Dominion Strategy Forum

Dominion => Rules Questions => Topic started by: sudhish86 on October 16, 2020, 03:20:20 pm

Title: using a trader on beggar
Post by: sudhish86 on October 16, 2020, 03:20:20 pm
when i played a beggar to get 3 coppers to my hand, i reacted with a trader. however, they were not gained into my hand, but into my deck.

is this correct, or a bug?
Title: Re: using a trader on beggar
Post by: Titandrake on October 16, 2020, 03:23:48 pm
This is correct, when you use Trader it's a different gain, and Trader doesn't know where the gained card was "supposed" to go, so it defaults to discard. The location is only attached to the initial gain event.
Title: Re: using a trader on beggar
Post by: sudhish86 on October 16, 2020, 03:27:46 pm
appreciate it.
Title: Re: using a trader on beggar
Post by: gambit05 on October 16, 2020, 03:48:25 pm
I think there is potentially an update of Trader in progress.

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20333.0 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20333.0)

If true, wouldn't the exchange function mean that the Coppers go to hand?

Edit: Although counter-intuitive for me, the exchanged new card seems to always go to the discard:

http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Exchange (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Exchange)
Title: Re: using a trader on beggar
Post by: GendoIkari on October 16, 2020, 04:20:02 pm
I think there is potentially an update of Trader in progress.

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20333.0 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20333.0)

If true, wouldn't the exchange function mean that the Coppers go to hand?

Edit: Although counter-intuitive for me, the exchanged new card seems to always go to the discard:

http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Exchange (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Exchange)

This makes me realize that exchange is weird with things that gain to your hand... because the card has already been put into your hand by the time you exchange it; it's not publicly visible or trackable.

Also... with updated Trader, if you gain a Trader to your hand, can you immediately reveal that same Trader to exchange itself for a Silver? I don't see why not.
Title: Re: using a trader on beggar
Post by: Donald X. on October 17, 2020, 11:58:16 pm
Also... with updated Trader, if you gain a Trader to your hand, can you immediately reveal that same Trader to exchange itself for a Silver? I don't see why not.
yes
Title: Re: using a trader on beggar
Post by: Jeebus on October 18, 2020, 07:45:42 am
This makes me realize that exchange is weird with things that gain to your hand... because the card has already been put into your hand by the time you exchange it; it's not publicly visible or trackable.

In what way is that different from all other cards that move a gained card, like Royal Seal, Watchtower, Cargo Ship, Innovation, etc?
Title: Re: using a trader on beggar
Post by: GendoIkari on October 18, 2020, 10:20:27 am
This makes me realize that exchange is weird with things that gain to your hand... because the card has already been put into your hand by the time you exchange it; it's not publicly visible or trackable.

In what way is that different from all other cards that move a gained card, like Royal Seal, Watchtower, Cargo Ship, Innovation, etc?

I guess itís not and I just never thought about it before! Actually itís worse with top-decking, because the card isnít revealed after it goes to your hand; thereís no accountability to stop someone from top-decking another card. Of course, Iím on record as saying that accountability is only a nice-to-have, not a necessity. Even MTG has this exact same ďproblem with their Miracle ability.
Title: Re: using a trader on beggar
Post by: Jeebus on October 18, 2020, 11:19:10 am
I guess itís not and I just never thought about it before! Actually itís worse with top-decking, because the card isnít revealed after it goes to your hand; thereís no accountability to stop someone from top-decking another card. Of course, Iím on record as saying that accountability is only a nice-to-have, not a necessity. Even MTG has this exact same ďproblem with their Miracle ability.

Isn't that mostly a theoretical problem? Because in practice people don't add the card to their hand first. They just put it straight where they want to move it to, or with Trader/Changeling I guess they don't even pick it up usually. If someone does add it to their hand before topdecking it, for instance, it seems like the only reason would be in order to cheat.
Title: Re: using a trader on beggar
Post by: GendoIkari on October 18, 2020, 12:07:08 pm
I guess itís not and I just never thought about it before! Actually itís worse with top-decking, because the card isnít revealed after it goes to your hand; thereís no accountability to stop someone from top-decking another card. Of course, Iím on record as saying that accountability is only a nice-to-have, not a necessity. Even MTG has this exact same ďproblem with their Miracle ability.

Isn't that mostly a theoretical problem? Because in practice people don't add the card to their hand first. They just put it straight where they want to move it to, or with Trader/Changeling I guess they don't even pick it up usually. If someone does add it to their hand before topdecking it, for instance, it seems like the only reason would be in order to cheat.

Yes, it's an issue with the technicality of the rules, not with the way the game is played in practice. Similar to Tunnel's ability to be revealed even when discarding multiple cards such that Tunnel didn't end up on top... the rules (previously) said that you can't look through your discard pile, but also that you could reveal a Tunnel that was somewhere in the middle of your discard pile. In practice, people just reveal Tunnel as they are discarding it, not after.