Dominion Strategy Forum
Dominion => Dominion General Discussion => Topic started by: aku_chi on September 04, 2019, 10:56:30 pm
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For the second year in a row, members of the Dominion Discord (https://discord.gg/6Pveru9) are ranked cards in each Dominion set as a community. For the results of the first ThunderDominion, see this thread (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=19402.0).
This year, we used a different process (mostly because it's different, not because it's superior). We ranked cards using a communal insertion sort. The process:
- An expansion is chosen. Initially, all cards are unsorted. We sort cards one at a time in the order they appear on http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/ (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/). Higher cards are better and lower cards are weaker.
- For each card, anyone can vote on which place in the sorted list the card belongs. Voting for a card lasts anywhere from 1 hour to 24 hours depending on how quickly the votes come in, how close the votes are, and my schedule. In practice, cards receive between 15-35 votes.
- At the end of the round, the card will be added to the sorted list in the position of the median vote. Then, we move on to the next card.
2+ months later, we've ranked all of the Dominion cards.
Results
Base (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=19871.msg810178#msg810178)
Intrigue (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=19871.msg810239#msg810239)
Seaside (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=19871.msg810464#msg810464)
Alchemy (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=19871.msg810639#msg810639)
Prosperity (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=19871.msg810757#msg810757)
Cornucopia (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=19871.msg810852#msg810852)
Hinterlands (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=19871.msg811658#msg811658)
Dark Ages (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=19871.msg812235#msg812235)
Guilds (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=19871.msg811813#msg811813)
Adventures (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=19871.msg811294#msg811294)
Empires (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=19871.msg811495#msg811495)
Nocturne (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=19871.msg811885#msg811885)
Renaissance (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=19871.msg812077#msg812077)
Promos (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=19871.msg812175#msg812175)
Events (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=19871.msg810965#msg810965)
Projects (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=19871.msg811204#msg811204)
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Base
1. Chapel
2. Sentry
3. Witch
4.Throne Room
5. Artisan
6. Laboratory
7. Militia
8. Village
9. Smithy
10. Market
11. Remodel
12. Moneylender
13. Festival
14. Council Room
15. Poacher
16. Merchant
17. Bandit
18. Workshop
19. Library
20. Vassal
21. Cellar
22. Moat
23. Gardens
24. Harbinger
25. Mine
26. Bureaucrat
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Intrigue
1. Masquerade
2. Bridge
3. Torturer
4. Steward
5. Upgrade
6. Minion
7. Replace
8. Swindler
9. Ironworks
10. Lurker
11. Nobles
12. Mining Village
13. Patrol
14. Conspirator
15. Mill
16. Courtier
17. Courtyard
18. Diplomat
19. Wishing Well
20. Pawn
21. Baron
22. Trading Post
23. Secret Passage
24. Shanty Town
25. Duke
26. Harem
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IMO upgrade should be 3rd. Maybe 2nd. Upgrade >> steward.
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I continue to be shocked at how underrated Conspirator is. It's a key card on the vast majority of boards.
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I continue to be shocked at how underrated Conspirator is. It's a key card on the vast majority of boards.
True that, a $7 card for $4 is pretty sweet.
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I continue to be shocked at how underrated Conspirator is. It's a key card on the vast majority of boards.
True that, a $7 card for $4 is pretty sweet.
Well, you also have to buy a bunch of enablers to get the $7 effect, but yeah, as I said, it's generally a key card.
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I continue to be shocked at how underrated Conspirator is. It's a key card on the vast majority of boards.
Without the stuff that's above it, it's just a $4 Duchess.
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I continue to be shocked at how underrated Conspirator is. It's a key card on the vast majority of boards.
Without the stuff that's above it, it's just a $4 Duchess.
So? Throne Room is a $4 Confusion without anything else.
Yes, there are some boards where Conspirator can't be activated. Those are not common.
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So? Throne Room is a $4 Confusion without anything else.
The difference is that Throne Room turns the stuff that's below it into a functional deck.
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So? Throne Room is a $4 Confusion without anything else.
The difference is that Throne Room turns the stuff that's below it into a functional deck.
And what is your definition of a "functional deck"?
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So? Throne Room is a $4 Confusion without anything else.
The difference is that Throne Room turns the stuff that's below it into a functional deck.
And what is your definition of a "functional deck"?
A deck where you can put Conspirator in and it won't just be a Duchess.
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I also don't get the Comspirator hype. It's just decent payload. Sure it's cool that it can be sort of a cheap double Peddler or whatever, but this isn't remotely gamebreaking. Throne Room is a Village and payload multiplier and so much more all in one card.
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I continue to be shocked at how underrated Conspirator is. It's a key card on the vast majority of boards.
Without the stuff that's above it, it's just a $4 Duchess.
That's like saying that Smithy without a village in an engine is like a dead card (hey, Conspirator is at least a terminal Silver!). There is always a risk of failing to match engine components.
I also don't get the Comspirator hype. It's just decent payload. Sure it's cool that it can be sort of a cheap double Peddler or whatever, but this isn't remotely gamebreaking. Throne Room is a Village and payload multiplier and so much more all in one card.
Nobody is arguing that Conspirator is overpowered or whatever. But to see it below Mining Village, a weak village plus one-shot, is pretty weird as Conspirator is, after Grand Market, the best payload in an engine after Grand Market.
I agree though that Throne Room is better as it is more versatile.
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I continue to be shocked at how underrated Conspirator is. It's a key card on the vast majority of boards.
Without the stuff that's above it, it's just a $4 Duchess.
That's like saying that Smithy without a village in an engine is like a dead card (hey, Conspirator is at least a terminal Silver!). There is always a risk of failing to match engine components.
RNG is not the point. The point is that you can remove Conspirator from any kingdom where it's present and the kingdom will play out largely the same, but if you remove Smithy, you might just completely invalidate the strongest strategy.
Conspirator is, after Grand Market, the best payload in an engine after Grand Market.
That's just nowhere near being true. Grand Market is an alright card in the absence of any of the actually powerful engine payloads, but it's by no means a great card. Even Conspirator is better than GM.
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The point is that you can remove Conspirator from any kingdom where it's present and the kingdom will play out largely the same,
I disagree.
While you are totally right that draw engines are the normal kind of engine, there are also engines with only cantrips, without cards that net draw.
For example a Kingdom with Village, Market, Workshop, a trasher and Conspirator behaves very differently without Conspirator.
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For example a Kingdom with Village, Market, Workshop, a trasher and Conspirator behaves very differently without Conspirator.
And how often does a kingdom with Village, Market, Workshop, a trasher and Conspirator come up again?
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For example a Kingdom with Village, Market, Workshop, a trasher and Conspirator behaves very differently without Conspirator.
And how often does a kingdom with Village, Market, Workshop, a trasher and Conspirator come up again?
This is a nonsensical point as I could write the same thing with "Smithy" instead of "Conspirator".
I obviously just included the usual components that make an engine viable to illustrate that there are draw as well as cantrips engines.
I don't argue that the latter appear as often as the former or that they even are as good as the former. But they exist. Not ever Kingdom boils down to "Village variant plus Smithy variant".
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For example a Kingdom with Village, Market, Workshop, a trasher and Conspirator behaves very differently without Conspirator.
And how often does a kingdom with Village, Market, Workshop, a trasher and Conspirator come up again?
This is a nonsensical point as I could write the same thing with "Smithy" instead of "Conspirator".
I obviously just included the usual components that make an engine viable to illustrate that there are draw as well as cantrips engines.
I don't argue that the latter appear as often as the former or that they even are as good as the former. But they exist. Not ever Kingdom boils down to "Village variant plus Smithy variant".
If I challenged you into a match where Conspirator is always present and the only rule is that I'm not allowed to buy or intentionally gain it, how many games out of six do you think you would win?
