Dominion Strategy Forum

Miscellaneous => Forum Games => Mafia Game Threads => Topic started by: faust on May 09, 2019, 09:37:46 am

Title: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Town and Survivor win!)
Post by: faust on May 09, 2019, 09:37:46 am
Welcome to M123: Doomsday Mafia!

Mod: faust, comod: WestCoastDidds

This is a semi-open setup for 15 players. For setup information see the next post.

Players:
1. Glooble
2. Debatepro
3. MiX
4. DatSwan
5. jotheonah
6. pingpongsam
7. mcmcsalot
8. EFHW
9. Uncleeurope
10. A Drowned Kernel
11. 2.71828.....
12. ashersky
13. gkrieg13
14. pubby
15. silverspawn

Spectators tagged: Joseph2302, SpaceAnemone

Subs available: Galzria, (popsofctown)

Day starts/ends:

General rules

Changes to the usual rule sets are marked in olive.

The Golden Rule:


Please remember that this is a game and your main objective is to have fun!  Be considerate of each other, donít get personal, and enjoy the game. Please read The Civility Pledge (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=7695.0) before signing up for any mafia game on this site.  If you have not /pledged there, you cannot play. Excessive personal attacks or uncivil behavior may be dealt with by modifiers or modkills.

1. General Gameplay and Etiquette:

1. You may not quote information (either real or fabricated) from any game-related source other than the thread you are posting in. This means no quotes from PMs and no quotes from QTs in the main thread or in another QT. Paraphrasing is acceptable. If you are unsure whether a post is legal, please ask the moderator before posting.
2. There is to be NO personal communication outside of the forum postings and the QTs specifically designed for this purpose.
3. As a general rule you should aim for one post every 24 hours, minimum, to keep the game moving.

2. Voting, Deadlines, and Player Death:

1. Day phases will last 7 days, Night lasts at least 36 hours.
2. A simple majority (rounded up) of all living members must agree on one person for a lynch to occur prior to deadline.
3. Once you have reached a simple majority no further unvoting will change someoneís fate. Further votes will also be ignored.
4. Once a player is lynched the game enters twilight until the mod locks the thread; all players including the one who was lynched may continue to post during twilight.
5. If the deadline is hit without a player reaching the majority of votes, the game goes to Night without a lynch.
6. Please submit votes as: Vote: PlayerName.  Votes will NOT be counted if they are not bold or do not follow this syntax! Obvious abbreviations or nicknames will be counted so long as they are unambiguous.
7. Please submit vote revocations Unvote. Unvotes are not necessary before changing votes.
8. You may Vote: No Lynch - a simple majority of these vote types are required to send the game to Night phase without a lynch.
9. If the game goes on for 3 days and 3 nights without a lynch or night kill, town wins.
10. Once you are killed (either via lynch or night kill) you may no longer post in the game or in Quicktopics. This means that you do not even get a ďBahĒ post. The dead in this game are silent.
11. If the thread is locked, you may not post.  Threads can be locked for various reasons, but no matter what the reason, you may not post.  The mod may forget to lock the thread, but if they say it is locked, it is still locked.

3. Miscellaneous/Mechanics:

1. Bold, olive text is reserved for the mod.  No invisible/small text is allowed, nor is cryptography.
2. If you have an issue/problem with the game, please discuss this in your role QT.  Do not post issues/complaints in the game thread.
3. The Mods may make mistakes - please point out any mistakes gently.  Mistakes will be corrected where possible, but sometimes mistakes are made that cannot be reversed.  These will stand as final to be commiserated over after the game.
4. Please bold all requests to the Mods so that they donít get missed.
5. Prods of missing players will be issued upon request after 24 hours of no activity.  A prodded player has 24 hours to respond or risks replacement. A player who has been prodded 2 times is subject to replacement under rule 3.9 without further notice.  If you anticipate being unavailable for more than a 48-hour period please post a notice to that effect in the thread.  Whether a prior announcement means that the missing player will not be replaced is up to the mod.
6. Please do not discuss ongoing games, it can unintentionally affect the other game. Do not discuss this game in any thread that is not directly related to it.
7. Rule violations will be dealt with according to their severity, which may include modkill(s) if needed.
8. Players who discover they are too busy to play in a game or want to leave the game for civility issues are not allowed to officially /out in the thread.  A request to /out must only be done via a post in the role QT. Please do not use this as a manipulation technique.  (Note players may continue to threaten to /out or imply that they might as long as it does not include an official request). Requests to /out are final once submitted. There will be no /outing and then /inning back into the game so make sure that when you /out you have thought it through and really want to do it. Players that can't be replaced will simply be mod-killed. Whether your request to /out will lead to replacement or a modkill is up to the mod's discretion.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia
Post by: faust on May 09, 2019, 09:38:40 am
Setup

This game uses Stack the Deck+, a newly designed semi-open setup based on Stack the Deck (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=10639.msg363706#msg363706).

There will be a total of 15 players, consisting of:
3 Mafia Goons
1 Mafia Traitor
1 Third party
1 Neighbor
1 Vanilla Cop
8 VTs

Special Mechanics:

Neighborhood compulsive 1-shot Vig
During N1, the members of the Neighborhood select a target to be killed, and one of the neighbors to perform the action. If there is no consensus, the target is chosen by majority, the targeter can only be someone who agreed to the target, and is picked by majority among those. Ties are broken randomly. Self-targeting orders cannot be submitted.

Quote from: Example
A, B and C are Neighbors. They submit:

A: B targets X
B: A targets Y
C: C targets Y

Y is the majority target and is selected. All Neighbors are tied for targeting, but since A did not want to target X, they may not become the targeter. Thus targeter is randomly decided among B and C.

Role Modification
During pre-game, the Mafia Goons have 48 hours to select which (if any) of the modifications they want to their team. A maximum of four modifications may be selected.

 - Traitor knows Mafia
 - Mafia knows of 2 roles not included in the setup
 - Mafia has Daychat
 - A random Mafia Goon becomes 1-shot Rolestopper
 - A random Mafia Goon becomes Neighbor
 - A random Mafia Goon becomes 1-shot Active Paranoid Gun Owner
 - A random Mafia Goon becomes Vanilla Cop
 - The Traitor becomes Roleblocker. They lose this power if they are recruited via nightkill.

For each modification that is selected by the mafia, one Vanilla Townie instead receives a randomly selected role from the list below:

 - Neighbor
 - Neighbor
 - Roleblocker
 - Bodyguard
 - Even-Night Tracker
 - 1-shot Watcher
 - 1-shot Active Paranoid Gun Owner

The third party player has 48 hours to pick one of the 4 roles below. Their pick removes a corresponding role from the list of possible town roles.

 - Bodyguarded Neighbor Survivor: Wins if they are still alive when the game ends. When they would be killed at Night, a random other member of the Neighborhood dies instead. Removes a Neighbor from town's list.
 - Ninja 1-shot Bulletproof Serial Killer: Wins if they are the only player left alive. Their kill cannot be detected by Trackers or Watchers. Removes town's 1-shot PGO.
 - Tracker Reporter: Wins when all power roles are dead and they are still alive. If they win, they are removed from the game. Removes the Even-Night Tracker from town's list.
 - Mafia Traitor: Shares mafia's win condition, but does not know who they are (not even if mafia selects Traitor knows mafia). The mafia does not know whether they exist. Picking this does not remove a power from town's list, but instead adds one additional role for town.

Clarifications:
- At the beginning of the game all town aligned players receive a "Vanilla Town" role. Once mafia has selected their abilities all town roles go out. This prevents claims of "received roles before/after mafia modifications".
- No player may receive more than one role/modification. This means that mafia may not choose all of the 4 modifications giving them roles.
- If a Mafia Traitor is targeted with the factional kill, they join the Mafia QT instead of dying. They may use the nightkill once they joined the QT or all original members of the Mafia QT have died.
- A Traitor Roleblocker is resolved before a Town Roleblocker.
- The Bodyguard protects their targets from all nightkills in the Night they target them.
- Traitor does not constitute a power role, but also is not Vanilla
- The Neighborhood QT is only open at Night, but not during N0.
- If all members of the mafia QT die and 2 Traitors are alive, the non-third party Traitor inherits the nightkill.
- A mafia Neighbor is able to perform the Vigilante kill and the factional kill at the same time.

Role PMs

Quote
You are a Neighbor. Each night, you may talk to your fellow Neighbors in this QT: [QT link]. For Night 1, the members of the QT must choose a target and targeter for a night kill.
Quote
You are a Vanilla Cop. Each Night, you may target another player. At the end of the Night, you will learn whether your target is a Vanilla member of their factions.
Quote
You are a Roleblocker. Each Night, you may target another player. Any action that player takes that night will fail.
Quote
You are a 1-shot Active Paranoid Gun Owner. Once during the game, at Night, you may choose to activate your powers. If you do, all players targeting you taht Night will die.
Quote
You are a 1-shot Rolestopper. Once during the game, at Night, you may target another player. All actions targeting that player will fail.
Quote
You are a Bodyguard. Each Night, you may target another player. If they would die that Night, you will die instead.
Quote
You are an Even-Night Tracker. On every even Night, you may target another player, and at the end of the Night, you will learn which player (if any) they targeted that Night.
Quote
You are a 1-shot Watcher. Once during the game, at Night, you may target another player. At the end of the Night, you will learn the names of all players that targeted them that Night.

Flavor

Every townie receives a randomly selected dystopian future as their flavor (and non-townies receive them as fakeclaims). Flavor will roughly be based around whether humanity can avoid the impending doom.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Signups open!)
Post by: A Drowned Kernel on May 09, 2019, 09:52:17 am
When would this be likely to start?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Signups open!)
Post by: faust on May 09, 2019, 10:00:29 am
When would this be likely to start?
Whenever it fills. I expect not before the end of at least one of the current games, given that we need a decent amount of people.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Signups open!)
Post by: Glooble on May 09, 2019, 10:15:29 am
/in
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Signups open!)
Post by: A Drowned Kernel on May 09, 2019, 10:36:39 am
If I understand the neighborhood correctly:

-at least one neighbor is guaranteed town
-if there are four neighbors you know for sure that one is scum
-if scum doesn't pick neighbor and no extra neighbors are rolled for town they're just a compulsive vig

Is that all right?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Signups open!)
Post by: faust on May 09, 2019, 10:56:43 am
If I understand the neighborhood correctly:

-at least one neighbor is guaranteed town
-if there are four neighbors you know for sure that one is scum
-if scum doesn't pick neighbor and no extra neighbors are rolled for town they're just a compulsive vig

Is that all right?
Yes, that's all correct, the last with the caveat that it's only true if third party doesn't pick Survivor.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Signups open!)
Post by: A Drowned Kernel on May 09, 2019, 11:38:57 am
Do mafia PRs count for the reporter?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Signups open!)
Post by: Debatepro on May 09, 2019, 12:04:02 pm
in/ - If it begins after or around June 17 ish, WCD should join.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Signups open!)
Post by: MiX on May 09, 2019, 12:05:32 pm
/in because I miss Debatepro!
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Signups open!)
Post by: LaLight on May 09, 2019, 12:29:35 pm
/in
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Signups open!)
Post by: faust on May 09, 2019, 12:47:52 pm
Do mafia PRs count for the reporter?
Yes.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Signups open!)
Post by: jotheonah on May 09, 2019, 01:18:32 pm
this looks absolutely bonkers bananas and I am /in
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Signups open!)
Post by: Joseph2302 on May 10, 2019, 10:07:59 am
/tag
I'm interested but also away without internet for over a week soon
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Signups open!)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on May 11, 2019, 10:15:38 am
Faust, do you need a co-mod? Iíd like to learn.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Signups open!)
Post by: LaLight on May 11, 2019, 11:07:12 am
Actually, /out, sorry. I can't commit to anything really now
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Signups open!)
Post by: LaLight on May 11, 2019, 11:08:19 am
Might be able to sub maybe, so don't send a speccy
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Signups open!)
Post by: faust on May 12, 2019, 09:01:30 am
Faust, do you need a co-mod? Iíd like to learn.
Sure, that would be a great help. I'm going to send you the mod QT soon.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Signups open!)
Post by: DatSwan on May 12, 2019, 06:53:48 pm
/in
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Signups open!)
Post by: 2.71828..... on May 13, 2019, 06:48:58 am
/tag
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Signups open!)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on May 13, 2019, 07:16:34 am
/tag

I'd like to play, but let's see if my free time ever re-materialises before committing to anything...
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Signups open!)
Post by: pingpongsam on May 13, 2019, 01:53:01 pm
/in

VLA 6/10-6/12
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Signups open!)
Post by: jotheonah on May 13, 2019, 01:57:10 pm
/in

VLA 6/10-6/12

hey! long time no see
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Signups open!)
Post by: Joseph2302 on May 17, 2019, 03:51:53 am
If this game is still looking for sign ups in a month, I'll join
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Signups open!)
Post by: pingpongsam on May 20, 2019, 06:26:01 am
/in

VLA 6/10-6/12

hey! long time no see
Hi!
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Signups open!)
Post by: mcmcsalot on May 21, 2019, 11:59:22 am
/in this looks great!

Am I incorrect though the neighborhood example looks like C has to kill Y.

A: B target X
B: A target Y
C: C target Y

Y is the majority so they are the target, which leaves A or C to do the targeting, since A did not want Y targeted they cannot be the target-or so C targets Y. Correct?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Signups open!)
Post by: jotheonah on May 21, 2019, 01:00:38 pm
I also have a setup question. If all three of the non-traitor mafia die but the traitor is still alive, does the traitor get a nightkill?

What if there are two traitors alive but the rest of the mafia are dead?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Signups open!)
Post by: faust on May 21, 2019, 01:07:37 pm
Am I incorrect though the neighborhood example looks like C has to kill Y.

A: B target X
B: A target Y
C: C target Y

Y is the majority so they are the target, which leaves A or C to do the targeting, since A did not want Y targeted they cannot be the target-or so C targets Y. Correct?
No, target and targeter are determined independently so to speak. Y is the target, and even though noone submitted "B targets Y", someone selected B to do the targeting, and B wants Y targeted, so B is in the running.

I also have a setup question. If all three of the non-traitor mafia die but the traitor is still alive, does the traitor get a nightkill?

What if there are two traitors alive but the rest of the mafia are dead?
Yes, the Traitor will inherit the nightkill in that case. If there are 2 Traitors, then the non-third party Traitor will inherit the nightkill, and if they die, the remaining Traitor inherits it from them.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Signups open!)
Post by: jotheonah on May 21, 2019, 01:09:47 pm
I love this setup and I love that scum and third party get choices, but I just know I'm going to end up getting VT and get to make no choices.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Signups open!)
Post by: jotheonah on May 21, 2019, 01:13:47 pm
So this isn't explicit in the setup post, but once scum and third party make their choices, how is it determined which town power roles are added out of the ones remaining? Is it random or will you do it strategically with an eye toward balance?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Signups open!)
Post by: mcmcsalot on May 21, 2019, 01:27:50 pm
Am I incorrect though the neighborhood example looks like C has to kill Y.

A: B target X
B: A target Y
C: C target Y

Y is the majority so they are the target, which leaves A or C to do the targeting, since A did not want Y targeted they cannot be the target-or so C targets Y. Correct?
No, target and targeter are determined independently so to speak. Y is the target, and even though noone submitted "B targets Y", someone selected B to do the targeting, and B wants Y targeted, so B is in the running.

Ah okay so essentially you select someone to be the target-or regardless of target and then select a target and the only exclusion is someone canít be forced to target a person they didnít vote for as the target.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Signups open!)
Post by: A Drowned Kernel on May 21, 2019, 04:14:32 pm
If a mafia neighbor is chosen to perform the kill, can they still perform the mafia kill?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Signups open!)
Post by: EFHW on May 22, 2019, 08:46:44 am
Cool setup.  /in
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Signups open!)
Post by: faust on May 22, 2019, 08:53:47 am
So this isn't explicit in the setup post, but once scum and third party make their choices, how is it determined which town power roles are added out of the ones remaining? Is it random or will you do it strategically with an eye toward balance?
It will be random, with every entry on the list only selectable once and possibly one option removed due to third party choice.

If a mafia neighbor is chosen to perform the kill, can they still perform the mafia kill?
Yes.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Signups open!)
Post by: Uncleeurope on May 22, 2019, 03:06:21 pm
Iím thinking...
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Signups open!)
Post by: jotheonah on May 22, 2019, 04:20:33 pm
Iím thinking...

You all saw it, he typed "in"
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Signups open!)
Post by: mcmcsalot on May 22, 2019, 04:25:55 pm
Iím th in king...

You all saw it, he typed "in"

Sounds like heís excited
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Signups open!)
Post by: Uncleeurope on May 22, 2019, 11:09:23 pm
But I didnít put a ď/ď so I couldnít possibly be in.

Wait...
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Signups open!)
Post by: 2.71828..... on May 23, 2019, 01:06:47 am
/
in
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Signups open!)
Post by: Uncleeurope on May 25, 2019, 11:20:41 am
/
in

Looks like e wants to play too.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Signups open!)
Post by: A Drowned Kernel on May 26, 2019, 11:14:07 am
/in
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Signups open!)
Post by: 2.71828..... on May 26, 2019, 01:12:23 pm
/
in

Looks like e wants to play too.

I suppose so

/in
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Signups open!)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on May 26, 2019, 10:31:33 pm
/in
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Signups open!)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on May 27, 2019, 09:15:16 am
/in

Whoops, sorry, faust. Not me. Iíll help you mod. ADK /inned, though
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (3 spots left!)
Post by: ashersky on May 27, 2019, 09:15:59 am
/in
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (3 spots left!)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on May 28, 2019, 04:41:41 pm
Bump, bump!

Come on, three players!
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (3 spots left!)
Post by: popsofctown on May 30, 2019, 07:39:31 pm
Should I play?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (3 spots left!)
Post by: jotheonah on May 30, 2019, 08:08:15 pm
Should I play?

Duh
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (3 spots left!)
Post by: A Drowned Kernel on May 30, 2019, 08:25:43 pm
About the "know two roles" option:

-can scum get the extra neighbors as answers?
-can scum get the options that the third party didn't pick as answers?
-if the above aren't the case, what happens if scum picks that option and there aren't two such roles in the game (for example, scum picks 4 mods and the third party picks mafia traitor, and all of the unique town PRs are selected)
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (3 spots left!)
Post by: gkrieg13 on May 30, 2019, 11:57:02 pm
/in
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (3 spots left!)
Post by: popsofctown on May 31, 2019, 12:39:14 am
I don't know if I like the setup :(
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (2 spots left!)
Post by: pubby on May 31, 2019, 02:10:48 am
/in
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (3 spots left!)
Post by: faust on May 31, 2019, 02:27:15 am
About the "know two roles" option:

-can scum get the extra neighbors as answers?
-can scum get the options that the third party didn't pick as answers?
-if the above aren't the case, what happens if scum picks that option and there aren't two such roles in the game (for example, scum picks 4 mods and the third party picks mafia traitor, and all of the unique town PRs are selected)
Extra neighbors are a possible answer. Also, they cannot get whatever role is removed by third party choice as an answer.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (3 spots left!)
Post by: faust on May 31, 2019, 02:27:51 am
I don't know if I like the setup :(
Not much time left to decide!
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (1 spot left!)
Post by: Galzria on May 31, 2019, 02:38:09 am
/sub
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (1 spot left!)
Post by: silverspawn on May 31, 2019, 04:05:03 am
(https://s17.directupload.net/images/190531/h356ndwv.png)

/in
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (full! PMs coming on the weekend.)
Post by: jotheonah on May 31, 2019, 08:49:22 am
Well pops, maybe weíll need a sub.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (full! PMs coming on the weekend.)
Post by: popsofctown on May 31, 2019, 11:30:03 pm
Yeah I might replace, we'll see.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Night 0)
Post by: faust on June 01, 2019, 09:38:38 am
PMs are out! Please confirm in your personal or factional QT. Night 0 begin now and lasts until June 03, 2019, 10:00:00 am.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Night 0)
Post by: faust on June 02, 2019, 04:14:33 am
The setup post now has role PMs included for all possible roles.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Night 0)
Post by: faust on June 03, 2019, 08:58:39 am
Clarification: The Neighborhood QT will not open until N1. Neighbors are not informed who, if anyone, is in the neighborhood with them until then.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: faust on June 03, 2019, 10:05:29 am
The dawn of the 21st century marked a brief window of optimism for human civilization. The cold war seemed over and the nuclear devastation of the earth now was merely a scare of the past. Around the world, dictators were overthrown in favor of democratically elected rulers. And despite the warnings, the climate crisis still felt distant and vague.

But those who in the wake of this period of prosperity proclaimed the end of history would soon enough be proven wrong. Processes that had been brewing below the surface would soon escalate and force the leaders of the world to act. They were sorely unprepared. I have gathered here what records I could find that document humanity's path in the 21st century, the century of global catastrophe. My hope is that future generations might study these developments, and learn from our mistakes, where we have failed to learn from the mistakes of our ancestors.


Day 1 begins!

Vote Count 1.0

Not Voting (15): Glooble, Debatepro, MiX, DatSwan, jotheonah, pingpongsam, mcmcsalot, EFHW, Uncleeurope, A Drowned Kernel, 2.71828....., ashersky, gkrieg13, pubby, silverspawn

With 15 alive, it takes 8 to lynch. Day 1 ends on June 10, 2019, 10:00:00 am.

Thread unlocked!
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: A Drowned Kernel on June 03, 2019, 10:07:56 am
Setup talk is bad here, I think, so let's not.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mcmcsalot on June 03, 2019, 10:09:57 am
Setup talk is bad here, I think, so let's not.

Sounds good you scum?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: A Drowned Kernel on June 03, 2019, 10:11:36 am
Setup talk is bad here, I think, so let's not.

Sounds good you scum?

Nope. How bout you?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: pingpongsam on June 03, 2019, 10:13:24 am
Ashersky has a plan?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mcmcsalot on June 03, 2019, 10:14:04 am
Setup talk is bad here, I think, so let's not.

Sounds good you scum?

Nope. How bout you?

Nope! So thatís nice. Getting a bad feeling from anyone so far?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mcmcsalot on June 03, 2019, 10:14:35 am
Ashersky has a plan?

This made me actually laugh out loud. Youíre town
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: A Drowned Kernel on June 03, 2019, 10:17:33 am
Setup talk is bad here, I think, so let's not.

Sounds good you scum?

Nope. How bout you?

Nope! So thatís nice. Getting a bad feeling from anyone so far?

Not you, so we're narrowing things down already. Man, this game is easy!
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mcmcsalot on June 03, 2019, 10:22:49 am
Okay so weíve got three townies here with me you and pps. I say we form a voting block, it takes 8 to lynch so I think three is a good size block, you guys in?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: jotheonah on June 03, 2019, 10:23:26 am
Setup talk is bad here, I think, so let's not.

This is a town tell for ADK, I suppose.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Glooble on June 03, 2019, 10:26:59 am
Setup talk is bad here, I think, so let's not.

This is a town tell for ADK, I suppose.


Or they're scum who learned from a recent mistake- but I doubt it, seeing as ADK got townread so hard that game they almost won it.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: MiX on June 03, 2019, 10:28:03 am
Ashersky has a plan?

Not anymore. Ash is not the same...not like I knew him before.

This setup is a complete mess to theorize about. Maybe we should only talk about it D2?

Okay so weíve got three townies here with me you and pps. I say we form a voting block, it takes 8 to lynch so I think three is a good size block, you guys in?

We'd probably need...8, right?

Setup talk is bad here, I think, so let's not.

This is a town tell for ADK, I suppose.


Or they're scum who learned from a recent mistake- but I doubt it, seeing as ADK got townread so hard that game they almost won it.

It wasn't a mistake and it has little to do with how he got townread.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: A Drowned Kernel on June 03, 2019, 10:31:21 am
Honestly I like most of what I see so far.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: ashersky on June 03, 2019, 10:33:37 am
Setup talk is bad here, I think, so let's not.

Why, pray tell?  (Genuine question. Given things are now set in stone, I wonder what harm can come of it. Iím fine with generalized terms if it helps you answer.)
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mcmcsalot on June 03, 2019, 10:34:15 am
Okay so weíve got three townies here with me you and pps. I say we form a voting block, it takes 8 to lynch so I think three is a good size block, you guys in?

We'd probably need...8, right?

No silly thatís a whole wagon. I am proposing my fellow townies adk and pps join me in a linked up voting block, where one votes we all vote.

It would work like this vote: mix
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: ashersky on June 03, 2019, 10:34:57 am
Ashersky has a plan?

Kind of. Nothing spectacular though, and I wonder if it isnít better left unsaid.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: ashersky on June 03, 2019, 10:35:28 am
Mom salon is town.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: A Drowned Kernel on June 03, 2019, 10:36:15 am
Setup talk is bad here, I think, so let's not.

Why, pray tell?  (Genuine question. Given things are now set in stone, I wonder what harm can come of it. Iím fine with generalized terms if it helps you answer.)

Mostly we don't want to help the traitor(s)
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mcmcsalot on June 03, 2019, 10:39:59 am
Setup talk is bad here, I think, so let's not.

Why, pray tell?  (Genuine question. Given things are now set in stone, I wonder what harm can come of it. Iím fine with generalized terms if it helps you answer.)

Mostly we don't want to help the traitor(s)

Psssst..did you see my post, you were supposed to vote mix...kinda leaving me hanging here...
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: MiX on June 03, 2019, 10:40:54 am
Oh, like this?

Vote: MiX
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: A Drowned Kernel on June 03, 2019, 10:42:09 am
Oh, like this?

Vote: MiX

Woah bear.

vote: mix
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: pingpongsam on June 03, 2019, 10:42:57 am
Oh, like this?

Vote: MiX

Vote: MiX
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mcmcsalot on June 03, 2019, 10:46:39 am
Oh, like this?

Vote: MiX

Self voting is scummy, what started as a demonstration of the block Iím action now feels like an okay place for the block to rest in the early game.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mcmcsalot on June 03, 2019, 10:48:29 am
On the topic of setup this is one of those ones where scum and prís have more info than the rest and should discuss things as they see fit.

I dont think there are any things that need to be discussed off the bat like ďmake sure this does thisĒ or that we should push a d1 claim of any kind.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Glooble on June 03, 2019, 10:51:11 am
Oh, like this?

Vote: MiX

Self voting is scummy, what started as a demonstration of the block Iím action now feels like an okay place for the block to rest in the early game.

As stupid as this is going to sound, acting scummy is a town tell for MiX.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: MiX on June 03, 2019, 10:56:29 am
Oh, like this?

Vote: MiX

Self voting is scummy, what started as a demonstration of the block Iím action now feels like an okay place for the block to rest in the early game.

As stupid as this is going to sound, acting scummy is a town tell for MiX.


And leaving me off the hook is a scum tell:

Vote: Glooble
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Glooble on June 03, 2019, 10:59:13 am
Oh, like this?

Vote: MiX

Self voting is scummy, what started as a demonstration of the block I’m action now feels like an okay place for the block to rest in the early game.

As stupid as this is going to sound, acting scummy is a town tell for MiX.


And leaving me off the hook is a scum tell:

Vote: Glooble

More like a "almost lost the last game by tunneling you super hard when we were both town" tell.

But what's that old saying about generals always fighting the previous war?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: MiX on June 03, 2019, 11:05:01 am
Okay, actual scumhunting...

ash is town. Mcmc is town. Glooble is town. I have no idea what pps is. ADK is most likely scum, but I will not vote there, only in LyLo (won me last time). The person that is most likely going to win us the game if we lynch them today is

Vote: gkrieg
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: MiX on June 03, 2019, 11:06:25 am
And I forgot joth posted, so he's SK. I suggest we take him out now.

Vote: joth
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Uncleeurope on June 03, 2019, 11:32:02 am
*yawn*

Vote: MiX

On the topic of setup this is one of those ones where scum and prís have more info than the rest and should discuss things as they see fit.

I dont think there are any things that need to be discussed off the bat like ďmake sure this does thisĒ or that we should push a d1 claim of any kind.

I think itís worth discussing a little bit. Or at least interesting to do so.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: gkrieg13 on June 03, 2019, 11:40:35 am
*yawn*

Vote: MiX

On the topic of setup this is one of those ones where scum and prís have more info than the rest and should discuss things as they see fit.

I dont think there are any things that need to be discussed off the bat like ďmake sure this does thisĒ or that we should push a d1 claim of any kind.

I think itís worth discussing a little bit. Or at least interesting to do so.

This is a lazy vote.

vote: Eddie
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: EFHW on June 03, 2019, 12:03:25 pm
vote: mcmc. Only scum would be so trusting. (This is 95% RVS and 5% wondering about scum motivations here.) (Oh, and 5% for not being included in the cabal.)
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mcmcsalot on June 03, 2019, 12:35:02 pm
*yawn*

Vote: MiX

On the topic of setup this is one of those ones where scum and prís have more info than the rest and should discuss things as they see fit.

I dont think there are any things that need to be discussed off the bat like ďmake sure this does thisĒ or that we should push a d1 claim of any kind.

I think itís worth discussing a little bit. Or at least interesting to do so.

This is a lazy vote.

vote: Eddie

I agree itís a lazy vote and lazy comment on my setup thoughts.

Eddie do you have things about the setup you want to discuss, if so no ones stopping you. If you just like talking about setups and want someone to make a post about it then you are out of luck and slightly scummy.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: jotheonah on June 03, 2019, 01:19:49 pm
I could sheep vote: Uncleeurope here.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Debatepro on June 03, 2019, 01:23:35 pm
Excited to be in this game, playing for the first time with some new people (to me, not the game).

I really like the flavor, which is unusual for me. In a previous life, I used to argue we should let everyone die from biocide or an asteroid to kill all life on earth so we don't build something worse that destroys the universe. I am quite pleased that the Armageddon gods were on my side with the randomizer. Viva la town, let's bring this sucker down.

Vote: MiX - Like Mexico...always on the table.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: MiX on June 03, 2019, 01:30:58 pm
5 votes in three hours...yep, I still got it.

I really don't think Eddie would play exactly the same way he did last time he was scum, and he just hit basically all the marks he was hitting before (then again I was his scumbuddy so I have some confirmation bias). On the other hand, joth's playing his townmeta a little bit too perfectly now.

gkrieg is scum, EFHW is town, Debatepro is null.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: silverspawn on June 03, 2019, 01:32:23 pm
Hi everyone. I'm in a game. How strange.

I agree that the setup shouldn't be discussed here, although if someone thinks they have a great pro-town plan and has thought that through, then please correct me.

*yawn*

Vote: MiX

On the topic of setup this is one of those ones where scum and prís have more info than the rest and should discuss things as they see fit.

I dont think there are any things that need to be discussed off the bat like ďmake sure this does thisĒ or that we should push a d1 claim of any kind.

I think itís worth discussing a little bit. Or at least interesting to do so.

Interesting and pro-town are orthogonal dimensions. We will not discuss the setup because it's interesting.

@mcmc: I'd like to know how serious your voting block attempt was.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: MiX on June 03, 2019, 01:44:46 pm
Okay, here's an interesting tidbit I almost forgot about: D2 is MyLo. Or at least can be. Fun setup, right? Is it at all useful?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: gkrieg13 on June 03, 2019, 01:44:54 pm
5 votes in three hours...yep, I still got it.

I really don't think Eddie would play exactly the same way he did last time he was scum, and he just hit basically all the marks he was hitting before (then again I was his scumbuddy so I have some confirmation bias). On the other hand, joth's playing his townmeta a little bit too perfectly now.

gkrieg is scum, EFHW is town, Debatepro is null.

Damn, MiX got me...
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: MiX on June 03, 2019, 01:46:20 pm
5 votes in three hours...yep, I still got it.

I really don't think Eddie would play exactly the same way he did last time he was scum, and he just hit basically all the marks he was hitting before (then again I was his scumbuddy so I have some confirmation bias). On the other hand, joth's playing his townmeta a little bit too perfectly now.

gkrieg is scum, EFHW is town, Debatepro is null.

Damn, MiX got me...

Don't worry, I promise I won't tunnel you as hard as last game. You're still scum, however.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Glooble on June 03, 2019, 01:59:35 pm
Okay, here's an interesting tidbit I almost forgot about: D2 is MyLo. Or at least can be. Fun setup, right? Is it at all useful?

I don't think this is right.


Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: gkrieg13 on June 03, 2019, 01:59:48 pm
5 votes in three hours...yep, I still got it.

I really don't think Eddie would play exactly the same way he did last time he was scum, and he just hit basically all the marks he was hitting before (then again I was his scumbuddy so I have some confirmation bias). On the other hand, joth's playing his townmeta a little bit too perfectly now.

gkrieg is scum, EFHW is town, Debatepro is null.

Damn, MiX got me...

Don't worry, I promise I won't tunnel you as hard as last game. You're still scum, however.

Ya, you saw how well that worked for you last game.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: gkrieg13 on June 03, 2019, 02:00:19 pm
Ashersky has a plan?

Kind of. Nothing spectacular though, and I wonder if it isnít better left unsaid.

Ash without a plan is scummy.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: gkrieg13 on June 03, 2019, 02:00:35 pm
vote: ashersky
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: gkrieg13 on June 03, 2019, 02:01:08 pm
Setup talk is bad here, I think, so let's not.

This is a town tell for ADK, I suppose.

?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: gkrieg13 on June 03, 2019, 02:01:38 pm
Honestly I like most of what I see so far.

What do you like of what you saw so far?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Uncleeurope on June 03, 2019, 02:02:04 pm
I could sheep vote: Uncleeurope here.

Vote: Jotheonah

My vote is lazy because of the yawn, get it? Itís a joke, haha.

Also, Joth is sheeping what exactly? Does he find me scummy himself? Stay tuned for the next episode to find out. Have some backbone and say you think Iím a baddie.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: gkrieg13 on June 03, 2019, 02:02:41 pm
Oh, like this?

Vote: MiX

Scummy how much MiX wants to be a part of the block, but also MiX.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: MiX on June 03, 2019, 02:02:48 pm
Okay, here's an interesting tidbit I almost forgot about: D2 is MyLo. Or at least can be. Fun setup, right? Is it at all useful?

I don't think this is right.




If there's 2 Traitors it is.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: silverspawn on June 03, 2019, 02:03:21 pm
you think I'm an Awaclus
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: gkrieg13 on June 03, 2019, 02:05:31 pm
Okay, here's an interesting tidbit I almost forgot about: D2 is MyLo. Or at least can be. Fun setup, right? Is it at all useful?

I don't think this is right.




If there's 2 Traitors it is.

I actually think it is worse than this. I'm pretty sure mafia can just outright win N1 if a certain set of things happens
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: silverspawn on June 03, 2019, 02:05:38 pm
Oh, like this?

Vote: MiX

Scummy how much MiX wants to be a part of the block, but also MiX.

Why is it scummy to want to be part of the block? I felt a desire to be part of the block and considered asking, and then didn't because I dreaded the scrutiny that might have followed. If anything I think it's towny to show that you want to be part of the block. (Though actually, I didn't catch where MiX expressed interest, but I'll take your word that they did).
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: silverspawn on June 03, 2019, 02:06:47 pm
vote: gkrieg this is the kind of setup comment that can't possibly be good for town
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: gkrieg13 on June 03, 2019, 02:07:20 pm
Oh, like this?

Vote: MiX

Scummy how much MiX wants to be a part of the block, but also MiX.

Why is it scummy to want to be part of the block? I felt a desire to be part of the block and considered asking, and then didn't because I dreaded the scrutiny that might have followed. If anything I think it's towny to show that you want to be part of the block. (Though actually, I didn't catch where MiX expressed interest, but I'll take your word that they did).

I guess it is more that instead of expressing they wanted to be part of the block, MiX just voted with the block (even though it was a self vote).
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: EFHW on June 03, 2019, 02:07:38 pm
vote: gkrieg this is the kind of setup comment that can't possibly be good for town
Which comment?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Glooble on June 03, 2019, 02:08:16 pm
Okay, here's an interesting tidbit I almost forgot about: D2 is MyLo. Or at least can be. Fun setup, right? Is it at all useful?

I don't think this is right.




If there's 2 Traitors it is.

Check your math again.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: gkrieg13 on June 03, 2019, 02:08:57 pm
vote: gkrieg this is the kind of setup comment that can't possibly be good for town

I was just verifying that what MiX said (and Glooble refuted) was accurate. If you look at the setup, scum has no way of influencing this set of things to happen, so I don't know why it has any affect good or bad for town.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: gkrieg13 on June 03, 2019, 02:09:29 pm
Okay, here's an interesting tidbit I almost forgot about: D2 is MyLo. Or at least can be. Fun setup, right? Is it at all useful?

I don't think this is right.




If there's 2 Traitors it is.

Check your math again.

No you
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: silverspawn on June 03, 2019, 02:09:47 pm
Oh, like this?

Vote: MiX

Scummy how much MiX wants to be a part of the block, but also MiX.

Why is it scummy to want to be part of the block? I felt a desire to be part of the block and considered asking, and then didn't because I dreaded the scrutiny that might have followed. If anything I think it's towny to show that you want to be part of the block. (Though actually, I didn't catch where MiX expressed interest, but I'll take your word that they did).

I guess it is more that instead of expressing they wanted to be part of the block, MiX just voted with the block (even though it was a self vote).

Oh, that. I wouldn't call that wanting to be part of the block, rather signaling carelessness. Which is a towny thing that scum have learned to emulate so not very reliable of a signal anymore.

vote: gkrieg this is the kind of setup comment that can't possibly be good for town
Which comment?

The one about mafia winning N1.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Glooble on June 03, 2019, 02:20:23 pm
vote: gkrieg this is the kind of setup comment that can't possibly be good for town


Sorry, but why not? What exactly is wrong with making sure town is aware of how much or little time we might have, and how much leeway there is for making mistakes? I understand the underlying reason for not discussing the setup, but this seems like an exception to me. It's quite likely I'm missing something though. So if you can tell me why you think this particular line of questioning is anti-town I'd love to hear it.

That being said, if there's some reason why even explaining that is anti-town then please do not explain and I will abide by the consensus.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: MiX on June 03, 2019, 02:21:13 pm
I could sheep vote: Uncleeurope here.

Vote: Jotheonah

My vote is lazy because of the yawn, get it? Itís a joke, haha.

Also, Joth is sheeping what exactly? Does he find me scummy himself? Stay tuned for the next episode to find out. Have some backbone and say you think Iím a baddie.

Terrible joke, terrible reason to vote. You're town.


Yes, voting myself was me saying that I wanted to join the block. Not gonna quote all the discussion around it.

I can't believe gkrieg is right that mafia can win N1. That's hilarious.

vote: gkrieg this is the kind of setup comment that can't possibly be good for town

Vote: ss
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Uncleeurope on June 03, 2019, 02:32:40 pm
Does this mean I am an IC, MiX?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: MiX on June 03, 2019, 02:33:58 pm
Does this mean I am an IC, MiX?

There's no ICs in this setup, so no.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Uncleeurope on June 03, 2019, 02:36:52 pm
Does this mean I am an IC, MiX?

There's no ICs in this setup, so no.

Well, I tried.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Debatepro on June 03, 2019, 02:52:19 pm
Okay, actual scumhunting...

Curious, what are you doing that is scumhunting? You don't leave enough time for someone to join you.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: MiX on June 03, 2019, 02:58:50 pm
Okay, actual scumhunting...

Curious, what are you doing that is scumhunting? You don't leave enough time for someone to join you.

Interacting, pushing certain things, saying others to see how people reply, putting down reads and see who agrees with what and their general reaction, explaining this point to hopefully know what you were expecting and, thus, know what point of view you had and how that aligns with town/scum you.

Besides, I always want to give something to reread later so I can go "wow I was so wrong this is so scummy/towny when I thought it was towny/scummy" which tend to be the most accurate reads.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: silverspawn on June 03, 2019, 03:01:06 pm
Both MiX and their wagon are scummy.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: faust on June 03, 2019, 04:00:09 pm
Vote Count 1.1

MiX (4): mcmcsalot, A Drowned Kernel, pingpongsam, Debatepro
jotheonah (1): Uncleeurope
Uncleeurope (1): jotheonah
mcmcsalot (1): EFHW
ashersky (1): gkrieg13
gkrieg13 (1): silverspawn
silverspawn (1): MiX

Not Voting (5): Glooble, DatSwan, 2.71828....., ashersky, pubby

With 15 alive, it takes 8 to lynch. Day 1 ends on June 10, 2019, 10:00:00 am.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Uncleeurope on June 03, 2019, 04:11:04 pm
Both MiX and their wagon are scummy.

Iíve missed you, bud.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: jotheonah on June 03, 2019, 04:12:32 pm
Setup talk is bad here, I think, so let's not.

This is a town tell for ADK, I suppose.

?

Last game ADK was scum and started the game off with a ton of setup talk. Thatís the joke.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: MiX on June 03, 2019, 04:18:02 pm
Setup talk is bad here, I think, so let's not.

This is a town tell for ADK, I suppose.

?

Last game ADK was scum and started the game off with a ton of setup talk. Thatís the joke.

Terrible joke, ADK not discussion setup's null precisely because of that.

Scum team: joth/gkrieg/ss/e, mcmc's survivor. There, game solved. Oh, except I'm not sure who's traitor yet.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: jotheonah on June 03, 2019, 04:18:34 pm
I could sheep vote: Uncleeurope here.

Vote: Jotheonah

My vote is lazy because of the yawn, get it? Itís a joke, haha.

Also, Joth is sheeping what exactly? Does he find me scummy himself? Stay tuned for the next episode to find out. Have some backbone and say you think Iím a baddie.

óóóóóóóóthe jokeóóóóóó>


......................(joth).....................

But I did think your vote was actually lazy, jumping on the giant random MiX wagon without adding anything to it.

This is obviously very different from what I did, which was to jump on the very small Eddie wagon without adding anything to it.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: 2.71828..... on June 03, 2019, 04:56:51 pm
Hi everyone! So MiX is scum and everyone else is scummy?

Sounds about right.

Except Uncle is IC of the day since he asked for it.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: 2.71828..... on June 03, 2019, 05:06:27 pm
Read the thread a bit more and I think I like a vote: silverspawn

Man, it must be a while since I was last in a game with them. My new(ish) phone doesn't recognize their name. silverspawn.

Working on it. Should be good soon. Google learns fast. silverspawn.

Got it.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Uncleeurope on June 03, 2019, 05:45:08 pm
Hi everyone! So MiX is scum and everyone else is scummy?

Sounds about right.

Except Uncle is IC of the day since he asked for it.

Ayyyyy, thatís what Iím talkiní about.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: MiX on June 03, 2019, 05:51:15 pm
Hi everyone! So MiX is scum and everyone else is scummy?

Sounds about right.

Except Uncle is IC of the day since he asked for it.

Ayyyyy, thatís what Iím talkiní about.

Oh, I just remembered last time you were town you also got a day 1 IC pass, so obviously you're town as well.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Uncleeurope on June 03, 2019, 05:58:05 pm
Hi everyone! So MiX is scum and everyone else is scummy?

Sounds about right.

Except Uncle is IC of the day since he asked for it.

Ayyyyy, thatís what Iím talkiní about.

Oh, I just remembered last time you were town you also got a day 1 IC pass, so obviously you're town as well.

Your logic is undeniable.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: pubby on June 03, 2019, 06:34:32 pm
vote: pingpongsam

 8)
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: silverspawn on June 03, 2019, 07:03:01 pm
good case. vote: pps
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: pingpongsam on June 03, 2019, 08:08:20 pm
good case. vote: pps

I mean, clearly Iíve been made redundant with this mix guy around. Self votes, check, calls the scum team D1, check, makes nearly incomprehensible analysis that is useless to everyone but maybe himself, check. I mean, I got nothing left to do here.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: A Drowned Kernel on June 03, 2019, 08:44:44 pm
Okay, actual scumhunting...

ash is town. Mcmc is town. Glooble is town. I have no idea what pps is. ADK is most likely scum, but I will not vote there, only in LyLo (won me last time). The person that is most likely going to win us the game if we lynch them today is

Vote: gkrieg

"Actual scumhunting: [votes for someone who hasn't posted yet]"
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: A Drowned Kernel on June 03, 2019, 08:46:36 pm
Okay, here's an interesting tidbit I almost forgot about: D2 is MyLo. Or at least can be. Fun setup, right? Is it at all useful?

No.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: A Drowned Kernel on June 03, 2019, 08:47:27 pm
5 votes in three hours...yep, I still got it.

I really don't think Eddie would play exactly the same way he did last time he was scum, and he just hit basically all the marks he was hitting before (then again I was his scumbuddy so I have some confirmation bias). On the other hand, joth's playing his townmeta a little bit too perfectly now.

gkrieg is scum, EFHW is town, Debatepro is null.

Damn, MiX got me...

I'm very much starting to get partner vibes from gkrieg and mix
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: A Drowned Kernel on June 03, 2019, 08:48:49 pm
Honestly I like most of what I see so far.

What do you like of what you saw so far?

Mainly that people were posting without contrived RVS votes, which seemed relaxed and non-scummy of them. Then mix self-voted and that ended.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: A Drowned Kernel on June 03, 2019, 08:52:18 pm
Setup talk is bad here, I think, so let's not.

This is a town tell for ADK, I suppose.

?

Last game ADK was scum and started the game off with a ton of setup talk. Thatís the joke.

Terrible joke, ADK not discussion setup's null precisely because of that.

Scum team: joth/gkrieg/ss/e, mcmc's survivor. There, game solved. Oh, except I'm not sure who's traitor yet.

There's too much scum on this list. Townslip or scum calculating a "townslip"?

But I'm actually feeling less strong about mix, so unvote
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: A Drowned Kernel on June 03, 2019, 08:52:40 pm
Read the thread a bit more and I think I like a vote: silverspawn

Man, it must be a while since I was last in a game with them. My new(ish) phone doesn't recognize their name. silverspawn.

Working on it. Should be good soon. Google learns fast. silverspawn.

Got it.

