Dominion Strategy Forum

Dominion => Dominion General Discussion => Topic started by: Donald X. on January 07, 2020, 05:16:13 am

Title: Dominion: Menagerie
Post by: Donald X. on January 07, 2020, 05:16:13 am
The new expansion, Dominion: Menagerie, has been officially announced. Hey isn't that the name of a card?

Official page: http://riograndegames.com/Game/1350-Dominion-Menagerie

Functionality blurb: "This is the 13th expansion to Dominion. It has 400 cards, with 30 new Kingdom cards. There are Horses that save a draw for later, Exile mats that cards can be sent to and rescued from, and Ways that give Actions another option. Events return."

Edit: Also we currently expect it March 18.
Title: Re: Dominion: Menagerie
Post by: ephesos on January 07, 2020, 05:27:27 am
So we have +$ as a token, +Action as a token, and now, +Card as a token (I assume that's how Horses will work). Now we just need +Buy as a token to complete the vanilla set.

Title: Re: Dominion: Menagerie
Post by: MeNowDealWithIt on January 07, 2020, 05:41:47 am
So we have +$ as a token, +Action as a token, and now, +Card as a token (I assume that's how Horses will work). Now we just need +Buy as a token to complete the vanilla set.


And +VP as a token

oh... wait...
Title: Re: Dominion: Menagerie
Post by: Gamer3000 on January 07, 2020, 05:58:15 am
(http://riograndegames.com//inc/phpThumb-1.7.11/phpThumb.php?src=/uploads/Game/Preview-1_1350.jpeg&w=320)
Is there gonna be a squirrel card?
Title: Re: Dominion: Menagerie
Post by: Donald X. on January 07, 2020, 06:22:19 am
That image has the wrong color for the box. I reported that to Jay already.
Title: Re: Dominion: Menagerie
Post by: teamlyle on January 07, 2020, 09:55:14 am
At my old school a bunch of Dominion noobs wanted to make a set called "Dominion: Zoo." Little did they know that 4 years later...
Title: Re: Dominion: Menagerie
Post by: spineflu on January 07, 2020, 10:05:24 am
So we have +$ as a token, +Action as a token, and now, +Card as a token (I assume that's how Horses will work). Now we just need +Buy as a token to complete the vanilla set.

unless Horse is a kingdom card that goes to the tavern mat and can be called at the beginning of a turn for +draw

edit: i guess it could also be a non-supply card. that'd make sense, with other stuff awarding horses.
Title: Re: Dominion: Menagerie
Post by: Eran of Arcadia on January 07, 2020, 10:58:28 am
We already have the dog, goat and two rats mentioned by the flavor text, now I really just want a turtle.
Title: Re: Dominion: Menagerie
Post by: mxdata on January 07, 2020, 11:37:55 am
The Exile mat sounds interesting.  I'm guessing it's kinda like the Tavern mat from Adventures, except apparently not restricted to a certain type of card.  Presumably there's an Action card that says something like "Choose one: Send a card from your hand to the Exile mat or put a card from the Exile mat into your hand"?  So, sort of like Island except not permanent?  And I *really* want to know what this "Ways" thing is.  Can't wait to see the previews for the set!
Title: Re: Dominion: Menagerie
Post by: TheAgileBeast on January 07, 2020, 11:43:21 am
Exile mat sounds exciting. My guess is it's a way to get Saboteur-like cards to work. You can "trash" your opponents cards by sending them to the Exile, but the player always has the ability to get them back by doing certain things. Could be very fun. Also maybe make one-shot type cards more interesting? Since you can get them back after "trashing" a.k.a exiling them.
Title: Re: Dominion: Menagerie
Post by: mxdata on January 07, 2020, 12:12:32 pm
Exile mat sounds exciting. My guess is it's a way to get Saboteur-like cards to work. You can "trash" your opponents cards by sending them to the Exile, but the player always has the ability to get them back by doing certain things. Could be very fun. Also maybe make one-shot type cards more interesting? Since you can get them back after "trashing" a.k.a exiling them.

Seems like it would be kind of a weak attack if that's how it works, since it would only temporarily take a card out of your deck
Title: Re: Dominion: Menagerie
Post by: pubby on January 07, 2020, 12:15:13 pm
Updated box-art scans leaking on BGG:
(https://i.imgur.com/7ykT4W0.png)
Title: Re: Dominion: Menagerie
Post by: mxdata on January 07, 2020, 12:27:23 pm
"youíre like an elephant: you remember everything. And youíre afraid of mice" I wonder if this is means there's some kind of interaction between two cards called Elephant and Mouse (or Mice)?  Maybe they're a split pile?
Title: Re: Dominion: Menagerie
Post by: Willvon on January 07, 2020, 01:13:38 pm
This sounds fantastic. I cannot wait. Early March will now be reserved for not just March Madness, but also for Dominion: Menagerie previews. Thank you so much, Donald and Jay, for continuing to feed our hunger for more Dominion.
Title: Re: Dominion: Menagerie
Post by: ossiangrr on January 07, 2020, 01:14:49 pm
+Card as a token (I assume that's how Horses will work).

Don't you think you're putting the card before the horse?




 :D
Title: Re: Dominion: Menagerie
Post by: Chappy7 on January 07, 2020, 01:21:10 pm
I hope there is a platypus card.

In all seriousness though, I'm so pumped for more Dominion content.  There are already more expansions than I originally anticipated, so each new one is just gravy.  I love it.
Title: Re: Dominion: Menagerie
Post by: segura on January 07, 2020, 01:55:52 pm
The Exile mat sounds like it is used for a softer version of a trashing Attack.
Title: Re: Dominion: Menagerie
Post by: vishwathg on January 07, 2020, 02:00:53 pm
When can we expect previews? Sometime in February?
Title: Re: Dominion: Menagerie
Post by: Donald X. on January 07, 2020, 03:09:18 pm
When can we expect previews? Sometime in February?
Probably the last week of February or first week of March.
Title: Re: Dominion: Menagerie
Post by: Squidd on January 07, 2020, 03:14:12 pm
"youíre like an elephant: you remember everything. And youíre afraid of mice" I wonder if this is means there's some kind of interaction between two cards called Elephant and Mouse (or Mice)?  Maybe they're a split pile?
Elephants being afraid of mice is a standard cliche. This is probably just a funny.

I believe the blacksmith who turns into a werewolf is the only time we've ever gotten an actual hint of card mechanics from the flavor text. Someone will correct me if I'm wrong.
Title: Re: Dominion: Menagerie
Post by: spineflu on January 07, 2020, 03:16:14 pm
"youíre like an elephant: you remember everything. And youíre afraid of mice" I wonder if this is means there's some kind of interaction between two cards called Elephant and Mouse (or Mice)?  Maybe they're a split pile?
Elephants being afraid of mice is a standard cliche. This is probably just a funny.

