Dominion Strategy Forum

Miscellaneous => Forum Games => Mafia Game Threads => Topic started by: Swowl on August 18, 2020, 12:25:57 am

Title: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Game Over! Town Wins!
Post by: Swowl on August 18, 2020, 12:25:57 am

RMM58: Memento Mafia

This is a closed Set Up RMM made for 18 players.
You will find all the given game information in the following post.

MOD: Swowl
Co-Mod: LaLight


Sign Up List:
1. MiX - confirmed
2. EFHW - confirmed
3. WestCoastDidds - Killed Night 4 - Thomas Lennon, Town Doctor
4. scolapasta - confirmed
5. faust Eddie - Exiled Day 3 - Sammy Jenkins, Town Insulin Doctor
6. chairs - Killed Night 2 - Townsen, Town Modified Motion Detector
7. hypercube - confirmed
8. Joth - Exiled Day 2 - John G., Mafia Aligned Godfather, 1 Shot Strongman
9. Galzria/Jack Rudd - Exiled Day 4 - Natalie, Mafia 2 Shot Influencer
10. Ashersky - Killed Night 3 - John Smith, Town Activated IC
11. Glooble - confirmed
12. PPS - confirmed
13. Awaclus - confirmed
14. gkrieg - Killed Night 1 - Town Tracker
15. Mathdude - Exiled Day 1 - Town Veng Cop
16. Dylan - confirmed

Tags: Raptor

Game Tracker:


The Rules:

The Golden Rule:
This is a game. Everyone who signs up to play must be considerate of each other, never get personal, and focus on having fun. Once the game starts, having signed up is a commitment: inactivity is just as inconsiderate as rude comments.

The Standard Rules:
1. No communication between players outside of the game thread or shared QTs at any time. This includes passing references, jokes, or cases in other games or threads, whether in context or not.
2. If the game thread is locked, do not post. If you are unsure if something is locked, ask the mod by PM.
3. Direct or verbatim quoting of mod-provided information (including QT opening and closing times) is strictly forbidden. Paraphrasing is okay.
4. Actions with instructions that do not specify a game state will be resolved in the order they are received.
5. All night actions must be submitted within 36 hours of day ending.
6. Players must post once every 24 hours.
7. Do not edit or delete posts, ever. If you need to clarify or correct something, post again.
8. Invisible text, font size less than 10, and spoiler tags are not allowed.
9. Cryptography is not allowed.
10. The time between an exile being reached and a flip being provided is called twilight. All players may continue posting during this time, including the exiled player.
11. Dead players may not post in thread or QT, except their Role QT. An exiled player is not "dead" until a flip has been provided.
12. Personal multimedia, such as video or audio recordings, are not allowed in the game thread.

The Voting Rules:
1. Votes should be in this format: Vote: Playername. Unambigiuous nicknames are acceptable, or any string that uniquely identifies a user. Note that the point of voting is, in fact, unambiguity, and attempting to make it unclear to other players (or, of course, mods) which user you are voting for is very ill-advised.
2. Unvotes should be in this format: unvote or Unvote: Playername.
3. Unvotes are not required if changing your vote from one player to another.
4. You may vote: no exile.
5. Exiles occur when a simple majority (rounded up) of living players is reached. Once reached, an exile cannot be undone.
6. If a majority lynch is not reached by the Day's deadline, no lynch occurs.

The Rest:
1. Bold, Brown and/or Purple text are reserved for the MODs. Players may not use it.
2. If you have an issue or problem with the game, please PM the Mod. Do not post complaints in the game thread.
3. Mods make mistakes - please point them out gently. If they can be corrected, they will. If irreversible, they will stand as final to be commiserated over after the game.
4. If a mod error disadvantages one faction greatly, the game may be called off.
5. Ask all questions and make all requests directly to the Mod via PM. Questions deemed as "universal" (defined as questions for which the answers should be available to all players) will be requested to be re-posted in the Game Thread and answered there.
6. Players may request prods on other players if they have not posted in 24 hours. Players are subject to replacement or modkill after one prod.
7. All rule violations will be dealt with according to their severity, as determined by the mod.
8. Each player will receive their own QT, regardless of role. Don't quote from it.
9. If the game goes on for 3 days and 3 nights without a lynch or nightkill, town wins.

Deadlines:
1. Days will last seven IRL days.
2. Nights will last between 36 and 48 hours.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Sign Ups Open!
Post by: Swowl on August 18, 2020, 12:26:21 am

Set Up Information

GENERAL INFORMATION:
1.   This is a closed set up RMM made for 18 players.
2.   Every player in the game will be given a PR.
3.   Every Power Role Names will capture the use of the role to best extent possible.
4.   Players will flip with their alignment and Power Role Names

TIMELINE MECHANICS
1.   All players in this game will be evenly divided into 2 ďTimelinesĒ Ė Forward and Reverse.
2.   Every Day and Night Phase will belong to a specific Timeline Ė Either Forward or Reverse.
    a.   During the Day, all players alive may post as usual in the game thread. However, only the players on the Active Timeline will be allowed to vote or use PRs.
    b.   Additionally, players will only be allowed to vote for players on the Active Timeline.
    c.   During the Night, only players on the Active Timeline will be allowed to take actions.
    d.   Night actions can target any player, regardless of which Timeline they belong to.
3.   Active Timelines will begin at the Start of Day and end at the conclusion of the following Night.

TIMELINE QT MECHANICS:
1.   All players in this game will be evenly divided into 2 ďTimelinesĒ Ė Forward and Reverse.
2.   All players will have a private QT with a randomly determined player. of the opposite timeline.
    a.   During Night Phases, including Night 0, this QT will remain open to both the players.
    b.   During Day Phases, this QT will remain open to both players.
3.   When either player from the same QT dies, it will be closed for the remainder of the game.

ACTION RESOLUTION:
1.   Standard action resolution will be followed in almost all potential instances.
2.   If your role has a unique potential to fall outside standard resolution, you will be informed.

FLAVOR:
1.   The flavor of this game will be based on the film ďMementoĒ
2.   Knowledge of the film is not needed to play, however reading the synopsis on this Wiki page may further your enjoyment of the game: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memento_(film)

TOWN WIN CONDITION:
1.   This is the Town Win Condition:
    a.    You win when all threats to Town have been eliminated.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Sign Ups Open!
Post by: mail-mi on August 18, 2020, 01:36:45 am
I hope you have better luck getting an 18 person game filled than I did  :P

/in
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Sign Ups Open!
Post by: MiX on August 18, 2020, 08:51:39 am
Oh look, it's Hunger Games again!

/in
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Sign Ups Open!
Post by: EFHW on August 18, 2020, 08:56:29 am
/in
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Sign Ups Open!
Post by: WestCoastDidds on August 18, 2020, 09:24:07 am
Yep, yep /in
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Sign Ups Open!
Post by: faust on August 18, 2020, 09:42:07 am
/tag

I have worries that having half the players be unable to do anything for half the game might negatively impact overall activity.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Sign Ups Open!
Post by: MiX on August 18, 2020, 09:51:22 am
Is it known who's in each timeline from the start? That seems like a trivial thing to test, and seems extremely important to how the day phase works.

Do timelines swap around each end of night, or is it unknown when they do?
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Sign Ups Open!
Post by: scolapasta on August 18, 2020, 10:18:16 am
I don't remember sign/ing up, but I have this weird tattoo that says I did.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Sign Ups Open!
Post by: WestCoastDidds on August 18, 2020, 11:20:21 am
I don't remember sign/ing up, but I have this weird tattoo that says I did.

yaaasssss
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Sign Ups Open!
Post by: Swowl on August 18, 2020, 01:00:33 pm
/tag

I have worries that having half the players be unable to do anything for half the game might negatively impact overall activity.

assume it has been thought through :)

but I will tag you if you like.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Sign Ups Open!
Post by: Dylan32 on August 18, 2020, 01:00:44 pm
"    a.   During the Day, all players alive may post as usual in the game thread. However, only the players on the Active Timeline will be allowed to vote or use PRs.
    b.   Additionally, players will only be allowed to vote for players on the Active Timeline."

So half on the players will never be able to vote for the other half? Because if X can only vote while on the Active Timeline and can only vote for the others on said timeline, then X can never vote for someone on the other timeline.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Sign Ups Open!
Post by: Swowl on August 18, 2020, 01:01:50 pm
Is it known who's in each timeline from the start? That seems like a trivial thing to test, and seems extremely important to how the day phase works.

Do timelines swap around each end of night, or is it unknown when they do?

Timeline announcement is trivial. But It will be announced start of Day 1.

Set up states "timelines run Start of day to end of that Night phase"
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Sign Ups Open!
Post by: Swowl on August 18, 2020, 01:03:15 pm
"    a.   During the Day, all players alive may post as usual in the game thread. However, only the players on the Active Timeline will be allowed to vote or use PRs.
    b.   Additionally, players will only be allowed to vote for players on the Active Timeline."

So half on the players will never be able to vote for the other half? Because if X can only vote while on the Active Timeline and can only vote for the others on said timeline, then X can never vote for someone on the other timeline.

assume it has been thought through.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Sign Ups Open!
Post by: Swowl on August 18, 2020, 01:09:03 pm
Let's just call this a PSA - It is a closed set up, so I cannot promise that I can answer everything. However, I can promise that any concerns regarding balance, or just standard mechanics, have been thought through.

Absolutely not promising it all won't go to hell :P but I am confident that the game will be fun, and I know LL and I have gone through and changed stuff ten times over to make sure the set up works and is fair.

So pretty much - if you have questions, please ask, I will answer what I can. I will probably just be ignoring most of the comments regarding the set up however until the game is concluded. Everything you need to know is in the OP.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Sign Ups Open!
Post by: MiX on August 18, 2020, 01:10:14 pm
Can day actions target players from both timelines?
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Sign Ups Open!
Post by: Swowl on August 18, 2020, 01:47:35 pm
Can day actions target players from both timelines?

Yes. Active only is for the ďuserĒ, the target can be anyone. The only targeting restriction is regarding voting.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Sign Ups Open!
Post by: cayvie on August 21, 2020, 01:13:22 am
I hope you have better luck getting an 18 person game filled than I did  :P

/in

im doin good on bets lately so there might be some reinforcements comin :)
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Sign Ups Open!
Post by: WestCoastDidds on August 21, 2020, 10:30:11 am
I hope you have better luck getting an 18 person game filled than I did  :P

/in

im doin good on bets lately so there might be some reinforcements comin :)
❤️❤️❤️
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Sign Ups Open!
Post by: faust on August 23, 2020, 11:10:52 am
Alrighty, /in.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Sign Ups Open!
Post by: Xxraptorslayer96 on August 24, 2020, 11:17:35 pm
/tag
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Sign Ups Open!
Post by: scolapasta on August 26, 2020, 03:23:31 pm
I don't remember sign/ing up, but I have this weird tattoo that says I did.

I th/ink you may have missed this...
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Sign Ups Open!
Post by: chairs on August 26, 2020, 03:43:58 pm
What did I get myself /into?
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Sign Ups Open!
Post by: Dylan32 on August 26, 2020, 06:14:24 pm
Let's see if I can w/in this one.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Sign Ups Open!
Post by: jotheonah on August 27, 2020, 09:06:45 am
I want to sign up, but WW has me sort of shaken vis a vis super-complicated setups. Someone sell me on it.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Sign Ups Open!
Post by: WestCoastDidds on August 27, 2020, 09:20:43 am
I want to sign up, but WW has me sort of shaken vis a vis super-complicated setups. Someone sell me on it.

I canít sell you on the set up but I 100% know that games are better with you in them and I always look forward to playing with you. There are QT partners and you are on my short list of QT-partner faves so, you know, thereís that.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Sign Ups Open!
Post by: hypercube on August 27, 2020, 09:28:25 am
I'm pretty busy until mid-September but this seems kind of unlikely to start until then anyways, so /in.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Sign Ups Open!
Post by: Swowl on August 27, 2020, 02:02:01 pm
I want to sign up, but WW has me sort of shaken vis a vis super-complicated setups. Someone sell me on it.

it will be fun....
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Halfway Full! Sign Up Now!
Post by: jotheonah on August 27, 2020, 02:43:52 pm
alright, I'm /in. It's been a while since I've seen the film...
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Halfway Full! Sign Up Now!
Post by: Galzria on September 12, 2020, 12:51:14 am
Alright. Doesn't look like we're launching anytime immediately, so...
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Halfway Full! Sign Up Now!
Post by: mail-mi on September 12, 2020, 09:55:57 am
Sorry, /out
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Halfway Full! Sign Up Now!
Post by: jotheonah on October 15, 2020, 01:52:54 pm
uh, bump?
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Halfway Full! Sign Up Now!
Post by: ashersky on October 28, 2020, 10:44:21 am
/in
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Halfway Full! Sign Up Now!
Post by: WestCoastDidds on October 28, 2020, 11:35:11 am
/in

Hooray!
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - 7 Spots Left!
Post by: Glooble on November 18, 2020, 11:47:28 am
/in

Still a little salty about the last game, but I guess I gotta wash that salt out of mouth somehow.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - 7 Spots Left!
Post by: ashersky on December 31, 2020, 01:51:58 am
Is this still happening?
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - 7 Spots Left!
Post by: chairs on December 31, 2020, 01:53:37 am
Is this still happening?

I'm reasonably certain it already happened... maybe? This whole thread is just us looking at flashbacks.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - 7 Spots Left!
Post by: Swowl on December 31, 2020, 03:01:37 am
first off - lol

but it has unfortunately not yet happened :/

I am working on re-constructing it for less players.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - 7 Spots Left!
Post by: pingpongsam on March 15, 2021, 11:27:34 am
/in
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - 7 Spots Left!
Post by: skip wooznum on April 06, 2021, 01:19:43 am
Are there even 18 characters in memento?
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - 7 Spots Left!
Post by: Swowl on April 06, 2021, 01:48:59 am
Working on downsizing to 13 or 14. Join the game
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - 7 Spots Left!
Post by: Awaclus on April 06, 2021, 04:02:57 am
Working on downsizing to 13 or 14. Join the game

/in
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - 7 Spots Left!
Post by: gkrieg13 on April 06, 2021, 11:58:59 am
/in
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - 7 Spots Left!
Post by: Swowl on April 06, 2021, 12:11:39 pm
Cool cool cool.
Itís been a bit of a while.
Can people re confirm they are still wanting to play while i get the finishing touches off?

Need to decide the best way to launch around BSG and the Dwarf games.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - 7 Spots Left!
Post by: MiX on April 06, 2021, 12:13:56 pm
/in (again)
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - 7 Spots Left!
Post by: WestCoastDidds on April 06, 2021, 01:10:30 pm
aga/in
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - 7 Spots Left!
Post by: chairs on April 06, 2021, 01:18:53 pm
/innnn
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - 7 Spots Left!
Post by: Dylan32 on April 06, 2021, 03:39:43 pm
/out for now. I have recently decided I am incapable of playing more than one game at a time.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - 7 Spots Left!
Post by: Swowl on April 06, 2021, 04:30:45 pm
need confirms from:

pasta
joth
hypercube
glooble
faust
ashersky
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - 7 Spots Left!
Post by: Swowl on April 06, 2021, 04:31:41 pm
also, unless there is a clamor for a 3rd game, I will probably wait until Joth's game has completed before starting this one.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - 7 Spots Left!
Post by: mathdude on April 06, 2021, 04:49:41 pm
also, unless there is a clamor for a 3rd game, I will probably wait until Joth's game has completed before starting this one.

If you are waiting, and if there is space, then
/in
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - 7 Spots Left!
Post by: scolapasta on April 06, 2021, 04:54:18 pm
Checked mirror, still have the tattoo saying I'm /in
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - 7 Spots Left!
Post by: ashersky on April 08, 2021, 12:37:48 am
Checked mirror, still have the tattoo saying I'm /in

You have a tattoo that says ni\?

Also, I'm still in.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - 7 Spots Left!
Post by: faust on April 08, 2021, 06:17:36 am
I'm still in!
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Please Re-Confirm!
Post by: Swowl on April 12, 2021, 08:26:04 pm
Glooble
EFOO
Hyper
Joth

Still need confirms.

If you are out it is cool but I need to know if I have 15 or not pleaseeeeee :)
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Please Re-Confirm!
Post by: EFHW on April 13, 2021, 12:17:10 am
After Battlestar Galactica?
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Please Re-Confirm!
Post by: jotheonah on April 13, 2021, 09:10:59 am
I'm in
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Please Re-Confirm!
Post by: Swowl on April 13, 2021, 01:47:17 pm
After Battlestar Galactica?

Yes? Or at least far enough into it when everyone is good to go.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Please Re-Confirm!
Post by: scolapasta on April 13, 2021, 01:55:57 pm
After Battlestar Galactica?

Yes? Or at least far enough into it when everyone is good to go.

Is the idea then to get this in overlapping BSG? (since BSG will have multiple seasons?) Actually, fause if you're seeing this, can you remine me/us what the expected timeline for future seasons is?
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Please Re-Confirm!
Post by: Swowl on April 20, 2021, 06:25:03 pm
Just saw on the Star Gate thread that faust is planning to leave 1-2 gap between BSG games.
The plan now is to launch this game towards the conclusion of BSG-Season1.
Let me know if there are any issues with that.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Please Re-Confirm!
Post by: ashersky on April 20, 2021, 10:04:16 pm
No problem from my end.  Can time Stargate near the end of this, if BSG Season 2 isn't starting up.  Otherwise, can wait for the next break.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Please Re-Confirm!
Post by: faust on April 21, 2021, 01:32:01 am
Ah yeah, sorry, should probably also have mentioned that here.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Please Re-Confirm!
Post by: Dylan32 on April 21, 2021, 03:03:12 pm
If the plan is to minimize overlap with BSG 1 and BSG 2 is waiting until after this (and/or another game), then I would be back /in.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Please Re-Confirm!
Post by: Swowl on April 21, 2021, 03:43:13 pm
faust - you good with that as a general timeline?
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Please Re-Confirm!
Post by: faust on April 22, 2021, 03:18:54 am
faust - you good with that as a general timeline?
Fine with me!

Generally, I'd only start the second season once the players involved give their go.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Please Re-Confirm!
Post by: EFHW on April 25, 2021, 11:06:27 pm
/in if overlap is m/inimized
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Please Re-Confirm!
Post by: Swowl on April 27, 2021, 03:16:37 am
Well fuck. I guess this is starting soon then.
Signs up locked after efoo.
Timeline update tomorrow, but PMs out in a few days max.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Please Re-Confirm!
Post by: Swowl on April 27, 2021, 04:21:52 pm
Okie dokie. With the conclusion of BSG Mafia - Season 1, this will now be starting shortly.

1. Hypercube is the only one to not confirm in some fashion thus far. I will be granting them 48 hours from now (PM sent) to get back to /in. Within that 48 hour time window (ending roughly 5pm on April 29th) I will be taking the first /in IFFFF Hypercube does not confirm... if they do, they get first ups.

2. If Hyper does not confirm and no one else /ins, the game will run as a 15 player game.

3. If Hyper or someone else does /in, the game will run as a 16 player game.

4. Because of the difference in player potential, and the fact it was originally written for 18 players (lol), I will need 2-3 days to edit after this 48 hour window.


TLDR - Let's just say PMs will be going out on Monday, May 3rd.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Please Re-Confirm!
Post by: Swowl on April 27, 2021, 04:25:25 pm
This is what I currently have. If I am missing someone, please speak up!

Sign Up List:
1. MiX - confirmed
2. EFHW - confirmed
3. WestCoastDidds - confirmed
4. scolapasta - confirmed
5. faust - confirmed
6. chairs - confirmed
7. hypercube
8. Joth - confirmed
9. Galzria - confirmed
10. Ashersky - confirmed
11. Glooble - confirmed
12. PPS - confirmed
13. Awaclus - confirmed
14. gkrieg - confirmed
15. Mathdude - confirmed
16. Dylan - confirmed
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Please Re-Confirm!
Post by: hypercube on April 27, 2021, 05:06:24 pm
/in
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Please Re-Confirm!
Post by: Swowl on April 27, 2021, 06:39:34 pm
Awesome!
That is 16 confirmed!
Hopefully will have PMs for confirms out by the weekend!

Thread Locked except for Tags.

PM me if you have a question.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Please Re-Confirm!
Post by: Swowl on April 29, 2021, 03:42:37 pm
PMs *should be* going out tomorrow. If not then Saturday. That will give at least 2+ days for people to confirm and be able to start the game Monday.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - All PMs on their way!!!! (ish)
Post by: Swowl on May 02, 2021, 01:34:02 am
Apologies - that took slightly longer to set up than anticipated. PMs are going out now. Game starts May 4th at 3:00pm Forum Time.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - All PMs on their way!!!! (ish)
Post by: Swowl on May 02, 2021, 03:52:00 pm
Moving game to Mafia Game Thread.

PLEASE NOTE - The OP has been updated. When re-creating the game a balance change had to be made - The Timeline QTs were completely randomized instead of paired at random with a player of the opposite timeline.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Game Starts Tuesday!
Post by: Swowl on May 04, 2021, 03:25:48 pm
Where are we...? What is going on?
The Town looks around confused at one and other trying to... remember.
No one is certain of who anyone else is. Or who they are themselves.
Someone screams! They hold out there arm and there is a tattoo. It reads: "Remember, there are killers among us".


Welcome to Memento Mafia. Sorry for the wait on the launch.




Vote Count 1.0:

Not Voting (16): MiX, EFHW, WCD, scolapasta, faust, chairs, hypercube, Joth, Galzria, Ashersky, Glooble, PPS, Awaclus, gkrieg, Mathdude, Dylan

With 8 alive on the ACTIVE TIMELINE, it takes 5 to Exile.
Day 1 starts now and ends Tuesday, May 11th at 3:25pm Forum Time.

Today the active timeline is the REVERSE TIMELINE. We will remain in the REVERSE TIMELINE until the start of Day 2.
Only players from the currently active timeline may vote, or be voted for.

THREAD UNLOCKED!
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Game Starts Tuesday!
Post by: pingpongsam on May 04, 2021, 03:35:23 pm
So like, is it a thing to not reveal which timeline you are on or what?

Also, I've been playing mafia for a couple years elsewhere and I am completely different now... really... you can trust that.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: faust on May 04, 2021, 03:36:58 pm
I'm here! It's curious that we don't get to know who is in which timeline... that doesn't seem like something that can remain secret for very long.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: faust on May 04, 2021, 03:39:15 pm
Of course, we could always no exile today. That seems like it has some unique advantages in this game.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: scolapasta on May 04, 2021, 03:47:49 pm
Hi all!

I'm assuming if we are not active timeline and we vote it won't show up in a vote count. Or if we are voted on, it also won't show up? Or would it?

Depending on how that is handled, it would just be easier if we all just revealed. But maybe the mod will answer:

If I am not in the active timeline and I vote, will that show up as a vote in the vote count?
If I am not in the active timeline and I get voted, will that show up as a vote in the vote count?
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: pingpongsam on May 04, 2021, 03:51:26 pm
Hi all!

I'm assuming if we are not active timeline and we vote it won't show up in a vote count. Or if we are voted on, it also won't show up? Or would it?

Depending on how that is handled, it would just be easier if we all just revealed. But maybe the mod will answer:

If I am not in the active timeline and I vote, will that show up as a vote in the vote count?
If I am not in the active timeline and I get voted, will that show up as a vote in the vote count?


silliness

Vote: scolapasta

is how you check these things
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Game Starts Tuesday!
Post by: MiX on May 04, 2021, 03:52:26 pm
Hello everyone! I'm going to be busy for around 2 weeks from now, so don't expect much from me the first two days.

So like, is it a thing to not reveal which timeline you are on or what?

Also, I've been playing mafia for a couple years elsewhere and I am completely different now... really... you can trust that.

I think we should, otherwise we basically give up D1. I'll start: I'm Reverse Timeline.

I'll trust you're not the same pps when I see it. I'm looking forward to it.


I was going to vote, when I realized it would just out that person's timeline even if they don't want to. I can't even RVS :(

PPE: Maybe he can't?
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Game Starts Tuesday!
Post by: jotheonah on May 04, 2021, 03:57:26 pm
So like, is it a thing to not reveal which timeline you are on or what?

Also, I've been playing mafia for a couple years elsewhere and I am completely different now... really... you can trust that.

He didn't say PINL so, I don't think we can trust it.

Also what is metas anyway.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: jotheonah on May 04, 2021, 03:58:20 pm
I have to say, some people might find it frustrating, but to me the idea that for half the game I don't have to vote is really appealing. Takes the pressure off.

I'm sure this attitude will change as the game progresses.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: Dylan32 on May 04, 2021, 04:36:43 pm
I have to say, some people might find it frustrating, but to me the idea that for half the game I don't have to vote is really appealing. Takes the pressure off.

I'm sure this attitude will change as the game progresses.

As someone on the forward timeline, I feel the same way, but specifically regarding D1.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: Glooble on May 04, 2021, 07:07:55 pm
Well, I agree with MiX - holding back helps scum way more than town.

I'm in the Reverse timeline.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Game Starts Tuesday!
Post by: mathdude on May 04, 2021, 08:33:44 pm
So like, is it a thing to not reveal which timeline you are on or what?

Also, I've been playing mafia for a couple years elsewhere and I am completely different now... really... you can trust that.

The way I read mod text is that you are not allowed to vote or be voted for if not on the Active Timeline. It's not that your votes or votes on you don't count.

So then I wonder... why is it not already public knowledge who is on which timeline?
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Game Starts Tuesday!
Post by: scolapasta on May 04, 2021, 08:48:25 pm
So like, is it a thing to not reveal which timeline you are on or what?

Also, I've been playing mafia for a couple years elsewhere and I am completely different now... really... you can trust that.

The way I read mod text is that you are not allowed to vote or be voted for if not on the Active Timeline. It's not that your votes or votes on you don't count.

So then I wonder... why is it not already public knowledge who is on which timeline?

This is also how I read it but thought it was worth asking the mod. And my guess is it will make sense to reveal.

The only reason it might've been useful to keep secret is when Timelines QTs were going to be one frward and one backward, but since they're randomized anyway...

I'm Forward Timeline. So see everyone D2!

(just kidding, of course, but it does work that I don't get to vote D1, since I'm not very fond of D1s - and also this way MiX can't vote for me!)
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: Galzria on May 04, 2021, 09:23:51 pm
Hey all -

Busy day. Getting ready for one of my locations to open tomorrow.

Iím on the Forward Timeline.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: EFHW on May 04, 2021, 09:58:46 pm
Hi. I'm forward timeline. We probably weren't told because it will quickly be obvious. While it says not allowed to vote, I have to think the meaning was votes don't count rather than thinking there will be repercussions for voting.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: WestCoastDidds on May 04, 2021, 10:00:19 pm
Hi hi hi hi!

Forward timeline for me!

Itís great to see many old friends. 16 is a huge game, so reducing to 8 is a relief.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Game Starts Tuesday!
Post by: WestCoastDidds on May 04, 2021, 10:04:03 pm

The way I read mod text is that you are not allowed to vote or be voted for if not on the Active Timeline. It's not that your votes or votes on you don't count.

So then I wonder... why is it not already public knowledge who is on which timeline?

What is the difference between those math?
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: Swowl on May 05, 2021, 12:46:36 am

If I am not in the active timeline and I vote, will that show up as a vote in the vote count?
If I am not in the active timeline and I get voted, will that show up as a vote in the vote count?


No and No.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: faust on May 05, 2021, 01:06:00 am
Well, I agree with MiX - holding back helps scum way more than town.
How so?
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: Dylan32 on May 05, 2021, 01:08:03 am
Well, I agree with MiX - holding back helps scum way more than town.
How so?

I was starting to ask this, but the ppe revealed how concisely my message should have been...
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: Dylan32 on May 05, 2021, 01:08:19 am
*concise... ughh
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Game Starts Tuesday!
Post by: faust on May 05, 2021, 01:15:46 am
I'm Forward Timeline. So see everyone D2!
There is actually no guarantee that D2 will be foward timeline. Indeed, I would not be surprised to learn that scum gets to toggle the timeline each Night.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: faust on May 05, 2021, 02:27:41 am
One clear downside of timeline claiming is that it allows scum to target the PRs that can be active that Night with roleblocking, killing etc.

So here is my plan: noone votes. Instead, we use italics to Vote: xy. I agree to do vote count for italic votes. If a majority of living players agrees on an exile, then the people in the active timeline try to exile them. Otherwise, there will be no exile.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: faust on May 05, 2021, 02:48:33 am
I think we have 5 forward claims already, so if everyone agrees we will be able to exile in forward without revealing more info. Exiling in reverse would of course require more reveals, but it's not clear to me that we want to exile today anyways.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: faust on May 05, 2021, 02:49:44 am
Vote: MiX
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: faust on May 05, 2021, 02:51:40 am
faust's non-timeline-binary vote count 1.0

MiX (1): faust

Not Voting (15): MiX, EFHW, WCD, scolapasta, chairs, hypercube, Joth, Galzria, Ashersky, Glooble, PPS, Awaclus, gkrieg, Mathdude, Dylan
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Game Starts Tuesday!
Post by: MiX on May 05, 2021, 03:18:23 am
I'm Forward Timeline. So see everyone D2!
There is actually no guarantee that D2 will be foward timeline. Indeed, I would not be surprised to learn that scum gets to toggle the timeline each Night.

Yes there is...

3.   Active Timelines will begin at the Start of Day and end at the conclusion of the following Night.

I guess there isn't more than this, but...

One clear downside of timeline claiming is that it allows scum to target the PRs that can be active that Night with roleblocking, killing etc.

So here is my plan: noone votes. Instead, we use italics to Vote: xy. I agree to do vote count for italic votes. If a majority of living players agrees on an exile, then the people in the active timeline try to exile them. Otherwise, there will be no exile.

This doesn't work: if town decides to exile someone that isn't of the active timeline, do you expect the following day to consist of that person being exiled and nothing else? What a waste, too.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: EFHW on May 05, 2021, 03:23:38 am
I think we have 5 forward claims already, so if everyone agrees we will be able to exile in forward without revealing more info. Exiling in reverse would of course require more reveals, but it's not clear to me that we want to exile today anyways.
We can't vote for the forwards today. Can't exile them.

What is the benefit of no exile?
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Game Starts Tuesday!
Post by: faust on May 05, 2021, 03:24:56 am
Yes there is...

3.   Active Timelines will begin at the Start of Day and end at the conclusion of the following Night.

I guess there isn't more than this, but...
I have received a mod reply that timelines are not guaranteed to alternate.

This doesn't work: if town decides to exile someone that isn't of the active timeline, do you expect the following day to consist of that person being exiled and nothing else? What a waste, too.
This is pretty ridiculous coming from someone who has just finished a game where they were prevented from being exiled and continued to not be exiled the following Day.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: faust on May 05, 2021, 03:27:27 am
I think we have 5 forward claims already, so if everyone agrees we will be able to exile in forward without revealing more info. Exiling in reverse would of course require more reveals, but it's not clear to me that we want to exile today anyways.
We can't vote for the forwards today. Can't exile them.
I know. this was meant for tomorrow, or whenever forward gets active.

What is the benefit of no exile?
More time for PRs to operate, less info revealed to scum. Also, with only 8 people able to vote, town would have to vote almost unanimously in order to successfully exile scum, and that doesn't seem likely.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Game Starts Tuesday!
Post by: MiX on May 05, 2021, 04:32:53 am
This doesn't work: if town decides to exile someone that isn't of the active timeline, do you expect the following day to consist of that person being exiled and nothing else? What a waste, too.
This is pretty ridiculous coming from someone who has just finished a game where they were prevented from being exiled and continued to not be exiled the following Day.

The hell does that have to do with what I said! How is this even comparable? What the fuck??

Also I have no idea why that even happened, but you do, so we can't actually talk about this.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: MiX on May 05, 2021, 04:33:38 am
Vote: faust

What is that logic.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Game Starts Tuesday!
Post by: faust on May 05, 2021, 05:28:38 am
This doesn't work: if town decides to exile someone that isn't of the active timeline, do you expect the following day to consist of that person being exiled and nothing else? What a waste, too.
This is pretty ridiculous coming from someone who has just finished a game where they were prevented from being exiled and continued to not be exiled the following Day.

The hell does that have to do with what I said! How is this even comparable? What the fuck??

Also I have no idea why that even happened, but you do, so we can't actually talk about this.
Maybe it wasn't best to mention this, so I'll rephrase to say: No, I do not expect that.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Game Starts Tuesday!
Post by: MiX on May 05, 2021, 05:35:29 am
Maybe it wasn't best to mention this, so I'll rephrase to say: No, I do not expect that.

Okay then your plan is anti-town.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Game Starts Tuesday!
Post by: faust on May 05, 2021, 05:57:36 am
Maybe it wasn't best to mention this, so I'll rephrase to say: No, I do not expect that.

Okay then your plan is anti-town.
At least I have a plan and am not just blurting out random bits of information to the enemy.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: faust on May 05, 2021, 05:58:37 am
but if you wish to expand on why you think it is anti-town, I would be interested to hear reasons.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Game Starts Tuesday!
Post by: MiX on May 05, 2021, 06:01:19 am
Maybe it wasn't best to mention this, so I'll rephrase to say: No, I do not expect that.

Okay then your plan is anti-town.
At least I have a plan and am not just blurting out random bits of information to the enemy.

My plan is to play D1. Your plan is to not play D1. My plan is to attempt to exile scum (and also exile scum), your plan is not to exile at all.

but if you wish to expand on why you think it is anti-town, I would be interested to hear reasons.

Your plan throws away 2 days of voting if we decide on the second day that we want to exile someone of the non-active timeline (and 1 day regardless). By that time, why would it be easier to kill scum? We would just be thinning our numbers.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Game Starts Tuesday!
Post by: faust on May 05, 2021, 06:06:46 am
My plan is to play D1. Your plan is to not play D1. My plan is to attempt to exile scum (and also exile scum), your plan is not to exile at all.
This is not my plan. Indeed, my plan allows everyone to play D1 rather than half the players. My plan has a good chance of finding an exile. And no exile D1 in an RMM is not terrible. D1 has a high chance of misexiles, and misexiles are way worse here than normally. If scum ever ends up controlling just one timeline, we have most likely lost because we can never exile scum from that timeline.

Your plan throws away 2 days of voting if we decide on the second day that we want to exile someone of the non-active timeline (and 1 day regardless). By that time, why would it be easier to kill scum? We would just be thinning our numbers.
It would be easier because this is an RMM with supercharged investigative PRs.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: MiX on May 05, 2021, 06:23:00 am
I think we have 5 forward claims already, so if everyone agrees we will be able to exile in forward without revealing more info. Exiling in reverse would of course require more reveals, but it's not clear to me that we want to exile today anyways.
We can't vote for the forwards today. Can't exile them.
I know. this was meant for tomorrow, or whenever forward gets active.

Ooooooh I think I misread this. So I thought you were throwing 1 more day.

Okay then it should be...okay. At worst we lose 1 day.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: Glooble on May 05, 2021, 06:28:11 am
I did not realize timeline were not guaranteed to alternate. That does change things to some extent.  Also I should have reread the timeline rules before I claimed because I was confused- I thought night actions against characters in the other timeline would fail, which is not the case.

The thing is, for the game to proceed, eventually weíre going to have to figure out who can vote for who. The exile is how town wins, and taking day 1 off really feels like kneecapping ourselves. Itís not just about exile or no exile- Faustís italicized votes wonít really carry the weight of real votes when we analyze them later. Scum knows what timeline  their partners are on, so this gives them cover to go after each other without risking an actual exile. If we go with Faustís plan, I donít think itís going to leave us with a lot of actionable info going into D2, even if we get a flip.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: Glooble on May 05, 2021, 06:48:19 am
Put another way, I think when we try to take people to task for their votes later, a vote is going to be a lot easier to weasel out of than a vote. Also, it removes the pressure vote as a tool in our arsenal- if Iím forward timeline today and I get six votes on me, itís not going to pressure me into acting any differently, especially since I know that half those people voting for me arenít real votes anyway.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: faust on May 05, 2021, 07:03:36 am
It's all a matter of perception really. We can make italic votes every bit as impactful as normal votes if it is understood that a player who got a majority of them is going to be real-voted for. This will not work if people disagree with my plan, but preemptively saying that it can't work is just saying "I disagree with this because I feel like people will disagree with it".
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: faust on May 05, 2021, 07:07:38 am
Glooble, I feel like your counterarguments are designed for a fictional setting where it's either my plan or a standard D1. This is not the case. With no plan, half the players in this game are disenfranchised, and we also are unable to put any kind of vote on them, pressure or otherwise.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: Glooble on May 05, 2021, 07:31:51 am
Glooble, I feel like your counterarguments are designed for a fictional setting where it's either my plan or a standard D1. This is not the case. With no plan, half the players in this game are disenfranchised, and we also are unable to put any kind of vote on them, pressure or otherwise.

But If everyone knows who they can or canít vote for, then you can try and lobby players who have a vote today but no strong reads to vote on your behalf. Players are ďDisenfranchisedĒ maybe in the purely literal sense of the word, but hardly powerless.

With a full claim, it essentially becomes two separate games of mafia, but scum probably only needs to win one of them to win. If I know everyone in the reverse timeline, I can play this game as if they are the only other players, and everyone else is vocal spectators aligned with one side or another.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: Glooble on May 05, 2021, 07:33:07 am
Two big assumptions here, of course, that have not been confirmed by the mod. 1.) there is a t least one scum in each timeline and 2.) it is not possible for player to jump from one timeline to another.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: EFHW on May 05, 2021, 07:53:47 am
I think we have 5 forward claims already, so if everyone agrees we will be able to exile in forward without revealing more info. Exiling in reverse would of course require more reveals, but it's not clear to me that we want to exile today anyways.
We can't vote for the forwards today. Can't exile them.
I know. this was meant for tomorrow, or whenever forward gets active.

What is the benefit of no exile?
More time for PRs to operate, less info revealed to scum. Also, with only 8 people able to vote, town would have to vote almost unanimously in order to successfully exile scum, and that doesn't seem likely.
It only takes 5 to exile.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: EFHW on May 05, 2021, 07:55:56 am
I'm not necessarily opposed to no exile, but bringing it up this early seems like surgically removing any scumhunting from the day.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: EFHW on May 05, 2021, 08:03:36 am
I don't think we can expect italicized votes to turn into real ones later. There will be too much new information in the meantime.  That makes them more like FOSs, which are pressuring to a certain degree and allows some scumhunting to happen.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: MiX on May 05, 2021, 08:05:54 am
I don't think we can expect italicized votes to turn into real ones later. There will be too much new information in the meantime.  That makes them more like FOSs, which are pressuring to a certain degree and allows some scumhunting to happen.

I think it's reasonable to literally only vote once the italic votes hammer someone. This, of course, would mean we need to get a deadline that then lets the reverse timeline people to hammer whoever we decided should die (and probably to exile the second option if the exile ends up being forward timeline).
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: EFHW on May 05, 2021, 08:09:56 am
Glooble's two game observation suggests to me that there is an even number of scum, most likely 4, or two teams of two. Is that balanced for a 16 player game? Maybe there's a 3rd party, too.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: pingpongsam on May 05, 2021, 08:10:18 am
Two big assumptions here, of course, that have not been confirmed by the mod. 1.) there is a t least one scum in each timeline and 2.) it is not possible for player to jump from one timeline to another.

The first assumption seems pretty reasonable. The second seems far less likely to me.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: EFHW on May 05, 2021, 08:18:59 am
I don't think we can expect italicized votes to turn into real ones later. There will be too much new information in the meantime.  That makes them more like FOSs, which are pressuring to a certain degree and allows some scumhunting to happen.

I think it's reasonable to literally only vote once the italic votes hammer someone. This, of course, would mean we need to get a deadline that then lets the reverse timeline people to hammer whoever we decided should die (and probably to exile the second option if the exile ends up being forward timeline).

Ok, I missed that detail. But it could leave us scrambling at the end of the day. And the forward people being voted know they aren't in any real danger. It seems very possible that both top two exile choices would be forward.

The plan does try to make the most of our situation and makes forward votes a little bit more relevant. We likely can't do it after today since Day 1 will have revealed a lot of timelines. So I'm ok with the voting part. But saying we'll no exile anyway takes all the energy out of the plan.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Game Starts Tuesday!
Post by: mathdude on May 05, 2021, 08:32:07 am

The way I read mod text is that you are not allowed to vote or be voted for if not on the Active Timeline. It's not that your votes or votes on you don't count.

So then I wonder... why is it not already public knowledge who is on which timeline?

What is the difference between those math?

Having just finished a BM game, my mind says anything is possible. I initially read "may not vote" to mean that if someone not on active timeline does vote, there could be mod-sanctions applied. But that seems much less fair if someone who is allowed to vote accidentally votes for someone they are not allowed to vote for, with who is on which timeline not being public knowledge.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Game Starts Tuesday!
Post by: mathdude on May 05, 2021, 08:35:16 am
I'm Forward Timeline. So see everyone D2!
There is actually no guarantee that D2 will be foward timeline. Indeed, I would not be surprised to learn that scum gets to toggle the timeline each Night.

Why scum? Maybe a town PR? Maybe mod-controlled based on certain triggers? Maybe random?
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: mathdude on May 05, 2021, 08:37:58 am
One clear downside of timeline claiming is that it allows scum to target the PRs that can be active that Night with roleblocking, killing etc.

So here is my plan: noone votes. Instead, we use italics to Vote: xy. I agree to do vote count for italic votes. If a majority of living players agrees on an exile, then the people in the active timeline try to exile them. Otherwise, there will be no exile.

One clear upside of timeline cleaning is it allowed Town PRs who are only useful against active scum to know possible targets... RBers, trackers, etc.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: mathdude on May 05, 2021, 08:46:47 am
Two big assumptions here, of course, that have not been confirmed by the mod. 1.) there is a t least one scum in each timeline and 2.) it is not possible for player to jump from one timeline to another.

The first assumption seems pretty reasonable. The second seems far less likely to me.

Are your responses based on actual information, or just your guesses? The fact that Glooble mentions the second makes me think that is very much possible this game.

Glooble's two game observation suggests to me that there is an even number of scum, most likely 4, or two teams of two. Is that balanced for a 16 player game? Maybe there's a 3rd party, too.

2 games of 2 scum in 8 can be reasonably balanced if appropriate power roles are distributed. But the biggest problem is if scum gets full control of one half of the game they get much more power.

And when the game design was adjusted from 18 parts to 16, and our QTs no longer guaranteed to be one person from each of Forward and Reverse... this also makes me think there may be possibilities to switch between timelines.

Still, these are just guesses on my part, not based on any actual game facts/knowledge.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: pingpongsam on May 05, 2021, 08:55:52 am
Are your responses based on actual information, or just your guesses? The fact that Glooble mentions the second makes me think that is very much possible this game.

Just my own approximation of such a novel setup and also, as you say, that Glooble even brought it up.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: Glooble on May 05, 2021, 09:12:39 am
Are your responses based on actual information, or just your guesses? The fact that Glooble mentions the second makes me think that is very much possible this game.

Just my own approximation of such a novel setup and also, as you say, that Glooble even brought it up.

This... feels like role-fishing? I daresay the thought could have occurred to anyone, I don't think it implies anything one way or the other about what's in my PM.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: MiX on May 05, 2021, 09:31:38 am
Are your responses based on actual information, or just your guesses? The fact that Glooble mentions the second makes me think that is very much possible this game.

Just my own approximation of such a novel setup and also, as you say, that Glooble even brought it up.

This... feels like role-fishing? I daresay the thought could have occurred to anyone, I don't think it implies anything one way or the other about what's in my PM.

Hmm? Wouldn't math's question be more role fishing? You didn't even need to talk about the post you're quoting.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: mathdude on May 05, 2021, 10:20:00 am
Are your responses based on actual information, or just your guesses? The fact that Glooble mentions the second makes me think that is very much possible this game.

Just my own approximation of such a novel setup and also, as you say, that Glooble even brought it up.

This... feels like role-fishing? I daresay the thought could have occurred to anyone, I don't think it implies anything one way or the other about what's in my PM.

Hmm? Wouldn't math's question be more role fishing? You didn't even need to talk about the post you're quoting.

My question may have been slightly role-fishing. But this is a RMM game and setup had indicated everyone has a power role. So I don't think that's unusual. Each town player will decide if and when and how their role is most useful and the answers to this could change as the game progresses.

A normal investigative role is most useful remaining completely hidden until they get results worth sharing.  Some powers or roles or parts of a role or information gained when clarifying their role may be useful to share now or soon. And when revealing information, some people will need to reveal role to validate information and others can reveal the information as fact without their role, and others may reveal it by using questions or hypothetical situations to promote discussion.

I think the last item has been done already. But as per Glooble's quoted words too, it's also possible some was legitimately questions and thoughts anyone could have had.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: faust on May 05, 2021, 11:06:22 am
I think we have 5 forward claims already, so if everyone agrees we will be able to exile in forward without revealing more info. Exiling in reverse would of course require more reveals, but it's not clear to me that we want to exile today anyways.
We can't vote for the forwards today. Can't exile them.
I know. this was meant for tomorrow, or whenever forward gets active.

What is the benefit of no exile?
More time for PRs to operate, less info revealed to scum. Also, with only 8 people able to vote, town would have to vote almost unanimously in order to successfully exile scum, and that doesn't seem likely.
It only takes 5 to exile.
Yes this is what I am saying? With 8 people who can vote, probably 2 scum among them, the town (i.e. 6 people) has to vote almost unanimously to exile scum.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: faust on May 05, 2021, 11:07:55 am
With a full claim, it essentially becomes two separate games of mafia, but scum probably only needs to win one of them to win. If I know everyone in the reverse timeline, I can play this game as if they are the only other players, and everyone else is vocal spectators aligned with one side or another.
Exactly. don't you see how that massively favors scum?
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: EFHW on May 05, 2021, 11:10:13 am
With a full claim, it essentially becomes two separate games of mafia, but scum probably only needs to win one of them to win. If I know everyone in the reverse timeline, I can play this game as if they are the only other players, and everyone else is vocal spectators aligned with one side or another.
Exactly. don't you see how that massively favors scum?

That's why I think multiball is likely.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Game Starts Tuesday!
Post by: faust on May 05, 2021, 11:12:09 am
I'm Forward Timeline. So see everyone D2!
There is actually no guarantee that D2 will be foward timeline. Indeed, I would not be surprised to learn that scum gets to toggle the timeline each Night.

Why scum? Maybe a town PR? Maybe mod-controlled based on certain triggers? Maybe random?
yes, these are all options. I mention the scum option because I think it makes sense and it's something to be wary of.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: jotheonah on May 05, 2021, 11:12:51 am
I know this isn't a bastard game but, IIRC a big part of the movie is about not knowing YOUR OWN motivations (on account of the memory loss). So I wonder if there's like team switching, or people who are scum and don't know it, or anything like that? Maybe I'm overstretching.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: jotheonah on May 05, 2021, 11:13:12 am
FWIW I'm planning to watch Memento this weekend -- I've seen it but it's been years.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: EFHW on May 05, 2021, 11:13:19 am
I think we have 5 forward claims already, so if everyone agrees we will be able to exile in forward without revealing more info. Exiling in reverse would of course require more reveals, but it's not clear to me that we want to exile today anyways.
We can't vote for the forwards today. Can't exile them.
I know. this was meant for tomorrow, or whenever forward gets active.

What is the benefit of no exile?
More time for PRs to operate, less info revealed to scum. Also, with only 8 people able to vote, town would have to vote almost unanimously in order to successfully exile scum, and that doesn't seem likely.
It only takes 5 to exile.
Yes this is what I am saying? With 8 people who can vote, probably 2 scum among them, the town (i.e. 6 people) has to vote almost unanimously to exile scum.

This isn't different from any other day with 8 players. I guess we do sometimes no exile in those situations. The way you phrased it, I thought you were trying to say we were in an unusual situation there.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: pingpongsam on May 05, 2021, 11:27:46 am
Is evil psychiatrist a role around here?
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: MiX on May 05, 2021, 11:28:33 am
Is evil psychiatrist a role around here?

What's psychiatrist?

This question should answer your question.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: MiX on May 05, 2021, 11:29:34 am
You know, having to discuss if we can even get to RVS before getting to RVS will significantly slow down this day.

I say we should all get our italic votes out there, then decide if we should bold them or not.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: gkrieg13 on May 05, 2021, 12:17:56 pm
I think the italics plan by faust is a good one. Obviously overtly helpful faust is scum faust, so vote: faust.

I also don't know if not timeline claiming is a good thing. Not just for the targeting reasons that have been mentioned, but because we will have at least partially timeline claimed by the end of the day when the people from the current timeline vote for the person who has been hammered by italics votes. Not sure if it is good to let some people be unclaimed from a timeline while others get to not be timeline claimed.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: pingpongsam on May 05, 2021, 12:36:20 pm
Not sure if it is good to let some people be unclaimed from a timeline while others get to not be timeline claimed.

I think I know what you're trying to say but you didn't actually say that with those words, right?
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: EFHW on May 05, 2021, 12:48:44 pm
I think the italics plan by faust is a good one. Obviously overtly helpful faust is scum faust, so vote: faust.

I also don't know if not timeline claiming is a good thing. Not just for the targeting reasons that have been mentioned, but because we will have at least partially timeline claimed by the end of the day when the people from the current timeline vote for the person who has been hammered by italics votes. Not sure if it is good to let some people be unclaimed from a timeline while others get to not be timeline claimed.
The italics plan only works if timelines are unknown.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: faust on May 05, 2021, 01:23:10 pm
I think we have 5 forward claims already, so if everyone agrees we will be able to exile in forward without revealing more info. Exiling in reverse would of course require more reveals, but it's not clear to me that we want to exile today anyways.
We can't vote for the forwards today. Can't exile them.
I know. this was meant for tomorrow, or whenever forward gets active.

What is the benefit of no exile?
More time for PRs to operate, less info revealed to scum. Also, with only 8 people able to vote, town would have to vote almost unanimously in order to successfully exile scum, and that doesn't seem likely.
It only takes 5 to exile.
Yes this is what I am saying? With 8 people who can vote, probably 2 scum among them, the town (i.e. 6 people) has to vote almost unanimously to exile scum.

This isn't different from any other day with 8 players. I guess we do sometimes no exile in those situations. The way you phrased it, I thought you were trying to say we were in an unusual situation there.
Well usually once you reach that gamestate there is a bunch of information available to make a more informed choice.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: Dylan32 on May 05, 2021, 01:41:57 pm
I'm all for people who aren't in the active timeline indicating their reads and preferences using italics, but I'm honestly not sure what benefit trying to hide timelines serves town.

If the status quo continues and we try to hide that info using faust's plan, (A) we are going to keep wasting time on a mechanical discussion that won't really help us develop reads, and (B) there's roughly a 50/50 shot that our preferred exile is actually not able to be exiled, which will leave us either scrambling or no exiling, which is either trivially bad for town or imho bad for town based on the last RMM that no-exiled D1.  If we finish claiming that, we can move on to actually developing reads and finding scum, and we won't run the risk of building momentum towards an exile that surprisingly can't actually be exiled today.

Also personally, if only half the lineup can vote and the number required to vote is based on that fraction of the lobby, only the half of the lobby that can vote should actually be listed on the vote count, but that's just me.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: scolapasta on May 05, 2021, 01:46:18 pm
I think establishing timelines during D1 will also be useful, because I have to imagine there have to be some powers that allow you to switch your or others timeline. Maybe they didn't even exist at first, but that was part of the change that instigated the randomized QTs.

I think Dylan makes good points about the waste. Re: if you are active and post an italicized vote, you won't know for sure if it's valid or not. (for those of us not currently active, it's less of an issue, of course)

At the very least, we can prove the case for those who have already declared:

Vote: scolapasta
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: mathdude on May 05, 2021, 01:48:28 pm
Let me get this italics voting figured out.  We all (not just Active timeline) italic-vote someone.  Then once we reach majority, people on Active (currently Reverse) timeline all cast their votes (for who they wanted, or for the agreed-upon majority)?  What if I'm Active, majority is on MiX, but I want to vote faust?  What happens if I vote faust instead, and then MiX doesn't get exiled because of it?

And then if all Active players did vote MiX in bold, and we realize MiX wasn't Active timeline when vote count comes out so we need to change to next option, but there's disagreement about who the 2nd best choice was.  But then what if that person isn't Active timeline either?  Also, what if Inactive players still cast bold votes to make things look different than they should be (until a vote count comes out) - whether scum, 3rd party, or having an odd role or win condition.  What if we don't get that majority in time for at least 5 people on Active timeline to come vote properly (or for the 2nd or 3rd option if votes don't show up for our first choices)?

Seems like an awfully good scheme for scum to pull, as non-Active scum can help sway the votes, or to hope for No Exile today.  I'm not saying No Exile is a bad idea.  But I am saying that if we do want to do that, we should agree on the idea of "No Exile", not an idea that could draw out a few days of working through the game mechanics rather than actual game discussion and scum-hunting.

Why might No Exile be good for scum?  If I was making this game, I think I would have it 2-2 or 2-1 with some weird abilities of people on scum and town to affect or possibly switch to other sides occasionally.  So if there are 2 scum out of 8, then No Exile *likely* brings next Reverse day to 5-2, with 4 of those 5 town needing to agree on the right scum... that makes it pretty easy for false-claims by scum to draw votes.  I say *likely* because of possible Vig, RB, etc. roles.

So what do I think?
Vote: faust
Reason: I'm reverse timeline.  This will show whether faust is or not.  Let's get votes on everyone intermittently, and through vote counts, just make Timeline claims irrelevant, because we'll have the facts.  Then we know what (and who) we're dealing with. Town PRs (which everyone has one, according to setup post) will know for sure where they are more useful.  Would you rather have 5 or 6 Town PRs know who to target and 2 scum?  Or would you rather many Town be left in the dark, and scum (presumably all 3 or 4 together in night chat) be able to work out a lot more information collaboratively together at night to maximize their effectiveness while some of us shoot blanks?

PPE2 - Exactly Dylan and scola!
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: scolapasta on May 05, 2021, 02:01:58 pm
I wonder if there'a any poer that will allow cross timeline voting, either collectively or on or by an individual?
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: Swowl on May 05, 2021, 02:31:52 pm
Vote Count 1.1:

faust (1): mathdude
Not Voting (15): MiX, EFHW, WCD, scolapasta, faust, chairs, hypercube, Joth, Galzria, Ashersky, PPS, Glooble, Awaclus, gkrieg, Dylan

With 8 alive on the ACTIVE TIMELINE, it takes 5 to Exile.
Day 1 starts now and ends Tuesday, May 11th at 3:25pm Forum Time.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: mathdude on May 05, 2021, 02:48:44 pm
Well, faust and I are confirmed Reverse.
Scola is confirmed Forward.