Why silver?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: A Drowned Kernel on June 03, 2019, 08:53:12 pm
good case. vote: pps

I mean, clearly Iíve been made redundant with this mix guy around. Self votes, check, calls the scum team D1, check, makes nearly incomprehensible analysis that is useless to everyone but maybe himself, check. I mean, I got nothing left to do here.

Well then vote: pps
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: pingpongsam on June 03, 2019, 09:00:05 pm
good case. vote: pps

I mean, clearly Iíve been made redundant with this mix guy around. Self votes, check, calls the scum team D1, check, makes nearly incomprehensible analysis that is useless to everyone but maybe himself, check. I mean, I got nothing left to do here.

Well then vote: pps

One of us has to go, right? Canít have two of this personality. This other guy seems to want to talk setup. You know I wonít do that. Iím usually good for an exciting fake claim with major plot holes if I am scum. Who doesnít want fun and excitement?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: ashersky on June 03, 2019, 10:33:38 pm
gkrieg's vote on me for the plan thing is super lazy.

Basically, all {ashersky,plan} posts are lazy and need to stop.  It was a meta thing like a year and a half ago.  It's personally exhausting and annoying at this point.

Yes, I still think about things and occasionally have plan-like ideas.  No, it is not an important thing anymore.

I mean, if anything, I definitely plan more as scum anyway.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: ashersky on June 03, 2019, 10:38:06 pm
As for the setup, I don't see any particular reason why the game ends on N1.  Is it technically possible given the setup?  Yes.  But it'd pretty unlikely, even given my terrible knowledge of statistics and probability.

5 scum + D1 mislynch + 2 PGOs being targeted separately by townies + N1 Town NKed + N1 Town Vigged = 5v5 on D2 open.  But man, no way that ever happens.

There's also nothing scummy about laying this all out -- if I can figure it out, so can scum.

Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: ashersky on June 03, 2019, 10:39:59 pm
I think not talking about how certain roles should be played (if they exist) is a better bit of advice, possibly.  A player's skill level could make the difference there, but without knowing alignments, it's tough to know if we want to help.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: 2.71828..... on June 04, 2019, 12:18:36 am
I hope we don't do another misbegotten ashersky lynch this game. Those last few posts read very town to me
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: DatSwan on June 04, 2019, 02:32:31 am
Hey all

I am going to assume I am missing something regarding the game, because I do not see how set up discussion here is bad (at least compared to... literally every other game I have played on this site where it is deemed either good, or just a nuisance). This is the first time while I have played it has been viewed as "bad".

If anything there is ambiguity surrounding all options in this set up more so than most we play.


*Insert standard wall post where I go over the details that I am leaving out because "talking about the set up is bad"*


If you read the above, or the set up, you will notice there are essentially 3 levels of information a player can have:

1) Skum - Know what they picked/have. They know how many other roles outside of the template one's exist. They don't know who is what role.

2) Town - Know themselves. Know what roles exist in the game. Same as always.

3) Third Party - Knows their role. Knows what roles exist in the game. Same as it could always be.


So, I don't get why people are opposed to the idea. I also do not see a huge upside I suppose. I think I find the thought of being against talking about it skummy though.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: DatSwan on June 04, 2019, 02:34:35 am
gkrieg's vote on me for the plan thing is super lazy.

Basically, all {ashersky,plan} posts are lazy and need to stop.  It was a meta thing like a year and a half ago.  It's personally exhausting and annoying at this point.

Yes, I still think about things and occasionally have plan-like ideas.  No, it is not an important thing anymore.

I mean, if anything, I definitely plan more as scum anyway.

I read this and then immediately went digging for this:

Also, for the record, hating on ashersky plans is just a hipster contrarianism thing to do. As Awaclus points out subconsciously, the efficacy of ashersky plans notwithstanding, the airing of, discussion of, and sometimes demolishing of ashersky plans is always pro-town. And generally they are pro-town regardless of my own alignment.

If you want to complain about ashersky plans, the correct way is to say it has zero bearing on my alignment so I deserve no town points for them. Unfortunately, I often do get scum points if I donít have one, so partly this is all your fault.

Separate to this, using waiting for the plan as an excuse to not otherwise engage is not an acceptable action.

Do Ash plans have zero bearing on your alignment, or do you do them more often as skum?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Uncleeurope on June 04, 2019, 03:01:18 am
I think the main concern people have with setup talk is connected to traitors.

I dunno, though.

Nor do I care, really.

But whatevs.

Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: ashersky on June 04, 2019, 05:42:35 am
gkrieg's vote on me for the plan thing is super lazy.

Basically, all {ashersky,plan} posts are lazy and need to stop.  It was a meta thing like a year and a half ago.  It's personally exhausting and annoying at this point.

Yes, I still think about things and occasionally have plan-like ideas.  No, it is not an important thing anymore.

I mean, if anything, I definitely plan more as scum anyway.

I read this and then immediately went digging for this:

Also, for the record, hating on ashersky plans is just a hipster contrarianism thing to do. As Awaclus points out subconsciously, the efficacy of ashersky plans notwithstanding, the airing of, discussion of, and sometimes demolishing of ashersky plans is always pro-town. And generally they are pro-town regardless of my own alignment.

If you want to complain about ashersky plans, the correct way is to say it has zero bearing on my alignment so I deserve no town points for them. Unfortunately, I often do get scum points if I donít have one, so partly this is all your fault.

Separate to this, using waiting for the plan as an excuse to not otherwise engage is not an acceptable action.

Do Ash plans have zero bearing on your alignment, or do you do them more often as skum?

I hate phone posting. Lost my response.

Gist: both, there is a difference between ďhaving a planĒ and planning. Ask my scum partners from foreveróI plan. So should you, btw.

The plan that gkrieg talks about is the public one I was forced to produce every game for years when I was active and one of the ďbestĒ players here. It became a farce.

You want a ďplanĒ?  I can make one up. If you want my planning, check out our scum QT.  I already told you what I think you should do if you got PGO.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: MiX on June 04, 2019, 06:03:17 am
good case. vote: pps

I mean, clearly Iíve been made redundant with this mix guy around. Self votes, check, calls the scum team D1, check, makes nearly incomprehensible analysis that is useless to everyone but maybe himself, check. I mean, I got nothing left to do here.

Where do you think I got my inspiration?

Scum team: joth/gkrieg/ss/e, mcmc's survivor. There, game solved. Oh, except I'm not sure who's traitor yet.

There's too much scum on this list. Townslip or scum calculating a "townslip"?

But I'm actually feeling less strong about mix, so unvote

But...there's 4 scum.

good case. vote: pps

I mean, clearly Iíve been made redundant with this mix guy around. Self votes, check, calls the scum team D1, check, makes nearly incomprehensible analysis that is useless to everyone but maybe himself, check. I mean, I got nothing left to do here.

Well then vote: pps

One of us has to go, right? Canít have two of this personality. This other guy seems to want to talk setup. You know I wonít do that. Iím usually good for an exciting fake claim with major plot holes if I am scum. Who doesnít want fun and excitement?

Hopefully scum NKs one of us when they're tired of our nonsense. That's always my dream, but it never comes true...


ash's town. I think EFHW and Uncle have moved up in my scummy list...oh that reminds me I should setup my reads list, haven't played a D1 in too long apparently.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mcmcsalot on June 04, 2019, 07:09:41 am
Iíll say I agree completely with ashís self analysis.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Debatepro on June 04, 2019, 09:16:46 am
If you read the above, or the set up, you will notice there are essentially 3 levels of information a player can have:
1) Skum - Know what they picked/have. They know how many other roles outside of the template one's exist. They don't know who is what role.
2) Town - Know themselves. Know what roles exist in the game. Same as always.
3) Third Party - Knows their role. Knows what roles exist in the game. Same as it could always be.
So, I don't get why people are opposed to the idea. I also do not see a huge upside I suppose. I think I find the thought of being against talking about it skummy though.

I think the upside of this post and asher's  breakdown of how game could end N1 (151 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=19685.msg802691#msg802691)) is helpful to level set knowledge and information. I couldn't figure out how the game ends in N1 and I think some players assume everyone is playing at the same speed and level.

The dogma that "helpful" isn't alignment indicative is a common refrain, but actually if you look at it in context with other posts, that it can be very useful. It seems to me that scum need chaos and uncertainty.

We have a moral obligation to hunt down the earth saving scum, lest we let self-replicating machines get off the rock and destroy the universe.


Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: A Drowned Kernel on June 04, 2019, 09:30:55 am
1) Skum - Know what they picked/have. They know how many other roles outside of the template one's exist. They don't know who is what role.

The issue is that some scum don't have this info, and scum doesn't know their traitor, and traitor potentially doesn't know who mafia is, and setup talk provides a way for them to signal to each other.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: A Drowned Kernel on June 04, 2019, 09:35:08 am
Scum team: joth/gkrieg/ss/e, mcmc's survivor. There, game solved. Oh, except I'm not sure who's traitor yet.

There's too much scum on this list. Townslip or scum calculating a "townslip"?

But I'm actually feeling less strong about mix, so unvote

But...there's 4 scum.

There's 3 scum and a traitor, your post lists 4 then adds the traitor
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mcmcsalot on June 04, 2019, 09:40:34 am
unvote

Adk you make it very hard to stay a block when you are voting for one of the members
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: A Drowned Kernel on June 04, 2019, 09:50:05 am
unvote

Adk you make it very hard to stay a block when you are voting for one of the members

That's how i roll, deal with it
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on June 04, 2019, 10:01:10 am
Vote Count 1.2

MiX (2): pingpongsam, Debatepro
jotheonah (1): Uncleeurope
Uncleeurope (1): jotheonah
mcmcsalot (1): EFHW
ashersky (1): gkrieg13
silverspawn (2): MiX, 2.71828.....
pingpongsam (3): silverspawn, pubby, A Drowned Kernel

Not Voting (4): Glooble, DatSwan, ashersky, mcmcsalot

With 15 alive, it takes 8 to lynch. Day 1 ends on June 10, 2019, 10:00:00 am.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: MiX on June 04, 2019, 10:03:04 am
Scum team: joth/gkrieg/ss/e, mcmc's survivor. There, game solved. Oh, except I'm not sure who's traitor yet.

There's too much scum on this list. Townslip or scum calculating a "townslip"?

But I'm actually feeling less strong about mix, so unvote

But...there's 4 scum.

There's 3 scum and a traitor, your post lists 4 then adds the traitor

Ah, I thought this was the case. I meant "I don't know who is the traitor from those 4".

Debatepro seems to have a very...peculiar...flavour, and judging from mine I'd say he's town. Weird.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: EFHW on June 04, 2019, 10:04:17 am
1) Skum - Know what they picked/have. They know how many other roles outside of the template one's exist. They don't know who is what role.

The issue is that some scum don't have this info, and scum doesn't know their traitor, and traitor potentially doesn't know who mafia is, and setup talk provides a way for them to signal to each other.
I don't agree with this. Let them signal. Everyone is listening. We want everyone to talk.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: 2.71828..... on June 04, 2019, 10:45:56 am
@mod, I am voting silverspawn not PPS
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: A Drowned Kernel on June 04, 2019, 10:47:38 am
Scum team: joth/gkrieg/ss/e, mcmc's survivor. There, game solved. Oh, except I'm not sure who's traitor yet.

There's too much scum on this list. Townslip or scum calculating a "townslip"?

But I'm actually feeling less strong about mix, so unvote

But...there's 4 scum.

There's 3 scum and a traitor, your post lists 4 then adds the traitor

Ah, I thought this was the case. I meant "I don't know who is the traitor from those 4".

Debatepro seems to have a very...peculiar...flavour, and judging from mine I'd say he's town. Weird.

So not a township, then. But the fact that you're not playing it up as one is promising
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on June 04, 2019, 11:05:34 am
Vote Count 1.2 corrected

MiX (2): pingpongsam, Debatepro
jotheonah (1): Uncleeurope
Uncleeurope (1): jotheonah
mcmcsalot (1): EFHW
ashersky (1): gkrieg13
silverspawn (2): MiX, 2.71828.....
pingpongsam (3): silverspawn, pubby, A Drowned Kernel

Not Voting (4): Glooble, DatSwan, ashersky, mcmcsalot

With 15 alive, it takes 8 to lynch. Day 1 ends on June 10, 2019, 10:00:00 am.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: DatSwan on June 04, 2019, 11:20:26 am
gkrieg's vote on me for the plan thing is super lazy.

Basically, all {ashersky,plan} posts are lazy and need to stop.  It was a meta thing like a year and a half ago.  It's personally exhausting and annoying at this point.

Yes, I still think about things and occasionally have plan-like ideas.  No, it is not an important thing anymore.

I mean, if anything, I definitely plan more as scum anyway.

I read this and then immediately went digging for this:

Also, for the record, hating on ashersky plans is just a hipster contrarianism thing to do. As Awaclus points out subconsciously, the efficacy of ashersky plans notwithstanding, the airing of, discussion of, and sometimes demolishing of ashersky plans is always pro-town. And generally they are pro-town regardless of my own alignment.

If you want to complain about ashersky plans, the correct way is to say it has zero bearing on my alignment so I deserve no town points for them. Unfortunately, I often do get scum points if I donít have one, so partly this is all your fault.

Separate to this, using waiting for the plan as an excuse to not otherwise engage is not an acceptable action.

Do Ash plans have zero bearing on your alignment, or do you do them more often as skum?

I hate phone posting. Lost my response.

Gist: both, there is a difference between ďhaving a planĒ and planning. Ask my scum partners from foreveróI plan. So should you, btw.

The plan that gkrieg talks about is the public one I was forced to produce every game for years when I was active and one of the ďbestĒ players here. It became a farce.

You want a ďplanĒ?  I can make one up. If you want my planning, check out our scum QT.  I already told you what I think you should do if you got PGO.

Plan being the aside point - I was more fixated on the contradictions between the two posts.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: gkrieg13 on June 04, 2019, 11:55:02 am
Setup talk is bad here, I think, so let's not.

This is a town tell for ADK, I suppose.

?

Last game ADK was scum and started the game off with a ton of setup talk. Thatís the joke.

Terrible joke, ADK not discussion setup's null precisely because of that.

Scum team: joth/gkrieg/ss/e, mcmc's survivor. There, game solved. Oh, except I'm not sure who's traitor yet.

There's too much scum on this list. Townslip or scum calculating a "townslip"?

But I'm actually feeling less strong about mix, so unvote

Uh it isnít too much scum?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: gkrieg13 on June 04, 2019, 11:58:07 am
gkrieg's vote on me for the plan thing is super lazy.

Basically, all {ashersky,plan} posts are lazy and need to stop.  It was a meta thing like a year and a half ago.  It's personally exhausting and annoying at this point.

Yes, I still think about things and occasionally have plan-like ideas.  No, it is not an important thing anymore.

I mean, if anything, I definitely plan more as scum anyway.

I read this and then immediately went digging for this:

Also, for the record, hating on ashersky plans is just a hipster contrarianism thing to do. As Awaclus points out subconsciously, the efficacy of ashersky plans notwithstanding, the airing of, discussion of, and sometimes demolishing of ashersky plans is always pro-town. And generally they are pro-town regardless of my own alignment.

If you want to complain about ashersky plans, the correct way is to say it has zero bearing on my alignment so I deserve no town points for them. Unfortunately, I often do get scum points if I donít have one, so partly this is all your fault.

Separate to this, using waiting for the plan as an excuse to not otherwise engage is not an acceptable action.

Do Ash plans have zero bearing on your alignment, or do you do them more often as skum?

I hate phone posting. Lost my response.

Gist: both, there is a difference between ďhaving a planĒ and planning. Ask my scum partners from foreveróI plan. So should you, btw.

The plan that gkrieg talks about is the public one I was forced to produce every game for years when I was active and one of the ďbestĒ players here. It became a farce.

You want a ďplanĒ?  I can make one up. If you want my planning, check out our scum QT.  I already told you what I think you should do if you got PGO.

But it is possible that not having a plan was your plan all along.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: gkrieg13 on June 04, 2019, 12:01:22 pm
1) Skum - Know what they picked/have. They know how many other roles outside of the template one's exist. They don't know who is what role.

The issue is that some scum don't have this info, and scum doesn't know their traitor, and traitor potentially doesn't know who mafia is, and setup talk provides a way for them to signal to each other.
I don't agree with this. Let them signal. Everyone is listening. We want everyone to talk.

As someone who has been lynched for extremely obvious signaling, I agree with this here. I think it is much less likely they successfully signal and no one from town catches it than they out themselves and we can lynch them.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: MiX on June 04, 2019, 12:16:18 pm
1) Skum - Know what they picked/have. They know how many other roles outside of the template one's exist. They don't know who is what role.

The issue is that some scum don't have this info, and scum doesn't know their traitor, and traitor potentially doesn't know who mafia is, and setup talk provides a way for them to signal to each other.
I don't agree with this. Let them signal. Everyone is listening. We want everyone to talk.

As someone who has been lynched for extremely obvious signaling, I agree with this here. I think it is much less likely they successfully signal and no one from town catches it than they out themselves and we can lynch them.

We can also continue to help the Traitor know how they should play and what we expect of him, that's always nice.

Vote: gkrieg
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: 2.71828..... on June 04, 2019, 12:58:57 pm
All this talk about plans.

*Insert Joker meme about introducing anarchy*
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: 2.71828..... on June 04, 2019, 01:00:23 pm
gkrieg's vote on me for the plan thing is super lazy.

Basically, all {ashersky,plan} posts are lazy and need to stop.  It was a meta thing like a year and a half ago.  It's personally exhausting and annoying at this point.

Yes, I still think about things and occasionally have plan-like ideas.  No, it is not an important thing anymore.

I mean, if anything, I definitely plan more as scum anyway.

I read this and then immediately went digging for this:

Also, for the record, hating on ashersky plans is just a hipster contrarianism thing to do. As Awaclus points out subconsciously, the efficacy of ashersky plans notwithstanding, the airing of, discussion of, and sometimes demolishing of ashersky plans is always pro-town. And generally they are pro-town regardless of my own alignment.

If you want to complain about ashersky plans, the correct way is to say it has zero bearing on my alignment so I deserve no town points for them. Unfortunately, I often do get scum points if I donít have one, so partly this is all your fault.

Separate to this, using waiting for the plan as an excuse to not otherwise engage is not an acceptable action.

Do Ash plans have zero bearing on your alignment, or do you do them more often as skum?

I hate phone posting. Lost my response.

Gist: both, there is a difference between ďhaving a planĒ and planning. Ask my scum partners from foreveróI plan. So should you, btw.

The plan that gkrieg talks about is the public one I was forced to produce every game for years when I was active and one of the ďbestĒ players here. It became a farce.

You want a ďplanĒ?  I can make one up. If you want my planning, check out our scum QT.  I already told you what I think you should do if you got PGO.

Plan being the aside point - I was more fixated on the contradictions between the two posts.

I am sure if I search hard enough I can find you contradict yourself in two different mafia games.

Vote: Datswan
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: gkrieg13 on June 04, 2019, 01:04:02 pm
1) Skum - Know what they picked/have. They know how many other roles outside of the template one's exist. They don't know who is what role.

The issue is that some scum don't have this info, and scum doesn't know their traitor, and traitor potentially doesn't know who mafia is, and setup talk provides a way for them to signal to each other.
I don't agree with this. Let them signal. Everyone is listening. We want everyone to talk.

As someone who has been lynched for extremely obvious signaling, I agree with this here. I think it is much less likely they successfully signal and no one from town catches it than they out themselves and we can lynch them.

We can also continue to help the Traitor know how they should play and what we expect of him, that's always nice.

Vote: gkrieg

But you don't think EFWH is scummy for saying essentially the same thing?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: jotheonah on June 04, 2019, 01:06:00 pm
I cannot get into this game guys. Try as I might.

One thing I'm thinking about is mcmc's voting bloc. How does scum react to this idea (assuming, for the purposes of argument that it was a serious plan)? Do they want to be part of the bloc so they can steer it? Do they want to avoid it so their vote is less constrained?

I found MiX's reaction to the bloc -- really wanting to get in and even voting for himself to prove his loyalty -- to be the only interesting reaction. I think it might be scummy.

I know most of us saw that whole thing as a little silly, but I can see scum seeing it as a little scary and feeling the need to react to it, or become part of it, as quickly as possible.

I guess that's enough for me to vote: MiX
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: MiX on June 04, 2019, 01:09:02 pm
1) Skum - Know what they picked/have. They know how many other roles outside of the template one's exist. They don't know who is what role.

The issue is that some scum don't have this info, and scum doesn't know their traitor, and traitor potentially doesn't know who mafia is, and setup talk provides a way for them to signal to each other.
I don't agree with this. Let them signal. Everyone is listening. We want everyone to talk.

As someone who has been lynched for extremely obvious signaling, I agree with this here. I think it is much less likely they successfully signal and no one from town catches it than they out themselves and we can lynch them.

We can also continue to help the Traitor know how they should play and what we expect of him, that's always nice.

Vote: gkrieg

But you don't think EFWH is scummy for saying essentially the same thing?

I do.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: MiX on June 04, 2019, 01:15:45 pm
I cannot get into this game guys. Try as I might.

One thing I'm thinking about is mcmc's voting bloc. How does scum react to this idea (assuming, for the purposes of argument that it was a serious plan)? Do they want to be part of the bloc so they can steer it? Do they want to avoid it so their vote is less constrained?

I found MiX's reaction to the bloc -- really wanting to get in and even voting for himself to prove his loyalty -- to be the only interesting reaction. I think it might be scummy.

I know most of us saw that whole thing as a little silly, but I can see scum seeing it as a little scary and feeling the need to react to it, or become part of it, as quickly as possible.

I guess that's enough for me to vote: MiX

What makes you think scum would react more to the block than town? As scum, as much as they know, there's a traitor in there, why would they be scared?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: pingpongsam on June 04, 2019, 01:21:20 pm
Is tunneling on the notion of a traitor in the same vein as tunneling on finding the SK (i.e. scumtell)?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Glooble on June 04, 2019, 01:40:35 pm
Is tunneling on the notion of a traitor in the same vein as tunneling on finding the SK (i.e. scumtell)?

I would think not. Scum actually wants the SK lynched. They absolutely do not want the traitor lynched. Big difference.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: jotheonah on June 04, 2019, 01:41:07 pm
I cannot get into this game guys. Try as I might.

One thing I'm thinking about is mcmc's voting bloc. How does scum react to this idea (assuming, for the purposes of argument that it was a serious plan)? Do they want to be part of the bloc so they can steer it? Do they want to avoid it so their vote is less constrained?

I found MiX's reaction to the bloc -- really wanting to get in and even voting for himself to prove his loyalty -- to be the only interesting reaction. I think it might be scummy.

I know most of us saw that whole thing as a little silly, but I can see scum seeing it as a little scary and feeling the need to react to it, or become part of it, as quickly as possible.

I guess that's enough for me to vote: MiX

What makes you think scum would react more to the block than town? As scum, as much as they know, there's a traitor in there, why would they be scared?

I think scum just tends to spook more easily. When I play as scum I'm kind of paranoid about being discovered and about ending up the day 1 lynch. It can lead to overreacting to innocuous things. See also: freaking out about small wagons.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Debatepro on June 04, 2019, 01:45:01 pm
I know most of us saw that whole thing as a little silly, but I can see scum seeing it as a little scary and feeling the need to react to it, or become part of it, as quickly as possible.

Eh.. Let's not lump all the votes on MiX under this banner. It's "post hoc ergo propter hoc". I am town and I like voting for MiX. I might always vote for him in N1.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Debatepro on June 04, 2019, 01:49:10 pm
Can a friendly town person please give me a high-level explanation of what the traitor is and how it works? I've never played with one and read the mafia wiki on it, but I'm still unsure how it works in or could work in this game.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: pingpongsam on June 04, 2019, 01:54:33 pm
Is tunneling on the notion of a traitor in the same vein as tunneling on finding the SK (i.e. scumtell)?

I would think not. Scum actually wants the SK lynched. They absolutely do not want the traitor lynched. Big difference.

Okay, that makes a lot more sense than I was thinking any argument against possibly could have. I can see how dense I was being.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: 2.71828..... on June 04, 2019, 02:33:20 pm
Can a friendly town person please give me a high-level explanation of what the traitor is and how it works? I've never played with one and read the mafia wiki on it, but I'm still unsure how it works in or could work in this game.

friendly - check
high level - very questionable

Traitor is a member of the mafia (NOT a 3rd party).  So in this game just think of it as we have 4 mafia, 1 third party

In a vanilla run of this setup (no modifications) the 3 normal mafia will share the mafia qt, they do not know the traitor, and the traitor doesn't know them.  If the mafia NK the traitor, instead of the traitor dying the traitor becomes a regular member of the mafia and has access to the qt.  If modifications are selected then they occur as stated, but just think of the vanilla style and modify from there.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: silverspawn on June 04, 2019, 02:38:54 pm
Is tunneling on the notion of a traitor in the same vein as tunneling on finding the SK (i.e. scumtell)?

SK hunting has never been a scum tell, so it doesn't really matter. People think it's a scum tell, but they're all wrong.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: silverspawn on June 04, 2019, 02:40:28 pm
What e said, and also the traitor cannot use the NK as long as he hasn't been recruited (i.e. the mafia targeted them with the NK).
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: pingpongsam on June 04, 2019, 02:43:57 pm
Is tunneling on the notion of a traitor in the same vein as tunneling on finding the SK (i.e. scumtell)?

SK hunting has never been a scum tell, so it doesn't really matter. People think it's a scum tell, but they're all wrong.

No, you are pretty much verifiably wrong, there.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: pingpongsam on June 04, 2019, 02:46:07 pm
They way I view traitor (in vanilla) is that town is sufficiently strong to allow scum another man but not so strong as to make him part of the starting team.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: gkrieg13 on June 04, 2019, 03:17:23 pm
1) Skum - Know what they picked/have. They know how many other roles outside of the template one's exist. They don't know who is what role.

The issue is that some scum don't have this info, and scum doesn't know their traitor, and traitor potentially doesn't know who mafia is, and setup talk provides a way for them to signal to each other.
I don't agree with this. Let them signal. Everyone is listening. We want everyone to talk.

As someone who has been lynched for extremely obvious signaling, I agree with this here. I think it is much less likely they successfully signal and no one from town catches it than they out themselves and we can lynch them.

We can also continue to help the Traitor know how they should play and what we expect of him, that's always nice.

Vote: gkrieg

But you don't think EFWH is scummy for saying essentially the same thing?

I do.

Why am I scummier than EFHW?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: gkrieg13 on June 04, 2019, 03:18:19 pm
What e said, and also the traitor cannot use the NK as long as he hasn't been recruited (i.e. the mafia targeted them with the NK).

Or in most setups the traitor inherits the night kill if they are the last mafia left alive.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: MiX on June 04, 2019, 03:21:02 pm
Why am I scummier than EFHW?

You explained a point that didn't have to be explained further, and in fact I think it was anti-town to explain it. EFHW left it more in the wind.

On the other hand you're town now and EFHW's scummier still, so maybe I was wrong.

Vote: ss
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: EFHW on June 04, 2019, 03:44:45 pm
MiX is fickle.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: EFHW on June 04, 2019, 03:48:07 pm
I see ash's point about wanting to get out of the plan business. People like to rely on them as a way to get out of RVS, but why should he be responsible for doing that every game? Also, they are NAI. And finally, that post DatSwan found is 5 months old and not even a contradiction, really.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Glooble on June 04, 2019, 03:49:59 pm
MiX is fickle.

In other news, the Pope is Catholic.

One of these games I'll learn how to read MiX.
I see ash's point about wanting to get out of the plan business. People like to rely on them as a way to get out of RVS, but why should he be responsible for doing that every game? Also, they are NAI. And finally, that post DatSwan found is 5 months old and not even a contradiction, really.


I was thinking this too. I think I like vote: DatSwan better than MiX for now.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: EFHW on June 04, 2019, 03:51:42 pm
I'm realizing that DatSwan is getting a meta for imprecision. Anyone else I would have voted for misreading ash (plans vs. planning) and mischaracterizing a post. I don't think that's a great meta for us to accept complacently, so vote: DatSwan anyway.

PPE: Glooble
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: jotheonah on June 04, 2019, 04:19:07 pm
Unofficial vote count (because I wanted one after that flurry of votes so I figured others might too)

pingpongsam (3): silverspawn, pubby, A Drowned Kernel
DatSwan (3): 2.71828Ö.., Glooble, EFHW
MiX (3): pingpongsam, Debatepro, jotheonah
silverspawn (1): MiX
jotheonah (1): Uncleeurope
ashersky (1): gkrieg13

Not Voting (3): DatSwan, ashersky, mcmcsalot

8 to lynch. So we have three cute lil' miniwagons and like a good week before deadline.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: MiX on June 04, 2019, 04:25:35 pm
I'm realizing that DatSwan is getting a meta for imprecision. Anyone else I would have voted for misreading ash (plans vs. planning) and mischaracterizing a post. I don't think that's a great meta for us to accept complacently, so vote: DatSwan anyway.

PPE: Glooble

We did that last time, and that's how we lynched scum. I seriously doubt he would do this on purpose this game.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Glooble on June 04, 2019, 04:40:04 pm
I'm realizing that DatSwan is getting a meta for imprecision. Anyone else I would have voted for misreading ash (plans vs. planning) and mischaracterizing a post. I don't think that's a great meta for us to accept complacently, so vote: DatSwan anyway.

PPE: Glooble

We did that last time, and that's how we lynched scum. I seriously doubt he would do this on purpose this game.

He's not doing the same thing though. In that game DatSwan spent a lot of day 1 just straight up pretending to have misread crucial portions of the setup (I assume to make people think he couldn't possibly be scum, since scum think harder about that stuff and have a QT to discuss it before the game starts.)  That's very different than presenting a misleading case on another player.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: MiX on June 04, 2019, 04:41:46 pm
I'm realizing that DatSwan is getting a meta for imprecision. Anyone else I would have voted for misreading ash (plans vs. planning) and mischaracterizing a post. I don't think that's a great meta for us to accept complacently, so vote: DatSwan anyway.

PPE: Glooble

We did that last time, and that's how we lynched scum. I seriously doubt he would do this on purpose this game.

He's not doing the same thing though. In that game DatSwan spent a lot of day 1 just straight up pretending to have misread crucial portions of the setup (I assume to make people think he couldn't possibly be scum, since scum think harder about that stuff and have a QT to discuss it before the game starts.)  That's very different than presenting a misleading case on another player.

And when has Swan presented a case on ash? He merely pointed out an inconsistency, which was something I was also thinking about knowing how ash talked about plans in the recent past.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Glooble on June 04, 2019, 04:50:42 pm
I'm realizing that DatSwan is getting a meta for imprecision. Anyone else I would have voted for misreading ash (plans vs. planning) and mischaracterizing a post. I don't think that's a great meta for us to accept complacently, so vote: DatSwan anyway.

PPE: Glooble

We did that last time, and that's how we lynched scum. I seriously doubt he would do this on purpose this game.

He's not doing the same thing though. In that game DatSwan spent a lot of day 1 just straight up pretending to have misread crucial portions of the setup (I assume to make people think he couldn't possibly be scum, since scum think harder about that stuff and have a QT to discuss it before the game starts.)  That's very different than presenting a misleading case on another player.

And when has Swan presented a case on ash? He merely pointed out an inconsistency, which was something I was also thinking about knowing how ash talked about plans in the recent past.

I suppose you're right that DatSwan didn't exactly make a case on Ash. Or rather, the case was implied by his question, but not stated outright.  Either way, the point is he mischaracterized ash's statement. And that's scummy.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: MiX on June 04, 2019, 04:54:41 pm
I'm realizing that DatSwan is getting a meta for imprecision. Anyone else I would have voted for misreading ash (plans vs. planning) and mischaracterizing a post. I don't think that's a great meta for us to accept complacently, so vote: DatSwan anyway.

PPE: Glooble

We did that last time, and that's how we lynched scum. I seriously doubt he would do this on purpose this game.

He's not doing the same thing though. In that game DatSwan spent a lot of day 1 just straight up pretending to have misread crucial portions of the setup (I assume to make people think he couldn't possibly be scum, since scum think harder about that stuff and have a QT to discuss it before the game starts.)  That's very different than presenting a misleading case on another player.

And when has Swan presented a case on ash? He merely pointed out an inconsistency, which was something I was also thinking about knowing how ash talked about plans in the recent past.

I suppose you're right that DatSwan didn't exactly make a case on Ash. Or rather, the case was implied by his question, but not stated outright.  Either way, the point is he mischaracterized ash's statement. And that's scummy.


In what do you base your suspicion that scum is more likely to misinterpret and mischaracterize ash's statement?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Glooble on June 04, 2019, 05:04:40 pm

In what do you base your suspicion that scum is more likely to misinterpret and mischaracterize ash's statement?

Not sure I understand your question. Misinterpret and Mischaracterize are very different things.

Scum is more likely to mischaracterize ash's statement because that helps them win. Intentionally mischaracterizing another player's statement as town is very bad play.

Scum isn't any more likely to misinterpret ash's statement, but I don't think that's what happened here.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: MiX on June 04, 2019, 05:13:09 pm

In what do you base your suspicion that scum is more likely to misinterpret and mischaracterize ash's statement?

Not sure I understand your question. Misinterpret and Mischaracterize are very different things.

Scum is more likely to mischaracterize ash's statement because that helps them win. Intentionally mischaracterizing another player's statement as town is very bad play.

Scum isn't any more likely to misinterpret ash's statement, but I don't think that's what happened here.


Intentionally misinterpretting exists, but I suppose that's just mischaracterizing?

How does mischaracterizing ash's statement help scum win?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Debatepro on June 04, 2019, 05:14:24 pm

In what do you base your suspicion that scum is more likely to misinterpret and mischaracterize ash's statement?

Not sure I understand your question. Misinterpret and Mischaracterize are very different things.

Scum is more likely to mischaracterize ash's statement because that helps them win. Intentionally mischaracterizing another player's statement as town is very bad play.

Scum isn't any more likely to misinterpret ash's statement, but I don't think that's what happened here.

Is the end result of the dialog around mischaractorizion plan vs. planning that DS gets scum points. Am I interpreting the intent correctly?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Glooble on June 04, 2019, 05:22:02 pm

How does mischaracterizing ash's statement help scum win?

This is kinda mafia 101 isnít it? Scum wants town players to be more suspicious of other town players. Scum also wants to look like theyíre scum hunting. In the scenario where DatSwan is scum and ash is town, DatSwanís statement accomplishes both those things.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: silverspawn on June 04, 2019, 05:22:18 pm
Scum isn't any more likely to misinterpret ash's statement, but I don't think that's what happened here.

This is another piece of very well established common wisdom that I suspect might be completely untrue. I very rarely intentionally mischaracterize people as scum.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: silverspawn on June 04, 2019, 05:24:06 pm
I notice that most of my posts are very non-commital general comments. That's because I don't have any strong feelings towards anyone yet that i could share. I also notice that I'm very self aware. Don't vote for me because of that, it's not a scum tell.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: MiX on June 04, 2019, 05:24:44 pm

How does mischaracterizing ash's statement help scum win?

This is kinda mafia 101 isnít it? Scum wants town players to be more suspicious of other town players. Scum also wants to look like theyíre scum hunting. In the scenario where DatSwan is scum and ash is town, DatSwanís statement accomplishes both those things.

You're still acting like Swan thinks this is at all alignment indicative, which might be false. I also fail to see in what world Swan would think that tidbit would make people scumread ash.

Scum isn't any more likely to misinterpret ash's statement, but I don't think that's what happened here.

This is another piece of very well established common wisdom that I suspect might be completely untrue. I very rarely intentionally mischaracterize people as scum.

That's another very true statement, said by scum themselves!

I notice that most of my posts are very non-commital general comments. That's because I don't have any strong feelings towards anyone yet that i could share. I also notice that I'm very self aware. Don't vote for me because of that, it's not a scum tell.

This defensiveness is, however.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Uncleeurope on June 04, 2019, 05:31:45 pm
Vote: MiX
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: MiX on June 04, 2019, 05:32:32 pm
Vote: MiX

Explain.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Glooble on June 04, 2019, 05:35:33 pm
I also fail to see in what world Swan would think that tidbit would make people scumread ash.

Really? Ash basically said (sorry canít quote Iím on mobile) ďIím more likely to make a plan as scumĒ and several months ago said ďmy plans arenít alignment indicativeĒ. The implicit argument in Swanís Question is ďhe contradicted himself so one of the statements must be a lieĒ. And since the older statement was in a game where ash was town, the further implication is that it is the quote from this game that is, in fact, the lie.

That was my interpretation anyway. But maybe Iím reading too much into Swanís post.

Anyway, this has been a fun Socratic discussion but my phone is about to die so I will be back in a few hours probably.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: silverspawn on June 04, 2019, 05:52:24 pm
This defensiveness is, however.

No.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: MiX on June 04, 2019, 05:52:52 pm
This defensiveness is, however.

No.

Unvote
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on June 04, 2019, 05:57:44 pm
Vote Count 1.3

MiX (4): pingpongsam, Debatepro, jotheonah, Uncleeurope
ashersky (1): gkrieg13
pingpongsam (3): silverspawn, pubby, A Drowned Kernel
DatSwan (3): 2.71828....., Glooble, EFHW


Not Voting (4): DatSwan, ashersky, mcmcsalot, MiX

With 15 alive, it takes 8 to lynch. Day 1 ends on June 10, 2019, 10:00:00 am.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: gkrieg13 on June 04, 2019, 06:03:24 pm
Of those, I don't really like the PPS wagon, I like the Datswan wagon, and don't think the MiX wagon is for very good reasons, although I think the people on the MiX wagon are probably town.

vote: Datswan
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: gkrieg13 on June 04, 2019, 06:05:12 pm

In what do you base your suspicion that scum is more likely to misinterpret and mischaracterize ash's statement?

Not sure I understand your question. Misinterpret and Mischaracterize are very different things.

Scum is more likely to mischaracterize ash's statement because that helps them win. Intentionally mischaracterizing another player's statement as town is very bad play.

Scum isn't any more likely to misinterpret ash's statement, but I don't think that's what happened here.


Intentionally misinterpretting exists, but I suppose that's just mischaracterizing?

How does mischaracterizing ash's statement help scum win?

If ash is town, ash is easy to mislynch, so getting a wagon going on him is a pretty good idea.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: gkrieg13 on June 04, 2019, 06:06:36 pm
I notice that most of my posts are very non-commital general comments. That's because I don't have any strong feelings towards anyone yet that i could share. I also notice that I'm very self aware. Don't vote for me because of that, it's not a scum tell.

Ugh I want to vote for you so badly, but every game I have done that you end up being town. Although people not voting for you yet D1 is a scum tell for you.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Debatepro on June 04, 2019, 06:19:57 pm
If ash is town, ash is easy to mislynch, so getting a wagon going on him is a pretty good idea.

For scum? Aren't you voting for him?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: silverspawn on June 04, 2019, 06:50:34 pm
I notice that most of my posts are very non-commital general comments. That's because I don't have any strong feelings towards anyone yet that i could share. I also notice that I'm very self aware. Don't vote for me because of that, it's not a scum tell.

Ugh I want to vote for you so badly, but every game I have done that you end up being town. Although people not voting for you yet D1 is a scum tell for you.

That... is probably empirically true, unfortunately.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: A Drowned Kernel on June 04, 2019, 07:09:43 pm
I'm realizing that DatSwan is getting a meta for imprecision. Anyone else I would have voted for misreading ash (plans vs. planning) and mischaracterizing a post. I don't think that's a great meta for us to accept complacently, so vote: DatSwan anyway.

PPE: Glooble

We did that last time, and that's how we lynched scum. I seriously doubt he would do this on purpose this game.

He's not doing the same thing though. In that game DatSwan spent a lot of day 1 just straight up pretending to have misread crucial portions of the setup (I assume to make people think he couldn't possibly be scum, since scum think harder about that stuff and have a QT to discuss it before the game starts.)  That's very different than presenting a misleading case on another player.

I have to more to say later but for the record, that was scum!swan sincerely misunderstanding the setup
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: pubby on June 04, 2019, 07:21:58 pm
I cannot get into this game guys. Try as I might.

That's OK. It means I won't feel guilty about...

vote: jotheonah

Not expecting to change my vote from this.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: gkrieg13 on June 04, 2019, 08:05:16 pm
If ash is town, ash is easy to mislynch, so getting a wagon going on him is a pretty good idea.

For scum? Aren't you voting for him?

Not any more.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: jotheonah on June 04, 2019, 09:31:48 pm
I cannot get into this game guys. Try as I might.

That's OK. It means I won't feel guilty about...

vote: jotheonah

Not expecting to change my vote from this.

Are you expecting to explain your vote?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: ashersky on June 04, 2019, 10:16:46 pm
For the record,  I don't actually scumread Swan for the hot take on plans.  I think the "I'm going to dig up an old quote" thing is more often from town trying to do a good thing. 

I don't think finding possible or actual contradictions to previous statements from previous games is all that useful, though.  But I think the idea that someone would want to do that is in general a town sentiment.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: ashersky on June 04, 2019, 10:17:56 pm
Anyone else having the "not secure" problem on f.ds, btw?  Like the https thing is not working.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: EFHW on June 04, 2019, 10:32:11 pm
unvote. DatSwan does this kind of thing a lot. It has gotten him lynched correctly and gotten him mislynched. My opinion is that scum isn't going to try a purposeful misdirect this early in the game.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: EFHW on June 04, 2019, 10:41:24 pm
I cannot get into this game guys. Try as I might.

One thing I'm thinking about is mcmc's voting bloc. How does scum react to this idea (assuming, for the purposes of argument that it was a serious plan)? Do they want to be part of the bloc so they can steer it? Do they want to avoid it so their vote is less constrained?

I found MiX's reaction to the bloc -- really wanting to get in and even voting for himself to prove his loyalty -- to be the only interesting reaction. I think it might be scummy.

I know most of us saw that whole thing as a little silly, but I can see scum seeing it as a little scary and feeling the need to react to it, or become part of it, as quickly as possible.

I guess that's enough for me to vote: MiX
The bloc was never going to be a thing. I guess there was that one game where someone was looking to make non-voting pacts. Was that MiX? But day 1 who would trust multiple other people enough to make a bloc? So wanting to join looks like playing along to me.

If there WAS going to be a real bloc, then scum would want in.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: A Drowned Kernel on June 04, 2019, 11:26:39 pm
Of those, I don't really like the PPS wagon, I like the Datswan wagon, and don't think the MiX wagon is for very good reasons, although I think the people on the MiX wagon are probably town.

vote: Datswan

Am I voting gkrieg yet? vote: gkrieg
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: A Drowned Kernel on June 04, 2019, 11:28:33 pm
Right now I'm feeling towny on: mix, SS, ash

Anyone else is pretty much up for grabs
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Uncleeurope on June 04, 2019, 11:37:55 pm
Yup, Vote: gkrieg is fine with me.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: DatSwan on June 05, 2019, 01:25:44 am
gkrieg's vote on me for the plan thing is super lazy.

Basically, all {ashersky,plan} posts are lazy and need to stop.  It was a meta thing like a year and a half ago.  It's personally exhausting and annoying at this point.

Yes, I still think about things and occasionally have plan-like ideas.  No, it is not an important thing anymore.

I mean, if anything, I definitely plan more as scum anyway.

I read this and then immediately went digging for this:

Also, for the record, hating on ashersky plans is just a hipster contrarianism thing to do. As Awaclus points out subconsciously, the efficacy of ashersky plans notwithstanding, the airing of, discussion of, and sometimes demolishing of ashersky plans is always pro-town. And generally they are pro-town regardless of my own alignment.

If you want to complain about ashersky plans, the correct way is to say it has zero bearing on my alignment so I deserve no town points for them. Unfortunately, I often do get scum points if I donít have one, so partly this is all your fault.

Separate to this, using waiting for the plan as an excuse to not otherwise engage is not an acceptable action.

Do Ash plans have zero bearing on your alignment, or do you do them more often as skum?

I hate phone posting. Lost my response.

Gist: both, there is a difference between ďhaving a planĒ and planning. Ask my scum partners from foreveróI plan. So should you, btw.

The plan that gkrieg talks about is the public one I was forced to produce every game for years when I was active and one of the ďbestĒ players here. It became a farce.

You want a ďplanĒ?  I can make one up. If you want my planning, check out our scum QT.  I already told you what I think you should do if you got PGO.

Plan being the aside point - I was more fixated on the contradictions between the two posts.

I am sure if I search hard enough I can find you contradict yourself in two different mafia games.

Vote: Datswan

This vote would be null if I voted for ash. Since I did not, that means this vote is because....hell if I know actually, but it makes it skummier.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: DatSwan on June 05, 2019, 01:26:37 am
I'm realizing that DatSwan is getting a meta for imprecision. Anyone else I would have voted for misreading ash (plans vs. planning) and mischaracterizing a post. I don't think that's a great meta for us to accept complacently, so vote: DatSwan anyway.

PPE: Glooble

I do not want this meta and I did not mis characterize anything.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: DatSwan on June 05, 2019, 01:36:13 am

In what do you base your suspicion that scum is more likely to misinterpret and mischaracterize ash's statement?

Not sure I understand your question. Misinterpret and Mischaracterize are very different things.

Scum is more likely to mischaracterize ash's statement because that helps them win. Intentionally mischaracterizing another player's statement as town is very bad play.

Scum isn't any more likely to misinterpret ash's statement, but I don't think that's what happened here.


Intentionally misinterpretting exists, but I suppose that's just mischaracterizing?

How does mischaracterizing ash's statement help scum win?

If ash is town, ash is easy to mislynch, so getting a wagon going on him is a pretty good idea.

1) So... I never made an attempt at all to get a wagon Ash.

2) By your own logic, "If Swan is Town, then GK is skummy for mischaracterizing their statement". Or is that not what is happening here and you are just mis interpreting?

