Dominion Strategy Forum

Dominion => Variants and Fan Cards => Weekly Design Contest => Topic started by: Mahowrath on March 13, 2021, 07:33:35 pm

Title: Weekly Design Contest #108: How Deep is your Pile?
Post by: Mahowrath on March 13, 2021, 07:33:35 pm
Weekly Design Contest #108: How Deep is your Pile? (hopefully not 10 deep)

Hey everyone, hope you're well. Without further ado:

I'm looking for cards or card shaped objects, that either come in a supply pile of not 10 cards, or interact with pile(s)/deck(s) outside of the supply, of not 10 cards.

Examples are: Rats (20 cards in pile), Port (12 cards in pile), Alt VPs (8 or 12 cards in pile), Tournament (Prize pile), Travellers (non-supply piles of 5), Black Market (Black Market Deck) and Fates/Dooms (Boons/Hexes piles of 12).
Non-examples are: Magpie (10 cards in pile), Urchin (10 cards in Urchin and Mercenary piles), Pooka/Cursed Gold (Heirlooms not interactable piles out of supply), Delay (no such affiliated pile/deck), Catapult/Rocks (still a 10 card supply pile).


Deadline: Entries by 23:59 (GMT) Saturday 20th. Will put out a 24-hour reminder Friday night, and list the nominations I've seen.

I'll be checking back frequently to answer questions, clear up ambiguity, and let people know if their entries aren't eligible. Feel free to ping me questions.


Judgement will be me looking over the entries and picking out the one(s) I like most at the time of judging.
Rough criteria for liking cards:

Good luck!

Addendum: I've made the ruling that your starting deck can be the not-10-card deck outside of the supply interacted with, if you wish to make a card that alters its starting size
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #108: How Deep is your Pile?
Post by: spineflu on March 13, 2021, 09:23:26 pm
I've got a weird preliminary entry that i'm not sure I wanna stick with

EDIT: this is withdrawn; my new entry is here (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20714.msg864481#msg864481)

(https://trello-attachments.s3.amazonaws.com/5d34c84e360a440d0d16278b/604d70da5f0e7c0a9aebd69a/e2b6a962a917444aca070ff24b3f1531/image.png)
Quote
Succession • @6* • Confusion
When you gain this, if it's your turn and you don't have a marker on the Succession pile, +% equal to the amount of debt you have and place your marker on the pile; if it's not your turn, +6%.

When this pile is empty, the game ends.

This costs @1 less for each marker on its pile.

Pile size is variable - number of players, plus one.
Markers referred to are a player-specific geegaw, like the project cubes. You only get VP the first time you buy it - if you're buying to empty the pile,

Card type is kind of a deep cut to early dominion (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Confusion) outtakes (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8619.msg261142#msg261142) - it doesn't do anything but take up space in your deck once its in there.

The "if it's not your turn" is as an ambassador counter - otherwise its too easy to buy one, return the rest to the pile, no one else gets VP and the game ends.

This probably needs tweaking - very open to feedback + opinions.
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #108: How Deep is your Pile?
Post by: X-tra on March 13, 2021, 10:13:02 pm
Technically, any Victory card posted here would count, right? They either have 8 or 12 cards in them, and not 10. Would this count (just making sure)?
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #108: How Deep is your Pile?
Post by: mxdata on March 13, 2021, 10:22:59 pm
I take it there needs to be a good reason for having something other than 10 cards?  I.e., just making a random card and saying "there's 12 of these in the pile" wouldn't work?

Would split piles count, since there's only 5 of each part, or would they not count since it's still a pile with 10 cards?
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #108: How Deep is your Pile?
Post by: pubby on March 14, 2021, 12:40:52 am
(https://i.imgur.com/hLiT8wq.png)
There's no Dolmen pile. They just go under all the other piles. A pile isn't empty unless its Dolmen card is bought.
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #108: How Deep is your Pile?
Post by: emtzalex on March 14, 2021, 01:44:35 am
(https://i.imgur.com/8UILxX6.png)
There's no Dolmen pile. They just go under all the other piles.

Wouldn't that meant there are 10 of them (barring Looters/Young Witch)?
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #108: How Deep is your Pile?
Post by: spineflu on March 14, 2021, 06:33:29 am
(https://i.imgur.com/8UILxX6.png)
There's no Dolmen pile. They just go under all the other piles.

Wouldn't that meant there are 10 of them (barring Looters/Young Witch)?
supply, not kingdom. so 17 at minimum, potentially 22 if potions/colonies/yw/looters
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #108: How Deep is your Pile?
Post by: Holger on March 14, 2021, 06:57:47 am
(https://i.imgur.com/8UILxX6.png)
There's no Dolmen pile. They just go under all the other piles.

I suppose a pile doesn't count as empty when the Dolmen card remains?
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #108: How Deep is your Pile?
Post by: Mahowrath on March 14, 2021, 08:25:19 am
Technically, any Victory card posted here would count, right? They either have 8 or 12 cards in them, and not 10. Would this count (just making sure)?
Yes, any victory card pile is eligible. I didn't want to make this contest too exclusionary, but considering "style in meeting the requirement": submissions like Rats would have potential to score more highly than say Gardens.

I take it there needs to be a good reason for having something other than 10 cards?  I.e., just making a random card and saying "there's 12 of these in the pile" wouldn't work?

Would split piles count, since there's only 5 of each part, or would they not count since it's still a pile with 10 cards?
A good reason for changing the pile amount would be appreciated; I'll be analysing for this, and no one likes complexity for complexity's sake.
A Split pile like Catapult/Rocks is ineligible, thanks for checking. I'll add that to the original post.
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #108: How Deep is your Pile?
Post by: Aquila on March 14, 2021, 02:04:15 pm
(https://trello-attachments.s3.amazonaws.com/5e88b5ebdca4eb2a73be5eec/5e88dfe3f4668952615c7370/a150a2a971d58943b31b332ac6f4e5bf/ResourceFruit.png)(https://trello-attachments.s3.amazonaws.com/5e88b5ebdca4eb2a73be5eec/5e88dfe3f4668952615c7370/d42e8414c172eb887394836d1d1b94bf/ResourceOre.png)(https://trello-attachments.s3.amazonaws.com/5e88b5ebdca4eb2a73be5eec/5e88dfe3f4668952615c7370/c48ae2f35453e066445cf9864d5dd2c3/ResourceRefuge.png)(https://trello-attachments.s3.amazonaws.com/5e88b5ebdca4eb2a73be5eec/5e88dfe3f4668952615c7370/a10d95ad573abb7a28735a2e1acc8ef4/ResourceWaterSource.png)(https://trello-attachments.s3.amazonaws.com/5e88b5ebdca4eb2a73be5eec/5e88dfe3f4668952615c7370/501fd945b621df40912ed5ee8371d7c1/ResourceWood.png)
Quote
Resources - all Action Resource type, $2 cost.
Fruit - You may play an Action card that costs more than this from your hand. Then, +2 Cards.
Ore - +1 Action, + $2
Refuge - +1 Card, +2 Actions, Discard a card.
Water Source - +1 Card, +1 Action, If you have exactly 5 cards in hand, trash one of them.
Wood - +1 Card, +1 Action, +1 Buy
These Resources are a Supply pile that behave just like Ruins. 10 of each, shuffled at game start and only the top is seen. But unlike Ruins, all 50 are used in every game (see Expedition Camp). They're designed to create a bit of randomness whilst letting every kind of engine component be available in a game.
To lessen the randomness a bit, when you buy (not gain) a Resource, you look at the top 2 from the pile and pick one. If you choose the second one down, the top one goes to the bottom of the pile.

And a card that adds the Resources to the Supply, with the Gatherer type:
(https://trello-attachments.s3.amazonaws.com/5e88b5ebdca4eb2a73be5eec/5eb963da95efc554dda9d30c/6762e0f5829069c4ee144b74b70eedea/Expedition_Camp.png)
Quote
Expedition Camp - Action Duration Gatherer, $4 cost.
If this is the first Expedition camp you've played this turn and the previous turn wasn't yours, take another turn after this one, and you draw 5 fewer cards for your next hand.
At the start of that turn, you may trash this to gain 3 Resources to your hand.
An Outpost variant that can be trashed for a random hand of 3 cards on the bonus turn. Only the first Expedition Camp played on a turn gives the bonus turn, but each extra Camp played can be trashed on the bonus turn for 3 more Resources to hand.
This needs at least 30 Resources in the pile to fully function no matter how many players there are. 50 lets Lurkers/Graverobbers enable more plays.

Here's a simpler auxiliary Gatherer card, not my submission if only one kingdom pile is to be judged, to demonstrate how there can be different Gatherers (and if there are multiple in a game, 50 Resources are more justified)
(https://trello-attachments.s3.amazonaws.com/5e88b5ebdca4eb2a73be5eec/5e89bbf389030c1899d8274a/8fc8b257af95bea330010d9f41bfae1a/Subsidy.png)
Quote
Subsidy - Action Gatherer, $5 cost.
+1 Buy
+ $1 per $1 you've produced with Actions other than Subsidy this turn.
Duplicate the $ all your other Actions have made. All the Resources help support it in some way, but the order of the Resources may dictate how relevant it becomes to a game. You have to buy the Resources yourself or gain them with another Gatherer.

Edit: amends to a hasty first post. Added the when buy rule to Resources (for better or worse), and the Resources are added to the 'Supply' with the Gatherer type. Thanks gambit for spotting it.
Edit 2: Changed Subsidy from doubling all $ to just those your other Actions have produced. Necessary nerf and Capitalism-proofing.
Edit 3: Added Expedition Camp as the primary card to judge.
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #108: How Deep is your Pile?
Post by: gambit05 on March 14, 2021, 02:32:51 pm

Shouldn't Subsidy say something like "Gain a Resource."?
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #108: How Deep is your Pile?
Post by: spineflu on March 14, 2021, 02:36:20 pm

Shouldn't Subsidy say something like "Gain a Resource."?

Maybe it just adds them to the kingdom so you can buy them?
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #108: How Deep is your Pile?
Post by: gambit05 on March 14, 2021, 02:41:56 pm

Shouldn't Subsidy say something like "Gain a Resource."?

Maybe it just adds them to the kingdom so you can buy them?

Yes, that is a possibility. I was confused about the statement "And a card that adds the Resources to the pile, with the Gatherer type:", especially "pile". Aquila probably means Kingdom. Edit: Kingdom doesn't work, it should be "Supply" or "board".

Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #108: How Deep is your Pile?
Post by: gambit05 on March 14, 2021, 03:01:53 pm

Updated Submission:

(https://i.ibb.co/LxwJ0RK/Revenant.png)   
Revenant
$2 - Action
Quote

+2 Actions
+1 Buy

  You may set this aside. If you
    do, +1 Card per empty Supply   
pile and return it to the Supply
 at the start of Clean-up.
--------------------------
Setup: 3 copies per player.


Minor functions: A cheap card that can provide Actions and an extra Buy, features important in many Kingdoms and player’s decks that should not be undervalued.
Revenant can be activated for additional card drawing when Supply piles are empty.

Main function: The ability to manipulate how many Supply piles are empty and thus, having some control over ending the game via 3 empty piles. This can be achieved by gaining Revenants, and by playing and returning them or not.

A note to the tactical use:
A player, who wants to force ending the game by 3 empty piles, or who just wants to have an empty pile for activating other cards (e.g. City, Paddock) tries to empty the Revenant pile or, if already empty, wants to keep it empty by not returning their Revenants to it. On the contrary, a player, who does not want to end the game via 3 empty piles or who does not want to activate other cards, tries to avoid an empty Revenant pile.
Additional options to manipulate the Revenant pile are trashing, remodeling, Exiling (particularly interesting), and (in a few cases) gaining Revenants back from the trash as well as cost reduction of cards.



My Original Submission:

(https://i.ibb.co/xF23MVM/Revenant.png)   
Revenant
$2 - Action

Quote

+2 Actions
+1 Buy


  +1 Card per empty Supply pile. 

Return this to the Supply at
the start of Clean-up.
---------------------------
Setup: 2 copies per player.

Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #108: How Deep is your Pile?
Post by: BBobb on March 14, 2021, 03:29:27 pm

My Submission:

(https://i.ibb.co/xF23MVM/Revenant.png)   
Revenant
$2 - Action
Quote

+2 Actions
+1 Buy



  +1 Card per empty Supply pile. 

Return this to the Supply at
the start of Clean-up.
---------------------------
Setup: 2 copies per player.

Just wondering, but why cant this have a normal pile size?
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #108: How Deep is your Pile?
Post by: Gubump on March 14, 2021, 03:37:11 pm

My Submission:

(https://i.ibb.co/xF23MVM/Revenant.png)   
Revenant
$2 - Action
Quote

+2 Actions
+1 Buy


  +1 Card per empty Supply pile. 

Return this to the Supply at
the start of Clean-up.
---------------------------
Setup: 2 copies per player.


I think this would compare terribly to Encampment even if it always gave +2 Cards. +1 Buy doesn't really make up for the fact that there's no way to avoid it being a one-shot.
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #108: How Deep is your Pile?
Post by: mxdata on March 14, 2021, 03:43:32 pm

My Submission:

(https://i.ibb.co/xF23MVM/Revenant.png)   
Revenant
$2 - Action
Quote

+2 Actions
+1 Buy


  +1 Card per empty Supply pile. 

Return this to the Supply at
the start of Clean-up.
---------------------------
Setup: 2 copies per player.


Why "at the start of clean-up" rather than when played, like most one-shots?
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #108: How Deep is your Pile?
Post by: pubby on March 14, 2021, 04:00:00 pm
I suppose a pile doesn't count as empty when the Dolmen card remains?
Yeah that's correct.
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #108: How Deep is your Pile?
Post by: gambit05 on March 14, 2021, 04:51:15 pm

Just wondering, but why cant this have a normal pile size?

There are 2 reasons: 1) To make it easier to activate Revenant (empty pile). 2) With a low Revenant pile, there is always the tactical possibility of 3-piling.

Why "at the start of clean-up" rather than when played, like most one-shots?

Imagine that the pile is empty and a player has 2 copies of Revenant in hand:
Now when they play the first one they get +1 Card (assuming no other pile is empty). If that Revenant would go immediately back to its pile, then 1) the second Revenant wouldn't get the draw and 2) the player could gain back the Revenant in their Buy phase. However, if played Revenants are returned to their pile after the Buy phase, the second Revenant also gets also +1 Card (due to the Revenant pile still being empty) and the player cannot gain those Revenants back.

