Dominion Strategy Forum

Dominion => Dominion General Discussion => Topic started by: BBobb on November 09, 2020, 01:05:27 pm

Title: Inventor wording
Post by: BBobb on November 09, 2020, 01:05:27 pm
This has probably already been answered somewhere, but I am going to ask anyway. Why wasn't Inventor worded as
Gain a card costing up to $3.
______________________________________________________________
While this is in play, cards cost $1 less

Title: Re: Inventor wording
Post by: LastFootnote on November 09, 2020, 01:21:44 pm
Two reasons. First, Donald X. is now avoiding "while this is in play" wherever possible. And unfortunately, that's everywhere! These days, if a card won't work without "while this is in play", that card probably won't get to exist. Luckily I don't think that's yet caused a card to be cut during testing, but I could be misremembering. Anyway that's why all recent effects like this have been "this turn".

Second, in the case of Inventor (and Priest), I think the published wording is probably clearer. I think your suggested wording would send most players to the rulebook, wondering whether the cost reduction applied to the gain on the card. I get that it's elegant, but elegance does not always equate to clarity.
Title: Re: Inventor wording
Post by: scolapasta on November 09, 2020, 01:22:26 pm
This has probably already been answered somewhere, but I am going to ask anyway. Why wasn't Inventor worded as
Gain a card costing up to $3.
______________________________________________________________
While this is in play, cards cost $1 less

For one thing, it can't be Throne Roomed that way (at least not the cost reduction part).
Title: Re: Inventor wording
Post by: BBobb on November 09, 2020, 01:49:02 pm
This has probably already been answered somewhere, but I am going to ask anyway. Why wasn't Inventor worded as
Gain a card costing up to $3.
______________________________________________________________
While this is in play, cards cost $1 less

For one thing, it can't be Throne Roomed that way (at least not the cost reduction part).

I know that it can't be throned this way, but in What Donald X. might do with a time machine he said "I would consider whether I like Bridge as is, in its Throne-able glory, or if I would rather phrase them the way I think such stuff in general should be phrased, like Highway etc." so I would have assumed that he would have made this non-throne-able also.
Title: Re: Inventor wording
Post by: BBobb on November 09, 2020, 01:51:00 pm
Two reasons. First, Donald X. is now avoiding "while this is in play" wherever possible. And unfortunately, that's everywhere! These days, if a card won't work without "while this is in play", that card probably won't get to exist. Luckily I don't think that's yet caused a card to be cut during testing, but I could be misremembering. Anyway that's why all recent effects like this have been "this turn".

Second, in the case of Inventor (and Priest), I think the published wording is probably clearer. I think your suggested wording would send most players to the rulebook, wondering whether the cost reduction applied to the gain on the card. I get that it's elegant, but elegance does not always equate to clarity.

I definitely agree with you here. I know before I found the forum and dominionstrategy that I would have checked the rules. On the other hand, I do not think that it would cause much confusion if it was put in the FAQ inside the rulebooks. Also, why is Donald X. trying to avoid "while this is in play." I find that phrase very self explanatory and not confusing
Title: Re: Inventor wording
Post by: GendoIkari on November 09, 2020, 02:36:35 pm
Two reasons. First, Donald X. is now avoiding "while this is in play" wherever possible. And unfortunately, that's everywhere! These days, if a card won't work without "while this is in play", that card probably won't get to exist. Luckily I don't think that's yet caused a card to be cut during testing, but I could be misremembering. Anyway that's why all recent effects like this have been "this turn".

Second, in the case of Inventor (and Priest), I think the published wording is probably clearer. I think your suggested wording would send most players to the rulebook, wondering whether the cost reduction applied to the gain on the card. I get that it's elegant, but elegance does not always equate to clarity.

