Dominion Strategy Forum
Dominion => Dominion General Discussion => Topic started by: Donald X. on March 02, 2020, 02:59:44 am
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So, it's come to this. Previews. I suppose I have myself to blame.
Menagerie - hey isn't that the name of a card? - has 400 cards, like Adventures. That includes 30 Kingdom cards. There are two major themes: Exile and Horses. There are also two kinds of landscapes: Ways and Events, with 20 of each. I'll do the math for you: 30 kingdom cards is 300 cards, plus 30 randomizers is 330, plus 40 landscapes is 370, and I'll just tell you now that there are 30 Horses. That means no Victory cards, and no other surprise extra piles.
Day 2 of previews will cover Horses, and day 3 Exile; day 4 will have landscapes, and day 5 will have... some more cards. Here on day 1 we have 5 miscellaneous cards, to get you started with a bunch, because as before the cards are immediately try-out-able at dominion.games.
(https://i.imgur.com/Zqdiz3O.png)
Snowy Village gives you a bunch of actions and a buy, but closes the door on even more actions that turn. Some of you may remember this from the holiday joke cards that were on dominionstrategy a few years ago. I wouldn't be expecting those other cards, but this one was worth doing.
Sheepdog gives Dominion another blue dog. You can play it anytime you gain a card. It may not even be your turn. Playing it means you put it into play and get your +2 Cards; it will be discarded in that turn's Clean-up, even if it's not yours. Using the Reaction part doesn't use up an Action; it just leaps into play and draws you cards. If it draws you another Sheepdog, you can use that one right away too; you can keep playing Sheepdogs until you run out of them.
Animal Fair gives you a weird way to pay for it. The card costs $7; the alternate payment just applies when you're buying one. At the point at which you'd pay your $7, you can trash an Action from your hand instead (and can do this when you don't have $7). And then what do you get, you get +$4 and some number of Buys.
Kiln is another in the long line of Explorers. It most easily gains Treasures, but if you can play an Action after it, you can gain a copy of that, and it can even gain Night cards.
And finally Barge is a Duration card with an effect you can have now or later. Handy if you don't want to draw dead cards, or have drawn your deck already. If you take it now, it's just discarded that turn. All the sets seem to squeeze in a few Duration cards these days, and this set has four of them.
Again, those of you on dominion.games, you can probably try the cards right about now.
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Does Animal Fair still cost a Buy if you trash an Action card?
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Does Animal Fair still cost a Buy if you trash an Action card?
Yes.
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I'm impressed by the simplicity and elegance of these cards! They are simple to understand and read for the most part, yet they create very interesting decisions within the game. I love them!
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So, it's come to this. Previews. I suppose I have myself to blame.
Menagerie - hey isn't that the name of a card? - has 400 cards, like Adventures. That includes 30 Kingdom cards. There are two major themes: Exile and Horses. There are also two kinds of landscapes: Ways and Events, with 20 of each. I'll do the math for you: 30 kingdom cards is 300 cards, plus 30 randomizers is 330, plus 40 landscapes is 370, and I'll just tell you now that there are 30 Horses. That means no Victory cards, and no other surprise extra piles.
Hunh, so Horses are a kind of card, but not a kingdom card? So, a non-supply card? 30 Horses ... three different types of Horses with ten cards each?
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I like the +1 buy per empty supply pile on Animal Fair. Very creative idea!
Sheepdog's reaction is interesting. I suppose the most practical use of its reaction would be in response to a junking/cursing attack. It would be pretty useless to use it when you buy a card, unless perhaps Villa and/or night cards are in the kingdom. As a reaction to a gainer card it might be useful too, basically +2 cards without spending an action
I also really like Snowy Village .... would that also trump Champion from Adventures? And what about Villagers from Renaissance? Are they nullified also?
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I feel like Animal Fair/Necropolis is a bit too powerful? Then again I guess Necro/Advance didn't break the game either.
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So, it's come to this. Previews. I suppose I have myself to blame.
Menagerie - hey isn't that the name of a card? - has 400 cards, like Adventures. That includes 30 Kingdom cards. There are two major themes: Exile and Horses. There are also two kinds of landscapes: Ways and Events, with 20 of each. I'll do the math for you: 30 kingdom cards is 300 cards, plus 30 randomizers is 330, plus 40 landscapes is 370, and I'll just tell you now that there are 30 Horses. That means no Victory cards, and no other surprise extra piles.
Hunh, so Horses are a kind of card, but not a kingdom card? So, a non-supply card? 30 Horses ... three different types of Horses with ten cards each?
It's kinda funny that we were all assuming it was a token, like coffers or villagers. Although, I guess there could still be some kind of +card token that the Horses give you, but that seems a bit overly complicated if so ...
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I also really like Snowy Village .... would that also trump Champion from Adventures? And what about Villagers from Renaissance? Are they nullified also?
It does stop both Champion's ability and further Villager-conversion that turn.
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I feel like Animal Fair/Necropolis is a bit too powerful? Then again I guess Necro/Advance didn't break the game either.
There's only a single Necropolis, though, so that would limit the effect. Presumably in games with both shelters and Animal Fair, most people would trash their Necropolis early on for an Animal Fair, so you'd end up with everyone having at least one Animal Fair very early in the game
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I feel like Animal Fair/Necropolis is a bit too powerful? Then again I guess Necro/Advance didn't break the game either.
It will sometimes feel pretty bad to open Animal Fair/$3-4 when your opponent opens Animal Fair/$4-5.
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I like the icon used for this set :-)
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Snowy Village does seem kind of overpowered for its price point. But then again, the "ignore any further +Actions" does limit its usefulness, since it basically limits what you can play after it, and the +Actions can't stack at all, so playing two or more Snowy Villages in a turn is of very limited use
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Things that are now possible but weren't before:
playing cards during other player's turns
being out of actions after having played champion
Snowy village might never become bad for you if you draw your entire deck and have some terminal payoff. As long as you have just one of them, you can arrange to play it as the last non-terminal. But buying it super early also won't be that great; it'll just be a worker's village.
Kiln is interesting. Mostly, it feels like buying it early is a trap. It requires at least +2 actions and having it plus another action card in hand to be good. Ideally, you might even want +3 actions to copy a non-terminal and not have it be the end of your turn. So you can't buy it early like haggler; you need to have something going on before that. In a strong deck it might be better than haggler because you get to play the new card the same turn.
Barge is super elegant.
Sheepdog is like horse traders vs junking attacks, but scaleable. Your opponent plays witch, you get a curse, you play sheepdog, you draw more sheepdogs, you play them, too. Then curses run out and you have a deck full of moats and lose the game.
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Things that are now possible but weren't before:
playing cards during other player's turns
Caravan Guard already exists.
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How about discarding cards during another player's Clean up phase?
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Wow, 40 landscapes? I'm excited for that. I'm also super pleased in anticipation of the inevitable release of Socks (https://dominionstrategy.com/2017/12/25/2017-holiday-kingdom/).
Some of you may remember this from the holiday joke cards that were on dominionstrategy a few years ago. I wouldn't be expecting those other cards
Oh...
Well, I love Snowy Village. It reminds me of Tragic Hero, another favorite card.
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If you gain a Sheepdog to your hand, can you play it right away, using the reaction?
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How about discarding cards during another player's Clean up phase?
At one time there was a scenario in which Outpost could be discarded in another player's clean-up phase, but I think that went away with the second edition.
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If you gain a Sheepdog to your hand, can you play it right away, using the reaction?
Yes, definitely.
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I'm hoping that there is a Sheep card that lets you gain a card now.
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Not quite the same as previous teasers, but so far we've seen two of the quotes already ("either now or" and "instead of paying").
It's interesting to see how Snowy Village has changed, and also how similar the art is.
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I remember the point in time when you said, Dark Ages would be the last full expansion. Afterwards Guilds would be released as a small bonus but that was supposed to be it. Now, almost eight years later, the expansions keep coming and they are of constantly high quality. It's great you're continuing!
Now let's look at the cards; they look cute and interesting so far, and not too strong (I guess we'll see the new Recruiters and Scepters later).
Snowy Village has a huge drawback that makes it not very suitable for long control-oriented games (2 players, engines) but that's less of a problem in games with 3 to 4 players because you don't want more than 3 or 4 copies of Snowy Village in your deck anyway (arguably you need only 1 but you'd get some more for consistency). I'll buy most other villages over Snowy Village, even regular Village seems better unless there is no other source of +buy.