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Seaside
1. Ambassador
2. Wharf
3. Ghost Ship
4. Outpost
5. Fishing Village
6. Caravan
7. Bazaar
8. Lookout
9. Smugglers
10. Lighthouse
11. Sea Hag
12. Salvager
13. Warehouse
14. Native Village
15. Tactician
16. Haven
17. Treasury
18. Island
19. Explorer
20. Cutpurse
21. Treasure Map
22. Pearl Diver
23. Embargo
24. Merchant Ship
25. Pirate Ship
26. Navigator
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The play stats for Mining Village (https://onedrive.live.com/?authkey=%21AJzkg625QzgBbtY&v=photos&cid=4375584A8C199C03&id=4375584A8C199C03%215114&parId=4375584A8C199C03%215347&o=OneUp) and Conspirator (https://onedrive.live.com/?authkey=%21AJzkg625QzgBbtY&v=photos&cid=4375584A8C199C03&id=4375584A8C199C03%214925&parId=4375584A8C199C03%215347&o=OneUp)are remarkably similar.
The winner gains at least one copy of Mining Village / Conspirator in 69% / 69% of games, and an average of 2.6 / 2.4 copies. Games with Mining Village are slightly faster than average but end with slightly below-average VP. Games with Conspirator are approximately average in game length and VP at game end. Mining Village and Conspirator seem to have a very similar power level. I think the biggest Intrigue misrank is Courtyard, which should probably be above Mining Village.
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Seaside
1. Ambassador
2. Wharf
3. Ghost Ship
4. Outpost
5. Fishing Village
6. Caravan
7. Bazaar
8. Lookout
9. Smugglers
10. Lighthouse
11. Sea Hag
12. Salvager
13. Warehouse
14. Native Village
15. Tactician
16. Haven
17. Treasury
18. Island
19. Explorer
20. Cutpurse
21. Treasure Map
22. Pearl Diver
23. Embargo
24. Merchant Ship
25. Pirate Ship
26. Navigator
Some of these bottom ones seem odd to me. Cutpurse, Island, and Embargo seem much more useable to me than Treasure map and Explorer. (Rank 18-23)
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Seaside
1. Ambassador
2. Wharf
3. Ghost Ship
4. Outpost
5. Fishing Village
6. Caravan
7. Bazaar
8. Lookout
9. Smugglers
10. Lighthouse
11. Sea Hag
12. Salvager
13. Warehouse
14. Native Village
15. Tactician
16. Haven
17. Treasury
18. Island
19. Explorer
20. Cutpurse
21. Treasure Map
22. Pearl Diver
23. Embargo
24. Merchant Ship
25. Pirate Ship
26. Navigator
Some of these bottom ones seem odd to me. Cutpurse, Island, and Embargo seem much more useable to me than Treasure map and Explorer. (Rank 18-23)
Island is higher than TM or Explorer.
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Seaside
1. Ambassador
2. Wharf
3. Ghost Ship
4. Outpost
5. Fishing Village
6. Caravan
7. Bazaar
8. Lookout
9. Smugglers
10. Lighthouse
11. Sea Hag
12. Salvager
13. Warehouse
14. Native Village
15. Tactician
16. Haven
17. Treasury
18. Island
19. Explorer
20. Cutpurse
21. Treasure Map
22. Pearl Diver
23. Embargo
24. Merchant Ship
25. Pirate Ship
26. Navigator
Some of these bottom ones seem odd to me. Cutpurse, Island, and Embargo seem much more useable to me than Treasure map and Explorer. (Rank 18-23)
Island is higher than TM or Explorer.
Yes I can read. I'm saying it seems much better, and that that general cluster of low ranked cards seems odd to me.
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Alchemy
1. Scrying Pool
2. Possession
3. Familiar
4. Apprentice
5. University
6. Vineyard
7. Alchemist
8. Apothecary
9. Golem
10. Herbalist
11. Transmute
12. Philosopher's Stone
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Seaside
1. Ambassador
2. Wharf
3. Ghost Ship
4. Outpost
5. Fishing Village
6. Caravan
7. Bazaar
8. Lookout
9. Smugglers
10. Lighthouse
11. Sea Hag
12. Salvager
13. Warehouse
14. Native Village
15. Tactician
16. Haven
17. Treasury
18. Island
19. Explorer
20. Cutpurse
21. Treasure Map
22. Pearl Diver
23. Embargo
24. Merchant Ship
25. Pirate Ship
26. Navigator
Some of these bottom ones seem odd to me. Cutpurse, Island, and Embargo seem much more useable to me than Treasure map and Explorer. (Rank 18-23)
Island is higher than TM or Explorer.
Yes I can read. I'm saying it seems much better, and that that general cluster of low ranked cards seems odd to me.
I don't think Island is underrated here. Its two uses are:
1. Early game "trashing". Generally a bad idea as pretty much any other way to thin is more efficient, and even if there's no other way you're still probably wasting valuable time.
2. Getting expensive Victory cards out of the way. This is usually much less useful than it seems. The game continues to favor megaturn engines where your green phase doesn't last long.
I'm sort of surprised to see Merchant Ship so low, but it's hard to disagree with that placement. It's the sort of thing you only get if there's nothing else at that price point.
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I have a firm belief that the +1 Buy of Wharf should be on Merchant Ship. I think it would balance out the power between those too.
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I have a firm belief that the +1 Buy of Wharf should be on Merchant Ship. I think it would balance out the power between those too.
Wharf would still be way better, simply because guaranteed +Cards at the start of your turn is ridiculously valuable and +$ isn't, but this would at least prevent it from looking absolutely pathetic like it does now.
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Trading Post is way too low.
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Prosperity
1. Goons
2. King's Court
3. Mountebank
4. Worker's Village
5. Grand Market
6. Peddler
7. Quarry
8. City
9. Watchtower
10. Expand
11. Rabble
12. Forge
13. Mint
14. Bishop
15. Monument
16. Bank
17. Hoard
18. Loan
19. Vault
20. Talisman
21. Trade Route
22. Venture
23. Contraband
24. Royal Seal
25. Counting House
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King's Court not #1? Sacrilege!
I don't get the hype over Worker's Village. It's useful, but not exactly game-changing (at least not any more than any other Village or +Buy).
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King's Court not #1? Sacrilege!
I don't get the hype over Worker's Village. It's useful, but not exactly game-changing (at least not any more than any other Village or +Buy).
But it's a village *and* a buy. Cards that give you two of the critical pieces of an engine are generally very strong.
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King's Court not #1? Sacrilege!
I don't get the hype over Worker's Village. It's useful, but not exactly game-changing (at least not any more than any other Village or +Buy).
Worker's Village is one of the best villages in the game, I think its placement is fine.
There's a bunch of kingdoms where the +Buy is either on a terminal card, or on a non-terminal card you have to go out of your way to pick up. Worker's Village means you basically don't have to think about buys, because you're going to get a bunch of them for free when picking up your +Actions. Because Worker's Village draws a card, it doesn't hurt to overload on them either.
I'm not sure how Venture made it over Royal Seal. Everything down there is a bit of a crapshoot but I'd move Venture to right above Counting House and shift everything else up.
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The main underrated cards are Monument, and as usual, Loan and Trade Route.
King's Court not #1? Sacrilege!
I don't get the hype over Worker's Village. It's useful, but not exactly game-changing (at least not any more than any other Village or +Buy).
Prosperity's power level is very low on average, so any antiterminal is naturally going to be near the top of the list.
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Cornucopia
1. Tournament
2. Remake
3. Hunting Party
4. Menagerie
5. Horn of Plenty
6. Hamlet
7. Farming Village
8. Young Witch
9. Jester
10. Fairgrounds
11. Horse Traders
12. Fortune Teller
13. Harvest
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Cornucopia
1. Tournament
2. Remake
3. Hunting Party
4. Menagerie
5. Horn of Plenty
6. Hamlet
7. Farming Village
8. Young Witch
9. Jester
10. Fairgrounds
11. Horse Traders
12. Fortune Teller
13. Harvest
I'd agree with almost all of this except Tournament and Remake should be swapped and Horn of Plenty could maybe be a little higher. As much as I like Jester, I think I agree with its placement.