I think this would compare terribly to Encampment even if it always gave +2 Cards. +1 Buy doesn't really make up for the fact that there's no way to avoid it being a one-shot.

Don't underestimate +1 Buy on a cheap card. Many Kingdoms don't have that available. Please also read what I've replied to the other questions (above). Anyway, do you think Encampment is strictly better? Would you always prefer Encampment over Reverant?

Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #108: How Deep is your Pile?
Post by: X-tra on March 14, 2021, 05:11:34 pm
I'm going to attempt something really silly, probably broken (and untested on top of that)! I might withdraw it in the situation where the good people of this forum makes it really obvious to me that it's broken/not working as intended :) . Anyway, here goes nothing:

(https://i.postimg.cc/25QQ7hQk/Institute-v1.png)     (https://i.postimg.cc/Hx3bfmvF/Grant-v1.png)

Institute can be a non-terminal Smithy if it draws you 3 Treasures/Victory cards. Big Money dudes are happy. You start with a deck of 15 cards. 3 turns until the first shuffle instead of 2. Your opening split could be (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/7/7d/Coin5.png/16px-Coin5.png)/(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/7/7d/Coin5.png/16px-Coin5.png)/(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/3/3d/Coin2.png/16px-Coin2.png); or (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/7/7d/Coin5.png/16px-Coin5.png)/(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/2/2a/Coin4.png/16px-Coin4.png)/(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/3/32/Coin3.png/16px-Coin3.png); or (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/2/2a/Coin4.png/16px-Coin4.png)/(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/2/2a/Coin4.png/16px-Coin4.png)/(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/2/2a/Coin4.png/16px-Coin4.png). Or it could be none of that should you want to trash the junk-y Grants instead of taking their money. If you do, well, your deck is leaner, yay! But adieu, cool opening splits (and adieu 1(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/9/92/VP.png/16px-VP.png) too, I guess).
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #108: How Deep is your Pile?
Post by: Xen3k on March 14, 2021, 05:34:52 pm
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51037297691_9b5eeef303_b.jpg)

This is a 26 card Kingdom pile.
Quote
Pigeon - $4
Action
+1 Action
+$1
You may discard a Pigeon for +1 Card and +$1. Otherwise, gain a Pigeon.
----
Setup: Place a Nest token on each supply pile. When you buy a card, if a Nest token is on that pile, discard the Nest token and gain a Pigeon.

A Rats-like card that is almost guaranteed to get into your deck. It is not altogether detrimental like Rats, but it is not very helpful. Probably even beneficial if trash-for-benefit cards are in the Kingdom. I chose 26 as I wanted to really ensure there are good chances you will gain a Pigeon even late game when buying the first Province. The tokens used could really be anything, but I went with "Nest" just for flavor.
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #108: How Deep is your Pile?
Post by: Gubump on March 14, 2021, 06:16:26 pm
I'm going to attempt something really silly, probably broken (and untested on top of that)! I might withdraw it in the situation where the good people of this forum makes it really obvious to me that it's broken/not working as intended :) . Anyway, here goes nothing:

(https://i.postimg.cc/25QQ7hQk/Institute-v1.png)     (https://i.postimg.cc/Hx3bfmvF/Grant-v1.png)

Institute can be a non-terminal Smithy if it draws you 3 Treasures/Victory cards. Big Money dudes are happy. You start with a deck of 15 cards. 3 turns until the first shuffle instead of 2. Your opening split could be (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/7/7d/Coin5.png/16px-Coin5.png)/(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/7/7d/Coin5.png/16px-Coin5.png)/(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/3/3d/Coin2.png/16px-Coin2.png); or (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/7/7d/Coin5.png/16px-Coin5.png)/(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/2/2a/Coin4.png/16px-Coin4.png)/(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/3/32/Coin3.png/16px-Coin3.png); or (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/2/2a/Coin4.png/16px-Coin4.png)/(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/2/2a/Coin4.png/16px-Coin4.png)/(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/2/2a/Coin4.png/16px-Coin4.png). Or it could be none of that should you want to trash the junk-y Grants instead of taking their money. If you do, well, your deck is leaner, yay! But adieu, cool opening splits (and adieu 1(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/9/92/VP.png/16px-VP.png) too, I guess).

Since Mahowrath updvoted this post, implying that it qualifies, I take it that making your starting deck not 10-cards qualifies?
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #108: How Deep is your Pile?
Post by: spineflu on March 14, 2021, 06:19:26 pm
Mentally I keep coming back to this quote and wondering if I'm drastically overthinking this contest.
For a while I liked the idea of a village with 20 cards in its pile, with no special connection to the pile being 20 cards. You know, it wouldn't gain copies of itself or anything, there would just be 20 of them. The idea was, for multiplayer, you put in this card and you are set for villages. So many multiplayer games, if there aren't two village piles, you have to build a deck that doesn't need very many villages. But uh surely the multiplayer players know about this already? They must be putting in those villages or living without them already, that's what I think. And it ate up a slot that stopped seeming so available, I could have a pretty 30 kingdom cards 20 events 20 ways. I came up with a lot of villages trying to be the good 20-card village; many were bad, some have potential but were no good for a 20-card pile, and some got tried out. In the end I did Village Green for this slot.

Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #108: How Deep is your Pile?
Post by: BBobb on March 14, 2021, 06:43:37 pm
I'm going to attempt something really silly, probably broken (and untested on top of that)! I might withdraw it in the situation where the good people of this forum makes it really obvious to me that it's broken/not working as intended :) . Anyway, here goes nothing:

(https://i.postimg.cc/25QQ7hQk/Institute-v1.png)     (https://i.postimg.cc/Hx3bfmvF/Grant-v1.png)

Institute can be a non-terminal Smithy if it draws you 3 Treasures/Victory cards. Big Money dudes are happy. You start with a deck of 15 cards. 3 turns until the first shuffle instead of 2. Your opening split could be (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/7/7d/Coin5.png/16px-Coin5.png)/(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/7/7d/Coin5.png/16px-Coin5.png)/(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/3/3d/Coin2.png/16px-Coin2.png); or (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/7/7d/Coin5.png/16px-Coin5.png)/(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/2/2a/Coin4.png/16px-Coin4.png)/(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/3/32/Coin3.png/16px-Coin3.png); or (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/2/2a/Coin4.png/16px-Coin4.png)/(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/2/2a/Coin4.png/16px-Coin4.png)/(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/2/2a/Coin4.png/16px-Coin4.png). Or it could be none of that should you want to trash the junk-y Grants instead of taking their money. If you do, well, your deck is leaner, yay! But adieu, cool opening splits (and adieu 1(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/9/92/VP.png/16px-VP.png) too, I guess).
I think that this is a really cool idea. The only thing is, it is almost strictly better than Scout. I don't find it a problem since Scout sucks and is removed, but I just wanted to mention it.
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #108: How Deep is your Pile?
Post by: Mahowrath on March 14, 2021, 06:46:35 pm
Since Mahowrath updvoted this post, implying that it qualifies, I take it that making your starting deck not 10-cards qualifies?

Yes, to be clear: I've made the ruling that your starting deck can be the not-10-card deck outside of the supply interacted with, if you wish to make a card that alters its starting size.
This wasn't clear either way from the original brief, so I'll add it the main post. Thanks for highlighting this Gubump.
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #108: How Deep is your Pile?
Post by: mandioca15 on March 14, 2021, 08:11:44 pm
Stockade (Action, $5)

+1 Buy
Draw as many cards as there are cards in the Stockade pile.
———
At the start of Cleanup, if you gained a Victory card this turn, return this to its pile.

There are only eight copies of Stockade in its pile, to impose a limit on its drawing power.

Make the most of your buys, because every time you return a copy to its pile, you strengthen the copies everyone else has.
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #108: How Deep is your Pile?
Post by: fika monster on March 15, 2021, 05:10:15 am
Heres an old card idea for this weeks competition: A sort of tournament-sauna. It starts off weak but quickly snowballs.

(https://i.imgur.com/rX3mtHv.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/BrXTqPs.png)
Edit: Per Silverspawns suggestion, i Removed the +$ part, and changed its wording a bit. He also pointed out some grammar errors.

There are 10 Ringmasters in the supply. When ring master is in the game, players set up a Circus Member Pile, Similar to the Prize pile for Tournament. There is 1 copy of each Circus member per player. Unlike Tournaments prizes, Circus members don't run out as they are limited to 1 per player via Ringmasters wording.

Each Circus member can then, similar to Sauna and Avanto, play another circus member from hand.
(https://i.imgur.com/swlnqR2.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/OFSeXDy.png)
Edit: changed wording to match beggar, a couple of grammar fixes.
Horse girl. A powerful horse gainer.

(https://i.imgur.com/dqg7iBo.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/VFoZBng.png)
Edit: wording change
A forum/lab variant

(https://i.imgur.com/Gtvhkth.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/ygiJenw.png)
Edit: grammar fixes.
Clown. A mountenback+ variant that always hits, but gives it to your hand, meaning that you increase their money by 1 for that turn.

(https://i.imgur.com/n9f6NDC.png)
Daredevil. A nonterminal Throne Room, but with the problem of only playing the bottom card of your deck.

(https://i.imgur.com/bMidhlv.png)
Magician. A wacky Way of the seal, and a good source of + buy and money, but you may not always wanna bottomdeck cards.


(https://i.imgur.com/PnpIpej.png)
Changed magician to Contortionist: A bizarre fusion of Annex and +2 cards.
(annex is a neat event that i almost never buy, so hey, why not make it a card?)

These cards are intended to synergize, and work together with each other. In the late game, When there is no more Circus members to gain, Ringmaster becomes a potent Source of Money if you play well.

Edit 1: A lot of the cards had capitalization issues and a bit weird formatting and wording. Corrected that. Other wise the only major part was that Daredevil and CLown were buffed: Daredevil now gives +2 actions, and Clown is +3$ but does not force a discard.

Edit 2: i didn't like Ringmasters art, so i changed it. Thats it, lol

Edit 3: A lot of grammar changes and Magician got changed into Contortionist.
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #108: How Deep is your Pile?
Post by: infangthief on March 15, 2021, 07:38:53 am
Quote
Florist - $2
Action
+1 Action +1 Card
You may move the top Event of the Flower deck to the bottom.
----
Setup: Add a deck of 5 Events to the game. Events from that deck are called Flowers. Only the top Flower can be bought.
When you buy a Flower, gain a Florist.

Clarifications:
- The Events in the Flower deck should be chosen from among the Events not otherwise used in the game.
- Players may look through the Flower deck at any time, but must not change the order of the Events in it.


Flowers are a deck of events, that come with Florists to help you arrange them.
I considered making Flowers move to the bottom of their deck when they were bought, but that makes things too swingy. Leaving it on top means (in normal circumstances) you can't shut out the next player from the event which you just got.

And the name? Well, when Donald X first introduced Events, he said that Flor(i)st was the 5th direction (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Adventures#Flavor_text)...
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #108: How Deep is your Pile?
Post by: Holger on March 15, 2021, 10:07:52 am
I'm going to attempt something really silly, probably broken (and untested on top of that)! I might withdraw it in the situation where the good people of this forum makes it really obvious to me that it's broken/not working as intended :) . Anyway, here goes nothing:

(https://i.postimg.cc/25QQ7hQk/Institute-v1.png)     (https://i.postimg.cc/Hx3bfmvF/Grant-v1.png)

Institute can be a non-terminal Smithy if it draws you 3 Treasures/Victory cards. Big Money dudes are happy. You start with a deck of 15 cards. 3 turns until the first shuffle instead of 2. Your opening split could be (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/7/7d/Coin5.png/16px-Coin5.png)/(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/7/7d/Coin5.png/16px-Coin5.png)/(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/3/3d/Coin2.png/16px-Coin2.png); or (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/7/7d/Coin5.png/16px-Coin5.png)/(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/2/2a/Coin4.png/16px-Coin4.png)/(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/3/32/Coin3.png/16px-Coin3.png); or (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/2/2a/Coin4.png/16px-Coin4.png)/(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/2/2a/Coin4.png/16px-Coin4.png)/(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/2/2a/Coin4.png/16px-Coin4.png). Or it could be none of that should you want to trash the junk-y Grants instead of taking their money. If you do, well, your deck is leaner, yay! But adieu, cool opening splits (and adieu 1(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/9/92/VP.png/16px-VP.png) too, I guess).
I think that this is a really cool idea. The only thing is, it is almost strictly better than Scout. I don't find it a problem since Scout sucks and is removed, but I just wanted to mention it.

Scout reveals one more card than Institute, and it returns the revealed actions to your deck instead of discarding them. So I wouldn't call Institute "almost strictly better". In a treasureless deck Scout is actually clearly superior to Institute.

I suspect Institute will be rather weak outside of big money decks because of the discarding of actions, though the Grants boost it substantially...
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #108: How Deep is your Pile?
Post by: infangthief on March 15, 2021, 12:56:15 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/pfer8Ym.png)
There's no Dolmen pile. They just go under all the other piles. A pile isn't empty unless its Dolmen card is bought.
Looks good. Bye bye Gardens rushes.

Having the same card available in different supply piles might complicate things. The situations I can think of are:

EDIT2: Ninja'd on solution for 2!
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #108: How Deep is your Pile?
Post by: pubby on March 15, 2021, 04:11:37 pm
Having the same card available in different supply piles might complicate things. The situations I can think of are:
  • When more than one Dolmen is visible it sometimes matters which one you buy/gain/trash/exile etc. I think it is always clear who gets to make the choice though (viz, the person doing the thing, except in the case of Swindler!).
  • Ferry. Is this Dolmen in my hand the one which came from the pile I have my -2 cost token on?
1. Yeah, seems clear to me

2. I think the cleanest, most obvious answer is to say Dolmen disconnects from its original pile when it leaves. So you can't Ambassador it (pretty obvious). Ferry reduces the cost on buy, but not after that (Technically you bought a $4 Dolmen, but gained a $6 one). I'll update the card to make this clearer.
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #108: How Deep is your Pile?
Post by: mxdata on March 15, 2021, 04:21:53 pm
Having the same card available in different supply piles might complicate things. The situations I can think of are:
  • When more than one Dolmen is visible it sometimes matters which one you buy/gain/trash/exile etc. I think it is always clear who gets to make the choice though (viz, the person doing the thing, except in the case of Swindler!).
  • Ferry. Is this Dolmen in my hand the one which came from the pile I have my -2 cost token on?
1. Yeah, seems clear to me

2. I think the cleanest, most obvious answer is to say Dolmen disconnects from its original pile when it leaves. So you can't Ambassador it (pretty obvious). Ferry reduces the cost on buy, but not after that (Technically you bought a $4 Dolmen, but gained a $6 one). I'll update the card to make this clearer.