3) This is a game based on unknown opinions and reads by a community of players. You could literally apply your concept to ANY post that is not already verified as a fact about another player.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: DatSwan on June 05, 2019, 01:36:51 am
Anyone else having the "not secure" problem on f.ds, btw?  Like the https thing is not working.


yes - for weeks now
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: DatSwan on June 05, 2019, 01:37:52 am
I'm realizing that DatSwan is getting a meta for imprecision. Anyone else I would have voted for misreading ash (plans vs. planning) and mischaracterizing a post. I don't think that's a great meta for us to accept complacently, so vote: DatSwan anyway.

PPE: Glooble

We did that last time, and that's how we lynched scum. I seriously doubt he would do this on purpose this game.

He's not doing the same thing though. In that game DatSwan spent a lot of day 1 just straight up pretending to have misread crucial portions of the setup (I assume to make people think he couldn't possibly be scum, since scum think harder about that stuff and have a QT to discuss it before the game starts.)  That's very different than presenting a misleading case on another player.

I have to more to say later but for the record, that was scum!swan sincerely misunderstanding the setup

ADK was my skum buddy and the skum thread is open now for that game. Please feel free to go back and check that I was sadly just being a freekin idiot.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: DatSwan on June 05, 2019, 01:42:02 am
I also fail to see in what world Swan would think that tidbit would make people scumread ash.

Really? Ash basically said (sorry canít quote Iím on mobile) ďIím more likely to make a plan as scumĒ and several months ago said ďmy plans arenít alignment indicativeĒ. The implicit argument in Swanís Question is ďhe contradicted himself so one of the statements must be a lieĒ. And since the older statement was in a game where ash was town, the further implication is that it is the quote from this game that is, in fact, the lie.

That was my interpretation anyway. But maybe Iím reading too much into Swanís post.

Anyway, this has been a fun Socratic discussion but my phone is about to die so I will be back in a few hours probably.

To clarify - my intention was exactly to insinuate this... but only to Ash to get an answer. I found their response about as towny as I suppose I could expect. To be specific... ash slightly deflected the point by making it about his lack of planning thus far. I doubt skum in that position risks doing that instead of simply battling back the way others ended up doing for him.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: MiX on June 05, 2019, 03:27:03 am
I cannot get into this game guys. Try as I might.

That's OK. It means I won't feel guilty about...

vote: jotheonah

Not expecting to change my vote from this.

Explain this and I will sheep.

Yup, Vote: gkrieg is fine with me.

Same as above.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Uncleeurope on June 05, 2019, 03:31:15 am
I cannot get into this game guys. Try as I might.

That's OK. It means I won't feel guilty about...

vote: jotheonah

Not expecting to change my vote from this.

Explain this and I will sheep.

Yup, Vote: gkrieg is fine with me.

Same as above.

But I don't feeeeel like it.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: MiX on June 05, 2019, 03:32:12 am
All the votes on Swan are lazy and he has done nothing scummy.

Gkrieg, can you explain why Swan is scum?

unvote. DatSwan does this kind of thing a lot. It has gotten him lynched correctly and gotten him mislynched. My opinion is that scum isn't going to try a purposeful misdirect this early in the game.

Vote: EFHW

PPE: Fine, I guess you're just bussing then.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Uncleeurope on June 05, 2019, 03:35:34 am
All the votes on Swan are lazy and he has done nothing scummy.

I agree.

Vote: EFHW

I disagree. (At least based on that post you quoted)

PPE: Fine, I guess you're just bussing then.

I disagree.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: faust on June 05, 2019, 04:31:14 am
Vote Count 1.4

MiX (3): pingpongsam, Debatepro, jotheonah
pingpongsam (1): silverspawn
DatSwan (3): 2.71828....., Glooble, gkrieg13
jotheonah (1): pubby
gkrieg13 (2): A Drowned Kernel, Uncleeurope
EFHW (1): MiX

Not Voting (4): DatSwan, ashersky, mcmcsalot, EFHW

With 15 alive, it takes 8 to lynch. Day 1 ends on June 10, 2019, 10:00:00 am.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: 2.71828..... on June 05, 2019, 06:03:01 am
gkrieg's vote on me for the plan thing is super lazy.

Basically, all {ashersky,plan} posts are lazy and need to stop.  It was a meta thing like a year and a half ago.  It's personally exhausting and annoying at this point.

Yes, I still think about things and occasionally have plan-like ideas.  No, it is not an important thing anymore.

I mean, if anything, I definitely plan more as scum anyway.

I read this and then immediately went digging for this:

Also, for the record, hating on ashersky plans is just a hipster contrarianism thing to do. As Awaclus points out subconsciously, the efficacy of ashersky plans notwithstanding, the airing of, discussion of, and sometimes demolishing of ashersky plans is always pro-town. And generally they are pro-town regardless of my own alignment.

If you want to complain about ashersky plans, the correct way is to say it has zero bearing on my alignment so I deserve no town points for them. Unfortunately, I often do get scum points if I donít have one, so partly this is all your fault.

Separate to this, using waiting for the plan as an excuse to not otherwise engage is not an acceptable action.

Do Ash plans have zero bearing on your alignment, or do you do them more often as skum?

I hate phone posting. Lost my response.

Gist: both, there is a difference between ďhaving a planĒ and planning. Ask my scum partners from foreveróI plan. So should you, btw.

The plan that gkrieg talks about is the public one I was forced to produce every game for years when I was active and one of the ďbestĒ players here. It became a farce.

You want a ďplanĒ?  I can make one up. If you want my planning, check out our scum QT.  I already told you what I think you should do if you got PGO.

Plan being the aside point - I was more fixated on the contradictions between the two posts.

I am sure if I search hard enough I can find you contradict yourself in two different mafia games.

Vote: Datswan

This vote would be null if I voted for ash. Since I did not, that means this vote is because....hell if I know actually, but it makes it skummier.

Because accusing someone of being scummy and not voting then makes you...... Townie?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Uncleeurope on June 05, 2019, 07:03:17 am
Vote: e
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: jotheonah on June 05, 2019, 07:57:05 am
Anyone else having the "not secure" problem on f.ds, btw?  Like the https thing is not working.

Nah, if anything my insecurities are lessened here.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: A Drowned Kernel on June 05, 2019, 09:17:46 am
joth, do you still like your vote on mix?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Glooble on June 05, 2019, 09:28:28 am

I have to more to say later but for the record, that was scum!swan sincerely misunderstanding the setup

ADK was my skum buddy and the skum thread is open now for that game. Please feel free to go back and check that I was sadly just being a freekin idiot.

I did check the scum QT. Here's what I found. It's interesting.

Here is a quote from DatSwan, Night 0, in the scum QT for the game in question:

Quote
4) Odd Night Promoter - This role is the most important thing to exist in the game imo. We know they exist, but on Day 2 it is unlikely that Town will know if the promoter is Town or Skum, which works in our favor. Combine that with the fact that they have no idea who town or skum is and could be setting up a Town V Town situation... if we see fit we can def get rid of them before they get a shot #2.

And here is his first post in the game itself:

Hey everyone! Good to have another game on here

Summary of thoughts:

1) Promoter Claim - Since we don't know if there is a Promoter, combined with the chance that there is a Mafia Promoter instead of a Town Promoter who could claim and then even "prove it" if we were to force the target options on them... I am not seeing a super upside for a Promoter Claim. Additionally, the Town Promoter is potentially a very strong role if I understand it correctly... but its value only grows as the game goes on. They get to enhance reads, isolate based on claims, etc... and all of that increases the chances of finding good targets. So yeah... I think I am against the Promoter Claim because I think Skum would probably want to get rid of them.

2) Joth is def the Jester.

Bolding mine. I can't see how you can read these two quotes and think scum!DatSwan was sincerely confused about the setup.

Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mcmcsalot on June 05, 2019, 09:53:15 am
Anyone else having the "not secure" problem on f.ds, btw?  Like the https thing is not working.

Yes I am also having this problem. Iíll see if I can catch theory later today.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: jotheonah on June 05, 2019, 09:54:55 am
joth, do you still like your vote on mix?

Yes:

I cannot get into this game guys. Try as I might.

That's OK. It means I won't feel guilty about...

vote: jotheonah

Not expecting to change my vote from this.

Explain this and I will sheep.


This post is over-the-top scummy. MiX is saying "explain your completely unexplained vote and I'll join your wagon, [apparently regardless of how bad the explanation is]". Why even ask for the explanation? So you have a flimsy pretense for your scummy vote?

vote: MiX
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mcmcsalot on June 05, 2019, 09:58:53 am
I do think MiX is playing much more loosey goosey then I have seen him in the past but Iím not sure I care to lynch him now because I think I have a good ability to read him.

I actually think Iím going to join him vote: efhw

I was serious about the voting block. And am sad that it did not succeed in working together. I think her dismissal of it is interesting.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: MiX on June 05, 2019, 10:06:51 am
MiX is saying "explain your completely unexplained vote and I'll join your wagon, [apparently regardless of how bad the explanation is]"

It's sweet how you were scared that I would sheep him regardless of his explanation. I merely wanted an explanation.

This is when I would vote joth but I need to slow down my votes.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: jotheonah on June 05, 2019, 10:18:16 am
MiX is saying "explain your completely unexplained vote and I'll join your wagon, [apparently regardless of how bad the explanation is]"

It's sweet how you were scared that I would sheep him regardless of his explanation. I merely wanted an explanation.

This is when I would vote joth but I need to slow down my votes.

Really just taking you at your word, man. You could have said "Explain and maybe I'll sheep". Words mean things.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: MiX on June 05, 2019, 10:37:20 am
MiX is saying "explain your completely unexplained vote and I'll join your wagon, [apparently regardless of how bad the explanation is]"

It's sweet how you were scared that I would sheep him regardless of his explanation. I merely wanted an explanation.

This is when I would vote joth but I need to slow down my votes.

Really just taking you at your word, man. You could have said "Explain and maybe I'll sheep". Words mean things.

There's no reason for me to follow through my word, helps no one but maybe my townieness.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: A Drowned Kernel on June 05, 2019, 10:47:50 am
vote: joth
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mcmcsalot on June 05, 2019, 10:54:23 am
MiX is saying "explain your completely unexplained vote and I'll join your wagon, [apparently regardless of how bad the explanation is]"

It's sweet how you were scared that I would sheep him regardless of his explanation. I merely wanted an explanation.

This is when I would vote joth but I need to slow down my votes.

Really just taking you at your word, man. You could have said "Explain and maybe I'll sheep". Words mean things.

There's no reason for me to follow through my word, helps no one but maybe my townieness.

And you displaying a lack of towniness if you are town hurts town. Like a lot. I think people often overestimate their duty to find scum as town and underestimate their duty to convince others of their towniness.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: MiX on June 05, 2019, 11:00:34 am
MiX is saying "explain your completely unexplained vote and I'll join your wagon, [apparently regardless of how bad the explanation is]"

It's sweet how you were scared that I would sheep him regardless of his explanation. I merely wanted an explanation.

This is when I would vote joth but I need to slow down my votes.

Really just taking you at your word, man. You could have said "Explain and maybe I'll sheep". Words mean things.

There's no reason for me to follow through my word, helps no one but maybe my townieness.

And you displaying a lack of towniness if you are town hurts town. Like a lot. I think people often overestimate their duty to find scum as town and underestimate their duty to convince others of their towniness.

If you read my past town game you'll see me doing the opposite: almost disregarding scumhunting to look towny. Needless to say it wasn't very successful (although we did win...), regardless, I think there's a time to throw that away, at least at first: I really wanted to see how pubby reacted to it but I guess joth stole the reaction.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: EFHW on June 05, 2019, 11:08:43 am
I do think MiX is playing much more loosey goosey then I have seen him in the past but Iím not sure I care to lynch him now because I think I have a good ability to read him.

I actually think Iím going to join him vote: efhw

I was serious about the voting block. And am sad that it did not succeed in working together. I think her dismissal of it is interesting.
I didn't mean to dismiss your effort. I thought it was RVS. How did you imagine it working?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: silverspawn on June 05, 2019, 11:11:55 am
There's no reason for me to follow through my word
?
!
vote: MiX
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: jotheonah on June 05, 2019, 11:12:06 am
MiX is saying "explain your completely unexplained vote and I'll join your wagon, [apparently regardless of how bad the explanation is]"

It's sweet how you were scared that I would sheep him regardless of his explanation. I merely wanted an explanation.

This is when I would vote joth but I need to slow down my votes.

Really just taking you at your word, man. You could have said "Explain and maybe I'll sheep". Words mean things.

There's no reason for me to follow through my word, helps no one but maybe my townieness.

And you displaying a lack of towniness if you are town hurts town. Like a lot. I think people often overestimate their duty to find scum as town and underestimate their duty to convince others of their towniness.

If you read my past town game you'll see me doing the opposite: almost disregarding scumhunting to look towny. Needless to say it wasn't very successful (although we did win...), regardless, I think there's a time to throw that away, at least at first: I really wanted to see how pubby reacted to it but I guess joth stole the reaction.

Clearly that town is 'when you have a largeish wagon on you'  ::)
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: MiX on June 05, 2019, 11:17:18 am
Clearly that town is 'when you have a largeish wagon on you'  ::)

Indeed! How did you figure that out?  :P

There's no reason for me to follow through my word
?
!
vote: MiX

Beautiful.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: silverspawn on June 05, 2019, 11:18:23 am
MiX is saying "explain your completely unexplained vote and I'll join your wagon, [apparently regardless of how bad the explanation is]"

It's sweet how you were scared that I would sheep him regardless of his explanation. I merely wanted an explanation.

This is when I would vote joth but I need to slow down my votes.

Really just taking you at your word, man. You could have said "Explain and maybe I'll sheep". Words mean things.

There's no reason for me to follow through my word, helps no one but maybe my townieness.

And you displaying a lack of towniness if you are town hurts town. Like a lot. I think people often overestimate their duty to find scum as town and underestimate their duty to convince others of their towniness.

The argument is fallacious. It might indeed be more important to not get lynched if you're town than it is to scumhunt. But these are not two separate disciplines that you can independently invest time into, and the more time invest the better you do at them.

I think a much better way to look at it is this: the remaining player base is trying to figure out your alignment. If they're doing it right, then they will always consider your meta, i.e. there shouldn't be anyone who is generically less scummy and less likely to be lynched; everyone has the same probability of being scum, what we need is information that distinguishes your scum play from your normal play.

So if you're town and trying to play towny, well, that's the same thing you're doing as scum, so we don't have anything that distinguishes between the two. That doesn't mean it can't work in individual games, but it ought not to help you in expectation. On the other hand, if you're actually scumhunting, then that does distinguish between town!you and scum!you, because scum!you doesn't scumhunt, they're only pretending to scumhunt.

I.e.: if you focus on scumhunting, that ought to be the better strategy wrt not getting lynched.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: silverspawn on June 05, 2019, 11:18:49 am
Beautiful.

Just to clarify, you said that you have no reason to be honest as town and I policy voted you.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: MiX on June 05, 2019, 11:25:51 am
Beautiful.

Just to clarify, you said that you have no reason to be honest as town and I policy voted you.

Why do you think this helps town? Is this a policy vote or expressing a will to policy lynch? Correct me if they're the same.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: pingpongsam on June 05, 2019, 11:45:39 am
It's interesting how similar MiX plays to me. Here he is arguing the policing, man have I been there so many times. It's sobering to see how my behavior looks from a third person vantage point.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: jotheonah on June 05, 2019, 11:46:30 am
MiX said a thing, got heat for that thing, then immediately backed off of it (I wasn't really gonna do it) while still defending it (I was saying it to get info).

It's a reaction that makes me feel fine about my vote.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mcmcsalot on June 05, 2019, 11:53:55 am
Silver I actually disagree strongly. I donít mean to say your job to convince others of your towniness means you should try to look like town or try to play like town. I think those are very vague statements. I think you should do pro-town things, scum hunting is one of them but I donít think it is the only pro-town behavior one can exhibit. Secondly I think scum hunting can be done in a non pro-town way and that is what Iím saying is bad. Scum hunting purely for the sake of finding scum is often not as valuable as being an incredibly pro-town player.

In this scenario scum ďalso trying to look like townĒ would result in scum actually helping town not just also trying to scumhunt in a non scummy seeming way.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Debatepro on June 05, 2019, 11:56:29 am
What is the difference between sheeping and voting on an existing wagon without explanation?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mcmcsalot on June 05, 2019, 11:56:50 am
I do think MiX is playing much more loosey goosey then I have seen him in the past but Iím not sure I care to lynch him now because I think I have a good ability to read him.

I actually think Iím going to join him vote: efhw

I was serious about the voting block. And am sad that it did not succeed in working together. I think her dismissal of it is interesting.
I didn't mean to dismiss your effort. I thought it was RVS. How did you imagine it working?

Exactly as proposed, a block of players voting together for day 1. I had slight town reads of adk and pps right off the bat, there are enough scum in the game taking two people off my lynch list didnít seem too detrimental, and I thought itís continued use and seriousness would actually provide some pretty interesting interaction that could have been examined later on. Sadly it fell apart very quickly and I donít think there is another way to create it that isnít influenced by scum.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Debatepro on June 05, 2019, 11:57:43 am
Scum hunting purely for the sake of finding scum is often not as valuable as being an incredibly pro-town player.

Example?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Debatepro on June 05, 2019, 11:58:28 am
Secondly I think scum hunting can be done in a non pro-town way and that is what Iím saying is bad.

Example?

Wrong quote for question: Corrected.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mcmcsalot on June 05, 2019, 12:00:03 pm
What is the difference between sheeping and voting on an existing wagon without explanation?

I think wheeling has gotten vaguer over time to be somewhat similar but.

Sheeping is meant to be following up on a vote with a vote of your own purely because you think the first player who voted is town or because you want to vote for the exact same reasons the first person stated.

Voting without an explanation could be a tactful vote whilst hiding your reasons or a lazy vote that doesnít really have a reason.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mcmcsalot on June 05, 2019, 12:06:46 pm
Secondly I think scum hunting can be done in a non pro-town way and that is what Iím saying is bad.

Example?

Wrong quote for question: Corrected.

An over the top example would be as town fake claiming or lying about a result because you expect scum to react a certain way to the false result and thus will try to catch scum. This is negative town utility because lying as town almost always causes more confusion and trouble for town. It may have been successful for the player enacting the ruse to find scum but now the rest of town has reason not to trust that player and they may not be able to convince anyone of what they have discovered.

A more subtle example is voting ďpurely for reactions or pressureĒ. There are times that voting to pressure a player to response or react is good because it lets us know more about that player but because the explanation of ďit was just a pressure voteĒ is a reasonable town response scum could manipulate that and make what would otherwise be a scummy vote look towny after he fact by claiming it was just for reactions.

Overall there are ways of scumhunting that while valid and occasionally very effective but are not in and of themselves pro-town.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: silverspawn on June 05, 2019, 12:09:32 pm
Beautiful.

Just to clarify, you said that you have no reason to be honest as town and I policy voted you.

Why do you think this helps town? Is this a policy vote or expressing a will to policy lynch? Correct me if they're the same.

I'm not going to promise that I'll unvote you when you get close to being lynched; that would make the policy vote less effective. Maybe I will policy lynch you, maybe I won't. You definitely shouldn't intentionally lie-or-not-keep-promises as town.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: silverspawn on June 05, 2019, 12:10:37 pm
This post is over-the-top scummy. MiX is saying "explain your completely unexplained vote and I'll join your wagon, [apparently regardless of how bad the explanation is]". Why even ask for the explanation? So you have a flimsy pretense for your scummy vote?

vote: MiX

Consider yourself being in scum!Mix shoes. Does this really seem like a plausible thought process?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: MiX on June 05, 2019, 12:26:05 pm
Beautiful.

Just to clarify, you said that you have no reason to be honest as town and I policy voted you.

Why do you think this helps town? Is this a policy vote or expressing a will to policy lynch? Correct me if they're the same.

I'm not going to promise that I'll unvote you when you get close to being lynched; that would make the policy vote less effective. Maybe I will policy lynch you, maybe I won't. You definitely shouldn't intentionally lie-or-not-keep-promises as town.

So the key to not breaking promises is to not make them? Okay, I see.

@pubby, explain your vote and I'll probably sheep you.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: jotheonah on June 05, 2019, 12:41:04 pm
This post is over-the-top scummy. MiX is saying "explain your completely unexplained vote and I'll join your wagon, [apparently regardless of how bad the explanation is]". Why even ask for the explanation? So you have a flimsy pretense for your scummy vote?

vote: MiX

Consider yourself being in scum!Mix shoes. Does this really seem like a plausible thought process?

I did say it was over the top.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: faust on June 05, 2019, 02:15:37 pm
Vote Count 1.5

MiX (4): pingpongsam, Debatepro, jotheonah, silverspawn
DatSwan (3): 2.71828....., Glooble, gkrieg13
jotheonah (2): pubby, A Drowned Kernel
EFHW (2): MiX, mcmcsalot
2.71828..... (1): Uncleeurope

Not Voting (3): DatSwan, ashersky, EFHW

With 15 alive, it takes 8 to lynch. Day 1 ends on June 10, 2019, 10:00:00 am.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: gkrieg13 on June 05, 2019, 02:28:09 pm
All the votes on Swan are lazy and he has done nothing scummy.

Gkrieg, can you explain why Swan is scum?

unvote. DatSwan does this kind of thing a lot. It has gotten him lynched correctly and gotten him mislynched. My opinion is that scum isn't going to try a purposeful misdirect this early in the game.

Vote: EFHW

PPE: Fine, I guess you're just bussing then.

He gave something that made it look like ash had contradicted himself and then didn't really comment on it. Scum likes to mention something and then let everyone else comment on it and then come back and comment on it later after they see how people respond to it.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: gkrieg13 on June 05, 2019, 02:31:44 pm
Mcmcsalot is town
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Debatepro on June 05, 2019, 10:04:21 pm
@e, EFHW, Eddie - Any early reads?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Uncleeurope on June 05, 2019, 10:53:38 pm
Heh, you asked the ďeĒ names.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: A Drowned Kernel on June 06, 2019, 12:02:48 am
@e, EFHW, Eddie - Any early reads?

Is there actually a reason to ask those particular people?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: pubby on June 06, 2019, 04:56:58 am
@pubby, explain your vote and I'll probably sheep you.
I think joth is trying harder than anyone else to appear innocent. I don't believe him when he says he's not "into" this game - I mean, he had opinions about voting blocs and strategy and even tallied up the votes for everyone.

But if he is town, I won't feel terrible if he's lynched. Because again, I'd rather lynch the guy who's not feeling the game than a player more involved.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: MiX on June 06, 2019, 06:02:30 am
Vote: joth sounds good, I might have to metaread EFHW since it's the first time I think she's scum.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: jotheonah on June 06, 2019, 07:52:52 am
@pubby, explain your vote and I'll probably sheep you.
I think joth is trying harder than anyone else to appear innocent. I don't believe him when he says he's not "into" this game - I mean, he had opinions about voting blocs and strategy and even tallied up the votes for everyone.

But if he is town, I won't feel terrible if he's lynched. Because again, I'd rather lynch the guy who's not feeling the game than a player more involved.

This game is the most important thing in the world to me.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Debatepro on June 06, 2019, 09:09:49 am
@e, EFHW, Eddie - Any early reads?

Is there actually a reason to ask those particular people?

- I iso'd everyone
- I have played with each of them more than once (fds/lynchpool)
- I have been partners with them (lynchpool Less Pressure #2 (https://beta.lynchpool.com/archive/less-pressure-2/) & #5 (https://beta.lynchpool.com/archive/less-pressure-5/))
- I wanted to see what they had to say
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: MiX on June 06, 2019, 09:11:59 am
@e, EFHW, Eddie - Any early reads?

Is there actually a reason to ask those particular people?

- I iso'd everyone
- I have played with each of them more than once (fds/lynchpool)
- I have been partners with them (lynchpool Less Pressure #2 (https://beta.lynchpool.com/archive/less-pressure-2/) & #5 (https://beta.lynchpool.com/archive/less-pressure-5/))
- I wanted to see what they had to say

What is your early read?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mcmcsalot on June 06, 2019, 09:18:59 am
This game feels like it has stalled. Someone do something scummy.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Debatepro on June 06, 2019, 12:45:40 pm
I am about to be VLA for at least a week. My schedule will be more closely aligned to those playing in western Europe. I will try to check in at least once a day. The good news is, some of that time will be in the night so I won't miss anything.

Exceedingly early feelings for the record, perhaps it helps team "destroy the earth", I am fond of the impact from a large object hurling through space variety.

Cheers!





Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: pingpongsam on June 06, 2019, 12:52:26 pm
I'm ridiculously busy. Next week I am going to a 3 day conference in Boston for work so I expect I'll probably be pretty busy then as well. I am definitely following along but am not finding time for rereads and not getting the feeling right now any are actually warranted. I'm no fan of D1 for lots of reasons. Once there is some real activity to ponder over I can assure you I will be more active.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: jotheonah on June 06, 2019, 12:53:37 pm
I'm ridiculously busy. Next week I am going to a 3 day conference in Boston for work so I expect I'll probably be pretty busy then as well. I am definitely following along but am not finding time for rereads and not getting the feeling right now any are actually warranted. I'm no fan of D1 for lots of reasons. Once there is some real activity to ponder over I can assure you I will be more active.

I live in Boston! Lmk in PM if you want to grab a drink and not talk about this game. :P
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: EFHW on June 06, 2019, 04:36:17 pm
I'm thinking vote: Glooble. He seemed overly enthusiastic about my DatSwan case and was maybe looking for something to talk about in analyzing the last game instead of this one.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: ashersky on June 06, 2019, 09:33:52 pm
Also been crazy busy. Sorry for that.

Typical race to a rushed D1 lynch in the cards, I think.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: A Drowned Kernel on June 06, 2019, 10:02:35 pm
Also been crazy busy. Sorry for that.

Typical race to a rushed D1 lynch in the cards, I think.

We do have four more days. I will try to do a reread tomorrow and sort some people.

Care to put your vote anywhere?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: silverspawn on June 07, 2019, 03:57:39 am
Reread the game.

So ash said something that appears like a contradiction and DatSwan pulled out some quotes pointing this out. Then he got heat for it. I think everyone who pointed out that this doesn't make DS scummy deserves some town points. That's at least EFHW and ash.

I think pubby's appearance so far is not good. Here is the full ISO for you:


vote: pingpongsam

 8)

I cannot get into this game guys. Try as I might.

That's OK. It means I won't feel guilty about...

vote: jotheonah

Not expecting to change my vote from this.

@pubby, explain your vote and I'll probably sheep you.
I think joth is trying harder than anyone else to appear innocent. I don't believe him when he says he's not "into" this game - I mean, he had opinions about voting blocs and strategy and even tallied up the votes for everyone.

But if he is town, I won't feel terrible if he's lynched. Because again, I'd rather lynch the guy who's not feeling the game than a player more involved.

3 posts, and all are scummy.

I'm also wary of debatepro. In my first game with them Ė well, I was scum and knew they were town, so it's possible I deluded myself, but I nonetheless Ė I got super strong town vibes from them pretty much the entire game. This time I don't. Is it just because they're not as new anymore? Very possible.

This is also interesting:

Can a friendly town person please give me a high-level explanation of what the traitor is and how it works? I've never played with one and read the mafia wiki on it, but I'm still unsure how it works in or could work in this game.

I did stuff like that as scum when I was new. Actually did it in my first scum game. But the fact that they say they've read on it in the wiki is the kind of detail that makes it more likely to be true.

@Mcmc: you've never answered me about how seriously you took your attempt to create the bloc. Please respond.


This post is over-the-top scummy. MiX is saying "explain your completely unexplained vote and I'll join your wagon, [apparently regardless of how bad the explanation is]". Why even ask for the explanation? So you have a flimsy pretense for your scummy vote?

vote: MiX

Consider yourself being in scum!Mix shoes. Does this really seem like a plausible thought process?

I did say it was over the top.

But you voted anyway. Why?

Here's where I'm at right now.

Town: ADK, Gloooble, Eddie, joth
Scum: pubby

vote: pubby
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: jotheonah on June 07, 2019, 08:02:20 am
Holy lurker lynch Batman thatís a small number of posts!

Iíll give vote: pubby a try
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on June 07, 2019, 08:36:22 am
Vote Count 1.6

MiX (2): pingpongsam, Debatepro,
DatSwan (3): 2.71828....., Glooble, gkrieg13
jotheonah (3): pubby, A Drowned Kernel, MiX
EFHW (1): mcmcsalot
2.71828..... (1): Uncleeurope
Glooble (1): EFHW
pubby (2): silverspawn, jotheonah

Not Voting (2): DatSwan, ashersky

With 15 alive, it takes 8 to lynch. Day 1 ends on June 10, 2019, 10:00:00 am.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on June 07, 2019, 08:37:13 am
Geez, I mean 1.6, sorry faust!
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: silverspawn on June 07, 2019, 08:37:37 am
It's not just that they're few posts though, they're also scummy posts. Though admittedly I don't know much about how pubby usually sounds.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Debatepro on June 07, 2019, 09:22:33 am
Reread the game.

So ash said something that appears like a contradiction and DatSwan pulled out some quotes pointing this out. Then he got heat for it. I think everyone who pointed out that this doesn't make DS scummy deserves some town points. That's at least EFHW and ash.


Do the people giving ds heat get scum points?



I'm also wary of debatepro. In my first game with them Ė well, I was scum and knew they were town, so it's possible I deluded myself, but I nonetheless Ė I got super strong town vibes from them pretty much the entire game. This time I don't. Is it just because they're not as new anymore? Very possible.

This is also interesting:

Can a friendly town person please give me a high-level explanation of what the traitor is and how it works? I've never played with one and read the mafia wiki on it, but I'm still unsure how it works in or could work in this game.

I did stuff like that as scum when I was new. Actually did it in my first scum game. But the fact that they say they've read on it in the wiki is the kind of detail that makes it more likely to be true.

The wiki literally says "A Traitor is a member of the Mafia who is separate from the main contingent of the faction. Because it is not a member of the main contingent, it is not capable of talking to the other Mafiosi and cannot perform the factional kill. Beyond this simple definition, the implementation of Traitor varies wildly between games."


Here's where I'm at right now.

Town: ADK, Gloooble, Eddie, joth
Scum: pubby

vote: pubby

The people you gave town points for DS didn't get mentioned here. Then you say 4 people are town that basically aren't mentioned in your post. Care to share why you feel ADK, Glooble, Eddie, and Joth are town?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Glooble on June 07, 2019, 09:37:31 am


Sorry to beat a dead horse, but I'd really like DatSwan and ADK to respond to this. I know I'm discussing a previous game, and I'd like to move away from that, but I can't when it looks to me like statements made in this game, about that game, by ADK and DatSwan, are lies. Lying is always scummy, whether its about a current game or an older one. The fact that neither one has acknowledged my post makes them both seem scummier to me.

DatSwan and ADK: Why did you say DatSwan was genuinely confused about the setup last game, when your scum QT clearly shows that he understood the setup?


Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: MiX on June 07, 2019, 09:44:13 am


Sorry to beat a dead horse, but I'd really like DatSwan and ADK to respond to this. I know I'm discussing a previous game, and I'd like to move away from that, but I can't when it looks to me like statements made in this game, about that game, by ADK and DatSwan, are lies. Lying is always scummy, whether its about a current game or an older one. The fact that neither one has acknowledged my post makes them both seem scummier to me.

DatSwan and ADK: Why did you say DatSwan was genuinely confused about the setup last game, when your scum QT clearly shows that he understood the setup?




In what way does this question help you read them this game?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Glooble on June 07, 2019, 09:50:28 am


Sorry to beat a dead horse, but I'd really like DatSwan and ADK to respond to this. I know I'm discussing a previous game, and I'd like to move away from that, but I can't when it looks to me like statements made in this game, about that game, by ADK and DatSwan, are lies. Lying is always scummy, whether its about a current game or an older one. The fact that neither one has acknowledged my post makes them both seem scummier to me.

DatSwan and ADK: Why did you say DatSwan was genuinely confused about the setup last game, when your scum QT clearly shows that he understood the setup?




In what way does this question help you read them this game?

I don't think town has reason to lie about anything.

Trouble is, I'm also struggling to come up with a reason for scum to lie about something so irrelevant.

But I also can't reconcile their statements with the evidence.

Also, the mere fact that ADK has posted since I made this post two days ago but hasn't acknowledged it is scummy to me in its own way. (DatSwan gets a pass, I guess, since he hasn't posted since, so its conceivable he might not have seen it.) I will often ignore votes on me if I think they're based on nothing or they're based on something I've already defended myself on, but not responding to an accusation of contradiction/lying at all is suspect.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: MiX on June 07, 2019, 09:57:19 am
Do you believe ADK/Swan will answer in a way that will make you townread them more? What about in a way that will make you scumread them more (not intentionally of course)?

Your case feels like (correct me if I'm wrong) Swan and ADK were lying and you caught them in their lie, thus they're both scum. In this case, I can't see how an answer would persuade you, if this is the case, then they have already scumslipped.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: MiX on June 07, 2019, 09:58:34 am
In this case, I can't see how an answer would persuade you, if this is the case, then they have already scumslipped.

This is so awfully worded that I just have to correct it: "If this is the case you're pushing, then an answer can't change anything, because they have already scumslipped."
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: silverspawn on June 07, 2019, 10:15:30 am
Reread the game.

So ash said something that appears like a contradiction and DatSwan pulled out some quotes pointing this out. Then he got heat for it. I think everyone who pointed out that this doesn't make DS scummy deserves some town points. That's at least EFHW and ash.


Do the people giving ds heat get scum points?

No. People who sheeped the case would be more likely to get scum points, but that didn't really happen.

The people you gave town points for DS didn't get mentioned here. Then you say 4 people are town that basically aren't mentioned in your post. Care to share why you feel ADK, Glooble, Eddie, and Joth are town?

It's almost all "this sounds authentic" and "this feels like it has a town motivation behind it". Trying to explain these kinds of town reads is a pain. The DS thing isn't a big deal, it's just something.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Glooble on June 07, 2019, 10:16:16 am
In this case, I can't see how an answer would persuade you, if this is the case, then they have already scumslipped.

This is so awfully worded that I just have to correct it: "If this is the case you're pushing, then an answer can't change anything, because they have already scumslipped."


There are several answers I would consider satisfactory. Obviously if I told you what these answers are, they would be able to just parrot them back to me, so I won't.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: A Drowned Kernel on June 07, 2019, 10:51:10 am


Sorry to beat a dead horse, but I'd really like DatSwan and ADK to respond to this. I know I'm discussing a previous game, and I'd like to move away from that, but I can't when it looks to me like statements made in this game, about that game, by ADK and DatSwan, are lies. Lying is always scummy, whether its about a current game or an older one. The fact that neither one has acknowledged my post makes them both seem scummier to me.

DatSwan and ADK: Why did you say DatSwan was genuinely confused about the setup last game, when your scum QT clearly shows that he understood the setup?

Honestly I may have been misremembering things. I remember at the time being frustrated because I thought that swan's setup posts were genuinely confused about things and he was attracting unnecessary attention because of it. There certainly wasn't any discussion of "I'm going to try and fake setup confusion so that people think I'm town". You're correct that the scum qt and swan's post seem to contradict each other; either swan really was faking or, as I think is possible, he just forgot between N0 and that post.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Glooble on June 07, 2019, 10:56:35 am


Sorry to beat a dead horse, but I'd really like DatSwan and ADK to respond to this. I know I'm discussing a previous game, and I'd like to move away from that, but I can't when it looks to me like statements made in this game, about that game, by ADK and DatSwan, are lies. Lying is always scummy, whether its about a current game or an older one. The fact that neither one has acknowledged my post makes them both seem scummier to me.

DatSwan and ADK: Why did you say DatSwan was genuinely confused about the setup last game, when your scum QT clearly shows that he understood the setup?

Honestly I may have been misremembering things. I remember at the time being frustrated because I thought that swan's setup posts were genuinely confused about things and he was attracting unnecessary attention because of it. There certainly wasn't any discussion of "I'm going to try and fake setup confusion so that people think I'm town". You're correct that the scum qt and swan's post seem to contradict each other; either swan really was faking or, as I think is possible, he just forgot between N0 and that post.

Thanks.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Glooble on June 07, 2019, 11:01:33 am
Pubby, can you please explain what you meant when you said you "weren't likely to change your vote" from joth? It seems to me like it was ludicrously early to make such a statement.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: 2.71828..... on June 07, 2019, 11:49:02 am
In-laws just arrived + work = neglect of this game. Will try to spend some time later this evening looking back over things.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mcmcsalot on June 07, 2019, 12:45:16 pm
I could go for a vote: pubby
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: silverspawn on June 07, 2019, 12:56:59 pm
Please answer my question.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: MiX on June 07, 2019, 01:03:43 pm
Please answer my question.

I do think MiX is playing much more loosey goosey then I have seen him in the past but Iím not sure I care to lynch him now because I think I have a good ability to read him.

I actually think Iím going to join him vote: efhw

I was serious about the voting block. And am sad that it did not succeed in working together. I think her dismissal of it is interesting.
I didn't mean to dismiss your effort. I thought it was RVS. How did you imagine it working?

Exactly as proposed, a block of players voting together for day 1. I had slight town reads of adk and pps right off the bat, there are enough scum in the game taking two people off my lynch list didnít seem too detrimental, and I thought itís continued use and seriousness would actually provide some pretty interesting interaction that could have been examined later on. Sadly it fell apart very quickly and I donít think there is another way to create it that isnít influenced by scum.

You saw this part, right?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: jotheonah on June 07, 2019, 02:09:10 pm
I'm actually back to vote: MiX

pubby might be scum, but they (he? not actually sure of your pronouns, pubby) have bland compromise Day 1 mislynch written all over them.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: MiX on June 07, 2019, 02:12:09 pm
I'm actually back to vote: MiX

pubby might be scum, but they (he? not actually sure of your pronouns, pubby) have bland compromise Day 1 mislynch written all over them.

This is the most uninspired vote I've seen yet, unless you have a case on me? This feels...different...from the votes I usually recieve, so I would like to know why it existed.

Agreed that you're a much better lynch, they don't act like it but if you think about it pubby's new in f.ds, and given how easy it was to mislynch him last game I would rather leave him alive for now.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: silverspawn on June 07, 2019, 02:15:07 pm
Please answer my question.

I do think MiX is playing much more loosey goosey then I have seen him in the past but Iím not sure I care to lynch him now because I think I have a good ability to read him.

I actually think Iím going to join him vote: efhw

I was serious about the voting block. And am sad that it did not succeed in working together. I think her dismissal of it is interesting.
I didn't mean to dismiss your effort. I thought it was RVS. How did you imagine it working?

Exactly as proposed, a block of players voting together for day 1. I had slight town reads of adk and pps right off the bat, there are enough scum in the game taking two people off my lynch list didnít seem too detrimental, and I thought itís continued use and seriousness would actually provide some pretty interesting interaction that could have been examined later on. Sadly it fell apart very quickly and I donít think there is another way to create it that isnít influenced by scum.

You saw this part, right?

Yes. It's not quite an answer. I want to know what mcmc would have done if people had gone along.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Uncleeurope on June 07, 2019, 02:49:04 pm
I'm actually back to vote: MiX

pubby might be scum, but they (he? not actually sure of your pronouns, pubby) have bland compromise Day 1 mislynch written all over them.

Trying to decide if this is a partner tell or not.

I will get back to you guys.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Uncleeurope on June 07, 2019, 02:49:39 pm
Oh, and by the way, anyone else interested in killin' off our boy, e?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: jotheonah on June 07, 2019, 02:50:13 pm
I'm actually back to vote: MiX

pubby might be scum, but they (he? not actually sure of your pronouns, pubby) have bland compromise Day 1 mislynch written all over them.

This is the most uninspired vote I've seen yet, unless you have a case on me? This feels...different...from the votes I usually recieve, so I would like to know why it existed.

Agreed that you're a much better lynch, they don't act like it but if you think about it pubby's new in f.ds, and given how easy it was to mislynch him last game I would rather leave him alive for now.

It's the same case I had before I switched to pubby. I barely remember what it was but I remember it was solid. Let me reread.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: A Drowned Kernel on June 07, 2019, 02:50:56 pm
On a reread:

silver is very towny
I think glooble pushing the datswan thing is towny (I don't know if he's right or not)
mix is towny

I still don't like PPS's reaction to people voting for him
e is coming off as scummy to me but I think I practically always scumread e
pubby comes off as scummy but he was such an easy mislynch last game that I kind of don't want to go there
gkrieg is a scumlord

Let me check if I'm still voting there
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: jotheonah on June 07, 2019, 02:51:01 pm
Oh yeah, it was the way you reacted to the voting bloc idea. You seemed desperate to be included, which I concluded was most likely to come from jittery scum.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: A Drowned Kernel on June 07, 2019, 02:51:47 pm
I guess I'm voting for joth? Not the worst place to have my vote
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: A Drowned Kernel on June 07, 2019, 02:53:25 pm
Game unrelated: debatepro did you use to do high school/college policy debate?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: jotheonah on June 07, 2019, 02:53:41 pm
I guess I'm voting for joth? Not the worst place to have my vote

Pretty solid default vote apparently. But can I interest you in MiXing it up a little?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: A Drowned Kernel on June 07, 2019, 03:02:21 pm
I guess I'm voting for joth? Not the worst place to have my vote

Pretty solid default vote apparently. But can I interest you in MiXing it up a little?

Nope!
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: MiX on June 07, 2019, 03:03:31 pm
Oh yeah, it was the way you reacted to the voting bloc idea. You seemed desperate to be included, which I concluded was most likely to come from jittery scum.

Ah, my bad, I forgot you had this. Okay you're not conf!scum then.

Game unrelated: debatepro did you use to do high school/college policy debate?

Surely he has already answered this question with a "yes" elsewhere, right? Not that I remember it, just seems like an obvious thing to ask.

I guess I'm voting for joth? Not the worst place to have my vote

Pretty solid default vote apparently. But can I interest you in MiXing it up a little?

Are we gonna end up scumreading each other D1 again?

Oh, and by the way, anyone else interested in killin' off our boy, e?

I'm fine with this. Joth seems scummier, which is probably a towntell for him, still want him gone more than anyone else.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: jotheonah on June 07, 2019, 05:41:38 pm
[quite]Are we gonna end up scumreading each other D1 again?[/quote]

I mean, Iím not like super-super sure youíre scum. Youíre just the best bet for a D1 lynch as of now as far as I know. So we donít have to make a big 1v1 thing about it. You want me to vote elsewhere? Make a better case. :)
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Uncleeurope on June 08, 2019, 12:20:54 am
Any other thoughts on e?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Debatepro on June 08, 2019, 01:42:05 am
Game unrelated: debatepro did you use to do high school/college policy debate?

Both. Judging both levels, some coaching, side hustles. But Iíve been in tech and cybersecurity for a couple decades.  WCD also debated and coached in college, itís how we met.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Debatepro on June 08, 2019, 02:05:23 am
Any other thoughts on e?

Not sure if Iím missing it, but you havenít said why you are voting for him. Care to share or do you have some other plan in the works?

I did ask if both you all would share some thoughts and reads about the game.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: DatSwan on June 08, 2019, 02:14:19 am
I am not dead - camping until Sunday with way less access then i expected.

Glooble i think you should probably read more thoroughly before making accusations.

Iíll get a vote down tomorrow when i have a connection again after i catch up.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Uncleeurope on June 08, 2019, 02:16:55 am
Any other thoughts on e?

Not sure if Iím missing it, but you havenít said why you are voting for him. Care to share or do you have some other plan in the works?

I did ask if both you all would share some thoughts and reads about the game.

Seems to fit.

Posts weird.

Dunno.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Debatepro on June 08, 2019, 02:17:28 am

Re: Glooble pushing DS

ADK gives town points 324 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=19685.msg803017#msg803017)
EFHW gives scum points 295 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=19685.msg802941#msg802941)

Others have any takes on this issue? Is this even a useful data point?

(phone)
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: faust on June 08, 2019, 03:39:57 am
Vote Count 1.7

MiX (3): pingpongsam, Debatepro, jotheonah
DatSwan (3): 2.71828....., Glooble, gkrieg13
jotheonah (3): pubby, A Drowned Kernel, MiX
2.71828..... (1): Uncleeurope
Glooble (1): EFHW
pubby (2): silverspawn, mcmcsalot

Not Voting (2): DatSwan, ashersky

With 15 alive, it takes 8 to lynch. Day 1 ends on June 10, 2019, 10:00:00 am.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: MiX on June 08, 2019, 04:57:44 am
Any other thoughts on e?

Not sure if Iím missing it, but you havenít said why you are voting for him. Care to share or do you have some other plan in the works?

I did ask if both you all would share some thoughts and reads about the game.

Seems to fit.

Posts weird.

Dunno.

Anything else? Okay: what about joth?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: MiX on June 08, 2019, 05:17:28 am
Debatepro's probably scum. Let's analyze one of their posts, mainly the one with actual reads and not just questions: (I cut some of the flavour in it to get to the read list)

  • I want to read more from e, efhw, and eddie because I feel like I know them better than other players. No ideas on PPS and pubby, because they are not saying much, and I don't know them very well. Asher hasn't said much, I did agree with his take on DS's plan v planning, and they were helpful. I think at least one scum tends to be inactive in d1. But I have not played many games and thus a small sample size.
  • mcmc seems townie but being helpful is part of his meta. I may always equate being nice and helpful as a town trait. Iíll have to factor that into my calculation if I can.
  • This DS issue with plan vs. planning seemed contrived and shit, wouldn't be surprised if there was scum on and intentionally avoiding that discussion. Not a plus or minus for DS, mostly others. This doesn't exonerate DS, just thought it was crap.
  • MiX always seems scummy, even when he is town, I think that is well known. He does seem to be playing a little bit more deliberately, but I've heard he is doing this more and more. Wouldn't surprise me if scum team avoided voting for town!mix, hoping he will be lynched without their help.
  • My 'spidey senses' have occasionally been heightened by ADK, gkreig, glooble, & Joth. When i reread, I can convince myself that that they could be town.
  • SS - Not good at reading him, last time I played he was scum and had a town read on me. Probably won scum the game because I was too stubborn to see it for what it was. I'll probably read them more skeptically in this game.