I believe the blacksmith who turns into a werewolf is the only time we've ever gotten an actual hint of card mechanics from the flavor text. Someone will correct me if I'm wrong.

clearly you've never had Rats irl.
They ate all my treasures, and all my estates.
Title: Re: Dominion: Menagerie
Post by: Squidd on January 07, 2020, 03:36:43 pm
The Dark Ages *flavor text* doesn't even mention rats. It talks a lot about begging, in a way that says nothing about the gameplay of Beggar.
Title: Re: Dominion: Menagerie
Post by: spineflu on January 07, 2020, 03:50:15 pm
ah, expansion flavor text. gotcha. misread your comment.
Title: Re: Dominion: Menagerie
Post by: mxdata on January 07, 2020, 04:31:59 pm
Will there be a pre-order option on the website closer to the release date?
Title: Re: Dominion: Menagerie
Post by: Donald X. on January 07, 2020, 04:42:59 pm
Will there be a pre-order option on the website closer to the release date?
Has there ever been? RGG sells to distributors, not players.
Title: Re: Dominion: Menagerie
Post by: mxdata on January 07, 2020, 04:56:24 pm
Will there be a pre-order option on the website closer to the release date?
Has there ever been? RGG sells to distributors, not players.
Oh, I didn't realize that.  The expansions I have I bought either on Amazon or in store, but I'd just assumed that you could also buy directly from RGG.  Never mind then
Title: Re: Dominion: Menagerie
Post by: J Reggie on January 07, 2020, 05:28:26 pm
Maybe Ways are another landscape kingdom thing like events, landmarks, and projects? And I can foresee the exile mat confusing converted Magic players.
Title: Re: Dominion: Menagerie
Post by: Snowyowl on January 07, 2020, 06:46:20 pm
Maybe Ways are another landscape kingdom thing like events, landmarks, and projects?
Maybe! Perhaps they are things you can spend an Action to do, in the way that Events are things you can spend a Buy to do.
Title: Re: Dominion: Menagerie
Post by: mxdata on January 07, 2020, 07:10:40 pm
Maybe Ways are another landscape kingdom thing like events, landmarks, and projects?
Maybe! Perhaps they are things you can spend an Action to do, in the way that Events are things you can spend a Buy to do.

Oh!  That would make sense, since the description says "Ways that give Actions another option".  I was thinking that meant it did something to Action cards, but that actually makes a lot more sense.  Perhaps it's something like "Use 1 action + $X to ______" or "Use 1 action and discard X cards to ______".  It seems like there'd have to be something more than just an action, since if it's just an Action, then that would be equivalent to an Action card that's automatically in every single hand.  It would have to be either very weak (like "use 1 Action to get $1") or would end up warping the game if it's strong, and neither option sounds especially fun
Title: Re: Dominion: Menagerie
Post by: Minotaur on January 07, 2020, 07:33:24 pm
ok but it's not inception until there's a card called Alchemy
Title: Re: Dominion: Menagerie
Post by: crj on January 07, 2020, 07:34:43 pm
Gngh! One month too late!

New sets seem to take weeks to reach the UK, and I'm going to be in the USA in February. So close to being able to pick up a set while out there. *sniff*
Title: Re: Dominion: Menagerie
Post by: Minotaur on January 07, 2020, 07:47:42 pm
You should plan a small expansion called Chancellor and then cancel it.  And then release a larger one called Messenger.

You know what, forget it.  Never listen to a minotaur.
Title: Re: Dominion: Menagerie
Post by: werothegreat on January 08, 2020, 12:57:34 am
I argued for the set to be called Bestiary, but apparently that was too close to Bestiality for some peoples' tastes
Title: Re: Dominion: Menagerie
Post by: markusin on January 08, 2020, 09:59:38 am
I argued for the set to be called Bestiary, but apparently that was too close to Bestiality for some peoples' tastes

I personally think they made the right call on that one.
Title: Re: Dominion: Menagerie
Post by: trivialknot on January 08, 2020, 01:04:38 pm
With 400 cards and only 30 kingdom cards, I wonder how the other 70 cards are accounted for.  70 events seems implausible, so maybe Horses are cards, or maybe Ways are implemented in a way that requires a lot of cards.
Title: Re: Dominion: Menagerie
Post by: GendoIkari on January 08, 2020, 01:09:05 pm
With 400 cards and only 30 kingdom cards, I wonder how the other 70 cards are accounted for.  70 events seems implausible, so maybe Horses are cards, or maybe Ways are implemented in a way that requires a lot of cards.

Well, it's animal themed, so there could be some sort of "super-rat" pile that has 80 copies.
Title: Re: Dominion: Menagerie
Post by: spineflu on January 08, 2020, 01:35:36 pm
"super-rat"

Capybaras?
Title: Re: Dominion: Menagerie
Post by: scolapasta on January 08, 2020, 01:44:05 pm
With 400 cards and only 30 kingdom cards, I wonder how the other 70 cards are accounted for.  70 events seems implausible, so maybe Horses are cards, or maybe Ways are implemented in a way that requires a lot of cards.

Well, it's animal themed, so there could be some sort of "super-rat" pile that has 80 copies.

I'm assuming that Ways are Landscape cards (like discussed above, the equivalent of Events for Actions).

When Events, Landmarks, and Projects first came up out there were 20, 21, 20 of those, so 20 seems a safe assumption. Add 10 events (Empires added 13, so <20 seems to make sense), that's 30 of the 70.

The remaining for 40 would then be, like GendoIkari, said, some super sized piles, or also other non supply piles related to the 30 Kingdom cards. (or if one extra pile is only 8, 12 cards for a Victory card pile).

As you can see, I'm assuming that Horses are just the name for card tokens, like Villagers for action tokens, and Coffers for coin tokens.

The question I'm interested in is, assuming that's true, when can you use the Horses? Villagers are only during Action phase, and Coffers only during Buy phase. Will Horses be limited to just one phase? or anytime?

Limiting to Action phase doesn't stop you from using them right *before* your Buy phase to draw extra Treasure. I guess they could be only during cleanup (drawing for your next hand), but that seems way too limiting.
Title: Re: Dominion: Menagerie
Post by: J Reggie on January 08, 2020, 05:19:25 pm
Oh man, I really hope Horses are implemented in a way that cards say +1 Horse.
Title: Re: Dominion: Menagerie
Post by: crj on January 08, 2020, 05:28:54 pm
I've long thought that the Menagerie card ought to have been called Zoo, just to cover another letter of the alphabet when it comes to card names.

Maybe it could be renamed now this expansion exists. (-8
Title: Re: Dominion: Menagerie
Post by: Awaclus on January 08, 2020, 05:29:17 pm
If you're building a megaturn deck, you should hold your horses.
Title: Re: Dominion: Menagerie
Post by: mxdata on January 08, 2020, 05:39:16 pm
Given that the description says "Horses that save a draw for later", I wonder if the way they'll work is that you actually draw one less card when you receive the Horse.  So, when you initially receive the Horse token it's like the -card token in Adventures, but then later when you use them, you get +1 card per token used (maybe you use them anytime you'd draw to get +1 card?  So, you couldn't simply use it before your buy phase to get another treasure, but you could use it before playing, say, a village to instead get +2 cards +2 actions, or at clean-up to get 6 cards in your next hand).  So you're saving the draw you would've gotten for later
Title: Re: Dominion: Menagerie
Post by: Minotaur on January 08, 2020, 05:43:01 pm
Oh man, I really hope Horses are implemented in a way that cards say +1 Horse.

I was hoping for +1 Lab Rat, but I'll take it.
Title: Re: Dominion: Menagerie
Post by: LibraryAdventurer on January 08, 2020, 06:14:08 pm
"super-rat"

Capybaras?
R.O.U.S.es

I argued for the set to be called Bestiary, but apparently that was too close to Bestiality for some peoples' tastes

I personally think they made the right call on that one.

