle.

For Didds to flip scum when I'm against it, all of town has to agree on who's scum D1. I don't think we're at that point with Didds.

But it's not like I'm going to oppose the Didds wagon aggressively. Do whatever. I think I pushed town!Glooble all day and the other wagon options don't intetest me anyway.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on August 26, 2021, 06:31:49 am
Vote: e

Vote Count 1.3.MiX.2

WestCoastDidds (4): Galzria, iguanaiguana, Glooble, EFHW
2.71828.... (3): Swowl, Awaclus, MiX
Glooble (1): Dylan32
iguanaiguana (1): pubby
EFHW (1): 2.71828....
faust (1): mathdude
Galzria (1): faust

Not voting (1): WestCoastDidds

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to exile. Day 1 ends at 7 pm on Thursday, forum time (in 12:30 hours).
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Glooble on August 26, 2021, 06:35:17 am
vote: e

I think I like it slightly better than Didds.

Unfortunately I won't be around at deadline, but I can be on a little bit before.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on August 26, 2021, 06:48:58 am
If exiling e in every game is obviously a bad idea (which it is), then it seems equally obvious that exiling e is bad in general.

Exiling e in every game is not obviously a bad idea. It's possible that he's scum in every game.

Exiling e in every game is obviously a bad idea. It's just that faust's extrapolation from "every day" to "every game" significantly changes the argument/statement, so it can't disprove what you said. But meh, it's not like the way you argue is alignment indicative.

It's not that different from other games; I think you should always be wary of wagons that your townreads oppose unless you have a good reason to think otherwise.

Your townreads, sure. But the IC, unlike your townreads, has less information than anyone else, which is why your own reads are by default better than theirs unless there's a good reason to think otherwise.
Just because they know the alignment of 1 fewer players doesn't mean it's sensible to completely disregard their reads. The less-informedness of their reads compared to your townreads is made up for by the plus in trustworthiness; your townreads could still be scum, after all.

Well, obviously you shouldn't just sheep your townreads either. But even if they're scum contrary to your reads, their reads are worth paying more attention to than the IC's.

You changed arguments here.


Also let it be known I'm vehemently opposed to Galzria's posts, but I can't point to anything specifically that's completely wrong or very scummy.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: 2.71828..... on August 26, 2021, 07:02:49 am
Hey, a wagon. Sorry, this week got busy at work and home, haven't kept up like I would have liked
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: 2.71828..... on August 26, 2021, 07:05:31 am
But going to argue the case against me, it's a day 1 case that is about as good as any other

I will go back and look at a few people as well as WCD (simply because age is the other wagon, not a fan of exiling there) and see what I find.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: 2.71828..... on August 26, 2021, 07:10:06 am
In another note, I will not vote Didds just for self preservation
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: 2.71828..... on August 26, 2021, 07:23:30 am
All right. Read WCD

WCD is solidly town. That wagon is scummy. I will go with an intersection of overreaction to IC!MiX and going after WCD.

Vote: Galzria

Now to read Galzria
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: 2.71828..... on August 26, 2021, 07:53:13 am
So, really like my Galzria vote after reading him.

- Opens with his joke about MiX being IC
- second post theory talk about the setup
- case on Didds is flimsy at best. In fact, the case is basically that WCD is not overtly aware of a V/LA situation. I would argue the opposite, that not being aware is more likely in town.

Speaking of which, really Galzria is super duper ultra aware. Like, scum level aware. So aware that he thinks everyone else is aware.

Then there are just more posts, the would exile/won't exile list, standard stuff.

But yeah, I like voting for Galzria
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: WestCoastDidds on August 26, 2021, 08:39:05 am
This shouldnít be a choice between Glooble and me. Good gravy, people. Quit doing the scum work for them.
It's reasonably likely that actual scum are doing some of that work.

True enough!
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: WestCoastDidds on August 26, 2021, 08:51:40 am
So Galz has moved from going after me directly, to going after me indirectly becauese some widely town read folks and the IC say Iím a bad wagon. It looks to me like all of his content is being generated out of the single desire to get me out. Which is weird, right? His case wasnít rock solid to begin with and now itís the focus of the entirety of his day. Very much the like the fake engagement he accuses me of, I think.

Itís not OMGUS anymore
Vote: Galz

The thing I wonder about though is if heíd be this out there if he was scum. I donít know. But then again, if he is scum and wants me out aiming early and being dogged might be his best strat? Not sure.

Iím also fine with nexile. To Awaclusí point, not nexile every day, but no exile on D1 because we could learn more tonight than we know now. I like that far better than voting for a null read which other than Galz, is pretty much everyone except my town reads right now.

Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Awaclus on August 26, 2021, 09:22:18 am
You changed arguments here.

No I didn't. See the original argument:

But the IC, unlike your townreads, has less information than anyone else

I was always including scum in the category of "has more information than the IC".
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Awaclus on August 26, 2021, 09:47:08 am
Iím also fine with nexile. To Awaclusí point, not nexile every day, but no exile on D1 because we could learn more tonight than we know now.

Couldn't we also learn more N2 than we know D1?
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Awaclus on August 26, 2021, 09:47:23 am
I mean D2.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: jotheonah on August 26, 2021, 09:49:14 am
 Not too long after embarking on the yellow brick road, Dorothy comes upon a straw man.

"You there," she says, "Which way should we go to find out who dropped that house on that person?"

"You could exile him, or her, or him" the Scarecrow says, pointing at a few different Munchkins and Toto. "Of course, people do no exile."

"Oh, you're not very helpful at all!"

Nonetheless, the Scarecrow hops down off his perch and joins Dorothy and Toto on the road.



Vote Count 1.4

2.71828.... (4): Swowl, Awaclus, MiX, Glooble
Galzria (3): faust, 2.71828...., WestCoastDidds
WestCoastDidds (3): Galzria, iguanaiguana, EFHW
Glooble (1): Dylan32
iguanaiguana (1): pubby
faust (1): mathdude

Not voting (0)

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to exile. Day 1 ends at 7 pm on Thursday, forum time. That's in just over 9 hours.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: faust on August 26, 2021, 09:57:49 am
Not too long after embarking on the yellow brick road, Dorothy comes upon a straw man.
I appreciate it  :D
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: EFHW on August 26, 2021, 10:01:40 am
Ok, I see the Didds wagon isn't going anywhere. While I don't share MiX and e's implicit trust, I recognize the Day 1 quality of my case. Didds keeps coming back to no exile. I've given some thought to that option, which often seems appealing on Day 1 when the exile feels random. But even if we misexile, that's not without benefit to town because we get information. After hearing people take positions, we find out what the truth was and this is clarifying and helpful down the line when looking for patterns. Without the Day 1 exile, Day 2 can feel like a repeat of Day 1.

I still haven't reread Glooble. I'll pick a wagon after I do that.

Unvote
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Glooble on August 26, 2021, 10:10:52 am
For the record, I don't really want a no exile, but Didds advocating for it is extremely NAI.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: mathdude on August 26, 2021, 10:57:54 am
Does anyone else get the impression that flavour texts in vote counts might actually mean something? Is MiX Dorothy? Or maybe Toto?
Also, Vote: e
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: mathdude on August 26, 2021, 10:59:10 am
... I'll be back in 1 to 2 hours with more thoughts (at lunch when I can take time to quote some of the posts I have thoughts about.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on August 26, 2021, 11:03:20 am
Does anyone else get the impression that flavour texts in vote counts might actually mean something? Is MiX Dorothy? Or maybe Toto?
Also, Vote: e

I am Dorothy. It was in the opening post.

I doubt anyone else's flavor will be revealed by joth.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: faust on August 26, 2021, 11:11:41 am
Don't go voting for e. Galzria is a much better exile.

So are like, a bunch of people. You could start a wagon on pubby, or Dylan or someone.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on August 26, 2021, 11:14:47 am
I think the only people that should be wagoned today are e, Galzria, Didds and Glooble. If anyone else is exiled today and flips town, that will just make D2 really awkward.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Galzria on August 26, 2021, 11:25:52 am
You should Exile me over no Exile 100%.

Vote: e

Also better than no Exile, although likely worse than exiling me if heís town. Didds still best Exile to hit scum.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on August 26, 2021, 11:28:43 am
Vote: Galzria
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on August 26, 2021, 11:31:18 am
That was L-1, come on Galzria.

Vote Count 1.4.MiX

2.71828.... (5): Swowl, Awaclus, Glooble, mathdude, Galzria
Galzria (3): faust, 2.71828...., WestCoastDidds, MiX
WestCoastDidds (1): iguanaiguana
Glooble (1): Dylan32
iguanaiguana (1): pubby

Not voting (1): EFHW

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to exile. Day 1 ends at 7 pm on Thursday, forum time. That's in 7:30 hours.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on August 26, 2021, 11:34:42 am
That was L-1, come on Galzria.

Vote Count 1.4.MiX

2.71828.... (5): Swowl, Awaclus, Glooble, mathdude, Galzria
Galzria (4): faust, 2.71828...., WestCoastDidds, MiX
WestCoastDidds (1): iguanaiguana
Glooble (1): Dylan32
iguanaiguana (1): pubby

Not voting (1): EFHW

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to exile. Day 1 ends at 7 pm on Thursday, forum time. That's in 7:30 hours.

EBWOP
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: EFHW on August 26, 2021, 11:53:47 am
I reread Glooble. There were some things that I noticed, but I don't want to exile him today.

vote: Galzria.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: WestCoastDidds on August 26, 2021, 11:54:07 am
I think the only people that should be wagoned today are e, Galzria, Didds and Glooble. If anyone else is exiled today and flips town, that will just make D2 really awkward.

That short list because there is more clear development of sides?
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Galzria on August 26, 2021, 12:01:45 pm
So, really like my Galzria vote after reading him.

- Opens with his joke about MiX being IC
- second post theory talk about the setup
- case on Didds is flimsy at best. In fact, the case is basically that WCD is not overtly aware of a V/LA situation. I would argue the opposite, that not being aware is more likely in town.

Speaking of which, really Galzria is super duper ultra aware. Like, scum level aware. So aware that he thinks everyone else is aware.

Then there are just more posts, the would exile/won't exile list, standard stuff.

But yeah, I like voting for Galzria

- I have opened with that exact same post to MiX in every game for over 30 consecutive games between this site and JimmmmísÖ with the exception of the last game I played in, where I was scum for the first time in a millennium and forgot (was scum with Didds & Math fwiw).

- Setup post is w/e. There were no real posts, didnít feel like RVSíing (donít generally) but wanted to keep my engagement up - the longer I go without posting something the harder it is for me to get back into it later.

- Again, youíre making the same bad argument faust did. It is GENERALLY for MOST scum more likely that theyíll be more aware than their town!selves. That doesnít hold true for WCD. She gets into try-hard mode when scum and attempts to go about checking every box, which almost always causes her to overlook something and get herself into trouble.

- Yes. Iím super duper ultra aware that Swowl was VLA. That generally happens when your roommate isnít in the house for 4 days.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: iguanaiguana on August 26, 2021, 12:02:41 pm
I'm here. I don't love these wagons.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: iguanaiguana on August 26, 2021, 12:16:23 pm
I'm not gonna lie. I worked overtime last night, I've got a headache, and I really just want to make a meme of a snowy owl saying "Bro, I don't even LIFT." I super don't want to reread Galzria who is as verbose as I am.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on August 26, 2021, 12:30:05 pm
- I have opened with that exact same post to MiX in every game for over 30 consecutive games between this site and JimmmmísÖ with the exception of the last game I played in, where I was scum for the first time in a millennium and forgot (was scum with Didds & Math fwiw).

That was also the only game I didn't play since I joined.

Well, that I didn't co-mod.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: iguanaiguana on August 26, 2021, 12:37:28 pm
Good thing the IC doesnít dictate who we exile. Itís crazy, but itís almost like they have less knowledge than literally anybody in the game.
I for example have the knowledge that it's almost impossible to get a town-controlled wagon on Didds to succeed if MiX and me oppose it. Which means the only way a Didds exile is going to happen is because scum wants it to happen.

I just want to point out that the Didds exile super didn't happen. It dissipated in all of a moment after getting four votes on it. So yes, if she's scum your scenario is most likely correct. The towns opposed it and scum were like, phew.

I was actually on the verge yesterday of thinking EFHW was scum, hopping on the Didds wagon in position #4 ready to watch a few more votes pile up and get the sweet sweet mis-exile. Now that EFHW's vote remains the apex of the Didds wagon it's much harder assess that move.

As it stands... I think we probably maybe have a T v T situation with the two exiles with scum voting on both wagons. I don't know but that's my gut feeling right now -.-
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Galzria on August 26, 2021, 12:48:03 pm
- I have opened with that exact same post to MiX in every game for over 30 consecutive games between this site and JimmmmísÖ with the exception of the last game I played in, where I was scum for the first time in a millennium and forgot (was scum with Didds & Math fwiw).

That was also the only game I didn't play since I joined.

Well, that I didn't co-mod.

Sorry, Iím mixing (ha) up games. Youíre right - you werenít in that one. It was Momento that I was scum, you were in, and I didnít make that opening post.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: WestCoastDidds on August 26, 2021, 01:00:02 pm

As it stands... I think we probably maybe have a T v T situation with the two exiles with scum voting on both wagons. I don't know but that's my gut feeling right now -.-

That was my sense and why I moved off Glooble
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: mathdude on August 26, 2021, 01:13:17 pm
Don't go voting for e. Galzria is a much better exile.

So are like, a bunch of people. You could start a wagon on pubby, or Dylan or someone.

Glooble is a really bad vote. I'm at work so kinda busy today. Yes I knew Didds, I maybe didn't play with her quite as much as the others

So, barring day roles, these are either 3rd parties, with real or supposed wincons compatible with town (masons?), people with QTs who explicitly trust their partner, scum/liars, or more people are more starting opinions as facts, like MiX.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: iguanaiguana on August 26, 2021, 01:14:13 pm

As it stands... I think we probably maybe have a T v T situation with the two exiles with scum voting on both wagons. I don't know but that's my gut feeling right now -.-

That was my sense and why I moved off Glooble

Not the previous half wagons of WCD V Glooble... which also COULD have been T v T. I'm talking about the current wagons of e vs. Galzria.

Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on August 26, 2021, 01:15:13 pm
Don't go voting for e. Galzria is a much better exile.

So are like, a bunch of people. You could start a wagon on pubby, or Dylan or someone.

Glooble is a really bad vote. I'm at work so kinda busy today. Yes I knew Didds, I maybe didn't play with her quite as much as the others

So, barring day roles, these are either 3rd parties, with real or supposed wincons compatible with town (masons?), people with QTs who explicitly trust their partner, scum/liars, or more people are more starting opinions as facts, like MiX.

Or humans.


As it stands... I think we probably maybe have a T v T situation with the two exiles with scum voting on both wagons. I don't know but that's my gut feeling right now -.-

That was my sense and why I moved off Glooble

Not the previous half wagons of WCD V Glooble... which also COULD have been T v T. I'm talking about the current wagons of e vs. Galzria.

Just pick the scum out of Didds/Glooble/e/Galzria. Unless you're saying they're all T? In which case, what a day this has been.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: mathdude on August 26, 2021, 01:30:38 pm
Nexile is objectively bad. Even though people have night powers, it's reasonable to expect that scum has more powerful night powers because otherwise the game would be heavily town-favored. And so, ideally, we want to minimize the number of nights we have.
That argument is taking a couple of leaps. The game would not be town-favored just because town have "better" powers. There could be more scum to make up for it. In fact, the scum-to-town ratio in RMMs is usually higher specifically because town's powers are better than in a normal game compared to scum's. So you can stop making claims about "objectivity".

Then why don't we just automatically nexile every day and win with our superior night powers instead?
I guess it's within flavor to put up a strawman?

If nexiling every day is obviously a bad idea (which it is), then it seems equally obvious that nexiling is bad in general.
If exiling e in every game is obviously a bad idea (which it is), then it seems equally obvious that exiling e is bad in general.

If exiling MiX every game is a good idea, then exiling MiX this game is...
Wait...
With MiX often coming across scummy, even when town, maybe I thought there was some truth to that. But this game clearly proves it's not always good to exile MiX.

Regarding the No Exile idea... unless town has a Vig, anyone is usually the only chance to kill scum. So I'm all for exile. And even if we miss, we get a good bunch of info from wagons... someone else already said, if we don't exile today, D2 can look a lot like a typical D1.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on August 26, 2021, 01:33:00 pm
If exiling MiX every game is a good idea, then exiling MiX this game is...
Wait...
With MiX often coming across scummy, even when town, maybe I thought there was some truth to that. But this game clearly proves it's not always good to exile MiX.

Regarding the No Exile idea... unless town has a Vig, anyone is usually the only chance to kill scum. So I'm all for exile. And even if we miss, we get a good bunch of info from wagons... someone else already said, if we don't exile today, D2 can look a lot like a typical D1.

Just because you can't read me doesn't mean I come across scummy every game :( I would say I'm obviously town this game, even without my alignment being known. This was only possible because I didn't need to care about people reading me, but still.

Those are just generic reasons to not want to exile. If the 2 top wagons are town, not exiling is better than exiling, especially in a RMM.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on August 26, 2021, 01:33:46 pm
Normal mafia rules apply.

Is there plurality exile?
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: faust on August 26, 2021, 01:36:22 pm
If exiling MiX every game is a good idea, then exiling MiX this game is...
Wait...
With MiX often coming across scummy, even when town, maybe I thought there was some truth to that. But this game clearly proves it's not always good to exile MiX.

Regarding the No Exile idea... unless town has a Vig, anyone is usually the only chance to kill scum. So I'm all for exile. And even if we miss, we get a good bunch of info from wagons... someone else already said, if we don't exile today, D2 can look a lot like a typical D1.

Just because you can't read me doesn't mean I come across scummy every game :(
I think mathdude was just stating his opinion as fact there, like some sort of maniac.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: iguanaiguana on August 26, 2021, 01:57:46 pm
Don't go voting for e. Galzria is a much better exile.

So are like, a bunch of people. You could start a wagon on pubby, or Dylan or someone.

Glooble is a really bad vote. I'm at work so kinda busy today. Yes I knew Didds, I maybe didn't play with her quite as much as the others

So, barring day roles, these are either 3rd parties, with real or supposed wincons compatible with town (masons?), people with QTs who explicitly trust their partner, scum/liars, or more people are more starting opinions as facts, like MiX.

Or humans.


As it stands... I think we probably maybe have a T v T situation with the two exiles with scum voting on both wagons. I don't know but that's my gut feeling right now -.-

That was my sense and why I moved off Glooble

Not the previous half wagons of WCD V Glooble... which also COULD have been T v T. I'm talking about the current wagons of e vs. Galzria.

Just pick the scum out of Didds/Glooble/e/Galzria. Unless you're saying they're all T? In which case, what a day this has been.

Didds Glooble is not a thing anymore. the votes for those options don't exist anymore and never existed to the point of even 5 votes for either player.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: iguanaiguana on August 26, 2021, 01:58:33 pm
Don't go voting for e. Galzria is a much better exile.

So are like, a bunch of people. You could start a wagon on pubby, or Dylan or someone.

Glooble is a really bad vote. I'm at work so kinda busy today. Yes I knew Didds, I maybe didn't play with her quite as much as the others

So, barring day roles, these are either 3rd parties, with real or supposed wincons compatible with town (masons?), people with QTs who explicitly trust their partner, scum/liars, or more people are more starting opinions as facts, like MiX.

I think you will find I have a long and storied history of stating my opinions as facts  8)
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: faust on August 26, 2021, 01:59:27 pm
Don't go voting for e. Galzria is a much better exile.

So are like, a bunch of people. You could start a wagon on pubby, or Dylan or someone.

Glooble is a really bad vote. I'm at work so kinda busy today. Yes I knew Didds, I maybe didn't play with her quite as much as the others

So, barring day roles, these are either 3rd parties, with real or supposed wincons compatible with town (masons?), people with QTs who explicitly trust their partner, scum/liars, or more people are more starting opinions as facts, like MiX.

I think you will find I have a long and storied history of stating my opinions as facts  8)
FTFY
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: iguanaiguana on August 26, 2021, 02:02:57 pm
So I did a lot of analysis in my QT and used fuzzy maths to determine that of my null reads on e and Galzria, e is the better exile.

I have intent to vote for e.

Before I put him in a derphammerable spot (remember when I used to play JakeThaBaseballGod and Roadrunner were around), I would like to hear from faust and MiX why they think that Galzria is a much better choice than e.

I also would not mind to hear from Mathdude and Glooble why they think that e is a better choice from Galzria.
 
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on August 26, 2021, 02:04:02 pm
So I did a lot of analysis in my QT and used fuzzy maths to determine that of my null reads on e and Galzria, e is the better exile.

I have intent to vote for e.

Before I put him in a derphammerable spot (remember when I used to play JakeThaBaseballGod and Roadrunner were around), I would like to hear from faust and MiX why they think that Galzria is a much better choice than e.

I also would not mind to hear from Mathdude and Glooble why they think that e is a better choice from Galzria.

You ain't gettin nothin from me
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: iguanaiguana on August 26, 2021, 02:05:49 pm
Actually, I'll try this first because why not

Vote: Swowl

Anybody? Anybody? Eh?
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: mathdude on August 26, 2021, 02:06:45 pm
It's not that different from other games; I think you should always be wary of wagons that your townreads oppose unless you have a good reason to think otherwise.

Your townreads, sure. But the IC, unlike your townreads, has less information than anyone else, which is why your own reads are by default better than theirs unless there's a good reason to think otherwise.
Just because they know the alignment of 1 fewer players doesn't mean it's sensible to completely disregard their reads. The less-informedness of their reads compared to your townreads is made up for by the plus in trustworthiness; your townreads could still be scum, after all.

I think this is important enough to highlight again. Yes, I know my own alignment and that of MiX. Whereas MiX only knows his own. But I think if we're starting to get into effectively second lines of logic... I'm considering the reads of people I town-read, or similar... even if I town-read Swowl, for example, I should be much more wary of Swowl's reads if MiX says he doesn't trust the guy.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: mathdude on August 26, 2021, 02:09:21 pm
Does anyone else get the impression that flavour texts in vote counts might actually mean something? Is MiX Dorothy? Or maybe Toto?
Also, Vote: e

I am Dorothy. It was in the opening post.

I doubt anyone else's flavor will be revealed by joth.

For some reason, I thought it was alluded to without being stated. I went back to look, and I was wrong.

Also, probably not revealed by joth, but possibly non-connectable info about the game could be included.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: mathdude on August 26, 2021, 02:10:33 pm
I think the only people that should be wagoned today are e, Galzria, Didds and Glooble. If anyone else is exiled today and flips town, that will just make D2 really awkward.

Once again this game, I find myself agreeing with MiX.Swowl could possibly be added to the list though, as there has been since discussion about him (though not as much).
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: iguanaiguana on August 26, 2021, 02:17:04 pm
I think the only people that should be wagoned today are e, Galzria, Didds and Glooble. If anyone else is exiled today and flips town, that will just make D2 really awkward.

Once again this game, I find myself agreeing with MiX.Swowl could possibly be added to the list though, as there has been since discussion about him (though not as much).

Swowl must needs be added to the list  8) Let's do a last minute exile the super buff snowy owl
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: mathdude on August 26, 2021, 02:17:52 pm
So I did a lot of analysis in my QT and used fuzzy maths to determine that of my null reads on e and Galzria, e is the better exile.

I have intent to vote for e.

Before I put him in a derphammerable spot (remember when I used to play JakeThaBaseballGod and Roadrunner were around), I would like to hear from faust and MiX why they think that Galzria is a much better choice than e.

I also would not mind to hear from Mathdude and Glooble why they think that e is a better choice from Galzria.

I think e's first post of the game was where my thoughts of e were tipped toward scummy (not the massclaim idea shortly after, that seemed to catch others... that's NAI to me). And he hasn't done much since that make me feel like he's gotten.

Galz on the other hand has basically flown under the radar most of the game in my mind. Only once starting to be targeted did some of his responses (specifically his first two on page 16) raise a bit of concern for me. I'd definitely switch to Galz if the e-wagon fizzles, rather than see no exile happen.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: 2.71828..... on August 26, 2021, 02:18:54 pm
So, really like my Galzria vote after reading him.

- Opens with his joke about MiX being IC
- second post theory talk about the setup
- case on Didds is flimsy at best. In fact, the case is basically that WCD is not overtly aware of a V/LA situation. I would argue the opposite, that not being aware is more likely in town.

Speaking of which, really Galzria is super duper ultra aware. Like, scum level aware. So aware that he thinks everyone else is aware.

Then there are just more posts, the would exile/won't exile list, standard stuff.

But yeah, I like voting for Galzria

- I have opened with that exact same post to MiX in every game for over 30 consecutive games between this site and JimmmmísÖ with the exception of the last game I played in, where I was scum for the first time in a millennium and forgot (was scum with Didds & Math fwiw).

- Setup post is w/e. There were no real posts, didnít feel like RVSíing (donít generally) but wanted to keep my engagement up - the longer I go without posting something the harder it is for me to get back into it later.

- Again, youíre making the same bad argument faust did. It is GENERALLY for MOST scum more likely that theyíll be more aware than their town!selves. That doesnít hold true for WCD. She gets into try-hard mode when scum and attempts to go about checking every box, which almost always causes her to overlook something and get herself into trouble.

- Yes. Iím super duper ultra aware that Swowl was VLA. That generally happens when your roommate isnít in the house for 4 days.

So basically WCD will catch herself as scum later if she is in fact scum? Cool, let's exile Didds day 3

Otherwise, yeah. All valid points in your defense. I still think you are a good exile
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: WestCoastDidds on August 26, 2021, 02:29:44 pm

So basically WCD will catch herself as scum later if she is in fact scum? Cool, let's exile Didds day 3

Sadly, it's a sterling and well earned reputation.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: WestCoastDidds on August 26, 2021, 02:33:21 pm
I have some work now, but will be around later

Didds Count

2.71828.... (5): Swowl, Awaclus, Glooble, mathdude, Galzria
Galzria (5): faust, 2.71828...., WestCoastDidds, MiX, EFHW
Swowl (1): iguanaiguana
Glooble (1): Dylan32
iguanaiguana (1): pubby


With 13 alive, it takes 7 to exile. Day 1 ends at 7 pm on Thursday, forum time. That's in ~4:30 hours.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Dylan32 on August 26, 2021, 02:45:26 pm
After reading both e and galz, I just think e is more likely to flip scum than galz. Also, galz, as e admitted, had really good points countering the case.

Vote: e

L-1

If iguana had voted instead of posting intent to vote, I'd have declared intent to hammer, but since one of the two people not on the main two wagons is already paying attention to not derphammer, this is fine.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: iguanaiguana on August 26, 2021, 02:49:44 pm
I'm probably gonna have to hammer that at some point.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: jotheonah on August 26, 2021, 02:51:33 pm
Normal mafia rules apply.

Is there plurality exile?

No. If no one reaches a majority, there will be no exile.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: 2.71828..... on August 26, 2021, 02:57:54 pm
Cowardly lion that I am, I will go ahead and claim.

I am a hider.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: 2.71828..... on August 26, 2021, 03:00:28 pm
I thought about making some sort of commitment to hide behind MiX or something, but that is silly.

I want going to hide at all because it is really just useless and could only end in tragedy, but I will commit to actually hiding tonight so trackers, etc who for whatever reason want to target me can ask least see something
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: 2.71828..... on August 26, 2021, 03:01:30 pm
So please, I may look fierce, but I am just a big harmless cat, scared of my own shadow
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on August 26, 2021, 03:12:28 pm
e is town.

Next claim!
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: jotheonah on August 26, 2021, 03:12:49 pm
 Meanwhile back in Munchkinland, the Coroner gives his official report.

"These feet belong to the leader of the Lollipop Guild, a well-known and influential Munchkin. But more importantly, we have found trace amounts of dark magic around the house! Yes, this house did not fall by accident, this was the work of the Wicked Witches of the West and/or East!"

"And my magic senses tell me that the witch that did it is hiding amongst us right now!" Glinda says.

"Huh, maybe we shouldn't have let that sweet girl go off all by herself," says the Mayor. "Oh well."

"Where are we, what's going on?" ask Uncle Henry and Auntie Em as they stagger out of the house. "I sure don't think we're in Kansas anymore."



Vote Count 1.5

2.71828.... (6): Swowl, Awaclus, Glooble, mathdude, Galzria, Dylan32 (L-1)
Galzria (5): faust, 2.71828...., WestCoastDidds, MiX, EFHW (L-2)
Swowl (1): iguanaiguana
iguanaiguana (1): pubby

Not voting (0)

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to exile. Day 1 ends at 7 pm on Thursday, forum time. That's in just under 4 hours.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Galzria on August 26, 2021, 03:15:33 pm
e is town.

Next claim!

Nah. Donít think so.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: 2.71828..... on August 26, 2021, 03:16:23 pm
Also, will be going to sleep here soon, won't be around for the deadline
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: iguanaiguana on August 26, 2021, 03:16:31 pm
I don't think it's terrible to let e live and see if we can verify his hiding
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Swowl on August 26, 2021, 03:18:21 pm
Morning was busier than expected.
Checking in, need a minute to read
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Dylan32 on August 26, 2021, 03:29:03 pm
I don't think it's terrible to let e live and see if we can verify his hiding

How exactly would we verify that? With this claim, scum probably wouldn't try to shoot him, so he'll probably live (unless unlucky target). If a tracker or similar watches him, are they really going to claim D2 that yeah he hid where he said he did? That seems more likely to waste an investigative role than to actually be beneficial. Unless of course the plan is to let e live for several days and hope the tracker or whatever lives long enough to get other results before coming forward and confirming or rejecting this claim, but that doesn't seem like a good play either.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Awaclus on August 26, 2021, 03:38:35 pm
Vote: Galzria
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Awaclus on August 26, 2021, 03:39:10 pm
That's L-1.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on August 26, 2021, 03:40:03 pm
Unvote
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: iguanaiguana on August 26, 2021, 03:42:24 pm
Vote: Galzria

I am baffled as to how e claiming hider convinced you to switch
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: 2.71828..... on August 26, 2021, 03:44:56 pm
I don't think it's terrible to let e live and see if we can verify his hiding

How exactly would we verify that? With this claim, scum probably wouldn't try to shoot him, so he'll probably live (unless unlucky target). If a tracker or similar watches him, are they really going to claim D2 that yeah he hid where he said he did? That seems more likely to waste an investigative role than to actually be beneficial. Unless of course the plan is to let e live for several days and hope the tracker or whatever lives long enough to get other results before coming forward and confirming or rejecting this claim, but that doesn't seem like a good play either.

Yeah, there is no great way to confirm my role other than having an extra death and you get to see my flip.

It would have to be a vig shooting me while a tracker watched me with a watcher verifying I was in fact shot....

Just all sorts of not worth it.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: iguanaiguana on August 26, 2021, 03:46:55 pm
Let's all vote Swowl
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Awaclus on August 26, 2021, 03:49:44 pm
Vote: Galzria

I am baffled as to how e claiming hider convinced you to switch

Because of reasons.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Swowl on August 26, 2021, 03:50:07 pm
Vote: Galzria

I am baffled as to how e claiming hider convinced you to switch

This. Fantastic potential fake claim that could work with many power roles they could actually have for verification.

That being said iguana if you really care that much i meanÖ you could of just hammered.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on August 26, 2021, 03:51:06 pm
Vote: Galzria

I am baffled as to how e claiming hider convinced you to switch

Because of reasons.

What reasons?
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: 2.71828..... on August 26, 2021, 03:51:15 pm
Let's all vote Swowl

no.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Awaclus on August 26, 2021, 03:51:35 pm
What reasons?

Good reasons.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Swowl on August 26, 2021, 03:51:47 pm
Let's all vote Swowl

I do not believe I have ever been looked at so much without literally a single reason ever being stated as to why I am skummy.
No defense on this one. Pure offense.
You are skummy for it, faust is skummy for it, and whoever the other person was (Dylan i think) is skummy for it.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on August 26, 2021, 03:51:54 pm
I don't think it's terrible to let e live and see if we can verify his hiding

How exactly would we verify that? With this claim, scum probably wouldn't try to shoot him, so he'll probably live (unless unlucky target). If a tracker or similar watches him, are they really going to claim D2 that yeah he hid where he said he did? That seems more likely to waste an investigative role than to actually be beneficial. Unless of course the plan is to let e live for several days and hope the tracker or whatever lives long enough to get other results before coming forward and confirming or rejecting this claim, but that doesn't seem like a good play either.

Yeah, there is no great way to confirm my role other than having an extra death and you get to see my flip.

It would have to be a vig shooting me while a tracker watched me with a watcher verifying I was in fact shot....

Just all sorts of not worth it.

Just a vig shot would work, right?
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on August 26, 2021, 03:52:46 pm
What reasons?

Good reasons.

What are those good reasons?
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: iguanaiguana on August 26, 2021, 03:53:33 pm
Let's all vote Swowl

no.

Ok but why Galz?
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: 2.71828..... on August 26, 2021, 03:53:41 pm
I don't think it's terrible to let e live and see if we can verify his hiding

How exactly would we verify that? With this claim, scum probably wouldn't try to shoot him, so he'll probably live (unless unlucky target). If a tracker or similar watches him, are they really going to claim D2 that yeah he hid where he said he did? That seems more likely to waste an investigative role than to actually be beneficial. Unless of course the plan is to let e live for several days and hope the tracker or whatever lives long enough to get other results before coming forward and confirming or rejecting this claim, but that doesn't seem like a good play either.

Yeah, there is no great way to confirm my role other than having an extra death and you get to see my flip.

It would have to be a vig shooting me while a tracker watched me with a watcher verifying I was in fact shot....

Just all sorts of not worth it.

Just a vig shot would work, right?

when you put it like that....yeah.  I suppose it does.

Plus, vigs don't shoot N1 if they are town anyway, might as well shoot me!
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Awaclus on August 26, 2021, 03:53:48 pm
What are those good reasons?

They are very helpful for scum to know.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: 2.71828..... on August 26, 2021, 03:54:07 pm
Let's all vote Swowl

no.

Ok but why Galz?