Now let's process it:

e - He feels like he can read him better. No reads
Eddie - He feels like he can read him better. No reads
EFHW -He feels like he can read her better. No reads
pps - Doesn't know him, not saying much. Null, I presume
pubby - Doesn't know him, not saying much. Null, I presume
ash - Hasn't said much, agrees with him regarding Swan's plan vs planning thing (IIRC ash said it came more from town?). No reads (although he said he was helpful and then mentions that's a town trait)

Then a comment that "one scum tends to be inactive D1", I suppose throwing shade on everyone he had mentioned so far. Then he continues:

mcmc - Townie but he always sees helpful as town.
Swan - Plan vs planning thing doesn't change his read on Swan, so I presume it's null?
MiX - He's scummy when town, something about how I play, ends with "scum team doesn't want to vote for him, hoping he's lynched without their help". No real read here, unless that was supposed to say null.
ADK, gkrieg, Glooble and joth - Scummy, I presume. All lumped together and he even says he's not that sure.
silverspawn - Hard to read, then some talk about his previous game. No reads

Overall there's 1-2 town reads, 4 "scum" reads and the rest are a bunch of nully nulls. Meh, this probably fits town!Debatepro, but it wouldn't fit me if I didn't scumread him to hell and back.

Regardless, Debatepro, if you had to vote for someone right now, who would it be?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Uncleeurope on June 08, 2019, 08:14:18 am
I think debate is fine.

At least for now.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Uncleeurope on June 08, 2019, 08:15:02 am
Any other thoughts on e?

Not sure if Iím missing it, but you havenít said why you are voting for him. Care to share or do you have some other plan in the works?

I did ask if both you all would share some thoughts and reads about the game.

Seems to fit.

Posts weird.

Dunno.

Anything else? Okay: what about joth?

Joth is... Joth...

Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: MiX on June 08, 2019, 08:36:39 am
I can see Eddie doesn't feel like being eloquent today. But seriously what do you think of joth?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: EFHW on June 08, 2019, 09:02:54 am
I can see Eddie doesn't feel like being eloquent today. But seriously what do you think of joth?

Eddie is giving a performance.  Does he decide to do that as town or scum?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: ashersky on June 08, 2019, 09:21:08 am
Sorry I was quiet, family emergency (everyone is okay).  Iíll try to contribute tomorrow (Sunday).
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: MiX on June 08, 2019, 10:00:50 am
I can see Eddie doesn't feel like being eloquent today. But seriously what do you think of joth?

Eddie is giving a performance.  Does he decide to do that as town or scum?

Town.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Glooble on June 08, 2019, 10:16:49 am
MiX, what exactly do you find scummy about joth? He's reading null-to-towny for me this game.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Glooble on June 08, 2019, 10:18:50 am
Also, on a related note, if you think debatepro is probably scum why aren't you voting there?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Debatepro on June 08, 2019, 11:06:49 am
Debatepro's probably scum. Let's analyze one of their posts, mainly the one with actual reads and not just questions: (I cut some of the flavour in it to get to the read list)
...
Overall there's 1-2 town reads, 4 "scum" reads and the rest are a bunch of nully nulls. Meh, this probably fits town!Debatepro, but it wouldn't fit me if I didn't scumread him to hell and back.

Are you just thinking out loud? You can work though all of theses issues, craft a post, and then at the end, delete it instead of posting if it is not a value add. Maybe I unable to decipher the last sentence.

Regardless, Debatepro, if you had to vote for someone right now, who would it be?

My vote is right where it belongs.



Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: MiX on June 08, 2019, 11:52:31 am
MiX, what exactly do you find scummy about joth? He's reading null-to-towny for me this game.

He's playing up his town meta too much, pubby's case is alright and I don't really understand his case on me.

Also, on a related note, if you think debatepro is probably scum why aren't you voting there?

Not that sure. I would sooner vote for e in any case.

Debatepro's probably scum. Let's analyze one of their posts, mainly the one with actual reads and not just questions: (I cut some of the flavour in it to get to the read list)
...
Overall there's 1-2 town reads, 4 "scum" reads and the rest are a bunch of nully nulls. Meh, this probably fits town!Debatepro, but it wouldn't fit me if I didn't scumread him to hell and back.

Are you just thinking out loud? You can work though all of theses issues, craft a post, and then at the end, delete it instead of posting if it is not a value add. Maybe I unable to decipher the last sentence.

I didn't know it was that useless...

Regardless, Debatepro, if you had to vote for someone right now, who would it be?

My vote is right where it belongs.

Do you have a reason for this vote?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: gkrieg13 on June 08, 2019, 11:59:35 am
Sorry been busy with work and house improvements. Hopefully will get to this soon.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: silverspawn on June 08, 2019, 12:21:49 pm
The only reason I don't want to lynch debatepro is the wiki thing. It seems unlikely for scum!debatepro to get the explanation of what a traitor is from his buddies and then look at the wiki anyway just so that he can better fabricate this lie. It seems similarly unlikely for him to make up having looked at the wiki.

He could be the traitor, that would take care of the problem, or he could have not asked his scum buddies. Mh.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Debatepro on June 08, 2019, 05:01:07 pm
Do you have a reason for this vote? [db8 voting for MiX]

It is a data point. The value of voting for someone else hasnít risen above the value gained by voting for you. It is not always useful to share the full extent of the reasons, although if you read close enough, you might be able to pick it out.

When I donít think it is as valuable, Iíll change my vote.

If your town, get to work and stop wasting time with a townie.  ;)



Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: MiX on June 08, 2019, 05:05:53 pm
If your town, get to work and stop wasting time with a townie.  ;)

See, this right here would tell me you're town, if you didn't end it with a wink. I'll still do the same thing as last time we were all together and listen to silver saying you're town, after all he was right before, I guess.

I might make a case on joth or e (although e doesn't really have a lot of posts so not much can be said), if I find nothing then I'll research EFHW more. There's like two others I would vote for, but otherwise this is my lynch pool.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: gkrieg13 on June 08, 2019, 05:31:55 pm
MiX is saying "explain your completely unexplained vote and I'll join your wagon, [apparently regardless of how bad the explanation is]"

It's sweet how you were scared that I would sheep him regardless of his explanation. I merely wanted an explanation.

This is when I would vote joth but I need to slow down my votes.

Really just taking you at your word, man. You could have said "Explain and maybe I'll sheep". Words mean things.

There's no reason for me to follow through my word, helps no one but maybe my townieness.

And you displaying a lack of towniness if you are town hurts town. Like a lot. I think people often overestimate their duty to find scum as town and underestimate their duty to convince others of their towniness.

The argument is fallacious. It might indeed be more important to not get lynched if you're town than it is to scumhunt. But these are not two separate disciplines that you can independently invest time into, and the more time invest the better you do at them.

I think a much better way to look at it is this: the remaining player base is trying to figure out your alignment. If they're doing it right, then they will always consider your meta, i.e. there shouldn't be anyone who is generically less scummy and less likely to be lynched; everyone has the same probability of being scum, what we need is information that distinguishes your scum play from your normal play.

So if you're town and trying to play towny, well, that's the same thing you're doing as scum, so we don't have anything that distinguishes between the two. That doesn't mean it can't work in individual games, but it ought not to help you in expectation. On the other hand, if you're actually scumhunting, then that does distinguish between town!you and scum!you, because scum!you doesn't scumhunt, they're only pretending to scumhunt.

I.e.: if you focus on scumhunting, that ought to be the better strategy wrt not getting lynched.

I agree with this to a point. I think I'm more likely to be mislynched when I am actively scum hunting just from interacting with people a lot. People like to lynch people that vote around and unvote from scum, which happens more when you are scum hunting.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: gkrieg13 on June 08, 2019, 05:32:30 pm
It's interesting how similar MiX plays to me. Here he is arguing the policing, man have I been there so many times. It's sobering to see how my behavior looks from a third person vantage point.

Do you feel stifled by him? You don't seem as PPSy as normal.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: gkrieg13 on June 08, 2019, 05:33:44 pm
Silver and mcmcsalot talking about scum hunting sounds townie from both of them.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: gkrieg13 on June 08, 2019, 05:36:11 pm
I agree with almost everything silver says, including his analysis of Debatepro asking about traitor.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: gkrieg13 on June 08, 2019, 05:40:24 pm
Also townreading MiX. Seems to genuinely be scum hunting.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: silverspawn on June 08, 2019, 06:27:26 pm
Debatepro, have you been scum before?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: A Drowned Kernel on June 08, 2019, 07:47:12 pm
Would referencing games that have happened on a site that isn't public be against the rules?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: pingpongsam on June 08, 2019, 08:27:22 pm
It's interesting how similar MiX plays to me. Here he is arguing the policing, man have I been there so many times. It's sobering to see how my behavior looks from a third person vantage point.

Do you feel stifled by him? You don't seem as PPSy as normal.

Stifled would be a strong term to use. My typical play style has merit but only in limited quantities. Otherwise I am outrageously busy so thatís a good bit of it too.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: EFHW on June 08, 2019, 11:32:30 pm
ADK and MiX,  are you still scumreading gkrieg?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: A Drowned Kernel on June 09, 2019, 12:19:05 am
ADK and MiX,  are you still scumreading gkrieg?

Yes
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Debatepro on June 09, 2019, 02:55:26 am
Debatepro, have you been scum before?


@e, EFHW, Eddie - Any early reads?

Is there actually a reason to ask those particular people?

- I iso'd everyone
- I have played with each of them more than once (fds/lynchpool)
- I have been partners with them (lynchpool Less Pressure #2 (https://beta.lynchpool.com/archive/less-pressure-2/) & #5 (https://beta.lynchpool.com/archive/less-pressure-5/))
- I wanted to see what they had to say

My turn:

This started as a closer examination of SS, EFHW, and MCMC planning discussion to see if I can glean any information from it.

Quote
The Dialogs: (Read this section bottom up)

SS (320 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=19685.msg803013#msg803013)) - Not quite answer, want to know what would they have done if people went along?

MiX (317 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=19685.msg803008#msg803008)) - they did in 271.

SS (315 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=19685.msg803006#msg803006)) - 2 days later - Please answer my ?

SS (276 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=19685.msg802859#msg802859)) 1009am - dialog mix policy vote, donít lie or not keep promises as Town.

MCMC (275 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=19685.msg802858#msg802858)) 1006am - answers db8ís question about how scum hunting can be non-protown

MCMC (271 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=19685.msg802854#msg802854)) 956am - had some town reads, block could have led to interesting interactions for future examination

SS (261 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=19685.msg802844#msg802844)) 911am - Vote MiX for ďthere is no reason for me to follow through with my wordĒ

EFHW (260 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=19685.msg802843#msg802843)) 908am - How did you imagine the plan working?

MCMC (258 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=19685.msg802841#msg802841)) 854am - Questions MiX for ďthere is no reason for me to follow through with my wordĒ

MCMC (253 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=19685.msg802832#msg802832)) 758am - Vote: EFHW & Serious

SS (98 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=19685.msg802627#msg802627)) - how serious was your block?

@SS:
Did you miss both MCMCís answers to your question? You both have a cluster of posts about different topics within about 2.5 hours of each other.

Did you mean to appropriate EFHWís followup question as your own or did I miss your question in another post?

Why is this important and what more could they say? MCMC functionally said: "had some town reads, block could have led to interesting interactions for future examination"
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: silverspawn on June 09, 2019, 03:55:27 am
What's with people being so difficult about answering questions in this game? Have you been scum before or not?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Uncleeurope on June 09, 2019, 03:58:08 am
He has, just not on this site.

Dunno if you would have preferred him to answer but I donít really care.

We need to move this along.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: silverspawn on June 09, 2019, 04:11:11 am
He has, just not on this site.

Dunno if you would have preferred him to answer but I donít really care.

I don't mind if someone else answers. Do you know how often? Like once or like 10 times?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Uncleeurope on June 09, 2019, 04:21:32 am
He has, just not on this site.

Dunno if you would have preferred him to answer but I donít really care.

I don't mind if someone else answers. Do you know how often? Like once or like 10 times?

3-ish? In a blitz format, though.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: silverspawn on June 09, 2019, 04:25:22 am
Thanks. In that case, I debatepro is an ok lynch. I still want to hear from pubby, though.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: MiX on June 09, 2019, 04:40:53 am
ADK and MiX,  are you still scumreading gkrieg?

Barely, at this point I would probably say "no".

What's with people being so difficult about answering questions in this game? Have you been scum before or not?

He did answer, notice how the post he quoted mentioned he was partners with people.

Thanks. In that case, I debatepro is an ok lynch. I still want to hear from pubby, though.

Huh. What made you turn around?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: silverspawn on June 09, 2019, 04:42:48 am
@SS:
Did you miss both MCMCís answers to your question? You both have a cluster of posts about different topics within about 2.5 hours of each other.
I knew that he had made that post which I think you're calling the first answer. Idk what second answer you're referring to.

Did you mean to appropriate EFHWís followup question as your own or did I miss your question in another post?

idk what you're talking about.

Why is this important and what more could they say? MCMC functionally said: "had some town reads, block could have led to interesting interactions for future examination"
There's really no way that answering this would be a good idea.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: silverspawn on June 09, 2019, 04:43:36 am
Huh. What made you turn around?

Debatepro feels quite different from his first fds game. And the wiki thing isn't that strong of an argument.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: silverspawn on June 09, 2019, 04:47:48 am
Debatepro feels a bit like he's trying hard to be unimpressed. That could be a scum thing.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Uncleeurope on June 09, 2019, 04:50:25 am
Eh, Iím not feeling it hugely. I am also not overly opposed.

My main qualm is he will be easier to catch later due to him giving more analysis.

I think we go for a quite run one.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Uncleeurope on June 09, 2019, 04:51:07 am
Quieter*
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: MiX on June 09, 2019, 04:55:38 am
Quieter*

Have you been phone posting this entire day?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: silverspawn on June 09, 2019, 04:56:04 am
Whom do you want to lynch? I don't think e or joth are lynches I can get behind.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: MiX on June 09, 2019, 04:57:21 am
Do you have a reason for this vote? [db8 voting for MiX]

It is a data point. The value of voting for someone else hasnít risen above the value gained by voting for you. It is not always useful to share the full extent of the reasons, although if you read close enough, you might be able to pick it out.

I'm sorry, I have no idea what value there is in voting me, and I cannot determine what it is through your posts. Maybe you can help?

Whom do you want to lynch? I don't think e or joth are lynches I can get behind.

I understand being unwilling to lynch joth, but why not e?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: silverspawn on June 09, 2019, 05:03:08 am
I mean, that would just be a null lynch. I don't think a null lynch on e is what I need in my life right now.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Uncleeurope on June 09, 2019, 05:11:52 am
Quieter*

Have you been phone posting this entire day?

Yuppers.

Why do you ask?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Uncleeurope on June 09, 2019, 05:14:03 am
I mean, that would just be a null lynch. I don't think a null lynch on e is what I need in my life right now.

I mean, it isnít really a null lynch.

You should do an iso and come back to me. If you still feel lukewarm then we can talk.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: MiX on June 09, 2019, 05:16:55 am
Quieter*

Have you been phone posting this entire day?

Yuppers.

Why do you ask?

There goes the one reason I had to scumread you...
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Uncleeurope on June 09, 2019, 05:23:45 am
Quieter*

Have you been phone posting this entire day?

Yuppers.

Why do you ask?

There goes the one reason I had to scumread you...

I write the same way on both platforms. At least I think I do...

I am generally fairly clipped and avoid wall posts.

I also avoid quotes in general.

Interesting that you put weight on my writin style...
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Debatepro on June 09, 2019, 05:38:37 am
What's with people being so difficult about answering questions in this game? Have you been scum before or not?

I answered you and provided links to the games so you could go read them yourself. I was partners with e, EFHW, and Eddie over those 2 games. See links next to less pressure in my post. Also, you didnít answer my questions, which point out an interesting interaction and mix up by you.

Vote: SS

All town, remember this and the reference post, when he comes back and says ďhow could we have known, Debatepro was acting scummy.Ē

All my posts have been probing people to get more information for town.


Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Glooble on June 09, 2019, 06:37:07 am
vote:pubby

As unsatisfied as I was with DatSwanís answer, I donít think itís a strong case to lynch him on.

I donít want to lynch joth or MiX. Joth because I am townreading him and MiX because Iím not scumreading him anymore than the baseline and heís contributing more than most of the town. I sort of see the cases on debatepro and ss but Iím not sold.

I would like pubby to answer my question.

Townreading ADK, mcmc, and ash for now, with the caveat that ADK has fooled me well in the past.

EFHW is a total question mark for me. Maybe Iíll iso her this afternoon.

e, pps, pubby- gotta hear more from yaíll.



Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Glooble on June 09, 2019, 06:38:51 am
Left out the space. vote: pubby. Normally I hate lurker lynches but given how the game basically died for like two days despite being a 15-person game Iím guessing we got some scum lurkers.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Glooble on June 09, 2019, 06:42:42 am
Looks like I forgot Eddie and Gkrieg. So, for the sake of completeness- Eddie- slight town, gkrieg- slight scum for some of his reactions to setup/traitor discussion. Might also be worth a reread.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: silverspawn on June 09, 2019, 06:46:55 am
I mean, that would just be a null lynch. I don't think a null lynch on e is what I need in my life right now.

I mean, it isnít really a null lynch.

You should do an iso and come back to me. If you still feel lukewarm then we can talk.

I have done an ISO before saying it was a null lynch. I think his ISO is null.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: MiX on June 09, 2019, 07:01:57 am
Quieter*

Have you been phone posting this entire day?

Yuppers.

Why do you ask?

There goes the one reason I had to scumread you...

I write the same way on both platforms. At least I think I do...

I am generally fairly clipped and avoid wall posts.

I also avoid quotes in general.

Interesting that you put weight on my writin style...

Last time you were town I don't remember you posting like this. This reminds me of scum!you when we were buddies. But being exclusively phone posting does that, so it's NAI now, which means the only thing I had to scumread you has dissapeared.


I have a pretty strong feeling joth is trying extremely hard to immitate his town meta, and last time I had such a strong hunch it was on scum (if you must know, it was in RMM52 and it was shraeye) so that's where I want to leave my vote. Sadly, I don't think there's a good case for joth other than this, so I don't think he's getting lynched today.

I wouldn't want pubby to die here, he's the easiest person to mislynch in the entire planet. Would rather want EFHW, which is someone I should seriously reread and iso and metaread and all that.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Glooble on June 09, 2019, 07:09:32 am
Reread gkrieg and EFHW. Don't want to lynch either of them today.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: jotheonah on June 09, 2019, 07:09:43 am
vote: debatepro
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: MiX on June 09, 2019, 07:15:08 am
What's with people being so difficult about answering questions in this game? Have you been scum before or not?

I answered you and provided links to the games so you could go read them yourself. I was partners with e, EFHW, and Eddie over those 2 games. See links next to less pressure in my post.

To be fair, I don't think I can read those games without signing up. So, at least for me, those games don't exist. Man I gotta get in that, but I kinda promised myself I wouldn't invest so much in these types of games...

Reread gkrieg and EFHW. Don't want to lynch either of them today.

I don't believe you. As in, I don't think said rereads would lead you to this conclusion, given I just did one of EFHW and arrived at a different conclusion. But okay

vote: debatepro

Self-defense mode: Activated. But...

Vote: SS

This is a very interesting vote. Care to explain in extreme detail?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: faust on June 09, 2019, 07:16:42 am
Vote Count 1.8

MiX (1): pingpongsam
DatSwan (2): 2.71828....., gkrieg13
jotheonah (3): pubby, A Drowned Kernel, MiX
2.71828..... (1): Uncleeurope
Glooble (1): EFHW
pubby (3): silverspawn, mcmcsalot, Glooble
silverspawn (1): Debatepro
Deatepro (1): jotheonah

Not Voting (2): DatSwan, ashersky

With 15 alive, it takes 8 to lynch. Day 1 ends on June 10, 2019, 10:00:00 am. That is in under 27 hours.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Debatepro on June 09, 2019, 07:32:55 am
What's with people being so difficult about answering questions in this game? Have you been scum before or not?

I answered you and provided links to the games so you could go read them yourself. I was partners with e, EFHW, and Eddie over those 2 games. See links next to less pressure in my post.

To be fair, I don't think I can read those games without signing up. So, at least for me, those games don't exist. Man I gotta get in that, but I kinda promised myself I wouldn't invest so much in these types of games...



If I said I was never scum, it would be untrue. So I provided links to the games I was partners with e, EFHW, and Eddie. They happen to be on a different platform.

Quote from: MiX
Vote: SS

This is a very interesting vote. Care to explain in extreme detail?

I did. SS and MCMC both vote for you for the same reason, yet SS doesnít see that MCMC answers his question. SS then appropriated EFHWís question as his own in response to you pointing out MCMC answered his question. SS isnít this flawed as Town.

Itís also as I hypothesized. Scum is willing to vote for you in case there is a lynch, but they prefer town lynch you.


(On phone in different country, doing best to keep up)
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: silverspawn on June 09, 2019, 07:56:22 am
If I said I was never scum, it would be untrue. So I provided links to the games I was partners with e, EFHW, and Eddie. They happen to be on a different platform.

You said "partners" which is ambiguous. You didn't say: "Yes, I was scum once, here is a link:". You made it so I had to check the link to figure out what exactly you meant, and I can't read the games without signing up.

If those games were short and semi-official, it's not the same as proper f.ds games though. Still, it makes the scum narrative, somewhat less likely, from my perspective.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: silverspawn on June 09, 2019, 07:57:06 am
I still have no clue what EFHW question you're talking about. Nothing I asked was based on anything she said.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Glooble on June 09, 2019, 08:08:51 am
MiX, if you want to lynch EFHW today, by all means make your case. I didnít say I couldnít be convinced.

Hereís where I am after reading her 16 posts. None of her posts came out as especially scummy to me. She didnít come off especially townie either. Her vote on me was a little random, but weíre all kinda grasping at straws this game so Iím not going to hold it against her. Her position on letting the traitor signal so we can catch them is reasonable. She and I had the same thoughts about DatSwan at the same time, which makes me inclined to think her DatSwan vote was rational. But it was also a weak case, so she backing off was rational too. Would I have stayed on a little longer to let some pressure build up and force DatSwan to engage? Yes. Was not doing so scummy? Maybe a little, but probably itís just a different town playstyle.

What am I missing?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: EFHW on June 09, 2019, 08:12:51 am
Left out the space. vote: pubby. Normally I hate lurker lynches but given how the game basically died for like two days despite being a 15-person game Iím guessing we got some scum lurkers.
I don't follow your logic here.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: silverspawn on June 09, 2019, 08:13:01 am
I'm very likely not supporting a lynch on EFHW or gkrieg today.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: EFHW on June 09, 2019, 08:17:05 am
I still have no clue what EFHW question you're talking about. Nothing I asked was based on anything she said.
I asked mcmc how he thought the voting bloc thing would work. You also did that, but Debate missed your post, so he thought you were complaining that my post didn't get answered.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: A Drowned Kernel on June 09, 2019, 08:17:36 am
@ss: I don't know if this affects your debatepro read or not, but it might be relevant information: I looked back at his first scum on the other site, and he did make a point to ask a question about the mechanics of the scum's kill in the main thread, rather than asking his teammates in scum's daychat

I'm null on debate at the moment but it's worth pointing out

What don't you like about a gkrieg lynch?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Glooble on June 09, 2019, 08:18:34 am
Left out the space. vote: pubby. Normally I hate lurker lynches but given how the game basically died for like two days despite being a 15-person game Iím guessing we got some scum lurkers.
I don't follow your logic here.

Iím saying we have a lot of... letís not saying lurkers, but not-super-active player. Enough that thereís almost certainly some scum there. And lynching a player who 1. Isnít  really contributing and 2. We wonít have much info on going into future days is not the worst idea.

Iíd rather lynch someone whoís acting scummy, but so far no one has really crossed that threshold for me.

Also I really want pubby to explain why he said he was unlikely to move his vote from joth.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: EFHW on June 09, 2019, 08:29:41 am
Quote
SS isnít this flawed as Town

vote: debate. Even if he did appropriate my question,  that's not very scummy.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: silverspawn on June 09, 2019, 08:44:38 am
@ss: I don't know if this affects your debatepro read or not, but it might be relevant information: I looked back at his first scum on the other site, and he did make a point to ask a question about the mechanics of the scum's kill in the main thread, rather than asking his teammates in scum's daychat

I'm null on debate at the moment but it's worth pointing out

What don't you like about a gkrieg lynch?

Yeah, that makes me want to lynch him quite a bit more. Still not going to unvote pubby until they at least show up, though.

I'm townreading gkrieg, partially based on gut and partially based on something I don't really want to disclose.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: jotheonah on June 09, 2019, 09:15:07 am
vote: debatepro

Self-defense mode: Activated

Nope.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Debatepro on June 09, 2019, 10:07:50 am
Quote
SS isnít this flawed as Town

vote: debate. Even if he did appropriate my question,  that's not very scummy.

The evidence is below.

SS continues to pester (98 & 315) MCMC about how serious was he about the block plan, but MCMC already said it, not once but twice (253 & 271). They MCMC & SS where functionally taking about MiX being scummy about lying in that same timeframe (MCMC-258 & SS-261).

When confronted with this fact (MiX 317), SS says that wasn't his question (yes it was) and morphs the question into EFHWs question (260). Why is SS push MCMC when MCMC answered the question twice while SS was on? Why does SS ask EFHW's question, partners?


The Dialogs: (Read this section bottom up)

SS (320 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=19685.msg803013#msg803013)) - Not quite answer, want to know what would they have done if people went along?

MiX (317 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=19685.msg803008#msg803008)) - they did in 271.

SS (315 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=19685.msg803006#msg803006)) - 2 days later - Please answer my ?

SS (276 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=19685.msg802859#msg802859)) 1009am - dialog mix policy vote, donít lie or not keep promises as Town.

MCMC (275 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=19685.msg802858#msg802858)) 1006am - answers db8ís question about how scum hunting can be non-protown

MCMC (271 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=19685.msg802854#msg802854)) 956am - had some town reads, block could have led to interesting interactions for future examination

SS (261 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=19685.msg802844#msg802844)) 911am - Vote MiX for ďthere is no reason for me to follow through with my wordĒ

EFHW (260 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=19685.msg802843#msg802843)) 908am - How did you imagine the plan working?

MCMC (258 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=19685.msg802841#msg802841)) 854am - Questions MiX for ďthere is no reason for me to follow through with my wordĒ

MCMC (253 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=19685.msg802832#msg802832)) 758am - Vote: EFHW & Serious

SS (98 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=19685.msg802627#msg802627)) - how serious was your block?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: silverspawn on June 09, 2019, 10:27:01 am
debatepro, what are you actually imagining is happening here? Even if you disagree with me that the question wasn't answered, how could that possibly be interesting enough to talk so much about?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: pubby on June 09, 2019, 11:42:09 am
Also I really want pubby to explain why he said he was unlikely to move his vote from joth.
Dunno what's confusing about this. Joth was and is my strongest scumread by large enough margin to make up my mind. I don't see the point in second-guessing myself or muddying up the thread with meme votes. My vote remains.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: gkrieg13 on June 09, 2019, 11:58:50 am
Between debate and pubby I definitely would vote pubby. Let me find a vote count
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: gkrieg13 on June 09, 2019, 12:01:34 pm
Vote Count 1.8

MiX (1): pingpongsam
DatSwan (2): 2.71828....., gkrieg13
jotheonah (3): pubby, A Drowned Kernel, MiX
2.71828..... (1): Uncleeurope
Glooble (1): EFHW
pubby (3): silverspawn, mcmcsalot, Glooble
silverspawn (1): Debatepro
Deatepro (1): jotheonah

Not Voting (2): DatSwan, ashersky

With 15 alive, it takes 8 to lynch. Day 1 ends on June 10, 2019, 16:00. That is in under 27 hours.

Something is wrong with this deadline. This still isnít under 27 hours
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: gkrieg13 on June 09, 2019, 12:03:02 pm
Anyways, I thought the deadline was sooner and that we were picking between debate and pubby. Iíll look at joth though. I donít really remember anything from him.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: gkrieg13 on June 09, 2019, 12:03:24 pm
How does globule feel about joth?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Glooble on June 09, 2019, 12:07:02 pm
Also I really want pubby to explain why he said he was unlikely to move his vote from joth.
Dunno what's confusing about this. Joth was and is my strongest scumread by large enough margin to make up my mind. I don't see the point in second-guessing myself or muddying up the thread with meme votes. My vote remains.

That is an answer, but not one that makes me want to move my vote off of you.

Have you considered how this position looks to the rest of us? How it excludes you from interactions that we could use to judge your towniness?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Glooble on June 09, 2019, 12:10:46 pm
How does globule feel about joth?

Seems like heís playing like he always does. Maybe a little less invested than usual. I guess that could be a scumtell, but eh, itís not a great one. Easily explained by irl pressures. On the whole Iím townreading him.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on June 09, 2019, 12:41:00 pm
Vote Count 1.8

With 15 alive, it takes 8 to lynch. Day 1 ends on June 10, 2019, 16:00. That is in under 27 hours.

Something is wrong with this deadline. This still isnít under 27 hours

Yeah, the math doesnít add up. Time zones are hard. Itís almost 27 hours away now. 

EDIT: This information was unfortunately wrong. The correct deadline is June 10, 2019, 10:00:00 am. Sorry about the confusion.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Debatepro on June 09, 2019, 02:04:14 pm
debatepro, what are you actually imagining is happening here? Even if you disagree with me that the question wasn't answered, how could that possibly be interesting enough to talk so much about?

Why was it so important he answer it again to you?

Do you have a better case on someone else I should be examining? I mean you have been pushing me, which is wrong. Iíve never played with a traitor, asked a question, and that makes me candidate 1 to you.

So when I flip town, you will have waited all this time on me.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: silverspawn on June 09, 2019, 02:12:48 pm
The traitor thing is the biggest argument against your lynch. It makes you less scummy, not more. You're scummy based on attitude.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: silverspawn on June 09, 2019, 02:13:30 pm
Why was it so important he answer it again to you?

Please don't be condescending. I don't think he ever answered it.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mcmcsalot on June 09, 2019, 03:14:50 pm
Had a super busy weekend, I'll get to this later today or tomorrow morning
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: faust on June 09, 2019, 03:38:37 pm
Vote Count 1.8

With 15 alive, it takes 8 to lynch. Day 1 ends on June 10, 2019, 16:00. That is in under 27 hours.

Something is wrong with this deadline. This still isnít under 27 hours
Yeah, the math doesnít add up. Time zones are hard. Itís almost 27 hours away now. 
In fact, the time tag got lost somewhere it is now fixed. The deadline is June 10, 2019, 10:00:00 am, in about 18.5 hours.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Glooble on June 09, 2019, 06:48:20 pm
This is not a great situation for town to be in with 16 hours to deadline. We really need to start consolidating around a candidate if we want a lynch to happen.

Everyone is talking about debatepro but only 2 people are actually voting debatepro. Thatís weird, isnít it? This close to the end of the day shouldnít we be talking about the leading wagons?

Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: silverspawn on June 09, 2019, 06:53:10 pm
I refuse to unvote pubby until they at least try to do something. If they're this quick to give up then we might as well lynch them.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Glooble on June 09, 2019, 07:06:50 pm
I refuse to unvote pubby until they at least try to do something. If they're this quick to give up then we might as well lynch them.

Reasonable. Though you moving off of pubby would leave only the joth wagon, and thatís a wagon Iím unlikely to join.

Debatepro, Eddie. Youíre each on your own little wagons. Are any of the slightly larger wagons appealing to you?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Glooble on June 09, 2019, 07:08:07 pm
Wait, I guess it would leave the debatepro wagon the same size as the joth wagon.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: MiX on June 09, 2019, 07:08:29 pm
I refuse to unvote pubby until they at least try to do something. If they're this quick to give up then we might as well lynch them.

Leaving for the night, so while I sleep Vote: pubby. Okay, we're not lynching joth, nor e, nor EFHW, nor gkrieg...I think the only other person I would lynch is Glooble?

Have fun guys!

Vote: pubby so it's more visible
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: EFHW on June 09, 2019, 07:09:55 pm
I prefer debate, but if that proves to be a non starter, I'll consolidate elsewhere in time to be useful. I can't be on at deadline.

PPE: I would vote Glooble
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Glooble on June 09, 2019, 07:12:15 pm
I can be on at deadline.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: A Drowned Kernel on June 09, 2019, 07:15:11 pm
I'll be on later this evening as well as at deadline. My only concern with the pubby wagon is that it's so lazy, but I'll vote there if necessary to get a lynch
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: A Drowned Kernel on June 09, 2019, 07:16:45 pm
I just saw pubby's post up there. It makes me want to vote him a lot less.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Glooble on June 09, 2019, 07:22:22 pm
I just saw pubby's post up there. It makes me want to vote him a lot less.

Why? Curious, cause it made me want to vote him more.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: jotheonah on June 09, 2019, 07:28:02 pm

So when I flip town, you will have waited all this time on me.

Classic scum phrasing for real though.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: jotheonah on June 09, 2019, 07:32:57 pm
I guess I could switch to pubby. If weíre doomed to have a crappy consensus lynch, it may as well be not me.

Itís not really clear to me how much my head is on the proverbial block though. Seems like not very much, but if thereís an ďoh crap itís deadline letís pile on the largest wagonĒ moment, it feels like that could hit me.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: gkrieg13 on June 09, 2019, 07:44:23 pm
vote: pubby
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: A Drowned Kernel on June 09, 2019, 07:45:48 pm
I just saw pubby's post up there. It makes me want to vote him a lot less.

Why? Curious, cause it made me want to vote him more.

He's sticking to his guns, when I would expect scum to either go completely silent or backpedal.

They're kind of crappy guns, but he's sticking to them
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Glooble on June 09, 2019, 07:57:27 pm
I just saw pubby's post up there. It makes me want to vote him a lot less.

Why? Curious, cause it made me want to vote him more.

He's sticking to his guns, when I would expect scum to either go completely silent or backpedal.

They're kind of crappy guns, but he's sticking to them

If pubby had said all of the things he's been saying and than also laid out an actual case on joth, I'd probably be townreading him. But this is his supposedly air-tight, "not likely to move" case:

@pubby, explain your vote and I'll probably sheep you.
I think joth is trying harder than anyone else to appear innocent. I don't believe him when he says he's not "into" this game - I mean, he had opinions about voting blocs and strategy and even tallied up the votes for everyone.

But if he is town, I won't feel terrible if he's lynched. Because again, I'd rather lynch the guy who's not feeling the game than a player more involved.

That does not seem to me like a case that's worth plopping down with a week to deadline and then calling it a day.

If pubby is scumreading joth so strongly, why isn't he trying to get others to vote for him? Why isn't he engaging with joth and trying to get him to slip up? If he's a towny who really thinks joth is scum, I think he'd be working to get joth lynched.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: A Drowned Kernel on June 09, 2019, 08:04:05 pm
I just saw pubby's post up there. It makes me want to vote him a lot less.

Why? Curious, cause it made me want to vote him more.

He's sticking to his guns, when I would expect scum to either go completely silent or backpedal.

They're kind of crappy guns, but he's sticking to them

If pubby had said all of the things he's been saying and than also laid out an actual case on joth, I'd probably be townreading him. But this is his supposedly air-tight, "not likely to move" case:

@pubby, explain your vote and I'll probably sheep you.
I think joth is trying harder than anyone else to appear innocent. I don't believe him when he says he's not "into" this game - I mean, he had opinions about voting blocs and strategy and even tallied up the votes for everyone.

But if he is town, I won't feel terrible if he's lynched. Because again, I'd rather lynch the guy who's not feeling the game than a player more involved.

That does not seem to me like a case that's worth plopping down with a week to deadline and then calling it a day.

If pubby is scumreading joth so strongly, why isn't he trying to get others to vote for him? Why isn't he engaging with joth and trying to get him to slip up? If he's a towny who really thinks joth is scum, I think he'd be working to get joth lynched.

I dunno. I guess the way that I'm reading pubby is that there's a lot of players in this game, it's easy to feel overwhelmed, and he found a semi-decent read and plopped himself there.

Maybe I'm protecting too much of my own feelings onto another player, but I just don't seem the scum narrative for pubby's play
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Uncleeurope on June 09, 2019, 08:42:17 pm
I refuse to unvote pubby until they at least try to do something. If they're this quick to give up then we might as well lynch them.

Reasonable. Though you moving off of pubby would leave only the joth wagon, and thatís a wagon Iím unlikely to join.

Debatepro, Eddie. Youíre each on your own little wagons. Are any of the slightly larger wagons appealing to you?

Nope.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: EFHW on June 09, 2019, 09:56:29 pm
I don't like the pubby lynch. And Debate has been scummy, imo. The case against silver was over the top, as they say, and he feels aggressive or amped up to me. MiX was right about the reads list, too, even if he was a bit heavy handed in how he pointed out that it actually said very little.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: EFHW on June 09, 2019, 09:57:15 pm
vote count please
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: ashersky on June 09, 2019, 09:57:59 pm
I'm around for the next 30-50 minutes or so.  Any particular passages to re-read that would be useful?  I have "read" up to now, mostly skimming long posts and looking for votes and such.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: EFHW on June 09, 2019, 10:03:27 pm
ISO debate and tell us what you think.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: jotheonah on June 09, 2019, 10:10:01 pm
I just saw pubby's post up there. It makes me want to vote him a lot less.

Why? Curious, cause it made me want to vote him more.

He's sticking to his guns, when I would expect scum to either go completely silent or backpedal.

They're kind of crappy guns, but he's sticking to them

If pubby had said all of the things he's been saying and than also laid out an actual case on joth, I'd probably be townreading him. But this is his supposedly air-tight, "not likely to move" case:

@pubby, explain your vote and I'll probably sheep you.
I think joth is trying harder than anyone else to appear innocent. I don't believe him when he says he's not "into" this game - I mean, he had opinions about voting blocs and strategy and even tallied up the votes for everyone.

But if he is town, I won't feel terrible if he's lynched. Because again, I'd rather lynch the guy who's not feeling the game than a player more involved.

That does not seem to me like a case that's worth plopping down with a week to deadline and then calling it a day.

If pubby is scumreading joth so strongly, why isn't he trying to get others to vote for him? Why isn't he engaging with joth and trying to get him to slip up? If he's a towny who really thinks joth is scum, I think he'd be working to get joth lynched.

I dunno. I guess the way that I'm reading pubby is that there's a lot of players in this game, it's easy to feel overwhelmed, and he found a semi-decent read and plopped himself there.

Maybe I'm protecting too much of my own feelings onto another player, but I just don't seem the scum narrative for pubby's play

If thatís where he is, then his ragging on me for saying I canít get into the game comes off a bit hypocritical IMO.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: ashersky on June 09, 2019, 10:14:26 pm
ISO debate and tell us what you think.

Town or Traitor.

A majority of their posts are questions (either about something or to someone), which is very faust-ian.  When faust does it, it's alignment-null, but unclear here.

I'm taking into consideration that I don't know debatepro at all (we may have played in a game together, but I honestly don't know at this point without looking).  There's a mention that they are an adult, has debate experience.  The posts that aren't questions focus on the semantics of posts (I think I'm using semantics correctly here) as much or more than the content of posts, which feels debate-y to me.

There's also the "I'm town so it's your fault if you lynch me" warning in there that someone flagged as an auto-scum-response.

Basically, I think the traitor question reads like an "I'm the traitor you guys!" post from a new-ish player trying to figure out how to play the role (incorrectly).  So traitor is on the table.

I don't see as much scumminess in the rest of the posts as compared to others, but maybe me not being directly involved in the quotes helps me there.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: ashersky on June 09, 2019, 10:21:07 pm
I ISOed EFHW too, since she responded to me.

Strong town read.  Nothing out of place from what I would expect from town!EFHW.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: pingpongsam on June 09, 2019, 10:55:08 pm
Just got settled in a hotel room. I can probably be around at deadline but I will be relatively ill informed, or whatever that means for D1. Iím always good for a hammer vote, though, those are fun. So count me in for hammering the popular vote if need be. Maybe ash and I can race for old timesí sake.

Hopefully night lasts until I get back home and I can actually give this game some attention with some D2 information to work with.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Debatepro on June 10, 2019, 12:24:48 am
ISO debate and tell us what you think.

Town or traitor

Basically, I think the traitor question reads like an "I'm the traitor you guys!" post from a new-ish player trying to figure out how to play the role (incorrectly).  So traitor is on the table.

I don't see as much scumminess in the rest of the posts as compared to others, but maybe me not being directly involved in the quotes helps me there.

If I was assigned some role and any role, you can bet your ass I would read and research everything I could about it, like looking for other games it was deployed, before asking how it worked. It doesnít do me any good to tip my hand. If you think itís signaling, I wasnít the one who started the discussion about traitor. Probably doesnít matter, SS thinks it was towny-ish.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Debatepro on June 10, 2019, 01:23:24 am
Vote: pubby

Reason: I certainly have given SS enough reasons to vote for me, yet he is sticking with his pubby vote. Given how much pubby has said and contributed to the game, I'm not sure scum!ss would be sticking with a pubby vote, unless they suspect a pr.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Debatepro on June 10, 2019, 01:29:44 am
vote count please

Vote count 1.81 (unofficial)

MiX (1): pingpongsam
DatSwan (1): 2.71828.....
jotheonah (2): pubby, A Drowned Kernel
2.71828..... (1): Uncleeurope
pubby (6): silverspawn, mcmcsalot, Glooble, MiX, gkrieg13, Debatepro,
Debatepro (2): jotheonah, EFHW

Not Voting (2): DatSwan, ashersky

* My handle is misspelled in the official vote count.

** V/LA Most of the day today. Driving in a country i don't live or speak the language.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: DatSwan on June 10, 2019, 02:29:54 am
Have finally arrived back at home. Catching up now.

Will be around for a bit and then back for DL.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: 2.71828..... on June 10, 2019, 02:35:16 am
Hey everyone, in laws took up more time than I thought. No plurality lynch? I suppose

Vote: pubby

Open to other lynches, just don't see them happening
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Uncleeurope on June 10, 2019, 03:01:53 am
Pubby is almost guaranteed town.

Vote: debatepro

Not happy about this, but themes the breaks.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: faust on June 10, 2019, 03:26:05 am
Vote Count 1.9

MiX (1): pingpongsam
jotheonah (2): pubby, A Drowned Kernel
pubby (7): silverspawn, mcmcsalot, Glooble, MiX, gkrieg13, Debatepro, 2.71828.....
Deatepro (3): jotheonah, EFHW, Uncleeurope

Not Voting (2): DatSwan, ashersky

With 15 alive, it takes 8 to lynch. Day 1 ends on June 10, 2019, 10:00:00 am. That is in 6.5 hours.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: silverspawn on June 10, 2019, 04:02:49 am
yeah uhu unvote before a wild PPS appears and uses hammer.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: silverspawn on June 10, 2019, 04:03:28 am
Hey everyone, in laws took up more time than I thought. No plurality lynch? I suppose

Vote: pubby

Open to other lynches, just don't see them happening

That was L-1. Remember L-n warnings? They should be a thing.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: silverspawn on June 10, 2019, 04:04:36 am
I can picture faust in the speccy complaining how this is a lazy town vote. @Eddie: if you want another wagon, go for i. there is enough time.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Uncleeurope on June 10, 2019, 04:07:11 am
I will vote in a myriad of places if it means people will sit up and take notice. I moved to Debate as a way to show another wagon could exit in theory.

You vote: e with me to make it look prettier to onlookers.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: silverspawn on June 10, 2019, 04:15:14 am
vote: e
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: 2.71828..... on June 10, 2019, 04:15:48 am
Hey everyone, in laws took up more time than I thought. No plurality lynch? I suppose

Vote: pubby

Open to other lynches, just don't see them happening

That was L-1. Remember L-n warnings? They should be a thing.

Yeah, and I also trust people to never unintentionally hammer.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: MiX on June 10, 2019, 04:21:29 am
Hey everyone, in laws took up more time than I thought. No plurality lynch? I suppose

Vote: pubby

Open to other lynches, just don't see them happening

That was L-1. Remember L-n warnings? They should be a thing.

Yeah, and I also trust people to never unintentionally hammer.

With pps and ash around you can't be safe.

Unvote, that was a fun experience but I don't want pubby to get lynched today.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: 2.71828..... on June 10, 2019, 04:46:04 am
Hey everyone, in laws took up more time than I thought. No plurality lynch? I suppose

Vote: pubby

Open to other lynches, just don't see them happening

That was L-1. Remember L-n warnings? They should be a thing.

Yeah, and I also trust people to never unintentionally hammer.

With pps and ash around you can't be safe.

Unvote, that was a fun experience but I don't want pubby to get lynched today.

But they don't unintentionally hammer. They hammer exactly when they want to.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: 2.71828..... on June 10, 2019, 04:47:02 am
Hey everyone, in laws took up more time than I thought. No plurality lynch? I suppose

Vote: pubby

Open to other lynches, just don't see them happening

That was L-1. Remember L-n warnings? They should be a thing.

Yeah, and I also trust people to never unintentionally hammer.

With pps and ash around you can't be safe.

Unvote, that was a fun experience but I don't want pubby to get lynched today.

Do you want anyone to get lynched today?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: MiX on June 10, 2019, 04:47:31 am
I've lost my enthusiasm for lynching Glooble, which marks the end of my last serious scumread. I am now lost.

Vote: joth I think...

PPE: And you never know when that is. But I don't think it's scummy to put people at L-1 like that.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: MiX on June 10, 2019, 04:54:05 am
Vote: Debatepro, actually, seems better here. And there's no way I'll get a good joth case.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: silverspawn on June 10, 2019, 05:27:43 am
Hey everyone, in laws took up more time than I thought. No plurality lynch? I suppose

Vote: pubby

Open to other lynches, just don't see them happening

That was L-1. Remember L-n warnings? They should be a thing.

