Dominion Strategy Forum
Dominion => Dominion General Discussion => Topic started by: Donald X. on March 05, 2020, 03:00:32 am
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First we have Ways. There are 20 of these. Okay so. They're landscape cards like Events and Landmarks and Projects. You deal them out the same way, except, don't use more than one Way per game (that's my advice anyway). A Way gives an alternate use to all Action cards that game. When you play an Action card, pick, do you want its normal function, or do you want the Way. If you want the Way, you just do what the Way says, that's that. It's like Action cards all say, "Choose one: that Way thing, or what this normally does." We turn the Action card sideways to remember which ones did the Way. Stuff below a dividing line is unaffected; if it's like, "While this is in play, something something," that will still happen.
Ways work any time you play an Action card. This means for example that if you play Sheepdog via its reaction, that can still use a Way if you want. If you Throne Room a card, it could be the Way the first time, not-the-Way the second time, or any combination. As always there's a rulebook, you'll get to see it eventually.
(https://imgur.com/BDZVRhC.png)
Way of the Ox is a simple one: +2 Actions. In games with this, every Action card can instead be used for +2 Actions. Your hand is nothing but Smithies? Play one for +2 Actions and away you go. Or, what was that thing from two days ago? Horses, that's right. Way of the Ox lets you play a Horse for +2 Actions, and still have it for later. And a Necropolis, well, uh, maybe the next one will be better for Necropolis.
Way of the Mole is also simple, there are a bunch of simple ones.
Way of the Turtle is a trickier one. It lets you play any card to set itself aside and replay it next turn. Way of the Turtle says "this" on it, but that's the card you played, it's not Way of the Turtle itself. You don't want your Moneylender this turn, so you Turtle it, and play it at the start of your next turn. I hear you asking, but wait, when you play it next turn, can't you just use Way of the Turtle again to save it for the turn after that? Yes, of course you can. If you want, it can be Turtles all the way down.
Online, you can click on a button on an Action card to instead do the Way with one click. You can also click on the Way itself, highlighting it, then click on an Action in hand. Cards like Throne Room and Vassal pause to give you a chance to use the Way on the extra play.
Menagerie also has 20 Events. They're just like the ones in Adventures and Empires, only new. In your Buy phase, you can use a Buy and pay the cost to generate the effect. Some of the Events involve Horses or Exile, but many don't, including these three.
(https://imgur.com/CYlCX9L.png)
Toil gives you a way to turn cash into playing Action cards from your hand. It's a secret village, for certain kinds of things. And if you just have $2 left you can't do anything useful with, you can Toil ironically.
Commerce makes some amount of Gold, depending on the variety of cards you've gained this turn. Scrap an Estate for a Silver and a Horse and you're well on your way.
Populate is a big one. You gain one card from each Action supply pile. Foosh! That's potentially 10 cards in a game without Ruins or Young Witch, though some piles may not be Actions, and if a good pile ran out, tough luck. And you can't say, "no I don't want that Beggar and that Ruined Library." You get to pick the order they show up, or online can click on a "random order" button when you don't care.
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So, there's no limit to how many times you can use the Ways? E.g., if you have four Action cards in your hand, you can do them all as a Way? I can see why you'd recommend only one Way in a game. Are all the Ways named after animals?
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So, there's no limit to how many times you can use the Ways? E.g., if you have four Action cards in your hand, you can do them all as a Way? I can see why you'd recommend only one Way in a game. Are all the Ways named after animals?
Yes, you can use the Way over and over. They are all animals.
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I'm so excited for Ways. This looks like a ton of fun. Whenever I'm sitting there like "man, I wish I had drawn a village instead" or "I wish I had drawn this next turn," I can just do that now.
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Way of the Turtle would be quite convenient for cards whose usefulness depends on what's in your hand. E.g., you could keep setting aside a chapel until you get something you want to trash, or you could just keep your Tournament set aside until you draw a Province
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I think Ways are a smart way (ha!) of addressing the problem that the more cards there are, the number of boring kingdoms you get necessarily goes up. By introducing another play effect, you can make some of these kingdoms interesting again.
I like that the Events shown here can all make a pretty big impact. I'm sure Toil can be used in some kind of pseudo-infinite loop. Commerce seems a bit strong in comparison to Windfall? But maybe those 2 fill different niches. And Populate is of course bonkers. Maybe no quite as out there as it feels though, to some extent it's like an immediately activated Pilgrimage.
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Way of the Turtle would be quite convenient for cards whose usefulness depends on what's in your hand. E.g., you could keep setting aside a chapel until you get something you want to trash, or you could just keep your Tournament set aside until you draw a Province
Smuggler + Way of the Turtle would be particularly interesting, for example. Just keep setting your Smuggler aside until your opponent gains something you want! That would make for a particularly interesting strategy, because if your opponent's doing that, then you know that as soon as you buy something they want, they're gonna use their Smuggler to get it
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They are all animals.
Disappointed that there won't be a Way of the Tank.
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Way of the Turtle would be quite convenient for cards whose usefulness depends on what's in your hand. E.g., you could keep setting aside a chapel until you get something you want to trash, or you could just keep your Tournament set aside until you draw a Province
Smuggler + Way of the Turtle would be particularly interesting, for example. Just keep setting your Smuggler aside until your opponent gains something you want! That would make for a particularly interesting strategy, because if your opponent's doing that, then you know that as soon as you buy something they want, they're gonna use their Smuggler to get it
Right, this almost makes Smuggler kind of silly in that sense, actually...your opponent will have to get something you want at some point even though they know you have that Smuggler set aside every turn. Each turn, your opponent has to decide is the card worth more for them or for you. Alternatively, your opponent could do a different strategy than you (if there is a good alternative) and try to never give your Smuggler value.
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I think Ways are a smart way (ha!) of addressing the problem that the more cards there are, the number of boring kingdoms you get necessarily goes up. By introducing another play effect, you can make some of these kingdoms interesting again.
I like that the Events shown here can all make a pretty big impact. I'm sure Toil can be used in some kind of pseudo-infinite loop. Commerce seems a bit strong in comparison to Windfall? But maybe those 2 fill different niches. And Populate is of course bonkers. Maybe no quite as out there as it feels though, to some extent it's like an immediately activated Pilgrimage.
It seems to me that Populate would be especially powerful if you have a Watchtower in your hand. Watchtower's reaction would A) allow you to immediately trash any Action cards you don't actually want, and the ones you do want, you could immediately topdeck - and since you get to choose what order you gain them, you can control what order they go onto your deck!
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Even if you don't want all cards from Populate, it has some extreme potential synergies (don't know how many of these will actually be good in a given game, though): gardens, vineyards, and philosopher's stone come to mind. Like mxdata said, watchtower in hand is actually really good, too.
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I like that the Events shown here can all make a pretty big impact. I'm sure Toil can be used in some kind of pseudo-infinite loop.
Setup: enough bridges to reduce cost by 5, have $2, Throne Room, Market in hand, Throne Room, Market in discard (no card in draw pile)
1) Buy Toil, play TR, play Market twice (draw TR, Market, get $2)
2) Buy TR, Market
Back to 1)
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I just played a game that included Populate, Way of the Ox, and Prince. I bought Populate, and so Prince was one of the cards I got. I chose to set aside Catapult with the Prince (that was pretty much the only decent cheap Action in that kingdom). Way of the Ox was very useful, because in turns where I wouldn't want to trash any of the cards in my starting hand, I could simply use Way of the Ox on the Catapult. There's a lot of other combinations with Prince that would also benefit from Way of the Ox
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Would Orchad be worth to invest in Populate ???
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Would Orchad be worth to invest in Populate ???
Even more so, Museum
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Prediction: One of the landscape cards that use the Exile mat will be a Way that simply says "Exile this", so you could use that Way to Exile Action cards you no longer need
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So, there's no limit to how many times you can use the Ways? E.g., if you have four Action cards in your hand, you can do them all as a Way? I can see why you'd recommend only one Way in a game. Are all the Ways named after animals?
No built in limit. But note that playing an Action card costs an Action (Way or no Way), so if you want to Turtle 4 Actions cards, you need to get 4 Actions somehow.
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So, there's no limit to how many times you can use the Ways? E.g., if you have four Action cards in your hand, you can do them all as a Way? I can see why you'd recommend only one Way in a game. Are all the Ways named after animals?
No built in limit. But note that playing an Action card costs an Action (Way or no Way), so if you want to Turtle 4 Actions cards, you need to get 4 Actions somehow.
and that's why we have Snowy Village
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So, there's no limit to how many times you can use the Ways? E.g., if you have four Action cards in your hand, you can do them all as a Way? I can see why you'd recommend only one Way in a game. Are all the Ways named after animals?
No built in limit. But note that playing an Action card costs an Action (Way or no Way), so if you want to Turtle 4 Actions cards, you need to get 4 Actions somehow.
True, for Turtle. Way of the Ox and Way of the Mole both come with +Actions though, and I don't doubt there'll be other Ways that include +Actions. Of course, not all of them would be very useful to use multiple times in a turn
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I thought it was kind of funny that in a Shelters game with Way of the Ox, the server gave me the option of playing Necropolis normally or as the Way of the Ox ... do I want +2 Actions or +2 Actions?
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Can you use a Way when playing a card affected by Enchantress?
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Can you use a Way when playing a card affected by Enchantress?
Yes, Donald X. answered on Discord: "Enchantress is a lot like a Way. The main thing is that you can beat Enchantress by doing the Way instead."
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Prediction: One of the landscape cards that use the Exile mat will be a Way that simply says "Exile this", so you could use that Way to Exile Action cards you no longer need
You can already do this with Turtle (minus the Exile interaction).
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Crazy that there are actually 20 different ways. That's so many.
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Prediction: One of the landscape cards that use the Exile mat will be a Way that simply says "Exile this", so you could use that Way to Exile Action cards you no longer need
You can already do this with Turtle (minus the Exile interaction).
But the whole point of the previous post was to get those cards out of your deck ... so ... the Exile Interaction is kinda necessary :)
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But there isn't really a disctinction: If you eternally Turtle a card turn for turn, it is a much 'out of your deck' as the cards on the Exile mat.
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Stunning Way of doing Expansion like this, this adds so much to the game. Thanks a million Donald!!
What about Tokens from Adventures interacting with Ways? Do I get e.g. Lost Arts benefit for choosing Way at certain Action?
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I just played a game that included Populate, Way of the Ox, and Prince. I bought Populate, and so Prince was one of the cards I got. I chose to set aside Catapult with the Prince (that was pretty much the only decent cheap Action in that kingdom). Way of the Ox was very useful, because in turns where I wouldn't want to trash any of the cards in my starting hand, I could simply use Way of the Ox on the Catapult. There's a lot of other combinations with Prince that would also benefit from Way of the Ox
That seems like it shouldn't work. Wouldn't Prince fail to set aside Catapult if Way of the Turtle already set it aside?
Is the expansion symbol in a different place for these landscapes? Is that so more of them can fit on two lines?
Also is the ironic toiling a reference to ironic tilling from Guilds? Yay for self-referential jokes!
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Oh, now I'm waiting for the Dominion version of this!
(https://www.kino.dk/sites/default/files/movie-posters/the-way-of-the-dragon-1972-onesheet-70x100c2a0cm-screen.jpg)
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it can be Turtles all the way down.