Not sure it's obvious that Ambassador wouldn't work.  There's no pile to return it to, but it is possible for a Dolmen to be in the Supply to be gained.  While you wouldn't normally *want* to give your opponent a Dolmen (barring Possession), it should be *possible* to do so if it's available in the Supply
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #108: How Deep is your Pile?
Post by: pubby on March 15, 2021, 04:25:34 pm
True. It can't be returned to the Supply, but it's possible to give other people Dolmens by revealing it and returning 0.
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #108: How Deep is your Pile?
Post by: Gubump on March 15, 2021, 08:59:33 pm
Having the same card available in different supply piles might complicate things. The situations I can think of are:
  • When more than one Dolmen is visible it sometimes matters which one you buy/gain/trash/exile etc. I think it is always clear who gets to make the choice though (viz, the person doing the thing, except in the case of Swindler!).
  • Ferry. Is this Dolmen in my hand the one which came from the pile I have my -2 cost token on?
1. Yeah, seems clear to me

2. I think the cleanest, most obvious answer is to say Dolmen disconnects from its original pile when it leaves. So you can't Ambassador it (pretty obvious). Ferry reduces the cost on buy, but not after that (Technically you bought a $4 Dolmen, but gained a $6 one). I'll update the card to make this clearer.

Another way to solve the Ferry problem without needing an FAQ would be to make it a debt cost so that Ferry doesn't work on any Dolmen anyway.
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #108: How Deep is your Pile?
Post by: majiponi on March 15, 2021, 11:03:32 pm
Devil’s advocate
cost $2 - Project
Put your Devil token per a cube on this.
Gain a Reverse Hierarchy.

Reverse Hierarchy
cost $0* - Action
X is the number of your Devil tokens on Devil's advocate.
+$(3-X)
Trash up to X cards from your hand.
(This card is not in Supply.)

Reverse Hierarchy is a 46-card pile.
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #108: How Deep is your Pile?
Post by: mxdata on March 15, 2021, 11:15:58 pm
Devil’s advocate
cost $2 - Project
Put your Devil token per a cube on this.
Gain a Reverse Hierarchy.

Reverse Hierarchy
cost $0* - Action
X is the number of your Devil tokens on Devil's advocate.
+$(3-X)
Trash up to X cards from your hand.
(This card is not in Supply.)

Reverse Hierarchy is a 4-card pile.

I'd suggest 6-card pile, to allow it to work with up to 6 players
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #108: How Deep is your Pile?
Post by: mxdata on March 15, 2021, 11:46:52 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/v5w2WZE.png)

Distant Island
Quote
When you gain a non-Reserve card costing $3 or more, you may reveal this from your hand to put this and the gained card on your Tavern mat. Worth 3 VP if on your Tavern mat at the end of the game (otherwise worth 0 VP)

A Reserve-Victory-Reaction card.  Conceptually a kind of hybrid of Distant Lands and Island.  Like Distant Lands, it's a Victory card that's only worth points if it's on your Reserve mat at the end of the game, and like Island, it can be used to set other cards off to the side, in this case to the Reserve mat rather than a dedicated Island mat.  It can only be put on the Tavern mat if you have it in your hand while gaining a card costing $3 or more.  The restriction to $3 or more is to make it a little more difficult to activate - otherwise you could simply buy a Copper with an extra buy to activate it, or even use the reaction on a gained Curse, while the non-Reserve qualification is there to keep you from using it to immediately put Reserve cards on the mat.  Unlike Island, you can't use it to remove your starting cards, or cards gained when it's not in hand.  Since it doesn't use up an Action to put it on the Tavern mat, I made it worth a little less VP than Distant Lands

It combines two types - Reaction and Reserve - which are not combined in any other cards (at least, standard cards, I wouldn't be surprised if other people have made fan cards combining those types) and the only reaction, other than Hovel, without an above-the-line part

An obvious use of this card would be buying a Victory card with it in hand.  The non-Reserve restriction keeps you from using that on other Distant Islands, or with Distant Lands if you have both in the same game, but any other Victory cards other than Estates would be fair game
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #108: How Deep is your Pile?
Post by: spheremonk on March 16, 2021, 12:45:39 am
(https://i.imgur.com/rX3mtHv.png)
There are 10 Ringmasters in the supply. When ring master is in the game, players set up a Circus Member Pile, Similar to the Prize pile for Tournament. There is 1 copy of each Circus member per player. Unlike Tournaments prizes, Circus members don't run out as they are limited to 1 per player via Ringmasters wording.

Would it simplify tracking if each player had their own Circus Member pile with one copy of each card, obviating the need to remember what’s been gained by whom? It would certainly streamline Ring Master’s first sentence: "Gain a card from your Circus Member pile."
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #108: How Deep is your Pile?
Post by: NoMoreFun on March 16, 2021, 04:04:40 am
Key to the City
Treasure/Duration - $2
Now, and at the start of your turns for the rest of the game if this hasn't left play, +$1
_____
Between turns, if the Key to the City pile is empty, return all Keys to the City from play to the Supply

(Setup: There is 1 Key to the City per player in the supply)
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #108: How Deep is your Pile?
Post by: faust on March 16, 2021, 04:10:46 am
Here is my attempt to recreate the Tulip mania (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulip_mania) in Dominion.

(https://i.imgur.com/MFejiCT.png)  (https://i.imgur.com/EXgNYXw.png)

Quote
Tulip - $4
Treasure

$3
Exchange this for a Rare Tulip.
Quote
Rare Tulip - $7*
Night

+1 Card
+1 Buy
If the Tulip pile is empty, +$2.
Return to your Buy phase.
There are 5 Tulips in the supply, and 10 Rare Tulips in the pile.

EDIT: Changed Tulip to still be returned to the supply when the Rare Tulips are gone. Also decreased the price of Rare Tulip to make them less insane with TfB.
Old versions for reference:
(https://i.imgur.com/apMwUOz.png)  (https://i.imgur.com/NUO9xhH.png)
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #108: How Deep is your Pile?
Post by: mxdata on March 16, 2021, 04:15:15 am
Key to the City
Treasure/Duration - $4
Now, and at the start of your turns for the rest of the game if it hasn't left play, +$1
_____
When the Key to the City pile empties, return all Keys to the City from play to the Supply

(Setup: There is 1 Key to the City per player in the supply)

I think you can probably drop "if it hasn't left play" since it's redundant - the duration effect can only apply when it is in play
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #108: How Deep is your Pile?
Post by: faust on March 16, 2021, 04:29:18 am
Key to the City
Treasure/Duration - $4
Now, and at the start of your turns for the rest of the game if it hasn't left play, +$1
_____
When the Key to the City pile empties, return all Keys to the City from play to the Supply

(Setup: There is 1 Key to the City per player in the supply)

I think you can probably drop "if it hasn't left play" since it's redundant - the duration effect can only apply when it is in play
That is false. If you trash a Hireling with Bonfire, its effect still applies.
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #108: How Deep is your Pile?
Post by: mxdata on March 16, 2021, 04:34:35 am
Here is my attempt to recreate the Tulip mania (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulip_mania) in Dominion.

(https://i.imgur.com/apMwUOz.png)  (https://i.imgur.com/NUO9xhH.png)

Quote
Tulip - $4
Treasure

$3
Exchange this for a Rare Tulip.
Quote
Rare Tulip - $7*
Night

+1 Card
+1 Buy
If the Tulip pile is empty, +$2.
Return to your Buy phase.
There are 5 Tulips in the supply, and 10 Rare Tulips in the pile.

For clarification: Is the "return to your buy phase" part of Rare Tulip dependent on the Tulip pile being empty?
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #108: How Deep is your Pile?
Post by: faust on March 16, 2021, 04:44:13 am
For clarification: Is the "return to your buy phase" part of Rare Tulip dependent on the Tulip pile being empty?
No, it is supposed to happen every time. I thought about putting it first, but it seemed odd to have the card still resolving after you've returned to the Buy phase.
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #108: How Deep is your Pile?
Post by: mxdata on March 16, 2021, 05:23:50 am
Key to the City
Treasure/Duration - $4
Now, and at the start of your turns for the rest of the game if it hasn't left play, +$1
_____
When the Key to the City pile empties, return all Keys to the City from play to the Supply

(Setup: There is 1 Key to the City per player in the supply)

I think you can probably drop "if it hasn't left play" since it's redundant - the duration effect can only apply when it is in play
That is false. If you trash a Hireling with Bonfire, its effect still applies.
Oh, right ... my mistake.  Should've realized that
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #108: How Deep is your Pile?
Post by: spineflu on March 16, 2021, 07:13:49 am
(https://i.imgur.com/v5w2WZE.png)

Distant Island
Quote
When you gain a non-Reserve card costing $3 or more, you may reveal this from your hand to put this and the gained card on your Tavern mat. Worth 3 VP if on your Tavern mat at the end of the game (otherwise worth 0 VP)

A Reserve-Victory-Reaction card.  Conceptually a kind of hybrid of Distant Lands and Island.  Like Distant Lands, it's a Victory card that's only worth points if it's on your Reserve mat at the end of the game, and like Island, it can be used to set other cards off to the side, in this case to the Reserve mat rather than a dedicated Island mat.  It can only be put on the Tavern mat if you have it in your hand while gaining a card costing $3 or more.  The restriction to $3 or more is to make it a little more difficult to activate - otherwise you could simply buy a Copper with an extra buy to activate it, or even use the reaction on a gained Curse, while the non-Reserve qualification is there to keep you from using it to immediately put Reserve cards on the mat.  Unlike Island, you can't use it to remove your starting cards, or cards gained when it's not in hand.  Since it doesn't use up an Action to put it on the Tavern mat, I made it worth a little less VP than Distant Lands

It combines two types - Reaction and Reserve - which are not combined in any other cards (at least, standard cards, I wouldn't be surprised if other people have made fan cards combining those types) and the only reaction, other than Hovel, without an above-the-line part

An obvious use of this card would be buying a Victory card with it in hand.  The non-Reserve restriction keeps you from using that on other Distant Islands, or with Distant Lands if you have both in the same game, but any other Victory cards other than Estates would be fair game

I'd consider choosing reaction-blue and victory-green as the colors on this, instead of reserve brown.

Since there's no call option on distant island, you'll never need to remember you can call it from your tavern mat. gubump had a whole spiel about this the other day in the discord, how distant lands probably didnt need the reserve type, since miser didnt have it but also put uncallable cards on the tavmat.

Anyhow, blue and green are the useful player cues with this - blue especially, I missed that this was a reaction at first glance.
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #108: How Deep is your Pile?
Post by: silverspawn on March 16, 2021, 07:20:34 am
Since there's no call option on distant island, you'll never need to remember you can call it from your tavern mat. gubump had a whole spiel about this the other day in the discord, how distant lands probably didnt need the reserve type, since miser didnt have it but also put uncallable cards on the tavmat.

Anyhow, blue and green are the useful player cues with this - blue especially, I missed that this was a reaction at first glance.

Imo, this shouldn't be a reserve card at all. Just make it set aside itself and add "(This stays aside permanently.)"
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #108: How Deep is your Pile?
Post by: silverspawn on March 16, 2021, 08:14:47 am
Updated version:

(https://i.ibb.co/C9qH8y0/Missionary.png)


Old:
(https://i.ibb.co/N9LzyJf/Missionary.png)

A smithy that gives you copies for free! As with Rats, there are twenty cards in this pile.

I think this card has the property that it gets stronger the higher the cost is. I decided to make it cost 2$ to make it harder to use. Unlike with Rats, there is no on-trash benefit, and since it costs 2$, upgrading this only gives you a Silver. The upside of free smithy-level draw should be large enough to make it worth it, but the downside should be significant as well, even with many forms of TfB.
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #108: How Deep is your Pile?
Post by: faust on March 16, 2021, 08:52:20 am
(https://i.ibb.co/N9LzyJf/Missionary.png)

A smithy that gives you copies for free! As with Rats, there are twenty cards in this pile.

I think this card has the property that it gets stronger the higher the cost is. I decided to make it cost 2$ to make it harder to use. Unlike with Rats, there is no on-trash benefit, and since it costs 2$, upgrading this only gives you a Silver. The upside of free smithy-level draw should be large enough to make it worth it, but the downside should be significant as well, even with many forms of TfB.
This looks fun, but I'd be afraid that it gets a bit too ridiculous with the +Action token, Champion or Academy. Especially considering that these are very easy to insta-pile that way, which will leave one player with a massive advantage.
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #108: How Deep is your Pile?
Post by: infangthief on March 16, 2021, 09:21:12 am
Here is my attempt to recreate the Tulip mania (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulip_mania) in Dominion.

(https://i.imgur.com/apMwUOz.png)  (https://i.imgur.com/NUO9xhH.png)

Quote
Tulip - $4
Treasure

$3
Exchange this for a Rare Tulip.
Quote
Rare Tulip - $7*
Night

+1 Card
+1 Buy
If the Tulip pile is empty, +$2.
Return to your Buy phase.
There are 5 Tulips in the supply, and 10 Rare Tulips in the pile.
More rare tulips than ordinary ones?
Could the Rare Tulip pile be like the Knights pile with 10 different variants? Then they are all rare!
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #108: How Deep is your Pile?
Post by: silverspawn on March 16, 2021, 09:28:37 am
This looks fun, but I'd be afraid that it gets a bit too ridiculous with the +Action token, Champion or Academy. Especially considering that these are very easy to insta-pile that way, which will leave one player with a massive advantage.

That's a really good point. I'll think about if there's a reasonably elegant fix.