Sheepdog is very elegant in its design but offers a lot of cute tricks and synergies. A lot of them probably aren't worth spending your $ on. There's an opportunity cost associated with buying multiple copies of a card that can easily turn into a brick, unless you can combine it consistently.
Animal Fair is the closest to busted among the five cards revealed so far. Gaining a source of +$4 early is so strong that I'd consider many cheap action cards as "ramps" into gaining an Animal Fair: Chapel, Stonemason, Lackeys, Pawn and other cheap cantrips seem great as alternative prices to pay. Necropolis was already mentioned. Looters are a bit weaker with Animal Fair around but you still want to go for Marauder or Cultist usually. Finally, you may want to consider gaining a couple of free Duchesses to trash them later for Animal Fairs.
Kiln looks strong in money based strategies as it's easy to duplicate your Golds while also producing money (unlike Mint). If you can incorporate Kiln in a gain-and-play style engine, your deck will quickly burst with value. Good card with a lot of build-around potential.
Barge is simple and elegant but only mediocre when compared to other $5-cost cards. Obviously this cost-slot is large and full of powerhouses and they can't all be the strongest... you get the gist. Looking at the latest Qvist ranking, I'd put this right next to Embassy (rank 90), so in the lowest third of the list. I might be underestimating it but I think Barge's flexibility is usually only relevant when you are over-building your deck, and you should have a compelling reason to do so in the first place. In most other cases it's a Smithy with +buy and in general, you want such a card. But sources of +3 cards and +1 buy are both pretty abundant nowadays and often you'll find a better deal in a kingdom.
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Things that are now possible but weren't before:
playing cards during other player's turns
Caravan Guard already exists.
*playing cards that don't immediately disappear from play
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So, it's come to this. Previews. I suppose I have myself to blame.
Menagerie - hey isn't that the name of a card? - has 400 cards, like Adventures. That includes 30 Kingdom cards. There are two major themes: Exile and Horses. There are also two kinds of landscapes: Ways and Events, with 20 of each. I'll do the math for you: 30 kingdom cards is 300 cards, plus 30 randomizers is 330, plus 40 landscapes is 370, and I'll just tell you now that there are 30 Horses. That means no Victory cards, and no other surprise extra piles.
Hunh, so Horses are a kind of card, but not a kingdom card? So, a non-supply card? 30 Horses ... three different types of Horses with ten cards each?
It's kinda funny that we were all assuming it was a token, like coffers or villagers. Although, I guess there could still be some kind of +card token that the Horses give you, but that seems a bit overly complicated if so ...
We weren't all assuming that (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20049.msg824268#msg824268). :)
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I actually have high hopes for Barge. +3 cards +1 buy in one card is great no matter what way you slice it, and buying extras is so good for reliability because even using one Barge for duration draw at the end of a chain will make it very likely you kick off next turn, and you can repeat the process. Just like Tragic Hero, not a card to be underestimated.
I'm somewhat excited for Kiln and Snowy Village, and I enjoy the experimentatjon being done in this set all around.
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Play King's Court
Play King's Court (first time)
Play Kiln (first time)
Play Kiln (second time)
Play Kiln (third time)
Play King's Court (second time)
Kiln triggers x3; gain 3 King's Courts.
With 2 King's Courts and a Kiln in hand; wow.
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Things that are now possible but weren't before:
playing cards during other player's turns
Caravan Guard already exists.
*playing cards that don't immediately disappear from play
What do you mean? Caravan Guard when played on an opponent's turn will actually stay in play longer than Sheepdog. Not sure what you mean by immediately disappear from play.
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Play King's Court
Play King's Court (first time)
Play Kiln (first time)
Play Kiln (second time)
Play Kiln (third time)
Play King's Court (second time)
Kiln triggers x3; gain 3 King's Courts.
With 2 King's Courts and a Kiln in hand; wow.
Sorry, it doesn't work that way. You can gain a Kiln (from your first time Kiln when you play it the second time ), another Kiln (from your second time Kiln when you play it the third time) amd finally a King's Court (from your third playing of Kiln).
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Another previously (before Menagerie) existing way for a card to be discarded during another player's turn is if you call Duplicate during such a turn. Doesn't happen often, but sometimes opponent's Swindler hits a card with a cost with no bad card at that cost, and then you can Duplicate what your opponent makes you gain. The Duplicate will then be discarded at the end of your opponent's turn.
This used to be incorrect online, but has been corrected because it can now happen much more often with Sheepdog.
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Play King's Court
Play King's Court (first time)
Play Kiln (first time)
Play Kiln (second time)
Play Kiln (third time)
Play King's Court (second time)
Kiln triggers x3; gain 3 King's Courts.
With 2 King's Courts and a Kiln in hand; wow.
Sorry, it doesn't work that way. You can gain a Kiln (from your first time Kiln when you play it the second time ), another Kiln (from your second time Kiln when you play it the third time) amd finally a King's Court (from your third playing of Kiln).
Ah, right. So not nearly as good. But still definitely abusable.
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I really like the idea of dogs being vanilla +2 Cards with some reaction bonus.
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Things that are now possible but weren't before:
playing cards during other player's turns
Caravan Guard already exists.
*playing cards that don't immediately disappear from play
What do you mean? Caravan Guard when played on an opponent's turn will actually stay in play longer than Sheepdog. Not sure what you mean by immediately disappear from play.
Somehow thought it goes to tavern mat first. Nvm.
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I really like the idea of dogs being vanilla +2 Cards with some reaction bonus.
Does this include moat?
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Does "no other surprise extra piles" include non-card components? Or is the possibility still open that there are non-card components in the set?
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Does "no other surprise extra piles" include non-card components? Or is the possibility still open that there are non-card components in the set?
Well I'm pretty sure there are exile mats.
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I actually have high hopes for Barge.
I'm wondering how good it will be when compared with Wharf.
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So kiln does not interact with wish...is that because it is not in the supply or (the lose track rule)?
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So kiln does not interact with wish...is that because it is not in the supply or (the lose track rule)?
it's because wishes are not in the supply
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Suppose I have a kiln in play, and a sheepdog in my hand, and play something that lets me gain a card. I can play a sheepdog, and the kiln lets me first gain another sheepdog, which I can also play, also triggering the kiln. So does this mean that playing kiln with sheepdog in my hand lets me gain the entire pile of sheepdogs? I don't even need a card that lets me gain a card to trigger this combo; it can trigger from my normal buy in the Buy phase.
ETA: Oops, this was wrong for two reasons. First the gained sheepdogs would go to the discard pile, not your hand. This could be patched if you had a watchtower in your hand. But the more serious problem is that I misread Kiln; it doesn't cause you to gain a copy of every card you play, only the next card you play. So there's no broken combo here.
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Suppose I have a kiln in play, and a sheepdog in my hand, and play something that lets me gain a card. I can play a sheepdog, and the kiln lets me first gain another sheepdog, which I can also play, also triggering the kiln. So does this mean that playing kiln with sheepdog in my hand lets me gain the entire pile of sheepdogs? I don't even need a card that lets me gain a card to trigger this combo; it can trigger from my normal buy in the Buy phase.
Even if you use something like Sculptor to gain the first Sheepdog to hand (that one you can play immediately after gaining it), the Sheepdog that Kiln gains you goes to your discard pile. You can't play the gained Sheepdog from the discard pile.
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Even in this case, wouldn't you just (have the option to) first gain Sculptor, not Sheepdog?
Kiln says "The next time you play a card this turn, you may first gain a copy of it." So you'd have to choose to gain the Sculptor before it even gained you the Sheepdog.
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Even in this case, wouldn't you just (have the option to) first gain Sculptor, not Sheepdog?
Kiln says "The next time you play a card this turn, you may first gain a copy of it." So you'd have to choose to gain the Sculptor before it even gained you the Sheepdog.
I thought they were referring to a situation where you play Sculptor to gain a Sheepdog, then play that Sheepdog, and immediately afterwards play Kiln. At any rate, Kiln only activates "the next time you play" a card, so even if you got to play multiple cards as a reaction, only the first reaction would trigger Kiln
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One thing I didn't immediately consider until trying it out is that Snowy Village doesn't just make other villages not work. It also turns all your cantrips into terminal actions!
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I really like the idea of dogs being vanilla +2 Cards with some reaction bonus.
Does this include moat?
guard dog
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Kiln looks strong in money based strategies as it's easy to duplicate your Golds while also producing money (unlike Mint). If you can incorporate Kiln in a gain-and-play style engine, your deck will quickly burst with value. Good card with a lot of build-around potential.