Now I'm wondering how long you've been sitting on that one...
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I just played a game that included Populate, Way of the Ox, and Prince. I bought Populate, and so Prince was one of the cards I got. I chose to set aside Catapult with the Prince (that was pretty much the only decent cheap Action in that kingdom). Way of the Ox was very useful, because in turns where I wouldn't want to trash any of the cards in my starting hand, I could simply use Way of the Ox on the Catapult. There's a lot of other combinations with Prince that would also benefit from Way of the Ox
That seems like it shouldn't work. Wouldn't Prince fail to set aside Catapult if Way of the Turtle already set it aside?
Is the expansion symbol in a different place for these landscapes? Is that so more of them can fit on two lines?
Also is the ironic toiling a reference to ironic tilling from Guilds? Yay for self-referential jokes!
He was using Way of the Ox not Way of the Turtle.
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Also is the ironic toiling a reference to ironic tilling from Guilds? Yay for self-referential jokes!
I came here to say the same thing.
I like the new ways to play Dominion that these landscapes introduce.
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Oh oops, it's too early to read well.
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What about Tokens from Adventures interacting with Ways? Do I get e.g. Lost Arts benefit for choosing Way at certain Action?
I'd say yes. So you could put +1 Card onto Ruins and Turtle them into Hirelings.
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I've just realised how awesome it would be to have a Watchtower in hand while Populating. (-8
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About tokens and Ways:
Formally, you get the effects of the tokens before you even decide if you want to use a Way or not. If you draw a card from the +1 Card token, you might even reconsider if to (not) use a Way.
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Ways Predictions:
Way of the Moat Horse: +2 cards
Way of the Raptor: Trash a card from your hand
Way of the Silver: +2 Coins
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Ways work any time you play an Action card.
That is interesting! I've been thinking about Crown and the Ways (which maybe will be answered and exemplified in the rule book, making this very moot), but meanwhile I want to check that I got it right.
Since it works any time you play an Action card it should be possible to use the Way even when you play Crowns during your Buy phase.
If you Turtle a Crown it will be played at the start of your next turn. Then you don't have a chance to declare that you want your Action phase to end before you play it (which you might want). I don't know if there is an official ruling, but a rule clarification in the entry for Prince (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Prince) in the Wiki says that the "start of your turn is considered part of your Action phase".
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when you play an Action-that-has-an-Adventures-Token-on-it as a Way, you still get the bonus first?
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Way of the Raven: http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Scout (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Scout)
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It’s going to be challenging to not say “This is the way” when playing a Bounty Hunter.
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Way of the Turtle would be quite convenient for cards whose usefulness depends on what's in your hand. E.g., you could keep setting aside a chapel until you get something you want to trash, or you could just keep your Tournament set aside until you draw a Province
Worth noting that a Turtle'd Tournament is a terminal action, though.
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Turtle seems like the ideal megaturn enabler. Just turtle your bridges until you have enough in play.
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I think I have this right?
Example: +Card token on Moat pile, Way of the Ox on board.
I play a Moat as my last action for some reason.
Token first gives me +1 Card, before I do anything. I draw a Smithy.
Now I choose whether to use Moat's effect or Way of the Ox's effect. I want to play the Smithy more than the Moat, and I'd like to not draw anything dead, so I can choose Way of the Ox, even though I already drew a card from the token.
So in this case, Moat can either be a vanilla Village (+1 Card, +2 Actions) or a Smithy (+1 Card, +2 Cards), but I get to choose which one I like best after I draw one card from the token. It seems like Pathfinding, while already very powerful, is even more powerful when combined with Ways.
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Even if you don't want all cards from Populate, it has some extreme potential synergies (don't know how many of these will actually be good in a given game, though): gardens, vineyards, and philosopher's stone come to mind. Like mxdata said, watchtower in hand is actually really good, too.
Buy Populate, then buy Commerce. Enjoy your 10 Golds (that you probably don't want in a deck that can make (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/c/cc/Coin10.png/16px-Coin10.png) and just got 10 new action cards).
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Even if you don't want all cards from Populate, it has some extreme potential synergies (don't know how many of these will actually be good in a given game, though): gardens, vineyards, and philosopher's stone come to mind. Like mxdata said, watchtower in hand is actually really good, too.
Buy Populate, then buy Commerce. Enjoy your 10 Golds (that you probably don't want in a deck that can make (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/c/cc/Coin10.png/16px-Coin10.png) and just got 10 new action cards).
Twist: The game also has Tomb, and you have a Watchtower in hand. Good-bye 10 Gold! Hello 10 VP!
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That is interesting! I've been thinking about Crown and the Ways (which maybe will be answered and exemplified in the rule book, making this very moot), but meanwhile I want to check that I got it right.
Since it works any time you play an Action card it should be possible to use the Way even when you play Crowns during your Buy phase.
Right, same for Werewolf.
If you Turtle a Crown it will be played at the start of your next turn. Then you don't have a chance to declare that you want your Action phase to end before you play it (which you might want). I don't know if there is an official ruling, but a rule clarification in the entry for Prince (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Prince) in the Wiki says that the "start of your turn is considered part of your Action phase".
Also correct. Your turtled Crown will inevitably by played during an Action phase, so act like a Throne Room.
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I think I have this right?
Example: +Card token on Moat pile, Way of the Ox on board.
I play a Moat as my last action for some reason.
Token first gives me +1 Card, before I do anything. I draw a Smithy.
Now I choose whether to use Moat's effect or Way of the Ox's effect. I want to play the Smithy more than the Moat, and I'd like to not draw anything dead, so I can choose Way of the Ox, even though I already drew a card from the token.
So in this case, Moat can either be a vanilla Village (+1 Card, +2 Actions) or a Smithy (+1 Card, +2 Cards), but I get to choose which one I like best after I draw one card from the token. It seems like Pathfinding, while already very powerful, is even more powerful when combined with Ways.
All correct. With Pathfinding you get even more info about your hand before you make the decision for a Way or not.
Note that opponnts reacting to your attacks with Moats or similar effects also happens before the Way decision. So if your Coven is Moated, Turtle it aways for next turn if you don't need the +1 Action and +$2 right now.
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I was also wondering about timing and shape-shifting. So Ingix confirmed that the timing is after before-play abilities (Adventures tokens, Reactions, Urchin, Kiln). This makes it sound a lot like Enchantress, that you resolve the Way instead of the play ability, and it's not shape-shifting. This means:
* I play a card with a Way, then I play Scepter and choose to replay the card. I can now choose to resolve it normally or with a Way.
* With Capitalism, an Action card with +$ is still a Treasure even if played with a Way. And an Action card without +$ is not a Treasure even if played with a Way that has +$.
Is this correct?
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Can you use a Way when playing a card affected by Enchantress?
Yes, Donald X. answered on Discord: "Enchantress is a lot like a Way. The main thing is that you can beat Enchantress by doing the Way instead."
So this means that it has the same timing as Enchantress? You can choose to resolve Enchantress first and then the Way, meaning that the Way "wins". Or you can choose to do it the other way around, but the result would be the same as not choosing the Way at all.
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Way of the Turtle would be quite convenient for cards whose usefulness depends on what's in your hand. E.g., you could keep setting aside a chapel until you get something you want to trash, or you could just keep your Tournament set aside until you draw a Province
Worth noting that a Turtle'd Tournament is a terminal action, though.
Only when you first Turtle it, but that applies to all Actions
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ouKSsBi149g
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I was also wondering about timing and shape-shifting. So Ingix confirmed that the timing is after before-play abilities (Adventures tokens, Reactions, Urchin, Kiln). This makes it sound a lot like Enchantress, that you resolve the Way instead of the play ability, and it's not shape-shifting. This means:
* I play a card with a Way, then I play Scepter and choose to replay the card. I can now choose to resolve it normally or with a Way.
* With Capitalism, an Action card with +$ is still a Treasure even if played with a Way. And an Action card without +$ is not a Treasure even if played with a Way that has +$.
Is this correct?
I think so. Capitalism references the text, not the effect, and the text on the card isn't changed. So, if you have Capitalism and a Way, you should be able to play a card that has +coin in the text during your buy phase, but then play it as the Way, even a Way that doesn't have any +coins
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Way of the Raven: http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Scout (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Scout)
Such a shame that Scout got lost, because I predict all 20 Ways will have excellent combos with that versatile guy. Just look at the obvious benefits so far:
Way of the Ox: Your Scout is now a Village.
Way of the Mole: You can now discard all the Victory cards Scout drew for you, and draw 3 new things.
Way of the Turtle: Allows you to set your Scouts aside for the rest of the game. A Scout is always ready.
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Livery + Commerce is a neat interaction. Buy anything with Livery in play $4 or more, you automatically gain two differently named cards (the card you bought + Horse). Then buy Commerce, get two golds + two Horses!
It would get even more insane with Haggler and Border Village. Buy a Border Village with Haggler and Livery in play. Border Village gives you another card <$6 and Haggler also gives you another card less than $6, if those were both different cards, that's four differently-named cards including the Horses themselves (potentially up to 4!). Then Commerce gives you 4 Golds + 4 Horses. You could potentially get 8 Horses that way!
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Way of the Raven: http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Scout (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Scout)
Such a shame that Scout got lost, because it I predict all 20 Ways will have excellent combos with that versatile guy. Just look at the obvious benefits so far:
Way of the Ox: Your Scout is now a Village.
Way of the Mole: You can now discard all the Victory cards Scout drew for you, and draw 3 new things.
Way of the Turtle: Allows you to set a Scout aside for the rest of the game. A Scout is always ready.
Only do this if you've won the scout split, for otherwise you're wasting perfectly good scouts. IMHO one should only use "way" on weak cards, like outpost.
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More seriously, the fact that "way" cards still give you "in play" effects seem like a huge boost to certain cards. For example, mole + highway, merchant guild, or bridge troll is an easy 2-card combo. Herbalist is looking a lot better. Treasure hunter's silver gain is now optional. Goons has more options when stacked.
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I was also wondering about timing and shape-shifting. So Ingix confirmed that the timing is after before-play abilities (Adventures tokens, Reactions, Urchin, Kiln). This makes it sound a lot like Enchantress, that you resolve the Way instead of the play ability, and it's not shape-shifting. This means:
* I play a card with a Way, then I play Scepter and choose to replay the card. I can now choose to resolve it normally or with a Way.
* With Capitalism, an Action card with +$ is still a Treasure even if played with a Way. And an Action card without +$ is not a Treasure even if played with a Way that has +$.
Is this correct?
Donald specifically said that below-the-line stuff still works normally, which confirms that there's no shape-shifting going on. Considering that he just went out of his way to Errata-away existing shapeshifting stuff, I doubt he'd suddenly re-introduce that in a new set!
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So I'm wondering if there will be a Way that's simply +1 card, +1 action. On one hand, it's almost obvious. On he other hand, it's boring.
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Donald specifically said that below-the-line stuff still works normally, which confirms that there's no shape-shifting going on. Considering that he just went out of his way to Errata-away existing shapeshifting stuff, I doubt he'd suddenly re-introduce that in a new set!
No, the on-play ability could be replaced on the card even though the below-line ability isn't. This came up for Enchantress too. But of course your second point is excellent, and based on Ingix' posts here I'm 95% sure of this anyway. It's just that I can't state it as fact in my document without confirmation from Donald. Some times my assumptions have turned out wrong.