Really?  If you see the word "Bestiary" and think of "Bestiality", you've got a pretty sick mind.
Title: Re: Dominion: Menagerie
Post by: FlyerBeast on January 08, 2020, 06:20:24 pm
Here's hoping that every animal card has the Rats/Magpie mechanic, I want a kingdom of ten cards that gain copies of themselves...
Title: Re: Dominion: Menagerie
Post by: mxdata on January 08, 2020, 06:31:42 pm
Here's hoping that every animal card has the Rats/Magpie mechanic, I want a kingdom of ten cards that gain copies of themselves...
Rabbit: "When you play this card, if it is the second Rabbit played this turn, gain the rest of the Rabbit pile"
Title: Re: Dominion: Menagerie
Post by: Wizard_Amul on January 08, 2020, 09:15:19 pm
Given that the description says "Horses that save a draw for later", I wonder if the way they'll work is that you actually draw one less card when you receive the Horse.  So, when you initially receive the Horse token it's like the -card token in Adventures, but then later when you use them, you get +1 card per token used (maybe you use them anytime you'd draw to get +1 card?  So, you couldn't simply use it before your buy phase to get another treasure, but you could use it before playing, say, a village to instead get +2 cards +2 actions, or at clean-up to get 6 cards in your next hand).  So you're saving the draw you would've gotten for later

This is what I thought based on "save a draw," too. However, I wouldn't think you'd have to use a Horse token only when you are drawing cards but rather just any time in your action phase (like how you spend a villager).
Title: Re: Dominion: Menagerie
Post by: Kevin K on January 08, 2020, 09:45:08 pm
Can't wait to play the powerful - Duck, Duck, Goose combo.
Title: Re: Dominion: Menagerie
Post by: Titandrake on January 08, 2020, 09:48:49 pm
Given that the description says "Horses that save a draw for later", I wonder if the way they'll work is that you actually draw one less card when you receive the Horse.  So, when you initially receive the Horse token it's like the -card token in Adventures, but then later when you use them, you get +1 card per token used (maybe you use them anytime you'd draw to get +1 card?  So, you couldn't simply use it before your buy phase to get another treasure, but you could use it before playing, say, a village to instead get +2 cards +2 actions, or at clean-up to get 6 cards in your next hand).  So you're saving the draw you would've gotten for later

This is what I thought based on "save a draw," too. However, I wouldn't think you'd have to use a Horse token only when you are drawing cards but rather just any time in your action phase (like how you spend a villager).

Based on this being more complicated, I think Horses are just going to be +1 Card (possibly costing an action to use), and cards that give Horses will not give +Cards. This is how all the Coffers cards have worked in the past - they didn't give you +$1 but they gave you the option to use +$1.

I'm guessing Horses may have an added cost because non-terminal card draw has proven to be really good, and deferring your card draw until you have spare actions sounds strong and hard to balance.

The part I find funny is that back in 2012, I made a My Little Pony fan expansion (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=2455.0) whose central mechanic was "cards that let each opponent draw an extra card", and 7.5 years later Dominion canonically has Horses that let you draw cards.
Title: Re: Dominion: Menagerie
Post by: Saul Goodman on January 08, 2020, 11:14:04 pm
Maybe Ways are another landscape kingdom thing like events, landmarks, and projects? And I can foresee the exile mat confusing converted Magic players.

I predict Ways will be like Teacher.  Teach actions to do additional things.  But instead of having to earn the Teacher, you buy the right to immediately add the Way to a Kingdom card that you choose.  Kind of like a Landmark and Project combined.

It would be a sideways card

For example, you spend $7 to add your "+1 Traveler" token to the Smithy pile.

Maybe you spend $9 to add a +1Horse to a pile.

Maybe you spend $6 to add a +1 Coffee to a pile.

And you have all the other Teacher tokens from Adventures, too.
Title: Re: Dominion: Menagerie
Post by: Saul Goodman on January 08, 2020, 11:16:32 pm
Here's hoping that every animal card has the Rats/Magpie mechanic, I want a kingdom of ten cards that gain copies of themselves...
Rabbit: "When you play this card, if it is the second Rabbit played this turn, gain the rest of the Rabbit pile"

I cackled.
Title: Re: Dominion: Menagerie
Post by: segura on January 09, 2020, 01:09:04 am
Given that the description says "Horses that save a draw for later", I wonder if the way they'll work is that you actually draw one less card when you receive the Horse.  So, when you initially receive the Horse token it's like the -card token in Adventures, but then later when you use them, you get +1 card per token used (maybe you use them anytime you'd draw to get +1 card?  So, you couldn't simply use it before your buy phase to get another treasure, but you could use it before playing, say, a village to instead get +2 cards +2 actions, or at clean-up to get 6 cards in your next hand).  So you're saving the draw you would've gotten for later

This is what I thought based on "save a draw," too. However, I wouldn't think you'd have to use a Horse token only when you are drawing cards but rather just any time in your action phase (like how you spend a villager).
Based on this being more complicated, I think Horses are just going to be +1 Card (possibly costing an action to use)
I am extremely sure that this is not going to be the case. That would make a Horse similar to a one-shot Moat.

Quote
I'm guessing Horses may have an added cost because non-terminal card draw has proven to be really good, and deferring your card draw until you have spare actions sounds strong and hard to balance.
Why non-terminal? If a card says +2 Horses, it is terminal. Sure, you can use the bonus at any time but that doesn't magically make it non-terminal. Just because Haunted Woods is a triple Lab next turn doesn't mean that it is non-terminal, it is dead when you play it.
Title: Re: Dominion: Menagerie
Post by: Titandrake on January 09, 2020, 02:12:09 am
It's card draw where you choose how much of it you want to use. Stockpiling extra draw you don't need, only drawing up to the end of your shuffle, etc. all sounds really strong. Non-terminal isn't the most precise word for it, but I would guess that in practice you usually use Horses when you have a free action available, or you're confident you won't draw an action dead.

Horses probably don't have an additional cost, but I do expect that cards with Horses will look overcosted until you play with them.
Title: Re: Dominion: Menagerie
Post by: Minotaur on January 09, 2020, 02:17:47 am
Chief Subordinate Horse Officer, 1st Class
Action-Duration
Cost: <12>

At the start of each turn for the rest of the game: +1 Horse.
Title: Re: Dominion: Menagerie
Post by: Minotaur on January 09, 2020, 02:18:31 am
...or Mr. Ed for short
Title: Re: Dominion: Menagerie
Post by: Hockey Mask on January 09, 2020, 08:53:19 pm
The game comes to a stand still when you play Possum.
Title: Re: Dominion: Menagerie
Post by: segura on January 10, 2020, 12:47:31 am
Stockpiling extra draw you don't need, only drawing up to the end of your shuffle, etc. all sounds really strong.
I agree and like to add that this it also facilitates megaturns.
On the other hand, relative to Villagers, the hypothetical +1 Buy token and Coffers, Horses are likely fairly weak. Normally you want to draw as much as possible, e.g. while you are still building to cycle.
Title: Re: Dominion: Menagerie
Post by: Saul Goodman on January 10, 2020, 11:13:38 am
The game comes to a stand still when you play Possum.

Possum
Action/Reaction/Duration
Cost 3 Coin

+2 Cards
Gain a Possum
This card stays in play until your next turn .  While in play, you are unaffected by attacks.
____________
When another player plays an attack card, you may reveal this and send it to your exile mat.  If you do, you may send that players' attack card to their exile mat and that player gains The Skewer. 

When this is Trashed by another player, +1 coffer.

Set-up: This card may only be used in Kingdoms with three or more Attack Cards.

The Skewer (Artifact)

Once at the beginning of your turn while you have this, you may trash another player's Possum from play or from their Exile Mat.  If you do, +1 Action and return an attack card from your Exile Mat to your hand.
Title: Re: Dominion: Menagerie
Post by: markusin on January 10, 2020, 07:17:39 pm
I argued for the set to be called Bestiary, but apparently that was too close to Bestiality for some peoples' tastes

I personally think they made the right call on that one.

Really?  If you see the word "Bestiary" and think of "Bestiality", you've got a pretty sick mind.