I view it as a weaker, non-terminal (Disciple is often used non-terminally) Disciple with an "out" option, gaining Treasures/Nights.
But I think Barge's flexibility is usually only relevant when you are over-building your deck, and you should have a compelling reason to do so in the first place. In most other cases it's a Smithy with +buy and in general, you want such a card. But sources of +3 cards and +1 buy are both pretty abundant nowadays and often you'll find a better deal in a kingdom.
I am not so sure. The increase of consistency that duration draw provides can situationally be stronger than the card potentially missing a shuffle. So you might sometimes play Barge outside of "have already drawn my deck" or "have already reached my payload target" situations.
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Hot takes without playing any preview games:
Snowy Village: Looks good, isn't good. Making cantrips and other +1 Action cards terminal will hurt too much. Those non-terminal actions are often the glue that makes engines work. Functions best if you can play it late in your turn, which makes it harder for your deck to go off. However, the fact it comes with a +1 Buy means you'll likely pick it up at some point. Probably average.
Sheepdog: Busted in the right setup, not great otherwise. Kinda like Faithful Hound I guess.
Animal Fair: Man I have no idea. This seems pretty good in cases where you have actions that aren't good anymore, like Moneylender. I foresee this card creating many new 3-pile puzzles where emptying a pile mid-turn gets you enough buys to 3 pile. You don't want to actually pay $7 for this if you can help it, but hey, those +Buys, you never know.
Kiln: Seems great. You get this early, you start by gaining cantrips and Villages, then you can gain draw cards once you have the actions to play Kiln then +Cards, then you get treasure gains late if you want them. I think this will compare slightly worse than Haggler, but not by much. Con: need the card in your deck to gain a copy, instead of buying a more expensive card, takes a bit longer to set up. Pro: gaining immediately opens up reshuffle tricks, gain is optional.
Barge: I also have high hopes for this card. The base rate of +3 Cards +1 Buy for $5 is already a card I'm interested in buying. The option to set up duration draw on top of that makes this go up a lot for me. It's not Wharf tier or top-10 tier, but it's going to be better than Den of Sin and Haunted Woods for sure. This is not a card where you only play it as Duration when you've drawn your deck. This is card where you play it as Duration when you are almost out of actions for the turn, or don't want to trigger a bad reshuffle - both those scenarios are reasonably common and the reliability sounds pretty good to me.
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Animal Fair: Man I have no idea. This seems pretty good in cases where you have actions that aren't good anymore, like Moneylender. I foresee this card creating many new 3-pile puzzles where emptying a pile mid-turn gets you enough buys to 3 pile. You don't want to actually pay $7 for this if you can help it, but hey, those +Buys, you never know.
The other 3 pile puzzle to watch out for with Animal Farm is emptying the Animal Farm pile itself by trashing unused action cards in your hand on your last turn. If you've got the excess buys and a big hand of Actions, you can burn through the pile surprisingly quick, without needing to spend any $.
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So excited to have previews of a new expansion. When these happen, it is always a highlight of my year.
I showed my wife the cards and she really liked the sheepdog picture.
I really love how these take old concepts and add a nice little twist to them to keep you thinking and make you possibly reevaluate the normal choices you would make on a board.
Thanks again, Donald. This is a fantastic game!
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So kiln does not interact with wish...is that because it is not in the supply or (the lose track rule)?
it's because wishes are not in the supply
I am trying to understand why Wish won't work. Kiln says you gain a copy of the next card that you play that turn. It doesn't say anything about that card having to be from the supply or having to remain in the play area. So if you play Wish, even though it leaves the play area to go back to its pile, doesn't it still count as having been played after Kiln, and therefore you would be able to gain a new Wish?
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Whenever you're instructed to gain a card, the instruction means "gain from the supply" unless otherwise specified, or unless it tells you to gain a specific card that's never in the supply.
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So kiln does not interact with wish...is that because it is not in the supply or (the lose track rule)?
it's because wishes are not in the supply
I am trying to understand why Wish won't work. Kiln says you gain a copy of the next card that you play that turn. It doesn't say anything about that card having to be from the supply or having to remain in the play area. So if you play Wish, even though it leaves the play area to go back to its pile, doesn't it still count as having been played after Kiln, and therefore you would be able to gain a new Wish?
Any time a card tells you to gain a card, it automatically means from the supply, unless it is telling you to gain it from a specific place (like "from the Wish pile", or if it is telling you to gain a specifically named card (as of the recent errata, simply "Gain a Wish" would work because it names "Wish" specifically". But for any other instruction to gain a card, the card you gain must be in the supply.
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So kiln does not interact with wish...is that because it is not in the supply or (the lose track rule)?
it's because wishes are not in the supply
I am trying to understand why Wish won't work. Kiln says you gain a copy of the next card that you play that turn. It doesn't say anything about that card having to be from the supply or having to remain in the play area. So if you play Wish, even though it leaves the play area to go back to its pile, doesn't it still count as having been played after Kiln, and therefore you would be able to gain a new Wish?
Any time a card tells you to gain a card, it automatically means from the supply, unless it is telling you to gain it from a specific place (like "from the Wish pile", or if it is telling you to gain a specifically named card (as of the recent errata, simply "Gain a Wish" would work because it names "Wish" specifically". But for any other instruction to gain a card, the card you gain must be in the supply.
It's actually slightly trickier; "gain a Duchy" on Count won't gain a Duchy you left in the box because you only had 2 players. But yes. By default you only gain from the Supply, for Workshop etc.; cards that specifically gain non-supply cards can gain them, even by just saying "gain a Wish."
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So kiln does not interact with wish...is that because it is not in the supply or (the lose track rule)?
it's because wishes are not in the supply
I am trying to understand why Wish won't work. Kiln says you gain a copy of the next card that you play that turn. It doesn't say anything about that card having to be from the supply or having to remain in the play area. So if you play Wish, even though it leaves the play area to go back to its pile, doesn't it still count as having been played after Kiln, and therefore you would be able to gain a new Wish?
Any time a card tells you to gain a card, it automatically means from the supply, unless it is telling you to gain it from a specific place (like "from the Wish pile", or if it is telling you to gain a specifically named card (as of the recent errata, simply "Gain a Wish" would work because it names "Wish" specifically". But for any other instruction to gain a card, the card you gain must be in the supply.
It's actually slightly trickier; "gain a Duchy" on Count won't gain a Duchy you left in the box because you only had 2 players. But yes. By default you only gain from the Supply, for Workshop etc.; cards that specifically gain non-supply cards can gain them, even by just saying "gain a Wish."
"Gain a card from the box" should appear on a card somewhere
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So kiln does not interact with wish...is that because it is not in the supply or (the lose track rule)?
it's because wishes are not in the supply
I am trying to understand why Wish won't work. Kiln says you gain a copy of the next card that you play that turn. It doesn't say anything about that card having to be from the supply or having to remain in the play area. So if you play Wish, even though it leaves the play area to go back to its pile, doesn't it still count as having been played after Kiln, and therefore you would be able to gain a new Wish?
Any time a card tells you to gain a card, it automatically means from the supply, unless it is telling you to gain it from a specific place (like "from the Wish pile", or if it is telling you to gain a specifically named card (as of the recent errata, simply "Gain a Wish" would work because it names "Wish" specifically". But for any other instruction to gain a card, the card you gain must be in the supply.
It's actually slightly trickier; "gain a Duchy" on Count won't gain a Duchy you left in the box because you only had 2 players. But yes. By default you only gain from the Supply, for Workshop etc.; cards that specifically gain non-supply cards can gain them, even by just saying "gain a Wish."
"Gain a card from the box" should appear on a card somewhere
I know this isn't exactly what you mean, but Black Market is kind of close to that - you place random cards from all your boxes into a pile, which you can then gain cards from during the game.
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d plays a Throne Room.
d plays a Kiln.
d gets +$2.
d plays a Kiln again.
d gains a Kiln.
d reacts with a Sheepdog.
d plays a Sheepdog.
d draws a Sentry and a Kiln.
d gets +$2.
I wasn't prompted as to whether I want to gain a Sheepdog. Should I have been?
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So kiln does not interact with wish...is that because it is not in the supply or (the lose track rule)?
it's because wishes are not in the supply
I am trying to understand why Wish won't work. Kiln says you gain a copy of the next card that you play that turn. It doesn't say anything about that card having to be from the supply or having to remain in the play area. So if you play Wish, even though it leaves the play area to go back to its pile, doesn't it still count as having been played after Kiln, and therefore you would be able to gain a new Wish?