Galz is scummy where Swowl is townie.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: iguanaiguana on August 26, 2021, 03:56:17 pm
Laughing at the IC trying to rolefish
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: 2.71828..... on August 26, 2021, 03:56:25 pm
I think scum!Didds is more likely to forget Swowl was posted VLA (by both me and then himself), and the vote on Swowl, given their previous games together, feels like an intentionally aimed vote to show participation without actually engaging. It has a ďIíve got to make sure I vote Swowl D1 or heíll be suspicious of me for not going at himĒ type vibe, and I could see scum!Didds overlooking the VLA while making sure to get that vote in.

Swowl, can you confirm this is the case?

Ok I am home.
This first because it is at me directly.

Answer is no. Or I mean "no I cannot confirm I think this is what would happen". I get what Galz is saying and if it was like ANYONE other than WCD and myself, it would have merit... but Short answer no.. long answer below.

This is all generalization...
When we are skum together, we try to simulate our buddy buddy normal nature because obvious reasons.
We she is town and I am skum, I lose. I don't know how to play it.
When she is skum and I am town, I am like 50-50 either way. And the only reason I am 50-50 is if she actually makes a mistake. Once I cultivate a town read on her, I am pretty locked in.

When we are both town, we tend to ignore each other until one of us posts "something something... and because I town read WCD/Swowl". Then the other one normally reciprocates, unless a weird ass game where there is a skum read by that point... and then we are hard core buddy buddy until the end.

Its kind of like peacocks or whatever... walk around in circles for a while and then one of them shows all the plumage and then the other peacock either tries to kill it or chill with it. We normally chill.

Now this is my first post back, so I need to kind of read up on the general game state thus far but I will point out two things. One obvious, one not so much.

1) Obvious thing - WCD voted me. A weak vote so meh, but still. This part of the argument I get from Galz... Except different reasoning. Not so much weird because it has a vibe too it, because she would know that she doesn't need to simulate that vibe.... but weird because it breaks the peacock dance ritual.

2) Not so obvious thing - Galz has been in countless games with WCD and myself, so he would know that we generally ignore each other. So making the argument he did, for the REASON he stated... is weird.

To expand on my previous post, read Swowl here.  Zero in on point number 2
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on August 26, 2021, 03:57:33 pm
Laughing at the IC trying to rolefish

This game is pretty dumb when everyone has secret reasons to want and not want to vote people and you can't scumread it.

I'd rather make people slip up that it's due to their PR that they're doing things. Scum can't easily fake that without going hard into a fakeclaim.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Galzria on August 26, 2021, 03:58:54 pm
Can we go back and Exile scum!Didds?

Iíll Exile e as is one of just a few ways to verify his claim and itís actually better than exiling me given the options. However if itís a pure stalemate or we canít get to an actual better choice Iím still a better option than no-exile.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on August 26, 2021, 03:59:32 pm
Can we go back and Exile scum!Didds?

Iíll Exile e as is one of just a few ways to verify his claim and itís actually better than exiling me given the options. However if itís a pure stalemate or we canít get to an actual better choice Iím still a better option than no-exile.

Vote: Didds

e: L-2
Galzria: L-2
Didds: L-6

As of right now.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Galzria on August 26, 2021, 04:01:14 pm
vote: WCD
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: faust on August 26, 2021, 04:02:01 pm
@e: Do you die if you hide behind scum?

Sorry if this was answered somewhere.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Awaclus on August 26, 2021, 04:02:38 pm
I'm not around for deadline, btw.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: faust on August 26, 2021, 04:02:49 pm
Didds exile lame exile. Let's all go exile Galzria.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on August 26, 2021, 04:03:06 pm
I'm not around for deadline, btw.

When are you leaving?
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Awaclus on August 26, 2021, 04:03:47 pm
I'm not around for deadline, btw.

When are you leaving?

Well, I pretty much should have left already.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on August 26, 2021, 04:05:04 pm
Vote Count 1.MiX

Galzria (5): faust, 2.71828...., WestCoastDidds, EFHW, Awaclus
2.71828.... (4): Swowl, Glooble, mathdude, Dylan32
WestCoastDidds (2): MiX, Galzria

Swowl (1): iguanaiguana
iguanaiguana (1): pubby
Not voting (0):

7 to exile. 3 hours to deadline.

What's the plan?
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: faust on August 26, 2021, 04:05:37 pm
I'm off as well. Please do the right thing and exile Galz for me.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on August 26, 2021, 04:06:42 pm
Galzria, can you claim?
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Galzria on August 26, 2021, 04:07:51 pm
Galzria, can you claim?

I am the Tin Man.

Do you want me to claim my PR?
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on August 26, 2021, 04:08:11 pm
Galzria, can you claim?

I am the Tin Man.

Do you want me to claim my PR?

Most likely, yes.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Galzria on August 26, 2021, 04:11:53 pm
Galzria, can you claim?

I am the Tin Man.

Do you want me to claim my PR?

Most likely, yes.

I am Dorothyís protector by flavor provided.

I am a 2-shot Vig.

I donít shoot as Vig, so Iím essentially a VT, which is why my Exile is better than No Exile as it generates information at the very least while losing a PR that wonít be used.

That said, if I *did* shoot i couldíve helped resolv the e situation (if I understand correctly) if he didnít get exiled which is why I advocated going back to WCD here.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on August 26, 2021, 04:14:03 pm
Galzria, can you claim?

I am the Tin Man.

Do you want me to claim my PR?

Most likely, yes.

I am Dorothyís protector by flavor provided.

I am a 2-shot Vig.

I donít shoot as Vig, so Iím essentially a VT, which is why my Exile is better than No Exile as it generates information at the very least while losing a PR that wonít be used.

That said, if I *did* shoot i couldíve helped resolv the e situation (if I understand correctly) if he didnít get exiled which is why I advocated going back to WCD here.

What do you mean "I don't shoot as Vig"?
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Dylan32 on August 26, 2021, 04:14:21 pm
Let's all vote Swowl

I do not believe I have ever been looked at so much without literally a single reason ever being stated as to why I am skummy.
No defense on this one. Pure offense.
You are skummy for it, faust is skummy for it, and whoever the other person was (Dylan i think) is skummy for it.

Wasn't me. I might have included you in willing to exile territory, but that was more out of haven't thought you were particularly towny than actually scummy. Your post before the one I just quoted though mirrored some of my thoughts and actually makes me lean slightly town and remove you from my personal exile pool.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: 2.71828..... on August 26, 2021, 04:14:48 pm
yeah, totally down for Galz shooting me tonight.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Galzria on August 26, 2021, 04:15:02 pm
Galzria, can you claim?

I am the Tin Man.

Do you want me to claim my PR?

Most likely, yes.

I am Dorothyís protector by flavor provided.

I am a 2-shot Vig.

I donít shoot as Vig, so Iím essentially a VT, which is why my Exile is better than No Exile as it generates information at the very least while losing a PR that wonít be used.

That said, if I *did* shoot i couldíve helped resolv the e situation (if I understand correctly) if he didnít get exiled which is why I advocated going back to WCD here.

What do you mean "I don't shoot as Vig"?

I have a massively extensive history of arguing why Vigís should almost never shoot unless town has their back against a literal wall.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: 2.71828..... on August 26, 2021, 04:15:13 pm
unvote
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on August 26, 2021, 04:16:28 pm
Well that history makes that claim stupidly convenient.

All in favor of just exiling Galzria?

Galzria, if you live today, you have to shoot. And you should probably not shoot e. If you're already saying you're not going to do that, then we should just exile you as you won't be able to confirm your role.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: 2.71828..... on August 26, 2021, 04:17:13 pm
especially as a two shot vig, using one shot on me tonight is totally worth it.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Galzria on August 26, 2021, 04:17:41 pm
Well that history makes that claim stupidly convenient.

All in favor of just exiling Galzria?

Galzria, if you live today, you have to shoot. And you should probably not shoot e. If you're already saying you're not going to do that, then we should just exile you as you won't be able to confirm your role.

Itís only convenient now that I had to claim it publicly 🙄
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: 2.71828..... on August 26, 2021, 04:18:15 pm
I don't understand MiX's reasoning here
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on August 26, 2021, 04:18:54 pm
I don't understand MiX's reasoning here

If Galzria's scum, he doesn't have a 2-shot vig lol. So he should use the vig so we can confirm he has it.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Galzria on August 26, 2021, 04:19:22 pm
Well that history makes that claim stupidly convenient.

All in favor of just exiling Galzria?

Galzria, if you live today, you have to shoot. And you should probably not shoot e. If you're already saying you're not going to do that, then we should just exile you as you won't be able to confirm your role.

Itís only convenient now that I had to claim it publicly 🙄

And yes, I will shoot now that itís public - but there are many factors that can prevent my shot given my role is public knowledge to scum.

Honestly, best option is probably to Exile me.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on August 26, 2021, 04:20:00 pm
Well that history makes that claim stupidly convenient.

All in favor of just exiling Galzria?

Galzria, if you live today, you have to shoot. And you should probably not shoot e. If you're already saying you're not going to do that, then we should just exile you as you won't be able to confirm your role.

Itís only convenient now that I had to claim it publicly 🙄

And yes, I will shoot now that itís public - but there are many factors that can prevent my shot given my role is public knowledge to scum.

Honestly, best option is probably to Exile me.

Scum roleblocking you means they're not roleblocking someone else.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Galzria on August 26, 2021, 04:20:47 pm
Well that history makes that claim stupidly convenient.

All in favor of just exiling Galzria?

Galzria, if you live today, you have to shoot. And you should probably not shoot e. If you're already saying you're not going to do that, then we should just exile you as you won't be able to confirm your role.

Itís only convenient now that I had to claim it publicly 🙄

And yes, I will shoot now that itís public - but there are many factors that can prevent my shot given my role is public knowledge to scum.

Honestly, best option is probably to Exile me.

Scum roleblocking you means they're not roleblocking someone else.

Fair - but it does nothing to confirm my role to you and their other options are a complete guess in the dark.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Galzria on August 26, 2021, 04:22:20 pm
Well that history makes that claim stupidly convenient.

All in favor of just exiling Galzria?

Galzria, if you live today, you have to shoot. And you should probably not shoot e. If you're already saying you're not going to do that, then we should just exile you as you won't be able to confirm your role.

Itís only convenient now that I had to claim it publicly 🙄

And yes, I will shoot now that itís public - but there are many factors that can prevent my shot given my role is public knowledge to scum.

Honestly, best option is probably to Exile me.

Scum roleblocking you means they're not roleblocking someone else.

Fair - but it does nothing to confirm my role to you and their other options are a complete guess in the dark.

Also if I were scum I would do nothing and say I was blocked or Jailed or something - which I guess could get caught by a Watcher on me - but now weíre getting into powers on powers on powers.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: 2.71828..... on August 26, 2021, 04:22:59 pm
I don't understand MiX's reasoning here

If Galzria's scum, he doesn't have a 2-shot vig lol. So he should use the vig so we can confirm he has it.

I don't see how the second half follows the first statement.

If I am scum then I am not a hider, so I should hide to confirm I am a hider.  Except my role isn't really verifiable....except if a town vig shoots me.

If Galzria is scum, is directed to shoot me, "shoots me" and then claims that, he makes me out to be conf!town (of sorts), which is not what scum want to do.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Glooble on August 26, 2021, 04:23:17 pm
vote: Galz

I'd like to get through this day without ending up with a mass claim after all.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: 2.71828..... on August 26, 2021, 04:24:50 pm
vote: no exile

I think we have had a very productive D1, which starting D2 with investigations and galzria shooting me and me hiding could very easily end with multiple N1 deaths.

We have had good wagons, good discussions, and just the right amount of claiming.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on August 26, 2021, 04:27:07 pm
Unvote
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: 2.71828..... on August 26, 2021, 04:33:31 pm
I think a lot of time N1 actions are pretty much blind, and the best way for people to direct their actions is based on a flip.  I have historically been a huge advocate of D1 exiles, going so far as to hammer myself as town to ensure an exile went through on D1. (on a side note - town did win and I like to think my self-exile contributed to that)

That is not the situation here.  I think there is enough to go on between Galzria and myself, plus other wagons and opinions on Swowl, Didds, and others to give people enough to make informed N1 action choices.

That and the very high likelihood of a multiple-death night either N1 or sometime in the future
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: 2.71828..... on August 26, 2021, 04:42:35 pm
anyway, I am going to sleep now, hope to see you all on D2!
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Swowl on August 26, 2021, 04:42:43 pm
I think a lot of time N1 actions are pretty much blind, and the best way for people to direct their actions is based on a flip.  I have historically been a huge advocate of D1 exiles, going so far as to hammer myself as town to ensure an exile went through on D1. (on a side note - town did win and I like to think my self-exile contributed to that)

That is not the situation here.  I think there is enough to go on between Galzria and myself, plus other wagons and opinions on Swowl, Didds, and others to give people enough to make informed N1 action choices.

That and the very high likelihood of a multiple-death night either N1 or sometime in the future

Interesting Glooble is not on that list.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Dylan32 on August 26, 2021, 04:42:48 pm
I find it ironic that we've run up two wagons and gotten two claims of roles that either wouldn't hurt town too much to lose or would be convenient fake claims for scum, and it still seems like we are moving away from exiling either of them. Like I get it if we unfortunately hit a doc or a cop or something, but if we weren't going to exile either of e or galz after claiming these roles, were we ever going to exile anyone?
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: iguanaiguana on August 26, 2021, 04:44:11 pm
I sorta like the make Galz shoot e thing but I also sorta like the exile Galz. I'm back at work now, limited access and brain ability to sort out very hard choices, this sucks
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: mathdude on August 26, 2021, 04:44:36 pm
So first we had e claim a role that at the time may not have even been verifiable, depending on what roles are in play... possibly a fairly safe false claim?
Then Galz claims a role that based on meta is somewhat useles since he doesn't want to use it.

Call me skeptical, but both seem easy enough to make up. Galz's is definitely more risky to fake claim, both the flavour name and the role, at a risk of being counter-claimed (unless it was a mod-provided safe claim).

PPE4
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Swowl on August 26, 2021, 04:46:18 pm
wait E! come back what happens if you hide behind skum????
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: mathdude on August 26, 2021, 04:48:34 pm
I find it ironic that we've run up two wagons and gotten two claims of roles that either wouldn't hurt town too much to lose or would be convenient fake claims for scum, and it still seems like we are moving away from exiling either of them. Like I get it if we unfortunately hit a doc or a cop or something, but if we weren't going to exile either of e or galz after claiming these roles, were we ever going to exile anyone?

Exactly!

Also, I stil want to see an exile happen. I'd rather it is e as it seems like a very low risk, potential fake claim. But I'd jump to Galz, Didds, or even Swowl to get one.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on August 26, 2021, 04:48:53 pm
I find it ironic that we've run up two wagons and gotten two claims of roles that either wouldn't hurt town too much to lose or would be convenient fake claims for scum, and it still seems like we are moving away from exiling either of them. Like I get it if we unfortunately hit a doc or a cop or something, but if we weren't going to exile either of e or galz after claiming these roles, were we ever going to exile anyone?

Exactly!

Also, I stil want to see an exile happen. I'd rather it is e as it seems like a very low risk, potential fake claim. But I'd jump to Galz, Didds, or even Swowl to get one.

Vote Galz then, he should be at L-2
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Galzria on August 26, 2021, 04:49:32 pm
I find it ironic that we've run up two wagons and gotten two claims of roles that either wouldn't hurt town too much to lose or would be convenient fake claims for scum, and it still seems like we are moving away from exiling either of them. Like I get it if we unfortunately hit a doc or a cop or something, but if we weren't going to exile either of e or galz after claiming these roles, were we ever going to exile anyone?

Exactly!

Also, I stil want to see an exile happen. I'd rather it is e as it seems like a very low risk, potential fake claim. But I'd jump to Galz, Didds, or even Swowl to get one.

Would you go to Glooble?
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Galzria on August 26, 2021, 04:49:43 pm
unvote
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Dylan32 on August 26, 2021, 04:50:06 pm
I find it ironic that we've run up two wagons and gotten two claims of roles that either wouldn't hurt town too much to lose or would be convenient fake claims for scum, and it still seems like we are moving away from exiling either of them. Like I get it if we unfortunately hit a doc or a cop or something, but if we weren't going to exile either of e or galz after claiming these roles, were we ever going to exile anyone?

Exactly!

Also, I stil want to see an exile happen. I'd rather it is e as it seems like a very low risk, potential fake claim. But I'd jump to Galz, Didds, or even Swowl to get one.

Vote Galz then, he should be at L-2

Of the two, I think I would rather lose a hider than a town vig who is known for exercising restraint with the role, so why not e?
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Galzria on August 26, 2021, 04:50:27 pm
I find it ironic that we've run up two wagons and gotten two claims of roles that either wouldn't hurt town too much to lose or would be convenient fake claims for scum, and it still seems like we are moving away from exiling either of them. Like I get it if we unfortunately hit a doc or a cop or something, but if we weren't going to exile either of e or galz after claiming these roles, were we ever going to exile anyone?

Exactly!

Also, I stil want to see an exile happen. I'd rather it is e as it seems like a very low risk, potential fake claim. But I'd jump to Galz, Didds, or even Swowl to get one.

Vote Galz then, he should be at L-2

I think Iím L-1
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on August 26, 2021, 04:51:07 pm
I find it ironic that we've run up two wagons and gotten two claims of roles that either wouldn't hurt town too much to lose or would be convenient fake claims for scum, and it still seems like we are moving away from exiling either of them. Like I get it if we unfortunately hit a doc or a cop or something, but if we weren't going to exile either of e or galz after claiming these roles, were we ever going to exile anyone?

Exactly!

Also, I stil want to see an exile happen. I'd rather it is e as it seems like a very low risk, potential fake claim. But I'd jump to Galz, Didds, or even Swowl to get one.

Vote Galz then, he should be at L-2

I think Iím L-1

I've been keeping track of votes and I think you're at L-2.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Galzria on August 26, 2021, 04:51:19 pm
I find it ironic that we've run up two wagons and gotten two claims of roles that either wouldn't hurt town too much to lose or would be convenient fake claims for scum, and it still seems like we are moving away from exiling either of them. Like I get it if we unfortunately hit a doc or a cop or something, but if we weren't going to exile either of e or galz after claiming these roles, were we ever going to exile anyone?

Exactly!

Also, I stil want to see an exile happen. I'd rather it is e as it seems like a very low risk, potential fake claim. But I'd jump to Galz, Didds, or even Swowl to get one.

Vote Galz then, he should be at L-2

I think Iím L-1

Oh, nevermind. I think youíre right. eís vote for NE is the one I missed.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Dylan32 on August 26, 2021, 04:51:48 pm
I find it ironic that we've run up two wagons and gotten two claims of roles that either wouldn't hurt town too much to lose or would be convenient fake claims for scum, and it still seems like we are moving away from exiling either of them. Like I get it if we unfortunately hit a doc or a cop or something, but if we weren't going to exile either of e or galz after claiming these roles, were we ever going to exile anyone?

Exactly!

Also, I stil want to see an exile happen. I'd rather it is e as it seems like a very low risk, potential fake claim. But I'd jump to Galz, Didds, or even Swowl to get one.

Would you go to Glooble?

How many more people do you want to claim today?

Ironically after asking that question, I would actually be willing to go back to Glooble.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Swowl on August 26, 2021, 04:51:51 pm
So first we had e claim a role that at the time may not have even been verifiable, depending on what roles are in play... possibly a fairly safe false claim?
Then Galz claims a role that based on meta is somewhat useles since he doesn't want to use it.

Call me skeptical, but both seem easy enough to make up. Galz's is definitely more risky to fake claim, both the flavour name and the role, at a risk of being counter-claimed (unless it was a mod-provided safe claim).

PPE4

Can't believe that no one has pointed this out

The fact that he has a history (which I can verify) of being extremely effing vocal about vig being a anti town utility role literally means nothing once he claimed the role. On day 1 to be exact. If he tried to claim it on day 3/4/5... ok yeah THAT is convenient this means nothing.

His history does not work for him here, now that it is made public, it works against him. We could dictate that he does not shoot at all. Like Ever. That handcuffs him if he is skum, he literally can never take a night action until he is 100% sure no one can track watch whatever it may be.

PPE a few
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on August 26, 2021, 04:52:58 pm
So first we had e claim a role that at the time may not have even been verifiable, depending on what roles are in play... possibly a fairly safe false claim?
Then Galz claims a role that based on meta is somewhat useles since he doesn't want to use it.

Call me skeptical, but both seem easy enough to make up. Galz's is definitely more risky to fake claim, both the flavour name and the role, at a risk of being counter-claimed (unless it was a mod-provided safe claim).

PPE4

Can't believe that no one has pointed this out

The fact that he has a history (which I can verify) of being extremely effing vocal about vig being a anti town utility role literally means nothing once he claimed the role. On day 1 to be exact. If he tried to claim it on day 3/4/5... ok yeah THAT is convenient this means nothing.

His history does not work for him here, now that it is made public, it works against him. We could dictate that he does not shoot at all. Like Ever. That handcuffs him if he is skum, he literally can never take a night action until he is 100% sure no one can track watch whatever it may be.

PPE a few

Trackers kill fakeclaiming vigs even if they "shoot" because there's no way scum!Galz is a 2-shot vig.

Unless there is. Lol.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: mathdude on August 26, 2021, 04:53:16 pm
I find it ironic that we've run up two wagons and gotten two claims of roles that either wouldn't hurt town too much to lose or would be convenient fake claims for scum, and it still seems like we are moving away from exiling either of them. Like I get it if we unfortunately hit a doc or a cop or something, but if we weren't going to exile either of e or galz after claiming these roles, were we ever going to exile anyone?

Exactly!

Also, I stil want to see an exile happen. I'd rather it is e as it seems like a very low risk, potential fake claim. But I'd jump to Galz, Didds, or even Swowl to get one.

Vote Galz then, he should be at L-2

Of the two, I think I would rather lose a hider than a town vig who is known for exercising restraint with the role, so why not e?

Same.
 
I find it ironic that we've run up two wagons and gotten two claims of roles that either wouldn't hurt town too much to lose or would be convenient fake claims for scum, and it still seems like we are moving away from exiling either of them. Like I get it if we unfortunately hit a doc or a cop or something, but if we weren't going to exile either of e or galz after claiming these roles, were we ever going to exile anyone?

Exactly!

Also, I stil want to see an exile happen. I'd rather it is e as it seems like a very low risk, potential fake claim. But I'd jump to Galz, Didds, or even Swowl to get one.

Would you go to Glooble?

I don't see it swinging there at this point. But if it starts, I would do a quick reread and consider it
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on August 26, 2021, 04:54:05 pm
Math, you vote Galz instead of e if you want an exile because e's at L-4 and Galz is at L-2. Also, you're on e already.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Galzria on August 26, 2021, 04:54:06 pm
I find it ironic that we've run up two wagons and gotten two claims of roles that either wouldn't hurt town too much to lose or would be convenient fake claims for scum, and it still seems like we are moving away from exiling either of them. Like I get it if we unfortunately hit a doc or a cop or something, but if we weren't going to exile either of e or galz after claiming these roles, were we ever going to exile anyone?

Exactly!

Also, I stil want to see an exile happen. I'd rather it is e as it seems like a very low risk, potential fake claim. But I'd jump to Galz, Didds, or even Swowl to get one.

Would you go to Glooble?

How many more people do you want to claim today?

Ironically after asking that question, I would actually be willing to go back to Glooble.

You put Swowl & Didds on your list. Neither has claimed. I simply wondered if Glooble was also on that list. I donít want them all to claim. I was just curious why a leading wagon earlier didnít get your attention now.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Galzria on August 26, 2021, 04:55:17 pm
I find it ironic that we've run up two wagons and gotten two claims of roles that either wouldn't hurt town too much to lose or would be convenient fake claims for scum, and it still seems like we are moving away from exiling either of them. Like I get it if we unfortunately hit a doc or a cop or something, but if we weren't going to exile either of e or galz after claiming these roles, were we ever going to exile anyone?

Exactly!

Also, I stil want to see an exile happen. I'd rather it is e as it seems like a very low risk, potential fake claim. But I'd jump to Galz, Didds, or even Swowl to get one.

Would you go to Glooble?

How many more people do you want to claim today?

Ironically after asking that question, I would actually be willing to go back to Glooble.

You put Swowl & Didds on your list. Neither has claimed. I simply wondered if Glooble was also on that list. I donít want them all to claim. I was just curious why a leading wagon earlier didnít get your attention now.

Sorry, thought it was Math answering my question to Math. Missed that youíre not math.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Dylan32 on August 26, 2021, 04:57:03 pm
I find it ironic that we've run up two wagons and gotten two claims of roles that either wouldn't hurt town too much to lose or would be convenient fake claims for scum, and it still seems like we are moving away from exiling either of them. Like I get it if we unfortunately hit a doc or a cop or something, but if we weren't going to exile either of e or galz after claiming these roles, were we ever going to exile anyone?

Exactly!

Also, I stil want to see an exile happen. I'd rather it is e as it seems like a very low risk, potential fake claim. But I'd jump to Galz, Didds, or even Swowl to get one.

Would you go to Glooble?

How many more people do you want to claim today?

Ironically after asking that question, I would actually be willing to go back to Glooble.

You put Swowl & Didds on your list. Neither has claimed. I simply wondered if Glooble was also on that list. I donít want them all to claim. I was just curious why a leading wagon earlier didnít get your attention now.

Sorry, thought it was Math answering my question to Math. Missed that youíre not math.

I am not, but I was the other person quoted by Math, so the question to Math related to my (not!Math's) converstion with Math.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Galzria on August 26, 2021, 04:57:09 pm
I find it ironic that we've run up two wagons and gotten two claims of roles that either wouldn't hurt town too much to lose or would be convenient fake claims for scum, and it still seems like we are moving away from exiling either of them. Like I get it if we unfortunately hit a doc or a cop or something, but if we weren't going to exile either of e or galz after claiming these roles, were we ever going to exile anyone?

Exactly!

Also, I stil want to see an exile happen. I'd rather it is e as it seems like a very low risk, potential fake claim. But I'd jump to Galz, Didds, or even Swowl to get one.

Vote Galz then, he should be at L-2

Of the two, I think I would rather lose a hider than a town vig who is known for exercising restraint with the role, so why not e?

Same.
 
I find it ironic that we've run up two wagons and gotten two claims of roles that either wouldn't hurt town too much to lose or would be convenient fake claims for scum, and it still seems like we are moving away from exiling either of them. Like I get it if we unfortunately hit a doc or a cop or something, but if we weren't going to exile either of e or galz after claiming these roles, were we ever going to exile anyone?

Exactly!

Also, I stil want to see an exile happen. I'd rather it is e as it seems like a very low risk, potential fake claim. But I'd jump to Galz, Didds, or even Swowl to get one.

Would you go to Glooble?

I don't see it swinging there at this point. But if it starts, I would do a quick reread and consider it

So to put it to the person I intended:

Math - Iím not asking for anybody additional to claim. But why do you list Swowl (who never had a wagon), WCD, e & me as options, but leave off Glooble completely (who did have a substantial wagon)?
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Swowl on August 26, 2021, 04:57:34 pm
So first we had e claim a role that at the time may not have even been verifiable, depending on what roles are in play... possibly a fairly safe false claim?
Then Galz claims a role that based on meta is somewhat useles since he doesn't want to use it.

Call me skeptical, but both seem easy enough to make up. Galz's is definitely more risky to fake claim, both the flavour name and the role, at a risk of being counter-claimed (unless it was a mod-provided safe claim).

PPE4

Can't believe that no one has pointed this out

The fact that he has a history (which I can verify) of being extremely effing vocal about vig being a anti town utility role literally means nothing once he claimed the role. On day 1 to be exact. If he tried to claim it on day 3/4/5... ok yeah THAT is convenient this means nothing.

His history does not work for him here, now that it is made public, it works against him. We could dictate that he does not shoot at all. Like Ever. That handcuffs him if he is skum, he literally can never take a night action until he is 100% sure no one can track watch whatever it may be.

PPE a few

Trackers kill fakeclaiming vigs even if they "shoot" because there's no way scum!Galz is a 2-shot vig.

Unless there is. Lol.

my point was more "if galz is skum he has some other ability most likely" - ie. not 2 shot vig
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Galzria on August 26, 2021, 04:59:12 pm
I find it ironic that we've run up two wagons and gotten two claims of roles that either wouldn't hurt town too much to lose or would be convenient fake claims for scum, and it still seems like we are moving away from exiling either of them. Like I get it if we unfortunately hit a doc or a cop or something, but if we weren't going to exile either of e or galz after claiming these roles, were we ever going to exile anyone?

Exactly!

Also, I stil want to see an exile happen. I'd rather it is e as it seems like a very low risk, potential fake claim. But I'd jump to Galz, Didds, or even Swowl to get one.

Would you go to Glooble?

How many more people do you want to claim today?

Ironically after asking that question, I would actually be willing to go back to Glooble.

You put Swowl & Didds on your list. Neither has claimed. I simply wondered if Glooble was also on that list. I donít want them all to claim. I was just curious why a leading wagon earlier didnít get your attention now.

Sorry, thought it was Math answering my question to Math. Missed that youíre not math.

I am not, but I was the other person quoted by Math, so the question to Math related to my (not!Math's) converstion with Math.

Didnít mean that to come off harshly. I just legitimately didnít realize that you werenít the person I asked the question of when you answered. Your answer is just as valuable overall - just not the person I was looking for to answer.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Swowl on August 26, 2021, 04:59:41 pm
Singular though - E! could be some form of bullet proof. if Galz is telling the truth, that would even make a skum BP almost likely.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: mathdude on August 26, 2021, 05:00:31 pm
Math, you vote Galz instead of e if you want an exile because e's at L-4 and Galz is at L-2. Also, you're on e already.

I want to see scum exiled. And I think e has a higher chance of being scum.

As a secondary, an actual exile and flip is better for readers than a NE, imo.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: iguanaiguana on August 26, 2021, 05:00:46 pm
Vote: Galzria
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: iguanaiguana on August 26, 2021, 05:01:20 pm
L-1 scummy claim nexile bad
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Galzria on August 26, 2021, 05:01:56 pm
vote: Glooble
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Swowl on August 26, 2021, 05:03:11 pm
I don't get how the claim is skummy. In the spot he was in I think skum claims something hoping to get a CC. Vig never CCs... they just shoot him if he isn't lynched.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Dylan32 on August 26, 2021, 05:03:16 pm
The pro-town benefit of a hider is that the person can survive getting shot. Once it is known, it's literally only potentially bad for town to use it because of the risk of the double death since scum can just avoid wasting the shot on him. There is no reason not to go through with that exile unless you are completely convinced e is town beyond anyone else.

ppe 7
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Swowl on August 26, 2021, 05:03:22 pm
*exiled. sorry
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Dylan32 on August 26, 2021, 05:04:42 pm
I don't get how the claim is skummy. In the spot he was in I think skum claims something hoping to get a CC. Vig never CCs... they just shoot him if he isn't lynched.

I mean, if there isn't another vig in the game, it gives scum cover for actually killing. You yourself did this last game...
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: mathdude on August 26, 2021, 05:05:22 pm
I find it ironic that we've run up two wagons and gotten two claims of roles that either wouldn't hurt town too much to lose or would be convenient fake claims for scum, and it still seems like we are moving away from exiling either of them. Like I get it if we unfortunately hit a doc or a cop or something, but if we weren't going to exile either of e or galz after claiming these roles, were we ever going to exile anyone?

Exactly!

Also, I stil want to see an exile happen. I'd rather it is e as it seems like a very low risk, potential fake claim. But I'd jump to Galz, Didds, or even Swowl to get one.

Vote Galz then, he should be at L-2

Of the two, I think I would rather lose a hider than a town vig who is known for exercising restraint with the role, so why not e?

Same.
 
I find it ironic that we've run up two wagons and gotten two claims of roles that either wouldn't hurt town too much to lose or would be convenient fake claims for scum, and it still seems like we are moving away from exiling either of them. Like I get it if we unfortunately hit a doc or a cop or something, but if we weren't going to exile either of e or galz after claiming these roles, were we ever going to exile anyone?

Exactly!

Also, I stil want to see an exile happen. I'd rather it is e as it seems like a very low risk, potential fake claim. But I'd jump to Galz, Didds, or even Swowl to get one.

Would you go to Glooble?

I don't see it swinging there at this point. But if it starts, I would do a quick reread and consider it

So to put it to the person I intended:

Math - Iím not asking for anybody additional to claim. But why do you list Swowl (who never had a wagon), WCD, e & me as options, but leave off Glooble completely (who did have a substantial wagon)?

Fair enough. He didn't ring bells for me like others did. So is want to skim again. But yes.

Also mobile posting, on the run, with almost dead battery. Going to plug in... back soon
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Swowl on August 26, 2021, 05:07:43 pm
I don't get how the claim is skummy. In the spot he was in I think skum claims something hoping to get a CC. Vig never CCs... they just shoot him if he isn't lynched.

I mean, if there isn't another vig in the game, it gives scum cover for actually killing. You yourself did this last game...

Completely different. I was playing off mix info post of a vig existing combined with the fact that yellow was gone. Figured yellow had the shot. Way safer claim.

Galz is day 1. High value claim. Except he picks the only one that would not CC him in this spot.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Swowl on August 26, 2021, 05:09:15 pm
I don't get how the claim is skummy. In the spot he was in I think skum claims something hoping to get a CC. Vig never CCs... they just shoot him if he isn't lynched.

I mean, if there isn't another vig in the game, it gives scum cover for actually killing. You yourself did this last game...

Completely different. I was playing off mix info post of a vig existing combined with the fact that yellow was gone. Figured yellow had the shot. Way safer claim.

Galz is day 1. High value claim. Except he picks the only one that would not CC him in this spot.

poorly worded. to elaborate I am saying that I think skum!anyone in that spot tries to draw a CC out of some high value PR like doctor
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on August 26, 2021, 05:09:48 pm
Vote: No exile
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on August 26, 2021, 05:10:20 pm
Vote Count 1.?.MiX

Galzria (6): faust, WestCoastDidds, EFHW, Awaclus, Glooble, iguanaiguana
2.71828.... (3): Swowl, mathdude, Dylan32
iguanaiguana (1): pubby
Glooble (1): Galzria

No exile (2): 2.71828...., MiX
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: mathdude on August 26, 2021, 05:30:42 pm
Back, but on the road again with only 15% battery
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: WestCoastDidds on August 26, 2021, 05:33:29 pm
Unvote
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: WestCoastDidds on August 26, 2021, 05:34:08 pm
Mix, youíd rather see no exile than Galz? You sure?
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on August 26, 2021, 05:34:45 pm
Mix, youíd rather see no exile than Galz? You sure?