Any Reverse who want to confirm themselves, vote for me or faust (or yourself).
Any Forward who want to confirm, vote for yourself.

Once Reverse are confirmed, we can start voting more players and then wait for the next Vote Count to find out about them.

Vote: hypercube
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: scolapasta on May 05, 2021, 02:58:22 pm
Well, faust and I are confirmed Reverse.
Scola is confirmed Forward.

Any Reverse who want to confirm themselves, vote for me or faust (or yourself).
Any Forward who want to confirm, vote for yourself.

Once Reverse are confirmed, we can start voting more players and then wait for the next Vote Count to find out about them.

Vote: hypercube

And, as you just did, you and faust can choose to confirm whomever you'd like. (my guess is faust won't as he wants the italics plan, but...)
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: faust on May 05, 2021, 03:06:27 pm
I am extremely frustrated and annoyed at mathdude's play.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: gkrieg13 on May 05, 2021, 03:10:17 pm
I think the italics plan by faust is a good one. Obviously overtly helpful faust is scum faust, so vote: faust.

I also don't know if not timeline claiming is a good thing. Not just for the targeting reasons that have been mentioned, but because we will have at least partially timeline claimed by the end of the day when the people from the current timeline vote for the person who has been hammered by italics votes. Not sure if it is good to let some people be unclaimed from a timeline while others get to not be timeline claimed.
The italics plan only works if timelines are unknown.

I'm saying that we are all going to have to vote at the end of the day, which will show who is with what timeline anyway.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: gkrieg13 on May 05, 2021, 03:11:38 pm
Not sure if it is good to let some people be unclaimed from a timeline while others get to not be timeline claimed.

I think I know what you're trying to say but you didn't actually say that with those words, right?

Yes, you are correct. I'm saying letting people pick whether to claim their timeline is a bad idea.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: gkrieg13 on May 05, 2021, 03:15:06 pm
I am extremely frustrated and annoyed at mathdude's play.

Agreed. There is really nothing wrong with having a discussion to the merits of claiming before he just does it for people.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: Awaclus on May 05, 2021, 04:06:42 pm
Faust's plan seems fine in the early game, but later on in the game, it gets increasingly risky because if someone/some people don't follow the plan, there won't necessarily be enough time to make them accountable which means there's less of an incentive for scum to follow it.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: EFHW on May 05, 2021, 04:14:10 pm
I think the italics plan by faust is a good one. Obviously overtly helpful faust is scum faust, so vote: faust.

I also don't know if not timeline claiming is a good thing. Not just for the targeting reasons that have been mentioned, but because we will have at least partially timeline claimed by the end of the day when the people from the current timeline vote for the person who has been hammered by italics votes. Not sure if it is good to let some people be unclaimed from a timeline while others get to not be timeline claimed.
The italics plan only works if timelines are unknown.

I'm saying that we are all going to have to vote at the end of the day, which will show who is with what timeline anyway.
Right, but before that the italic plan works better if we don't know. After today, we will know and that plan won't be helpful anymore.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: EFHW on May 05, 2021, 04:14:43 pm
I think we have 5 forward claims already, so if everyone agrees we will be able to exile in forward without revealing more info. Exiling in reverse would of course require more reveals, but it's not clear to me that we want to exile today anyways.
We can't vote for the forwards today. Can't exile them.
I know. this was meant for tomorrow, or whenever forward gets active.

What is the benefit of no exile?
More time for PRs to operate, less info revealed to scum. Also, with only 8 people able to vote, town would have to vote almost unanimously in order to successfully exile scum, and that doesn't seem likely.
It only takes 5 to exile.
Yes this is what I am saying? With 8 people who can vote, probably 2 scum among them, the town (i.e. 6 people) has to vote almost unanimously to exile scum.

This isn't different from any other day with 8 players. I guess we do sometimes no exile in those situations. The way you phrased it, I thought you were trying to say we were in an unusual situation there.
Well usually once you reach that gamestate there is a bunch of information available to make a more informed choice.
Sure, that's fair.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: mathdude on May 05, 2021, 05:02:13 pm
Faust's plan seems fine in the early game, but later on in the game, it gets increasingly risky because if someone/some people don't follow the plan, there won't necessarily be enough time to make them accountable which means there's less of an incentive for scum to follow it.

I actually agree with Awaclus!  It's the potential to be abused.  And the accountability and timing if it does get abused.  Some information deserves to stay hidden (as I explained earlier) at least for a time.  I don't see any good reason why keeping our Timeline secret is a good idea, from a Town perspective.  I can see why Scum might want to.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: jotheonah on May 05, 2021, 05:02:39 pm
I'm willing to give faust's plan a try. Glooble makes a good point about it only working if other people buy in, but faust makes a good point that the alternative isn't amazing.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: MiX on May 05, 2021, 05:11:13 pm
Faust's plan seems fine in the early game, but later on in the game, it gets increasingly risky because if someone/some people don't follow the plan, there won't necessarily be enough time to make them accountable which means there's less of an incentive for scum to follow it.

I actually agree with Awaclus!  It's the potential to be abused.  And the accountability and timing if it does get abused.  Some information deserves to stay hidden (as I explained earlier) at least for a time.  I don't see any good reason why keeping our Timeline secret is a good idea, from a Town perspective.  I can see why Scum might want to.

Awaclus is right, but I don't think we should do this beyond D1.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: mathdude on May 05, 2021, 05:46:56 pm
We're all so stuck on whether this plan is good or not, we're actually not getting anywhere useful. Good job faust. Your plan is working.

We could just move on quickly if everyone claims Timeline, votes for themselves (or if Reverse, you can vote me or faust), then let's get on with the actual game.

I think faust is scummy. And I know he can be voted for today.  Anyone else have scum reads?
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: Awaclus on May 05, 2021, 05:50:20 pm
We're all so stuck on whether this plan is good or not, we're actually not getting anywhere useful. Good job faust. Your plan is working.

We could just move on quickly if everyone claims Timeline, votes for themselves (or if Reverse, you can vote me or faust), then let's get on with the actual game.

I think faust is scummy. And I know he can be voted for today.  Anyone else have scum reads?

Figuring out how to get every last bit of advantage for town compared to doing random stuff is a great way to spend early D1 in a 16-player RMM.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: mathdude on May 05, 2021, 06:33:53 pm
Agreed. But I think I've been clear that it seems faust's plan gives more advantage to scum than to town.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: Awaclus on May 05, 2021, 07:00:33 pm
Agreed. But I think I've been clear that it seems faust's plan gives more advantage to scum than to town.

I don't think it does in the early game.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: hypercube on May 05, 2021, 07:48:31 pm
Hi everyone! Sorry, I had an unexpectedly busy day today - will catch up tomorrow.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: ashersky on May 05, 2021, 07:59:48 pm
Sorry all, this week was a long holiday, so was unavailable.  I've caught up.  Quick thoughts, more later:

1. I agree with mathdude on faust's plan.

It's trivially easy to reveal players' timelines via voting, so long as the mod provides vote counts at a reasonable rate.  scola can do it alone, or with one or two more active players who want to do so.  Using a separate voting system to keep track of preferences is fine, I guess, but we run into the very clear problems that mathdude laid out, specifically the preferred exile being inactive and therefore invalid.  Then what?  That's a wasted day.  Sure, we could be like, welp, let's just do that person when they are active.  But then all sorts of night actions can happen, new information can change opinions, etc.  And so that's bad.  Plus, what do we do today? 

2. I don't like the mechanic, but that's a personal opinion based solely on catching up right now.  Inactive players have little incentive to pay attention when they cannot affect the outcome.  They should pay attention to figure out the game, alignments, etc. but I think if we're all being honest, we can say that most of us are more likely to be involved when we can do things.  So I worry about overall participation.

3. Maybe I'm wrong though and there are cool things planned for the timeline things.  All I remember about the movie is memory loss and tattoos.

4. With 16 players, there has to be at least 4 non-town, but probably more.  I'd say at least 5, if I were designing.  But let's go with minimum.  Then split into timelines.  Now, if each mini-game is 2 v 6, what happens if mafia wins one?  Imagine they run the board in one timeline and we no exile every time in the other -- then we have 6 v 4 overall, but odd interactions.  I'm not sure what my point is here, but I think there is important stuff here.  Something with night actions maybe?

5. What about the QTs thing?  Do we talk about that?
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: Awaclus on May 05, 2021, 08:09:06 pm
Using a separate voting system to keep track of preferences is fine, I guess, but we run into the very clear problems that mathdude laid out, specifically the preferred exile being inactive and therefore invalid.  Then what?

Then we exile someone else.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: jotheonah on May 05, 2021, 08:20:04 pm
so we need a fake deadline. fairly early too.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: EFHW on May 05, 2021, 08:34:36 pm
Agreed. But I think I've been clear that it seems faust's plan gives more advantage to scum than to town.
I don't agree with this.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: EFHW on May 05, 2021, 08:41:30 pm
Re ash's #4. This is an interesting point. Maybe there's a third party who can target both timelines.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: pingpongsam on May 05, 2021, 09:49:51 pm
Ash2: Disagree. I may agree later. As it is I keep checking m PM to even see what timeline I am on. I am fully following regardless. Also, this mechanic is unique enough to draw me out of retirement.

Ash5: I donít think we talk about that today. I think it is an important piece of the puzzle. The original intent clearly was to have interaction between timelines. With random assignments that is sure to still exist to some degree. At some point I expect we have sufficient information to bring our QTs to bear and divulging who has who right now seems like a poor play for Town.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: WestCoastDidds on May 05, 2021, 11:07:01 pm
Iím definitely feeling the not-my-timeline lethargy, although it hasnít inhibited me from reading so maybe having some folks with birds eye views will help.

I donít quite understand what Faustís plan gets us. More people italic voting, and then a point where the people in the active timeline are forced to vote that way even if itís against their own judgement as a loyalty test. That feels like it would feel really icky to the people being forced to vote that way, although it does provide an incentive for the non-actives to participate. Iím not sure that is a net gain, but Iím sure there is much I donít understand.

I am also unsure what the shared qt is for right now. :/
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: scolapasta on May 05, 2021, 11:18:18 pm
Iím definitely feeling the not-my-timeline lethargy, although it hasnít inhibited me from reading so maybe having some folks with birds eye views will help.

I donít quite understand what Faustís plan gets us. More people italic voting, and then a point where the people in the active timeline are forced to vote that way even if itís against their own judgement as a loyalty test. That feels like it would feel really icky to the people being forced to vote that way, although it does provide an incentive for the non-actives to participate. Iím not sure that is a net gain, but Iím sure there is much I donít understand.

I am also unsure what the shared qt is for right now. :/

Ditto. As a forward, I'll follow along, sure, but I don't expect to be posting much.

I do have to say, I do feel a kindred spirit with my other forwards. But of course when I will be able to vote, it's just on them, so meh.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: ashersky on May 06, 2021, 12:51:59 am
Some further thoughts on "the plan":

--it requires all players of the active timeline to agree to exile whomever is selected in italics.  That seems...difficult at best.  Easy enough to say you will, then adamantly refuse when the italicized exile is a strong town read or mafia partner.

--it only works on Day 1.  After the exile, there's a fairly clear breakdown of players by timeline, and then it's all moot.  Someone could just track bolded votes.

--mafia can definitely control this to their advantage.  At worst, they get all the information they need for night actions.  Imagine some powers only working on members of a certain timeline, or active timeline.

--that said, I don't necessarily think that means the plan came from mafia, as it was probably easier to just get people to claim.

--the italicized votes idea is strictly to hide timelines until the end of the day.  If players don't care or don't want to hide their timeline, though, no reason to force it.  As we've seen.  This could just have easily been done with popsquizes and weights.  So that makes the plan seem like more of a plan than it actually is, which could be a credgrab.

Other thoughts:

--what if timelines are randomly assigned and all mafia are in one timeline.  That makes the other timeline even more useless.

--has everyone posted yet?
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: faust on May 06, 2021, 01:03:15 am
We're all so stuck on whether this plan is good or not, we're actually not getting anywhere useful. Good job faust. Your plan is working.
Fuck you too.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: Swowl on May 06, 2021, 01:56:52 am
We have all taken the civility pledge. Please abide by it.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Sign Ups Open!
Post by: ashersky on May 06, 2021, 02:49:52 am

TIMELINE MECHANICS
1.   All players in this game will be evenly divided into 2 ďTimelinesĒ Ė Forward and Reverse.
2.   Every Day and Night Phase will belong to a specific Timeline Ė Either Forward or Reverse.
    a.   During the Day, all players alive may post as usual in the game thread. However, only the players on the Active Timeline will be allowed to vote or use PRs.
    b.   Additionally, players will only be allowed to vote for players on the Active Timeline.
    c.   During the Night, only players on the Active Timeline will be allowed to take actions.
    d.   Night actions can target any player, regardless of which Timeline they belong to.
3.   Active Timelines will begin at the Start of Day and end at the conclusion of the following Night.

TIMELINE QT MECHANICS:
3.   When either player from the same QT dies, it will be closed for the remainder of the game.

A few tidbits of public information to discuss, because setup discussion is always...something.

I think #2 and #3 sort of define the same thing -- the "active period" of a timeline is always a day+night cycle.  An active timeline can't start at the beginning of the night, for example.  Seems that night actions could affect what timeline is active for the next cycle.

#2a CLEARLY hints at day powers.  I mean, use PRs is written there after "during the day."  There's a separate rule for actions at night at 2d.  So yeah, day powers.

For the QT #3, closed after a death always feels suspect to me.  Like, why not let the living player share thoughts or gloat?  Because the dead player might come back, perhaps...

So those are thoughts.  We can discuss them if you want.  Or not.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: pingpongsam on May 06, 2021, 06:45:36 am
I saw the day power potential as well. Complete WIFOM. Either possibility exists.

Closed QTs are for mod sanity is the simplest explanation but reincarnation is not out of the question.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: WestCoastDidds on May 06, 2021, 08:10:53 am
@Ahersky, I think we havenít seen chairs here.

And hupercube just did a drive by, be back. I believe everyone else has posted.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: MiX on May 06, 2021, 08:28:52 am
Okay let's get out of mechanical discussion.

Everyone who is reverse timeline, either vote in bold or vote in italic. You're playing this day, act like it. Everyone else, I'd suggest you vote in italic anyway, even if you don't intend to care about your vote, it would provide cover to people that don't want to claim.

For gkrieg: yeah, it can help scum to only have a few people say their timeline, but this only affects D1, so I think it helps town more overall.

Ash, I disagree with almost everything you're saying, Swowl putting down possibilities doesn't mean they have to be in the game IMO, this doesn't matter because we disagree on everything, but still.

We need to put down a deadline for the italic votes. I vote for a full IRL day before the actual deadline, so 3:25 pm 5/10. It's very likely no decision would have been made, and I don't think we should make it plurality, but if there is a majority of players that want to exile someone, I think we should do that.

Vote: faust, if there's any game where it can be correct to exile faust D1, it's this one, he's basically doing what scum!faust does, which is create chaos through order. Also Space isn't around to say if what he's doing is logical or not, so I need to keep a closer eye on him. Not to mention I can't pressure anyone else realistically, people that have claimed reverse timeline are basically stating they don't care about pressure, and the people that haven't claimed don't need to react to votes at all.

I'd love to see more votes from everyone, or we're not going to do much today.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: mathdude on May 06, 2021, 08:29:23 am
There have been a number of people agreeing with faust's strategy but very few italic votes and no recent italic vote count. There has also been mention of seeing an early deadline to get these votes in but no follow-up. And we're losing time.

There have also been some people who disagree, yet have not proven their Timeline by means of a vote. So that's not helpful either.

Even though I don't think it's helpful, FWIW, I wil...
FoS: faust
I mean...
vote: faust
Request vote count.


Also, request vote count.
Proud request: chairs.


PPE1 - thank you MiX!
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: mathdude on May 06, 2021, 08:31:59 am
EBWOP
That was supposed to say
prod request: chairs.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: hypercube on May 06, 2021, 08:32:07 am
OK I'm getting caught up here, first off to those I haven't played with before hello!, and I use he/him pronouns just fyi.

Since it seems trivial to determine what timelines people are on I'll go ahead and just say that I'm on the reverse timeline. For now I'm operating under the assumption that at some point the timelines will merge or at least people will get swapped between them since that seems like the most likely way to deal with the potential lategame weirdness.

In regards to the italic voting plan, I'm in favour of binding the choice of exile to the wishes of the overall majority. The voting should only be allowed for people in the active timeline though - it seems obvious to me that trying to pass off exiles to some unknown future day is a bad idea and it's strange to me that faust didn't make this explicit when bringing it up (possibly because he seems to want no-exile D1?).

It would be easier because this is an RMM with supercharged investigative PRs.

Also re. faust - what is this? Either it's creating WIFOM for no obvious reason or it's rolefishing bait. Feels scummy to me in any case.

Re ash's #4. This is an interesting point. Maybe there's a third party who can target both timelines.

Why would this change anything?

Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: MiX on May 06, 2021, 08:33:41 am
Italic vote count 1.1

MiX (1): faust
faust (2): MiX, math

Not Voting (13): EFHW, WCD, scolapasta, chairs, hypercube, Joth, Galzria, Ashersky, Glooble, PPS, Awaclus, gkrieg, Dylan

With 16 alive, it takes 9 to exile. The italic day 1 ends at 3:25 pm, May 10th
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: hypercube on May 06, 2021, 08:59:13 am
It's occurred to me that timelines merging matches the narrative structure of the movie, so that's a minor point suggesting that that will happen at some point.

EFHW, Dylan, ashersky all have said that the advantage of the italic voting plan is in concealing people's timelines - these are first of all not really possible to conceal as has been pointed out already, and also there seems to be obvious advantages to letting everyone vote. I'm not sure if not picking up on that is scummy or towny though.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: pingpongsam on May 06, 2021, 09:44:24 am
Okay let's get out of mechanical discussion.

Everyone who is reverse timeline, either vote in bold or vote in italic. You're playing this day, act like it. Everyone else, I'd suggest you vote in italic anyway, even if you don't intend to care about your vote, it would provide cover to people that don't want to claim.

For gkrieg: yeah, it can help scum to only have a few people say their timeline, but this only affects D1, so I think it helps town more overall.

Ash, I disagree with almost everything you're saying, Swowl putting down possibilities doesn't mean they have to be in the game IMO, this doesn't matter because we disagree on everything, but still.

We need to put down a deadline for the italic votes. I vote for a full IRL day before the actual deadline, so 3:25 pm 5/10. It's very likely no decision would have been made, and I don't think we should make it plurality, but if there is a majority of players that want to exile someone, I think we should do that.

Vote: faust, if there's any game where it can be correct to exile faust D1, it's this one, he's basically doing what scum!faust does, which is create chaos through order. Also Space isn't around to say if what he's doing is logical or not, so I need to keep a closer eye on him. Not to mention I can't pressure anyone else realistically, people that have claimed reverse timeline are basically stating they don't care about pressure, and the people that haven't claimed don't need to react to votes at all.

I'd love to see more votes from everyone, or we're not going to do much today.

Great energy, I am digging this.

Vote: MiX
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: Awaclus on May 06, 2021, 10:30:58 am
Vote: MiX
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: faust on May 06, 2021, 11:10:28 am
It would be easier because this is an RMM with supercharged investigative PRs.

Also re. faust - what is this? Either it's creating WIFOM for no obvious reason or it's rolefishing bait. Feels scummy to me in any case.
Every investigative role has a QT, i.e. they can share their results without having to claim.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: mathdude on May 06, 2021, 11:53:53 am
(Lots of thoughts)

Great energy, I am digging this.

Vote: MiX

FoS: pps and Awaclus
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: hypercube on May 06, 2021, 12:03:20 pm
It would be easier because this is an RMM with supercharged investigative PRs.

Also re. faust - what is this? Either it's creating WIFOM for no obvious reason or it's rolefishing bait. Feels scummy to me in any case.
Every investigative role has a QT, i.e. they can share their results without having to claim.

Ah, I see, thanks.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: Glooble on May 06, 2021, 12:06:05 pm
It would be easier because this is an RMM with supercharged investigative PRs.

Also re. faust - what is this? Either it's creating WIFOM for no obvious reason or it's rolefishing bait. Feels scummy to me in any case.
Every investigative role has a QT, i.e. they can share their results without having to claim.

Except they have no idea if their QT-mate is town, so they may not want to reveal to that person that they have an investigative role.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: mathdude on May 06, 2021, 12:16:31 pm
It would be easier because this is an RMM with supercharged investigative PRs.

Also re. faust - what is this? Either it's creating WIFOM for no obvious reason or it's rolefishing bait. Feels scummy to me in any case.
Every investigative role has a QT, i.e. they can share their results without having to claim.

Except they have no idea if their QT-mate is town, so they may not want to reveal to that person that they have an investigative role.

Exactly this. But I can see why faust wants investigative roles to share with their partners... or helps out him and his team if one of them can get info from town.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: EFHW on May 06, 2021, 12:38:16 pm
Re ash's #4. This is an interesting point. Maybe there's a third party who can target both timelines.

Why would this change anything?

If only mafia are left from one timeline, then they can't be exiled by players on the other timeline. If there is one large team, then town is at a big disadvantage. If there are two teams, then there could be two winners. Or, there could be someone able to vote or kill players from either timeline so that no one gets to be immortal due to the timeline restrictions.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: EFHW on May 06, 2021, 12:41:10 pm
It's occurred to me that timelines merging matches the narrative structure of the movie, so that's a minor point suggesting that that will happen at some point.

EFHW, Dylan, ashersky all have said that the advantage of the italic voting plan is in concealing people's timelines - these are first of all not really possible to conceal as has been pointed out already, and also there seems to be obvious advantages to letting everyone vote. I'm not sure if not picking up on that is scummy or towny though.
No, you have that backwards. The advantage of concealing timelines is that the italics plan could preserve some agency for the forward timeline folks. There are probably too many known timelines at this point for it to work, though.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: EFHW on May 06, 2021, 12:43:47 pm
vote: joth. Feels very much like his last scum game.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: Dylan32 on May 06, 2021, 01:01:11 pm
One thing no one has mentioned, and I think itís worth pointing it out to give swowl some design credit. In the movie, the two timelines eventually converge. By what mechanic that might be done, idk, but I feel like the scum win one timeline and auto win the game scenario is one that probably would have been thought of in the design process while deciding mechanics of dividing up the TLs.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: scolapasta on May 06, 2021, 01:07:43 pm
One thing no one has mentioned, and I think itís worth pointing it out to give swowl some design credit. In the movie, the two timelines eventually converge. By what mechanic that might be done, idk, but I feel like the scum win one timeline and auto win the game scenario is one that probably would have been thought of in the design process while deciding mechanics of dividing up the TLs.

I was going to mention this too. There's no way swowl didn't consider this and mitigated for it with either merging timelines, PRs that can switch, or PRs that can do cross timeline shenangians.

Also, if one does have an investigative power, better to reveal to your QT than the main thread, no? Main thread guarantees scum will see it; with QT it's less likely than not. Note, I'm not saying investigative powers should reveal just that there is a reasonable rationale, if / when you trust your QT mate.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: hypercube on May 06, 2021, 01:13:30 pm
It's occurred to me that timelines merging matches the narrative structure of the movie, so that's a minor point suggesting that that will happen at some point.

EFHW, Dylan, ashersky all have said that the advantage of the italic voting plan is in concealing people's timelines - these are first of all not really possible to conceal as has been pointed out already, and also there seems to be obvious advantages to letting everyone vote. I'm not sure if not picking up on that is scummy or towny though.
No, you have that backwards. The advantage of concealing timelines is that the italics plan could preserve some agency for the forward timeline folks. There are probably too many known timelines at this point for it to work, though.

It sure feels like we're not going to get anywhere if we don't even know who we can exile.

On that note, people who have claimed/are confirmed Reverse: MiX, Glooble, mathdude, faust, hypercube
Forward: Dylan, scolapasta, Galzria, EFHW, Didds
Unknown: chairs, joth, ashersky, PPS, Awaclus, gkreig

So out of Reverse/Unknown, I think I like vote: joth
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: Glooble on May 06, 2021, 01:35:10 pm
vote: joth. Feels very much like his last scum game.

vote: joth

Been feeling this too. Town joth tends to be a mix of useful posts and irreverent/jokey posts, all jokes joth is often scum!joth. But I think he's forward timeline (at least he implied as much.)
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: Glooble on May 06, 2021, 01:36:15 pm
(I'm probably going to put an actual vote down on faust, MiX, or mathdude I just can't decide who. Need time to reread/ think and work is busy.)
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: Glooble on May 06, 2021, 01:37:13 pm
Oh and timeline QT buddy- please read our QT and answer my question when you have a chance. Thx.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: Glooble on May 06, 2021, 01:43:09 pm
Here's a slightly more specific summary of my thinking (part of me posting this is just holding myself accountable to flesh this out once I have time) - I am weighing the merits of three scenarios right now, one where faust is scum and MiX is town, one where MiX is scum and faust is town, and one where they are both town and mathdude is scum trying hard to push the faust vs. MiX narrative. I would be incredibly surprised if all three of them were town-aligned.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: EFHW on May 06, 2021, 02:33:52 pm
vote: joth. Feels very much like his last scum game.

vote: joth

Been feeling this too. Town joth tends to be a mix of useful posts and irreverent/jokey posts, all jokes joth is often scum!joth. But I think he's forward timeline (at least he implied as much.)
He hasn't been all jokes.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: Swowl on May 06, 2021, 03:11:26 pm
Vote Count 1.2:

MiX (2): PPS, Awaclus
hypercube (1): mathdude
faust (1): MiX

Not Voting (12): EFHW, WCD, scolapasta, faust, chairs, hypercube, Joth, Galzria, Ashersky, Glooble, gkrieg, Dylan

With 8 alive on the ACTIVE TIMELINE, it takes 5 to Exile.
Day 1 starts now and ends Tuesday, May 11th at 3:25pm Forum Time.

*Chairs has been prodded.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: Dylan32 on May 06, 2021, 03:19:35 pm
vote: joth. Feels very much like his last scum game.

vote: joth

Been feeling this too. Town joth tends to be a mix of useful posts and irreverent/jokey posts, all jokes joth is often scum!joth. But I think he's forward timeline (at least he implied as much.)
He hasn't been all jokes.

Yeah, just reread and one of (if not his first) post was a joke, but then it's all been either game related or drawing from the movie itself in serious ways.

Vote: Glooble for jumping on someone else's scumread for a fake reason that isn't even remotely true.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: Glooble on May 06, 2021, 03:43:38 pm
vote: joth. Feels very much like his last scum game.

vote: joth

Been feeling this too. Town joth tends to be a mix of useful posts and irreverent/jokey posts, all jokes joth is often scum!joth. But I think he's forward timeline (at least he implied as much.)
He hasn't been all jokes.

Maybe not all jokes, but very little substance compared to his normal games. Everything he's said has looked to me like stuff you say just to avoid looking like a lurker.

So I did a quick reread of mathdude, and some of the stuff I thought he'd said was actually pingpongsam. But- he still came off really scummy to me in the reread. It definitely seemed liked he was fishing for role info, and the way he's pushing faust looks opportunistic and shady. Also, I think faust is town.

So I'm comfortable with a vote: mathdude.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: Dylan32 on May 06, 2021, 04:49:17 pm
vote: joth. Feels very much like his last scum game.

vote: joth

Been feeling this too. Town joth tends to be a mix of useful posts and irreverent/jokey posts, all jokes joth is often scum!joth. But I think he's forward timeline (at least he implied as much.)
He hasn't been all jokes.

Maybe not all jokes, but very little substance compared to his normal games. Everything he's said has looked to me like stuff you say just to avoid looking like a lurker.

So I did a quick reread of mathdude, and some of the stuff I thought he'd said was actually pingpongsam. But- he still came off really scummy to me in the reread. It definitely seemed liked he was fishing for role info, and the way he's pushing faust looks opportunistic and shady. Also, I think faust is town.

So I'm comfortable with a vote: mathdude.

I can't do anything about it today anyway, but there's nothing short of public mod confirmation that mathdude is scum that would make me do anything to eliminate them D1 this game. After pushing his exile in his first game here and what happened last game in the middle of the day (his 2nd game here), dude deserves to see what a D2 looks like here in game 3 lol.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: Glooble on May 06, 2021, 05:00:35 pm
vote: joth. Feels very much like his last scum game.

vote: joth

Been feeling this too. Town joth tends to be a mix of useful posts and irreverent/jokey posts, all jokes joth is often scum!joth. But I think he's forward timeline (at least he implied as much.)
He hasn't been all jokes.

Maybe not all jokes, but very little substance compared to his normal games. Everything he's said has looked to me like stuff you say just to avoid looking like a lurker.

So I did a quick reread of mathdude, and some of the stuff I thought he'd said was actually pingpongsam. But- he still came off really scummy to me in the reread. It definitely seemed liked he was fishing for role info, and the way he's pushing faust looks opportunistic and shady. Also, I think faust is town.

So I'm comfortable with a vote: mathdude.

I can't do anything about it today anyway, but there's nothing short of public mod confirmation that mathdude is scum that would make me do anything to eliminate them D1 this game. After pushing his exile in his first game here and what happened last game in the middle of the day (his 2nd game here), dude deserves to see what a D2 looks like here in game 3 lol.

Thanks for the context- I've been taking a break since the fall, so I've never played with him before.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: MiX on May 06, 2021, 05:03:51 pm
vote: joth. Feels very much like his last scum game.

vote: joth

Been feeling this too. Town joth tends to be a mix of useful posts and irreverent/jokey posts, all jokes joth is often scum!joth. But I think he's forward timeline (at least he implied as much.)
He hasn't been all jokes.

Maybe not all jokes, but very little substance compared to his normal games. Everything he's said has looked to me like stuff you say just to avoid looking like a lurker.

So I did a quick reread of mathdude, and some of the stuff I thought he'd said was actually pingpongsam. But- he still came off really scummy to me in the reread. It definitely seemed liked he was fishing for role info, and the way he's pushing faust looks opportunistic and shady. Also, I think faust is town.

So I'm comfortable with a vote: mathdude.

I can't do anything about it today anyway, but there's nothing short of public mod confirmation that mathdude is scum that would make me do anything to eliminate them D1 this game. After pushing his exile in his first game here and what happened last game in the middle of the day (his 2nd game here), dude deserves to see what a D2 looks like here in game 3 lol.

This is not game 3 - he's been scum since.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: chairs on May 06, 2021, 05:10:49 pm
Vote: faust

Timeline hiding is worthless.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: Dylan32 on May 06, 2021, 06:05:45 pm
vote: joth. Feels very much like his last scum game.

vote: joth

Been feeling this too. Town joth tends to be a mix of useful posts and irreverent/jokey posts, all jokes joth is often scum!joth. But I think he's forward timeline (at least he implied as much.)
He hasn't been all jokes.

Maybe not all jokes, but very little substance compared to his normal games. Everything he's said has looked to me like stuff you say just to avoid looking like a lurker.

So I did a quick reread of mathdude, and some of the stuff I thought he'd said was actually pingpongsam. But- he still came off really scummy to me in the reread. It definitely seemed liked he was fishing for role info, and the way he's pushing faust looks opportunistic and shady. Also, I think faust is town.

So I'm comfortable with a vote: mathdude.

I can't do anything about it today anyway, but there's nothing short of public mod confirmation that mathdude is scum that would make me do anything to eliminate them D1 this game. After pushing his exile in his first game here and what happened last game in the middle of the day (his 2nd game here), dude deserves to see what a D2 looks like here in game 3 lol.

This is not game 3 - he's been scum since.

Oh, are you counting the BM game? Because I feel like those donít count lol
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: Awaclus on May 06, 2021, 06:16:45 pm
Oh, are you counting the BM game? Because I feel like those donít count lol

It was more or less just an RMM, I think the main "bastard" mechanic in it was that players weren't always fully told what their abilities did.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: MiX on May 06, 2021, 06:17:49 pm
Oh, are you counting the BM game? Because I feel like those donít count lol

It was more or less just an RMM, I think the main "bastard" mechanic in it was that players weren't always fully told what their abilities did.

It was normal enough that him being scum there is enough to consider him having been scum before. He had a normal scum team and all.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: mathdude on May 06, 2021, 07:42:05 pm
One thing no one has mentioned, and I think itís worth pointing it out to give swowl some design credit. In the movie, the two timelines eventually converge. By what mechanic that might be done, idk, but I feel like the scum win one timeline and auto win the game scenario is one that probably would have been thought of in the design process while deciding mechanics of dividing up the TLs.

I was going to mention this too. There's no way swowl didn't consider this and mitigated for it with either merging timelines, PRs that can switch, or PRs that can do cross timeline shenangians.

I'm at least 90% sure this is accounted for. I asked a question in QT and the response wasn't indicative but basically gives me confidence in saying we won't lose automatically if scum takes majority in one timeline.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: mathdude on May 06, 2021, 07:51:21 pm
Yeah, just reread and one of (if not his first) post was a joke, but then it's all been either game related or drawing from the movie itself in serious ways.

Vote: Glooble for jumping on someone else's scumread for a fake reason that isn't even remotely true.

So voting for one of the people who has actually been helpful in pointing out reasons faust is likely scum? Are you defending faust or just misreading Glooble?
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: mathdude on May 06, 2021, 07:56:02 pm
Here's a slightly more specific summary of my thinking (part of me posting this is just holding myself accountable to flesh this out once I have time) - I am weighing the merits of three scenarios right now, one where faust is scum and MiX is town, one where MiX is scum and faust is town, and one where they are both town and mathdude is scum trying hard to push the faust vs. MiX narrative. I would be incredibly surprised if all three of them were town-aligned.

I'm town. So you're basically saying one of MiX or faust are scum but not both. Noted.

So I did a quick reread of mathdude, and some of the stuff I thought he'd said was actually pingpongsam. But- he still came off really scummy to me in the reread. It definitely seemed liked he was fishing for role info, and the way he's pushing faust looks opportunistic and shady. Also, I think faust is town.

So I'm comfortable with a vote: mathdude.

So some of the stuff you thought I said was pps, yet you still think I'm scummy? I'm not fishing for info. I'm trying to help down actually do something today.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: scolapasta on May 06, 2021, 07:56:52 pm
One thing no one has mentioned, and I think itís worth pointing it out to give swowl some design credit. In the movie, the two timelines eventually converge. By what mechanic that might be done, idk, but I feel like the scum win one timeline and auto win the game scenario is one that probably would have been thought of in the design process while deciding mechanics of dividing up the TLs.

I was going to mention this too. There's no way swowl didn't consider this and mitigated for it with either merging timelines, PRs that can switch, or PRs that can do cross timeline shenangians.

I'm at least 90% sure this is accounted for. I asked a question in QT and the response wasn't indicative but basically gives me confidence in saying we won't lose automatically if scum takes majority in one timeline.

Why ask in QT vs main thread?
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: mathdude on May 06, 2021, 08:03:10 pm
I can't do anything about it today anyway, but there's nothing short of public mod confirmation that mathdude is scum that would make me do anything to eliminate them D1 this game. After pushing his exile in his first game here and what happened last game in the middle of the day (his 2nd game here), dude deserves to see what a D2 looks like here in game 3 lol.

This is not game 3 - he's been scum since.

Oh, are you counting the BM game? Because I feel like those donít count lol

Ya, I don't want to throw myself under the bus, but that BM game basically felt like RMM. And I was scum. And I think I played it fairly well. Probably too well, because I played it the way I want to play as town. So now whatever I do (push between pubby and Bright in that game, pushing between faust and opposing views here) is going to look scummy because of that. That's life. It's the town meta that works for me. I'm town here. I'm doing it again. Take that as you will. I won't give up. I won't let down. And I won't change.

I'm at least 90% sure this is accounted for. I asked a question in QT and the response wasn't indicative but basically gives me confidence in saying we won't lose automatically if scum takes majority in one timeline.

Why ask in QT vs main thread?

Good question. I just did. You want me to ask here too?
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: scolapasta on May 06, 2021, 08:06:04 pm
Why ask in QT vs main thread?

Good question. I just did. You want me to ask here too?
[/quote]

No, I want to know why you asked in the QT vs main thread.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: scolapasta on May 06, 2021, 08:07:00 pm
Whoops, quote fail:

I'm at least 90% sure this is accounted for. I asked a question in QT and the response wasn't indicative but basically gives me confidence in saying we won't lose automatically if scum takes majority in one timeline.

Why ask in QT vs main thread?

Good question. I just did. You want me to ask here too?

No, I want to know why you asked in the QT vs main thread.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: mathdude on May 06, 2021, 08:12:54 pm
Whoops, quote fail:

I'm at least 90% sure this is accounted for. I asked a question in QT and the response wasn't indicative but basically gives me confidence in saying we won't lose automatically if scum takes majority in one timeline.

Why ask in QT vs main thread?

Good question. I just did. You want me to ask here too?

No, I want to know why you asked in the QT vs main thread.

There is a reason. And I won't share it.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: WestCoastDidds on May 06, 2021, 08:13:37 pm
It's occurred to me that timelines merging matches the narrative structure of the movie, so that's a minor point suggesting that that will happen at some point.

EFHW, Dylan, ashersky all have said that the advantage of the italic voting plan is in concealing people's timelines - these are first of all not really possible to conceal as has been pointed out already, and also there seems to be obvious advantages to letting everyone vote. I'm not sure if not picking up on that is scummy or towny though.
No, you have that backwards. The advantage of concealing timelines is that the italics plan could preserve some agency for the forward timeline folks. There are probably too many known timelines at this point for it to work, though.

It sure feels like we're not going to get anywhere if we don't even know who we can exile.

On that note, people who have claimed/are confirmed Reverse: MiX, Glooble, mathdude, faust, hypercube
Forward: Dylan, scolapasta, Galzria, EFHW, Didds
Unknown: chairs, joth, ashersky, PPS, Awaclus, gkreig

So out of Reverse/Unknown, I think I like vote: joth

And now we can add:
MiX (2): PPS, Awaclus
hypercube (1): mathdude
faust (1): MiX

So, now we have confirmed Reverse: MiX, Glooble, mathdude, faust, hypercube, Awaclus, PPS 
That means that we are only missing one. Chairs has since voted, but we don't know yet if it counted.  If it did, then hes's the eighth.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: mathdude on May 06, 2021, 09:12:11 pm
And now we can add:
MiX (2): PPS, Awaclus
hypercube (1): mathdude
faust (1): MiX

So, now we have confirmed Reverse: MiX, Glooble, mathdude, faust, hypercube, Awaclus, PPS 
That means that we are only missing one. Chairs has since voted, but we don't know yet if it counted.  If it did, then hes's the eighth.

I believe Glooble is just claimed, not confirmed. So we might as well confirm it, then we can move on away from this italic vote thing once we either get chairs confirmed or find the 8th.

 vote: Glooble
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: pingpongsam on May 06, 2021, 09:39:13 pm
Well, I see chairs hasnít changed!
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: pingpongsam on May 06, 2021, 09:39:32 pm
ashersky not rolling out a plan is different.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: Glooble on May 06, 2021, 09:44:00 pm
ashersky not rolling out a plan is different.

He was late to the party and there were already a couple of plans.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: Dylan32 on May 06, 2021, 11:46:49 pm
ashersky not rolling out a plan is different.

ashersky not rolling out a plan is different.

He was late to the party and there were already a couple of plans.

He's also not been as quick to do that the last couple games, so that's more normal recently, but yeah definitely different than back when you were playing here last.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: Dylan32 on May 06, 2021, 11:49:38 pm
Yeah, just reread and one of (if not his first) post was a joke, but then it's all been either game related or drawing from the movie itself in serious ways.

Vote: Glooble for jumping on someone else's scumread for a fake reason that isn't even remotely true.

So voting for one of the people who has actually been helpful in pointing out reasons faust is likely scum? Are you defending faust or just misreading Glooble?

I think you're misreading, because I was "voting" for Glooble for jumping in and agreeing with someone else that joth was scummy and giving a reason for it that was easily proven wrong.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: Dylan32 on May 06, 2021, 11:52:10 pm
vote: joth. Feels very much like his last scum game.

vote: joth

Been feeling this too. Town joth tends to be a mix of useful posts and irreverent/jokey posts, all jokes joth is often scum!joth. But I think he's forward timeline (at least he implied as much.)
He hasn't been all jokes.

Maybe not all jokes, but very little substance compared to his normal games. Everything he's said has looked to me like stuff you say just to avoid looking like a lurker.

--snip--

I mean, that might be valid, but it's very much not the same as "all jokes" like you originally said. I guess this wasn't super scummy for you, but it's enough to be scum side of null for now.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: Swowl on May 07, 2021, 04:23:59 am
Vote Count 1.2:

MiX (2): PPS, Awaclus
Eddie (2): MiX, chairs
mathdude (1): Glooble
Glooble (1): mathdude

Not Voting (10): EFHW, WCD, scolapasta, Eddie, hypercube, Joth, Galzria, Ashersky, gkrieg, Dylan

With 8 alive on the ACTIVE TIMELINE, it takes 5 to Exile.
Day 1 starts now and ends Tuesday, May 11th at 3:25pm Forum Time.


*faust has subbed out. UncleEurope (Eddie) is now faust. This will be shown from starting with this vote count and forward.*
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: Uncleeurope on May 07, 2021, 05:07:10 am
I've read most of everything, I forgot to actually read it from the perspective of someone who cares about the outcome of the game, so that's a bit of an oops on my part.

I was able to escape the other side of the thread with a singular town read.

As well as a fuzzy reason to vote for Glooble, although who knows how accurate that fuzzy feeling is, I am pretty rusty after all.

Did we decide to just vote for people for funsies? Or are people still wanting to contemplate hiding votes? I feel obligatorily compelled to like the not-voting plan, which is counter to my very nature.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: MiX on May 07, 2021, 05:50:06 am
What??

Unvote

Okay wait that might actually make faust town by necessity.

I've read most of everything, I forgot to actually read it from the perspective of someone who cares about the outcome of the game, so that's a bit of an oops on my part.

I was able to escape the other side of the thread with a singular town read.

As well as a fuzzy reason to vote for Glooble, although who knows how accurate that fuzzy feeling is, I am pretty rusty after all.

Did we decide to just vote for people for funsies? Or are people still wanting to contemplate hiding votes? I feel obligatorily compelled to like the not-voting plan, which is counter to my very nature.

I...don't know. You were the one pushing for it. Uuuuuh.

Honestly there's so many timelines known already that it probably doesn't matter anymore.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: mathdude on May 07, 2021, 07:56:21 am
There is absolutely no purpose now for the hidden votes. With Glooble and chairs now registering on the vote count, we know all 8 players on the Active Reverse timeline.

And now with faust replaced, I don't know what to do with that.

unvote
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: hypercube on May 07, 2021, 08:42:12 am
Hi Eddie!

Even though we know all the timelines now, I still think people on the inactive timeline should vote (or actually probably vote is better so we'll know if someone's timeline changes) so that the active timeline people can at the very least take their opinions into account, even though it looks like we're not getting consensus on binding the exile to the overall majority.

Glooble voting for joth seems more like lazy town than lazy scum tbqh. On the other side of that coin, vote: chairs.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: Glooble on May 07, 2021, 08:52:03 am
I think it's interesting how there seemed to be a lot of enthusiasm for a faust exile and then it just kind of evaporated.

Not sure what it means, but it seems like something worth examining.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: jotheonah on May 07, 2021, 09:14:18 am
Hi! So I was out yesterday cause I was getting my second shot and then recovering from side effects. So what I did with myself was, I re-watched Memento.

This is what occurred to me.

- As a mod, I would have a darn hard time. finding 16 characters at all. Actually appearing in the main timelines there's just Leonard, Teddy, Natalie, Jimmy G, Dobb, the hotel clerk, and the escort. Oh and I guess the tattoo parlor lady. And then if you add the flashbacks you can add Sammi Jankins, Sammi''s wife, Lenny's wife, maybe the actual John G and his accomplice? And then we're still short three characters. And the characters don't neatly split up among timelines. In particular, Leonard and Teddy feature heavily in both. So I wonder if multiple players can be assigned the same character. Or if there are two players who are in both timelines somehow.

- There isn't an obvious single group of people to be a scum team. The bad guys are either outright shown or implied to be allied against one another. I wouldn't be surprised if we were looking at multi-ball. And it's a movie where even the hero ends up being an anti-hero and everyone Leonard meets mistreats or takes advantage of him. So maybe the scum team is not associated with flavor at all, since all the characters are scummy to some degree.

- It's been said, but the two timelines DO converge and interact, but only at the end, and when they do it's sort of pivotal to the film. So, if I were designing the game, I would probably create a mechanism for the timelines to come together at MiLo or ExLo, or possibly when an event triggers it.

- In terms of PRs, I'm pretty darn sure we have investigative PRs because investigating/mystery solving is such an important part of the film. Other than that nothing obvious pops up.

Addressing the case on me: I've struggled to engage with this game as much as I'd like to so far. But I'm a bad exile for today. Mainly because it's not my timeline.

Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: WestCoastDidds on May 07, 2021, 09:30:14 am
Eddie!! We have missed you so! Itís good to have you back.

faust, I hope everything is okay. Joth, hooray in shot #2!

Vote: MiX or maybe vote: chairs

Italics voting is fun!
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: MiX on May 07, 2021, 09:49:37 am
Hey joth...what are the chances there's multiple versions of the same character? Like a forward and reverse timeline version?
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: mathdude on May 07, 2021, 09:58:18 am
I watched the movie a long time ago, and so I only remember the general concept. But as people talk about it, it's starting to come back.

The idea of timelines merging makes sense from a game design perspective and obviously thematically as well. I could think of a few possible triggers if I were designing the game:
- once we get to a certain number of people (probably 7-9), similar to Survivor merging their tribes
- once scum has control over one timeline
- when a certain number of nights has passed
- if someone has a role that can trigger it (though it would have to be something they can't do night 1 or probably even 2 or it makes the timelines almost pointless)

Based on joth's counting of characters, I even wonder if pairs of people actually have the same character in opposite timelines. Maybe this isn't true for everyone, but just for some? Maybe the original game design of 18 characters was just 9 of them doubled up? So based on this possibility, there are 2 other possible mechanisms at play:
- when one of each double-character dies, the timelines may merge
- anyone with doubles may be unknowingly connected to their other half and if one dies, then the other dies too!
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: jotheonah on May 07, 2021, 10:17:41 am
Hey joth...what are the chances there's multiple versions of the same character? Like a forward and reverse timeline version?

I think it's very possible there's two versions of Leonard and Teddy. Probably not anyone else?
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: pingpongsam on May 07, 2021, 10:45:11 am
What I remember most about the movie was the realization that itís effectively scenes played in reverse order. In fact, thereís an internet version that does just this and that movie is much more coherent and the protagonist is clearly a lunatic asshole.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: jotheonah on May 07, 2021, 11:00:10 am
Yeah. The protagonist can't form new longterm memories, so he's basically living moment to moment. The film presents the scenes backwards to put you in his headspace -- always starting the scene with no idea what's going on.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: mathdude on May 07, 2021, 11:46:44 am
I think it's interesting how there seemed to be a lot of enthusiasm for a faust exile and then it just kind of evaporated.

Not sure what it means, but it seems like something worth examining.

So you're saying I should be voting for Eddie now, since I thought faust was scum?  I'd consider it.  But until then...

Vote: Glooble
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: chairs on May 07, 2021, 12:33:09 pm
I support the two players one character theory.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: Uncleeurope on May 07, 2021, 12:39:59 pm
I support the two players one character theory.

It kind of makes me mildly curious about a day one flavor name claim.

But I doubt itís that important or helpful.

I guess Iíll Vote: Glooble


Another meta-y thing to think about is QT partners, the likelihood that two scum are paired together is low, so everyone claiming their partners is good.

This is countered by previous meís (quite solid) point that investigative roles can leak their results out through partners without putting.

Well... except to their partner... Who could easily be scum...
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: MiX on May 07, 2021, 12:55:21 pm
I support the two players one character theory.

It kind of makes me mildly curious about a day one flavor name claim.

But I doubt itís that important or helpful.

I guess Iíll Vote: Glooble


Another meta-y thing to think about is QT partners, the likelihood that two scum are paired together is low, so everyone claiming their partners is good.

This is countered by previous meís (quite solid) point that investigative roles can leak their results out through partners without putting.

Well... except to their partner... Who could easily be scum...

Last time Swowl hosted a game with random neighborhoods, the two scum that were in the same QT died very quickly (one of being scummy...the other for being townie. Oops.)

Anyway I don't see the point of outing partners.

Also, can you explain your scumread on Glooble? You can do it, I believe in you.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: WestCoastDidds on May 07, 2021, 01:00:48 pm
Two players one character especially makes sense in light of the fact that our powers are only effective when its the day/night of our timeline. 
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: Uncleeurope on May 07, 2021, 02:38:39 pm
Nope, no description for my vote, and I havenít called it a scumread yet.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: mathdude on May 07, 2021, 02:52:35 pm
I support the two players one character theory.

It kind of makes me mildly curious about a day one flavor name claim.

But I doubt itís that important or helpful.

I guess Iíll Vote: Glooble


Another meta-y thing to think about is QT partners, the likelihood that two scum are paired together is low, so everyone claiming their partners is good.

This is countered by previous meís (quite solid) point that investigative roles can leak their results out through partners without putting.

Well... except to their partner... Who could easily be scum...

I strongly oppose a day 1 flavour name claim. It seems roles are related to player. Yes, this might help us figure out scum if we can figure out who they might be. But I think more likely, it gives scum, who can collaborate, the ability to work out which probable power roles they want to kill off.

Discussions about partners may not be helpful either. Maybe 2 scum are together. Maybe they are all separate. We have no idea. If you assume no scum are together, but Swowl put 2 scum in each timeline and they are QT partners (and that's their scum chat), then we'd be screwed. Also, some people, like MiX, like to keep their QT secret.

So yes, you are quite different than the previous "you" in this game. But with you wanting so much info out that could potentially harm town, I think I'll
Vote: Eddie
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: scolapasta on May 07, 2021, 03:08:06 pm
I think it doesn't make sense to reveal (at least D1/2) are flavor names and/or QT partners. But I will say this: I have NO CLUE what my flavor has to do with the theme. I mean it's a name, but when I try to google it, I don't see any (at least immediate) connection to Memento.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: Uncleeurope on May 07, 2021, 03:09:01 pm
Yup, I also am against Day 1 flavor claiming, itís a bad idea, whoever thought of it should be ashamed.

The QT thing is more interesting, but I didnít know that the QT partners were fully random, which makes it less than more interesting.

So, just interesting.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: Uncleeurope on May 07, 2021, 03:10:41 pm
Yeah, Iím trying to not think about the flavor as best I can, I havenít seen the film and am trying to get out of this game unscathed.

I skipped about 30% of Jothís post up there, for example.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: Glooble on May 07, 2021, 04:02:16 pm
I think it doesn't make sense to reveal (at least D1/2) are flavor names and/or QT partners. But I will say this: I have NO CLUE what my flavor has to do with the theme. I mean it's a name, but when I try to google it, I don't see any (at least immediate) connection to Memento.

I also decided to rewatch Memento after reading Jonah's post and my flavor name also has 0 connection to the film.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: Swowl on May 07, 2021, 06:56:18 pm
Vote Count 1.3:

MiX (2): PPS, Awaclus
Eddie (2): chairs, mathdude
mathdude (1): Glooble
Glooble (1): Eddie

Not Voting (10): EFHW, WCD, scolapasta, hypercube, Joth, Galzria, Ashersky, gkrieg, Dylan, MiX

With 8 alive on the ACTIVE TIMELINE, it takes 5 to Exile.
Day 1 starts now and ends Tuesday, May 11th at 3:25pm Forum Time.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: mathdude on May 07, 2021, 07:49:01 pm
Vote Count 1.3:

MiX (2): PPS, Awaclus
Eddie (2): chairs, mathdude
mathdude (1): Glooble
Glooble (1): Eddie

Not Voting (10): EFHW, WCD, scolapasta, hypercube, Joth, Galzria, Ashersky, gkrieg, Dylan, MiX

With 8 alive on the ACTIVE TIMELINE, it takes 5 to Exile.
Day 1 starts now and ends Tuesday, May 11th at 3:25pm Forum Time.

For those who haven't tracked, the 8 on the Active Reverse Timeline are pps, Awaclus, chairs, mathdude, Glooble, Eddie, MiX, and hypercube.

Also, Glooble, you can take your vote off me. It's been there long enough and I'm town. If you don't find somewhere else to put it, I may have to take my vote off Eddie and instead vote with him. Because a vote on me is scummy.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: Uncleeurope on May 07, 2021, 08:05:33 pm
Voting on me is also scummy.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: Glooble on May 07, 2021, 08:09:56 pm
Vote Count 1.3:

MiX (2): PPS, Awaclus
Eddie (2): chairs, mathdude
mathdude (1): Glooble
Glooble (1): Eddie

Not Voting (10): EFHW, WCD, scolapasta, hypercube, Joth, Galzria, Ashersky, gkrieg, Dylan, MiX

With 8 alive on the ACTIVE TIMELINE, it takes 5 to Exile.
Day 1 starts now and ends Tuesday, May 11th at 3:25pm Forum Time.

For those who haven't tracked, the 8 on the Active Reverse Timeline are pps, Awaclus, chairs, mathdude, Glooble, Eddie, MiX, and hypercube.

Also, Glooble, you can take your vote off me. It's been there long enough and I'm town. If you don't find somewhere else to put it, I may have to take my vote off Eddie and instead vote with him. Because a vote on me is scummy.

This post is scummier than anything I've seen from you so far.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: Glooble on May 07, 2021, 08:22:13 pm
Like, I was probably going to move my vote sooner or later but now I'm definitely not.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: EFHW on May 07, 2021, 08:22:52 pm
I think it doesn't make sense to reveal (at least D1/2) are flavor names and/or QT partners. But I will say this: I have NO CLUE what my flavor has to do with the theme. I mean it's a name, but when I try to google it, I don't see any (at least immediate) connection to Memento.

I also decided to rewatch Memento after reading Jonah's post and my flavor name also has 0 connection to the film.
I guess Jonah is joth?
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: EFHW on May 07, 2021, 08:23:25 pm
Middle name Theo?
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: Glooble on May 07, 2021, 08:25:52 pm
I think it doesn't make sense to reveal (at least D1/2) are flavor names and/or QT partners. But I will say this: I have NO CLUE what my flavor has to do with the theme. I mean it's a name, but when I try to google it, I don't see any (at least immediate) connection to Memento.

I also decided to rewatch Memento after reading Jonah's post and my flavor name also has 0 connection to the film.
I guess Jonah is joth?

oh, yeah sorry.

Like, I was probably going to move my vote sooner or later but now I'm definitely not.