Any time a card tells you to gain a card, it automatically means from the supply, unless it is telling you to gain it from a specific place (like "from the Wish pile", or if it is telling you to gain a specifically named card (as of the recent errata, simply "Gain a Wish" would work because it names "Wish" specifically". But for any other instruction to gain a card, the card you gain must be in the supply.
It's actually slightly trickier; "gain a Duchy" on Count won't gain a Duchy you left in the box because you only had 2 players. But yes. By default you only gain from the Supply, for Workshop etc.; cards that specifically gain non-supply cards can gain them, even by just saying "gain a Wish."
Thank you for all of the responses. I appreciate the clarification about gaining.
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I wasn't prompted as to whether I want to gain a Sheepdog. Should I have been?
That's a bug indeed - I have reported it.
Edit: of course that's the intended behavior because you haven't executed the instructions of the second Kiln play yet.
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d plays a Throne Room.
d plays a Kiln.
d gets +$2.
d plays a Kiln again.
d gains a Kiln.
d reacts with a Sheepdog.
d plays a Sheepdog.
d draws a Sentry and a Kiln.
d gets +$2.
I wasn't prompted as to whether I want to gain a Sheepdog. Should I have been?
The second play of Kiln hasn't done anything yet - it hasn't given you +$2, and hasn't set in motion "the next time you play a card..." Gaining Kiln was "first" and that's before any of the text. So, you should not have been asked if you wanted a Sheepdog.
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d plays a Throne Room.
d plays a Kiln.
d gets +$2.
d plays a Kiln again.
d gains a Kiln.
d reacts with a Sheepdog.
d plays a Sheepdog.
d draws a Sentry and a Kiln.
d gets +$2.
I wasn't prompted as to whether I want to gain a Sheepdog. Should I have been?
The second play of Kiln hasn't done anything yet - it hasn't given you +$2, and hasn't set in motion "the next time you play a card..." Gaining Kiln was "first" and that's before any of the text. So, you should not have been asked if you wanted a Sheepdog.
Yeah this is just like the Priest Sewers thing, right?
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Yeah this is just like the Priest Sewers thing, right?
I hope not.
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So, I'm trying out Snowy Village on Dominion Online, in a kingdom that uses villagers, and when I play it, it asks me if I want to "use Villagers while you can". So, apparently you get the option of using villagers immediately after playing it. I'm guessing that will be in the FAQ for the card?
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Yeah this is just like the Priest Sewers thing, right?
I hope not.
I think it was more of a rules comparison than a power comparison.
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"use Villagers while you can"
I would have expected that one could use Villagers after playing Snowy Village. To no effect.
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"use Villagers while you can"
I would have expected that one could use Villagers after playing Snowy Village. To no effect.
That's what I would've expected too, but it allowed me to convert villagers into actions right away
m plays a Snowy Village.
m draws a Copper.
m gets +4 Actions.
m gets +1 Buy.
m gets +3 Actions.
That +3 Actions there was from villagers, so after that I had 7 Actions (I didn't need that many, I was just experimenting to see how it would work). I can't imagine that's a glitch, since the option to use villagers would've had to be programmed in, so apparently you get to redeem villagers before the "ignore any more +Actions" takes effect
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Can't wait to play the Kiln/Rats combo! Fill your deck up with rats even faster!
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Just realized Villa would interact weirdly with Snowy Village. If you bought it after having used up all your actions, it would still go into your hand, and you'd still return to your Action phase, but you'd enter that phase with 0 actions!
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Just realized Villa would interact weirdly with Snowy Village. If you bought it after having used up all your actions, it would still go into your hand, and you'd still return to your Action phase, but you'd enter that phase with 0 actions!
So then you trash it to buy an animal fair.
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In a bot game, I tried to Throne a Barge. I used the first to gain 3 cards and a Buy on this turn, and the second to gain 3 Cards and a Buy on the next turn. Got the 3 cards and a Buy on the current turn, but not on the next turn. Working as intended? If so, how do you figure?
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In a bot game, I tried to Throne a Barge. I used the first to gain 3 cards and a Buy on this turn, and the second to gain 3 Cards and a Buy on the next turn. Got the 3 cards and a Buy on the current turn, but not on the next turn. Working as intended? If so, how do you figure?
Definitely sounds like a bug. You should be able to make a different choice with each play, so a Throned Barge definitely should let you get +3 Cards +1 Buy on both your current turn and your next turn (or +6 Cards +2 Buys on the current turn or +6 Cards +2 Buys on the next turn for that matter, depending on your choices). Did the server discard your Barge on the turn you played it on?
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In a bot game, I tried to Throne a Barge. I used the first to gain 3 cards and a Buy on this turn, and the second to gain 3 Cards and a Buy on the next turn. Got the 3 cards and a Buy on the current turn, but not on the next turn. Working as intended? If so, how do you figure?
Definitely sounds like a bug. You should be able to make a different choice with each play, so a Throned Barge definitely should let you get +3 Cards +1 Buy on both your current turn and your next turn (or +6 Cards +2 Buys on the current turn or +6 Cards +2 Buys on the next turn for that matter, depending on your choices). Did the server discard your Barge on the turn you played it on?
To be honest, I forgot to look. I'll peek next time I try it.
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Ways to play more than four actions after Snowy Village: Throne Room (and most variants), Conclave, Imp, Herald, Golem, Scepter, Innovation, gain a card with Sheepdog in hand...
PS: I also love the expansion symbol.
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In a bot game, I tried to Throne a Barge. I used the first to gain 3 cards and a Buy on this turn, and the second to gain 3 Cards and a Buy on the next turn. Got the 3 cards and a Buy on the current turn, but not on the next turn. Working as intended? If so, how do you figure?
This is something that works correctly in the client. (Throne Room stays out with Barge and you draw 3 cards at the start of next turn). The only thing kind of missing is the explanation (Barge) in the log at the start of your next turn. So you might have missed in the log that you drew 3 cards because of Barge.
PS: I should have trusted the client on the Throne Room+Kiln thing as well, or at least give it a bit more of a thought late at night :-[
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So, I'm trying out Snowy Village on Dominion Online, in a kingdom that uses villagers, and when I play it, it asks me if I want to "use Villagers while you can". So, apparently you get the option of using villagers immediately after playing it. I'm guessing that will be in the FAQ for the card?
You can convert Villagers at any point in your Action phase, which includes between drawing the card for Snowy Village and then having +Actions turned off. This specific question isn't in the FAQ.
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Yeah this is just like the Priest Sewers thing, right?
I hope not.
I think it was more of a rules comparison than a power comparison.
I meant it as a "how many people ask about this during previews week" comparison.
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So, I'm trying out Snowy Village on Dominion Online, in a kingdom that uses villagers, and when I play it, it asks me if I want to "use Villagers while you can". So, apparently you get the option of using villagers immediately after playing it. I'm guessing that will be in the FAQ for the card?
You can convert Villagers at any point in your Action phase, which includes between drawing the card for Snowy Village and then having +Actions turned off. This specific question isn't in the FAQ.
Huh. So if you have a ton of Villagers due to Recruiter or Acting Troupe, than you can work around Snowy Village's Action denial?
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You can convert Villagers at any point in your Action phase, which includes between drawing the card for Snowy Village and then having +Actions turned off. This specific question isn't in the FAQ.
Huh. So if you have a ton of Villagers due to Recruiter or Acting Troupe, than you can work around Snowy Village's Action denial?
Only by converting them before Snowy Village turns off +Actions, i.e. you'd need to know (or guess) at that stage how many more Actions you're going to want to play during your turn. After Snowy Village has turned off +Actions you're still free to convert your Villagers, but you won't get any +Actions for them!
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You can convert Villagers at any point in your Action phase, which includes between drawing the card for Snowy Village and then having +Actions turned off. This specific question isn't in the FAQ.
Huh. So if you have a ton of Villagers due to Recruiter or Acting Troupe, than you can work around Snowy Village's Action denial?
Only by converting them before Snowy Village turns off +Actions, i.e. you'd need to know (or guess) at that stage how many more Actions you're going to want to play during your turn. After Snowy Village has turned off +Actions you're still free to convert your Villagers, but you won't get any +Actions for them!
True. It can be hard to predict that without knowledge of exactly how many terminals you now have in your deck. Still a nice little trick though.
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The question about Villagers by Snowy Village is a way to mitigate the fact that IRL it's easy to say "I'm converting Villagers right now during resolution of card X" (which is allowed by the rules, if you are in your Action phase), while it is incredibly hard to to fit that ability into an online implementation that was designed to ask you at each step what you want to do.