Also, I always thought Grand Market was one of the strongest cards in the game. Seeing that people value Worker's Village more than Grand Market is ...interesting.
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I'd put Young Witch above Farming Village and Fairgrounds above Jester.
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Also, I always thought Grand Market was one of the strongest cards in the game. Seeing that people value Worker's Village more than Grand Market is ...interesting.
Isn't this factored relative to the card cost. In most situations, like you, I'd much rather have a stack of Grand Markets in my deck than Worker's villages (although my view might change if there is strong attacking draw on the board - say torturer), but this is somewhat offset by the difficulty of hitting six without a copper in play to get hold of a first Grand Market. The no copper requirement also often reduces what can be spent on the other buys during the same turn - if this happens, it effectively increases the cost of a GM by the value of coins you can't play.
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Events
1. Donate
2. Save
3. Pathfinding
4. Lost Arts
5. Inheritance
6. Ferry
7. Dominate
8. Triumph
9. Bonfire
10. Summon
11. Mission
12. Travelling Fair
13. Seaway
14. Plan
15. Alms
16. Training
17. Ball
18. Windfall
19. Borrow
20. Advance
21. Expedition
22. Salt the Earth
23. Delve
24. Trade
25. Conquest
26. Scouting Party
27. Pilgrimage
28. Wedding
29. Banquet
30. Quest
31. Tax
32. Raid
33. Ritual
34. Annex
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Cornucopia
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This list, to me, is a testament to how balanced this expansion is. Tournament and Remake are strong cards without turning the game to be about them and nothing else. Horse Traders is still a decent card with an unconditional reaction to attacks, Jester is an outright good card which I get very often.
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Cornucopia
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This list, to me, is a testament to how balanced this expansion is. Tournament and Remake are strong cards without turning the game to be about them and nothing else. Horse Traders is still a decent card with an unconditional reaction to attacks, Jester is an outright good card which I get very often.
If you mean that they are not monolithic like Rebuild is when it's good, sure. If you are trying to say that these cards are good without warping the game around them no, going for Tournament and its prizes is usually better than skipping them.
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Cornucopia
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This list, to me, is a testament to how balanced this expansion is. Tournament and Remake are strong cards without turning the game to be about them and nothing else. Horse Traders is still a decent card with an unconditional reaction to attacks, Jester is an outright good card which I get very often.
Harvest is a total dud and any case it had for not being a dud was destroyed by the time Empires came out (with Legionary and Gladiator).
I can't remember the last time I've seen someone buy a fortune teller but it's an ok enough design I guess.
Hunting Party can be monolithic and encourages low variety decks (Hunting Party+X) and Tournament is overly swingy.
Cornucopia could do with an update for sure
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Hunting Party can be monolithic and encourages low variety decks (Hunting Party+X)
This what I find really ironic about the card, given what its theme is supposed to be. Though Hunting Party + X can be beaten by any decent engine.
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Cornucopia
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If you mean that they are not monolithic like Rebuild is when it's good, sure. If you are trying to say that these cards are good without warping the game around them no, going for Tournament and its prizes is usually better than skipping them.
While I agree that Tournament (along with Remake and Hunting Party) is almost never ignorable, I think it's not obvious and very much depends on the kingdom as to how to "go for" Tournament without ending up with a deck full of Ruined Villages. It's easier to see how you can make Rebuild good.
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Cornucopia
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If you mean that they are not monolithic like Rebuild is when it's good, sure. If you are trying to say that these cards are good without warping the game around them no, going for Tournament and its prizes is usually better than skipping them.
While I agree that Tournament (along with Remake and Hunting Party) is almost never ignorable, I think it's not obvious and very much depends on the kingdom as to how to "go for" Tournament without ending up with a deck full of Ruined Villages. It's easier to see how you can make Rebuild good.
Tournament however warps the game by affecting how good early provinces are. Ignoring its influence means your opponent doesn't get their peddlers turned to Ruined villages often enough, and them playing followers first makes tournament harder to block.
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Events
19. Borrow
I would have placed this higher. There is hardly a game where I don't use it once or twice, whereas Plan/Seaway/Windfall are much more situational (and admittedly a bit more of a game-changer if they are needed).
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Projects
1. Cathedral
2. Sinister Plot
3. Academy
4. Sewers
5. Citadel
6. Star Chart
7. Innovation
8. Silos
9. Canal
10. Crop Rotation
11. Pageant
12. Guildhall
13. Piazza
14. Barracks
15. Fleet
16. Capitalism
17. Exploration
18. Fair
19. City Gate
20. Road Network
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I think Cathedral is a hair overrated. It's game-breakingly good, but discard attacks are a huge counter, so much so that you should probably avoid it on a board with them. Still might be the best project, though, and certainly the most game-warping.
Capitalism is underrated by many ranks.
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Adventures
Peasant
Page
Bridge Troll
Magpie
Lost City
Gear
Dungeon
Port
Raze
Amulet
Haunted Woods
Storyteller
Transmogrify
Relic
Royal Carriage
Ranger
Swamp Hag
Artificer
Hireling
Coin of the Realm
Ratcatcher
Distant Lands
Messenger
Wine Merchant
Duplicate
Treasure Trove
Guide
Giant
Caravan Guard
Miser
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Whoa, Miser at the very bottom? I certainly disagree with that! I've had numerous games where it was awesome payload.
I think Messenger is the clear bottom card. It's a combination of two terrible cards from Base First Edition with a weak conditional on-Buy.
I also don't know why Coin of the Realm is so low. It was +Villagers before +Villagers existed.
Good to see Storyteller at a higher position than usual. I've always thought it was underrated.
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Why is Hireling so low? It's single-handedly warped every game I've played with it, more so than any other card, even including things like Chapel or Cathedral!
Royal Carriage should also be way higher. It's the second strongest Throne Room variant next to King's Court, IMO.
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Why is Hireling so low?
Because it's an expensive Laboratory.
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Hireling's just a bit slow. It's the same reason that Miser's low.
Hireling = $6 and a terminal action to get an extra card each turn. It's a powerful effect that is caught between two awkward positions: if the draw is very good, you're better off buying something else. If the draw is very bad, it takes you too long to set up your Hirelings. It's best around that middle zone where the cycling is okay and you need the Hireling draw to do something interesting, which isn't as good as cards where you always need their effects (like Chapel).
Miser = a similar thing, where if you can afford to slowly thin out Copper with Miser, it's good, but sometimes you can't.
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Why is Hireling so low?
You don't want a $6 card which misses so many reshuffles.
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Of course this means that both Miser and Hireling are great cards for the game, meaning that they are great designs. Because it's not always obvious whether to go for them.
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Miser = a similar thing, where if you can afford to slowly thin out Copper with Miser, it's good, but sometimes you can't.
It's slow if you only buy one of them, which you shouldn't do if it's a game where Miser is good.
I agree that Hireling has a slowness problem, though. You have to wait a turn, and spend an Action and card slot on it before it actually does anything.
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Miser = a similar thing, where if you can afford to slowly thin out Copper with Miser, it's good, but sometimes you can't.
It's slow if you only buy one of them, which you shouldn't do if it's a game where Miser is good.
I agree that Hireling has a slowness problem, though. You have to wait a turn, and spend an Action and card slot on it before it actually does anything.
Miser is still slow even if you buy more than one of them. Spending your terminal space on Misers is a real opportunity cost for deckbuilding. The slowness is relative to what else you could be spending those terminals on, not the absolute speed of getting Coppers onto your Tavern mat and getting $ for it.
Edit: to quickly defend Messenger a bit...
Without the on-buy, Messenger would indeed be pretty bad. It would still get picked up for +Buy reasons, but it isn't where you want to be.