This actually not true, I will definitely move my vote when I see a better place to put it, but your whole " a vote for me is scummy" refrain made that a lot less likely. In my experience scum says that a lot more often than town.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: scolapasta on May 07, 2021, 08:32:36 pm
I think it doesn't make sense to reveal (at least D1/2) are flavor names and/or QT partners. But I will say this: I have NO CLUE what my flavor has to do with the theme. I mean it's a name, but when I try to google it, I don't see any (at least immediate) connection to Memento.

I also decided to rewatch Memento after reading Jonah's post and my flavor name also has 0 connection to the film.
I guess Jonah is joth?

oh, yeah sorry.

Like, I was probably going to move my vote sooner or later but now I'm definitely not.

This actually not true, I will definitely move my vote when I see a better place to put it, but your whole " a vote for me is scummy" refrain made that a lot less likely. In my experience scum says that a lot more often than town.

Yeah, it may not be the kind of thing that makes you keep your vote there, but is definitely not going to make you move your vote away.

"don't vote for me, or I'll vote for you!" - what is this Mafia Mafia, now? :)
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: mathdude on May 07, 2021, 09:03:20 pm
Vote Count 1.3:

MiX (2): PPS, Awaclus
Eddie (2): chairs, mathdude
mathdude (1): Glooble
Glooble (1): Eddie

Not Voting (10): EFHW, WCD, scolapasta, hypercube, Joth, Galzria, Ashersky, gkrieg, Dylan, MiX

With 8 alive on the ACTIVE TIMELINE, it takes 5 to Exile.
Day 1 starts now and ends Tuesday, May 11th at 3:25pm Forum Time.

For those who haven't tracked, the 8 on the Active Reverse Timeline are pps, Awaclus, chairs, mathdude, Glooble, Eddie, MiX, and hypercube.

Also, Glooble, you can take your vote off me. It's been there long enough and I'm town. If you don't find somewhere else to put it, I may have to take my vote off Eddie and instead vote with him. Because a vote on me is scummy.

This post is scummier than anything I've seen from you so far.

Like, I was probably going to move my vote sooner or later but now I'm definitely not.

This actually not true, I will definitely move my vote when I see a better place to put it, but your whole " a vote for me is scummy" refrain made that a lot less likely. In my experience scum says that a lot more often than town.

And yet I'm still town.

Yeah, it may not be the kind of thing that makes you keep your vote there, but is definitely not going to make you move your vote away.

"don't vote for me, or I'll vote for you!" - what is this Mafia Mafia, now? :)

Why is it Mafia Mafia? Because you're scum, you know I'm not, so you're wondering if there's another Mafia faction? I have no idea.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: mathdude on May 07, 2021, 09:27:53 pm
Eddie or Glooble, whichever of you are scum...
Does scum have day-chat this game? Are you QT buddies with a scum-mate? Will you be coordinating your votes with them?

(I'd ask scola too, but he's not Active timeline... guess you can still answer the first two questions).
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: Uncleeurope on May 07, 2021, 10:39:01 pm
Eddie or Glooble, whichever of you are scum...
Does scum have day-chat this game? Are you QT buddies with a scum-mate? Will you be coordinating your votes with them?

(I'd ask scola too, but he's not Active timeline... guess you can still answer the first two questions).

Iím pretty suspicious I have daychat with scum, yes.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: mathdude on May 07, 2021, 10:54:13 pm
Eddie or Glooble, whichever of you are scum...
Does scum have day-chat this game? Are you QT buddies with a scum-mate? Will you be coordinating your votes with them?

(I'd ask scola too, but he's not Active timeline... guess you can still answer the first two questions).

Iím pretty suspicious I have daychat with scum, yes.

So Glooble is your QT partner? Or he's scum with your QT partner?
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: Uncleeurope on May 08, 2021, 12:35:58 am
Eddie or Glooble, whichever of you are scum...
Does scum have day-chat this game? Are you QT buddies with a scum-mate? Will you be coordinating your votes with them?

(I'd ask scola too, but he's not Active timeline... guess you can still answer the first two questions).

Iím pretty suspicious I have daychat with scum, yes.

So Glooble is your QT partner? Or he's scum with your QT partner?

No comment.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: MiX on May 08, 2021, 06:36:18 am
I don't even know what math is doing. I don't...know.

First gut read is he's third-party, since this certainly is new, and we haven't see third-party math, but now I'm thinking he's just town with a plan.

Vote: chairs, I'm townreading Glooble and math, and I don't want uncle dead, so chairs is the best vote right now.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: Uncleeurope on May 08, 2021, 06:47:16 am
I don't even know what math is doing. I don't...know.

First gut read is he's third-party, since this certainly is new, and we haven't see third-party math, but now I'm thinking he's just town with a plan.

Vote: chairs, I'm townreading Glooble and math, and I don't want uncle dead, so chairs is the best vote right now.

What about mister PPS? That could be a fun vote, no?
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: MiX on May 08, 2021, 06:50:27 am
I don't even know what math is doing. I don't...know.

First gut read is he's third-party, since this certainly is new, and we haven't see third-party math, but now I'm thinking he's just town with a plan.

Vote: chairs, I'm townreading Glooble and math, and I don't want uncle dead, so chairs is the best vote right now.

What about mister PPS? That could be a fun vote, no?

That works too, a lot more NAI posts than I thought he had. This is actually better, let's do it.

Vote: pps
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: Uncleeurope on May 08, 2021, 06:51:36 am
Vote: PPS
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: pingpongsam on May 08, 2021, 08:15:37 am
Whatís the case I am defending?
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: pingpongsam on May 08, 2021, 08:17:44 am
Oh, that I suck for voting MiX both to reveal my timeline and my leanings in the faust kerfluffle! Seems Iíve been posting lots of information if you bother to look.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: Awaclus on May 08, 2021, 09:39:22 am
Whatís the case I am defending?

What's the case you're not defending?
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: mathdude on May 08, 2021, 09:56:37 am
I think it's time for a scum to chum list, of those in the Active timeline (those on the Inactive timeline should also tell the 8 of us how you feel about us all, so it can help us inform our current and future votes).

(Most scummy)
MiX
Eddie, Glooble
chairs
pps, Awaclus, hyper
mathdude
(Least scummy)
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: Awaclus on May 08, 2021, 10:00:40 am
Vote: math
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: MiX on May 08, 2021, 10:28:05 am
I think it's time for a scum to chum list, of those in the Active timeline (those on the Inactive timeline should also tell the 8 of us how you feel about us all, so it can help us inform our current and future votes).

(Most scummy)
MiX
Eddie, Glooble
chairs
pps, Awaclus, hyper
mathdude
(Least scummy)

Sure.

Vote: math
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: mathdude on May 08, 2021, 10:32:13 am
So there's one from the bottom of my list and my top scum read that just straight up vote for me. No real reason. No discussion. Awesome.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: MiX on May 08, 2021, 11:55:51 am
So there's one from the bottom of my list and my top scum read that just straight up vote for me. No real reason. No discussion. Awesome.

Yes, the two people that voted you were in your list.

What do you think of Awaclus now?
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: EFHW on May 08, 2021, 12:02:31 pm
So what is math doing that is making him come across so scummy? There is aggression here. He was certainly crossing swords with faust. Is there a scum narrative, or is this irritation at his approach to the game?
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: MiX on May 08, 2021, 12:05:56 pm
So what is math doing that is making him come across so scummy? There is aggression here. He was certainly crossing swords with faust. Is there a scum narrative, or is this irritation at his approach to the game?

This aggression seems fake. Read his posts, do you think math is that upset? I don't.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: Uncleeurope on May 08, 2021, 12:32:59 pm
I think it's time for a scum to chum list, of those in the Active timeline (those on the Inactive timeline should also tell the 8 of us how you feel about us all, so it can help us inform our current and future votes).

(Most scummy)
MiX
Eddie, Glooble
chairs
pps, Awaclus, hyper
mathdude
(Least scummy)

There seems to be a correlation between total posts made and your level of distrust for them.

Oh, except for the Mathdude, forget the theory.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: hypercube on May 08, 2021, 12:58:04 pm
vote: mathdude
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: hypercube on May 08, 2021, 12:59:48 pm
That's E-1, hmmm
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: mathdude on May 08, 2021, 01:04:19 pm
vote: mathdude

That's hammer?
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: MiX on May 08, 2021, 01:05:05 pm
vote: mathdude

That's hammer?

Yes...yes that's hammer.

Oh god...I can only pray for the best.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: mathdude on May 08, 2021, 01:08:18 pm
Now we have just under 24 hours to figure out what to do with this. I am a Vengeful Cop. We have up to 24 hours of twilight for me to guess how many scum are on my wagon. Mod will answer yes or no tomorrow morning based on my guess.

Thoughts?
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: scolapasta on May 08, 2021, 01:11:05 pm
vote: mathdude

That's hammer?

Yes...yes that's hammer.

Oh god...I can only pray for the best.

What's the best? He self hammered. When is that ever good?

The aggression definitely seemed forced - trying to get get votes on him - and it seems to have worked.

There's really no way he's scum, unless his power has very bad things happen to town if he gets exiled.

So let's hope it's just something like he's a Jester or something like that.

ppe 1
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: mathdude on May 08, 2021, 01:14:19 pm
vote: mathdude

That's hammer?

Yes...yes that's hammer.

Oh god...I can only pray for the best.

What's the best? He self hammered. When is that ever good?

The aggression definitely seemed forced - trying to get get votes on him - and it seems to have worked.

There's really no way he's scum, unless his power has very bad things happen to town if he gets exiled.

So let's hope it's just something like he's a Jester or something like that.

ppe 1

Makes more sense now?
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: MiX on May 08, 2021, 01:17:15 pm
So hmm I'm in math's neighborhood, and he claimed this self-exile plan to me. And I agreed to it. Yeah math is super town lol I guess it's easy to make people vote for you.

That's E-1, hmmm

This is scum, right? Like, what is this reaction?
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: MiX on May 08, 2021, 01:21:54 pm
Oh and uh I think math should guess 1 scum, that should be the most informative number regardless of scum density in this timeline.

Any thoughts?
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: Uncleeurope on May 08, 2021, 01:26:55 pm
So hmm I'm in math's neighborhood, and he claimed this self-exile plan to me. And I agreed to it. Yeah math is super town lol I guess it's easy to make people vote for you.

That's E-1, hmmm

This is scum, right? Like, what is this reaction?

I actually read that you guys were neighbors.

I wasnít very confused as to why you would ever vote for him.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: Uncleeurope on May 08, 2021, 01:29:15 pm
I have no idea what vengeful cop even means, though, what exactly is going to happen here, who gets the result?
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: hypercube on May 08, 2021, 01:32:38 pm
That's E-1, hmmm

This is scum, right? Like, what is this reaction?

That's me being surprised how quickly it got to E-1, which makes more sense now.

Guessing 1 seems like the low risk plan, I wonder if guessing 2 or even 0 is high reward enough to go for.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: MiX on May 08, 2021, 01:34:25 pm
So hmm I'm in math's neighborhood, and he claimed this self-exile plan to me. And I agreed to it. Yeah math is super town lol I guess it's easy to make people vote for you.

That's E-1, hmmm

This is scum, right? Like, what is this reaction?

I actually read that you guys were neighbors.

I wasnít very confused as to why you would ever vote for him.

Was it when math said I didn't want my QT revealed? Because I thought that was a bit revealing :P

I have no idea what vengeful cop even means, though, what exactly is going to happen here, who gets the result?

I assume it's public information? It's possible math gets the info before dying and can claim it.

That's E-1, hmmm

This is scum, right? Like, what is this reaction?

That's me being surprised how quickly it got to E-1, which makes more sense now.

Guessing 1 seems like the low risk plan, I wonder if guessing 2 or even 0 is high reward enough to go for.

Well, I guess in a typical D1, I'd say it's scummy to not immediately unvote. But this is not a typical D1, so I guess it makes more sense to be really surprised and not unvote immediately.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: mathdude on May 08, 2021, 01:37:38 pm
I have no idea what vengeful cop even means, though, what exactly is going to happen here, who gets the result?

I guess publicly here in game (and that triggers the end of twilight). Then mod posts in the morning whether I was right or not.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: Uncleeurope on May 08, 2021, 01:38:07 pm
Oh, did M.D. ever talk about your QT? I must have missed it, haha.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: MiX on May 08, 2021, 01:39:17 pm
Oh, did M.D. ever talk about your QT? I must have missed it, haha.

Huh. Why did you think we were neighbors then?
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: Uncleeurope on May 08, 2021, 01:40:43 pm
Oh, did M.D. ever talk about your QT? I must have missed it, haha.

Huh. Why did you think we were neighbors then?

Dunno. It just happened, havenít though much about neighbors other than thinking to myself ďhmmm, MiX/M.D.Ē

Couldnít tell you why.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: scolapasta on May 08, 2021, 01:42:27 pm
vote: mathdude

That's hammer?

Yes...yes that's hammer.

Oh god...I can only pray for the best.

What's the best? He self hammered. When is that ever good?

The aggression definitely seemed forced - trying to get get votes on him - and it seems to have worked.

There's really no way he's scum, unless his power has very bad things happen to town if he gets exiled.

So let's hope it's just something like he's a Jester or something like that.

ppe 1

Makes more sense now?

I guess? Could you explain the role more? i.e. are you a regular cop and question is the Vengeful ability? or are this your only ability? (related to cop; if there's something else, feel free to not reveal)

At first I was going to say it may have made sense to wait until D3, but maybe thinking further, I do see the potential here as it gets us some solid intel before any weird shenanigans like traitors, scum changing timelines, etc.



So we have two groups:
1. Gloobie, Mix, cube, Awaclus
2. Eddie, chairs, pps

If we assume there are 2 scum in this timeline, then you would guess 0, 1, or 2, here are the options (we do need to be careful as there could also be just 1 scum; and much less likely, 3 scum):
 
Options:

Guess 0:
YES: All ICs in group 1; 2 of the 3 players in Group 2 are scum
NO:  0-1 in the group 1 and 1-2 group 2.

Guess 1:
YES: 1 in group 1, and 1 in group 2
NO: both scum are all in either group 1 or group 2


Guess 2:
YES: 2 in group 1 and 0 in group 2, ICing eddie, chairs, and pps (mostly, again this is with assumption of 2 scum)
NO:  0-1 in the group 1 and 1-2 group 2.

I have my opinion on which guess I like best and which I like worst. But I think it would be valuable to hear from all the Reverses which guess they like best.

ppe: 8

Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: hypercube on May 08, 2021, 01:42:53 pm
Well, I guess in a typical D1, I'd say it's scummy to not immediately unvote. But this is not a typical D1, so I guess it makes more sense to be really surprised and not unvote immediately.

It seemed to defeat the purpose of pressure voting for him to immediately unvote.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: Uncleeurope on May 08, 2021, 01:52:01 pm
First instinct was to go for 1 as MiX suggested, but I think 0 amounts to something similar.

If I were to use it like the ability was intended I would probably vote 1 because thatís my best guess for the correct amount.

0 has a huge upside and learning ďnoĒ means that at least 1 in the list is bad, which would be pretty solid info regardless.

I dunno.

Iím a gambler, so I would go 1. (Yup, the safe play and the risky play swapped for me)

Maybe.

But who knows?
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: MiX on May 08, 2021, 02:00:18 pm
1 is the safe number, the best number regardless of quantity of scum in this timeline (1 or 2), and late in the game it gives basically as much information as the other guesses, regardless of outcome. Given tomorrow will be another timeline, gambling for a better short term result seems inefficient. So, 1's the best number.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: mathdude on May 08, 2021, 02:08:38 pm
I guess? Could you explain the role more? i.e. are you a regular cop and question is the Vengeful ability? or are this your only ability? (related to cop; if there's something else, feel free to not reveal)

At first I was going to say it may have made sense to wait until D3, but maybe thinking further, I do see the potential here as it gets us some solid intel before any weird shenanigans like traitors, scum changing timelines, etc.

I am not a regular cop. I have a 1-shot ability that only works if I'm exiled (I'm useless if killed at night). When exiled, we enter a twilight phase, which lasts up to 24 or until I officially make a bolded guess, whichever comes first.

I post a guess of how many scum on my wagon. You guys go through night phase. Tomorrow morning, with any other night information posted (such as scum kill), mod will answer publicly whether my guess was right or wrong.

Since D1 vote is fairly blind, and at risk of dying either N1 or N2 (assuming we alternate timelines each day, which isn't guaranteed)... I figured I'd make use of my role by making sure I was exiled.

Yes, D3 or later would let me make an even better guess with less on and off wagon. But that's also when we may not be able to afford a town exile in order to gather info. And if I die at night, it's all wasted. This way, I guarantee a more useful PR didn't die today (and I'm pretty sure we'll still get decent info from this).
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: scolapasta on May 08, 2021, 02:13:32 pm
I guess? Could you explain the role more? i.e. are you a regular cop and question is the Vengeful ability? or are this your only ability? (related to cop; if there's something else, feel free to not reveal)

At first I was going to say it may have made sense to wait until D3, but maybe thinking further, I do see the potential here as it gets us some solid intel before any weird shenanigans like traitors, scum changing timelines, etc.

I am not a regular cop. I have a 1-shot ability that only works if I'm exiled (I'm useless if killed at night). When exiled, we enter a twilight phase, which lasts up to 24 or until I officially make a bolded guess, whichever comes first.

I post a guess of how many scum on my wagon. You guys go through night phase. Tomorrow morning, with any other night information posted (such as scum kill), mod will answer publicly whether my guess was right or wrong.

Since D1 vote is fairly blind, and at risk of dying either N1 or N2 (assuming we alternate timelines each day, which isn't guaranteed)... I figured I'd make use of my role by making sure I was exiled.

Yes, D3 or later would let me make an even better guess with less on and off wagon. But that's also when we may not be able to afford a town exile in order to gather info. And if I die at night, it's all wasted. This way, I guarantee a more useful PR didn't die today (and I'm pretty sure we'll still get decent info from this).

It also keeps your meta of dying D1 when town. :)

Does twilight begin when you're hammered or when mod posts the final vote count?

Please don't make your guess until we'ver had a chance to hear from more people their opinion.

Does twilight begin when you're hammered or when mod posts the final vote count?

Swowl, can you confirm the answer to that?
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: Uncleeurope on May 08, 2021, 02:20:03 pm
I kinda wish M.D. had outed the ability start of day and we could have set up the wagon prettier.

That would have had some interesting discussion as well.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: WestCoastDidds on May 08, 2021, 02:24:27 pm
I think it doesn't make sense to reveal (at least D1/2) are flavor names and/or QT partners. But I will say this: I have NO CLUE what my flavor has to do with the theme. I mean it's a name, but when I try to google it, I don't see any (at least immediate) connection to Memento.

I also decided to rewatch Memento after reading Jonah's post and my flavor name also has 0 connection to the film.
I guess Jonah is joth?

Heís Jo-The O-nah! I have said repeatedly that I think he should go by Joth IRL
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: mathdude on May 08, 2021, 02:26:34 pm
I kinda wish M.D. had outed the ability start of day and we could have set up the wagon prettier.

That would have had some interesting discussion as well.

Yes, it would have. But it would have had scum influence the possible setup and results. And I didn't want that.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: WestCoastDidds on May 08, 2021, 02:27:16 pm
So what is math doing that is making him come across so scummy? There is aggression here. He was certainly crossing swords with faust. Is there a scum narrative, or is this irritation at his approach to the game?

This aggression seems fake. Read his posts, do you think math is that upset? I don't.

I donít think heís being fake. I also donít think heís upset. I think that is just his style.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: mathdude on May 08, 2021, 02:29:17 pm
I hammered just after 1pm today. If 24 hours starts at hammer or isn't confirmed, I'll probably make my guess around 11am tomorrow (give myself a buffer in case stuff happens). If mod confirms it's when they post vote count that starts the timer, I may extend my self-deadline
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: WestCoastDidds on May 08, 2021, 02:34:55 pm
Math, do you have an easy list of who is on your wagon?
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: mathdude on May 08, 2021, 02:44:20 pm
Math, do you have an easy list of who is on your wagon?

Like this?

So we have two groups:
1. Gloobie, Mix, cube, Awaclus
2. Eddie, chairs, pps
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: Glooble on May 08, 2021, 03:50:53 pm
Fascinating. Well, good job getting yourself exiled, math.

I think 0 is the best guess, even though I highly doubt there are actually 0 scum on the wagon. It just has the most upside. (A) If we guess zero and swowl says yes, that's 4 ICs, that's insane. (B) If we guess zero and swowl says no, that's four players and we know definitively that at least one is scum, that still greatly increases our odds next time we have to exile in reverse.

If we guess one and swowl says yes, that's not that much better than scenario (A), given that we don't know for sure how many scum are in each timeline. (D) If we guess one and Swowl say no, that tells us very little. Could be 2, could be 0. It's not helpful.

(E) If we guess 2 and Swowl says yes, that's a super useful result, but again (F) if we guess 2 and Swowl says no, it could be 1 or zero, not so useful.

So yeah, I vote we guess zero.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: Swowl on May 08, 2021, 04:03:59 pm
Vote Count 1.Final:

mathdude (5): Glooble, Awaclus, MiX, hypercube, mathdude
MiX (1): PPS
Eddie (1): chairs
PPS (1): Eddie

Not Voting (8): EFHW, WCD, scolapasta, Joth, Galzria, Ashersky, gkrieg, Dylan

With 8 alive on the ACTIVE TIMELINE, it took 5 to Exile.

There is a Twilight period starting now, and ending in 24 hours - That is Sunday, May 9th at 4:05pm Forum Time.
No votes may be changed during the Twilight Period.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: mathdude on May 08, 2021, 04:10:03 pm
The best question to ask is: "what are the two most likely numbers of scum on my train?"
And then the follow-up is: "how do we beat distinguish between them?"

I think there are either 1 or 2. There can't be 3 unless we have some serious imbalance in the two timelines. And it would be quite unlikely scum would pass up such an easy "misexile", so I think it's less likely there are 0.

Agree or disagree?

We can deal with the 2nd question once we sort out this first one (a number of you immediately jumped to the second, and I initially did too, but I think we need to agree on the first one first).
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: EFHW on May 08, 2021, 04:19:30 pm
I guess? Could you explain the role more? i.e. are you a regular cop and question is the Vengeful ability? or are this your only ability? (related to cop; if there's something else, feel free to not reveal)

At first I was going to say it may have made sense to wait until D3, but maybe thinking further, I do see the potential here as it gets us some solid intel before any weird shenanigans like traitors, scum changing timelines, etc.

I am not a regular cop. I have a 1-shot ability that only works if I'm exiled (I'm useless if killed at night). When exiled, we enter a twilight phase, which lasts up to 24 or until I officially make a bolded guess, whichever comes first.

I post a guess of how many scum on my wagon. You guys go through night phase. Tomorrow morning, with any other night information posted (such as scum kill), mod will answer publicly whether my guess was right or wrong.

Since D1 vote is fairly blind, and at risk of dying either N1 or N2 (assuming we alternate timelines each day, which isn't guaranteed)... I figured I'd make use of my role by making sure I was exiled.

Yes, D3 or later would let me make an even better guess with less on and off wagon. But that's also when we may not be able to afford a town exile in order to gather info. And if I die at night, it's all wasted. This way, I guarantee a more useful PR didn't die today (and I'm pretty sure we'll still get decent info from this).

How is "scum" defined? If we are in multiball or have a 3rd party, I'd want to know where they fit into the answer we get. Paraphrase, though!
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: EFHW on May 08, 2021, 04:26:32 pm
The thing about trying to get exiled is that town players vote for you. We are not near deadline. Why would scum be on the wagon now? I think we should ask if there are zero scum. That has the biggest possible payoff. The other choices are about what we would guess anyway based on probability, without the benefit of a question and answer.

Is your guess for the exact number of scum? So that a guess of 1 would get a no answer if there are 2?
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: mathdude on May 08, 2021, 05:10:18 pm
I guess? Could you explain the role more? i.e. are you a regular cop and question is the Vengeful ability? or are this your only ability? (related to cop; if there's something else, feel free to not reveal)

At first I was going to say it may have made sense to wait until D3, but maybe thinking further, I do see the potential here as it gets us some solid intel before any weird shenanigans like traitors, scum changing timelines, etc.

I am not a regular cop. I have a 1-shot ability that only works if I'm exiled (I'm useless if killed at night). When exiled, we enter a twilight phase, which lasts up to 24 or until I officially make a bolded guess, whichever comes first.

I post a guess of how many scum on my wagon. You guys go through night phase. Tomorrow morning, with any other night information posted (such as scum kill), mod will answer publicly whether my guess was right or wrong.

Since D1 vote is fairly blind, and at risk of dying either N1 or N2 (assuming we alternate timelines each day, which isn't guaranteed)... I figured I'd make use of my role by making sure I was exiled.

Yes, D3 or later would let me make an even better guess with less on and off wagon. But that's also when we may not be able to afford a town exile in order to gather info. And if I die at night, it's all wasted. This way, I guarantee a more useful PR didn't die today (and I'm pretty sure we'll still get decent info from this).

How is "scum" defined? If we are in multiball or have a 3rd party, I'd want to know where they fit into the answer we get. Paraphrase, though!

Good question! I just went to double-check.

It is actually a guess of how many "non-town" are on my wagon. Does that change things? Make it less likely to be 0 I assume if there are possible 3rd parties.

The thing about trying to get exiled is that town players vote for you. We are not near deadline. Why would scum be on the wagon now? I think we should ask if there are zero scum. That has the biggest possible payoff. The other choices are about what we would guess anyway based on probability, without the benefit of a question and answer.

Is your guess for the exact number of scum? So that a guess of 1 would get a no answer if there are 2?


It is an exact guess, as far as I can see. So your example would be correct. I will verify in QT to be sure though.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: mathdude on May 08, 2021, 08:25:05 pm
Confirmed. My guess has to be exactly correct to get a "yes".
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: Swowl on May 08, 2021, 08:26:59 pm
Please note:

This is specific to BSG Season 1 - You may only discuss information that is PUBLIC KNOWLEDGE from BSG-1 in this game. This is to say you may only discuss things that would be available to someone that did NOT play BSG - Season 1
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: scolapasta on May 08, 2021, 09:32:38 pm
mathdude, before your exile, can you tell us more about your conversation about this plan with MiX (without quotes, of course)? Was he for it, against it, mixed, etc.?

Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: pingpongsam on May 08, 2021, 10:03:59 pm
Crazy day here with a 7yo bday party and some car maintenance gone awry. Really just checking in before passing out but pretty interested in what has transpired. I support voting Zero.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: mathdude on May 08, 2021, 10:29:48 pm
mathdude, before your exile, can you tell us more about your conversation about this plan with MiX (without quotes, of course)? Was he for it, against it, mixed, etc.?

I didn't share too much with him, being unsure if I could trust him. He knew I wanted to die but didn't know why. I had said a bit more to him, but not much more, practically speaking.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: ashersky on May 08, 2021, 10:31:32 pm
I'm only read to page 11, busy times, and mothers day now.  Just posting to say I'm around.

I will say, given timelines have been sorted, would really make life easier if mod would just include that info in the vote counts...
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: mathdude on May 08, 2021, 10:45:39 pm
mathdude, before your exile, can you tell us more about your conversation about this plan with MiX (without quotes, of course)? Was he for it, against it, mixed, etc.?

I didn't share too much with him, being unsure if I could trust him. He knew I wanted to die but didn't know why. I had said a bit more to him, but not much more, practically speaking.

Oh, and MiX was strongly against it. They said if I'm town, I should not try to die D1, even though they knew my role gave some benefit if I died.

It was only through some more convincing of my own that MiX finally, reluctantly voted for me. They wanted me to full claim here in game and vote for myself first. It should be obvious that that would be too easy for scum to manipulate. I saved my own bike for the hammer intentionally.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: Awaclus on May 08, 2021, 10:57:59 pm
Knowing there's exactly 1 scum out of 4 doesn't seem much better than knowing there's at least 1 scum out of 4, until you figure out who it is and the other 3 become ICs (which might take a long time or never happen). In other words, the worse outcome of guessing 0 seems almost as good as the better outcome of guessing 1. Let's not guess 1.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: Awaclus on May 08, 2021, 11:00:52 pm
Guessing 2 doesn't seem as good as 0 either. I think we should guess 0.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: ashersky on May 08, 2021, 11:13:58 pm
Definitely zero.

Also, didn't even exile had happened.

But zero is the safe play.  If any other number is correct, that's great, but if it is a "no" we lose out.  Like, no, there is not exactly one mafia player in this set of four does not really help us...that still leaves 0, 2, 3, and 4, meaning it could still all be town.

Confirming mafia is there is best.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: scolapasta on May 08, 2021, 11:17:45 pm
In case I don't get to post tomorrow (going through vaccine side effects as we speak  :( ), I think 1 is the worst choice. Between 0 and 2, I agree with the zero people.

One reason I have not yet seen: if one of the most likely, better to have that be in the NO side of things, since then we have some more idea there. Not sure if I'm explaining it well, but I can always do that after the fact, when I don't feel like I'm going to explode.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: mathdude on May 08, 2021, 11:31:15 pm
The best question to ask is: "what are the two most likely numbers of scum on my train?"
And then the follow-up is: "how do we beat distinguish between them?"

I think there are either 1 or 2. There can't be 3 unless we have some serious imbalance in the two timelines. And it would be quite unlikely scum would pass up such an easy "misexile", so I think it's less likely there are 0.

Agree or disagree?

We can deal with the 2nd question once we sort out this first one (a number of you immediately jumped to the second, and I initially did too, but I think we need to agree on the first one first).

It seems like most people missed ^this^ post. [Update - it should now ask about non-town, not ask about scum].

I do NOT want people to weigh in on how many I should guess. I think most people that have posted guesses so far (and even reasoning) have not considered what is in this quoted post.

This question is for ALL 15 PLAYERS, not just the 7 remaining on Reverse Timeline!
WHAT ARE THE TWO MOST LIKELY NUMBERS OF NON-TOWN PLAYERS ON MY WAGON?
(And if you also want to speculate, of the 7 remaining Reverse Timeline players, how many total non-town do you think there are?)

Once we sort of agree on that (which I hope will happen by 8 or 9am), then I will look for opinions on which number to guess. Until that time, anyone who says "you should guess zero" (or one, i.e two)... I wil not pay much attention to why you think so.

(I'll post a more detailed explanation of why this is so important to deal with these questions this way once I get the laptop out in an hour or so... typing all this on phone is annoying enough!)
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: Uncleeurope on May 08, 2021, 11:36:39 pm
Meh, like I said, 0 is safe but boring.

I find it unlikely that the wagon is clean, and view a guess to how many we think there actually are (probably 1) as better.

But I am a natural gambler.

(I also think having a living M.D. is better than this madness, but whatever)

I think all of the people recommending 0 are assuming that there is a baddie in the pool and want it confirmed, which makes this a bit silly, ďhow manyĒ is more fun than answering a question we ďknowĒ the answer to.

But donít listen to me, the safe play is probably correct.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: EFHW on May 09, 2021, 12:04:20 am
I don't see 0 as the safe play. It's a gamble. If we get a "yes" we are golden. If we get a "no" it's about what we would have assumed anyway.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: mathdude on May 09, 2021, 12:21:02 am
I'm not going to guess 0. So everyone arguing for it can stop trying to say it's a good idea. I'll post the math behind my reasoning shortly I hope. My boy is sick and not sleeping well, so I'm trying to help him get back to sleep.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: mathdude on May 09, 2021, 02:51:39 am
Okay, let's see what kind of logical reasoning we can work into this situation.

People have been arguing that I should Guess 0, because if the answer is "yes", then there are 4 confirmed IC's.  But seriously, what are the chances of that actually happening?  This is RMM, and there are 1 or more likely 2 scum in the remaining 7 players of Reverse Timeline.  Add to that the fact that there could potentially be 2 scum factions (which would probably mean 2 or 3 out of 7 are scum) or there could be 3rd party players involved (again, I'd guess probably 2 or 3 out of 7 are non-town).  I'm going to mostly assume 2 non-town out of 7 for the remainder of this post.



As I said earlier, we need to sort of agree on how many scum (or non-town, actually) are most likely on my wagon (and we need the 2 most likely numbers).  If there are 2 total out of 7, I'd put the chances of 0 on wagon at less than 10%.  If a wagon is going to build quick, as it did, it's very possible scum would jump on it at some point, not wanting to be the last one to hammer a town, so they would have gotten on earlier.  And especially not expecting it to go to hammer so early, it's a free place to put a vote.  Mathematically, of 7 players and 5 town, there are 5 ways to pick 4 town and 35 ways to pick 4 random... 5/35=14%, but again, with the opportunity there, I think the chances of 4 town being there is much less.  (Also consider if there are 3 non-town total, chances of 4 town on my wagon is 1/35=3% chance!)

I think the chances of 1 non-town being on my wagon are 30-50%.  Again, assuming 2 scum who know each other, maybe they did go one on, one off, or maybe they didn't.  We don't really know.  We also didn't leave it long enough that they could watch, plan, coordinate (whether or not they have day chat), etc.

I also think the chances of 2 non-town on my wagon are about 30-50%.  I think 1 is mathematically more likely, but to find out there are 2 would not be unexpected.  Not expecting hammer to lock in their votes so soon, it's quite possible that 2 scum put their votes on, intending to take them off later if needed.  (Add to that that if there are 3+ non-town in the 7 remaining, the chances of 2 on my wagon goes up significantly, whether or not they know each other).

And finally, the chances of 3 or 4 non-town on my wagon are low, in my opinion - maybe around 10% again (though possibly less).  I don't see a reason to believe there is an overabundance of non-towns (it's not BM, and I know I'm town, so there are definitely town in the game).  Possible, yes.  Likely, no.  And as roles become known through the game, if there are a lot of 3rd party or you find out that there are 2 scum factions, then you could go back to the results of this and consider if maybe there were 3 on wagon.



If I Guess 0, the potential reward is great (4 IC's), but I give it 90+% chance that the answer is "no".  And what does that tell us?  That there's at least 1 on my wagon.  That's useless.  If there's 1, it's a shot in the dark (with role powers and with exiles) whether you look on or off my wagon next Reverse day/night - it will fully depend on how many are still alive at that time and what else is learned (if no one dies, 1 in 3 off wagon, 1 in 4 on wagon, again assuming 2 total, probably means looking off wagon).  But if there's 2, then you definitely want to look on wagon.

If I Guess 1, an answer of "yes" is not very helpful (as described above) - non-town is likely split 1-1 on and off wagon (depending on how other parts of the game go, I'd probably look off-wagon first, since there would likely be at least 1 in those 3).  But if the answer is "no", then you know there's either 0 or 2+ on wagon.  Maybe right now that's not helpful in some of your opinions.  But I'd strongly wager on there being 2+ in that case (and if as the game progresses, there does seem to be an indication that they could all be town, rather than 2+ non-town, then that polarizing distinction can be helpful then too!)

If I Guess 2, an answer of "yes" can be fairly helpful.  If one is scum and the other is 3rd party, it might be a bit harder to locate.  But if they're both scum, it would make it easier to pair them off.  But even if the answer is "no", that makes it fairly certain there is no more than 1 non-town on my wagon.  You can look elsewhere and leave that last 1 (if there even is 1, rather than 0) for later.  Out of 4 people on wagon, knowing that either 0 or 1 is non-town pretty much tells me you don't need to look here until LYLO or similar.  And if for some reason, there are 3+ non-town on my wagon, then again, it should become fairly obvious as the game progresses.



Summary:
If you want a 90% chance that my result tells us pretty much nothing useful ("there is at least 1 non-town in the 4 people on my wagon"), on the tiny chance that you get 4 conf-town, then I think you're pretty scummy as you want me to most likely waste my role.
If you're okay with either confirming 1 on my wagon, or using your reads and the progression of the game to distinguish between 0 or 2+ on my wagon, then picking 1 is the right choice.
If you can comfortably lump (0 or 1) non-town on my wagon, and leave the 4 of them mostly alone until near the end of the game if the answer is "no", but getting a "yes" to 2 would be super helpful, then picking 2 is the right choice.

I don't yet know what I want to pick.  I want the best odds for town in the game as a whole (that can be partly useful upon reveal, but potentially more useful as the game progresses).  We can't guarantee to get a "yes", no matter what we pick.  So how can we maximize the usefulness of a potential "no"?
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: mathdude on May 09, 2021, 03:08:49 am
And if you want to get even more complicated in things...

Look at each of the cases above (if I Guess 1 and the answer is "no"; if I Guess 1 and the answer is "yes", etc.) and find out what is likely to happen next!  Night actions tonight won't know the results yet.  But scum will likely suspect what the answer will already be (assuming there aren't 2 scum factions, and there are many or any 3rd parties).

If I Guess 1 and no scum are on my wagon, likely resulting in "no", they are sitting in great shape because you will think there are 2.  They night kill the other off-wagon person and they look pretty clear.
But if 2 scum are on my wagon, they also kill someone off wagon (or maybe even from Forward Timeline), to keep 2-2 on wagon.
These look too similar, and that's not ideal.

If I Guess 1 and 1 scum is on my wagon, they are pretty sure the answer will be "yes".  With 1 in 3 off-wagon being scum, and 1 in 4 on-wagon, they could either kill town on-wagon or from Forward Timeline to keep themselves fairly safe.
This isn't ideal either.

If I Guess 0, and there is no scum on my wagon, they likely lose (again, this is very unlikely scenario) as a voting block of 4 is powerful.  They would have to slowly kill off this block.  But if 1 or 2 is on my wagon, they pretty much have freedom to do whatever they want.

If I Guess 2, and they have 0 scum on my wagon, the answer will be "no", and they will be picked off pretty easily, since they are in the 3 off-wagon, regardless of what they do.  But if they have 1 on my wagon, and the answer still likely is "no", so the 1 of them off-wagon is in more danger since you'd likely look there first (getting a "no" that says there are either 0 or 1 on wagon) - so they likely kill one on-wagon to keep the balance fairly close.

If I Guess 2, and they do have 2 on my wagon, they know they are in danger when the "yes" comes up.  They can't touch any town on the wagon, or they are 2 out of 3.  So they have to kill either off-wagon or off-timeline.  But they will likely be found out easily enough if there are 2 on-wagon, just by voting patterns, etc.



I was thinking earlier that Guessing 1 was the better option (I'd rather have a potential "no" be from a polarizing 0 or 2+... rather than a potential "no" from a Guess of 2, where you can't distinguish whether it's 0 or 1 on-wagon).
But after looking at what position scum might be in (even tonight, not knowing what to do with their night kill, or potentially not having much choice without screwing themselves over), Guessing 2 actually looks pretty decent.

Looking for thoughts from anyone and everyone (not just the 7 Reverse Timeline).  How do you recommend I proceed and why?  I'll probably put the vote in around 2:30 or 3pm.  (Time to go to sleep now for a few hours).
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: Awaclus on May 09, 2021, 06:54:08 am


1) It's much more likely there's 0 scum on your wagon than 2+. It was an extremely towny wagon, the chances for 0 to be correct are definitely higher, not lower, than what the math suggests.

2) Knowing there's at least 1 scum in 4 is not anywhere near as useless as you're painting it as. We will have that information forever, and it will become more useful later in the game when some of those 4 players are dead and it's no longer a 1 in 4 chance but something better, maybe even a 1 in 1.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: mathdude on May 09, 2021, 07:10:36 am
A reminder that it's not "scum", it's "non-town".
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: Awaclus on May 09, 2021, 07:13:13 am
As far as I'm concerned, non-town is by default scum.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: Glooble on May 09, 2021, 07:29:27 am
Yeah Iím sorry but I completely agree with Awaclus here. I think 0 is the best bet.

HOWEVER to answer your question, I think the most likely number of non-town players on the wagon is 1, and 2 and 0 are probably equally likely after that.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: WestCoastDidds on May 09, 2021, 09:18:43 am
I think there is probably one non-town on your wagon.

If there were 2 scum in the time line and they were known to each other, I donít think theyíd pile up together so soon. Different story if they are not known to one another, but I still think itís probably one on and one off knowing how early in the day the exile went down.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: scolapasta on May 09, 2021, 10:00:16 am
Yeah Iím sorry but I completely agree with Awaclus here. I think 0 is the best bet.

HOWEVER to answer your question, I think the most likely number of non-town players on the wagon is 1, and 2 and 0 are probably equally likely after that.

This is what I was trying to say last night, I think it's more likely 1 and 2 and 0 are about the same. Which is why I like either 0 or 2, because that gets us more info with a NO answer (i.e. likely 1). and in fact with a zero guess, if the anser is yes we know exactly, if the answer is NO, we know at least 1, and mire likely 1.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: jotheonah on May 09, 2021, 11:37:15 am
oh man. I missed a lot. I have no idea. I will try to get an opinion before twilight ends.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: Galzria on May 09, 2021, 11:49:00 am
I'm here and caught up.

I think 2 is your best go, honestly.

If the answer comes back as "Yes", that's arguably as informative as guessing 0 and getting a "Yes". That's a huge up swing for us in knowing that there are 2-in-4 non-town on your wagon. If the answer comes back as "No" (which is possibly more likely), we can remove 2 (and almost certainly 3 & 4) as the number of non-town on your wagon.

That would mean that the number of non-town on your wagon is 0, or 1 - with 1 being the likely expected value in this case.

Guessing 1 and getting it confirmed does not give us any better odds than a random exile likely gives us. So it's safe to assume that there is LIKELY at least 1 scum in the 4 on your wagon. Certainly it's not a place that we would START our scum hunting from on future days.

BUT, if we find that the answer to the guess of 2 is YES, then it DOES inform our scum hunting on future days.

Basically, I think it is significantly more likely that there are 2 scum than 0 scum on your wagon, and thus a guess of 2 is far more valuable than a guess of 0 - with both guesses returning essentially the same information should the result come back "NO".
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: jotheonah on May 09, 2021, 11:57:57 am
I think you guess zero, even though I'm pretty sure the answer is 1 or 2. Guessing 1 and getting a no is the worst case scenario, because it tells us that there's either zero or two scum on the wagon. Guessing zero and getting a no is legitimately helpful. Guessing zero and getting a yes is astonishingly helpful, like basically solves the game helpful. Guessing 2 or more and getting a no is pretty useless, though getting a yes would be amazing.

Outside of trying to game the system though, that wagon was scummy af and I would be shocked if there were no scum on it. Glooble is a top scum read because his indignation over mathdude's "don't vote for me" post reads a bit inauthentic, and that's very much the sort of post scum would pounce on to get a misexile. But then the people who jumped on after also don't exactly scream town. But there's no way they're all scum, that would be way too obvious. Plus Awaclus is Awaclus, so the wagon hop with no explanation is pretty on brand.

So I think the scum on wagon are Glooble and maybe cube? I can't remember who the other vote was besides the self-hammer.

Honestly, maybe you go for 1 here after all. I mean, given how confident I am that the answer ISN'T zero maybe we can take that as a given and then get the answer to 1 vs more than one.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: jotheonah on May 09, 2021, 12:00:47 pm
I think it doesn't make sense to reveal (at least D1/2) are flavor names and/or QT partners. But I will say this: I have NO CLUE what my flavor has to do with the theme. I mean it's a name, but when I try to google it, I don't see any (at least immediate) connection to Memento.

I also decided to rewatch Memento after reading Jonah's post and my flavor name also has 0 connection to the film.
I guess Jonah is joth?

Heís Jo-The O-nah! I have said repeatedly that I think he should go by Joth IRL

It was supposed to be J-to the-Onah but I made what's turned out to be a really fateful typo
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: Awaclus on May 09, 2021, 12:08:38 pm
Basically, I think it is significantly more likely that there are 2 scum than 0 scum on your wagon, and thus a guess of 2 is far more valuable than a guess of 0 - with both guesses returning essentially the same information should the result come back "NO".

They don't return the same information. 2 coming back as "NO" tells us there's at most 1 scum, 0 coming back as "NO" tells us there's at least 1 scum. While we might expect both of those statements to be true, having them modconfirmed is a very substantial advantage over just assuming, because we can't count on assumptions being true (even when they actually are true).

Having "at most 1 scum" confirmed gives us ICs if the scum is killed, which is good, but having "at least 1 scum" confirmed gives us guilty children if the townies are killed, which is super good.

If we think it's safe to assume that there can't be more than 2 scum on the same timeline, then the information is almost the same regardless of what the result is (because then guessing 2 on-wagon is effectively the same as guessing 0 off-wagon) based on that assumption, but if it starts to look like it was a mistake to assume that, they're no longer the same information.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: Galzria on May 09, 2021, 12:08:58 pm
I think you guess zero, even though I'm pretty sure the answer is 1 or 2. Guessing 1 and getting a no is the worst case scenario, because it tells us that there's either zero or two scum on the wagon. Guessing zero and getting a no is legitimately helpful. Guessing zero and getting a yes is astonishingly helpful, like basically solves the game helpful. Guessing 2 or more and getting a no is pretty useless, though getting a yes would be amazing.

Outside of trying to game the system though, that wagon was scummy af and I would be shocked if there were no scum on it. Glooble is a top scum read because his indignation over mathdude's "don't vote for me" post reads a bit inauthentic, and that's very much the sort of post scum would pounce on to get a misexile. But then the people who jumped on after also don't exactly scream town. But there's no way they're all scum, that would be way too obvious. Plus Awaclus is Awaclus, so the wagon hop with no explanation is pretty on brand.

So I think the scum on wagon are Glooble and maybe cube? I can't remember who the other vote was besides the self-hammer.

Honestly, maybe you go for 1 here after all. I mean, given how confident I am that the answer ISN'T zero maybe we can take that as a given and then get the answer to 1 vs more than one.

See, it's like you start to make your way to logic, and then fail to get all the way there.

You start by saying "Guessing 1 and getting a NO would be the worst case scenario, because then we don't know if it's 0 or 2" - First off, knowing it's "0 or 2" isn't horrible, because we can use our reads to determine which we feel is more likely, and if at any point somebody from that group turns scum (especially possible if we're in multi-ball), then we know the answer is 2.

But put aside that it isn't a horrible result and just take your argument at face value. You then go on to talk your way down to a "Maybe you should go 1 because I'm confident it's not 0". Let's assume he goes 1 and gets a YES. I would argue THAT is the worst possible result. That tells us that 1-in-4 is scum. Whoop-de-doo. Go roll a dice. We're not doing any better than random with that knowledge. And it's ESSENTIALLY the same result as getting a NO from a 0 or 2 guess - except a 0 or 2 guess give us much BETTER information should the result come back YES.

So if you believe that the expected scum count on Math's wagon is greater than 0 (1 or 2), then I think the best possible guess is clearly 2.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: Awaclus on May 09, 2021, 12:09:58 pm
If we think it's safe to assume that there can't be more than 2 scum on the same timeline, then the information is almost the same regardless of what the result is (because then guessing 2 on-wagon is effectively the same as guessing 0 off-wagon) based on that assumption, but if it starts to look like it was a mistake to assume that, they're no longer the same information.

Actually this is not even true, we only had 3 people off-wagon.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: Galzria on May 09, 2021, 12:11:49 pm
Basically, I think it is significantly more likely that there are 2 scum than 0 scum on your wagon, and thus a guess of 2 is far more valuable than a guess of 0 - with both guesses returning essentially the same information should the result come back "NO".

They don't return the same information. 2 coming back as "NO" tells us there's at most 1 scum, 0 coming back as "NO" tells us there's at least 1 scum. While we might expect both of those statements to be true, having them modconfirmed is a very substantial advantage over just assuming, because we can't count on assumptions being true (even when they actually are true).

Having "at most 1 scum" confirmed gives us ICs if the scum is killed, which is good, but having "at least 1 scum" confirmed gives us guilty children if the townies are killed, which is super good.

If we think it's safe to assume that there can't be more than 2 scum on the same timeline, then the information is almost the same regardless of what the result is (because then guessing 2 on-wagon is effectively the same as guessing 0 off-wagon) based on that assumption, but if it starts to look like it was a mistake to assume that, they're no longer the same information.

"At Most 1 Scum" tells us that there is "At Least 1 scum" in the sub wagon that isn't on Math.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: Galzria on May 09, 2021, 12:12:40 pm
Basically, I think it is significantly more likely that there are 2 scum than 0 scum on your wagon, and thus a guess of 2 is far more valuable than a guess of 0 - with both guesses returning essentially the same information should the result come back "NO".

They don't return the same information. 2 coming back as "NO" tells us there's at most 1 scum, 0 coming back as "NO" tells us there's at least 1 scum. While we might expect both of those statements to be true, having them modconfirmed is a very substantial advantage over just assuming, because we can't count on assumptions being true (even when they actually are true).

Having "at most 1 scum" confirmed gives us ICs if the scum is killed, which is good, but having "at least 1 scum" confirmed gives us guilty children if the townies are killed, which is super good.

If we think it's safe to assume that there can't be more than 2 scum on the same timeline, then the information is almost the same regardless of what the result is (because then guessing 2 on-wagon is effectively the same as guessing 0 off-wagon) based on that assumption, but if it starts to look like it was a mistake to assume that, they're no longer the same information.

"At Most 1 Scum" tells us that there is "At Least 1 scum" in the sub wagon that isn't on Math.

Well, I guess that's assuming there's more than 1 scum in the timeline. Which I am.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: jotheonah on May 09, 2021, 12:13:02 pm
Ok, now I'm fully caught up.

The fact that mathdude asked (begged) MiX to vote for him, and also voted for himself is big here. We of course don't know MiX is town, but his vote is very not scummy given it was engineered by mathdude.

It's kind of frustrating that mathdude took the hammer away from scum here too. Basically this is a really weird wagon because it was engineered by town and that makes it super hard to make assumptions about it.

hypercube E-1'd pretty casually. That could be scummy.

I guess if we have a conservative scum team, we're looking at zero or 1 and if we have an aggressive scum team we're looking at 2 at most. I think we can pretty much rule out three.

Because if MiX is scum, he was the second one to vote mathdude and his partners wouldn't jump on like that, at least not if there were two on the wagon already. They might hammer, if it looked like the best move, but they wouldn't vote in the third or fourth position.

I guess where I'm at here is that scum on this wagon, if any, are either Glooble or hypercube. Glooble AND hypercube is possible but unlikely. Maybe someone who has a better grasp of cube's meta can tell me whether he would E-1 a wagon with a partner on it this quickly & early in the day. But, contradicting what I said before, I think this could absolutely be an all-town wagon. Because of the weirdness of it.

I admire the gumption of pro-actively using this power like mathdude did and if it pays off it will be epic. But there are definite downsides.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: Awaclus on May 09, 2021, 12:15:30 pm
Basically, I think it is significantly more likely that there are 2 scum than 0 scum on your wagon, and thus a guess of 2 is far more valuable than a guess of 0 - with both guesses returning essentially the same information should the result come back "NO".

They don't return the same information. 2 coming back as "NO" tells us there's at most 1 scum, 0 coming back as "NO" tells us there's at least 1 scum. While we might expect both of those statements to be true, having them modconfirmed is a very substantial advantage over just assuming, because we can't count on assumptions being true (even when they actually are true).

Having "at most 1 scum" confirmed gives us ICs if the scum is killed, which is good, but having "at least 1 scum" confirmed gives us guilty children if the townies are killed, which is super good.

If we think it's safe to assume that there can't be more than 2 scum on the same timeline, then the information is almost the same regardless of what the result is (because then guessing 2 on-wagon is effectively the same as guessing 0 off-wagon) based on that assumption, but if it starts to look like it was a mistake to assume that, they're no longer the same information.

"At Most 1 Scum" tells us that there is "At Least 1 scum" in the sub wagon that isn't on Math.

If we assume that there's at least 2 scum on the same timeline. On the other hand, "exactly 2 scum" tells us that there is "exactly 0 scum" off-wagon only if we assume that there's at most 2 scum on the same timeline. I don't feel that great about assuming we have exactly 2 scum on every timeline.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: Awaclus on May 09, 2021, 12:29:09 pm
I get the argument that guessing 0 and 2 return pretty similar results, and that mathematically it's more likely to draw both scum if you pick the group of 4 instead of the group of 3. However, I think the uncertainty of interpreting the results when you guess 2 is a more substantial downside.

Of course from my perspective, I also know I'm town and on-wagon so guessing 2 is actually still just trying to find 2 scum in a group of 3, and I feel like the average non-me non-math person on the wagon is somewhat townier than expected, so I can tell the upside isn't even there.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: EFHW on May 09, 2021, 12:30:23 pm
I know math isn't counting votes for guesses, but I like the arguments for 2.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: EFHW on May 09, 2021, 12:37:26 pm
24 minutes. Let's hope he's punctual!
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: mathdude on May 09, 2021, 01:08:30 pm
24 minutes. Let's hope he's punctual!

Twilight ends 3 hours from now. I'm caught up on reading. I'm glad there has finally been good discussion.

I'm going to put my boy down for a nap. I'll post again in probably an hour using laptop to summarize everything I've read and ask final questions. Then I'll probably post my final scum-to-chum and my final guess around 3pm (around an hour before deadline... I wil not be available to post much later than that).
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: Glooble on May 09, 2021, 01:32:16 pm
Glooble is a top scum read because his indignation over mathdude's "don't vote for me" post reads a bit inauthentic, and that's very much the sort of post scum would pounce on to get a misexile.

First off, dude, you know me, and you know how I respond to people trying to boss me around. Secondly, I was already voting for mathdude, so I 'm not sure what you mean by "pounce on".

Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: hypercube on May 09, 2021, 02:02:37 pm
I had a rough League match and am now day drunk so I'll trust mathdude to make the right decision (which is probably 1,)
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: jotheonah on May 09, 2021, 02:03:36 pm
Glooble is a top scum read because his indignation over mathdude's "don't vote for me" post reads a bit inauthentic, and that's very much the sort of post scum would pounce on to get a misexile.

First off, dude, you know me, and you know how I respond to people trying to boss me around. Secondly, I was already voting for mathdude, so I 'm not sure what you mean by "pounce on".

I mean you pounced on his scummy play to double down and try to turn your vote into a wagon.

It's not your fault -- mathdude set a trap for scum. You just happened to step in it. It happens.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: hypercube on May 09, 2021, 02:04:22 pm
Also, idk if anyone asked this but mathdude what's your read on Mix?
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: hypercube on May 09, 2021, 02:06:27 pm
Glooble is a top scum read because his indignation over mathdude's "don't vote for me" post reads a bit inauthentic, and that's very much the sort of post scum would pounce on to get a misexile.

First off, dude, you know me, and you know how I respond to people trying to boss me around. Secondly, I was already voting for mathdude, so I 'm not sure what you mean by "pounce on".

I mean you pounced on his scummy play to double down and try to turn your vote into a wagon.

It's not your fault -- mathdude set a trap for scum. You just happened to step in it. It happens.