Edit: it now duplicates itself at the end of your turn rather than immediately. This prevents you from emptying the pile in one turn. It still allows you to draw your deck pretty easily if you have a +1 Action token.
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #108: How Deep is your Pile?
Post by: faust on March 16, 2021, 09:37:10 am
More rare tulips than ordinary ones?
Could the Rare Tulip pile be like the Knights pile with 10 different variants? Then they are all rare!
I know, right?  ;D Though the Tulips do replenish, so in that sense they're less rare.

I don't want to overcomplicate things, so I won't do unique variants. However I've now changed things so that Tulips keep getting replenished even once that Rare ones are gone!
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #108: How Deep is your Pile?
Post by: Holger on March 16, 2021, 10:56:44 am
For clarification: Is the "return to your buy phase" part of Rare Tulip dependent on the Tulip pile being empty?
No, it is supposed to happen every time. I thought about putting it first, but it seemed odd to have the card still resolving after you've returned to the Buy phase.

I'd suggest to make Rare Tulip a Treasure card instead of a Night card then, removing the need for the "return to buy phase". That's much simpler conceptually and won't make a difference in practice AFAICS (at least as long as there are no other Night cards in the kingdom). It's also rather thematic since tulips were considered valuable assets during the 17th century Tulip mania... ;)
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #108: How Deep is your Pile?
Post by: faust on March 16, 2021, 11:02:18 am
For clarification: Is the "return to your buy phase" part of Rare Tulip dependent on the Tulip pile being empty?
No, it is supposed to happen every time. I thought about putting it first, but it seemed odd to have the card still resolving after you've returned to the Buy phase.

I'd suggest to make Rare Tulip a Treasure card instead of a Night card then, removing the need for the "return to buy phase". That's much simpler conceptually and won't make a difference in practice AFAICS (at least as long as there are no other Night cards in the kingdom). It's also rather thematic since tulips were considered valuable assets during the 17th century Tulip mania... ;)
It's pretty important that you are able to buy some Tulips before you play your Rare Tulips; this is why they are Night cards.
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #108: How Deep is your Pile?
Post by: Holger on March 16, 2021, 11:19:46 am
For clarification: Is the "return to your buy phase" part of Rare Tulip dependent on the Tulip pile being empty?
No, it is supposed to happen every time. I thought about putting it first, but it seemed odd to have the card still resolving after you've returned to the Buy phase.

I'd suggest to make Rare Tulip a Treasure card instead of a Night card then, removing the need for the "return to buy phase". That's much simpler conceptually and won't make a difference in practice AFAICS (at least as long as there are no other Night cards in the kingdom). It's also rather thematic since tulips were considered valuable assets during the 17th century Tulip mania... ;)
It's pretty important that you are able to buy some Tulips before you play your Rare Tulips; this is why they are Night cards.

You're right, I missed that Rare Tulips being Night cards allows you to "activate" them by emptying the Tulip pile in the same turn.
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #108: How Deep is your Pile?
Post by: spheremonk on March 16, 2021, 11:40:13 am
Here is my attempt to recreate the Tulip mania (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulip_mania) in Dominion.

(https://i.imgur.com/MFejiCT.png)  (https://i.imgur.com/EXgNYXw.png)


You should go meta and mint these as NFTs.
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #108: How Deep is your Pile?
Post by: grep on March 16, 2021, 01:23:14 pm
This one is quite crazy, as it affects the sizes of all the Supply piles. Hopefully it fits the content.

(https://i.ibb.co/5LjgyL6/image.png) (https://tinyurl.com/47xu7wc7)
Army of the Dead
$8@8 - Project
At start of each of your subsequent turns, gain a card from Trash into your hand.
-
Setup: Put two bottom cards from each non-Victory Supply pile to Trash.
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #108: How Deep is your Pile?
Post by: emtzalex on March 16, 2021, 01:42:43 pm
This looks fun, but I'd be afraid that it gets a bit too ridiculous with the +Action token, Champion or Academy. Especially considering that these are very easy to insta-pile that way, which will leave one player with a massive advantage.

That's a really good point. I'll think about if there's a reasonably elegant fix.

Edit: it now duplicates itself at the end of your turn rather than immediately. This prevents you from emptying the pile in one turn. It still allows you to draw your deck pretty easily if you have a +1 Action token.

TL;DR, another below-the-line option might be to add "You may not put any player-specific tokens on this Supply pile."

It's not quite as elegant, but I think this might be a better option. Even in a Lost Arts-Smithy game, that strategy is insanely powerful, and frequently (in my experience) the only issue with it is that you so quickly have enough money to buy Gold/Provinces that, absent +Buys, you end up not getting that many Smithies (and sometimes have to go back to them when your deck fills up with green). A Smithy that gained itself would make the already powerful effect even more potent, even if it only replicated at the end of the turn (preventing piling).

But while the +1 Action token makes this broken, I don't know that Academy or Champion pose the nearly the same risk. If you use Academy to pile these, you only end up with 1 extra Villager, and otherwise it effectively makes them self-gaining double Lackeys (you get the effect of Lackeys twice, and both come with enough Villagers to be two Labs). With Champion, there's rarely any guarantee that you will get it played before the game ends, and Traveller lines do not get along well with terminal drawing. If you wait to start getting Missionaries until after you play Champion you probably will have little time to use them, and if you buy them early then you run the big risk of drawing your Traveller dead and having to wait another shuffle to use them.

I used this language in a draft of a card I ended up dropping. My first early designs for WDC 102 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20650.0) was a card called Industrious Monks that was initially "+$2, return this to your hand," which I think I read was considered as a design for an official card, but was ultimately thrown out because if you got it in a game with no villages, it wasn't any fun to play with. To fix that, I added a Treasure-Map-like mechanic where if you trashed two IMs you could move the +1 Action token to a Supply pile (presumably letting you create a village as there is almost always at least one cantrip or disappearing money).

The immediate problem with that was that the obvious choice was to move the +1 Action token to Industrious Monks to make each give you unlimited money. My first thought was to have it put the token on a different Supply pile, but the interaction with Lost Arts still makes endless cash too easy. Next I added below-the-line text that said. "You may not put any player-specific tokens on this Supply pile." While this solved my +1 Action token problem, I soon realized there was also a Champion problem that I couldn't find a solution to, so I scrapped it.
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #108: How Deep is your Pile?
Post by: silverspawn on March 16, 2021, 02:38:49 pm
I'm leaning doing something like that. But why 'player-specific'? Are you thinking about Taxes? Is debt even a token?
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #108: How Deep is your Pile?
Post by: faust on March 16, 2021, 02:53:58 pm
I'm leaning doing something like that. But why 'player-specific'? Are you thinking about Taxes? Is debt even a token?
There's also Embargo (though that doesn't lead to rules issues) and Defiled Shrine.
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #108: How Deep is your Pile?
Post by: emtzalex on March 16, 2021, 04:51:42 pm
I'm leaning doing something like that. But why 'player-specific'? Are you thinking about Taxes? Is debt even a token?

When I wrote that I was just thinking of the tokens from Adventures (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Adventures_tokens), and any fan-created variations thereon. To be honest, you could probably limit it further to the +1 Action token (barring something like a +2 Actions token from the aforementioned fan-created variants or [less likely] a future expansions). That said, given the ability to gain these so rapidly, keeping the other bonus tokens off is probably not a bad idea.

By contrast, I do see a drawback to making it unaffected by Tax (which I do think would be implicated, as the physical objects that go onto the piles during IRL games are called Debt tokens) and Embargo, and (to a lesser extent) Defiled Shrine. I don't know that players need an additional incentive to get it, which keeping off Debt/Embargo tokens would do. Also, with Tax and Defiled Shrine, it creates an odd situation where you get contradictory instructions from two different card-shaped objects. I'm not sure the rules clearly contemplate what to do in that situation (but I could be wrong about that). (There is also a minor synergy with Embargo if you buy one Missionaries then Embargo the deck; you can keep gaining them while the other players [absent other sources of gaining] will have to eat a Curse to get into it).
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #108: How Deep is your Pile?
Post by: mxdata on March 16, 2021, 05:15:39 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/v5w2WZE.png)

Distant Island
Quote
When you gain a non-Reserve card costing $3 or more, you may reveal this from your hand to put this and the gained card on your Tavern mat. Worth 3 VP if on your Tavern mat at the end of the game (otherwise worth 0 VP)

A Reserve-Victory-Reaction card.  Conceptually a kind of hybrid of Distant Lands and Island.  Like Distant Lands, it's a Victory card that's only worth points if it's on your Reserve mat at the end of the game, and like Island, it can be used to set other cards off to the side, in this case to the Reserve mat rather than a dedicated Island mat.  It can only be put on the Tavern mat if you have it in your hand while gaining a card costing $3 or more.  The restriction to $3 or more is to make it a little more difficult to activate - otherwise you could simply buy a Copper with an extra buy to activate it, or even use the reaction on a gained Curse, while the non-Reserve qualification is there to keep you from using it to immediately put Reserve cards on the mat.  Unlike Island, you can't use it to remove your starting cards, or cards gained when it's not in hand.  Since it doesn't use up an Action to put it on the Tavern mat, I made it worth a little less VP than Distant Lands

It combines two types - Reaction and Reserve - which are not combined in any other cards (at least, standard cards, I wouldn't be surprised if other people have made fan cards combining those types) and the only reaction, other than Hovel, without an above-the-line part

An obvious use of this card would be buying a Victory card with it in hand.  The non-Reserve restriction keeps you from using that on other Distant Islands, or with Distant Lands if you have both in the same game, but any other Victory cards other than Estates would be fair game

I'd consider choosing reaction-blue and victory-green as the colors on this, instead of reserve brown.

Since there's no call option on distant island, you'll never need to remember you can call it from your tavern mat. gubump had a whole spiel about this the other day in the discord, how distant lands probably didnt need the reserve type, since miser didnt have it but also put uncallable cards on the tavmat.

Anyhow, blue and green are the useful player cues with this - blue especially, I missed that this was a reaction at first glance.

Yeah, that makes sense.  I'll update it accordingly
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #108: How Deep is your Pile?
Post by: mxdata on March 16, 2021, 05:24:40 pm
Since there's no call option on distant island, you'll never need to remember you can call it from your tavern mat. gubump had a whole spiel about this the other day in the discord, how distant lands probably didnt need the reserve type, since miser didnt have it but also put uncallable cards on the tavmat.

Anyhow, blue and green are the useful player cues with this - blue especially, I missed that this was a reaction at first glance.

Imo, this shouldn't be a reserve card at all. Just make it set aside itself and add "(This stays aside permanently.)"

That would also eliminate the necessity of adding "non-Reserve", and Prince already does the setting-aside-permanently without a dedicated "Prince mat", and in games without any other Reserve cards, it would avoid the necessity of bringing out the mat just for this card
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #108: How Deep is your Pile?
Post by: Gubump on March 16, 2021, 06:08:15 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/HLXeJXa.png)
Someone on Discord suggested making it so you can trash a DC for nothing in return without needing to be unable to trash something else, so I've made that change.

(https://i.imgur.com/ozXWxhR.png)

There are 20 Developing Cities in its pile.
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #108: How Deep is your Pile?
Post by: spineflu on March 16, 2021, 06:10:22 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/4YxMPqV.png)

There are 20 Developing Cities in its pile.
whats an expanding city
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #108: How Deep is your Pile?
Post by: Gubump on March 16, 2021, 06:14:54 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/4YxMPqV.png)

There are 20 Developing Cities in its pile.
whats an expanding city

Realized that mistake right after posting. I've fixed the misnaming and nerfed it by making it unable to trash DCs.
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #108: How Deep is your Pile?
Post by: The Alchemist on March 16, 2021, 06:38:29 pm

(https://i.ibb.co/C9qH8y0/Missionary.png)


This is basically strictly stronger than a smithy, since gaining too many smithies is rarely a downside (even without villages, this would be good in a money deck). I think it needs to be $5, since what, only a quarter of games max actually have trash for benefit? But if it is a big concern, make it cost 5 debt. That way it doesn't get anything from tfb and still costs more than a plain smithy. At 2, this makes the 5/2 opening just way too good.
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #108: How Deep is your Pile?
Post by: silverspawn on March 16, 2021, 07:00:29 pm
pretty sure having 20 smithies in your deck is not good for a big money deck. I think this is unplayable in money decks, and rarely playable with trashing.

You don't necessarily need trash for benefit; something like Junk Dealer would probably be fine.

it could cost debt, but I don't think that's needed. Debt cost is a possibility, but I like it at 2$.
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #108: How Deep is your Pile?
Post by: silverspawn on March 16, 2021, 07:11:32 pm
This would be the version:

(https://i.ibb.co/VT0XPWB/Missionary-3.png)

Not yet sure if I really like it better.
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #108: How Deep is your Pile?
Post by: fika monster on March 16, 2021, 07:18:26 pm
Heres an old card idea for this weeks competition: A sort of tournament-sauna. It starts off weak but quickly snowballs.
Made a lot of tiny updates to the card and a complete switch with one of them. Kudos to silverspawn for feedback
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #108: How Deep is your Pile?
Post by: fika monster on March 16, 2021, 07:20:03 pm
This would be the version:

(https://i.ibb.co/VT0XPWB/Missionary-3.png)

Not yet sure if I really like it better.

I don't think i have a problem personally with + action token going on this: Its somewhat rare, and seems like a fun ocassional thing. its like that for a lot of the crappy +2 cards.

If your really set on that, maybe make it:
"-1VP".
That way, the player who gets a lot of them need to score more in the +Action token game

Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #108: How Deep is your Pile?
Post by: silverspawn on March 16, 2021, 07:26:04 pm
Yeah, I found the idea convincing initially, but just nuking a powerful combo is usually not needed. Apprentice with market square is no less broken and people like it fine. I think I'll leave the older version after all. (I.e., the one that gains Missionaries at the end but doesn't reference tokens.)
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #108: How Deep is your Pile?
Post by: The Alchemist on March 16, 2021, 10:45:37 pm
pretty sure having 20 smithies in your deck is not good for a big money deck. I think this is unplayable in money decks, and rarely playable with trashing.

You don't necessarily need trash for benefit; something like Junk Dealer would probably be fine.

it could cost debt, but I don't think that's needed. Debt cost is a possibility, but I like it at 2$.