I definitely agree with you here. I know before I found the forum and dominionstrategy that I would have checked the rules. On the other hand, I do not think that it would cause much confusion if it was put in the FAQ inside the rulebooks. Also, why is Donald X. trying to avoid "while this is in play." I find that phrase very self explanatory and not confusing

While I think it's very clear and not confusing as well; we have seen many questions from newer players asking about why they didn't get 2 (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/9/92/VP.png/16px-VP.png) tokens when buying a card after Throning a Goons, for example.
Title: Re: Inventor wording
Post by: Donald X. on November 09, 2020, 03:00:00 pm
I know that it can't be throned this way, but in What Donald X. might do with a time machine he said "I would consider whether I like Bridge as is, in its Throne-able glory, or if I would rather phrase them the way I think such stuff in general should be phrased, like Highway etc." so I would have assumed that he would have made this non-throne-able also.
That was just a phase. First I phrased things like "this turn," then I thought "no it should be while-in-play," then I worked out that actually I preferred "this turn."
Title: Re: Inventor wording
Post by: silverspawn on November 09, 2020, 03:16:57 pm
I think it's a safe bet that the cards that have a horizontal line with in-play effects are more confusing now than they used to be because of ways. You can play travelers as way of anything (other than horse) and exchange them, and it's often really good. Ditto with Highway.
Title: Re: Inventor wording
Post by: LastFootnote on November 09, 2020, 04:05:07 pm
Even I was surprised to learn, way back in the day when Alchemy was new, that throning an Herbalist didn’t let you topdeck two Treasures in Clean-up.
Title: Re: Inventor wording
Post by: BBobb on November 14, 2020, 02:04:07 am
Just wondering, why has Donald X. stopped using the "while this is in play" wording. Is it because of the new ways that emulators work (and all of the ways).
Title: Re: Inventor wording
Post by: RoundTower on November 14, 2020, 12:52:59 pm
I think it's a safe bet that the cards that have a horizontal line with in-play effects are more confusing now than they used to be because of ways. You can play travelers as way of anything (other than horse) and exchange them, and it's often really good. Ditto with Highway.

I don't think travellers work with Butterfly either. Or Turtle? And you don't get the real benefit from Way of the Rat with anything but the starting travellers, though you might still want to use it with say Treasure Hunter or if you have some draw-to-X.
Title: Re: Inventor wording
Post by: Donald X. on November 14, 2020, 02:12:46 pm
Just wondering, why has Donald X. stopped using the "while this is in play" wording. Is it because of the new ways that emulators work (and all of the ways).
No, I didn't know those were coming.

I switched from "this turn" to "while this is in play" because "while this is in play" has better tracking; you e.g. Procession a Highway and the card no longer in play no longer does anything, hooray. I switched back to "this turn" because it turned out people get more confused by "while this is in play."
Title: Re: Inventor wording
Post by: Honkeyfresh on December 04, 2020, 12:04:55 pm
I think it's a safe bet that the cards that have a horizontal line with in-play effects are more confusing now than they used to be because of ways. You can play travelers as way of anything (other than horse) and exchange them, and it's often really good. Ditto with Highway.

I don't think travellers work with Butterfly either. Or Turtle? And you don't get the real benefit from Way of the Rat with anything but the starting travellers, though you might still want to use it with say Treasure Hunter or if you have some draw-to-X.

You can butterfly page/peasant cards, but not other travelers as the other cards do not have a supply pile. This actually is important of you might want to flip some into VP cards near the endgame.

(https://nimbusweb.me/box/attachment/4948666/uk0d31r4l1na4xsoosmz/DUh6MBgvfWVPeOmo/screenshot-dominion.games-2020.12.04-12_15_57.png)
Title: Re: Inventor wording
Post by: AJD on December 04, 2020, 12:12:48 pm
Way of the Butterfly says "its pile", not "the supply", so you can butterfly cards that don't come from the supply. (But not cards from the Black Market deck?)
Title: Re: Inventor wording
Post by: Honkeyfresh on December 04, 2020, 12:22:23 pm
Way of the Butterfly says "its pile", not "the supply", so you can butterfly cards that don't come from the supply. (But not cards from the Black Market deck?)

I do know that you cannot butterfly the necropolis. 
Title: Re: Inventor wording
Post by: LastFootnote on December 04, 2020, 01:11:32 pm
Way of the Butterfly says "its pile", not "the supply", so you can butterfly cards that don't come from the supply. (But not cards from the Black Market deck?)