Lol joth is certainly scum - mathdude set a trap for town (since scum knows mathdude's town they can tell the difference between flailing and bait)
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: Galzria on May 09, 2021, 02:13:39 pm
Glooble is a top scum read because his indignation over mathdude's "don't vote for me" post reads a bit inauthentic, and that's very much the sort of post scum would pounce on to get a misexile.

First off, dude, you know me, and you know how I respond to people trying to boss me around. Secondly, I was already voting for mathdude, so I 'm not sure what you mean by "pounce on".

I mean you pounced on his scummy play to double down and try to turn your vote into a wagon.

It's not your fault -- mathdude set a trap for scum. You just happened to step in it. It happens.

Lol joth is certainly scum - mathdude set a trap for town (since scum knows mathdude's town they can tell the difference between flailing and bait)

How do you know that scum knows Math is town? Is there only one set of scum? Thatís useful to know.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: Awaclus on May 09, 2021, 02:18:52 pm
I had a rough League match and am now day drunk so I'll trust mathdude to make the right decision (which is probably 1,)

1 is pretty clearly the worst decision. Its best outcome is only slightly better than the worst outcome of 0 or 2.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: Galzria on May 09, 2021, 02:20:54 pm
I had a rough League match and am now day drunk so I'll trust mathdude to make the right decision (which is probably 1,)

1 is pretty clearly the worst decision. Its best outcome is only slightly better than the worst outcome of 0 or 2.

This, we agree on.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: mathdude on May 09, 2021, 03:07:38 pm
Sorry for the delay.  My boy took forever to fall asleep, and I ended up falling asleep with him.  Trying to summarize all my thoughts now.  I'm pretty sure I'll be going with 2.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: mathdude on May 09, 2021, 03:48:16 pm
1st vote on me - a standing vote that I used to try and garner more votes - Glooble.

2nd vote on me - after I said I was mostly town-reading him, though he gave no explanation - Awaclus.

3rd vote on me - after I finally convinced him in QT to mostly go along with the plan, though he was very hesistant - MiX.

4th vote on me - nonchalantly putting me at E-1 and noting it as such - hyper

5th vote on me - hammer - from me



My QT with MiX:

I had shared with MiX part-way into the day that my only role power was when I died, but I stated that it was one ability if I died during the day and a different power if I died at night.  I gave no more information than that, as much as he tried to get some from me.  I was mildly scum-reading him by the time I shared this, and the "lie" (2nd part) was a back-up so he would not keep me alive during the day and kill me at night if he was scum.  I had said I wasn't sure which of the two abilities was better, but as we got towards starting a train on me, I told him I decided getting exiled was better and I would appreciate his help.

Even with somewhat of a reason for wanting to be self-killed (it helps town, I kept saying), he still didn't want to vote me.  He wanted me to full-claim (at one point, in QT, then later he said just full-claim and self-vote in game), and I said the role wouldn't be as helpful then.  Finally, I blackmailed him by saying I would strongly recommend town kill him next day and self-claim if I have to, and if he was town, that would mean 2 of us die and basically give scum the win - it was at this point, he finally relented and voted for me in game.

Only after I self-hammered and explained the role in thread did he ask what my power was if I was killed at night, and I revealed that it was all a ruse because I didn't trust him.

We have exchanged a few messages since then.  And even though I've said I still mildly scum-read him, and I would appreciate some trust-building, he has basically offered me nothing in return, causing me to trust him even less.  At this point, he'd be one of my top scum guesses.  But at the same time, I know I usually distrust him and his posting style, so I'll also acknowledge that it could just be that... unfortunately, I know that's not very helpful!

After explaining role in game, I told MiX I'm leaning towards guessing 1, with some explanation, and he casually said he agrees.  Nothing strong for or against or any recommendations - totally not what I would expect from MiX in QT.  And even though I've tried to engage in QT, he's still not saying much.



People commenting about what I should guess:

MiX - says he thinks 1 would be the most informative (I think this was after I said I was leaning that way already in QT).

hyper - says 1 is a low-risk plan, but 0 or 2 might be high enough reward to go for (not much help here).

scola (not Reverse) - nicely summarizes data, and options for guessing, but didn't give a recommendation.

Eddie - says 0 has a nice upside if the answer is "yes", but would tend to recommend 1.

MiX - confirms that 1 would be the most informative

Glooble - says 0 is definitely the best guess because of potential reward

[at this point, I clarify that we should figure out how many scum we think are most likely on my wagon]

[we also clarify that it's "non-town", not "scum" for the guess, and that the guess is exact number, not "at least"]

Awaclus - logically states that finding out 1 out of the 4 are scum means very little, since that's effectively not knowing anything (it's basic probability), and recommends guessing 0... also stating that guessing 2 does not seem as good as guessing 0.

asher (not Reverse) - adamantly says 0 is best, since getting a "no" on any other guess isn't helpful (which I disagree with!).

scola - with logic, states that 1 is the worst choice, since a "no" is less than helpful, and would rather choose 0 instead of 2.

Eddie - waffles between 0 and 1, calling 0 the "safe play" and saying it's probably the best.

EFHW (not Reverse) - like me, disagrees with a guess of 0, since even though a "yes" is great, it's unlikely, and a "no" is really unhelpful since we all assume it's at least 1 on the wagon anyway.

[I publicly state I'm not going to guess 0, give a lot of explanation, including what could happen with a "yes" or "no" for any guess from 0 to 2, and what scum might tend to do in each of these situations as well]

Awaclus - states there is much more likely 0 scum on my wagon rather than 2+ since it "looks like a townie wagon", also states that knowing there is 1 scum on wagon is not as useless as we've all been saying since it can be helpful towards the end of the game (and while I agree it *can*, I don't think the conditions where it might be helpful are very likely to happen, since scum can probably keep conditions away from ending up there).

Glooble - continues to recommend 0, and also states that there are most likely 1 scum on wagon (and out of 0 and 2, they are probably equally likely).

Didds (not Reverse) - states that if there are 2 scum who know each other, it's quite likely that one is on wagon and the other is off.

scola - strongly prefers a guess of 0 or 2, since a "no" from a guess of 1 is quite useless

Galz (not Reverse) - the first person, I believe, to recommend guessing 2, arguing that a "yes" here is basically as useful as a "yes" to 0 guess, and that even a "no" almost definitely means 0 or 1 on wagon, where you would almost definitely suspect 1 and getting that distinction with a guess of 1 is much less clear (since 0 still plays into the game).

joth (not Reverse) - says we should guess 0, then after some reasoning, ends up convincing himself that maybe 1 is better since he's almost confident there aren't zero.

Awaclus - counters Galz' reasoning that 2 is better than 0 to guess, saying that getting a result from 0 would likely be more helpful, but his logic is dependent on who dies and when (which scum can control to some extent, to try and prevent us from getting to a useful state).

Galz (not Reverse) - replies to Awaclus, stating that if we assume there are likely more than 0 on the wagon, then guessing 2 is much clearly more indicative, regardless whether we get a yes or no (but when we get a "no" to 0, it's quite unhelpful), so the overall means 2 is a better choice still.

(a little more from joth and Awaclus)

EFHW (not Reverse) - states that the arguments for 2 seem better.

hyper - says 1 is probably the right decision.

Awaclus - states again that 1 is clearly the worst decision for a guess.



Now for a final summary and guess...
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: mathdude on May 09, 2021, 03:59:06 pm
After reading all that, and based on when/how the votes happened, who seemed to be hiding stuff in the voting period, who seemed to be hiding stuff or trying to sway opinions during the past 24 hours... who do I scum-read?  I'm not saying my scum-reads are going to be right, but I will say that they're not going to be influenced by scum pushing things in their favour nearly as much as a D2 or D3 set of votes and discussions.

MiX - I feel that he's quite possibly scum, as he didn't want to help kill me when I said it was for the best (which seems odd, because a scum would want an easy mis-exile, but he may have felt I was trying to trap him?)

Eddie - I have been mildly scum-reading him since he joined, and was strongly scum-reading faust beforehand.  And Eddie's logic here seemed to be trying to keep things less than useful with this guess.  He's quite possibly scum.

Awaclus - like my reading of MiX, I often scum-read his typical posting style early in a game.  I don't like some of his arguments.  I don't like that he still prefers 0 over 2.  But it seems to be coming from a genuine place.  I think wanting me to guess 0 is something scum would want if there was 1 or 2 on my wagon (which is quite likely), but I'm going to say Awaclus is likely town.

Glooble - I town-read his posting (more so than my reading of MiX and Awaclus), but given the same logic and wanting 0, I'm going to put him in the same boat as Awaclus.  He's for a bad number in my opinion, but it seems like he's doing it genuinely trying to be helpful.

hyper - between a lack of useful information, not much reasoning, and being the E-1 so casually, I think it's very possible he's scum.  I'd put him as a 50/50, because I really don't know.

For non-Reverse players, it seems EFHW and Galz are being the most helpful in this discussion.  Maybe that's how they always are.  Maybe they were around and available and many other Forward timeline players just didn't care to be around much (I know, a few others were).  They could be scum (either, but unlikely both), if their logic helped protect teammates.  But I think it's more likely that they're both Town.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: mathdude on May 09, 2021, 04:01:05 pm
Ok, now I'm fully caught up.

The fact that mathdude asked (begged) MiX to vote for him, and also voted for himself is big here. We of course don't know MiX is town, but his vote is very not scummy given it was engineered by mathdude.

It's kind of frustrating that mathdude took the hammer away from scum here too. Basically this is a really weird wagon because it was engineered by town and that makes it super hard to make assumptions about it.

hypercube E-1'd pretty casually. That could be scummy.

I guess if we have a conservative scum team, we're looking at zero or 1 and if we have an aggressive scum team we're looking at 2 at most. I think we can pretty much rule out three.

Because if MiX is scum, he was the second one to vote mathdude and his partners wouldn't jump on like that, at least not if there were two on the wagon already. They might hammer, if it looked like the best move, but they wouldn't vote in the third or fourth position.

I guess where I'm at here is that scum on this wagon, if any, are either Glooble or hypercube. Glooble AND hypercube is possible but unlikely. Maybe someone who has a better grasp of cube's meta can tell me whether he would E-1 a wagon with a partner on it this quickly & early in the day. But, contradicting what I said before, I think this could absolutely be an all-town wagon. Because of the weirdness of it.

I admire the gumption of pro-actively using this power like mathdude did and if it pays off it will be epic. But there are definite downsides.

I know the weekend exile wasn't ideal with a 24-hour timeline, and I wish I could have let scum hammer me (for a 5/2 split instead of 4/3).  But I also didn't want the wagon to fizzle out, and just hammered to make sure my role was used.  Sorry, but hopefully it all works out.

Also, thanks - I sure hope this pays off epically too!  I admit there are definitely potential downsides.  But I hope we've figured out where to go here - regardless of a "yes" or a "no".
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: mathdude on May 09, 2021, 04:04:08 pm
Vote Count 1.Final:

mathdude (5): Glooble, Awaclus, MiX, hypercube, mathdude
MiX (1): PPS
Eddie (1): chairs
PPS (1): Eddie

Not Voting (8): EFHW, WCD, scolapasta, Joth, Galzria, Ashersky, gkrieg, Dylan

With 8 alive on the ACTIVE TIMELINE, it took 5 to Exile.

There is a Twilight period starting now, and ending in 24 hours - That is Sunday, May 9th at 4:05pm Forum Time.
No votes may be changed during the Twilight Period.

On wagon - Glooble, Awaclus, MiX, hypercube
Off wagon - pps, chairs, Eddie

My guess for scum-to-chum:
Eddie (scummiest)
MiX
hyper
(chairs and pps - no idea!)
Awaclus
Glooble (towniest)

I hope what I've posted is helpful.  Best of luck town.  I'll watch from speccy!  Here's hoping for a "yes", but even if it's "no", I hope you can figure out which of the other numbers it is quickly enough!

Guess: 2

/mathdude out
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: Galzria on May 09, 2021, 04:12:45 pm
I know we were both scum last game - but I stand by what I said:

How anybody can read you as scum is beyond me. 😋

Thanks Math! 🤞 Hope for that YES!
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: Uncleeurope on May 09, 2021, 04:25:06 pm
Vote Count 1.Final:

mathdude (5): Glooble, Awaclus, MiX, hypercube, mathdude
MiX (1): PPS
Eddie (1): chairs
PPS (1): Eddie

Not Voting (8): EFHW, WCD, scolapasta, Joth, Galzria, Ashersky, gkrieg, Dylan

With 8 alive on the ACTIVE TIMELINE, it took 5 to Exile.

There is a Twilight period starting now, and ending in 24 hours - That is Sunday, May 9th at 4:05pm Forum Time.
No votes may be changed during the Twilight Period.

On wagon - Glooble, Awaclus, MiX, hypercube
Off wagon - pps, chairs, Eddie

My guess for scum-to-chum:
Eddie (scummiest)
MiX
hyper
(chairs and pps - no idea!)
Awaclus
Glooble (towniest)

I hope what I've posted is helpful.  Best of luck town.  I'll watch from speccy!  Here's hoping for a "yes", but even if it's "no", I hope you can figure out which of the other numbers it is quickly enough!

Guess: 2

/mathdude out

Well that was underwhelming.

And also counter-intuitive.

If Iím bad, why did you say 2 people on the wagon are bad?
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: Swowl on May 09, 2021, 04:32:59 pm
THREAD LOCKED!
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: Swowl on May 09, 2021, 04:51:15 pm
Vote Count 1.Final.Final:

mathdude (5): Glooble, Awaclus, MiX, hypercube, mathdude
MiX (1): PPS
Eddie (1): chairs
PPS (1): Eddie

Not Voting (8): EFHW, WCD, scolapasta, Joth, Galzria, Ashersky, gkrieg, Dylan
With 8 alive on the ACTIVE TIMELINE, it took 5 to Exile.

Night 1 begins now and ends on Tuesday, May 11th at 4:55pm Forum Time. Please submit night actions within 36 hours from now.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: Swowl on May 09, 2021, 04:51:41 pm
mathdude has been exiled! They were Dodd, the Town Aligned Modified Vengeful Cop. They belonged to the REVERSE TIMELINE.

Guess: 2

MOD Response: NO
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Night 1
Post by: Swowl on May 11, 2021, 04:34:13 pm
All around the town, people start to wake from a slumber... while others fall into one.
The one's awakening look around at their colorful surroundings, confused about where they are, how they got there, and what in the hell is going on.
The townspeople converge in the middle of a hotel lobby where there lays a dead body...
"What the hell is going on here?"
   "I don't know! But we need to find out who is responsible for this!"
"You think it is one of us??"
   "I don't know! I don't even know how I got here! What the hell is going on...."



gkreig has been killed! They were Burt, the Town Aligned Tracker. They belonged to the FORWARD TIMELINE
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Night 1
Post by: Swowl on May 11, 2021, 04:34:21 pm
Vote Count 2.0:

Not Voting (14):EFHW, WCD, Joth, Ashersky, Dylan, Galzria, scolapasta, MiX, Eddie, chairs, hypercube, Glooble, PPS, Awaclus

With 7 alive on the ACTIVE TIMELINE, it takes 4 to Exile.
Day 2 starts now and ends Tuesday, May 18th at 4:55pm Forum Time.

Today the active timeline is the FORWARD TIMELINE We will remain in the FORWARD TIMELINE until the start of Day 3.
Only players from the currently active timeline may vote, or be voted for.

*MOD has to go to work. Game is opening slightly early so it is not very late. Please note the deadline is still 7 IRL days from what should of been the start of Day 2.*

THREAD UNLOCKED!
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: WestCoastDidds on May 11, 2021, 04:44:03 pm
Dude! I didnít quite realize gkrieg was even in this game.

Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: Glooble on May 11, 2021, 05:11:59 pm
So this is sorta day 2, but sorta day 1 part 2, which is sorta awkward. Should we talk about mathdude's result, or focus on people we can actually exile today?

Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: Glooble on May 11, 2021, 05:14:17 pm
Then of course there's the obligatory "Only one nightkill, guess it isn't multiball" "unless someone got doctored or both scum targeted the same person" 'Okay, the doctoring I'll give you but two scums independently targeting gkrieg seems like a huge stretch given that he didn't do all that much day one" conversation.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: MiX on May 11, 2021, 05:17:04 pm
So this is sorta day 2, but sorta day 1 part 2, which is sorta awkward. Should we talk about mathdude's result, or focus on people we can actually exile today?

The result is about as worse as you could get, at least without any flips.

Hmm...I remember gkrieg talking about faust's plan, but nothing else. And barely anyone in active timeline did anything, in fact most of the italic voters were reverse anyway.

So, how are we going to vote now? I mean, active timeline barely got to do anything yesterday because math took over, and timelines being revealed means italic voting doesn't matter...so what do reverse people do?

Then of course there's the obligatory "Only one nightkill, guess it isn't multiball" "unless someone got doctored or both scum targeted the same person" 'Okay, the doctoring I'll give you but two scums independently targeting gkrieg seems like a huge stretch given that he didn't do all that much day one" conversation.

I'm glad you can do all that in 1 post. Usually it takes 2 people to get that through.

Dude! I didnít quite realize gkrieg was even in this game.

Townslip? I'll take it.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: chairs on May 11, 2021, 06:33:47 pm
Then of course there's the obligatory "Only one nightkill, guess it isn't multiball" "unless someone got doctored or both scum targeted the same person" 'Okay, the doctoring I'll give you but two scums independently targeting gkrieg seems like a huge stretch given that he didn't do all that much day one" conversation.

Alternately, only one scum (team) per timeline, and only scum on the active timeline can kill.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: Glooble on May 11, 2021, 07:16:24 pm
Then of course there's the obligatory "Only one nightkill, guess it isn't multiball" "unless someone got doctored or both scum targeted the same person" 'Okay, the doctoring I'll give you but two scums independently targeting gkrieg seems like a huge stretch given that he didn't do all that much day one" conversation.

Alternately, only one scum (team) per timeline, and only scum on the active timeline can kill.

Iím not sure how it would be possible for either team to win in that scenario. Timeline switching shenanigans I guess.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: ashersky on May 11, 2021, 07:43:32 pm
I'll put it down officially: that was definitely a terrible use of mathdude's power and it was a complete waste of time.

We know that exactly 0, 1, 3, or 4 of the following set of players is non-town: Glooble, Awaclus, MiX, hypercube, mathdude

We got a mathdude, flip, so now we know that exactly 0, 1, 3, or 4 of the following set of players is non-town: Glooble, Awaclus, MiX, hypercube

I mean...how is that useful in any meaningful way?

The argument for 0 was that we at least removed the single option that was different, in that it assured us of something, a guarantee that mafia was in the set.  We don't even have that.

I guess the argument was betting on 2 was the best chance at a big payout?  Like various odds at the craps table?  Man, that didn't work out.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: ashersky on May 11, 2021, 07:44:23 pm
Does someone want to update the list of timeline players?

I guess we could vote them all to ensure switching shenanigans didn't occur.  Or better yet, vote for all the opposite timeline players to ensure no switching occurred.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: Uncleeurope on May 11, 2021, 07:59:07 pm
Yeah, 2 was a bit... Optimistic.

I think the goal was that now we "know" (by attempting to Meta a set-up, which is terrifying) that PPS/Me/Chairs has a bad guy in it.

Which is great for me.

Not so much for anyone else.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: Uncleeurope on May 11, 2021, 08:03:47 pm
I'm mainly just upset that I had put M.D. into the MiC category, and now I can't use that.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: jotheonah on May 11, 2021, 09:14:28 pm
So, how are we going to vote now? I mean, active timeline barely got to do anything yesterday because math took over, and timelines being revealed means italic voting doesn't matter...so what do reverse people do?

We're going to play mafia. Re-read, look at mathdude and gkrieg's interactions with people in this timeline, etc. Hope we find something.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: pingpongsam on May 11, 2021, 09:32:35 pm
I was developing the opinion late yesterday that proponents of voting 2 were scummy. I was just flabbergasted that mathdude was already the biggest proponent without much encouraging towards it.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: pingpongsam on May 11, 2021, 09:37:56 pm
Right, so after a quick rad o o even thought 2 was a good idea besides mathdude
Vote: Galzria
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: pingpongsam on May 11, 2021, 09:39:14 pm
Right, so after a quick reread of who even thought 2 was a good idea besides mathdude
Vote: Galzria
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: scolapasta on May 11, 2021, 10:08:02 pm
Does someone want to update the list of timeline players?

I guess we could vote them all to ensure switching shenanigans didn't occur.  Or better yet, vote for all the opposite timeline players to ensure no switching occurred.

I was thinking about this as well, and think it's seems more likely that scum would want to hide timeline shifting.

So I'll willing to start with:

Vote: pingpongsam

Vote: galzria

Assuming I'm not listed as voting next count, that should clear any switching of those two.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: scolapasta on May 11, 2021, 10:10:06 pm
I was developing the opinion late yesterday that proponents of voting 2 were scummy. I was just flabbergasted that mathdude was already the biggest proponent without much encouraging towards it.

While I was on the ZERO crew, I do think that 2 was better than 1 (Because 3 and 4 or scum on the math wagon was unlikely enough that it'll be worth starting with off wagon as suspects).

But's that a tomorrow problem. Let's solve D2 first.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: EFHW on May 11, 2021, 10:38:12 pm
We should exile off-wagon.

Yeah, 2 was a bit... Optimistic.

I think the goal was that now we "know" (by attempting to Meta a set-up, which is terrifying) that PPS/Me/Chairs has a bad guy in it.

Which is great for me.

Not so much for anyone else.

Great for you how?
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: ashersky on May 11, 2021, 10:57:34 pm
We should exile off-wagon.

Isn't this the only option?  All the on-wagon players are in the wrong timeline...

Unless you know something I don't?  Mafiaslip?
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: ashersky on May 11, 2021, 10:58:49 pm
Yeah, 2 was a bit... Optimistic.

I think the goal was that now we "know" (by attempting to Meta a set-up, which is terrifying) that PPS/Me/Chairs has a bad guy in it.

Which is great for me.

Not so much for anyone else.

How?  None of you is in the set of five.  The question/answer gave us zero actual information about off-wagon players, or about other timeline players.

It's a big diversion, basically.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: ashersky on May 11, 2021, 10:59:45 pm
Also, like, 3 mafia is fine, and could be on wagon.  On purpose, even.

Anyway, can we get a list of whomever is playing Day 2?
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: ashersky on May 11, 2021, 11:32:46 pm
So if we think of this as Day 1, Game 2, we're going to be trying to figure out stuff from a new set of players.  Reads formed during Day 1, Game 1 are useless given we can't vote for any of those players.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: ashersky on May 11, 2021, 11:34:49 pm
What we do know, and again, useless today, is that one of:

{Glooble, Awaclus, MiX, hypercube, PPS, chairs, Eddie} killed gkrieg last night.

gkrieg's lack of interactions (and really, all non-active players' lack of interactions moving forward) make it hard to try to figure out who in this timeline may have had a hand in that decision, if any.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: ashersky on May 11, 2021, 11:36:15 pm
This should be today's game's players, right?

EFHW, WCD, scolapasta, Joth, Galzria, Ashersky, Dylan
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: EFHW on May 11, 2021, 11:38:11 pm
We should exile off-wagon.

Isn't this the only option?  All the on-wagon players are in the wrong timeline...

Unless you know something I don't?  Mafiaslip?
Shoot, it's not an option at all today. Forgot about that.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: ashersky on May 11, 2021, 11:39:17 pm
gkrieg posted a total of 4 times during the game:

I think the italics plan by faust is a good one. Obviously overtly helpful faust is scum faust, so vote: faust.

I also don't know if not timeline claiming is a good thing. Not just for the targeting reasons that have been mentioned, but because we will have at least partially timeline claimed by the end of the day when the people from the current timeline vote for the person who has been hammered by italics votes. Not sure if it is good to let some people be unclaimed from a timeline while others get to not be timeline claimed.


I think the italics plan by faust is a good one. Obviously overtly helpful faust is scum faust, so vote: faust.

I also don't know if not timeline claiming is a good thing. Not just for the targeting reasons that have been mentioned, but because we will have at least partially timeline claimed by the end of the day when the people from the current timeline vote for the person who has been hammered by italics votes. Not sure if it is good to let some people be unclaimed from a timeline while others get to not be timeline claimed.
The italics plan only works if timelines are unknown.

I'm saying that we are all going to have to vote at the end of the day, which will show who is with what timeline anyway.


Not sure if it is good to let some people be unclaimed from a timeline while others get to not be timeline claimed.

I think I know what you're trying to say but you didn't actually say that with those words, right?

Yes, you are correct. I'm saying letting people pick whether to claim their timeline is a bad idea.


I am extremely frustrated and annoyed at mathdude's play.

Agreed. There is really nothing wrong with having a discussion to the merits of claiming before he just does it for people.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: ashersky on May 11, 2021, 11:40:19 pm
All setup, timeline, plan talk.  Nothing there to make me think the gkrieg choice was anything but just taking out someone from the unknown pool who is strong.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: scolapasta on May 12, 2021, 12:03:27 am
So if we think of this as Day 1, Game 2, we're going to be trying to figure out stuff from a new set of players.  Reads formed during Day 1, Game 1 are useless given we can't vote for any of those players.

Non active people did post D1 and we can make reads off those posts, no? It's not fully a D1, Game 2, only for voting purposes.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: ashersky on May 12, 2021, 12:13:03 am
So if we think of this as Day 1, Game 2, we're going to be trying to figure out stuff from a new set of players.  Reads formed during Day 1, Game 1 are useless given we can't vote for any of those players.

Non active people did post D1 and we can make reads off those posts, no? It's not fully a D1, Game 2, only for voting purposes.

I mean, some did, sort of.  But I just posted of all gkrieg, for example.  I wasn't very active.  Galz did nothing.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: Uncleeurope on May 12, 2021, 12:14:12 am
Yeah, 2 was a bit... Optimistic.

I think the goal was that now we "know" (by attempting to Meta a set-up, which is terrifying) that PPS/Me/Chairs has a bad guy in it.

Which is great for me.

Not so much for anyone else.

How?  None of you is in the set of five.  The question/answer gave us zero actual information about off-wagon players, or about other timeline players.

It's a big diversion, basically.

People have been talking like there are 2 scum per timeline, so that would mean an off has to be bad.

I donít necessarily buy into the 2-per thing, but there ya have it.

I agree with you, though, itís pretty much nothing.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: Swowl on May 12, 2021, 03:39:43 am
Vote Count 2.1:

Galzria (1): scolapasta
Not Voting (13):EFHW, WCD, Joth, Ashersky, Dylan, Galzria, MiX, Eddie, chairs, hypercube, Glooble, PPS, Awaclus

With 7 alive on the ACTIVE TIMELINE, it takes 4 to Exile.
Day 2 starts now and ends Tuesday, May 18th at 4:55pm Forum Time.

Today the active timeline is the FORWARD TIMELINE We will remain in the FORWARD TIMELINE until the start of Day 3.
Only players from the currently active timeline may vote, or be voted for.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: WestCoastDidds on May 12, 2021, 08:24:43 am
This should be today's game's players, right?

EFHW, WCD, scolapasta, Joth, Galzria, Ashersky, Dylan

Yes, that tracks with what I had.

Taking gkrieg out of the mix will make it harder for us to exile scum, if we assume there are two. I hadnít really grasped until the start of the day that scum from the other time line could could people in ours.

So, we need to see if the active t/l people really can vote and be voted for?

Vote: Dylan
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: hypercube on May 12, 2021, 08:38:30 am
I agree that the scum are more likely to be in the people who pushed for guessing 2 or more generally are treating mathdude's wagon as a scum trap. Basically the train of thought "someone is acting weird and confrontational -> they're likely scum" is townier to me than "someone is acting weird and confrontational -> they're likely town doing this on purpose", because town is looking out for scum and scum is looking out for town with some plan that endangers their wincon.

So I'd vote: joth or vote: galzria if I could today.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: hypercube on May 12, 2021, 08:50:00 am
Scum choosing to kill on the forward timeline (assuming that's a choice and not forced by the setup) is interesting to me since deactivating a N1 PR is an obvious advantage to choosing to kill on the reverse timeline. It could mean that town is somehow close to getting useful information out of mathdude's guess.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: chairs on May 12, 2021, 09:16:03 am
I personally would've killed Eddie
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: Glooble on May 12, 2021, 09:44:13 am
ashersky, do you really genuinely believe 1. that Swowl would make the setup with three scum in one timeline and 2. that all three scum would get on the same wagon?

I do not.

I think that no more than 2 scum per timeline is a relatively safe assumption. And if we assume that, then there is definitely at least one scum in [pps, chairs, Eddie] and no more than one scum in [me, MiX, hypercube, Awaclus], which is a pretty useful place to start tomorrow. And if I were scum, I would have killed on the forward timeline in order to avoid making town's poe in reverse even better. But that's just me.

One thing that does throw off this line of reasoning is the possibility of a non-scum third party, like a jester. But I do think ash is either wrong about the amount of information mathdude's power gave us or intentionally misrepresenting it, and since ash is typically better at this game than I am, I am leaning towards the latter.

So, vote: ashersky I guess. I can't actually vote, of course. But if I had a vote, that's where it would be right now.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: Glooble on May 12, 2021, 10:09:27 am
Just to clarify- I'm not saying ash is scum because we disagree on this. I'm realizing that's probably how I came off. I do think that since as people keep dying in the RT we'll start to zero in on scum now that we've separated them into two buckets, it benefits scum to encourage the town to focus on super unlikely fringe scenarios (like 3 scum on a wagon) rather than trying to think about the most likely scenarios. And if I were a well-respected player with a reputation for being good at this kind of analysis, like ash, I would probably throw my weight behind trying to get people to consider these far-flung possibilities now, rather than after we've cornered someone when scum are scrambling for a way out of the P.O.E., cause it looks a lot less suspicious now.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: scolapasta on May 12, 2021, 10:50:03 am
OK, my double vote idea was pointless if I some how mistakenly chose a Forward as my second vote (which I did). Not sure why I thought Galz was reverse.

So I'll try this again for the next vote count:

Vote: pingpongsam

Vote: MiX

while I think more on a better, real vote. I do think other Forwards should join me and similarly vote 2 (other) Reversers.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: scolapasta on May 12, 2021, 10:54:24 am
I generally agree with the thought that 2 per timeline is a relatively safe assumption and a good place to start. We should of course question it until proven correctly, but it does give us info.

Also, the thought that the way mathdude was acting, it is easy to consider that there were at least two town votes and so that also would help attack the 3+ non town on his wagon.

And I like gloobie's thoughts on, if it were 2, then it seems reasonable that scum would kill a forward because they were worried about giving us better PoE. It's a great point, that independent of that, killing a Reversers would have been better in case they hit a valuable PR. Especially given all the QTs, because that player wouldn't have to reveal immediately to the main thread, but could have to their QT partner.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: EFHW on May 12, 2021, 11:18:25 am
I have a question for MiX - I know he's reverse timeline, but I want to ask while things are fresh.

Why did you resist mathdude's plan? What specifically were your worries, or what scum narrative did you foresee?
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: scolapasta on May 12, 2021, 11:20:52 am
I have a question for MiX - I know he's reverse timeline, but I want to ask while things are fresh.

Why did you resist mathdude's plan? What specifically were your worries, or what scum narrative did you foresee?

Right. D1 I was very focused on hearing mathdude's side, since he was being exiled, but we should get MiX's side too. Of course there slightly less urgency - as if he dies, it doesn't matter any more. :)
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: MiX on May 12, 2021, 11:22:52 am
I have a question for MiX - I know he's reverse timeline, but I want to ask while things are fresh.

Why did you resist mathdude's plan? What specifically were your worries, or what scum narrative did you foresee?

I'm not a fan of town suiciding, and given I didn't know math's power, I was skeptical that the best way of using it was by being exiled. He also said something happened if he died at night, so I thought that was a reward, and being exiled was a consolation prize. Also, him suggesting that was super townie, and I didn't want town to die like that.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: Dylan32 on May 12, 2021, 11:46:49 am
To rule out switching,
Vote: Chairs
Vote: Eddie
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: Dylan32 on May 12, 2021, 11:52:23 am
gkrieg being eliminated is a bummer, because I felt pretty good about him being town.

I'm really struggling to keep straight who was on which timeline to even know who I should be looking at right now.

I am a bit worried that the people who are pushing the whole 2 scum on each timeline are actually scum pushing us away from whatever the setup actually is. Unless someone has more concrete evidence, I don't remember seeing anything that suggests that other than someone speculating that it might be that, and it feels like a lot of play yesterday came from that assumption.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: ashersky on May 12, 2021, 12:02:52 pm
I agree that the two mafia per timeline thing is super terribad and anti-town.  Itís also insulting to the mod.  This is a 16-player setup.  To argue that only four non-town is somehow balanced is yucky. 

I could easily see a mafia team purposely voting together as a tactic. 

I could easily see mafia pressing for an exact number attempt instead of just confirming non-town on wagon as a defensive play.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: ashersky on May 12, 2021, 12:04:05 pm
Why double votes to check switching?  Shouldnít it be one vote at a time?  What if both switched?  You wouldnít know if the first one counter.

vote: MiX to rule him out.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: scolapasta on May 12, 2021, 12:13:34 pm
Why double votes to check switching?  Shouldnít it be one vote at a time?  What if both switched?  You wouldnít know if the first one counter.

vote: MiX to rule him out.

If neither switched no vote won't show up (or change, since now I'm on galz; I should've unvoted first, but it shouldn't really make a difference) and we can quickly confirm 2 non switchers. If vote 1 switched, but not vote 2, we also confirm that with the double vote. Only if the the vote shows up for the Vote 2 does it matter -  that would mean either only vote 2 switched or both, but then we can just check 1 separately. Doing 2 at a time is just more efficient, until (unless) we confirm that any switcher exists.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: MiX on May 12, 2021, 12:17:22 pm
Why double votes to check switching?  Shouldnít it be one vote at a time?  What if both switched?  You wouldnít know if the first one counter.

vote: MiX to rule him out.

If neither switched no vote won't show up (or change, since now I'm on galz; I should've unvoted first, but it shouldn't really make a difference) and we can quickly confirm 2 non switchers. If vote 1 switched, but not vote 2, we also confirm that with the double vote. Only if the the vote shows up for the Vote 2 does it matter -  that would mean either only vote 2 switched or both, but then we can just check 1 separately. Doing 2 at a time is just more efficient, until (unless) we confirm that any switcher exists.

By that logic, you should vote everyone in reverse: the most likely scenario is no one changed, given people flip with their timeline.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: Glooble on May 12, 2021, 12:24:39 pm
More than 2 scum in a timeline is borderline impossible for town. You have to vote unanimously to exile anyone and if you misexile once and then scum succeeds on a nightkill town just loses. There is no way that's the setup. I'm sorry that's just math.

Only one scum in a timeline is the opposite problem, it's virtually impossible for scum to win.

If the setup is balanced, there are two scum per timeline. Unless it's multiball or we have neutral third parties of some sort. Which the "non-town" wording of math's power would lend support to.

Still, I think it's fine to start with the assumption of two scum per timeline.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: MiX on May 12, 2021, 12:26:22 pm
More than 2 scum in a timeline is borderline impossible for town. You have to vote unanimously to exile anyone and if you misexile once and then scum succeeds on a nightkill town just loses. There is no way that's the setup. I'm sorry that's just math.

Only one scum in a timeline is the opposite problem, it's virtually impossible for scum to win.

If the setup is balanced, there are two scum per timeline. Unless it's multiball or we have neutral third parties of some sort. Which the "non-town" wording of math's power would lend support to.

Still, I think it's fine to start with the assumption of two scum per timeline.

3 and 1 scum in a timeline works if we converge timelines. This seems to go in line with timelines not being guaranteed to swap back and forth: they'll just stop eventually.

Other than that, I think you're right.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: scolapasta on May 12, 2021, 01:04:36 pm
Why double votes to check switching?  Shouldnít it be one vote at a time?  What if both switched?  You wouldnít know if the first one counter.

vote: MiX to rule him out.

If neither switched no vote won't show up (or change, since now I'm on galz; I should've unvoted first, but it shouldn't really make a difference) and we can quickly confirm 2 non switchers. If vote 1 switched, but not vote 2, we also confirm that with the double vote. Only if the the vote shows up for the Vote 2 does it matter -  that would mean either only vote 2 switched or both, but then we can just check 1 separately. Doing 2 at a time is just more efficient, until (unless) we confirm that any switcher exists.

By that logic, you should vote everyone in reverse: the most likely scenario is no one changed, given people flip with their timeline.

Good point:


Unvote
Vote: gloobie
Vote: MiX
Vote: Eddie
Vote: chairs
Vote: hypercube
Vote: PPS
Vote: Awaclus


Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: jotheonah on May 12, 2021, 03:14:04 pm
I agree that the two mafia per timeline thing is super terribad and anti-town.  Itís also insulting to the mod.  This is a 16-player setup.  To argue that only four non-town is somehow balanced is yucky. 

You yourself said that this is essentially two games of mafia interlocked with each other. Why is it such a stretch to think that scum would be equally represented in the two games?
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: Swowl on May 12, 2021, 03:16:46 pm
Vote Count 2.2:

Dylan32 (1): WCD
Not Voting (13): EFHW, Joth, Ashersky, Dylan, Galzria, MiX, Eddie, chairs, hypercube, Glooble, PPS, Awaclus, scolapasta

With 7 alive on the ACTIVE TIMELINE, it takes 4 to Exile.
Day 2 starts now and ends Tuesday, May 18th at 4:55pm Forum Time.

Today the active timeline is the FORWARD TIMELINE We will remain in the FORWARD TIMELINE until the start of Day 3.
Only players from the currently active timeline may vote, or be voted for.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: jotheonah on May 12, 2021, 03:16:53 pm
Honestly, ash's comment really rubs me the wrong way. In addition to being wrong, it's combative and AtE.

vote: ash
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: jotheonah on May 12, 2021, 03:22:43 pm
I'll put it down officially: that was definitely a terrible use of mathdude's power and it was a complete waste of time.

We know that exactly 0, 1, 3, or 4 of the following set of players is non-town: Glooble, Awaclus, MiX, hypercube, mathdude

We got a mathdude, flip, so now we know that exactly 0, 1, 3, or 4 of the following set of players is non-town: Glooble, Awaclus, MiX, hypercube

I mean...how is that useful in any meaningful way?

The argument for 0 was that we at least removed the single option that was different, in that it assured us of something, a guarantee that mafia was in the set.  We don't even have that.

I guess the argument was betting on 2 was the best chance at a big payout?  Like various odds at the craps table?  Man, that didn't work out.

You can really read this as scum actually being worried about the info we gained from math's power and rushing in first thing in the day to throw smoke up and discredit it.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: WestCoastDidds on May 12, 2021, 03:33:18 pm
Vote Count 2.2:

Galzria (1): WCD
Not Voting (13): EFHW, Joth, Ashersky, Dylan, Galzria, MiX, Eddie, chairs, hypercube, Glooble, PPS, Awaclus, scolapasta

With 7 alive on the ACTIVE TIMELINE, it takes 4 to Exile.
Day 2 starts now and ends Tuesday, May 18th at 4:55pm Forum Time.

Today the active timeline is the FORWARD TIMELINE We will remain in the FORWARD TIMELINE until the start of Day 3.
Only players from the currently active timeline may vote, or be voted for.


So, we need to see if the active t/l people really can vote and be voted for?

Vote: Dylan

Swowl, just double checking is your VC correct?
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: scolapasta on May 12, 2021, 03:34:06 pm
So, we need to see if the active t/l people really can vote and be voted for?

Vote: Dylan


Vote Count 2.2:

Galzria (1): WCD
...


Swowl, is this a typo?
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: scolapasta on May 12, 2021, 03:34:57 pm
Ha! We could that at the same time! :)
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: WestCoastDidds on May 12, 2021, 03:50:13 pm
Jinx!
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: Glooble on May 12, 2021, 04:01:19 pm
I'll put it down officially: that was definitely a terrible use of mathdude's power and it was a complete waste of time.

We know that exactly 0, 1, 3, or 4 of the following set of players is non-town: Glooble, Awaclus, MiX, hypercube, mathdude

We got a mathdude, flip, so now we know that exactly 0, 1, 3, or 4 of the following set of players is non-town: Glooble, Awaclus, MiX, hypercube

I mean...how is that useful in any meaningful way?

The argument for 0 was that we at least removed the single option that was different, in that it assured us of something, a guarantee that mafia was in the set.  We don't even have that.

I guess the argument was betting on 2 was the best chance at a big payout?  Like various odds at the craps table?  Man, that didn't work out.

You can really read this as scum actually being worried about the info we gained from math's power and rushing in first thing in the day to throw smoke up and discredit it.

That's what I was trying to say. Thank you for saying it in a clearer way.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: Swowl on May 12, 2021, 05:18:54 pm
Vote Count 2.2 has been corrected.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: WestCoastDidds on May 12, 2021, 06:14:00 pm
Thanks, dude! Next up,

Vote: Scola
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: chairs on May 12, 2021, 06:41:13 pm
This setup just keeps devolving me into setup theory, like "maybe scum can only kill people from the inactive timeline" type stuff.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: ashersky on May 12, 2021, 10:17:40 pm
joth and Glooble are the ones that seem scared, flailing, and doing their very best to convince town of a "fact" that is definitely just a random, terrible opinion.

Hey, town, it's clear that there MUST be this X factor in the game because any other option would be crazy and unfair!

That's a completely unsubstantiated, and honestly insulting, kind of statement to continue pushing.  I'd expect it from certain playstyles, like MiX, but joth/glooble are general more thoughtful, insightful, and open to the opinions of others and the infinite possibilities of creativity.

I mean, glooble even shoots his own lie in the foot when he admits to the wrench being thrown in the assumption when he points out the requirement of non-town as the wording.

There is ZERO proof or certainty that there are exactly two non-town players in one or both timelines. None. Only the non-town teams themselves could possibly know that, and even then, they can't know if there are other non-town players.

So continuing to parade around this lie as truth is anti-town at best and malicious at worst.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: scolapasta on May 12, 2021, 10:25:17 pm
Thanks, dude! Next up,

Vote: Scola

Why me? we already saw I can vote this timeline:

Vote Count 2.1:

Galzria (1): scolapasta
...
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: ashersky on May 12, 2021, 10:29:26 pm
Just a thought -- is it possible MiX convinced mathdude to use the 2 plan in their QT?  That's a great move for anti-town as the progenitor of the plan looks like a town player, but could have actually been an implant from mafia.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: scolapasta on May 12, 2021, 10:38:31 pm
OK, ready to place a more real vote:

Vote: ash
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: Uncleeurope on May 12, 2021, 11:15:19 pm
I canít read ash.

It is annoying me.

Joth has definitely been raising my eyebrows all game. No idea what to make of him.

Now that they are opposed makes me even more annoyed.

Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: WestCoastDidds on May 12, 2021, 11:37:51 pm

Why me? we already saw I can vote this timeline:

Vote Count 2.1:

Galzria (1): scolapasta
...

My bad. Vote: Joth
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: ashersky on May 13, 2021, 12:04:00 am
I'd be up for an old school wild west shootout -- joth or me for the exile today.

What do people say?  I think this only works if we have the absolutely and complete agreement of all players who are able to vote.

I'm confident we'd be making the right choice.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: ashersky on May 13, 2021, 12:05:44 am
It definitely helps prove the point.

We know that one of us is telling the truth and one of us is lying.  We sort that out, and a number of things fall into place.

I mean, I know already, but others may need to be convinced.  So once we show that it was joth lying via exile, we also implicate Glooble, and can up the suspicion on others who supported the mathdude gambit.  I'd put MiX in that pile.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: ashersky on May 13, 2021, 12:07:53 am
I'd put some parameters on this, though.

All players agree to only vote for one of the two (joth or me).
All players can and should participate in making and refuting cases on both.
No hammers until whichever player gets to E-1 first has a chance to claim/not claim/etc.

If we choose wrong, we should just agree to exile the other on D4.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: ashersky on May 13, 2021, 12:10:58 am
Again, I think we need unanimous consent on this one from active timeline players.

I confirm.

(In addition to exiling non-town joth, I think this helps move the game forward during this awkward repeat of a D1.)
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: scolapasta on May 13, 2021, 12:13:10 am
It definitely helps prove the point.

We know that one of us is telling the truth and one of us is lying.  We sort that out, and a number of things fall into place.

I mean, I know already, but others may need to be convinced.  So once we show that it was joth lying via exile, we also implicate Glooble, and can up the suspicion on others who supported the mathdude gambit.  I'd put MiX in that pile.

Why does this implicate gloobie?
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: chairs on May 13, 2021, 12:45:47 am
Joth v Ashersky needs to be a go
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: Uncleeurope on May 13, 2021, 12:51:25 am
What the heck?
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: EFHW on May 13, 2021, 07:27:34 am
What was joth's lie?

How are  you so sure joth is not town?
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: MiX on May 13, 2021, 07:49:27 am
It definitely helps prove the point.

We know that one of us is telling the truth and one of us is lying.  We sort that out, and a number of things fall into place.

I mean, I know already, but others may need to be convinced.  So once we show that it was joth lying via exile, we also implicate Glooble, and can up the suspicion on others who supported the mathdude gambit.  I'd put MiX in that pile.

Who's lying?
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: pingpongsam on May 13, 2021, 08:27:49 am
This right here is the ash I paid to see. I am still a little hesitant on the we must take out B if A doesn't flip scum. There's a few reasons for that but I will say that I think ash has got a plan, here.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: Glooble on May 13, 2021, 08:41:28 am
I seem to recall ash trying this exact play on me in our first game together, in Imperial Radch mafia. We were both town. I am pretty sure we lost that game.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: jotheonah on May 13, 2021, 09:39:17 am
joth and Glooble are the ones that seem scared, flailing, and doing their very best to convince town of a "fact" that is definitely just a random, terrible opinion.

No, you're the dum-dum head!

Quote
There is ZERO proof or certainty that there are exactly two non-town players in one or both timelines. None. Only the non-town teams themselves could possibly know that, and even then, they can't know if there are other non-town players.

So continuing to parade around this lie as truth is anti-town at best and malicious at worst.

Absolutely no one is saying this is an absolute truth. That's a flimsy strawman and you know it. We're saying this is a reasonable assumption to work off of in the absence of more or better information.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: jotheonah on May 13, 2021, 09:46:02 am
ash keeps using these terms "truth and lie" and it's really manipulative. Show me where I claimed to have any knowledge, ash. All I did was agree with, and offer some support for, a reasonable default hypothesis that many others have put forward. I've taken an incredibly innocuous and non-controversial position and I've taken it in a fairly level-headed, open-minded way.

You, on the other hand, have gone to the mattresses to defend a fairly unlikely assertion, calling anything else "insulting" and "absurd". And now you're trying to make this into something that it isn't to get me exiled.

And no, town absolutely won't actually exile you after I flip. If I thought they would, I might consider embracing your 1v1. But you know you have an entire timeline cycle for people to forget about this and that you'll easily be able to weasel out.

These 1v1s are basically always bad for town. I choose not to take your bait. Though I'm also not moving my vote.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: pingpongsam on May 13, 2021, 10:07:17 am
I've taken an incredibly innocuous and non-controversial position

Quote
And no, town absolutely won't actually exile you after I flip.


Quote
If I thought they would, I might consider embracing your 1v1...These 1v1s are basically always bad for town....I'm also not moving my vote.

All things scum says and does.

He drew, he fired, he missed.

Vote: Joth
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: hypercube on May 13, 2021, 01:06:54 pm
I don't agree with everything ash is saying but they seem super town to me.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: Glooble on May 13, 2021, 03:24:50 pm
How do we have this little activity in a game where 14 people are alive?
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: MiX on May 13, 2021, 03:28:05 pm
How do we have this little activity in a game where 14 people are alive?

Only 7 are really playing, and if you look at the roster, I'm the most active player, and I'm busy for this day.

The joth vs ash """conflict""" is really bad, but I'm not exactly opposed to a joth flip either.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: MiX on May 13, 2021, 03:28:56 pm
I seem to recall ash trying this exact play on me in our first game together, in Imperial Radch mafia. We were both town. I am pretty sure we lost that game.

Also, I reread this part, and that's just a coincidence, the 1v1 had little to do with the outcome of that game.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: Glooble on May 13, 2021, 03:38:42 pm
How do we have this little activity in a game where 14 people are alive?

Only 7 are really playing, and if you look at the roster, I'm the most active player, and I'm busy for this day.

The joth vs ash """conflict""" is really bad, but I'm not exactly opposed to a joth flip either.

I was finding joth a bit scummy on day 1. He seems more like town joth to me now, but I don't feel strongly enough about that to have my alignment tied to his the way ash is proposing. That being said, gun to my head, if you asked me who is acting scummier right now, I'd say ash. But I also think its totally possible they are both just town with different perspectives.

Like, does scum ash get combative like this? I've seen town ash do it. Seems like a big gamble to me, like what's the benefit? If ash is scum here, what's his ideal outcome? That we reject his plan but still give him townpoints for having it? That we exile joth then don't follow through when he flips town?
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: pingpongsam on May 13, 2021, 03:59:56 pm
How do we have this little activity in a game where 14 people are alive?

Only 7 are really playing, and if you look at the roster, I'm the most active player, and I'm busy for this day.

The joth vs ash """conflict""" is really bad, but I'm not exactly opposed to a joth flip either.

The thought occurs to me that they're both scum. If this blows over it's successful distancing. If it doesn't it's super successful distancing.

I was finding joth a bit scummy on day 1. He seems more like town joth to me now, but I don't feel strongly enough about that to have my alignment tied to his the way ash is proposing. That being said, gun to my head, if you asked me who is acting scummier right now, I'd say ash. But I also think its totally possible they are both just town with different perspectives.

Like, does scum ash get combative like this? I've seen town ash do it. Seems like a big gamble to me, like what's the benefit? If ash is scum here, what's his ideal outcome? That we reject his plan but still give him townpoints for having it? That we exile joth then don't follow through when he flips town?
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: pingpongsam on May 13, 2021, 04:00:31 pm
I was finding joth a bit scummy on day 1. He seems more like town joth to me now, but I don't feel strongly enough about that to have my alignment tied to his the way ash is proposing. That being said, gun to my head, if you asked me who is acting scummier right now, I'd say ash. But I also think its totally possible they are both just town with different perspectives.

Like, does scum ash get combative like this? I've seen town ash do it. Seems like a big gamble to me, like what's the benefit? If ash is scum here, what's his ideal outcome? That we reject his plan but still give him townpoints for having it? That we exile joth then don't follow through when he flips town?

The thought occurs to me that they're both scum. If this blows over it's successful distancing. If it doesn't it's super successful distancing.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: Glooble on May 13, 2021, 04:16:04 pm
I was finding joth a bit scummy on day 1. He seems more like town joth to me now, but I don't feel strongly enough about that to have my alignment tied to his the way ash is proposing. That being said, gun to my head, if you asked me who is acting scummier right now, I'd say ash. But I also think its totally possible they are both just town with different perspectives.

Like, does scum ash get combative like this? I've seen town ash do it. Seems like a big gamble to me, like what's the benefit? If ash is scum here, what's his ideal outcome? That we reject his plan but still give him townpoints for having it? That we exile joth then don't follow through when he flips town?

The thought occurs to me that they're both scum. If this blows over it's successful distancing. If it doesn't it's super successful distancing.

That would certainly be ballsy.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: scolapasta on May 13, 2021, 04:39:29 pm
How do we have this little activity in a game where 14 people are alive?

Only 7 are really playing, and if you look at the roster, I'm the most active player, and I'm busy for this day.

The joth vs ash """conflict""" is really bad, but I'm not exactly opposed to a joth flip either.

This and all the QTs, I imagine.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: Awaclus on May 13, 2021, 05:36:02 pm
How do we have this little activity in a game where 14 people are alive?

I can't vote, and it doesn't seem like there's anything else I could do that would benefit town at the moment. I guess I could try to play some kind of WIFOM against scum in some way but they have more information than I do, and I have no reason to feel confident I'm that much better at the game than they are. So, as far as I can tell, for the time being it's for the best if I just keep my thoughts to myself.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: Glooble on May 13, 2021, 05:40:00 pm
How do we have this little activity in a game where 14 people are alive?

I can't vote, and it doesn't seem like there's anything else I could do that would benefit town at the moment. I guess I could try to play some kind of WIFOM against scum in some way but they have more information than I do, and I have no reason to feel confident I'm that much better at the game than they are. So, as far as I can tell, for the time being it's for the best if I just keep my thoughts to myself.

What's your opinion on ash's plan? Who do you think is scummier between joth and ash? How many scum do you think there are in each timeline?
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: Awaclus on May 13, 2021, 06:01:15 pm
How do we have this little activity in a game where 14 people are alive?

I can't vote, and it doesn't seem like there's anything else I could do that would benefit town at the moment. I guess I could try to play some kind of WIFOM against scum in some way but they have more information than I do, and I have no reason to feel confident I'm that much better at the game than they are. So, as far as I can tell, for the time being it's for the best if I just keep my thoughts to myself.

What's your opinion on ash's plan? Who do you think is scummier between joth and ash? How many scum do you think there are in each timeline?

Is there more to ash's plan than just exiling either him or joth today? I've read the game but it's a bit hard to follow under the side effects of 40 mg of cetirizine, so if someone could summarize it in as few words as possible, that would be nice.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: scolapasta on May 13, 2021, 06:12:44 pm
How do we have this little activity in a game where 14 people are alive?

I can't vote, and it doesn't seem like there's anything else I could do that would benefit town at the moment. I guess I could try to play some kind of WIFOM against scum in some way but they have more information than I do, and I have no reason to feel confident I'm that much better at the game than they are. So, as far as I can tell, for the time being it's for the best if I just keep my thoughts to myself.

What's your opinion on ash's plan? Who do you think is scummier between joth and ash? How many scum do you think there are in each timeline?

Is there more to ash's plan than just exiling either him or joth today? I've read the game but it's a bit hard to follow under the side effects of 40 mg of cetirizine, so if someone could summarize it in as few words as possible, that would be nice.

That's how I read the plan; with the addition that if wrong, exile the other tomorrow. Seems like a 1v1 you'd get with two claimed Cops in a gme with only 1. Except it's not really built on any such reasoning. Just reads. (unless I missed something)
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: WestCoastDidds on May 13, 2021, 06:27:36 pm
EFHW, what are your thoughts on Ashís Wild West shootout?
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: Awaclus on May 13, 2021, 06:36:46 pm
That's how I read the plan; with the addition that if wrong, exile the other tomorrow. Seems like a 1v1 you'd get with two claimed Cops in a gme with only 1. Except it's not really built on any such reasoning. Just reads. (unless I missed something)

Okay, then it's an awful plan.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: jotheonah on May 13, 2021, 07:24:45 pm
How do we have this little activity in a game where 14 people are alive?