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So I'm wondering if there will be a Way that's simply +1 card, +1 action. On one hand, it's almost obvious. On he other hand, it's boring.
I don't know if we're talking about the leaked way names? There's one that I would think would be that.
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Capitalism plus Way of the Turtle seems a fun combo. Some Capitalism Treasures would still rather be played in your Action phase - now you can save them for next turn.
Also, Toil and Way of the Turtle. Basically, Way of the Turtle with cards that let you play Actions during your Buy phase.
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Play 3 Liveries. Buy Populate in a game where all the Kingdom cards are actions >$3. Empty out the Horse pile!
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Even if you don't want all cards from Populate, it has some extreme potential synergies (don't know how many of these will actually be good in a given game, though): gardens, vineyards, and philosopher's stone come to mind. Like mxdata said, watchtower in hand is actually really good, too.
It also makes it much easier to grab cards you need to increase the value of your Fairgrounds late in the game.
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So I'm wondering if there will be a Way that's simply +1 card, +1 action. On one hand, it's almost obvious. On he other hand, it's boring.
I don't know if we're talking about the leaked way names? There's one that I would think would be that.
You mean Way of the Pig?
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So I'm wondering if there will be a Way that's simply +1 card, +1 action. On one hand, it's almost obvious. On he other hand, it's boring.
I don't know if we're talking about the leaked way names? There's one that I would think would be that.
I didn't know there were leaked names. Now I'm just trying to think of what sort of animal name would lead one to think of that particular effect.
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So I'm wondering if there will be a Way that's simply +1 card, +1 action. On one hand, it's almost obvious. On he other hand, it's boring.
I don't know if we're talking about the leaked way names? There's one that I would think would be that.
You mean Way of the Pig?
Ah, yeah, that would make sense.
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In a Shelters game, Way of the Mole could potentially allow you to play a card on turn 2 that you gained on turn 1, if your Necropolis is drawn on turn 2. Buy a card on turn 1. Turn 2, play Necropolis with Way of the Mole. Discard your hand and draw 3 cards. Since this triggers a reshuffle, you have a 30% chance of drawing the card you bought on turn 1. Especially useful in 5/2 openings, where you'd probably want to use Way of the Mole anyways, unless there's a good $2 card. Even if you don't draw what you'd bought, you still have a good chance of getting 3 coppers with your draw
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So I'm wondering if there will be a Way that's simply +1 card, +1 action. On one hand, it's almost obvious. On he other hand, it's boring.
I don't know if we're talking about the leaked way names? There's one that I would think would be that.
I'd been wondering about that. Someone had posted the names on the Dominion wiki (and they're actually still there, just commented out, in the Menagerie navbox template) and I wondered where those names were coming from
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(https://dl.dropbox.com/s/qea4ajy5446wxv9/horse.png)
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Way of the Ox + Royal Carriage is pretty good. Play something that draws with no remaining actions and you ended up drawing some action cards dead? Just use Royal Carriage to replay it, but this time choose Way of the Ox and now you've got two actions!
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What about Tokens from Adventures interacting with Ways? Do I get e.g. Lost Arts benefit for choosing Way at certain Action?
Yes. So for example with Turtle, you could Turtle the same card every turn, just to get the +1 Action from the token.
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Is the expansion symbol in a different place for these landscapes? Is that so more of them can fit on two lines?
Also is the ironic toiling a reference to ironic tilling from Guilds? Yay for self-referential jokes!
The expansion symbol was moved to fit text better, yes.
That was a reference to the Guilds paragraph, yes.
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If you Turtle a Crown it will be played at the start of your next turn. Then you don't have a chance to declare that you want your Action phase to end before you play it (which you might want). I don't know if there is an official ruling, but a rule clarification in the entry for Prince (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Prince) in the Wiki says that the "start of your turn is considered part of your Action phase".
It's your Action phase then, yes, so Crown is stuck playing an Action.
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* I play a card with a Way, then I play Scepter and choose to replay the card. I can now choose to resolve it normally or with a Way.
Yes.
* With Capitalism, an Action card with +$ is still a Treasure even if played with a Way. And an Action card without +$ is not a Treasure even if played with a Way that has +$.
Yes, Capitalism doesn't care that you didn't follow the instructions, it just looks at the text box.
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So this means that it has the same timing as Enchantress? You can choose to resolve Enchantress first and then the Way, meaning that the Way "wins". Or you can choose to do it the other way around, but the result would be the same as not choosing the Way at all.
It's the same timing as Enchantress; obv. you will choose to have the Way "win."
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This has probably been answered elsewhere, but will the previewed cards remain playable online up until the expansion is released or will they get removed for a brief period of time in the interim, such as next week?
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This has probably been answered elsewhere, but will the previewed cards remain playable online up until the expansion is released or will they get removed for a brief period of time in the interim, such as next week?
ShuffleIt forums say previews are available to play Monday 2nd March to Sunday 8th.
http://forum.shuffleit.nl/index.php?topic=4029.msg17264#msg17264
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As a timmy player fan of Cornucopia, Populate may be my new favourite card-shaped thing in all Dominion.
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I've been neglecting the forums lately and didn't realize a new set had been announced, let alone that there were preview cards available. So apologies for my lateness, it's time for... Combos With Scout! (RIP) Let's look at how amazingly these cards would have combo'd with everybody's favorite Dominion: Intrigue powerhouse, which was removed from the game for being too OP.
Way of the Ox, Mole, Turtle: Yikes, this is WEAK. Why would you play Scout as something other than Scout? Scout-as-village is only good if you have terminals. But in Scout games, you'll be racing Scouts, so most of your other cards will be Scouts. And Scout is NON-terminal, which is one reason it's so strong. Not seeing it. Too bad.
Toil: Pretty strong. Step 1) Buy Green cards. Step 2) Buy Toil. Step 3) Use Toil to play an extra Scout. Step 4) Scoop up the Green cards you just bought. You can have them in your hand same turn, actually. This is probably going to impact those "Buy all the Provinces on Turn 1" strats.
Commerce: You're always going to be gaining at least one Scout, so if you can spare an additional $5 you can use this to gain a Gold. I guess that saves you $1, since Gold costs $6? Probably a narrow play. Competes at the same price point as Duchy, which is always available and combo-able with Scout.
Populate: Dream on. By the time you realistically have $10, the Scout pile will probably be empty. You'll wonder why you bothered to build up your economy so much, while your opponent is profitably manipulating the next few cards in his or her deck over and over again.
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Even if you don't want all cards from Populate, it has some extreme potential synergies (don't know how many of these will actually be good in a given game, though): gardens, vineyards, and philosopher's stone come to mind. Like mxdata said, watchtower in hand is actually really good, too.
Buy Populate, then buy Commerce. Enjoy your 10 Golds (that you probably don't want in a deck that can make (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/c/cc/Coin10.png/16px-Coin10.png) and just got 10 new action cards).
Twist: The game also has Tomb, and you have a Watchtower in hand. Good-bye 10 Gold! Hello 10 VP!
When you trash something with Watchtower, you still gained it first. So you could Populate, trash all 10 actions, then Commerce and trash all 10 golds. Goodbye 10 actions AND 10 Gold! Hello 20 VP!
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Crazy that there are actually 20 different ways. That's so many.
And yet there are fifty ways to leave your lover.
...
There's a few more I need to get out of my system, so let's go.
"How do I love Dominion? Let me count the Ways ... ok, there's twenty."
"Why do you keep Turtling that card every turn?" "Because it's the only Way!"
"Hey Wayne, Garth, Bill and Ted. What setup do we want?" "Way!" "No way, man!"
"I can't actually see all the card-shaped things at the other end of the table, but it's all right - I know the Way."
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Crazy that there are actually 20 different ways. That's so many.
And yet there are fifty ways to leave your lover.
...
There's a few more I need to get out of my system, so let's go.
"How do I love Dominion? Let me count the Ways ... ok, there's twenty."
"Why do you keep Turtling that card every turn?" "Because it's the only Way!"
"Hey Wayne, Garth, Bill and Ted. What setup do we want?" "Way!" "No way, man!"
"I can't actually see all the card-shaped things at the other end of the table, but it's all right - I know the Way."
You went Way overboard with these.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sp67K_Sqd-8
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Even if you don't want all cards from Populate, it has some extreme potential synergies (don't know how many of these will actually be good in a given game, though): gardens, vineyards, and philosopher's stone come to mind. Like mxdata said, watchtower in hand is actually really good, too.
Buy Populate, then buy Commerce. Enjoy your 10 Golds (that you probably don't want in a deck that can make (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/c/cc/Coin10.png/16px-Coin10.png) and just got 10 new action cards).
Twist: The game also has Tomb, and you have a Watchtower in hand. Good-bye 10 Gold! Hello 10 VP!
When you trash something with Watchtower, you still gained it first. So you could Populate, trash all 10 actions, then Commerce and trash all 10 golds. Goodbye 10 actions AND 10 Gold! Hello 20 VP!
Except that that would require Tomb + Commerce + Populate, three different landscape cards
But Watchtower + Treasure cards adding up to $10 with Tomb + Populate could work as a weird kind of Golden Deck. Each turn buy Populate and trash them all for 10 VP/turn!
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Even if you don't want all cards from Populate, it has some extreme potential synergies (don't know how many of these will actually be good in a given game, though): gardens, vineyards, and philosopher's stone come to mind. Like mxdata said, watchtower in hand is actually really good, too.
Buy Populate, then buy Commerce. Enjoy your 10 Golds (that you probably don't want in a deck that can make (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/c/cc/Coin10.png/16px-Coin10.png) and just got 10 new action cards).
Twist: The game also has Tomb, and you have a Watchtower in hand. Good-bye 10 Gold! Hello 10 VP!
When you trash something with Watchtower, you still gained it first. So you could Populate, trash all 10 actions, then Commerce and trash all 10 golds. Goodbye 10 actions AND 10 Gold! Hello 20 VP!
Except that that would require Tomb + Commerce + Populate, three different landscape cards
That's technically not a rule, just a recommendation by Donald.
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I think I have this right?
Example: +Card token on Moat pile, Way of the Ox on board.
I play a Moat as my last action for some reason.
Token first gives me +1 Card, before I do anything. I draw a Smithy.
Now I choose whether to use Moat's effect or Way of the Ox's effect. I want to play the Smithy more than the Moat, and I'd like to not draw anything dead, so I can choose Way of the Ox, even though I already drew a card from the token.
So in this case, Moat can either be a vanilla Village (+1 Card, +2 Actions) or a Smithy (+1 Card, +2 Cards), but I get to choose which one I like best after I draw one card from the token. It seems like Pathfinding, while already very powerful, is even more powerful when combined with Ways.
All correct. With Pathfinding you get even more info about your hand before you make the decision for a Way or not.
Note that opponnts reacting to your attacks with Moats or similar effects also happens before the Way decision. So if your Coven is Moated, Turtle it aways for next turn if you don't need the +1 Action and +$2 right now.
Sure, but then your opponent could just Turtle their Moat away too. Moat effectively becomes a Champion (well, the "when another player plays an Attack card, it doesn't affect you" part) if you just Turtle it every turn.