The on-buy is the thing that stops Messenger from being bad. Very broadly, in an engine mirror, it's common for players to continually be evaluating trade-offs between buying-that-Village and buying-that-economy, where economy = Silver or terminal Silver or some other thing. You often hit a sort of mini-race, where you're trying to not lose the Village split, but also balance it with picking up economy and other Actions. What Messenger does is let you pick up economy, while making the Village race end faster. It doesn't help you win the Village split, but it makes it hurt less to detour for economy.
Plus sometimes there's only 1 Action in the pile you're Messengering. You gain first so in that case you get the action for free.
Really the main problem is that the effect is stapled to a Woodcutter-Chancellor.
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Miser = a similar thing, where if you can afford to slowly thin out Copper with Miser, it's good, but sometimes you can't.
It's slow if you only buy one of them, which you shouldn't do if it's a game where Miser is good.
I agree that Hireling has a slowness problem, though. You have to wait a turn, and spend an Action and card slot on it before it actually does anything.
Miser is still slow even if you buy more than one of them. Spending your terminal space on Misers is a real opportunity cost for deckbuilding. The slowness is relative to what else you could be spending those terminals on, not the absolute speed of getting Coppers onto your Tavern mat and getting $ for it.
Edit: to quickly defend Messenger a bit...
Without the on-buy, Messenger would indeed be pretty bad. It would still get picked up for +Buy reasons, but it isn't where you want to be.
The on-buy is the thing that stops Messenger from being bad. Very broadly, in an engine mirror, it's common for players to continually be evaluating trade-offs between buying-that-Village and buying-that-economy, where economy = Silver or terminal Silver or some other thing. You often hit a sort of mini-race, where you're trying to not lose the Village split, but also balance it with picking up economy and other Actions. What Messenger does is let you pick up economy, while making the Village race end faster. It doesn't help you win the Village split, but it makes it hurt less to detour for economy.
Plus sometimes there's only 1 Action in the pile you're Messengering. You gain first so in that case you get the action for free.
Really the main problem is that the effect is stapled to a Woodcutter-Chancellor.
If I wanted the +buy enough to get messenger, I will gladly take the Chancellor effect too. It makes the messenger open more attractive due to the chance to high roll with a messenger in the top hand of the shuffle.
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The on-buy is the thing that stops Messenger from being bad. Very broadly, in an engine mirror, it's common for players to continually be evaluating trade-offs between buying-that-Village and buying-that-economy, where economy = Silver or terminal Silver or some other thing. You often hit a sort of mini-race, where you're trying to not lose the Village split, but also balance it with picking up economy and other Actions. What Messenger does is let you pick up economy, while making the Village race end faster. It doesn't help you win the Village split, but it makes it hurt less to detour for economy.
I'm not understanding how this is an overall benefit for you. Absent split/one-card pile situations, your opponent gets all of the same benefits.
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The on-buy is the thing that stops Messenger from being bad.
Apart from the +buy, I am looking for situations where I can get my opponent a second specimen of a card I presume he only wants once (say, Moneylender, Chapel, Potion). This sometimes discourages both players from making the first move towards Moneylender etc.
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Of course this means that both Miser and Hireling are great cards for the game, meaning that they are great designs. Because it's not always obvious whether to go for them.
I would go for Hirelings in slogs. A 7th turn first Hireling is super good if the game is expected to last 22 turns but less effective if the game ends after 12 turns. Spikes like Wine Merchant or Capital would be cards to look out for in these kingdoms. Tactician, not so much, as he makes you discard the Hireling-drawn card along with the others.
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The on-buy is the thing that stops Messenger from being bad. Very broadly, in an engine mirror, it's common for players to continually be evaluating trade-offs between buying-that-Village and buying-that-economy, where economy = Silver or terminal Silver or some other thing. You often hit a sort of mini-race, where you're trying to not lose the Village split, but also balance it with picking up economy and other Actions. What Messenger does is let you pick up economy, while making the Village race end faster. It doesn't help you win the Village split, but it makes it hurt less to detour for economy.
I'm not understanding how this is an overall benefit for you. Absent split/one-card pile situations, your opponent gets all of the same benefits.
You're effectively changing the rules of the game to be in your favor. If I know that you can buy 2 Villages a turn and I can only buy 1, then assuming I can handle the Messenger itself, it's in my interest to use Messenger to hand out 1-for-1 Villages until the pile runs out, to reduce how much I lose the split by. That's a somewhat contrived example, but it's just a more extreme version of the point I was trying to make above. If you pick up economy that doesn't help you get Villages faster, then you're going to be getting Villages slower than your opponent, so a 1-for-1 trade is slightly good for you.
The whole point of the Messenger on-buy is that if you use it, the effect isn't actually symmetrical - you get more out of the on-buy than your opponent gets out of it. Things ipofanes mentioned (giving out a 2nd Chapel when you don't have yours yet) are an example of this. It's not a particularly strong effect (Messenger deserves to be pretty low), but it's absolutely worth considering.
Plus the existence of the on-buy usually comes into play when considering 3-piles - makes it hard to treat Messenger like a blank card.
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Empires
1. Villa
2. Encampment/Plunder
3. Groundskeeper
4. City Quarter
5. Overlord
6. Catapult/Rocks
7. Crown
8. Forum
9. Enchantress
10. Wild Hunt
11. Archive
12. Chariot Race
13. Patrician/Emporium
14. Sacrifice
15. Legionary
16. Castles
17. Charm
18. Engineer
19. Farmers' Market
20. Capital
21. Temple
22. Settlers/Bustling Village
23. Gladiator/Fortune
24. Royal Blacksmith
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Wow, a lot of stuff I disagree with here. Overlord and Crown are overrated, Farmers' Market and Temple are underrated.
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Hinterlands
1. Margrave
2. Highway
3. Border Village
4. Stables
5. Spice Merchant
6. Haggler
7. Jack of all Trades
8. Scheme
9. Crossroads
10. Develop
11. Ill-Gotten Gains
12. Fool's Gold
13. Inn
14. Embassy
15. Oracle
16. Cartographer
17. Nomad Camp
18. Tunnel
19. Farmland
20. Oasis
21. Trader
22. Silk Road
23. Duchess
24. Noble Brigand
25. Mandarin
26. Cache
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Scheme, Fool's Gold, and Oracle should all be higher IMO, and Duchess should be lower, but other than that, I'd say this list is very accurate to my opinion.
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Yes, I have no complaints here. Duchess could maybe be lower, but the cards below it are so awful that I wouldn't insist on it.
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Yes, I have no complaints here. Duchess could maybe be lower, but the cards below it are so awful that I wouldn't insist on it.
I will pick up Noble Brigand and Mandarin more often than I’ll grab a free Duchess
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Guilds
1. Butcher
2. Stonemason
3. Herald
4. Plaza
5. Advisor
6. Doctor
7. Journeyman
8. Merchant Guild
9. Soothsayer
10. Baker
11. Candlestick Maker
12. Masterpiece
13. Taxman
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I'd put Advisor lower. And Masterpiece should be at the bottom.
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I'd put Advisor lower. And Masterpiece should be at the bottom.
On many boards, Advisor is a $4 Lab. I actually think it should be higher than plaza. I agree on Masterpiece being last.
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I'd have expected Merchant Guild higher and Doctor (who is awful with Shelters) lower.
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Nocturne
1. Vampire
2. Den of Sin
3. Cursed Village
4. Exorcist
5. Shepherd
6. Blessed Village
7. Ghost Town
8. Pixie
9. Tragic Hero
10. Monastery
11. Cemetery
12. Devil's Workshop
13. Werewolf
14. Necromancer
15. Tormentor
16. Skulk
17. Pooka
18. Secret Cave
19. Changeling
20. Conclave
21. Sacred Grove
22. Cobbler
23. Guardian
24. Leprechaun
25. Idol
26. Night Watchman
27. Tracker
28. Druid
29. Faithful Hound
30. Bard
31. Fool
32. Crypt
33. Raider
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This is the most wrong list, I think. Shepherd is too high. Necromancer is too high. Cobbler is too low. Idol is way too low. I think Fool is too low (but I might be overestimating it).