No.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on August 26, 2021, 05:34:58 pm
Mix, youíd rather see no exile than Galz? You sure?

No.

Er, that was to the second question.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Dylan32 on August 26, 2021, 05:40:27 pm
I don't get how the claim is skummy. In the spot he was in I think skum claims something hoping to get a CC. Vig never CCs... they just shoot him if he isn't lynched.

I mean, if there isn't another vig in the game, it gives scum cover for actually killing. You yourself did this last game...

Completely different. I was playing off mix info post of a vig existing combined with the fact that yellow was gone. Figured yellow had the shot. Way safer claim.

Galz is day 1. High value claim. Except he picks the only one that would not CC him in this spot.

poorly worded. to elaborate I am saying that I think skum!anyone in that spot tries to draw a CC out of some high value PR like doctor

I get your point, it probably was way safer for you in that game, but it's not a 100% anyone as scum would go for CC. Highly likely, ok, probably; but certain players could go for the more high risk high reward play of getting the towncred after living while literally being clear to do the kills for their team.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Dylan32 on August 26, 2021, 05:41:16 pm
Not necessarily intent right now, but I'm willing to hammer galz if I am not going to convince anyone to come back onto the e wagon.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Galzria on August 26, 2021, 05:44:56 pm
Not necessarily intent right now, but I'm willing to hammer galz if I am not going to convince anyone to come back onto the e wagon.

I think Glooble is more informative than e at this point based off both recent and prior interactions.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: WestCoastDidds on August 26, 2021, 05:46:46 pm
Mix, youíd rather see no exile than Galz? You sure?

No.

Er, that was to the second question.

Gotcha! Iím following you. Iím okay with exiling Galz, but I donít hate no exile. But if you think itís better exile him, Iíll move my vote back there.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: WestCoastDidds on August 26, 2021, 06:06:10 pm
Didds Count

Galzria (5): faust, EFHW, Awaclus, Glooble, iguanaiguana
2.71828.... (3): Swowl, mathdude, Dylan32
iguanaiguana (1): pubby
Glooble (1): Galzria

No exile (2): 2.71828...., MiX, WCD

50 minutes
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Galzria on August 26, 2021, 06:09:00 pm
Ho hum.

Vote: e

You should exile one of us today over no exile. I absolutely despise no exile D1ís.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on August 26, 2021, 06:12:01 pm
Do we have the people for an e exile?
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Swowl on August 26, 2021, 06:18:03 pm
Do we have the people for an e exile?

Depends on if anyone else is around. I think we can get L1 based on current posters.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Glooble on August 26, 2021, 06:23:50 pm
vote: e
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on August 26, 2021, 06:24:14 pm
vote: e

Hi Glooble!
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: WestCoastDidds on August 26, 2021, 06:27:48 pm
Didds Count

Galzria (4): faust, EFHW, Awaclus, iguanaiguana
2.71828.... (5): Swowl, mathdude, Dylan32, Galz, Glooble
iguanaiguana (1): pubby


No exile/not voting  (3): 2.71828...., MiX, WCD

30 minutes till deadline
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: WestCoastDidds on August 26, 2021, 06:29:21 pm
I just donít think e is scum so Iím having issues with voting.

Misexile is better than nonexile? I hate this!
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: iguanaiguana on August 26, 2021, 06:31:20 pm
Vote: e

Lolol come-on guys :(:(
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on August 26, 2021, 06:31:27 pm
I think they both have to be town.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Galzria on August 26, 2021, 06:32:43 pm
I just donít think e is scum so Iím having issues with voting.

Misexile is better than nonexile? I hate this!

You donít, or shouldnít, know that either of us is a misexile. Which is why yes, misexile IS better than No Exile - because it makes information public. It turns a player whom others have stated reads on into an IC. Added benefit from town!you perspective, either e or I could flip scum.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: iguanaiguana on August 26, 2021, 06:33:09 pm
I think they both have to be town.

If we're talking about stating opinion as fact let's all look at this guy
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on August 26, 2021, 06:33:31 pm
I think they both have to be town.

If we're talking about stating opinion as fact let's all look at this guy

Yes, I'm the person everyone's making fun of with that statement.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on August 26, 2021, 06:34:00 pm
Hello, I'm MiX, nice to meet you iguanaiguana.

Why did you vote e?
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: iguanaiguana on August 26, 2021, 06:34:09 pm
I just donít think e is scum so Iím having issues with voting.

Misexile is better than nonexile? I hate this!

We had the votes for Galz a second ago until you and mix backed off
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on August 26, 2021, 06:34:31 pm
I just donít think e is scum so Iím having issues with voting.

Misexile is better than nonexile? I hate this!

We had the votes for Galz a second ago until you and mix backed off

And Glooble. And you. We still have them.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: iguanaiguana on August 26, 2021, 06:34:55 pm
Hello, I'm MiX, nice to meet you iguanaiguana.

Why did you vote e?

Get a flip, hope for scum. After the claims I prefer Galz but I don't want nexile
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Swowl on August 26, 2021, 06:35:19 pm
I think they both have to be town.

what is it you wanna do then?
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: WestCoastDidds on August 26, 2021, 06:35:45 pm
I think they both have to be town.

If we're talking about stating opinion as fact let's all look at this guy

LOL. Iguana, meet MiX. Heís awesome.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Galzria on August 26, 2021, 06:35:56 pm
I think they both have to be town.

If we're talking about stating opinion as fact let's all look at this guy

Yes, I'm the person everyone's making fun of with that statement.

To be fair (que Letterkenny mimicry), thatís essentially where MIC came fromÖ which is funny in context of this game.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on August 26, 2021, 06:36:45 pm
I think they both have to be town.

what is it you wanna do then?

I'm not sure. Probably nothing.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Galzria on August 26, 2021, 06:36:46 pm
I just donít think e is scum so Iím having issues with voting.

Misexile is better than nonexile? I hate this!

We had the votes for Galz a second ago until you and mix backed off

And Glooble. And you. We still have them.

Would Exile both over e.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on August 26, 2021, 06:37:21 pm
To be fair (que Letterkenny mimicry), thatís essentially where MIC came fromÖ which is funny in context of this game.

Will it till you make it baby.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on August 26, 2021, 06:38:36 pm
I just donít think e is scum so Iím having issues with voting.

Misexile is better than nonexile? I hate this!

We had the votes for Galz a second ago until you and mix backed off

And Glooble. And you. We still have them.

Would Exile both over e.

Lol that's not what I meant.

The only way we exile scum here is if everyone online is town. Excluding Galzria. Either that or I need to put my foot down and force an exile, which I don't think is the right play here.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Swowl on August 26, 2021, 06:40:15 pm
I believe L1 now btw.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on August 26, 2021, 06:40:47 pm
Galzria (3): faust, EFHW, Awaclus
2.71828.... (6): Swowl, mathdude, Dylan32, Galzria, Glooble, iguanaiguana
iguanaiguana (1): pubby

No exile (2): 2.71828...., MiX
Not voting (1): Didds

I think.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on August 26, 2021, 06:42:32 pm
Who's online?

Didds, me, Galzria, Glooble, iguana, Swowl

We can't make any other wagon I suppose.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: WestCoastDidds on August 26, 2021, 06:43:32 pm
I will go back to Galz, if you want
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Galzria on August 26, 2021, 06:44:02 pm
Math, maybe - but I think youíre likely correct with faust, Awaclus, pubby, EFHW and e not being here.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: WestCoastDidds on August 26, 2021, 06:45:35 pm
I know 100% that if he is a vig and shoots me, we will wish he had exiled him.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: WestCoastDidds on August 26, 2021, 06:46:05 pm
But that is about his wrongness, not his scumminess
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Galzria on August 26, 2021, 06:48:27 pm
I know 100% that if he is a vig and shoots me, we will wish he had exiled him.

This statement is true regardless of your alignment.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: WestCoastDidds on August 26, 2021, 06:49:48 pm
Vote: Galz

I have to go pick up my cat at the vet. Your call MiX
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on August 26, 2021, 06:50:42 pm
We should exile.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Swowl on August 26, 2021, 06:51:13 pm
I know 100% that if he is a vig and shoots me, we will wish he had exiled him.

This statement is true regardless of your alignment.

I mean if you are a town vig and wcd is skum and you shoot wcd... I mean... I would be happy.
I am not advocating that plan. Just not following the logic.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on August 26, 2021, 06:52:35 pm
I'm mostly going off e's case and read of Galzria here. If we kill neither, it will simply throw this away. If we flip one, the other should be much easier to read.

We should probably make a plan for who Galz shoots if e's exiled. I don't have one yet. I think Galz has to shoot. That would be the most pro-town thing to do if he's town. But I'm not sure.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on August 26, 2021, 06:53:28 pm
I'm the only person here that's left to vote e, so.

Is everyone here in favor of an e exile?
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Swowl on August 26, 2021, 06:54:54 pm
I am in favor of E! vs all the other potential options.

Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: iguanaiguana on August 26, 2021, 06:55:09 pm
I'm the only person here that's left to vote e, so.

Is everyone here in favor of an e exile?

You can assume at least the ones voting e are!
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Galzria on August 26, 2021, 06:55:30 pm
I know 100% that if he is a vig and shoots me, we will wish he had exiled him.

This statement is true regardless of your alignment.

I mean if you are a town vig and wcd is skum and you shoot wcd... I mean... I would be happy.
I am not advocating that plan. Just not following the logic.

Her statement is a vague ďweĒ.

If I shoot her at night, regardless of alignment, the ďweĒ of her grouping will have wished they exiled me.

If sheís town, then sheís saying as any other town would say: Itís better to Exile Galz and not let him shoot me because Iím town and thatís bad for town.

If sheís scum, then sheís saying as any other scum would say: Itís better to Exile Galz and not let him shoot me because Iím scum and thatís bad for scum.

She can make that exact same statement as either alignment and itís 100% true for her and her ďweĒ.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on August 26, 2021, 06:56:16 pm
Vote: e

Good night everyone!
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Swowl on August 26, 2021, 06:56:35 pm
and idk about the plan. I mean to say I am down with a plan, I just don't know how we plan it out publicly.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on August 26, 2021, 06:56:47 pm
Things to note:

- faust and Awaclus look aligned. Watch out.
- Probably make Glooble claim what made them vote pubby D2.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: WestCoastDidds on August 26, 2021, 06:57:18 pm
Galz should not shoot me. It would be bad for town. Make it so, MiX
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on August 26, 2021, 06:57:31 pm
- If this is a town flip, look at Didds. And Galzria of course.
- Galzria should not shoot.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on August 26, 2021, 06:58:49 pm
- Galzria should not shoot.

Well, I don't actually want to dictate this, I would like for Galzria to shoot only if he's sure. I don't want to policy his shot from beyond the grave, if I happen to die tonight.

Just, you should be very suspicious of Galzria if he shoots town.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Swowl on August 26, 2021, 06:58:57 pm
galz should not shoot if town flip or galz should not shoot at all?
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: WestCoastDidds on August 26, 2021, 06:59:41 pm
I will claim tomorrow, if need be. He should not shoot me, and Iím the one heís sure about.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on August 26, 2021, 07:00:23 pm
galz should not shoot if town flip or galz should not shoot at all?

If town flip. If scum flip who cares.

I will claim tomorrow, if need be. He should not shoot me, and Iím the one heís sure about.

If he shoots you, that's for town to figure out the consequences of his actions later.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: jotheonah on August 26, 2021, 07:00:31 pm
Thread Locked
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: jotheonah on August 26, 2021, 07:35:34 pm
 In the woods, a little further down the yellow brick road, a lion is cowering.

There's nothing unusual about this, he's generally afraid of everything. But in this particular case, he has something to be afraid of.

Because the Munchkins have discovered paw pads leading up to the crashed house, and they've decided to go Lion hunting.

"Are you sure this is him?" says Glinda.

"It's the only thing that makes sense!" the Mayor says.

"Aw shucks!" says the Lion. "Those are my tracks, but I weren't no witch! I just came to the village the other night to hide from some very tough-looking trees. I wasn't even here when the house fell!"

But the Munchkins are unconvinced. At their behest, Glinda casts a spell, trapping the Lion in a tiny pink bubble and casting him out of Oz for good.


2.71828.... has been exiled. He was the Cowardly Lion, a hider aligned with the good people of Oz.

Vote Count 1.6

2.71828.... (7): Swowl, , mathdude, Dylan32, Galzria, Glooble,  iguanaiguana, MiX
Galzria (4): faust, EFHW, Awaclus, WestCoastDidds
iguanaiguana (1): pubby

No exile (1): 2.71828....

Not voting (0)

With 13 alive, it took 7 to exile. Night 1 begins now and ends in 48 hours. That's 7:35 pm forum time on Saturday.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: jotheonah on August 26, 2021, 07:38:55 pm
To clarify, Night Actions are due at 7:35 Saturday. The thread will open as soon as I've had time to process them after that. Please submit night actions in your QTs or faction QTs as appropriate.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: jotheonah on August 28, 2021, 03:06:48 pm
You have 4 hours and 20 minutes to submit night actions.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: jotheonah on August 28, 2021, 07:14:30 pm
Wonít have a chance to open this until much later tonight. Sorry.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: jotheonah on August 28, 2021, 09:59:08 pm


Morning breaks in the land of Oz. Dorothy and the Scarecrow are still trotting down the yellow brick road. The Munchkins have wrongly exiled the Cowardly Lion. But it's a new day and there's still witches to find.

Unfortunately, all is not well in the Emerald City. The Great and Powerful Wizard of Oz receives a distressing report: The Doorman of Oz, beloved moustachio'd man that he is, was found dead.

Oz immediately sends for Glinda. Something must be done.


Awaclus has been killed in the night. He was the Doorman of Oz, a jailkeeper aligned with the good people of Oz.

With 11 alive, it takes 6 to exile. Day 2 begins now and ends Thursday, September 2 at 10:00 pm forum time.

Thread Unlocked
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: pubby on August 28, 2021, 10:23:52 pm
Scum team is Glooble, Iguana, Didds. Didds is the most obvious one.

There was some panic in the scum team early on with wagons around Glooble and Didds. They rallied to save each other, then hopped on the first alternative wagons. This is why all three voted late.

Vote: Didds

I doubt I'll be active much tomorrow BTW.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: EFHW on August 28, 2021, 10:34:17 pm
Can you point to the posts that seemed either panicked or rallying?
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Galzria on August 28, 2021, 10:38:02 pm
MiX, if (and when) you would like me to claim my action, let me know.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Swowl on August 28, 2021, 10:39:07 pm
Scum team is Glooble, Iguana, Didds. Didds is the most obvious one.

There was some panic in the scum team early on with wagons around Glooble and Didds. They rallied to save each other, then hopped on the first alternative wagons. This is why all three voted late.

Vote: Didds

I doubt I'll be active much tomorrow BTW.
Is this to say that you think WCD is skum and Glooble is town. Or do you think they are both skum? Or what?

PPe - also what efoo said.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: iguanaiguana on August 28, 2021, 10:44:01 pm
Scum team is Glooble, Iguana, Didds. Didds is the most obvious one.

There was some panic in the scum team early on with wagons around Glooble and Didds. They rallied to save each other, then hopped on the first alternative wagons. This is why all three voted late.

Vote: Didds

I doubt I'll be active much tomorrow BTW.
Is this to say that you think WCD is skum and Glooble is town. Or do you think they are both skum? Or what?

PPe - also what efoo said.

It's to say he thinks he knows the entire scum team, and doesn't even need to hear what might have happened with night actions or anyone else's reads or thoughts on the game state before voting them down one after another.

I'm bemused with pubby to be sure. I haven't met someone with his playstyle before.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Swowl on August 28, 2021, 10:58:11 pm
quick read on awa can't find crumbs - other please check.
Have thoughts, but am about to head out for the night, so it will have to wait until tomorrow.

Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: mathdude on August 28, 2021, 11:13:05 pm
Scum team is Glooble, Iguana, Didds. Didds is the most obvious one.

There was some panic in the scum team early on with wagons around Glooble and Didds. They rallied to save each other, then hopped on the first alternative wagons. This is why all three voted late.

Vote: Didds

I doubt I'll be active much tomorrow BTW.

Iguana definitely looked scrambled D1, but never having played with him before, I wanted to see it through the day. No point in starting wagons on 2 of them though... one at a time for now.

Vote: Didds
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Galzria on August 28, 2021, 11:32:38 pm
I do not think we should Exile WCD today.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Swowl on August 28, 2021, 11:50:38 pm
I do not think we should Exile WCD today.
Plot twist.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Swowl on August 28, 2021, 11:52:05 pm
Evidently i am around.
I have used all the ďhey why do you think thatĒ cards in my deck. But you knowÖ why the 180?
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: mathdude on August 28, 2021, 11:58:30 pm
I do not think we should Exile WCD today.

What are your thoughts on iguana?
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Galzria on August 29, 2021, 01:24:11 am
Evidently i am around.
I have used all the ďhey why do you think thatĒ cards in my deck. But you knowÖ why the 180?

If sheís scum, she has partners. If sheís not, sheís a bad exile. For reasons that I suspect are good, itís best to leave it there.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Galzria on August 29, 2021, 01:26:46 am
I do not think we should Exile WCD today.

What are your thoughts on iguana?

I could talk iguana. Or Glooble. Either could be a good place to start today.

Whatís your 411 on iguana?
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: faust on August 29, 2021, 03:23:03 am
I feel like we want to direct Galzria's shot tonight, If we don't exile him.

The e wagon was bad.

Vote: Dylan
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on August 29, 2021, 03:45:17 am
We should probably exile Galzria.

Not that I thought about it, I'm on vacation rn so I didn't reread anything.

I'll have real plans starting Tuesday.

Of all the people to test your theory, pubby, why vote Didds?

Galzria, why do I know if you should claim? You know your own action.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on August 29, 2021, 03:46:30 am
quick read on awa can't find crumbs - other please check.
Have thoughts, but am about to head out for the night, so it will have to wait until tomorrow.

It should be obvious what his target was.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: WestCoastDidds on August 29, 2021, 09:57:40 am
Good morning!

Scum team is Glooble, Iguana, Didds. Didds is the most obvious one.

There was some panic in the scum team early on with wagons around Glooble and Didds. They rallied to save each other, then hopped on the first alternative wagons. This is why all three voted late.

Vote: Didds

I doubt I'll be active much tomorrow BTW.

I find pubbyís claim that both Glooble and I are scum completely absurd. The odds of having two scum wagons that deep that early in the game would have to be astronomical. Absent that, that this was the first post and then outta here without any discussion of the night actions is annoying at best and anti town at worst.

As to the reasons pubby provided for his vote. PanicÖuhm no. I didnít feel panic. Perhaps he meant scrambling. But again, noÖ I wasnít scrambling. I was torn because I didít want to vote for e because I thought he was town. So, the question I wanted to know the answer to was it better to exile town or no exile. In the end it didnít matter, Iguana showed up and MiX hammered. If I was scum, why leave it to chance? Why not hammer? But the even better argument would be if the three of us were working together why would we collide to oust the hider instead of the vig? The big is far more dangerous to scum. That would have been the smarter play.

Vote Count 1.MiX
Galzria (5): faust, 2.71828...., WestCoastDidds, EFHW, Awaclus
2.71828.... (4): Swowl, Glooble, mathdude, Dylan32
WestCoastDidds (2): MiX, Galzria
Swowl (1): iguanaiguana
iguanaiguana (1): pubby
Not voting (0):

7 to exile. 3 hours to deadline.

What's the plan?

I can see a narrative for Glooble and iguana working in concert. But all three of us? That is in no way clear to me.  Iguana was pretty much voting for me all day yesterday, which also doesnít seem scum partnery.

Iguana definitely looked scrambled D1, but never having played with him before, I wanted to see it through the day. No point in starting wagons on 2 of them though... one at a time for now.

Vote: Didds

But this is even more interesting to me! Math is saying ďyes! Thatís it! Iguana looked like he was scrambling so Iíll vote for WCD!Ē How the heck does that follow. Math isnít scum, but that logic is severely lacking.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: iguanaiguana on August 29, 2021, 12:12:19 pm
Has Pubby ever been scum? If so, can someone point me to pubby's most recent scum game? I have a hypothesis to test.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: EFHW on August 29, 2021, 12:55:22 pm
Didds, why do you say math isn't scum?
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: faust on August 29, 2021, 01:14:59 pm
I would appreciate an overview of the overlaps between yesterday's wagons, but it's hard to do from the phone.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: WestCoastDidds on August 29, 2021, 01:44:50 pm
Didds, why do you say math isn't scum?

Because I donít think he is
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: WestCoastDidds on August 29, 2021, 02:03:07 pm
I would appreciate an overview of the overlaps between yesterday's wagons, but it's hard to do from the phone.

Iím on my phone, too, but I will share what I just put in my notes. So, not an overview, but maybe helpfulÖ.

Vote Count 1.1

Dylan32 (1): Glooble
LaLight (1): iguanaiguana
faust (2):  Awaclus, 2.71828.....
iguanaiguana (1): pubby
Awaclus (1): MiX
pubby (1): mathdude
mathdude (1): faust

Not voting (5): Swowl, Dylan32, WestCoastDidds, EFHW, Galzria

óóóóóóóóóó-
Vote Count 1.2

iguanaiguana (2): pubby, faust
pubby (2): mathdude, Glooble
EFHW (1): 2.71828....
2.71828.... (1): Awaclus
Galzria (1): MiX
Swowl (1): WestCoastDidds

Not voting (5): Swowl, Dylan32, Galzria, EFHW, iguanaiguana

óóóóóóóó
Vote Count 1.3

Swowl (2): faust, Awaclus
Glooble (2): MiX, WestCoastDidds
2.71828.... (2): EFHW, Swowl
iguanaiguana (1): pubby
EFHW (1): 2.71828....
WestCoastDidds (1): Galzria
faust (1): Glooble
mathdude (1): iguanaiguana

Not voting (2): Dylan32, mathdude
óóóóóóóóóó
Vote Count 1.3.MiX

WestCoastDidds (4): Galzria, iguanaiguana, Glooble, EFHW
Glooble (3): WestCoastDidds, Dylan32, MiX
Swowl (2): faust, Awaclus
2.71828.... (1): Swowl
iguanaiguana (1): pubby
EFHW (1): 2.71828....

Not voting (1): mathdude

óóóóóóóóóóó
Vote Count 1.3.MiX.2

WestCoastDidds (4): Galzria, iguanaiguana, Glooble, EFHW
2.71828.... (3): Swowl, Awaclus, MiX
Glooble (1): Dylan32
iguanaiguana (1): pubby
EFHW (1): 2.71828....
faust (1): mathdude
Galzria (1): faust

Not voting (1): WestCoastDidds
óóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóó-
Vote Count 1.4

2.71828.... (4): Swowl, Awaclus, MiX, Glooble
Galzria (3): faust, 2.71828...., WestCoastDidds
WestCoastDidds (3): Galzria, iguanaiguana, EFHW
Glooble (1): Dylan32
iguanaiguana (1): pubby
faust (1): mathdude
óóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóó

Vote Count 1.4.MiX

2.71828.... (5): Swowl, Awaclus, Glooble, mathdude, Galzria
Galzria (3): faust, 2.71828...., WestCoastDidds, MiX
WestCoastDidds (1): iguanaiguana
Glooble (1): Dylan32
iguanaiguana (1): pubby

Not voting (1): EFHW
óóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóó-

Didds Count

2.71828.... (5): Swowl, Awaclus, Glooble, mathdude, Galzria
Galzria (5): faust, 2.71828...., WestCoastDidds, MiX, EFHW
Swowl (1): iguanaiguana
Glooble (1): Dylan32
iguanaiguana (1): pubby
óóóóóóóóóóóóóóó-

Vote Count 1.5

2.71828.... (6): Swowl, Awaclus, Glooble, mathdude, Galzria, Dylan32 (L-1)
Galzria (5): faust, 2.71828...., WestCoastDidds, MiX, EFHW (L-2)
Swowl (1): iguanaiguana
iguanaiguana (1): pubby

Not voting (0)
óóóóóóóóóóóóóóóó.
Vote Count 1.MiX

Galzria (5): faust, 2.71828...., WestCoastDidds, EFHW, Awaclus
2.71828.... (4): Swowl, Glooble, mathdude, Dylan32
WestCoastDidds (2): MiX, Galzria
Swowl (1): iguanaiguana
iguanaiguana (1): pubby
Not voting (0):
óóóóóóóóóóóó-   

Vote Count 1.?.MiX

Galzria (6): faust, WestCoastDidds, EFHW, Awaclus, Glooble, iguanaiguana
2.71828.... (3): Swowl, mathdude, Dylan32
iguanaiguana (1): pubby
Glooble (1): Galzria

No exile (2): 2.71828...., MiX
óóóóóóóóóóóóó-

Didds Count

Galzria (4): faust, EFHW, Awaclus, iguanaiguana
2.71828.... (5): Swowl, mathdude, Dylan32, Galz, Glooble
iguanaiguana (1): pubby


No exile/not voting  (3): 2.71828...., MiX, WCD
óóóóóóóó-

Vote Count 1.6

2.71828.... (7): Swowl, , mathdude, Dylan32, Galzria, Glooble,  iguanaiguana, MiX
Galzria (4): faust, EFHW, Awaclus, WestCoastDidds
iguanaiguana (1): pubby

No exile (1): 2.71828....

Not voting (0)
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on August 29, 2021, 02:08:39 pm
I like my VC names.

Pubby, how do you explain iguana and Glooble both being on Didds at one point?
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: mathdude on August 29, 2021, 03:14:52 pm
Iguana definitely looked scrambled D1, but never having played with him before, I wanted to see it through the day. No point in starting wagons on 2 of them though... one at a time for now.

Vote: Didds

But this is even more interesting to me! Math is saying ďyes! Thatís it! Iguana looked like he was scrambling so Iíll vote for WCD!Ē How the heck does that follow. Math isnít scum, but that logic is severely lacking.

I'm not sure if pubby got 3 right. But getting at least 2 seems plausible, given D1 stuffs. I jumped on early, just to put extra pressure. I currently feel pubby is more likely to be town than at least Glooble and Iguana. So let's see what kind of defenses pop up.

I'm not sure about you, Didds, as you're being helpful, so maybe he's wrong about you.

Vote: Iguana
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: EFHW on August 29, 2021, 06:07:20 pm
Iguana definitely looked scrambled D1, but never having played with him before, I wanted to see it through the day. No point in starting wagons on 2 of them though... one at a time for now.

Vote: Didds

But this is even more interesting to me! Math is saying ďyes! Thatís it! Iguana looked like he was scrambling so Iíll vote for WCD!Ē How the heck does that follow. Math isnít scum, but that logic is severely lacking.

I'm not sure if pubby got 3 right. But getting at least 2 seems plausible, given D1 stuffs. I jumped on early, just to put extra pressure. I currently feel pubby is more likely to be town than at least Glooble and Iguana. So let's see what kind of defenses pop up.

I'm not sure about you, Didds, as you're being helpful, so maybe he's wrong about you.

Vote: Iguana

This post seems illogical to me. scum!Didds would be helpful. There's no reason any of pubby's choices have to be scum. Until he comes back and says some more,

vote: Pubby
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: LaLight on August 29, 2021, 06:29:47 pm

Flavor texts are for those who are smart, courageous and kind.

Vote Count 2.1

WestCoastDidds (1): pubby
Dylan32 (1): faust
iguanaiguana (1): mathdude
pubby (1): EFHW

Not voting (7): Swowl, Dylan32, Galzria, Glooble, iguanaiguana, MiX, WestCoastDidds

With 11 alive, it takes 6 to exile. Day 2 ends Thursday, September 2 at 10:00 pm forum time.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: iguanaiguana on August 29, 2021, 06:56:50 pm
So I'm wanting to look closer  at pubby, now also looking at WCD and Glooble. These are the three I've played least with. I'll be looking for the most recent game or 2 where they were mafia for all three.

If anyone knows them off hand, please tell me as that'll save me time hunting them down.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: iguanaiguana on August 29, 2021, 06:57:43 pm
Oh I've also not played with mathdude, not planning to study his scum habits at this time though.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Glooble on August 29, 2021, 07:01:50 pm
I don't remember the last time I was scum.

Sorry I haven't been back on since the day started, I've been busy. For the record I am townreading Didds still, but for reasons that only hold up if you know that I'm town (when it was her vs. me she backed off rather than push my wagon, but of course if you think we're partners that doesn't hold water.)

I'll try and be more present tomorrow or maybe later tonight.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Glooble on August 29, 2021, 07:11:01 pm
RM57 - Westworld mafia is the last time I was scum (I looked it up.)
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: WestCoastDidds on August 29, 2021, 07:11:15 pm
So I'm wanting to look closer  at pubby, now also looking at WCD and Glooble. These are the three I've played least with. I'll be looking for the most recent game or 2 where they were mafia for all three.

If anyone knows them off hand, please tell me as that'll save me time hunting them down.

I was just scum in Battlestar Galatica 2 and then in the bastard dwarves game. I have not been scum a lot.

I was town in Memento and pretty much everything else recently.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: iguanaiguana on August 29, 2021, 08:24:40 pm
So I'm wanting to look closer  at pubby, now also looking at WCD and Glooble. These are the three I've played least with. I'll be looking for the most recent game or 2 where they were mafia for all three.

If anyone knows them off hand, please tell me as that'll save me time hunting them down.

I was just scum in Battlestar Galatica 2 and then in the bastard dwarves game. I have not been scum a lot.

I was town in Memento and pretty much everything else recently.

Can you briefly explain the way you were caught out as scum in Battlestar? I want to understand better why everyone thinks you are doomed to screw up if you are scum here.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: iguanaiguana on August 29, 2021, 08:32:55 pm
RM57 - Westworld mafia is the last time I was scum (I looked it up.)

So basically when you're scum, you post 6 times then replace out?
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: WestCoastDidds on August 29, 2021, 08:51:48 pm
So I'm wanting to look closer  at pubby, now also looking at WCD and Glooble. These are the three I've played least with. I'll be looking for the most recent game or 2 where they were mafia for all three.

If anyone knows them off hand, please tell me as that'll save me time hunting them down.

I was just scum in Battlestar Galatica 2 and then in the bastard dwarves game. I have not been scum a lot.

I was town in Memento and pretty much everything else recently.

Can you briefly explain the way you were caught out as scum in Battlestar? I want to understand better why everyone thinks you are doomed to screw up if you are scum here.

It was in the claims. EFHW had tracked me. I had made Swowl invisible, but I said I hadnít targeted him. It starts here ( http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20811.1300) 

Jimmmm has a site where we used to play, and i was scum with faust in one of those and messed up the claims badly and got caught.

So, pretty much I suck at fake claiming.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: iguanaiguana on August 29, 2021, 09:05:19 pm
I'm having to get going again soon here before I do all the massive amount of work I want to do on this day. But before I get going, I just want to point out something that struck me as a really scummy post.

Galzria, can you claim?

I am the Tin Man.

Do you want me to claim my PR?

Most likely, yes.

I am Dorothyís protector by flavor provided.

I am a 2-shot Vig.

I donít shoot as Vig, so Iím essentially a VT, which is why my Exile is better than No Exile as it generates information at the very least while losing a PR that wonít be used.

That said, if I *did* shoot i couldíve helped resolv the e situation (if I understand correctly) if he didnít get exiled which is why I advocated going back to WCD here.

So here's a few things, some of them are speculative and not all of these speculations are the type that usually get much credence around here, but, they are compelling to me and so I need to share them.

1) Galz claims tin man. If I am modding this game, I am going to give at least 1 of tin man, scarecrow, or lion to scum as a fake claim. When Dorothy is already IC, you don't just give all three of tin man, scarecrow and lion to town. That would hurt scum, so you give them a strong fake claim of one of those. Therefore, since the lion has already flipped town, tin man is a suspicious claim. Hell, to the town!scarecrow, if there is one, this should be a hella suspicious claim.

2) Galz claims his flavor indicates he is 'the protector of dorothy,' but his role is not a protective role. Once again, hella suspicious. To me, it indicates that Galzria could be scum, and he was given a fake claim of "tin man, protector of Dorothy" with an actual protective ability for a fakeclaim.... THEN... he decided to claim 2-shot vig instead because 2-shot vig claim worked better for his scum plan. ALSO, we've already seen a protective town role flip in the jailkeeper flip. ALSO... I will go as far as to say that my role flavor text does make poetic sense. So I know that Joth writes flavor text that makes poetic sense for at least some roles. So for Galz's to be all funky like that "protector of Dorothy whose job is to shoot people"... hella suspicous.

3)Also... why the hell would the tin man be a 2-shot vig? Tin man don't got no gun!! Tin man off looking for his HEART. That's another thing that does not make poetic sense about Galz's claim.

4) Finally, as noted, Galz claiming 2-shot vig is just suspicious in general. Its a convenient claim. It gives him license to kill as scum without tracker or watcher seeing it. And tying it all in with his established no-shoot meta is convenient. Also, only one death last night.

Okay, that's all for now. Please consider it!!!
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: WestCoastDidds on August 29, 2021, 09:06:53 pm
Iguana, I looked back a bit further at my qt listÖ

I have never won as scum, except in the dwarves bastard game.

I have won twice as a third party in BM31 random word, and in RMM55 falling skies 2. The latter is the one with the epic qt because we had daychat.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: iguanaiguana on August 29, 2021, 09:07:28 pm
Whether or not the argument is good, this was the reaction I had after Galz claimed EoD1 yesterday. So for people confused why I pushed e, hemmed and hawed, switched to Galz, then finally gave up and voted e again only after it was clear that the Galz exile was impossible... Now you know why. It was for things that I was feeling in my heart about FLAVOR TEXT.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Dylan32 on August 29, 2021, 11:08:18 pm
Hey, checking in. I was out of town this weekend and just made it back home, but I'm going to bed now, so I'll catch up tomorrow.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Swowl on August 29, 2021, 11:22:17 pm
quick read on awa can't find crumbs - other please check.
Have thoughts, but am about to head out for the night, so it will have to wait until tomorrow.

It should be obvious what his target was.

facts. I was being dumb.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: mathdude on August 30, 2021, 01:04:21 am

Flavor texts are for those who are smart, courageous and kind.

Umm, there's definitely something here. ^^ (scarecrow, lion, tin man, but why?) That gives me hope that there is information in previous (and likely future) mod messages.