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I've had 3 games with Populate, two of them had Fairgrounds, the other gardens. I thought for a sec the system was set up for them to appear together more often! Love this game, love the cards. Lotsa fun. Either it's the removed pressure of not playing rated, or it's that Populate is the most fun card in all of Dominion.
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I think I have this right?
Example: +Card token on Moat pile, Way of the Ox on board.
I play a Moat as my last action for some reason.
Token first gives me +1 Card, before I do anything. I draw a Smithy.
Now I choose whether to use Moat's effect or Way of the Ox's effect. I want to play the Smithy more than the Moat, and I'd like to not draw anything dead, so I can choose Way of the Ox, even though I already drew a card from the token.
So in this case, Moat can either be a vanilla Village (+1 Card, +2 Actions) or a Smithy (+1 Card, +2 Cards), but I get to choose which one I like best after I draw one card from the token. It seems like Pathfinding, while already very powerful, is even more powerful when combined with Ways.
All correct. With Pathfinding you get even more info about your hand before you make the decision for a Way or not.
Note that opponnts reacting to your attacks with Moats or similar effects also happens before the Way decision. So if your Coven is Moated, Turtle it aways for next turn if you don't need the +1 Action and +$2 right now.
Sure, but then your opponent could just Turtle their Moat away too. Moat effectively becomes a Champion (well, the "when another player plays an Attack card, it doesn't affect you" part) if you just Turtle it every turn.
That wouldn't work, though. You have to reveal moat from your hand to block an attack. If you've set it aside with Turtle, it can't block attacks
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I think I have this right?
Example: +Card token on Moat pile, Way of the Ox on board.
I play a Moat as my last action for some reason.
Token first gives me +1 Card, before I do anything. I draw a Smithy.
Now I choose whether to use Moat's effect or Way of the Ox's effect. I want to play the Smithy more than the Moat, and I'd like to not draw anything dead, so I can choose Way of the Ox, even though I already drew a card from the token.
So in this case, Moat can either be a vanilla Village (+1 Card, +2 Actions) or a Smithy (+1 Card, +2 Cards), but I get to choose which one I like best after I draw one card from the token. It seems like Pathfinding, while already very powerful, is even more powerful when combined with Ways.
All correct. With Pathfinding you get even more info about your hand before you make the decision for a Way or not.
Note that opponnts reacting to your attacks with Moats or similar effects also happens before the Way decision. So if your Coven is Moated, Turtle it aways for next turn if you don't need the +1 Action and +$2 right now.
Sure, but then your opponent could just Turtle their Moat away too. Moat effectively becomes a Champion (well, the "when another player plays an Attack card, it doesn't affect you" part) if you just Turtle it every turn.
That wouldn't work, though. You have to reveal moat from your hand to block an attack. If you've set it aside with Turtle, it can't block attacks
You're absolutely right, of course. I didn't realize it doesn't come back into your hand until next turn.
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Technically, it doesn't go back to your hand at all. You just play it from set-aside.
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Even if you don't want all cards from Populate, it has some extreme potential synergies (don't know how many of these will actually be good in a given game, though): gardens, vineyards, and philosopher's stone come to mind. Like mxdata said, watchtower in hand is actually really good, too.
Buy Populate, then buy Commerce. Enjoy your 10 Golds (that you probably don't want in a deck that can make (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/c/cc/Coin10.png/16px-Coin10.png) and just got 10 new action cards).
Twist: The game also has Tomb, and you have a Watchtower in hand. Good-bye 10 Gold! Hello 10 VP!
When you trash something with Watchtower, you still gained it first. So you could Populate, trash all 10 actions, then Commerce and trash all 10 golds. Goodbye 10 actions AND 10 Gold! Hello 20 VP!
Except that that would require Tomb + Commerce + Populate, three different landscape cards
That's technically not a rule, just a recommendation by Donald.
I want to play a game with every Way, every Project, every Event, and every Landmark.
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I want to play a game with every Way, every Project, every Event, and every Landmark.
I suspect Wall would ruin that experience for a lot of people.
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I want to play a game with every Way, every Project, every Event, and every Landmark.
I suspect Wall would ruin that experience for a lot of people.
Yeah. No one likes Wall.
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I want to play a game with every Way, every Project, every Event, and every Landmark.
Use them instead of Kingdom cards. That would get interesting.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ouKSsBi149g
This is what I thought of immediately. Glad there's another Phineas and Ferb fan out there
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Nobles = Smithy + Way of the Ox + Obelisk
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Nobles + Ferry = Smithy + Way of the Ox + Obelisk
Fixed.
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Even if you don't want all cards from Populate, it has some extreme potential synergies (don't know how many of these will actually be good in a given game, though): gardens, vineyards, and philosopher's stone come to mind. Like mxdata said, watchtower in hand is actually really good, too.
Buy Populate, then buy Commerce. Enjoy your 10 Golds (that you probably don't want in a deck that can make (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/c/cc/Coin10.png/16px-Coin10.png) and just got 10 new action cards).
Twist: The game also has Tomb, and you have a Watchtower in hand. Good-bye 10 Gold! Hello 10 VP!
When you trash something with Watchtower, you still gained it first. So you could Populate, trash all 10 actions, then Commerce and trash all 10 golds. Goodbye 10 actions AND 10 Gold! Hello 20 VP!
Except that that would require Tomb + Commerce + Populate, three different landscape cards
That's technically not a rule, just a recommendation by Donald.
I want to play a game with every Way, every Project, every Event, and every Landmark.
That game would be chaos coming from every which Way.
The time when Way puns stop being funny is very far a-Way.
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Obelisk = Nobles + Ferry - Smithy - Way of the Ox
Interesting.
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Even if you don't want all cards from Populate, it has some extreme potential synergies (don't know how many of these will actually be good in a given game, though): gardens, vineyards, and philosopher's stone come to mind. Like mxdata said, watchtower in hand is actually really good, too.
Buy Populate, then buy Commerce. Enjoy your 10 Golds (that you probably don't want in a deck that can make (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/c/cc/Coin10.png/16px-Coin10.png) and just got 10 new action cards).
Twist: The game also has Tomb, and you have a Watchtower in hand. Good-bye 10 Gold! Hello 10 VP!
When you trash something with Watchtower, you still gained it first. So you could Populate, trash all 10 actions, then Commerce and trash all 10 golds. Goodbye 10 actions AND 10 Gold! Hello 20 VP!
Except that that would require Tomb + Commerce + Populate, three different landscape cards
That's technically not a rule, just a recommendation by Donald.
I want to play a game with every Way, every Project, every Event, and every Landmark.
That game would be chaos coming from every which Way.
The time when Way puns stop being funny is very far a-Way.
One of the great things about the Wiki and my Chrome extension is that in addition to showing you cards; they also show you the Way.
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Even if you don't want all cards from Populate, it has some extreme potential synergies (don't know how many of these will actually be good in a given game, though): gardens, vineyards, and philosopher's stone come to mind. Like mxdata said, watchtower in hand is actually really good, too.
Buy Populate, then buy Commerce. Enjoy your 10 Golds (that you probably don't want in a deck that can make (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/c/cc/Coin10.png/16px-Coin10.png) and just got 10 new action cards).
Twist: The game also has Tomb, and you have a Watchtower in hand. Good-bye 10 Gold! Hello 10 VP!
When you trash something with Watchtower, you still gained it first. So you could Populate, trash all 10 actions, then Commerce and trash all 10 golds. Goodbye 10 actions AND 10 Gold! Hello 20 VP!
Except that that would require Tomb + Commerce + Populate, three different landscape cards
That's technically not a rule, just a recommendation by Donald.
I want to play a game with every Way
You only need the
Way of the Puns
Come up with a pun for any way, then follow its instructions.
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Way of the turtle has some interesting combos.
Lining up your treasure maps is now gauranteed. Also, this is another way for you to gain an imp from your tormentor and not end your action phase.
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Obelisk = Nobles + Ferry - Smithy - Way of the Ox
Interesting.
It's true! Obelisk is like a card worth 2 VP each costing $6 that gives either +2 Actions or +3 Cards, minus $2 on the cost, minus the +3 Cards and the being a card and the cost of $4, minus the +2 Actions; so it's just like "worth 2 VP each"
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Even if you don't want all cards from Populate, it has some extreme potential synergies (don't know how many of these will actually be good in a given game, though): gardens, vineyards, and philosopher's stone come to mind. Like mxdata said, watchtower in hand is actually really good, too.
Buy Populate, then buy Commerce. Enjoy your 10 Golds (that you probably don't want in a deck that can make (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/c/cc/Coin10.png/16px-Coin10.png) and just got 10 new action cards).
Twist: The game also has Tomb, and you have a Watchtower in hand. Good-bye 10 Gold! Hello 10 VP!
When you trash something with Watchtower, you still gained it first. So you could Populate, trash all 10 actions, then Commerce and trash all 10 golds. Goodbye 10 actions AND 10 Gold! Hello 20 VP!
Except that that would require Tomb + Commerce + Populate, three different landscape cards
That's technically not a rule, just a recommendation by Donald.
I want to play a game with every Way, every Project, every Event, and every Landmark.
That game would be chaos coming from every which Way.
The time when Way puns stop being funny is very far a-Way.
One of the great things about the Wiki and my Chrome extension is that in addition to showing you cards; they also show you the Way.
That shameless self-punotion.
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Btw, I've returned to this forum for the previews but stayed here for the puns (and weird card algebra. Is that a thing now?)
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Way of the turtle has some interesting combos.
Lining up your treasure maps is now gauranteed. Also, this is another way for you to gain an imp from your tormentor and not end your action phase.
Not quite guaranteed. If you Turtle one map away, you can only use it if you draw the second map with your initial 5-card hand, since the Turtled card can only be used at the start of your turn. If you draw the second map during your turn (unless, of course, it's with a start-of-turn draw like a Den of Sin or a Turtled draw that you resolved first), you're out of luck. And note that it wouldn't work to Turtle the second map either, because it says to trash a second map from your hand, and cards that are set aside are not in your hand
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Way of the turtle has some interesting combos.
Lining up your treasure maps is now gauranteed. Also, this is another way for you to gain an imp from your tormentor and not end your action phase.
Not quite guaranteed. If you Turtle one map away, you can only use it if you draw the second map with your initial 5-card hand, since the Turtled card can only be used at the start of your turn. If you draw the second map during your turn (unless, of course, it's with a start-of-turn draw like a Den of Sin or a Turtled draw that you resolved first), you're out of luck. And note that it wouldn't work to Turtle the second map either, because it says to trash a second map from your hand, and cards that are set aside are not in your hand
Although .... if you had a Turtled Treasure Map and a Turtled Hunting Grounds, and the second Treasure Map was in your hand at the start of your turn, you could choose to resolve the Treasure Map first, gaining 4 golds on to your deck, and then immediately drawing all four of them with your Hunting Grounds!
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Where did the name 'Way' come from? Did it start out that way?
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Way of the turtle has some interesting combos.
Lining up your treasure maps is now gauranteed. Also, this is another way for you to gain an imp from your tormentor and not end your action phase.