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Tragic Hero is way too high IMO. It's priced the same as Margrave, i.e. as if being forced to trash it for a Treasure is a bonus, when that's actually a drawback IMHO (unless you're playing with Platinums + Colonies).
I agree with Jeebus about this being the most wrong list, albeit for different reasons. I agree with the list that Cobbler is bad, but Guardian, Shepherd, and Necromancer are too high (especially with the recent nerfs to Necro's most OP combos, Pillage and Death Cart), and Idol, Conclave, and Sacred Grove are way too low. And those are just the issues that stick out to me the most.
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Tragic Hero is way too high IMO. It's priced the same as Margrave, i.e. as if being forced to trash it for a Treasure is a bonus, when that's actually a drawback IMHO (unless you're playing with Platinums + Colonies).
Precisely. I'll take a Smithy over a yellow Curse Gold, thank you very much.
Blessed Village is also way overrated.
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Tragic Hero is way too high IMO. It's priced the same as Margrave, i.e. as if being forced to trash it for a Treasure is a bonus, when that's actually a drawback IMHO (unless you're playing with Platinums + Colonies).
Precisely. I'll take a Smithy over a yellow Curse Gold, thank you very much.
Blessed Village is also way overrated.
Somehow I didn't even notice that Blessed Village was so high. I wouldn't say it's WAY overrated, but it's on the worse side of the (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/2/2a/Coin4.png/16px-Coin4.png) Villages IMO, and is certainly too high in this list.
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Tragic Hero is way too high IMO. It's priced the same as Margrave, i.e. as if being forced to trash it for a Treasure is a bonus, when that's actually a drawback IMHO (unless you're playing with Platinums + Colonies).
Precisely. I'll take a Smithy over a yellow Curse Gold, thank you very much.
Blessed Village is also way overrated.
So tragic hero, it turns out smithy with a +buy is so good that you will take tragic hero for that effect a lot, even if you have to work to keep the TH from trashing itself. And if you can't keep the TH alive, well, the treasure gain in a vacuum it sounds bad, but often you are drawing that treasure the same turn that TH is trashed. Very good for ramping up your deck to the point where the TH is missed less. But really, you'll likely be using that treasure (usually gold) to help buy more THs, and then you get a big turn at endgame once you trash those ones. It's kind of like procession in the endgame, where you trash your deck to smithereens but you don't care because it's the last couple of turns and you need to go all out.
Blessed Village is also quite strong for a village. Most villages do nothing before you have the terminal action density to make the +2 actions on them relevant. Not blessed village though. You get the boons within the next turn, helping along your building while getting the village that you know you'll need soon anyway.
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In a Big Money deck, the "trash this for a Treasure" bonus will never trigger, which leaves Tragic Hero as just a worse Margrave. So TH sucks in Big Money.
In an engine deck, TH actively anti-synergizes with engines because it replaces a powerful engine component (itself) with a Treasure card that, sure, acts as part of the payload, but chances are, you bought a TH because you need drawing over money, so it removes something that you need from your deck while giving you a card that you don't need in return. So TH sucks in Engines.
It's no Scout-tier, but I would say TH is easily F-tier. I would've placed it dead last in Nocturne in a heartbeat.
P.S.: My second point for TH only applies w/o Platinums + Colonies. If you're playing with Platinums + Colonies, then TH is B or A tier.
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95+% cards are worse than margrave. That is really is no Argument against tragic hero.
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95+% cards are worse than margrave. That is really is no Argument against tragic hero.
It's a bit like saying Chapel sucks because Donate exists.
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95+% cards are worse than margrave. That is really is no Argument against tragic hero.
Most $5 cards are not worse than Smithy.
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In a Big Money deck, the "trash this for a Treasure" bonus will never trigger, which leaves Tragic Hero as just a worse Margrave. So TH sucks in Big Money.
In an engine deck, TH actively anti-synergizes with engines because it replaces a powerful engine component (itself) with a Treasure card that, sure, acts as part of the payload, but chances are, you bought a TH because you need drawing over money, so it removes something that you need from your deck while giving you a card that you don't need in return. So TH sucks in Engines.
It's no Scout-tier, but I would say TH is easily F-tier. I would've placed it dead last in Nocturne in a heartbeat.
P.S.: My second point for TH only applies w/o Platinums + Colonies. If you're playing with Platinums + Colonies, then TH is B or A tier.
Big Money is fine keeping the smithy +buy, if for some reason big money is actually relevant. And it costs $5, so that's something to buy if you don't have $6. And it really depends on the board if there is no way to activate it. Maybe there is Flag Bearer or something.
You say TH sucks in engines because you lose the ability to draw cards with it once it activates (assuming you can't prevent that indefinitely due to the specifics of the engine being played). That would be a problem if the game were to last "forever". But the game doesn't last forever. You do get to draw with TH, just not forever. Heck, you can look at it as a one shot +3 cards +1 buy that gives you a gold and still see value in that.
There is a difference between an engine wanting gold (for lack of better treasure) for $5, and an engine wanting a +3 cards +1 buy that turns into a gold for $5. The former is just an extra stop card that helps you buy things The latter helps you get a good turn relative to anything else you might be doing on that board before you get the gold. With that good turn, you can better tune your engine to make it more reliable or more explosive. You don't have to worry about payload so much anymore because TH covered that for you. If there is no other draw on the board, that +3 cards and +1 buy, even if temporary, is likely going to vault you ahead of an opponent that isn't increasing their hand size.
One trick is to just buy more THs. When you buy the second TH after drawing your deck, it's more like it costs $2 instead of $5 thanks to the gold it gains. The next one kinda costs -$1, because now you have two golds that together give $6. You can keep doing this, getting a further discount on future THs thanks to the golds gained by the last one. In the meantime, you are doing whatever else your engine does, eased by the albeit temporary draw of TH. When you finally decide to stop buying TH, well now you have a bunch of extra money with your golds that the THs gained you, plus whatever +buy you got from your last THs.
It's a matter of context. I would not say no to a magical Gold that was added to my hand as a sixth card every turn vs. nothing. Treasures like Gold are often problematic to for an engine because there might not be enough draw available on the board to draw the treasure and everything else that needs to be drawn. But the treasures gained by TH are always gained in the presence of something that can draw a bunch of cards: TH (until they run out).
The base case for TH is quite good, and you should get comfortable with understanding how it works out in games rather than always picking every other draw card over it.
Of course, TH isn't good everywhere. It's not good when you can only play one terminal each turn and you don't want that terminal to be a smithy with +buy for whatever reason. It's not good if you are going to need draw that lasts over many turns due to the particular nature of the board, for example one focusing on a repeatable source of VP tokens, or one that is using brutal attacks and both players are struggling to draw the cards they need to stay afloat.
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One trick is to just buy more THs. When you buy the second TH after drawing your deck, it's more like it costs $2 instead of $5 thanks to the gold it gains. The next one kinda costs -$1, because now you have two golds that together give $6.
I don't think this is an accurate assessment unless you keep overdrawing. If you're going to include the effect of the Golds in your deck so that each TH is cheaper, you have to also consider that Gold is a stop card. So if you you're not overdrawing, the second TH is +2 cards instead of +3 cards, and the third one is +1 card.
I nevertheless agree that TH sometimes is very good and makes for an explosive finish kind of like Procession cam do. Other times the trashing and Gold is mainly a drawback. How good TH is is more kingdom dependent than most terminal draw.
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One trick is to just buy more THs. When you buy the second TH after drawing your deck, it's more like it costs $2 instead of $5 thanks to the gold it gains. The next one kinda costs -$1, because now you have two golds that together give $6.