So Stef tried to identify the cases where it really matters that you can do it during the resolution of the card's effect, and Snowy Village is one such case. One might argue that you could convert Villagers online using the Villagers mat just before you play Snowy Village, but that has 2 problems:
1) You might get Snowy Village as a "surprise play" from cards like Vassal, Herald or Golem, and
2) You actually draw a card with Snowy Village, so your evaluation of the situation may have changed.
And the question about converting Villagers happens right before the effect to ignore +Actions is excecuted. Since that isn't logged and nothing 'physical' happens, it's easy to assume the question comes up after Snowy Village has resolved.
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Yeah this is just like the Priest Sewers thing, right?
I hope not.
Hmm, what do you mean? If you have Sewers and play Priest, you trash a card from your hand, which triggers trashing another card from Sewers. Multiple people thought there was a bug because they didn't get +(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/3/3d/Coin2.png/16px-Coin2.png) when they trashed the Sewers card. But the reason you don't get the +(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/3/3d/Coin2.png/16px-Coin2.png) is that Priest hasn't gotten to that part of its text yet; the rest of turn ability hasn't started.
Similarly here, you have played the second Kiln, but you haven't yet executed the instructions on the Kiln, so its "next time you play a card" ability hasn't started yet.
There's a difference in that with Priest, some of the text had been executed but not all of it, and with Kiln none of it had been yet. But they're still both situations where you have played a card, but because things were interrupted, the cards ability hadn't started to apply yet.
*Edit* Never mind, just saw your other reply. I was worried that you mean you didn't think they were similar in interaction, in which case I was misunderstanding something.
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In a bot game, I tried to Throne a Barge.
Oooh, um.
If you Throne a Barge and choose "now" both times, the Throne and Barge get discarded during clean-up.
If you Throne a Barge and choose "next turn" both times, the Throne and Barge stay out until next turn.
If you Throne a Barge and choose "now" once, "next turn" once... the Barge stays out but the Throne doesn't? Or what?
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In a bot game, I tried to Throne a Barge.
Oooh, um.
If you Throne a Barge and choose "now" both times, the Throne and Barge get discarded during clean-up.
If you Throne a Barge and choose "next turn" both times, the Throne and Barge stay out until next turn.
If you Throne a Barge and choose "now" once, "next turn" once... the Barge stays out but the Throne doesn't? Or what?
I assume it stays out, because think about King's Court:
If you KC a Barge and choose "now" twice, "next turn" once...
If you KC a Barge and choose "now" once, "next turn" twice*...
If you KC a Barge and choose "now" none, "next turn" thrice...
* pull out a TR from your box, and it stays out; when you discard it return it to the box. 8)
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If you Throne a Barge and choose "now" once, "next turn" once... the Barge stays out but the Throne doesn't? Or what?
Throne stays out until Barge goes away. That's just the general rule.
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Another previously (before Menagerie) existing way for a card to be discarded during another player's turn is if you call Duplicate during such a turn. Doesn't happen often, but sometimes opponent's Swindler hits a card with a cost with no bad card at that cost, and then you can Duplicate what your opponent makes you gain. The Duplicate will then be discarded at the end of your opponent's turn.
This used to be incorrect online, but has been corrected because it can now happen much more often with Sheepdog.
With Caravan Guard, it can also happen with Royal Carriage or (uselessly I think) Coin of the Realm.
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d plays a Throne Room.
d plays a Kiln.
d gets +$2.
d plays a Kiln again.
d gains a Kiln.
d reacts with a Sheepdog.
d plays a Sheepdog.
d draws a Sentry and a Kiln.
d gets +$2.
Wow, I'm thinking with Innovation this would be pretty complicated.
Play Throne Room.
Play Kiln.
Get +$2.
Set up later effect to optionally gain next played card.
Play Kiln again.
Gain Kiln.
Play Sheepdog.
Draw 2 cards.
Play Kiln via Innovation.
Get +$2.
Set up later effect to optionally gain next played card.
Get +$2.
Set up later effect to optionally gain next played card.
Play Smithy
Gain Smithy.
Gain Smithy.
Draw 3 cards.
OR:
Play Throne Room.
Play Kiln.
Get +$2.
Set up later effect to optionally gain next played card.
Play Kiln again.
Gain Kiln.
Play Kiln via Innovation.
Get +$2.
Set up later effect to optionally gain next played card.
Play Sheepdog.
Gain Sheepdog.
Draw 2 cards.
Get +$2.
Set up later effect to optionally gain next played card.
Play Smithy
Gain Smithy.
Draw 3 cards.
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Animal Fair seems to break how buying works and how it's described in the rulebook:
Then, you can buy one card, costing as much as you have or less. ... You buy a card by choosing it from the Supply, and then "gaining" it.
With Animal Fair you can now choose a card that costs more than you have. Which of the following is the case?
1) The rulebook is inaccurate.
2) The rule for buying is now changed.
3) Animal Fair has some kind of special unstated rule attached which means you're allowed to choose it when buying even if you can't afford it.
In case 1 or 2, what could be the rule? "Buying means choosing any card, then trying to pay for it, then successfully buying it if you succeeded in paying for it"? Note that we can't just define "successful buying" as "leading to gaining" because of when-buy abilities. (If you could buy any card and then fail to gain it if you can't afford it, then you could buy cards you can't afford just for Goons-points.) The problem is that you can't define buying as "trying to buy". I mean, if "buying" mean choosing a card and trying to pay for it, then by definition you did already buy it, whether you could afford it or not.
I guess it would rather have to be: "In you Buy phase you can choose any card, then try to pay for it, then if you successfully paid for it, you buy the card." Wait, this rule actually makes Animal Fair not work!
When it comes to alternative 3, I'm not going to try to guess.
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Animal Fair has two costs, 7 coins; or 0 coins and trash an action card, and you get to pick the one you want to pay.
This still feels consistent with the rules excerpt you posted. If you cant afford either cost, you dont get to spend your buy on it.
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Animal Fair has two costs, 7 coins; or 0 coins and trash an action card, and you get to pick the one you want to pay.
This still feels consistent with the rules excerpt you posted. If you cant afford either cost, you dont get to spend your buy on it.
The card says that trashing is instead of paying the cost, which means it triggers when you would pay for it. As Donald said, "at the point at which you'd pay your $7, you can trash an Action from your hand instead".
But maybe you're right, that the card's text and Donald's description is not really technically what happens. Maybe the card doesn't trigger at all, but just has an alternate cost (like Debt). Like you said, the alternate cost is actually $0 and trash an Action card. That would mean that without $7 but with an Action card to trash, you can afford it.
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In case not mentioned yet for the devs:
With $5 and 2buys and an action in hand, I clicked buy on Animal Fair and it spent my 2 coffers to cover the 7 and THEN gave me the trash-an-action option. I worked around it by buying a $5cost first but this will be a rough bug when you only want to do the trade.
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Animal Fair seems to break how buying works and how it's described in the rulebook:
Then, you can buy one card, costing as much as you have or less. ... You buy a card by choosing it from the Supply, and then "gaining" it.
With Animal Fair you can now choose card that costs more than you have. Which of the following is the case?
1) The rulebook is inaccurate.
2) The rule for buying is now changed.
3) Animal Fair has some kind of special unstated rule attached which means you're allowed to choose it when buying even if you can't afford it.
In case 1 or 2, what could be the rule? "Buying means choosing any card, then trying to pay for it, then successfully buying it if you succeeded in paying for it"? Note that we can't just define "successful buying" as "leading to gaining" because of when-buy abilities. (If you could buy any card and then fail to gain it if you can't afford it, then you could buy cards you can't afford just for Goons-points.) The problem is that you can't define buying as "trying to buy". I mean, if "buying" mean choosing a card and trying to pay for it, then by definition you did already buy it, whether you could afford it or not.
I guess it would rather have to be: "In you Buy phase you can choose any card, then try to pay for it, then if you successfully paid for it, you buy the card." Wait, this rule actually makes Animal Fair not work!
When it comes to alternative 3, I'm not going to try to guess.
Cards are allowed to be exceptions to the rules. There are lots of main set rules that cards overturn. You can't look through your discard pile; how can Hermit possibly work? And so on and on. None of that makes the rulebook inaccurate.
I don't want to get mired in rules discussions when the rulebook isn't out yet, but it will all work out somehow. Yes, it has an alternate cost of trashing an Action card.