Not quite guaranteed. If you Turtle one map away, you can only use it if you draw the second map with your initial 5-card hand, since the Turtled card can only be used at the start of your turn. If you draw the second map during your turn (unless, of course, it's with a start-of-turn draw like a Den of Sin or a Turtled draw that you resolved first), you're out of luck. And note that it wouldn't work to Turtle the second map either, because it says to trash a second map from your hand, and cards that are set aside are not in your hand
No, if you didn't have your second treasure map in your initial 5-card hand, you would just Turtle the first Treasure Map again. And repeat until it does line up. Yes, if you draw the second Treasure Map at some point during your turn, you've missed it for that shuffle. But if you are drawing a lot each turn anyway; then you wouldn't use Turtle on Treasure Map to start with.
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Way of the turtle has some interesting combos.
Lining up your treasure maps is now gauranteed. Also, this is another way for you to gain an imp from your tormentor and not end your action phase.
Not quite guaranteed. If you Turtle one map away, you can only use it if you draw the second map with your initial 5-card hand, since the Turtled card can only be used at the start of your turn. If you draw the second map during your turn (unless, of course, it's with a start-of-turn draw like a Den of Sin or a Turtled draw that you resolved first), you're out of luck. And note that it wouldn't work to Turtle the second map either, because it says to trash a second map from your hand, and cards that are set aside are not in your hand
No, if you didn't have your second treasure map in your initial 5-card hand, you would just Turtle the first Treasure Map again. And repeat until it does line up. Yes, if you draw the second Treasure Map at some point during your turn, you've missed it for that shuffle. But if you are drawing a lot each turn anyway; then you wouldn't use Turtle on Treasure Map to start with.
Okay, that's a good point. You'd almost certainly hit it after a couple of reshuffles. Still, it's not completely guaranteed, since you could still miss it on each reshuffle
.... Although I just realized that Cobbler and a Turtled Treasure Map would be an absolute guarantee, since Cobbler gains a card costing up to $4 (which Treasure Map is) to your hand at the start of your turn! Since you get to choose the order of start-of-turn effects, choose Cobbler first, gain that second Treasure Map, then play your Turtled Map!
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Where did the name 'Way' come from? Did it start out that way?
Yes. The Ways never had any other theme.
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Way of the Turtle + Innovation - buy a card, play it with Innovation, and choose the Way to play it at the start of your next turn. Like a Summons that works for any Action card! Or actually even better, since you can keep Turtling it as long as you need to. That could potentially set up some massive megaturns!
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After Animal Fair, Ways are another way to ruin Ruins.
BTW, Chapel, Moneylender and Treasure Map are even much better with Ways.
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Looking at the list of Way names*, I'm wondering whether it's the Goat or the Rat that trashes.
(* http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?title=Menagerie_(expansion)&diff=47454&oldid=47447)
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I wonder if there'll be any promotional Ways at some point. So far there's only been one promotional landscape card, but it seems like a promotional Way could be a cool idea
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Looking at the list of Way names*, I'm wondering whether it's the Goat or the Rat that trashes.
(* http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?title=Menagerie_(expansion)&diff=47454&oldid=47447)
Could be both, doing it different ways, like "+$1 Trash a card from your hand" for Goat and "+1 Card +1 Action Trash a card from your hand" for Rats, both based on the cards with those names
I would predict that Way of the Squirrel has some way of setting a card from your hand aside for the next turn (a different card, not itself), fitting the theme of a squirrel storing nuts away for the future. Or maybe it turns a card into a duration card. That would be cool, like "This turn, do nothing. At the start of your next turn, follow the directions on this card"
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Can you play Sheepdog as a Way during your buy phase when you gain?
I didn't get the option to play it as Way of the Mole.
Game #36702705 turn 17
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Looking at the list of Way names*, I'm wondering whether it's the Goat or the Rat that trashes.
(* http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?title=Menagerie_(expansion)&diff=47454&oldid=47447)
I’m guessing goat. I think rat would be something like «Gain a copy of this».
Also, my guess is that the goat has the «an unused action» text. Maybe something like «-1 action. If you still have an unused action, trash a card». I’m guessing that a straight up «Trash a card» would be too game-changing.
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I would predict that Way of the Squirrel has some way of setting a card from your hand aside for the next turn (a different card, not itself), fitting the theme of a squirrel storing nuts away for the future. Or maybe it turns a card into a duration card. That would be cool, like "This turn, do nothing. At the start of your next turn, follow the directions on this card"
Isn't that one already the Way of the Turtle?
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I would predict that Way of the Squirrel has some way of setting a card from your hand aside for the next turn (a different card, not itself), fitting the theme of a squirrel storing nuts away for the future. Or maybe it turns a card into a duration card. That would be cool, like "This turn, do nothing. At the start of your next turn, follow the directions on this card"
Isn't that one already the Way of the Turtle?
No, Way of the Turtle sets itself aside, this would be setting another card aside
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Looking at the list of Way names*, I'm wondering whether it's the Goat or the Rat that trashes.
(* http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?title=Menagerie_(expansion)&diff=47454&oldid=47447)
I’m guessing goat. I think rat would be something like «Gain a copy of this».
Also, my guess is that the goat has the «an unused action» text. Maybe something like «-1 action. If you still have an unused action, trash a card». I’m guessing that a straight up «Trash a card» would be too game-changing.
"Gain a copy of this" would be way too powerful though, unless it had something like "If this card costs $4 or less, gain a copy of it". Otherwise, you could buy one copy of an expensive action, and then make multiple copies of it
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Looking at the list of Way names*, I'm wondering whether it's the Goat or the Rat that trashes.
(* http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?title=Menagerie_(expansion)&diff=47454&oldid=47447)
I’m guessing goat. I think rat would be something like «Gain a copy of this».
Also, my guess is that the goat has the «an unused action» text. Maybe something like «-1 action. If you still have an unused action, trash a card». I’m guessing that a straight up «Trash a card» would be too game-changing.
"Gain a copy of this" would be way too powerful though, unless it had something like "If this card costs $4 or less, gain a copy of it". Otherwise, you could buy one copy of an expensive action, and then make multiple copies of it
I mean, the ones we've seen so far have all been game-warping in their own Way, so why would that be so bad?
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Looking at the list of Way names*, I'm wondering whether it's the Goat or the Rat that trashes.
(* http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?title=Menagerie_(expansion)&diff=47454&oldid=47447)
I’m guessing goat. I think rat would be something like «Gain a copy of this».
Also, my guess is that the goat has the «an unused action» text. Maybe something like «-1 action. If you still have an unused action, trash a card». I’m guessing that a straight up «Trash a card» would be too game-changing.
"Gain a copy of this" would be way too powerful though, unless it had something like "If this card costs $4 or less, gain a copy of it". Otherwise, you could buy one copy of an expensive action, and then make multiple copies of it
I mean, the ones we've seen so far have all been game-warping in their own Way, so why would that be so bad?
:) I wasn’t Way off:
http://imgur.com/vf17Yf1.png
Although I didn’t predict the «discard a Treasure»-part.
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Way of the turtle has some interesting combos.
Lining up your treasure maps is now gauranteed. Also, this is another way for you to gain an imp from your tormentor and not end your action phase.
Not quite guaranteed. If you Turtle one map away, you can only use it if you draw the second map with your initial 5-card hand, since the Turtled card can only be used at the start of your turn. If you draw the second map during your turn (unless, of course, it's with a start-of-turn draw like a Den of Sin or a Turtled draw that you resolved first), you're out of luck. And note that it wouldn't work to Turtle the second map either, because it says to trash a second map from your hand, and cards that are set aside are not in your hand
No, if you didn't have your second treasure map in your initial 5-card hand, you would just Turtle the first Treasure Map again. And repeat until it does line up. Yes, if you draw the second Treasure Map at some point during your turn, you've missed it for that shuffle. But if you are drawing a lot each turn anyway; then you wouldn't use Turtle on Treasure Map to start with.
Okay, that's a good point. You'd almost certainly hit it after a couple of reshuffles. Still, it's not completely guaranteed, since you could still miss it on each reshuffle
.... Although I just realized that Cobbler and a Turtled Treasure Map would be an absolute guarantee, since Cobbler gains a card costing up to $4 (which Treasure Map is) to your hand at the start of your turn! Since you get to choose the order of start-of-turn effects, choose Cobbler first, gain that second Treasure Map, then play your Turtled Map!
It's impossible to miss a treasure map on the reshuffle; you still get the card.
Turn 1 and 2 buy silver and tm
Turn 3 and 4 buy tm and pass
By turn 5 you automatically have started turtling your tm. Now it's just a matter of when you draw your 2nd tm. guaranteed turn 5-7.
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Way of the turtle has some interesting combos.
Lining up your treasure maps is now gauranteed. Also, this is another way for you to gain an imp from your tormentor and not end your action phase.
Not quite guaranteed. If you Turtle one map away, you can only use it if you draw the second map with your initial 5-card hand, since the Turtled card can only be used at the start of your turn. If you draw the second map during your turn (unless, of course, it's with a start-of-turn draw like a Den of Sin or a Turtled draw that you resolved first), you're out of luck. And note that it wouldn't work to Turtle the second map either, because it says to trash a second map from your hand, and cards that are set aside are not in your hand
No, if you didn't have your second treasure map in your initial 5-card hand, you would just Turtle the first Treasure Map again. And repeat until it does line up. Yes, if you draw the second Treasure Map at some point during your turn, you've missed it for that shuffle. But if you are drawing a lot each turn anyway; then you wouldn't use Turtle on Treasure Map to start with.
Okay, that's a good point. You'd almost certainly hit it after a couple of reshuffles. Still, it's not completely guaranteed, since you could still miss it on each reshuffle
.... Although I just realized that Cobbler and a Turtled Treasure Map would be an absolute guarantee, since Cobbler gains a card costing up to $4 (which Treasure Map is) to your hand at the start of your turn! Since you get to choose the order of start-of-turn effects, choose Cobbler first, gain that second Treasure Map, then play your Turtled Map!
It's impossible to miss a treasure map on the reshuffle; you still get the card.
Turn 1 and 2 buy silver and tm
Turn 3 and 4 buy tm and pass
By turn 5 you automatically have started turtling your tm. Now it's just a matter of when you draw your 2nd tm. guaranteed turn 5-7.
Good point! You could also buy non-drawing Action cards (or buy them and just not use them) until you've activated TM
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Can you use a Way when playing a card affected by Enchantress?
Yes, Donald X. answered on Discord: "Enchantress is a lot like a Way. The main thing is that you can beat Enchantress by doing the Way instead."
This ruling seems to detract from the power of Enchantress much more than the other ruling (the Enchantress effect wins, Way or not) would detract from the power of Ways, making Enchantress a less interesting card. Which I think is unfortunate! Is there some hidden reasoning behind this ruling that I'm not seeing?
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Can you use a Way when playing a card affected by Enchantress?
Yes, Donald X. answered on Discord: "Enchantress is a lot like a Way. The main thing is that you can beat Enchantress by doing the Way instead."
This ruling seems to detract from the power of Enchantress much more than the other ruling (the Enchantress effect wins, Way or not) would detract from the power of Ways, making Enchantress a less interesting card. Which I think is unfortunate! Is there some hidden reasoning behind this ruling that I'm not seeing?