If your player base might complain about Witch being too occult why take chances. It's more about misreading it from far. Of course, I wouldn't expect any kids to make such a connection.
Title: Re: Dominion: Menagerie
Post by: crj on January 10, 2020, 07:23:53 pm
On the other hand, relative to Villagers, the hypothetical +1 Buy token and Coffers, Horses are likely fairly weak. Normally you want to draw as much as possible, e.g. while you are still building to cycle.
It feels to me that a draw you can save for later is likely to be better than a coin you can save for later. If it isn't, the average card in your deck is less good than a Copper, and you're Doing It Wrong. (-8

And I bet people would be delighted to pay $4 for a Horsey Village that was +1 Horse, +2 Actions. For all I know that might even turn out to be underpriced.
Title: Re: Dominion: Menagerie
Post by: mxdata on January 10, 2020, 07:55:39 pm
On the other hand, relative to Villagers, the hypothetical +1 Buy token and Coffers, Horses are likely fairly weak. Normally you want to draw as much as possible, e.g. while you are still building to cycle.
It feels to me that a draw you can save for later is likely to be better than a coin you can save for later. If it isn't, the average card in your deck is less good than a Copper, and you're Doing It Wrong. (-8

And I bet people would be delighted to pay $4 for a Horsey Village that was +1 Horse, +2 Actions. For all I know that might even turn out to be underpriced.

Yeah, if I already have $8 in hand, I would be delighted to have the chance to save the draws for another hand where I might only have $7.  So a horse village or horse lab would be really handy

Maybe a Horse Race that's similar to Chariot Race from Empire, except instead of gaining a victory token you gain a Horse token?
Title: Re: Dominion: Menagerie
Post by: trivialknot on January 10, 2020, 09:32:12 pm
The interesting thing is that with coffers, you have vanilla cards.  You have baker, candlestick maker, and to a lesser extent plaza and villain.  But there arenít really vanilla villager cards.  No cantrip that gives you villagers, just patron and maybe acting troupe.  I think vanilla villager cards just donít work as well as cards like lackeys that put a limit on how many you can gain. 

The question is if horses are more like coffers or more like villagers.  I suspect theyíre more like coffers, and vanilla horse cards would work just fine.  Consider an action that just says +1 action, +1 Horse.  Seems like a solid card idea to me.
Title: Re: Dominion: Menagerie
Post by: dz on January 10, 2020, 10:05:22 pm
The interesting thing is that with coffers, you have vanilla cards.  You have baker, candlestick maker, and to a lesser extent plaza and villain.  But there arenít really vanilla villager cards.  No cantrip that gives you villagers, just patron and maybe acting troupe.  I think vanilla villager cards just donít work as well as cards like lackeys that put a limit on how many you can gain. 

The question is if horses are more like coffers or more like villagers.  I suspect theyíre more like coffers, and vanilla horse cards would work just fine.  Consider an action that just says +1 action, +1 Horse.  Seems like a solid card idea to me.

It's more of a battle between simple things, and exciting things. The lack of vanilla villagers is mostly because of how unexciting and low-hanging fruit they are compared to e.g. Recruiter.

Quote from: Renaissance outtakes
There was a village that was, cantrip, +1 Villager; man it's fine, you can argue about, does it need to cost $5, but it's nice. The village that's always there when you need it. But really, the experience it gives is the villager experience, and other cards are giving us that experience. Another village just came with +2 Villagers; we already have that experience too.
Title: Re: Dominion: Menagerie
Post by: mxdata on January 11, 2020, 02:05:11 am
If Horses are indeed tokens, I wonder if there'll be any cards with a "When you gain this, +1 Horse" on it, or maybe even a "when you trash this"

Maybe something like a Horse version of Plaza, "You may discard a card for +1 Horse"?

A kind of "delayed Apprentice"?  "Trash a card from your hand, +1 Horse per coin it costs"?
Title: Re: Dominion: Menagerie
Post by: Donald X. on January 11, 2020, 03:54:12 am
It's more of a battle between simple things, and exciting things. The lack of vanilla villagers is mostly because of how unexciting and low-hanging fruit they are compared to e.g. Recruiter.

Quote from: Renaissance outtakes
There was a village that was, cantrip, +1 Villager; man it's fine, you can argue about, does it need to cost $5, but it's nice. The village that's always there when you need it. But really, the experience it gives is the villager experience, and other cards are giving us that experience. Another village just came with +2 Villagers; we already have that experience too.
I'm not against low-hanging fruit, and love to do vanilla stuff when I can. Acting Troupe and Lackeys are both exceptionally simple +villagers cards; sure they're not pure +'s but man, that's not the only way to be super simple.

Cantrip villager was the first villager card in the file. Soon there were a bunch though. It didn't provide an experience we weren't getting other ways, and eventually it was crowded out. It was fine, but every card is trying to add something, and what it added was just "villagers." That isn't always how it goes. Inventor is just a Bridge-Workshop, but the experience seemed different enough and there it is in the set.

Another thing is, if you have a sleek pretty vanilla card, wait this could be a good place to slap that when-gain or whatever you wanted to fit in the set somehow. Patron could have just been the top, but I had this ability to do and that was a good place to do it. So this also cuts into vanilla cards. And hey Baker has one of those, it's not vanilla at all, certainly not more vanilla than Lackeys and Acting Troupe.
Title: Re: Dominion: Menagerie
Post by: segura on January 11, 2020, 07:04:51 am
On the other hand, relative to Villagers, the hypothetical +1 Buy token and Coffers, Horses are likely fairly weak. Normally you want to draw as much as possible, e.g. while you are still building to cycle.
It feels to me that a draw you can save for later is likely to be better than a coin you can save for later. If it isn't, the average card in your deck is less good than a Copper, and you're Doing It Wrong. (-8

And I bet people would be delighted to pay $4 for a Horsey Village that was +1 Horse, +2 Actions. For all I know that might even turn out to be underpriced.
Sure, Lab is better than Peddler, a cantrip that yields a Horse is better than Baker. That's elementary.

My point was that the relative benefit of Horses to Cards is smaller than that of Coffers to Coins which is again smaller than that of Villagers to Actions (which is again likely similar to the relative benefit of Buy tokens to Buys).
Cards are simply the 'least necessary to save' vanilla thingy.
Title: Re: Dominion: Menagerie
Post by: Minotaur on January 11, 2020, 03:46:40 pm
Knowing the next card of your deck could make horses worth more.  Or rather, make the ones you actually use effectively be worth more.  This is pretty hard to do on command on most boards, though...

Mounted Scouts
Project
Cost: <8>

Any time you could play an Action, you may look at the top X cards of your deck, where X is how many horses you have.
Title: Re: Dominion: Menagerie
Post by: Jeebus on January 13, 2020, 03:23:57 pm
"Your menagerie got off to a poor start, with just a goat, two rats, and the advisor who suggested starting a menagerie."

I took this to be just a reference to earlier sets, not a clue about this one. After all, there can't be a Rats or Goat card in this one.
Title: Re: Dominion: Menagerie
Post by: hhelibebcnofnena on January 13, 2020, 03:33:58 pm
"Your menagerie got off to a poor start, with just a goat, two rats, and the advisor who suggested starting a menagerie."

I took this to be just a reference to earlier sets, not a clue about this one. After all, there can't be a Rats or Goat card in this one.

Or Advisor, for that matter.
Title: Re: Dominion: Menagerie
Post by: Jeebus on January 13, 2020, 03:52:16 pm
Or Menagerie, for that matter.
Title: Re: Dominion: Menagerie
Post by: Titandrake on January 13, 2020, 04:31:32 pm
"Your menagerie got off to a poor start, with just a goat, two rats, and the advisor who suggested starting a menagerie."

I took this to be just a reference to earlier sets, not a clue about this one. After all, there can't be a Rats or Goat card in this one.

I mean, if your hand starts with 2 Rats in it, your Menagerie isn't going to activate. Meanwhile your Advisor is going to increase the odds you have duplicate cards, if your opponent is keeping track of what cards they gave you from previous Advisors. Sounds like a poor start to me.
Title: Re: Dominion: Menagerie
Post by: markusin on January 14, 2020, 10:18:26 am
"Your menagerie got off to a poor start, with just a goat, two rats, and the advisor who suggested starting a menagerie."

I took this to be just a reference to earlier sets, not a clue about this one. After all, there can't be a Rats or Goat card in this one.

