Dominion Strategy Forum

Dominion => Rules Questions => Topic started by: crj on June 18, 2019, 08:26:53 pm

Title: Haunted Woods / Trader
Post by: crj on June 18, 2019, 08:26:53 pm
A knotty little situation arose in a game this evening.

It was Player A's turn, and Player B had a Haunted Woods on duration. A wanted to buy a Curse and reveal Trader from their hand to gain a Silver instead. Does A have time to reveal the Trader before they have to put it on top of the deck because of Haunted Woods?

My ruling at the time was yes, but on reflection, and on browsing the wiki (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Triggered_effects#When_you_buy_a_card), I'm pretty sure I got that wrong and the on-buy trigger has to occur before the on-gain one.

This seems counterintuitive to me: the player can order on-buy triggers however they like, and I would have expected gaining to be just another thing that was triggered by buying. Is there a definitive ruling anywhere?

(Fortunately, if it affected the outcome of the game at all, I'm the one who suffered.)
Title: Re: Haunted Woods / Trader
Post by: werothegreat on June 18, 2019, 08:33:35 pm
You should topdeck Trader before you can use it.  If ShiT doesn't do that, it's wrong.
Title: Re: Haunted Woods / Trader
Post by: Gubump on June 18, 2019, 11:17:34 pm
When you buy a card, this is what happens, in order:

1. You buy a card, triggering on-buy effects.
2. You gain the bought card, triggering on-gain effects.

Haunted Woods is an on-buy effect, whereas Trader triggers on-gain. By the time Trader would be usable, you've already topdecked your hand because of Haunted Woods, so you cannot react with Trader in this instance.
Title: Re: Haunted Woods / Trader
Post by: ConMan on June 19, 2019, 12:41:22 am
When you buy a card, this is what happens, in order:

1. You buy a card, triggering on-buy effects.
2. You gain the bought card, triggering on-gain effects.

Haunted Woods is an on-buy effect, whereas Trader triggers on-gain. By the time Trader would be usable, you've already topdecked your hand because of Haunted Woods, so you cannot react with Trader in this instance.
Technically Trader triggers on-would-gain, which happens momentarily before gaining the card (so it happens in-line with other "would gain" effects, but before any actual on-gain effects). So it's still something that should only happen after the buy does.
Title: Re: Haunted Woods / Trader
Post by: Ingix on June 19, 2019, 04:10:31 am
This seems counterintuitive to me: the player can order on-buy triggers however they like, and I would have expected gaining to be just another thing that was triggered by buying. Is there a definitive ruling anywhere?

The 2E dominion rulebook says:

Quote
You buy a card by choosing it from the Supply, and then "gaining" it.

Of course, that still doesn't totally rule out that gaining could be a triggered effect of buying. That rulebook necessarily cannot address any interaction that may happen. And while 2E dominion does have a triggered effect on Merchant, the rulebook does not especially handle or mention triggered effects. So the above quote might be an indicator, not a definitive ruling.
Title: Re: Haunted Woods / Trader
Post by: Donald X. on June 19, 2019, 02:39:15 pm
I bet Punchball / Jeebus has it right in his document (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=15347.0). A good place to look for rulings.

When you buy a card, you lose the $ and then order and resolve all on-buy triggers (and if new ones show up, order and resolve those too).
Then you do would-gain stuff (Trader, Possession).
Then you gain the card, putting it wherever it goes, normally the discard pile.
Then you order and resolve all when-gain triggers (and if new ones show up, order and resolve those too).
Title: Re: Haunted Woods / Trader
Post by: Jeebus on July 04, 2019, 06:17:51 pm
Also, this is at least also mentioned in the Hinterlands rulebook (both 1st and 2nd ed.).

From 2nd ed. Hinterlands rulebook:

Many cards in Hinterlands do something "when you gain" or "when you buy" that card or another card.
When you buy a card, you first buy it, then gain it. So, for example, if you have Haggler in play and buy Embassy, you first resolve Haggler's "when you buy" ability, then gain Embassy, then resolve Embassy's "when you gain" ability.
When you gain a card without buying it, "when you gain" abilities will still happen, but "when you buy" abilities will not.
"When you gain this" happens directly after you gain the card; the card will be in your discard pile already (or wherever else it was put) when you resolve that ability.
When playing a card, its "when you gain/buy" abilities no longer do anything.
You can sometimes buy a card without gaining it, such as by using Trader to gain Silver instead. You can also sometimes gain cards when it is not your turn.
The player that "when you buy" things happen for is the player who paid for the card, and the player that "when you gain" things happen for is the player who actually gained the card. Those are normally the same person, but can be different, for example due to the Dominion: Alchemy card Possession.