Just the normal principle that when two or more things happen at the same time you can choose the order. So, Enchantress is effectively a forced Way. Both Ways and Enchantress say "ignore the normal text and replace it with ____________"
If you have Enchantress and a particular Way both trying to change a card, you can choose the order, either:
- Enchantress changes card
- Way changes card
or
- Way changes card
- Enchantress changes card
So, whichever is done second will erase what the first one did. Obviously choosing the second option would be pointless, though, since it would be the same effect as if you just didn't use the Way at all. But since there's a general rule that you can choose the order, you can choose the option that nullifies Enchantress. You'd need a special rule that says "A Way cannot work on an Enchanted card" to prevent that from happening, and it seems a bit silly to create a rule that references just one specific card that's not even in the same expansion
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Can you play Sheepdog as a Way during your buy phase when you gain?
I didn't get the option to play it as Way of the Mole.
Game #36702705 turn 17
Yes you can. You should have gotten the option to use the Way with Sheepdog.
Did you use the Sheepdog card in your hand to react (then you should have clicked on the Way button on the card to get use the Way). If you clicked on the normal button that said "Sheepdog", then you could have clicked on the Way first, then that button, but we forgot to tell anybody that that worked, so that's our fault. For the release probably this will be changed to always ask if you use that normal button.
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So far, all the Ways we've seen are things that can be used in every kingdom. Their usefulness can vary based on what's in the kingdom, but they can be used. Or at least almost every kingdom. Technically it could be possible to have a kingdom with no +cards or +coins, or cards with +cards and +coin in equal numbers, where Chameleon would be useless, but that's rather unlikely
I'm guessing that the remaining Ways will be the same. There won't be, for example, a Necromancer-like Way that would require some trashing to be worthwhile, unless it came with trashing itself, and if there's any Way that involves gaining from the trash, it would have to be something like Lurker that also allows you trash from the Supply, or like Rogue that gives you a trashing attack
I wonder if there'll be any Ways that will be a sort of self-referential Courtier, like, "for every type this card has, choose one:"
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Chameleon + Catacombs is kinda funny - since the first half isn't written as a +Cards, it would be unaffected by Chameleon, but the second part is written as +Cards. So, with Chameleon, it becomes "Look at the top 3 cards of your deck. Choose one: Put them into your hand; or discard them and +$3" So, basically you either take the top three cards or you get $3. But of course, you have to decide whether to use the Way before you even know whether you'll choose the affected option
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So far, all the Ways we've seen are things that can be used in every kingdom. Their usefulness can vary based on what's in the kingdom, but they can be used. Or at least almost every kingdom. Technically it could be possible to have a kingdom with no +cards or +coins, or cards with +cards and +coin in equal numbers, where Chameleon would be useless, but that's rather unlikely
I'm guessing that the remaining Ways will be the same. There won't be, for example, a Necromancer-like Way that would require some trashing to be worthwhile, unless it came with trashing itself, and if there's any Way that involves gaining from the trash, it would have to be something like Lurker that also allows you trash from the Supply, or like Rogue that gives you a trashing attack
I wonder if there'll be any Ways that will be a sort of self-referential Courtier, like, "for every type this card has, choose one:"
Tomb is a Landmark that only works with trashing, so I don't see why there couldn't be a Way that involved trashing.
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So far, all the Ways we've seen are things that can be used in every kingdom. Their usefulness can vary based on what's in the kingdom, but they can be used.
Edge case: You can have a Kingdom with no action cards.
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I looked and couldn't find that this had been asked yet (and playing with previews are over, so can't test online):
If I Throne Room A Duration card, and choose Way of the Turtle for one of the plays, such that the Duration card gets set aside, does the Throne Room get discarded or stay in play? By the current Throne Room rules, it would get discarded (since the Duration is no longer in play), but I *think* this might be the first case where a TR'ed Duration card can be set aside.
Seems like it might be nice if it stayed out for tracking purposes.
I'm sure this will covered in the rulebook, but I hope it's ok that I'm asking now.
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The Throne Room gets discarded, for the reason you stated. Throne Room stay-out rules weren't made under the assumption that Durations could remove themselves from play, in fact that's the opposite of what Durations conceptually stand for.
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Hmm, so...
You can play TR + Caravan Guard and choose Turtle once. This gives you +1 Card and +1 Action now, then beginning of next turn you get +$1 and play Caravan Guard again (causing it to stay in play), getting +1 Card and +1 Action. Then beginning of next turn you get +$1.
Or you can play TR + Caravan Guard and choose Turtle both times. This gives you nothing now. Next turn you play Caravan Guard twice (causing it to stay in play), getting +2 Cards and +2 Actions. Then beginning of next turn you get +$2. (This is like Ghost hitting Caravan Guard.)
Nope, you cant.
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The Throne Room gets discarded, for the reason you stated. Throne Room stay-out rules weren't made under the assumption that Durations could remove themselves from play, in fact that's the opposite of what Durations conceptually stand for.
If you did choose the Way of the Turtle for your second play, then would the fact that the card is now set aside mean that you don't get the Duration effect on your next turn, since it's not in play, or do you still get the effect for the same reason that, for example, a self-trashing card can still be played twice by TR?
If the later, then it might make sense to keep the TR out for tracking purposes - in this case to remember that at the start of your next turn you're getting the duration effect from the first play, and the this-turn effect when you play it
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Or you can play TR + Caravan Guard and choose Turtle both times. This gives you nothing now. Next turn you play Caravan Guard twice (causing it to stay in play), getting +2 Cards and +2 Actions. Then beginning of next turn you get +$2. (This is like Ghost hitting Caravan Guard.)
If you choose Turtle both times, setting aside will fail the second time. So next turn you will only play it once.
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Or you can play TR + Caravan Guard and choose Turtle both times. This gives you nothing now. Next turn you play Caravan Guard twice (causing it to stay in play), getting +2 Cards and +2 Actions. Then beginning of next turn you get +$2. (This is like Ghost hitting Caravan Guard.)
If you choose Turtle both times, setting aside will fail the second time. So next turn you will only play it once.
Ah, right, "if you did". I should have checked the card.
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If you did choose the Way of the Turtle for your second play, then would the fact that the card is now set aside mean that you don't get the Duration effect on your next turn, since it's not in play, or do you still get the effect for the same reason that, for example, a self-trashing card can still be played twice by TR?
If the later, then it might make sense to keep the TR out for tracking purposes - in this case to remember that at the start of your next turn you're getting the duration effect from the first play, and the this-turn effect when you play it
When you play a card it doesn't matter where it is (except if it tries to move itself). And if it sets up a later ability it doesn't matter what happens to it (except if it tries to move itself). It will happen like a wrote above.
The rule for TR is that it stays in play as long as the Duration. We could imagine other rules, and indeed the rules used to be different, but it get super complicated quickly.
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The Throne Room gets discarded, for the reason you stated. Throne Room stay-out rules weren't made under the assumption that Durations could remove themselves from play, in fact that's the opposite of what Durations conceptually stand for.
If you did choose the Way of the Turtle for your second play, then would the fact that the card is now set aside mean that you don't get the Duration effect on your next turn, since it's not in play, or do you still get the effect for the same reason that, for example, a self-trashing card can still be played twice by TR?
Jeebus answered already that you get the Duration effect next turn. To support the argument, for the rules it doesn't even make a difference if you use Turtle on the first or second play. You can turtle the card on first play, then play it normally on second play.
Strategically, though, every time the Duration card will reveal some hidden information (like drawing a card), players will play it normally on first play, in case the new information changes their plan. Since double Turtling doesn't "work" (see markus answer), players can always(*) afford to play it without Way on first play.
(*) Edge cases exist where you may want to double Turtle a Throned card. Say your hand is Throne Room, Treasure Hunter, Gold, Gold, Copper. You want to buy that King's Court, want to exchange the Treasure Hunter before a reshuffle, but also are under a Haunted Woods, and you don't want to topdeck the Throne Room. Your opponent gained lots of cards last turn, and you don't want the Silvers. Then Throne the Treasure Hunter and Turtle it both times. Well, maybe not the best example but you get the picture.
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(*) Edge cases exist where you may want to double Turtle a Throned card. Say your hand is Throne Room, Treasure Hunter, Gold, Gold, Copper. You want to buy that King's Court, want to exchange the Treasure Hunter before a reshuffle, but also are under a Haunted Woods, and you don't want to topdeck the Throne Room. Your opponent gained lots of cards last turn, and you don't want the Silvers. Then Throne the Treasure Hunter and Turtle it both times. Well, maybe not the best example but you get the picture.
Since 2nd-edition Throne Room is optional, you don't really need to double-turtle, right?
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(*) Edge cases exist where you may want to double Turtle a Throned card. Say your hand is Throne Room, Treasure Hunter, Gold, Gold, Copper. You want to buy that King's Court, want to exchange the Treasure Hunter before a reshuffle, but also are under a Haunted Woods, and you don't want to topdeck the Throne Room. Your opponent gained lots of cards last turn, and you don't want the Silvers. Then Throne the Treasure Hunter and Turtle it both times. Well, maybe not the best example but you get the picture.
Since 2nd-edition Throne Room is optional, you don't really need to double-turtle, right?
The option is playing a card at all; if you do, you have to play it twice.
On the other hand, if you Turtle (single or double) the Treasure Hunter, you wouldn't be able to exchange it that turn. (maybe in the above scenario the reshuffle is still a turn away)
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On the other hand, if you Turtle (single or double) the Treasure Hunter, you wouldn't be able to exchange it that turn. (maybe in the above scenario the reshuffle is still a turn away)
You are right, that totally kills my example (other Ways keep the card in play, but not the Turtle).
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Oh no! Am I the only person who's taken this long to re-read "a turtle that can hold its breath for longer than anyone can stay interested" in the set's flavour text and realise what it's talking about? (-8
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Turtle Way is awesome :o basically makes it possible to tavern any action card for as long as needed. It's a great perk of tavern cards like Ratcatcher and Transmogrify; once one is done with them, they can be left on the tavern and won't clutter up one's deck anymore.
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I think I have this right?
Example: +Card token on Moat pile, Way of the Ox on board.
I play a Moat as my last action for some reason.
Token first gives me +1 Card, before I do anything. I draw a Smithy.
Now I choose whether to use Moat's effect or Way of the Ox's effect. I want to play the Smithy more than the Moat, and I'd like to not draw anything dead, so I can choose Way of the Ox, even though I already drew a card from the token.
So in this case, Moat can either be a vanilla Village (+1 Card, +2 Actions) or a Smithy (+1 Card, +2 Cards), but I get to choose which one I like best after I draw one card from the token. It seems like Pathfinding, while already very powerful, is even more powerful when combined with Ways.
All correct. With Pathfinding you get even more info about your hand before you make the decision for a Way or not.
Note that opponnts reacting to your attacks with Moats or similar effects also happens before the Way decision. So if your Coven is Moated, Turtle it aways for next turn if you don't need the +1 Action and +$2 right now.
Sure, but then your opponent could just Turtle their Moat away too. Moat effectively becomes a Champion (well, the "when another player plays an Attack card, it doesn't affect you" part) if you just Turtle it every turn.
That wouldn't work, though. You have to reveal moat from your hand to block an attack. If you've set it aside with Turtle, it can't block attacks
You're absolutely right, of course. I didn't realize it doesn't come back into your hand until next turn.
OK, so clearly I was ahead of my time with this post.
With Way of the Frog, Moat effectively becomes (the defensive part of) Champion, though you sacrifice a card per turn to do that.