I mean, if your hand starts with 2 Rats in it, your Menagerie isn't going to activate. Meanwhile your Advisor is going to increase the odds you have duplicate cards, if your opponent is keeping track of what cards they gave you from previous Advisors. Sounds like a poor start to me.
Have one of the rats eat the Advisor. That might help.
Title: Re: Dominion: Menagerie
Post by: ClouduHieh on January 14, 2020, 11:04:51 am
Dominion menagerie oh yeah! Awesome! I love animals! I volunteer at a zoo. When I made my own fan based expansions I did it with adding more animals to dominion. Now I can put that on hold while wait for my new favorite expansion. I canít wait to see how the mechanics work in this expansion almost as much as which animals will be in this expansion. Thanks so much Donald for making a animal expansion for dominion. You are awesome!
Title: Re: Dominion: Menagerie
Post by: Hockey Mask on January 15, 2020, 11:09:28 am
Do we think it is likely that all the Kingdoms are animals or just 6-10?
Title: Re: Dominion: Menagerie
Post by: GendoIkari on January 15, 2020, 11:48:47 am
Do we think it is likely that all the Kingdoms are animals or just 6-10?

I'd assume basically no chance of them being all animals. At most, half of them.
Title: Re: Dominion: Menagerie
Post by: hhelibebcnofnena on January 15, 2020, 12:48:25 pm
I hope there's at least enough animal cards that we can make an animal kingdom.
Title: Re: Dominion: Menagerie
Post by: crj on January 15, 2020, 04:20:34 pm
My guess, based on past sets, is that at least half the cards will be on-theme. Look at the other sets with strong themes: Seaside, Alchemy, Dark Ages, Guilds, Nocturne and the proportions of those that related to the theme.

(Good luck figuring out which cards match the theme of "hinterlands". (-8 )

As for making an animal kingdom, that's already just-about possible: Familiar, Trusty Steed, Rats, Magpie, Wolf Den, Faithful Hound, Goat, Bat, Locusts. You might need to stretch a point and include animal-related things like Wolf Den, Werewolf, Menagerie, Stables, Hunting Party, Hunting Grounds, Wild Hunt, Horse Traders, etc.
Title: Re: Dominion: Menagerie
Post by: Jeebus on January 15, 2020, 04:58:05 pm
As for making an animal kingdom, that's already just-about possible: Familiar, Trusty Steed, Rats, Magpie, Wolf Den, Faithful Hound, Goat, Bat, Locusts. You might need to stretch a point and include animal-related things like Wolf Den, Werewolf, Menagerie, Stables, Hunting Party, Hunting Grounds, Wild Hunt, Horse Traders, etc.

I don't know if I would call that familiar an animal any more than I would call the Imp one.
Title: Re: Dominion: Menagerie
Post by: markusin on January 15, 2020, 05:40:54 pm
My guess, based on past sets, is that at least half the cards will be on-theme. Look at the other sets with strong themes: Seaside, Alchemy, Dark Ages, Guilds, Nocturne and the proportions of those that related to the theme.

(Good luck figuring out which cards match the theme of "hinterlands". (-8 )

As for making an animal kingdom, that's already just-about possible: Familiar, Trusty Steed, Rats, Magpie, Wolf Den, Faithful Hound, Goat, Bat, Locusts. You might need to stretch a point and include animal-related things like Wolf Den, Werewolf, Menagerie, Stables, Hunting Party, Hunting Grounds, Wild Hunt, Horse Traders, etc.

Werewolf isn't any less animal related than Bat.

Edit: Also, my list had Pooka.
Title: Re: Dominion: Menagerie
Post by: GendoIkari on January 15, 2020, 08:21:29 pm
My guess, based on past sets, is that at least half the cards will be on-theme. Look at the other sets with strong themes: Seaside, Alchemy, Dark Ages, Guilds, Nocturne and the proportions of those that related to the theme.

Yeah but "on theme" here doesn't mean "is a card named after an animal".
Title: Re: Dominion: Menagerie
Post by: spineflu on January 15, 2020, 09:44:53 pm
My guess, based on past sets, is that at least half the cards will be on-theme. Look at the other sets with strong themes: Seaside, Alchemy, Dark Ages, Guilds, Nocturne and the proportions of those that related to the theme.

(Good luck figuring out which cards match the theme of "hinterlands". (-8 )

As for making an animal kingdom, that's already just-about possible: Familiar, Trusty Steed, Rats, Magpie, Wolf Den, Faithful Hound, Goat, Bat, Locusts. You might need to stretch a point and include animal-related things like Wolf Den, Werewolf, Menagerie, Stables, Hunting Party, Hunting Grounds, Wild Hunt, Horse Traders, etc.

Werewolf isn't any less animal related than Bat.


wait do you think a werewolf isn't a person?
Title: Re: Dominion: Menagerie
Post by: hhelibebcnofnena on January 16, 2020, 09:07:56 am
As for making an animal kingdom, that's already just-about possible: Familiar, Trusty Steed, Rats, Magpie, Wolf Den, Faithful Hound, Goat, Bat, Locusts. You might need to stretch a point and include animal-related things like Wolf Den, Werewolf, Menagerie, Stables, Hunting Party, Hunting Grounds, Wild Hunt, Horse Traders, etc.

Trusty Steed, Wolf Den, Goat, Bat, and Locusts aren't kingdom cards, so they don't belong in an animal kingdom. Familiar and Menagerie aren't specific animals. Stables and Horse Traders are humans or human-made things. Hunting Party, Hunting Grounds, and Wild Hunt are killing animals, so I wouldn't count them in an animal kingdom. A werewolf is a person for 98.3% of their life, only become an animal for the 1.7% of their life which is a full moon.

So by my count, our current animal kingdom is Rats, Magpie, Faithful Hound. 7 to go.
If I were slightly less strict, I might include Familiar and/or Menagerie, bringing the needed amount down to 5.
Title: Re: Dominion: Menagerie
Post by: Jeebus on January 16, 2020, 09:36:42 am
Yes, if it's purely a kingdom of animals, it's 3. But I would include Menagerie, Stables and Horse Traders if it's an animal-themed kingdom, so that's 6.

I don't see why people keep saying Familiar, I guess they think it's a cat? Take a look at the card, it's just some fantasy creature.
Title: Re: Dominion: Menagerie
Post by: GendoIkari on January 16, 2020, 10:34:48 am
I don't see why people keep saying Familiar, I guess they think it's a cat? Take a look at the card, it's just some fantasy creature.

A fantasy creature is an animal basically by definition. Sure it's not an animal that exists in the real world, which sets it apart from something like Goat, but it's definitely an animal. (I guess the other difference is that it's not the name of an animal, but rather the name of a roll that an animal plays? So it's more like "livestock" or "pet").
Title: Re: Dominion: Menagerie
Post by: Jeebus on January 16, 2020, 10:52:17 am
I don't see why people keep saying Familiar, I guess they think it's a cat? Take a look at the card, it's just some fantasy creature.

A fantasy creature is an animal basically by definition. Sure it's not an animal that exists in the real world, which sets it apart from something like Goat, but it's definitely an animal. (I guess the other difference is that it's not the name of an animal, but rather the name of a roll that an animal plays? So it's more like "livestock" or "pet").

But then Golem, Imp and Will-o'-Wisp are also animals? (I know the latter two are not kingdom cards.)

Edit: Again, take a look at the card. The familiar on the card is depicted as a demon-like creature, not as a real animal that plays a role as a familiar. Familiars are familiar spirits that can appear "as animals, but also at times as humans or humanoid figures." (WP) In this case it's not an animal, it's a little demon-like fantastical creature.
Title: Re: Dominion: Menagerie
Post by: GendoIkari on January 16, 2020, 11:12:19 am
Familiars are familiar spirits that can appear "as animals, but also at times as humans or humanoid figures."