But the point stands, in a majority of boards a smithy is not junk. Gaining anything on top of smithy effect that isn't an estate, copper, curse, or ruin is a bonus and makes this card stronger than smithy. It can't cost less than a smithy. It either needs a real drawback, like the -1 VP suggested, or a higher price.
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #108: How Deep is your Pile?
Post by: pubby on March 17, 2021, 12:12:14 am
It's not gaining a Smithy; it's gaining a Missionary. The exponential growth is a big downside in engines.

Consider this, is Rats strictly better than "+1 Card, +1 Action, Trash a card from your hand"?  ::)
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #108: How Deep is your Pile?
Post by: mxdata on March 17, 2021, 02:25:46 am
(https://i.imgur.com/v5w2WZE.png)

Distant Island
Quote
When you gain a non-Reserve card costing $3 or more, you may reveal this from your hand to put this and the gained card on your Tavern mat. Worth 3 VP if on your Tavern mat at the end of the game (otherwise worth 0 VP)

A Reserve-Victory-Reaction card.  Conceptually a kind of hybrid of Distant Lands and Island.  Like Distant Lands, it's a Victory card that's only worth points if it's on your Reserve mat at the end of the game, and like Island, it can be used to set other cards off to the side, in this case to the Reserve mat rather than a dedicated Island mat.  It can only be put on the Tavern mat if you have it in your hand while gaining a card costing $3 or more.  The restriction to $3 or more is to make it a little more difficult to activate - otherwise you could simply buy a Copper with an extra buy to activate it, or even use the reaction on a gained Curse, while the non-Reserve qualification is there to keep you from using it to immediately put Reserve cards on the mat.  Unlike Island, you can't use it to remove your starting cards, or cards gained when it's not in hand.  Since it doesn't use up an Action to put it on the Tavern mat, I made it worth a little less VP than Distant Lands

It combines two types - Reaction and Reserve - which are not combined in any other cards (at least, standard cards, I wouldn't be surprised if other people have made fan cards combining those types) and the only reaction, other than Hovel, without an above-the-line part

An obvious use of this card would be buying a Victory card with it in hand.  The non-Reserve restriction keeps you from using that on other Distant Islands, or with Distant Lands if you have both in the same game, but any other Victory cards other than Estates would be fair game

Updated version, after feedback from Silverspan and Spineflu
(https://i.imgur.com/fi7PT3x.png)
Quote
When you gain a card costing $3 or more, you may reveal this from your hand to set this and the gained card aside, for the rest of the game. Worth 3 VP if set aside at the end of the game (otherwise worth 0 VP)
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #108: How Deep is your Pile?
Post by: emtzalex on March 17, 2021, 03:42:45 am
The non-10 card pile I came up with is the Zodiac pile, which (not surprisingly) has 12 card-shaped objects in it:

(https://i.imgur.com/SACjJQGh.png)(https://i.imgur.com/8DzYDe4h.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/Zb9gEQXh.png)(https://i.imgur.com/JBS5Vu7h.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/kQwFxxah.png)(https://i.imgur.com/J79q3KNh.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/UUt20E4h.png)(https://i.imgur.com/hJNs4tLh.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/NH8TwY8h.png)(https://i.imgur.com/6M0FXxgh.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/XqEuK46h.png)(https://i.imgur.com/SEa0Rl4h.png)

A Zodiac is similar to a Way. Like with Ways, when you play certain cards, instead of doing what is printed on the card, you may do what is printed on the active Zodiac. However, unlike Ways, which can replace the effect of any Action card, only cards with the Astrology type can have their text replaced by Ways.

When any Kingdom card (or card in the Black Market deck) has the Astrology type, the Zodiac pile is added (as the Boon deck is added with Fate cards or the Ruins pile with Looters). Unlike Boons or Hexes, Zodiacs are face up, and never shuffled. Instead, the Zodiac pile is placed on the table face up, with the Zodiacs in order (their position number is in a blue circle where the price of an Event/Project would be for easy reference), with the first Zodiac--Aires--on top, and the rest of the cards below it in order, ending with the final Zodiac--Pisces, on the bottom. Players can look through the pile at any time, but must keep it in order.

The top Zodiac on the pile is active. Astrology cards all have a mechanism by which the Zodiac pile can be "advanced," meaning the top Zodiac is moved to the bottom, and the next one becomes active (without changing the overall order). If the pile is advanced beyond the last Zodiac, it starts over. The Zodiacs at the top of the pile start out relatively weak, and they tend to get stronger, although they do not get consistently stronger.



And here is my submission, the card that interacts with the non-10 card pile, and the simplest Astrology card I came up with, the Astrologer:

(https://i.imgur.com/UVjc1J4h.png)

Quote from: Astrologer
ASTROLOGER -- $3
ACTION - ASTROLOGY
+1 Card
+1 Action
You may advance the Zodiac pile.

Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #108: How Deep is your Pile?
Post by: emtzalex on March 17, 2021, 03:57:35 am
(https://i.imgur.com/SACjJQGh.png)(https://i.imgur.com/8DzYDe4h.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/Zb9gEQXh.png)(https://i.imgur.com/JBS5Vu7h.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/kQwFxxah.png)(https://i.imgur.com/J79q3KNh.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/UUt20E4h.png)(https://i.imgur.com/hJNs4tLh.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/NH8TwY8h.png)(https://i.imgur.com/6M0FXxgh.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/XqEuK46h.png)(https://i.imgur.com/SEa0Rl4h.png)


Here is a text version of the Zodiacs, for people with issues seeing images.

1:
Quote from: Aires
Aires
+2 Actions
+$1

2:
Quote from: Taurus
Taurus
+1 Card
+2 Actions

3:
Quote from: Gemini
Gemini
Play up to 2 Treasures from your hand. Then pay all of your $ and gain 2 copies of a card costing up to the amount you paid.

4:
Quote from: Cancer
Cancer
+2 Actions
+$1
+2 Buys

5:
Quote from: Leo
Leo
+$3

6:
Quote from: Virgo
Virgo
+1 Action
Look at the top 2 cards of your deck. Trash and/or discard any number of them. You may put one into your hand.

7:
Quote from: Libra
Libra
+1 Action
Discard a card, draw until you have 5 cards in hand.

8:
Quote from: Scorpio
Scorpio
+3 Cards
+1 Action
Discard 2 cards.

9:
Quote from: Sagittarius
Sagittarius
+2 Cards
+1 Action

10:
Quote from: Capricorn
Capricorn
+1 Card
+1 Action
Trash a card from your hand.

11:
Quote from: Aquarius
Aquarius
+1 Action
This turn, cards (everywhere) cost $1 less.

12:
Quote from: Pisces
Pisces
+1 Card
+1 Action
+$1
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #108: How Deep is your Pile?
Post by: Aquila on March 17, 2021, 05:55:29 am
Adjusted my entry:

(https://trello-attachments.s3.amazonaws.com/5e88b5ebdca4eb2a73be5eec/5e89bbf389030c1899d8274a/8fc8b257af95bea330010d9f41bfae1a/Subsidy.png)
Quote
Subsidy - Action Gatherer, $5 cost.
+1 Buy
+ $1 per $1 you've produced with Actions other than Subsidy this turn.

Doubling all $ was too wild, so now it just counts all the virtual $ your other Actions have made.
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #108: How Deep is your Pile?
Post by: faust on March 17, 2021, 06:04:52 am
This inspired me to go back to the original post on Subsidy.
These Resources are a Supply pile that behave just like Ruins. 10 of each, shuffled at game start and only the top is seen. But unlike Ruins, all 50 are used in every game. My reasoning for this is to create a bit of randomness. With more copies of each card available, there is more chance that one of the Resources may never show up early, or all 10 of one of them are near the top of the pile, etc.
I'm confused about this. How does adding all of them create randomness? If anything, it reduces randomness. With Ruins, the outcomes described (a copy not showing up for a long time, 10 of the same near the top of the pile) are already possible. They are even more extreme with Ruins because a given copy may not show up at all.
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #108: How Deep is your Pile?
Post by: gambit05 on March 17, 2021, 06:25:21 am

I have modified my submitted card (updated in my original post (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20714.msg864183#msg864183)):


(https://i.ibb.co/LxwJ0RK/Revenant.png)   
Revenant
$2 - Action
Quote

+2 Actions
+1 Buy

  You may set this aside. If you
    do, +1 Card per empty Supply   
pile and return it to the Supply
 at the start of Clean-up.
--------------------------
Setup: 3 copies per player.


Minor functions: A cheap card that can provide Actions and an extra Buy, features important in many Kingdoms and player’s decks that should not be undervalued.
Revenant can be activated for additional card drawing when Supply piles are empty.

Main function: The ability to manipulate how many Supply piles are empty and thus, having some control over ending the game via 3 empty piles. This can be achieved by gaining Revenants, and by playing and returning them or not.

A note to the tactical use:
A player, who wants to force ending the game by 3 empty piles, or who just wants to have an empty pile for activating other cards (e.g. City, Paddock) tries to empty the Revenant pile or, if already empty, wants to keep it empty by not returning their Revenants to it. On the contrary, a player, who does not want to end the game via 3 empty piles or who does not want to activate other cards, tries to avoid an empty Revenant pile.
Additional options to manipulate the Revenant pile are trashing, remodeling, Exiling (particularly interesting), and (in a few cases) gaining Revenants back from the trash as well as cost reduction of cards.
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #108: How Deep is your Pile?
Post by: The Alchemist on March 17, 2021, 07:10:20 am
My submission:

(https://imgur.com/VvE2lK6.png)  (https://imgur.com/ebbqGKK.png)  (https://imgur.com/N7EHnyi.png)  (https://imgur.com/mQMlFCC.png)

Split pile of 16 cards, in order Air, Water, Earth, Fire four times, Air on top.

Each element on their own is a nice little support card, but combined together they each provide a key component to making a pretty strong draw-to-x engine. Just make sure to not let your opponent grab all the Waters!
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #108: How Deep is your Pile?
Post by: Timinou on March 17, 2021, 10:41:16 am
(https://i.imgur.com/SACjJQGh.png)(https://i.imgur.com/8DzYDe4h.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/Zb9gEQXh.png)(https://i.imgur.com/JBS5Vu7h.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/kQwFxxah.png)(https://i.imgur.com/J79q3KNh.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/UUt20E4h.png)(https://i.imgur.com/hJNs4tLh.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/NH8TwY8h.png)(https://i.imgur.com/6M0FXxgh.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/XqEuK46h.png)(https://i.imgur.com/SEa0Rl4h.png)


Here is a text version of the Zodiacs, for people with issues seeing images.

1:
Quote from: Aires
Aires
+2 Actions
+$1

2:
Quote from: Taurus
Taurus
+1 Card
+2 Actions

3:
Quote from: Gemini
Gemini
Play up to 2 Treasures from your hand. Then pay all of your $ and gain 2 copies of a card costing up to the amount you paid.

4:
Quote from: Cancer
Cancer
+2 Actions
+$1
+2 Buys

5:
Quote from: Leo
Leo
+$3

6:
Quote from: Virgo
Virgo
+1 Action
Look at the top 2 cards of your deck. Trash and/or discard any number of them. You may put one into your hand.

7:
Quote from: Libra
Libra
+1 Action
Discard a card, draw until you have 5 cards in hand.

8:
Quote from: Scorpio
Scorpio
+3 Cards
+1 Action
Discard 2 cards.

9:
Quote from: Sagittarius
Sagittarius
+2 Cards
+1 Action

10:
Quote from: Capricorn
Capricorn
+1 Card
+1 Action
Trash a card from your hand.

11:
Quote from: Aquarius
Aquarius
+1 Action
This turn, cards (everywhere) cost $1 less.

12:
Quote from: Pisces
Pisces
+1 Card
+1 Action
+$1

What was your thought process behind the order of the Zodiacs? I feel like having Ares as the first one isn't super useful, because if you open with Astrologer, you're unlikely to need the Village effect if you draw it on Turn 3 or 4. 
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #108: How Deep is your Pile?
Post by: Timinou on March 17, 2021, 10:58:12 am
This would be the version:

(https://i.ibb.co/VT0XPWB/Missionary-3.png)

Not yet sure if I really like it better.

I don't think it's an issue that there could be strong combos with Adventures tokens, as that will only come up in a minority of games.

However, I do think it needs to cost more than $2.  It's easy to spam Wayfarers on some boards, but you still need to spend Buys to do so.  In this case, it's too easy to gain additional Missionaries, and I think with enough villages in your deck, they won't necessarily junk your deck that much.  I actually like the suggestion of a debt cost.
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #108: How Deep is your Pile?
Post by: DunnoItAll on March 17, 2021, 11:56:54 am
My first time entering!

How deep is my pile?  ZERO.

The Noble Knight is the star of this show.  A very souped up version of a Hireling that can only be earned by achieving the 5 Traits expected of a true Knight.

The Kingdom card is Tutelage.  There is one copy per player, but instead of starting in the Supply, each player begins the game with their copy in their discard pile. There is no Supply pile, so it doesn't count towards game-ending conditions, though Tutelage does count as one of the 10 Kingdom cards.

When Tutelage is in play, get one copy of each Trait per player and one copy of Noble Knight per player.  To gain the Noble Knight, gain all 5 Traits.  Then during your Buy phase, take a Noble Knight and remove the 5 Traits you had from the game (not trash and not available for other players).

(https://i.imgur.com/z45to1H.png)(https://i.imgur.com/EPaxf7E.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/ceEihw2.png)(https://i.imgur.com/tA89X6E.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/b8CRLr7.png)(https://i.imgur.com/xoab6z6.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/ZGHjjJX.png)
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #108: How Deep is your Pile?
Post by: gambit05 on March 17, 2021, 12:12:08 pm
Updated version:

(https://i.ibb.co/C9qH8y0/Missionary.png)

I know there is some discussion about your card, although I haven't followed it in much detail. How about a drawback similar to Blacksmith (after drawing): "Reveal your hand. Discard a card per Missionary revealed."
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #108: How Deep is your Pile?
Post by: infangthief on March 17, 2021, 12:37:37 pm
Interesting to think through the consequences of some of these cards turning up in the Black Market deck...

I think Pigeon is the funniest (all that set-up for nothing, with Pigeon itself being just an expensive Copper), followed by Tulip (I assume Rare Tulips cannot give you $2 if there is no Tulip pile).
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #108: How Deep is your Pile?
Post by: emtzalex on March 17, 2021, 12:50:48 pm
What was your thought process behind the order of the Zodiacs? I feel like having Ares as the first one isn't super useful, because if you open with Astrologer, you're unlikely to need the Village effect if you draw it on Turn 3 or 4.