I do know that you cannot butterfly the necropolis.
Right, there is never a Necropolis pile.
Title: Re: Inventor wording
Post by: GendoIkari on December 04, 2020, 02:26:30 pm
Way of the Butterfly says "its pile", not "the supply", so you can butterfly cards that don't come from the supply. (But not cards from the Black Market deck?)

I do know that you cannot butterfly the necropolis.
Right, there is never a Necropolis pile.

Do the written rules ever lay out a clear and precise way to know if something has a pile or not? I know that individual things, like Shelters, mention that they don't have a pile. But I think it's a legitimate thing to wonder why unused Necropolises don't form a pile, while Spoils do form a pile (but also, when do Spoils form a pile? Is there a Spoils pile in every game of Dominion always; or only if there is a card in the game that mentions "Spoils"?)
Title: Re: Inventor wording
Post by: AJD on December 04, 2020, 08:18:31 pm
Way of the Butterfly says "its pile", not "the supply", so you can butterfly cards that don't come from the supply. (But not cards from the Black Market deck?)

I do know that you cannot butterfly the necropolis.
Right, there is never a Necropolis pile.

Do the written rules ever lay out a clear and precise way to know if something has a pile or not? I know that individual things, like Shelters, mention that they don't have a pile. But I think it's a legitimate thing to wonder why unused Necropolises don't form a pile, while Spoils do form a pile (but also, when do Spoils form a pile? Is there a Spoils pile in every game of Dominion always; or only if there is a card in the game that mentions "Spoils"?)

Used to be you knew Spoils had a pile because of the instruction "gain a Spoils from the Spoils pile", but I guess that doesn't work anymore.

I'm totally down with the interpretation that the Spoils pile is technically present in any game of Dominion; you just never interact with it in most games.
Title: Re: Inventor wording
Post by: mxdata on December 05, 2020, 02:51:20 pm
Way of the Butterfly says "its pile", not "the supply", so you can butterfly cards that don't come from the supply. (But not cards from the Black Market deck?)

I do know that you cannot butterfly the necropolis.
Right, there is never a Necropolis pile.

Do the written rules ever lay out a clear and precise way to know if something has a pile or not? I know that individual things, like Shelters, mention that they don't have a pile. But I think it's a legitimate thing to wonder why unused Necropolises don't form a pile, while Spoils do form a pile (but also, when do Spoils form a pile? Is there a Spoils pile in every game of Dominion always; or only if there is a card in the game that mentions "Spoils"?)

I would say that cards only have "a pile" if there's some way to gain them during the game, whether it's by buying them (as Supply piles) or gaining them via some other card (as non-Supply piles).  Since it's impossible ever to gain a Shelter or Heirloom (excepting things like using Treasurer to gain Haunted Mirror from the trash), there's no pile for those.  But as far as I know, there's no such explicitly defined rule
Title: Re: Inventor wording
Post by: AJD on December 05, 2020, 05:51:13 pm
I would say that cards only have "a pile" if there's some way to gain them during the game, whether it's by buying them (as Supply piles) or gaining them via some other card (as non-Supply piles).  Since it's impossible ever to gain a Shelter or Heirloom (excepting things like using Treasurer to gain Haunted Mirror from the trash), there's no pile for those.  But as far as I know, there's no such explicitly defined rule

It's never possible to gain a Bat, but they have a pile nonetheless!
Title: Re: Inventor wording
Post by: mxdata on December 05, 2020, 10:25:15 pm
I would say that cards only have "a pile" if there's some way to gain them during the game, whether it's by buying them (as Supply piles) or gaining them via some other card (as non-Supply piles).  Since it's impossible ever to gain a Shelter or Heirloom (excepting things like using Treasurer to gain Haunted Mirror from the trash), there's no pile for those.  But as far as I know, there's no such explicitly defined rule

It's never possible to gain a Bat, but they have a pile nonetheless!

Oh, good point.  Travelers too.  I suppose I should say "gain or exchange" then
Title: Re: Inventor wording
Post by: Jeebus on December 12, 2020, 05:04:49 pm
The non-Kingdom cards that form a pile are all marked "(This is not in the Supply)". The other non-Kingdom cards instead start in a specified location (the players' decks for Shelters and Heirlooms, in the trash for Zombies). It would probably be good if those cards were marked "(This doesn't belong to a pile)" or something.