I didn't know this. I must not be as..... familiar with the subject as you!
Title: Re: Dominion: Menagerie
Post by: markusin on January 16, 2020, 11:38:56 am
My guess, based on past sets, is that at least half the cards will be on-theme. Look at the other sets with strong themes: Seaside, Alchemy, Dark Ages, Guilds, Nocturne and the proportions of those that related to the theme.

(Good luck figuring out which cards match the theme of "hinterlands". (-8 )

As for making an animal kingdom, that's already just-about possible: Familiar, Trusty Steed, Rats, Magpie, Wolf Den, Faithful Hound, Goat, Bat, Locusts. You might need to stretch a point and include animal-related things like Wolf Den, Werewolf, Menagerie, Stables, Hunting Party, Hunting Grounds, Wild Hunt, Horse Traders, etc.

Werewolf isn't any less animal related than Bat.


wait do you think a werewolf isn't a person?

The bat is actually the Vampire that transforms into the bat (you can't remove the Bat from the Vampire because Bat is not a kingdom card). Similarly, the Werewolf is a man that takes on a wolf form at night, perhaps depending on the moon. The wolf form is not shown on the card, so it might be an actual wolf or a "wolf-man".

So I say Werewolf isn't any less animal related than bat because both are humanoids transforming into animals.
Title: Re: Dominion: Menagerie
Post by: GendoIkari on January 16, 2020, 11:52:32 am
My guess, based on past sets, is that at least half the cards will be on-theme. Look at the other sets with strong themes: Seaside, Alchemy, Dark Ages, Guilds, Nocturne and the proportions of those that related to the theme.

(Good luck figuring out which cards match the theme of "hinterlands". (-8 )

As for making an animal kingdom, that's already just-about possible: Familiar, Trusty Steed, Rats, Magpie, Wolf Den, Faithful Hound, Goat, Bat, Locusts. You might need to stretch a point and include animal-related things like Wolf Den, Werewolf, Menagerie, Stables, Hunting Party, Hunting Grounds, Wild Hunt, Horse Traders, etc.

Werewolf isn't any less animal related than Bat.


wait do you think a werewolf isn't a person?

The bat is actually the Vampire that transforms into the bat (you can't remove the Bat from the Vampire because Bat is not a kingdom card). Similarly, the Werewolf is a man that takes on a wolf form at night, perhaps depending on the moon. The wolf form is not shown on the card, so it might be an actual wolf or a "wolf-man".

So I say Werewolf isn't any less animal related than bat because both are humanoids transforming into animals.

Yeah, in this case it's the difference between "Bat as a card name with no context" and "Bat as the name of a card that exists in Dominion, and isn't actually a real bat, but a form taken by a mythical creature".
Title: Re: Dominion: Menagerie
Post by: Minotaur on January 17, 2020, 10:39:20 pm
Do we think it is likely that all the Kingdoms are animals or just 6-10?

I'd assume basically no chance of them being all animals. At most, half of them.

Do humans count in your classification?  Because you're expecting ships and buildings and inanimate objects for the other 50%.
Title: Re: Dominion: Menagerie
Post by: crj on January 18, 2020, 08:19:21 am
As a Monty Python fan, I'm going to be sad if there isn't some form of rabbit with a surprisingly strong attack, incidentally.
Title: Re: Dominion: Menagerie
Post by: ClouduHieh on January 18, 2020, 08:19:38 pm
And donít forget enchantress also had a pig in it.
Title: Re: Dominion: Menagerie
Post by: crj on January 19, 2020, 09:11:44 am
If we're going down the route of cards with animal in the art, even Village counts. Actually, at a quick glance, Harbinger, Merchant, Village, Gardens, Poacher, Market from the base set feature animals in the art. (-8
Title: Re: Dominion: Menagerie
Post by: Minotaur on January 19, 2020, 02:00:57 pm
If we're going down the route of cards with animal in the art, even Village counts. Actually, at a quick glance, Harbinger, Merchant, Village, Gardens, Poacher, Market from the base set feature animals in the art. (-8

Poacher now counts as an attack and other players discard down to 5/4/3 cards in hand.
Title: Re: Dominion: Menagerie
Post by: ClouduHieh on January 22, 2020, 01:33:54 am
Enchantress didnít just simply have a pig on it, whenever I played online my first action always had a picture of the pig on it when enchantress was in play hence my first action became the pig. So it was almost like pig was a separate Kingdom card.

Village, harbinger ect. Didnít do that.
Title: Re: Dominion: Menagerie
Post by: Jeebus on January 22, 2020, 11:07:10 am
Enchantress didnít just simply have a pig on it, whenever I played online my first action always had a picture of the pig on it when enchantress was in play hence my first action became the pig. So it was almost like pig was a separate Kingdom card.

Village, harbinger ect. Didnít do that.

Right, but that's not part of the game: There is no rule that says that an Enchanted card should be replaced with a Pig card (and there is no Pig card). That's just a graphic representation chosen by the developer of the online client.
Title: Re: Dominion: Menagerie
Post by: Ingix on January 22, 2020, 12:38:24 pm
Right, but that's not part of the game: There is no rule that says that an Enchanted card should be replaced with a Pig card (and there is no Pig card). That's just a graphic representation chosen by the developer of the online client.

And the reason was that we were getting lots of bug repoprts that said "card XYZ is not working, see my game number ...". Then it turned out there was an Enchantress played, that of course stopped the card XYZ doing what it normally does. This was due to several factors; the main one being the game doesn't show cards in play from the non-active player, so players could simply not see their opponent's Enchantress as they could in RL play.

So the choice was made to make it very clear that, if you are affected by an opponent's Enchantress, you can see that in advance in your personal status bar, and, most importantly, when you wanted to click on the first Action card that turn, you would see the Pig picture and be reminded that you get +1 Card, +1 Action.
Title: Re: Dominion: Menagerie
Post by: ClouduHieh on January 22, 2020, 05:31:38 pm
All Iím saying is the pig had a more active roll than the horse in harbinger. Thanks of course to online version. At the end of day though any extra card or box that has a picture of an animal on it is cool, like for instance hinterlands box had a monkey on it cool. And getting a new expansion with some animals actually having a bigger role in the game. Awesome!
Title: Re: Dominion: Menagerie
Post by: spineflu on January 22, 2020, 06:14:49 pm
Right, but that's not part of the game: There is no rule that says that an Enchanted card should be replaced with a Pig card (and there is no Pig card). That's just a graphic representation chosen by the developer of the online client.

And the reason was that we were getting lots of bug repoprts that said "card XYZ is not working, see my game number ...". Then it turned out there was an Enchantress played, that of course stopped the card XYZ doing what it normally does. This was due to several factors; the main one being the game doesn't show cards in play from the non-active player, so players could simply not see their opponent's Enchantress as they could in RL play.

So the choice was made to make it very clear that, if you are affected by an opponent's Enchantress, you can see that in advance in your personal status bar, and, most importantly, when you wanted to click on the first Action card that turn, you would see the Pig picture and be reminded that you get +1 Card, +1 Action.

this is a fascinating piece of insight into why the piggy cards exist.
Title: Re: Dominion: Menagerie
Post by: kieranmillar on January 23, 2020, 01:25:15 am
Dominion getting an animal themed expansion. Does this mean its jumped the shark?

 ;D
Title: Re: Dominion: Menagerie
Post by: crj on January 23, 2020, 08:19:53 pm
Empires contained Catapult, and a Catapult is tantamount to jumping the shark . (https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/38855/carcassonne-expansion-7-catapult in boardgaming circles)
Title: Re: Dominion: Menagerie
Post by: mxdata on January 23, 2020, 10:47:05 pm
I hope there's a card called Early Bird that allows you to gain a non-supply card called Worm
Title: Re: Dominion: Menagerie
Post by: Minotaur on January 24, 2020, 03:32:23 am
All Iím saying is the pig had a more active roll than the horse in harbinger.