The most direct answer to your question is that, according to the Internets (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astrological_sign#Western_zodiac_signs), this is the order of the signs. In terms of what effects to give each one, I started by looking to official cards and/or for the ones that are represented by animals,  the Way of that animal. (Way of the Sheep gives +$2 so I wanted Aries to give some +$, way of the Ox gives +2 Action so I wanted Taurus to give some kind of Village effect, Capricorn is a goat (or sea goat[?]) so I wanted to have it trash, etc.).

As to the strength of the initial Zodiac versus the others in order, I very specifically wanted it to start out relatively weak, and have the strength of the effect improve, peaking around nine or ten before starting to going down slightly (in part so the drop-off from 12 to 1 when it is reset isn't so dramatic). I thought of it in terms of what an Action with the effect would cost. So:

No.NameRelated Official CardCost (estimate)
1AiresSquire (w/o other options or on-trash)<$2
2TaurusVillage$3
3Gemini(kind of like Talisman and a +Buy)  $3+
4CancerVilla (+extra Buy, less the on-buy effect)<$4
5LeoVarious terminal G (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Mandarin)o (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Sacred_Grove)l (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Treasurer)d (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Livery)s, less their other effect  <$5
6VirgoSentry (but card comes from two viewed)~$5
7LibraNot sure. Hunting Lodge? ~$5
8ScorpioForum (less on-buy)Almost $5
9SagittariusLaboratory$5
10CapricornUpgrade (-gain)<$5
11AquariusHighway (less +Card)<$5
12PiscesPeddler/Fisherman<$5

(These are pretty vague, so some of them might be off.)

The idea is that you shouldn't be able to open with a $3 card that is immediately a Lab variant. You have to play the zero-net-effect cantrip in order to improve the active Zodiac, foregoing what you would have otherwise gotten. Of course, having options always makes a card better than not (so, for example, a "Smithy Village" that gave either +3 cards or +1 Action, +2 Villages would be extremely powerful, event though it lets you choose between two effects from cards that cost $3 and $4), so if you were on Leo and that $3 would let you hit a Canals or Platinum, you can put off improving your Astrology cards to otherwise improve your deck.

The other dynamic in play is that there is only one Zodiac pile, so if you make the effort to play 8 cantrips to turn them into a Lab, your opponent can just spend $3 to (a) get the Lab for herself, or (b) advance the pile further, and take it away from you. Of course, if you're pushing a terminal-draw big-money strategy, it may not be worth foregoing the buy to do (b) when your opponent will still have (relatively) valuable effects after the first two times you play it. But it does prevent building a strategy around just having one of the Zodiacs for the rest of the game (unless you can pile all of the Astrology cards).

Finally, I went back and forth on whether to call it a Zodiac pile or a Zodiac deck. I settled on the observation of piles (generally) being face up, and decks being face-down. Since this is face up, I called it a pile.
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #108: How Deep is your Pile?
Post by: spineflu on March 17, 2021, 01:18:53 pm
I'm changing out my entry for something much simpler
(https://trello-attachments.s3.amazonaws.com/5d34c84e360a440d0d16278b/6052391f72c5150cea2804ca/58fcd29eb14e941d786c28af3ef9d9ff/image.png)
Quote
Gentry • $4 • Action - Victory
Choose one: +2 Actions; or +2 Cards.
-
1%

Pile is 16 deep, always (no change for 2p vs 3+p games)
name-wise, Gentry is sort of a lesser class of nobles
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #108: How Deep is your Pile?
Post by: Gubump on March 17, 2021, 01:20:55 pm

I think you have some of the greater than/less than symbols backwards. Fishing Village w/o Duration effect is worse than Fishing Village, not better (in fact, it's <(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/3/3d/Coin2.png/16px-Coin2.png) because it's strictly worse than Squire as well). Likewise Upgrade without the gain is worse than Upgrade, Highway without +1 Card is worse than Highway (although Aquarius isn't strictly worse than Highway due to being Thronable), and pure Peddler is strictly worse than several (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/7/7d/Coin5.png/16px-Coin5.png)s (Market, Artificer, Treasury, etc.).
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #108: How Deep is your Pile?
Post by: emtzalex on March 17, 2021, 01:33:45 pm

I think you have some of the greater than/less than symbols backwards. Fishing Village w/o Duration effect is worse than Fishing Village, not better (in fact, it's <(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/3/3d/Coin2.png/16px-Coin2.png) because it's strictly worse than Squire as well). Likewise Upgrade without the gain is worse than Upgrade, Highway without +1 Card is worse than Highway (although Aquarius isn't strictly worse than Highway due to being Thronable), and pure Peddler is strictly worse than several (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/7/7d/Coin5.png/16px-Coin5.png)s (Market, Artificer, Treasury, etc.).

You are absolutely correct, thank you. I corrected all of those (and changed Aries to the more apt Squire comparison).
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #108: How Deep is your Pile?
Post by: Aquila on March 17, 2021, 05:49:49 pm
This inspired me to go back to the original post on Subsidy.
These Resources are a Supply pile that behave just like Ruins. 10 of each, shuffled at game start and only the top is seen. But unlike Ruins, all 50 are used in every game. My reasoning for this is to create a bit of randomness. With more copies of each card available, there is more chance that one of the Resources may never show up early, or all 10 of one of them are near the top of the pile, etc.
I'm confused about this. How does adding all of them create randomness? If anything, it reduces randomness. With Ruins, the outcomes described (a copy not showing up for a long time, 10 of the same near the top of the pile) are already possible. They are even more extreme with Ruins because a given copy may not show up at all.
Yeah, this is true. My answer to this is submit another Gatherer card:

(https://trello-attachments.s3.amazonaws.com/5e88b5ebdca4eb2a73be5eec/5eb963da95efc554dda9d30c/6762e0f5829069c4ee144b74b70eedea/Expedition_Camp.png)
Quote
Expedition Camp - Action Duration Gatherer, $4 cost.
If this is the first Expedition camp you've played this turn and the previous turn wasn't yours, take another turn after this one, and you draw 5 fewer cards for your next hand.
At the start of that turn, you may trash this to gain 3 Resources to your hand.
An Outpost variant that can be trashed for a random hand of 3 cards on the bonus turn. Only the first Expedition Camp played on a turn gives the bonus turn, but each extra Camp played can be trashed on the bonus turn for 3 more Resources to hand.
This needs at least 30 Resources in the pile to fully function no matter how many players there are. 50 lets Lurkers/Graverobbers enable more plays.

If you only want to judge one kingdom pile per entry Mahowrath, then Expedition Camp is my submission. Subsidy will be an auxiliary card showing how the Resources are designed to work with multiple Gatherers.
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #108: How Deep is your Pile?
Post by: majiponi on March 17, 2021, 07:18:18 pm

I have modified my submitted card (updated in my original post (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20714.msg864183#msg864183)):


(https://i.ibb.co/LxwJ0RK/Revenant.png)   
Revenant
$2 - Action
Quote

+2 Actions
+1 Buy

  You may set this aside. If you
    do, +1 Card per empty Supply   
pile and return it to the Supply
 at the start of Clean-up.
--------------------------
Setup: 3 copies per player.


Minor functions: A cheap card that can provide Actions and an extra Buy, features important in many Kingdoms and player’s decks that should not be undervalued.
Revenant can be activated for additional card drawing when Supply piles are empty.

Main function: The ability to manipulate how many Supply piles are empty and thus, having some control over ending the game via 3 empty piles. This can be achieved by gaining Revenants, and by playing and returning them or not.

A note to the tactical use:
A player, who wants to force ending the game by 3 empty piles, or who just wants to have an empty pile for activating other cards (e.g. City, Paddock) tries to empty the Revenant pile or, if already empty, wants to keep it empty by not returning their Revenants to it. On the contrary, a player, who does not want to end the game via 3 empty piles or who does not want to activate other cards, tries to avoid an empty Revenant pile.
Additional options to manipulate the Revenant pile are trashing, remodeling, Exiling (particularly interesting), and (in a few cases) gaining Revenants back from the trash as well as cost reduction of cards.

Too easy to forget to return. Encampment wording, or immediate returning is better, I suppose.
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #108: How Deep is your Pile?
Post by: Gubump on March 17, 2021, 08:18:42 pm

I have modified my submitted card (updated in my original post (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20714.msg864183#msg864183)):


(https://i.ibb.co/LxwJ0RK/Revenant.png)   
Revenant
$2 - Action
Quote

+2 Actions
+1 Buy

  You may set this aside. If you
    do, +1 Card per empty Supply   
pile and return it to the Supply
 at the start of Clean-up.
--------------------------
Setup: 3 copies per player.


Minor functions: A cheap card that can provide Actions and an extra Buy, features important in many Kingdoms and player’s decks that should not be undervalued.
Revenant can be activated for additional card drawing when Supply piles are empty.

Main function: The ability to manipulate how many Supply piles are empty and thus, having some control over ending the game via 3 empty piles. This can be achieved by gaining Revenants, and by playing and returning them or not.

A note to the tactical use:
A player, who wants to force ending the game by 3 empty piles, or who just wants to have an empty pile for activating other cards (e.g. City, Paddock) tries to empty the Revenant pile or, if already empty, wants to keep it empty by not returning their Revenants to it. On the contrary, a player, who does not want to end the game via 3 empty piles or who does not want to activate other cards, tries to avoid an empty Revenant pile.
Additional options to manipulate the Revenant pile are trashing, remodeling, Exiling (particularly interesting), and (in a few cases) gaining Revenants back from the trash as well as cost reduction of cards.

Too easy to forget to return. Encampment wording, or immediate returning is better, I suppose.

It does use Encampment wording, though...
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #108: How Deep is your Pile?
Post by: spheremonk on March 17, 2021, 09:45:08 pm

(https://abload.de/img/caravelcontest6tkhh.png)     (https://abload.de/img/carrackcontestigj4p.png)

FAQ: Caravel is a ten-card Kingdom Supply pile; Carrack is a five-card non-Supply pile. When you play Caravel, if you have another Caravel in your hand, trashing is optional. If you do trash two Caravels: (1) you get the +1 Card, +1 Action, +$1 from the first one you played, but not the second one you trashed; and (2) you only gain a Carrack if there are Carracks left in the pile (there generally will be, unless there is a card that allows players to gain Caravel from the trash). If you play a Command card that plays Caravel, you only get Carrack if you are able to trash that card and an actual Caravel from your hand (i.e., if the Command card plays Caravel without moving it from the top of the deck, you will not be able to trash two Caravels to gain a Carrack).
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #108: How Deep is your Pile?
Post by: Timinou on March 18, 2021, 08:46:21 am
EDIT: Updated Version
(https://i.imgur.com/IZ3pi7Y.png)

Quote from: Rabbit
$4 - Action-Reaction
+1 Card
+1 Action
If you have exactly 2 Rabbits in play, +$2 and gain a Rabbit.
-
When any player gains a Rabbit, you may return this from your hand to its pile for +2 Cards and +$1.

Quote from: Original Version
(https://i.imgur.com/QwKWb02.png)

The number of Rabbits in the supply pile is 8 plus two times the number of players (i.e. 12 in a 2-player game, 14 in a 3-player game, etc).

The Reaction serves two purposes: (i) ability to use Rabbit for a larger handsize instead of the Peddler effect, and (ii) to potentially give players some control over the endgame to prevent a pileout. 

There are some tricks you could do with this, e.g. play an Ambassador to reveal a Rabbit so that other players gain a copy, and then react your own Rabbit(s) to draw.

I think a quasi-Peddler that can also gain copies of itself is fine at $4, especially given that playing the card can potentially help your opponents, but feedback is welcome.

EDIT: Made a slight tweak to change the Reaction from "When another player gains..." to "When any player gains...", similar to Falconer.
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #108: How Deep is your Pile?
Post by: silverspawn on March 18, 2021, 10:07:35 am
Looking at Market Square wording, should this should say 'from your hand'? Wouldn't be absurd to return it from play.
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #108: How Deep is your Pile?
Post by: infangthief on March 18, 2021, 10:08:21 am
This looks like a lot of fun!

I wonder if it could do with even more copies in the pile though; once they're gone they're gone (except for via Ambassador, Way of the Horse etc).
Maybe it could even withstand having +3 Cards in the Reaction part?
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #108: How Deep is your Pile?
Post by: faust on March 18, 2021, 10:36:34 am
(https://i.imgur.com/QwKWb02.png)

Quote from: Rabbit
$4 - Action-Reaction
+1 Card
+1 Action
If you have another Rabbit in play, +$1 and gain a Rabbit.
-
When any player gains a Rabbit, you may return this from your hand to its pile for +2 Cards.
This is extremely swingy. Basically, the first player to get their deck under control is able to insta-pile all the Rabbits and from then on will have like an extra $8 available every single turn.

EDIT: An illustration. Imagine a board with Donate and this. All I need to do is buy 2 Rabbits, then trash down to nothing except those, and I will get all the remaining Rabbits. I have won at that point because I have an overpowering advantage.
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #108: How Deep is your Pile?
Post by: Timinou on March 18, 2021, 10:37:31 am
Looking at Market Square wording, should this should say 'from your hand'? Wouldn't be absurd to return it from play.

Thanks - yes, that definitely not the intent.  I've modified it in the OP.

This looks like a lot of fun!

I wonder if it could do with even more copies in the pile though; once they're gone they're gone (except for via Ambassador, Way of the Horse etc).
Maybe it could even withstand having +3 Cards in the Reaction part?

Thanks for the feedback.  I need to think about the number of copies a bit more.  I initially didn't want there to be too many in the supply, since being able to gain a bunch of quasi-Peddlers into your deck might be a bit too centralizing.  I also think it's fine that the ability to React with Rabbit can eventually disappear, although I don't want that to occur too early in the game.  I'm not sure I will be able to determine the optimal pile size without playtesting, but there's definitely a few things to consider.