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OK, so clearly I was ahead of my time with this post.
With Way of the Frog, Moat effectively becomes (the defensive part of) Champion, though you sacrifice a card per turn to do that.
Note that you can now be attacked on your own turn (Black Cat, for example), so it isn't a complete protection. But I guess it's good against the usual Junkers that people often consider getting a Moat for.
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Note that you can now be attacked on your own turn (Black Cat, for example), so it isn't a complete protection. But I guess it's good against the usual Junkers that people often consider getting a Moat for.
It's just Black Cat, isn't it?
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Caravan Guard -> Way of the Mouse -> an Attack?
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Caravan Guard -> Way of the Mouse -> an Attack?
Right. Caravan Guard can of course be replaced by any of the new Reactions that can be played now at unusual times.
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Caravan Guard -> Way of the Mouse -> an Attack?
Right! Now you can actually play any card when it's not your turn. Also works with Black Cat, Sheepdog or Falconer.
Edit: Ninja'd
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Caravan Guard -> Way of the Mouse -> an Attack?
Right! Now you can actually play any card when it's not your turn. Also works with Black Cat, Sheepdog or Falconer.
Any card costing (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/3/3d/Coin2.png/16px-Coin2.png) or (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/3/32/Coin3.png/16px-Coin3.png) anyway.
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Sheepdog (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Sheepdog) with Black Cat (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Black_Cat) as the Way of the Mouse (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Way_of_the_Mouse) card is fun... your opponent gives you a Curse? Just respond with Sheepdog as Black Cat, give them one right back!
Even better if the Black Cat draws you a Watchtower, which you then use to trash the Curse you got!
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Caravan Guard -> Way of the Mouse -> an Attack?
Right! Now you can actually play any card when it's not your turn. Also works with Black Cat, Sheepdog or Falconer.
Any card costing (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/3/3d/Coin2.png/16px-Coin2.png) or (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/3/32/Coin3.png/16px-Coin3.png) anyway.
Hint: Vassal costs $3.
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Sheepdog (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Sheepdog) with Black Cat (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Black_Cat) as the Way of the Mouse (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Way_of_the_Mouse) card is fun... your opponent gives you a Curse? Just respond with Sheepdog as Black Cat, give them one right back!
Even better if the Black Cat draws you a Watchtower, which you then use to trash the Curse you got!
Sheepdog with Black Cat as the Mouse could lead to all kinds of shenanigans. Your opponent buys Embassy, causing you to gain a Silver, then you curse them right back!
Your opponent buys a Province, letting you use Fool's Gold's reaction. Since that gains you a Gold, you can then use Sheepdog as Black Cat, which also draws the gold you just gained!
Governor would become a lot more dangerous to play if you don't choose the draw cards option
Attacks like Swindler and Locusts can also be turned around to curse the other person (and in multiplayer really sucks for the other players who get both the original attack and your reaction!)
And basically any other junking attack
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Caravan Guard -> Way of the Mouse -> an Attack?
Right! Now you can actually play any card when it's not your turn. Also works with Black Cat, Sheepdog or Falconer.
Any card costing (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/3/3d/Coin2.png/16px-Coin2.png) or (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/3/32/Coin3.png/16px-Coin3.png) anyway.
Hint: Vassal costs $3.
Oh man. There's just insane possibilities. Can't wait to see a game where someone plays Witch to give their opponent a Curse, and in response the opponent draws and plays their entire deck and gains all 8 Provinces to end the game in a win.
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Can't wait to see a game where [...]
This sounds like a challenge: empty the supply in response to your opponent attacking you. (My guess: possible, but trickier than it looks once you notice that you can't use +Action, can't buy and can't cost-reduce.)
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Can't wait to see a game where [...]
This sounds like a challenge: empty the supply in response to your opponent attacking you. (My guess: possible, but trickier than it looks once you notice that you can't use +Action, can't buy and can't cost-reduce.)
Cost reduction would work like normal right? Both Bridge and Highway style?
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Can't wait to see a game where [...]
This sounds like a challenge: empty the supply in response to your opponent attacking you. (My guess: possible, but trickier than it looks once you notice that you can't use +Action, can't buy and can't cost-reduce.)
Cost reduction would work like normal right? Both Bridge and Highway style?
Interesting. So in reacting you could actually help your opponent.
Player A has $15 and 2 buys. Buys a Province.
Player B reacts with a Back Cat, playing it as Way of the Mouse - Vassal. Discards a Bridge, playing it.
Player A then buys a 2nd Province at $7!
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Can't wait to see a game where [...]
This sounds like a challenge: empty the supply in response to your opponent attacking you. (My guess: possible, but trickier than it looks once you notice that you can't use +Action, can't buy and can't cost-reduce.)
Cost reduction would work like normal right? Both Bridge and Highway style?
Interesting. So in reacting you could actually help your opponent.
Player A has $15 and 2 buys. Buys a Province.
Player B reacts with a Back Cat, playing it as Way of the Mouse - Vassal. Discards a Bridge, playing it.
Player A then buys a 2nd Province at $7!
Actually, I now realize that Vassal's play is optional, so a) you'd be unlikely to do that; b) even if it you were forced to play a specific Action, you could just choose Way of the Mouse until you hit something that didn't help your opponent.
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Can't wait to see a game where [...]
This sounds like a challenge: empty the supply in response to your opponent attacking you. (My guess: possible, but trickier than it looks once you notice that you can't use +Action, can't buy and can't cost-reduce.)
Cost reduction would work like normal right? Both Bridge and Highway style?
Interesting. So in reacting you could actually help your opponent.
Player A has $15 and 2 buys. Buys a Province.
Player B reacts with a Back Cat, playing it as Way of the Mouse - Vassal. Discards a Bridge, playing it.
Player A then buys a 2nd Province at $7!
Actually, I now realize that Vassal's play is optional, so a) you'd be unlikely to do that; b) even if it you were forced to play a specific Action, you could just choose Way of the Mouse until you hit something that didn't help your opponent.
For your point A, could have been Herald though. Not directly of course, but Vassal could find Herald, and you choose to play Herald, getting unlucky when Herald hits Bridge. But point B is a good one; you could just Vassal again. Forever until you hit a non-action or run out of deck.
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Can't wait to see a game where [...]
This sounds like a challenge: empty the supply in response to your opponent attacking you. (My guess: possible, but trickier than it looks once you notice that you can't use +Action, can't buy and can't cost-reduce.)
Cost reduction would work like normal right? Both Bridge and Highway style?
Interesting. So in reacting you could actually help your opponent.
Player A has $15 and 2 buys. Buys a Province.
Player B reacts with a Back Cat, playing it as Way of the Mouse - Vassal. Discards a Bridge, playing it.
Player A then buys a 2nd Province at $7!
Actually, I now realize that Vassal's play is optional, so a) you'd be unlikely to do that; b) even if it you were forced to play a specific Action, you could just choose Way of the Mouse until you hit something that didn't help your opponent.
For your point A, could have been Herald though. Not directly of course, but Vassal could find Herald, and you choose to play Herald, getting unlucky when Herald hits Bridge. But point B is a good one; you could just Vassal again. Forever until you hit a non-action or run out of deck.
This makes me realize that Vassal on Way of the Mouse could be quite powerful actually... clear your deck of non-actions; and playing any single action gives you +(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/3/3d/Coin2.png/16px-Coin2.png) per card in your deck!
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Cost reduction would work like normal right? Both Bridge and Highway style?
Gosh. It would, wouldn't it. This is getting silly!
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This makes me realize that Vassal on Way of the Mouse could be quite powerful actually... clear your deck of non-actions; and playing any single action gives you +(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/3/3d/Coin2.png/16px-Coin2.png) per card in your deck!
When you say clear you deck of non-actions, you just mean the top card, right? If the top card is a non-action, it stays in the discard pile and your Vassal play is done. You're right that if you have multiple actions in a row on top of your deck, you could keep using Way of the Mouse to play them all as Vassal, getting 2 coins for each one you play.
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+(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/3/3d/Coin2.png/16px-Coin2.png) per card in your deck!
Philosopher's Stone, eat your heart out.
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This makes me realize that Vassal on Way of the Mouse could be quite powerful actually... clear your deck of non-actions; and playing any single action gives you +(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/3/3d/Coin2.png/16px-Coin2.png) per card in your deck!
When you say clear you deck of non-actions, you just mean the top card, right? If the top card is a non-action, it stays in the discard pile and your Vassal play is done. You're right that if you have multiple actions in a row on top of your deck, you could keep using Way of the Mouse to play them all as Vassal, getting 2 coins for each one you play.
No, I meant clearing your whole deck... if you have even 1 non-action in your deck, you have the risk of it being your top card. Or even if it's in your top 2-3 cards the combo isn't great. You need to basically have 3 action cards in a row on top of your deck for this to generate (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/4/47/Coin8.png/16px-Coin8.png); the easiest way to ensure that is to have only actions in your deck.
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This makes me realize that Vassal on Way of the Mouse could be quite powerful actually... clear your deck of non-actions; and playing any single action gives you +(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/3/3d/Coin2.png/16px-Coin2.png) per card in your deck!
When you say clear you deck of non-actions, you just mean the top card, right? If the top card is a non-action, it stays in the discard pile and your Vassal play is done. You're right that if you have multiple actions in a row on top of your deck, you could keep using Way of the Mouse to play them all as Vassal, getting 2 coins for each one you play.
No, I meant clearing your whole deck... if you have even 1 non-action in your deck, you have the risk of it being your top card. Or even if it's in your top 2-3 cards the combo isn't great. You need to basically have 3 action cards in a row on top of your deck for this to generate (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/4/47/Coin8.png/16px-Coin8.png); the easiest way to ensure that is to have only actions in your deck.
Oh, nevermind, I just misunderstood what you meant. I thought you were saying that Way of the Mouse as Vassal could somehow clear your deck for you. You meant "first, you clear of deck of non-actions, and then you have this effect of +2 coins per card in your deck."
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I've just noticed that Way of the Mouse buffs Conspirator nicely.
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This makes me realize that Vassal on Way of the Mouse could be quite powerful actually... clear your deck of non-actions; and playing any single action gives you +(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/3/3d/Coin2.png/16px-Coin2.png) per card in your deck!
When you say clear you deck of non-actions, you just mean the top card, right? If the top card is a non-action, it stays in the discard pile and your Vassal play is done. You're right that if you have multiple actions in a row on top of your deck, you could keep using Way of the Mouse to play them all as Vassal, getting 2 coins for each one you play.
No, I meant clearing your whole deck... if you have even 1 non-action in your deck, you have the risk of it being your top card. Or even if it's in your top 2-3 cards the combo isn't great. You need to basically have 3 action cards in a row on top of your deck for this to generate (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/4/47/Coin8.png/16px-Coin8.png); the easiest way to ensure that is to have only actions in your deck.
Oh, nevermind, I just misunderstood what you meant. I thought you were saying that Way of the Mouse as Vassal could somehow clear your deck for you. You meant "first, you clear of deck of non-actions, and then you have this effect of +2 coins per card in your deck."
Ah yeah, I see how that sentence was ambiguous!