I can't vote, and it doesn't seem like there's anything else I could do that would benefit town at the moment. I guess I could try to play some kind of WIFOM against scum in some way but they have more information than I do, and I have no reason to feel confident I'm that much better at the game than they are. So, as far as I can tell, for the time being it's for the best if I just keep my thoughts to myself.

What's your opinion on ash's plan? Who do you think is scummier between joth and ash? How many scum do you think there are in each timeline?

Is there more to ash's plan than just exiling either him or joth today? I've read the game but it's a bit hard to follow under the side effects of 40 mg of cetirizine, so if someone could summarize it in as few words as possible, that would be nice.

That's how I read the plan; with the addition that if wrong, exile the other tomorrow. Seems like a 1v1 you'd get with two claimed Cops in a gme with only 1. Except it's not really built on any such reasoning. Just reads. (unless I missed something)

Except itís not tomorrow. Itís the day after tomorrow. An eternity in mafia time after which everyone will have forgotten the plan.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: pingpongsam on May 13, 2021, 09:02:29 pm
Ash used some specific terminology that suggests he may have some info on Joth. Maybe he got it from a QT partner? At any rate, he promised some showdown action so I am awaiting his return fire. He definitely acted as if the other play was a diversion so surely he wouldn't be diverting things himself?
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: Uncleeurope on May 13, 2021, 10:06:30 pm
You guys can imagine me voting for Joth right now, if it helps.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: Swowl on May 13, 2021, 10:07:31 pm
Vote Count 2.3:

Ashersky (2): Joth, scolapasta
Joth (1): WCD

Not Voting (11): EFHW, Ashersky, Dylan, Galzria, MiX, Eddie, chairs, hypercube, Glooble, PPS, Awaclus

With 7 alive on the ACTIVE TIMELINE, it takes 4 to Exile.
Day 2 starts now and ends Tuesday, May 18th at 4:55pm Forum Time.

Today the active timeline is the FORWARD TIMELINE We will remain in the FORWARD TIMELINE until the start of Day 3.
Only players from the currently active timeline may vote, or be voted for.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: scolapasta on May 13, 2021, 11:18:37 pm
Vote Count 2.3:

Ashersky (2): Joth, scolapasta
scolapasta(1): WCD

Not Voting (11): EFHW, Ashersky, Dylan, Galzria, MiX, Eddie, chairs, hypercube, Glooble, PPS, Awaclus

With 7 alive on the ACTIVE TIMELINE, it takes 4 to Exile.
Day 2 starts now and ends Tuesday, May 18th at 4:55pm Forum Time.

Today the active timeline is the FORWARD TIMELINE We will remain in the FORWARD TIMELINE until the start of Day 3.
Only players from the currently active timeline may vote, or be voted for.


Again, can you double check:


Why me? we already saw I can vote this timeline:

Vote Count 2.1:

Galzria (1): scolapasta
...

My bad. Vote: Joth
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: EFHW on May 13, 2021, 11:38:52 pm
EFHW, what are your thoughts on Ashís Wild West shootout?
I think joth is scummy, but the shoot out idea just seems like drama. I don't believe ash answered my question, which is kind of scummy. But I need to double check that.

ashersky being insulted by the 2 non town on each timeline theory is perplexing. I thought Glooble's logic on the subject made sense.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: EFHW on May 13, 2021, 11:41:58 pm
I had the same thought as pps that they might both be scum. Them fighting is a replay of the last game. Maybe they're trying to use that somehow.

OR

@ash and joth, are either of you carrying a grudge from the last gane?
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: EFHW on May 13, 2021, 11:43:41 pm
vote: joth
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: Swowl on May 14, 2021, 12:10:52 am
Vote Count 2.3:

Ashersky (2): Joth, scolapasta
Joth(1): WCD

Not Voting (11): EFHW, Ashersky, Dylan, Galzria, MiX, Eddie, chairs, hypercube, Glooble, PPS, Awaclus

With 7 alive on the ACTIVE TIMELINE, it takes 4 to Exile.
Day 2 starts now and ends Tuesday, May 18th at 4:55pm Forum Time.

Today the active timeline is the FORWARD TIMELINE We will remain in the FORWARD TIMELINE until the start of Day 3.
Only players from the currently active timeline may vote, or be voted for.

VC 2.3 corrected. Don't do VCs at work kids...
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: ashersky on May 14, 2021, 01:10:55 am
I had the same thought as pps that they might both be scum. Them fighting is a replay of the last game. Maybe they're trying to use that somehow.

OR

@ash and joth, are either of you carrying a grudge from the last gane?

What was your question?

I don't remember what I would carry a grudge for.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: ashersky on May 14, 2021, 01:13:25 am
What was joth's lie?

How are  you so sure joth is not town?

This one?  I hadn't responded to any posts since you asked this, so it isn't bad that I didn't respond yet.

I'm so sure that I am town.  He threw shade my way first, so I'm responding.  I do think that pressing on with the "exactly two non-town per timeline is the only possible setup that we should consider here and all other thoughts are anti-town" line of thinking is absolutely what mafia does in this situation, and that's what it appears to me that joth (and Glooble) are doing.  MiX is halfheartedly playing that game, which seems less anti-town than normal for him, so I don't know what that means.

So, joth's posts on this matter have be convinced he is non-town.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: ashersky on May 14, 2021, 01:14:50 am
I'll put it down officially: that was definitely a terrible use of mathdude's power and it was a complete waste of time.

We know that exactly 0, 1, 3, or 4 of the following set of players is non-town: Glooble, Awaclus, MiX, hypercube, mathdude

We got a mathdude, flip, so now we know that exactly 0, 1, 3, or 4 of the following set of players is non-town: Glooble, Awaclus, MiX, hypercube

I mean...how is that useful in any meaningful way?

The argument for 0 was that we at least removed the single option that was different, in that it assured us of something, a guarantee that mafia was in the set.  We don't even have that.

I guess the argument was betting on 2 was the best chance at a big payout?  Like various odds at the craps table?  Man, that didn't work out.

You can really read this as scum actually being worried about the info we gained from math's power and rushing in first thing in the day to throw smoke up and discredit it.

That's what I was trying to say. Thank you for saying it in a clearer way.

Here's where I specifically see joth and Glooble tied together.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: ashersky on May 14, 2021, 01:17:23 am
Honestly, ash's comment really rubs me the wrong way. In addition to being wrong, it's combative and AtE.

vote: ash

Here's a post in which joth states unequivocally that the 2 non-town per timeline hypothesis is perfect and unquestionable.

Wrong is a binary adjective here (am I using the right descriptor?).  There's only wrong and right, no other options, is what I mean.  As he declares I am wrong, he is declaring also that what I am wrong about is right.  Not probable, not likely, not more reasonable.  Right.  Correct.  Exact.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: ashersky on May 14, 2021, 01:19:46 am
Absolutely no one is saying this is an absolute truth. That's a flimsy strawman and you know it. We're saying this is a reasonable assumption to work off of in the absence of more or better information.

Straight up lie.  I just quoted you saying it is an absolute truth.

Exile All Liars.  I mean, that's never been a thing that anyone follows, but still.

You are NOT saying it is a reasonable assumption to work off of.  You 100% said I was wrong, which can only be predicated on the 2 non-town theory being right.

Or do you plan on walking back your previous statement all of a sudden when you've been caught in a lie of epic proportions?
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: ashersky on May 14, 2021, 01:24:32 am
To ensure you can't try to escape this argument, breaking down your language further, you use "in addition to being wrong..."  That phrasing is clearly meant to show that my "wrongness" is self-evident and obvious, without need for further discussion.  Everyone can see he's wrong, but there's also these other things...is what you were writing.

That does not track at all with an argument that what I am arguing against "is a reasonable assumption to work off of in the absence of more or better information."

So, within a very short space of time, you contradicted yourself.  You made one assertion, I called you out on it and drew attention to you, and you immediately tried to back track and paint yourself in a better light.

Note, I am only using your own posts to make this point.  These are your words, not mine.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: jotheonah on May 14, 2021, 09:14:16 am
Honestly, ash's comment really rubs me the wrong way. In addition to being wrong, it's combative and AtE.

vote: ash

Here's a post in which joth states unequivocally that the 2 non-town per timeline hypothesis is perfect and unquestionable.

Wrong is a binary adjective here (am I using the right descriptor?).  There's only wrong and right, no other options, is what I mean.  As he declares I am wrong, he is declaring also that what I am wrong about is right.  Not probable, not likely, not more reasonable.  Right.  Correct.  Exact.

woweee what a stretch. Ok. I didn't know this was going to become a debate about what words mean.

You can ACTUALLY use wrong to refer to opinions, i.e.

ash: McDonalds is way better than Burger King
joth: You are so wrong

In that situation no one would ever assume I was making a hard factual assertion about the relative merits of fast food. They would assume I was emphatically stating my differing opinion. Which is the sense in which I was using it.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: jotheonah on May 14, 2021, 09:17:54 am
To ensure you can't try to escape this argument, breaking down your language further, you use "in addition to being wrong..."  That phrasing is clearly meant to show that my "wrongness" is self-evident and obvious, without need for further discussion.  Everyone can see he's wrong, but there's also these other things...is what you were writing.

That does not track at all with an argument that what I am arguing against "is a reasonable assumption to work off of in the absence of more or better information."

So, within a very short space of time, you contradicted yourself.  You made one assertion, I called you out on it and drew attention to you, and you immediately tried to back track and paint yourself in a better light.

Note, I am only using your own posts to make this point.  These are your words, not mine.

this post basically fall apart once your claim that "wrong = factual assertion" is dismissed. But man, oh man, to read my posts the way you want to read them you kind of have to make up your own whole version of English.

Let me just add that you misunderstanding me and me clarifying is actually not the same as me backtracking.

What's really irking me here is that it is SO OBVIOUS that you are not arguing with me in good faith. You're just trying to gotcha me. It's pathetic and transparent, and it honestly boggles my mind that people are buying it.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: jotheonah on May 14, 2021, 09:18:36 am
Quote
"exactly two non-town per timeline is the only possible setup that we should consider here and all other thoughts are anti-town"

Another thing that NO ONE BUT YOU HAS SAID.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: jotheonah on May 14, 2021, 09:19:24 am
@ash and joth, are either of you carrying a grudge from the last gane?

There's no need. I have a fresh nw grudge to carry from this game.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: MiX on May 14, 2021, 09:21:59 am
@ash and joth, are either of you carrying a grudge from the last gane?

There's no need. I have a fresh nw grudge to carry from this game.

Who do you think is scum?
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: jotheonah on May 14, 2021, 09:43:59 am
@ash and joth, are either of you carrying a grudge from the last gane?

There's no need. I have a fresh nw grudge to carry from this game.

Who do you think is scum?

I do think ash is scum simply because this seems so much to me like a bad faith argument, and those come from scum.

I was scumreading Glooble yesterday but now less so.

I need to do a proper reread and do some real scumhunting instead of letting ash distract me with his BS. Perhaps I'll have time today.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: chairs on May 14, 2021, 10:31:44 am
Vote: ash

Bold for emphasis even though I'm a tree stump during this timeline
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: pingpongsam on May 14, 2021, 11:23:40 am
Ash is picking this fight tho. Does scum ash do this? Does scum Joth make this defense by just saying, "unh-uh you must be scum then"?
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: scolapasta on May 14, 2021, 12:54:11 pm
This artificially created 1v1 is annoying. Ash is clearly misrepresenting what joth and gloobie said. I mean I said a lot of the same stuff too, so why doesn't he include me as well in his "lying scum" list?

joth may still be scum, but he's correct that he never asserted 2 scum per TL is absolute.

And ash trying to argue this is either scummy or at best a major, artificially created, disaster.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: EFHW on May 14, 2021, 01:10:20 pm
Ash is picking this fight tho. Does scum ash do this? Does scum Joth make this defense by just saying, "unh-uh you must be scum then"?

I think town!ash does this to put pressure on joth. joth's reaction is NAI.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: EFHW on May 14, 2021, 01:13:56 pm
Ash is picking this fight tho. Does scum ash do this? Does scum Joth make this defense by just saying, "unh-uh you must be scum then"?

I think town!ash does this to put pressure on joth. joth's reaction is NAI.

Actually, thinking about it more, I think that reaction is scummy. It has a trace of a flailing feeling to it.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: Dylan32 on May 14, 2021, 03:48:43 pm
I have no idea what to make of this forced 1v1. I think I've seen Ash make plays and semantic arguments about language like this as both alignments, but o definitely remember it most clearly as scum vs town!MiX several games ago. But, that was a lot later in the game and scum!ash was in a situation where he needed a Hail Mary to win that game, so doing this D1 is just weird. Then reading Joth's responses, I can convince myself it's from either mindset depending on how I choose to read it. Barring an actual result on one of them, I think I would rather look elsewhere for now (not looking right this second, but next time I'm not on mobile I'll will).
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: Galzria on May 14, 2021, 07:29:41 pm
Woah. Time has been completely flying by for me now that work has started. Days go by and I barely notice. Yikes!

I'm super sorry! I'm at work right now, but I AM reading and catching up and will be posting tonight - and I'll make a point of being active over the weekend (even with work!)!
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: Dylan32 on May 14, 2021, 08:16:28 pm
How do we have this little activity in a game where 14 people are alive?

Only 7 are really playing, and if you look at the roster, I'm the most active player, and I'm busy for this day.

The joth vs ash """conflict""" is really bad, but I'm not exactly opposed to a joth flip either.

I was finding joth a bit scummy on day 1. He seems more like town joth to me now, but I don't feel strongly enough about that to have my alignment tied to his the way ash is proposing. That being said, gun to my head, if you asked me who is acting scummier right now, I'd say ash. But I also think its totally possible they are both just town with different perspectives.

Like, does scum ash get combative like this? I've seen town ash do it. Seems like a big gamble to me, like what's the benefit? If ash is scum here, what's his ideal outcome? That we reject his plan but still give him townpoints for having it? That we exile joth then don't follow through when he flips town?

Yes he does.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: Dylan32 on May 14, 2021, 08:33:48 pm
Reading D2 again so far, and about all I know is that I won't be voting EFHW or scola for today unless they darn near scumslip.  Actually, based off nothing but my gut,

Vote: Didds
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: ashersky on May 14, 2021, 09:52:45 pm
Honestly, ash's comment really rubs me the wrong way. In addition to being wrong, it's combative and AtE.

vote: ash

Here's a post in which joth states unequivocally that the 2 non-town per timeline hypothesis is perfect and unquestionable.

Wrong is a binary adjective here (am I using the right descriptor?).  There's only wrong and right, no other options, is what I mean.  As he declares I am wrong, he is declaring also that what I am wrong about is right.  Not probable, not likely, not more reasonable.  Right.  Correct.  Exact.

woweee what a stretch. Ok. I didn't know this was going to become a debate about what words mean.

You can ACTUALLY use wrong to refer to opinions, i.e.

ash: McDonalds is way better than Burger King
joth: You are so wrong

In that situation no one would ever assume I was making a hard factual assertion about the relative merits of fast food. They would assume I was emphatically stating my differing opinion. Which is the sense in which I was using it.

I win.

"Hi, my name is joth, and I like to use false analogies to make ash look bad.  Nice to meet you."

Of course you can use wrong to refer to opinions.  Your McDonald's example does a good job.  Except the conversation we are having in this game is not about opinions, it is about facts.  So, your analogy is misleading and bad.  Instead, look at something like this:

ash: The United States has 51 states.
joth: You are wrong.

That's the analogy you should be making here.  You are saying I'm incorrect because it is common knowledge (for adult Americans, at least), that it's 50 states.

Actually, this one might be even better:

ash: I believe Brad Pitt is 55 years old.
joth: You are wrong.  He's 57.

Here, it's a fact that is probably not super common knowledge.  Maybe you are a Pitt superfan.  Or you googled.  Even better:

ash:  I think Ray Kroc founded McDonald's in 1955.
joth:  Wrong.  Kroc founded it in 1947.  He fought in WWII, came back, and after two years working in his father's factory, decided to start a burger joint.

Joth corrects a fact and even provides supporting facts.  Except it's all lies.  It is 1955.

Voting joth is the only option for any town-aligned player.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: ashersky on May 14, 2021, 09:54:45 pm
Vote: ash

Bold for emphasis even though I'm a tree stump during this timeline

You know me better.

Ash is picking this fight tho. Does scum ash do this? Does scum Joth make this defense by just saying, "unh-uh you must be scum then"?

Like this guy does.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: ashersky on May 14, 2021, 09:56:51 pm
This artificially created 1v1 is annoying. Ash is clearly misrepresenting what joth and gloobie said. I mean I said a lot of the same stuff too, so why doesn't he include me as well in his "lying scum" list?

joth may still be scum, but he's correct that he never asserted 2 scum per TL is absolute.

And ash trying to argue this is either scummy or at best a major, artificially created, disaster.

I am not clearly misrepresenting anything.  The only thing I'm doing is clearly representing.  joth is the one misrepresenting.

I'm happy to include you in the lying list, if you insist.  I take that to mean you are admitting to lying?  I appreciate that.  Definitely awesome of you.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: scolapasta on May 14, 2021, 10:17:06 pm
This artificially created 1v1 is annoying. Ash is clearly misrepresenting what joth and gloobie said. I mean I said a lot of the same stuff too, so why doesn't he include me as well in his "lying scum" list?

joth may still be scum, but he's correct that he never asserted 2 scum per TL is absolute.

And ash trying to argue this is either scummy or at best a major, artificially created, disaster.

I am not clearly misrepresenting anything.  The only thing I'm doing is clearly representing.  joth is the one misrepresenting.

I'm happy to include you in the lying list, if you insist.  I take that to mean you are admitting to lying?  I appreciate that.  Definitely awesome of you.

But you are:

Honestly, ash's comment really rubs me the wrong way. In addition to being wrong, it's combative and AtE.

vote: ash

Here's a post in which joth states unequivocally that the 2 non-town per timeline hypothesis is perfect and unquestionable.

Wrong is a binary adjective here (am I using the right descriptor?).  There's only wrong and right, no other options, is what I mean.  As he declares I am wrong, he is declaring also that what I am wrong about is right.  Not probable, not likely, not more reasonable.  Right.  Correct.  Exact.

You claim "here's a post in which joth states unequivocally...", focusing, apparently, on his use of "wrong" here. So what is he responding to (since you don't quote that)?

Well, two posts before that, he also commented on one of yours:

I agree that the two mafia per timeline thing is super terribad and anti-town.  Itís also insulting to the mod.  This is a 16-player setup.  To argue that only four non-town is somehow balanced is yucky. 

You yourself said that this is essentially two games of mafia interlocked with each other. Why is it such a stretch to think that scum would be equally represented in the two games?

So, I think it's fair to assume that the "wrong" refers to this. So which part of are your quote is a fact? I guess "this is a 16-player setup" is there, but it's clear that joth is NOT calling that line wrong. All three other sentences are, in fact, opinions

So, again, trying to claim that joth said "wrong" to a factual statement is at best a misunderstanding on your part, at best a lie. (though a weird one, since it didn't take long to go back and find these posts)

Find a post where anyone has said that the setup is 100% 2 scum per timeline, and not just that it's a fair assumption to start with.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: scolapasta on May 14, 2021, 10:23:40 pm
Here's joth:

joth and Glooble are the ones that seem scared, flailing, and doing their very best to convince town of a "fact" that is definitely just a random, terrible opinion.

No, you're the dum-dum head!

Quote
There is ZERO proof or certainty that there are exactly two non-town players in one or both timelines. None. Only the non-town teams themselves could possibly know that, and even then, they can't know if there are other non-town players.

So continuing to parade around this lie as truth is anti-town at best and malicious at worst.

Absolutely no one is saying this is an absolute truth. That's a flimsy strawman and you know it. We're saying this is a reasonable assumption to work off of in the absence of more or better information.


Here's Gloobie:

More than 2 scum in a timeline is borderline impossible for town. You have to vote unanimously to exile anyone and if you misexile once and then scum succeeds on a nightkill town just loses. There is no way that's the setup. I'm sorry that's just math.

Only one scum in a timeline is the opposite problem, it's virtually impossible for scum to win.

If the setup is balanced, there are two scum per timeline. Unless it's multiball or we have neutral third parties of some sort. Which the "non-town" wording of math's power would lend support to.

Still, I think it's fine to start with the assumption of two scum per timeline.


And here's me:

I generally agree with the thought that 2 per timeline is a relatively safe assumption and a good place to start. We should of course question it until proven correctly, but it does give us info.



Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: scolapasta on May 14, 2021, 10:26:46 pm
None of this is meant to be proof that any of are not scum, per se, just that ash is creating this controversy out of thin air. And I don't really understand why.

It doesn't seem like a good play for scum!ash and makes no sense from town!ash. So 🤷‍♂️

Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: ashersky on May 15, 2021, 12:18:41 am
The argument is two non-town per timeline or not.  That's what we've been arguing about the entire time.

To me, it's clear that Glooble and joth, at the very least, are stating that there are two non-town per timeline.  I stated something to the contrary and joth said I was wrong.

Could joth be incorrect instead of lying?  That possibility exists.  But if he is making these assertions while knowing someone else is true, then he's lying, and that's my supposition.

His saying I was wrong is an easy example illustrating his perpetuation of the lie itself, which is that there are two non-town per timeline.

(Note, I do not in fact know the number of non-town per timeline.  There could be two, and I could be wrong.  This would be the Brad Pitt example.  But then, why would joth know for a fact the number of non-town unless he is, in fact, non-town?)
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: ashersky on May 15, 2021, 12:24:19 am
Here's joth:

joth and Glooble are the ones that seem scared, flailing, and doing their very best to convince town of a "fact" that is definitely just a random, terrible opinion.

No, you're the dum-dum head!

Quote
There is ZERO proof or certainty that there are exactly two non-town players in one or both timelines. None. Only the non-town teams themselves could possibly know that, and even then, they can't know if there are other non-town players.

So continuing to parade around this lie as truth is anti-town at best and malicious at worst.

Absolutely no one is saying this is an absolute truth. That's a flimsy strawman and you know it. We're saying this is a reasonable assumption to work off of in the absence of more or better information.


Here's Gloobie:

More than 2 scum in a timeline is borderline impossible for town. You have to vote unanimously to exile anyone and if you misexile once and then scum succeeds on a nightkill town just loses. There is no way that's the setup. I'm sorry that's just math.

Only one scum in a timeline is the opposite problem, it's virtually impossible for scum to win.

If the setup is balanced, there are two scum per timeline. Unless it's multiball or we have neutral third parties of some sort. Which the "non-town" wording of math's power would lend support to.

Still, I think it's fine to start with the assumption of two scum per timeline.


And here's me:

I generally agree with the thought that 2 per timeline is a relatively safe assumption and a good place to start. We should of course question it until proven correctly, but it does give us info.

These three posts are not equal.  Equating them is misleading and confusing.

For example, you are discussing the topic as an assumption and even add a caveat about the need to question it.  That's fine and I took no issue with it; hence no discussion of you as possibly lying non-town.

Glooble is pretty clearly stating that 2 non-town is the clear and only truth in the universe.  He even says "there are two scum in the timeline" specific as a requirement for the setup to be balanced.  I absolutely disagree, as there are a multitude of ways to ensure balance with different numbers of non-town players.  But he makes a statement of fact, not of opinion, when he uses "there are" without a "probably" or "I think" attached to it.  He could have said "there should be" or "it is most likely that" or anything.  He chose not to, a specific and direct choice that speaks to his aim and purpose.  He either knows or believes it to be a fact.  This is not an opinion.

The quote you chose for joth is one I responded to, and has nothing to do with his original claims regarding the topic of discussion, so I don't know why you quoted it.  He just says out of the blue that "absolutely no one is saying this is an absolute truth" even though Glooble did in the post you quoted, and I think he did in past posts, even if not using those exact words.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: ashersky on May 15, 2021, 12:25:15 am
None of this is meant to be proof that any of are not scum, per se, just that ash is creating this controversy out of thin air. And I don't really understand why.

It doesn't seem like a good play for scum!ash and makes no sense from town!ash. So 🤷‍♂️

Also, this is hedging.  Hedging is generally read to be bad.  If you want to choose joth over me, so be it.  But vote.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: ashersky on May 15, 2021, 12:26:10 am
I would ask that I get a chance to respond if I make it to E-1.

I am the innocent one here, not joth.  I speak nothing but truth, or my own opinion of what I feel to be truth.  Can the same be said of joth?  I do not think so, based on the words in his posts, nothing else.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: ashersky on May 15, 2021, 12:28:18 am
Another point for thought:

If this were town v town and I am just wrong, wouldn't mafia be helping this along?  Going with me is a generally safe play and it's easy enough to blame the outcome on me in the end.  I am literally providing mafia with a super easy mis-exile of a usually strong town player.  Mafia have zero reason to distance or defend joth here.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: ashersky on May 15, 2021, 12:29:17 am
Another point for thought:

If this were town v town and I am just wrong, wouldn't mafia be helping this along?  Going with me is a generally safe play and it's easy enough to blame the outcome on me in the end.  I am literally providing mafia with a super easy mis-exile of a usually strong town player.  Mafia have zero reason to distance or defend joth here.

And based on the supposed facts provided by joth, et al., there should be exactly two mafia available to vote for him today.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: scolapasta on May 15, 2021, 01:13:44 am
Dude, I did already vote. For you. Ages ago.

You completely ignored the post where I posted actual quotes that show how you are misrepresenting joth's "wrong". (note, not the post with quotes that you did respond to, which was a separate thing)

Re: that 2nd post
From the examples I gave, I quoted the full text so you / others could see the context. I guess I should have bolded the "assumption" parts, but I assumed that would be clear. I just don't get this desire to keep claiming these things when the evidence is there that you are wrong in what you claim joth is saying.

Joth:
"Absolutely no one is saying this is an absolute truth. That's a flimsy strawman and you know it. We're saying this is a reasonable assumption to work off of in the absence of more or better information."

Gloobie:
"If the setup is balanced, there are two scum per timeline. Unless it's multiball or we have neutral third parties of some sort. Which the "non-town" wording of math's power would lend support to.

Still, I think it's fine to start with the assumption of two scum per timeline."

You wrote:
"He even says "there are two scum in the timeline" specific as a requirement for the setup to be balanced.  I absolutely disagree, as there are a multitude of ways to ensure balance with different numbers of non-town players"

BUT YOU CHOOSE TO GINORE THE "UNLESS" CLAUSE, WHERE HE AGREES WITH EXACTLY WHAT YOU JUST SAID.

So, as I've said, it's clear you are trolling, I just don't get why. And you can it hedging all you want to try to add suspicion of me, but whatever. I think it's reasonable to point out that my "defense" of joth is not about his scumminess / towness, but just you tasking out of context and trying to create an artificial 1v1.


Humor me for a bit - pretend you agree with me that you are purposefully trolling. What reasons could you reasonably have to do that as town in a game?
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: ashersky on May 15, 2021, 03:05:45 am
If you disagree with my 1v1 argument, why are you taking part?  You clearly are taking joth's side over mine, so you have chosen in the 1v1.  To be clear, that's absolutely fine with me.  It was my suggestion in the first place.  Just stop saying you disagree with the 1v1 or whatever, because you are clearly playing along.

Your defense of glooble is sound, and while I've listed glooble in my suspicions, it's definitely more because of his tie to joth than his statements.  I've clearly been focused on joth here, not glooble.  I still think he made a strong statement of fact that there are 2 non-town per timeline given his own words.  He then adds the unless as a hedge.  It's like "I'm positive I left my keys on the table...unless I'm misremembering."  The first half of that is an objective statement, not a subjective one.  Same with glooble's thing.

As for humoring you?  If I was trolling (by which I assume you mean purposefully doing annoying things for the sake of annoyance?), I would assume it would have to be for laughs?  I mean, why do trolls troll anyway?

If you mean that I am purposefully continuing an argument that I actually know to be flawed/wrong/weak/useless/whatever you think for some reason other than the actual argument I'm making, then I guess others have mentioned that it could be to force reactions from players, gain information by seeing how players perform under pressures or in response to specific claims, etc.

It's none of that though.  If anything, I'd say the closest thing you might recognize would be MiXing.  I know I'm town, I know I'm right, and I won't stop until you believe me or exile me.

The funny thing is, this is so incredibly easy to solve.  Agree to the 1v1.  That's all it takes.  Even if joth doesn't, if everyone else does, we can ensure the exile is him or me.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: ashersky on May 15, 2021, 03:33:57 am
Ashersky (2): Joth, scolapasta
Joth (1): WCD

Not Voting (4): EFHW, Ashersky, Dylan, Galzria

With 7 alive on the ACTIVE TIMELINE, it takes 4 to Exile.
Day 2 ends Tuesday, May 18th at 4:55pm Forum Time.


This is what's actually happening today, right?

vote: joth although that's obvious.  That makes it 2 each.  Galz needs to catch up, not sure what EFHW and Dylan are thinking.


Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: ashersky on May 15, 2021, 08:01:43 am
Wow.  So much activity.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: ashersky on May 15, 2021, 08:05:18 am
Maybe I can phrase it differently:

Do you think I'm lying?  Or do you think I'm wrong?

If it's the former, you have to decide why, probably settle on me being not town, and would look to exile me.
if it's the latter, you have to accept that it's possible I'm town and wrong, or that you are wrong and I'm right.

That's if you want to make this about me.  I'd rather you make it about joth.

Do you think he's lying?  Or do you think he's right?  Or do you think he's wrong?  Or do you think it is some mix of those?

Decide what that means to you.  Like, if he's on a 3-person mafia team with 1 in this timeline and 2 in the other, than I'd say he's just lying.  Yes, he's wrong, but being wrong on purpose, so I wouldn't give him that adjective.  But if he's an SK with no further knowledge, then he's lying, but could be right or wrong at the same time.

I guess he could be lying town, but that seems unlikely.  Only very few of us go that route.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: MiX on May 15, 2021, 08:14:25 am
Maybe I can phrase it differently:

Do you think I'm lying?  Or do you think I'm wrong?

If it's the former, you have to decide why, probably settle on me being not town, and would look to exile me.
if it's the latter, you have to accept that it's possible I'm town and wrong, or that you are wrong and I'm right.

That's if you want to make this about me.  I'd rather you make it about joth.

Do you think he's lying?  Or do you think he's right?  Or do you think he's wrong?  Or do you think it is some mix of those?

Decide what that means to you.  Like, if he's on a 3-person mafia team with 1 in this timeline and 2 in the other, than I'd say he's just lying.  Yes, he's wrong, but being wrong on purpose, so I wouldn't give him that adjective.  But if he's an SK with no further knowledge, then he's lying, but could be right or wrong at the same time.

I guess he could be lying town, but that seems unlikely.  Only very few of us go that route.

Lying about what? It seems your entire argument stems from the supposed fact that joth is saying he knows there's exactly two scum in each timeline. If he was saying that, then it doesn't matter if it's right or wrong, he's either lying or he's scum.

As for you, lying about what? You haven't made any absolute statements as far as I can tell, unless the statement is "joth is absolutely stating that there's exactly two scum in each timeline", which is an opinion.

Here's what I think: you are completely overexaggerating joth's statement, and joth is responding to it like he would as scum. So he's probably scum. This has nothing to do with the original argument, just the way joth's responding by saying "oh yes actually everything I have said is perfectly rational and therefore your argument is incorrect" instead of saying "yeah yeah yeah I don't care cause I'm town lolololol" (not that he would say that, but I don't know the joth equivalent).
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: Uncleeurope on May 15, 2021, 08:15:46 am
I feel like I need to step on in here a bit, (this being from someone with little trust for Joth, and a lack of understanding of who the heck ashersky is as a player)

If it ainít Joth/Ash in this timeline, who is it?

That is a question we should at least spend a day on, right?
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: MiX on May 15, 2021, 08:20:54 am
I feel like I need to step on in here a bit, (this being from someone with little trust for Joth, and a lack of understanding of who the heck ashersky is as a player)

If it ainít Joth/Ash in this timeline, who is it?

That is a question we should at least spend a day on, right?

I have no idea, I'm not paying enough attention to this timeline. EFHW isn't being obv!scum, I don't remember anything from Dylan so he's scum?, Didds and Galzria are playing the game I think? And I don't know what scola's doing besides side with joth here.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: WestCoastDidds on May 15, 2021, 01:22:46 pm
Hey yíall-

Iím on a weekend holiday, so pretty VLA until Monday.

Iím not sure when deadline is, but Iím cool with my vote.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: chairs on May 15, 2021, 02:28:10 pm
Heads up weekends are basically auto vla for me currently, I'll try to check in but I'm not sure I really have much to say.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: Dylan32 on May 15, 2021, 02:31:56 pm
For what it's worth, I guess with Joth or Ash are exiled today and flip town, I'd agree to exiling the other next available chance, but I'm not convinced that should be the center of our focus right now.  I mean, I'm currently voting Didds, which I only feel like noting because Ash left it off of his VC, which was maybe on purpose if he was emphasizing the 1v1. So if we aren't going to actually take sides on the shootout, vote people. Let's start a wagon so we actually have something to look at later.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: Dylan32 on May 15, 2021, 02:32:29 pm
For what it's worth, I guess if Joth or Ash are exiled today and flip town, I'd agree to exiling the other next available chance, but I'm not convinced that should be the center of our focus right now.  I mean, I'm currently voting Didds, which I only feel like noting because Ash left it off of his VC, which was maybe on purpose if he was emphasizing the 1v1. So if we aren't going to actually take sides on the shootout, vote people. Let's start a wagon so we actually have something to look at later.

EBWOP
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: scolapasta on May 15, 2021, 05:04:55 pm
You're right I don't agree with your artificially created 1v1. That doesn't mean I can't still vote for you.

But I am also looking at other options - i.e I'm not doing it because I believe this 1v1.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: Swowl on May 15, 2021, 07:54:50 pm
Vote Count 2.4:

Joth (3): WCD, EFHW, Ashersky
Ashersky (2): Joth, scolapasta
WestCoastDidds (1): Dylan32

Not Voting (8): Galzria, MiX, Eddie, chairs, hypercube, Glooble, PPS, Awaclus

With 7 alive on the ACTIVE TIMELINE, it takes 4 to Exile.
Day 2 starts now and ends Tuesday, May 18th at 4:55pm Forum Time.

Today the active timeline is the FORWARD TIMELINE We will remain in the FORWARD TIMELINE until the start of Day 3.
Only players from the currently active timeline may vote, or be voted for.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: EFHW on May 15, 2021, 08:36:24 pm
I need to do a proper reread and do some real scumhunting instead of letting ash distract me with his BS. Perhaps I'll have time today.

Still hoping to see this!
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: jotheonah on May 15, 2021, 09:41:30 pm
I need to do a proper reread and do some real scumhunting instead of letting ash distract me with his BS. Perhaps I'll have time today.

Still hoping to see this!

I should have time tomorrow.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: ashersky on May 15, 2021, 10:51:42 pm
I need to do a proper reread and do some real scumhunting instead of letting ash distract me with his BS. Perhaps I'll have time today.

Still hoping to see this!

I should have time tomorrow.

FYI, you are at E-1.  Like a real one, because I'm already voting.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: ashersky on May 15, 2021, 10:53:20 pm
Real VC 2:

Joth (3): WCD, EFHW, Ashersky
Ashersky (2): Joth, scolapasta
WestCoastDidds (1): Dylan32

Not Voting (1): Galzria

With 7 alive on the ACTIVE TIMELINE, it takes 4 to Exile.
Day 2 ends Tuesday, May 18th at 4:55pm Forum Time.



Dylan or Galz could vote me and make the other a kingmaker.  Fun times.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: Dylan32 on May 16, 2021, 02:34:28 am
Ok, this is interesting to me.

Joth (3): WCD, EFHW, Ashersky
Ashersky (2): Joth, scolapasta
WestCoastDidds (1): Dylan32

Not Voting (1): Galzria

Combining that vote count with a couple town reads of mine, I'm thinking it's either two of {Didds, Ash, Galz} or {Joth, Galz}. I don't think scum would be bussing here. (I'm going to ignore the case where there is only one scum on this timeline, because partner analysis obviously means nothing in that case, even though it's technically possible).

If joth is scum (and no bussing), scum would be in {scola, Galz}. After BSGs1 being scum partners with scola, I just think this is town scola. At the very least, I don't think scola and Joth are partners, because this hasn't sounded like how scola played in relation to Jack and I that game. Thus, I'm left with thinking Joth and Galz are a possible team. If there are more than 2 scum teammates on this timeline, then on the one hand bussing would be less risky, but it would be almost completely unnecessary. So assuming they aren't, that would leave {Joth, scola, Galz} as partners in that case.

If Ash is scum, there are obviously more combinations, like {Ash, Didds | EFHW | Galz}. Based on very little except a gut read based on past games, I think EFHW is town. I don't feel as strongly about this as my read on scola, but it's there. So {Ash, Didds | Galz}. If Ash isn't scum though (and Joth isn't either), then at least 2 of {scola, EFHW, Didds, Galz} are scum, and if I take out my town reads I'm left with Didds and Galz.

Normally, I wouldn't think stuff like this is very useful, and maybe it's not, but it feels like with this setup being what it is, I think scum not bussing a timeline partner early feels like a very safe assumption to make, which cuts out quite a few of the possible combos based on these wagons.

Based on Galz being in both of the possible sets, part of me wants to move my vote there, but I'm going to stick with Didds for now.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: hypercube on May 16, 2021, 08:03:16 am
Lying about what? It seems your entire argument stems from the supposed fact that joth is saying he knows there's exactly two scum in each timeline. If he was saying that, then it doesn't matter if it's right or wrong, he's either lying or he's scum.

This really is what's weird to me about ash's argument - if joth is telling the truth he's scum, so why frame it as exiling joth for lying. It's a lapse in logic on ash's part but I'm not sure  that it's an alignment-indicative one.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: hypercube on May 16, 2021, 08:13:11 am
I do think that joth's comment about ash being "wrong" could be a scumslip, and I don't like his reaction to ash's pressure. That and his reaction to mathdude's exile is enough that I'd be voting for him today if I could.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: Glooble on May 16, 2021, 08:30:48 am
Ashersky (2): Joth, scolapasta
Joth (1): WCD

Not Voting (4): EFHW, Ashersky, Dylan, Galzria

With 7 alive on the ACTIVE TIMELINE, it takes 4 to Exile.
Day 2 ends Tuesday, May 18th at 4:55pm Forum Time.


This is what's actually happening today, right?

vote: joth although that's obvious.  That makes it 2 each.  Galz needs to catch up, not sure what EFHW and Dylan are thinking.

So ash is putting Joth to L-1 here, either having missed EFHWs vote or intentionally leaving it out to get an ďaccidentalĒ hammer before joth can claim.

Whether itís an accident or intentional, thereís almost 5 hours between this vote and Swowl posting 2.4, indicating that joth is actually at L-1. During that time, if joth is town, any scum in the forward timeline not already voting for him would have had perfect cover to ďaccidentallyĒ hammer.

I feel like thereís something useful here, I just donít have time to fully dig into it right now.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: Glooble on May 16, 2021, 08:56:05 am
I guess this mostly just applies to Dylan- he posted during that interval, I think if he were scum and joth were town itís likely he wouldnít have been able to pass up the chance to hammer and pretend he thought he was just putting joth to E-1. Galz was not around, and scola had already expressed such strong feels towards exiling ash that a swap would have looked too suspicious.

Wait a sec I just looked at the times again, I missed the AM/ PM shift. It wasnít 5 hours it was 16- 3:33 am to 7:54 pm. Thatís a long time.

EFHW didnít post during this interval so itís possible she wasnít around, but I think itís a tad scummy of her not to have pointed out the error.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: Glooble on May 16, 2021, 08:58:58 am
So, in summary, ash is scummy for saying he was putting joth at E-2 when he was putting him at E-1, though I wonít rule out an honest mistake. EFHW is scummy for not pointing out her vote, though itís possible she didnít check in during that time, it was 16 hours which is a significant amount of time not to check into the game. And if joth is town, then I think Dylan is probably town, because he would have passed up a great opportunity to secure a misexile with an excellent excuse.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: Uncleeurope on May 16, 2021, 10:54:54 am
I will say that Joth has been acting slightly more townie in private than he has in the main thread.

Not much, but enough that I found it worth mentioning.

The main issue I am having is that both versions of a Joth would be frustrated at Ash right now.

I guess I feel pretty confident that Ash and Joth ainít scum buddies, but thatís it.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: jotheonah on May 16, 2021, 12:39:14 pm
Glooble's two game observation suggests to me that there is an even number of scum, most likely 4, or two teams of two. Is that balanced for a 16 player game? Maybe there's a 3rd party, too.

Just pointing out that EFHW started discussion on this topic on day 1. Wonder why ash didn't jump in then? Could it be because his outrage is entirely artificial?
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: jotheonah on May 16, 2021, 12:57:06 pm
I just re-read D1 and honestly, I got nothing. Pretty much everyone in this timeline barely participated yesterday. Ash did nearly 100% setup talk. Didds barely checked in. EFHW was the most participate-y and mostly tunneled on me, which I could try to make a case out of but it would just look like OMGUS. For the record it was a bad case but struck me as a towny bad case. I don't even remember scola, Dylan, or Galz's posts or lack thereof.

Should I claim? Would that be helpful?
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: EFHW on May 16, 2021, 02:15:09 pm
I just re-read D1 and honestly, I got nothing. Pretty much everyone in this timeline barely participated yesterday. Ash did nearly 100% setup talk. Didds barely checked in. EFHW was the most participate-y and mostly tunneled on me, which I could try to make a case out of but it would just look like OMGUS. For the record it was a bad case but struck me as a towny bad case. I don't even remember scola, Dylan, or Galz's posts or lack thereof.

Should I claim? Would that be helpful?

I think so.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: jotheonah on May 16, 2021, 03:19:56 pm
Ok. I'm Kimberly Campbell. I'm a 2-shot roleblocker.

Kimberly Campbell (the name in my PM) is actually the name of the actor who played the unnamed "escort" in the movie, but I assume I'm meant to be the character.

I couldn't use my power last night because, you know, timelines.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: EFHW on May 16, 2021, 05:26:52 pm
How does Roleblocker fit with your flavor?
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: EFHW on May 16, 2021, 05:28:29 pm
I will say that Joth has been acting slightly more townie in private than he has in the main thread.

Not much, but enough that I found it worth mentioning.

The main issue I am having is that both versions of a Joth would be frustrated at Ash right now.

I guess I feel pretty confident that Ash and Joth ainít scum buddies, but thatís it.

Can you say more about how joth is being towny?
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: jotheonah on May 16, 2021, 08:04:20 pm
How does Roleblocker fit with your flavor?

Roleblockers have been flavored as prostitutes from the early days of mafia. I think the idea is that they distract the target for the night. If you search prostitute on mafiascum wiki it redirects to roleblocker.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: ashersky on May 16, 2021, 10:23:44 pm
Roleblocker is also, of course, a popular anti-town role for anti-town alignments.  Town versions exist, which make them a go-to claim for mafia.

Just pointing that out.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: ashersky on May 16, 2021, 10:25:15 pm
I'd like to invite joth (and any other players who would like) to continue to try to make a case, any case, that I am not town.  It's super hilarious.  I get why many may not understand why, but it is.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: jotheonah on May 16, 2021, 10:25:46 pm
Roleblocker is also, of course, a popular anti-town role for anti-town alignments.  Town versions exist, which make them a go-to claim for mafia.

Just pointing that out.

Believe me, if I were scum I would have claimed doctor or something else undeniably towny. Unfortunately I'm town and have to claim my real role.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: jotheonah on May 16, 2021, 10:27:03 pm
I'd like to invite joth (and any other players who would like) to continue to try to make a case, any case, that I am not town.  It's super hilarious.  I get why many may not understand why, but it is.

Ok. So far you've done absolutely nothing protown this game. Day one you did a bunch of setup talk, which is easy peezy acti-lurking, and today you've done nothing but your lazy, preposterous manufactured 1v1 on me.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: EFHW on May 16, 2021, 10:44:58 pm
joth, who would you exile other than ashersky?
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: ashersky on May 16, 2021, 11:11:31 pm
I'd like to invite joth (and any other players who would like) to continue to try to make a case, any case, that I am not town.  It's super hilarious.  I get why many may not understand why, but it is.

Ok. So far you've done absolutely nothing protown this game. Day one you did a bunch of setup talk, which is easy peezy acti-lurking, and today you've done nothing but your lazy, preposterous manufactured 1v1 on me.

I disagree that what I've done has not been protown.  I agree with your Day 1 assessment.  The 1v1 may be manufactured, but definitely not lazy.  It's a lot of work!
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: jotheonah on May 16, 2021, 11:17:42 pm
joth, who would you exile other than ashersky?

In this timeline or in either timeline?
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: Uncleeurope on May 16, 2021, 11:50:50 pm
I will say that Joth has been acting slightly more townie in private than he has in the main thread.

Not much, but enough that I found it worth mentioning.

The main issue I am having is that both versions of a Joth would be frustrated at Ash right now.

I guess I feel pretty confident that Ash and Joth ainít scum buddies, but thatís it.

Can you say more about how joth is being towny?

Eh, his interactions with me have been minimal, but his frustration seems genuine.

But itís hard to say.

He seems bewildered as to how I (or anyone) could possibly see Ash as Townier than him.

Itís hard to say, I havenít had the best track record at reading Joth.

He also did claim to be a scummy role to me few days ago, so his fakeclaim was either figured out days ago, or it isnít fake.

I honestly canít make heads or tails of him.

I scum leaned him day 1, but his posts to me directly have left me closer to null.

Make of that what you will.

I find value in at least setting up some cases for others today.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: Uncleeurope on May 16, 2021, 11:52:21 pm
(Well, his fakeclaim If definitely not fake)

(But is an escort really town aligned? Ehh...)
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: Swowl on May 17, 2021, 12:12:44 am
Vote Count 2.5:

Joth (3): WCD, EFHW, Ashersky
Ashersky (2): Joth, scolapasta
WestCoastDidds (1): Dylan32

Not Voting (8): Galzria, MiX, Eddie, chairs, hypercube, Glooble, PPS, Awaclus

With 7 alive on the ACTIVE TIMELINE, it takes 4 to Exile.
Day 2 ends Tuesday, May 18th at 4:55pm Forum Time - That is less than 2 days from now.

Today the active timeline is the FORWARD TIMELINE We will remain in the FORWARD TIMELINE until the start of Day 3.
Only players from the currently active timeline may vote, or be voted for.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: ashersky on May 17, 2021, 02:26:00 am
If anyone was asking me, I would say Galzria is the other option for today.

And I say that with a heavy heart, of course.  But man, talk about inactive.  Town!galz is just much more active than this usually.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: Awaclus on May 17, 2021, 03:34:56 am
MFW not voting:
8)
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: Glooble on May 17, 2021, 06:19:37 am
I'd like to invite joth (and any other players who would like) to continue to try to make a case, any case, that I am not town.  It's super hilarious.  I get why many may not understand why, but it is.

I did make a point that everyone ignored, so Iíll say it again- putting joth to E-1 and saying it was E-2 was scummy. Whatís your defense of that?
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: Glooble on May 17, 2021, 06:41:50 am

He seems bewildered as to how I (or anyone) could possibly see Ash as Townier than him.


Honestly, same. Iím incredibly bewildered that we havenít already exiled ash.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: Glooble on May 17, 2021, 06:45:01 am
Iíd also like EFHW to respond to my earlier accusation towards her.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: pingpongsam on May 17, 2021, 06:53:35 am
I'd like to invite joth (and any other players who would like) to continue to try to make a case, any case, that I am not town.  It's super hilarious.  I get why many may not understand why, but it is.

I did make a point that everyone ignored, so Iíll say it again- putting joth to E-1 and saying it was E-2 was scummy. Whatís your defense of that?
This ignores the E-1 elephant that's been standing in the room for some time now. Diverting from that is far scummier.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: Glooble on May 17, 2021, 06:54:22 am
I'd like to invite joth (and any other players who would like) to continue to try to make a case, any case, that I am not town.  It's super hilarious.  I get why many may not understand why, but it is.

I did make a point that everyone ignored, so Iíll say it again- putting joth to E-1 and saying it was E-2 was scummy. Whatís your defense of that?
This ignores the E-1 elephant that's been standing in the room for some time now. Diverting from that is far scummier.

I literally donít understand what youíre saying here.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: Glooble on May 17, 2021, 07:00:20 am
Also Roleblocker is a weird fakeclaim to make as scum, especially given jothís position today. Why wouldnít he claim something really good and at least try to bait out a counterclaim?
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: WestCoastDidds on May 17, 2021, 08:05:17 am
Hmmm...  if there are two baddies on our timeline, and it takes 4 to exile, then we (town) pretty much all need to be on the same page to make that happen.

That Joth has been cold chilling at E-1 for like a day now is interesting in that regard. In the last game I played when someone couldnít get exiled, it was because they were scum. Glooble leanibg way in to defend Joth is interesting to me, too.

Iím not quite sure what up make of Dylanís vote for me, or Galzís absence. Absent Galz is often scum Galz. Do we know who his qt-mate is? Has he shown up there? The odds of no exile go way up if someone just stays away, but that seems to suit scum way better than town as long as weíre in split timelines.

Iím heading back to the States this afternoon. I think Iíll have WiFi for most of that time so I should be around more.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: EFHW on May 17, 2021, 09:20:15 am
joth, who would you exile other than ashersky?

In this timeline or in either timeline?
This one
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: EFHW on May 17, 2021, 09:22:15 am
Iíd also like EFHW to respond to my earlier accusation towards her.

Didn't realize you were that serious. I didn't notice the E2/E1 issue until you pointed it out.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: Glooble on May 17, 2021, 09:28:48 am
Iíd also like EFHW to respond to my earlier accusation towards her.

Didn't realize you were that serious. I didn't notice the E2/E1 issue until you pointed it out.

Interesting. I don't buy it. When you voted for joth, you had to have known how many votes were already on him. When you saw ash's vote and subsequent incorrect vote count, how could you not have noticed an error?
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: Glooble on May 17, 2021, 09:42:22 am
If I could vote right now, I would have just moved my vote from ash to EFHW. Because if ash v. joth is town v. town, then scum!EFHW not pointing out ash's error makes a lot more sense to me than town!EFHW just not noticing. And if ash is scum and joth is town, same thing. It becomes a concerted ploy to trick a townie into hammering while thinking they're just putting joth to E-1. And if they're caught "oh, sorry, we just didn't notice, we made a mistake."

Well, I'll buy one player of their caliber making that mistake. But both? For 16 hours? No, sorry.

Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: jotheonah on May 17, 2021, 10:02:37 am
joth, who would you exile other than ashersky?

In this timeline or in either timeline?
This one

You, because Glooble's making sense. Or Galz for lurking.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: Uncleeurope on May 17, 2021, 10:35:38 am
There WCD goes dropping the occasional reason for me to scumread them.

Probably when WCD is town anyway.

Sigh...

I just canít read her properly.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: Uncleeurope on May 17, 2021, 10:36:52 am
joth, who would you exile other than ashersky?

In this timeline or in either timeline?
This one

You, because Glooble's making sense. Or Galz for lurking.

He always lurks.

(Ima try and fit in a few Faust-isms)
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: scolapasta on May 17, 2021, 10:47:33 am
There WCD goes dropping the occasional reason for me to scumread them.

Probably when WCD is town anyway.

Sigh...

I just canít read her properly.

Yes, I'm also sensing some scuminess there.

This ash vote doesn't seem to be going anywhere, though not sure how much is Glaz being absent. I'm thinking I'll switch to WCD (or EFHW) by this evening.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: hypercube on May 17, 2021, 12:50:15 pm
Does scum ever actually try to get an accidental hammer at this point in the game? Or is Glooble just reaching to deflect from joth?
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: pingpongsam on May 17, 2021, 12:55:25 pm

This ignores the E-1 elephant that's been standing in the room for some time now. Diverting from that is far scummier.
Quote
I literally donít understand what youíre saying here.

Can you tell me why there's been no hammer or intent to hammer if Joth is town? I see a sustained stalled E-1 as indicative of scum. Picking on the town who put him there is what I am calling scummy.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: Glooble on May 17, 2021, 12:58:49 pm

This ignores the E-1 elephant that's been standing in the room for some time now. Diverting from that is far scummier.
Quote
I literally donít understand what youíre saying here.

Can you tell me why there's been no hammer or intent to hammer if Joth is town? I see a sustained stalled E-1 as indicative of scum. Picking on the town who put him there is what I am calling scummy.

There's been no hammer or intent to hammer because it takes four to exile and there aren't four players who want to exile joth? Because he's town.

Boom! Solved it for ya.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: Glooble on May 17, 2021, 12:59:25 pm
Does scum ever actually try to get an accidental hammer at this point in the game? Or is Glooble just reaching to deflect from joth?

Well, they're clearly failing to get an intentional hammer.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: Glooble on May 17, 2021, 01:00:23 pm
I see a sustained stalled E-1 as indicative of scum.

Do you have a shred of evidence for this interpretation of the days events?
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: pingpongsam on May 17, 2021, 01:03:44 pm
I see a sustained stalled E-1 as indicative of scum.

Do you have a shred of evidence for this interpretation of the days events?

If I were scum and the wagon was on town I would hammer.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: pingpongsam on May 17, 2021, 01:06:00 pm
I see a sustained stalled E-1 as indicative of scum.

Do you have a shred of evidence for this interpretation of the days events?


Also I edited a post of Joth's that basically took away the window dressing and showed it for the scum it was. I'd say Joth's own arguments are the evidence.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: Glooble on May 17, 2021, 01:07:06 pm
I see a sustained stalled E-1 as indicative of scum.

Do you have a shred of evidence for this interpretation of the days events?


Also I edited a post of Joth's that basically took away the window dressing and showed it for the scum it was. I'd say Joth's own arguments are the evidence.

Ash's arguments are so much scummier than joth's. I can't believe we're reading the same game.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: pingpongsam on May 17, 2021, 01:08:17 pm
Ash's arguments are so much scummier than joth's. I can't believe we're reading the same game.

Only in the context of defense instead of offense.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: Glooble on May 17, 2021, 01:09:44 pm
Also, though, only half the players in the game can vote and one of them is Galz, who has been MIA. So it's basically 4 out of 6 needed to exile right now, really out of 5, since joth isn't going to self-vote. That would stall literally any wagon. It's NAI.

Ash's arguments are so much scummier than joth's. I can't believe we're reading the same game.

Only in the context of defense instead of offense.

What does this even mean?
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: hypercube on May 17, 2021, 01:14:18 pm
Also, though, only half the players in the game can vote and one of them is Galz, who has been MIA. So it's basically 4 out of 6 needed to exile right now, really out of 5, since joth isn't going to self-vote. That would stall literally any wagon. It's NAI.