Yeah, and I also trust people to never unintentionally hammer.

I don't, but I particularly don't trust PPS to not hammer intentionally when doing so would be a bad idea.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: ashersky on June 10, 2019, 06:01:03 am
Six or so hours left?  Hammer is better than no lynch.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Uncleeurope on June 10, 2019, 06:09:00 am
Six or so hours left?  Hammer is better than no lynch.

Depends on the person.

The way I see it, people voting pubby are getting all the scum points from me.

Scum don't know the traitor, and that means they are on the lookout for cues. Scum wanna save our boy debatepro (regardless of his actual traitor-ness), and by flopping a vote over onto pubby, it just screams lazy.

Also there is a myriad of dudes who are saying "lurk lynches = bad" but are making an exception for pubbles.

Pubbles is probs town here. I think I will play the part of shraeye here and recommend we lynch someone no one has talked about yet (e, unless there is another recommendation) or we don't lynch at all. Or we at least don't lynch pubby.

I won't be hammering him.

I could also be dead wrong.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Uncleeurope on June 10, 2019, 06:09:16 am
Also, I thought it was 4 hours.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Glooble on June 10, 2019, 06:22:17 am
Is e any less of a lurker than pubby this game?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Glooble on June 10, 2019, 06:25:25 am
I guess he has over twice as many posts, so technically yes.

Better question: what makes e more likely to be scum than pubby?

What makes debatepro more likely to be scum than pubby?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: EFHW on June 10, 2019, 06:27:28 am
I don't like the pubby lynch. And Debate has been scummy, imo. The case against silver was over the top, as they say, and he feels aggressive or amped up to me. MiX was right about the reads list, too, even if he was a bit heavy handed in how he pointed out that it actually said very little.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Glooble on June 10, 2019, 06:46:11 am
What's with people being so difficult about answering questions in this game? Have you been scum before or not?

I answered you and provided links to the games so you could go read them yourself. I was partners with e, EFHW, and Eddie over those 2 games. See links next to less pressure in my post. Also, you didnít answer my questions, which point out an interesting interaction and mix up by you.

Vote: SS

All town, remember this and the reference post, when he comes back and says ďhow could we have known, Debatepro was acting scummy.Ē

All my posts have been probing people to get more information for town.

The defensiveness here does feel kinda scummy. I just donít think itís necessarily scummy enough to justify lynching an active player whoís actually been participating over a player whoís willfully refusing to participate. But Iíll move my vote there if the town does.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: silverspawn on June 10, 2019, 06:53:08 am
It's not like I actually have any intention of lynching e, I was just trying to make a point about not having to go with the default option. If this becomes properly active, then tons of stuff can happen in 5 hours.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Glooble on June 10, 2019, 07:02:56 am
We have 3 hours.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Uncleeurope on June 10, 2019, 07:06:44 am
I guess he has over twice as many posts, so technically yes.

Better question: what makes e more likely to be scum than pubby?

What makes debatepro more likely to be scum than pubby?

Because people want pubby dead willy-nilly.

Like, what is the pubby case?

The fact that my e thing is being largely ignored while pubby is gaining traction is very telling.

If you see no difference, why not vote e?

That goes for everyone.

Also note that e is largely ignoring me.

Not refuting, not challenging, ignoring.

He doesn't want people talking about him.

*Shrugs*
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: pingpongsam on June 10, 2019, 07:06:55 am
We have 3 hours.

Since when did we stop using forum time? I thought we had about 9 hours. I like forum time since it is my local time.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: EFHW on June 10, 2019, 07:08:53 am
We have 3 hours.

Since when did we stop using forum time? I thought we had about 9 hours. I like forum time since it is my local time.
The time was changed from 4 pm to 10 am.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Glooble on June 10, 2019, 07:29:06 am
Here is my pubby case: if pubby is town, and confident that joth is scum, why hasnít he spent the last week making a case on joth? If I had someone I believed so strongly was scum that I was willing to vote for them a week before deadline and declare that my vote wasnít moving, I would be trying to evangelize. I certainly wouldnít just check out.

If on the other hand, I was a fairly inexperienced scum player in a large game, I might fake one giant scumread and use it as an excuse not to participate in the discussion for the rest of the day, thereby protecting myself from potential scumslips.

That narrative seems just as likely to me as ADKs, if not more so.

People want pubby dead because they want a lynch and his seems like the most viable. Plus heís not really contributing so itís not a huge loss. Also, having a player who hasnít interacted a lot around in later days is a liability.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Uncleeurope on June 10, 2019, 07:32:03 am
I would never do that as scum.

It is just asking for attention with nothing to gain from it.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: MiX on June 10, 2019, 07:32:40 am
Here is my pubby case: if pubby is town, and confident that joth is scum, why hasnít he spent the last week making a case on joth? If I had someone I believed so strongly was scum that I was willing to vote for them a week before deadline and declare that my vote wasnít moving, I would be trying to evangelize. I certainly wouldnít just check out.

If on the other hand, I was a fairly inexperienced scum player in a large game, I might fake one giant scumread and use it as an excuse not to participate in the discussion for the rest of the day, thereby protecting myself from potential scumslips.

That narrative seems just as likely to me as ADKs, if not more so.

People want pubby dead because they want a lynch and his seems like the most viable. Plus heís not really contributing so itís not a huge loss. Also, having a player who hasnít interacted a lot around in later days is a liability.

Literally check his other game, where he was scumreading someone and NEVER PUSHED HIM. Ever. This is town!pubby.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: silverspawn on June 10, 2019, 07:36:55 am
How active were they (he?) in the other game.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: ashersky on June 10, 2019, 07:43:50 am
I would never do that as scum.

It is just asking for attention with nothing to gain from it.

Who are you responding to here?  You arenít pubby, right?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: pubby on June 10, 2019, 07:44:25 am
Here is my pubby case: if pubby is town, and confident that joth is scum, why hasnít he spent the last week making a case on joth?
When are d1 votes ever confident?

joth is my #1 scum read but that doesn't mean I'm positive about him. Rather I just don't see anyone better (worse?) to vote for.

Speaking of last game, my first two scum reads of that game were on track, but I didn't act on them. So yeah, that is influencing my decision.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: pubby on June 10, 2019, 07:47:39 am
vote: debatepro

 8)
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: faust on June 10, 2019, 08:03:00 am
Vote Count 1.10

MiX (1): pingpongsam
jotheonah (1): A Drowned Kernel
pubby (5): mcmcsalot, Glooble, gkrieg13, Debatepro, 2.71828.....
Debatepro (4): jotheonah, EFHW, MiX, pubby
2.71828..... (2): Uncleeurope, silverspawn

Not Voting (2): DatSwan, ashersky

With 15 alive, it takes 8 to lynch. Day 1 ends on June 10, 2019, 10:00:00 am, in just under 2 hours.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Uncleeurope on June 10, 2019, 08:17:10 am
I would never do that as scum.

It is just asking for attention with nothing to gain from it.

Who are you responding to here?  You arenít pubby, right?

You think pubby is scum, then?

You think we done got one?

I appreciate the confidence.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Uncleeurope on June 10, 2019, 08:18:08 am
Vote: Debate
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: A Drowned Kernel on June 10, 2019, 08:22:01 am
I'll take debatepro over pubby

vote: debatepro
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: A Drowned Kernel on June 10, 2019, 08:22:26 am
L-2 for those counting
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Uncleeurope on June 10, 2019, 08:24:16 am
But would you swap to e?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: A Drowned Kernel on June 10, 2019, 08:24:57 am
I would but there's a lot less people there
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Glooble on June 10, 2019, 08:25:14 am
vote: debatepro

That's L-1.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Uncleeurope on June 10, 2019, 08:25:53 am
Vote: e
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Uncleeurope on June 10, 2019, 08:26:35 am
I also could vote ash
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Glooble on June 10, 2019, 08:27:02 am
Vote: e

Did you actually make a case beyond "why not e?" at some point? Did I just miss it?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: MiX on June 10, 2019, 08:28:45 am
How active were they (he?) in the other game.

As much as this, I suppose. A little bit more, but comparable.


Yeah let's kill Debatepro, meh.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Uncleeurope on June 10, 2019, 08:29:00 am
Vote: e

Did you actually make a case beyond "why not e?" at some point? Did I just miss it?

Gut read + why not? People seem against it for some reason.

Would you prefer ash?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: A Drowned Kernel on June 10, 2019, 08:30:34 am
How active were they (he?) in the other game.

As much as this, I suppose. A little bit more, but comparable.


Yeah let's kill Debatepro, meh.

This post really makes me want to lynch mix. Is it too late for that?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Glooble on June 10, 2019, 08:30:56 am
Vote: e

Did you actually make a case beyond "why not e?" at some point? Did I just miss it?

Gut read + why not? People seem against it for some reason.

Would you prefer ash?

No. I would vote e over ash if those were the only two options.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: silverspawn on June 10, 2019, 08:33:31 am
How active were they (he?) in the other game.

As much as this, I suppose. A little bit more, but comparable.


Yeah let's kill Debatepro, meh.

This post really makes me want to lynch mix. Is it too late for that?

not necessarily, but it doesn't make me want to lynch mix. Can you explain what's so scummy about it?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Uncleeurope on June 10, 2019, 08:35:35 am
MiX's response to the pubby wagon jumped him up on my radar. I honestly wouldn't mind that terribly.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Uncleeurope on June 10, 2019, 08:36:16 am
Vote: e

Did you actually make a case beyond "why not e?" at some point? Did I just miss it?

Gut read + why not? People seem against it for some reason.

Would you prefer ash?

No. I would vote e over ash if those were the only two options.

Interesting, why?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: A Drowned Kernel on June 10, 2019, 08:38:27 am
The "let's kill debatepro" line seems kind of affected, if that makes sense. Especially since he's already voting there
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Glooble on June 10, 2019, 08:39:17 am
Vote: e

Did you actually make a case beyond "why not e?" at some point? Did I just miss it?

Gut read + why not? People seem against it for some reason.

Would you prefer ash?

No. I would vote e over ash if those were the only two options.

Interesting, why?

Without reading back over the game, e hasn't done anything that registered on my radar as particularly townie or particularly scummy. Ash has done at least one thing that registered as townie to me.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: jotheonah on June 10, 2019, 08:43:50 am
Well, letís try it.

vote: MiX
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Uncleeurope on June 10, 2019, 08:43:56 am
I also think silver is a half-decent lynch.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Uncleeurope on June 10, 2019, 08:45:59 am
Well, letís try it.

vote: MiX

See, it's this kind of thing that makes me want to lynch e.

Any whim is acceptable other than e.

e is off limits.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Debatepro on June 10, 2019, 08:50:33 am
VT, not worst vote today. Would have preferred to draw the night kill. Good luck Town.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Uncleeurope on June 10, 2019, 08:55:38 am
Okay, I'm peacing out mentally from this, now. If you guys want to lynch pubby/debate/e/me/anyone, I won't stop you.

I will be back in maybe half an hour to check on things.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: MiX on June 10, 2019, 09:03:40 am
VT, not worst vote today. Would have preferred to draw the night kill. Good luck Town.

Hmmmmm that's probably the safest traitor claim.

Did we hammer yet?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Glooble on June 10, 2019, 09:07:29 am
VT, not worst vote today. Would have preferred to draw the night kill. Good luck Town.

Hmmmmm that's probably the safest traitor claim.

Did we hammer yet?


No, we got further from hammering.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Uncleeurope on June 10, 2019, 09:08:02 am
Vote: MiX
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: jotheonah on June 10, 2019, 09:17:28 am
Yeah, thereís not enough time Eddie. Letís go back to vote: debate
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Debatepro on June 10, 2019, 09:28:46 am
vote: MiX

Keep an eye on SS, very similar to Philosophers.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Uncleeurope on June 10, 2019, 09:31:32 am
Yeah, thereís not enough time Eddie. Letís go back to vote: debate

Debate is town.

Sigh...

Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: MiX on June 10, 2019, 09:35:44 am
vote: MiX

Keep an eye on SS, very similar to Philosophers.

I suppose I'll inherit this, since I'm pretty sure you're getting lynched today.

Yeah, thereís not enough time Eddie. Letís go back to vote: debate

Debate is town.

Sigh...



Do you want to no lynch? I don't.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: silverspawn on June 10, 2019, 09:38:58 am
vote: debate
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: MiX on June 10, 2019, 09:39:18 am
MiX's response to the pubby wagon jumped him up on my radar. I honestly wouldn't mind that terribly.

Why, because I was a bit late on talking about pubby? I suppose, but I didn't expect Glooble to push that case as much as he did.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: silverspawn on June 10, 2019, 09:47:12 am
ok let's lynch this guy. we only have 13 min left. everyone here vote for debatepro.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: MiX on June 10, 2019, 09:47:51 am
ok let's lynch this guy. we only have 13 min left. everyone here vote for debatepro.

Vote: Debatepro
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Glooble on June 10, 2019, 09:49:03 am
Was that the hammer?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: silverspawn on June 10, 2019, 09:51:46 am
I don't think so.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: jotheonah on June 10, 2019, 09:53:52 am
Well then we need a hammer in seven minutes. ... who's here? Can we make pubby happen?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: silverspawn on June 10, 2019, 09:54:16 am
Pretty sure it wasn't.

Come on people, you can't just be afk and let a no-lynch happen
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: jotheonah on June 10, 2019, 09:57:10 am
Unofficial vc

MiX (3): pingpongsam, Uncleeurope, debatepro
pubby (4): mcmcsalot, Glooble, gkrieg13, 2.71828.....
Debatepro (7): jotheonah, EFHW, MiX, pubby, ADK, Glooble, silverspawn

Not Voting (2): DatSwan, ashersky

[/quote]
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: jotheonah on June 10, 2019, 09:57:35 am
major FoS for Swan and ash, whose votes are nowhere
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Glooble on June 10, 2019, 09:57:41 am
No, I'm voting Debatepro.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: silverspawn on June 10, 2019, 09:57:48 am
PPS COME AND HAMMER
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Glooble on June 10, 2019, 09:58:07 am
Wait you have me voting twice bro.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: jotheonah on June 10, 2019, 09:58:22 am
Unofficial vc again because the last one got buried on the bottom of the page and also had 2 gloobles

MiX (3): pingpongsam, Uncleeurope, debatepro
pubby (3): mcmcsalot, gkrieg13, 2.71828.....
Debatepro (7): jotheonah, EFHW, MiX, pubby, ADK, Glooble, silverspawn

Not Voting (2): DatSwan, ashersky
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Glooble on June 10, 2019, 09:58:54 am
C'mon ash.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Uncleeurope on June 10, 2019, 09:59:10 am
Ick ick ick ick ick ick ick

Vote: Debate
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: jotheonah on June 10, 2019, 10:00:03 am
if Eddie is scum here, this is a really over-the-top performance
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: jotheonah on June 10, 2019, 10:00:16 am
but thank you for hammering
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: silverspawn on June 10, 2019, 10:00:38 am
ok, good. When I counted it came out with 2 missing, but i trust that your vc is correct
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: A Drowned Kernel on June 10, 2019, 10:01:28 am
I think we should take a serious look at joth tomorrow
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: faust on June 10, 2019, 10:02:23 am
Day 1 Final Vote Count

MiX (2): pingpongsam, Debatepro
pubby (3): mcmcsalot, gkrieg13, 2.71828.....
Debatepro (8): EFHW, MiX, pubby, A Drowned Kernel, Glooble, jotheonah, silverspawn, Uncleeurope

Not Voting (2): DatSwan, ashersky

With 15 alive, it took 8 to lynch.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: faust on June 10, 2019, 10:33:33 am
Towards the end of the end of the 20th century, a motion picture has provided a fictional account of how the world might react to a scenario where an asteroid threatens life on Earth. IT turns out the when the scenario actually happened, things went a much more mundane path. The following records have been taken from NASA personal files.

November 18, 2018
The Asteroid Simulation and Analysis Project (ASAP) has been granted funding for 3 years to create the first ever large-scale simulation of asteroid movement within the main asteroid belt of the solar system. Of course, this massive task would require at least 10 years, but we'll try and make the best of it.

April 07, 2019
Finished incorporating all data from section ER-358.

June 17, 2019
Finished data from section ER-344. Seems that we have some instability in our simulation.

July 30, 2019
Modified our model somewhat, now the asteroid belt remains mostly stable. There is still an instable object, hopefully can be fixed by feeding more accurate data into the system.

September 3, 2019
No matter how much more detail is added, it still seems that asteroid 200458 breaks out and takes a course straight towards Earth. Needs further investigation

December 14, 2019
All further tests and simulations show the same thing. We have decided to inform the government.

January 5, 2020
Found that a small nuclear explosion targeting 200458 would be enough to change its course away from collision course. This discovery has been amazing! We shouldn't have problems securing the rest of the funding for ASAP.


Debatepro has been lynched! They were Asteroid Collision, a Vanilla Townie!

Thread locked!

Night 1 begins now and lasts until June 12, 2019, 10:30:00 am. Night actions due within 36 hours.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: faust on June 12, 2019, 10:07:19 am
Newspaper article, The Guardian, retrieved October 17, 2026

Seattle under quarantine after virus outbreak

President declares unlimited national state of emergency as remaining population of city walled in with infected

The quarantine walls around Seattle have finished construction, according to military operatives. This follows the outbreak of a deadly virus in the city that, due to its ability to seize control of the muscular functions of those infected has quickly been dubbed the "zombie virus". According to the Center of Disease Control, approximately 15 000 healthy individuals are suspected to remain within the quarantine zone.

Speaking at a press conference, Vice President Ocasio-Cortez said that the decision to seal in uninfected US citizens to prevent a further spread of the disease was "the hardest choice any politician could possibly face". She advised the population of Seattle to make their way to one of the 4 checkpoints, where they would be examined and released if they do not carry the virus. Meanwhile, President Warren undergoes continued treatment at a specialized facility of undisclosed location after coming in contact with the virus.

[...]

Church officials continue to refuse comments on the situation. Within the first days of the outbreak becoming public, in a rare joint statement many Christian churches had proclaimed that "the final days are upon us" and urged the faithful to make their way "Seattle, the city of salvation". In the weeks since, approximately 32% of registered members have left those churches. The Pope has withdrawn do his chambers in the Vatican for silent contemplation.


A Drowned Kernel has been killed! They were the Zombie Apocalypse, the Vanilla Cop!

Uncleeurope has been killed! They were Theonomy, the Vanilla Townie!

Day 2 begins!


Vote Count 2.0

Not Voting (12): Glooble, MiX, DatSwan, jotheonah, pingpongsam, mcmcsalot, EFHW, 2.71828....., ashersky, gkrieg13, pubby, silverspawn

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch. Day 2 ends on June 19, 2019, 10:10:00 am.

Thread unlocked!
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Night 1)
Post by: EFHW on June 12, 2019, 10:16:50 am
I'm confused. Vanilla cop was a scum role.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Night 1)
Post by: MiX on June 12, 2019, 10:18:10 am
I'm confused. Vanilla cop was a scum role.

It's also a town role.

Didn't have a lot of time to reread, finals and all. Hmm, poor debatepro I guess.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Night 1)
Post by: gkrieg13 on June 12, 2019, 10:21:43 am
I'm confused. Vanilla cop was a scum role.

Itís not only a town role, itís the town role that tells us nothing
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Night 1)
Post by: ashersky on June 12, 2019, 10:23:40 am
I'm confused. Vanilla cop was a scum role.

Itís not only a town role, itís the town role that tells us nothing

Isn't it a town role that tells us if someone is a PR or not?  I mean, that's not nothing.  It just isn't helpful for town, unless it's confirming/countering a VT claim at some point.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Night 1)
Post by: ashersky on June 12, 2019, 10:24:27 am
I'm confused. Vanilla cop was a scum role.

It's also a town role.

Didn't have a lot of time to reread, finals and all. Hmm, poor debatepro I guess.

You were second on the wagon.  Your sympathy sounds fake.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Night 1)
Post by: Glooble on June 12, 2019, 10:28:30 am
I'm confused. Vanilla cop was a scum role.

Itís not only a town role, itís the town role that tells us nothing

Isn't it a town role that tells us if someone is a PR or not?  I mean, that's not nothing.  It just isn't helpful for town, unless it's confirming/countering a VT claim at some point.

I think gkrieg meant its the only town power role (other than neighbor) that's always in the game regardless of what choices the scum team makes. So unfortunately this flip doesn't tell us, say, that scum chose at least one modification, as most other town PR flips would have.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Night 1)
Post by: ashersky on June 12, 2019, 10:30:43 am
I'm confused. Vanilla cop was a scum role.

Itís not only a town role, itís the town role that tells us nothing

Isn't it a town role that tells us if someone is a PR or not?  I mean, that's not nothing.  It just isn't helpful for town, unless it's confirming/countering a VT claim at some point.

I think gkrieg meant its the only town power role (other than neighbor) that's always in the game regardless of what choices the scum team makes. So unfortunately this flip doesn't tell us, say, that scum chose at least one modification, as most other town PR flips would have.

That makes sense.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Night 1)
Post by: EFHW on June 12, 2019, 11:02:53 am
I'm confused. Vanilla cop was a scum role.

It's also a town role.
Right, forgot to check the starting lineup.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Night 1)
Post by: jotheonah on June 12, 2019, 11:06:53 am
So this means probably no SK, as one kill is from the neighborhood and the other is from scum. Unless the SK got blocked somehow or happened to target the same person as one of the others.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Night 1)
Post by: EFHW on June 12, 2019, 11:09:28 am
So this means probably no SK, as one kill is from the neighborhood and the other is from scum. Unless the SK got blocked somehow or happened to target the same person as one of the others.
Which third party role would you pick?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Night 1)
Post by: gkrieg13 on June 12, 2019, 11:13:27 am
Not sure how I feel about neighborhood claiming, but definitely if there are 4 neighbors I think they should claim, as four neighbors definitely means scum is in the neighborhood.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Night 1)
Post by: jotheonah on June 12, 2019, 11:15:05 am
Eddy is a weird kill choice, given his role in the debatepro lynch. I would have kept him around as a good mislynch. Did he have any strong scumreads? We should look closely at them...

So this means probably no SK, as one kill is from the neighborhood and the other is from scum. Unless the SK got blocked somehow or happened to target the same person as one of the others.
Which third party role would you pick?

Probably the serial killer.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Night 1)
Post by: jotheonah on June 12, 2019, 11:16:28 am
Not sure how I feel about neighborhood claiming, but definitely if there are 4 neighbors I think they should claim, as four neighbors definitely means scum is in the neighborhood.

More accurately, it means non-town is in the neighhborhood. Three town and a Bodyguarded Neighbor Survivor third party is also possible.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Night 1)
Post by: jotheonah on June 12, 2019, 11:18:19 am
Not sure how I feel about neighborhood claiming, but definitely if there are 4 neighbors I think they should claim, as four neighbors definitely means scum is in the neighborhood.

More accurately, it means non-town is in the neighhborhood. Three town and a Bodyguarded Neighbor Survivor third party is also possible.

Oh wait, no it's not. Removes Neighbor from town list.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Night 1)
Post by: MiX on June 12, 2019, 11:18:37 am
Not sure how I feel about neighborhood claiming, but definitely if there are 4 neighbors I think they should claim, as four neighbors definitely means scum is in the neighborhood.

More accurately, it means non-town is in the neighhborhood. Three town and a Bodyguarded Neighbor Survivor third party is also possible.

Is it? Look closer.

So this means probably no SK, as one kill is from the neighborhood and the other is from scum. Unless the SK got blocked somehow or happened to target the same person as one of the others.
Which third party role would you pick?

Such a fun question: I would be super tempted to pick SK as well, but hopefully I wouldn't given the reputation I got last time...

PPE: There you go.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Night 1)
Post by: jotheonah on June 12, 2019, 11:20:00 am
So I agree, a 4-person neighborhood should claim here. Would love a 1/4 chance of hitting scum.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Night 1)
Post by: Glooble on June 12, 2019, 11:20:29 am
Eddy is a weird kill choice, given his role in the debatepro lynch. I would have kept him around as a good mislynch. Did he have any strong scumreads? We should look closely at them...


e. He really wanted to lynch e. But I'm reasonably sure Eddie was the vig kill and ADK was the scum kill.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Night 1)
Post by: MiX on June 12, 2019, 11:22:10 am
So I agree, a 4-person neighborhood should claim here. Would love a 1/4 chance of hitting scum.

We have higher chances outsider this group. This is a fun setup.

Eddy is a weird kill choice, given his role in the debatepro lynch. I would have kept him around as a good mislynch. Did he have any strong scumreads? We should look closely at them...


e. He really wanted to lynch e. But I'm reasonably sure Eddie was the vig kill and ADK was the scum kill.

I disagree completely, I think it's almost obvious it's the contrary.

Vote: Glooble because why not.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Night 1)
Post by: gkrieg13 on June 12, 2019, 11:24:12 am
So I agree, a 4-person neighborhood should claim here. Would love a 1/4 chance of hitting scum.

We have higher chances outsider this group. This is a fun setup.


True, but it still gives us a good split of groups we can think about.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Night 1)
Post by: gkrieg13 on June 12, 2019, 11:25:10 am
So I agree, a 4-person neighborhood should claim here. Would love a 1/4 chance of hitting scum.

We have higher chances outsider this group. This is a fun setup.

Eddy is a weird kill choice, given his role in the debatepro lynch. I would have kept him around as a good mislynch. Did he have any strong scumreads? We should look closely at them...


e. He really wanted to lynch e. But I'm reasonably sure Eddie was the vig kill and ADK was the scum kill.

I disagree completely, I think it's almost obvious it's the contrary.

Vote: Glooble because why not.

Haha, didn't even read the second half of the quote. Why do you think Eddie was killed by scum? His D1 EoD is very scummy.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Night 1)
Post by: Glooble on June 12, 2019, 11:25:52 am
So I agree, a 4-person neighborhood should claim here. Would love a 1/4 chance of hitting scum.

We have higher chances outsider this group. This is a fun setup.

Eddy is a weird kill choice, given his role in the debatepro lynch. I would have kept him around as a good mislynch. Did he have any strong scumreads? We should look closely at them...


e. He really wanted to lynch e. But I'm reasonably sure Eddie was the vig kill and ADK was the scum kill.

I disagree completely, I think it's almost obvious it's the contrary.

Vote: Glooble because why not.

Why do you think the contrary is obvious?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Night 1)
Post by: MiX on June 12, 2019, 11:27:10 am
So I agree, a 4-person neighborhood should claim here. Would love a 1/4 chance of hitting scum.

We have higher chances outsider this group. This is a fun setup.


True, but it still gives us a good split of groups we can think about.

Agreed, it's a really good thing to reveal, but we should lynch outside of it.

PPE 2: Because I think Uncle was very very very very towny.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Night 1)
Post by: gkrieg13 on June 12, 2019, 11:27:32 am
I think I asked Glooble about joth, but what does joth think about Glooble this game?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Night 1)
Post by: Glooble on June 12, 2019, 11:32:36 am

PPE 2: Because I think Uncle was very very very very towny.

And you don't think ADK was?

Now that I think about it, I don't think anyone raised much suspicion on either of them Day 1. I'd have to read back to be sure.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Night 1)
Post by: Glooble on June 12, 2019, 11:35:12 am
Eddy is a weird kill choice, given his role in the debatepro lynch. I would have kept him around as a good mislynch. Did he have any strong scumreads? We should look closely at them...


FOS: joth.

ADK's last post was this:

I think we should take a serious look at joth tomorrow

Trying to shift discussion to the *other* nightkill's scumreads when one nightkill's top scumread is very obviously you is hella suspicious.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Night 1)
Post by: MiX on June 12, 2019, 11:36:34 am

PPE 2: Because I think Uncle was very very very very towny.

And you don't think ADK was?

Now that I think about it, I don't think anyone raised much suspicion on either of them Day 1. I'd have to read back to be sure.

ADK is also a weird read, but all we know there's only 1 neighbor and they were scumreading ADK. But okay I suppose there's people who didn't like Uncle's D1 EoD so both are possible. If that's true then it's sad...

Okay both are possible but I have to agree that it makes more sense that ADK was the NK.

PPE: I think it's both Glooble and joth here.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Night 1)
Post by: jotheonah on June 12, 2019, 11:37:55 am
I think I asked Glooble about joth, but what does joth think about Glooble this game?

I think he's towny. Or I did until the post he just made.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Night 1)
Post by: jotheonah on June 12, 2019, 11:39:02 am
Eddy is a weird kill choice, given his role in the debatepro lynch. I would have kept him around as a good mislynch. Did he have any strong scumreads? We should look closely at them...


FOS: joth.

ADK's last post was this:

I think we should take a serious look at joth tomorrow

Trying to shift discussion to the *other* nightkill's scumreads when one nightkill's top scumread is very obviously you is hella suspicious.

I assumed someone would bring that up eventually, but I thought bringing up proactively would be read as scummy. Guess it's a damned-if-you-do-damned-if-you-don't kind of a thing? Anyway, ADK was town and also wrong about me. A thing that happens all the time.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Night 1)
Post by: jotheonah on June 12, 2019, 11:39:56 am
The other benefit of a neighborclaim is that they can tell us which kill was whose.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Night 1)
Post by: Glooble on June 12, 2019, 11:41:21 am
I think I asked Glooble about joth, but what does joth think about Glooble this game?

I think he's towny. Or I did until the post he just made.


What exactly was it about that post that changed your read on me?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Night 1)
Post by: jotheonah on June 12, 2019, 11:42:41 am
I think I asked Glooble about joth, but what does joth think about Glooble this game?

I think he's towny. Or I did until the post he just made.


What exactly was it about that post that changed your read on me?

Nothing. It was a joke. I still think you're town. But that thing you said about switching focus was quite a stretch.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: MiX on June 12, 2019, 11:44:13 am
Well, letís try it.

vote: MiX

Yeah, thereís not enough time Eddie. Letís go back to vote: debate

This was a waste of time that made you not look like the first person on board debate's wagon.

The rest of this day will be me switching votes between Glooble and joth.

Vote: joth
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: jotheonah on June 12, 2019, 11:46:11 am
Well, letís try it.

vote: MiX

Yeah, thereís not enough time Eddie. Letís go back to vote: debate

This was a waste of time that made you not look like the first person on board debate's wagon.

The rest of this day will be me switching votes between Glooble and joth.

Vote: joth

That was me sincerely trying to get you lynched, but everybody was asleep and it almost cost us the debate lynch. But I guess if we're gonna do this we might as well do this.

vote: MiX
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Night 1)
Post by: gkrieg13 on June 12, 2019, 11:46:29 am

PPE: I think it's both Glooble and joth here.

Interesting, why?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Night 1)
Post by: jotheonah on June 12, 2019, 11:47:01 am
I feel like there's a good chance MiX came into the scum QT with "my meta is basically endlessly fighting with joth even when we're both town, so I'm gonna hard commit to that"
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: gkrieg13 on June 12, 2019, 11:47:29 am
Well, letís try it.

vote: MiX

Yeah, thereís not enough time Eddie. Letís go back to vote: debate

This was a waste of time that made you not look like the first person on board debate's wagon.

The rest of this day will be me switching votes between Glooble and joth.

Vote: joth

That was me sincerely trying to get you lynched, but everybody was asleep and it almost cost us the debate lynch. But I guess if we're gonna do this we might as well do this.

vote: MiX

This is a scummy vote.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Night 1)
Post by: MiX on June 12, 2019, 11:48:25 am

PPE: I think it's both Glooble and joth here.

Interesting, why?

Haven't reread much but my scumread on joth still hasn't faded. Glooble mostly because I read twin interactions as scummy.

I feel like there's a good chance MiX came into the scum QT with "my meta is basically endlessly fighting with joth even when we're both town, so I'm gonna hard commit to that"

You have a real scum game of me, you can see what I think and act...and it's not this.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Night 1)
Post by: pubby on June 12, 2019, 12:31:05 pm
I wonder if e is a neighbor and prompted the kill on eddie.

vote: joth

Not changing my vote, etc etc. Should have stuck with my gut.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Night 1)
Post by: gkrieg13 on June 12, 2019, 12:51:09 pm
I wonder if e is a neighbor and prompted the kill on eddie.

? Why?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: jotheonah on June 12, 2019, 01:26:00 pm
Well, letís try it.

vote: MiX

Yeah, thereís not enough time Eddie. Letís go back to vote: debate

This was a waste of time that made you not look like the first person on board debate's wagon.

The rest of this day will be me switching votes between Glooble and joth.

Vote: joth

That was me sincerely trying to get you lynched, but everybody was asleep and it almost cost us the debate lynch. But I guess if we're gonna do this we might as well do this.

vote: MiX

This is a scummy vote.

You're a scummy vote. I'm just really tired of this me and MiX thing. It feels really played out. He scumreads me for no reason. I scumread him for no reason. We both recognize it but we do it anyway. It feels like it's every game that we play together. And then there's pubby who's literal only contribution to the game has been to pop in once a day and say how scummy I am.

Honestly, that doesn't make either of them scum. It probably makes them annoying town. But I'm just so tired of being scumread no matter what I do, especially by the same people. It would be one thing if anyone had posted anything resembling a case on me, but nope.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Night 1)
Post by: jotheonah on June 12, 2019, 01:26:14 pm
unvote I guess
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Night 1)
Post by: MiX on June 12, 2019, 01:44:43 pm
Unvote
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Night 1)
Post by: MiX on June 12, 2019, 01:49:00 pm
As with the last game, that post proved that this is town!joth, which is something that had been building up all through D1. Less sure of it because I already said how I read him, but I still think scum!joth would be different, after all he's not perfect, right?

Vote: e for my next bogus scumread.

One day I'll do a VCA. One day.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Night 1)
Post by: silverspawn on June 12, 2019, 02:58:29 pm
ugh @flips

so, is there any reason why we shouldn't have a neighborhood claim?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Night 1)
Post by: MiX on June 12, 2019, 03:00:54 pm
ugh @flips

so, is there any reason why we shouldn't have a neighborhood claim?

Any reason we should?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Night 1)
Post by: silverspawn on June 12, 2019, 03:08:29 pm
ugh @flips

so, is there any reason why we shouldn't have a neighborhood claim?

Any reason we should?

um... yeah. if there's just one neighbor, they're an IC. if there's just two neighbors and one of them flips scum, the other is an IC. etc. We get a set of players with at most one scum in it. That's big.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Night 1)
Post by: Glooble on June 12, 2019, 03:11:07 pm
ugh @flips

so, is there any reason why we shouldn't have a neighborhood claim?

Any reason we should?

um... yeah. if there's just one neighbor, they're an IC. if there's just two neighbors and one of them flips scum, the other is an IC. etc. We get a set of players with at most one scum in it. That's big.

Also it gives us some insight into how many PRs scum might have.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Night 1)
Post by: silverspawn on June 12, 2019, 03:15:25 pm
And I don't think there's a downside. It just seems obvious that the neighbors claim day 2 in this setup. But I want everyone to be able to point out what I'm missing if I'm missing something before  we do it.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on June 12, 2019, 03:54:37 pm
I'm pro-neighbor claim but here's my caveat: One neighbor should claim, and say how many neighbors there are, first. I don't think there's necessarily a reason to out the whole neighborhood at once, especially because it does improve scum's POE for other power roles, which might be powerful.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: silverspawn on June 12, 2019, 04:31:38 pm
Mh.

If there is one neighbor, it doesn't make a difference.

If there are two, I think that's a bad idea, because then if the claimed person dies, we don't know who the other (scum?) is

If it's three of four, it seems like a good idea.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: EFHW on June 12, 2019, 04:35:48 pm
It seems to me extremely likely that scum would have chosen the neighbor option. Does anyone have a narrative where they might not have?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: MiX on June 12, 2019, 04:39:08 pm
It seems to me extremely likely that scum would have chosen the neighbor option. Does anyone have a narrative where they might not have?

Scum that want to play around that? It would be one of my first choices, but not as automatic as, say, traitor knows mafia.

I really like the claim by the way, good arguments.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: gkrieg13 on June 12, 2019, 05:18:06 pm
It seems to me extremely likely that scum would have chosen the neighbor option. Does anyone have a narrative where they might not have?

It would have been my first choice.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: DatSwan on June 12, 2019, 05:25:11 pm
@ Neighbor Claim:

1 Neighbor - They should prob claim, we get an IC, and skum is forced to kill them off instead of PR hunting... i think that is a good play.

4 Neighbors - I doubt if there were 4 we would still be having this convo, they obviously would know a skum is in the hood, and because of that skum knows who is in the hood, so all it does is give town POV plus and then of course when we find that skum the other members are IC.

2-3 Neighbors - This is tricky. Either option gives the possibilities of [all town, town and skum] with the additional possibility of [town and survivor, or town skum survivor]. If skum is in the hood, then they have all the info... so a claim tells them nothing but helps town. If skum is not in the hood then they donít have the info and it just helps them iso their kill selection at night.

All of that is fairly easily calculated - the important part is this:
If there are 2-3 members in the hood, and they claim, we have no idea if they are all town, or if not, which one is skum. I just donít know if the risk/reward is there for the claim.

Like, letís say there are 3. They claim. What do we do? Leave them alone or start lynching them? If skum is in there then it could be a good idea, but if skum is not on there, they just learned 3 people that donít have PRs. If we decide to start lynching them we could just be throwing the game right there if they are all town.


TLDR; it all comes down to how likely we think it is that skum picked to be in the pool. When skum was choosing roles they MUST OF considered that choosing to be in the hood would put them in a potential situation where they are being hunted for based on a claim (or if there were 4 in hood)... makes me feel like it is far fetched to say ďthey for sure picked itĒ.

If there was 1 or 4 we would either already know, or we will know soon i assume.
If there are 2-3, for reasons best not discussed at this time, i do not think they should claim today.

Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: DatSwan on June 12, 2019, 05:27:06 pm
Also, in specific regard to this neighbor claim - we generally view the possibility of a survivor as town right? Real question - pretty unfamiliar with that role.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: MiX on June 12, 2019, 05:28:37 pm
Also, in specific regard to this neighbor claim - we generally view the possibility of a survivor as town right? Real question - pretty unfamiliar with that role.

If they wanted to be scum they would pick traitor, so as of right now I'm assuming they think town has better odds of winning. Regardless we should assume the worst, and that's traitor, and given we need to kill scum I'm fine with letting survivor pass if scum neighbor flips.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: silverspawn on June 12, 2019, 06:05:20 pm
I don't think it's obvious that scum would choose neighbor, and I don't think that it's obvious that a large or small neighborhood is less or more useful. They're all really good. Having a set of people where you know how many scum are in there is really really good. Say they're four. If we find the scum among them, we create 3 ICs just like that.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: DatSwan on June 12, 2019, 06:35:01 pm
I don't think it's obvious that scum would choose neighbor, and I don't think that it's obvious that a large or small neighborhood is less or more useful. They're all really good. Having a set of people where you know how many scum are in there is really really good. Say they're four. If we find the scum among them, we create 3 ICs just like that.

Right - if there is 1 or 4 they should claim. 2-3 is the part i have an issue with
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: silverspawn on June 12, 2019, 07:09:06 pm
If 3 or 4 are still alive, we can delay the claim one day. But let's not risk not having it.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: MiX on June 12, 2019, 07:11:09 pm
If 3 or 4 are still alive, we can delay the claim one day. But let's not risk not having it.

How could you risk not having it? There's no way all neighbors die at the same time.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: silverspawn on June 12, 2019, 07:14:14 pm
If two are alive now, one scum and one town, and the town gets NKd, we risk not having it, because the scum would just not claim. That's why we should only claim if 3 or 4 are still alive right now: as you said, we won't have two deaths at the same time, and there is at most one scum. So if 3 are still alive today, then at least 1 town is still alive tomorrow
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: silverspawn on June 12, 2019, 07:14:47 pm
EBWOP:

If two are alive now, one scum and one town, and the town gets NKd, we risk not having it, because the scum would just not claim. That's why we should only delay the claim if 3 or 4 are still alive right now: as you said, we won't have two deaths at the same time, and there is at most one scum. So if 3 are still alive today, then at least 1 town is still alive tomorrow
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: 2.71828..... on June 13, 2019, 12:19:52 am
@ Neighbor Claim:

1 Neighbor - They should prob claim, we get an IC, and skum is forced to kill them off instead of PR hunting... i think that is a good play.

4 Neighbors - I doubt if there were 4 we would still be having this convo, they obviously would know a skum is in the hood, and because of that skum knows who is in the hood, so all it does is give town POV plus and then of course when we find that skum the other members are IC.

2-3 Neighbors - This is tricky. Either option gives the possibilities of [all town, town and skum] with the additional possibility of [town and survivor, or town skum survivor]. If skum is in the hood, then they have all the info... so a claim tells them nothing but helps town. If skum is not in the hood then they donít have the info and it just helps them iso their kill selection at night.

All of that is fairly easily calculated - the important part is this:
If there are 2-3 members in the hood, and they claim, we have no idea if they are all town, or if not, which one is skum. I just donít know if the risk/reward is there for the claim.

Like, letís say there are 3. They claim. What do we do? Leave them alone or start lynching them? If skum is in there then it could be a good idea, but if skum is not on there, they just learned 3 people that donít have PRs. If we decide to start lynching them we could just be throwing the game right there if they are all town.


TLDR; it all comes down to how likely we think it is that skum picked to be in the pool. When skum was choosing roles they MUST OF considered that choosing to be in the hood would put them in a potential situation where they are being hunted for based on a claim (or if there were 4 in hood)... makes me feel like it is far fetched to say ďthey for sure picked itĒ.

If there was 1 or 4 we would either already know, or we will know soon i assume.
If there are 2-3, for reasons best not discussed at this time, i do not think they should claim today.

I think this is a pretty good summary and also points to why we shouldn't "force the neighborhood to claim"

I think members of the neighborhood should claim if something significant happened in that neighborhood that could help us catch scum, but if not there is no reason to claim. And I trust each player in the game is able to do that if they were in the neighborhood.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: 2.71828..... on June 13, 2019, 12:21:08 am
Sorry I want around much D1, dropping off my in laws at the airport this morning which should help getting into D2 a lot better
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: faust on June 13, 2019, 02:46:21 am
Vote Count 2.1

jotheonah (1): pubby
2.71828..... (1): MiX

Not Voting (10): Glooble, DatSwan, pingpongsam, mcmcsalot, EFHW, 2.71828....., ashersky, gkrieg13, silverspawn, jotheonah

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch. Day 2 ends on June 19, 2019, 10:10:00 am.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: DatSwan on June 13, 2019, 03:17:58 am
OK I have done my Day 1 VCA and it is unfortunately lame. The end of the day has some points for now, but that is about it:

This is VC 1.9:

MiX (1): pingpongsam
jotheonah (2): pubby, A Drowned Kernel
pubby (7): silverspawn, mcmcsalot, Glooble, MiX, gkrieg13, Debatepro, 2.71828.....
Deatepro (3): jotheonah, EFHW, Uncleeurope

Not Voting (2): DatSwan, ashersky

- OK so I am *assuming* there is a traitor that knows who skum is.
-Pubby gets run up to L1. We know that the L2 player is town (Debate).
- The unknown player who put it at L1 (E!) *probably*would not of done that if they could of moved to Town!Debate instead if pubby is mafia.
- So at the minimum, E! kind of cannot be traitor if Pubby is Skum, and E!Pubby is most likely not a thing. It could be Skum vs Town and it could be Town vs Town, but those are kind of the only two options.
- I am leaning on the town side of things for E! right now, so that makes me want to look at [silverspawn, mcmcsalot, Glooble, MiX, gkrieg13] in this grouping.


Fast forwarding slightly, we get to the final vote count of:

MiX (3): pingpongsam, debatepro
pubby (3): mcmcsalot, gkrieg13, 2.71828.....
Debatepro (8): jotheonah, EFHW, MiX, pubby, ADK, Glooble, silverspawn, Uncleeurope

Not Voting (2): DatSwan, ashersky

That is 6 unknowns and 2 town on a town lynch.

Reading back, the people I want to be suspicious of are either in the start of the wagon [Joth EFHW MiX], all of which I am leaning townish on right now.
Then at the end of the wagon [Glooble, SS].

The people that match with the Pubby wagon logic are [Glooble, SS, MiX].

Anyone have any thoughts on that?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: ashersky on June 13, 2019, 04:33:51 am
Thereís no such thing as a bad MiX lynch.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: pingpongsam on June 13, 2019, 07:36:31 am
I wish previous day votes were persistent so I didnít have to bother with Vote: MiX.

I just spent the night in Reagan National in DC thanks to my connecting flight being late af. This is probably as close to drunk as I can get since I donít drink. AMA. Flight boards in 20 minutes.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: EFHW on June 13, 2019, 07:46:11 am
Which third party role would you pick?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: pingpongsam on June 13, 2019, 07:50:29 am
Which third party role would you pick?

 I didnít read much of the setup. It looked hard so I skipped it. But Iíll take a look at the options now and throw a dart at one for you.

Okay, so if I had to pick Iíd go with rolestopper, which I guess is the same as roleblocker? But if I didnít have to pick then I just wouldnít so I can watch everyone wallow in WIFOM when in reality itís just a standard deck weíre dealt.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: silverspawn on June 13, 2019, 08:19:14 am
I would have definitely picked either the tracker guy who wants all PRs dead or the neighborhood guy.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: MiX on June 13, 2019, 08:29:45 am
Which third party role would you pick?

 I didnít read much of the setup. It looked hard so I skipped it. But Iíll take a look at the options now and throw a dart at one for you.

Okay, so if I had to pick Iíd go with rolestopper, which I guess is the same as roleblocker? But if I didnít have to pick then I just wouldnít so I can watch everyone wallow in WIFOM when in reality itís just a standard deck weíre dealt.

So is this a towntell from pps? Regardless I don't think he can be third-party.

Thereís no such thing as a bad MiX lynch.

Why do you think I'm scum?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on June 13, 2019, 08:36:05 am
pps I'm sorry hanging out didn't work out, crazy week for me, but I hope my fair city treated you well. Maybe next time!