Also iguana seems to have found some possible inconsistencies in Galz's claim, which I believe I and one other person (may have been iguana) started mentioning D1. I also agree about the poetic-ness of my role and flavour, and it doesn't quite match for Galz.

Galz, what say you? Are you withholding some information from us?
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Swowl on August 30, 2021, 01:37:12 am
Galz - what promted the "no MiX, I am not claiming" to the "Mix, do you want me to claim"?
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: pubby on August 30, 2021, 01:47:44 am
If you only read part of my post, read the reply to the quote below.

Can you point to the posts that seemed either panicked or rallying?
The panic was post #313 and #314, where Iguana and Didds pushed to defend glooble without any reason or any reason to. They seemed rather concerned about exiling an innocent man...

Then something suspicious happens.

Iguana brings Galz to L-1. This means all 3 of Glooble/Iguana/Didds are now on the Galz wagon. Exiling the town vig will draw way too much scrutiny to the wagon, so Didds hops off. But then her next post she says, "Mix, youíd rather see no exile than Galz? You sure?". She pushing to exile before the day is up!

So lemme get this straight. She wants an exile, just after unvoting an L-1 candidate, and only a day after discouraging the Glooble wagon. This is what I call the rally.

So OK, Glooble and Iguana rapidly switch their vote to e once Didds leaves. Now e is at L-1, and Didds can get the exile she wants. But again, having all 3 scum jump on the wagon at the end would draw too much scrutiny, so Didds can't join it. She says she doesn't want to vote for e, but doesn't provide any defense to him in the manner she did for glooble. She says she can vote for Galz again though - maybe it's because her buddies are off him now? So instead she tries to convince MiX to be the e hammer, and succeeds. Read her posts - she's persurading MiX to vote for e instead of doing it herself. It's funny, she said she had to go to the vet and wouldn't be around for the end, but then posts 18 minutes later and 1 minute after MiX votes.

Pubby, how do you explain iguana and Glooble both being on Didds at one point?
I mean it's normal for scum to vote for each other at some point of the game, and D1 is a common time for that. Makes them look less like buddies.

Of all the people to test your theory, pubby, why vote Didds?
Didds is behaving too similarly to the last time I played with her (Dwarf). She was scum in that game. In my observation when she is town she is more laid back and less defensive and posts more chit-chat. When she is scum she puts on a theater of being helpful at every chance she gets, e.g. her posting the entire d1 vote history or taking 2 posts to explain the prior games she was in.

It's to say he thinks he knows the entire scum team, and doesn't even need to hear what might have happened with night actions or anyone else's reads or thoughts on the game state before voting them down one after another.
Your viewpoint does not consider that I may have my own night actions and information. I'm not saying I do, just pointing out that your viewpoint lacks it.

I find pubbyís claim that both Glooble and I are scum completely absurd. The odds of having two scum wagons that deep that early in the game would have to be astronomical. Absent that, that this was the first post and then outta here without any discussion of the night actions is annoying at best and anti town at worst.
Assuming 3 scum in a game of 13, the probability of 2 out of 4 wagons being scum is like 12+% or something. Not astronomical. Revealing night actions without discussing votes from the day prior first is annoying at best and anti town at worst. Or maybe it's fine to do either or.

-

I'll end this post with an interesting observation. If Glooble/Iguana/Didds (hereby known as GID) were town, presumably scum would have made a move on them after my post. I'm not saying they would go all-out, but it would be reasonable for scum to brew some suspicion on GID based on my post. One person bit: Mathdude. He voted for Didds, then when that didn't take off he changed it to Iguana.

This is pretty useful information IMO.

Scenario 1: Mathdude is scum, hoping to use my post to his advantage. I mean, reading his old posts it seems plausible. He wanted to exile Awaclus d1 for example.
Scenario 2: Mathdude is town, meaning zero scum jumped on my GID post. But that's super weird, right? A big fat juicy finger point at 3 potential people and no scum jumped on it? Instead they defended GID? Nah, with this scenario it's more likely that GID contains 2+ scum and they're looking out for each other.

Other explanations don't seem feasible to me. They can't all 4 be town, because again, the entire scum team would be ignoring my post to instead defend townies. And they can't all 4 be scum - partly because 4 scum is unlikely in a 13 player game - but also because mathdude would be sabotaging the team by trying to exile them. This last point also applies to mathdude being scum along with some of GID.

So I'll posit this: The majority of GID has the opposite alignment to Mathdude. Proving one alignment will prove the other. And I'm putting my money on Scum!GID.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on August 30, 2021, 04:23:10 am
Whether or not the argument is good, this was the reaction I had after Galz claimed EoD1 yesterday. So for people confused why I pushed e, hemmed and hawed, switched to Galz, then finally gave up and voted e again only after it was clear that the Galz exile was impossible... Now you know why. It was for things that I was feeling in my heart about FLAVOR TEXT.

Why the hell did you not say that yesterday?

Why do people not share their reasons to vote??

Why do I have to guess how strong scumreads are?? ??

Why couldn't Awaclus just say "I am also a protective role so I trust e" aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: faust on August 30, 2021, 07:51:14 am
pubby, it's good to see a longer post from you, but I can't help but feel your energy is misdirected. At this point in the game, we need to find a single scum, going hard for pretty involved partner theories isn't going to do any good.

Plus, much of the argument you presented seems to hinge on Galz being town, but I didn't see you provide a reason for that.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: mathdude on August 30, 2021, 09:39:26 am
unvote

I'm heading out for some backwoods camping shortly. I will likely have no cell service, and even if I do, my battery won't last very long. I'll be back, likely around 3 to 5pm (forum time) on Thursday, so I will be around for end of D2.

But this is why I tried to jump on things early today. I did nothing at night, so it was either continue discussion from D1 or jump on the starting discussions today.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: iguanaiguana on August 30, 2021, 11:14:01 am
Whether or not the argument is good, this was the reaction I had after Galz claimed EoD1 yesterday. So for people confused why I pushed e, hemmed and hawed, switched to Galz, then finally gave up and voted e again only after it was clear that the Galz exile was impossible... Now you know why. It was for things that I was feeling in my heart about FLAVOR TEXT.

Why the hell did you not say that yesterday?

Why do people not share their reasons to vote??

Why do I have to guess how strong scumreads are?? ??

Why couldn't Awaclus just say "I am also a protective role so I trust e" aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.

Yeah, it really sucked. Galz claimed really late in D1 and by the time he claimed I was super busy. I literally did not have time to type the words.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Glooble on August 30, 2021, 11:30:28 am
RM57 - Westworld mafia is the last time I was scum (I looked it up.)

So basically when you're scum, you post 6 times then replace out?

Totally forgot that I replaced out of that game. I was just looking through role PMs to find a red one.

I'll try and find a full game where I was scum. But it's been a while.

Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Glooble on August 30, 2021, 11:36:20 am
Looks like BM27 was my last scum game prior to that: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=19953.0
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: iguanaiguana on August 30, 2021, 01:26:04 pm
Okay, second thing on my list is to take a good close look at everything related to pubby.

vote: iguanaiguana

Out of the gate, pubby votes for me.

Ok, time for an embarassing post.

Lalight is not playing :(

I just realized this... right now. I think when I cast my first vote, I had just scanned the players and saw LL's name. Then for some reason Joth decided to make my vote for his comod count in the vote totals... which validated my feelings of LL playing this game. Today I looked to try to figure out why he hadn't posted yet... and ... yeah... Lol, I failed.
In other words you felt obligated to vote for someone in your opening post and didn't care who. Scummy much?

In pubby's first substantive post, his maybe-rvs-vote on me has hardened into a SERIOUS SCUM READ. At this point in the game, I was actually town reading pubby for this. I figured he started with a scum read on me, and confirmation bias was pushing him to continue reading everything I was saying as scum. I figured if he continues to see me play he will re-evaluate at some point (spoiler warning!! this never happens!)

I've been somewhat suspicious of glooble. Their first few posts were terse and seemed like they were just going through the motions. Then they jump into an argument with faust, acting defensively when the actual topic of discussion didn't require it.

But for now I'm fine with parking my vote on iguana. Swowl I read as town.

The conspiracy theory begins to form in pubby's second substantive post. Now it's not just Iguana... but Glooble is looking like scum too. I'll note here that his nod to Swowl - "Swowl I read as town" with no reasons given - is pretty out of character for him this game. By and large he's going to talk about nothing except for GID.

This shouldnít be a choice between Glooble and me.
Yeah it's awful. I would vote for both of you if I could  8)

Glooble is a really bad vote. I'm at work so kinda busy today. Yes I knew Didds, I maybe didn't play with her quite as much as the others
What makes him a really bad vote? This is d1. Our decisions can't be *that* informed.

At what point do I claim, given that once my role is revealed we will need time to find an alternate wagon?
You just hinted you have an important role, no? That's almost as bad as a full claim.

His third substantive post. I have to say... I kind of love this post. So, Pubby is currently voting for me, right? That was his first vote & post of the game and it never changes D1. But here he suggests essentially that if he had a SECOND and a THIRD vote... he'd complete the trio and vote Glooble Iguana Didds. GID!!! He's found the whole scum team!!!

In addition to that, he interrogates my town read on Glooble... (Impossible that anyone could be so CERTAIN!!! Okay... that's a little ironic though.) and chides Glooble with "That's almost as bad as a full claim." In other words... you sure are playing bad town by hinting you have a strong PR.... so you must be scum!!! Yeah, that doesn't make sense to me, sorry.

Don't go voting for e. Galzria is a much better exile.

So are like, a bunch of people. You could start a wagon on pubby, or Dylan or someone.

I'm throwing this faust post in as well for a reason. Aside from Glooble, Swowl, and myself... No one else yet has even talked about pubby until faust comes in and says this. It's almost eerie how little interaction with anyone that pubby gets away with day one.

Scum team is Glooble, Iguana, Didds. Didds is the most obvious one.

There was some panic in the scum team early on with wagons around Glooble and Didds. They rallied to save each other, then hopped on the first alternative wagons. This is why all three voted late.

Vote: Didds

I doubt I'll be active much tomorrow BTW.

Okay... now we're on to D2. We've seen two town flips & had 48 hours to consider the error of our ways. Most people are going to have reconsidered some thing about the game.... Not pubby though. GID was good enough for D1 and it's definitely where he's sticking D2.

The case is not making much sense though. Here is the wagon at the point which he calls "some panic... early on."

Vote Count 1.3.MiX

WestCoastDidds (4): Galzria, iguanaiguana, Glooble, EFHW
Glooble (3): WestCoastDidds, Dylan32, MiX
Swowl (2): faust, Awaclus
2.71828.... (1): Swowl
iguanaiguana (1): pubby
EFHW (1): 2.71828....

Not voting (1): mathdude

But... there was not "panic" when I made a somewhat big post with a case on Didds out of the blue D1. At that point... only Galzria had been voting her and for reasons that most people didn't really agree with. The next person to hop on was Glooble. So we have a wagon on Didds that is Galzria, Iguana, Glooble, then EFHW joins the wagon due to a mix of agreeing with me and her own reasons.

Around the same time, WCD votes for Glooble, and we get Dylan & MiX joining. According to the scum team that pubby has made up, we would have two wagons on scum at this point... the first two wagons created thus far in the game... and the reason they were created is because... scum made the cases for them? And the fact that we created wagons on ourselves makes us panicked?

Also... all three voted late? No... all three of us were hyper present at the end of the day. We each had our opinions on where we should vote... they did not perfectly align... and we ended up compromising partially based on what each of the other active players wanted and where the votes on the inactive players had landed. I was sitting there doing calculations making sure that we literally did not have the votes to go back to Galzria before I caved and voted e in the last few minutes. But I also voted for e early! and then voted for Galzria! So saying I "hopped on that wagon" late is the same kind of mischaracterization of my behavior that pubby started the game out with.

It was this post D2 that really made me think pubby is more likely scum. I mean, there is confirmation bias and then there is a complete refusal to reconsider your reads whatsoever.... along with a complete lack of even trying to read anyone else for over a week. To me... It's starting to look like scum!pubby cast about for a narrative he could build of towns being scums. Once he found one, he decided to stick with it.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: iguanaiguana on August 30, 2021, 02:01:20 pm
No read of pubby would be complete without a look into his most recent long post... so here goes! I'm not going to quote the whole things... just some highlights.

If you only read part of my post, read the reply to the quote below.

Can you point to the posts that seemed either panicked or rallying?
The panic was post #313 and #314, where Iguana and Didds pushed to defend glooble without any reason or any reason to. They seemed rather concerned about exiling an innocent man...
The post of mine he's referencing is where I say "Glooble is a really bad vote." Look... Glooble had just recently accused Swowl of rolefishing. The conversation was awkward and not good for town... but to me it indicated that Glooble might have a good PR. That along with what I read as pro-town play from Glooble was more than enough D1 to motivate me to say "Glooble is a really bad vote." Of course I didn't want to spell out the reasons. Why would I want to spell it out even more for scum where the strong PRs are?

Quote
Then something suspicious happens.

Iguana brings Galz to L-1. This means all 3 of Glooble/Iguana/Didds are now on the Galz wagon. Exiling the town vig will draw way too much scrutiny to the wagon, so Didds hops off. But then her next post she says, "Mix, youíd rather see no exile than Galz? You sure?". She pushing to exile before the day is up!

Before the day was up? Wrong. The vote count put out just after Galz was at L-1 indicates there were two hours left in the day. Everything that happened at this point and after was totally last minute scrambling.

Also, if we were the team, how could we have put Galz to L-1 knowing that no town is going to hammer that? e was even not voting at that point and could have hammered there to save himself... If we were performatively voting Galz with an actual intention of getting e exiled instead, that would have just been a lot of unnecessarily putting ourselves in a delicate situation. Sorry, but this theory is super convoluted at best.
 
Quote
It's to say he thinks he knows the entire scum team, and doesn't even need to hear what might have happened with night actions or anyone else's reads or thoughts on the game state before voting them down one after another.
Your viewpoint does not consider that I may have my own night actions and information. I'm not saying I do, just pointing out that your viewpoint lacks it.

No, even if you do have private information... my point is that you did not wait for anyone else to share any of any of their information before putting all of your cards on the table and claiming to have found out the entire scum team. In a game that is predicated around consensus building... the only thing you have shown any sustained interest in this game is your own GID theory. You do not seem to care what anyone else thinks except to convince them to agree with you. My point is very much valid. Again, I can't help but feel that you are twisting my words.

Quote
I'll end this post with an interesting observation. If Glooble/Iguana/Didds (hereby known as GID) were town, presumably scum would have made a move on them after my post. I'm not saying they would go all-out, but it would be reasonable for scum to brew some suspicion on GID based on my post. One person bit: Mathdude. He voted for Didds, then when that didn't take off he changed it to Iguana.

Here's another theory for you! Not many people voted in agreement with your case... because your case is not very good! faust and EFHW both interacted with it. They totally shot it down. If your theory is correct, those people are town. If your theory is wrong, maybe one or both of them is scum. Either way... in general people aren't going to bite on any kind of theory where you spell out an entire scum team at the start of the day Day 2. That's just the game, sorry.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: iguanaiguana on August 30, 2021, 02:06:33 pm
I really WANT to vote pubby right now. But I am going to force myself to do due diligence and read some of his previous games first to get a sense of whether he's always this hardened in his reads in town games and whether he's behaved like this before as scum. Again, help would be appreciated. Digging for informative games through someone's posting history is hard.

And yeah, I'm out of time to play for today. The rest of the stuff I want to do will have to wait for tomorrow.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on August 30, 2021, 02:16:51 pm
Anyone else getting a vibe that some players are playing a different game?

Does anyone object to Galzria claiming his action?
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: iguanaiguana on August 30, 2021, 03:10:08 pm
Anyone else getting a vibe that some players are playing a different game?

Does anyone object to Galzria claiming his action?

1. Not sure if you are poking at me... but... Am I playing too hard and with diminishing returns on my effort? probably lol

2. No, personally I would like to see the claim.

Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: EFHW on August 30, 2021, 04:13:12 pm
Well,  the case from pubby had more to it than I expected, but iguana's defense has more. Also, after making his case, pubby then wants to scumread math for jumping on it. I kind of agree with him there, but his thinking math looks scummy makes me wonder if pubby really means what he is saying about GID.  I'll stay on pubby since I'm there now, while mentioning that I'm also not feeling good about mathdude.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: WestCoastDidds on August 30, 2021, 04:39:56 pm

I am not going to respond to most of pubby's post because its long and convoluted and doesnt make sense to me.  He has scum creating, advocating for, and running up wagons on each other. He has me bussing despite the fact that is not in my playstyle at all, and is generally crediting me with a plan that in no way way make sense.  However, two points merit response.

Iguana brings Galz to L-1. This means all 3 of Glooble/Iguana/Didds are now on the Galz wagon. Exiling the town vig will draw way too much scrutiny to the wagon, so Didds hops off. But then her next post she says, "Mix, youíd rather see no exile than Galz? You sure?". She pushing to exile before the day is up!

So lemme get this straight. She wants an exile, just after unvoting an L-1 candidate, and only a day after discouraging the Glooble wagon. This is what I call the rally.

So instead she tries to convince MiX to be the e hammer, and succeeds. Read her posts - she's persurading MiX to vote for e instead of doing it herself. It's funny, she said she had to go to the vet and wouldn't be around for the end, but then posts 18 minutes later and 1 minute after MiX votes.

Pushing to exile before the day was up? We were two hours from deadline when I made that comment.  In no world is that early.  Pubby wasn't even around for the end of the day, so maybe he wasn't aware how time was working, but that is the most charitable read I can give him.

Pushing for a hammer? Persuading Mix to hammer?  What game are you playing? I was far more in favor of no exile than exiling town, and preferred Galz to e.  There is not a scenario where e was my choice or my idea of my exile.

Finally, it is SUPER NOT COOL to imply that am I am lying about my real world commitment in the run up to deadline. My vet is a mile away. It took a few minutes to get there, get my cat, and bring him home from his surgery.  Further, when I got to the vet I had to wait on them to get him so had a few minutes to check the game.  I was trying to do my part and help town and didn't want to leave anyone hanging so I said where I'd be.  Where were you? Why were you not available at deadline? Availability or not is not scummy. If it were you'd be scummy for parking your vote on a non-wagon and refusing to move it even though town needed votes. While the game involves deception, accusing someone of lying about their circumstances is beyond the bounds of okay by me.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: WestCoastDidds on August 30, 2021, 04:42:45 pm
Vote: pubby

In the course of writing about the super not coolness, I have decided there is no way that was inadvertent. It is grasping at straws to make a weak case song strong.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: WestCoastDidds on August 30, 2021, 04:44:08 pm
Anyone else getting a vibe that some players are playing a different game?

Does anyone object to Galzria claiming his action?

Not different games, but focusing on really different things and it seems to be stopping the game from moving forward.

Glaz claim is okay by me.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Glooble on August 30, 2021, 04:47:02 pm
I'm open to a pubby exile, but I'd like to look more into yesterday's e wagon to see who looks scummy on it.

Awaclus casts the first vote for e, based on e's criticism of my vote for pubby. Then MiX joins the wagon.

Swowl then votes e for bringing up the possibility of a D1 mass claim.

Awaclus votes for Swowl, unvoting e. MiX unvotes. Awaclus switches back to e, doesn't give a reason. MiX switches back to e again.

I then switch my vote to e because I'm townreading Didds slightly for backing down rather than pushing my exile.

mathdude joins the wagon without much explanation, putting e at L-2. For my money this is one of the scummier votes, but I admit mine doesn't look great either.

faust comes in critical of the e exile. Town points.

Galz votes for e, with two votes for himself. Hedges about it. Kinda scummy.

MiX switched to Galz.

Dylan puts e to L-1, saying he thinks "e is more likely to flip scum than Galz". This is a nothing statement. I also find this vote potentially scummy.

E claims at L-1

MiX declares that e is town, despite a difficult-to-verify claim.

Awaclus switches to Galz, putting him at L-1. MiX and Galzria switch their votes to Didds, putting e at a same-seeming L-3.

Galz claims, and I switch my vote from e to Galz. Seems more likely to get through, plus a vig who won't vig doesn't seem like a huge loss to me.

Galz swaps his vote to e again. I switch back to e as Galz wagon seems stalled and I want to get an exile through. iguanaiguana votes e, reluctantly, for the same reasons.

Hammer by the IC.

Sorry for the wall of text.  Final wagon is Swowl, mathdude, Dylan32, Galzria, Glooble,  iguanaiguana, MiX, but that order is deceptive with so much unvoting and switching. Technically Awaclus started the wagon but he didn't end up on it, despite voting for e twice. Swowl was the third vote onto e and stayed there throughout all the moving around that happened. Galzria pretty clearly jumped on as an act of self-preservation, and iguana, MiX and myself were all just trying to get any exile through. Put all this together and it has the makings of a pretty townie wagon. Scummiest members are mathdude and Dylan imo. They both got onto e when there were multiple viable wagons, didn't give compelling reasons, and disappeared conveniently during the end-of-day scramble. Granted that last one might have been due to irl concerns, but still, that's where I want to exile today. Or pubby, could still do that. Or maybe Galz, iguana's Galz case has some merit.

vote: Dylan32 for now.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on August 30, 2021, 05:24:36 pm
It seems me, iguana and Glooble all ended on e because an alternative didn't seem possible. But it was, I made sure of that.

I just thought people would not swap fast enough, and that scum could just afk to save galz.

Glooble, is it time to claim why you wanted to vote pubby?
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Glooble on August 30, 2021, 05:43:57 pm
It seems me, iguana and Glooble all ended on e because an alternative didn't seem possible. But it was, I made sure of that.

I just thought people would not swap fast enough, and that scum could just afk to save galz.

Glooble, is it time to claim why you wanted to vote pubby?

I wasn't online right at deadline because I had class. Otherwise I would have swapped to Galz, but as of the last time I was online it didn't seem possible.

No, the reasons were very thin and I can't give them away without claiming which I don't want to do. Seriously with all the hubaloo when I finally do reveal them you'll all think me quite mad.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Dylan32 on August 30, 2021, 06:22:33 pm
Iguana reads as town to me. His defense against Pubby's post sounded more like a townie's defense, and a lot of my thoughts (not all, but a lot) have been mirrored in things they've said before I manage to get on and catch up, so that seems townie to me. I agree that the GID theory is probably wrong on the whole, but I remember being in some games as town where I thought I had figured out the scum team really early and it can be hard to shake that thought, so I don't necessarily think Pubby is scum for trying to prove his case.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Dylan32 on August 30, 2021, 06:41:39 pm
I'm open to a pubby exile, but I'd like to look more into yesterday's e wagon to see who looks scummy on it.

Awaclus casts the first vote for e, based on e's criticism of my vote for pubby. Then MiX joins the wagon.

Swowl then votes e for bringing up the possibility of a D1 mass claim.

Awaclus votes for Swowl, unvoting e. MiX unvotes. Awaclus switches back to e, doesn't give a reason. MiX switches back to e again.

I then switch my vote to e because I'm townreading Didds slightly for backing down rather than pushing my exile.

mathdude joins the wagon without much explanation, putting e at L-2. For my money this is one of the scummier votes, but I admit mine doesn't look great either.

faust comes in critical of the e exile. Town points.

Galz votes for e, with two votes for himself. Hedges about it. Kinda scummy.

MiX switched to Galz.

Dylan puts e to L-1, saying he thinks "e is more likely to flip scum than Galz". This is a nothing statement. I also find this vote potentially scummy.

E claims at L-1

MiX declares that e is town, despite a difficult-to-verify claim.

Awaclus switches to Galz, putting him at L-1. MiX and Galzria switch their votes to Didds, putting e at a same-seeming L-3.

Galz claims, and I switch my vote from e to Galz. Seems more likely to get through, plus a vig who won't vig doesn't seem like a huge loss to me.

Galz swaps his vote to e again. I switch back to e as Galz wagon seems stalled and I want to get an exile through. iguanaiguana votes e, reluctantly, for the same reasons.

Hammer by the IC.

Sorry for the wall of text.  Final wagon is Swowl, mathdude, Dylan32, Galzria, Glooble,  iguanaiguana, MiX, but that order is deceptive with so much unvoting and switching. Technically Awaclus started the wagon but he didn't end up on it, despite voting for e twice. Swowl was the third vote onto e and stayed there throughout all the moving around that happened. Galzria pretty clearly jumped on as an act of self-preservation, and iguana, MiX and myself were all just trying to get any exile through. Put all this together and it has the makings of a pretty townie wagon. Scummiest members are mathdude and Dylan imo. They both got onto e when there were multiple viable wagons, didn't give compelling reasons, and disappeared conveniently during the end-of-day scramble. Granted that last one might have been due to irl concerns, but still, that's where I want to exile today. Or pubby, could still do that. Or maybe Galz, iguana's Galz case has some merit.

vote: Dylan32 for now.

I'm not sure if it's intentional or not, but Glooble has been building a pretty nice tunnel on me this game. Not to the point of resisting voting elsewhere or anything, but from the opening RVS comment referring back to last game to basically every time they've mentioned more than one read at a time they've included me. This is literally just confirmation bias (if town)/intentional targeting (if scum). Like, you say that I and mathdude (maybe he did, but I don't remember and am only speaking for myself) got on at a time where there were multiple viable wagons. This is only sort of true. Galz and e were both at X-2, and nobody had claimed at that point yet. I didn't only say e was more likely to flip scum than galz...

After reading both e and galz, I just think e is more likely to flip scum than galz. Also, galz, as e admitted, had really good points countering the case.

Vote: e

L-1

--snip--

I thought e was scummier than galz at that point, and in having to choose between the two of them for the sake of consolidation, galz had the recent upper hand in their direct head-to-head conversations at that point, so e was the more logical choice. After they both claimed, I stuck by my decision for e and gave reasons for doing so. Was I wrong about e? Yup. Was exiling him better than Galz? TBD depending on Galz's alignment and whether they shoot scum or not. Was exiling e better than pushing a 3rd person (who statistically would have been more likely to be town than scum) up and getting another claim? Most likely. We got kind of lucky in that even if we did end up with two wagons on town, we managed to do that, get an informative flip, and NOT out our presumably stronger roles than a hider and a vig who generally won't shoot. So yeah, I'm sad I was wrong, but I stand by the process that got there.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: iguanaiguana on August 30, 2021, 09:00:17 pm
Ok, I read a lot of pubby's posts in games that he's played. Good news, I like pubby a lot better now! I guess because I read some of his posts where he wasn't just nonstop tunneling me. I've never seen pubby play like he's playing in this current game. Also, he's never been scum before (that I could find) outside of one beer themed bastard game. Notably, in the dwarf bastard game that just finished, he had really good reads (he kept saying that Galz/Didds/Awa was the team.. Galz/Didds was correct) but he also second guessed himself a lot and ended up voting outside of his correct guess fequently. I've also seen Pubby in several games get heated/emotional about things... which is not something I'm seeing here at all. In this game, he's been quite level headed and cool with his pronouncements.

Yeah, I really like

Vote: Pubby
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Galzria on August 30, 2021, 10:34:55 pm
Will catch up & respond in morning. I see there see a number of questions for me. Will get to all of them.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Swowl on August 31, 2021, 01:07:34 am
Vote: Iguana
Vote: Mathdude

Vote: Faust

why was I worth a vote?
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: iguanaiguana on August 31, 2021, 01:23:11 am
Vote: Iguana
Vote: Mathdude

Vote: Faust

why was I worth a vote?

Click this link (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=17587.msg723247#msg723247) to find out why I was voting for you.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: faust on August 31, 2021, 02:59:52 am
Vote: Iguana
Vote: Mathdude

Vote: Faust

why was I worth a vote?
You are pushing for that OMGUS really hard, aren't you?
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on August 31, 2021, 03:40:18 am
Ok, I read a lot of pubby's posts in games that he's played. Good news, I like pubby a lot better now! I guess because I read some of his posts where he wasn't just nonstop tunneling me. I've never seen pubby play like he's playing in this current game. Also, he's never been scum before (that I could find) outside of one beer themed bastard game. Notably, in the dwarf bastard game that just finished, he had really good reads (he kept saying that Galz/Didds/Awa was the team.. Galz/Didds was correct) but he also second guessed himself a lot and ended up voting outside of his correct guess fequently. I've also seen Pubby in several games get heated/emotional about things... which is not something I'm seeing here at all. In this game, he's been quite level headed and cool with his pronouncements.

Yeah, I really like

Vote: Pubby

The beer game (which had nothing to do with beer, god bless pubby's fakeclaim) sure felt like a RMM from my perspective, and I was his buddy that game. Can you go deeper into it and say if pubby looks similar or not?
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: jotheonah on August 31, 2021, 09:42:40 am

"So what do you think about this whole evil witches thing?" Dorothy asks the Scarecrow.

"Think? Oh, I'm afraid I don't. You see, I don't have a brain!"

"But how are you walking and talking?!"

"Oh I don't know," he says. "Some people without brains do an awful lot of talking. And voting for that matter."

As they chat, they come upon a metal man chopping wood. After introductions and the application of some oil, Dorothy asks the Tin Man a similar question.

"How do you feel about this whole business?"

"Feel? Oh I'm afraid I don't. You see, I don't have a heart!"



Vote Count 2.2

pubby (3): EFHW, WestCoastDidds, iguanaiguana
Dylan32 (2): faust, Glooble
WestCoastDidds (1): pubby
faust (1): Swowl

Not voting (4): Dylan32, Galzria, MiX, mathdude

With 11 alive, it takes 6 to exile. Day 2 ends Thursday, September 2 at 10:00 pm forum time. That's in about 60 hours.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: iguanaiguana on August 31, 2021, 01:05:59 pm
Ok, I read a lot of pubby's posts in games that he's played. Good news, I like pubby a lot better now! I guess because I read some of his posts where he wasn't just nonstop tunneling me. I've never seen pubby play like he's playing in this current game. Also, he's never been scum before (that I could find) outside of one beer themed bastard game. Notably, in the dwarf bastard game that just finished, he had really good reads (he kept saying that Galz/Didds/Awa was the team.. Galz/Didds was correct) but he also second guessed himself a lot and ended up voting outside of his correct guess fequently. I've also seen Pubby in several games get heated/emotional about things... which is not something I'm seeing here at all. In this game, he's been quite level headed and cool with his pronouncements.

Yeah, I really like

Vote: Pubby

The beer game (which had nothing to do with beer, god bless pubby's fakeclaim) sure felt like a RMM from my perspective, and I was his buddy that game. Can you go deeper into it and say if pubby looks similar or not?

Pubby played bud idea quite differently to how he is playing now. He made up a whimsical fakeclaim & at least early on he was pretty all over the place with votes/reads/etc. I am not saying that pubby here looks like pubby in bud idea. I will say that no scum wants to exactly replicate their previous scum meta.

What convinced me it's a good vote is the contrast between pubby in recent town games and pubby here. To me, that is more relevant than a 2 year old bastard game. I can give evidence for that if you want.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: iguanaiguana on August 31, 2021, 01:17:53 pm
Vote: Iguana
Vote: Mathdude

Vote: Faust

why was I worth a vote?

Actually, fine. You were worth a vote!

You were worth a vote because you spent all of D1 pushing a town exile. You were super active, but you never switched your vote all day long... despite claims coming out. You were quite defensive of Galz and that led to the e exile. If it was T v T, it honestly doesn't look that scummy. But if Galz is scum, you look like a partner.

And that is really the best read I can have on you because you haven't interacted with very many other players. You've commented that you didn't jump on WCD or Glooble. You've commented that you think the people who voted for you are scummy. You've commented that you think Galz is really towny for a claim that I think is super scummy.... and I think my reasons are better than your reasons.

What else have you even done?
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on August 31, 2021, 02:21:33 pm
Vote: Swowl

In other news, I'm back to my computer, so expect a VCA today or tomorrow.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Galzria on August 31, 2021, 02:37:01 pm
I feel like we want to direct Galzria's shot tonight, If we don't exile him.

The e wagon was bad.

Vote: Dylan

This post is scummy.

"The e wagon was bad" is a combination of "Well that sucked" and "I was on a different wagon than a town flip, so shame on all of you". They're both the style of thing more commonly expressed by scum than town.

The first part suggesting my shot be directed tonight is also scummy. But mostly because faust lays it out there to see if it'll start a conversation, but shows no signs of following up with the idea when nobody jumps on it.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Galzria on August 31, 2021, 02:37:20 pm
Galzria, why do I know if you should claim? You know your own action.

You shouldn't. But that normally won't stop you from stating an opinion on the matter.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Galzria on August 31, 2021, 02:37:35 pm
quick read on awa can't find crumbs - other please check.
Have thoughts, but am about to head out for the night, so it will have to wait until tomorrow.

It should be obvious what his target was.

I strongly disagree if you think he blocked me last night. That would've been a serious misplay by him.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Galzria on August 31, 2021, 02:37:52 pm
I'm having to get going again soon here before I do all the massive amount of work I want to do on this day. But before I get going, I just want to point out something that struck me as a really scummy post.

Galzria, can you claim?

I am the Tin Man.

Do you want me to claim my PR?

Most likely, yes.

I am Dorothyís protector by flavor provided.

I am a 2-shot Vig.

I donít shoot as Vig, so Iím essentially a VT, which is why my Exile is better than No Exile as it generates information at the very least while losing a PR that wonít be used.

That said, if I *did* shoot i couldíve helped resolv the e situation (if I understand correctly) if he didnít get exiled which is why I advocated going back to WCD here.

So here's a few things, some of them are speculative and not all of these speculations are the type that usually get much credence around here, but, they are compelling to me and so I need to share them.

1) Galz claims tin man. If I am modding this game, I am going to give at least 1 of tin man, scarecrow, or lion to scum as a fake claim. When Dorothy is already IC, you don't just give all three of tin man, scarecrow and lion to town. That would hurt scum, so you give them a strong fake claim of one of those. Therefore, since the lion has already flipped town, tin man is a suspicious claim. Hell, to the town!scarecrow, if there is one, this should be a hella suspicious claim.

2) Galz claims his flavor indicates he is 'the protector of dorothy,' but his role is not a protective role. Once again, hella suspicious. To me, it indicates that Galzria could be scum, and he was given a fake claim of "tin man, protector of Dorothy" with an actual protective ability for a fakeclaim.... THEN... he decided to claim 2-shot vig instead because 2-shot vig claim worked better for his scum plan. ALSO, we've already seen a protective town role flip in the jailkeeper flip. ALSO... I will go as far as to say that my role flavor text does make poetic sense. So I know that Joth writes flavor text that makes poetic sense for at least some roles. So for Galz's to be all funky like that "protector of Dorothy whose job is to shoot people"... hella suspicous.