With regards to making the Reaction give +3 Cards, I'll also have to think about it.  Does it make players less likely to want to play Rabbits for the Peddler effect, if that means your opponents can start their turn with 7 cards or more?  +3 Cards makes it more likely that your opponents can chain Rabbits.
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #108: How Deep is your Pile?
Post by: Timinou on March 18, 2021, 10:48:08 am
(https://i.imgur.com/QwKWb02.png)

Quote from: Rabbit
$4 - Action-Reaction
+1 Card
+1 Action
If you have another Rabbit in play, +$1 and gain a Rabbit.
-
When any player gains a Rabbit, you may return this from your hand to its pile for +2 Cards.
This is extremely swingy. Basically, the first player to get their deck under control is able to insta-pile all the Rabbits and from then on will have like an extra $8 available every single turn.

I think you're right, especially if the Rabbits are uncontested early in the game.  I'll think about if there is a way to avoid that - one way could be to nerf the card so that it is no longer a cantrip and it becomes harder to gain multiple Rabbits during the same turn. 
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #108: How Deep is your Pile?
Post by: silverspawn on March 18, 2021, 10:52:19 am
"if you have exactly one other rabbit in play"?
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #108: How Deep is your Pile?
Post by: Timinou on March 18, 2021, 11:13:38 am
"if you have exactly one other rabbit in play"?

I was thinking about changing the vanilla bonus to "+1 Action, +$2" or something like that, but this could work.  Thanks for the suggestion!

It also solves the potential issue of Rabbits running out too quickly (and I don't think making more of them available in the supply is a good solution).
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #108: How Deep is your Pile?
Post by: faust on March 18, 2021, 11:27:31 am
"if you have exactly one other rabbit in play"?
I think "if you have exactly 2 Rabbits in play" is a bit shorter and clearer; both wordings work a bit differently with Commands.
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #108: How Deep is your Pile?
Post by: emtzalex on March 18, 2021, 12:20:17 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/QwKWb02.png)

Quote from: Rabbit
$4 - Action-Reaction
+1 Card
+1 Action
If you have another Rabbit in play, +$1 and gain a Rabbit.
-
When any player gains a Rabbit, you may return this from your hand to its pile for +2 Cards.
This is extremely swingy. Basically, the first player to get their deck under control is able to insta-pile all the Rabbits and from then on will have like an extra $8 available every single turn.

I think you're right, especially if the Rabbits are uncontested early in the game.  I'll think about if there is a way to avoid that - one way could be to nerf the card so that it is no longer a cantrip and it becomes harder to gain multiple Rabbits during the same turn.

Another option could be to set aside the Rabbits and gain them at the end of your turn. If you think that makes it too wordy, you could have it gain a non-Supply "Bunny"--a cantrip which sets itself aside and at the end of the turn returns itself to the Supply and gives you a Rabbit (thus moving the wordy setting aside language to the other card and slowing the multiplication element even further):

(https://i.imgur.com/rn2epV3h.png)
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #108: How Deep is your Pile?
Post by: mxdata on March 18, 2021, 07:48:13 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/QwKWb02.png)

Quote from: Rabbit
$4 - Action-Reaction
+1 Card
+1 Action
If you have another Rabbit in play, +$1 and gain a Rabbit.
-
When any player gains a Rabbit, you may return this from your hand to its pile for +2 Cards.
This is extremely swingy. Basically, the first player to get their deck under control is able to insta-pile all the Rabbits and from then on will have like an extra $8 available every single turn.

I think you're right, especially if the Rabbits are uncontested early in the game.  I'll think about if there is a way to avoid that - one way could be to nerf the card so that it is no longer a cantrip and it becomes harder to gain multiple Rabbits during the same turn.

Another option could be to set aside the Rabbits and gain them at the end of your turn. If you think that makes it too wordy, you could have it gain a non-Supply "Bunny"--a cantrip which sets itself aside and at the end of the turn returns itself to the Supply and gives you a Rabbit (thus moving the wordy setting aside language to the other card and slowing the multiplication element even further):

(https://i.imgur.com/rn2epV3h.png)

You could simplify Bunny's text slightly by making it "exchange for a Rabbit", and make Rabbit's reaction contingent on a player gaining a Bunny
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #108: How Deep is your Pile?
Post by: Timinou on March 19, 2021, 02:44:55 am
I've updated Rabbit based on the feedback received. 

(https://i.imgur.com/IZ3pi7Y.png)

You only get the Peddler effect if you get two Rabbits in play, and subsequent Rabbit plays will just be cantrips unless you can trigger the Reaction and return them to the Supply (although you can get around this with Command cards).

Now that it is harder to gain Rabbits, I did give some thought to changing the Reaction from +2 Cards to +3 Cards, but I think that could create too much of a disincentive for gaining Rabbits if your opponents have them in their deck.  Instead, I've changed it to +2 Cards and $1, as this gives an additional bonus to the active player if they are able to trigger the Reaction.

The Bunny idea is cute and I like the flavour, but I prefer not to introduce another non-Supply card.
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #108: How Deep is your Pile?
Post by: mxdata on March 19, 2021, 03:49:09 am
I've updated Rabbit based on the feedback received. 

(https://i.imgur.com/IZ3pi7Y.png)

You only get the Peddler effect if you get two Rabbits in play, and subsequent Rabbit plays will just be cantrips unless you can trigger the Reaction and return them to the Supply (although you can get around this with Command cards).

Now that it is harder to gain Rabbits, I did give some thought to changing the Reaction from +2 Cards to +3 Cards, but I think that could create too much of a disincentive for gaining Rabbits if your opponents have them in their deck.  Instead, I've changed it to +2 Cards and $1, as this gives an additional bonus to the active player if they are able to trigger the Reaction.

The Bunny idea is cute and I like the flavour, but I prefer not to introduce another non-Supply card.

It's going to be rather rare that you'll be able to use the +$1 on the reaction, since most of the time, when another player gains a Rabbit it'll be on their own turn.  Perhaps instead the reaction can be a duration, i.e., "+2 cards +$1 at the start of your next turn"?
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #108: How Deep is your Pile?
Post by: faust on March 19, 2021, 04:02:34 am
It's going to be rather rare that you'll be able to use the +$1 on the reaction, since most of the time, when another player gains a Rabbit it'll be on their own turn.  Perhaps instead the reaction can be a duration, i.e., "+2 cards +$1 at the start of your next turn"?
The text says "any player" rather than "another player".
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #108: How Deep is your Pile?
Post by: mxdata on March 19, 2021, 04:32:28 am
It's going to be rather rare that you'll be able to use the +$1 on the reaction, since most of the time, when another player gains a Rabbit it'll be on their own turn.  Perhaps instead the reaction can be a duration, i.e., "+2 cards +$1 at the start of your next turn"?
The text says "any player" rather than "another player".

Ah, I misread that.  Okay, then my comment is irrelevant
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #108: How Deep is your Pile?
Post by: DunnoItAll on March 19, 2021, 12:14:32 pm
I'm sure I can't enter more than once, but I recently, unrelated to this contest, made a card with a pile of 20, so it fits the theme pretty well.  Play-tested it and had a lot of fun with it.  Thought I'd include it here, but my Tutelage card from earlier in the thread is my entry to the contest (not this).  So, just for fun: Mice.

The key to playing Mice is that you have just enough of them, but not too many. It might be very dangerous to play with Mice without any control of your deck.  They can get out of control very easily.  If you don't have enough of them, don't worry, they'll take care of that on their own!

(https://i.imgur.com/R8Pv9bv.png)
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #108: How Deep is your Pile?
Post by: Xen3k on March 19, 2021, 02:50:25 pm
I'm sure I can't enter more than once, but I recently, unrelated to this contest, made a card with a pile of 20, so it fits the theme pretty well.  Play-tested it and had a lot of fun with it.  Thought I'd include it here, but my Tutelage card from earlier in the thread is my entry to the contest (not this).  So, just for fun: Mice.

The key to playing Mice is that you have just enough of them, but not too many. It might be very dangerous to play with Mice without any control of your deck.  They can get out of control very easily.  If you don't have enough of them, don't worry, they'll take care of that on their own!

(https://i.imgur.com/3nsZraV.png)

This is interesting. How did it play? It looks rather strong as it is essentially non terminal and can produce up to $4. How often did that happen?
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #108: How Deep is your Pile?
Post by: Holger on March 19, 2021, 03:44:53 pm
I'm sure I can't enter more than once, but I recently, unrelated to this contest, made a card with a pile of 20, so it fits the theme pretty well.  Play-tested it and had a lot of fun with it.  Thought I'd include it here, but my Tutelage card from earlier in the thread is my entry to the contest (not this).  So, just for fun: Mice.

The key to playing Mice is that you have just enough of them, but not too many. It might be very dangerous to play with Mice without any control of your deck.  They can get out of control very easily.  If you don't have enough of them, don't worry, they'll take care of that on their own!

(https://i.imgur.com/3nsZraV.png)

This is interesting. How did it play? It looks rather strong as it is essentially non terminal and can produce up to $4. How often did that happen?

It can produce any amount of $ (up to the number of Mice in your deck) AFAICS. E.g. you can get $20 Mice if you reveal 19 Mice in a row.

As long as at least half the Actions in your hand are non-Mice, Mice is essentially a non-terminal treasure card that's either better than Gold ($4+), or gives you a copy of itself for free.
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #108: How Deep is your Pile?
Post by: DunnoItAll on March 19, 2021, 04:02:42 pm
I'm sure I can't enter more than once, but I recently, unrelated to this contest, made a card with a pile of 20, so it fits the theme pretty well.  Play-tested it and had a lot of fun with it.  Thought I'd include it here, but my Tutelage card from earlier in the thread is my entry to the contest (not this).  So, just for fun: Mice.

The key to playing Mice is that you have just enough of them, but not too many. It might be very dangerous to play with Mice without any control of your deck.  They can get out of control very easily.  If you don't have enough of them, don't worry, they'll take care of that on their own!

(https://i.imgur.com/3nsZraV.png)
This is interesting. How did it play? It looks rather strong as it is essentially non terminal and can produce up to $4. How often did that happen?
I had several hands of all Mice.  There was decent trashing, so I could get it back under control. We have very few extra actions on the board, so a hand of all Mice was definitely bad. Of course, with all Mice, it is terminal. I think it needs a lot more testing on a wider variety of boards, but it was for sure interesting.
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #108: How Deep is your Pile?
Post by: Xen3k on March 19, 2021, 05:21:21 pm
I'm sure I can't enter more than once, but I recently, unrelated to this contest, made a card with a pile of 20, so it fits the theme pretty well.  Play-tested it and had a lot of fun with it.  Thought I'd include it here, but my Tutelage card from earlier in the thread is my entry to the contest (not this).  So, just for fun: Mice.

The key to playing Mice is that you have just enough of them, but not too many. It might be very dangerous to play with Mice without any control of your deck.  They can get out of control very easily.  If you don't have enough of them, don't worry, they'll take care of that on their own!

(https://i.imgur.com/3nsZraV.png)

This is interesting. How did it play? It looks rather strong as it is essentially non terminal and can produce up to $4. How often did that happen?

It can produce any amount of $ (up to the number of Mice in your deck) AFAICS. E.g. you can get $20 Mice if you reveal 19 Mice in a row.

As long as at least half the Actions in your hand are non-Mice, Mice is essentially a non-terminal treasure card that's either better than Gold ($4+), or gives you a copy of itself for free.

I completely missed that. Yeah, I can see this being really strong with enough Mice in your deck.

I'm sure I can't enter more than once, but I recently, unrelated to this contest, made a card with a pile of 20, so it fits the theme pretty well.  Play-tested it and had a lot of fun with it.  Thought I'd include it here, but my Tutelage card from earlier in the thread is my entry to the contest (not this).  So, just for fun: Mice.

The key to playing Mice is that you have just enough of them, but not too many. It might be very dangerous to play with Mice without any control of your deck.  They can get out of control very easily.  If you don't have enough of them, don't worry, they'll take care of that on their own!

(https://i.imgur.com/3nsZraV.png)
This is interesting. How did it play? It looks rather strong as it is essentially non terminal and can produce up to $4. How often did that happen?
I had several hands of all Mice.  There was decent trashing, so I could get it back under control. We have very few extra actions on the board, so a hand of all Mice was definitely bad. Of course, with all Mice, it is terminal. I think it needs a lot more testing on a wider variety of boards, but it was for sure interesting.

Yeah, I can see them being a problem at some times, but as mentioned above revealing a bunch of Mice in a row can pay off in a big way. I imagine it will be very dependent if the pile is contested and if there are ways to trash your Copper. Cool idea never the less.
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #108: How Deep is your Pile?
Post by: Mahowrath on March 19, 2021, 08:51:29 pm
24 hour-ish notice: please post any updates to submissions below this post. The submissions I have are:

UserEntry
pubbyDolmen
AquilaExpedition Camp
gambit05Revenant
X-traInstitute (+ Grant)
Xen3kPigeon
mandioca15Stockade
fika monsterRing Master + Circus Members
infangthiefFlorist
majiponiDevil’s advocate (+ Reverse Hierarchy)
mxdataDistant Island
NoMoreFunKey to the City
faustTulip + Rare Tulip
silverspawnMissionary
grepArmy of the Dead
GubumpDeveloping City
emtzalexAstrologer + Zodiac pile
The AlchemistAir + Water + Earth + Fire
DunnoItAllMice
spinefluGentry
spheremonkCaravel + Carrack
TiminouRabbit

@mxdata: Can I confirm you're looking to have your updated entry judged: the set aside version rather than the tavern mat version?
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #108: How Deep is your Pile?
Post by: mxdata on March 19, 2021, 09:59:07 pm
24 hour-ish notice: please post any updates to submissions below this post. The submissions I have are:

UserEntry
pubbyDolmen
AquilaExpedition Camp
gambit05Revenant
X-traInstitute (+ Grant)
Xen3kPigeon
mandioca15Stockade
fika monsterRing Master + Circus Members
infangthiefFlorist
majiponiDevil’s advocate (+ Reverse Hierarchy)
mxdataDistant Island
NoMoreFunKey to the City
faustTulip + Rare Tulip
silverspawnMissionary
grepArmy of the Dead
GubumpDeveloping City
emtzalexAstrologer + Zodiac pile
The AlchemistAir + Water + Earth + Fire
DunnoItAllTutelage + Noble Knight + Traits
spinefluGentry
spheremonkCaravel + Carrack
TiminouRabbit

@mxdata: Can I confirm you're looking to have your updated entry judged: the set aside version rather than the tavern mat version?