Empty draw pile should be represented by a dead horse card.
Title: Re: Dominion: Menagerie
Post by: guidobass on January 26, 2020, 12:59:23 pm
The game comes to a stand still when you play Possum.

Now that's funny, I don't care who you are!
Title: Re: Dominion: Menagerie
Post by: Violet CLM on January 29, 2020, 11:04:20 pm
Hoping for a Wolf card that eats your Goat if you leave the two together, and likewise a Cabbage card that your Goat eats.
Title: Re: Dominion: Menagerie
Post by: Minotaur on January 29, 2020, 11:52:07 pm
Hoping for a Wolf card that eats your Goat if you leave the two together, and likewise a Cabbage card that your Goat eats.

There has to be some kind of Traveler and mat sequence for this.  And some kind of absurd payoff.
Title: Re: Dominion: Menagerie
Post by: cactus on January 30, 2020, 01:42:54 am
ďjust as useless for sewing as youíd been warnedĒ  ;D
Title: Re: Dominion: Menagerie
Post by: cactus on January 30, 2020, 02:12:34 am
Lions, split pile. You gotta buy 5x Lions before you reach the 5x Christians. Play a Lion when you already have a Christian in play, +3 cards, trash any number of cards, +1VP per $1 cost of the cards you trashed.

No one could object to a card like that, right?
Title: Re: Dominion: Menagerie
Post by: greybirdofprey on January 31, 2020, 07:17:56 am
Lions, split pile. You gotta buy 5x Lions before you reach the 5x Christians. Play a Lion when you already have a Christian in play, +3 cards, trash any number of cards, +1VP per $1 cost of the cards you trashed.

No one could object to a card like that, right?

Is that a Daniel in the lion's den reference?
Title: Re: Dominion: Menagerie
Post by: Gubump on January 31, 2020, 10:36:06 am
Lions, split pile. You gotta buy 5x Lions before you reach the 5x Christians. Play a Lion when you already have a Christian in play, +3 cards, trash any number of cards, +1VP per $1 cost of the cards you trashed.

No one could object to a card like that, right?

Is that a Daniel in the lion's den reference?

I thought it was a reference to Nero, who would put Christians clothed in meat into a gladiator pit with a pack of wild animals who would then essentially eat that person alive.
Title: Re: Dominion: Menagerie
Post by: hhelibebcnofnena on February 11, 2020, 10:09:54 am
36 days until projected release date!

(I always like using square numbers as my markings for time -- as we get closer to the date, they come more frequently)
Title: Re: Dominion: Menagerie
Post by: SuperHans on February 11, 2020, 11:06:17 am
36 days until projected release date!

(I always like using square numbers as my markings for time -- as we get closer to the date, they come more frequently)
As is tradition, 36 days for me to figure out storage for this next set.
Title: Re: Dominion: Menagerie
Post by: hhelibebcnofnena on February 11, 2020, 11:28:23 am
36 days until projected release date!

(I always like using square numbers as my markings for time -- as we get closer to the date, they come more frequently)
As is tradition, 36 days for me to figure out storage for this next set.

You figure it out in advance? That's probably smart. I just keep it in the original box until I can figure something out, which I inevitably don't get around to until months later. At least this time I managed to get around to Rennaissance storage a decent amount of time before the new one came out -- I think I didn't get around to Nocturne storage until about a week before Rennaissance.
Title: Re: Dominion: Menagerie
Post by: Tozar on February 11, 2020, 12:41:57 pm
36 days until projected release date!

(I always like using square numbers as my markings for time -- as we get closer to the date, they come more frequently)
As is tradition, 36 days for me to figure out storage for this next set.

You figure it out in advance? That's probably smart. I just keep it in the original box until I can figure something out, which I inevitably don't get around to until months later. At least this time I managed to get around to Rennaissance storage a decent amount of time before the new one came out -- I think I didn't get around to Nocturne storage until about a week before Rennaissance.

Alas, I still have Renaissance in the original box.  :(
Title: Re: Dominion: Menagerie
Post by: Donald X. on February 11, 2020, 04:57:36 pm
With printing started, we continue to expect the expansion within a day or two of March 18.

Previews will be the first week of March.
Title: Re: Dominion: Menagerie
Post by: spineflu on February 13, 2020, 10:28:10 am
from a sleeving-planning perspective, the Events are included in that 400 cards? (or, Card-like things are included in the 400 cards?)
Title: Re: Dominion: Menagerie
Post by: Donald X. on February 13, 2020, 03:40:58 pm
from a sleeving-planning perspective, the Events are included in that 400 cards? (or, Card-like things are included in the 400 cards?)
There are 400 cards, no more no less, and all of them are the usual size. There aren't any you would pass on sleeving.
Title: Re: Dominion: Menagerie
Post by: Doom_Shark on February 13, 2020, 11:08:17 pm
36 days until projected release date!

(I always like using square numbers as my markings for time -- as we get closer to the date, they come more frequently)
As is tradition, 36 days for me to figure out storage for this next set.

You figure it out in advance? That's probably smart. I just keep it in the original box until I can figure something out, which I inevitably don't get around to until months later. At least this time I managed to get around to Rennaissance storage a decent amount of time before the new one came out -- I think I didn't get around to Nocturne storage until about a week before Rennaissance.

Alas, I still have Renaissance in the original box.  :(

You mean you guys don't just keep them all in the original box and pray that you have enough space on the dominion shelf for the next one?
Title: Re: Dominion: Menagerie
Post by: hhelibebcnofnena on February 14, 2020, 11:18:07 am
36 days until projected release date!

(I always like using square numbers as my markings for time -- as we get closer to the date, they come more frequently)
As is tradition, 36 days for me to figure out storage for this next set.

You figure it out in advance? That's probably smart. I just keep it in the original box until I can figure something out, which I inevitably don't get around to until months later. At least this time I managed to get around to Rennaissance storage a decent amount of time before the new one came out -- I think I didn't get around to Nocturne storage until about a week before Rennaissance.

Alas, I still have Renaissance in the original box.  :(

You mean you guys don't just keep them all in the original box and pray that you have enough space on the dominion shelf for the next one?

I guess it's partly for storage, but it's mostly for ease of setup. I'd rather have only two or three boxes out than bring out 12 different boxes because every card/event/landmark/project my randomizer picked is from a different expansion (realistically, that doesn't happen, but I just ran the randomizer program I use a few times and didn't get a single kingdom which used fewer than 6 separate expansions).
Title: Re: Dominion: Menagerie
Post by: flynd on February 16, 2020, 04:28:19 am
There are 400 cards, no more no less, and all of them are the usual size. There aren't any you would pass on sleeving.

As we already know that there are 30 kingdoms, it should be safe to assume that there are at least 30 cards that won't need sleeves for those of us that use a randomizer app (or any other method that won't include shuffling 366 cards).
As I never expect to have more than 4 players, I also leave out the cards that are extra for 5-6 players (i.e. 20 Curses, 4 of each Ruin, 2 Goats, etc.). Including the extra set of base cards from first edition Intrigue, that's almost 14% of the cards that I've left out and therefore haven't sleeved.
Title: Re: Dominion: Menagerie
Post by: crj on February 16, 2020, 12:36:56 pm
Unless this is a subtle hint that Menagerie includes a non-randomising use for the randomisers?
Title: Re: Dominion: Menagerie
Post by: Jeebus on February 16, 2020, 01:17:14 pm
As I never expect to have more than 4 players, I also leave out the cards that are extra for 5-6 players (i.e. 20 Curses, 4 of each Ruin, 2 Goats, etc.).
Actually, if you want to play according to the official rules you need all 50 Ruins. You shuffle them all, then count out how many you need for the game.
Title: Re: Dominion: Menagerie
Post by: flynd on February 16, 2020, 02:03:12 pm
As I never expect to have more than 4 players, I also leave out the cards that are extra for 5-6 players (i.e. 20 Curses, 4 of each Ruin, 2 Goats, etc.).
Actually, if you want to play according to the official rules you need all 50 Ruins. You shuffle them all, then count out how many you need for the game.