3)Also... why the hell would the tin man be a 2-shot vig? Tin man don't got no gun!! Tin man off looking for his HEART. That's another thing that does not make poetic sense about Galz's claim.

4) Finally, as noted, Galz claiming 2-shot vig is just suspicious in general. Its a convenient claim. It gives him license to kill as scum without tracker or watcher seeing it. And tying it all in with his established no-shoot meta is convenient. Also, only one death last night.

Okay, that's all for now. Please consider it!!!

This is an incredibly bad and scummy argument, and it is beyond ridiculous that faust hasn't called iguana out over this.

Iguana is arguing that my claim is scummy based almost entirely on "guess the mod".

1) It in no way would hurt scum if all three were town (if all three are even in the game), because any individual player does not know the alignment of any other player (save MiX). And this line of thinking is exceptionally scummy if all three ARE in the game and ARE town, because if I end up being exiled here, which is entirely possible today, you've pre-lined up the Scarecrow to be unable to claim safely down the line if they are also town (which if you were scum, you would know).

2) I don't know what to tell you. I'm Dorothy's friend, companion and protector. Like you said, there's already been 1.5 flipped protective roles, and who knows if more exist? What I do know is that my role is Vig, and that no player counter claimed me and I didn't die last night (which if I was lying and there was a town Vig in the game, they should've shot me last night).

3) I do not have guns, no. I have a wood-axe. It's for more than cutting lumber.

4) The claim in no way gives me "license to kill" without being tracked or watched. If I'm lying scum, there's no way I'm a Vig. If I'm tracked to a player and that player doesn't die, THAT's "hella suspicious". And if I'm tracked to a player and they DO die... but there's only one death that night (or again on future nights), that's ALSO "hella suspicious". And a Watcher would be exactly the same. If I'm seen targeting somebody but that player doesn't die... well, you get the idea.

4a) There was only one kill last night. This is correct. I did not shoot. The last post on the topic of shooting that I made yesterday before the exile was this:

Well that history makes that claim stupidly convenient.

All in favor of just exiling Galzria?

Galzria, if you live today, you have to shoot. And you should probably not shoot e. If you're already saying you're not going to do that, then we should just exile you as you won't be able to confirm your role.

Itís only convenient now that I had to claim it publicly 🙄

And yes, I will shoot now that itís public - but there are many factors that can prevent my shot given my role is public knowledge to scum.

Honestly, best option is probably to Exile me.

If was going to draw a scum RB, then if I shot or not didn't matter. But there are far worse potential PR's scum could have. Bus Driver or Redirector both could've been disastrous. Given that my claim is 100% accurately known to scum, the last thing I wanted to give them was the power to manipulate another shot.

Shooting as a vig that is unknown to scum is already a generally bad idea. Shooting as a vig that scum knows about is foolish.

For the record, had I decided to shoot, this was the list of people I was looking at (in no particular order, because I didn't go back and do the full re-reads on each that I would've done if i was shooting. These were just the people I thought came off looking scummiest following the end of day yesterday):

math, iguana, Glooble, Efoo, pubby
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Galzria on August 31, 2021, 02:40:15 pm

Flavor texts are for those who are smart, courageous and kind.

Umm, there's definitely something here. ^^ (scarecrow, lion, tin man, but why?) That gives me hope that there is information in previous (and likely future) mod messages.

Also iguana seems to have found some possible inconsistencies in Galz's claim, which I believe I and one other person (may have been iguana) started mentioning D1. I also agree about the poetic-ness of my role and flavour, and it doesn't quite match for Galz.

Galz, what say you? Are you withholding some information from us?

I am not, no.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Galzria on August 31, 2021, 02:40:30 pm
Galz - what promted the "no MiX, I am not claiming" to the "Mix, do you want me to claim"?

Time, votes, and the way the thread was moving. Also didn't want to be an ass to MiX. He had asked once. I declined. He circled back and asked again. He knows that if I'm town I declined the first time for good reasons. But he doesn't know if I'm town. I know that he's trying his best to figure that out.

The first time he asked was right after e claimed. In the absence of any claims whatsoever I think my exile would've been the "safest" non-scum exile for town (that is, town would've lost the least in losing a PR that wouldn't get used). But with e's claim, I thought that exiling him, even if he flipped town, was better than exiling me at that point. The loss of his PR was almost as trivial as the loss of my PR would be, and at least with him there was a chance he could flip scum. Once that exile didn't materialize, the wagons shifted around some, and MiX asked again for my claim, it just seemed more prudent to abide. Even then, I only flavour claimed first, letting MiX decide if he wanted the whole thing or not.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: iguanaiguana on August 31, 2021, 03:08:47 pm
I'll retract most of my argument about Galz's claim being scummy. I think I overdid it.

1) I looked up about whether the tin man has any weapon and found he carries an axe. I did that in between posting my original argument and when Galz posted his thing.

2) His thing about how scarecrow/tin man/lion could all be town is true. I mean, as the mod, I'd still be very tempted to give one of those to scum for sake of balance but it's not a good reason to vote for any of them. I assent to that.

3) I'm starting to understand how claiming 2-shot vig is a tricky thing to do D1 as scum when you don't know what kind of investigative roles are around. So maybe 2-shot vig is not on its face the scummiest claim. That being said, I can't give Galz town points for the claim either. He has a long and storied history of making super bold fakeclaims as scum and then justifying them throughout the game until scum wins. It's basically his favorite thing to do.

I won't retract this part:

It is scummy to claim to be the tin man, protector of Dorothy, but then not claim a protective role. It is something that could happen if you are scum, and are given a protective role as a fakeclaim, then choose to claim a different sort of role instead on your own initiative without editing the flavor.

Extreme example: If Galz claimed "I am Groot, guardian of Dorothy" we should exile Galz. He just claimed to be Groot... who isn't in the wizard of oz. He probably altered the flavor of his role because he didn't like his fakeclaim. The purpose of this example is just to show that someone can make a bad flavor claim and that flavor can be the basis for choosing to exile someone.

Less extreme example: If Galz claimed... "I am Toto, the observer of Dorothy. My power is that I am a bodyguard." We...should exile Galz! His flavor would indicate he should have an investigative type of role... but his powers is not investigative. The powers do not match the flavor, a cue that Galz made an alteration to his mod-provided stuff. Town does not alter their claim... scum does.


So, my argument is just that. Galz's claim of powers does not match his claim of flavor, and it is scummy.

Finally, this is a bit scummy to me too:

-snip-
2) I don't know what to tell you. I'm Dorothy's friend, companion and protector.

Before, he was 'protector of Dorothy.' Now, he's 'friend, companion and protector." To me, Galz is trying to brush off here the one part of my argument that actually held water because he knows he can refute everything else I said. And he's also trying to muddy the fact that earlier in the game he claimed to be "protector of Dorothy."
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: iguanaiguana on August 31, 2021, 03:12:05 pm
Also also,

if Galz is some sort of passive role like Godfather or 1-shot BP scum, he totally can claim 2-shot vig and then just never shoot because he can pass the factional kill off to his scumbuddies and twiddle his thumbs at night. So it's not like 2-shot vig is exonerating in the least.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: faust on August 31, 2021, 03:17:47 pm
I feel like we want to direct Galzria's shot tonight, If we don't exile him.

The e wagon was bad.

Vote: Dylan

This post is scummy.

"The e wagon was bad" is a combination of "Well that sucked" and "I was on a different wagon than a town flip, so shame on all of you". They're both the style of thing more commonly expressed by scum than town.

The first part suggesting my shot be directed tonight is also scummy. But mostly because faust lays it out there to see if it'll start a conversation, but shows no signs of following up with the idea when nobody jumps on it.

No it isn't. I wanted to express that I think scum helped that wagon succeed, and went on to vote for the scummiest vote there.

Yeah I didn't follow up on it, but you know, I'm VLA, I don't have a lot of time, so I can't always follow through with everything that I would like. I had hoped that I could outsource some of that work, yes.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Swowl on August 31, 2021, 03:29:00 pm
Vote: Iguana
Vote: Mathdude

Vote: Faust

why was I worth a vote?

Click this link (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=17587.msg723247#msg723247) to find out why I was voting for you.

I don't follow.


Vote: Iguana
Vote: Mathdude

Vote: Faust

why was I worth a vote?

Actually, fine. You were worth a vote!

You were worth a vote because you spent all of D1 pushing a town exile. You were super active, but you never switched your vote all day long... despite claims coming out. You were quite defensive of Galz and that led to the e exile. If it was T v T, it honestly doesn't look that scummy. But if Galz is scum, you look like a partner.

And that is really the best read I can have on you because you haven't interacted with very many other players. You've commented that you didn't jump on WCD or Glooble. You've commented that you think the people who voted for you are scummy. You've commented that you think Galz is really towny for a claim that I think is super scummy.... and I think my reasons are better than your reasons.

What else have you even done?

We did not know it was a Town exile at the time, so first bold really doesn't make sense.
And we disagree with some shit yeah, but ultimately yeah second bold part I agree with I guess.

And what else have I even done? That is a list of things man.

I still do think your random attempt to wagon me at the end of the day was skummy. But hey at least a reason.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Swowl on August 31, 2021, 03:29:29 pm
Vote: Iguana
Vote: Mathdude

Vote: Faust

why was I worth a vote?
You are pushing for that OMGUS really hard, aren't you?

pushing for that reason really hard.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Swowl on August 31, 2021, 03:30:23 pm
Vote: Iguana
Vote: Mathdude

Vote: Faust

why was I worth a vote?
You are pushing for that OMGUS really hard, aren't you?

pushing for that reason really hard.

However I just realized you are VLA for a few days so....
UnVote in hopes that I can get a reason from you when you return.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Swowl on August 31, 2021, 03:31:54 pm
VCA done. My work is a little on fire so I will have to type it out later. But I end at

Vote: Mathdude
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on August 31, 2021, 03:32:49 pm
Also also,

if Galz is some sort of passive role like Godfather or 1-shot BP scum, he totally can claim 2-shot vig and then just never shoot because he can pass the factional kill off to his scumbuddies and twiddle his thumbs at night. So it's not like 2-shot vig is exonerating in the least.

Anyone can claim anything then, how is this important?

I claim a 3-shot Strongman Vigilante that roleblocks the target and also protects them from Trackers, Watchers and any actions taken by ninjas. But I won't use it.

VCA done. My work is a little on fire so I will have to type it out later. But I end at

Vote: Mathdude


Math is town.

Dylan is scum.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: iguanaiguana on August 31, 2021, 03:46:13 pm
Dylan is a vote I can believe in.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Glooble on August 31, 2021, 04:38:21 pm
With these short days, we gotta be careful not to let things stall out.

Just to recap where we are, here's the exiles that seem likely to go through to day. From where I'm standing. Maybe we can coalesce around one so we don't end up scrambling again.

pubby for comin in weird/ calling the scum team based on faulty logic/ generally acting out-of-character from his town self

Dylan and mathdude for scummy placement on the wagon (Dylan over dude for me because of earlier scummy comments)

Swowl for acting scummy day 1 - pushing a lot of people but leaving his vote parked on e. (I still feel like I'm missing something here)

Galz because of his claim? Or iguana has redacted some of that. But Galz was almost the exile yesterday and those reasons still apply.

Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: WestCoastDidds on August 31, 2021, 04:59:42 pm
Good gravyÖ going back to work on campus after 16ish months away is sooooo hard. The commute alone is killing me.

Apologies for not being more present. Glooble is right, with deadline just two days away we canít afford to stall.

Iím done being made at pubby for calling me a liar

Vote: Dylan

Mostly for his placement on the e wagon, but also because I trust faust.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Swowl on August 31, 2021, 05:00:51 pm
Also also,

if Galz is some sort of passive role like Godfather or 1-shot BP scum, he totally can claim 2-shot vig and then just never shoot because he can pass the factional kill off to his scumbuddies and twiddle his thumbs at night. So it's not like 2-shot vig is exonerating in the least.

Anyone can claim anything then, how is this important?

I claim a 3-shot Strongman Vigilante that roleblocks the target and also protects them from Trackers, Watchers and any actions taken by ninjas. But I won't use it.

VCA done. My work is a little on fire so I will have to type it out later. But I end at

Vote: Mathdude


Math is town.

Dylan is scum.

My bucket ended with 4 players and on of them was Dylan. So I am fine with Dylan. What am I missing the Math is Town bit though? Is that just cuz you think Dylan is "the skum within Math and Dylan"?

PPE2
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: iguanaiguana on August 31, 2021, 05:01:55 pm
Vote: Dylan
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: WestCoastDidds on August 31, 2021, 05:10:30 pm
Vote Count 2.WCD

pubby (1): EFHW,
Dylan32 (4): faust, Glooble, WestCoastDidds, iguanaiguana
WestCoastDidds (1): pubby
Mathdude (1): Swowl
Swowl (1): MiX

Not voting (3): Dylan32, Galzria, mathdude

6 to exile, deadline is Thursday at 10PM
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: pubby on August 31, 2021, 09:12:17 pm
I'm considering renaming GID to GFD. Iguana willing to dig through all of my old games seems like too much work for scum to do. He also appears the least connected.

Here's the connection I spot with faust:

I will accept no exile before I vote for either Didds or Glooble.
He staunchly defend Didds and Glooble on d1 when they had their wagons going. No reason stated, just that he town-read them. And wanting to no-exile is out of character for faust, who often believes in playing rational meta moves (no exile isn't beneficial on d1 as it gives so little information for d2. I reckon faust has said this himself before).

I'm really not trying to convince anyone to no exile. It's just that if the choice is exile someone I townread or no exile, then I will choose no exile in this game.

If you want to make sure we get an exile, you could of course join me on a scummy player rather than, like Galzria, leave a pointless vote on a wagon that is never going to succeed because the IC (rightly) opposes it.
[...next post...]
Vote: Galzria

I've talked myself into a rage vote.
So now he says Galzria isn't scummy, but then votes for him anyway within minutes.

Didds exile lame exile. Let's all go exile Galzria.
Again, defending Didds for some reason while pushing for a Galzria exile, despite saying Galzria wasn't even that scummy. He really did not want Didds exiled d1.

faust comes in critical of the e exile. Town points.
Hey look Glooble says faust is townie.

Vote: Dylan
Mostly for his placement on the e wagon, but also because I trust faust.
Hey look WCD says faust is trustworthy.

pubby, it's good to see a longer post from you, but I can't help but feel your energy is misdirected. At this point in the game, we need to find a single scum, going hard for pretty involved partner theories isn't going to do any good.

Plus, much of the argument you presented seems to hinge on Galz being town, but I didn't see you provide a reason for that.
This is disingenuous. Not every game plays the same - there is no "we must be doing X at Y time". Finding multiple scum is obviously better than finding a single one and you should not poo-poo my attempts to investigate.

And I don't know what type of gotcha you think the last part is. Glooble said the same - that my arguments are flawed due to "logic". Literally every post in this thread, and in other mafia games, involves assumption and speculation, and yet they can still be useful despite failing as mathematical proofs. You know this, so stop being unhelpful.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Galzria on August 31, 2021, 09:42:24 pm
Pubby, phone posting so wonít quote -

You misread Faustís second quote in your post. He wasnít saying that I wasnít scummy, he was saying that my vote sitting on Didds was a waste of time and space and that I was doing nothing to contribute towards an exile.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Galzria on August 31, 2021, 09:44:58 pm
Also, I have reasons to think faust is town despite finding certain posts heís made scummy.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on August 31, 2021, 09:46:37 pm
Also, I have reasons to think faust is town despite finding certain posts heís made scummy.

What are those reasons?

Just say they're role related if they are.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Galzria on August 31, 2021, 09:58:42 pm
Math, whatís your read on Glooble?
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Galzria on August 31, 2021, 09:59:16 pm
Also, I have reasons to think faust is town despite finding certain posts heís made scummy.

What are those reasons?

Just say they're role related if they are.

Yeah, not answering this, sorry.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Galzria on August 31, 2021, 10:00:11 pm
Glooble, can you give me a scum to chum?
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on August 31, 2021, 10:01:08 pm
Also, I have reasons to think faust is town despite finding certain posts heís made scummy.

What are those reasons?

Just say they're role related if they are.

Yeah, not answering this, sorry.

Vote: Galzria
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Galzria on August 31, 2021, 10:06:24 pm
Also, I have reasons to think faust is town despite finding certain posts heís made scummy.

What are those reasons?

Just say they're role related if they are.

Yeah, not answering this, sorry.

Vote: Galzria

Still not answering this. And you can go be all mad about it all you want. Exile me. Itís absolutely 1000000% better for me to not say.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on August 31, 2021, 10:08:57 pm
Also, I have reasons to think faust is town despite finding certain posts heís made scummy.

What are those reasons?

Just say they're role related if they are.

Yeah, not answering this, sorry.

Vote: Galzria

Still not answering this. And you can go be all mad about it all you want. Exile me. Itís absolutely 1000000% better for me to not say.

I don't give a shit about playing this game if people don't give reasons for doing things.

From my perspective you're never being solved if you're town so you're a liability.

Also I'm sheeping e.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on August 31, 2021, 10:13:59 pm
Vote: Swowl
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: WestCoastDidds on August 31, 2021, 10:48:06 pm
MiXy, what scummy about swowl?
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: EFHW on August 31, 2021, 11:34:16 pm
Shoot, I had a long post and didn't post it. It's on my computer, so I'll send it in the morning once I've nade sure I still agree with it all.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Glooble on September 01, 2021, 08:05:35 am
Glooble, can you give me a scum to chum?

sure:

scummiest right now - Dylan and pubby
mid-tier scummy- mathdude, Swowl, you
null- EFHW, Awaclus
slightly townie- Didds
townie- faust, iguana
IC- MiX
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on September 01, 2021, 08:38:32 am
Does anyone not think iguana is town?
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on September 01, 2021, 08:44:15 am
Glooble, are you suuuuure you shouldn't out your reason to vote pubby D1?

Because it's either extremely convoluted or scum already knows.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on September 01, 2021, 08:45:28 am
MiXy, what scummy about swowl?

Nothing. But his reactions to being voted are clearly based on hidden information.

Vote: faust
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Glooble on September 01, 2021, 08:53:55 am
Glooble, are you suuuuure you shouldn't out your reason to vote pubby D1?

Because it's either extremely convoluted or scum already knows.

There is literally no way for me to explain it without claiming, and at this point it's so thin as to be not worth considering. It's percentage points. It's the kind of reason that's okay when what you need is "slightly better than random" but completely irrelevant now that we have days worth of discussion and actual wagons.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on September 01, 2021, 08:55:10 am
Glooble, are you suuuuure you shouldn't out your reason to vote pubby D1?

Because it's either extremely convoluted or scum already knows.

There is literally no way for me to explain it without claiming, and at this point it's so thin as to be not worth considering. It's percentage points. It's the kind of reason that's okay when what you need is "slightly better than random" but completely irrelevant now that we have days worth of discussion and actual wagons.

Alright, I'll try not to talk about this until D3.

Glooble, can you give me a scum to chum?

sure:

scummiest right now - Dylan and pubby
mid-tier scummy- mathdude, Swowl, you
null- EFHW, Awaclus
slightly townie- Didds
townie- faust, iguana
IC- MiX

Can you talk about your strongest reads here?
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: EFHW on September 01, 2021, 08:58:12 am
Where did pubby go?

I don't see the towniness in mathdude. Maybe I don't read him well. His posts don't say much, so that makes me suspicious. Dylan is a good lurker exile. He hasn't done much scumhunting. I'd want to say the same of faust but I think he is vla? iguana is obv!tiwn. Galzria doesn't look great - weird case on Didds, odd claim. This is the first I remember Galz saying he doesn't shoot as vig. Does anyone remember that from other games? But I don't get scum vibes.

Didds said she was going to claim today. So I've been reserving judgment until I hear that. Is that still a plan?

Who have I forgotten? Swowl feels like Swowl. I always want to townread him. Glooble's been laying low somewhat today. pubby's case has probably derailed momentum on him and Didds if anything.

Staying on pubby. I can see a (murky) scum narrative there. Would vote Dylan to get an exile. I'm going to review my notes on Glooble, see if I still think the issues are issues.

PPE: Glooble, Awaclus is dead! Townpoints, there, I guess.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: EFHW on September 01, 2021, 08:59:36 am
quick read on awa can't find crumbs - other please check.
Have thoughts, but am about to head out for the night, so it will have to wait until tomorrow.

It should be obvious what his target was.

I strongly disagree if you think he blocked me last night. That would've been a serious misplay by him.

You don't think he would have targeted MiX?
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on September 01, 2021, 09:00:50 am
Where did pubby go?

I don't see the towniness in mathdude. Maybe I don't read him well. His posts don't say much, so that makes me suspicious. Dylan is a good lurker exile. He hasn't done much scumhunting. I'd want to say the same of faust but I think he is vla? iguana is obv!tiwn. Galzria doesn't look great - weird case on Didds, odd claim. This is the first I remember Galz saying he doesn't shoot as vig. Does anyone remember that from other games? But I don't get scum vibes.

Didds said she was going to claim today. So I've been reserving judgment until I hear that. Is that still a plan?

Who have I forgotten? Swowl feels like Swowl. I always want to townread him. Glooble's been laying low somewhat today. pubby's case has probably derailed momentum on him and Didds if anything.

Staying on pubby. I can see a (murky) scum narrative there. Would vote Dylan to get an exile. I'm going to review my notes on Glooble, see if I still think the issues are issues.

PPE: Glooble, Awaclus is dead! Townpoints, there, I guess.

Vote: EFHW

Ew, faust is unkillable today because of VLA. That kinda sucks, I wanted that to be a wagon.

Math's probably not town, but he sure is townier than Dylan. But I haven't actually paid much attention to either of them.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Glooble on September 01, 2021, 09:26:44 am

Can you talk about your strongest reads here?

I should reread because a lot of this is gut feelings.

So admittedly I don't know Dylan that well, we haven't played together a lot, but he's felt off to me all game in the few posts he's made, and with his scummy place on the wagon it just feels like a good exile to me. A lot of his posts have either been defending himself of trying to make something out of nothing. If I have time I'll ISO today.

pubby just came into day 2 very weird. His "I found the scum team" post doesn't feel towny to me. He lurked most of day 1 and wasn't on the wagon just by sheer not being around.

As I said before, I often scumread faust when he is in fact town, but the fact is scum!faust has a tendency to take charge and try and control the narrative more than town!faust does. But given that 1. faust is sort of VLA and 2. we have an IC, maybe that's NAI (since an IC will naturally sort of take over that leadership role by virtue of being someone everyone trusts. Even with all that though, I feel like scum!faust would be more of a presence, pushing town the way he wants us to go. That's the experience I've had playing against faust when he was scum, and that's why I feel like he's town now.

And yes, I forgot Awaclus was the nightkill. In my defense, he tends to post sporadically when he's alive.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: WestCoastDidds on September 01, 2021, 09:46:56 am
EFHW, Itís better for town if I claim later on, but if itís a question of exiling me, then I will.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: faust on September 01, 2021, 10:51:20 am
Vote: Iguana
Vote: Mathdude

Vote: Faust

why was I worth a vote?
You are pushing for that OMGUS really hard, aren't you?

pushing for that reason really hard.

However I just realized you are VLA for a few days so....
UnVote in hopes that I can get a reason from you when you return.
Don't get your hopes up.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: faust on September 01, 2021, 10:55:09 am
Galzria doesn't look great - weird case on Didds, odd claim. This is the first I remember Galz saying he doesn't shoot as vig. Does anyone remember that from other games? But I don't get scum vibes.
What is your actual read on Galzria? This all seems contradictory.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: iguanaiguana on September 01, 2021, 11:28:35 am
I remember fricken Galz saying he doesn't fricken shoot as big in fricken 2017.

And I am too scummy. I can be a scum. Everyone town reading me every game is boring.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: faust on September 01, 2021, 11:46:51 am
Does anyone not think iguana is town?
I'm not sure but his most recent post sure is towny (sorry iguana)
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: iguanaiguana on September 01, 2021, 12:00:36 pm
Does anyone not think iguana is town?
I'm not sure but his most recent post sure is towny (sorry iguana)

That's my scum plan  8)
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: iguanaiguana on September 01, 2021, 12:39:52 pm
Okay guys, It's time for Iguana's totally convoluted theory: GPD (Galzria, Pubby, Dylan32). (names arranged for maximum hilarious likeness to GID obvs  8)) 

First of all, this is some pretty hypothetical stuff coming right here.

IF the team is GPD, I'm in trouble tonight. It would mean all my reads are correct, and everyone town reads me. That would make me a huge liability for the scum team. Also, IF the team is GPD, MiX's reads are kind of lousy this game. Just sayin'. Right now MiX is not exactly projecting belief in GPD. Those two things would put me at a real risk of dying tonight. THEREFORE, I need to share some things with y'all now on the chance that I won't be able to do it later because I'll be dead.

So, if we exile Dylan today and he flips scum, PLEASE look at pubby and Galzria. Here's a few reasons why:

So I hadn't paid attention to the shorter deadlines, so realizing it's tomorrow, I'll Vote: Glooble for now. I don't have any strong scumreads yet, but there's actually been more good conversations that will be useful for scumhunting after a flip or two than I remember in recent RMM D1s (thanks to the relative lack of human/cylon/military/civilian/forwards-backwards-timeline oriented conversations lol).

Right now I think iguana is town, and Awaclus and faust are somewhat towny. I would be willing to exile basically any one of {Glooble, WCD, Swowl, e, EFHW}.

ppe 2

Dylan puts a couple towns on his town list, lists a bunch of towns as would exile, and totally ignores Pubby/Galz and a few others. Note that the only other people he ignores are MiX (obvs), Mathdude, and me. So the ommission of Galz and Pubby here is a pretty big chunk of the omitted players.

After reading both e and galz, I just think e is more likely to flip scum than galz. Also, galz, as e admitted, had really good points countering the case.

Vote: e

L-1
-snip-

Dylan comes back after some lurking and wants an e exile a lot more than a Galz exile. Note that several of his next posts argue pretty hard for the e exile... Is that something scum does in a T v T situation? (Again, I don't know for sure that Dylan is scum... this is my hypothetical contribution to D3 in case I die).

Vote Count 1.?.MiX

Galzria (6): faust, WestCoastDidds, EFHW, Awaclus, Glooble, iguanaiguana
2.71828.... (3): Swowl, mathdude, Dylan32
iguanaiguana (1): pubby
Glooble (1): Galzria

No exile (2): 2.71828...., MiX

This wagon is really really important!!!!!! faust, WCD and EFHW are the older votes on Galz. Then, after e's claim... a surge of new votes for Galz comes in. Awaclus is TOWN! Iguanaiguana is TOWN! Glooble is the only unknown here. In sum... I find it highly unlikely that both Galz and Glooble can be town... especially if Dylan flips scum. PLEASE don't forget this!!!

After Galz goes L-1, Dylan comes and says this:

Not necessarily intent right now, but I'm willing to hammer galz if I am not going to convince anyone to come back onto the e wagon.

If Dylan is scum, that's an indication that Galz is a partner if I've ever seen one. Dylan did not want the Galz exile... but didn't want to be off wagon if it was going to happen.

Iguana reads as town to me. His defense against Pubby's post sounded more like a townie's defense, and a lot of my thoughts (not all, but a lot) have been mirrored in things they've said before I manage to get on and catch up, so that seems townie to me. I agree that the GID theory is probably wrong on the whole, but I remember being in some games as town where I thought I had figured out the scum team really early and it can be hard to shake that thought, so I don't necessarily think Pubby is scum for trying to prove his case.

D2 now... and this really looks like a partner indication to pubby. 
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: iguanaiguana on September 01, 2021, 12:41:52 pm
Obviously... if we exile Dylan and he flips town... time to re-evaluate everything. That would be fun, actually.

Also, if we exile Dylan... scum flip... then we exile Galz or Pubby for a town flip... I would be looking at mathdude or Swowl for the last scums.

Okay, now I'm basically done for the day.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: EFHW on September 01, 2021, 12:55:37 pm
Galzria doesn't look great - weird case on Didds, odd claim. This is the first I remember Galz saying he doesn't shoot as vig. Does anyone remember that from other games? But I don't get scum vibes.
What is your actual read on Galzria? This all seems contradictory.

I'm saying that even though a couple things don't look great on the surface, I don't actually get a scum vibe from him. And I don't have a scum!narrative that fits his play.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: jotheonah on September 01, 2021, 01:21:30 pm

Dorothy, the Scarecrow, the Tin Man and Toto come to the woods.

"I think there's a Lion around here who can help us," says the Scarecrow.

"Oh didn't you hear? He was exiled by Glinda after the Munchkins suspected him of witchcraft! We'll just have to get by with the three of us," says the Tin Man.

"Woof woof!" says Toto.

"Alright, alright, the four of us," the Tin Man corrects.

--

Meanwhile, Glinda arrives in the Emerald City and stands before Oz, the great and powerful, a monstrous green face surrounded by light and flames.

"Someone has murdered my doorman!" the Wizard rages. "We must discover who it is! Look under every rock and behind every curtain!"

"Including this curtain here?" asks Glinda.

"NO!" Oz bellows. "Pay no attention to that curtain!"



Vote Count 2.3

Dylan32 (4): faust, Glooble, WestCoastDidds, iguanaiguana (L-2)
pubby (1): EFHW
WestCoastDidds (1): pubby
EFHW (1): MiX
Mathdude (1): Swowl

Not voting (4): Dylan32, Galzria, mathdude

With 11 alive, it takes 6 to exile. Day 2 ends Thursday, September 2 at 10:00 pm forum time. That's in about 33 hours.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Dylan32 on September 01, 2021, 01:52:41 pm
Sorry, work has had me busier this week than I expected. I will just say, Iíve been scum or not town quite a bit recently. Compare this game to any of those and see if itís the same. If you want to exile me for lurking, I literally canít argue with the logicÖ but if youíre trying to say Iím playing like scum, Iím better at faking scum hunting than actually doing it, hence my much, much better record in scum games than town games. Iíll try to spend some time reading tonight though, because I definitely havenít been present enough.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Galzria on September 01, 2021, 02:03:00 pm
vote: Glooble.

My vote isnít doing anything not being placed, and I think Glooble is scum. Will post reasons later today.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Galzria on September 01, 2021, 02:05:43 pm
Also want to take a look at EFHW, who it feels like nobody is aware is even playing (donít mean anything by that Efoo - just that nobody seems to have any interactions with you or reads on you).
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Galzria on September 01, 2021, 02:07:29 pm
Does anyone not think iguana is town?

Iím very much not convinced iguana is town - but I may be the only one.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: EFHW on September 01, 2021, 02:14:03 pm
Glooble Day 1:

I've looked back at my notes on Glooble and I see a lot of defensiveness and a couple things that are just odd. The first odd thing was "reasons" on pubby. This probably cemented him in a defensive position because so many people questioned it. Here is one of the times he refused:

The reasons were admittedly very flimsy, but its not pro-town to keep pushing me for them.

*breathe in breathe out*

fine. not going to gain anything out of this anyways.

to your point, whatever reasons you could possibly have cannot possibly carry any weight, so I will stop.

Wanna make it clear I am stopping NOT because it is not pro town to push you one this... completely 100% disagree with that.
I find it very odd that you would feel the need to say "I have reasons I don't want to share" and then down the road be like "oh they are so flimsy". I feel like you would normally open with "I have a gut read" or just a simply answer at first saying the reasons were a stretch or something.

I think it's pretty obvious that if a person says they have reasons and there is no extant public information to possibly explain those reasons, then the reasons must be based on information that is not public, and therefore to continue asking for them is rolefishing.

He keeps saying he'd rather not share his reasons, but then he does a 180 at 308 and confesses he doesn't actually remember what the reasons were. That doesn't make sense to me. Did he not remember all along and tried to fake it? After all that pressure and deciding not to talk, and emphatically refusing, which must have taken some review of reasons, then he doesn't remember? So there's a real inconsistency there that could reflect trying to participate as scum.

The other odd thing is his comment that he doesn't keep his own role in mind when he is considering things like mass claims (emphasis added):

One might counter this by saying "well town should just answer without regard for their role". Which is saying, town should be disingenuous and do the thing that scum is also trying to do. This causes town to behave in a scum-like manner and thus muddies the water for scumhunting.

I don't personally think my opinion on a particular strategy is affected in anyway whatsoever by my current role. I would always think about it in the context of any roles that could theoretically be in the game, and I would expect the same of any town player. I don't see how that's disingenuous.
Seems strange not to take knowledge into account. You could have a role that says "if you target the Tracker, town wins". Surely that would influence your opinion on claiming. That is a ridiculously extreme example, but any role has a preference on knowing/not knowing roles to a lesser extent. If you don't take into account the knowledge that you have then you're not playing optimally.

I disagree. Even if I know that my own role benefits from or suffers from a mass claim, I don't know how scum are going to benefit or how that info might hurt other townies. I think considering your own role without thinking about what other roles might be in the game isn't playing optimally.

But whatever. We play the game differently, that's fine. You've convinced me that your objection wasn't alignment-indicative.

I feel like he went to far in that first statement, so he has to back up from it later, without acknowledging that he is changing to a very different position from where he started. So another awkwardness in posting leading to an inconsistency.

In 251, he says he is never useful Day 1 because he can't form reads. This is a pet peeve of mine. We're all useless that way. Is he asking for a Day 1 pass? Because then we all should get one. Probably NAI, except that it does contribute to the overall feeling of defensiveness.

He doesn't really participate in the EOD discussion, like most of us unfortunately (myself included, sorry!).

I agreed with him that Dylan's accusation of iguana having more information than he should was unwarranted. I also agreed that there was nothing preventing Didds from posting even if the massclaim argument went on for too long.

I'll look at Day 2 now.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Glooble on September 01, 2021, 02:19:39 pm
Ok, I admit it.

I no longer have any idea why I said the word reasons.

That fact is, I wasn't thinking that much about it. Which is another thing that's townie, because as scum I consider my words a lot more carefully.

EFHW, what I said was I have no idea why I said the word reasons. That is emphatically not the same thing as not remembering what my reasons were. I meant I don't know what my reasons were for saying "because reasons" rather than just saying nothing.