I don't think this is an accurate assessment unless you keep overdrawing. If you're going to include the effect of the Golds in your deck so that each TH is cheaper, you have to also consider that Gold is a stop card. So if you you're not overdrawing, the second TH is +2 cards instead of +3 cards, and the third one is +1 card.
This is true. It therefore matters what the rest of your deck is doing to make up for that. For TH to even be triggers presumes that there could be another good source of draw to get, and the TH on-play effect actively helps your deck keep rolling to continue strengthening it while it's getting treasure.
The TH triggers are mainly a nuisance if you incidentally have a 6 card hard due to stuff like Save or an opponent's Soothsayer or something else non-stackable.
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markusin, you're talking like you either draw nothing at all or your entire deck when you suggest "just buy more THs."
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95+% cards are worse than margrave. That is really is no Argument against tragic hero.
It's a bit like saying Chapel sucks because Donate exists.
Except that Donate doesn't cost (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/3/3d/Coin2.png/16px-Coin2.png), and Chapel doesn't trash itself for a Silver.
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95+% cards are worse than margrave. That is really is no Argument against tragic hero.
There are, however, no cards that are strictly worse than Margrave at the same cost. Except for Tragic Hero in BM decks.
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markusin, you're talking like you either draw nothing at all or your entire deck when you suggest "just buy more THs."
Can you elaborate what you mean here?
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markusin, you're talking like you either draw nothing at all or your entire deck when you suggest "just buy more THs."
Can you elaborate what you mean here?
often you are drawing that treasure the same turn that TH is trashed.
That only happens reliably when you are drawing your deck, but you only need a net handsize increase of one before playing your TH to trash your TH into a Gold, so you can very easily draw up to a handsize of 8 without having the cards necessary to draw more cards. I don't believe that using the word "often" is even a little justified here, especially since gaining that treasure occurs AFTER drawing the cards from TH.
You're only going to be reliably drawing your Gold the same turn you trash your TH if you either have a very thin deck or if each turn you're either drawing next to nothing or a ton of cards with no in-between.
I'll admit that calling it F-tier was probably an exaggeration, but it's definitely not an A-tier like its ranking suggests. I'm not saying that TH is NEVER good (every Kingdom card CAN be good, even Scout), but it is easily the worst Smithy variant IMO.
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In a Big Money deck, the "trash this for a Treasure" bonus will never trigger, which leaves Tragic Hero as just a worse Margrave. So TH sucks in Big Money.
"A worse Margrave" is a really good card, dude. Draw and Buy in one action is awesome.
It's no Scout-tier, but I would say TH is easily F-tier. I would've placed it dead last in Nocturne in a heartbeat.
So there's tons of utility in TH in an engine. In a lot of cases you just play it like a Draw To X card that can blow itself up for a bonus. Play TH, play a little payload and/or discarding some stuff, play another, keep going.
But really I think you're missing the utility of blowing it up. Getting a little extra payload and a Buy to use that turn is pretty good - particularly if you have a way to just gain Tragic Heroes. Or if it's the last turn or whatever. Sure you only draw the Treasure in a deck you've already nearly finished drawing... but I mean, you're blowing it up, so you already have to be halfway there right?
P.S.: My second point for TH only applies w/o Platinums + Colonies. If you're playing with Platinums + Colonies, then TH is B or A tier.
You've got a lot of learning left, man.
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markusin, you're talking like you either draw nothing at all or your entire deck when you suggest "just buy more THs."
Can you elaborate what you mean here?
often you are drawing that treasure the same turn that TH is trashed.
That only happens reliably when you are drawing your deck, but you only need a net handsize increase of one before playing your TH to trash your TH into a Gold, so you can very easily draw up to a handsize of 8 without having the cards necessary to draw more cards. I don't believe that using the word "often" is even a little justified here, especially since gaining that treasure occurs AFTER drawing the cards from TH.
You're only going to be reliably drawing your Gold the same turn you trash your TH if you either have a very thin deck or if each turn you're either drawing next to nothing or a ton of cards with no in-between.
I'll admit that calling it F-tier was probably an exaggeration, but it's definitely not an A-tier like its ranking suggests. I'm not saying that TH is NEVER good (every Kingdom card CAN be good, even Scout), but it is easily the worst Smithy variant IMO.
Ah okay, that makes it clear. Do note though, that the first TH can get you to a handsize of 7 without blowing up, and the next TH after that gets you to 9 cards. Playing more than one TH in a turn implies there is some sort of village available, and that can potentially be used to draw the treasure you gain. That or you blow up two THs to get to 11 cards, but that is very bold and sounds more like endgame territory.
We may have different definitions of "often", and it may sound too strong for you but not for me. I see it as, any village/smithy like deck with trashing can get very good mileage out of TH. More rare is the games where you can keep multiple alive for several turns thanks to having fewer than 8 stop cards in deck. Every TH after the first one in that situation is a ruined market, so not a great source of +buy, however they are revved up to give a burst of money when it comes to endgame should you gain more stop cards.
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In a Big Money deck, the "trash this for a Treasure" bonus will never trigger, which leaves Tragic Hero as just a worse Margrave. So TH sucks in Big Money.
"A worse Margrave" is a really good card, dude. Draw and Buy in one action is awesome.
Except that that's strictly worse than Margave at the same cost.
It's no Scout-tier, but I would say TH is easily F-tier. I would've placed it dead last in Nocturne in a heartbeat.
So there's tons of utility in TH in an engine. In a lot of cases you just play it like a Draw To X card that can blow itself up for a bonus. Play TH, play a little payload and/or discarding some stuff, play another, keep going.
But really I think you're missing the utility of blowing it up. Getting a little extra payload and a Buy to use that turn is pretty good - particularly if you have a way to just gain Tragic Heroes. Or if it's the last turn or whatever. Sure you only draw the Treasure in a deck you've already nearly finished drawing... but I mean, you're blowing it up, so you already have to be halfway there right?
You have to be all the way there to be blowing up TH AND drawing the Gold from it in the same turn without getting really lucky. And playing two +handsize cards in one turn once isn't really halfway there.
P.S.: My second point for TH only applies w/o Platinums + Colonies. If you're playing with Platinums + Colonies, then TH is B or A tier.
You've got a lot of learning left, man.
Why so? "Gain a Treasure" is way better if Platinums are in the Supply.
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Council Room without tbe +buy is "worse" than Smithy (the extra card costs you an Action and costs other players nothing), but it ends up being a great card because that +buy helps put a very big hand to work)
I don't see how that's relevant. I only claim that TH is strictly worse than Margrave in BM decks, which it is because it doesn't have the attack and if it doesn't trigger the trashing effect, it doesn't have anything else to make up for the lack of the attack. Council Room does have something that makes up for its weakness.
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95+% cards are worse than margrave. That is really is no Argument against tragic hero.
It's a bit like saying Chapel sucks because Donate exists.
Except that Donate doesn't cost (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/3/3d/Coin2.png/16px-Coin2.png), and Chapel doesn't trash itself for a Silver.
wow that chapel sounds like a really broken card. because silver is exactly what you need after trashing so much. i would open 2 chapels if it were like that.
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95+% cards are worse than margrave. That is really is no Argument against tragic hero.
It's a bit like saying Chapel sucks because Donate exists.
Except that Donate doesn't cost (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/3/3d/Coin2.png/16px-Coin2.png), and Chapel doesn't trash itself for a Silver.
wow that chapel sounds like a really broken card. because silver is exactly what you need after trashing so much. i would open 2 chapels if it were like that.
*Me when I open Chapel/Silver*
"If only there were a better way..."
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95+% cards are worse than margrave. That is really is no Argument against tragic hero.
It's a bit like saying Chapel sucks because Donate exists.