True, using just 30 Ruins instead of 50 will have to be classified as a house rule but I think it won't make any major difference, especially in 2 player games which is what I mostly play.
Title: Re: Dominion: Menagerie
Post by: GendoIkari on February 16, 2020, 11:28:50 pm
Something randomly occurred to me. Out of no where I remembered a fan card that created a +card token concept (worked just like Coffers and/or Villagers but for cards). The critique that I had for that makes me wonder if Horses are going to be more than just a vanilla +card token...

The critique being that it's far too rare that you would actually want to save the token for later instead of using it right now. I feel like it would pretty much only come up when you are over-drawing your deck. If you still have cards in your deck, and you have a +card token lying around, aren't you going to just spend that token almost every time? At least in an engine deck, which seems to be most good Dominion decks these days. Sure you could be playing some sort of BM without +buy and already have your (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/4/47/Coin8.png/16px-Coin8.png); but that just doesn't seem common enough.

It's at least enough to make me wonder if Horses will be something other than simply a Coffers for +card.
Title: Re: Dominion: Menagerie
Post by: crj on February 17, 2020, 12:27:03 am
I'd be tempted to disagree (and hope I'll have fun playing in order to find out). Card draw at the start of your turn is way more powerful than draw later, when it comes to consistency. It might well be worth accepting one indifferent turn in order to establish a rhythm of using the horses you got on your previous turn, then saving a fresh set for the next one.
Title: Re: Dominion: Menagerie
Post by: Awaclus on February 17, 2020, 02:32:35 am
If you still have cards in your deck, and you have a +card token lying around, aren't you going to just spend that token almost every time?

That's like trivially not the case. You don't spend your coffers almost every time, you only spend them when they're easier to acquire than actual coins or during specific moments when you get particularly good value from them. You very rarely spend a coffer to hit $6 instead of $5, and similarly, you would very rarely spend a card token to dig for more money to hit $6 instead of $5. The card token has the extra benefit of cycling your deck so you do have an extra incentive to use them before the end of the shuffle compared to coffers, but on the other hand, the prospect of saving you from a potentially-game-losing dud turn is an extra incentive to save them compared to coffers.
Title: Re: Dominion: Menagerie
Post by: GendoIkari on February 17, 2020, 09:38:29 am
The difference is that the Coffer can't do anything except increase your buying power; and you know exactly whether or not you need it at any given moment. Drawing an extra card now could easily be the difference between drawing your deck this turn and not. I'm thinking specifically engines.
Title: Re: Dominion: Menagerie
Post by: Jeebus on February 17, 2020, 10:14:25 am
Uhm... Sinister Plot? Why are you guys talking like a +1 Card token is all theoretical?
Title: Re: Dominion: Menagerie
Post by: GendoIkari on February 17, 2020, 10:33:50 am
Uhm... Sinister Plot? Why are you guys talking like a +1 Card token is all theoretical?

Well the big difference there is that it's not a choice between card now or card later... you get more cards per turn if you take more at once. Taking cards as soon as possible means only getting 1/2 cards per turn.
Title: Re: Dominion: Menagerie
Post by: Jeebus on February 17, 2020, 10:40:52 am
Uhm... Sinister Plot? Why are you guys talking like a +1 Card token is all theoretical?

Well the big difference there is that it's not a choice between card now or card later... you get more cards per turn if you take more at once. Taking cards as soon as possible means only getting 1/2 cards per turn.

Sure, there are differences. But if you would always want to use your +1 Card token and never save it, surely it would be the same for Sinister Plot? You would use it to draw 1 extra every other turn.
Title: Re: Dominion: Menagerie
Post by: GendoIkari on February 17, 2020, 11:16:47 am
Uhm... Sinister Plot? Why are you guys talking like a +1 Card token is all theoretical?

Well the big difference there is that it's not a choice between card now or card later... you get more cards per turn if you take more at once. Taking cards as soon as possible means only getting 1/2 cards per turn.

Sure, there are differences. But if you would always want to use your +1 Card token and never save it, surely it would be the same for Sinister Plot? You would use it to draw 1 extra every other turn.

With Sinister Plot, choosing to use it now means getting fewer total cards from it. With a card/horse token, you get the same number of total cards whether you use it now or later.
Title: Re: Dominion: Menagerie
Post by: Jeebus on February 17, 2020, 12:09:31 pm
With Sinister Plot, choosing to use it now means getting fewer total cards from it. With a card/horse token, you get the same number of total cards whether you use it now or later.

Ok, that's true. With Sinister Plot, you use all your tokens at the expense of a token. I still feel like Sinister Plot tells us that sometimes it's better to wait for a big payout. The relative cost decreases the longer you wait. But you're right that it's not exactly comparable.
Title: Re: Dominion: Menagerie
Post by: Awaclus on February 17, 2020, 01:09:04 pm
The difference is that the Coffer can't do anything except increase your buying power; and you know exactly whether or not you need it at any given moment. Drawing an extra card now could easily be the difference between drawing your deck this turn and not. I'm thinking specifically engines.

The difference between drawing your deck this turn and not is not a very big difference if you've already drawn 90-93% of it anyway. It's a big difference if your starting 5 on a future turn gives you a dud turn.
Title: Re: Dominion: Menagerie
Post by: GendoIkari on February 17, 2020, 01:49:41 pm
Maybe the actual difference is more in uncertainty instead of strength; and the uncertainty mislead me into thinking it was strength... to explain, you always know for sure if you want/need to use a Coffer now; and most of the time that you don't use it, it's because using it would literally add 0 benefit to your current turn (you already had enough money to buy the card you wanted). So the choice isn't as often between getting a benefit now vs later; it's about using the coffer when it actually does give a benefit.

With the card token; not using it now is sacrificing something now for something later. Even if you have enough money to buy what you want; using the card token is still going to give some sort of benefit (maybe as little as cycling; but maybe drawing another attack, or a gainer, or a +buy, etc). And you don't know for sure what you are sacrificing. It's more of a gamble.
Title: Re: Dominion: Menagerie
Post by: Awaclus on February 17, 2020, 04:31:46 pm
Maybe the actual difference is more in uncertainty instead of strength; and the uncertainty mislead me into thinking it was strength... to explain, you always know for sure if you want/need to use a Coffer now; and most of the time that you don't use it, it's because using it would literally add 0 benefit to your current turn (you already had enough money to buy the card you wanted). So the choice isn't as often between getting a benefit now vs later; it's about using the coffer when it actually does give a benefit.

With the card token; not using it now is sacrificing something now for something later. Even if you have enough money to buy what you want; using the card token is still going to give some sort of benefit (maybe as little as cycling; but maybe drawing another attack, or a gainer, or a +buy, etc). And you don't know for sure what you are sacrificing. It's more of a gamble.

It's definitely uncertain when we're talking about it on paper but I suspect that in practice it won't be that hard to make the call. You know what's in your deck so you know what you're hoping to accomplish, and you have at least a rough idea how likely it is that you'll succeed. It's worth noting that now vs. later doesn't always accomplish anything because drawing a Chapel on turn 3 or drawing it on turn 4 is pretty much the same. But if it's t4 and you haven't drawn your Chapel yet, spending a token gives you a 50% chance to save the Chapel from missing the shuffle, which is probably one of the best uses of the token. If it's t4 and you haven't drawn your last two Estates yet, spending a token gives you a 100% chance to save an Estate from missing the shuffle, which is obviously terrible. This is effectively the same scenario that you have in the engine that doesn't overdraw, because in that situation, something misses the shuffle every turn unless you spend the tokens, and whether spending the tokens is good or not depends on what's about to miss the shuffle.