I never said I didn't remember my reasons.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Glooble on September 01, 2021, 02:20:39 pm
Also, the fact that you said "in 308" rather than quoting that post just now is kinda scummy. Because if you'd quoted it I think it would be obvious that it wasn't an inconsistency. So framing it that way is scummy.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Glooble on September 01, 2021, 02:22:01 pm
As for your second "inconsistency" that's also simply not true. The first statement was about me, the second was about faust. There's no contradiction there.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: EFHW on September 01, 2021, 02:33:10 pm
Here's the quote. I read this as you didn't remember why you said reasons as in you didn't remember your reasons. You can see why that would give me pause.

Ok, I admit it.

I no longer have any idea why I said the word reasons.

That fact is, I wasn't thinking that much about it. Which is another thing that's townie, because as scum I consider my words a lot more carefully.

I'm glad you've explained this, because I got really confused just now when I saw that you do remember the reasons!
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: EFHW on September 01, 2021, 02:40:08 pm
As for your second "inconsistency" that's also simply not true. The first statement was about me, the second was about faust. There's no contradiction there.

I still feel there is a contradiction. You said "I don't personally think my opinion on a particular strategy is affected in anyway whatsoever by my current role." Then in talking to faust you restated your position as "I think considering your own role without thinking about what other roles might be in the game isn't playing optimally."

These are not the same things. You changed the argument from "don't think about your own role" to "if you do think about your own role, make sure you think about other people's roles, too." faust had been arguing against the categorical statement you made first. He never said consider only your own role.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Glooble on September 01, 2021, 02:58:28 pm
I think in the context of the discussion we were having its basically the same thing, but also why would that sort of inconsistency make me more likely to be scum? Scum are going to be inconsistent when talking about the specific game they are playing because they are having to keep track of a lie, but when talking in a more general sense I expect scum to be more consistent, since people watch their words more carefully as scum.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Glooble on September 01, 2021, 04:02:11 pm
I re-read Dylan and I'm less sure he's the right exile for today. Still think he could be scum, but I think I like pubby better.

vote: pubby

MiX, why are you on EFHW again?
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on September 01, 2021, 04:09:04 pm
Also want to take a look at EFHW, who it feels like nobody is aware is even playing (donít mean anything by that Efoo - just that nobody seems to have any interactions with you or reads on you).

Please do! I had the same feeling.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on September 01, 2021, 04:13:30 pm
As for your second "inconsistency" that's also simply not true. The first statement was about me, the second was about faust. There's no contradiction there.

I still feel there is a contradiction. You said "I don't personally think my opinion on a particular strategy is affected in anyway whatsoever by my current role." Then in talking to faust you restated your position as "I think considering your own role without thinking about what other roles might be in the game isn't playing optimally."

These are not the same things. You changed the argument from "don't think about your own role" to "if you do think about your own role, make sure you think about other people's roles, too." faust had been arguing against the categorical statement you made first. He never said consider only your own role.

This is incredibly consistent if you're not trying to use it to shade Glooble. One says what Glooble does, the other says what Glooble thinks.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: EFHW on September 01, 2021, 06:58:37 pm
I think in the context of the discussion we were having its basically the same thing, but also why would that sort of inconsistency make me more likely to be scum? Scum are going to be inconsistent when talking about the specific game they are playing because they are having to keep track of a lie, but when talking in a more general sense I expect scum to be more consistent, since people watch their words more carefully as scum.

The pattern did depend on you being off-balance in posting as scum. So I will abandon the case. But I do think you changed your argument there without acknowledging it.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: EFHW on September 01, 2021, 06:59:22 pm
As for your second "inconsistency" that's also simply not true. The first statement was about me, the second was about faust. There's no contradiction there.

I still feel there is a contradiction. You said "I don't personally think my opinion on a particular strategy is affected in anyway whatsoever by my current role." Then in talking to faust you restated your position as "I think considering your own role without thinking about what other roles might be in the game isn't playing optimally."

These are not the same things. You changed the argument from "don't think about your own role" to "if you do think about your own role, make sure you think about other people's roles, too." faust had been arguing against the categorical statement you made first. He never said consider only your own role.

This is incredibly consistent if you're not trying to use it to shade Glooble. One says what Glooble does, the other says what Glooble thinks.
I disagree, but it doesn't matter much right now.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on September 01, 2021, 07:00:54 pm

One might counter this by saying "well town should just answer without regard for their role". Which is saying, town should be disingenuous and do the thing that scum is also trying to do. This causes town to behave in a scum-like manner and thus muddies the water for scumhunting.

I don't personally think my opinion on a particular strategy is affected in anyway whatsoever by my current role. I would always think about it in the context of any roles that could theoretically be in the game, and I would expect the same of any town player. I don't see how that's disingenuous.
Seems strange not to take knowledge into account. You could have a role that says "if you target the Tracker, town wins". Surely that would influence your opinion on claiming. That is a ridiculously extreme example, but any role has a preference on knowing/not knowing roles to a lesser extent. If you don't take into account the knowledge that you have then you're not playing optimally.

I disagree. Even if I know that my own role benefits from or suffers from a mass claim, I don't know how scum are going to benefit or how that info might hurt other townies. I think considering your own role without thinking about what other roles might be in the game isn't playing optimally.

But whatever. We play the game differently, that's fine. You've convinced me that your objection wasn't alignment-indicative.

Does this help clarify that Glooble's stance didn't change, EFHW?
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: EFHW on September 01, 2021, 07:08:05 pm
Also want to take a look at EFHW, who it feels like nobody is aware is even playing (donít mean anything by that Efoo - just that nobody seems to have any interactions with you or reads on you).

I've noticed that, too. Glooble did the whole history of votes for e and left out mine. But unobtrusiveness can come in handy. More so as scum, but still.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: iguanaiguana on September 01, 2021, 08:06:06 pm
I came into D2 with EFHW as my top scum read, then pubby did his whole thing, and EFHW's response to it made a lot of sense to me and wasn't what I was expecting scum EFHW would say.

So things changed.

I'd say she'd be someone to look at for sure if Dylan and/or pubby flip town
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: EFHW on September 01, 2021, 08:10:38 pm

Does this help clarify that Glooble's stance didn't change, EFHW?

No. He said not affected in any way whatsoever by his current role. That's an extreme statement. faust challenges him on it, and his answer to faust suggests he thinks faust was saying only think about your own role, which of course faust wasn't saying. It's at that point he changes his position to match what faust was actually already saying, but as if faust had been saying something else.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: EFHW on September 01, 2021, 08:18:10 pm
MiX, did you ever say what you thought was towny about mathdude?
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: WestCoastDidds on September 01, 2021, 08:40:00 pm
It seems that Glooble wasnít super careful with his language choices, but I am following this train of thought. Generally, I think that kid of nonchalance from him isnít scummy in the way it might be for other folks.

EFHW generated quite a bit of content about it, though, which has increased her level of engagement, but Iím not sure how quality the enagement has been. I do think sheís asking good questions,,though.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: WestCoastDidds on September 01, 2021, 08:41:44 pm
Deadline is tomorrowÖ Iím surprised we havenít seen more of pubby, mathdude, or Dylan.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Glooble on September 01, 2021, 08:58:01 pm
Thursday is just not a good deadline day for me. It's the one day a week I go into the office and then I have improv class which is usually starting right around deadline.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Dylan32 on September 01, 2021, 09:44:26 pm
Ok, I haven't really said much, so I'm just going to go through all of D2 and respond to posts as I go without worrying about if the conversation has already moved past it, and hopefully it will help me actually organize my thoughts a bit.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Dylan32 on September 01, 2021, 09:48:24 pm
I do not think we should Exile WCD today.

What are your thoughts on iguana?

I could talk iguana. Or Glooble. Either could be a good place to start today.

Whatís your 411 on iguana?

Not sure if "I could talk iguana" means I could/would vote there, or just they are a good person to talk about first. If it's the latter, this really just dodged and turned around mathdude's question asking specifically for Galz's thoughts back to mathdude.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Dylan32 on September 01, 2021, 09:49:05 pm
I feel like we want to direct Galzria's shot tonight, If we don't exile him.

The e wagon was bad.

Vote: Dylan

This post is scummy coming from faust.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Dylan32 on September 01, 2021, 09:53:08 pm
Good morning!

Scum team is Glooble, Iguana, Didds. Didds is the most obvious one.

There was some panic in the scum team early on with wagons around Glooble and Didds. They rallied to save each other, then hopped on the first alternative wagons. This is why all three voted late.

Vote: Didds

I doubt I'll be active much tomorrow BTW.

I find pubbyís claim that both Glooble and I are scum completely absurd. The odds of having two scum wagons that deep that early in the game would have to be astronomical. Absent that, that this was the first post and then outta here without any discussion of the night actions is annoying at best and anti town at worst.

As to the reasons pubby provided for his vote. PanicÖuhm no. I didnít feel panic. Perhaps he meant scrambling. But again, noÖ I wasnít scrambling. I was torn because I didít want to vote for e because I thought he was town. So, the question I wanted to know the answer to was it better to exile town or no exile. In the end it didnít matter, Iguana showed up and MiX hammered. If I was scum, why leave it to chance? Why not hammer? But the even better argument would be if the three of us were working together why would we collide to oust the hider instead of the vig? The big is far more dangerous to scum. That would have been the smarter play.

Vote Count 1.MiX
Galzria (5): faust, 2.71828...., WestCoastDidds, EFHW, Awaclus
2.71828.... (4): Swowl, Glooble, mathdude, Dylan32
WestCoastDidds (2): MiX, Galzria
Swowl (1): iguanaiguana
iguanaiguana (1): pubby
Not voting (0):

7 to exile. 3 hours to deadline.

What's the plan?

I can see a narrative for Glooble and iguana working in concert. But all three of us? That is in no way clear to me.  Iguana was pretty much voting for me all day yesterday, which also doesnít seem scum partnery.

Iguana definitely looked scrambled D1, but never having played with him before, I wanted to see it through the day. No point in starting wagons on 2 of them though... one at a time for now.

Vote: Didds

But this is even more interesting to me! Math is saying ďyes! Thatís it! Iguana looked like he was scrambling so Iíll vote for WCD!Ē How the heck does that follow. Math isnít scum, but that logic is severely lacking.


Didds says the logic is severely lacking, but mathdude clearly explained the logic of not wanting to start two different wagons when the theory says Didds and iguana are partners anyway.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Dylan32 on September 01, 2021, 10:00:35 pm
I'm having to get going again soon here before I do all the massive amount of work I want to do on this day. But before I get going, I just want to point out something that struck me as a really scummy post.

Galzria, can you claim?

I am the Tin Man.

Do you want me to claim my PR?

Most likely, yes.

I am Dorothyís protector by flavor provided.

I am a 2-shot Vig.

I donít shoot as Vig, so Iím essentially a VT, which is why my Exile is better than No Exile as it generates information at the very least while losing a PR that wonít be used.

That said, if I *did* shoot i couldíve helped resolv the e situation (if I understand correctly) if he didnít get exiled which is why I advocated going back to WCD here.

So here's a few things, some of them are speculative and not all of these speculations are the type that usually get much credence around here, but, they are compelling to me and so I need to share them.

1) Galz claims tin man. If I am modding this game, I am going to give at least 1 of tin man, scarecrow, or lion to scum as a fake claim. When Dorothy is already IC, you don't just give all three of tin man, scarecrow and lion to town. That would hurt scum, so you give them a strong fake claim of one of those. Therefore, since the lion has already flipped town, tin man is a suspicious claim. Hell, to the town!scarecrow, if there is one, this should be a hella suspicious claim.

2) Galz claims his flavor indicates he is 'the protector of dorothy,' but his role is not a protective role. Once again, hella suspicious. To me, it indicates that Galzria could be scum, and he was given a fake claim of "tin man, protector of Dorothy" with an actual protective ability for a fakeclaim.... THEN... he decided to claim 2-shot vig instead because 2-shot vig claim worked better for his scum plan. ALSO, we've already seen a protective town role flip in the jailkeeper flip. ALSO... I will go as far as to say that my role flavor text does make poetic sense. So I know that Joth writes flavor text that makes poetic sense for at least some roles. So for Galz's to be all funky like that "protector of Dorothy whose job is to shoot people"... hella suspicous.

3)Also... why the hell would the tin man be a 2-shot vig? Tin man don't got no gun!! Tin man off looking for his HEART. That's another thing that does not make poetic sense about Galz's claim.

4) Finally, as noted, Galz claiming 2-shot vig is just suspicious in general. Its a convenient claim. It gives him license to kill as scum without tracker or watcher seeing it. And tying it all in with his established no-shoot meta is convenient. Also, only one death last night.

Okay, that's all for now. Please consider it!!!

I don't really like basing a case so much on speculation about flavor writing. Like, it might not be wrong, but there's not much we can do with it since you aren't supposed to directly quote from your QT. I vaguely remember a later post where Galz describes it slightly differently and iguana calls it out, I think, which is rough because we aren't supposed to directly quote from any QTs, so I wouldn't really expect someone to use the exact same wording repeatedly when describing their flavor from post to post. If that didn't actually happen, I retract this point, but I think it did.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Dylan32 on September 01, 2021, 10:04:56 pm
Short break, then I'll be back and continue.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on September 01, 2021, 10:42:55 pm
MiX, did you ever say what you thought was towny about mathdude?

No.

I'm the last person you should be asking questions towards.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on September 01, 2021, 11:01:29 pm
I'm clearly not going to finish my VCA today. I might not finish it in time for EoD.

I will be here for deadline, but probably in my sleep-fu state that won't actually be helpful.


Vote Count 2.MiX

Dylan32 (3): faust, WestCoastDidds, iguanaiguana (L-2)
pubby (2): EFHW, Glooble,
WestCoastDidds (1): pubby
EFHW (1): MiX
Mathdude (1): Swowl
Glooble (1): Galzria

Not voting (2): Dylan32, mathdude


I would love reasons for everyone to be voting where they're voting, regardless if they've said it before. If you have, you can simply write a tl;dr and link the post that has the full explanation.

I'll start: I think no one has looked at EFHW, and I can't find scum, so it would make sense that I haven't looked at scum yet, which would make EFHW scum. Also they can easily flip today if town is truly scumreading them.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Dylan32 on September 01, 2021, 11:39:38 pm
Ok, I read a lot of pubby's posts in games that he's played. Good news, I like pubby a lot better now! I guess because I read some of his posts where he wasn't just nonstop tunneling me. I've never seen pubby play like he's playing in this current game. Also, he's never been scum before (that I could find) outside of one beer themed bastard game. Notably, in the dwarf bastard game that just finished, he had really good reads (he kept saying that Galz/Didds/Awa was the team.. Galz/Didds was correct) but he also second guessed himself a lot and ended up voting outside of his correct guess fequently. I've also seen Pubby in several games get heated/emotional about things... which is not something I'm seeing here at all. In this game, he's been quite level headed and cool with his pronouncements.

Yeah, I really like

Vote: Pubby

Is it possible a game with a 2/3 team call made him more confident in his reads and less likely to stray outside of it with his votes?
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Dylan32 on September 02, 2021, 12:17:50 am
I feel like we want to direct Galzria's shot tonight, If we don't exile him.

The e wagon was bad.

Vote: Dylan

This post is scummy.

"The e wagon was bad" is a combination of "Well that sucked" and "I was on a different wagon than a town flip, so shame on all of you". They're both the style of thing more commonly expressed by scum than town.

The first part suggesting my shot be directed tonight is also scummy. But mostly because faust lays it out there to see if it'll start a conversation, but shows no signs of following up with the idea when nobody jumps on it.

Oh, yeah, I agree. The directing the shot was what stuck out to me.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Dylan32 on September 02, 2021, 12:19:42 am
I'm having to get going again soon here before I do all the massive amount of work I want to do on this day. But before I get going, I just want to point out something that struck me as a really scummy post.

Galzria, can you claim?

I am the Tin Man.

Do you want me to claim my PR?

Most likely, yes.

I am Dorothyís protector by flavor provided.

I am a 2-shot Vig.

I donít shoot as Vig, so Iím essentially a VT, which is why my Exile is better than No Exile as it generates information at the very least while losing a PR that wonít be used.

That said, if I *did* shoot i couldíve helped resolv the e situation (if I understand correctly) if he didnít get exiled which is why I advocated going back to WCD here.

So here's a few things, some of them are speculative and not all of these speculations are the type that usually get much credence around here, but, they are compelling to me and so I need to share them.

1) Galz claims tin man. If I am modding this game, I am going to give at least 1 of tin man, scarecrow, or lion to scum as a fake claim. When Dorothy is already IC, you don't just give all three of tin man, scarecrow and lion to town. That would hurt scum, so you give them a strong fake claim of one of those. Therefore, since the lion has already flipped town, tin man is a suspicious claim. Hell, to the town!scarecrow, if there is one, this should be a hella suspicious claim.

2) Galz claims his flavor indicates he is 'the protector of dorothy,' but his role is not a protective role. Once again, hella suspicious. To me, it indicates that Galzria could be scum, and he was given a fake claim of "tin man, protector of Dorothy" with an actual protective ability for a fakeclaim.... THEN... he decided to claim 2-shot vig instead because 2-shot vig claim worked better for his scum plan. ALSO, we've already seen a protective town role flip in the jailkeeper flip. ALSO... I will go as far as to say that my role flavor text does make poetic sense. So I know that Joth writes flavor text that makes poetic sense for at least some roles. So for Galz's to be all funky like that "protector of Dorothy whose job is to shoot people"... hella suspicous.

3)Also... why the hell would the tin man be a 2-shot vig? Tin man don't got no gun!! Tin man off looking for his HEART. That's another thing that does not make poetic sense about Galz's claim.

4) Finally, as noted, Galz claiming 2-shot vig is just suspicious in general. Its a convenient claim. It gives him license to kill as scum without tracker or watcher seeing it. And tying it all in with his established no-shoot meta is convenient. Also, only one death last night.

Okay, that's all for now. Please consider it!!!

This is an incredibly bad and scummy argument, and it is beyond ridiculous that faust hasn't called iguana out over this.

Iguana is arguing that my claim is scummy based almost entirely on "guess the mod".

1) It in no way would hurt scum if all three were town (if all three are even in the game), because any individual player does not know the alignment of any other player (save MiX). And this line of thinking is exceptionally scummy if all three ARE in the game and ARE town, because if I end up being exiled here, which is entirely possible today, you've pre-lined up the Scarecrow to be unable to claim safely down the line if they are also town (which if you were scum, you would know).

2) I don't know what to tell you. I'm Dorothy's friend, companion and protector. Like you said, there's already been 1.5 flipped protective roles, and who knows if more exist? What I do know is that my role is Vig, and that no player counter claimed me and I didn't die last night (which if I was lying and there was a town Vig in the game, they should've shot me last night).

3) I do not have guns, no. I have a wood-axe. It's for more than cutting lumber.

4) The claim in no way gives me "license to kill" without being tracked or watched. If I'm lying scum, there's no way I'm a Vig. If I'm tracked to a player and that player doesn't die, THAT's "hella suspicious". And if I'm tracked to a player and they DO die... but there's only one death that night (or again on future nights), that's ALSO "hella suspicious". And a Watcher would be exactly the same. If I'm seen targeting somebody but that player doesn't die... well, you get the idea.

4a) There was only one kill last night. This is correct. I did not shoot. The last post on the topic of shooting that I made yesterday before the exile was this:

Well that history makes that claim stupidly convenient.

All in favor of just exiling Galzria?

Galzria, if you live today, you have to shoot. And you should probably not shoot e. If you're already saying you're not going to do that, then we should just exile you as you won't be able to confirm your role.

Itís only convenient now that I had to claim it publicly 🙄

And yes, I will shoot now that itís public - but there are many factors that can prevent my shot given my role is public knowledge to scum.

Honestly, best option is probably to Exile me.

If was going to draw a scum RB, then if I shot or not didn't matter. But there are far worse potential PR's scum could have. Bus Driver or Redirector both could've been disastrous. Given that my claim is 100% accurately known to scum, the last thing I wanted to give them was the power to manipulate another shot.

Shooting as a vig that is unknown to scum is already a generally bad idea. Shooting as a vig that scum knows about is foolish.

For the record, had I decided to shoot, this was the list of people I was looking at (in no particular order, because I didn't go back and do the full re-reads on each that I would've done if i was shooting. These were just the people I thought came off looking scummiest following the end of day yesterday):

math, iguana, Glooble, Efoo, pubby

Hadn't really thought the iguana flavor case was scummy, but this does make sense how that would come from scum instead of town.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Dylan32 on September 02, 2021, 12:26:20 am
I'll retract most of my argument about Galz's claim being scummy. I think I overdid it.

1) I looked up about whether the tin man has any weapon and found he carries an axe. I did that in between posting my original argument and when Galz posted his thing.

2) His thing about how scarecrow/tin man/lion could all be town is true. I mean, as the mod, I'd still be very tempted to give one of those to scum for sake of balance but it's not a good reason to vote for any of them. I assent to that.

3) I'm starting to understand how claiming 2-shot vig is a tricky thing to do D1 as scum when you don't know what kind of investigative roles are around. So maybe 2-shot vig is not on its face the scummiest claim. That being said, I can't give Galz town points for the claim either. He has a long and storied history of making super bold fakeclaims as scum and then justifying them throughout the game until scum wins. It's basically his favorite thing to do.

I won't retract this part:

It is scummy to claim to be the tin man, protector of Dorothy, but then not claim a protective role. It is something that could happen if you are scum, and are given a protective role as a fakeclaim, then choose to claim a different sort of role instead on your own initiative without editing the flavor.

Extreme example: If Galz claimed "I am Groot, guardian of Dorothy" we should exile Galz. He just claimed to be Groot... who isn't in the wizard of oz. He probably altered the flavor of his role because he didn't like his fakeclaim. The purpose of this example is just to show that someone can make a bad flavor claim and that flavor can be the basis for choosing to exile someone.

Less extreme example: If Galz claimed... "I am Toto, the observer of Dorothy. My power is that I am a bodyguard." We...should exile Galz! His flavor would indicate he should have an investigative type of role... but his powers is not investigative. The powers do not match the flavor, a cue that Galz made an alteration to his mod-provided stuff. Town does not alter their claim... scum does.


So, my argument is just that. Galz's claim of powers does not match his claim of flavor, and it is scummy.

Finally, this is a bit scummy to me too:

-snip-
2) I don't know what to tell you. I'm Dorothy's friend, companion and protector.

Before, he was 'protector of Dorothy.' Now, he's 'friend, companion and protector." To me, Galz is trying to brush off here the one part of my argument that actually held water because he knows he can refute everything else I said. And he's also trying to muddy the fact that earlier in the game he claimed to be "protector of Dorothy."

To argue by way of example, the Secret Service snipers on top of the white house are the President's protectors and their job is absolutely to shoot threats to the President, just to give one real-world case, so an offensive/neutralize the threat "protector" is not at all absurd or a contradiction like you seem to think it is.

This is also where I think the not directly quoting the QT comes into play. Idk if that is what Galz was doing, and you might not actually be wrong, but I just think you are reading a lot into flavor that just isn't sound.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Dylan32 on September 02, 2021, 12:27:48 am
Also also,

if Galz is some sort of passive role like Godfather or 1-shot BP scum, he totally can claim 2-shot vig and then just never shoot because he can pass the factional kill off to his scumbuddies and twiddle his thumbs at night. So it's not like 2-shot vig is exonerating in the least.

Anyone can claim anything then, how is this important?

I claim a 3-shot Strongman Vigilante that roleblocks the target and also protects them from Trackers, Watchers and any actions taken by ninjas. But I won't use it.

VCA done. My work is a little on fire so I will have to type it out later. But I end at

Vote: Mathdude


Math is town.

Dylan is scum.

MiX is reading me incorrectly. He must be town. :p
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Dylan32 on September 02, 2021, 12:49:43 am
Good gravyÖ going back to work on campus after 16ish months away is sooooo hard. The commute alone is killing me.

Apologies for not being more present. Glooble is right, with deadline just two days away we canít afford to stall.

Iím done being made at pubby for calling me a liar

Vote: Dylan

Mostly for his placement on the e wagon, but also because I trust faust.

People keep saying my placement on the wagon was scummy, but no matter which of the two wagons I joined would have been X-1 (iirc). So if Galz is scum, then sure, I can agree from a neutral position it would look scummy, but like I've said before, A) I had a slightly bigger scumread on e and B) losing a hider is nowhere near as bad as losing a town vig if we were wrong (neither would be too bad compared to forcing a 3rd party, so see A again).
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: faust on September 02, 2021, 02:11:45 am
Not sure how much I like my Dylan vote right now. But my alternative would be Galzria, and that doesn't seem to be happening right now.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Dylan32 on September 02, 2021, 03:28:42 am
I was about to write a scum-to-chum list, but I feel like my brain is just sorting high-info to low-info flips, which is nice if there's overlap on the high-info/scum categories, but maybe this is just because I'm up way too late to be thinking.

I think my scum categoty would include Glooble, pubby, faust.
Town is IC, iguana (just realized I didn't address GPD, which--while wrong--at least seemed like there was some real scumhunting in there), maybe Galz based moreso on some stuff today.
I still have no idea how to read EFHW. Like, we've been in quite a few games together, and yet in my mind you always just kind of seem the same and I haven't picked out any differences in how you play either side. Of course some of that might be that most of the games I've played recently I've not been town, so I haven't actually had to try to read you very often, so this is different. Mentally swowl and mathdude just are off my radar right now. I know they've done things, but I'm just drawing a blank trying to think of specifics here. If there was a point to be made about wagon positioning D1 on e, I guess maybe mathdude could have been scum on there. I don't think I would want to exile Didds today, because as has been said, they're on the easier side to read later in the game; but not just for the negative side, like, they're pretty good at scumhunting late game too if memory serves. In one of the last non-bsg games where I was scum and it was Didds, EFHW, scum!joth, and scum!me and I forget the last townie, I was really afraid of Didds going into the last day because you seemed to have my number the last couple game days and I really worried about you being able to convince EFHW and whoever the other person was (sorry if you are here and I can't remember you!!) that it was actually me.

Vote: Glooble
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Dylan32 on September 02, 2021, 03:30:04 am
Ok, my timezone is server time, so I need to be asleep a few hours ago. I will be on occasionally through the day tomorrow, hopefully including (but not sure) right around the deadline.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Swowl on September 02, 2021, 03:59:04 am
Good gravyÖ going back to work on campus after 16ish months away is sooooo hard. The commute alone is killing me.

Apologies for not being more present. Glooble is right, with deadline just two days away we canít afford to stall.

Iím done being made at pubby for calling me a liar

Vote: Dylan

Mostly for his placement on the e wagon, but also because I trust faust.

People keep saying my placement on the wagon was scummy, but no matter which of the two wagons I joined would have been X-1 (iirc). So if Galz is scum, then sure, I can agree from a neutral position it would look scummy, but like I've said before, A) I had a slightly bigger scumread on e and B) losing a hider is nowhere near as bad as losing a town vig if we were wrong (neither would be too bad compared to forcing a 3rd party, so see A again).

So I was doing a Math vs Dylan re read and I was actually giving the bolded part above a LOT of credit. Makes sense. If dylan, or anyone is skum after there are both claims... then why go for E! over Galz? I will answer. Either Galz is skum with the person in question that goes for E! or the person going for E! over galz legit believes in what they are saying. Which is cool and fair. And there is nothing wrong with it at all. But you know, dylan said IIRC so I went ahead and read the damn thread...

Here is the thing.... Here is vote count 1.5, which is Post #417

Vote Count 1.5

2.71828.... (6): Swowl, Awaclus, Glooble, mathdude, Galzria, Dylan32 (L-1)
Galzria (5): faust, 2.71828...., WestCoastDidds, MiX, EFHW (L-2)
Swowl (1): iguanaiguana
iguanaiguana (1): pubby
Not voting (0)

Cool. The whole "I chose E! over Galz because of claim" shit, makes no sense. Because... Galz claims here - in post #457


Galzria, can you claim?

I am the Tin Man.

Do you want me to claim my PR?

Most likely, yes.

I am Dorothyís protector by flavor provided.

I am a 2-shot Vig.

I donít shoot as Vig, so Iím essentially a VT, which is why my Exile is better than No Exile as it generates information at the very least while losing a PR that wonít be used.

That said, if I *did* shoot i couldíve helped resolv the e situation (if I understand correctly) if he didnít get exiled which is why I advocated going back to WCD here.

That may seem small. But when you are town, you don't have to make up reasons you think people are town vs skum. You remember that. Especially something as big as a claim. Dylan absolutely DID NOT know that Galz was a vig prior to the vote being placed on E!. The vote on E! was there first. That is a made up reason and that is skummy af.

Vote: Dylan

That is L2 not L1, MiX count most recent is wrong.

PPE: 2
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on September 02, 2021, 05:14:40 am
Not sure how much I like my Dylan vote right now. But my alternative would be Galzria, and that doesn't seem to be happening right now.

Vote for your scumreads.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on September 02, 2021, 05:51:23 am
I was about to write a scum-to-chum list, but I feel like my brain is just sorting high-info to low-info flips, which is nice if there's overlap on the high-info/scum categories, but maybe this is just because I'm up way too late to be thinking.

I think my scum categoty would include Glooble, pubby, faust.
Town is IC, iguana (just realized I didn't address GPD, which--while wrong--at least seemed like there was some real scumhunting in there), maybe Galz based moreso on some stuff today.
I still have no idea how to read EFHW. Like, we've been in quite a few games together, and yet in my mind you always just kind of seem the same and I haven't picked out any differences in how you play either side. Of course some of that might be that most of the games I've played recently I've not been town, so I haven't actually had to try to read you very often, so this is different. Mentally swowl and mathdude just are off my radar right now. I know they've done things, but I'm just drawing a blank trying to think of specifics here. If there was a point to be made about wagon positioning D1 on e, I guess maybe mathdude could have been scum on there. I don't think I would want to exile Didds today, because as has been said, they're on the easier side to read later in the game; but not just for the negative side, like, they're pretty good at scumhunting late game too if memory serves. In one of the last non-bsg games where I was scum and it was Didds, EFHW, scum!joth, and scum!me and I forget the last townie, I was really afraid of Didds going into the last day because you seemed to have my number the last couple game days and I really worried about you being able to convince EFHW and whoever the other person was (sorry if you are here and I can't remember you!!) that it was actually me.

Vote: Glooble

Can you talk about

I think my scum categoty would include Glooble, pubby, faust.

This instead?

Also how can you say GPD's wrong when you have GPF.

This is also the best time to say that I can't believe pubby didn't go for the DIG terminology instead, and that I townread him for it.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on September 02, 2021, 05:58:39 am
People keep saying my placement on the wagon was scummy, but no matter which of the two wagons I joined would have been X-1 (iirc). So if Galz is scum, then sure, I can agree from a neutral position it would look scummy, but like I've said before, A) I had a slightly bigger scumread on e and B) losing a hider is nowhere near as bad as losing a town vig if we were wrong (neither would be too bad compared to forcing a 3rd party, so see A again).

So I was doing a Math vs Dylan re read and I was actually giving the bolded part above a LOT of credit. Makes sense. If dylan, or anyone is skum after there are both claims... then why go for E! over Galz? I will answer. Either Galz is skum with the person in question that goes for E! or the person going for E! over galz legit believes in what they are saying. Which is cool and fair. And there is nothing wrong with it at all. But you know, dylan said IIRC so I went ahead and read the damn thread...

Here is the thing.... Here is vote count 1.5, which is Post #417

Vote Count 1.5

2.71828.... (6): Swowl, Awaclus, Glooble, mathdude, Galzria, Dylan32 (L-1)
Galzria (5): faust, 2.71828...., WestCoastDidds, MiX, EFHW (L-2)
Swowl (1): iguanaiguana
iguanaiguana (1): pubby
Not voting (0)

Cool. The whole "I chose E! over Galz because of claim" shit, makes no sense. Because... Galz claims here - in post #457

Dylan did not actually say that he voted e because "losing a hider is nowhere near as bad as losing a town vig if we were wrong". He voted e because he "had a slightly bigger scumread on e". He didn't move his vote because of the claims.

I'm also suspicious that you didn't investigate that e himself hadn't claimed when Dylan voted. Did you actually reread the game?
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: faust on September 02, 2021, 08:19:06 am
Vote: Swowl
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: WestCoastDidds on September 02, 2021, 09:04:30 am
Iím rereading this morning, mostly with an eye toward EFHW, Dylan, and Swowl.

Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: jotheonah on September 02, 2021, 10:01:00 am

Using a Crystal Ball, Glinda has set up a three-way conference call between Dorothy & friends, the Munchkins, and the Emerald City.

"First the Lollipop Guild leader, then my Doorman! The Witches are getting too bold!" bellows Oz.

"Agreed!" squeaks the Mayor. "We may have gotten it wrong with the Lion, but that's OK, his bubble will probably float back here eventually. In the meantime we've got to find the real witches! I suggest we choose someone to exile by the end of the day!"

"Oh my," says Dorothy. "People form angry mobs so quickly here!"


Vote Count 2.4

Dylan32 (3): WestCoastDidds, iguanaiguana, Swowl
Glooble (2): Galzria, Dylan32
pubby (2): EFHW, Glooble
WestCoastDidds (1): pubby
EFHW (1): MiX
Swowl (1): faust

Not voting (4): mathdude

With 11 alive, it takes 6 to exile. Day 2 ends Thursday, September 2 at 10:00 pm forum time. That's in about 12 hours.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: EFHW on September 02, 2021, 10:36:44 am
Vote: Glooble

My case was a bust. What's yours?
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: iguanaiguana on September 02, 2021, 12:21:20 pm
Less than 10 to deadline. Looks like we're shaping up to have a nice EoD scramble again!

I will vote for pubby, Dylan, or Galzria. I am on staying on Dylan right now because it seemed like throughout the day we had the most support there.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: iguanaiguana on September 02, 2021, 12:22:31 pm
I'm happy to talk through my reasons about anything with anyone. Just ask. My cards are on the table.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Glooble on September 02, 2021, 12:42:11 pm
vote: Dylan because let's try and avoid the scramble or at least make it happen sooner.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on September 02, 2021, 12:50:08 pm
Does everyone actually think scum!Dylan would be caught like this? He hasn't even done anything scummy. Is everyone else that townie that Dylan has to be scum by process of elimination?

I challenge the people that seems untouchable now: faust and Didds. And EFHW, partially.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: WestCoastDidds on September 02, 2021, 12:53:12 pm
Does everyone actually think scum!Dylan would be caught like this? He hasn't even done anything scummy. Is everyone else that townie that Dylan has to be scum by process of elimination?