Everybody's suddenly voting MiX now and I just said I wouldn't. :/

I'm V/LA all weekend, including Friday -- heading to the Berkshires for a wedding and not planning to be online throughout that time. I'll try to do a reread and plant a vote today or tonight.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Glooble on June 13, 2019, 08:56:38 am
Tracker reporter seemed like the obvious choice to me, just because power roles tend to die before the game ends anyway.

But then I realized you still would have to survive a lot of lynches and a lot of nightkills, which can be a tricky balance (if you're towny enough not to get lynched, you're towny enough for scum to kill you.) So probably better to take neighbor survivor, where at least you have a buffer against half of the equation.

Anyway, what exactly is the point of this line of questioning?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: ashersky on June 13, 2019, 09:01:39 am

Thereís no such thing as a bad MiX lynch.

Why do you think I'm scum?

I don't think you are town.  I think because you aren't towny in general, so it's hard to think of you as town.

This game, your odd stances on voting certain players throws me off, because willy nilly stuff like that is generally anti-town.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: ashersky on June 13, 2019, 09:04:30 am
I'm surprised at people's thinking on third party choices.  If you want to win (regardless of fun), you don't go it alone.  SK/Survivor is hard.

You have to choose to join the mafia, making a 5-player team.  Even unknown, that's just a huge boon and a difficult situation for town.  I mean, maybe you could go survivor and claim?  If Neighbors stay hidden, Mafia have to decide whether to shoot you to kill neighbors or not.  But just being a traitor seems like the best move.

Again, that is if you choose based on wanting to win.  If you choose for fun or personal preference, there's no real rhyme or reason that matters.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: ashersky on June 13, 2019, 09:07:10 am
Some quick reads:

PPS is towny, 2.7 is towny, joth feels towny, which might mean something different.
Glooble sits firmly in the safe zone of null.
MiX is scummy for not being towny.  Faust is scummy for not being NKed N1. 
SS feels scummy, which probably means he's town.
I like Dat's effort.  EFHW taking on the faust inquisitor role is fine. 

Wake up vote: mom salon
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on June 13, 2019, 09:24:55 am
Ashersky and Datswan, where were you yesterday? If you knew you wouldnít be online before deadline, why didnít you plant your vote somewhere, anywhere, before you checked out?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: ashersky on June 13, 2019, 09:31:47 am
Ashersky and Datswan, where were you yesterday? If you knew you wouldnít be online before deadline, why didnít you plant your vote somewhere, anywhere, before you checked out?

My bad there.  I came to the forum four minutes after deadline.

I don't know why I don't vote very much.  That mcmc vote might be my first of the game.  Since I came back after my long break, I've been reticent to overuse my votes. 

As for D1, that was just my mistake on timing.  Time zones are hard, I guess.  IRL as well.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: MiX on June 13, 2019, 09:35:38 am
Definitely agreed that faust is scum, but without a mod I don't think town can win... Jokes aside I agree with ash's read list almost completely.

Vote: Glooble, FoS: mcmc
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: EFHW on June 13, 2019, 09:51:44 am
Tracker reporter seemed like the obvious choice to me, just because power roles tend to die before the game ends anyway.

But then I realized you still would have to survive a lot of lynches and a lot of nightkills, which can be a tricky balance (if you're towny enough not to get lynched, you're towny enough for scum to kill you.) So probably better to take neighbor survivor, where at least you have a buffer against half of the equation.

Anyway, what exactly is the point of this line of questioning?

Is it bothering you?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: mcmcsalot on June 13, 2019, 09:56:40 am
I promise Iíll reread soon. Super super sorry
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Glooble on June 13, 2019, 09:58:23 am
Tracker reporter seemed like the obvious choice to me, just because power roles tend to die before the game ends anyway.

But then I realized you still would have to survive a lot of lynches and a lot of nightkills, which can be a tricky balance (if you're towny enough not to get lynched, you're towny enough for scum to kill you.) So probably better to take neighbor survivor, where at least you have a buffer against half of the equation.

Anyway, what exactly is the point of this line of questioning?

Is it bothering you?

Not particularly. I don't think it's harmful to speculate about, but I'm also having a hard time seeing the benefit.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on June 13, 2019, 10:55:22 am
Ok, I give up. vote: MiX

I think I figured out what's bugging me about MiX this game. He's totally spineless, just doing whatever he can to get people to like him! I posted that whole stupid appeal to emotion thing (which was completely legit, but objectively kind of BS) and he responded by unvoting me. Well, if he was really scumreading me, why would he do that? And then just now ash posts a list and it's "I agree completely".

I mean, his first vote is to join the wagon on himself! How much more of a people-pleaser can you be?

Day 1 he hands out a lot of town passes, and votes for people, but then backs off as soon as they respond (random example:
Why am I scummier than EFHW?

You explained a point that didn't have to be explained further, and in fact I think it was anti-town to explain it. EFHW left it more in the wind.

On the other hand you're town now and EFHW's scummier still, so maybe I was wrong.

Vote: ss
)

Later on in the day, he does start to actually commit to reads/votes after a little pushback, mainly on Debate and on me. Maybe those are wagons he's concluded will be reasonably popular? Maybe being on my case is a "freebie" given our weird meta?

But overall, MiX this game seems not just fickle and vote jumpy (which is par for the course for MiX) but fickle, vote jumpy, and people-pleasy, which could just be MiX trying to adapt to the fact that he's often scumread erroneously (like me!) but I find that adaptation more likely from scum!MiX (or Survivor/SK!MiX). Backing off of people as soon as they pushback seems like the strategy of someone who values staying alive over lynching scum.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: MiX on June 13, 2019, 11:44:08 am
I had a post ready to defend myself, when I realized I only really get in the game if people vote for me. This probably means I deserve the votes.

My reads are a bit weak, I don't have good cases and I fall back on my votes too easily. That's a good case, right? What can I say, it's true.

Ash's readslist is really good, just disagree with his take on e and myself, oh and joth/ss are both town.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on June 13, 2019, 11:50:16 am
I had a post ready to defend myself, when I realized I only really get in the game if people vote for me. This probably means I deserve the votes.

My reads are a bit weak, I don't have good cases and I fall back on my votes too easily. That's a good case, right? What can I say, it's true.

Ash's readslist is really good, just disagree with his take on e and myself, oh and joth/ss are both town.

thanks for 100% proving my point I guess?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: MiX on June 13, 2019, 11:51:39 am
I had a post ready to defend myself, when I realized I only really get in the game if people vote for me. This probably means I deserve the votes.

My reads are a bit weak, I don't have good cases and I fall back on my votes too easily. That's a good case, right? What can I say, it's true.

Ash's readslist is really good, just disagree with his take on e and myself, oh and joth/ss are both town.

thanks for 100% proving my point I guess?

Am I pleasing people by being passive? I can see mcmc's anger for my passiveness from here, and surely others will say the same. I don't think I would make this post as scum, I would sooner say why I think Glooble's scum or something.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on June 13, 2019, 12:01:18 pm
I had a post ready to defend myself, when I realized I only really get in the game if people vote for me. This probably means I deserve the votes.

My reads are a bit weak, I don't have good cases and I fall back on my votes too easily. That's a good case, right? What can I say, it's true.

Ash's readslist is really good, just disagree with his take on e and myself, oh and joth/ss are both town.

thanks for 100% proving my point I guess?

Am I pleasing people by being passive? I can see mcmc's anger for my passiveness from here, and surely others will say the same. I don't think I would make this post as scum, I would sooner say why I think Glooble's scum or something.

I just accused you of basically agreeing with everything and then you basically agreed with me.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: 2.71828..... on June 13, 2019, 12:04:59 pm
I had a post ready to defend myself, when I realized I only really get in the game if people vote for me. This probably means I deserve the votes.

My reads are a bit weak, I don't have good cases and I fall back on my votes too easily. That's a good case, right? What can I say, it's true.

Ash's readslist is really good, just disagree with his take on e and myself, oh and joth/ss are both town.

I get that. Town on MiX.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: MiX on June 13, 2019, 12:05:31 pm
I had a post ready to defend myself, when I realized I only really get in the game if people vote for me. This probably means I deserve the votes.

My reads are a bit weak, I don't have good cases and I fall back on my votes too easily. That's a good case, right? What can I say, it's true.

Ash's readslist is really good, just disagree with his take on e and myself, oh and joth/ss are both town.

I get that. Town on MiX.

This makes me a little more null on e. Is that possible?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: MiX on June 13, 2019, 12:06:57 pm
I just accused you of basically agreeing with everything and then you basically agreed with me.

And town!me would do...what? Fight back, call you obv!scum, deny facts, provide an amazing case that I didn't provide earlier because I was waiting for someone to accuse me of being passive...no really what did you expect? Town!me has nothing to disprove what you said.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: 2.71828..... on June 13, 2019, 12:23:04 pm
I had a post ready to defend myself, when I realized I only really get in the game if people vote for me. This probably means I deserve the votes.

My reads are a bit weak, I don't have good cases and I fall back on my votes too easily. That's a good case, right? What can I say, it's true.

Ash's readslist is really good, just disagree with his take on e and myself, oh and joth/ss are both town.

I get that. Town on MiX.

This makes me a little more null on e. Is that possible?

More null than null?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: MiX on June 13, 2019, 12:28:15 pm
I had a post ready to defend myself, when I realized I only really get in the game if people vote for me. This probably means I deserve the votes.

My reads are a bit weak, I don't have good cases and I fall back on my votes too easily. That's a good case, right? What can I say, it's true.

Ash's readslist is really good, just disagree with his take on e and myself, oh and joth/ss are both town.

I get that. Town on MiX.

This makes me a little more null on e. Is that possible?

More null than null?

More null than scum. As in, I don't think what you said makes you townier, but I think you're less scum. So overall I don't know what to think of it. Still think you're scum, however, but I think Glooble's even more. Given there's at least 4 living scum I think PoE means one of you two have to be scum. I'll think about this in the weekend, after finals.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Glooble on June 13, 2019, 12:31:34 pm
One thing I've noticed this town in particular loves doing is saying "I think this person is scum" and then not laying down any kind of a case to back that up. We had pubby and joth, Eddie and e, and now MiX and me.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: MiX on June 13, 2019, 12:32:11 pm
One thing I've noticed this town in particular loves doing is saying "I think this person is scum" and then not laying down any kind of a case to back that up. We had pubby and joth, Eddie and e, and now MiX and me.

Wait, who do you think is scum?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Glooble on June 13, 2019, 12:38:39 pm
One thing I've noticed this town in particular loves doing is saying "I think this person is scum" and then not laying down any kind of a case to back that up. We had pubby and joth, Eddie and e, and now MiX and me.

Wait, who do you think is scum?


If I had a strong scum read, I would be voting for them.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: pubby on June 14, 2019, 12:39:17 am
I'd be fine voting for MiX actually. It rubbed me the wrong way how behaved around my joth vote. He was absolutely voting to please me and start a bandwagon - he said he'd vote with me before I even gave my reasoning (and it's not like the reasoning I gave was strong anyway). Funnily enough, he switches his vote to me almost immediately after once he realizes people would rather bandwagon vote me than joth.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Night 1)
Post by: pubby on June 14, 2019, 12:42:17 am
I wonder if e is a neighbor and prompted the kill on eddie.
? Why?
I'm trying to guess which player was scum-killed and which player was neighborhood-killed. I think ADK came off more towny yesterday, and Eddie came off more scummy, so maybe scum killed ADK and neighbors killed Eddie. And the player most likely to have a bone to pick with Eddie is e.

Don't think this matters much at all though :P
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: MiX on June 14, 2019, 02:57:24 am
I'd be fine voting for MiX actually. It rubbed me the wrong way how behaved around my joth vote. He was absolutely voting to please me and start a bandwagon - he said he'd vote with me before I even gave my reasoning (and it's not like the reasoning I gave was strong anyway). Funnily enough, he switches his vote to me almost immediately after once he realizes people would rather bandwagon vote me than joth.

Your case was good enough and it fit right in with the narrative I already had. Besides, a joth lynch would be better than what we did, which was to go after 2 new players that act scummy for reasons (haven't figured out yours yet).

I swapped for you just to see what would happen, I didn't mean for you to get lynched. It was a silly decision but I was extremely tired and I felt like impacting the game with my vote. For me it confirmed you're town, given how quickly you went to L-1.

Gut scum reads from chum to scum: joth (yeah, still can be, I don't know...), mcmc, E, Glooble. Just for future reference.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: silverspawn on June 14, 2019, 03:15:08 am
I totally forgot about who was scummy this game, but I'll get into it via a reread and then tell you make a wild guess about whether MiX is scummy or not.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: faust on June 14, 2019, 03:26:33 am
Vote Count 2.2

jotheonah (1): pubby
MiX (2): pingpongsam, jotheonah
mcmcsalot (1): ashersky
Glooble (1): MiX

Not Voting (7): Glooble, DatSwan, mcmcsalot, EFHW, 2.71828....., gkrieg13, silverspawn

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch. Day 2 ends on June 19, 2019, 10:10:00 am.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: DatSwan on June 14, 2019, 04:55:35 am
So, as I chose to do the VCA and then come up with the concept of looking into [MiX, Glooble, SS] I felt I should do some ISOs. BEWARE the wall posts to come. They have good info (or at least I think they do) but they are sadly disappointing.

One thing, inference, guess, whatever you want to call it, that I did take away from it - I have never done a VCA and not been able to then ISO out the players and find someone that I feel confident in pursuing (at least compared to the others on the list). As of this game right now, it has now happened. This leads me to believe Mafia has Day Chat. Upon thinking about it after doing the ISO's - a fantastic combo would be [Traitor Knows Mafia + Day Chat]. It would allow them to coordinate through the day to not who they think is the Traitor (or Traitors), as well would explain why the VCA is so hard to interpret.

We also may want to look into players that normally are super active Day 1, but were not this Day 1. As, if they have day chat, they could of been using up their time speaking there instead of in the public thread.


All that aside - here are the 3 sets of notes I have on MiX, Glooble and SS...
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: DatSwan on June 14, 2019, 04:56:29 am
Silver Notes:

114 - votes GK for the comment about Mafia winning N1. I don't see how that is skummy talk. Personally, I had not considered that that could be an option. But if there are 5 Mafia (2 of them traitors), it could of pointed out to a potential Town PGO that N1 may not be the best night to activate their ability because of the Hood Vig Kill.

128 - find both MiX and the people on his wagon skummy - That is MiX plus [mcmcsalot, A Drowned Kernel, pingpongsam, Debatepro]. Aside from being just a amazingly open ended accusation, we also now know that ADK and Debate were town. Just to be noted - but for inferences I am choosing not to go into right now, this post really pinged me in the wrong way.

211 - points out they are aware of the fact that the majority of their posts are non-committal... which is absolutely true. It is also a skum trait. I just can't decide if vocalizing it is skummy/defensive or towny trying to help.

261 - policy votes MiX - This kind of plays into post 128. I don't necessarily disagree with the concept of the policy vote or its merits, but they opened the door to be able to vote 5/12 other players, then continues to go for PPS, then for MiX, and also ends up on the Debatepro eod wagon. Again, another thing that isn't like "skummy" because they did say they skum read all of those players... but also the open ended nature of it is just weird.

277 - defends MiX vs Joth

298 - Previously skum read [Mix, mcmcsalot, A Drowned Kernel, pingpongsam, Debatepro]. Now does a re read and find Pubby as skummy and town block is [ADK, Glooble, Eddie, Joth]. - So ADK moves to town from skum. It appears MiX does as well based on 277. [Glooble, Eddie, Joth] are town blocked. And [MCMC, PPS, DebatePro] are dropped from the SR list. There were like 100+ posts, so things could of changed, but that is a lot of changes.

370 - Debatepro is an OK lynch again.

378 - Doesn't want to lynch E or Joth. Already had Joth on that list, and gave a good explanation for E! not being the best choice.

400 - Doesn't want to lynch EFHW or GK

454 - unvotes pubby. Had been previously saying they would not unvote until pubby showed up and answered some stuff, but unvotes when pubby gets to L1. Town points I think there.

458 - Votes E after stating they did not want to lynch E. Later says they did not have the actual intention of lynching E.

517 - moves vote to Debate pro when there is only 13 minutes


Summary - They are pushing angles, but not committing to a given one. They are leaving things open, but it was Day 1, so that isn't really too crazy. In between all of that I think their general energy is Towny. All in all, I do not think they would be the best of what I find acceptable options for today.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: DatSwan on June 14, 2019, 04:56:51 am
MiX Notes:

124 - So everything up to this point is just early game interaction. Makes some early day 1 "they are town" calls... says Joth is Skum (or SK, to be specific), votes around a little bit and lands on SS. In this post they also make an error saying there won't be ICs in this game. Given the Hood situation there is absolutely a way for there to be IC(s) in this game. Don't think it was a slip, but worth noting.

132 - alone this post means nothing, but when paired with 124, it makes me think possible slip? MiX states that they "have the skum team solved"... it is joth/gkrieg/ss/e, mcmc's survivor... but they "don't know who the SK is". When called out on it they say "Ah I thought that was the case, I meant 1/4 of them was the traitor". I am inclined to believe MiX here as someone that often puts their foot to mouth myself. So right now, nothing to be had from this, but it should be noted for potential later days.

175 - votes GK for "letting the traitor know how to play". Odd vote. The traitor knows how to play. No traitor is gonna come out and purposefully over crumb, and talking about it certainly is not skummy.

Then there is a lot of filler - not that it is bad I guess, just kind of conversations for conversations sake.

256 - I don't need to follow through if it doesn't help town bit.

278 - The key to not breaking promises is to not make them - this is correct. it also shouldn't be like a revaluation. as town you should be able to make very few "promises".

307 - Defending me and ADK vs Debatepro. In hindsight, and with pov, this is MiX defending 2 town vs a town. Again, I want to say conf!bias skummy, but it obv could also be town v town/town/town.

340 - Good break down of Debatepro's reads list, which they could of used to attack them, but did not.

460 - leaves pubby when they are at L1 - as I think pubby was a weird wagon at the time, I assign town points for that.

Mix then goes on to finish middle wagon on Debatepro. There is other stuff, but I am not going into all of it.



Summary:

1) MiX is playing different than usual:

I have played like 5 games with MiX. I was skum once, they pushed the shit out of me correctly. I was town 4 times. 3 of those 4 times I thought they were skum and they were town, the time I hard defended them they were the SK. So, take any inferences I seem to be making with a grain of salt - I am not claiming to to be a MiX read expert.
Different in this instance has more to do with 2 things:
a) They are being far more defensive of people voting them than they usually are.
b) They are being far more cooperative in general then they normally are.
*As they have played the same in any game I can think of in the past, the a/b above are kind of NAI, but they are def different than usual*

2) MiX is doing a good job of being active this game, but they are putting a lot of questions on other people instead of intensely breaking down one person at a time (which is the mix I know, as both town and/or mafia). The game this feels most similar to is when they were SK.

So on MiX I am leaning either like EXACTLY Traitor, or town... which sucks because that is 2 out of three cases that don't really have a great end point to go on.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: DatSwan on June 14, 2019, 04:57:18 am
Glooble Notes:

198 - up to this point standard RVS shit. Disagrees with mylo day 2 concept, takes a stance on SK hunting vs Traitor hunting... the usual stuff. Then in this post they jump on me for my interaction with Ashes after EFHW opens the door. Not OMGUS... it just strikes me a skummy.

206 - post about mis interpretation vs mis characterization. That part doesn't matter. What does matter is the way they talk about it as if they know Ashes is town.

209 - again attacking me. this time with the concept of "mafia 101, skum wants to create suspicion". This is actually a fair point in Glooble's defense. It was not my intention, but there inference of the situation is not necessarily skummy.

250 - Glooble reads the skum thread ADK and I brought up to clear the air... kind of. They read, I am assuming, the first page or so, and then came back and posted. I have not played enough with them to know if that rush is skummy or not - but I am pointing it out.

306 - I do not think Town has a reason to lie about anything. - Lord save me and never let awaclus ever see this... but in the time I have actually played with Glooble, I can say that he is a good enough player to know that is a false statement.

403 - points out in this size game that there will be lurkers and that it is likely that we will find skum there. I am gonna expand on that more later, but a hell of a towny point to make.

422 - more town points. pushing for consolidating wagons.

Glooble ends up on the Debatepro wagon. Their end of day posts struck me as towny.


Summary:

Fuck if i know. I think the fact they were so fixated on me and ADK is odd, but it is also understandable. They do skummy stuff, but the overall interaction seems to be on the towny side of things. So again... lamely, I have no case here over the others mentioned.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: DatSwan on June 14, 2019, 04:59:27 am
Also, super off topic side note - I think it is skummy of everyone that pushed for the Neighbors to claim. Based on VCA I wanted to lynch one of the here mentioned 3 players, but after reading, possibly looking into the pro-claim group may be a better option.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: DatSwan on June 14, 2019, 05:11:15 am
Vote: MCMC

Until someone else brings something more interesting up, it is that for me with the possibility of Joth (for Hood Claim push), SS for the same, and Pubby for a totally aside reason ... PPS gets added to that list pretty soon for the same reason as MCMC, but I am to believe they have been traveling, so IRL pass for now.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: MiX on June 14, 2019, 07:14:47 am
I feel like Swan's Glooble post is really solid, untill he starts saying things are towny for no reason. Pointing that lurkers are scum is a great pretext to scumread pubby, pushing for wagons is easy if they're both on town (which I suspect they were) and then you give a gut townread for his EoD which for me doesn't excuse the rest.

On the other hand Swan's spot on about his take on me, except you've played with scum!me as town.

Who else will join me on the Glooble wagon? Come on, Swan made an amazing case, how can you turn away from it?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Glooble on June 14, 2019, 08:15:41 am
My position on lying as town is well documented and consistent with every game of played. I don't do it and I'm suspicious of anyone who does. I know there are situations where it seems appealing in order to catch scum in a lie, but I think its very seldom if ever worth undermining the trust of town.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Glooble on June 14, 2019, 08:17:40 am
And yes, DatSwan, I did not read the entire scum QT. I stopped when I found what looked like a blatant contradiction. I didn't think anything after night 0 would be relevant to my point anyway.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: mcmcsalot on June 14, 2019, 09:55:32 am
Rereading now
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on June 14, 2019, 10:23:10 am
If MiX is traitor and scum knows traitor, that would explain why a MiX wagon is having so much trouble gaining traction...
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: MiX on June 14, 2019, 10:26:53 am
If MiX is traitor and scum knows traitor, that would explain why a MiX wagon is having so much trouble gaining traction...

Scum knows traitor? Sweet, I'm the best traitor ever!
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: EFHW on June 14, 2019, 10:34:40 am
I disagree that worry about PR's is good reason not to have the neighborhood claim. We already lost the vanilla cop. Bodyguard, bodyguard's target, and PGO are good to target, assuming PGO picks the right night. Add to that PGO is possibly negative utility and 1 shot watcher is really weak. Even night tracker is ok, not great.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: EFHW on June 14, 2019, 10:35:56 am
Roleblocker might be useful.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: gkrieg13 on June 14, 2019, 11:29:00 am
If MiX is traitor and scum knows traitor, that would explain why a MiX wagon is having so much trouble gaining traction...

I don't think mafia can know traitor in this setup?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: 2.71828..... on June 14, 2019, 12:40:14 pm
If MiX is traitor and scum knows traitor, that would explain why a MiX wagon is having so much trouble gaining traction...

I don't think mafia can know traitor in this setup?

Yeah, seems to be trying real hard for that town slip.

Vote: joth
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: 2.71828..... on June 14, 2019, 12:43:15 pm
But I do need to do a thorough reread, and now I have some good confirmation bias to read with
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: 2.71828..... on June 14, 2019, 12:44:35 pm
All joking aside, anyone have something they think I should pay closer attention to as I reread?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: gkrieg13 on June 14, 2019, 01:12:24 pm
I think Datswan is town.

vote: joth
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: gkrieg13 on June 14, 2019, 01:13:18 pm
Would still be fine with pubby, but don't really want to lynch MiX.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on June 14, 2019, 01:48:39 pm
Yíall remember Iím VLA all weekend right? Try not to lynch me while Iím gone.

I mixed up mafia knows traitor with traitor knows mafia. Sorry. Weird thing to vote me over but ok.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: mcmcsalot on June 14, 2019, 02:43:04 pm
Gkrieg, ask, swan are all town

Super odd suspicions of efhw and e

I find glooble and joth scummy.


MiX Iím having a hard time readin, I have town read him a bunch and am kinda defaulting that way.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: mcmcsalot on June 14, 2019, 02:46:49 pm
Thatís my help, also Iím town. Also Iím playing like hot garbage this game.

I feel like people who were starting the pubby wagon d1 are scummy since my vote was just hanging out on him as I decided to skip the second half of the day.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: EFHW on June 14, 2019, 07:57:04 pm
Ok, I'm home for the day and I've decided to claim. I am in the neighborhood. No one has taken issue with my PR argument and there's no other reason to withhold this information from town. There are three of us. I'll hold off on saying who, or they can.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: DatSwan on June 14, 2019, 11:18:13 pm
Ok, I'm home for the day and I've decided to claim. I am in the neighborhood. No one has taken issue with my PR argument and there's no other reason to withhold this information from town. There are three of us. I'll hold off on saying who, or they can.


So now skum knows not to shoot you and we still donít know if you are town or skum.
Why would you do this right now? What upside do you expect from this claim?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: MiX on June 15, 2019, 03:18:40 am
Ok, I'm home for the day and I've decided to claim. I am in the neighborhood. No one has taken issue with my PR argument and there's no other reason to withhold this information from town. There are three of us. I'll hold off on saying who, or they can.

I thought you realized Roleblocker was good enough to not claim Neighbor...

Ok, well, who did you kill?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Night 1)
Post by: DatSwan on June 15, 2019, 03:31:12 am
I wonder if e is a neighbor and prompted the kill on eddie.
? Why?
I'm trying to guess which player was scum-killed and which player was neighborhood-killed. I think ADK came off more towny yesterday, and Eddie came off more scummy, so maybe scum killed ADK and neighbors killed Eddie. And the player most likely to have a bone to pick with Eddie is e.

Don't think this matters much at all though :P

EFHW - since you went ahead and claimed... you wanna confirm whether this is accurate or not? I can't see a downside in you sharing now that you have claimed.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: pingpongsam on June 15, 2019, 06:32:42 am
Iíll be the first to admit I donít know why itís good or bad to neighbor claim but when that was a big topic it sure seemed like general consensus someone should do it and do it like EFHW just did it. Thus I am thoroughly confused at the immediate negative reaction to her doing it.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: silverspawn on June 15, 2019, 06:43:58 am
I reread the game. Most of it. Isn't that virtuous?

Notes

How does anyone ever find scum? You guys are too level headed to reveal stuff. Maybe they don't and it's all random.

Can someone tell me what DatSwan's scum tells are?

I'm not the authority on MiX since I didn't catch the recent games with them, but nonetheless, insofar as I do have a gut read it's town leaning. Let's do something else rather than defaulting into a MiX lynch.

ADK is rolling (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=19685.0;all). I'm old-fahsioned and usually walk.

e is also towny

joth is funny

joth is scummy. vote: joth

vote: joth

Interesting, maybe ADK agrees? ADK, can you explain why you made that vote at that point, if you still remember? Edit: nvm you died n1.

My reads early into this game were garbage. Not very suprising.

gkrieg is towny

ash is also towny. Actually I'm not feeling that hopeless about this game anymore. Maybe we can do better than random.

Eddie is also towny. And also dead.

I want to mod something. something suddenly gave me an idea for a new mechanic that would be cool and I want a game with GPT-2 generated flavor.

Today joth seems towny. Game is hard again. Here goes my (un) unvote

Ok MiX is super town right now. Whomever we lynch, it shouldn't be them.

Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: silverspawn on June 15, 2019, 06:44:47 am
Ok, I'm home for the day and I've decided to claim. I am in the neighborhood. No one has taken issue with my PR argument and there's no other reason to withhold this information from town. There are three of us. I'll hold off on saying who, or they can.

I fully support your decision to come out. f.ds is a tolerant bunch. We can accept you for who you are.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: silverspawn on June 15, 2019, 06:51:22 am
I think we should be treating survivor as town because otherwise there aren't enough town. let's be practical. So we can assume the neighborhood has one scum + rest town.

I think I want a full neighborhood claim for PoE. Better try to get the scum out of the group killed quickly so that we have some utility from the ICs.

Like, the PR stuff is super weaksauce. Look at the list. Vanilla cop? Already dead. Roleblocker? I'll give you that one. Bodyguard? I mean who cares. Even-Night Tracker? I'll give you that one, too. 1-shot Watcher? probably already used their shot. 1-shot Active Paranoid Gun Owner? Go ahead and target them, scum. In fact this one is a reason not to be worried.

In total there are 2 PRs that might be dangerous. Odds are neither of them actually exists in the game. Then there's a role that makes targeting PRs worse for scum. And then there's the fact that neighbors are also viable targets once we lynch the scum neighbor.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: silverspawn on June 15, 2019, 06:52:31 am
I'm surprised at people's thinking on third party choices.  If you want to win (regardless of fun), you don't go it alone.  SK/Survivor is hard.

You have to choose to join the mafia, making a 5-player team.  Even unknown, that's just a huge boon and a difficult situation for town.  I mean, maybe you could go survivor and claim?  If Neighbors stay hidden, Mafia have to decide whether to shoot you to kill neighbors or not.  But just being a traitor seems like the best move.

Again, that is if you choose based on wanting to win.  If you choose for fun or personal preference, there's no real rhyme or reason that matters.

Ugh... ash, did you by chance actually pick that role?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: silverspawn on June 15, 2019, 06:52:39 am
As in, I don't think what you said makes you townier, but I think you're less scum.

noooo this makes no sense  :(

One thing I've noticed this town in particular loves doing is saying "I think this person is scum" and then not laying down any kind of a case to back that up. We had pubby and joth, Eddie and e, and now MiX and me.

Making cases is so hard. and it feels more like work than just figuring out what you think. although it does help you figuring out whether what you think makes sense
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: silverspawn on June 15, 2019, 06:54:09 am
vote: mcmc because my only scum read had the indecency of being towny today
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: silverspawn on June 15, 2019, 06:55:02 am
I'll look into DatSwan and their posts separately, since there's actually quite a bit there and that deserves more attention than I had left right now. Maybe later today.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: EFHW on June 15, 2019, 07:18:12 am
Ok, I'm home for the day and I've decided to claim. I am in the neighborhood. No one has taken issue with my PR argument and there's no other reason to withhold this information from town. There are three of us. I'll hold off on saying who, or they can.


So now skum knows not to shoot you and we still donít know if you are town or skum.
Why would you do this right now? What upside do you expect from this claim?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: EFHW on June 15, 2019, 07:19:26 am
Postfail. @DatSwan  I did it in large part because you didn't want me to.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: EFHW on June 15, 2019, 07:33:25 am
Ok, I'm home for the day and I've decided to claim. I am in the neighborhood. No one has taken issue with my PR argument and there's no other reason to withhold this information from town. There are three of us. I'll hold off on saying who, or they can.

I thought you realized Roleblocker was good enough to not claim Neighbor...

Ok, well, who did you kill?
Eddie
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: MiX on June 15, 2019, 07:36:01 am
Ss went through the same joth crisis as me and I think scum!ss wouldn't bother with it. So he's super town. Mcmc's the scummiest man alive which means he's probably the next mislynch. Ash is not the traitor because I am (given that thinking that traitor's the best third-party makes you traitor, right?).

Swan's scumtell is having fun with the setup. Swan's real scumtell is pushing really really bad cases.

Ok, I'm home for the day and I've decided to claim. I am in the neighborhood. No one has taken issue with my PR argument and there's no other reason to withhold this information from town. There are three of us. I'll hold off on saying who, or they can.

I thought you realized Roleblocker was good enough to not claim Neighbor...

Ok, well, who did you kill?
Eddie

I am not neighbor because I need to ask you if you agreed with that. Also obviously being wrong means I wasn't Neighbor anyway.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: EFHW on June 15, 2019, 07:38:31 am
@MiX, what is your question? We had a consensus on the vig.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: MiX on June 15, 2019, 07:39:30 am
@MiX, what is your question? We had a consensus on the vig.

That answers it. Did you propose that idea or had it in mind before N1?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: EFHW on June 15, 2019, 07:41:40 am
@MiX, what is your question? We had a consensus on the vig.

That answers it. Did you propose that idea or had it in mind before N1?
Bit of a longer story.  I'll type it up when I am at a computer.

Did you just claim traitor?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: MiX on June 15, 2019, 07:43:25 am
@MiX, what is your question? We had a consensus on the vig.

That answers it. Did you propose that idea or had it in mind before N1?
Bit of a longer story.  I'll type it up when I am at a computer.

Did you just claim traitor?

Looking forward to it!

I claimed it as much as ash did, which is not at all.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: silverspawn on June 15, 2019, 07:43:42 am
I feel partially responsible for making too many jokes during my reread. But that shouldn't give you allowance to also make jokes.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: MiX on June 15, 2019, 07:47:13 am
I feel partially responsible for making too many jokes during my reread. But that shouldn't give you allowance to also make jokes.

But I liked your jokes, it made you look even townier!

What do you think of Glooble? Between him, mcmc and maybe joth (with a slightly "e is scum neighbor" story that explains why no one wants him dead) right now.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: pubby on June 15, 2019, 08:31:07 am
Does anyone else find PPS+Ashersky super suspicious?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: silverspawn on June 15, 2019, 08:32:16 am
Nothing I've seen in the reread was a strong reason to think they're town. Also, nothing I've seen in the reread was a strong reason to think they're scum.

But most other people are town so they're a reasonable choice.

Does anyone else find PPS+Ashersky super suspicious?

I don't. What's suspicious about them?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: pubby on June 15, 2019, 08:52:00 am
I don't like how Ash didn't vote yesterday. He was in the thread only a few hours before the deadline, saying we should lynch instead of no-lynch, but he didn't vote? Not even for the people he scum-reads? That's a red flag to me.

My suspicious towards PPS is weaker but I don't like how quiet/insignificant he's been. Like you, I agree he doesn't come off as scum or town yet.

I guess it's worth noting that Ash reads PPS as town. (why??)
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: ashersky on June 15, 2019, 08:53:31 am
I'm surprised at people's thinking on third party choices.  If you want to win (regardless of fun), you don't go it alone.  SK/Survivor is hard.

You have to choose to join the mafia, making a 5-player team.  Even unknown, that's just a huge boon and a difficult situation for town.  I mean, maybe you could go survivor and claim?  If Neighbors stay hidden, Mafia have to decide whether to shoot you to kill neighbors or not.  But just being a traitor seems like the best move.

Again, that is if you choose based on wanting to win.  If you choose for fun or personal preference, there's no real rhyme or reason that matters.

Ugh... ash, did you by chance actually pick that role?

I was not given that choice, sadly. Or for the best?  I think MiX could be a/the traitor. Straight up joke claiming seems like a good way to signal.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: ashersky on June 15, 2019, 08:53:56 am
Yes, why is it worth noting?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: ashersky on June 15, 2019, 08:55:34 am
unvote
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: pubby on June 15, 2019, 08:59:28 am
Ash, last game you were the one who hammered me as the first lynch of the game. You were town.

This game you could have hammered me, but you didn't. Immediately after you said:

Quote
Six or so hours left?  Hammer is better than no lynch.

WHEN YOU COULD HAVE HAMMERED ME.

Vote: Ash
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: pubby on June 15, 2019, 09:23:08 am
My bad there.  I came to the forum four minutes after deadline.
BTW this is dumb nitpicking but what an oddly specific number. Did you really read the timestamp of the mod post and say, "Hmm... I arrived 4 minutes after this was posted. I'm going to make a mental note."
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: MiX on June 15, 2019, 09:23:36 am
Ash, last game you were the one who hammered me as the first lynch of the game. You were town.

This game you could have hammered me, but you didn't. Immediately after you said:

Quote
Six or so hours left?  Hammer is better than no lynch.

WHEN YOU COULD HAVE HAMMERED ME.

Vote: Ash

So you want to die? Last time ash was scum he hammered twice so I don't think it's a tell for him. I think he just likes hammering.

I'm surprised at people's thinking on third party choices.  If you want to win (regardless of fun), you don't go it alone.  SK/Survivor is hard.

You have to choose to join the mafia, making a 5-player team.  Even unknown, that's just a huge boon and a difficult situation for town.  I mean, maybe you could go survivor and claim?  If Neighbors stay hidden, Mafia have to decide whether to shoot you to kill neighbors or not.  But just being a traitor seems like the best move.

Again, that is if you choose based on wanting to win.  If you choose for fun or personal preference, there's no real rhyme or reason that matters.

Ugh... ash, did you by chance actually pick that role?

I was not given that choice, sadly. Or for the best?  I think MiX could be a/the traitor. Straight up joke claiming seems like a good way to signal.

Good, now scum thinks I'm traitor which means I live another day. Or at least they don't know who the real traitor is, which means they can't protect them. But seriously I don't think there's a way for third-party traitor to signal.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: ashersky on June 15, 2019, 09:36:03 am
My bad there.  I came to the forum four minutes after deadline.
BTW this is dumb nitpicking but what an oddly specific number. Did you really read the timestamp of the mod post and say, "Hmm... I arrived 4 minutes after this was posted. I'm going to make a mental note."

I looked at forum time at the top of the page. It said 10:04. I made a note in my personal QT about it, too. You can see it after the game and check the time stamp there, too.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: ashersky on June 15, 2019, 09:37:11 am
Ash, last game you were the one who hammered me as the first lynch of the game. You were town.

This game you could have hammered me, but you didn't. Immediately after you said:

Quote
Six or so hours left?  Hammer is better than no lynch.

WHEN YOU COULD HAVE HAMMERED ME.

Vote: Ash

Pretty sure the vote count was wrong so I couldnít hammer you.  Or something like that. I remember thinking about it and being disappointed.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: ashersky on June 15, 2019, 09:38:43 am
As for me and hammers in general, Iíll let literally everyone else ever answer.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: EFHW on June 15, 2019, 11:28:25 am
@MiX, what is your question? We had a consensus on the vig.

That answers it. Did you propose that idea or had it in mind before N1?

I started with Glooble and joth. One person was hesitant about Glooble and suggested MiX. I didn't want MiX and brought up Eddie. There was consensus from there. The third neighbor didn't suggest or object to anyone. The ease of the consensus made me worry that Eddie was town, but I decided that a scum neighbor could be uncomfortable objecting to a partner. I also couldn't change the target on my own and didn't know the motivations of the non-scum neighbor.

Both felt strongly that we shouldn't claim. I didn't say anything one way or the other.

The way things happened made me concerned that there was indeed scum in the neighborhood and that is why I claimed.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: MiX on June 15, 2019, 11:32:28 am
@MiX, what is your question? We had a consensus on the vig.

That answers it. Did you propose that idea or had it in mind before N1?

The third neighbor didn't suggest or object to anyone.

Was Awaclus there? Is that the big twist in this game? Oh well, thank you for your explanation.

Still feel like doing Glooble?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: EFHW on June 15, 2019, 11:40:52 am
I'm not saying names yet because I want to hear from town about whether they think scum was there.

I had a really great theory that didn't pan out. I thought if there was a survivor in the neighborhood they could claim and if there was scum, too, they would claim. The two of them would vig me and then survivor would ally with mafia.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Glooble on June 15, 2019, 03:57:13 pm
I'm not saying names yet because I want to hear from town about whether they think scum was there.

I had a really great theory that didn't pan out. I thought if there was a survivor in the neighborhood they could claim and if there was scum, too, they would claim. The two of them would vig me and then survivor would ally with mafia.

I am having a ton of trouble parsing this second paragraph, EFHW.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: EFHW on June 15, 2019, 04:11:41 pm
I'm not saying names yet because I want to hear from town about whether they think scum was there.

I had a really great theory that didn't pan out. I thought if there was a survivor in the neighborhood they could claim and if there was scum, too, they would claim. The two of them would vig me and then survivor would ally with mafia.
Imagine me as town, the second neighbor as scum, and the third neighbor as survivor.

I am having a ton of trouble parsing this second paragraph, EFHW.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Glooble on June 15, 2019, 04:19:02 pm
Ok I think I get it. I was like ďwhy would scum claim?Ē But I didnít realize you meant within the neighborhood.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: pingpongsam on June 15, 2019, 07:31:49 pm
Unvote

The whole traitor thing leaves a pretty towny impression on MiX. I think I am going to get a solid chance to reread and post up tomorrow since I can play the fatherís day leave me alone for a while card.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: DatSwan on June 15, 2019, 11:04:13 pm
I'm not saying names yet because I want to hear from town about whether they think scum was there.

I had a really great theory that didn't pan out. I thought if there was a survivor in the neighborhood they could claim and if there was scum, too, they would claim. The two of them would vig me and then survivor would ally with mafia.

Dudet I am having so much issue with this line of reasoning, please correct me if I am misinterpreting anything:

1) Your plan is based on assuming your 3 person hood consists of 1 Skum, 1 Survivor, and yourself. You said some stuff went down that made you suspicious of skum... ok cool, fair enough. But how do you justify the leap from "it is me plus 2 others, and I am getting skummy vibes" to "there is exactly 1 skum, 1 survivor, and me and the survivor is gonna claim first followed by skum and then I solve the game"?

2) No one claimed, you were the first. So you were getting skummy vibes and basing the assumption behind it on the concept of skum/survivor claiming. Then no one claimed. So... where as I wanna say "that means you must think you have town people in your hood now", you claim kind of contradicts that.


Maybe I am just fucking up my interpretation - but can you explain to me what the  anticipated upside for Town is based on your claim?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: EFHW on June 15, 2019, 11:49:27 pm
You misread. The second paragraph was all hypothetical and counter-factual.

The benefit for town is that given the scummy vibes I got, I think the neighborhood could be a good place to look for scum.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: faust on June 16, 2019, 02:47:19 am
Vote Count 2.3

jotheonah (2): 2.71828....., gkrieg13
MiX (1): jotheonah
mcmcsalot (2): DatSwan, silverspawn
Glooble (1): MiX
ashersky (1): pubby

Not Voting (5): Glooble, mcmcsalot, EFHW, ashersky, pingpongsam

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch. Day 2 ends on June 19, 2019, 10:10:00 am.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: MiX on June 16, 2019, 05:25:27 am
You misread. The second paragraph was all hypothetical and counter-factual.

The benefit for town is that given the scummy vibes I got, I think the neighborhood could be a good place to look for scum.

The sooner you out them, the faster we can start considering them.

Joth's one of them, and I suspect the other's pubby? Maaaaaybe ss/pps. So if I can figure this out surely scum can, I don't see why you would scumread them and not out them.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Glooble on June 16, 2019, 05:38:00 am
You misread. The second paragraph was all hypothetical and counter-factual.

The benefit for town is that given the scummy vibes I got, I think the neighborhood could be a good place to look for scum.

The sooner you out them, the faster we can start considering them.

Joth's one of them, and I suspect the other's pubby? Maaaaaybe ss/pps. So if I can figure this out surely scum can, I don't see why you would scumread them and not out them.

Joth wanted to vig... himself?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: MiX on June 16, 2019, 05:41:31 am
You misread. The second paragraph was all hypothetical and counter-factual.

The benefit for town is that given the scummy vibes I got, I think the neighborhood could be a good place to look for scum.

The sooner you out them, the faster we can start considering them.

Joth's one of them, and I suspect the other's pubby? Maaaaaybe ss/pps. So if I can figure this out surely scum can, I don't see why you would scumread them and not out them.

Joth wanted to vig... himself?

I suppose EFHW wouldn't suggest someone in it, but the way she said the second person didn't want Glooble and said nothing about joth seems like it would be joth. Just wild guessing, which is something scum can do better knowing 4 people that cannot be in the neighborhood. Regardless, scumreading neighbors is pointless if they aren't revealed.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: EFHW on June 16, 2019, 06:11:27 am
The one I'm scumreading is DatSwan.  I'm being cautious because I have been mistakenly scumreading him for a few games now.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: EFHW on June 16, 2019, 06:14:42 am
He's the 9ne who didn't suggest or object to anyone  and who was the strongest against claiming.

The other one was ashersky,  who was also against claiming.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: EFHW on June 16, 2019, 06:21:28 am
ashersky not coming forward after I claimed and after the pr argument was negated without protest makes me think he doesn't want it known that he is in the neighborhood,  either.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: EFHW on June 16, 2019, 06:23:25 am
*without protest from the rest of town
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: MiX on June 16, 2019, 06:26:18 am
So it's EFHW/ash/Swan... most likely they're 3 town, since I don't think any of them would pick survivor. Of these 3...yes, I suppose Swan's the scummiest, but I would sooner lynch EFHW...which revealed this information at my request. I think we just outed 3 town. Thank you EFHW.

I need to get a Glooble case ASAP.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: EFHW on June 16, 2019, 06:35:52 am
If Datswan was the scummiest, why would you rather lynch me?

I'm really surprised by your reaction.  Usually you would take more time to go through each possibility.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: EFHW on June 16, 2019, 06:38:38 am
I agree that choosing neighbor is probably a mistake.  But I think people in this group would find the idea appealing. 
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: MiX on June 16, 2019, 06:49:25 am
If Datswan was the scummiest, why would you rather lynch me?

I'm really surprised by your reaction.  Usually you would take more time to go through each possibility.

Ash said he wouldn't pick survivor (I completely trust him on that), you revealed the neighborhood (which is pointless for a survivor, since you determined why survivor isn't in the same neighborhood as scum with your crazy theory) and I doubt Swan's survivor for meta reasons, although I suppose he could be. So if you're either scum or town, I think you're all town because that's what I thought before you revealed.

Swan's "scummiest" because everyone has been scumreading them, which means scum!EFHW would love to give another reason to scumread him. But really I think you're all town.

Does anyone know a good scum!Glooble game? Because he hasn't gotten scum ever since he came back and I'm having a hard time metareading him.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Glooble on June 16, 2019, 07:09:16 am

I need to get a Glooble case ASAP.