Yes, the updated set-aside version is the one I'm submitting
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #108: How Deep is your Pile?
Post by: DunnoItAll on March 19, 2021, 10:04:13 pm
24 hour-ish notice: please post any updates to submissions below this post. The submissions I have are:

UserEntry
pubbyDolmen
AquilaExpedition Camp
gambit05Revenant
X-traInstitute (+ Grant)
Xen3kPigeon
mandioca15Stockade
fika monsterRing Master + Circus Members
infangthiefFlorist
majiponiDevil’s advocate (+ Reverse Hierarchy)
mxdataDistant Island
NoMoreFunKey to the City
faustTulip + Rare Tulip
silverspawnMissionary
grepArmy of the Dead
GubumpDeveloping City
emtzalexAstrologer + Zodiac pile
The AlchemistAir + Water + Earth + Fire
DunnoItAllTutelage + Noble Knight + Traits
spinefluGentry
spheremonkCaravel + Carrack
TiminouRabbit

@mxdata: Can I confirm you're looking to have your updated entry judged: the set aside version rather than the tavern mat version?

I'd like to change my entry to Mice instead of Tutelage if that's allowed.
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #108: How Deep is your Pile?
Post by: Mahowrath on March 20, 2021, 08:11:06 pm
Okay, that's the deadline. I'll aim to dispense feedback and announce the winner by this time tomorrow.
It's going to be quite the task; so many creative entries!
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #108: How Deep is your Pile?
Post by: mathdude on March 20, 2021, 08:21:42 pm
Deadline: Entries by 23:59 (GMT) Saturday 20th. Will put out a 24-hour reminder Friday night, and list the nominations I've seen.

Okay, that's the deadline. I'll aim to dispense feedback and announce the winner by this time tomorrow.
It's going to be quite the task; so many creative entries!

Oh no!  I was just opening up the computer now to try to put something together.

Ah, I see now... you said GMT, not forum time. :-(  Oh well, I'll try for next week's contest.
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #108: How Deep is your Pile?
Post by: Mahowrath on March 20, 2021, 09:37:20 pm
@mathdude If it's submitted in the next few hours I'll still allow it
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #108: How Deep is your Pile?
Post by: mathdude on March 20, 2021, 10:11:25 pm
@mathdude If it's submitted in the next few hours I'll still allow it

Thanks.  I'll just try to submit for the next contest.  I didn't have anything ready to submit yet... it was just the first time I had time to sit down and think after a busy week.

But I have moved on to lesson planning (teaching high school math!) and the mafia forum.  So I'll pass this time... and I'll pay more attention to the timezone next time!
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #108: How Deep is your Pile?
Post by: Mahowrath on March 21, 2021, 10:58:43 pm
Judgement

First off, thanks again to everyone that entered. There were a great deal of high quality entries, and it pained me having to go through your creative cards with a fine tooth comb looking for reasons to avoid shortlisting them. If I sound dismissive or unappreciative in any of my feedback, please put it down to time constraints; I enjoyed reading every entry.
Needless to say, there's a limit to how well I can estimate the playability of entries without going to gambit05 playtesting lengths, and I apologise in advance for any margin of error on my part.

Feedback:

userentry nameLinknotes
pubbyDolmenhttp://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20714.msg864160#msg864160Nice entry from pubby: Dolmen asks how Dominion would differ with a victory card "stopper" under each supply pile. This makes an early 3-pile less likely, particularly in 2P where VCs are often looked down upon in favour of building. Posible downsides are the 4+ multiplayer swinginess of who randomly gets the first shot at each Dolmen, and in 2P we'd have to see whether a 13 card Province pile substantially increases the first player advantage
AquilaExpedition Camphttp://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20714.msg864179#msg864179Resources are a cool addition; they're like spare parts for engine-crafting. The ability to check the second card when buying introduces a degree of luck, but helps get past the unwanted resources in a given game. Expedition camp is a cheap Outpost in the rare circumstances that you can set up the second turn, but more often than not looks to be a one-shot resource gainer. The lack of control over what resources you're gaining looks frustrating here, unless you're just playing a generic Action-based strategy.
gambit05Revenanthttp://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20714.msg864183#msg864183Revenant brings those often taken for granted +Actions and +Buy to the table, in an often limited pile, with a one-shot card draw ability for the late game. I assume the modified pile size functions to bring the one-shot ability into play faster in small games, but I wouldn't expect this to pile in such games unless the actions or buy were valuable enough that you wouldn't wish to part with them.
X-traInstitute + Granthttp://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20714.msg864189#msg864189Increasing the starting deck size is new to me; I'm a big fan of how this blows open the typical opening. These cards complement eachother well; institute is likely your go-to draw card in this action-sparse deck, and in a 4-4-4 split (27.5% odds) you could open 3 of them. For completeness, the other opening splits occur with probabilities: 5-4-3: 65.9%, 5-5-2: 6.6% My first thought was that grant is too harsh on anyone trying to build an engine; that said, I think there is potential for avid engine fans to trash their grants on the second shuffle where the pieces are present. This would certainly make for a memorable game.
Xen3kPigeonhttp://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20714.msg864191#msg864191I enjoyed this card's flavour; pigeons are indeed the rats of the bird kingdom. The lonely pigeon is a self-gaining Copper, but collides to cantrip+silver. This walks the fine line of being an easily gained nuisance, without quite fully sabotaging your game.
mandioca15Stockadehttp://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20714.msg864198#msg864198Interesting concept; as the game goes on, you could see this pile self-balancing. Having to return these from play when you start greening is a drawback, but more than made up for by the sheer amount of early/mid game draw. You'd likely let this do all your drawing while you build towards a three-pile, and it would do it easily; your first play of it could well be a full deck draw. This will all too often be an unskippable card in 2P, which makes it rather unfortunate if your opponent picks this up on a 5-2. I'm not sure how I'd balance this; but one thing you could consider is splitting the stacks into tiers, and drawing an amount depending on which tier the top card in the supply belongs to? Regardless, best of luck perfecting this idea.
fika monsterRing Master + Circus Membershttp://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20714.msg864216#msg864216This is fun; and appeals to my inner set-completionist. That said, I'm a little concerned by the power of the circus members; a 5-gainer is already rare at $5, but these cards, though limited, clearly transcend $5 value. Maybe Ring Master would enjoy costing more; or there could be another implementation for gaining circus members other than from a pile of gainers from which you'd only ever want one or two at most? Anyway, I look forward to seeing what you do with these guys.
infangthiefFlorist http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20714.msg864219#msg864219Florist is a cantrip that gives you some control over the events pile from which it is gained. The idea certainly works, and I agree with the decisions made to avoid swinginess. With this card, either the top flower is useful and the card is gained organically, or a lower flower is game-changing and encourages buying a Florist directly. Either way though, I'm not convinced this adds enough to the game.
majiponiDevil’s advocate (+ Reverse Hierarchy)http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20714.msg864286#msg864286Devil's advocate asks whether you prefer cash or trash, and how much you mind giving the next player the trashier version of the card. I think there are a lot of situations in 2P where you simply don't ever buy this first.
mxdataDistant Islandhttp://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20714.msg864288#msg864288Distant Island is a strong precursor for any players looking to start greening. For the extra coin, it significantly beats Island in that it requires less draw and actions to perform its task. You would only ever buy Duchy in preference ot this if the game were ending, or you couldn't manage deck control. I feel sorry for Duchy in games with this.
NoMoreFunKey to the Cityhttp://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20714.msg864291#msg864291Key to the City takes the existing Key concept and runs with it. Depending on how awkward it is to pick up a $2, you may find yourself trying to get this in early, or just fighting it when your opponent gets one into play. Could be stalematey when both players have one in deck. Constantly having to empty the pile to thwart your opponents' key could be tedious.
faustTulip + Rare Tuliphttp://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20714.msg864292#msg864292Tulip is sort of a Spoils that gains you a Rare Tulip. The interaction here is pretty neat; if one plays with these and then draws their whole deck with the tulip pile low, they can potentially buy out tulips, draw one in with rare tulip, play a tulip, buy a tulip, play a rare tulip... to duplicate their rare tulips at a price of -$1. Is this worthwhile? Probably, particularly if you can prevent the Tulips from returning to the supply.
silverspawnMissionaryhttp://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20714.msg864307#msg864307Missionary asks the question "how much do you love terminal card draw?". Naturally this depends on whether there are villages in the kingdom. In most cases there are, and having your draw buy itself is difficult to turn down, even if the uncontested pile would end up gaining you 20.
grepArmy of the Deadhttp://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20714.msg864341#msg864341This looks entertaining. $8@8 seems a reasonable price for this project if you can spike it first. The first mover advantage on it could be considered swingy mind.
GubumpDeveloping Cityhttp://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20714.msg864387#msg864387This is an interesting card, and I think I also prefer the updated version. Developing City is kind of a one-shot Lost City, with the option to sacrifice another action for two of itself. Coupled with a workshop variant, this can be a deferred Lost City, plus any WV perks granted, or at least until either pile runs dry. I like it.
emtzalexAstrologer + Zodiac pilehttp://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20714.msg864436#msg864436Astrologer is an interesting card to consider. With few enough in your opponents' hands, you may be able to build around them becoming one of the later effects, but such a strategy would require a lot of profitless setup, and could easily fall apart. More likely, you and your opponent would only buy some to take advantage of the early village zodiacs, and an underterminaled turn could still then see a player ruin them for everyone. Perhaps these are best spammed with gainers, and cycled to the nearest useful non-terminal option.
The AlchemistAir + Water + Earth + Firehttp://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20714.msg864457#msg864457This is a novel idea, and does a good job matching elements to effects. The effects are generally pretty strong, though as you say, some more essential than others, depending on the kingdom. Earth seems the most likely to be a dead card, and players have little incentive to remove dead cards from atop the pile.
DunnoItAllMicehttp://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20714.msg864698#msg864698Mice feels like a deceptively weak-looking card. Opening with two of these, one could reasonably expect to gain another two T3, and gaining two mice or being in the money from there on out. Throwing in a trasher might be worthwhile, but I would expect a monolithic mice deck to be pretty happy greening in no time. I appreciate this quick analysis probably pales in comparison to your playtesting; it would be fun to see how this played out in your games.
spinefluGentryhttp://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20714.msg864481#msg864481This works for sure; a card similar to Great Hall, but more malleable to available draw/actions. Groom aficionados will be ecstatic to work their way through 16 of these. Gentry is fine.
spheremonkCaravel + Carrackhttp://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20714.msg864522#msg864522This is cute. Caravel is an expensive peddler variant that becomes easily worth the investment if you can collide them for Carracks. A good card, up against strong competition.
TiminouRabbithttp://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20714.msg864570#msg864570Rabbit takes a little unrewarded investment to get started, but evens out once you can make a pair collide. With the use of throne room variants, you can milk a huge amount of value out of these, but otherwise these are a fairly static payload. I'm not fully convinced the gaining effect justifies the pile size tweak, but I appreciate the effort.

With all that in mind, our runners up are:
6th: Timinou's Rabbit
5th: pubby's Dolmen
4th: faust's Tulip + Rare Tulip

3rd: X-tra's Institute + Grant
2nd: Gubump's Developing City

And the winner:
1st: Xen3k's Pigeon

Quote from: Xen3k
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51037297691_9b5eeef303_b.jpg)

Congrats Xen3k! Your scourge of a card nosed out in front of the competition for the novel way in which it unassumingly creates chaos, while creatively taking to the challenge requirement of varying a pile/deck size.

Thanks everyone
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #108: How Deep is your Pile?
Post by: faust on March 22, 2021, 05:02:41 am
Pigeon is a weird card. I think there are boards where it is optimal for both players to never do anything if Pigeon is in the kingdom (think Wall with no trashing). That seems... problematic, to say the least.
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #108: How Deep is your Pile?
Post by: infangthief on March 22, 2021, 06:24:14 am
Well judged. Some great entries.

Pigeon is a weird card. I think there are boards where it is optimal for both players to never do anything if Pigeon is in the kingdom (think Wall with no trashing). That seems... problematic, to say the least.

Xen3k, I wonder if you could avoid this by making the penalty per-player, rather than global. i.e. buying a card from a pile unlocks that pile for you, but no-one else.
Having a nest token per player per pile would get much too fiddly, but how about this wording:

Quote
Pigeon - $4
Action
+1 Action
+$1
You may discard a Pigeon for +1 Card and +$1. Otherwise, gain a Pigeon.
----
When you buy a card, if there is no copy of it on your Pigeon mat, put one there from the Supply and gain a Pigeon.

Some side effects:
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #108: How Deep is your Pile?
Post by: Xen3k on March 22, 2021, 07:33:46 am
MahoWrath, thanks for Judging! I'll try to have the new competition up later today. Thanks for your work!

Well judged. Some great entries.

Pigeon is a weird card. I think there are boards where it is optimal for both players to never do anything if Pigeon is in the kingdom (think Wall with no trashing). That seems... problematic, to say the least.

Xen3k, I wonder if you could avoid this by making the penalty per-player, rather than global. i.e. buying a card from a pile unlocks that pile for you, but no-one else.
Having a nest token per player per pile would get much too fiddly, but how about this wording:

Quote
Pigeon - $4
Action
+1 Action
+$1
You may discard a Pigeon for +1 Card and +$1. Otherwise, gain a Pigeon.
----
When you buy a card, if there is no copy of it on your Pigeon mat, put one there from the Supply and gain a Pigeon.

Some side effects:
  • all supply piles would be effectively smaller. You could mitigate some of the effects of that by adding "In games using this, you may buy or gain cards from your Pigeon mat."
  • weirdness with split piles, Knights, Castles etc.

Good ideas, alternate options would be to take the best token and gain a Pigeon unless you already have a certain number of tokens. Still does not completely address the criticism,  but is something.
Title: Re: Weekly Design Contest #108: How Deep is your Pile?
Post by: Holger on March 22, 2021, 08:46:27 am
Pigeon is a weird card. I think there are boards where it is optimal for both players to never do anything if Pigeon is in the kingdom (think Wall with no trashing). That seems... problematic, to say the least.

Agreed. Even in a one-card kingdom with Pigeon as the only Kingdom card, it's at best marginally useful to buy any card (e.g. Silver) first, as the Nest forces you to gain Pigeons, which are at worst a self-gaining Copper/dead card (when not played) and at best (when colliding in pairs) half-silvers. And your opponent can then buy cards from the pile without penalty, only a half-turn later.