I challenge the people that seems untouchable now: faust and Didds. And EFHW, partially.

Not quite following... What is the challenge?
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: iguanaiguana on September 02, 2021, 01:06:06 pm
Does everyone actually think scum!Dylan would be caught like this? He hasn't even done anything scummy. Is everyone else that townie that Dylan has to be scum by process of elimination?

I challenge the people that seems untouchable now: faust and Didds. And EFHW, partially.

faust is VLA and can't defend himself, and has done nothing particularly scummy that I've seen much like you claim for Dylan. I wrote in my QT (paraphrase) that if faust is still around on D4, just policy exile because I've lost a lot of games by trusting him too long. So -- I promise -- I won't just continue to blindly trust faust but I will give him a D2 pass.

Didds-wait, do you really think Didds is scum? Weren't you defending her just recently? I can't even keep up, man. Show me what's suspicious and I'll respond.

EFHW - I honestly just found the way she processed pubby's GID case and my response to it very townie. Before that, I didn't have a townread on her. That PoE actually really helped me get to wanting to vote Galz/Dylan/pubby today.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Dylan32 on September 02, 2021, 01:17:50 pm
I was about to write a scum-to-chum list, but I feel like my brain is just sorting high-info to low-info flips, which is nice if there's overlap on the high-info/scum categories, but maybe this is just because I'm up way too late to be thinking.

I think my scum categoty would include Glooble, pubby, faust.
Town is IC, iguana (just realized I didn't address GPD, which--while wrong--at least seemed like there was some real scumhunting in there), maybe Galz based moreso on some stuff today.
I still have no idea how to read EFHW. Like, we've been in quite a few games together, and yet in my mind you always just kind of seem the same and I haven't picked out any differences in how you play either side. Of course some of that might be that most of the games I've played recently I've not been town, so I haven't actually had to try to read you very often, so this is different. Mentally swowl and mathdude just are off my radar right now. I know they've done things, but I'm just drawing a blank trying to think of specifics here. If there was a point to be made about wagon positioning D1 on e, I guess maybe mathdude could have been scum on there. I don't think I would want to exile Didds today, because as has been said, they're on the easier side to read later in the game; but not just for the negative side, like, they're pretty good at scumhunting late game too if memory serves. In one of the last non-bsg games where I was scum and it was Didds, EFHW, scum!joth, and scum!me and I forget the last townie, I was really afraid of Didds going into the last day because you seemed to have my number the last couple game days and I really worried about you being able to convince EFHW and whoever the other person was (sorry if you are here and I can't remember you!!) that it was actually me.

Vote: Glooble

Can you talk about

I think my scum categoty would include Glooble, pubby, faust.

This instead?

Also how can you say GPD's wrong when you have GPF.

This is also the best time to say that I can't believe pubby didn't go for the DIG terminology instead, and that I townread him for it.

Well, GPD includes me, therefore it is wrong. And I donít know that both GP are scum together, Iíve just found them more scum than others.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Dylan32 on September 02, 2021, 01:22:20 pm
Vote: pubby

Letís consolidate there instead.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Dylan32 on September 02, 2021, 01:28:57 pm
Swowlís recent butchering of my post is like really scummy, misrepresenting stuff on the leading wagon to try to make sure the misexile  goes through. Like mix said, my choice between the two at X-2 came down to my read, and then after e claimed it shifted to Galz really quickly so he claimed, and after both claims I decided not to move because of the reasons I said.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: WestCoastDidds on September 02, 2021, 01:30:47 pm
Vote: pubby

Letís consolidate there instead.

What is the reason for pubby?
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: WestCoastDidds on September 02, 2021, 01:31:33 pm
Working on my rereads...

Swowl first.

D1, his posts mostly concern how he and I play togther, reading and rereading Glooble, voting and advocating for e, calling people who vote for him scummy because they can't point to what is scummy about him, and talking with Galz about whether or not to shoot. D2 he is less available, votes around a bit and ends up on Dylan because of the order of Dylan's claims about his vote.

This is, to me, his most scummy post:
Let's all vote Swowl

I do not believe I have ever been looked at so much without literally a single reason ever being stated as to why I am skummy.
No defense on this one. Pure offense.
You are skummy for it, faust is skummy for it, and whoever the other person was (Dylan i think) is skummy for it.

My assessment: probably scum, although the Dylan argument is not entirely bad.

Dylan next
He only has 6 posts in D1 until the run up at the end of the day. Says hi and MiX is the best IC (agree), engages about Glooble a bit with faust and then votes for Glooble, then votes for 2 (L-1) because he seems scummier than Glaz, and his last post is that we can't verify if e is the hider by letting him live. Would rather lose the hider than the vig.

This post seems to be pushing an exile even if its town.
I find it ironic that we've run up two wagons and gotten two claims of roles that either wouldn't hurt town too much to lose or would be convenient fake claims for scum, and it still seems like we are moving away from exiling either of them. Like I get it if we unfortunately hit a doc or a cop or something, but if we weren't going to exile either of e or galz after claiming these roles, were we ever going to exile anyone?

There is one towny moment when at the EoD, Galz asks if he would go back to Glooble and Dylan asks "how many more claims do we want to have today" which is a fair point. But then he says, ironically, he would go back to voting for Glooble. +.5. He ends the day advocating for e, but willing to switch to Galzy.

D2, gone for the start of the day. Opens with iguna reads as town, and pubby is mistaken but not scummy in his GID argument. Defneds himself against what he calls a Glooble tunnel. This is where he makes the arguments related to timing of the claims and his logic that Swowl points out. Acknowldges he hasn't been present, but that when he is scum he works harder at faux scum hunting. Then his reread, which probably is more for him than for us. Makes an argument about why a vig is protective.

Has Glooble, pubby, and faust on his scum list. But I see no reason for faust and pubby at all.

My assessment: Not very scummy. Maybe town. Nothing is really scummy, but its not helpful. He doesn't move the game forward at all, which is a bit out of character although he usually does that more/better later on.

EFHW next...

In the meantime Vote: Swowl

Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Glooble on September 02, 2021, 01:47:13 pm
Didds, that quote also stuck out at me when I re-read Dylan. Seemed townie I think. And there's just not that much meat on the bones as far as the case is concerned. I'm townreading faust and Didds right now, willing to join them on this wagon.

vote: Swowl
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Dylan32 on September 02, 2021, 01:48:10 pm
Didds, in my reread I literally called out at least one post of Faustís as scummy, so thatís why he is on that list. But honestly now that Iíve slept and Iím thinking about it, with pubby, I didnít really think the GID theory was scummy, but then by the end of my reread I had a scumread on them, and I donít really know why. Iíll iso to see if that actually holds up.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Galzria on September 02, 2021, 01:48:42 pm
Here until deadline. Catching up on what I missed from yesterday, as well as looking over the things I wanted to get to.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: WestCoastDidds on September 02, 2021, 01:50:52 pm
EFHW

She tends to ask a lot of questions, and that is true of D1, although the questions are not terribly incisive. Posts a naked vote for e and then later chides faust for naked votes. Votes for me for a bit and then rereads Glooble. Says there are "some things that she noticed" as a reason for not wanting to exile Glooble, and votes for Galz. And then...huh, that was her last post in D1. I hadn't realized that she hadn't participated in any part of the e discussion.

D2, challenges pubby theory, challenges my read on mathdude. Her scummiest folks are pubby, mathdude, and  she's going to reread Glooble. There are then 7 posts concerning Glooble's reasosn (or not) for his early pubby vote.

My assessment: probably scum There is almost no scumhunting going on in D1, and today she has been active engaged about what she sees as a contradiction in Glooble's explanation. No one other than MiX took up that subject, so the length of the discussion is notable. This could be an attempt to manufacture content without getting into hot water and that had the potential to reveal something incriminating. If she is scum and Glooble is town, that is a good play for her. She is not going after him hard so it stays below the radar, which is something that EFHW would have in her wheelhouse of awesome.

PPE 3
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: WestCoastDidds on September 02, 2021, 01:53:40 pm
Didds, in my reread I literally called out at least one post of Faustís as scummy, so thatís why he is on that list. But honestly now that Iíve slept and Iím thinking about it, with pubby, I didnít really think the GID theory was scummy, but then by the end of my reread I had a scumread on them, and I donít really know why. Iíll iso to see if that actually holds up.

I didn't ISO faust, so this is just impressions, but he mostly seems towny right now but also pretty VLA. I think I agree with Galz that a faust exile right now is a shot in the dark but a faust around later is a dangerous faust indeed
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Galzria on September 02, 2021, 01:56:26 pm
Quick question:

Is it known that there is exactly a 3 member scum team?

I've read a lot of 3-person teams being called today by a select few .... and it's seemed scummy to me. If I'm scum and have two teammates, then I know that "town!me" would be hunting for "3 scum"... but as far as I'm aware that isn't actually stated to be true. Most likely? Maybe. But I don't think that I would have ever jumped straight to that presumption.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: WestCoastDidds on September 02, 2021, 02:00:14 pm
So, after ISOing those Dylan, Swowl, and EFHW my friend to foe list looks like this:

MiX
faust
iguana
mathdude

Glooble
Galzy
Dylan
pubby

EFHW
Swowl

One thing I am thinking about, though, is who would kill Awaclus. My guess is that this was a faust suggestion, but could have also been EFHW, iguana, or Galz. I am not sure Swowl advocates for an Awaclus NK. That is all just musings from my head, though, but it does complicate my list.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on September 02, 2021, 02:00:31 pm
Quick question:

Is it known that there is exactly a 3 member scum team?

I've read a lot of 3-person teams being called today by a select few .... and it's seemed scummy to me. If I'm scum and have two teammates, then I know that "town!me" would be hunting for "3 scum"... but as far as I'm aware that isn't actually stated to be true. Most likely? Maybe. But I don't think that I would have ever jumped straight to that presumption.

It's NAI to most people. I can see it be scum indicative of pubby, but not anyone else, really.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: WestCoastDidds on September 02, 2021, 02:01:23 pm
I'm going to get some work done for a bit now, but I will be back.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Swowl on September 02, 2021, 02:03:38 pm
Swowlís recent butchering of my post is like really scummy, misrepresenting stuff on the leading wagon to try to make sure the misexile  goes through. Like mix said, my choice between the two at X-2 came down to my read, and then after e claimed it shifted to Galz really quickly so he claimed, and after both claims I decided not to move because of the reasons I said.

Unvote

Not skummy, misinterpreted. It was late, I got pumped thought I found a slip. m to the b
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Galzria on September 02, 2021, 02:10:00 pm
These next few posts will likely not have a strong narrative to them. I'm putting together the things that led me to my Glooble vote, but I'm also going to be commenting on anything that stands out to me.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Galzria on September 02, 2021, 02:10:07 pm
Vote: Mathdude
I want to see some wagons and the days are short. Plus I just looked through his posts and there's nothing really there... yet.

I don't know Mathdude's meta at all. But I have a vague feeling from skimming some recent games that he's a common D1 mislynch. Am I right or wrong?

This post is interesting. The additional word at the end of the first line sounds like a call out to a partner ("Hey, you've posted, but nothing of content - make sure you engage more."),.. and yet despite the vote that iguana is placing on Mathdude here, he's simultaneously trying to deflect people from taking the wagon seriously with the second sentence.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Galzria on September 02, 2021, 02:11:44 pm
Vote: Mathdude
I want to see some wagons and the days are short. Plus I just looked through his posts and there's nothing really there... yet.

I don't know Mathdude's meta at all. But I have a vague feeling from skimming some recent games that he's a common D1 mislynch. Am I right or wrong?

That is right.

So why would you vote for him?

Hard to choose a vote. I feel that scum is trying to avoid anyone getting more than 1 or 2 votes... taking advantage of the fact that townies are not on the same page about things. I feel that scum don't want wagons D1 that town can look at later and solve the game using. Therefore I want to vote for someone that someone else who is trying hard feels is a good vote as well... especially because no one is interested to join me on voting Awaclus.

In short, I have several weakish town reads, or at least pro town reads. Faust is one of those, mathdude is not one of those... and I'm sheeping faust.

Here's another question. I assume faust knows that Mathdude is a common D1 mislynch. So why would he go there? Isn't faust still considered to be a quite good player?

MiX actually calls Iguana on it too - I'm not a fan of Iguana's deflection.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Galzria on September 02, 2021, 02:17:43 pm
@e, what made you think of massclaim, anyway? They are usually disasters for town Day 1.
What do you think this question will accomplish?
Mostly keep him talking. If he has some scummy scheme in mind, then let him dig himself deeper. What did you think I was intending?
I don't know, that's why I was asking.
And what do you think now?
I think that maybe it wasn't an attempt at rolefishing, but I'm not completely convinced.
I was trusting town!e to know what not to say, while challenging a possible scum!e to commit himself further. There was a spate of games some years back where it seemed that people were role-slipping left and right. I think we had a bunch of inexperienced players then, and e does not fit that description.

This series of posts, given e's town flip, stands out to me - but I can't decide if I agree with faust that it could've been an attempt by scum!EFHW at role-fishing, or if I think that it shows EFHW genuinely didn't know e's alignment (ie. EFHW is town).
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: iguanaiguana on September 02, 2021, 02:53:43 pm
Vote: pubby
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: iguanaiguana on September 02, 2021, 02:54:13 pm
Vote Count 2.II.4

Dylan32 (1): Swowl
Glooble (1): Galzria
pubby (3): EFHW, Dylan32, Iguanaiguana
WestCoastDidds (1): pubby
EFHW (1): MiX
Swowl (3): faust, WestCoastDidds, Swowl

Not voting (1): mathdude

With 11 alive, it takes 6 to exile. Day 2 ends Thursday, September 2 at 10:00 pm forum time. That's in just over 8 hours.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: iguanaiguana on September 02, 2021, 02:56:29 pm
pubby is really my top choice. That whole case by him was so off. It was scummy on its face, and the defenses of it were not great. Most people have interacted with pubby since his big posts, and he's also implicated a lot of people now. So yes I think it would be a high information flip.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: iguanaiguana on September 02, 2021, 02:57:21 pm
Also, like yesterday, pubby is getting away with letting his early vote on a player who has no wagon sit there... and not participating at the EoD. town!pubby is a liability.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Galzria on September 02, 2021, 02:58:13 pm
Hypothetically, if we mass claim, then scum knows who is the doctor to roleblock and who is the tracker to shoot D1 and who is the vigilante to redirect onto the IC and we're screwed. We never get to catch scum out on their lying D1 claims because they know all of our powers and how to thwart them while we still know nothing real about them.

Mass claim is bad.

A lot of assumptions (knowledge?) about what powers scum has here; probably means nothing, but I wanted to note it for later just in case. Besides that, I agree.

I don't think these are very "bold" assumptions. Maybe replace Tracker with "Tracker/Cop" and then the Vig doesn't like "need to exist. But yeah, we have a start day IC... so just game creation wise, there kind of has to be certain roles for balance in a standard RMM.

I actually like Dylan calling out Iguana on this one ... and find Swowl's deflection scummy.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: WestCoastDidds on September 02, 2021, 03:00:10 pm
Vote Count 2.II.4

Dylan32 (1): Swowl
Glooble (1): Galzria
pubby (3): EFHW, Dylan32, Iguanaiguana
WestCoastDidds (1): pubby
EFHW (1): MiX
Swowl (3): faust, WestCoastDidds, Swowl

Not voting (1): mathdude

With 11 alive, it takes 6 to exile. Day 2 ends Thursday, September 2 at 10:00 pm forum time. That's in just over 8 hours.

Is Swowl voting for himself?
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Galzria on September 02, 2021, 03:00:58 pm
who brought up the mass claim orginally?

Got it. OK E! also skum points then.

Short days!

@e, what made you think of massclaim, anyway? They are usually disasters for town Day 1.

phishy.

These don't seem contradictory, but Swowl call's e's suggestion to massclaim scummy, but also calls EFHW scummy for asking why e wanted to massclaim. I'm not sure the logic seems entirely compatible, even if it's not contradictory.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: iguanaiguana on September 02, 2021, 03:02:14 pm
CORRECTED Vote Count 2.II.4

Dylan32 (1): Swowl
Glooble (1): Galzria
pubby (3): EFHW, Dylan32, Iguanaiguana
WestCoastDidds (1): pubby
EFHW (1): MiX
Swowl (3): faust, WestCoastDidds, Glooble

Not voting (1): mathdude

With 11 alive, it takes 6 to exile. Day 2 ends Thursday, September 2 at 10:00 pm forum time. That's in just over 8 hours.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on September 02, 2021, 03:02:42 pm
who brought up the mass claim orginally?

Got it. OK E! also skum points then.

Short days!

@e, what made you think of massclaim, anyway? They are usually disasters for town Day 1.

phishy.

These don't seem contradictory, but Swowl call's e's suggestion to massclaim scummy, but also calls EFHW scummy for asking why e wanted to massclaim. I'm not sure the logic seems entirely compatible, even if it's not contradictory.

Why did you quote these in reverse chronological order? Swowl didn't know e brought up the massclaim when he said EFHW's post was phishy.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: WestCoastDidds on September 02, 2021, 03:02:50 pm
Also, like yesterday, pubby is getting away with letting his early vote on a player who has no wagon sit there... and not participating at the EoD. town!pubby is a liability.

I also find this super annoying. Itís definitely antitown. My question is does scum!pubby come in hot with his game solve right off the bat knowing it will draw so much heat? I canít say that I know or read pubby well, but that seems like heís making himself a target.

MiX, youíve been scum with pubby. What do you think?

PPE: thank you!
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on September 02, 2021, 03:03:46 pm
Also, like yesterday, pubby is getting away with letting his early vote on a player who has no wagon sit there... and not participating at the EoD. town!pubby is a liability.

I also find this super annoying. Itís definitely antitown. My question is does scum!pubby come in hot with his game solve right off the bat knowing it will draw so much heat? I canít say that I know or read pubby well, but that seems like heís making himself a target.

MiX, youíve been scum with pubby. What do you think?

PPE: thank you!

I think pubby's town. I also think this could be scum!pubby. pubby likes making plays as scum, and this case is technically a play. It's just not a scum play.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Galzria on September 02, 2021, 03:07:52 pm
who brought up the mass claim orginally?

Got it. OK E! also skum points then.

Short days!

@e, what made you think of massclaim, anyway? They are usually disasters for town Day 1.

phishy.

These don't seem contradictory, but Swowl call's e's suggestion to massclaim scummy, but also calls EFHW scummy for asking why e wanted to massclaim. I'm not sure the logic seems entirely compatible, even if it's not contradictory.

Why did you quote these in reverse chronological order? Swowl didn't know e brought up the massclaim when he said EFHW's post was phishy.

Because the first didn't stand out to me until I got to the second. I hit quote on the second, went back and grabbed the first and inserted it into my post.

The order doesn't really matter though from Swowl's perspective. It's weird to think that both suggestion Mass Claim is scummy, and thinking that questioning that suggestion is scummy.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: iguanaiguana on September 02, 2021, 03:07:57 pm
I think it is totally silly to talk about scum pubby's meta when the only time he's EVER been scum was in a bastard game where literally everyone was a redirector and he pretended to be a bud light fruit vendor!
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on September 02, 2021, 03:11:40 pm
I think it is totally silly to talk about scum pubby's meta when the only time he's EVER been scum was in a bastard game where literally everyone was a redirector and he pretended to be a bud light fruit vendor!

It is not silly at all. People believed him, after all.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: WestCoastDidds on September 02, 2021, 03:13:33 pm
I think it is totally silly to talk about scum pubby's meta when the only time he's EVER been scum was in a bastard game where literally everyone was a redirector and he pretended to be a bud light fruit vendor!

Thatís true. Absent his meta though, Iím just not sure the game solve is a scum move. Exiling him for lurking isnít a bad argument, either. But I think both EFHW and Swowl actually have some scummier moves.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on September 02, 2021, 03:15:39 pm
If we're policy exiling, we should mass claim.

This is not a joke either.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Galzria on September 02, 2021, 03:16:12 pm
Also, like yesterday, pubby is getting away with letting his early vote on a player who has no wagon sit there... and not participating at the EoD. town!pubby is a liability.

I also find this super annoying. Itís definitely antitown. My question is does scum!pubby come in hot with his game solve right off the bat knowing it will draw so much heat? I canít say that I know or read pubby well, but that seems like heís making himself a target.

MiX, youíve been scum with pubby. What do you think?

PPE: thank you!

I think pubby's town. I also think this could be scum!pubby. pubby likes making plays as scum, and this case is technically a play. It's just not a scum play.

I also think pubby is town right now. I don't think scum lets themselves be the lone person off a wagon end of day 1, especially when neither of those wagons matters to scum so there's no reason NOT to be on board. There's just no reason to draw unsolicited attention by being the lone wolf, whereas town is generally less concerned.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Swowl on September 02, 2021, 03:19:36 pm
who brought up the mass claim orginally?

Got it. OK E! also skum points then.

Short days!

@e, what made you think of massclaim, anyway? They are usually disasters for town Day 1.

phishy.

These don't seem contradictory, but Swowl call's e's suggestion to massclaim scummy, but also calls EFHW scummy for asking why e wanted to massclaim. I'm not sure the logic seems entirely compatible, even if it's not contradictory.

logic was/is E! skummy for bringing it up and then EFHW skummy for bringing it back up. which in hindsight, since E! was Town... makes EFHW's stand out a little more.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: iguanaiguana on September 02, 2021, 03:23:03 pm
I think it is totally silly to talk about scum pubby's meta when the only time he's EVER been scum was in a bastard game where literally everyone was a redirector and he pretended to be a bud light fruit vendor!

It is not silly at all. People believed him, after all.

I'm not talking about his play during that game. All I am saying is that comparing that game to this game is apples to oranges.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Galzria on September 02, 2021, 03:23:46 pm
Actually.

Vote: EFHW

Awaclus was town. I have reasons to not want to exile WCD/faust today that will hopefully resolve themselves over the next few game days. If they are both town, then EFHW is the last person on my wagon. As I don't think pubby is scum, and I doubt all scum were on e (although entirely possible), that leaves EFHW by process of elimination.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: iguanaiguana on September 02, 2021, 03:26:56 pm
If we're policy exiling, we should mass claim.

This is not a joke either.

For me, pubby is not a policy exile. It's a good chance to hit scum exile. I am just giving reasons for people on the fence to join in. I already made the case against him. Also, we can't do a mass claim right now because there's no gaurantee that everyone would show up, get on board, and be able to claim before deadline. In fact, I'd call it very unlikely.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: iguanaiguana on September 02, 2021, 03:28:27 pm
Request prod on pubby
Request prod on Mathdude


I don't want them kicked out. But please mod can you send them a message and ask them to come back to the game?
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: WestCoastDidds on September 02, 2021, 03:31:39 pm
MiX, would you care to share your thoughts on EFHW. Or at least your thoughts about my thoughts on EFHW. I am willing to switch, but I don't want to be capricious.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Dylan32 on September 02, 2021, 03:31:50 pm
Pubby iso.

vote: iguanaiguana

RVS? Or in response to Iguana's one post?

Iguana!!!

Man, I know that Iíve missed a few games now, but whatís the last one you were in??

Looking at my own post history... I last played a game in September of 2018.

My goal this run around is to be a bit less of a jerk.

Vote: Lalight.

Having an IC leads to really good PoE that he is scum.

*flavor joke after vote count*

Ok, time for an embarassing post.

Lalight is not playing :(

I just realized this... right now. I think when I cast my first vote, I had just scanned the players and saw LL's name. Then for some reason Joth decided to make my vote for his comod count in the vote totals... which validated my feelings of LL playing this game. Today I looked to try to figure out why he hadn't posted yet... and ... yeah... Lol, I failed.
In other words you felt obligated to vote for someone in your opening post and didn't care who. Scummy much?

So I don't know if pubby's initial vote was because he caught that LL wasn't in the game and already thought it, or if the vote was RVS and he was able to use this to justify it.

I've been somewhat suspicious of glooble. Their first few posts were terse and seemed like they were just going through the motions. Then they jump into an argument with faust, acting defensively when the actual topic of discussion didn't require it.

But for now I'm fine with parking my vote on iguana. Swowl I read as town.

FoS on Glooble for going through the motions, but reading Glooble doesn't actually give me that impression. One thing I did see was that Glooble's 3rd or so post was a vote on pubby for the sake of building some wagons, so the Glooble FoS is actually kind of OMGUS.

This shouldnít be a choice between Glooble and me.
Yeah it's awful. I would vote for both of you if I could  8)

Glooble is a really bad vote. I'm at work so kinda busy today. Yes I knew Didds, I maybe didn't play with her quite as much as the others
What makes him a really bad vote? This is d1. Our decisions can't be *that* informed.

At what point do I claim, given that once my role is revealed we will need time to find an alternate wagon?
You just hinted you have an important role, no? That's almost as bad as a full claim.

And here in posts #318 GID is already complete. Literally those are the 3 people he interacts with here. This is also pubby's last post before the deadline.

Then he leads off with the first post of D2:

Scum team is Glooble, Iguana, Didds. Didds is the most obvious one.

There was some panic in the scum team early on with wagons around Glooble and Didds. They rallied to save each other, then hopped on the first alternative wagons. This is why all three voted late.

Vote: Didds

I doubt I'll be active much tomorrow BTW.

The next post defends the case, and the final post considers replacing iguana with faust in the theory due to some partnery looking comments. That is pubby's whole game.

ppe 5
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on September 02, 2021, 03:34:05 pm
MiX, would you care to share your thoughts on EFHW. Or at least your thoughts about my thoughts on EFHW. I am willing to switch, but I don't want to be capricious.

I think no one has looked at EFHW, and I can't find scum, so it would make sense that I haven't looked at scum yet, which would make EFHW scum. Also they can easily flip today if town is truly scumreading them.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Dylan32 on September 02, 2021, 03:36:14 pm
There's just not a lot there, but that little amount of content, he sure started a lot of conversations between other people. So I don't think that would be the worst exile, and I am still leaning scum there, but there's just not a lot of content there to judge, and while I still think pubby could be scum, I could also see the low-activity town narrative there too.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Dylan32 on September 02, 2021, 03:36:48 pm
There's just not a lot there, but that little amount of content, he sure started a lot of conversations between other people. So I don't think that would be the worst exile, and I am still leaning scum there, but there's just not a lot of content there to judge, and while I still think pubby could be scum, I could also see the low-activity town narrative there too.

To be clear, this was meant to follow off of my pubby iso, not the other convo that is happening.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: WestCoastDidds on September 02, 2021, 03:37:44 pm
MiX, would you care to share your thoughts on EFHW. Or at least your thoughts about my thoughts on EFHW. I am willing to switch, but I don't want to be capricious.

I think no one has looked at EFHW, and I can't find scum, so it would make sense that I haven't looked at scum yet, which would make EFHW scum. Also they can easily flip today if town is truly scumreading them.

Well, that says you hadn't looked at her so POE. Have you looked at her since then? Or taken a look at what I found?
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on September 02, 2021, 03:39:40 pm
MiX, would you care to share your thoughts on EFHW. Or at least your thoughts about my thoughts on EFHW. I am willing to switch, but I don't want to be capricious.

I think no one has looked at EFHW, and I can't find scum, so it would make sense that I haven't looked at scum yet, which would make EFHW scum. Also they can easily flip today if town is truly scumreading them.

Well, that says you hadn't looked at her so POE. Have you looked at her since then? Or taken a look at what I found?

I've skimmed your post, will read it after I reread EFHW.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: pubby on September 02, 2021, 03:43:26 pm
I dunno if I'll be around for the exile, but I'm voting for the GFD group:

Vote: Glooble
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Galzria on September 02, 2021, 03:48:14 pm
Had a work call. Off now. Back to re-read.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: WestCoastDidds on September 02, 2021, 03:52:13 pm
I just saw your kickstarter link, pubby. I'm bummed I missed it. I'd totally have backed you!
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: iguanaiguana on September 02, 2021, 03:56:09 pm
Going to work. Won't be available except the hour before deadline which is luckily my lunch hour
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Glooble on September 02, 2021, 04:00:35 pm
I didn't realize the deadline was so late. My class ends at 8:30, but then I have an unfamiliar bus route to navigate. Still I should be able to get online half an hour before the deadline if not a bit sooner.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: EFHW on September 02, 2021, 04:01:51 pm
Didds' reading of me is inaccurate. It feels hastily done. I did not have a naked vote on e. The post just previous to the vote explained my thinking. There were not 7 posts on Glooble. Surely you don't object to my making the case in the first place. There were 5 posts after that. One processing the misreading of reasons. Another defending my second point. The third is me ending the case.  Then I had to respond to MiX accusing me of shading Glooble. And finally, I answered MiX's question. Which posts do you find excessive? Also, the "things I noticed" were reasons I would vote Glooble, not the reason I didn't. They became the case I presented today.

I have acknowledged and apologized for my absence EOD1. I got wrapped up in a project and lost track of time. I recognize that town had less flexibility without me there.

Part of my scumhunting D1 was scumreading you for not scumhunting. So how do we make sense of that?
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: EFHW on September 02, 2021, 04:07:32 pm
Actually.

Vote: EFHW

Awaclus was town. I have reasons to not want to exile WCD/faust today that will hopefully resolve themselves over the next few game days. If they are both town, then EFHW is the last person on my wagon. As I don't think pubby is scum, and I doubt all scum were on e (although entirely possible), that leaves EFHW by process of elimination.

This doesn't follow logically. I'm the only one left from your wagon because you are undecided about Didds and faust. So how does that lead to POE that I must be scum? If we discovered they were both town, then your argument would apply, though it stills rests on the assumption that all the scum wouldn't be on e.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: WestCoastDidds on September 02, 2021, 04:10:02 pm
Didds' reading of me is inaccurate. It feels hastily done. I did not have a naked vote on e. The post just previous to the vote explained my thinking. There were not 7 posts on Glooble. Surely you don't object to my making the case in the first place. There were 5 posts after that. One processing the misreading of reasons. Another defending my second point. The third is me ending the case.  Then I had to respond to MiX accusing me of shading Glooble. And finally, I answered MiX's question. Which posts do you find excessive? Also, the "things I noticed" were reasons I would vote Glooble, not the reason I didn't. They became the case I presented today.

I have acknowledged and apologized for my absence EOD1. I got wrapped up in a project and lost track of time. I recognize that town had less flexibility without me there.

Part of my scumhunting D1 was scumreading you for not scumhunting. So how do we make sense of that?

Not hastily done, but definitely distractedly since I am multitasking during a boring faculty meeting. Thanks for the clarification on the things about Glooble.

PPE: 1
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: EFHW on September 02, 2021, 04:17:14 pm
who brought up the mass claim orginally?

Got it. OK E! also skum points then.

Short days!

@e, what made you think of massclaim, anyway? They are usually disasters for town Day 1.

phishy.

These don't seem contradictory, but Swowl call's e's suggestion to massclaim scummy, but also calls EFHW scummy for asking why e wanted to massclaim. I'm not sure the logic seems entirely compatible, even if it's not contradictory.

logic was/is E! skummy for bringing it up and then EFHW skummy for bringing it back up. which in hindsight, since E! was Town... makes EFHW's stand out a little more.

Would I be less scummy if he had flipped scum? I didn't know his alignment, so I would have done the same thing either way.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Swowl on September 02, 2021, 04:19:35 pm
Actually.

Vote: EFHW

Awaclus was town. I have reasons to not want to exile WCD/faust today that will hopefully resolve themselves over the next few game days. If they are both town, then EFHW is the last person on my wagon. As I don't think pubby is scum, and I doubt all scum were on e (although entirely possible), that leaves EFHW by process of elimination.

interesting. what do you make of Glooble/II hopping back and forth then?
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Swowl on September 02, 2021, 04:23:32 pm
who brought up the mass claim orginally?

Got it. OK E! also skum points then.

Short days!

@e, what made you think of massclaim, anyway? They are usually disasters for town Day 1.

phishy.

These don't seem contradictory, but Swowl call's e's suggestion to massclaim scummy, but also calls EFHW scummy for asking why e wanted to massclaim. I'm not sure the logic seems entirely compatible, even if it's not contradictory.

logic was/is E! skummy for bringing it up and then EFHW skummy for bringing it back up. which in hindsight, since E! was Town... makes EFHW's stand out a little more.

Would I be less scummy if he had flipped scum? I didn't know his alignment, so I would have done the same thing either way.

fun question... uhm - yes? Not like "not skummy", but yes, less skummy.  I guess I would think that while it is likely that someone discussing mass claim is skum that not necessarily everyone discussing it has to be skum.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Galzria on September 02, 2021, 05:13:51 pm
Putting it out there as to why I'm suspicious of Glooble:



So D1, at it's peak, Glooble's wagon had 3 votes:

Glooble (3): WestCoastDidds, Dylan32, MiX

Shortly before that, MiX asked everybody to chime in on their feelings regarding Glooble. Going to grab those responses as I see them.

I've been somewhat suspicious of glooble. Their first few posts were terse and seemed like they were just going through the motions. Then they jump into an argument with faust, acting defensively when the actual topic of discussion didn't require it.

But for now I'm fine with parking my vote on iguana. Swowl I read as town.

Pubby - suspicious of Glooble


Swowl doesn't find Glooble scummy.

And that's generally it.

So we have, voting Glooble or finding him scummy: MiX, WCD, Dylan, pubby
And we have not finding him scummy: Swowl

Moving on, this next post is an extremely scummy response.

Vote: Glooble

This is a bad way to go today.

What exactly have I been doing today that isn't consistent with my normal day 1 playstyle?

I know it's taboo to talk about what PR related reasons Glooble might've been referring to in the below post, and I know that now he's tried to explain this way multiple times now... but let's be honest - this is early D1 without anything claimed. Hinting at any sort of PR reasoning (especially one that has now been said to be extremely weak and silly) seems... off.
I'm never useful day 1. I usually can't develop scumreads this early. I voted for pubby in the hopes of starting a pubby wagon not because I necessarily thought he was scum, but because I thought he might be scum and it might provide useful interactions. I also had a reason for thinking he was a teensy bit more likely to be scum than others who already had votes on them, and I wam not interested in sharing that reason atm.

After that I highlighted two posts that felt a little off to me in the hopes of spurring discussion. I honestly expected more people to agree with me about faust, but apparently this is an area where I differ from most of the players on this forum so that ended up leading no where. Other than that all I've done is try to defend myself.