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In case not mentioned yet for the devs:
With $5 and 2buys and an action in hand, I clicked buy on Animal Fair and it spent my 2 coffers to cover the 7 and THEN gave me the trash-an-action option. I worked around it by buying a $5cost first but this will be a rough bug when you only want to do the trade.
Stef knows about this. It's a bug with autobuy; for now you can turn autobuy off.
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Cards are allowed to be exceptions to the rules. There are lots of main set rules that cards overturn. You can't look through your discard pile; how can Hermit possibly work? And so on and on. None of that makes the rulebook inaccurate.
I don't want to get mired in rules discussions when the rulebook isn't out yet, but it will all work out somehow. Yes, it has an alternate cost of trashing an Action card.
Yeah, I know cards can be exceptions, that was my alternative 3. But it has also happened that the way we understood a particular rule needed to be updated. But thanks, now I know that it's the card. And it sounds like you're saying that it has an alternate cost rather than triggering when you're about to pay for it.
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Animal Fair works rather nicely with remodelers, especially if you have sources of extra buys to make it easier to trash cheap actions for Animal Fair. I just played a game with Upgrade and Animal Fair. Animal Fair's price makes it a natural target for Upgrade to turn it into a Province
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Animal Fair works rather nicely with remodelers, ... Animal Fair's price makes it a natural target for Upgrade to turn it into a Province
Or Develop into a Province and a Gold :)
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In case not mentioned yet for the devs:
With $5 and 2buys and an action in hand, I clicked buy on Animal Fair and it spent my 2 coffers to cover the 7 and THEN gave me the trash-an-action option. I worked around it by buying a $5cost first but this will be a rough bug when you only want to do the trade.
Thanks for the report, Mike!
Somebody else reported on the problem in discord (I think they mentioned it was from a game of yours), and it is already fixed.
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I was thinking you'd pretty much never want to use Sheepdog's reaction during your buy phase, unless perhaps you knew that one of the top two cards was a Night card you wanted to use that turn, but then I realized that it would still count as an Action in play, so if Peddler's in the game, you might still want to use it during your buy phase if you have at least two buys (or one of your Treasure cards is something like Supplies that gains you a card) to bring the cost of Peddler down $2. It could also be useful if the card you bought was Villa, since you can actually use whatever you draw that way on either your second action or your second buy phase as the case may be
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I was thinking you'd pretty much never want to use Sheepdog's reaction during your buy phase, unless perhaps you knew that one of the top two cards was a Night card you wanted to use that turn, but then I realized that it would still count as an Action in play, so if Peddler's in the game, you might still want to use it during your buy phase if you have at least two buys (or one of your Treasure cards is something like Supplies that gains you a card) to bring the cost of Peddler down $2. It could also be useful if the card you bought was Villa, since you can actually use whatever you draw that way on either your second action or your second buy phase as the case may be
I think you usually want to use it... unless you know that the top 2 cards are actually good cards (better than the average card in your deck), then drawing 2 cards you can't use just means that instead you'll draw the next 2. Cycling on average is good; you'll get to play your newer cards sooner. It becomes worse after you start greening; but for most of the game just randomly discarding the top 2 cards of your deck (which is effectively what happens if you reveal Sheepdog when you buy) is a benefit.
Your Supplies example doesn't work, because you aren't allowed to play more treasures after you buy something.
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I was thinking you'd pretty much never want to use Sheepdog's reaction during your buy phase, unless perhaps you knew that one of the top two cards was a Night card you wanted to use that turn, but then I realized that it would still count as an Action in play, so if Peddler's in the game, you might still want to use it during your buy phase if you have at least two buys (or one of your Treasure cards is something like Supplies that gains you a card) to bring the cost of Peddler down $2. It could also be useful if the card you bought was Villa, since you can actually use whatever you draw that way on either your second action or your second buy phase as the case may be
I think you usually want to use it... unless you know that the top 2 cards are actually good cards (better than the average card in your deck), then drawing 2 cards you can't use just means that instead you'll draw the next 2. Cycling on average is good; you'll get to play your newer cards sooner. It becomes worse after you start greening; but for most of the game just randomly discarding the top 2 cards of your deck (which is effectively what happens if you reveal Sheepdog when you buy) is a benefit.
Your Supplies example doesn't work, because you aren't allowed to play more treasures after you buy something.
Supplies gains a horse before you buy anything, so his example works.
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I was thinking you'd pretty much never want to use Sheepdog's reaction during your buy phase, unless perhaps you knew that one of the top two cards was a Night card you wanted to use that turn, but then I realized that it would still count as an Action in play, so if Peddler's in the game, you might still want to use it during your buy phase if you have at least two buys (or one of your Treasure cards is something like Supplies that gains you a card) to bring the cost of Peddler down $2. It could also be useful if the card you bought was Villa, since you can actually use whatever you draw that way on either your second action or your second buy phase as the case may be
I think you usually want to use it... unless you know that the top 2 cards are actually good cards (better than the average card in your deck), then drawing 2 cards you can't use just means that instead you'll draw the next 2. Cycling on average is good; you'll get to play your newer cards sooner. It becomes worse after you start greening; but for most of the game just randomly discarding the top 2 cards of your deck (which is effectively what happens if you reveal Sheepdog when you buy) is a benefit.
Your Supplies example doesn't work, because you aren't allowed to play more treasures after you buy something.
Supplies gains a horse before you buy anything, so his example works.
Exactly. Of course, the first of those two cards in that case is the Horse you just gained, so you lose the advantage of topdecking it
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When exactly is Sheepdog triggered? If I gain a card onto my deck (via, say, Watchtower), can I play Sheepdog to immediately draw it, or does the playing of Sheepdog occur before the card is gained there?
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The Sheepdog card does not look final. The font in the title looks a little odd. I hope, that this will be fixed in the release version.
Animal Fair should say “Action card costing at least $2” to avoid that you can trash Ruins (and for occasional reasons also Transmute).
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When exactly is Sheepdog triggered? If I gain a card onto my deck (via, say, Watchtower), can I play Sheepdog to immediately draw it, or does the playing of Sheepdog occur before the card is gained there?
The online implementation seems to favor the first interpretation. I experimented with playing Supplies and then using the Sheepdog reaction, and it caused me to draw the Horse that Supplies gave me. So, assuming that's implemented correctly, then Sheepdog would draw your topdecked card
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When exactly is Sheepdog triggered? If I gain a card onto my deck (via, say, Watchtower), can I play Sheepdog to immediately draw it, or does the playing of Sheepdog occur before the card is gained there?
Sheepdog triggers at exactly the moment you gain the card, like Watchtower or Duplicate did before. If you gain a card onto your deck, say with Supplies, then it will be there when you play Sheepdog, so you'll draw it.
If you gain a card to your discard pile and have both Sheepdog and Watchtower in hand, you can decide what you want to do. You can play Sheepdog first, and move the card to your deck afterwards with Watchtower. Or you can move it with Watchtower first and play Sheepdog second, and then you'll draw the card, as in the above example.
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The Sheepdog card does not look final. The font in the title looks a little odd. I hope, that this will be fixed in the release version.
Animal Fair should say “Action card costing at least $2” to avoid that you can trash Ruins (and for occasional reasons also Transmute).
On Sheepdog the title does look a bit "thin", but maybe that is just the lesser contrast to the relatively dark blue background.
The time to actually change the behavior of cards (Animal Fair) is long over, they are being printed already (or at least very near that point).
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When exactly is Sheepdog triggered? If I gain a card onto my deck (via, say, Watchtower), can I play Sheepdog to immediately draw it, or does the playing of Sheepdog occur before the card is gained there?
When-gain always happens after you gain, so you can draw it.
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When exactly is Sheepdog triggered? If I gain a card onto my deck (via, say, Watchtower), can I play Sheepdog to immediately draw it, or does the playing of Sheepdog occur before the card is gained there?
When-gain always happens after you gain, so you can draw it.
"Visiting" comes into play here, right? If you gain a card with Summon (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Summon), you would reveal Sheepdog (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Sheepdog) before you set that card aside, right? Which would especially matter if drawing with Sheepdog caused you to reshuffle. I can't remember what cards other than Summon deal with "visiting".
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When exactly is Sheepdog triggered? If I gain a card onto my deck (via, say, Watchtower), can I play Sheepdog to immediately draw it, or does the playing of Sheepdog occur before the card is gained there?
You gain the card, putting it wherever it goes, then play Sheepdog.
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The Sheepdog card does not look final. The font in the title looks a little odd. I hope, that this will be fixed in the release version.