Iím ready to vote: MiX finally. Heís admitting he doesnít actually have a case on me - if he had one, he wouldnít need to ďgetĒ one.

Town wants to find scum. Scum wants to ďget a caseĒ on whatever player theyíve decided is todayís easy mislynch.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: MiX on June 16, 2019, 07:15:05 am

I need to get a Glooble case ASAP.

Iím ready to vote: MiX finally. Heís admitting he doesnít actually have a case on me - if he had one, he wouldnít need to ďgetĒ one.

Town wants to find scum. Scum wants to ďget a caseĒ on whatever player theyíve decided is todayís easy mislynch.

Scum would've had a case a while ago...but fine, tell me how I can make a case without knowing how you act when you're scum. Everything I could point out as inconsistencies (scumreading Swan for no reason, going back to the other game to scumread Swan some more, saying ADK's also scum because he's lying even though scum's the least likely one to lie...hmm...I actually forgot about everything you did this game that was scummy, should've written it down) you can easily say you're playing differently or you can point at a town game where you do that.

The "easy mislynch" today's...oh yeah it's you. Unless enough people go for Swan(?) or something. Nevermind it's mcmc. So why am I wasting time with you?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: silverspawn on June 16, 2019, 07:22:40 am
So it's EFHW/ash/Swan... most likely they're 3 town, since I don't think any of them would pick survivor. Of these 3...yes, I suppose Swan's the scummiest, but I would sooner lynch EFHW...which revealed this information at my request. I think we just outed 3 town. Thank you EFHW.

I need to get a Glooble case ASAP.

what? forget the survivor. One of them can be MAFIA.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: MiX on June 16, 2019, 07:25:32 am
So it's EFHW/ash/Swan... most likely they're 3 town, since I don't think any of them would pick survivor. Of these 3...yes, I suppose Swan's the scummiest, but I would sooner lynch EFHW...which revealed this information at my request. I think we just outed 3 town. Thank you EFHW.

I need to get a Glooble case ASAP.

what? forget the survivor. One of them can be MAFIA.

Fine, but I'm also townreading all of them. I don't think any of them are scum.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: ashersky on June 16, 2019, 07:44:04 am
ashersky not coming forward after I claimed and after the pr argument was negated without protest makes me think he doesn't want it known that he is in the neighborhood,  either.

Well, no, I didnít. I didnít want it known you were in it either.  At this point, town neighborsí best role is to draw NKs away from remaining town PRs. Now, I canít, and since I was townreading you, you canít either. I think your claim was a mistake, but a town-reasoning-driven one.

I also noted Datswan didnít suggest any targets. I was enjoying watching their posts as if they werenít neighbor and I wondered where it would go.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: silverspawn on June 16, 2019, 08:34:35 am
Short probabilities post. Let's assume no 3d party neighbor. What is the probability p of having two additional town members? It depends on how many PRs scum picked. If it's ...

... 4, then p = 28.6%  (6 * 2/7 * 1/6)
... 3, then p = 14.3%  (3 * 2/7 * 1/6)
... 2, then p = 04.8%  (1 * 2/7 * 1/6)
... 1, then p = 00.0%
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: silverspawn on June 16, 2019, 08:35:59 am
We could verify this via massclaim. That would give us additional information about how many PRs there are. But I don't think there's a world in which I don't want to lynch out of the neighborhood. Probably ash or DatSwan. Probably DatSwan.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: silverspawn on June 16, 2019, 08:39:41 am
I would suspect that scum probably did choose 4 PRs, because if you're going to make one of your scum buddies a neighbor, then you want a lot of town neighbors. In that world, there are 4 roles chosen and one of them is a neighbor. The probbiality of that is 57.1%. The most likely case. This sounds like a reasonable guess.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: silverspawn on June 16, 2019, 08:44:47 am
I think I want a (partial) massclaim regardless, however. If we can pin down how many PRs there are, then we get another group where we know how much scum is among them. For example, if we get 5 claims, one of them is guaranteed scum.

I suggest we have everyone claim PR and non-PR. I think this will be more helpful for town than for scum. Remember that town could have a PGO, so scum can't safely NK anyone.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: MiX on June 16, 2019, 08:45:12 am
Short probabilities post. Let's assume no 3d party neighbor. What is the probability p of having two additional town members? It depends on how many PRs scum picked. If it's ...

... 4, then p = 28.6%  (6 * 2/7 * 1/6)
... 3, then p = 14.3%  (3 * 2/7 * 1/6)
... 2, then p = 04.8%  (1 * 2/7 * 1/6)
... 1, then p = 00.0%

Did you factor the fact that third-party removes one of the roles and/or third-party's most likely traitor so there's 1 more PR?

We could verify this via massclaim. That would give us additional information about how many PRs there are. But I don't think there's a world in which I don't want to lynch out of the neighborhood. Probably ash or DatSwan. Probably DatSwan.

If we do this, I sugest a mere "I am PR" or "I am not PR" given there's a bunch that don't mind dying.

I would suspect that scum probably did choose 4 PRs, because if you're going to make one of your scum buddies a neighbor, then you want a lot of town neighbors. In that world, there are 4 roles chosen and one of them is a neighbor. The probbiality of that is 57.1%. The most likely case. This sounds like a reasonable guess.

I wouldn't pick 4 powers, sounds overkill and I don't think there's those many good powers. But I can see why increasing the chances of neighbors is good if you choose to be scum neighbor.

PPE: Oh look what i just said
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: silverspawn on June 16, 2019, 08:48:20 am
Did you factor the fact that third-party removes one of the roles and/or third-party's most likely traitor so there's 1 more PR?

I did not. It always gets more complicated  :( Hold on.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Glooble on June 16, 2019, 08:49:17 am
I guess I see the benefit of a mass PR/ not PR claim, and the possibility of the PGO certainly helps, but donít forget itís a 1-shot active PGO. So it probably only protects the other roles for one night. And donít forget scum could fake claim and mess up our numbers.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: silverspawn on June 16, 2019, 09:02:03 am
Disregard the first post. I had forgotten about the extra modifications. That means we need to differentiate between the different picks of the third party member, and then between how many PRs scum picked. But it's still very doable.

Third Party Picked Traitor (+1 PR)
4 scum PRs -> p = 47.6%  (10 * 2/7 * 1/6)
3 scum PRs -> p = 28.6%  (6 * 2/7 * 1/6)
2 scum PRs -> p = 14.3%  (3 * 2/7 * 1/6)
1 scum PRs -> p = 04.8%  (1 * 2/7 * 1/6)

Third Party Picked SK or Reporter (-1 possible town role)
4 scum PRs -> p = 40.0%  (6 * 2/6 * 1/5)
3 scum PRs -> p = 20.0%  (3 * 2/6 * 1/5)
2 scum PRs -> p = 06.7%  (1 * 2/6 * 1/5)
1 scum PRs -> p = 00.0%
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: silverspawn on June 16, 2019, 09:06:03 am
Reasonably certain these are correct. Anyone want to verify?

Unfortunately, this makes the case less strong and I'm now no longer certain I want to lynch between ash and DatSwan. Probably still like a PR / non PR claim.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: silverspawn on June 16, 2019, 09:08:11 am
I guess I see the benefit of a mass PR/ not PR claim, and the possibility of the PGO certainly helps, but donít forget itís a 1-shot active PGO. So it probably only protects the other roles for one night. And donít forget scum could fake claim and mess up our numbers.

Yeah, there'll probably do that. It's still very useful. I don't want to talk too much about what scum can and can't do, though...
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on June 16, 2019, 09:29:34 am
So it's EFHW/ash/Swan... most likely they're 3 town, since I don't think any of them would pick survivor. Of these 3...yes, I suppose Swan's the scummiest, but I would sooner lynch EFHW...which revealed this information at my request. I think we just outed 3 town. Thank you EFHW.

I need to get a Glooble case ASAP.

This is a scummy reaction to EFHWís claim and reveal. Once again, MiX is trying to proactively derail a town plan that might put his partners. Who jumps to ďtheyíre obviously all townĒ like that? Like, that fast. He doesnít even consider thereís scum there.

vote: MiX
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: EFHW on June 16, 2019, 09:56:07 am
Short probabilities post. Let's assume no 3d party neighbor. What is the probability p of having two additional town members? It depends on how many PRs scum picked. If it's ...

... 4, then p = 28.6%  (6 * 2/7 * 1/6)
... 3, then p = 14.3%  (3 * 2/7 * 1/6)
... 2, then p = 04.8%  (1 * 2/7 * 1/6)
... 1, then p = 00.0%
What do each of the 3 numbers being multiplied represent?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: MiX on June 16, 2019, 10:34:44 am
So it's EFHW/ash/Swan... most likely they're 3 town, since I don't think any of them would pick survivor. Of these 3...yes, I suppose Swan's the scummiest, but I would sooner lynch EFHW...which revealed this information at my request. I think we just outed 3 town. Thank you EFHW.

I need to get a Glooble case ASAP.

This is a scummy reaction to EFHWís claim and reveal. Once again, MiX is trying to proactively derail a town plan that might put his partners. Who jumps to ďtheyíre obviously all townĒ like that? Like, that fast. He doesnít even consider thereís scum there.

vote: MiX

I'm waiting for scum to push one of them, ssshhhhh don't tell anyone.

On the other hand feel free to kill me, I built a very minor case for Glooble based solely on his Swan interaction which is probably really weak but I can't see anything better. I'll post it when it's complete.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: MiX on June 16, 2019, 10:39:01 am
Once again, MiX is trying to proactively derail a town plan that might put his partners.

What do you mean by "once again"? I pushed for the claim and everything!
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: silverspawn on June 16, 2019, 10:51:21 am
What do each of the 3 numbers being multiplied represent?

The way you compute the percentage, in case anyone wanted to check.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: EFHW on June 16, 2019, 10:54:28 am
Is this wrong?

Probability of 3 town neighbors with 4 scum modifications and 7 possible town prs= (chance of no scum pr being neighbor) ◊ (2/7 + 2/6 + 2/5) ◊ 1/4.

Chance of scum not picking neighbor in 4 choices, if it were random = 1 - (0 + 1/7 + 1/6 + 1/5). The 0 is because they can't pick 4 modifications that are prs.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: EFHW on June 16, 2019, 11:08:18 am
Or just prob. of 3 town neighbors with 4 mods = (2/7 + 2/6 + 2/5) ◊ 1/4 = 25%.

My question was about how you chose those numbers to be in the equation with those relationships, not what the equation was for.

I promise to do at most only one more post about math.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: silverspawn on June 16, 2019, 11:12:36 am
I don't get how you're getting your numbers. Explain?

Here's how I did it. We draw 4 times from a pool of 7 roles. To hit 2 neighbors, we have to hit neighbor twice and non-neighbor twice. The chance to hit the first neighbor is 2/7, because they are two. the chance to hit the second is 1/6. The chance to hit non-neighbors is then 5/5 and 4/4, i.e. guaranteed. So the probability for neighbor-neighbor-notneighbor-notneighbor is 2/7 * 1/6 * 5/5 * 4/4 or just 2/7 * 1/6. Now there are 6 possible ways to order the two neighbors and the two non-neighbors, so we multiply the thing with 6. (That's n choose k with n = 4 and k = 2.) That's the first probability in my first post. Everything else works with the same principle, just different numbers.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: silverspawn on June 16, 2019, 11:19:37 am
My question was about how you chose those numbers to be in the equation with those relationships, not what the equation was for.

That makes sense, I hope the previous post answers that.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: EFHW on June 16, 2019, 11:30:18 am
2/7◊1/6 is for the combination with lowest prob of picking neighbor twice. The max is 5/5 ◊ 4/4 ◊ 2/5 ◊ 1/4, right? Multiplying the lowest x 6 seems somewhat underestimating, but thank you for explaining.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: silverspawn on June 16, 2019, 11:37:42 am
No, they're actually all equally likely. if you pick notneighbor-notneighbor-neighbor-neighbor, you get 5/7 * 4/6 * 2/5 * 1/4. That's the same numbers in the nominator and denominator as 2/7 * 1/6 * 5/5 * 4/4, just in a different order. The result should be exact.

Whatever you draw first is out of 7, so the denominator has to be 7.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: EFHW on June 16, 2019, 11:40:23 am
No, they're actually all equally likely. if you pick notneighbor-notneighbor-neighbor-neighbor, you get 5/7 * 4/6 * 2/5 * 1/4. That's the same numbers in the nominator and denominator as 2/7 * 1/6 * 5/5 * 4/4, just in a different order. The result should be exact.

Whatever you draw first is out of 7, so the denominator has to be 7.
ok, neat. Sorry for the distraction.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: silverspawn on June 16, 2019, 11:53:35 am
Ok, I think we should figure out who is in favor or VT / non-VT claim.

*raises hand*

Mix and Glooble have already kind of agreed to it, but obv you can withdraw that if you change your mind.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: silverspawn on June 16, 2019, 11:56:59 am
The main benefit is that we create buckets with a certain number of scum in and outside. These buckets are super neat because they narrow down the lynch pool and can lead to the creation of a bunch of ICs. The drawback is that scum can target PRs but this is mitigated by the one-shot PGO.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: pingpongsam on June 16, 2019, 01:22:54 pm
Am I parsing the setup correctly that Mafia has to have selected a minimum of 1 modifications in order for there to be 3 neighbors in the neighborhood? That would require one modification to be converting a goon to neighbor and the corresponding town upgrade being neighbor.

I am just now getting the probability discussion because I was weighing how likely it was that Mafia picked only 2 modifications but the result was 2 town neighbors in addition to the original town neighbor. I was wavering that in order for the neighborhood to be all town mafia picked potentially 4 (with a weight towards the higher end of modifications) modifications and none was neighbor goon.

I guess, in short, it seems if there is a strong likelihood of a neighbor goon then lynching a neighbor is a decent option and a fantastic limit for reread analysis.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: silverspawn on June 16, 2019, 01:37:59 pm
Am I parsing the setup correctly that Mafia has to have selected a minimum of 1 modifications in order for there to be 3 neighbors in the neighborhood?

Ye.

That would require one modification to be converting a goon to neighbor and the corresponding town upgrade being neighbor.

Yeah. But this is very unlikely.

I am just now getting the probability discussion because I was weighing how likely it was that Mafia picked only 2 modifications but the result was 2 town neighbors in addition to the original town neighbor. I was wavering that in order for the neighborhood to be all town mafia picked potentially 4 (with a weight towards the higher end of modifications) modifications and none was neighbor goon.

Yeah, exactly. THat's the scenario where the 3 towns scenario has a prior probability of 47.6%, which is high enough to be somewhat plausible.

What's your take on the VT/non-VT claim?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: pingpongsam on June 16, 2019, 02:21:53 pm
What's your take on the VT/non-VT claim?

Iím not opposed. I canít really grasp the utility of it with no revealed scum to date because they should be able to manipulate the information to make it sufficiently useless today but I think it becomes increasingly useful as scum begin to flip.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: EFHW on June 16, 2019, 03:59:58 pm
Reasonably certain these are correct. Anyone want to verify?

Unfortunately, this makes the case less strong and I'm now no longer certain I want to lynch between ash and DatSwan. Probably still like a PR / non PR claim.
ash and DatSwan said they didn't want to claim because it narrows down who has prs. They have been quite definite about that. You have the opposite plan, which is to completely reveal who has prs. But you don't find them scummy for basing such strong resistance on an argument you feel is unimportant?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: silverspawn on June 16, 2019, 04:15:17 pm
In short, no. I don't actually think the PR thing is unimportant. I think the benefits of claims outweigh the downsides, but not by so much that it's hard for me to believe that someone could come to the opposite conclusion.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: MiX on June 16, 2019, 05:24:19 pm
Ok, I think we should figure out who is in favor or VT / non-VT claim.

*raises hand*

Mix and Glooble have already kind of agreed to it, but obv you can withdraw that if you change your mind.

It's okay, but I think scum can heavily manipulate it. I think it only helps if we get a counterclaim eventually, which is harder to get if we claim.

Also, your probabilities look alright enough, and they certainly point to a high chance of scum!neighbor. But if we're lynching there...I think I want to lynch EFHW. Which is sad because I was just trying to not nullread them...but they're the scummiest of the 3.

I didn't get to look further into Glooble, by the way, I'll try to do it today but don't expect anything, I'm somewhat tired.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: silverspawn on June 16, 2019, 06:04:06 pm
EFHW? No way. Is that just based on day 1?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: MiX on June 16, 2019, 06:07:24 pm
EFHW? No way. Is that just based on day 1?

It's based on my bigger townreads on ash and Swan. I would probably lynch Swan instead given everyone else's reads, but I don't think it's implausible for scum!EFHW to do this. Then again, I haven't played with such, only read past games, and what I remember is that she was good at it, so maybe I'm just scared.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: silverspawn on June 16, 2019, 06:14:01 pm
How confident are in your ash read, and how experience do you have playing with him that you base this on?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: ashersky on June 16, 2019, 06:34:48 pm
Didnít your probabilities post tell scum how many PRs they should fake claim?

Is there a way to hide the useful PRs in this plan of yours?  Like, if you are a PGO, donít claim?  To me, nullifying the usefulness of any (or all, depending) PRs is not worth an easily manipulated claim scheme that doesnít help me narrow down much of anything, considering I have my reads and the PR probabilities donít change them.

If Iím incorrect, correct me. But if thereís some magic number of claims that renders your plan useless, I assume scum can figure it out. Heck, if SS is scum, he already did and had this plan hatched from the beginning to pull off an epic scum rolefish. (Which, if true, bravo for the audacity and glory.)
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: silverspawn on June 16, 2019, 06:44:33 pm
if we only claim non-VT, then scum doesn't know who the useful PRs are, and if they kill a PR at random, they risk dying.

Quote
But if thereís some magic number of claims that renders your plan useless, I assume scum can figure it out.

Yeah, but there isn't. There's some behavior that's optimal for scum, but nothing that will magically prevent all utility we can get from this.

I'm pretty sure massclaiming is the right play, if anything the question is whether we do it today or tomorrow.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: MiX on June 16, 2019, 06:46:33 pm
Didnít your probabilities post tell scum how many PRs they should fake claim?

Is there a way to hide the useful PRs in this plan of yours?  Like, if you are a PGO, donít claim?  To me, nullifying the usefulness of any (or all, depending) PRs is not worth an easily manipulated claim scheme that doesnít help me narrow down much of anything, considering I have my reads and the PR probabilities donít change them.

If Iím incorrect, correct me. But if thereís some magic number of claims that renders your plan useless, I assume scum can figure it out. Heck, if SS is scum, he already did and had this plan hatched from the beginning to pull off an epic scum rolefish. (Which, if true, bravo for the audacity and glory.)

I don't think it requires a lot of thought to think that pushing a scum narrative with a lot of town PRs requires less town PR claims and vice versa. I don't think the probabilities did anything else for scum, it sure said how the odds of there being scum are higher than 50%, which is something I didn't think was true.

PGO should definitely claim, and I think even roleblocker should, but overall the plan's very flimsy. I'm fully against it now.

How confident are in your ash read, and how experience do you have playing with him that you base this on?

Not well enough, I think I only played one game with them as non-scum and they were scum? I thought "acting like ash" was towny, it turned out to be scummy. So now I think ash acting like ash is scummy. I don't remember seeing a lot (well, too much) of this in this game, so I think they're town. Besides, the plan talk sounds flat out risky as scum!ash, given they said the same thing when they were scum. Otherwise, no, I don't have much confidence in my read.

PPE: I can't see what information we gain, scum has so much freedom to claim anything they want.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: silverspawn on June 16, 2019, 07:01:43 pm
What are you two talking about? The PGO should definitely not claim. They become useless if they claim. We want scum to not-know who is the PGO so that they either risk losing a member if they kill someone or don't even try.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on June 16, 2019, 07:05:55 pm
What are you two talking about? The PGO should definitely not claim. They become useless if they claim. We want scum to not-know who is the PGO so that they either risk losing a member if they kill someone or don't even try.


I think they're saying "PGO should claim" as in "in a VT/non-VT claim, PGO should honestly claim not VT" not as in "PGO should full-claim"
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: silverspawn on June 16, 2019, 07:18:34 pm
ok, then yes. But every non-VT should claim non-VT. The massclaim becomes useless very quickly if we have PRs claiming VT. Pretty sure that's worse than not having any claim.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: ashersky on June 16, 2019, 07:20:02 pm
Depending on scum numbers, they win just by killing VTs.  They just dodge all PRs, negating the utility of our only possible killing role. Depending on the number of PR claims, that could really lead us into ruin.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: ashersky on June 16, 2019, 07:23:56 pm
Best case scenario we are 4 v 8, right? 

Mislynch + NK means 4 v 6, takes 4 to lynch. Traitor claims, lynch claimed PR. No kill, game over.

PRs are pretty key, whomever is left. Plan is bad.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: ashersky on June 16, 2019, 07:25:41 pm
Survivor probably claims and joins scum and completely ensures the scum win, if they exist.

Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: ashersky on June 16, 2019, 07:27:37 pm
What does third party claim in your plan if they are survivor?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: EFHW on June 16, 2019, 07:39:10 pm
I don't see the benefit in the plan.

We're only hearing from half of town. Hopefully we'll hear from more people after the weekend.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: DatSwan on June 16, 2019, 08:03:57 pm
OK well that is a lot of relevant stuff since I last checked in... I am just going to respond to stuff as I go in this post...


He's the 9ne who didn't suggest or object to anyone  and who was the strongest against claiming.

The other one was ashersky,  who was also against claiming.

- I stand by my point about not claiming. I very much still believe you have made a mistake. Or your skum. But I am somehow still wanting to believe mistake.
- To further that, I laid out my reasoning in pretty damn detailed view in the QT. EFHW could of spoke up there. If they were suspicious of me, I see how they would not want to do that.


ashersky not coming forward after I claimed and after the pr argument was negated without protest makes me think he doesn't want it known that he is in the neighborhood,  either.

- The PR argument is negated because you claimed.
- I didn't want to be known either, you claimed for both of me and Ash. Why is it less likely he wanted to be known than me?


ashersky not coming forward after I claimed and after the pr argument was negated without protest makes me think he doesn't want it known that he is in the neighborhood,  either.

Well, no, I didnít. I didnít want it known you were in it either.  At this point, town neighborsí best role is to draw NKs away from remaining town PRs. Now, I canít, and since I was townreading you, you canít either. I think your claim was a mistake, but a town-reasoning-driven one.

I also noted Datswan didnít suggest any targets. I was enjoying watching their posts as if they werenít neighbor and I wondered where it would go.

- Annoyingly agree with Ashes.
- In regards to me posting like I would in a private QT, please check any Skum, hood, or any form of shared QT I have had in the last year or so... I am very pro information sharing and when I have a shared thread I just pretty much use it instead of my private QT.
- Also, By the time I checked into the thread the people that had been brought up were Mix, Joth, Glooble. I responded to MiX because I knew how I felt at the time, and then by the time I had a chance to go and read Glooble and Joth... one of you brought up Eddie, who I was way more on board with than the other options presented. So, it is correct that I did not bring up anyone as a potential target, but to be fair, by the time I got a chance to respond you two had already elected like 40+% of the alive field that were not the 3 of us.


Short probabilities post. Let's assume no 3d party neighbor. What is the probability p of having two additional town members? It depends on how many PRs scum picked. If it's ...

... 4, then p = 28.6%  (6 * 2/7 * 1/6)
... 3, then p = 14.3%  (3 * 2/7 * 1/6)
... 2, then p = 04.8%  (1 * 2/7 * 1/6)
... 1, then p = 00.0%
I suck at the maths. What is the probability of skum being there is a Survivor? * kept reading found the post you already have made with this math*


I would suspect that scum probably did choose 4 PRs, because if you're going to make one of your scum buddies a neighbor, then you want a lot of town neighbors. In that world, there are 4 roles chosen and one of them is a neighbor. The probbiality of that is 57.1%. The most likely case. This sounds like a reasonable guess.
- I agree that skum would choose 4 but for different reasons. From a skum pov I feel like the must have role is traitor knows mafia followed by skum PGO. That's 2 there. From there on out, they could come up with a ton of good combos which they would have to weight against the potential downside of the roles Town would get in return. This opens up a ton of options for roles that would not, by themselves, seem viable options. Example would be, Traitor Knows Skum + Skum PGO, then they decide to put Skum in the Hood.... VT cop is fantastic for them there. They are gonna be able to remove 2-3 players from the PR list just because of the Hood, then they get the lynches, kills, and VT checks. With a Hood of 3 players, they would start Day 2 with all town flips (which I assume anyone assumes of any faction to the start of Day 2), with 10 players alive - 3/10 are skum, 3/10 are Hood, 1/10 is either VT or not VT... Assuming they get a VT result, they would literally know exactly who all the Town PRs are start of Day 2. <-- That is kind of a specific example, but the point is that if you look at the roles, I do not think skum would be too worked about taking 4 roles because the potential combos they can put together likely would outweigh what Town gets in return.




I guess, in short, it seems if there is a strong likelihood of a neighbor goon then lynching a neighbor is a decent option and a fantastic limit for reread analysis.

- As I mentioned before, I agree with this concept. My current reads though having me doubting it's likelihood of being the case right now {i.e. it would mean EFHW is skum, which I am not sold on).
- Additionally, we could counter this potential play by using the negative. What are our potential play outs?

1) We lynch a Town!Hood Player - Skum kills outside the Hood N2 obv, most likely killing a Town player. Not to even factor in any potential of there being an extra Traitor or PGO/SK kills that may happen... that still starts us Day 3 with 4 Mafia Aligned, 1 Third Party, and 3 Town Aligned. Because 1/4 Mafia aligned would be Traitor, I am guessing the game would not just end... but that is like a super shitty situation. Then we move onto what... Pray there is Skum in the Hood and try there again, or take essentially the same odds on out of Hood Skum the next day?
2) We lynch a Skum!Hood Player - Obviously a huge upside. If there is skum, and we get them, we instantly get 2 ICs. 1 of the ICs will die at night, followed by the other... but that is a whole Day 3 with 1x IC and 2 Nights of kills from skum that leave Town PRs alive. *while that sounds awesome, it is also my priority case on why I do not think EFHW is Skum - that right there is a hell of a gamble for Skum to take at this point*
3) Alternatively, we could lynch outside of the Hood. Not saying we leave the Hood as ICs, Not saying we don't eventually come to think the Hood is IC's... we could just not look there for right now. There is a 33.33% chance of finding skum in the Hood (if skum is in the Hood). If there is Skum in the Hood, there is a 28.6% chance of finding skum outside of the Hood. However, if the Hood is all Town, there is a 42.8% chance of finding skum outside of the Hood and a 0% chance of finding Skum inside the Hood. Because we do not know which is true, I think we should look outside of the Hood for today's lynch.


Reasonably certain these are correct. Anyone want to verify?

Unfortunately, this makes the case less strong and I'm now no longer certain I want to lynch between ash and DatSwan. Probably still like a PR / non PR claim.
ash and DatSwan said they didn't want to claim because it narrows down who has prs. They have been quite definite about that. You have the opposite plan, which is to completely reveal who has prs. But you don't find them scummy for basing such strong resistance on an argument you feel is unimportant?
- Completely different. Or at least it is for me, I can't speak for Ash. I did not want it to be easier for skum to know who to select for kill targets based on the concept that there potentially is an all Town Hood. If there is an all Town Hood, you have told them who is in it. This limits their kill pool from 7 down to 4. Of those 4, 1 of them are traitor. Of the remaining 3, 1-3 of them are town PRs. You have created a situation where claiming VT vs not VT has a very small liklihood of actually hurting Town. Although, tbh, I don't really see a huge upside of it either.


PPE: A lot
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: DatSwan on June 16, 2019, 08:31:27 pm
I don't see the benefit in the plan.

We're only hearing from half of town. Hopefully we'll hear from more people after the weekend.

The issue I have with this plan is how easily it can be manipulated by Skum. They know how many PRs are in play, but we do not. That makes the order of the claim very important. We have no IC. How do we choose an order? I guess we could do like sign up list or something like that but even then... what is the upside we hope for?
If there are only 3 Town PR rolls, skum will just claim to be PR, putting that player 1/4 in a CC situation if we choose that pool... which we wouldn't even have to do because there could actually be 4 Town Rolls (the same scales down if there are only 2 or 1 town rolls, and again... we don't know, but skum does). Unless there is literally only 1 Town Roll, skum would never choose to go all VT claim, as with 1 PR roll they could all claim VT and leave themselves 3-4/7 in the VT pool, but even with just two Town PRs it would put them at 3-5/6. They are both bad, but in the first option if skum is in the Hood it would have them at 2 Mafia and 1-2 Traitors , which is right on the break even line.

If we do the VT/Not VT claim Skum will almost assuredly have 1-2 of them claim to be a PR because  we as Town have no way of assigning a second claim order to try and safely catch skum in a lie, as well as they know how many roles exist so they will be able to use the situation to create the pools of the size they want. 
There is no downside to me pointing this out - it is the clear play. If there are 3+ Town PR Rolls then we will have to flip a coin on which pool to pick from, and then from there we will have between a 20%-33% chance in finding skum, based upon which pool we pick and how many roles there are. If there are less than 3 Town PR rolls, it is just a bad play. The math doesn't even matter based on the amount of maneuverability it allows skum.

We know at a minimum though that there are at least 2 skum and at least 1 Traitor (additionally, possibly another traitor and the potential SK) all in the NOT HOOD pool. If we get rid of the second traitor and the the SK options, that still leaves 3/7 chance of skum - which is 42.8%. We have a better chance right now of lynching skum focusing on the NOT HOOD lynch pool than we could realistically have of creating two pools based on VT vs not VT. So I do not see the point in claiming.

Ash - do you have any thoughts on this?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: gkrieg13 on June 16, 2019, 09:10:38 pm
I donít support the plan to claim. I think knowing the people in the neighborhood is important, but I think we should lunch outside the neighborhood for today. Silvers point much earlier that lynching scum in the neighborhood creates ICs is not that great because we get one IC in the best case at this point. I think we have better odds outside the neighborhood even if scum is in the neighborhood?  I havenít been reading super closely so it is possible someone has already brought this up.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: EFHW on June 16, 2019, 10:06:10 pm
DatSwan,  you keep criticizing me for claiming, but in the qt analysis you are referencing, you said (paraphrasing here) that in the case of scum in neighborhood, claiming is good. I felt there was a good chance of one of you being scum. I don't have a town read on ash, either. He feels more careful than usual.

Also, protecting prs is usually a high priority, but the prs in this game don't seem worth the importance you are giving them.

I'm sorry if you felt betrayed.  I carefully didn't actually promise or agree to anything in the qt. Sharing a qt feels like comraderie, but with unknown alignments it can't really be that.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: DatSwan on June 16, 2019, 11:22:03 pm
DatSwan,  you keep criticizing me for claiming, but in the qt analysis you are referencing, you said (paraphrasing here) that in the case of scum in neighborhood, claiming is good. I felt there was a good chance of one of you being scum. I don't have a town read on ash, either. He feels more careful than usual.

Also, protecting prs is usually a high priority, but the prs in this game don't seem worth the importance you are giving them.

I'm sorry if you felt betrayed.  I carefully didn't actually promise or agree to anything in the qt. Sharing a qt feels like comraderie, but with unknown alignments it can't really be that.

Yeah if itís any condolence i am trying to make it clear i donít like your play but also donít think it means your skum.

Also, to the point of me saying skum in hood = claim is good is our difference of opinion. You think there is and i donít think there is enough evidence to support it. I see the claim From your POV and how it could be good (i disagree with it), but i do see it.

That being said, if you are town, i would ask you to try to look at things from my POV - in which you forcing the claim is like exactly what i would expect skum to do in this spot when you know your hood mates donít want to claim.

What do you think of my logic of looking outside the hood?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: DatSwan on June 17, 2019, 01:18:14 am
DatSwan,  you keep criticizing me for claiming, but in the qt analysis you are referencing, you said (paraphrasing here) that in the case of scum in neighborhood, claiming is good. I felt there was a good chance of one of you being scum. I don't have a town read on ash, either. He feels more careful than usual.

Also, protecting prs is usually a high priority, but the prs in this game don't seem worth the importance you are giving them.

I'm sorry if you felt betrayed.  I carefully didn't actually promise or agree to anything in the qt. Sharing a qt feels like comraderie, but with unknown alignments it can't really be that.

Also, just so it is said - if my criticizing comes off as crass, I apologize, it is not intentional. I am evidently incapable of phrasing my thoughts into a polite manner when I get worked up.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: silverspawn on June 17, 2019, 03:43:40 am
I donít support the plan to claim. I think knowing the people in the neighborhood is important, but I think we should lunch outside the neighborhood for today. Silvers point much earlier that lynching scum in the neighborhood creates ICs is not that great because we get one IC in the best case at this point. I think we have better odds outside the neighborhood even if scum is in the neighborhood?  I havenít been reading super closely so it is possible someone has already brought this up.

Just saying it's only 1 IC because scum will kill the other is not a useful way to look at it, because in drawing a NK the IC is already useful, protecting the PRs. We get 2 ICs. And we have watched and bodyguard potential as well.

For the probability you seem to be mistaken, see DatSwan's post.

Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: silverspawn on June 17, 2019, 03:44:32 am
What does third party claim in your plan if they are survivor?

If they are willing to cooperate, then third party. If they're not, then whatever they want.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: silverspawn on June 17, 2019, 03:47:09 am
If they want to cooperate a little bit but don't want to reveal themselves, then VT. That's definitely better for us than PR.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: ashersky on June 17, 2019, 03:59:45 am
So a scum-aligned 3rd party, be it a traitor or survivor who thinks mafia is the way to go can also mess with your plan, not just the actual scum? 

Cool. Cool cool cool.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: silverspawn on June 17, 2019, 04:48:19 am
In other news, a player who helps mafia is bad for town.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: MiX on June 17, 2019, 05:24:19 am
In other news, a player who helps mafia is bad for town.

To be fair, survivor will pretty much always side with mafia if we mislynch today (and town gets NKd). It's not their fault either, we just enter a 5-5 if that happens. Then there's SK, which I suppose wouldn't do it but also cuts town's winrate by a lot, and traitor who has no choice.

So has everyone reached the "lynch outside the hood" scenario? Of those, who would we lynch? Can I remention our boy Glooble, sitting there scumreading Swan for literally nothing alignment indicative (and even pushing ADK for something from a previous game) all of day 1?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: silverspawn on June 17, 2019, 05:26:49 am
To be fair, survivor will pretty much always side with mafia if we mislynch today

No. That depends on the survivor. Some survivors don't just have winning as a goal, but would rather win with town.

So has everyone reached the "lynch outside the hood" scenario?

No no no. We lynch DatSwan or ash
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: faust on June 17, 2019, 05:27:37 am
Vote Count 2.4

jotheonah (2): 2.71828....., gkrieg13
MiX (2): jotheonah, Glooble
mcmcsalot (2): DatSwan, silverspawn
Glooble (1): MiX
ashersky (1): pubby

Not Voting (4): mcmcsalot, EFHW, ashersky, pingpongsam

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch. Day 2 ends on June 19, 2019, 10:10:00 am.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: silverspawn on June 17, 2019, 05:27:41 am
Two people in the neighborhood said they wanted to lynch outside of the neighborhood and that swayed your opinion?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: MiX on June 17, 2019, 05:32:41 am
To be fair, survivor will pretty much always side with mafia if we mislynch today

No. That depends on the survivor. Some survivors don't just have winning as a goal, but would rather win with town.

If they want to win, they'll...want to win. It's much safer. I'm not even going to attempt to see a scenario where someone doesn't take the winning move.

Two people in the neighborhood said they wanted to lynch outside of the neighborhood and that swayed your opinion?

No, I always had this opinion.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: ashersky on June 17, 2019, 05:41:10 am
To be fair, survivor will pretty much always side with mafia if we mislynch today

No. That depends on the survivor. Some survivors don't just have winning as a goal, but would rather win with town.

Then that's literally playing against your own wincon, which is crappy at the least and super crappy at the worst.  It also makes it hard for town to know how to make the right play.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: ashersky on June 17, 2019, 05:41:30 am
Two people in the neighborhood said they wanted to lynch outside of the neighborhood and that swayed your opinion?

Which two people in the hood said that?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: ashersky on June 17, 2019, 05:43:49 am
I'm getting a stronger and stronger feeling that SS is scum leading this game to a scum win.

A plan to out all town PRs with tons of holes in it pointed out by multiple players which he continually ignores.
Blatant mischaracterizations of some players' statements.
A seemingly misleading push to tie the PR outing plan to lynching within the neighborhood.

Remember, scum already knows everything.  Scum can plan accordingly, or even make the plan.  SS is posting like he already knows everything.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: ashersky on June 17, 2019, 05:44:53 am
In other news, a player who helps mafia is bad for town.

And yet, how will we know who that player is?  Oh right, we won't, which is why your you can't sufficiently account for it, or any other anti-town actions taken in your plan.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: silverspawn on June 17, 2019, 06:01:34 am
Two people in the neighborhood said they wanted to lynch outside of the neighborhood and that swayed your opinion?

Which two people in the hood said that?

DatSwan and  I thought you said it, too, but I could be wrong.

To be fair, survivor will pretty much always side with mafia if we mislynch today

No. That depends on the survivor. Some survivors don't just have winning as a goal, but would rather win with town.

Then that's literally playing against your own wincon, which is crappy at the least and super crappy at the worst.  It also makes it hard for town to know how to make the right play.

Whether or not you disapprove of it, there are people who don't just play for their own wincon as survivor. I know because I'm one of them. This is documented.

Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: silverspawn on June 17, 2019, 06:04:32 am
The reason I'm not laying out in detail how creating buckets benefits town is that I would have to go in detail and that might help scum make better decisions during the massclaim.

The benefits should really be obvious. You guys have all played mafia before. We get claims, we analyze them, we find things that are suspicious. Most of the time scum doesn't play perfectly and claims themselves into a bad scenario. Most likely we end up with a situation where we have several subsets of players and can say with fairly high confidence that one scum is in each. We find them, we get ICs. There's a reason why sensor is never used; creating these kinds of sets is too strong for PR.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: silverspawn on June 17, 2019, 06:05:58 am
I admit that I have considered you being scum based on not seeing that claiming is a good idea, but the more benign explanation is that your intuition is wrong.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: ashersky on June 17, 2019, 06:15:38 am
I both like claims in general and readily concede that there are benefits to your claiming plan.

My contention (intuition) is that this specific plan (VT/not-VT claiming) is too easily manipulated by scum AND an unknown third party (unless you are the survivor who wants to win with town even if that means you lose, so that's why you feel so sure?).

Do you see any world in which you want to lynch anyone from outside the hood?  Because if not, there's no reason to claim, as there are no possible counterclaims, so nothing to really lynch on.

So those are my points.  Seems too easily manipulated and seems to have no impact on a neighborhood lynch.  It's probably has some utility if we are lynching outside of the hood?  But I doubt it.

At any rate, you definitely don't have consensus, right or wrong.  I assume more voices will come?  Or lurkers will just lurk it out.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: MiX on June 17, 2019, 06:18:14 am
The reason I'm not laying out in detail how creating buckets benefits town is that I would have to go in detail and that might help scum make better decisions during the massclaim.

The benefits should really be obvious. You guys have all played mafia before. We get claims, we analyze them, we find things that are suspicious. Most of the time scum doesn't play perfectly and claims themselves into a bad scenario. Most likely we end up with a situation where we have several subsets of players and can say with fairly high confidence that one scum is in each. We find them, we get ICs. There's a reason why sensor is never used; creating these kinds of sets is too strong for PR.

There's 5 people fakeclaiming. We don't know how many PRs there are, but scum does. Groups will most likely have more than 1 scum in them. We can't fully determine how much scum are in each group unless they seriously screw it up. This basically gives scum a bunch of information while giving town very little to work with. I can't see how this seperation of players helps lynching scum.

PPE: Oh you want to lynch in hood? What's your top scumread there?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: silverspawn on June 17, 2019, 06:26:02 am
clearly, there is no unity on the claiming plan, so we don't claim today. Let's just lynch whoever is scummiest then.

PPE: Oh you want to lynch in hood? What's your top scumread there?

ash or datswan. I'll tell you after an ISO of datswan that will occur at an uknonwn point before the deadline.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: ashersky on June 17, 2019, 07:48:02 am
MiX seems towny today, mostly due to SS.  That's...so strange.

I was scumreading from D1 into N1.

Maybe it's the overt sheeping/lack of self-confidence in the MiX posts recently?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Glooble on June 17, 2019, 08:15:28 am
MiX seems towny today, mostly due to SS.  That's...so strange.

I was scumreading from D1 into N1.

Maybe it's the overt sheeping/lack of self-confidence in the MiX posts recently?

I found MiX scummy day 1, but I gave him a pass because I *always* scumread him, and he wasn't acting significantly *more* scummy than the baseline.

Today he's been giving off an even scummier vibe, so I've decided just to go with my gut.

All this math stuff is giving me a bit of a headache, but I'm not particularly scumreading anyone in the neighborhood right now, so I guess I'm in favor of lynching outside the hood just sort of by default.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Glooble on June 17, 2019, 08:16:16 am
Also not sure where you're getting lack of confidence- he seems pretty damn confident that I'm scum based on tissue paper evidence.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: ashersky on June 17, 2019, 09:15:11 am
Also not sure where you're getting lack of confidence- he seems pretty damn confident that I'm scum based on tissue paper evidence.

I think it just seems to me like he's deferring to SS on everything SS-related.

Maybe that's what I'm sensing.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on June 17, 2019, 09:19:35 am
I'm getting a stronger and stronger feeling that SS is scum leading this game to a scum win.

A plan to out all town PRs with tons of holes in it pointed out by multiple players which he continually ignores.
Blatant mischaracterizations of some players' statements.
A seemingly misleading push to tie the PR outing plan to lynching within the neighborhood.

Remember, scum already knows everything.  Scum can plan accordingly, or even make the plan.  SS is posting like he already knows everything.

Ok but, does scum actually ever do this? I feel like I am very susceptible to suspecting that a town person who is leading is scum... but I canít recall ever actually seeing it. IRL, scum is almost always sitting back and playing reactively, since itís so hard to know how town will react to a claiming plan.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on June 17, 2019, 09:21:35 am
And furthermore, ďclaim pushing is scummyĒ isnít an argument Iíd expect from town!ash who is usually such a grounded realist when I suggest that scum is doing a crazy gambit. So that post really makes me want to vote: ash.

I still think that if there turns out to be scum in the neighborhood I want to lynch MiX next.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: MiX on June 17, 2019, 09:38:22 am
Also not sure where you're getting lack of confidence- he seems pretty damn confident that I'm scum based on tissue paper evidence.

I think it just seems to me like he's deferring to SS on everything SS-related.

Maybe that's what I'm sensing.

I'm against claiming *and* against lynching in hood. So what do you mean by this?

And furthermore, ďclaim pushing is scummyĒ isnít an argument Iíd expect from town!ash who is usually such a grounded realist when I suggest that scum is doing a crazy gambit. So that post really makes me want to vote: ash.

I still think that if there turns out to be scum in the neighborhood I want to lynch MiX next.

Isn't it easier to lynch non-town outside the hood regardless? There's at least 3 scum out of 9 here, sounds better than hood. And scum would just start "scumreading" someone in it? You know, like what you're doing? But I like your case.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: ashersky on June 17, 2019, 09:50:03 am
Ok but, does scum actually ever do this? I feel like I am very susceptible to suspecting that a town person who is leading is scum... but I canít recall ever actually seeing it. IRL, scum is almost always sitting back and playing reactively, since itís so hard to know how town will react to a claiming plan.

Yes, I do it all the time.  At least, I used to.  So does gkrieg, so does faust, I'm sure a few others.


And furthermore, ďclaim pushing is scummyĒ isnít an argument Iíd expect from town!ash who is usually such a grounded realist when I suggest that scum is doing a crazy gambit. So that post really makes me want to vote: ash.

I still think that if there turns out to be scum in the neighborhood I want to lynch MiX next.

What are you talking about?  Grounded realist?  What?

I'm literally the scum doing the crazy gambit every game.  And claim pushing is scummy this game because it appears to be a negative utility move for town.  Even SS has agreed that claiming should be put off for now.  He basically backed off his plan when he didn't get enough traction.  That's also the move scum would pull there (as would town).

I'm honestly just confused by you here.  I'd say it was scummy if it made any sense, but it doesn't.  So I guess it's not?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: ashersky on June 17, 2019, 09:54:32 am
Time for a popsquiz, which I would suggest for everyone.

Signup list order:

Townish:
glooble, pps, efhw, gkrieg

Nullish:
MiX, DatSwan, joth, 2.7

Scummish:
mcmc, pubby, ss

Upgrades from D1: MiX, Glooble
Downgrades from D1: DatSwan, mcmc, ss

Mcmc did not impress in his tiny return.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: gkrieg13 on June 17, 2019, 10:06:13 am
Iím almost positive ash is town here. Giving reads and thoughtful reactions to plans while not getting too overly emotional about votes on him is not his scum persona at least.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: MiX on June 17, 2019, 10:09:10 am
Ash, can you say why Glooble got an upgrade?

Iím almost positive ash is town here. Giving reads and thoughtful reactions to plans while not getting too overly emotional about votes on him is not his scum persona at least.

What have you done this game? I forgot.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: silverspawn on June 17, 2019, 10:14:55 am
I'm getting a stronger and stronger feeling that SS is scum leading this game to a scum win.

A plan to out all town PRs with tons of holes in it pointed out by multiple players which he continually ignores.
Blatant mischaracterizations of some players' statements.
A seemingly misleading push to tie the PR outing plan to lynching within the neighborhood.

Remember, scum already knows everything.  Scum can plan accordingly, or even make the plan.  SS is posting like he already knows everything.

Ok but, does scum actually ever do this? I feel like I am very susceptible to suspecting that a town person who is leading is scum... but I canít recall ever actually seeing it. IRL, scum is almost always sitting back and playing reactively, since itís so hard to know how town will react to a claiming plan.