This next post by Iguana could be taken to indicate he's in the town-reading bucket on Glooble.

Glooble then quickly joins iguana on WCD:
I'll get on the Didds wagon. It's a better case than any of the other ones I've seen.

vote: WestCoastDidds

This vote by Math actually puts Glooble at 4, I believe, but it's slipped in between VC's so the (4) was never recorded:
Regarding the Glooble, WCD, and Swowl votes, even though they are regulars, I don't really have reads on them (or EFHW) D1... they don't stand out to me much, one way or another. For those 4, I'm not seeing things that I interpret as scummy.

For the moment, I'll have to trust our IC and not vote Didds (don't get used to it, MiX!)

I'm getting a gut feel that faust is scum, and there's connections between him and both Awaclus and Glooble, so keep an eye, possibly on 2 or all 3 of those.

I'd rather vote faust or go back to e. But to keep another wagon going, for now, I'll
vote: Glooble

faust won't vote Glooble:
I will accept no exile before I vote for either Didds or Glooble.

EFHW "found some things", but doesn't want to exile Glooble:
I reread Glooble. There were some things that I noticed, but I don't want to exile him today.

vote: Galzria.

This post by MiX is an important point - as I know I'm town, e was town, and I would rather exile Glooble between WCD/Glooble right now.

As it stands... I think we probably maybe have a T v T situation with the two exiles with scum voting on both wagons. I don't know but that's my gut feeling right now -.-

That was my sense and why I moved off Glooble

Not the previous half wagons of WCD V Glooble... which also COULD have been T v T. I'm talking about the current wagons of e vs. Galzria.

Just pick the scum out of Didds/Glooble/e/Galzria. Unless you're saying they're all T? In which case, what a day this has been.

-----

This brings us up to the end of the day stuff, and covers most people's opinions. Obviously there has been a lot of talk around Glooble. A lot of scum reads, a lot of won't vote Glooble reads.

The next two posts (along with Dylan jumping in on the conversation) was what really jumped out to me at the end of day yesterday:

I think a lot of time N1 actions are pretty much blind, and the best way for people to direct their actions is based on a flip.  I have historically been a huge advocate of D1 exiles, going so far as to hammer myself as town to ensure an exile went through on D1. (on a side note - town did win and I like to think my self-exile contributed to that)

That is not the situation here.  I think there is enough to go on between Galzria and myself, plus other wagons and opinions on Swowl, Didds, and others to give people enough to make informed N1 action choices.

That and the very high likelihood of a multiple-death night either N1 or sometime in the future
I find it ironic that we've run up two wagons and gotten two claims of roles that either wouldn't hurt town too much to lose or would be convenient fake claims for scum, and it still seems like we are moving away from exiling either of them. Like I get it if we unfortunately hit a doc or a cop or something, but if we weren't going to exile either of e or galz after claiming these roles, were we ever going to exile anyone?

Exactly!

Also, I stil want to see an exile happen. I'd rather it is e as it seems like a very low risk, potential fake claim. But I'd jump to Galz, Didds, or even Swowl to get one.

Obviously e was town, so whatever - but at the time I found it really strange that given all the talk and opinions on Glooble throughout the day, all of a sudden he wasn't on anybody's list when considering other wagons that weren't myself or e.

Looking back at it all and in more detail... It's not as strong a read as I thought it was. But it's where my head was at at the end of the day yesterday. /shrug
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Swowl on September 02, 2021, 05:19:23 pm
Height of WCD and Glooble wagons were:

WCD (4) - Galzria, iguanaiguana, Glooble, EFHW
Glooble (4): WestCoastDidds, Dylan32, MiX, Mathdude

fast forward.

Vote Count 1.4
2.71828.... (4): Swowl, Awaclus, MiX, Glooble
Galzria (3): faust, 2.71828...., WestCoastDidds
WestCoastDidds (3): Galzria, iguanaiguana, EFHW
Glooble (1): Dylan32
iguanaiguana (1): pubby
faust (1): mathdude

then...

Vote Count 1.4.MiX
2.71828.... (5): Swowl, Awaclus, Glooble, mathdude, Galzria
Galzria (4): faust, 2.71828...., WestCoastDidds, MiX
WestCoastDidds (1): iguanaiguana
Glooble (1): Dylan32
iguanaiguana (1): pubby
Not voting (1): EFHW
--- 7 hours out ---

then...

Vote Count 1.5
2.71828.... (6): Swowl, Awaclus, Glooble, mathdude, Galzria, Dylan32 (L-1)
Galzria (5): faust, 2.71828...., WestCoastDidds, MiX, EFHW (L-2)
Swowl (1): iguanaiguana
iguanaiguana (1): pubby
--- 4 hours out ---

ok last-ish one, stick with me here...

Vote Count 1.MiX
Galzria (5): faust, 2.71828...., WestCoastDidds, EFHW, Awaclus
2.71828.... (4): Swowl, Glooble, mathdude, Dylan32
WestCoastDidds (2): MiX, Galzria
Swowl (1): iguanaiguana
iguanaiguana (1): pubby
7 to exile. 3 hours to deadline.

- Ok so right after this VC a few things happen...
1) E! votes no exile and then leaves for the night.
2) Awaclus has left for the night
3) faust is gone for the night
4) pubby is assumed gone for the night.

So I am gonna act on the assumption that Galzria is town on this one. Obviously, if I am wrong then this is all negated. But I am moderately confident in my read.
If galz is town and we did in fact have TVT wagons here, this created an interesting situation when MiX and Galz moved to WCD and then E! did not move to Galz (instead to nox).

Galz is not going to move to Galz. I know he said he would, but you know... He also claims here.
MiX stated they do not want to lynch E! He said Galz and/or E! but then brings up just exiling Galz after the claim.
WCD is pretty hard set on Galz.
Swowl has clearly stated they are not going for Galz over E!
faust checked out
pubby is gone
awaclus checked out
E checked out.

OK whatever... point is that in a world where it was TVT wagons, this combination of players that are gone and/or not going to move would make skum need to consolidate. And, as faust and Awaclus are both gone and both on Galz... the clear choice would be to go for Galz.

Iguana goes to galz
Glooble moves from E! to Galz - that is an eyebrow raise.

That brings us here...

Vote Count 1.?.MiX
Galzria (6): faust, WestCoastDidds, EFHW, Awaclus, Glooble, iguanaiguana
2.71828.... (3): Swowl, mathdude, Dylan32
iguanaiguana (1): pubby
Glooble (1): Galzria
No exile (2): 2.71828...., MiX

- WCD then does in fact unvote Galz. But just to come back to him later.
- Galz then jumps on E! (bring it to E@4/Galz@5)
- Glooble goes BACK to E!, flipping the 5-4 wagons.

Didds Count
Galzria (4): faust, EFHW, Awaclus, iguanaiguana
2.71828.... (5): Swowl, mathdude, Dylan32, Galz, Glooble
iguanaiguana (1): pubby
No exile/not voting  (3): 2.71828...., MiX, WCD

-II moves to E
- WCD back to Galz
- MiX hammers


TLDR; If galz is town then I think his wagon was saturated at some point. Since E! was town, I think his wagon was saturated at some point. Instead of looking at the campers, we can look at the last minute movers back and forth because they HAD to move based on players alive to get a lynch off if it was TVT based on statements and people that were around. That makes me suspicious of Glooble and II.

PPE 1




Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Swowl on September 02, 2021, 05:19:52 pm
Vote: Glooble

I have to go to work but I will be around.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Galzria on September 02, 2021, 05:21:23 pm
Actually.

Vote: EFHW

Awaclus was town. I have reasons to not want to exile WCD/faust today that will hopefully resolve themselves over the next few game days. If they are both town, then EFHW is the last person on my wagon. As I don't think pubby is scum, and I doubt all scum were on e (although entirely possible), that leaves EFHW by process of elimination.

interesting. what do you make of Glooble/II hopping back and forth then?

I don't think it's alignment indicative. Both wagons were town. Scum doesn't care which wagon goes off. It's a mixed bag of points - being around and present and helping the exile go through is generally townie. Exiling town is generally scummy. Exiling is both a pro-town and a pro-scum action.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on September 02, 2021, 05:26:56 pm
Someone with more time and patience than me write a wall post about how faust and Didds are partnered. I don't think I can write one today.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Galzria on September 02, 2021, 05:29:44 pm
Someone with more time and patience than me write a wall post about how faust and Didds are partnered. I don't think I can write one today.

I don't have the time to do it right now (I'm here until deadline, but will be moving to mobile in 30-45 minutes). However, I acknowledge that such a wall can be written.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: mathdude on September 02, 2021, 05:31:56 pm
I'm still on the road driving home. Stopping for dinner in 15 minutes. I likely won't have time to read up on 7 pages, but I will skim.

Can someone give me a short summary of the last 3.5 days, current vote count, and deadline? Thanks.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: mathdude on September 02, 2021, 05:35:03 pm
Request prod on pubby
Request prod on Mathdude


I don't want them kicked out. But please mod can you send them a message and ask them to come back to the game?

I posted Monday morning, saying I was away from internet access and should be back late Thursday afternoon. I'm here now.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: faust on September 02, 2021, 05:35:38 pm
Someone with more time and patience than me write a wall post about how faust and Didds are partnered. I don't think I can write one today.
We're town partners, maybe.

I don't have a complete grasp on the current vote count, but I'm happy to leave my vote where it is. I won't return before the deadline.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on September 02, 2021, 05:36:45 pm
Vote Count 2.MiX.2

pubby (3): EFHW, Dylan32, Iguanaiguana
EFHW (2): MiX, Galzria
Swowl (3): faust, WestCoastDidds, Glooble
Glooble (2): pubby, Swowl

Not voting (1): mathdude

With 11 alive, it takes 6 to exile. Day ends in 4.5 hours.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on September 02, 2021, 05:38:55 pm
faust and Didds are back on Swowl, after both of them being on Swowl D1. Hmm.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Galzria on September 02, 2021, 06:08:26 pm
Need more EFHW votes.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: WestCoastDidds on September 02, 2021, 06:16:54 pm
faust and Didds are back on Swowl, after both of them being on Swowl D1. Hmm.

On D1, my vote was a goofy where are you, friend vote. Today there are reasons.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on September 02, 2021, 06:29:58 pm
faust and Didds are back on Swowl, after both of them being on Swowl D1. Hmm.

On D1, my vote was a goofy where are you, friend vote. Today there are reasons.

Remember kids, don't look at a random point in a vote count...

Thanks.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Galzria on September 02, 2021, 06:56:58 pm
faust and Didds are back on Swowl, after both of them being on Swowl D1. Hmm.

On D1, my vote was a goofy where are you, friend vote. Today there are reasons.

Remember kids, don't look at a random point in a vote count...

Thanks.

Faust has been tunneling swowl since early D1 and has dodged giving reasons for the majority of the game. The only time he wasnít tunneling Swowl really is when he switched to me late D1.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Dylan32 on September 02, 2021, 07:00:11 pm
Someone with more time and patience than me write a wall post about how faust and Didds are partnered. I don't think I can write one today.

I think pubby did something like this in his post swapping faust in for iguana on his team call.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Swowl on September 02, 2021, 07:08:25 pm
At work. Mobile. Iíll sheep

Vote: EFHW
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Galzria on September 02, 2021, 07:23:23 pm
2.5 to deadline. Need people to come through.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Galzria on September 02, 2021, 07:34:00 pm
Ö. Aaaand 1 member viewing thread. Fantastic.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on September 02, 2021, 07:34:19 pm
Ö. Aaaand 1 member viewing thread. Fantastic.

I always chill in Recent Posts.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: jotheonah on September 02, 2021, 07:44:51 pm


ďIsnít there, like a spell you can cast to detect impostors?Ē asks Auntie Em, once sheís up to speed on everything.

ďYou know, you canít just ask a witch to solve all your problems,Ē says Glinda.

ďHey wait a minute,Ē says Tin Man. ďYouíre a witch! Who says your a good one and not a bad one?Ē


Vote Count 2.5

pubby (3): EFHW, Dylan32, Iguanaiguana
EFHW (3): MiX, Galzria, Swowl
Swowl (3): faust, WestCoastDidds, Glooble
Glooble (1): pubby

Not voting (1): mathdude

With 11 alive, it takes 6 to exile. Day ends in 2 hours and fifteen minutes.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Galzria on September 02, 2021, 07:46:20 pm
Ö. Aaaand 1 member viewing thread. Fantastic.

I always chill in Recent Posts.

Iím going to be coaching starting in 15 minutes. Will still be on mobile but wonít be full access until 30 to deadline.

I would prefer others show up and help make EFHW happen. Based off the other two wagons, you and I could put either at L-1 if needed, which would only require 1 other non member of those wagons to be here. If we donít have movements by 30 to deadline I will follow you to whichever of Pubby/swowl you prefer.

Based on the current wagons I would lean Swowl before pubby personally.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: iguanaiguana on September 02, 2021, 07:54:09 pm
I'm here, but I won't vote for EFHW or Swowl. I'll go back to Dylan, or start up Galzria.
 
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on September 02, 2021, 07:55:03 pm
I'm here, but I won't vote for EFHW or Swowl. I'll go back to Dylan, or start up Galzria.

pubby, EFHW or Swowl are the only viable wagons.

Why aren't you voting for EFHW or Swowl?
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: WestCoastDidds on September 02, 2021, 08:02:40 pm
I'm here, but I won't vote for EFHW or Swowl. I'll go back to Dylan, or start up Galzria.

Why wonít you vote for EFHW or Swowl? If it comes down to that, you prefer noexile?
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: WestCoastDidds on September 02, 2021, 08:03:09 pm
Sorry, MIX already asked? I need to read before I post!
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: iguanaiguana on September 02, 2021, 08:07:28 pm
I'm here, but I won't vote for EFHW or Swowl. I'll go back to Dylan, or start up Galzria.

pubby, EFHW or Swowl are the only viable wagons.

Why aren't you voting for EFHW or Swowl?

1. It's frustrating that Dylan was the exile that the most people expressed support for throughout the day, but now he's being considered as "not a viable wagon." I don't think it's true.

2. I read the thread super-fricken carefully, and formed decently strong scum reads on Galzria, Dylan, and pubby each as indviduals first. Then, when I finally went through and considered them as a team, I found them behaving partnery among each other as well. I am absolutely NOT dead set that they are the team, but it is a matter where I will need to see an exonerating result or a  town flip from one of them to really have a good reason to reconsider.

3. On a personal note, before I left I lost quite a few games as town. Often, I was coaxed into voting for a weak scumread instead of a strong scum read, often by the other scum I hadn't found out yet. That feeling SUCKS. The feeling of "I didn't even want this exile, and now I'm reading a town flip." I'm not going to do that this game.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: iguanaiguana on September 02, 2021, 08:09:31 pm
I'm here, but I won't vote for EFHW or Swowl. I'll go back to Dylan, or start up Galzria.

Why wonít you vote for EFHW or Swowl? If it comes down to that, you prefer noexile?

hellz yeah!! Tomorrow we can talk about mass claiming maybe, or do something, and we'll at least have EFHW and Swowl around to fricken help!

Like... NO WAY am I voting for EFHW. Swowl I give like 5% chance of being scum. I would absolutely hate hate DESPISE it if you guys put me in the position of having to hammer him.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: iguanaiguana on September 02, 2021, 08:14:22 pm
Ö. Aaaand 1 member viewing thread. Fantastic.

I always chill in Recent Posts.

Iím going to be coaching starting in 15 minutes. Will still be on mobile but wonít be full access until 30 to deadline.

I would prefer others show up and help make EFHW happen. Based off the other two wagons, you and I could put either at L-1 if needed, which would only require 1 other non member of those wagons to be here. If we donít have movements by 30 to deadline I will follow you to whichever of Pubby/swowl you prefer.

Based on the current wagons I would lean Swowl before pubby personally.

Look at this!!! Look how carefully he shares that he might be willing to do a pubby exile. He KNOWS that MiX doesn't want to exile pubby. He's RELYING ON IT. But he also knows he can't be completely stubborn in his views, so here he shows that he'll go for pubby... if the IC wants it. EVEN THEN he feels compelled to weigh in and tip the scales toward swowl.

Why on earth would I vote Swowl when my #1 top scum read is currently trying to push the conversation toward that?? It would be stupid!
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on September 02, 2021, 08:16:28 pm
Ö. Aaaand 1 member viewing thread. Fantastic.

I always chill in Recent Posts.

Iím going to be coaching starting in 15 minutes. Will still be on mobile but wonít be full access until 30 to deadline.

I would prefer others show up and help make EFHW happen. Based off the other two wagons, you and I could put either at L-1 if needed, which would only require 1 other non member of those wagons to be here. If we donít have movements by 30 to deadline I will follow you to whichever of Pubby/swowl you prefer.

Based on the current wagons I would lean Swowl before pubby personally.

Look at this!!! Look how carefully he shares that he might be willing to do a pubby exile. He KNOWS that MiX doesn't want to exile pubby. He's RELYING ON IT. But he also knows he can't be completely stubborn in his views, so here he shows that he'll go for pubby... if the IC wants it. EVEN THEN he feels compelled to weigh in and tip the scales toward swowl.

Why on earth would I vote Swowl when my #1 top scum read is currently trying to push the conversation toward that?? It would be stupid!

What? Galzria is voting EFHW, and said they would vote Swowl before pubby. He mentioned these 3 because those are the current wagons.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: iguanaiguana on September 02, 2021, 08:18:55 pm
PLEASE!!! Look at this wagon again!

Vote Count 1.?.MiX

Galzria (6): faust, WestCoastDidds, EFHW, Awaclus, Glooble, iguanaiguana
2.71828.... (3): Swowl, mathdude, Dylan32
iguanaiguana (1): pubby
Glooble (1): Galzria

No exile (2): 2.71828...., MiX

Galz is sitting at L-1. faust, WCD, EFHW could all be scum. However, after e's claim a surge of votes comes in: Awaclus, Glooble, iguanaiguana. Awaclus was town! I was town! I believe that Glooble is town! So three town votes take Galzria from safe territory into striking distance of being exiled... and it does not go hammer! Instead, Dylan comes in and argues on Galz's behalf, and Galz argues on his own behalf... and we move back toward e. And we exile town! Why should I think this was T v T when the wagon was created by a huge surge in likely town votes?
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: iguanaiguana on September 02, 2021, 08:20:54 pm
I really strongly feel that wagon analysis of that wagon should have made today about Galzria vs. Glooble, especially once the majority of people began to read me as town. I have no idea why it has gone the way it did instead.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: iguanaiguana on September 02, 2021, 08:21:47 pm
ESPECIALLY ESPECIALLY because ... to be frank... EFHW, faust, and WCD all also strike me as towny! I don't know!! But I think so!!
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on September 02, 2021, 08:22:15 pm
I really strongly feel that wagon analysis of that wagon should have made today about Galzria vs. Glooble, especially once the majority of people began to read me as town. I have no idea why it has gone the way it did instead.

Because no one made the wagon analysis?

ESPECIALLY ESPECIALLY because ... to be frank... EFHW, faust, and WCD all also strike me as towny! I don't know!! But I think so!!

They're not all town lol.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: iguanaiguana on September 02, 2021, 08:22:39 pm
Request prod on pubby
Request prod on Mathdude


I don't want them kicked out. But please mod can you send them a message and ask them to come back to the game?

I posted Monday morning, saying I was away from internet access and should be back late Thursday afternoon. I'm here now.

Please vote!
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: iguanaiguana on September 02, 2021, 08:23:22 pm
I really strongly feel that wagon analysis of that wagon should have made today about Galzria vs. Glooble, especially once the majority of people began to read me as town. I have no idea why it has gone the way it did instead.

Because no one made the wagon analysis?

ESPECIALLY ESPECIALLY because ... to be frank... EFHW, faust, and WCD all also strike me as towny! I don't know!! But I think so!!

They're not all town lol.

I made the wagon analysis! In the thread!!!! Do people not read my posts because they're TOO LONG?
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on September 02, 2021, 08:24:23 pm
I really strongly feel that wagon analysis of that wagon should have made today about Galzria vs. Glooble, especially once the majority of people began to read me as town. I have no idea why it has gone the way it did instead.

Because no one made the wagon analysis?

ESPECIALLY ESPECIALLY because ... to be frank... EFHW, faust, and WCD all also strike me as towny! I don't know!! But I think so!!

They're not all town lol.

I made the wagon analysis! In the thread!!!! Do people not read my posts because they're TOO LONG?

Hmm, yes.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: iguanaiguana on September 02, 2021, 08:24:30 pm
I really strongly feel that wagon analysis of that wagon should have made today about Galzria vs. Glooble, especially once the majority of people began to read me as town. I have no idea why it has gone the way it did instead.

Because no one made the wagon analysis?

ESPECIALLY ESPECIALLY because ... to be frank... EFHW, faust, and WCD all also strike me as towny! I don't know!! But I think so!!

They're not all town lol.

Maybe not... but if we got 6 town votes on Galz on D1 and he didn't die... the guy is SCUM. Those people are my town reads! Independently of that wagon, those people are my town reads! WE NEED TO EXILE GALZ
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on September 02, 2021, 08:25:51 pm
I really strongly feel that wagon analysis of that wagon should have made today about Galzria vs. Glooble, especially once the majority of people began to read me as town. I have no idea why it has gone the way it did instead.

Because no one made the wagon analysis?

ESPECIALLY ESPECIALLY because ... to be frank... EFHW, faust, and WCD all also strike me as towny! I don't know!! But I think so!!

They're not all town lol.

Maybe not... but if we got 6 town votes on Galz on D1 and he didn't die... the guy is SCUM. Those people are my town reads! Independently of that wagon, those people are my town reads! WE NEED TO EXILE GALZ

You can vote for him. It doesn't change that we don't have the votes.

Everyone who is here should post once now, by the way.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: iguanaiguana on September 02, 2021, 08:26:28 pm
Also, Dylan... who has been lurking and off and on defending Galz. And who was defending pubby for a longass time before a lot of scrutiny was on him and he finally changed.

Also pubby... who has been lurking and LITERALLY IGNORING GALZRIA AND DYLAN. faust even said to pubby "It seems like your theory of GID is predicated on Galzria being town, but I don't see any evidence for Galz being town." and pubby just STRAIGHT IGNORED THAT.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Galzria on September 02, 2021, 08:27:46 pm
I really strongly feel that wagon analysis of that wagon should have made today about Galzria vs. Glooble, especially once the majority of people began to read me as town. I have no idea why it has gone the way it did instead.

Because no one made the wagon analysis?

ESPECIALLY ESPECIALLY because ... to be frank... EFHW, faust, and WCD all also strike me as towny! I don't know!! But I think so!!

They're not all town lol.

Maybe not... but if we got 6 town votes on Galz on D1 and he didn't die... the guy is SCUM. Those people are my town reads! Independently of that wagon, those people are my town reads! WE NEED TO EXILE GALZ

You can vote for him. It doesn't change that we don't have the votes.

Everyone who is here should post once now, by the way.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: iguanaiguana on September 02, 2021, 08:29:46 pm

What? Galzria is voting EFHW, and said they would vote Swowl before pubby. He mentioned these 3 because those are the current wagons.

Right, Galzria is nudging the IC to think that today has to be about EFHW, Swowl, or pubby... and preferably EFHW or Swowl.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on September 02, 2021, 08:30:50 pm

What? Galzria is voting EFHW, and said they would vote Swowl before pubby. He mentioned these 3 because those are the current wagons.

Right, Galzria is nudging the IC to think that today has to be about EFHW, Swowl, or pubby... and preferably EFHW or Swowl.

No, the vote count is. And the people that are active.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: iguanaiguana on September 02, 2021, 08:33:15 pm
Look... is there any possible way I can convince you to vote pubby? I'm gonna go dig up some of the bananas stuff he said... maybe that'll do it.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on September 02, 2021, 08:34:17 pm
Look... is there any possible way I can convince you to vote pubby? I'm gonna go dig up some of the bananas stuff he said... maybe that'll do it.

Yes.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: iguanaiguana on September 02, 2021, 08:35:52 pm
Okay, I don't know if this is bad play or not... and I hate that I have to do this... but there isn't much time left.


Glooble and I are masons. Glooble is FRICKEN TOWN SO AM I
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: iguanaiguana on September 02, 2021, 08:36:20 pm
PUBBY PUSHES HIS STUPID GID CASE ON THE MASONS
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: WestCoastDidds on September 02, 2021, 08:36:32 pm
Iíd vote for Galz, and Iím here
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: iguanaiguana on September 02, 2021, 08:38:30 pm
Day 1 mass claim is a bad plan.

Getting some wagons started early is a good plan.

vote: pubby for reasons.

Oh, I don't know why the reasons are!!! MAYBE BECAUSE PUBBY VOTED HIS PARTNER AND HE'S BREADCRUMBING MASONS
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: iguanaiguana on September 02, 2021, 08:39:17 pm
Pubby spends FOREVER AND FOREVER DOING NOTHING BUT VOTING MASONS AND SUSPECTING TOWNY TOWNY DIDDS! HE IS SCUM!
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on September 02, 2021, 08:40:49 pm
Okay, I don't know if this is bad play or not... and I hate that I have to do this... but there isn't much time left.


Glooble and I are masons. Glooble is FRICKEN TOWN SO AM I

Did I tell you to claim?

I know for a fact Glooble did not want you to do that.

Why the hell did you complain about being townread?
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Glooble on September 02, 2021, 08:41:26 pm
Here and willing to vote Dylan or Galz.

vote: Galz
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on September 02, 2021, 08:41:38 pm
iguana, it's not the fact that I thought you could ever be scum that stopped me from voting pubby. It's that I think you're completely tunneled on someone I'm pretty sure is town.

This claim is stupidly anti town.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on September 02, 2021, 08:42:46 pm
I honestly feel like ghosting for the rest of this day because no matter what flip we get we have irredeemably lost this day already because of this completely unecessary egocentric play that served no purpose.

Why am I here if you can just make terrible decisions on your own?
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Galzria on September 02, 2021, 08:43:51 pm
Well thatís awkward because I was pinging WCD/faust to be Masons. Hum.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: iguanaiguana on September 02, 2021, 08:43:57 pm
iguana, it's not the fact that I thought you could ever be scum that stopped me from voting pubby. It's that I think you're completely tunneled on someone I'm pretty sure is town.

This claim is stupidly anti town.

It's infuriating to try to explain to you why someone is scum when the case isn't based on the fact that I'm town... the case is based on the fact that Glooble is town! Look at Galz and pubby! They do TONS AND TONS of defending each other and TONS AND TONS of suspecting Glooble and Iguana! Of course they suspect us! We've been acting partnery and they think they can misexile us! But w'ere not scum partners, we're masons!
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on September 02, 2021, 08:44:49 pm
Literally my top 3 town are you, Glooble and pubby.

You were already cleared for high posting and obviously solving.

Glooble was cleared D1 when they explained their reasons to vote.

pubby's cleared by being high effort and trying to actually solve the game.

I'm kinda tilted right now.

iguana, it's not the fact that I thought you could ever be scum that stopped me from voting pubby. It's that I think you're completely tunneled on someone I'm pretty sure is town.

This claim is stupidly anti town.

It's infuriating to try to explain to you why someone is scum when the case isn't based on the fact that I'm town... the case is based on the fact that Glooble is town! Look at Galz and pubby! They do TONS AND TONS of defending each other and TONS AND TONS of suspecting Glooble and Iguana! Of course they suspect us! We've been acting partnery and they think they can misexile us! But w'ere not scum partners, we're masons!

We all knew Glooble was town.

There is absolutely nothing scummy about identifying masons. It means they're scumhunting. For me, it clears pubby.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: WestCoastDidds on September 02, 2021, 08:44:55 pm
MiX! Someone makes your head explode more than me!
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: iguanaiguana on September 02, 2021, 08:45:11 pm
I honestly feel like ghosting for the rest of this day because no matter what flip we get we have irredeemably lost this day already because of this completely unecessary egocentric play that served no purpose.

Why am I here if you can just make terrible decisions on your own?

Look, I had to make a calculation. You didn't understand my arguments at all. I COULD NOT convince you! You needed to know that Glooble is town! Now calm down, look at the vote counts given that Glooble and Iguana are town... and find the scum!
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on September 02, 2021, 08:45:56 pm
Well thatís awkward because I was pinging WCD/faust to be Masons. Hum.

They're not masons because they're not actually working together publicly but they're defending each other.

I honestly feel like ghosting for the rest of this day because no matter what flip we get we have irredeemably lost this day already because of this completely unecessary egocentric play that served no purpose.

Why am I here if you can just make terrible decisions on your own?

Look, I had to make a calculation. You didn't understand my arguments at all. I COULD NOT convince you! You needed to know that Glooble is town! Now calm down, look at the vote counts given that Glooble and Iguana are town... and find the scum!

I'm not the person you need to convince, and I was already convinced.

I found the scum, it's EFHW, lol, but I will vote for whoever you vote for consolidation.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on September 02, 2021, 08:46:49 pm
MiX! Someone makes your head explode more than me!

You're right.

I should calm down. Only you get to have that privilege.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: WestCoastDidds on September 02, 2021, 08:47:17 pm
Okay, it seems like there is some consensus that pubby is probably town, yeah?

So, iguana why are Swowl and EFHW off the table for you?

What about Galz?
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: WestCoastDidds on September 02, 2021, 08:47:56 pm
MiX! Someone makes your head explode more than me!

You're right.

I should calm down. Only you get to have that privilege.

I at least know when I might cause blood pressure spikes! ❤️
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: iguanaiguana on September 02, 2021, 08:48:08 pm
Yes!!! Last minute Galz please!

Vote: Galzria
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: WestCoastDidds on September 02, 2021, 08:48:40 pm
MiX? Galz or no?
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: iguanaiguana on September 02, 2021, 08:49:11 pm
Vote Count 1.?.MiX

Galzria (6): faust, WestCoastDidds, EFHW, TOWN!Awaclus, TOWN!Glooble, TOWN!iguanaiguana
2.71828.... (3): Swowl, mathdude, Dylan32
iguanaiguana (1): pubby
Glooble (1): Galzria

No exile (2): TOWN!2.71828...., TOWN!MiX

Dude SURGES to L-1 because of a random last minute swap from THREE TOWNS! Then... it does NOT GO HAMMER! He's scum!
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on September 02, 2021, 08:51:05 pm
Day 1 mass claim is a bad plan.

Getting some wagons started early is a good plan.

vote: pubby for reasons.

Oh, I don't know why the reasons are!!! MAYBE BECAUSE PUBBY VOTED HIS PARTNER AND HE'S BREADCRUMBING MASONS

Oh my god Glooble. Yeah, yeah the reasons were as bad as Glooble claimed.

Why would you soft a PR this early...I mean I guess it made Glooble confirmed town but like.

I really hate all of this.

I'll update my VCA with this information though.

Vote Count 1.?.MiX

Galzria (6): faust, WestCoastDidds, EFHW, TOWN!Awaclus, TOWN!Glooble, TOWN!iguanaiguana
2.71828.... (3): Swowl, mathdude, Dylan32
iguanaiguana (1): pubby
Glooble (1): Galzria

No exile (2): TOWN!2.71828...., TOWN!MiX

Dude SURGES to L-1 because of a random last minute swap from THREE TOWNS! Then... it does NOT GO HAMMER! He's scum!

Would scum always hammer there? Why?
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Dylan32 on September 02, 2021, 08:51:32 pm
Literally my top 3 town are you, Glooble and pubby.

You were already cleared for high posting and obviously solving.

Glooble was cleared D1 when they explained their reasons to vote.

pubby's cleared by being high effort and trying to actually solve the game.

I'm kinda tilted right now.

iguana, it's not the fact that I thought you could ever be scum that stopped me from voting pubby. It's that I think you're completely tunneled on someone I'm pretty sure is town.

This claim is stupidly anti town.

It's infuriating to try to explain to you why someone is scum when the case isn't based on the fact that I'm town... the case is based on the fact that Glooble is town! Look at Galz and pubby! They do TONS AND TONS of defending each other and TONS AND TONS of suspecting Glooble and Iguana! Of course they suspect us! We've been acting partnery and they think they can misexile us! But w'ere not scum partners, we're masons!

We all knew Glooble was town.

There is absolutely nothing scummy about identifying masons. It means they're scumhunting. For me, it clears pubby.

Pubby literally has 11 posts in the entire freaking thread, include pregame... How is that high effort?? What game are you reading?
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: WestCoastDidds on September 02, 2021, 08:52:11 pm
We still have an hour right? Deadline is at 10?

Vote Count 2.didds

pubby (2): EFHW, Dylan32
EFHW (3): MiX, Galzria, Swowl
Swowl (2): faust, WestCoastDidds
Glooble (1): pubby
Galz (2): Glooble, iguana,

Not voting (1): mathdude
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on September 02, 2021, 08:52:34 pm
Literally my top 3 town are you, Glooble and pubby.

You were already cleared for high posting and obviously solving.

Glooble was cleared D1 when they explained their reasons to vote.

pubby's cleared by being high effort and trying to actually solve the game.

I'm kinda tilted right now.

iguana, it's not the fact that I thought you could ever be scum that stopped me from voting pubby. It's that I think you're completely tunneled on someone I'm pretty sure is town.

This claim is stupidly anti town.

It's infuriating to try to explain to you why someone is scum when the case isn't based on the fact that I'm town... the case is based on the fact that Glooble is town! Look at Galz and pubby! They do TONS AND TONS of defending each other and TONS AND TONS of suspecting Glooble and Iguana! Of course they suspect us! We've been acting partnery and they think they can misexile us! But w'ere not scum partners, we're masons!

We all knew Glooble was town.

There is absolutely nothing scummy about identifying masons. It means they're scumhunting. For me, it clears pubby.

Pubby literally has 11 posts in the entire freaking thread, include pregame... How is that high effort?? What game are you reading?

I'm reading the game of pubby wall posts.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: Galzria on September 02, 2021, 08:52:59 pm
I need to circle back to WCD/faust with this but no time now. 100% EFHW is scum though.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: EFHW on September 02, 2021, 08:53:12 pm
Need more EFHW votes.
Any response to my critique of your reason for voting me?
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: EFHW on September 02, 2021, 08:53:42 pm
I need to circle back to WCD/faust with this but no time now. 100% EFHW is scum though.

There must be more to your case, then.
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: MiX on September 02, 2021, 08:53:54 pm
All Glooble scumreaders: why.

EFHW, what are your reads again?
Title: Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
Post by: iguanaiguana on