Animal Fair should say “Action card costing at least $2” to avoid that you can trash Ruins (and for occasional reasons also Transmute).
Those images are from the sheets the printer gives us to proofread. They are shrunk, which can make things look slightly off, but that's it. The cards have been printed and are on the boat; nothing's changing them now.
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I keep thinking "Animal Farm" instead of "Animal Fair" when I use the card
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"Visiting" comes into play here, right? If you gain a card with Summon (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Summon), you would reveal Sheepdog (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Sheepdog) before you set that card aside, right? Which would especially matter if drawing with Sheepdog caused you to reshuffle. I can't remember what cards other than Summon deal with "visiting".
Yes, that's right. I made this overview: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20064.msg821695#msg821695
It's only Summon and Replace (category 4b).
This made me realize that I needed to split category 2b. Sheepdog is actually the first card that doesn't trigger on itself being gained, that may happen to move a gained card (without tracking the card). Previously only Inn, Blessed Village and Cursed Village could do that, but they did it when you gained them.
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"Visiting" comes into play here, right? If you gain a card with Summon (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Summon), you would reveal Sheepdog (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Sheepdog) before you set that card aside, right? Which would especially matter if drawing with Sheepdog caused you to reshuffle. I can't remember what cards other than Summon deal with "visiting".
Yes, that's right. I made this overview: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20064.msg821695#msg821695
It's only Summon and Replace (category 4b).
This made me realize that I needed to split category 2b. Sheepdog is actually the first card that doesn't trigger on itself being gained, that may happen to move a gained card (without tracking the card). Previously only Inn, Blessed Village and Cursed Village could do that, but they did it when you gained them.
More than Summon and Replace. Also Royal Seal and Travelling Fair, at least. Thread: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=15464.msg601194#msg601194
*Edit* Ah, there’s a difference... because with those examples; it’s just another when-gain ability that you could order before or after Sheepdog. So Summon and Replace would be the only 2 that force Sheepdog to be first, then?
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More than Summon and Replace. Also Royal Seal and Travelling Fair, at least. Thread: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=15464.msg601194#msg601194
*Edit* Ah, there’s a difference... because with those examples; it’s just another when-gain ability that you could order before or after Sheepdog. So Summon and Replace would be the only 2 that force Sheepdog to be first, then?
Right, I thought your question was more specific than it was. Yes, with Summon and Replace you have to use Sheepdog right after gaining, then continue with Summon/Replace, and then the gained card could have been moved. With the other cards (which I call "WATCHTOWERS" in the post I linked to), you could use the "WATCHTOWER" first. See interactions 5 and 11.
"WATCHTOWERS" are: Cargo Ship, Changeling, Innovation, Royal Seal, Tracker, Travelling Fair, Villa (itself), Watchtower.
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More than Summon and Replace. Also Royal Seal and Travelling Fair, at least. Thread: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=15464.msg601194#msg601194
*Edit* Ah, there’s a difference... because with those examples; it’s just another when-gain ability that you could order before or after Sheepdog. So Summon and Replace would be the only 2 that force Sheepdog to be first, then?
Right, I thought your question was more specific than it was. Yes, with Summon and Replace you have to use Sheepdog right after gaining, then continue with Summon/Replace, and then the gained card could have been moved. With the other cards (which I call "WATCHTOWERS" in the post I linked to), you could use the "WATCHTOWER" first. See interactions 5 and 11.
"WATCHTOWERS" are: Cargo Ship, Changeling, Innovation, Royal Seal, Tracker, Travelling Fair, Villa (itself), Watchtower.
Yeah I just missed the difference at first glance, because both categories were talked about in the "Visiting" thread.
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Just realized in a game I was playing that had Scepter and Kiln - you can use scepter on kiln to gain two different cards (Throne Room, can also let you gain two cards, but one of them would be Kiln itself)! Play Kiln and then some other card, gaining a copy of that, and then in your buy phase, play Scepter to replay Scepter, and then you can gain a copy of whatever your next card is. Normally, of course, that would be a Treasure card, but it could also potentially be a Night card. You could also use Villa's on-buy effect to Kiln another Action card
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Cards are allowed to be exceptions to the rules. There are lots of main set rules that cards overturn. You can't look through your discard pile; how can Hermit possibly work? And so on and on. None of that makes the rulebook inaccurate.
I don't want to get mired in rules discussions when the rulebook isn't out yet, but it will all work out somehow. Yes, it has an alternate cost of trashing an Action card.
Yeah, I know cards can be exceptions, that was my alternative 3. But it has also happened that the way we understood a particular rule needed to be updated. But thanks, now I know that it's the card. And it sounds like you're saying that it has an alternate cost rather than triggering when you're about to pay for it.
Wayfarer made me realize it's not that simple. An alternate cost means it applies to all Animal Fairs. What if you Swindler one, can you choose the alternate cost of "$0 and trash an Action card from your hand"? That wouldn't make any sense, so the alternate cost has to apply only when you buy it. It can't apply when you pay for it (like the card says), because that would mean you could never buy it for the alternate cost according to the rules (except if you have $7). So it has to be an alternate cost that you can choose when you choose which card to buy. So I guess it is some kind of trigger at a very weird time, "when you would buy a card" maybe.
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Cards are allowed to be exceptions to the rules. There are lots of main set rules that cards overturn. You can't look through your discard pile; how can Hermit possibly work? And so on and on. None of that makes the rulebook inaccurate.
I don't want to get mired in rules discussions when the rulebook isn't out yet, but it will all work out somehow. Yes, it has an alternate cost of trashing an Action card.
Yeah, I know cards can be exceptions, that was my alternative 3. But it has also happened that the way we understood a particular rule needed to be updated. But thanks, now I know that it's the card. And it sounds like you're saying that it has an alternate cost rather than triggering when you're about to pay for it.
Wayfarer made me realize it's not that simple. An alternate cost means it applies to all Animal Fairs. What if you Swindler one, can you choose the alternate cost of "$0 and trash an Action card from your hand"? That wouldn't make any sense, so the alternate cost has to apply only when you buy it. It can't apply when you pay for it (like the card says), because that would mean you could never buy it for the alternate cost according to the rules (except if you have $7). So it has to be an alternate cost that you can choose when you choose which card to buy. So I guess it is some kind of trigger at a very weird time, "when you would buy a card" maybe.
Wait ... what if you have two buys and you buy an Animal Fair by trashing a card ... does that mean that Wayfarer's cost is now also "trash an Action card from your hand"?
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Cards are allowed to be exceptions to the rules. There are lots of main set rules that cards overturn. You can't look through your discard pile; how can Hermit possibly work? And so on and on. None of that makes the rulebook inaccurate.
I don't want to get mired in rules discussions when the rulebook isn't out yet, but it will all work out somehow. Yes, it has an alternate cost of trashing an Action card.
Yeah, I know cards can be exceptions, that was my alternative 3. But it has also happened that the way we understood a particular rule needed to be updated. But thanks, now I know that it's the card. And it sounds like you're saying that it has an alternate cost rather than triggering when you're about to pay for it.
Wayfarer made me realize it's not that simple. An alternate cost means it applies to all Animal Fairs. What if you Swindler one, can you choose the alternate cost of "$0 and trash an Action card from your hand"? That wouldn't make any sense, so the alternate cost has to apply only when you buy it. It can't apply when you pay for it (like the card says), because that would mean you could never buy it for the alternate cost according to the rules (except if you have $7). So it has to be an alternate cost that you can choose when you choose which card to buy. So I guess it is some kind of trigger at a very weird time, "when you would buy a card" maybe.
Wait ... what if you have two buys and you buy an Animal Fair by trashing a card ... does that mean that Wayfarer's cost is now also "trash an Action card from your hand"?
I strongly suspect that the answer is no: wayfarer copies the cost of the last card you bought, and the cost of animal fair is 7$. The trashing a card thing is something you can do instead of paying its cost.
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I strongly suspect that the answer is no: wayfarer copies the cost of the last card you bought, and the cost of animal fair is 7$. The trashing a card thing is something you can do instead of paying its cost.
No, it has been established in this thread that it's an alternate cost, not something you do instead of paying the cost (although the card says so).
But it only makes sense if the alternate cost only applies for buying the Animal Fair. After you have bought it, it has the cost $7 again.
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I strongly suspect that the answer is no: wayfarer copies the cost of the last card you bought, and the cost of animal fair is 7$. The trashing a card thing is something you can do instead of paying its cost.