Would it stall a wagon on town? If we assume 2 scum then that's only 2 town they need to be on wagon.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: pingpongsam on May 17, 2021, 01:16:22 pm
I've taken an incredibly innocuous and non-controversial position

Defensive scum posturing intended to make ash's play look scummy I guess? It looks like a pretty straightforward defense of being targeted scum instead of actually, say, scum hunting.

Quote
And no, town absolutely won't actually exile you after I flip.

Here we are with the absolutes that only scum can have. Why would we flip ash if Joth flips scum. It'd be a ballsy and unnecessary bus so I don't think we'd wager that chance until some investigative results indicated we should.

Quote
If I thought they would, I might consider embracing your 1v1...These 1v1s are basically always bad for town....I'm also not moving my vote.

So basically, if he thought this could work out to his advantage he'd take the bait. Also note the wishy washiness of the "almost" always statement. Instead of saying these are never good for town he's implying that maybe this one right here actually is.


I get what he's trying to say but how he says it seems telling to me. I don't see how anyone reads this as anything but scum. I'd like to see your interpretation of it, though.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: pingpongsam on May 17, 2021, 01:21:23 pm
Also, though, only half the players in the game can vote and one of them is Galz, who has been MIA. So it's basically 4 out of 6 needed to exile right now, really out of 5, since joth isn't going to self-vote. That would stall literally any wagon. It's NAI.

Would it stall a wagon on town? If we assume 2 scum then that's only 2 town they need to be on wagon.

I already answered this question with regards to how I personally view the wagon. I suppose at this point it would just be a question about the worthiness of my playstyle. What I would not have done is joined the wagon early with that type of baiting. So I am assuming that if Joth were town then the early voters were as well. I would agree with arguments that no one else would play like me, I guess. This is ash we're talking about, though, and I like to think I can read him better than most. I don't see scum ash doing this. I don't see town ash doing this without supporting evidence to do so which he alluded to.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: Glooble on May 17, 2021, 01:24:31 pm
Also, though, only half the players in the game can vote and one of them is Galz, who has been MIA. So it's basically 4 out of 6 needed to exile right now, really out of 5, since joth isn't going to self-vote. That would stall literally any wagon. It's NAI.

Would it stall a wagon on town? If we assume 2 scum then that's only 2 town they need to be on wagon.

Just want to point out the hypocrisy of "If we assume two scum" here while people are literally about to exile joth for assuming two scum. Because if, as Ash says, it could be 1 and 3 or 4 and 0 or any other random combination, than why would a stalled wagon be indicative of anything? If you want to use the "stalled wagon = scum" argument against joth, you have to acknowledge that he and I have a point about the likelyhood of 2 scum per timeline, and then your whole case on joth pretty much falls apart.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: MiX on May 17, 2021, 01:26:43 pm
Also, though, only half the players in the game can vote and one of them is Galz, who has been MIA. So it's basically 4 out of 6 needed to exile right now, really out of 5, since joth isn't going to self-vote. That would stall literally any wagon. It's NAI.

Would it stall a wagon on town? If we assume 2 scum then that's only 2 town they need to be on wagon.

Just want to point out the hypocrisy of "If we assume two scum" here while people are literally about to exile joth for assuming two scum. Because if, as Ash says, it could be 1 and 3 or 4 and 0 or any other random combination, than why would a stalled wagon be indicative of anything? If you want to use the "stalled wagon = scum" argument against joth, you have to acknowledge that he and I have a point about the likelyhood of 2 scum per timeline, and then your whole case on joth pretty much falls apart.

But in what way does the amount of scum have anything to do with anyone being scum?
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: Glooble on May 17, 2021, 01:28:49 pm


Here we are with the absolutes that only scum can have. Why would we flip ash if Joth flips scum. It'd be a ballsy and unnecessary bus so I don't think we'd wager that chance until some investigative results indicated we should.

Quote
If I thought they would, I might consider embracing your 1v1...These 1v1s are basically always bad for town....I'm also not moving my vote.

So basically, if he thought this could work out to his advantage he'd take the bait. Also note the wishy washiness of the "almost" always statement. Instead of saying these are never good for town he's implying that maybe this one right here actually is.


I get what he's trying to say but how he says it seems telling to me. I don't see how anyone reads this as anything but scum. I'd like to see your interpretation of it, though.

I think you're completely misunderstanding this interaction. Joth was saying, "If I flip town, the town won't exile you." He was basically telling ash that he believes that if he accepted the one-on-one and Ash won, ash would find some way to weasel out of actually getting exiled, and given that he wouldn't be eligible to be exiled again until day 4 anyway, he'd have plenty of time to do it. In between we'd had all manner of night actions and things that would present a stronger case, or that scum!ash could spin as reasons not to follow through with town's promise to exile him if joth flipped town.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: Glooble on May 17, 2021, 01:29:33 pm
Also, though, only half the players in the game can vote and one of them is Galz, who has been MIA. So it's basically 4 out of 6 needed to exile right now, really out of 5, since joth isn't going to self-vote. That would stall literally any wagon. It's NAI.

Would it stall a wagon on town? If we assume 2 scum then that's only 2 town they need to be on wagon.

Just want to point out the hypocrisy of "If we assume two scum" here while people are literally about to exile joth for assuming two scum. Because if, as Ash says, it could be 1 and 3 or 4 and 0 or any other random combination, than why would a stalled wagon be indicative of anything? If you want to use the "stalled wagon = scum" argument against joth, you have to acknowledge that he and I have a point about the likelyhood of 2 scum per timeline, and then your whole case on joth pretty much falls apart.

But in what way does the amount of scum have anything to do with anyone being scum?

Because if there's only one scum in the forward timeline then the "wagon stalled because joth is scum" argument doesn't work. Because the only scum would be joth.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: hypercube on May 17, 2021, 01:35:19 pm
Just want to point out the hypocrisy of "If we assume two scum" here while people are literally about to exile joth for assuming two scum. Because if, as Ash says, it could be 1 and 3 or 4 and 0 or any other random combination, than why would a stalled wagon be indicative of anything? If you want to use the "stalled wagon = scum" argument against joth, you have to acknowledge that he and I have a point about the likelyhood of 2 scum per timeline, and then your whole case on joth pretty much falls apart.

I think 2 scum/timeline is the most likely scenario. That's different from saying it's wrong to consider other options.

In any case my read on joth isn't based on him saying there are 2 scum/timeline - I was scumreading him for other reasons D1 and I think he overreacted to ash pushing him.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: Glooble on May 17, 2021, 01:38:00 pm
Just want to point out the hypocrisy of "If we assume two scum" here while people are literally about to exile joth for assuming two scum. Because if, as Ash says, it could be 1 and 3 or 4 and 0 or any other random combination, than why would a stalled wagon be indicative of anything? If you want to use the "stalled wagon = scum" argument against joth, you have to acknowledge that he and I have a point about the likelyhood of 2 scum per timeline, and then your whole case on joth pretty much falls apart.

I think 2 scum/timeline is the most likely scenario. That's different from saying it's wrong to consider other options.

In any case my read on joth isn't based on him saying there are 2 scum/timeline - I was scumreading him for other reasons D1 and I think he overreacted to ash pushing him.

That's fair. I guess I just don't see the defensiveness everyone else seems to be seeing from joth. And I am seeing this kind of bullying behavior from ash where he's trying to make people seem dumb for not taking his side, and that comes off way scummier to me than joth's defense.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: EFHW on May 17, 2021, 01:39:03 pm
I have to take issue with this idea that my not pointing out ash's mistake makes me scummy. I wasn't on during the period in question. Now that you point it out, I think it is quite strange that he posted an incorrect vc like that. No way to know if that was scummy or careless on his part. Why is it my responsibility more than anyone else's to point out his unannounced E-1?

PPE: 11
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: Glooble on May 17, 2021, 01:44:25 pm
I have to take issue with this idea that my not pointing out ash's mistake makes me scummy. I wasn't on during the period in question. Now that you point it out, I think it is quite strange that he posted an incorrect vc like that. No way to know if that was scummy or careless on his part. Why is it my responsibility more than anyone else's to point out his unannounced E-1?

PPE: 11

My initial thought was that you weren't on during the period in question, but then when you responded to me, you said you "didn't notice it". That, to me, implied that you'd seen the vote and just not noticed. Because if you hadn't been online, why wouldn't you have just said "I wasn't online"?
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: pingpongsam on May 17, 2021, 01:44:55 pm


Here we are with the absolutes that only scum can have. Why would we flip ash if Joth flips scum. It'd be a ballsy and unnecessary bus so I don't think we'd wager that chance until some investigative results indicated we should.

Quote
If I thought they would, I might consider embracing your 1v1...These 1v1s are basically always bad for town....I'm also not moving my vote.

So basically, if he thought this could work out to his advantage he'd take the bait. Also note the wishy washiness of the "almost" always statement. Instead of saying these are never good for town he's implying that maybe this one right here actually is.


I get what he's trying to say but how he says it seems telling to me. I don't see how anyone reads this as anything but scum. I'd like to see your interpretation of it, though.

I think you're completely misunderstanding this interaction. Joth was saying, "If I flip town, the town won't exile you." He was basically telling ash that he believes that if he accepted the one-on-one and Ash won, ash would find some way to weasel out of actually getting exiled, and given that he wouldn't be eligible to be exiled again until day 4 anyway, he'd have plenty of time to do it. In between we'd had all manner of night actions and things that would present a stronger case, or that scum!ash could spin as reasons not to follow through with town's promise to exile him if joth flipped town.

Well this interpretation is exactly what led me to consider that they might both be scum because it still reeks of knowing Ash's alignment. As town with ash coming in like this the arguments would appear more questioning than diminishing. Also, in the event they are both scum this comes off as a some Ericksonian hypnotism for everyone else.

I see this 1v1 as forcing us to choose at two forks. Fork 1: are either players likely scum? Fork 2: if so which one and why? if not who else is and why?

Call me lazy but I chose yes at Fork 1 and now maybe I am trying to logically rationalize an emotional decision in Fork 2.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: EFHW on May 17, 2021, 03:23:48 pm
I have to take issue with this idea that my not pointing out ash's mistake makes me scummy. I wasn't on during the period in question. Now that you point it out, I think it is quite strange that he posted an incorrect vc like that. No way to know if that was scummy or careless on his part. Why is it my responsibility more than anyone else's to point out his unannounced E-1?

PPE: 11

My initial thought was that you weren't on during the period in question, but then when you responded to me, you said you "didn't notice it". That, to me, implied that you'd seen the vote and just not noticed. Because if you hadn't been online, why wouldn't you have just said "I wasn't online"?

This seemed like kind of a nothing issue, so I didn't nail down the details until today. I did notice ash seeming not to know where I was on the joth issue, which seemed strange. But I figured he'd catch on. And I was probably reading that post after the correct vc had been posted. It wasn't on my radar at all that there was such a low number needed to exile. Should have been, but wasn't.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: WestCoastDidds on May 17, 2021, 04:05:15 pm

This ignores the E-1 elephant that's been standing in the room for some time now. Diverting from that is far scummier.
Quote
I literally donít understand what youíre saying here.

Can you tell me why there's been no hammer or intent to hammer if Joth is town? I see a sustained stalled E-1 as indicative of scum. Picking on the town who put him there is what I am calling scummy.

There's been no hammer or intent to hammer because it takes four to exile and there aren't four players who want to exile joth? Because he's town.

Boom! Solved it for ya.

That doesnít make any sense to me
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: WestCoastDidds on May 17, 2021, 04:06:44 pm
Also, though, only half the players in the game can vote and one of them is Galz, who has been MIA. So it's basically 4 out of 6 needed to exile right now, really out of 5, since joth isn't going to self-vote. That would stall literally any wagon. It's NAI.

Would it stall a wagon on town? If we assume 2 scum then that's only 2 town they need to be on wagon.

This is what Iím thinking but having a hard time articulating
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: WestCoastDidds on May 17, 2021, 04:10:07 pm
There WCD goes dropping the occasional reason for me to scumread them.

Probably when WCD is town anyway.

Sigh...

I just canít read her properly.

I know, right? It goes both ways. You and hyper are my original homies, but as opaque to me as when we started. :/
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: jotheonah on May 17, 2021, 04:14:38 pm

Here we are with the absolutes that only scum can have.

...

Quote
Also note the wishy washiness of the "almost" always statement. Instead of saying these are never good for town he's implying that maybe this one right here actually is.

So I guess I'm scummy if I deal in absolutes, but I'm also scummy if I'm "wishy washy"? Huh?
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: jotheonah on May 17, 2021, 04:15:43 pm


Here we are with the absolutes that only scum can have. Why would we flip ash if Joth flips scum. It'd be a ballsy and unnecessary bus so I don't think we'd wager that chance until some investigative results indicated we should.

Quote
If I thought they would, I might consider embracing your 1v1...These 1v1s are basically always bad for town....I'm also not moving my vote.

So basically, if he thought this could work out to his advantage he'd take the bait. Also note the wishy washiness of the "almost" always statement. Instead of saying these are never good for town he's implying that maybe this one right here actually is.


I get what he's trying to say but how he says it seems telling to me. I don't see how anyone reads this as anything but scum. I'd like to see your interpretation of it, though.

I think you're completely misunderstanding this interaction. Joth was saying, "If I flip town, the town won't exile you." He was basically telling ash that he believes that if he accepted the one-on-one and Ash won, ash would find some way to weasel out of actually getting exiled, and given that he wouldn't be eligible to be exiled again until day 4 anyway, he'd have plenty of time to do it. In between we'd had all manner of night actions and things that would present a stronger case, or that scum!ash could spin as reasons not to follow through with town's promise to exile him if joth flipped town.

yes, this!
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: jotheonah on May 17, 2021, 04:19:40 pm
can everyone just vote ash and end this horrible day once and for all?
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: pingpongsam on May 17, 2021, 05:11:57 pm

Here we are with the absolutes that only scum can have.

...

Quote
Also note the wishy washiness of the "almost" always statement. Instead of saying these are never good for town he's implying that maybe this one right here actually is.

So I guess I'm scummy if I deal in absolutes, but I'm also scummy if I'm "wishy washy"? Huh?

That's disingenuous to what I am saying. I'm saying that the way you are speaking implies hidden knowledge. In the one case you are certain there will be no retaliation if you are flipped. This makes sense if you flip scum. In the other case you could absolutely say that 1v1 is bad for town but here I see slight hedging suggesting that maybe in this case it wouldn't be as bad for town as you would like us to believe.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: ashersky on May 17, 2021, 10:54:54 pm
Vote Count 2.3:

Ashersky (2): Joth, scolapasta
Joth (1): WCD

Not Voting (11): EFHW, Ashersky, Dylan, Galzria, MiX, Eddie, chairs, hypercube, Glooble, PPS, Awaclus

With 7 alive on the ACTIVE TIMELINE, it takes 4 to Exile.
Day 2 starts now and ends Tuesday, May 18th at 4:55pm Forum Time.

Today the active timeline is the FORWARD TIMELINE We will remain in the FORWARD TIMELINE until the start of Day 3.
Only players from the currently active timeline may vote, or be voted for.

Here's the vote count I used to make my vote count that everyone is saying left EFHW off on purpose.  No EFHW voting there.  I just quote the mod's post and delete the formatting.

There was even this post later that I saw to ensure the VC was right:

Vote Count 2.3:

Ashersky (2): Joth, scolapasta
Joth(1): WCD

Not Voting (11): EFHW, Ashersky, Dylan, Galzria, MiX, Eddie, chairs, hypercube, Glooble, PPS, Awaclus

With 7 alive on the ACTIVE TIMELINE, it takes 4 to Exile.
Day 2 starts now and ends Tuesday, May 18th at 4:55pm Forum Time.

Today the active timeline is the FORWARD TIMELINE We will remain in the FORWARD TIMELINE until the start of Day 3.
Only players from the currently active timeline may vote, or be voted for.

VC 2.3 corrected. Don't do VCs at work kids...
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: ashersky on May 17, 2021, 10:55:34 pm
I need to do a proper reread and do some real scumhunting instead of letting ash distract me with his BS. Perhaps I'll have time today.

Still hoping to see this!

I should have time tomorrow.

FYI, you are at E-1.  Like a real one, because I'm already voting.

After the next vote count, I posted this.  I was the first player to point out the E-1.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: ashersky on May 17, 2021, 10:56:31 pm
I'd like to invite joth (and any other players who would like) to continue to try to make a case, any case, that I am not town.  It's super hilarious.  I get why many may not understand why, but it is.

I did make a point that everyone ignored, so Iíll say it again- putting joth to E-1 and saying it was E-2 was scummy. Whatís your defense of that?

When did I say it was E-2?  You could provide a quote to help me there.  The only post I see is where I say it was E-1.

Also, I just posted the mod posts I quoted to make my VCs.  EFHW's vote wasn't there.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: ashersky on May 17, 2021, 10:57:04 pm
I am Galz's QT partner.  He's been just as inactive there as here.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: ashersky on May 17, 2021, 10:57:42 pm
He's basically given a real life reason for missing D1, said he'd be around today (but hasn't), and that's it.  Very few posts at all.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: ashersky on May 17, 2021, 10:59:06 pm
Galz, Dylan, or scola voting joth is the only way we're getting an exile.  It's up to any of you three at this point.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: ashersky on May 17, 2021, 10:59:36 pm
About 18 hours to go, right?
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: scolapasta on May 17, 2021, 11:10:22 pm
OK, I'm switching my vote to see if this goes anywhere:

Vote: WCD

Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: Dylan32 on May 18, 2021, 01:16:11 am
Intent to hammer well before the deadline tomorrow unless people want to switch to Didds.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: WestCoastDidds on May 18, 2021, 08:08:02 am
OK, I'm switching my vote to see if this goes anywhere:

Vote: WCD

Scola, this is a bad idea. I know we have been at odds in the last few games, but this isnít one of them. At the very least, odds would have us on the together this game so trust that even if you donít trust me.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: Uncleeurope on May 18, 2021, 08:12:01 am
OK, I'm switching my vote to see if this goes anywhere:

Vote: WCD

Scola, this is a bad idea. I know we have been at odds in the last few games, but this isnít one of them. At the very least, odds would have us on the together this game so trust that even if you donít trust me.

Okay, Iím willing to trust you.

Didds is town.

Glad we got that sorted early.

At least one productive thing happened today.

I am now happier with Jothís death than Diddsí.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: Glooble on May 18, 2021, 09:20:40 am
I'd like to invite joth (and any other players who would like) to continue to try to make a case, any case, that I am not town.  It's super hilarious.  I get why many may not understand why, but it is.

I did make a point that everyone ignored, so Iíll say it again- putting joth to E-1 and saying it was E-2 was scummy. Whatís your defense of that?

When did I say it was E-2?  You could provide a quote to help me there.  The only post I see is where I say it was E-1.

Also, I just posted the mod posts I quoted to make my VCs.  EFHW's vote wasn't there.

You are splitting hairs. Putting joth at E-1 and not announcing that you were doing that is scummy. Posting an outdated vote count before your own vote clearly implies the belief that you were putting him to E-2. You didn't say "that's E-2" but the fact that you didn't say "that's E-1" is just as bad.

And this, by the way, is exactly the kind of bad faith argument you've been making against joth all day. You know full well what I meant, you chose to interpret my accusation overly literally in an attempt to make me look bad.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: Uncleeurope on May 18, 2021, 09:41:08 am
I doubt any scum would post an outdated count as a nefarious plan.

Does that mean Ash it Town? No. But I doubt we can pull that much alignment out of that play.

Maybe thatís just me, though.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: ashersky on May 18, 2021, 09:48:05 am
I'd like to invite joth (and any other players who would like) to continue to try to make a case, any case, that I am not town.  It's super hilarious.  I get why many may not understand why, but it is.

I did make a point that everyone ignored, so Iíll say it again- putting joth to E-1 and saying it was E-2 was scummy. Whatís your defense of that?

When did I say it was E-2?  You could provide a quote to help me there.  The only post I see is where I say it was E-1.

Also, I just posted the mod posts I quoted to make my VCs.  EFHW's vote wasn't there.

You are splitting hairs. Putting joth at E-1 and not announcing that you were doing that is scummy. Posting an outdated vote count before your own vote clearly implies the belief that you were putting him to E-2. You didn't say "that's E-2" but the fact that you didn't say "that's E-1" is just as bad.

And this, by the way, is exactly the kind of bad faith argument you've been making against joth all day. You know full well what I meant, you chose to interpret my accusation overly literally in an attempt to make me look bad.

I didn't consciously think about what E my vote was, just that it wasn't the hammer, and that in itself would be out of character for me.  I definitely didn't know it was E-1 or E-2, nor did I particularly care.  Is that the answer you wanted to hear?  I think it hurts your case even more.

Does me making a "bad faith argument" have any impact on my alignment?  I disagree with your characterization, but I think the question is a fair one for you to ask yourself.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: ashersky on May 18, 2021, 09:49:17 am
Also, per Glooble, every vote ever cast by anyone ever is an unspoken "that's E-X!" announcement.  10 to Exile and first voter?

That's E-9 everyone!
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: ashersky on May 18, 2021, 09:50:37 am
Okay, maybe that was a little childish.  Just some innocent fun though.  Sorry.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: Glooble on May 18, 2021, 09:55:54 am
Can no one else see him scrambling?

Announcing E-1 is standard practice here, it has been since I started playing here.

I don't buy for one second that ash places a vote without thinking about the size of the wagon, as either alignment.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: EFHW on May 18, 2021, 10:24:32 am
@ash, what's your real reason for tunneling joth? The "he said there are absolutely 2 scum per timeline" argument hasn't made sense to anyone.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: Uncleeurope on May 18, 2021, 10:28:13 am
@ash, what's your real reason for tunneling joth? The "he said there are absolutely 2 scum per timeline" argument hasn't made sense to anyone.

I like this question.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: EFHW on May 18, 2021, 10:29:18 am
unvote while waiting for his answer.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: MiX on May 18, 2021, 10:59:37 am
So let's see if I understand what's happening...ash and joth are in a 1v1 caused by ash, ash wants joth dead, joth doesn't want to die and is pushing ash as self-pres, EFHW was voting joth, Glooble is chainsaw defending joth by pushing both ash and EFHW, Dylan wants to hammer, scola...something to do with Didds, Uncle is mediating...hmm, pps is scumreading joth? Is that everyone relevant?

When's deadline?
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: WestCoastDidds on May 18, 2021, 11:01:36 am
So let's see if I understand what's happening...ash and joth are in a 1v1 caused by ash, ash wants joth dead, joth doesn't want to die and is pushing ash as self-pres, EFHW was voting joth, Glooble is chainsaw defending joth by pushing both ash and EFHW, Dylan wants to hammer, scola...something to do with Didds, Uncle is mediating...hmm, pps is scumreading joth? Is that everyone relevant?

When's deadline?

Yes. Deadline is later today at 4:55
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: MiX on May 18, 2021, 11:04:20 am
So let's see if I understand what's happening...ash and joth are in a 1v1 caused by ash, ash wants joth dead, joth doesn't want to die and is pushing ash as self-pres, EFHW was voting joth, Glooble is chainsaw defending joth by pushing both ash and EFHW, Dylan wants to hammer, scola...something to do with Didds, Uncle is mediating...hmm, pps is scumreading joth? Is that everyone relevant?

When's deadline?

Yes. Deadline is later today at 4:55

In 6 hours? Damn.

Yeah joth should be flipped, a lot of the day has been around him, and not in a townie way.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: pingpongsam on May 18, 2021, 11:11:55 am
@ash, what's your real reason for tunneling joth? The "he said there are absolutely 2 scum per timeline" argument hasn't made sense to anyone.

This is essentially asking for a claim, tho, let's drop the pretense. I really prefer to trust our town PRs when they are self evident without forcing obvlaims for scum to work around.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: MiX on May 18, 2021, 11:14:08 am
@ash, what's your real reason for tunneling joth? The "he said there are absolutely 2 scum per timeline" argument hasn't made sense to anyone.

This is essentially asking for a claim, tho, let's drop the pretense. I really prefer to trust our town PRs when they are self evident without forcing obvlaims for scum to work around.

It's actually nothing, because ash couldn't do an action N1.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: scolapasta on May 18, 2021, 11:40:25 am
OK, I'm switching my vote to see if this goes anywhere:

Vote: WCD

Scola, this is a bad idea. I know we have been at odds in the last few games, but this isnít one of them. At the very least, odds would have us on the together this game so trust that even if you donít trust me.

Odds don't really work that way, assuming you mean because we have been on opposite sides the last few games.

Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: scolapasta on May 18, 2021, 11:43:40 am
So all these joth voters - are you committed to vote ash D4 as was the suggested 1v1?

If not, then whatever. If you're going to vote on the manufactured 1v1 you should vote for the one who manufactured it.

I still don't get why ash did that (either as town or scum*), have asked, and gotten no suitable answer.

* unless it's the get joth exiled and swing away from getting voted D4, hence my opening question

I'm currently more inclined to think WCD and EFHW are scum, to be honest.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: scolapasta on May 18, 2021, 11:45:20 am
So all these joth voters - are you committed to vote ash D4 as was the suggested 1v1?

If not, then whatever. If you're going to vote on the manufactured 1v1 you should vote for the one who manufactured it.

I still don't get why ash did that (either as town or scum*), have asked, and gotten no suitable answer.

* unless it's the get joth exiled and swing away from getting voted D4, hence my opening question

I'm currently more inclined to think WCD and EFHW are scum, to be honest.

And for those wondering why, no great reason, which is why I'm not making a case against either of them. Just my gut, which is enough for me for a psuedo D1.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: Uncleeurope on May 18, 2021, 12:06:30 pm
So all these joth voters - are you committed to vote ash D4 as was the suggested 1v1?

If not, then whatever. If you're going to vote on the manufactured 1v1 you should vote for the one who manufactured it.

I still don't get why ash did that (either as town or scum*), have asked, and gotten no suitable answer.

* unless it's the get joth exiled and swing away from getting voted D4, hence my opening question

I'm currently more inclined to think WCD and EFHW are scum, to be honest.

WCD? Nah...

EFHW? Maybe?
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: jotheonah on May 18, 2021, 12:15:40 pm
Prod request: Galz
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: WestCoastDidds on May 18, 2021, 12:50:27 pm
So all these joth voters - are you committed to vote ash D4 as was the suggested 1v1?

If not, then whatever. If you're going to vote on the manufactured 1v1 you should vote for the one who manufactured it.

I still don't get why ash did that (either as town or scum*), have asked, and gotten no suitable answer.

* unless it's the get joth exiled and swing away from getting voted D4, hence my opening question

I'm currently more inclined to think WCD and EFHW are scum, to be honest.

When you say " all these Joth voters", you mean me and Ash, and for awhile EFHW.  There isn't a bevy of people you're talking about.  I voted for Joth in my testing the FT people, but I kept my vote on him because of the way that he responded to Ash, and especially because of Glooble's super-vigorous defense which I think is VERY STRANGE and not at all townie unless Glooble know something he isn't telling us.  I am not at all interested in the 1v1 other than the reaction that it has provoked.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: WestCoastDidds on May 18, 2021, 12:52:48 pm
OK, I'm switching my vote to see if this goes anywhere:

Vote: WCD

Scola, this is a bad idea. I know we have been at odds in the last few games, but this isnít one of them. At the very least, odds would have us on the together this game so trust that even if you donít trust me.

Odds don't really work that way, assuming you mean because we have been on opposite sides the last few games.

There are more town than scum. It seems like there is a better chance that we are both town than not. But numbers are not my jam. I was really just saying we have lots of reasons to distrust one another since we have each been engaged in active deception for the last 6 weeks, but its not helpful in this game for us to start from that place.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: EFHW on May 18, 2021, 12:55:15 pm
Same as Didds here. The 1:1 is not why I voted joth. I was scumreading him before then. I unvoted to incentivize ash to actually spell out a reason that makes sense, which would help me to townread ash and continue on my way.

Glooble's defense has become so out there that his being partners with joth is seeming less likely.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: scolapasta on May 18, 2021, 12:56:04 pm
Well, those 3 and whoever (Dylan?) turns out to be the hammer. My point is if we exile joth and he's town, and then don't follow through with Ash, then scum!ash gets exactly what he wants.

Part of why I decided not to be part of the 1v1 anymore (but if I switch back, will vote for the one who manufactured it)

What is so strange about Gloobie's defense of joth? And why not mine as well. I think both of us have basically said the defense is not based on knowing joth is town, but on the fact that the attacks on him are completely made up BS.

It's like if I said, I'm voting for WCD because on D1 she flat out said "I am scum". So everyone should vote for her, because she said that and this game is so easy. (and yes this is an exaggeration, but not by much)
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: pingpongsam on May 18, 2021, 01:16:13 pm
@ash, what's your real reason for tunneling joth? The "he said there are absolutely 2 scum per timeline" argument hasn't made sense to anyone.

This is essentially asking for a claim, tho, let's drop the pretense. I really prefer to trust our town PRs when they are self evident without forcing obvlaims for scum to work around.

It's actually nothing, because ash couldn't do an action N1.

Solid argument, can't disagree there. Wish someone had brought that up earlier, haha. I was literally assuming Joth to be scum because ash made a statement suggesting he had results. My brain didn't fill in that blank, though. Was the rest of my analysis deeply colored by that assumption? Yes. Is it thus wrong? Not necessarily.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: Dylan32 on May 18, 2021, 01:27:54 pm
Huh, interesting unvote there, EFHW.

From BSG season 1:

Also, everyone assuming exactly 3 cylon-aligned, or most likely it's three, or whatever, just stop.

14 players opens up a lot of space.  With third parties and RMM interactions, I'd put the minimum at 4 and maximum at 6.5 non-town players.  How many of those are Cylon-aligned?  Can't know what unless you are cylon-aligned, and maybe not even then.

Using these assumptions only serves to obfuscate.

At least Ash is consistent. In that moment of BSG, no one really made a big deal about this, so it didn't become a main point in the conversation, so I don't think this was something scum!Ash would have thought of to be like, "Hey, I made that comment last game as town, I should go all in on this view to look like my town self."
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: WestCoastDidds on May 18, 2021, 01:28:45 pm

What is so strange about Gloobie's defense of joth? And why not mine as well. I think both of us have basically said the defense is not based on knowing joth is town, but on the fact that the attacks on him are completely made up BS.

For me, it's his degree of certainty.  Most of the RT people are about as active as the FT line people were yesterday, with the exception of Glooble who is ALL IN on team Joth. I think it reads much like more like he has a result than he is a partner.  Which maybe is a reason to move my vote, but I wish that Joth was making arguments with the same vigor of Glooble.

I like Ash's idea of a Western-style shoot out in terms of its metaphor, but I don't see that it makes him or Joth necessarily scum. If I am going to switch my vote today...I am willing to vote for Galz, since we wouldn't be losing much if he's he's town and there is at least some chance he is scum.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: scolapasta on May 18, 2021, 01:32:09 pm
Huh, interesting unvote there, EFHW.

From BSG season 1:

Also, everyone assuming exactly 3 cylon-aligned, or most likely it's three, or whatever, just stop.

14 players opens up a lot of space.  With third parties and RMM interactions, I'd put the minimum at 4 and maximum at 6.5 non-town players.  How many of those are Cylon-aligned?  Can't know what unless you are cylon-aligned, and maybe not even then.

Using these assumptions only serves to obfuscate.

At least Ash is consistent. In that moment of BSG, no one really made a big deal about this, so it didn't become a main point in the conversation, so I don't think this was something scum!Ash would have thought of to be like, "Hey, I made that comment last game as town, I should go all in on this view to look like my town self."

In that example, it was not only reasonable to assume 3 (as a starting point, which is all we are saying here), it also proved to be correct.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: Glooble on May 18, 2021, 01:34:51 pm

What is so strange about Gloobie's defense of joth? And why not mine as well. I think both of us have basically said the defense is not based on knowing joth is town, but on the fact that the attacks on him are completely made up BS.

For me, it's his degree of certainty.  Most of the RT people are about as active as the FT line people were yesterday, with the exception of Glooble who is ALL IN on team Joth. I think it reads much like more like he has a result than he is a partner.  Which maybe is a reason to move my vote, but I wish that Joth was making arguments with the same vigor of Glooble.

I like Ash's idea of a Western-style shoot out in terms of its metaphor, but I don't see that it makes him or Joth necessarily scum. If I am going to switch my vote today...I am willing to vote for Galz, since we wouldn't be losing much if he's he's town and there is at least some chance he is scum.

This might just be a twin thing? I'm going to feel very dumb if joth flips scum, but I don't have a "joth is town" result. It's just a really strong gut feeling about a player I know pretty well. It could absolutely be wrong.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: Dylan32 on May 18, 2021, 01:36:01 pm
Right, so my comment isn't about the accuracy of the comment, but merely that town!Ash made a similar assertion last game as to what he did here.

ppe 1
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: scolapasta on May 18, 2021, 01:37:48 pm
I get that.

If we are looking at ash actions from that game though, let's also remember how sold he was on his plan to exile himself and how pr town that would be, only to later find out a) it would not really have been, b) he thought he was recruitable scum.

Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: MiX on May 18, 2021, 01:38:34 pm
@ash, what's your real reason for tunneling joth? The "he said there are absolutely 2 scum per timeline" argument hasn't made sense to anyone.

This is essentially asking for a claim, tho, let's drop the pretense. I really prefer to trust our town PRs when they are self evident without forcing obvlaims for scum to work around.

It's actually nothing, because ash couldn't do an action N1.

Solid argument, can't disagree there. Wish someone had brought that up earlier, haha. I was literally assuming Joth to be scum because ash made a statement suggesting he had results. My brain didn't fill in that blank, though. Was the rest of my analysis deeply colored by that assumption? Yes. Is it thus wrong? Not necessarily.

Lol wait really? I think you need to get to know ash better then...

I mean, I only realized EFHW's question wasn't a PR question when I wrote that post, but still.

Huh, interesting unvote there, EFHW.

From BSG season 1:

Also, everyone assuming exactly 3 cylon-aligned, or most likely it's three, or whatever, just stop.

14 players opens up a lot of space.  With third parties and RMM interactions, I'd put the minimum at 4 and maximum at 6.5 non-town players.  How many of those are Cylon-aligned?  Can't know what unless you are cylon-aligned, and maybe not even then.

Using these assumptions only serves to obfuscate.

At least Ash is consistent. In that moment of BSG, no one really made a big deal about this, so it didn't become a main point in the conversation, so I don't think this was something scum!Ash would have thought of to be like, "Hey, I made that comment last game as town, I should go all in on this view to look like my town self."

I mean uuuuuh ash does this "never assume literally anything whatsoever at all ever" position every game.

Also note that assuming 4 non-town was correct. It's almost like things have to be balanced if they're good.

I get that.

If we are looking at ash actions from that game though, let's also remember how sold he was on his plan to exile himself and how pr town that would be, only to later find out a) it would not really have been, b) he thought he was recruitable scum.

Imagine playing with someone that can convince themselves they are of a different alignment.

Let's not talk about BSG!ash I have a lot of mean words about that guy.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: MiX on May 18, 2021, 01:39:49 pm
Ash is the master of "let's consider literally every single possibility remotely possible". Except who's scum, I guess.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: Dylan32 on May 18, 2021, 01:52:19 pm
Yeah, again, no comment on whether I think he's right or not this game. But if anything, I think it's fair to say that this is consistent with town!Ash. However, if you want to draw the conclusion that follows from your (MiX and scola) observations, one would guess that Joth is also town. So who would you think scum would be in that case?
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: scolapasta on May 18, 2021, 01:55:11 pm
Yeah, again, no comment on whether I think he's right or not this game. But if anything, I think it's fair to say that this is consistent with town!Ash. However, if you want to draw the conclusion that follows from your (MiX and scola) observations, one would guess that Joth is also town. So who would you think scum would be in that case?

Look at my vote for my answer. (or my other post where i said WCD or EFHW)
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: ashersky on May 18, 2021, 02:00:17 pm
Phone posting late at night.

I think jothís reaction to my pressure was inconsistent with what I expect from town!joth.  I do disagree with his argument, I do think heís backtracked on that stance after pressure was brought to bear, and I think that movement is more likely from someone who started arguing an ďopinionĒ that may have in fact been based on knowledge he could only have as non-town.  Maybe it is 2 per timeline and he knows that.  Maybe it isnít but he really wants us to think that.

So, it is a read.  More than I have on anyone else.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: ashersky on May 18, 2021, 02:01:21 pm
You can force a claim from me, I guess, but Iím worried the timing could go badly.  Iím probably not awake at deadline.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: ashersky on May 18, 2021, 02:02:50 pm
I think there is also something to joth sitting at E-1 for many days, although the smaller player pool could affect that.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: ashersky on May 18, 2021, 02:05:38 pm
I think Glooble is more likely to be wrong than a partner at this point.  Unless itís a 2-person team, with a weird wincon or something.  Or a partner who went in to defend early not thinking itís take so much to succeed and then worried that bailing would look worse.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: WestCoastDidds on May 18, 2021, 02:06:38 pm
Deadline is in 3 hours
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: jotheonah on May 18, 2021, 02:16:55 pm
Alright, I'm going to try to get Vote: Galz going.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: WestCoastDidds on May 18, 2021, 02:25:25 pm
Okay, I will trust Glooble for a minute or two.

vote: Galz
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: scolapasta on May 18, 2021, 02:29:36 pm
I think voting for someone on D1 that is not around feels wrong.

Add to that that Galz did the lurk as scum in dwarf mafia. Would he do it again the very next game?

Not sure how to read the two votes on him.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: Dylan32 on May 18, 2021, 02:29:53 pm
Like others have already mentioned, Joth hanging out at E-1 for so long could suggest he's scum. It could also suggest that at least part of the scum team has been extremely inactive and not pushing on an easy misexile. I think there are more informative exile options than Galz, but I wouldn't hate that exile if that's what we do. The problem is that based on this, Galz would have an above average chance of being scum from town!Joth's perspective (I think), but Galz is also one of the easiest alt wagons for scum!Joth to push out of self-preservation right now.

Joth, if not Ash or Galz, who would you want to see exiled instead?

I'll be back a couple times before the deadline, and I'm willing to move to a couple different people to get an exile through.

ppe 2
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: scolapasta on May 18, 2021, 02:31:11 pm
I was about to ask a similar question to ash:

ash, if not joth, would you consider anyone else? or are you staying on josh no matter what?
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: Uncleeurope on May 18, 2021, 02:48:55 pm
We learn a lot more about this waste of a day if Joth dies.

Iím also not upset about Joth not RBing people tonight.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: Uncleeurope on May 18, 2021, 02:49:49 pm
Like, we learn a lot about Glooble, Scolpasta, Ash, and even a bit about some other people with a Joth flip.

Maybe thatís silly talk, but still.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: jotheonah on May 18, 2021, 02:53:30 pm

Joth, if not Ash or Galz, who would you want to see exiled instead?


Of the 8 options available, who would you like besides yourself and the two options you've voted for?

You are sure expecting me to have a lot of scum reads.

Anyway the answer is Didds.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: EFHW on May 18, 2021, 03:14:40 pm
vote: joth. Going to see this through.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: jotheonah on May 18, 2021, 03:15:51 pm
was that the hammer?
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: EFHW on May 18, 2021, 03:16:02 pm
Should be E-2, I believe. Was E-1 before and Didds has moved off now.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: WestCoastDidds on May 18, 2021, 03:16:32 pm
I think voting for someone on D1 that is not around feels wrong.

Add to that that Galz did the lurk as scum in dwarf mafia. Would he do it again the very next game?

Not sure how to read the two votes on him.

He has no incentive not to.  He won as scum because he made himself scarce. If you are willing to give him a pass for not being around, why would he bother?
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: WestCoastDidds on May 18, 2021, 03:17:31 pm
I will move back to Joth if that is what it takes to get an exile.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: WestCoastDidds on May 18, 2021, 03:20:21 pm
Deadline is in an 90ish minutes

Joth (2): Ash, EFHW
WCD (2): Dylan, Scola
Galz (2): Joth, WCD

Not voting: Galz

Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: WestCoastDidds on May 18, 2021, 03:29:43 pm
If I move to Joth, and Joth moves to me, it is 3-3.

Ash isn't going to be around, Galz is probably not going to be around.  Scola, Dylan....are either of you willing to vote for Joth? EFHW, are you willing to vote for me?

If we can't get an exile off, that seems to be the least helpful option. 

Am I reading as scummier than Joth? I am not sure that we should have any more claiming since scum benefits way more from that than we do, but I can tell you all that it is better for town if I am not exiled.

Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: Dylan32 on May 18, 2021, 03:32:07 pm

Joth, if not Ash or Galz, who would you want to see exiled instead?


Of the 8 options available, who would you like besides yourself and the two options you've voted for?

You are sure expecting me to have a lot of scum reads.

Anyway the answer is Didds.

Nah, I wouldn't necessarily expect every name you listed to be a scumread since you're in a position of self-preservation. I just wanted to get names from you.

ppe
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: Dylan32 on May 18, 2021, 03:34:15 pm
Vote: Joth

E-1
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: MiX on May 18, 2021, 03:34:24 pm
Deadline is in an 90ish minutes

Joth (2): Ash, EFHW
WCD (2): Dylan, Scola
Galz (2): Joth, WCD

Not voting: Galz

Interesting wagons. Someone's not on this VC, who is it?

Galz seems to be joth's counterwagon...great, another game where Galz lurks. Is there any game he's actually around for the first few days?

My gut tells me Dylan or scola are scum. Hey you two, what do you think of each other? Surely you can reach each other better than other people, right? Please?
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: MiX on May 18, 2021, 03:35:01 pm
Deadline is in an 90ish minutes

Joth (2): Ash, EFHW
WCD (2): Dylan, Scola
Galz (2): Joth, WCD

Not voting: Galz

Interesting wagons. Someone's not on this VC, who is it?

Ah, gkrieg. Uh...yeah, ignore me, I just stuck to my brain that there's 8 of each timeline.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: Dylan32 on May 18, 2021, 03:39:36 pm
Deadline is in an 90ish minutes

Joth (2): Ash, EFHW
WCD (2): Dylan, Scola
Galz (2): Joth, WCD

Not voting: Galz

Interesting wagons. Someone's not on this VC, who is it?

Galz seems to be joth's counterwagon...great, another game where Galz lurks. Is there any game he's actually around for the first few days?

My gut tells me Dylan or scola are scum. Hey you two, what do you think of each other? Surely you can reach each other better than other people, right? Please?

Earlier I was reading scola as town for reasons. Later I was less sure for other reasons. Part of my vote for Joth is because that flip will inform whether which set of reasons were more well grounded.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: scolapasta on May 18, 2021, 03:42:33 pm
Deadline is in an 90ish minutes

Joth (2): Ash, EFHW
WCD (2): Dylan, Scola
Galz (2): Joth, WCD

Not voting: Galz

Interesting wagons. Someone's not on this VC, who is it?

Galz seems to be joth's counterwagon...great, another game where Galz lurks. Is there any game he's actually around for the first few days?

My gut tells me Dylan or scola are scum. Hey you two, what do you think of each other? Surely you can reach each other better than other people, right? Please?

Earlier I was reading scola as town for reasons. Later I was less sure for other reasons. Part of my vote for Joth is because that flip will inform whether which set of reasons were more well grounded.


I townread Dylan.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: jotheonah on May 18, 2021, 03:45:29 pm
Vote: WCD
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: jotheonah on May 18, 2021, 03:46:26 pm
Thatís E-1.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: scolapasta on May 18, 2021, 03:48:16 pm
Thatís E-1.

It's not, though.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: WestCoastDidds on May 18, 2021, 03:48:26 pm
Nah, Dylan moved to you.

so Joth (3): Ash, EFHW, Dylan
Galz (1): WCD
WCD: Scola, Joth

Not voting: Glaz

Do I need to bother with the intent since he's already claimed?

Intent to hammer
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: scolapasta on May 18, 2021, 03:49:23 pm
Galz not being around is really hamstringing things.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: jotheonah on May 18, 2021, 03:50:17 pm
Moments left so let me make a case on Didds.

Sheís been pretty quiet, has basically tried to stay out of the spotlight while doing her nice-to-everyone thing (which is NAI). But something about how she jumped on my wagon feels scummyó like she was trying to keep her options open as long as possible and then jumped on when it seemed like it really needed a push.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: jotheonah on May 18, 2021, 03:51:02 pm
Wait, Didds isnít on my wagon? Or she got on and then got off?
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: jotheonah on May 18, 2021, 03:52:06 pm
Oh well. Itís been a bit since Iíve been the D1 exile (sort of). It happens. Itís been fun playing with you all. Hope you have better luck finding scum on future days.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: WestCoastDidds on May 18, 2021, 03:52:58 pm
Wait, Didds isnít on my wagon? Or she got on and then got off?

I followed you to Galz...
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: jotheonah on May 18, 2021, 03:54:01 pm
Wait, Didds isnít on my wagon? Or she got on and then got off?

I followed you to Galz...

See? Opportunistic! Keep an eye on this one.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: jotheonah on May 18, 2021, 03:54:23 pm
How about No exile? You all wanna no exile?
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: WestCoastDidds on May 18, 2021, 03:55:47 pm
I am not pleased with Scola saying that he is unwilling to consider a Galz exile.  I am also not pleased that he is being stubborn about not voting in any way that helps us consolidate.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: MiX on May 18, 2021, 03:56:11 pm
Wait, Didds isnít on my wagon? Or she got on and then got off?

I followed you to Galz...

See? Opportunistic! Keep an eye on this one.

I laughed. Are you scumreading this move from Didds?
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: WestCoastDidds on May 18, 2021, 04:00:21 pm
How about No exile? You all wanna no exile?

Hey, kettle. Opportunistic much?
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: jotheonah on May 18, 2021, 04:00:51 pm
Wait, Didds isnít on my wagon? Or she got on and then got off?

I followed you to Galz...

See? Opportunistic! Keep an eye on this one.

I laughed. Are you scumreading this move from Didds?

Kind of? This late in the game you canít really tell ďearnest town doing what it takes to get an exileĒ from ďopportunistic scum doing what it takes to get an exileĒ.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: jotheonah on May 18, 2021, 04:01:33 pm
How about No exile? You all wanna no exile?

Hey, kettle. Opportunistic much?

Hey Iím desperately trying to save my butt. Whatís your excuse? :P
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: WestCoastDidds on May 18, 2021, 04:07:17 pm
I was choosing to trust Glooble rather than being opportunistic. 

I don't really know what to respond to since your entire case is that my voting has been opportunistic, but there is no evidence to support that
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: WestCoastDidds on May 18, 2021, 04:07:56 pm
Scola is my biggest scumread now, but I know it is too late for that.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: jotheonah on May 18, 2021, 04:12:30 pm
Scola is my biggest scumread now, but I know it is too late for that.

Never say never! Iíll opportunistically jump to scola with you!
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: jotheonah on May 18, 2021, 04:16:01 pm
Vote: scolapasta
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: WestCoastDidds on May 18, 2021, 04:32:04 pm
Scola is my biggest scumread now, but I know it is too late for that.

Never say never! Iíll opportunistically jump to scola with you!

Ha! You are the cutest and I adore you.

Vote: Joth
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: Swowl on May 18, 2021, 04:49:12 pm
Vote Count 2.Final:

Joth (4): Ashersky, EFHW, Dylan32, WCD
WestCoastDidds (1): scolapasta
scolapasta (1): Joth

Not Voting (8): Galzria, MiX, Eddie, chairs, hypercube, Glooble, PPS, Awaclus

With 7 alive on the ACTIVE TIMELINE, it took 4 to Exile.
Night 2 starts now and ends in 48 hours - That is May 20th at 4:55pm Forum Time.
Night 2 actions are due within 36 hours!

Tonight the active timeline is the FORWARD TIMELINE We will remain in the FORWARD TIMELINE until the start of Day 3.


THREAD LOCKED!
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: Swowl on May 18, 2021, 04:49:33 pm
*flavor here*

Joth has been exiled. They were John G., the Mafia Aligned Godfather, 1 Shot Strongman.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Night 2
Post by: Swowl on May 20, 2021, 07:30:26 pm
Work decided to be annoying. Gonna be an hour or two (or if LL logs on). Sorry.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Night 2
Post by: Swowl on May 21, 2021, 01:02:44 am
Everyone wakes up to a tattoo on their arm that says "Sorry for the delay...."
They also notice that someone is missing in their midst....


Chairs has died at night! They were Michael Townson, the Town Aligned Modified Motion Detector.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Night 2
Post by: Swowl on May 21, 2021, 01:02:53 am
Vote Count 3.0:

Not Voting (12): Awaclus, MiX, hypercube, PPS, Eddie, Glooble, EFHW, WCD, scolapasta, Galzria, Ashersky, Dylan32

With 6 alive on the ACTIVE TIMELINE, it takes 4 to Exile.
Day 3 starts now and ends Friday, May 28th at 1:05am Forum Time.

Today the active timeline is the REVERSE TIMELINE. We will remain in the REVERSE TIMELINE until the start of Day 2.
Only players from the currently active timeline may vote, or be voted for.

THREAD UNLOCKED!
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Night 2
Post by: Uncleeurope on May 21, 2021, 01:49:52 am
Who we got here for realsies?

Me/MiX/PPS/Glooble/Awaclus/hypercube?

That looks right.

Glooble really wanted Joth to live.

Thatís awkward...

That was also a day 1 scum read from me, I am rarely wrong on those.

Vote: PPS

Whoops.

Eh, Iím too lazy to fix it, Iíll leave that there for now.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Night 2
Post by: Dylan32 on May 21, 2021, 02:46:47 am
Who we got here for realsies?

Me/MiX/PPS/Glooble/Awaclus/hypercube?

That looks right.

Glooble really wanted Joth to live.

Thatís awkward...

That was also a day 1 scum read from me, I am rarely wrong on those.

Vote: PPS

Whoops.

Eh, Iím too lazy to fix it, Iíll leave that there for now.

So PPS was scumreading joth most of yesterday. Do you think that came from scum!PPS?
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Night 2
Post by: MiX on May 21, 2021, 06:06:49 am
So joth was scum. And godfather no less, might mean we should use math's info now.

Of people in this timeline, I can't help but notice how uncle was treating joth. It felt kinda partner-y. But I can't say I was paying close attention to the game, for D1 and D2 I was playing a practice game for champs, and that took most of my mafia time.

We can do this first:

Vote: Uncle
Vote: ash
Vote: EFHW
Vote: Didds
Vote: Dylan
Vote: scola
Vote: Galz
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Night 2
Post by: Glooble on May 21, 2021, 06:23:35 am
Well this is a bit awkward.

So thereís me, Awaclus, MiX, and cube to me wagon and alive and Eddie and pps off-wagon and alive.

If we could assume one on/ one off, it would make the most sense to exile pps or Eddie for a 50/50 shot at scum. But scum!Joth was pushing so hard for that assumption that makes me think itís likely not true. But if not that, then what?

Iím going to make a chart to summarize my feelings

No. Of scum in timeline

0- no. I refuse to believe a non-bastard game would be designed like that
1- probably on wagon, so Me, Awaclus, MiX, or cube are the best votes
2- would have to be either 1 on 1 off of both off, so definitely exile pps or Eddie today
3- from my perspective, knowing Iím town, this would mean either the entire rest of the wagon is scum or pps and Eddie are both scum (plus one more.) voting pps or Eddie still makes the most sense. This applies to any town on-wagon.
4- weíve already lost

So it seems to me very logical to vote off-wagon today. Also, though, if one townie votes for another townie, scum can quick misexile if they want to, so it seems like a day not to vote until youíre pretty sure youíre right.

PPE: MiX
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Night 2
Post by: MiX on May 21, 2021, 06:38:44 am
We're 6, right? Not enough for quickhammer.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Night 2
Post by: Glooble on May 21, 2021, 06:43:43 am
We're 6, right? Not enough for quickhammer.

It takes 4 to exile. So if one townie votes another townie, scum can pile on and exile them.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Night 2
Post by: MiX on May 21, 2021, 07:00:47 am
We're 6, right? Not enough for quickhammer.

It takes 4 to exile. So if one townie votes another townie, scum can pile on and exile them.

If there's 3 scum in this timeline, sure.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Night 2
Post by: Glooble on May 21, 2021, 07:09:41 am
We're 6, right? Not enough for quickhammer.

It takes 4 to exile. So if one townie votes another townie, scum can pile on and exile them.

If there's 3 scum in this timeline, sure.

Well, joth seemed very invested in us thinking there were two, so Iím suddenly much more opened to other options.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Night 2
Post by: WestCoastDidds on May 21, 2021, 08:21:56 am
Good morning! Ah, MiX, if you were busy practicing for champs does that mean you didnít do the dance (cha cha cha) of catching scum? I was so hoping there was some celebration.

Chairs and gkrieg night kills. Both people people who havenít been playing a lot recently but did quite frequently before. PPS would know their play style better than Eddie. Iíd vote there, if I got to vote.

On wagon, Awaclus is my bet. But the off wagon percentage is just better.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Night 2
Post by: EFHW on May 21, 2021, 08:24:21 am
We're 6, right? Not enough for quickhammer.

It takes 4 to exile. So if one townie votes another townie, scum can pile on and exile them.

If there's 3 scum in this timeline, sure.

Well, joth seemed very invested in us thinking there were two, so Iím suddenly much more opened to other options.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Night 2
Post by: EFHW on May 21, 2021, 08:25:41 am
Sorry. Should say I'm scumreading this post by Glooble.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Night 2
Post by: ashersky on May 21, 2021, 08:55:19 am
I have thoughts, especially on Glooble and scola.

Iím not able to post now, but will tomorrow.

Also, told you so. 
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Night 2
Post by: WestCoastDidds on May 21, 2021, 08:58:09 am
I have thoughts, especially on Glooble and scola.


^^^^^^

Also, Swowl will you please update the title to D3 instead of Night 2? Thank you!
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Night 2
Post by: hypercube on May 21, 2021, 09:06:48 am
joth flipping scum is great; I feel pretty good about EFHW, Didds, Dylan, ash, and MiX being town now.

Strange NK for sure - both in terms of killing someone who was off-wagon D1 and who was fake-voting for ash and not joth yesterday. It sure seems like there's a high chance at least one of Eddie and PPS is scum. I definitely prefer vote: Eddie out of those options.

Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Night 2
Post by: Glooble on May 21, 2021, 09:08:10 am
I just want to say if I'm scum, I'm the dumbest scum ever to play this game.

Make of that what you will.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Night 2
Post by: pingpongsam on May 21, 2021, 09:40:42 am
I just want to say if I'm scum, I'm the dumbest scum ever to play this game.

Make of that what you will.

I feel attacked, haha! I would absolutely do what you did and do what you're doing now. I am not at all implying that you're scum. In fact, I think you are town. I am saying however, it's not dumb scum play unless I am dumb.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Night 2
Post by: Uncleeurope on May 21, 2021, 09:48:08 am
Who we got here for realsies?