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Vassal Mouse with "play this now" Reactions can get really weird in the right (=constructed) Kingdom. With a Throne-chain type deck that relies on gainers rather than buying, you can basically take a turn in the middle of your opponent's turn. Add in Mandarin, along with Crown as your Throne variant and possibly Capitalism (which needs to have been bought by your opponent), and you can get your cards back out of play to be ready to do it again (and even stack your deck for your next Mouse Vassal "turn"). And if you happen to have a card that triggers your opponents' "play this now" Reactions, and they have similar decks...
Let's see: Caravan Guard, Rogue, Watchtower (Rogue+Watchtower=Mandarin gains not limited by the Supply), Crown, Mandarin, Storyteller, four other good Kingdom cards for this deck (preferably facilitating goals other than gaining cards, such as VP tokens, to keep the game from ending too quickly), Capitalism, and Way of the Mouse(=Vassal). And, of course, six players...
Note that while this could be an infinite loop, playing Rogue to gain Mandarin lets your opponents interrupt you with their own Caravan Guard Mouse Vassals, making it actually several infinite loops taking turns interrupting each other (assuming more than one player is set up correctly).
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Way of the Mouse with Vassal set aside can indeed cause many new things. Note that Crown doesn't work in that deck you created, it doesn't do anything when you play it and it's not your turn.
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Way of the Mouse with Vassal set aside can indeed cause many new things. Note that Crown doesn't work in that deck you created, it doesn't do anything when you play it and it's not your turn.
Ha, playing Crown on an opponent’s turn would be hilarious. You could also now play Crown during your Cleanup or Night phase. Or in between turns; during Donate resolving.
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Way of the Mouse with Vassal set aside can indeed cause many new things. Note that Crown doesn't work in that deck you created, it doesn't do anything when you play it and it's not your turn.
Ha, playing Crown on an opponent’s turn would be hilarious. You could also now play Crown during your Cleanup or Night phase. Or in between turns; during Donate resolving.
I just realized Werewolf allows you do do any of the ways during Night.
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Way of the Mouse with Vassal set aside can indeed cause many new things. Note that Crown doesn't work in that deck you created, it doesn't do anything when you play it and it's not your turn.
Ha, playing Crown on an opponent’s turn would be hilarious. You could also now play Crown during your Cleanup or Night phase. Or in between turns; during Donate resolving.
How can you play it during Cleanup?
You can do it during your own Donate (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Donate) via Market Square (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Market_Square) and Sheepdog (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Sheepdog) right? I haven't spotted a way to do it during another player's Donate.
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Way of the Mouse with Vassal set aside can indeed cause many new things. Note that Crown doesn't work in that deck you created, it doesn't do anything when you play it and it's not your turn.
Ha, playing Crown on an opponent’s turn would be hilarious. You could also now play Crown during your Cleanup or Night phase. Or in between turns; during Donate resolving.
How can you play it during Cleanup?
You can do it during your own Donate (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Donate) via Market Square (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Market_Square) and Sheepdog (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Sheepdog) right? I haven't spotted a way to do it during another player's Donate.
For your opponent's Donate, they trash Hunting Ground, gaining a Duchy. You react with Black Cat playing Moused Vassal
Still not sure how to play it during Clean-Up
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Way of the Mouse with Vassal set aside can indeed cause many new things. Note that Crown doesn't work in that deck you created, it doesn't do anything when you play it and it's not your turn.
Ha, playing Crown on an opponent’s turn would be hilarious. You could also now play Crown during your Cleanup or Night phase. Or in between turns; during Donate resolving.
How can you play it during Cleanup?
You can do it during your own Donate (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Donate) via Market Square (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Market_Square) and Sheepdog (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Sheepdog) right? I haven't spotted a way to do it during another player's Donate.
For your opponent's Donate, they trash Hunting Ground, gaining a Duchy. You react with Black Cat playing Moused Vassal
Still not sure how to play it during Clean-Up
Oh, wait, I got it - play Hermit, don't buy anything. During Clean-Up, you trash it and gain a Madman. Then you respond to the gaining with Sheepdog playing Moused Vassal
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Right. Also Improve lets you gain a card in Clean-up. But Innovation also let you play gained cards in Clean-up.
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Way of the Mouse with Vassal set aside can indeed cause many new things. Note that Crown doesn't work in that deck you created, it doesn't do anything when you play it and it's not your turn.
Ha, playing Crown on an opponent’s turn would be hilarious. You could also now play Crown during your Cleanup or Night phase. Or in between turns; during Donate resolving.
How can you play it during Cleanup?
You can do it during your own Donate (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Donate) via Market Square (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Market_Square) and Sheepdog (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Sheepdog) right? I haven't spotted a way to do it during another player's Donate.
For your opponent's Donate, they trash Hunting Ground, gaining a Duchy. You react with Black Cat playing Moused Vassal
Still not sure how to play it during Clean-Up
Oh, wait, I got it - play Hermit, don't buy anything. During Clean-Up, you trash it and gain a Madman. Then you respond to the gaining with Sheepdog playing Moused Vassal
Nice one. I think I was thinking of cards that get played when you discard them, but of course those all say "except during Clean-Up" so that doesn't work. But Hermit does, yeah.
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It's as if cards may now be played on a menagerie of occasions 8)
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I like that the Events shown here can all make a pretty big impact. I'm sure Toil can be used in some kind of pseudo-infinite loop.
Setup: enough bridges to reduce cost by 5, have $2, Throne Room, Market in hand, Throne Room, Market in discard (no card in draw pile)
1) Buy Toil, play TR, play Market twice (draw TR, Market, get $2)
2) Buy TR, Market
Back to 1)
It's not really infinite - you'll piledrive the thronerooms and markets, when the first one of these goes that's the end of the loop. It probably is a game ending megaturn, but the set up might take some doing...
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So this means that it has the same timing as Enchantress? You can choose to resolve Enchantress first and then the Way, meaning that the Way "wins". Or you can choose to do it the other way around, but the result would be the same as not choosing the Way at all.
It's the same timing as Enchantress; obv. you will choose to have the Way "win."
Since you've given up on the other thread, I'll try asking this here. Is it like I wrote above, that you apply Enchantress first and then the Way, so that the Way "overwrites" Enchantress? Or is it rather, you apply the Way first, and then Enchantress tries but fails to do anything? Thanks.
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So this means that it has the same timing as Enchantress? You can choose to resolve Enchantress first and then the Way, meaning that the Way "wins". Or you can choose to do it the other way around, but the result would be the same as not choosing the Way at all.
It's the same timing as Enchantress; obv. you will choose to have the Way "win."
Since you've given up on the other thread, I'll try asking this here. Is it like I wrote above, that you apply Enchantress first and then the Way, so that the Way "overwrites" Enchantress? Or is it rather, you apply the Way first, and then Enchantress tries but fails to do anything? Thanks.
Two things need to happen at the same time: Enchantress's effect and applying a Way. Pick one to do first. Either one replaces following the card's instructions with something else, and then the other one doesn't do anything - there's no "following the card's instructions" left to replace. Since the Way is optional, in practice if you don't want the Way you'll just resolve Enchantress and not get the Way involved, and if you want the Way you'll do it and then Enchantress doesn't bother you.
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Two things need to happen at the same time: Enchantress's effect and applying a Way. Pick one to do first. Either one replaces following the card's instructions with something else, and then the other one doesn't do anything - there's no "following the card's instructions" left to replace. Since the Way is optional, in practice if you don't want the Way you'll just resolve Enchantress and not get the Way involved, and if you want the Way you'll do it and then Enchantress doesn't bother you.
Thanks. Does Way of the Chameleon also override Enchantress this way? It seems to me that with Chameleon you're following the card's instructions when Enchantress tries to replace them (and then Chameleon kicks in whenever you get to +Cards or +$). Otherwise I guess it means that Chameleon replaces the instructions with different ones right then, so that you're not following the card's actual instructions any more. But even saying that, what about playing a card with no +Cards or +$, like Chapel? Then you're not following different instructions, so Enchantress should be able to replace them?
Edit: Last sentence withdrawn.
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But even saying that, what about playing a card with no +Cards or +$, like Chapel? Then you're not following different instructions, so Enchantress should be able to replace them?
At the least, whether the instructions contain all the same words or not shouldn’t be a consideration when deciding whether they are the “same” instructions. “Same” instructions should be defined by some intrinsic property of the instruction (what created the instruction, when it was created, etc) that doesn’t care about what words are in it.
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But even saying that, what about playing a card with no +Cards or +$, like Chapel? Then you're not following different instructions, so Enchantress should be able to replace them?
At the least, whether the instructions contain all the same words or not shouldn’t be a consideration when deciding whether they are the “same” instructions. “Same” instructions should be defined by some intrinsic property of the instruction (what created the instruction, when it was created, etc) that doesn’t care about what words are in it.
Hmm, I guess you're right about that. With an Enchanted Pearl Diver I think we're not following the card's instructions anymore.
So I'll take back the sentence quoted above about Chapel.
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Thanks. Does Way of the Chameleon also override Enchantress this way? It seems to me that with Chameleon you're following the card's instructions when Enchantress tries to replace them (and then Chameleon kicks in whenever you get to +Cards or +$). Otherwise I guess it means that Chameleon replaces the instructions with different ones right then, so that you're not following the card's actual instructions any more.
Way of the Chameleon also overrides Enchantress.
Let's see the card text for Enchantress.
"Until your next turn, the first time each other player plays an Action card on their turn, they get +1 Card and +1 Action instead of following its instructions.
At the start of your next turn, +2 Cards."
Enchantress looks for something very specific. It only does its thing the first time you play an Action card, instead of following its instructions.
With Way of the Chameleon, we replaced that with something else. The something else happens around the same time, and also involves following the instructions... but it's something else. It's not what Enchantress was referring to. So Enchantress still doesn't happen.
It's Ironworks all over again.
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Now that I'm understanding the order of operations, I think the reply below might not have been a complete answer:
Lantern modifies what happens due to following the instructions on Border Guard. With Enchantress in effect, you ignore those instructions, so Lantern does nothing.
Yes, with Enchantress in effect, you are ignoring the instructions, so Lantern does nothing. But the question remains: What if you apply Lantern before Enchantress? Are you then ignoring the instructions so that Enchantress can't find the very specific thing it's looking for?
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Now that I'm understanding the order of operations, I think the reply below might not have been a complete answer:
Lantern modifies what happens due to following the instructions on Border Guard. With Enchantress in effect, you ignore those instructions, so Lantern does nothing.
Yes, with Enchantress in effect, you are ignoring the instructions, so Lantern does nothing. But the question remains: What if you apply Lantern before Enchantress? Are you then ignoring the instructions so that Enchantress can't find the very specific thing it's looking for?
Lantern never gets involved; we never reach the point at which Lantern would do anything.
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Now that I'm understanding the order of operations, I think the reply below might not have been a complete answer:
Lantern modifies what happens due to following the instructions on Border Guard. With Enchantress in effect, you ignore those instructions, so Lantern does nothing.
Yes, with Enchantress in effect, you are ignoring the instructions, so Lantern does nothing. But the question remains: What if you apply Lantern before Enchantress? Are you then ignoring the instructions so that Enchantress can't find the very specific thing it's looking for?
Lantern never gets involved; we never reach the point at which Lantern would do anything.
So I was right in the rules thread; lantern is timed as when-would-reveal, not when-would-resolve.