Except that Donate doesn't cost (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/3/3d/Coin2.png/16px-Coin2.png), and Chapel doesn't trash itself for a Silver.
wow that chapel sounds like a really broken card. because silver is exactly what you need after trashing so much. i would open 2 chapels if it were like that.
Okay, I didn't think that analogy all the way through.
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In the grand scheme of things, Big Money is just way too narrow a scope on which to base card judgements. In Big Money, Patron is strictly better than Conclave. Quarry is barely distinguishable from an overpriced copper. All throne variants and village variants rank among the worst cards in the game.
We don't currently live in a world where the Big Money strategy in Dominion is all that relevant, especially after the 2nd edition revisions to base and intrigue. Even mostly money decks have little trouble finding card interactions within the non-basic kingdom cards that do better than Big Money + X.
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In the grand scheme of things, Big Money is just way too narrow a scope on which to base card judgements. In Big Money, Patron is strictly better than Conclave. Quarry is barely distinguishable from an overpriced copper. All throne variants and village variants rank among the worst cards in the game.
We don't currently live in a world where the Big Money strategy in Dominion is all that relevant, especially after the 2nd edition revisions to base and intrigue. Even mostly money decks have little trouble finding card interactions within the non-basic kingdom cards that do better than Big Money + X.
I know. I never actually play Big Money. My main point was that it stinks in engines because it "rewards" you for building a successful engine by removing an important engine component.
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95+% cards are worse than margrave. That is really is no Argument against tragic hero.
There are, however, no cards that are strictly worse than Margrave at the same cost. Except for Tragic Hero in BM decks.
In BM, Margrave sifting may actually help your opponent, so Tragic Hero isn't strictly worse.
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95+% cards are worse than margrave. That is really is no Argument against tragic hero.
There are, however, no cards that are strictly worse than Margrave at the same cost. Except for Tragic Hero in BM decks.
In BM, Margrave sifting may actually help your opponent, so Tragic Hero isn't strictly worse.
Fair point, but that's unlikely enough that it would still look wrong to price them the same. The card draw and the buy aren't the only reasons Margrave is so powerful, after all.
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In the grand scheme of things, Big Money is just way too narrow a scope on which to base card judgements. In Big Money, Patron is strictly better than Conclave. Quarry is barely distinguishable from an overpriced copper. All throne variants and village variants rank among the worst cards in the game.
We don't currently live in a world where the Big Money strategy in Dominion is all that relevant, especially after the 2nd edition revisions to base and intrigue. Even mostly money decks have little trouble finding card interactions within the non-basic kingdom cards that do better than Big Money + X.
I know. I never actually play Big Money. My main point was that it stinks in engines because it "rewards" you for building a successful engine by removing an important engine component.
It removes an engine component, but replaces it with payload. Is that worth it? It depends on what kind of mid/endgame expected. In a race for provinces, it combines well with other draw to help you draw your deck while having extra money to sneak in an extra VP card. The drawback of gaining a stop card is more detrimental on the turn after TH blows up. Maybe the game has already been decided by then.
If however you foresee needing draw for a good while, and endgame is still far in sight, then okay that's when you take the other smithy variants over TH. Like, don't start popping THs when you are in the middle of an ambassador war or pop it while in the process of cleaning up after a junker across several turns.
If TH happens to be the only handsize increaser on the board, then it doesn't matter how much worse it might be than other smithy variants because it's probably better to get it than do the thing on the board that doesn't give you extra cards to hold in hand.
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In the grand scheme of things, Big Money is just way too narrow a scope on which to base card judgements. In Big Money, Patron is strictly better than Conclave. Quarry is barely distinguishable from an overpriced copper. All throne variants and village variants rank among the worst cards in the game.
We don't currently live in a world where the Big Money strategy in Dominion is all that relevant, especially after the 2nd edition revisions to base and intrigue. Even mostly money decks have little trouble finding card interactions within the non-basic kingdom cards that do better than Big Money + X.
I know. I never actually play Big Money. My main point was that it stinks in engines because it "rewards" you for building a successful engine by removing an important engine component.
It removes an engine component, but replaces it with payload. Is that worth it? It depends on what kind of mid/endgame expected. In a race for provinces, it combines well with other draw to help you draw your deck while having extra money to sneak in an extra VP card. The drawback of gaining a stop card is more detrimental on the turn after TH blows up. Maybe the game has already been decided by then.
If however you foresee needing draw for a good while, and endgame is still far in sight, then okay that's when you take the other smithy variants over TH. Like, don't start popping THs when you are in the middle of an ambassador war or pop it while in the process of cleaning up after a junker across several turns.
If TH happens to be the only handsize increaser on the board, then it doesn't matter how much worse it might be than other smithy variants because it's probably better to get it than do the thing on the board that doesn't give you extra cards to hold in hand.
Agreed. Like I said, it can be really good, but I think it's rarer than most other Smithy variants. I've reassessed it into a B-tier, I would say.
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Renaissance
1. Recruiter
2. Silk Merchant
3. Old Witch
4. Inventor
5. Lackeys
6. Seer
7. Sculptor
8. Treasurer
9. Priest
10. Spices
11. Mountain Village
12. Cargo Ship
13. Swashbuckler
14. Experiment
15. Border Guard
16. Patron
17. Research
18. Hideout
19. Flag Bearer
20. Improve
21. Ducat
22. Scepter
23. Acting Troupe
24. Scholar
25. Villain
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95+% cards are worse than margrave. That is really is no Argument against tragic hero.
There are, however, no cards that are strictly worse than Margrave at the same cost. Except for Tragic Hero in BM decks.
In BM, Margrave sifting may actually help your opponent, so Tragic Hero isn't strictly worse.
It also totally doesn't matter, because unless both are in the same game, being strictly worse than another card doesn't have any sway on whether the card is good or bad, especially when that other card is top tier.
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Whoa, the Renaissance list is also surprising. Silk Merchant at #2? Hideout is considered weak?
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Okay, Renaissance is the new most wrong list, no contest. Mountain Village and Patron should be way higher, Lackeys and Research are way too high, especially Research (Research really is F-tier), and both Scholar and Hideout should be higher. Looking at all of them at once, Renaissance has the best cards on average IMO. Most cards in Renaissance are at least high B-tier.
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Whoa, the Renaissance list is also surprising. Silk Merchant at #2? Hideout is considered weak?
Here are my top 5, in order:
1. Recruiter
2. Mountain Village
3. Inventor
4. Patron
5. Scholar
Border Guard and Silk Merchant are #6 and #7, respectively, but Recruiter is SS-tier (the only other Kingdom cards in that tier, for reference, are Chapel, King's Court, and Cultist), #2-4 are S-tier, and Border Guard and Silk Merchant are both A-tier.
EDIT: Forgot about Sauna/Avanto; they're also SS-tier. Also forgot to mention Scholar as A-tier.
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Whoa, the Renaissance list is also surprising. Silk Merchant at #2? Hideout is considered weak?
Here are my top 5, in order:
1. Recruiter
2. Mountain Village
3. Inventor
4. Patron
5. Scholar
Border Guard and Silk Merchant are #6 and #7, respectively, but Recruiter is SS-tier (the only other Kingdom cards in that tier, for reference, are Chapel, King's Court, and Cultist), #2-4 are S-tier, and Border Guard and Silk Merchant are both A-tier.
I don't think Mountain Village, Border Guard and Silk Merchant are that great. And I'm curious about your opinion on Library based on how highly you rated Scholar.
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Whoa, the Renaissance list is also surprising. Silk Merchant at #2? Hideout is considered weak?
Here are my top 5, in order:
1. Recruiter
2. Mountain Village
3. Inventor
4. Patron
5. Scholar
Border Guard and Silk Merchant are #6 and #7, respectively, but Recruiter is SS-tier (the only other Kingdom cards in that tier, for reference, are Chapel, King's Court, and Cultist), #2-4 are S-tier, and Border Guard and Silk Merchant are both A-tier.