Me/MiX/PPS/Glooble/Awaclus/hypercube?

That looks right.

Glooble really wanted Joth to live.

Thatís awkward...

That was also a day 1 scum read from me, I am rarely wrong on those.

Vote: PPS

Whoops.

Eh, Iím too lazy to fix it, Iíll leave that there for now.

So PPS was scumreading joth most of yesterday. Do you think that came from scum!PPS?

Was he? I donít remember. Ehhh Unvote

I was scumreading Joth for day 1 as well, though. I even think I said it out loud because Joth and I had a pleasant conversation about it. Donít remember where, though.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Night 2
Post by: pingpongsam on May 21, 2021, 09:48:44 am
It's unfortunate that mathdude did the kamikaze thing for a couple of reasons. The first is that the only substantial interaction analysis I can find is around the number guessing and in general I felt like mathdude himself was the most off the reservation. I am going to reread to see if there was any subtle manipulation I missed or any flip flopping that might be scumtelling. The other unfortunate circumstance is that it leaves us with primarily wagon analysis to try to work out an exile over and wagon analysis is fairly poor with the information we have today and ripe for scum to manipulate around.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Night 2
Post by: Uncleeurope on May 21, 2021, 09:49:59 am
joth flipping scum is great; I feel pretty good about EFHW, Didds, Dylan, ash, and MiX being town now.

Strange NK for sure - both in terms of killing someone who was off-wagon D1 and who was fake-voting for ash and not joth yesterday. It sure seems like there's a high chance at least one of Eddie and PPS is scum. I definitely prefer vote: Eddie out of those options.

Eh, I did push for Math to pick 1, though.

Which would have been the correct number in that worldview.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Night 2
Post by: Uncleeurope on May 21, 2021, 09:50:59 am
Plus Math was so obviously town that losing him hurts my soul.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Night 2
Post by: pingpongsam on May 21, 2021, 09:55:32 am
I think the whole nature of the mathdude kamikaze circumstance makes the wagon analysis a complete shot in the dark. What about anyone's position on or off the wagon tells us their potential alignment? It was a town gambit that required town participation to happen. I find it ironic that his name is mathdude and as a very non mathdude myself I still see his number guess as the poorest utility in the event of being wrong. I personally and quite averse to gambling and while I'm probably poor at risk assessment I like to think I can solve basic odds analysis. Of the options 0,1,2 I feel he picked the worst one and that is self evident today. High risk high reward or abysmal payoff.

I guess all that is to say I am already suspicious of wagon analysis and this particular wagon is even more suspect for analysis and anyone trying to leverage it seems suspect to me.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Night 2
Post by: Uncleeurope on May 21, 2021, 09:57:06 am
I agree ^^

But I share a similar perspective to PPS, haha.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Night 2
Post by: hypercube on May 21, 2021, 10:02:50 am
Hmm maybe you're both scum then. Unless there's a case for there being 1 or 3 scum in this timeline that I'm missing.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Night 2
Post by: MiX on May 21, 2021, 10:22:47 am
Unvote cause uncle's at X-2.

There's plenty of wagon analysis: in D2. Yeah.

I don't think it matters what people advocated for math's guess, but rather how.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Night 2
Post by: pingpongsam on May 21, 2021, 10:24:23 am
Hmm maybe you're both scum then. Unless there's a case for there being 1 or 3 scum in this timeline that I'm missing.

Can you explain the leap you're making from there must be scum off wagon to maybe not if there's a different scum count than 2 per timeline? What information is driving this certainty?
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Night 2
Post by: Uncleeurope on May 21, 2021, 10:24:32 am
Hmm maybe you're both scum then. Unless there's a case for there being 1 or 3 scum in this timeline that I'm missing.

Finally, I havenít had a solid read in awhile, Vote: Hypercube
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Night 2
Post by: Uncleeurope on May 21, 2021, 10:26:14 am
Unvote cause uncle's at X-2.

There's plenty of wagon analysis: in D2. Yeah.

I don't think it matters what people advocated for math's guess, but rather how.

I didnít even see that you had voted, haha.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Night 2
Post by: hypercube on May 21, 2021, 10:28:59 am
Hmm maybe you're both scum then. Unless there's a case for there being 1 or 3 scum in this timeline that I'm missing.

Can you explain the leap you're making from there must be scum off wagon to maybe not if there's a different scum count than 2 per timeline? What information is driving this certainty?

If you're town, then from your perspective there are two options: either Eddie is scum or there's 1 or 3 scum in this timeline.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Night 2
Post by: hypercube on May 21, 2021, 10:30:41 am
(or 0 or 4+ but I don't think those options are worth considering).
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Night 2
Post by: pingpongsam on May 21, 2021, 10:31:23 am
Hmm maybe you're both scum then. Unless there's a case for there being 1 or 3 scum in this timeline that I'm missing.

Can you explain the leap you're making from there must be scum off wagon to maybe not if there's a different scum count than 2 per timeline? What information is driving this certainty?

If you're town, then from your perspective there are two options: either Eddie is scum or there's 1 or 3 scum in this timeline.

How is there a necessary 1v1 between me and Eddie in a 2 scum scenario? Why does a different scenario necessarily change that?
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Night 2
Post by: Uncleeurope on May 21, 2021, 10:33:16 am
Hmm maybe you're both scum then. Unless there's a case for there being 1 or 3 scum in this timeline that I'm missing.

Can you explain the leap you're making from there must be scum off wagon to maybe not if there's a different scum count than 2 per timeline? What information is driving this certainty?

If you're town, then from your perspective there are two options: either Eddie is scum or there's 1 or 3 scum in this timeline.

How is there a necessary 1v1 between me and Eddie in a 2 scum scenario? Why does a different scenario necessarily change that?

You and I are the only people off wagon.

So if there are two scum in this timeline (and we know that they both werenít on wagon) then at least one of us is evil.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Night 2
Post by: MiX on May 21, 2021, 10:33:43 am
Hmm maybe you're both scum then. Unless there's a case for there being 1 or 3 scum in this timeline that I'm missing.

Can you explain the leap you're making from there must be scum off wagon to maybe not if there's a different scum count than 2 per timeline? What information is driving this certainty?

If you're town, then from your perspective there are two options: either Eddie is scum or there's 1 or 3 scum in this timeline.

How is there a necessary 1v1 between me and Eddie in a 2 scum scenario? Why does a different scenario necessarily change that?

The math info: you are the two outside the math wagon that are alive.

PPE: yeah that
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Night 2
Post by: Uncleeurope on May 21, 2021, 10:34:16 am
Can someone check what number Hypercube was pitching? I doubt it will change my read, but it might be enough for you people to take a look at it.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Night 2
Post by: Uncleeurope on May 21, 2021, 10:36:48 am
At this moment, if I maintain 2-per timeline, my money is on PPS/Cube

And thatís even before Mathís result.

We have to remember that scum CHOSE to kill chairs.

So me/PPS both being scum is the most insane play ever to be made.

And I would be honored if you voted on me with that argument.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Night 2
Post by: MiX on May 21, 2021, 10:38:58 am
Can someone check what number Hypercube was pitching? I doubt it will change my read, but it might be enough for you people to take a look at it.

"1, shrug" describes hyper's opinion on the number perfectly. There's s big post math made in D1 with all the opinions if you wanna look at it yourself.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Night 2
Post by: Uncleeurope on May 21, 2021, 10:40:09 am
Can someone check what number Hypercube was pitching? I doubt it will change my read, but it might be enough for you people to take a look at it.

"1, shrug" describes hyper's opinion on the number perfectly. There's s big post math made in D1 with all the opinions if you wanna look at it yourself.

Nah, that post misrepresented my opinion, so I donít like looking at it.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Night 2
Post by: pingpongsam on May 21, 2021, 10:41:08 am
Hmm maybe you're both scum then. Unless there's a case for there being 1 or 3 scum in this timeline that I'm missing.

Can you explain the leap you're making from there must be scum off wagon to maybe not if there's a different scum count than 2 per timeline? What information is driving this certainty?

So, it's just a simple commitment to the assumption that 2 scum would not have been on the math wagon?

If you're town, then from your perspective there are two options: either Eddie is scum or there's 1 or 3 scum in this timeline.

How is there a necessary 1v1 between me and Eddie in a 2 scum scenario? Why does a different scenario necessarily change that?

The math info: you are the two outside the math wagon that are alive.

PPE: yeah that
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Night 2
Post by: pingpongsam on May 21, 2021, 10:42:01 am
Hmm maybe you're both scum then. Unless there's a case for there being 1 or 3 scum in this timeline that I'm missing.

Can you explain the leap you're making from there must be scum off wagon to maybe not if there's a different scum count than 2 per timeline? What information is driving this certainty?

If you're town, then from your perspective there are two options: either Eddie is scum or there's 1 or 3 scum in this timeline.

How is there a necessary 1v1 between me and Eddie in a 2 scum scenario? Why does a different scenario necessarily change that?

The math info: you are the two outside the math wagon that are alive.

PPE: yeah that


So, it's just a simple commitment to the assumption that 2 scum would not have been on the math wagon?

apologies not used to this forum in a long while and btw, it kinda sucks.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Night 2
Post by: MiX on May 21, 2021, 10:42:29 am
Assumption? That's what math died to tell us.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Night 2
Post by: MiX on May 21, 2021, 10:43:59 am
This forum is better than MU, I'll tell you that. No 5 seconds everytime I want to load a page. It adds up.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Night 2
Post by: Uncleeurope on May 21, 2021, 10:47:43 am
Assumption? That's what math died to tell us.

Did PPS just do the scummiest town slip I have ever seen? I am so confused.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Night 2
Post by: hypercube on May 21, 2021, 10:49:02 am
I'm willing to believe that PPS is town who didn't think this all through/pay attention to EOD1, and that Eddie is scum who did think this all through and really needs to find a way to exile someone who isn't PPS.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Night 2
Post by: Uncleeurope on May 21, 2021, 10:51:26 am
I am less willing to believe that, funnily enough.

Itís insane how much my radar is going off on Cube right now.

Every world should have me voting for PPS.

I dunno, man.

I could be wrong here, but I think itís cube.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Night 2
Post by: MiX on May 21, 2021, 10:53:11 am
Can you explain that read, Uncle? I don't even see a "he's scum cause he's, like, scummy, you see" post and I'd like one of those.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Night 2
Post by: Uncleeurope on May 21, 2021, 10:53:42 am
Can you explain that read, Uncle? I don't even see a "he's scum cause he's, like, scummy, you see" post and I'd like one of those.

Reread his posts from today, is it just me?
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Night 2
Post by: Uncleeurope on May 21, 2021, 10:55:06 am
He was also the universally agreed ďscummiest voteĒ on M.D.

He has enough ďhmmmísĒ that he could fill a bag with them.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Night 2
Post by: pingpongsam on May 21, 2021, 10:56:28 am
Assumption? That's what math died to tell us.

Right, okay, it's coming together for me now. We know it's not 2 in Mix, Cube, Gloobie, Awac. Chances of 3 seem vanishingly small to me too. Chances of 1 not so much but 2 seems like a  reasonable assumption.

Knowing my alignment I now see the POE to Eddie. I'm still stumped as to why scum would pop chairs, though, knowing it forces a 1v1. That would require some pretty adept commitment to the next day's strategy, I think.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Night 2
Post by: pingpongsam on May 21, 2021, 10:58:05 am
Assumption? That's what math died to tell us.

Right, okay, it's coming together for me now. We know it's not 2 in Mix, Cube, Gloobie, Awac. Chances of timeline containing 3 scum seem vanishingly small to me too. Chances of 1 not so much but 2 seems like a  reasonable assumption.

Knowing my alignment I now see the POE to Eddie. I'm still stumped as to why scum would pop chairs, though, knowing it forces a 1v1. That would require some pretty adept commitment to the next day's strategy, I think.

Bolded fixes to clarify what my brain was doing while I typed.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Night 2
Post by: Uncleeurope on May 21, 2021, 10:58:20 am
Assumption? That's what math died to tell us.

Right, okay, it's coming together for me now. We know it's not 2 in Mix, Cube, Gloobie, Awac. Chances of 3 seem vanishingly small to me too. Chances of 1 not so much but 2 seems like a  reasonable assumption.

Knowing my alignment I now see the POE to Eddie. I'm still stumped as to why scum would pop chairs, though, knowing it forces a 1v1. That would require some pretty adept commitment to the next day's strategy, I think.

And you and I are the opposite of communal right now.

I honestly have no idea what to make of you and itís annoying.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Night 2
Post by: pingpongsam on May 21, 2021, 10:59:03 am
The chairs flip brings more credibility to a thought that Didds touched on some time ago. What if scum somehow don't actually know about each other? Say, they are all traitors such that a blind shot has a chance of recruitment?
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Night 2
Post by: hypercube on May 21, 2021, 11:00:25 am
He was also the universally agreed ďscummiest voteĒ on M.D.

This is the line of reasoning joth tried to use - voting for mathdude was towny.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Night 2
Post by: Uncleeurope on May 21, 2021, 11:05:29 am
He was also the universally agreed ďscummiest voteĒ on M.D.

This is the line of reasoning joth tried to use - voting for mathdude was towny.

But he was town.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Night 2
Post by: pingpongsam on May 21, 2021, 11:06:42 am
He was also the universally agreed ďscummiest voteĒ on M.D.

This is the line of reasoning joth tried to use - voting for mathdude was towny.

But he was town.

insert eyes emoji here
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Night 2
Post by: hypercube on May 21, 2021, 11:07:04 am
The chairs flip brings more credibility to a thought that Didds touched on some time ago. What if scum somehow don't actually know about each other? Say, they are all traitors such that a blind shot has a chance of recruitment?

It's an interesting thought. It's definitely hard to make sense of the decision to kill chairs - the gkreig kill does point towards them wanting to kill unexpected targets, which could just be fear of town role powers. The case where it seems to makes sense to kill off-wagon are if there's one scum who was on-wagon, so that should be considered, but at the same time there's WIFOM.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Night 2
Post by: hypercube on May 21, 2021, 11:07:26 am
He was also the universally agreed ďscummiest voteĒ on M.D.

This is the line of reasoning joth tried to use - voting for mathdude was towny.

But he was town.

He was town who was trying to get people to vote for him.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Night 2
Post by: Uncleeurope on May 21, 2021, 11:09:13 am
He was also the universally agreed ďscummiest voteĒ on M.D.

This is the line of reasoning joth tried to use - voting for mathdude was towny.

But he was town.

He was town who was trying to get people to vote for him.

So how was voting for him towny?
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Night 2
Post by: Uncleeurope on May 21, 2021, 11:10:21 am
He was also the universally agreed ďscummiest voteĒ on M.D.

This is the line of reasoning joth tried to use - voting for mathdude was towny.

But he was town.

👀

There ya go.

May as well get some use from phone posting this whole time.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Night 2
Post by: hypercube on May 21, 2021, 11:17:06 am
He was also the universally agreed ďscummiest voteĒ on M.D.

This is the line of reasoning joth tried to use - voting for mathdude was towny.

But he was town.

He was town who was trying to get people to vote for him.

So how was voting for him towny?

He was acting like scum in order to accomplish this goal, and it's towny to vote for people who are acting like scum.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Night 2
Post by: Uncleeurope on May 21, 2021, 11:19:19 am
He was also the universally agreed ďscummiest voteĒ on M.D.

This is the line of reasoning joth tried to use - voting for mathdude was towny.

But he was town.

He was town who was trying to get people to vote for him.

So how was voting for him towny?

He was acting like scum in order to accomplish this goal, and it's towny to vote for people who are acting like scum.

Ehhhhh, he was acting more like town than scum, though.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Night 2
Post by: MiX on May 21, 2021, 11:21:51 am
It's scummy to vote for town that act scummy.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Night 2
Post by: pingpongsam on May 21, 2021, 11:22:15 am
Can't say I ever read math as scum, either.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Night 2
Post by: hypercube on May 21, 2021, 11:22:25 am
Ehhhhh, he was acting more like town than scum, though.

Town doesn't normally fake their emotions like that. I voted for mathdude after MiX pointed out that that was what mathdude was doing.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Night 2
Post by: Uncleeurope on May 21, 2021, 11:32:18 am
This is why I donít make cases, forget o said anything about your vote on M.D. being scummy.

Letís just stick with my gut, the fact you are bad, and a healthy dollop of ďI have no idea what I am talking about but letís just vote and see what happensĒ
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Night 2
Post by: Glooble on May 21, 2021, 11:35:08 am
I strongly agree with those saying we should exile either Eddie or PPS today. I've scumread each of them at different points, but they've both been relatively active, so I'd suggest we all re-read them when we have time.

It would take a lot for me to vote on-wagon today. Not saying I won't, but it would take a really good case or someone acting really scummy.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Night 2
Post by: Uncleeurope on May 21, 2021, 11:58:13 am
But PPS is being so much townier than some other person we got floating around.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Night 2
Post by: Uncleeurope on May 21, 2021, 11:59:04 am
Hey, MiX, where do you land on the whole ďPPS/Uncleeurope has a baddie in itĒ
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Night 2
Post by: pingpongsam on May 21, 2021, 12:00:51 pm
I've been mulling over how it could resolve if all of either alignment were eliminated from a timeline. I think such a gamestate might result in a timeline convergence. In the case of town elimination scum likely have the game in the bag anyhow but if not yet then assuming the timelines publicly converge the remaining scum from that timeline are effectively known. In the case of scum elimination it seems possible for timelines to converge there as well. I suppose town could get a huge boost to no exile every day and focusing PRs on the other timeline during their night but it seems like a boring way to play out the game for those stuck in a timeline with no adversary.

At any rate, such an idea lends some credence to asymmetrical scum loading. If my theory is at all worthwhile, with 1 scum gone from the forward timeline and no public convergence we could assume multiple scum on forward timeline but not necessarily assume multiple scum on the reverse timeline. This is about the only way I can perceive ignoring the must lynch off wagon campaign for today.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: Glooble on May 21, 2021, 12:06:03 pm
Ok, so faust/Eddie. The first notable thing is faust's "no real votes" plan and his desire to keep timelines secret for day one.

One clear downside of timeline claiming is that it allows scum to target the PRs that can be active that Night with roleblocking, killing etc.

So here is my plan: noone votes. Instead, we use italics to Vote: xy. I agree to do vote count for italic votes. If a majority of living players agrees on an exile, then the people in the active timeline try to exile them. Otherwise, there will be no exile.

Was this plan scummy? Was it towny but just ill-advised? Was it a brilliant plan that we should have followed? Who knows. Reading back at the discussion around it, it's easy to see it as a scum play for town points. Especially with snap-backs like this one:

Maybe it wasn't best to mention this, so I'll rephrase to say: No, I do not expect that.

Okay then your plan is anti-town.
At least I have a plan and am not just blurting out random bits of information to the enemy.

I think the italics plan by faust is a good one. Obviously overtly helpful faust is scum faust, so vote: faust.

I also don't know if not timeline claiming is a good thing. Not just for the targeting reasons that have been mentioned, but because we will have at least partially timeline claimed by the end of the day when the people from the current timeline vote for the person who has been hammered by italics votes. Not sure if it is good to let some people be unclaimed from a timeline while others get to not be timeline claimed.

gkrieg, who was town, found the plan, or at least faust's presentation of it scummy, or at least that's how I interpret this statement- that gkrieg thought the plan was a ploy for townpoints. Unless he was being tongue-in-cheek here, I honestly can't tell.

mathdude strongly opposes faust's plan and in fact acitvely undermines it with a bold vote on faust. So far 2/2 dead townies agree- faust is scummy.

faust responds:

I am extremely frustrated and annoyed at mathdude's play.

Which is pretty much in character regardless of alignment.

Confirmed scum joth supports faust's plan. Make of that what you will - could be buddying from joth to get town!faust to like him, could be the plan had some hidden benefit to scum that made it worth two scum players tying themselves together.

We're all so stuck on whether this plan is good or not, we're actually not getting anywhere useful. Good job faust. Your plan is working.

We could just move on quickly if everyone claims Timeline, votes for themselves (or if Reverse, you can vote me or faust), then let's get on with the actual game.

I think faust is scummy. And I know he can be voted for today.  Anyone else have scum reads?

mathdude raises the possibility that faust's plan was mostly to distract town from actually scumhunting which, honestly, is seeming like a not-terribly unlikely scenario to me right now.

Almost-certainly confirmed town Ashersky agrees with mathdude's assessment of faust and the motivation behind the plan as well.

Now this interaction:

It would be easier because this is an RMM with supercharged investigative PRs.

Also re. faust - what is this? Either it's creating WIFOM for no obvious reason or it's rolefishing bait. Feels scummy to me in any case.
Every investigative role has a QT, i.e. they can share their results without having to claim.

Except they have no idea if their QT-mate is town, so they may not want to reveal to that person that they have an investigative role.

Exactly this. But I can see why faust wants investigative roles to share with their partners... or helps out him and his team if one of them can get info from town.

mathdude here basically accusing faust of trying to get townies with investigative roles to out themselves to their QT partners- that seems a little bit unsubtle for faust, but I can certainly see mathdude's point.

I was apparently townreading faust at this point, but as we all know from how day 2 panned out, my reads are shit. He certainly seems less-than-towny to me on this reread.

Vote: faust

Timeline hiding is worthless.

And chairs weighs in! 3 out of 3 dead townies agree- faust is scum!

And now we reach the point where faust subbed out for Eddie, so I'm going to take a break and pick this up later. So far, and Eddie Exile is looking pretty decent to me though.

PPE: 3


Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Night 2
Post by: Glooble on May 21, 2021, 12:08:11 pm
And in case anyone doesn't want to read my wall of text, here's the big takeaway - all three of the dead townies thought faust was scummy before Eddie replaced faust day one.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Night 2
Post by: Uncleeurope on May 21, 2021, 01:03:08 pm
I look forward to part 2 when you figure out I am confirmed Town.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Night 2
Post by: MiX on May 21, 2021, 01:10:06 pm
Hey, MiX, where do you land on the whole ďPPS/Uncleeurope has a baddie in itĒ

I think it's true, and I think it's you. But I'm not convinced it has to be true. We know there's at least 2 scum in forward timeline since chairs died (unless someone wants to claim they killed him?), so it's not impossible for there to only be 1 scum in reverse.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Night 2
Post by: Uncleeurope on May 21, 2021, 01:23:59 pm
Iím very clearly town, but whatevs.

I even thought scum wouldnít be QT partners together, because I didnít know it was random.

Me pointing this out makes this more WIFOM than it should be, but whatever.

I noticed it, so itís too late for me.

I guess Iíll Vote: PPS

I also donít like MiX suspecting me. Maybe Iím too arrogant to think he would know better than that, but whatever.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Night 2
Post by: Glooble on May 21, 2021, 01:24:58 pm
Hey, MiX, where do you land on the whole ďPPS/Uncleeurope has a baddie in itĒ

I think it's true, and I think it's you. But I'm not convinced it has to be true. We know there's at least 2 scum in forward timeline since chairs died (unless someone wants to claim they killed him?), so it's not impossible for there to only be 1 scum in reverse.

That's a really good point I hadn't considered. If it is 3-1, then the 3 pretty much has to be forward and the 1 reverse. Which would make mathdude's info extra super-duper useless.

Unless of course, Swowl did something like let scum kill on their off night if everyone in one timeline is dead.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Night 2
Post by: Uncleeurope on May 21, 2021, 01:25:16 pm
I said whatever 3 times there, that about sums up my opinions on the way this day is heading.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Night 2
Post by: Glooble on May 21, 2021, 01:25:42 pm

I even thought scum wouldnít be QT partners together, because I didnít know it was random.


What does this have to do with anything?
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Night 2
Post by: Uncleeurope on May 21, 2021, 01:28:19 pm

I even thought scum wouldnít be QT partners together, because I didnít know it was random.


What does this have to do with anything?

I would hope I would realize that scum could be QT partners if my partner was Joth.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Night 2
Post by: Glooble on May 21, 2021, 01:33:24 pm

I even thought scum wouldnít be QT partners together, because I didnít know it was random.


What does this have to do with anything?

I would hope I would realize that scum could be QT partners if my partner was Joth.

But you wouldn't say that, would you?
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Night 2
Post by: Uncleeurope on May 21, 2021, 01:35:49 pm
Wouldnít say what?

That scum probably wouldnít be partners because that would be boring?

Thatís the reason I suggested outing QT partners day 1.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Night 2
Post by: Glooble on May 21, 2021, 01:36:54 pm
Wouldnít say what?

That scum probably wouldnít be partners because that would be boring?

Thatís the reason I suggested outing QT partners day 1.

Right, it seems like a thing a person might suggest if they and their QT partner were both scum, no?
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Night 2
Post by: Uncleeurope on May 21, 2021, 01:38:14 pm
Thatís for me to know and for you to find out.

But itís a towny thing that I did, so itís my job to point at it and say ďguys look, Iím being townyĒ

Whether you believe it or not is irrelevant.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Night 2
Post by: Glooble on May 21, 2021, 02:00:24 pm
How active was your QT with joth?

Did he say anything there that might be useful?
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Night 2
Post by: pingpongsam on May 21, 2021, 02:03:11 pm
There seems to be immense pressure to 1v1 today. A lot of the arguments for it are sound but founded on premises that cannot be 100% known. If they are, in fact false, we're setting ourselves up to potentially 1v1 two back to back town in this timeline which is going to be catastrophic. It feels like there's a certainty developing that if one of the off wagon flip town the other must be the scum and the next day's fix is in.

I am by no means a setup genius and I've already proposed a mechanism by which we could be wrong which suggests to me there could be others. Both Eddie and I are looking outside the 1v1 box which is certainly making me want to town read him. I understand his resignation as I am equally tempted as well but it feels more and more like a potentially doomed scenario that we may have been falsely led into. I would greatly prefer more weigh in from not only all players but especially Awaclus as he is in this timeline before calling it a day by casting a vote out of self preservation and blithe belief in the setup conditions.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Night 2
Post by: Uncleeurope on May 21, 2021, 02:04:15 pm
How active was your QT with joth?

Did he say anything there that might be useful?

I asked for a recap of what he said with Faust, he said they claimed timelines and nothing else.

I then went silent.

When I said I scumread my QT partner he asked why while saying he town read me, then there was a long pause. He asked if We could come up with something to do in the QT so as not to waste it, I recommended chess, he said he wasnít experienced enough with chess to do that, (long pause) then he ranted about how anyone could see Ash as townier than him, and then I asked if I could put that we were partners. (He said yes.)
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Night 2
Post by: scolapasta on May 21, 2021, 02:06:17 pm
How active was your QT with joth?

Did he say anything there that might be useful?

I asked for a recap of what he said with Faust, he said they claimed timelines and nothing else.

I then went silent.

When I said I scumread my QT partner he asked why while saying he town read me, then there was a long pause. He asked if We could come up with something to do in the QT so as not to waste it, I recommended chess, he said he wasnít experienced enough with chess to do that, (long pause) then he ranted about how anyone could see Ash as townier than him, and then I asked if I could put that we were partners. (He said yes.)

Why ask for a recap? Isn't it the same QT and you could just read it?
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Night 2
Post by: Uncleeurope on May 21, 2021, 02:08:22 pm
We were given a new QT with a new title, no idea why.

For all I know he lied to me, although Iím doubtful he would ever do that, surely if I cared enough swowl would show me the old QT.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Night 2
Post by: WestCoastDidds on May 21, 2021, 02:39:11 pm
We know there's at least 2 scum in forward timeline since chairs died (unless someone wants to claim they killed him?), so it's not impossible for there to only be 1 scum in reverse.

MIx, can you explain this to me? How do we know that?
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Night 2
Post by: scolapasta on May 21, 2021, 02:43:07 pm
We know there's at least 2 scum in forward timeline since chairs died (unless someone wants to claim they killed him?), so it's not impossible for there to only be 1 scum in reverse.

MIx, can you explain this to me? How do we know that?

Joth 1, whoever killed chairs 2.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Night 2
Post by: pingpongsam on May 21, 2021, 02:45:48 pm
We know there's at least 2 scum in forward timeline since chairs died (unless someone wants to claim they killed him?), so it's not impossible for there to only be 1 scum in reverse.

MIx, can you explain this to me? How do we know that?

I think the assumption is that scum can only act on their timeline night. This is another one of those assumptions that I find risky to attach such certainty to. If true, with 1 scum dead there'd need to be another scum to make the kill.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Night 2
Post by: MiX on May 21, 2021, 02:48:39 pm
We know there's at least 2 scum in forward timeline since chairs died (unless someone wants to claim they killed him?), so it's not impossible for there to only be 1 scum in reverse.

MIx, can you explain this to me? How do we know that?

I think the assumption is that scum can only act on their timeline night. This is another one of those assumptions that I find risky to attach such certainty to. If true, with 1 scum dead there'd need to be another scum to make the kill.

That's what I'm assuming, yeah. It goes along with the "two games" theory, if you kill all scum in 1 timeline...they can't kill. Seems reasonable to me.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Sign Ups Open!
Post by: Glooble on May 21, 2021, 02:57:33 pm

    c.   During the Night, only players on the Active Timeline will be allowed to take actions.
 

From the rules post. Seems pretty explicit to me. If this only applies to town, I'd say this is a bastard game.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Sign Ups Open!
Post by: pingpongsam on May 21, 2021, 03:01:22 pm

    c.   During the Night, only players on the Active Timeline will be allowed to take actions.
 

From the rules post. Seems pretty explicit to me. If this only applies to town, I'd say this is a bastard game.

I'll concede that is reasonable deduction to make, then. I wasn't imagining a scum free for all so much as potential x-shot scum pr. Joth was 1 shot strongman for example.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Sign Ups Open!
Post by: MiX on May 21, 2021, 03:01:56 pm

    c.   During the Night, only players on the Active Timeline will be allowed to take actions.
 

From the rules post. Seems pretty explicit to me. If this only applies to town, I'd say this is a bastard game.

I wouldn't put it that far, I can see the NK transcend time and space.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Night 2
Post by: Glooble on May 21, 2021, 03:04:13 pm
If it were me, and I were writing the setup, I would have put "Unless otherwise noted" if there were any exceptions.

But that's just me. I suppose it's possible.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Sign Ups Open!
Post by: WestCoastDidds on May 21, 2021, 04:18:35 pm

    c.   During the Night, only players on the Active Timeline will be allowed to take actions.
 

From the rules post. Seems pretty explicit to me. If this only applies to town, I'd say this is a bastard game.

I wouldn't put it that far, I can see the NK transcend time and space.

I was thinking it would transcend space and time, but yíallís explanation makes way more sense.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Sign Ups Open!
Post by: scolapasta on May 21, 2021, 04:51:06 pm

    c.   During the Night, only players on the Active Timeline will be allowed to take actions.
 

From the rules post. Seems pretty explicit to me. If this only applies to town, I'd say this is a bastard game.

I wouldn't put it that far, I can see the NK transcend time and space.

I was thinking it would transcend space and time, but yíallís explanation makes way more sense.

I don't see why it would (transcend, that is). The rule Gloobie quoted is pretty clear on "all players".
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: pingpongsam on May 21, 2021, 05:56:39 pm
The idea that scum NK cannot cross the divide supports my theory that timelines converge when a faction is absent one.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Sign Ups Open!
Post by: WestCoastDidds on May 21, 2021, 06:11:33 pm

    c.   During the Night, only players on the Active Timeline will be allowed to take actions.
 

From the rules post. Seems pretty explicit to me. If this only applies to town, I'd say this is a bastard game.

I wouldn't put it that far, I can see the NK transcend time and space.

I was thinking it would transcend space and time, but yíallís explanation makes way more sense.

I don't see why it would (transcend, that is). The rule Gloobie quoted is pretty clear on "all players".

I donít have a why. I hadnít thought about it, which is why I didnít pick up the 2 scum in the FT until MiX said it and you explained it.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: ashersky on May 21, 2021, 09:39:54 pm
Putting my thoughts down as mentioned, even though it may not be too relevant to today's discussions.  I guess Glooble is active, so there's that.

On Glooble:

--he and PPS have already discussed this, but Glooble's actions wrt joth are hard to ignore.  He was by far joth's biggest defender, even making the twin argument at one point.  I'd be interested in reading a study of twin play over time (Robz/Mcmc, glooble/joth, etc. in all games), actually.  Someone should do that.
--So, as Glooble says, was he just super way wrong town?  Or as PPS says, the boldest of bold mafia plays?  I see a few possibilities, in no particular order.

1. Planned, bold mafia play.  Decided early on that, for some reason (2-person team maybe?), there would be no bussing and they would be all in to defend each other at every turn.
2. Unplanned, bold mafia play.  Started off defending joth assuming since it was an ashersky situation, it wouldn't take much to change the subject, but then it kept going and going, and backing off would have looked even worse after a flip (true) so he just went all in.
3. Wrong town read.  Really just thought joth was town, was fooled, basically.
4. Unconscious bias against ashersky from previous interactions.  This could be a thing...Glooble and I have argued in the past, so it's hard to trust the next time.  Hopefully I've earned back some cred here.

I'm with PPS here in that Glooble's play is not necessarily bad or dumb mafia play.  There's plenty of upside if he's on joth's team.


Now, scola.

I actually think scola looks much, much worse.  He kept defending joth with a lot of "but what about me?  I did the same stuff" kind of arguments.  Their defense of joth was never about joth.  It wasn't like "joth did x" or even "joth seems towny to me" but was instead only focused on "if ash says joth is mafia for X, why am I not mafia too since I also did X?" 

Scola tried to discredit by case to relieve pressure on joth without actually defending joth himself, which means he can argue that he never really thought he was towny, etc. so that he doesn't look so bad when we know he's confirmed mafia.  That's textbook partner defense.

I don't see any other explanation for scola's actions.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: ashersky on May 21, 2021, 09:40:35 pm
Also:

request prod: Galzria

I mean, if real life is busy, I get it.  But sub out at some point.  During his active timeline, he posted once?  He hasn't posted in our QT since during Day 1.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: EFHW on May 22, 2021, 12:41:17 am
Re Glooble, my guess is ash's #2. vote: Glooble.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: Swowl on May 22, 2021, 01:21:32 am
Vote Count 3.1:

PPS (1): Eddie
Eddie (1): hypercube
Not Voting (12): Awaclus, PPS, MiX, Glooble, EFHW, WCD, scolapasta, Galzria, Ashersky, Dylan32

With 6 alive on the ACTIVE TIMELINE, it takes 4 to Exile.
Day 3 ends Friday, May 28th at 1:05am Forum Time.

Today the active timeline is the REVERSE TIMELINE. We will remain in the REVERSE TIMELINE until the start of Day 2.
Only players from the currently active timeline may vote, or be voted for.

*Galzria has been prodded.
** MOD request/reminder - in my games please do you best to put "votes" in a separate line of text (not in the middle of a paragraph).
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: Uncleeurope on May 22, 2021, 01:44:10 am
It seems possible Iím wrong but isnít Hypercube voting for me?
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: Uncleeurope on May 22, 2021, 01:45:04 am
Re Glooble, my guess is ash's #2. vote: Glooble.

I donít think I like this post.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: Swowl on May 22, 2021, 02:29:44 am
It seems possible Iím wrong but isnít Hypercube voting for me?

and that is why the same line request :P
Yes you are correct. Vote count corrected.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: Awaclus on May 22, 2021, 05:20:04 am
I've been busy lately, I'm going to catch up a bit later.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: hypercube on May 22, 2021, 07:34:35 am
Sorry everyone, I'm feeling pretty out of it from the COVID vaccine so I doubt I'll have too much to say today.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: WestCoastDidds on May 22, 2021, 08:38:02 am
Sorry everyone, I'm feeling pretty out of it from the COVID vaccine so I doubt I'll have too much to say today.

I hope you feel better soon. And hooray, vaccine!
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: WestCoastDidds on May 22, 2021, 08:40:21 am
Re Glooble, my guess is ash's #2. vote: Glooble.

Yeah, if the twins are both scum, wouldnít it be fun for them to just go for it and be completely bold and have an awesome time? I can 100% see that happening.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: EFHW on May 22, 2021, 09:27:39 am
Re Glooble, my guess is ash's #2. vote: Glooble.

Yeah, if the twins are both scum, wouldnít it be fun for them to just go for it and be completely bold and have an awesome time? I can 100% see that happening.
That was #1 in ash's list. It's not a great plan, so I don't think they started with it.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: EFHW on May 22, 2021, 09:28:42 am
Re Glooble, my guess is ash's #2. vote: Glooble.

I donít think I like this post.

Can you say what you mean?
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: Uncleeurope on May 22, 2021, 02:46:15 pm
Re Glooble, my guess is ash's #2. vote: Glooble.

I donít think I like this post.

Can you say what you mean?

Ehhhh, feels odd.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: Uncleeurope on May 22, 2021, 04:35:06 pm
Hey,  people, whatís the plan?

Glooble, you gunna reread me to see that Iím Town today?

MiX, are we killing PPS/Me today, or are you interested in others? And why am I the better kill?

PPS, who are you settling on for this kill?

Hypercube, who are your scum partners?

Awaclus... Um... Hi. How have you been? You been doing well? I feel like we never talk anymore and Iíve missed you.

We need to do some stuff today, and I would rather we pretend deadline is tomorrow than wait till deadline actually is tomorrow to do stuff.

MiX may or may not be freaking out that I made this post. I did it to mess with him.

It was fun.

Seriously, though, letís get stuff done.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: MiX on May 22, 2021, 04:44:51 pm
In terms of freaking me out, this doesn't really reach it.

I'm interested in either you or hyper. But I haven't reread yet. Exam week just ended and I'll probably get back to this game for real tonight.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: WestCoastDidds on May 22, 2021, 04:49:36 pm
I havenít freaked MiX out on a good long time, but I feel like I still have the ability within me.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: Uncleeurope on May 22, 2021, 05:18:14 pm
In terms of freaking me out, this doesn't really reach it.

I'm interested in either you or hyper. But I haven't reread yet. Exam week just ended and I'll probably get back to this game for real tonight.

Fair, I guess what I meant when I said ďfreaked out  was:

ďIím going to make MiX scumread meĒ
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: Uncleeurope on May 22, 2021, 05:19:51 pm
In terms of freaking me out, this doesn't really reach it.

I'm interested in either you or hyper. But I haven't reread yet. Exam week just ended and I'll probably get back to this game for real tonight.

Fair, I guess what I meant when I said ďfreaked outĒ was:

ďIím going to make MiX scumread meĒ

I typed a space instead of a quotation mark in there and I had to fix it to help my sanity.

Iím good now.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: pingpongsam on May 22, 2021, 06:17:43 pm
Hey,  people, whatís the plan?

PPS, who are you settling on for this kill?

I am waiting on an Awaclus weigh in as promised.

I am actually shocked there's no night action results being shared. I will share that the person I targeted should know that they were targeted and my role claim, if forced, is verifiable.

I was sorely disappointed in the ashersky weigh-in. I really thought I was going to see some real critique or additional angles to the timeline convergence and potential scum distribution concepts I laid out. I feel like he would play different if it were his active timeline though and I see that as kind of hamstringing everything in that getting overall reads is important but we don't tend to see full engagement from people in the outside timelines.

I would urge everyone to be equally invested in each timeline as much as possible if for no other reason than to give everyone else sufficient read information for their following days.

Anyhow, I don't see anyone thinking very far outside the 1v1 so my obvious pick is Eddie. While I definitely can pick up what Eddie is putting down about hyper I also agree with hyper's counter that it appears to be scum reaching for anything outside the 1v1 because POE nails him according to the prevailing scum loading theory. That said, he doesn't seem to be enagaging my pontifications about alternate scum loading which I think he would latch onto if the hyper counter is factual. So, after typing that thought train into something cohesive I may see a little more merit to a hyper case.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: Awaclus on May 22, 2021, 07:36:39 pm
Awaclus... Um... Hi. How have you been? You been doing well? I feel like we never talk anymore and Iíve missed you.

It has been a bit hectic lately.

Anyway, I'm caught up now and I'm going to go read some more with a few things in mind.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: Awaclus on May 22, 2021, 08:03:05 pm
Cool.

Anyway, we purposefully exiled a townie just to have access to a 1-shot ability, and spent the ability under the assumption that 2 returning NO would be the same as "scum confirmed off-wagon". That was a ridiculously strong commitment to this assumption. The only ways it's a good idea to start reconsidering the assumption are:


Since we evidently did guess 2, it looks like back when we only had the information that we had at the time, guessing 2 seemed like a good idea. And while the info we've learned from joth's flip + other things is certainly valuable, I don't think it's quite valuable enough to add up to purposefully wasting an exile to kill a townie.

So I'm going to stick with the assumption.

Vote: Eddie
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: Uncleeurope on May 22, 2021, 08:05:04 pm
I liked his first post better.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: Uncleeurope on May 22, 2021, 08:18:09 pm
I have a thought.

I wonder if the baddies are choosing the kills a night in advance.

That would make sense as to why the players on the opposite timeline keep dying, and also why gkrieg died first. In fact, I would go so far as to say that I know at least part of that theory is true.


(Cue Awaclus saying I know this because I am scum)
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: Glooble on May 22, 2021, 08:18:25 pm
I have not had time to finish my reread.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: MiX on May 22, 2021, 08:20:53 pm
I have a thought.

I wonder if the baddies are choosing the kills a night in advance.

That would make sense as to why the players on the opposite timeline keep dying, and also why gkrieg died first. In fact, I would go so far as to say that I know at least part of that theory is true.


(Cue Awaclus saying I know this because I am scum)

But...there was no timeline for N0 or whatever. So how does that work?

Is the part that is true gkrieg dying first?
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: Glooble on May 22, 2021, 08:25:17 pm
Awaclusís post stinks of the sink cost fallacy. ďWe should do this so a townie didnít die in vainĒ... idk. Not sure I buy that reasoning. Heís dead either way, you know?

Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: Uncleeurope on May 22, 2021, 08:26:10 pm
I have a thought.

I wonder if the baddies are choosing the kills a night in advance.

That would make sense as to why the players on the opposite timeline keep dying, and also why gkrieg died first. In fact, I would go so far as to say that I know at least part of that theory is true.


(Cue Awaclus saying I know this because I am scum)

But...there was no timeline for N0 or whatever. So how does that work?

Is the part that is true gkrieg dying first?

Poison is a mechanism in this game.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: MiX on May 22, 2021, 08:31:43 pm
Awaclusís post stinks of the sink cost fallacy. ďWe should do this so a townie didnít die in vainĒ... idk. Not sure I buy that reasoning. Heís dead either way, you know?

It's basically committing to use the information we got. Seems pretty standard to me.

I have a thought.

I wonder if the baddies are choosing the kills a night in advance.

That would make sense as to why the players on the opposite timeline keep dying, and also why gkrieg died first. In fact, I would go so far as to say that I know at least part of that theory is true.


(Cue Awaclus saying I know this because I am scum)

But...there was no timeline for N0 or whatever. So how does that work?

Is the part that is true gkrieg dying first?

Poison is a mechanism in this game.

Oh. Okay.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: Uncleeurope on May 22, 2021, 08:41:07 pm
Awaclusís post stinks of the sink cost fallacy. ďWe should do this so a townie didnít die in vainĒ... idk. Not sure I buy that reasoning. Heís dead either way, you know?

Donít you agree with him? Whatís your problem?
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: Awaclus on May 22, 2021, 09:26:15 pm
Awaclusís post stinks of the sink cost fallacy. ďWe should do this so a townie didnít die in vainĒ... idk. Not sure I buy that reasoning. Heís dead either way, you know?

It's specifically not the sunk cost fallacy. In a sunk cost fallacy, you keep spending more resources on a thing because you have spent resources on it.

In this case, we're going to keep spending more resources on a thing because the thing (the info) is still around and it's still worth something. I'm just using the fact that we were willing to spend an exile killing a townie to estimate how much it's worth.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: Glooble on May 22, 2021, 09:30:15 pm
Awaclusís post stinks of the sink cost fallacy. ďWe should do this so a townie didnít die in vainĒ... idk. Not sure I buy that reasoning. Heís dead either way, you know?

Donít you agree with him? Whatís your problem?

Itís possible to agree with someoneís conclusion while disagreeing with how they reached them.

Anyway, I genuinely have not decided between you and pps.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: Awaclus on May 22, 2021, 09:32:20 pm
And yes, the value of that information has dropped somewhat since we did the thing, in the light of information that we have learned later. But in order to drop the value of something worth more than an exile and a townie so low that we'd almost completely discard it, the information needs to have almost as much of an impact as an exile and a townie.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: ashersky on May 22, 2021, 09:53:28 pm
Uncle softclaiming poison doctor there.

I mean, makes sense to do something when you are one of the possible exiles.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: ashersky on May 22, 2021, 09:54:08 pm
Actually, virus/vaccine would be a cool mafia flavor for poison/antidote.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: ashersky on May 22, 2021, 09:54:25 pm
PPS is correct, btw.  I have zero interest in this timeline.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: ashersky on May 22, 2021, 09:54:47 pm
I mean, exile Glooble.  That's all I'm interesting in seeing.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: Uncleeurope on May 22, 2021, 09:56:19 pm
Uncle softclaiming poison doctor there.

I mean, makes sense to do something when you are one of the possible exiles.

Not the softest Iíve been, but it felt prudent.

Plus now you guys get to theorize about poison stuff with me!
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: Uncleeurope on May 22, 2021, 11:12:53 pm
Awaclusís post stinks of the sink cost fallacy. ďWe should do this so a townie didnít die in vainĒ... idk. Not sure I buy that reasoning. Heís dead either way, you know?

Donít you agree with him? Whatís your problem?

Itís possible to agree with someoneís conclusion while disagreeing with how they reached them.

Anyway, I genuinely have not decided between you and pps.

I may as well address this.

I agree with statement 1. My issue is it feels like your counter isnít scum reading Awa, or actually doing anything to Awa, itís just noting that his reasoning is bad. I donít know why you care. Itís weird. It felt like that post accomplished very little.

Statement 2 is interesting in that it doesnít interest me.

Iím Town, if that helps.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: Uncleeurope on May 22, 2021, 11:23:02 pm
To be clear, Iím not scumreading Glooble for this, (I canít if I think Hyper is bad) I am just questioning his logic and accomplishing very little.

Sooo...
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: EFHW on May 22, 2021, 11:50:05 pm
Prod: scolapasta and Dylan
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: EFHW on May 22, 2021, 11:53:52 pm
I have a thought.

I wonder if the baddies are choosing the kills a night in advance.

That would make sense as to why the players on the opposite timeline keep dying, and also why gkrieg died first. In fact, I would go so far as to say that I know at least part of that theory is true.


(Cue Awaclus saying I know this because I am scum)

Why does it explain that gkrieg died first? Maybe they targeted lurkers so the game would be more interesting.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: Uncleeurope on May 23, 2021, 12:00:15 am
I have a thought.

I wonder if the baddies are choosing the kills a night in advance.

That would make sense as to why the players on the opposite timeline keep dying, and also why gkrieg died first. In fact, I would go so far as to say that I know at least part of that theory is true.


(Cue Awaclus saying I know this because I am scum)

Why does it explain that gkrieg died first? Maybe they targeted lurkers so the game would be more interesting.

Is that a confession or just an odd argument?

I postulated that they would choose a wildcard player that thy deemed as strong.

Obviously that would have been me, but I wasnít in the game at night 0.

This is all based on the idea that they had to choose a player to kill before knowing anything.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: scolapasta on May 23, 2021, 12:14:27 am
Prod: scolapasta and Dylan

I'm here, but busy weekend combined with Reverse TL, so...

I will find some time (probably Monday) to respond to ash's (incorrect) accusations of me. 
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: EFHW on May 23, 2021, 01:05:51 am
I have a thought.

I wonder if the baddies are choosing the kills a night in advance.

That would make sense as to why the players on the opposite timeline keep dying, and also why gkrieg died first. In fact, I would go so far as to say that I know at least part of that theory is true.


(Cue Awaclus saying I know this because I am scum)

Why does it explain that gkrieg died first? Maybe they targeted lurkers so the game would be more interesting.

Is that a confession or just an odd argument?

I postulated that they would choose a wildcard player that thy deemed as strong.

Obviously that would have been me, but I wasnít in the game at night 0.

This is all based on the idea that they had to choose a player to kill before knowing anything.

Odd argument. But you were faust N0, and he would be a likely target.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: Uncleeurope on May 23, 2021, 01:09:13 am
I think itís worth considering that they are poisoning people in such a way that they want to avoid their poison target being lynched, which is why they are killing in the opposite timeline.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: EFHW on May 23, 2021, 07:39:55 am
I think itís worth considering that they are poisoning people in such a way that they want to avoid their poison target being lynched, which is why they are killing in the opposite timeline.
That doesn't explain their choices of who to poison.  And they shouldn't know which timeline is next.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: hypercube on May 23, 2021, 07:44:16 am
The poison stuff doesn't make sense to me, there was no active timeline N0 so how could anyone take an action?
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: MiX on May 23, 2021, 08:23:26 am
I have a thought.

I wonder if the baddies are choosing the kills a night in advance.

That would make sense as to why the players on the opposite timeline keep dying, and also why gkrieg died first. In fact, I would go so far as to say that I know at least part of that theory is true.


(Cue Awaclus saying I know this because I am scum)

Why does it explain that gkrieg died first? Maybe they targeted lurkers so the game would be more interesting.

Is that a confession or just an odd argument?

I postulated that they would choose a wildcard player that thy deemed as strong.

Obviously that would have been me, but I wasnít in the game at night 0.

This is all based on the idea that they had to choose a player to kill before knowing anything.

Wouldn't faust be an even better target then?
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: ashersky on May 23, 2021, 08:30:30 am
So...

The poison as mafia's (only) NK argument only works if mafia was allowed to poison someone on N0.  If mafia has players in both timelines but they share a QT, easy enough to make that work.

Except...

We didn't have a timeline announced on N0, right?  So how was that resolved?  Was it just a free-for-all?

So one thing would be, if anyone could take an action on N0, please claim that specific tidbit.  Just one is enough, but it would help immensely.  Maybe you were 1-shot and used it; that's even better.  Just don't tell us that part.

Basically, I think a normal game where mafia can only poison has zero kills on N1.  In a normal game where there are multiple mafias and one is poisoner and the other isn't, you'd have one kill on N1 and then two each night unless blocking/doctoring.

So...uncle could have messed up his fakeclaim here.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: Uncleeurope on May 23, 2021, 09:03:41 am
Pffft. I donít think I drop poison into a game unprompted without thinking it through as scum.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: Uncleeurope on May 23, 2021, 09:05:12 am
Two teams would also explain shooting across timelines.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: pingpongsam on May 23, 2021, 09:07:25 am
Killing in the alternate timeline N1 makes perfect sense to me because it is essentially a N0 kill for that timeline. There is no POE to be gained from it for those in that timeline.

The shot at chairs is the real mystery. It's effectively the only reason I am not immediately voting Eddie. Why would scum force a 1v1 on themselves when it is completely avoidable unless that 1v1 doesn't really exist and they want it to appear as such?

One possibility I thought of is redirection. I think redirection is typically anti town but it seems somewhat thematic for this game, maybe? At any rate, maybe scum did not mean to kill chairs but rather someone else? If town did redirect last night then I think they should claim even if outside their timeline. Whoever they targeted is scum and so is Eddie. If true, redirection here would be supremely pro town.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: pingpongsam on May 23, 2021, 09:10:17 am
I have not played with poison in maybe ever? How does it typically work? Does a poisoned player know they are poisoned? Obviously it's a delayed kill.

Maybe I missed the thrust of the poison claim. Eddie, are you suggesting chairs died of poisoning and there wasn't a NK?
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: Uncleeurope on May 23, 2021, 09:26:12 am
My role gives me no information other than implications that poison exists and that it works as a delayed kill.

So I am unfortunately lost when it comes to the intricacies of how it functions on this game (how many poisons are expected, etc.)

I fully expected two people to die last night, and when that didnít happen (and I was being pushed) decided to throw that out there.

All other thoughts about N0 choosing (I didnít know there wasnít a timeline for N0, I wasnít in the game yet) and other theaters are just speculation.

*shrug*
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: pingpongsam on May 23, 2021, 09:50:22 am
Poison seems ill fitting thematically? I'm asking because I recall no such mechanic in the movie. Eddie, are you willing to claim your character name?
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: Uncleeurope on May 23, 2021, 09:52:54 am
My ability is very thematic. I assure you.

I watched the film and when my character was explained, I was very pleased. Swowl did good.

There is an odd thematic break in it, but such sacrifices are worth it.

I would want to reveal my whole role if I gave the name, not just the poison part, but still.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: hypercube on May 23, 2021, 10:55:56 am
I think the rules are pretty clear that no-one would be able to take an action N0, so any poison kills would be extra kills. If there is a poisoner in this game, either they're in this timeline and the kill got blocked N1 or they're in the other timeline and we wouldn't see the extra kill until tomorrow. That would be kind of a cute interaction with the timeline mechanic, the poisoner gets to act N2 and Eddie gets a chance to block the poison N3.

So, Eddie suggesting that all the NKs are poison kills could be a townslip, although I'd also sort of expect him to have thought through this if that's his actual role. It's enough to get me to reconsider my read on him at least. I'm hoping my head will be less foggy tomorrow and I'll do a reread.

unvote
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: Dylan32 on May 23, 2021, 11:52:39 am
I'm here too. The weekend has been busier than normal, but I'm following along. Agree that a redirector claiming now would be very good for town here.

PPS's other points in that post are good points that I had been thinking about too, but I do worry that him being the one to make them means it's scum trying to nudge us away from the 1v1.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: scolapasta on May 23, 2021, 12:17:51 pm
I'm here too. The weekend has been busier than normal, but I'm following along. Agree that a redirector claiming now would be very good for town here.

PPS's other points in that post are good points that I had been thinking about too, but I do worry that him being the one to make them means it's scum trying to nudge us away from the 1v1.

I could imagine a passive redirector maybe? i.e. if you target one member of that TL QT, it redirects to the other (if still living). So maybe the actual target was chair's Timeline QT partner?
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: EFHW on May 23, 2021, 04:33:02 pm
Pffft. I donít think I drop poison into a game unprompted without thinking it through as scum.

It seems like you didn't think it through as town either?
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: Uncleeurope on May 23, 2021, 05:37:23 pm
Pffft. I donít think I drop poison into a game unprompted without thinking it through as scum.

It seems like you didn't think it through as town either?

I thought through what ramifications would come about by me claiming that, and deemed it worth claiming.

As scum, I probably wouldnít have just blurted out ďpoisonĒ without it being something that either exists (because I would be a poisoner or something) or I knew what exactly I was claiming.

Basically: itís a dumb thing for me to fake and get wrong as scum.