No, it has been established in this thread that it's an alternate cost, not something you do instead of paying the cost (although the card says so).
But it only makes sense if the alternate cost only applies for buying the Animal Fair. After you have bought it, it has the cost $7 again.
In fact the OP says this: "the alternate payment just applies when you're buying one".
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I strongly suspect that the answer is no: wayfarer copies the cost of the last card you bought, and the cost of animal fair is 7$. The trashing a card thing is something you can do instead of paying its cost.
Oh, good point
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In fact the OP says this: "the alternate payment just applies when you're buying one".
Oh. :-[
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How about discarding cards during another player's Clean up phase?
This already existed... call a Coin of the Realm right after playing Caravan Guard on an opponent's turn, or call Duplicate after gaining a card on an opponent's turn.
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How about discarding cards during another player's Clean up phase?
This already existed... call a Coin of the Realm right after playing Caravan Guard on an opponent's turn, or call Duplicate after gaining a card on an opponent's turn.
Yes. Somebody pointed that out earlier. It probably never happened in my IRL games, therefore it didn't occur to me.
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When will we get the 7* card symbol here: http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Category:Card_symbols (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Category:Card_symbols)?
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Be the change you want to see in the Wiki.
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Be the change you want to see in the Wiki.
I'd love to, but I'm old and not very good at stuff like this. I'll just wait for a more competent guy than me.
I'm positive we'll get the Menagerie set logo there, soon enough, and I guess they'll put this symbol up, as well.
Thanks for replying, though! :)
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When will we get the 7* card symbol here: http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Category:Card_symbols (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Category:Card_symbols)?
Oh wow I completely missed that there was a new cost symbol.. I was specifically looking for it too; at first I thought (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/c/cc/Coin10.png/16px-Coin10.png) was new, but eventually found King's Castle.
I'll get the new one added to the extension shortly after someone makes it available in the Wiki.
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Now that new symbols are brought up (and I would never have noticed this otherwise) ... this isn't new, but Capital has <$6> in its text, and Tax has both <$1> and <$2> in its text. Debt here only covers (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/f/f5/Debt3.png/18px-Debt3.png) - (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/2/21/Debt5.png/18px-Debt5.png) and (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/d/d4/Debt8.png/18px-Debt8.png). Bat and Imp both cost [$2*], while here it skips from (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/a/ae/Coin0star.png/16px-Coin0star.png) to (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/a/a9/Coin3star.png/16px-Coin3star.png).
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When will we get the 7* card symbol here: http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Category:Card_symbols (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Category:Card_symbols)?
TIL that the Cornucopia symbol is not a feather.
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When will we get the 7* card symbol here: http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Category:Card_symbols (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Category:Card_symbols)?
TIL that the Cornucopia symbol is not a feather.
Oh? What is it then?
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When will we get the 7* card symbol here: http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Category:Card_symbols (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Category:Card_symbols)?
TIL that the Cornucopia symbol is not a feather.
Oh? What is it then?
A cornucopia (https://duckduckgo.com/?q=cornucopia&t=canonical&iax=images&ia=images).
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When will we get the 7* card symbol here: http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Category:Card_symbols (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Category:Card_symbols)?
TIL that the Cornucopia symbol is not a feather.
Oh? What is it then?
A cornucopia (https://duckduckgo.com/?q=cornucopia&t=canonical&iax=images&ia=images).
Oh. I feel kind of stupid now.
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Now that new symbols are brought up (and I would never have noticed this otherwise) ... this isn't new, but Capital has (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/1/17/Debt6.png/18px-Debt6.png) in its text, and Tax has both (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/4/43/Debt1.png/18px-Debt1.png) and (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/c/c6/Debt2.png/18px-Debt2.png) in its text. Debt here only covers (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/f/f5/Debt3.png/18px-Debt3.png) - (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/2/21/Debt5.png/18px-Debt5.png) and (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/d/d4/Debt8.png/18px-Debt8.png). Bat and Imp both cost (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/0/00/Coin2star.png/16px-Coin2star.png), while here it skips from (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/a/ae/Coin0star.png/16px-Coin0star.png) to (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/a/a9/Coin3star.png/16px-Coin3star.png).
I must have only done ones that were actually used in costs; not thinking of other places they were used. No reason not to have them though. (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/9/98/Debt40.png/18px-Debt40.png) too. They'll be in the next update; thanks!
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Now that new symbols are brought up (and I would never have noticed this otherwise) ... this isn't new, but Capital has (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/1/17/Debt6.png/18px-Debt6.png) in its text, and Tax has both (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/4/43/Debt1.png/18px-Debt1.png) and (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/c/c6/Debt2.png/18px-Debt2.png) in its text. Debt here only covers (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/f/f5/Debt3.png/18px-Debt3.png) - (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/2/21/Debt5.png/18px-Debt5.png) and (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/d/d4/Debt8.png/18px-Debt8.png). Bat and Imp both cost (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/0/00/Coin2star.png/16px-Coin2star.png), while here it skips from (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/a/ae/Coin0star.png/16px-Coin0star.png) to (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/a/a9/Coin3star.png/16px-Coin3star.png).
I must have only done ones that were actually used in costs; not thinking of other places they were used. No reason not to have them though. (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/9/98/Debt40.png/18px-Debt40.png) too. They'll be in the next update; thanks!
40 debt is there, though:
http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/File:Debt40.png
But the Menagerie icon is missing, of course. :)
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Now that new symbols are brought up (and I would never have noticed this otherwise) ... this isn't new, but Capital has <$6> in its text, and Tax has both <$1> and <$2> in its text. Debt here only covers (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/f/f5/Debt3.png/18px-Debt3.png) - (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/2/21/Debt5.png/18px-Debt5.png) and (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/d/d4/Debt8.png/18px-Debt8.png). Bat and Imp both cost [$2*], while here it skips from (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/a/ae/Coin0star.png/16px-Coin0star.png) to (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/a/a9/Coin3star.png/16px-Coin3star.png).
They're all there, though:
http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/File:Debt6.png
http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/File:Debt1.png
http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/File:Debt2.png
http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/File:Coin2star.png
Am I missing something?
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When will we get the 7* card symbol here: http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Category:Card_symbols (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Category:Card_symbols)?
Oh wow I completely missed that there was a new cost symbol.. I was specifically looking for it too; at first I thought (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/c/cc/Coin10.png/16px-Coin10.png) was new, but eventually found King's Castle.
I'll get the new one added to the extension shortly after someone makes it available in the Wiki.
You've either just uploaded all of these (or someone else has done it), because now I found everything there, except for the Menagerie icon (even though I manually entered the likely URL for coin7star: http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/File:Coin7star.png and found the set icon here: http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/File:Menagerie_(expansion)_icon.png).
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When will we get the 7* card symbol here: http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Category:Card_symbols (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Category:Card_symbols)?
Oh wow I completely missed that there was a new cost symbol.. I was specifically looking for it too; at first I thought (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/c/cc/Coin10.png/16px-Coin10.png) was new, but eventually found King's Castle.
I'll get the new one added to the extension shortly after someone makes it available in the Wiki.
You've either just uploaded all of these (or someone else has done it), because now I found everything there, except for the Menagerie icon (even though I manually entered the likely URL for coin7star: http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/File:Coin7star.png and found the set icon here: http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/File:Menagerie_(expansion)_icon.png).
No, they were always there in the Wiki. They were just missing from my extension. They've been added in the latest version which is pending Google's approval.
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Thanks to whoever added the (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/f/fa/Coin7star.png/16px-Coin7star.png) icon to the wiki! It will be added to the extension as soon as Google approves the update.
I just noticed that (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/9/90/Debt4.png/18px-Debt4.png) and (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/d/d4/Debt8.png/18px-Debt8.png) icons are smaller than all of the other debt icons. (Specifically, the 18px version that my extension uses). It's barely noticeable when looking at each icon by itself, but quite noticeable when they're next to each other.
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/8/81/Debt.png/18px-Debt.png)(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/4/43/Debt1.png/18px-Debt1.png)(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/c/c6/Debt2.png/18px-Debt2.png)(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/f/f5/Debt3.png/18px-Debt3.png)(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/9/90/Debt4.png/18px-Debt4.png)(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/2/21/Debt5.png/18px-Debt5.png)(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/1/17/Debt6.png/18px-Debt6.png)(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/d/d4/Debt8.png/18px-Debt8.png)(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/9/98/Debt40.png/18px-Debt40.png)
Does whoever was awesome enough to add these new icons also want to fix/update the 4 and 8 debt icons to match the rest?