I don't think Mountain Village, Border Guard and Silk Merchant are that great. And I'm curious about your opinion on Library based on how highly you rated Scholar.
I don't think Library is anywhere near as good. Scholar lets you discard all your Victory cards so you can replace them with something useful, whereas Library does not. Library also doesn't stack nearly as easily. It's far easier to redeem a bad hand with Scholar than with Library.
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Library can skip unwanted actions, but Scholar can refresh your hand after choking on stop cards. Both are very much hurt by being terminal, which library mitigates a bit better when you have treasures.
I think Research can go down a bit here. Flag bearer can probably boost up.
Hideout is like Shanty Town: an excellent secondary village. Your deck falls apart if you need them as your main source of actions, but it helps your deck run silky smooth if you have actions from elsewhere, and early game you might get lucky enough to take advantage of the +2 actions.
Silk Merchant is so high because you are really off to the races when you open it. Even a Silk Merchant / Silver opening still guarantees $5 even if you bottomdeck the merchant and Silver. But, you can open anything with Silk Merchant that you can afford and know that during the second shuffle you have a villager to manage their collision. It's a bit awkward when you buy multiple Silk Merchants, but they become super good again if you can trash them out of your deck while getting that extra coffer/villager bonus. And it gives +buy, which sometimes you need. It might feel unfair that it is so high due to its power coming from being an on-gain deal you can't resist, but the card synergizes fairly well with the coffers and villagers it gives you.
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For those of you who are surprised that Silk Merchant is considered a power card, I recommend watching the following two videos:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXRtCwZpLoo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wvS9ipWVX0
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I'm confused how Hideout fell so low here. It's a cantrip trasher. Sure it's a bit slow but it has incidental +2 Actions and it could move up a few spots.
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I'm confused how Hideout fell so low here. It's a cantrip trasher. Sure it's a bit slow but it has incidental +2 Actions and it could move up a few spots.
Have you seen what's above it? Renaissance is a stack expansion (even though I can see some cards dropping below hideout).
I guess with Hideout, it's slow at thinning your deck when not just targetting treasure. But, trashing copper early is not great for your economy, and trashing estate is just economy neutral. A lot of other early game trashers give a more meaningful benefit for the early game than Hideout, which is a bit rough for a $4. I see it as a more convenient early trasher than Sacrifice but worse than Spice Merchant Or anything that gives +$2 on trashing Estates or +$3 on trashing copper (Salvager, Priest, Moneylender).
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Sure. By move up a few spots I meant I want it between Experiment and Border Guard and I want Swashbuckler to move down to just above Research.
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Promos
1. Governor
2. Captain
3. Black Market
4. Sauna/Avanto
5. Envoy
6. Church
7. Walled Village
8. Dismantle
9. Prince
10. Stash
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Captain is way overrated. Dismantle is a tad underrated.
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Captain is way overrated. Dismantle is a tad underrated.
How? It only costs (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/f/f7/Coin1.png/16px-Coin1.png) more than BoM yet is a now-and-next-turn BoM. Even better than that, actually, since it synergizes with cost reduction. I think Sauna/Avanto should be #1 and everything above it should just shift down 1 spot, and Walled Village and Dismantle should switch places. Other than that, I completely agree with this list.
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Captain is way overrated. Dismantle is a tad underrated.
How? It only costs (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/f/f7/Coin1.png/16px-Coin1.png) more than BoM yet is a now-and-next-turn BoM.
Because BoM is not particularly good.
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Captain is way overrated. Dismantle is a tad underrated.
How? It only costs (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/f/f7/Coin1.png/16px-Coin1.png) more than BoM yet is a now-and-next-turn BoM.
Because BoM is not particularly good.
It is when you staple +1 card +1 action to it on the duration turn. Really, you only need one good target to make Captain a key piece of your deck.
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Dark Ages
1. Cultist
2. Urchin
3. Wandering Minstrel
4. Hermit
5. Counterfeit
6. Junk Dealer
7. Ironmonger
8. Knights
9. Forager
10. Fortress
11. Altar
12. Market Square
13. Hunting Grounds
14. Procession
15. Catacombs
16. Bandit Camp
17. Squire
18. Count
19. Rebuild
20. Rogue
21. Marauder
22. Graverobber
23. Storeroom
24. Rats
25. Armory
26. Band of Misfits
27. Scavenger
28. Sage
29. Vagrant
30. Mystic
31. Poor House
32. Feodum
33. Pillage
34. Death Cart
35. Beggar
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Mystic is underrated. Count is way underrated.
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Mystic is underrated. Count is way underrated.
no comment on rebuild?
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Mystic is underrated. Count is way underrated.
When it came time to insert Count into the ranking, the big question was whether it was better or worse than Squire. I personally ranked it better than squire, but really not by much.
It's a card that is good in the very early game for trashing, as well as in the lategame for gaining Duchies. In the middle of the game though, it's rather unimpressive compared to what you terminals you could be playing.
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I'd like to see Death Cart and Feodum swapped. They are both niche, but Feodum more so.
Otherwise, very nice order. The top 10 are rarely ignored in any kingdom.
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I'm confused how Hideout fell so low here. It's a cantrip trasher. Sure it's a bit slow but it has incidental +2 Actions and it could move up a few spots.
Have you seen what's above it? Renaissance is a stack expansion (even though I can see some cards dropping below hideout).
I guess with Hideout, it's slow at thinning your deck when not just targetting treasure. But, trashing copper early is not great for your economy, and trashing estate is just economy neutral. A lot of other early game trashers give a more meaningful benefit for the early game than Hideout, which is a bit rough for a $4. I see it as a more convenient early trasher than Sacrifice but worse than Spice Merchant Or anything that gives +$2 on trashing Estates or +$3 on trashing copper (Salvager, Priest, Moneylender).
It is a trasher and a village, should not be undersold as a "cantrip trasher". While Junk Dealer is a cantrip trasher with +coin, Hideout has +action.
The tricky thing with Hideout is that you want a trasher early in the game but you want a village later in the game. (If you want a useful village early in the game, you'd go for Walled Village.) Junk Dealer's bonus is quite a bit more useful in the early game. The compulsory trashing can be an annoyance with both cards but I can see the extra action of Hideout being more useful for the engine than Junk Dealer's one coin, so you may be more willing to sac a card to keep your engine running.
A tricky card. A wonderful card.
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In my experience, you have a better time if you think of Hideout as a cantrip trasher that happens to act like a village, rather than a village that comes with trashing. You can't sustain a ton of Hideouts but it's nice as a backup Village.
Captain is really good. Saying that Captain isn't that great because Band of Misfits isn't that good is like saying that Lab isn't that great because it's just Moat with +1 Action. The duration effect is the entire reason that Captain is good...
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Mystic is underrated. Count is way underrated.
no comment on rebuild?
I don't even know what to think of Rebuild at this point. It's been worshipped, it's been denigrated.
[Count is] a card that is good in the very early game for trashing... In the middle of the game though, it's rather unimpressive compared to what you terminals you could be playing.
The same could also be said of Chapel.
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The duration effect is the entire reason that Captain is good...
Exactly.
Summon allows you to play an additional $4 card next turn, but you have too choose the card before seeing your hand.
Cobbler allows you to choose a sixth card depending on your hand, but won't play it for you.
Captain's duration lets you have the cake and eat it.
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Mystic is underrated. Count is way underrated.
no comment on rebuild?
I don't even know what to think of Rebuild at this point. It's been worshipped, it's been denigrated.
[Count is] a card that is good in the very early game for trashing... In the middle of the game though, it's rather unimpressive compared to what you terminals you could be playing.
The same could also be said of Chapel.
Chapel trashes more in the early game, can be opened with any $3-$4 cost and potentially a $5, and is still good at trashing in the midgame because of its flexibility. Count might become completely unusable for trashing quite early in the game due to the tempo loss of having to discard or topdeck your good cards, and is rather poor at dealing with a steady stream of junk.