I also wasnít in this game from the start, so I have no idea how night 0 was handled. I donít even know what Faust did N0 (nothing, he did nothing).
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: WestCoastDidds on May 23, 2021, 06:46:19 pm
When Eddie fake claims, it tends to be more robust.

So, letís look harder at PPS
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: Uncleeurope on May 23, 2021, 07:20:45 pm
When Eddie fake claims, it tends to be more robust.

So, letís look harder at PPS

I havenít finished yet, though.

👀
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: WestCoastDidds on May 23, 2021, 08:21:33 pm
Are you gonna?
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: Uncleeurope on May 23, 2021, 08:58:52 pm
Are you gonna?

I doubt I will today.

I announced the bit that woulda been sad if it died with me.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: pingpongsam on May 23, 2021, 09:08:23 pm
Are you gonna?

I doubt I will today.

I announced the bit that woulda been sad if it died with me.

To be clear your flip alone would reveal nothing about poison in the game?
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: Uncleeurope on May 23, 2021, 10:03:20 pm
Are you gonna?

I doubt I will today.

I announced the bit that woulda been sad if it died with me.

To be clear your flip alone would reveal nothing about poison in the game?

It is not in the name of my ability, no.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: Uncleeurope on May 23, 2021, 10:03:39 pm
(But im town, so you can trust me)
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: Uncleeurope on May 23, 2021, 11:04:49 pm
Are you gonna?

I doubt I will today.

I announced the bit that woulda been sad if it died with me.

To be clear your flip alone would reveal nothing about poison in the game?

The more I look at this post the more confused I get.

This seems like an attempt to call me a liar, but the only time thatís relavent is if Iím dead, which will confirm that I am town and telling the truth, or that I was lying, which would be clear regardless of the word ďpoisonĒ appearing in my ability name. Because my name would be red.

This feels like it could be from a scum unable to look at outcomes right, or a scum trying to pivot to scumreading me.

I dunno, itís been scratching at the back of my head for the past chunk of time, and I donít like it.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: pingpongsam on May 24, 2021, 07:02:58 am
You are claiming something exists that should scare town into keeping you alive that cannot be verified in any way whatsoever. You suggest that flipping you would give a black and white resolution to that existence but it hinges upon you having claimed it to begin with. The point of my clarification is that were you to be NK'd with no chance to claim town would still be unaware of a poison element. This seems unlikely to me unless another town can come forward to confirm additional knowledge of poisoning.

Your suggestion about how I must be scum for seeing through this fallacy is the real scumread pivot. You've gone from reluctantly voting me out of self preservation to seeking veiled substantiation to convince others into it as well.

Of course, if you flipped town we'd be forced to believe the poison element whether we could otherwise see it or not. Acting as if I can't grok that and that makes me scum is blatantly disingenuous and an obvious scum ploy.

Vote: Eddie
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
Post by: Glooble on May 24, 2021, 07:48:17 am
Ok, so I just spent a solid half an hour going over the rest of Eddie's day 1 posts and then accidentally deleted the whole thing. I don't have the energy to do it again plus my roomates are now downstairs and being loud so I'm just going to summarize my thoughts as best I can.

Basically, I came out of it feeling a lot better about voting for Eddie. His statement about looking at QT partners comes off really scummy with the knowledge that his partner is scum. It really seems like a setup to defend himself in the event of a joth flip. This quote really seals that impression for me:

Eddie or Glooble, whichever of you are scum...
Does scum have day-chat this game? Are you QT buddies with a scum-mate? Will you be coordinating your votes with them?

(I'd ask scola too, but he's not Active timeline... guess you can still answer the first two questions).

Iím pretty suspicious I have daychat with scum, yes.

I want to look more at his interactions with joth on day 2 with that in mind.

The other thing about the end of day 1 is mathdude's strong scumreading of Eddie's opinions on how to use the vengeful cop power, which I think I more or less agree with.

The poison doctor claim reeks of desperation to me.

What E are we at?
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: Glooble on May 24, 2021, 07:51:44 am
Looks like E-2 if I'm reading right. There's no hurry though. I just went all in on one side of a 1 v 1 and it went badly for me so I want to do my due diligence this time, which means looking at Eddie's Day 2 and today and also giving pps the same amount of scrutiny. But currently I'm feeling pretty good about an Eddie exile, vague doctor claim or no.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: Glooble on May 24, 2021, 09:11:33 am
I personally would've killed Eddie

Is this a breadcrumb from chairs?

Did he die because scum thought he had a result on Eddie?

Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: Glooble on May 24, 2021, 09:19:24 am
Yeah, 2 was a bit... Optimistic.

I think the goal was that now we "know" (by attempting to Meta a set-up, which is terrifying) that PPS/Me/Chairs has a bad guy in it.

Which is great for me.

Not so much for anyone else.

Does scum!Eddie state this assumption before anyone else? This is a legit question, I can see both angles.


I canít read ash.

It is annoying me.

Joth has definitely been raising my eyebrows all game. No idea what to make of him.

Now that they are opposed makes me even more annoyed.

Trying to distance himself from joth or expression a legit scum read? Reads more like distancing to me but I worry about confirmation bias.

You guys can imagine me voting for Joth right now, if it helps.

See above. Bussing seems very safe when you are a tree stump, but what more could he do if he were town?

I feel like I need to step on in here a bit, (this being from someone with little trust for Joth, and a lack of understanding of who the heck ashersky is as a player)

If it ainít Joth/Ash in this timeline, who is it?

That is a question we should at least spend a day on, right?

But now he wants to back away from the one on one. Which scum would definitely prefer to 50/50 chance of a scum exile.
I will say that Joth has been acting slightly more townie in private than he has in the main thread.

Not much, but enough that I found it worth mentioning.

The main issue I am having is that both versions of a Joth would be frustrated at Ash right now.

I guess I feel pretty confident that Ash and Joth ainít scum buddies, but thatís it.

Now that a joth exile is looking more and more likely, he's trying to sow doubt.

How exactly has joth been acting more townie in the QT? He doesn't say. And today, when I asked him what had happened in his QT with joth, this is what he said:

How active was your QT with joth?

Did he say anything there that might be useful?

I asked for a recap of what he said with Faust, he said they claimed timelines and nothing else.

I then went silent.

When I said I scumread my QT partner he asked why while saying he town read me, then there was a long pause. He asked if We could come up with something to do in the QT so as not to waste it, I recommended chess, he said he wasnít experienced enough with chess to do that, (long pause) then he ranted about how anyone could see Ash as townier than him, and then I asked if I could put that we were partners. (He said yes.)

Where exactly is the part where joth is acting townier? (serious question for Eddie.)

Everyone else, please weigh in on the chairs breadcumb question above.

I have to get back to my job now.

Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: Glooble on May 24, 2021, 09:20:48 am
Ugh I really want to just vote for Eddie.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: Glooble on May 24, 2021, 09:22:04 am
Can somebody else ISO pps and post the juicy bits?
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: Glooble on May 24, 2021, 09:27:58 am
I will say that Joth has been acting slightly more townie in private than he has in the main thread.

Not much, but enough that I found it worth mentioning.

The main issue I am having is that both versions of a Joth would be frustrated at Ash right now.

I guess I feel pretty confident that Ash and Joth ainít scum buddies, but thatís it.

Can you say more about how joth is being towny?

Eh, his interactions with me have been minimal, but his frustration seems genuine.

But itís hard to say.

He seems bewildered as to how I (or anyone) could possibly see Ash as Townier than him.

Itís hard to say, I havenít had the best track record at reading Joth.

He also did claim to be a scummy role to me few days ago, so his fakeclaim was either figured out days ago, or it isnít fake.

I honestly canít make heads or tails of him.

I scum leaned him day 1, but his posts to me directly have left me closer to null.

Make of that what you will.

I find value in at least setting up some cases for others today.

Okay, I stopped my ISO too soon.

Emphasis mine. Really interesting that Eddie didn't mention the claim in his recap of the QT to me today. This is a scum slip. Sorry, it just is. You don't mention playing chess in the QT and forget about a claim. This is a thing you do when you are making up a fake QT because the real one is your scum QT.

vote: Eddie
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: Glooble on May 24, 2021, 09:31:29 am
That's E-1, by the way.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: Uncleeurope on May 24, 2021, 09:49:04 am
You are claiming something exists that should scare town into keeping you alive that cannot be verified in any way whatsoever. You suggest that flipping you would give a black and white resolution to that existence but it hinges upon you having claimed it to begin with. The point of my clarification is that were you to be NK'd with no chance to claim town would still be unaware of a poison element. This seems unlikely to me unless another town can come forward to confirm additional knowledge of poisoning.

Your suggestion about how I must be scum for seeing through this fallacy is the real scumread pivot. You've gone from reluctantly voting me out of self preservation to seeking veiled substantiation to convince others into it as well.

Of course, if you flipped town we'd be forced to believe the poison element whether we could otherwise see it or not. Acting as if I can't grok that and that makes me scum is blatantly disingenuous and an obvious scum ploy.

Vote: Eddie

I (and you) have no reason to assume that another town knows about poison.

Wasnít trying to scare town, I honestly have no intention of using the protective aspect of my role. The other half is more fun.

Me flipping will give Town this info:

Green: My role has the word ďpoisonĒ in it.

Red: My role may or may not have he word ďpoisonĒ in it.

Why did you ask me whether my flip would confirm poison? If green, it doesnít matter, and if Red it doesnít matter. My answer it irrelevant always.


(All replies to the next few posts will be on my phone, as with this entire game)
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: Uncleeurope on May 24, 2021, 09:51:50 am
Looks like E-2 if I'm reading right. There's no hurry though. I just went all in on one side of a 1 v 1 and it went badly for me so I want to do my due diligence this time, which means looking at Eddie's Day 2 and today and also giving pps the same amount of scrutiny. But currently I'm feeling pretty good about an Eddie exile, vague doctor claim or no.

Hahaha
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: Uncleeurope on May 24, 2021, 09:53:21 am
I personally would've killed Eddie

Is this a breadcrumb from chairs?

Did he die because scum thought he had a result on Eddie?

No. Even if I thought that, I wouldnít kill him, I would duel him with words. I donít like killing people who suspect me, itís boring.

(I actually canít remember the quote, was that about a NK or Execution?)
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: Uncleeurope on May 24, 2021, 09:55:45 am
The towny bit in Jothís QT was outrage at Ash being seen as townier Jan him. It was one post, I didnít mention it because I never told him
It was townier, so it wasnít in my QT. But if you look at my post about him being townier in the QT you can see that. Itís right there.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: Uncleeurope on May 24, 2021, 09:58:03 am
I really hate that Iím Town reading Glooble right now.

Does scum Glooble be emphatically wrong two days in a row? I donít think so. Itís bad for the olí image.

I would still say PPS/Cube if I had to guess.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: pingpongsam on May 24, 2021, 10:00:27 am
...were you to be NK'd with no chance to claim town would still be unaware of a poison element. This seems unlikely to me...

Why did you ask me whether my flip would confirm poison? If green, it doesnít matter, and if Red it doesnít matter. My answer it irrelevant always.

Bolded portion is my answer already. I have played with arsonists and bombers and in most cases it's ideal for the defusers to claim only when pressed so they aren't removed leaving the attackers unchecked. The huge upside being that if they flip without a chance to claim the presence of a delayed threat is still telegraphed. It's bad design to try to make the claim/no claim pressure cut both ways.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: Uncleeurope on May 24, 2021, 10:02:12 am
My title is ďInsulin DoctorĒ donít know what to tell you man, I didnít design this game.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: Uncleeurope on May 24, 2021, 10:06:54 am
My title is ďInsulin DoctorĒ donít know what to tell you man, I didnít design this game.

Eh, Iíll give it all, I donít mind, itís cool to talk about anyway. Iím actually quite poised here, because I can kill and scum will want to keep me alive.

Sammy here:
I am a 2-shot Poison doctor that will kill any player I use both shots (heh) on.

Thatís it, full stop.

Wanted to wait to use my power until I knew who to kill. (So I havenít used it yet)
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: Glooble on May 24, 2021, 10:07:26 am
My title is ďInsulin DoctorĒ donít know what to tell you man, I didnít design this game.

Why would an insulin doctor be in the reverse timeline? In the movie the insulin thing was in the black-and-white portion, which was being told in order. The colored portion was in reverse order. So wouldn't an insulin doctor, if there was one, be in the forward timeline?
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: Uncleeurope on May 24, 2021, 10:10:19 am
@Glooble

I canít pull it because of phone posting, but can you grab the post where I said to kill Joth anyway and to keep WCD alive?

Itís annoying too, because with me out of the picture mis-killing WCD will be easier tomorrow.

Itís possible she is faking it, but she did a town tell for her.

I could be wrong, though.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: MiX on May 24, 2021, 10:10:45 am
A poison doctor that...poisons. Huh. Interesting claim.

My title is ďInsulin DoctorĒ donít know what to tell you man, I didnít design this game.

Why would an insulin doctor be in the reverse timeline? In the movie the insulin thing was in the black-and-white portion, which was being told in order. The colored portion was in reverse order. So wouldn't an insulin doctor, if there was one, be in the forward timeline?

What if there's 2?
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: Uncleeurope on May 24, 2021, 10:12:01 am
My title is ďInsulin DoctorĒ donít know what to tell you man, I didnít design this game.

Why would an insulin doctor be in the reverse timeline? In the movie the insulin thing was in the black-and-white portion, which was being told in order. The colored portion was in reverse order. So wouldn't an insulin doctor, if there was one, be in the forward timeline?


I 100% agree with you. I also shouldnít have that power, and yet here I am.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: Uncleeurope on May 24, 2021, 10:14:23 am
Hi, MiX! You gunna kill me in a sec?
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Game Starts Tuesday!
Post by: hypercube on May 24, 2021, 10:14:33 am
Glooble's case against Eddie is pretty strong IMO. I wanted to reread faust so here are some thoughts on him:

One clear downside of timeline claiming is that it allows scum to target the PRs that can be active that Night with roleblocking, killing etc.

So here is my plan: noone votes. Instead, we use italics to Vote: xy. I agree to do vote count for italic votes. If a majority of living players agrees on an exile, then the people in the active timeline try to exile them. Otherwise, there will be no exile.

Note that scum has been killing exclusively in the inactive timeline. I think the timeline-obscuring plan was always kind of a dead end, it's not even possible to keep a majority of people's timelines secret while exiling. Also as mathdude pointed out later knowing timelines helps town PRs too.

And faust was clearly thinking about town PRs:

Your plan throws away 2 days of voting if we decide on the second day that we want to exile someone of the non-active timeline (and 1 day regardless). By that time, why would it be easier to kill scum? We would just be thinning our numbers.
It would be easier because this is an RMM with supercharged investigative PRs.

The statement about supercharged investigative PRs seemed kind of scummy and so I asked faust about it:

It would be easier because this is an RMM with supercharged investigative PRs.

Also re. faust - what is this? Either it's creating WIFOM for no obvious reason or it's rolefishing bait. Feels scummy to me in any case.
Every investigative role has a QT, i.e. they can share their results without having to claim.

I didn't realize this at the time but this is kind of a contradiction, investigative roles having QTs makes them stronger but not so much in a way that helps exiling scum D2. Anyways, given that the NKs do seem to be trying hard to avoid town PRs (which could easily have been planned out N0, especially if faust is on the team), I think faust's play seems scummy in retrospect.

PPE a bunch
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: Glooble on May 24, 2021, 10:16:27 am
OK, I'm switching my vote to see if this goes anywhere:

Vote: WCD

Scola, this is a bad idea. I know we have been at odds in the last few games, but this isnít one of them. At the very least, odds would have us on the together this game so trust that even if you donít trust me.

Okay, Iím willing to trust you.

Didds is town.

Glad we got that sorted early.

At least one productive thing happened today.

I am now happier with Jothís death than Diddsí.

This one?
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: MiX on May 24, 2021, 10:17:56 am
Hi, MiX! You gunna kill me in a sec?

Lol no, it's like 4 days til EoD.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: Uncleeurope on May 24, 2021, 10:19:34 am
OK, I'm switching my vote to see if this goes anywhere:

Vote: WCD

Scola, this is a bad idea. I know we have been at odds in the last few games, but this isnít one of them. At the very least, odds would have us on the together this game so trust that even if you donít trust me.

Okay, Iím willing to trust you.

Didds is town.

Glad we got that sorted early.

At least one productive thing happened today.

I am now happier with Jothís death than Diddsí.

This one?

Hi, MiX! You gunna kill me in a sec?

Lol no, it's like 4 days til EoD.

You guys are the best.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: Uncleeurope on May 24, 2021, 10:20:08 am
What do you guys have to say about Ash and Didds TRing me?
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: pingpongsam on May 24, 2021, 10:21:49 am
What do you guys have to say about Ash and Didds TRing me?

So...uncle could have messed up his fakeclaim here.

You mean this?
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: Uncleeurope on May 24, 2021, 10:26:04 am
What do you guys have to say about Ash and Didds TRing me?

So...uncle could have messed up his fakeclaim here.

You mean this?

Thatís the one!

(Not being able to easily pull quotes is hurting my soul)
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: Uncleeurope on May 24, 2021, 10:27:26 am
In all seriousness, I forgot about that.

He must have been having a bad day at that point.

Weíve all been there.

If you need a hug, Ash, Iím always here*




*if I donít get killed.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: hypercube on May 24, 2021, 10:36:51 am
My title is ďInsulin DoctorĒ donít know what to tell you man, I didnít design this game.

Eh, Iíll give it all, I donít mind, itís cool to talk about anyway. Iím actually quite poised here, because I can kill and scum will want to keep me alive.

Sammy here:
I am a 2-shot Poison doctor that will kill any player I use both shots (heh) on.

Thatís it, full stop.

Wanted to wait to use my power until I knew who to kill. (So I havenít used it yet)

So your flavour name is Sammy and your role is Insulin Doctor? That seems to contradict this:

Green: My role has the word ďpoisonĒ in it.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: Uncleeurope on May 24, 2021, 10:38:15 am
My role does have the word poison in it.

Just not in the title. Have you been reading the fight between PPS and I?
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: Uncleeurope on May 24, 2021, 10:40:35 am
Cube does this every game Iíve been with him as scum.

Theorize about weird scenarios and loosely throw guilt at people and try to catch people in lies that they would never mess up if hey were actually scum.

He wants to scum read people for lying, not being suspicious.

Donít donít usually scum!slip though.

Not in my experience.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: Uncleeurope on May 24, 2021, 10:41:36 am
Scum donít usually scumslip though*
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: Uncleeurope on May 24, 2021, 10:46:57 am
(By the way, thanks for not waiting until end of day to get this conversation going)

(I saw it coming and wanted an early start, it means a lot to me)

<3
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: Uncleeurope on May 24, 2021, 10:49:18 am
Also, I didnít address the ďclever distancingĒ that I did with Joth yesterday.

I donít do that as scum, itís not my meta.

Itís actually a weakness of mine.

Iím a busser or a truster.

Iíve seen too many partners get caught from distancing, So ages ago I lost my ability to do that well.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: pingpongsam on May 24, 2021, 10:55:55 am
My middle name is scumslip, I am forever proof that scumslips happen.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: hypercube on May 24, 2021, 10:57:50 am
My role does have the word poison in it.

Just not in the title. Have you been reading the fight between PPS and I?

I have been reading it - your position doesn't make sense to me. The title is the part of a role that's revealed when there's a flip, e.g. we know chairs is a Modified Motion Detector but not what that means.

Theorize about weird scenarios and loosely throw guilt at people and try to catch people in lies that they would never mess up if hey were actually scum.

What weird scenario am I theorizing about?

Scum donít usually scumslip though*

We have one dead joth here which indicates otherwise. (Actually that's an important point, joth flipping scum is strong evidence for 2 scum in this timeline)
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: Uncleeurope on May 24, 2021, 10:58:27 am
My middle name is scumslip, I am forever proof that scumslips happen.

And mine is townslip.

Forever proof that middle names donít matter.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: Uncleeurope on May 24, 2021, 11:07:10 am
My role does have the word poison in it.

Just not in the title. Have you been reading the fight between PPS and I?

I have been reading it - your position doesn't make sense to me. The title is the part of a role that's revealed when there's a flip, e.g. we know chairs is a Modified Motion Detector but not what that means.

Theorize about weird scenarios and loosely throw guilt at people and try to catch people in lies that they would never mess up if hey were actually scum.

What weird scenario am I theorizing about?

Scum donít usually scumslip though*

We have one dead joth here which indicates otherwise. (Actually that's an important point, joth flipping scum is strong evidence for 2 scum in this timeline)

My ability wonít be revealed, my name and title will be.

My ability uses the word poison (something confirmed when I flip green because I didnít lie)

My title wonít use the word poison (something confirmed with eyes)

This is not an argument. There is nothing here indicative of anything.

The other points against me are better. Use one of those.




You are theorizing that I scum slipped based on nothing, (reaching for scumminess) and when I jumped down your throat the other day it was for the same thing. I canít remember the post.

You did something similar when I was the Fool in Stormlight. You said I was cult leader. I can only assume itís a scum tell to mention (and vote using) extremely odd theories that are ďcatchingĒ someone in something they said. You thought I had claimed CL, which a CL wouldnít ever do. You thought I (as scum) forgot what my lie was, (heh) instead of it being semantics.



Was Joth putted for a scum slip or a scum tell? My understanding was it was for a tell. His reaction to pressure was bad.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: Glooble on May 24, 2021, 11:11:54 am
Eddie, I don't believe you've responded to my actual scumslip that I found.

When you were recapping your QT to me at the beginning of this day, why didn't you mention joth saying his role was scummy?
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: Uncleeurope on May 24, 2021, 11:19:31 am
Eddie, I don't believe you've responded to my actual scumslip that I found.

When you were recapping your QT to me at the beginning of this day, why didn't you mention joth saying his role was scummy?

I forgot.

Something town does far more often than scum by the way...

But, yeah. That whole recap post was done from memory. Hard to navigate QTs and stuff at the same time (did I mention I have been phone posting?)

But like I said, Scum me doesnít get caught in lies like that. Ask MIX, whenever I have a fake conversation with a partner in these games I plan everything out.

So in the end, because I know this, I probably would have recounted my fake conversation from memory as well, so this whole thing is NAI.

Were you expecting another answer besides ďI forgotĒ ?
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: hypercube on May 24, 2021, 11:22:56 am
My ability wonít be revealed, my name and title will be.

My ability uses the word poison (something confirmed when I flip green because I didnít lie)

My title wonít use the word poison (something confirmed with eyes)

This is not an argument. There is nothing here indicative of anything.

The other points against me are better. Use one of those.

You are theorizing that I scum slipped based on nothing, (reaching for scumminess) and when I jumped down your throat the other day it was for the same thing. I canít remember the post.

OK, so you meant "Me flipping will give Town this info: Green: My role has the word ďpoisonĒ in it." as "Me flipping green will make you believe me." That's why I wanted you to clarify - I did not, as you are saying, jump down your throat and insist you'd scumslipped.

You did something similar when I was the Fool in Stormlight. You said I was cult leader. I can only assume itís a scum tell to mention (and vote using) extremely odd theories that are ďcatchingĒ someone in something they said. You thought I had claimed CL, which a CL wouldnít ever do. You thought I (as scum) forgot what my lie was, (heh) instead of it being semantics.

The cult leader thing is a great example of an off-the-wall theory, I don't think "Eddie is scum" is a weird theory here.

Was Joth putted for a scum slip or a scum tell? My understanding was it was for a tell. His reaction to pressure was bad.

ash pointed out something that could be a scumslip and then joth folded under the pressure. The first part was important for getting to the second part.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: Glooble on May 24, 2021, 11:30:45 am
I don't buy it.

I think you forgot that you had told us that joth claimed to you in the QT.

On another note, chairs was a modified motion detector. So if he was trying to breadcrumb a result on Eddie, what kind of incriminating result might he have gotten? A normal motion detector can only tell if an action was performed by or on a player. But modified probably means chairs was able to get a little more info (just because I can't imagine a role that gives less info, motion detector is pretty much the bare minimum.)

Eddie claims to have taken no actions, right? If he has two shots, and he preferred to use the vig ability which expends both of them? So if chairs saw anything and Eddie is telling the truth, that means someone targeted Eddie. Anyone want to own up to that?

I really think chairs was breadcrumbing, by the way. I just don't see any other reason he says that. Given how generally inactive he was, given the total lack of context for that statement, it just seems like a very clear case of "if I'm not around to claim this result later, kill Eddie."
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: Uncleeurope on May 24, 2021, 11:40:38 am
I didnít take an action, and I also saw that he was motion detector.

Claiming that is daring, wouldnít you say? [Insert Pubby Glasses here]

And Iím not even going to bother with your claim about me messing up my fake claim.

Other than ďThe moment I claimed that Joth claimed a scummy role to me I woulda written it down and the act of writing it down would have made sure I never forgot.

Probably.

And I also knew nothing I said would have made you change your mind. Do you ever change your mind, Glooble?
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: Glooble on May 24, 2021, 11:49:19 am
Do you ever change your mind, Glooble?

Believe it or not going into this day it was a dead heat between you and PPS, and now I'm pretty convinced its you. So I did change my mind.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
Post by: hypercube on May 24, 2021, 11:54:07 am
Things from rereading PPS:

I didn't get much from his D1, lots of setup talk.

D2 he does go after joth a lot, however he says lateish in the day that he was doing that because he assumed ash had a result on joth. In light of that, I don't think he really deserves credit for wanting to exile joth, given that scum!PPS would probably see a good opportunity to bus if joth was actually incriminated.

Solid argument, can't disagree there. Wish someone had brought that up earlier, haha. I was literally assuming Joth to be scum because ash made a statement suggesting he had results. My brain didn't fill in that blank, though. Was the rest of my analysis deeply colored by that assumption? Yes. Is it thus wrong? Not necessarily.

D3 there's this business of forgetting how mathdude's result worked. What's kind of interesting is that this:

So, it's just a simple commitment to the assumption that 2 scum would not have been on the math wagon?

is only an hour away from this:

I think the whole nature of the mathdude kamikaze circumstance makes the wagon analysis a complete shot in the dark. What about anyone's position on or off the wagon tells us their potential alignment? It was a town gambit that required town participation to happen. I find it ironic that his name is mathdude and as a very non mathdude myself I still see his number guess as the poorest utility in the event of being wrong. I personally and quite averse to gambling and while I'm probably poor at risk assessment I like to think I can solve basic odds analysis. Of the options 0,1,2 I feel he picked the worst one and that is self evident today. High risk high reward or abysmal payoff.

so I guess PPS forgot that we had mod confirmation that there weren't 2 scum on wagon very quickly. I'm not really sure if that's alignment indicative although it seemed worth pointing out.

After that PPS starts going after Eddie which I think there are good reasons to do whether PPS is town or scum.

So I'm left with a pretty null read on PPS. There wasn't anything really scummy in there, but my townread on them was mostly based on their going after joth and now I'm disinclined to give townpoints for that.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: Uncleeurope on May 24, 2021, 11:57:44 am
Do you ever change your mind, Glooble?

Believe it or not going into this day it was a dead heat between you and PPS, and now I'm pretty convinced its you. So I did change my mind.

Ayyyy, good for you.

I may be an idiot for town reading you. Maybe EFHW/Ash are right and you are scum.

If I flip (probs should wait for MiX/Awaclus to weigh in more, but there ya go.) I would throw Cube/PPS/EFHW/Pasta under the bus in roughly that order. Probs wrong about some of that. And a lot of it is hazy.



If I stay alive we should discuss who I should kill. Ya know... in 3 nights.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: Uncleeurope on May 24, 2021, 12:03:17 pm
The important bit here:

Who is my partner, people.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: Awaclus on May 24, 2021, 12:07:54 pm
The important bit here:

Who is my partner, people.

Joth.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: Uncleeurope on May 24, 2021, 12:08:55 pm
I feel like every time I play this game people rally together and say ďhaha he forgot something as scum, get himĒ

Well, except for when Iím Scum.

(Obligatory post I make every time Iím on trial - NAI)
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: Uncleeurope on May 24, 2021, 12:10:23 pm
The important bit here:

Who is my partner, people.

Joth.

No, silly, my scum partner. Not my QT partner.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: ashersky on May 24, 2021, 08:38:51 pm
I had no actual read on uncle before.  I now have a straight mafia read on him, based solely on his posts since whenever I last posted.

Everything is OMGUS, self-referential meta explanations, and doubling-down the claim.  Pretty straightforward "mafia who lost a partner" play, really.

Glooble's case seemed okay, helpful to see the posts together.  Forgetting the claim in the QT is pretty bad.  Lukewarm defense of joth resembles Scola, so that could be the three-person team if that's what we are looking for.

Am I to understand the uncle vs. PPS thing is solely based on the still ridiculous belief that we somehow know exactly how many non-town we have in this timeline based on that Mathdude guess?  Because that's a terrible reason to limit discussion to two players.  (The irony, of course, being that I used an argument against that belief as a reason to limit discussion to two players.  But that's okay, because I was right.)

Also, PPS is worth keeping around.  His running commentary on my play makes for a more fun game.  If he's mafia, he'll slip before the end of the game.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: ashersky on May 24, 2021, 08:39:33 pm
Also...

request prod/sub: Galzria
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: pingpongsam on May 24, 2021, 09:30:19 pm
Also, PPS is worth keeping around.  His running commentary on my play makes for a more fun game.  If he's mafia, he'll slip before the end of the game.

Thanks, bb!
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: Uncleeurope on May 24, 2021, 09:50:32 pm
I had no actual read on uncle before.  I now have a straight mafia read on him, based solely on his posts since whenever I last posted.

Everything is OMGUS, self-referential meta explanations, and doubling-down the claim.  Pretty straightforward "mafia who lost a partner" play, really.

Glooble's case seemed okay, helpful to see the posts together.  Forgetting the claim in the QT is pretty bad.  Lukewarm defense of joth resembles Scola, so that could be the three-person team if that's what we are looking for.

Am I to understand the uncle vs. PPS thing is solely based on the still ridiculous belief that we somehow know exactly how many non-town we have in this timeline based on that Mathdude guess?  Because that's a terrible reason to limit discussion to two players.  (The irony, of course, being that I used an argument against that belief as a reason to limit discussion to two players.  But that's okay, because I was right.)

Also, PPS is worth keeping around.  His running commentary on my play makes for a more fun game.  If he's mafia, he'll slip before the end of the game.

I voted and scumread all parties before they pointed at me. So thatís a load of garbage.

Town forgets things too (and even more than scum)

My meta is to self-referential meta explain. Read any town game where I get pushed.

I did lose a partner, but only from my QT.


Booooring, I want a better case on me than that. Something worth the effort of posting.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: Uncleeurope on May 24, 2021, 09:54:17 pm
Also,  I have no idea what ďdoubling down on claimĒ means.

So youíre going to have to explain that one to me, itís possible thatís a worthy argument.

Are you talking about my little duel with Cube?
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: ashersky on May 24, 2021, 10:34:46 pm
What I meant was that you have basically repeated your claim multiple times, tying it to you being town.  That action in and of itself isn't alignment-indicative, but I think that it is more often repeated when the claim is fake.

To me, the first claim was fine.  When it has been discussed by you in subsequent posts, though, it reads as though you are just repeating the same language.  There are aspects that seem like you are being careful not to mess up the claim.  And no "new" information came with any subsequent posts.

Like, a quick example below.  Imagine each new line is a new post, with the game going on between.

"I'm a cop."
"No, I don't want to share results."
"I think it's better if I don't."
"Fine, I got innocent on X."
"Yes, I know they already flipped, so it's convenient."
"I targeted Y on N2 but got no result."

That's sort of a normal chain of a cop claim.  It's definitely fake-able, but makes sense.  Here's how your thread reads to me:

"I know there's poison in the game but I'm no poisoner, so you should definitely assume I'm a poison doctor!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
"Okay, yeah, you got my super subtle hint there.  I'm a poison doctor."
"Yeah, I'm a poison doctor."
"The word poison might show up in a flip because I'm a poison doctor."
"Poison doctor poison doctor.  Two words are important.  Poison doctor."
"Poison.  Doctor."
"If I flip town, you'll know I'm poison doctor without the word poison.  Poison Doctor.  If I flip red, I'm lying.  Poison Doctor."
"P-p-p-poisoooooooooon Doctor!"

You "full claimed" after a long run of that and no one really liking it.  That is what I mean about your double-down.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: Uncleeurope on May 24, 2021, 10:51:12 pm
Thatís because Cube was badgering me about nonsense.

But whatever.

Not much more I can do there.

Other than wait for MiX to either defend or condemn me.

Or Cube could just hammer me.

I am absolutely bewildered as to why people would assume my behavior this game would come from a scum player who was actually trying to win the game.

Oh wait, no. My behavior is a ďscum player who lost a partnerĒ and apparently I couldnít care less about my other partners?

*rolls eyes*
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: Uncleeurope on May 24, 2021, 10:53:26 pm
Also, did you want me to just go ďIím a poison doctor who can kill peopleĒ out of the gate?

You even questioned my initial poison claim IIRC. Of course I would hide the juicy bit until later.

Anyone would.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: Uncleeurope on May 24, 2021, 10:58:04 pm
Also also, do you think I made up the killing part after I thought you guys ďdidnít likeĒ my previous claim?

Uhhhh... no.

First of all, the thematic reasonings, also the thematic reasonings, and thereís also the flavor to consider.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: MiX on May 24, 2021, 11:05:05 pm
Also also, do you think I made up the killing part after I thought you guys ďdidnít likeĒ my previous claim?

Uhhhh... no.

First of all, the thematic reasonings, also the thematic reasonings, and thereís also the flavor to consider.

It's not an uncle fakeclaim if it doesn't look awesome.

Other than wait for MiX to either defend or condemn me.

I feel the pressure here. Thankfully I can just say I didn't reread anything yet. I'm actually paying attention to the thread though, and sadly uncle does seem like he can be scum. I also townread hyper, so...

Hopefully this changes with a reread so I can earn the glory of defending uncle and being correct in doing so.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: EFHW on May 24, 2021, 11:07:27 pm
I'm still scumreading Glooble the most. I find Eddie believable for the moment. I'm on my phone, did the kill flavor reflect poisoning or delay at all?
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: MiX on May 24, 2021, 11:10:45 pm
I'm still scumreading Glooble the most. I find Eddie believable for the moment. I'm on my phone, did the kill flavor reflect poisoning or delay at all?

No, not at all.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: Uncleeurope on May 24, 2021, 11:30:04 pm
Also also, do you think I made up the killing part after I thought you guys ďdidnít likeĒ my previous claim?

Uhhhh... no.

First of all, the thematic reasonings, also the thematic reasonings, and thereís also the flavor to consider.

It's not an uncle fakeclaim if it doesn't look awesome.

Other than wait for MiX to either defend or condemn me.

I feel the pressure here. Thankfully I can just say I didn't reread anything yet. I'm actually paying attention to the thread though, and sadly uncle does seem like he can be scum. I also townread hyper, so...

Hopefully this changes with a reread so I can earn the glory of defending uncle and being correct in doing so.

Even though I asked you to trust me, you complying is making me uneasy.

No one ever trusts me.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: Glooble on May 25, 2021, 02:49:07 pm
Well, this day stalled out.

I tried to reread PPS but it honestly came out extremely null. Lots of setup talk in the early day 1, more or less agreed with me on mathdude's plan usage, and then came down pretty hard anti-joth day 2 but then of course revealed that he thought ash was soft-claiming cop. It's all very NAI and I'm finding it hard to care when I have a scumread on Uncle that's so much stronger.

Also, the wagon is stalled at E-1, I seem to recall folks yesterday saying that was a pretty good indicator that the wagon might be on scum.

Cube, MiX - care to put us out of our collective misery and end the day already? We have the ash stamp of approval.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: Uncleeurope on May 25, 2021, 02:56:56 pm
Scummy/Towny players are usually town and null players are usually scum.

Just a bit of advice.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: Uncleeurope on May 25, 2021, 02:59:50 pm
Weird how thereís no counter-wagon.

And how uninvested the other timeline is. Surely my other partner over there would be doing... something...
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: Glooble on May 25, 2021, 03:05:03 pm
Weird how thereís no counter-wagon.

And how uninvested the other timeline is. Surely my other partner over there would be doing... something...

Especially since if it's 3/1 we pretty much know that this is the timeline with the 1.

Right?
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: Uncleeurope on May 25, 2021, 03:14:17 pm
Weird how thereís no counter-wagon.

And how uninvested the other timeline is. Surely my other partner over there would be doing... something...

Especially since if it's 3/1 we pretty much know that this is the timeline with the 1.

Right?

Why is 3-1 suddenly a theory? Did I miss that one?
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: Uncleeurope on May 25, 2021, 03:17:33 pm
(Thatís also more reason to think that the other timeline would giggle a crap about me)

But hey, maybe they are sending me off into the sunset for being so bad at playing as scum.

I probably deserve it.

To be fair I didnít know I was scum, which makes it harder to behave like one.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: Uncleeurope on May 25, 2021, 03:19:42 pm
(Thatís also more reason to think that the other timeline would give a crap about me)

But hey, maybe they are sending me off into the sunset for being so bad at playing as scum.

I probably deserve it.

To be fair I didnít know I was scum, which makes it harder to behave like one.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: Glooble on May 25, 2021, 03:26:39 pm
Weird how thereís no counter-wagon.

And how uninvested the other timeline is. Surely my other partner over there would be doing... something...

Especially since if it's 3/1 we pretty much know that this is the timeline with the 1.

Right?

Why is 3-1 suddenly a theory? Did I miss that one?

There's only so many possible configurations.

But chairs was killed, and if joth was the sole scum in the forward timeline that seems impossible.

Ergo, if it is 3 - 1, then it's 3 forward, 1 reverse.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: MiX on May 25, 2021, 03:33:00 pm
Or, hmm, chairs was poisoned.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: Glooble on May 25, 2021, 03:52:24 pm
Or, hmm, chairs was poisoned.

I suppose.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: Swowl on May 25, 2021, 04:43:50 pm
Vote Count 3.2:

Eddie (3): Awaclus, PPS, Glooble
PPS (1): Eddie
Not Voting (8): MiX, EFHW, WCD, scolapasta, Galzria, Ashersky, Dylan32, hypercube

With 6 alive on the ACTIVE TIMELINE, it takes 4 to Exile.
Day 3 ends Friday, May 28th at 1:05am Forum Time.

Today the active timeline is the REVERSE TIMELINE. We will remain in the REVERSE TIMELINE until the start of Day 2.
Only players from the currently active timeline may vote, or be voted for.

*I am just back from a long weekend. I will issue prods requested and look over activity in a few hours when I have a break at work.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: Uncleeurope on May 25, 2021, 05:01:18 pm
Or, hmm, chairs was poisoned.

Because of the ďSorry for the delayĒ bit? Thatís a bit weak considering Swowl was late to deadline there.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: MiX on May 25, 2021, 05:02:26 pm
Or, hmm, chairs was poisoned.

Because of the ďSorry for the delayĒ bit? Thatís a bit weak considering Swowl was late to deadline there.

What? No. If there's only 1 scum in forward timeline, chairs' death would have been due to poisoning.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: Uncleeurope on May 25, 2021, 05:11:45 pm
Or, hmm, chairs was poisoned.

Because of the ďSorry for the delayĒ bit? Thatís a bit weak considering Swowl was late to deadline there.

What? No. If there's only 1 scum in forward timeline, chairs' death would have been due to poisoning.

Okay, I thought that was tied to your flavor digging from before, that makes more sense.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: hypercube on May 25, 2021, 05:24:20 pm
Am I to understand the uncle vs. PPS thing is solely based on the still ridiculous belief that we somehow know exactly how many non-town we have in this timeline based on that Mathdude guess?  Because that's a terrible reason to limit discussion to two players.  (The irony, of course, being that I used an argument against that belief as a reason to limit discussion to two players.  But that's okay, because I was right.)

Do you think joth was lying when he implied there were two scum per timeline?
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: Uncleeurope on May 25, 2021, 05:29:58 pm
I think having one timeline start at a 3 v 5 is insane.

I think itís max 2 baddies per timeline.

The question is mpreso: are there 3 or 4 baddies.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: MiX on May 25, 2021, 05:39:00 pm
Wait wait wait.

If there's 3 scum in reverse, we can't kill scum today.

So that shouldn't even be considered, regardless of truth.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: Uncleeurope on May 25, 2021, 05:41:19 pm
Wait wait wait.

If there's 3 scum in reverse, we can't kill scum today.

So that shouldn't even be considered, regardless of truth.

Then Iím a fantastic kill.

(Seriously, though, whatís the issue with killing a scum in a 3-1 scenario? Are you thinking the scum are on opposite teams? Why are you thinking that? Because they are killing accrross timelines?
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: ashersky on May 25, 2021, 07:52:55 pm
Uncle scumslipped.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: MiX on May 25, 2021, 07:53:15 pm
Uncle scumslipped.

Where, in the claims?
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: Awaclus on May 25, 2021, 07:53:32 pm
(Seriously, though, whatís the issue with killing a scum in a 3-1 scenario? Are you thinking the scum are on opposite teams? Why are you thinking that? Because they are killing accrross timelines?

The issue is that if there are 3 scum in reverse, there are also only 3 town. It takes 4 to exile.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: ashersky on May 25, 2021, 07:56:00 pm
Also, as pointed out, there's really no other option today anyway.

Also also, it's Day 3, which means two nights have passed, so where's his nk?  That's suspect to me, as with such a lengthy process to get your power to work, he should have been doing his best.  At least claimed you primed someone who was then exiled or something.

Also, killing powers that require priming are basically always non-town.  Poison Doctor-Vigilante definitely sounds like a wacky fakeclaim to cover up very normal mafia powers.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: ashersky on May 25, 2021, 07:56:30 pm
Thatís because Cube was badgering me about nonsense.

But whatever.

Not much more I can do there.

Other than wait for MiX to either defend or condemn me.

Or Cube could just hammer me.

I am absolutely bewildered as to why people would assume my behavior this game would come from a scum player who was actually trying to win the game.

Oh wait, no. My behavior is a ďscum player who lost a partnerĒ and apparently I couldnít care less about my other partners?

*rolls eyes*
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: ashersky on May 25, 2021, 07:58:28 pm
It's not that town players can't make assumptions about the number of non-town in the game.  It's the way he responded specifically to my point and assumed I was assuming joth was his only partner.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: MiX on May 25, 2021, 08:03:45 pm
It's not that town players can't make assumptions about the number of non-town in the game.  It's the way he responded specifically to my point and assumed I was assuming joth was his only partner.

I don't get it. I'll probably never get it.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: ashersky on May 25, 2021, 08:05:06 pm
Also, almost every single post has been flippant and dismissive, and not in a faust way.  There are usually two reasons for that type of play: pressure or character.

I don't know uncle, although we've played before.  I do know the community, and we have all sometimes lost our way, but we generally find a way back, usually through reflection, a time away, or meaningful apologies and conversation.  So I'm ruling out character here.

That leaves pressure.  Players respond in different ways to pressure when non-town.  That's one of the big ways we try to catch them.  That's how I zeroed in on joth.  Uncle using insults and sarcasm really reads as a player who is deflecting his own feelings of nervousness and fear to others.

Have you ever had that friend or acquaintance that, when they say something incorrect and it is pointed out to them, they just get mean and nasty instead of thankful or humble?  It's like that, only it's caught mafia instead of a wrong answer to a random trivia question or something.

To bring back my example I used with joth:

Uncle:  Hey, did you know that McDonald's was founded in 1954?
Me: Actually, I think it was 1955, but yeah, that's so cool that it's been around so long.
Uncle:  No dude, it was 1954.  I know what I'm talking about.  Who would have thought fast food would make such an impact on society over so many years?
Me: Hmmm...[googles]...yeah, looks like 1955.  April 15 to be exact.  Close though.  Definitely, at the time, I'm sure fast food meant...
Uncle:  Screw you man.  What kind of friend are you?  I can't believe I'm even talking to you.  Even your hair looks stupid.  F this.  I'm out.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: ashersky on May 25, 2021, 08:08:05 pm
It's not that town players can't make assumptions about the number of non-town in the game.  It's the way he responded specifically to my point and assumed I was assuming joth was his only partner.

I don't get it. I'll probably never get it.

Well, you make assumptions in a way different to most players.  It brings a diverse and useful point of view to the game, actually.  You don't always present in the best way, though.  (As you know, as has been pointed out many times, if you would present your thoughts as ideas and possibilities instead of facts and certainties, you'd get way more traction.)

I think people make assumptions in game based on their knowledge gleaned from their role in the game.  So a mafia player ends up reacting to every other post in the game with that angle, whether they want to or not.  If uncle is a member of a 3-person mafia team, that's something he cannot unlearn.  He can definitely work to hide it.

When I wrote a sentence that could be taken to mean I think he is a member of a 2-person mafia team, he couldn't help but correct me.  That's the slip.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: MiX on May 25, 2021, 08:14:58 pm
I don't know uncle, although we've played before.  I do know the community, and we have all sometimes lost our way, but we generally find a way back, usually through reflection, a time away, or meaningful apologies and conversation.  So I'm ruling out character here.

I don't understand how you ruled out character.

It's not that town players can't make assumptions about the number of non-town in the game.  It's the way he responded specifically to my point and assumed I was assuming joth was his only partner.

I don't get it. I'll probably never get it.

When I wrote a sentence that could be taken to mean I think he is a member of a 2-person mafia team, he couldn't help but correct me.  That's the slip.

But that was his argument. He couldn't not correct you and say what he said at the same time.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: Awaclus on May 25, 2021, 08:18:27 pm
But that was his argument. He couldn't not correct you and say what he said at the same time.

How would he know that there's something that needs correcting?
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: Uncleeurope on May 25, 2021, 09:05:48 pm
I will say that I have no idea what you see.

But one thing is certain: I definitely didnít scumslip.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: Uncleeurope on May 25, 2021, 09:08:14 pm
Ohhh, I get it. Yeah, I have been assuming a single team this whole time.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: Uncleeurope on May 25, 2021, 09:10:18 pm
I thought you were saying I was throwing, which would be ridiculous if I had more partners.

So yes, it was an assumption, but hardly a scummy one.

And my kill wonít happen until tonight. (It actually wonít happen tonight either because I didnít act last night, as previously stated)

(I wanted to wait on a scum read)

(I have those now, I can start killing!)

(In three nights...)
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: Uncleeurope on May 25, 2021, 09:21:33 pm
Ash scumslipped, he thought I could act each night.

We should kill him.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: Uncleeurope on May 25, 2021, 09:27:43 pm
Uncle:  Hey, did you know that McDonald's was founded in 1954?
Me: Actually, I think it was 1955, but yeah, that's so cool that it's been around so long.
Uncle:  No dude, it was 1954.  I know what I'm talking about.  Who would have thought fast food would make such an impact on society over so many years?
Me: Hmmm...[googles]...yeah, looks like 1955.  April 15 to be exact.  Close though.  Definitely, at the time, I'm sure fast food meant...
Uncle:  Screw you man.  What kind of friend are you?  I can't believe I'm even talking to you.  Even your hair looks stupid.  F this.  I'm out.

Except in the world we are in now, Iím the one that said 1955, you are wrong, and threatening to kill me.

Sooo...
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: Uncleeurope on May 25, 2021, 09:49:59 pm
By the way: I am having fun, and am in no way upset. Confused and amused? Yes, but not upset.

Please take my whining to be what I mean it to be: a juvenile temper tantrum for my own amusement.

That being said, letís do a more realistic example:

Ash: Your middle name is Greg
Uncle: Nah, itís not.
Ash: Iím pretty sure it is.
Uncle: The PM I got from Swowl says that my middle name is Green.
Ash: Well, letís kill you.
Uncle: I am thoroughly confused as to how that could be the next logical step at this moment.
Ash: Nah, you accidentally said that your middle name started with a G. I know itís Greg.
Uncle: Okay, but you are wrong, and I will likely laugh at your foolishness. And probably mock you.
Ash: But laughing is rude?

(But seriously, though, I am not intending to be a jerk here, and donít mean any Iíll intent to any of you people)
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: Uncleeurope on May 25, 2021, 10:01:34 pm
@MiX

Either tell people Iím Town or kill me.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: pingpongsam on May 25, 2021, 10:12:43 pm
@MiX

Either tell people Iím Town or kill me.

Do town things.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: Uncleeurope on May 25, 2021, 10:43:32 pm
@MiX

Either tell people Iím Town or kill me.

Do town things.

Iíve done nothing but town things this whole time.

I am screaming Iím Town from the rooftops, but people seem to be ignoring me.

Iíd be townreading me, but that isnít worth much.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: ashersky on May 25, 2021, 11:12:42 pm
@MiX

Either tell people Iím Town or kill me.

Do town things.

Iíve done nothing but town things this whole time.

I am screaming Iím Town from the rooftops, but people seem to be ignoring me.

Iíd be townreading me, but that isnít worth much.

You could present an alternative.

I think defending yourself only works if there is something specific that is refutable.  Like, my read is just a read, you can't refute it because it's my opinion.  Either I convince people that my opinion is correct, like it was with joth, or you convince people that something else is correct.  I think convincing people I'm wrong is futile and even if you succeed, you leave yourself as the only doable exile as time runs out.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: ashersky on May 25, 2021, 11:13:24 pm
Uncle:  Hey, did you know that McDonald's was founded in 1954?
Me: Actually, I think it was 1955, but yeah, that's so cool that it's been around so long.
Uncle:  No dude, it was 1954.  I know what I'm talking about.  Who would have thought fast food would make such an impact on society over so many years?
Me: Hmmm...[googles]...yeah, looks like 1955.  April 15 to be exact.  Close though.  Definitely, at the time, I'm sure fast food meant...
Uncle:  Screw you man.  What kind of friend are you?  I can't believe I'm even talking to you.  Even your hair looks stupid.  F this.  I'm out.

Except in the world we are in now, Iím the one that said 1955, you are wrong, and threatening to kill me.

Sooo...

I'm not threatening to do anything.  I can't even vote in this timeline.  I'm just sharing opinions even when I am not part of the timeline because not many other players are doing much of anything.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: ashersky on May 25, 2021, 11:13:35 pm
prod or sub galz, again
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: ashersky on May 25, 2021, 11:14:55 pm
Ash scumslipped, he thought I could act each night.

We should kill him.

Who did you prime?
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: Uncleeurope on May 25, 2021, 11:20:19 pm
Iím willing to make my alternative Glooble.

I know he interests you.

Prime? Iím going to assume you mean Doctor.

I wasnít allowed to act last night, so no kill would have happened yet.

That being said, I decided not to act my first night either.

Didnít have a scum read and had little interest in attempting to doctor someone.

I only get two shots after all.

Plus I saw it as unlikely that I would be executed this game. I am rarely executed...
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: Uncleeurope on May 25, 2021, 11:24:33 pm
Smattering of cases:

PPS is null to everyone - Usually means scum

Cube has a scumtell (I think) that he seems to be falling into this game. Itís at least something I have on file for the guy, I could easily be wrong, but he did the tell, so...

Glooble I trust more... but is definitely more likely to be scum than I am.

Awaclus...

MiX is posting not at all, which is a MiX-has-been-body-swapped-tell. He could be scum based on that alone. Itís weirdong me out and I canít shake it. That being said, I have no real reason to distrust him.

I think WCD is town.

There. Thatís about it.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: Swowl on May 26, 2021, 12:53:03 am
Prods have been sent to players requested.
Galzria has been given a 24 hour warning. A sub will be put in if they cannot post within that window
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: ashersky on May 26, 2021, 01:04:59 am
You write a post where you put up Glooble as the alternative.

In the next post, you have him like 3rd on your list, making him basically a self-preservation candidate.

That's..not good.

And remember, I'm on the Glooble bandwagon given his D2 jothfest.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: Uncleeurope on May 26, 2021, 01:06:49 am
Thatís exactly what it is, a self-preservation pick.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: Uncleeurope on May 26, 2021, 01:08:31 am
Iím looking at Glooble differently than you, I donít think he would be this emphatic about a wrong opinion two days in a row as scum.

Thatís why I town read him.

Once I flip town, would you change your mind about Glooble?

Because thatís the perspective I see him in.

That being said, send him into the fire of it means I live.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: Galzria on May 26, 2021, 01:10:11 am
Posting within that window.

Ugh.

My motivation to play here has been very lacking recently. Thatís on nobody but me. Truth is this whole setup had me not in a good place. I struggle mightily D1 in general - so do a lot of people, do not really using it as an excuse, just saying... Additionally, being ďdisabledĒ D1 just made it that much worse for me. D2, when I was on the active Timeline I was legitimately swamped with work. And now... weíre back to me being disabled.

Iím not blaming the setup - I actually think itís really cool. It has just not worked for me here.

Alright - Iím going to spend tomorrow morning and afternoon doing my best to get caught up and involved. If Iím unable to do so I will ask to sub out.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: Dylan32 on May 26, 2021, 04:37:43 am
Sorry, I've started to post and gotten distracted by life like 3 times the last couple days...
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: Dylan32 on May 26, 2021, 04:45:35 am
So at this point, I am kind of scumready Eddie and Glooble for different reasons, but I'm not sure if they would be scum together.

Post #941 is interesting, and I kind of think scummy from Glooble because he was all in on Joth's 2-2 assumption was reasonable and Joth was town, but here he seems completely ready to accept a different possibility. It seems to me like scum!Joth got caught in part because he felt particularly comfortable with the 2-2 assumption, which with his flip is fairly likely to suggest it really is 2-2 since Joth was just saying things he knew to be true a little bit more confidently than town that was guessing would. Of course maybe that was a lie and Joth was just unlucky enough to get caught even though the initial reasons for it were just completely wrong, ultimately it doesn't matter.

But now for Glooble to bail on that assumption this easily feels more like scum A) distancing from a flipped partner's stated opinions B) distancing from the stance they had taken earlier that got a partner exiled or C) scum now trying to steer town away from the true information that was accidentally strongly confirmed by a partner's statements and flip.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: Dylan32 on May 26, 2021, 04:51:01 am
Honestly, I agree with a lot of what Ash said about Eddie's tone and defense of himself. Maybe it is what he normally does, but I don't remember any of our previous games and constantly saying "I'm so towny and have only done towny things, I'm super cereal you guys! Listen to me so we can stop Manbearpig mafia, guys!"

I also don't like that Ash reasonably told Eddie that the way to avoid being the exile was to layout a case on someone else and convince town they are better (I agree and have been waiting for Eddie to try to do that for a while), but Eddie's response isn't to build a case on someone he thinks is scummier, it's a pure self-pres wagon that he thought would be easy to get through that he had a townread on... That just seems more scum than town.

If I were active timeline, I'd vote Eddie and move on to tomorrow, but would rather see Glooble flip than anyone else in lieu of that.
Title: Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
Post by: Glooble<