There is one infamous game of faust leading and everyone following. But I can't remember any other example.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on June 17, 2019, 10:16:48 am
Ok but, does scum actually ever do this? I feel like I am very susceptible to suspecting that a town person who is leading is scum... but I canít recall ever actually seeing it. IRL, scum is almost always sitting back and playing reactively, since itís so hard to know how town will react to a claiming plan.

Yes, I do it all the time.  At least, I used to.  So does gkrieg, so does faust, I'm sure a few others.


And furthermore, ďclaim pushing is scummyĒ isnít an argument Iíd expect from town!ash who is usually such a grounded realist when I suggest that scum is doing a crazy gambit. So that post really makes me want to vote: ash.

I still think that if there turns out to be scum in the neighborhood I want to lynch MiX next.

What are you talking about?  Grounded realist?  What?

I'm literally the scum doing the crazy gambit every game.  And claim pushing is scummy this game because it appears to be a negative utility move for town.  Even SS has agreed that claiming should be put off for now.  He basically backed off his plan when he didn't get enough traction.  That's also the move scum would pull there (as would town).

I'm honestly just confused by you here.  I'd say it was scummy if it made any sense, but it doesn't.  So I guess it's not?

Humor me. Show me some games where scum actually came out trying to lead town and pushing for a mass claim. Bonus points if it actually worked.

Itís possible Iím remembering things wrong, but my sense of you Ash is a person who has been around the block and knows the difference between scummy things and things actual scum does. But maybe Iím the one whose sense of this is wrong.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: silverspawn on June 17, 2019, 10:19:37 am
Even ss has agreed that claiming should be put off for now.  He basically backed off his plan when he didn't get enough traction.  That's also the move scum would pull there (as would town).

I'm honestly just confused by you here.  I'd say it was scummy if it made any sense, but it doesn't.  So I guess it's not?

This interpretation is totally unnecessarily sinister, and it's also completely false. I'm backing off the plan because it's not pro town to insisting on a claim if it won't be done. That would just be irrational.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: silverspawn on June 17, 2019, 10:21:52 am
EBWOP I guess actually said that town would do it too, so nvm.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: ashersky on June 17, 2019, 10:23:13 am
Even ss has agreed that claiming should be put off for now.  He basically backed off his plan when he didn't get enough traction.  That's also the move scum would pull there (as would town).

I'm honestly just confused by you here.  I'd say it was scummy if it made any sense, but it doesn't.  So I guess it's not?

This interpretation is totally unnecessarily sinister, and it's also completely false. I'm backing off the plan because it's not pro town to insisting on a claim if it won't be done. That would just be irrational.

I didn't mean for it to be sinister.  I just meant to show how it could fit a scum narrative, which also clearly including the possibility for a town narrative.

The second line is about joth, which I assume you knew?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: silverspawn on June 17, 2019, 10:24:45 am
The second line is about joth, which I assume you knew?

Yeah, sorry. I got mildly upset and then didn't read (and didn't quote) your post properly.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: ashersky on June 17, 2019, 10:30:23 am
Ok but, does scum actually ever do this? I feel like I am very susceptible to suspecting that a town person who is leading is scum... but I canít recall ever actually seeing it. IRL, scum is almost always sitting back and playing reactively, since itís so hard to know how town will react to a claiming plan.

Yes, I do it all the time.  At least, I used to.  So does gkrieg, so does faust, I'm sure a few others.


And furthermore, ďclaim pushing is scummyĒ isnít an argument Iíd expect from town!ash who is usually such a grounded realist when I suggest that scum is doing a crazy gambit. So that post really makes me want to vote: ash.

I still think that if there turns out to be scum in the neighborhood I want to lynch MiX next.

What are you talking about?  Grounded realist?  What?

I'm literally the scum doing the crazy gambit every game.  And claim pushing is scummy this game because it appears to be a negative utility move for town.  Even SS has agreed that claiming should be put off for now.  He basically backed off his plan when he didn't get enough traction.  That's also the move scum would pull there (as would town).

I'm honestly just confused by you here.  I'd say it was scummy if it made any sense, but it doesn't.  So I guess it's not?

Humor me. Show me some games where scum actually came out trying to lead town and pushing for a mass claim. Bonus points if it actually worked.

Itís possible Iím remembering things wrong, but my sense of you Ash is a person who has been around the block and knows the difference between scummy things and things actual scum does. But maybe Iím the one whose sense of this is wrong.

Your question (I thought) was if scum ever came out and lead town actively, which I strongly believe happens often.  As to what extent leading is happening is probably a subjective opinion, there may not be consensus on which games are where, but I'm guessing many of my scum performances, especially MVP ones, would have examples of folks just doing what I suggest.

As for me as a person, I probably do come off as a grouchy old veteran more often than necessary.  Maybe we just disagree on this point regarding what scum would do vs. what is a scummy thing.  Regarding SS and his claiming plan, I was providing a possible scum narrative there.  I don't think there's much in the way of scum reads on him, which may or may not be dangerous.  (My gut actually has me feeling like he might be third party, given that one post by him.)  He definitely could be town, in the same way that EFHW could be scum outing the hood (for some reason) or town doing what she felt is best (which is where I fall).  I'm just keeping a wary eye out, as scum!SS has burned me before.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: ashersky on June 17, 2019, 10:31:48 am
Ash, can you say why Glooble got an upgrade?

Recent posts felt towny.  Glooble and I aren't exactly the best match (thinking back on our first few games together), but I think we've sort of figured each other out at this point.  Glooble may disagree?

I think I felt like his reactions were genuine, which was enough to bump him up.

No popsquiz from you? (or anyone else?)
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on June 17, 2019, 10:33:21 am
Here's another way to think about it:

How bad is it for scum if they do have one person in the neighborhood and we lynch within the neighborhood?
How good is it for them if the neighborhood is all town and we lynch within the neighborhood?

I think if B were true we'd have someone strongly advocating for that, since it guarantees a waste of several lynches AND keeps the lynch from hitting the traitor in the event that mafia doesn't know who they are (the traitor can't be a neighbor, right?). I think if A were true we'd see someone strongly advocating for lynching outside the neighborhood, since even though 1/3 = 3/9 mathematically, in reality having six options for mislynch is very much preferably to having 2, especially when one of those two is EFHW, who everyone seems to be generally townreading.

Anyway, what we've seen is nobody, except maybe silver, pushing particularly hard for lynching in neighborhood. DatSwan, gkrieg, and MiX have all advocated somewhat strongly for lynching outside of it.

PPE: a whole bunch
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on June 17, 2019, 10:38:03 am
Also unvote. Did a little rereading and sort of unconvinced myself about ash vs silver.

I don't have a lot of reads I feel solid about this game, but for fun:

Townish:
glooble, 2.7, efhw

IDKish*:
ash, silverspawn, gkrieg

Nullish:
pps

Scummish:
MiX, pubby, DatSwan

*IDKish means I sometimes scumread and sometimes townread, whereas nullish means I'm gettin nothin either way.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Glooble on June 17, 2019, 10:38:41 am
My initial thought when SS suggested the claiming plan was that he might be the tracker reporter, but that seemed a little on-the-nose. I feel like if he had that role silver would be more subtle. But it's worth pointing out the possibility- if someone wants all the PRs to claim, they might just be the role that needs all the PRs dead.

PPE 1: I think I have a much better handle on ash then I did in Imperial Radch mafia, and I'm mostly townreading him this game.

I can do a popsquiz in a bit.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Glooble on June 17, 2019, 10:48:49 am
Townish:
joth, EFHW, ashersky, gkrieg

nullish (because scummy and towny stuff cancels out):
DatSwan, silverspawn, pubby

nullish (because of lurking/ lack of data):
pps, mcmcsalot, e

scummish:
MiX

Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: silverspawn on June 17, 2019, 10:48:55 am
If I were third party, I'd probably claim, I think. In any case, I'm not; I'm town.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: MiX on June 17, 2019, 10:50:14 am
I want to know where the term "popsquiz" comes from. Anyway:

Town:
ss, ash, joth, Swan

Towny:
pps, EFHW

Null:
gkrieg, pubby

Scummy:
mcmc, e?

Scum:
Glooble, e?


Scum tend to fall in the "towny" part, and that's also where I have Glooble, but I'm convinced it's because they're scum. Less so for pps and not at all for EFHW because she's a recent addition to it.

If I were third party, I'd probably claim, I think. In any case, I'm not; I'm town.

Are you a VT?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Glooble on June 17, 2019, 11:03:48 am

Are you a VT?

What possible reason could you have for asking that?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on June 17, 2019, 11:04:22 am
I want to know where the term "popsquiz" comes from.

A player named "popsofctown" who was in the very first games on f.ds
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: silverspawn on June 17, 2019, 11:09:08 am

Are you a VT?

What possible reason could you have for asking that?

more importantly, how would answering that possibly be a good idea?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: silverspawn on June 17, 2019, 11:13:10 am
prod: e
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: pingpongsam on June 17, 2019, 11:17:12 am
I'm basically null on everyone.

If I were really separating buckets I'd put the neighborhood as town for now : EFHW, Ash, and Datswan (of these I feel best about Ash and EFHW in that order)

I think MiX is probstown but still null.

Everyone else is a solid null except for SS who is like a polarizing form of null (joth's IDKish) where I've gotten strong tells from both leanings.

I could be inclined to sheep MiX and vote Glooble. I want to do a deep reread of someone in particular. I don't think the neighbors a good pick (although the fact they are neighbors is helpful in a reread). This sucks because I'd like it to be better than a dart throw but I may just throw a dart after all.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: pingpongsam on June 17, 2019, 11:18:34 am
Dart landed on jotheonah; bbl with something.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Glooble on June 17, 2019, 11:28:36 am
I don't think the neighbors a good pick (although the fact they are neighbors is helpful in a reread).

Just as a note when you're rereading I don't believe the neighbors knew each other's identities until night 1.

faust is this correct?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: MiX on June 17, 2019, 11:31:14 am

Are you a VT?

What possible reason could you have for asking that?

more importantly, how would answering that possibly be a good idea?

The only reason I unvoted ss D1 was because they essencially said they were a third-party. Given what I know of ss that made perfect sense so I backed off. The fact that they aren't means they're either scum or town that has already answered this question, so I want to know which ss we're dealing with here.

Unless someone doesn't know what ss is, in which case there might be scum that don't either, so the question's anti-town.

I don't think the neighbors a good pick (although the fact they are neighbors is helpful in a reread).

Just as a note when you're rereading I don't believe the neighbors knew each other's identities until night 1.

faust is this correct?

That's a good piece of correct information right there.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: faust on June 17, 2019, 11:52:40 am
I don't think the neighbors a good pick (although the fact they are neighbors is helpful in a reread).

Just as a note when you're rereading I don't believe the neighbors knew each other's identities until night 1.

faust is this correct?
Yes.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on June 17, 2019, 12:05:52 pm
ok, but neighbor scum have had the opportunity to tell non-neighbor scum who their neighbors are, right? My last post sorta depends on that.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: MiX on June 17, 2019, 12:07:18 pm
ok, but neighbor scum have had the opportunity to tell non-neighbor scum who their neighbors are, right? My last post sorta depends on that.

Yes, in night 1, why is this important?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: silverspawn on June 17, 2019, 12:57:47 pm
The only reason I unvoted ss D1 was because they essencially said they were a third-party.

I did no such thing. What quote are you referring to?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on June 17, 2019, 01:33:18 pm
ok, but neighbor scum have had the opportunity to tell non-neighbor scum who their neighbors are, right? My last post sorta depends on that.

Yes, in night 1, why is this important?

You ever think about just reading all my posts?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on June 17, 2019, 01:33:46 pm
Here's another way to think about it:

How bad is it for scum if they do have one person in the neighborhood and we lynch within the neighborhood?
How good is it for them if the neighborhood is all town and we lynch within the neighborhood?

I think if B were true we'd have someone strongly advocating for that, since it guarantees a waste of several lynches AND keeps the lynch from hitting the traitor in the event that mafia doesn't know who they are (the traitor can't be a neighbor, right?). I think if A were true we'd see someone strongly advocating for lynching outside the neighborhood, since even though 1/3 = 3/9 mathematically, in reality having six options for mislynch is very much preferably to having 2, especially when one of those two is EFHW, who everyone seems to be generally townreading.

Anyway, what we've seen is nobody, except maybe silver, pushing particularly hard for lynching in neighborhood. DatSwan, gkrieg, and MiX have all advocated somewhat strongly for lynching outside of it.

PPE: a whole bunch
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: MiX on June 17, 2019, 01:40:43 pm
ok, but neighbor scum have had the opportunity to tell non-neighbor scum who their neighbors are, right? My last post sorta depends on that.

Yes, in night 1, why is this important?

You ever think about just reading all my posts?

To be fair, I did read your last post. Also the post you just quoted is a big mess with As and Bs and non-yes-or-no questions followed with "if X were true/false", so you can't expect me to understand everything you're saying in it. And how does scum knowing neighbors N1 impact this? They can solidify their stance on neighbor lynching after they were revealed.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on June 17, 2019, 01:44:14 pm
You misread. The second paragraph was all hypothetical and counter-factual.

The benefit for town is that given the scummy vibes I got, I think the neighborhood could be a good place to look for scum.

The sooner you out them, the faster we can start considering them.

Joth's one of them, and I suspect the other's pubby? Maaaaaybe ss/pps. So if I can figure this out surely scum can, I don't see why you would scumread them and not out them.

Can we talk about whether or not this is a scumslip?

I think a town player would make some mental notes when they see the following post:

@MiX, what is your question? We had a consensus on the vig.

That answers it. Did you propose that idea or had it in mind before N1?

I started with Glooble and joth. One person was hesitant about Glooble and suggested MiX. I didn't want MiX and brought up Eddie. There was consensus from there. The third neighbor didn't suggest or object to anyone. The ease of the consensus made me worry that Eddie was town, but I decided that a scum neighbor could be uncomfortable objecting to a partner. I also couldn't change the target on my own and didn't know the motivations of the non-scum neighbor.

Both felt strongly that we shouldn't claim. I didn't say anything one way or the other.

The way things happened made me concerned that there was indeed scum in the neighborhood and that is why I claimed.

But MiX is convinced I'm a member of the neighborhood. There's no way that's an honest town mistake, because the evidence against it is front and center.

On the other hand, assuming scum!MiX already knew who was in the neighborhood, that would explain why that post didn't register with him and he made that mistake.

vote: MiX
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: gkrieg13 on June 17, 2019, 01:44:38 pm
Here's another way to think about it:

How bad is it for scum if they do have one person in the neighborhood and we lynch within the neighborhood?
How good is it for them if the neighborhood is all town and we lynch within the neighborhood?

I think if B were true we'd have someone strongly advocating for that, since it guarantees a waste of several lynches AND keeps the lynch from hitting the traitor in the event that mafia doesn't know who they are (the traitor can't be a neighbor, right?). I think if A were true we'd see someone strongly advocating for lynching outside the neighborhood, since even though 1/3 = 3/9 mathematically, in reality having six options for mislynch is very much preferably to having 2, especially when one of those two is EFHW, who everyone seems to be generally townreading.

Anyway, what we've seen is nobody, except maybe silver, pushing particularly hard for lynching in neighborhood. DatSwan, gkrieg, and MiX have all advocated somewhat strongly for lynching outside of it.

PPE: a whole bunch

These are good points. I thought there were fewer than 12 people alive, and that we would have better chances lynching outside the neighborhood. Given that I'm not in the neighborhood, there are still higher chances of hitting scum outside the neighborhood for me (which includes the chance of there being a traitor, which I think is the most likely role for 3rd party to choose in this setup).

More than anything, I was just arguing that silver's plan (from a long time ago, when it wasn't really a plan, just speculation before we knew who was in the neighborhood) that it was better to lynch from the neighborhood because when we lynch scum we have a bunch of ICs isn't that great of a plan. There are too many variables and at best, we get one IC. At this point, we would basically just get EFHW as an IC if we were to lynch scum in the neighborhood (which there isn't necessarily), which I would argue is not that big of a deal seeing as she is already pretty townie to everyone.

Hopefully that makes sense.

I also townread ash and EFHW, but am not sure that Datswan is all that scummy either. I think he would be the scum in there if there is one due to POE, but there are scummier people outside the neighborhood.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on June 17, 2019, 01:45:59 pm
ok, but neighbor scum have had the opportunity to tell non-neighbor scum who their neighbors are, right? My last post sorta depends on that.

Yes, in night 1, why is this important?

You ever think about just reading all my posts?

To be fair, I did read your last post. Also the post you just quoted is a big mess with As and Bs and non-yes-or-no questions followed with "if X were true/false", so you can't expect me to understand everything you're saying in it. And how does scum knowing neighbors N1 impact this? They can solidify their stance on neighbor lynching after they were revealed.

Hopefully my post above answers your question. It's very relevant because it confirms to me that you scumslipped.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: gkrieg13 on June 17, 2019, 01:46:44 pm
You misread. The second paragraph was all hypothetical and counter-factual.

The benefit for town is that given the scummy vibes I got, I think the neighborhood could be a good place to look for scum.

The sooner you out them, the faster we can start considering them.

Joth's one of them, and I suspect the other's pubby? Maaaaaybe ss/pps. So if I can figure this out surely scum can, I don't see why you would scumread them and not out them.

Can we talk about whether or not this is a scumslip?

I think a town player would make some mental notes when they see the following post:

@MiX, what is your question? We had a consensus on the vig.

That answers it. Did you propose that idea or had it in mind before N1?

I started with Glooble and joth. One person was hesitant about Glooble and suggested MiX. I didn't want MiX and brought up Eddie. There was consensus from there. The third neighbor didn't suggest or object to anyone. The ease of the consensus made me worry that Eddie was town, but I decided that a scum neighbor could be uncomfortable objecting to a partner. I also couldn't change the target on my own and didn't know the motivations of the non-scum neighbor.

Both felt strongly that we shouldn't claim. I didn't say anything one way or the other.

The way things happened made me concerned that there was indeed scum in the neighborhood and that is why I claimed.

But MiX is convinced I'm a member of the neighborhood. There's no way that's an honest town mistake, because the evidence against it is front and center.

On the other hand, assuming scum!MiX already knew who was in the neighborhood, that would explain why that post didn't register with him and he made that mistake.

vote: MiX

Not sure if this is a scum slip, but it does impact my null read on MiX.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: MiX on June 17, 2019, 01:48:54 pm
ok, but neighbor scum have had the opportunity to tell non-neighbor scum who their neighbors are, right? My last post sorta depends on that.

Yes, in night 1, why is this important?

You ever think about just reading all my posts?

To be fair, I did read your last post. Also the post you just quoted is a big mess with As and Bs and non-yes-or-no questions followed with "if X were true/false", so you can't expect me to understand everything you're saying in it. And how does scum knowing neighbors N1 impact this? They can solidify their stance on neighbor lynching after they were revealed.

Hopefully my post above answers your question. It's very relevant because it confirms to me that you scumslipped.

Oh, so it's relevent not for the previous post, but for the future post, I see.

So I read the post, and your case. I'm assuming the "scumslip" is I didn't see EFHW mention that she wanted joth to be vigged? I'm 100% positive a later post of mine acknowledges that I saw that when naming the neighbor.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: gkrieg13 on June 17, 2019, 01:51:38 pm
Townish:
efhw, ash, silver (I always read him opposite of what he is and it scares me)

Nullish:
joth, 2.7, pps, Glooble

Scummier than null, nullier than scum:
MiX, DatSwan, mcmc, pubby

Scummish:
Need to really reread, because I can't remember people well enough for them to be fully scummish
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on June 17, 2019, 01:52:51 pm
You misread. The second paragraph was all hypothetical and counter-factual.

The benefit for town is that given the scummy vibes I got, I think the neighborhood could be a good place to look for scum.

The sooner you out them, the faster we can start considering them.

Joth's one of them, and I suspect the other's pubby? Maaaaaybe ss/pps. So if I can figure this out surely scum can, I don't see why you would scumread them and not out them.

Joth wanted to vig... himself?

I suppose EFHW wouldn't suggest someone in it, but the way she said the second person didn't want Glooble and said nothing about joth seems like it would be joth. Just wild guessing, which is something scum can do better knowing 4 people that cannot be in the neighborhood. Regardless, scumreading neighbors is pointless if they aren't revealed.

This is the post you're talking about. So your defense is that you honestly thought the three people in the neighborhood were discussing possible targets (for a kill that requires majority consensus) and included one of their own in that discussion? That's pretty weak.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: gkrieg13 on June 17, 2019, 01:55:23 pm
Townish:
efhw, ash, silver (I always read him opposite of what he is and it scares me)

Nullish:
joth, 2.7, pps, Glooble

Scummier than null, nullier than scum:
MiX, DatSwan, mcmc, pubby

Scummish:
Need to really reread, because I can't remember people well enough for them to be fully scummish

Actually from their reads on each other, I put the twins a little bit townier than nullish. Datswan is also just barely in the scummier than null camp, but most of that is due to me townreading the others in the neighborhood and if anyone is scum in the neighborhood, it's Datswan I think.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: silverspawn on June 17, 2019, 01:59:49 pm
@Mix, I want to know where you thought I said that I was third party.

The degree to which that scum slip is not a scum slip is quite enormous.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: MiX on June 17, 2019, 02:00:29 pm
You misread. The second paragraph was all hypothetical and counter-factual.

The benefit for town is that given the scummy vibes I got, I think the neighborhood could be a good place to look for scum.

The sooner you out them, the faster we can start considering them.

Joth's one of them, and I suspect the other's pubby? Maaaaaybe ss/pps. So if I can figure this out surely scum can, I don't see why you would scumread them and not out them.

Joth wanted to vig... himself?

I suppose EFHW wouldn't suggest someone in it, but the way she said the second person didn't want Glooble and said nothing about joth seems like it would be joth. Just wild guessing, which is something scum can do better knowing 4 people that cannot be in the neighborhood. Regardless, scumreading neighbors is pointless if they aren't revealed.

This is the post you're talking about. So your defense is that you honestly thought the three people in the neighborhood were discussing possible targets (for a kill that requires majority consensus) and included one of their own in that discussion? That's pretty weak.

It doesn't fit your narrative, that's for sure. Unless I didn't notice and then noticed it immediatly and decided to rectify it? Sounds like a weak case.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on June 17, 2019, 02:05:38 pm
You misread. The second paragraph was all hypothetical and counter-factual.

The benefit for town is that given the scummy vibes I got, I think the neighborhood could be a good place to look for scum.

The sooner you out them, the faster we can start considering them.

Joth's one of them, and I suspect the other's pubby? Maaaaaybe ss/pps. So if I can figure this out surely scum can, I don't see why you would scumread them and not out them.

Joth wanted to vig... himself?

I suppose EFHW wouldn't suggest someone in it, but the way she said the second person didn't want Glooble and said nothing about joth seems like it would be joth. Just wild guessing, which is something scum can do better knowing 4 people that cannot be in the neighborhood. Regardless, scumreading neighbors is pointless if they aren't revealed.

This is the post you're talking about. So your defense is that you honestly thought the three people in the neighborhood were discussing possible targets (for a kill that requires majority consensus) and included one of their own in that discussion? That's pretty weak.

It doesn't fit your narrative, that's for sure. Unless I didn't notice and then noticed it immediatly and decided to rectify it? Sounds like a weak case.

Haha nice try, but as you can see above you came up with that after Glooble pointed out your mistake, so my narrative works fine.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on June 17, 2019, 02:06:06 pm
The degree to which that scum slip is not a scum slip is quite enormous.

And why is that? Tell me how town makes that mistake.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: silverspawn on June 17, 2019, 02:07:38 pm
The degree to which that scum slip is not a scum slip is quite enormous.

And why is that? Tell me how town makes that mistake.

They don't read EFHW's post properly.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on June 17, 2019, 02:10:45 pm
The degree to which that scum slip is not a scum slip is quite enormous.

And why is that? Tell me how town makes that mistake.

They don't read EFHW's post properly.

So MiX is town who is sincerely interested in guessing who's in the neighborhood, but doesn't take the time to carefully read the ONE post that contains clues to who's in the neighborhood? You must not think much of MiX's play abilities.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: MiX on June 17, 2019, 02:11:15 pm
This defensiveness is, however.

No.

For me this said "it's not scummy because third-pary/PRs want to defend themselves too", otherwise you would've written much more.

Haha nice try, but as you can see above you came up with that after Glooble pointed out your mistake, so my narrative works fine.

In other news I can read and arrive at the same conclusion from reading the same things, no need to point this out. But you have a narrative to push, so fine. Yes, this is true, this is obviously true, and if you ever try to say that scum!me would say what I said above hoping people would forget Glooble's the one that questioned it then you have the polar opposite of what I do as scum. Or anyone, really, who would do this on purpose?

The degree to which that scum slip is not a scum slip is quite enormous.

And why is that? Tell me how town makes that mistake.

They don't read EFHW's post properly.

I did read it, and I thought not mentioning what the second person (ash) thought of joth meant it was joth.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: silverspawn on June 17, 2019, 02:14:15 pm
The degree to which that scum slip is not a scum slip is quite enormous.

And why is that? Tell me how town makes that mistake.

They don't read EFHW's post properly.

So MiX is town who is sincerely interested in guessing who's in the neighborhood, but doesn't take the time to carefully read the ONE post that contains clues to who's in the neighborhood? You must not think much of MiX's play abilities.

All I can say is that this could easily happen to me.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on June 17, 2019, 02:14:48 pm
Yes, this is true, this is obviously true, and if you ever try to say that scum!me would say what I said above hoping people would forget Glooble's the one that questioned it then you have the polar opposite of what I do as scum. Or anyone, really, who would do this on purpose?

So what WOULD scum!you post in response to Glooble catching your mistake? I think what you posted is a decent attempt at covering.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Glooble on June 17, 2019, 02:15:03 pm
I did read it, and I thought not mentioning what the second person (ash) thought of joth meant it was joth.

What?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on June 17, 2019, 02:15:13 pm
The degree to which that scum slip is not a scum slip is quite enormous.

And why is that? Tell me how town makes that mistake.

They don't read EFHW's post properly.

So MiX is town who is sincerely interested in guessing who's in the neighborhood, but doesn't take the time to carefully read the ONE post that contains clues to who's in the neighborhood? You must not think much of MiX's play abilities.

All I can say is that this could easily happen to me.

...because you're also scum?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Glooble on June 17, 2019, 02:15:34 pm
I read that sentence like four times and I have no idea what it means.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on June 17, 2019, 02:16:51 pm
I read that sentence like four times and I have no idea what it means.

It means he sincerely thought that the neighborhood was sitting around talking about which one of themselves to target with their consensus-based vigs. Which is patently ridiculous.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: silverspawn on June 17, 2019, 02:17:57 pm
The fact that MiX doesn't claim not to have missed it makes me more willing to consider that it was a scum slip.

The problem is though that it only makes a little bit more sense as scum than town, so it's fairly weak evidence. But I might concede that it's non-negligible.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: silverspawn on June 17, 2019, 02:18:59 pm
This defensiveness is, however.

No.

For me this said "it's not scummy because third-pary/PRs want to defend themselves too", otherwise you would've written much more.

That is very creative.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: MiX on June 17, 2019, 02:19:11 pm
Yes, this is true, this is obviously true, and if you ever try to say that scum!me would say what I said above hoping people would forget Glooble's the one that questioned it then you have the polar opposite of what I do as scum. Or anyone, really, who would do this on purpose?

So what WOULD scum!you post in response to Glooble catching your mistake? I think what you posted is a decent attempt at covering.

Scum!me would acknowledge that it's a good reason to scumread me because mistakes = scummy. Town!me knows better.

I did read it, and I thought not mentioning what the second person (ash) thought of joth meant it was joth.

What?

EFHW suggested Glooble and joth and the second person didn't want Glooble and suggested MiX. But what about joth? EFHW didn't talk about him again or what the hood thought of him. Thus I concluded the second person was joth. Get it now?

I read that sentence like four times and I have no idea what it means.

It means he sincerely thought that the neighborhood was sitting around talking about which one of themselves to target with their consensus-based vigs. Which is patently ridiculous.

There's 3 people in it, they can definitely overpower one of the neighbors.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on June 17, 2019, 02:22:38 pm
Ok, I think I'm done going back and forth on this. Maybe other people who show up will see this my way.

As pubby would say, I don't see my vote moving again today.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: EFHW on June 17, 2019, 02:27:36 pm
So, your case is that MiX didn't pay attention to my post about deciding who to target?

I'm confused by his comment that scum would know 4 people who couldn't be in the neighborhood. What 4?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: EFHW on June 17, 2019, 02:29:06 pm
Was it MiX who made the "mafia knows traitor " mistake earlier?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: MiX on June 17, 2019, 02:31:54 pm
So, your case is that MiX didn't pay attention to my post about deciding who to target?

I'm confused by his comment that scum would know 4 people who couldn't be in the neighborhood. What 4?

I first counted traitor, and then I realized I could count myself instead! You know given I claimed to not be neighbor at the time.

Was it MiX who made the "mafia knows traitor " mistake earlier?

That was joth.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: 2.71828..... on June 17, 2019, 02:36:27 pm
Ok, I think I'm done going back and forth on this. Maybe other people who show up will see this my way.

As pubby would say, I don't see my vote moving again today.

ok.  doing an iso of MiX then.

Just finished reading mcmc.  not much there, but more than me.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: EFHW on June 17, 2019, 02:38:47 pm
Joth, your theory only works if there is also scum in the neighborhood.  If there isn't,  scum!MiX wouldn't know any more than the rest of you and would have paid attention to my post.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: silverspawn on June 17, 2019, 02:40:39 pm
Clearly a scum slip because scum!joth knows that there is scum in the neighborhood.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: DatSwan on June 17, 2019, 02:42:24 pm
To be fair, survivor will pretty much always side with mafia if we mislynch today

No. That depends on the survivor. Some survivors don't just have winning as a goal, but would rather win with town.

So has everyone reached the "lynch outside the hood" scenario?

No no no. We lynch DatSwan or ash

Are you high? Even if you want to lynch inside the hood there is wayyyyyy more of a skum narrative for EFHW than either Ash or myself
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Glooble on June 17, 2019, 02:45:44 pm
To be fair, survivor will pretty much always side with mafia if we mislynch today

No. That depends on the survivor. Some survivors don't just have winning as a goal, but would rather win with town.

So has everyone reached the "lynch outside the hood" scenario?

No no no. We lynch DatSwan or ash

Are you high? Even if you want to lynch inside the hood there is wayyyyyy more of a skum narrative for EFHW than either Ash or myself

Why does scum!EFHW out the neighborhood? I'm struggling to see the narrative there, but open to the possibility that I'm missing something obvious.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on June 17, 2019, 02:53:37 pm
Clearly a scum slip because scum!joth knows that there is scum in the neighborhood.

Hoping this is sarcasm. But yes, the theory hinges on there being scum in the neighborhood.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: EFHW on June 17, 2019, 02:54:51 pm
Clearly a scum slip because scum!joth knows that there is scum in the neighborhood.

Hoping this is sarcasm. But yes, the theory hinges on there being scum in the neighborhood.
If you are that convinced that there is scum in the neighborhood, why haven't you said so?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: 2.71828..... on June 17, 2019, 03:01:42 pm
MiX - I do not see him as part of the normal scum team at all.  Maybe he is a traitor, but if he is he doesn't know who they are.  MiX is playing like a team all of his own.  In a townie way though.  Knows what he is posting, knows people might find it scummy, but sticks to it because that is who he is.  I respect that.  And think it is townie.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: 2.71828..... on June 17, 2019, 03:02:12 pm
MiX thinks Glooble is scum.  On to them next.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on June 17, 2019, 03:02:53 pm
Clearly a scum slip because scum!joth knows that there is scum in the neighborhood.

Hoping this is sarcasm. But yes, the theory hinges on there being scum in the neighborhood.
If you are that convinced that there is scum in the neighborhood, why haven't you said so?

I think you're misunderstanding me. I think what MiX did only makes sense in one scenario: MiX is scum and there's scum in the neighborhood. If there's not scum in the neighborhood, then I have no explanation for MiX's scumslip. So scum in the neighborhood follows from my case, not the other way around. Which makes it less relevant right now, because I think we lynch MiX first. If he flips scum, then we start looking for his partner in the neighborhood?

But also, I've said, or at least implied, several times that I think there's scum in the neighborhood based on everyone's reactions to the neighbor reveal and the claim plans. I can quote those posts if you like.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on June 17, 2019, 03:06:19 pm
Here's one:

So it's EFHW/ash/Swan... most likely they're 3 town, since I don't think any of them would pick survivor. Of these 3...yes, I suppose Swan's the scummiest, but I would sooner lynch EFHW...which revealed this information at my request. I think we just outed 3 town. Thank you EFHW.

I need to get a Glooble case ASAP.

This is a scummy reaction to EFHWís claim and reveal. Once again, MiX is trying to proactively derail a town plan that might put his partners. Who jumps to ďtheyíre obviously all townĒ like that? Like, that fast. He doesnít even consider thereís scum there.

vote: MiX

And then here's the other one:

Here's another way to think about it:

How bad is it for scum if they do have one person in the neighborhood and we lynch within the neighborhood?
How good is it for them if the neighborhood is all town and we lynch within the neighborhood?

I think if B were true we'd have someone strongly advocating for that, since it guarantees a waste of several lynches AND keeps the lynch from hitting the traitor in the event that mafia doesn't know who they are (the traitor can't be a neighbor, right?). I think if A were true we'd see someone strongly advocating for lynching outside the neighborhood, since even though 1/3 = 3/9 mathematically, in reality having six options for mislynch is very much preferably to having 2, especially when one of those two is EFHW, who everyone seems to be generally townreading.

Anyway, what we've seen is nobody, except maybe silver, pushing particularly hard for lynching in neighborhood. DatSwan, gkrieg, and MiX have all advocated somewhat strongly for lynching outside of it.

PPE: a whole bunch

Apparently this was confusingly written, but TL;DR if there's scum in the neighborhood I'd expect some energy to be expended toward getting us to lynch outside the neighborhood, and in fact that is happening. More importantly, if there's no scum in the neighborhood I'd expect there to be more energy toward getting us to lynch in the neighborhood. Therefore, I think scum in the neighborhood is more likely.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on June 17, 2019, 03:07:25 pm
MiX - I do not see him as part of the normal scum team at all.  Maybe he is a traitor, but if he is he doesn't know who they are.  MiX is playing like a team all of his own.  In a townie way though.  Knows what he is posting, knows people might find it scummy, but sticks to it because that is who he is.  I respect that.  And think it is townie.

Are we playing with the same MiX? Yikes.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: 2.71828..... on June 17, 2019, 03:10:03 pm
MiX - I do not see him as part of the normal scum team at all.  Maybe he is a traitor, but if he is he doesn't know who they are.  MiX is playing like a team all of his own.  In a townie way though.  Knows what he is posting, knows people might find it scummy, but sticks to it because that is who he is.  I respect that.  And think it is townie.

Are we playing with the same MiX? Yikes.

Well, you have some OMGUS going for you.  I have the independent perspective having lurked this entire game.  Doesn't make my perspective any better/worse than yours, just different.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: 2.71828..... on June 17, 2019, 03:11:43 pm
Also, Glooble is town.

Or really helpful scum.

But I think town.

Everything they have done has been useful, pushing the game along, clarifying comments from other people.  Basically, they have had 95% positive impact, and I think they are town for it.  The 5% is in case I missed something not obvious.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: 2.71828..... on June 17, 2019, 03:13:19 pm
MiX - I do not see him as part of the normal scum team at all.  Maybe he is a traitor, but if he is he doesn't know who they are.  MiX is playing like a team all of his own.  In a townie way though.  Knows what he is posting, knows people might find it scummy, but sticks to it because that is who he is.  I respect that.  And think it is townie.

Are we playing with the same MiX? Yikes.

I see a lot of similarities between my play and his, which makes me sympathetic to his cause.  And I feel like I understand where he is coming from, and it is a spot I have come from as town several times facing a lynch.  (I don't think he is in desperate trouble for a lynch though right now, is he?)
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: 2.71828..... on June 17, 2019, 03:14:57 pm
EFHW because she claimed neighbor.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: 2.71828..... on June 17, 2019, 03:15:33 pm
EFHW because she claimed neighbor.

EFHW *next* because she claimed.   Words in my head vs. words I type.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: MiX on June 17, 2019, 03:16:17 pm
Clearly a scum slip because scum!joth knows that there is scum in the neighborhood.

Hoping this is sarcasm. But yes, the theory hinges on there being scum in the neighborhood.
If you are that convinced that there is scum in the neighborhood, why haven't you said so?

I think you're misunderstanding me. I think what MiX did only makes sense in one scenario: MiX is scum and there's scum in the neighborhood. If there's not scum in the neighborhood, then I have no explanation for MiX's scumslip. So scum in the neighborhood follows from my case, not the other way around. Which makes it less relevant right now, because I think we lynch MiX first. If he flips scum, then we start looking for his partner in the neighborhood?

But also, I've said, or at least implied, several times that I think there's scum in the neighborhood based on everyone's reactions to the neighbor reveal and the claim plans. I can quote those posts if you like.

So you lynch me hoping that I flip scum so that the scumslip makes sense? Let's fast forward in time to D3 after I flip scum:

ss(?): Oh look, MiX was scum.

joth: See, this proves I was right about the scumslip! Let's lynch in the neighborhood!

And then town spends a bunch of time lynching in hood because in this scenario me and joth are obviously buddies and no scum's in hood. If I flip town:

ss(?): Oh look, MiX was town.

joth: See, lynching outside the hood was bad, just like I said! Let's lynch in the neighborgood!

And...you get my point.


Anyway, you're hoping to prove that the scumslip is correct after I flip, which just sounds wrong.

Here's one:

Apparently this was confusingly written, but TL;DR if there's scum in the neighborhood I'd expect some energy to be expended toward getting us to lynch outside the neighborhood, and in fact that is happening. More importantly, if there's no scum in the neighborhood I'd expect there to be more energy toward getting us to lynch in the neighborhood. Therefore, I think scum in the neighborhood is more likely.

From my perspective I see the complete opposite, because we're in opposing sides. So cleeeearly scum's NOT in neighborhood and you know that.

MiX - I do not see him as part of the normal scum team at all.  Maybe he is a traitor, but if he is he doesn't know who they are.  MiX is playing like a team all of his own.  In a townie way though.  Knows what he is posting, knows people might find it scummy, but sticks to it because that is who he is.  I respect that.  And think it is townie.

Are we playing with the same MiX? Yikes.

Apparently he's playing with SK!MiX, which is understandable, given it might be the last one he's seen.

PPE a bunch. Unvote
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: silverspawn on June 17, 2019, 03:18:38 pm
Clearly a scum slip because scum!joth knows that there is scum in the neighborhood.

Hoping this is sarcasm. But yes, the theory hinges on there being scum in the neighborhood.

I think the module that was online when I wrote that didn't really run on concepts like sarcasm. It was more like a witty response that popped into my head and I posted it without thinking.

I think it's about much of a scum slip as the Mix thing. Probably a bit more.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: silverspawn on June 17, 2019, 03:21:56 pm
Apparently this was confusingly written, but TL;DR if there's scum in the neighborhood I'd expect some energy to be expended toward getting us to lynch outside the neighborhood, and in fact that is happening. More importantly, if there's no scum in the neighborhood I'd expect there to be more energy toward getting us to lynch in the neighborhood. Therefore, I think scum in the neighborhood is more likely

This is a good point, by the way.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on June 17, 2019, 03:22:51 pm
Let's fast forward in time to D3 after I flip scum

Surely you'll admit this is a scumslip, right? /s
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: DatSwan on June 17, 2019, 03:25:06 pm
To be fair, survivor will pretty much always side with mafia if we mislynch today

No. That depends on the survivor. Some survivors don't just have winning as a goal, but would rather win with town.

So has everyone reached the "lynch outside the hood" scenario?

No no no. We lynch DatSwan or ash

Are you high? Even if you want to lynch inside the hood there is wayyyyyy more of a skum narrative for EFHW than either Ash or myself

Why does scum!EFHW out the neighborhood? I'm struggling to see the narrative there, but open to the possibility that I'm missing something obvious.

I am not saying that Skum!EFHW does it like every time... but look at it from the negative of Town!EFHW.

1) EFHW is Town - They out the hood. They did this because they think there is skum in the hood, so they are gonna want to lynch 1 of the other 2 players. Coolio. Except, EFHW knows the ratio right now (or as best they can) of Town:Skum.... So, she is essentially hinging the game on a a) Day 1 read that skum is in the Hood, followed by b) praying we get that skum player the first try, because c) even if we were to lynch once incorrectly.... we have no way of knowing if we still have a chance of finding skum in the hood at all still.


2) EFHW is Skum - They out the hood. They did this because of all the bad reasons listed in the "if EFHW is Town" scenario, as well as the working proven fact that it gives them town cred when it comes to "who is skummiest" in the Hood.


So yeah, not like proven cases by any means on alignment... but as it is only Day 2 I find it harder to believe that Town!EFHW would be risking the game on essentially a gut read, over this being a potential Skum!EFHW attempt to push a skum angle. And again... all of that factored in... I still would rather lynch outside.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: DatSwan on June 17, 2019, 03:28:56 pm
Apparently this was confusingly written, but TL;DR if there's scum in the neighborhood I'd expect some energy to be expended toward getting us to lynch outside the neighborhood, and in fact that is happening. More importantly, if there's no scum in the neighborhood I'd expect there to be more energy toward getting us to lynch in the neighborhood. Therefore, I think scum in the neighborhood is more likely

This is a good point, by the way.

It is a good point. Don't forget that the grain of salt that comes with it though - If this mindset is to be expected, then it is also expected to be planned before it happened. Just to say, if we think energy is not being pushed in the direction that makes sense, that is probably because it was discussed by skum prior to it happening (or hell they could even have day chat and being doing in stride).
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on June 17, 2019, 03:32:45 pm
MiX - I do not see him as part of the normal scum team at all.  Maybe he is a traitor, but if he is he doesn't know who they are.  MiX is playing like a team all of his own.  In a townie way though.  Knows what he is posting, knows people might find it scummy, but sticks to it because that is who he is.  I respect that.  And think it is townie.

Are we playing with the same MiX? Yikes.

Well, you have some OMGUS going for you.  I have the independent perspective having lurked this entire game.  Doesn't make my perspective any better/worse than yours, just different.

You can believe this or not, but I don't care AT ALL that MiX is voting for/has voted for me. Has nothing to do with my read or case on him.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: 2.71828..... on June 17, 2019, 03:33:13 pm
So, I could see EFHW as scum.  Nothing much to say about her D1, but then D2 let's look at this string of posts:

It seems to me extremely likely that scum would have chosen the neighbor option. Does anyone have a narrative where they might not have?
Ok, I'm home for the day and I've decided to claim. I am in the neighborhood. No one has taken issue with my PR argument and there's no other reason to withhold this information from town. There are three of us. I'll hold off on saying who, or they can.
@MiX, what is your question? We had a consensus on the vig.

That answers it. Did you propose that idea or had it in mind before N1?

I started with Glooble and joth. One person was hesitant about Glooble and suggested MiX. I didn't want MiX and brought up Eddie. There was consensus from there. The third neighbor didn't suggest or object to anyone. The ease of the consensus made me worry that Eddie was town, but I decided that a scum neighbor could be uncomfortable objecting to a partner. I also couldn't change the target on my own and didn't know the motivations of the non-scum neighbor.

Both felt strongly that we shouldn't claim. I didn't say anything one way or the other.

The way things happened made me concerned that there was indeed scum in the neighborhood and that is why I claimed.
I'm not saying names yet because I want to hear from town about whether they think scum was there.

I had a really great theory that didn't pan out. I thought if there was a survivor in the neighborhood they could claim and if there was scum, too, they would claim. The two of them would vig me and then survivor would ally with mafia.
ashersky not coming forward after I claimed and after the pr argument was negated without protest makes me think he doesn't want it known that he is in the neighborhood,  either.
I agree that choosing neighbor is probably a mistake.  But I think people in this group would find the idea appealing.
DatSwan,  you keep criticizing me for claiming, but in the qt analysis you are referencing, you said (paraphrasing here) that in the case of scum in neighborhood, claiming is good. I felt there was a good chance of one of you being scum. I don't have a town read on ash, either. He feels more careful than usual.

Also, protecting prs is usually a high priority, but the prs in this game don't seem worth the importance you are giving them.

I'm sorry if you felt betrayed.  I carefully didn't actually promise or agree to anything in the qt. Sharing a qt feels like comraderie, but with unknown alignments it can't really be that.


We start with EFHW basically 100% convinced scum is in the neighborhood, then pushes for a neighborhood claim, throws some shade on fellow neighbors, then eventually says that choosing neighbor is probably a mistake.

It just feels like EFHW is scum in the neighborhood who thought that claiming first would give her the extra town cred to push through a lynch against a fellow neighbor.

So let's just go vote: EFHW

and see how things develop
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Glooble on June 17, 2019, 03:48:02 pm
e's making a lot of sense. So is Datswan.

I still think MiX is scummier, but that wagon's going nowhere so...

vote: EFHW
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Glooble on June 17, 2019, 03:50:47 pm
To elaborate, I went to reread EFHW after Datswan's post because I wanted to see if her behavior was consistent with the narrative he proposed and it really kinda was. Then I went back to now and saw e's post and I didn't really have anything to add.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: silverspawn on June 17, 2019, 03:51:15 pm
DatSwan ISO

Ė I hate the "could of" thing. Always have. Why are you doing this?  :'(
Ė Traitor is a shit role. Not knowing mafia is an advantage because then they are basically town. Traitor knows mafia is a disadvantage for scum. I'm assuming scum didn't choose that option, so traitor doesn't know mafia, so they're impossible to find, so all traitor talk is useless. Seriously though traitor is such an awful role. /rant
Ė
E!

I don't think that operator is defined for integers, let alone rationals, let alone reals. But if it is, I'm interested to hear it.

I'll get to real points eventuallyell.

Ė I think DatSwan is town. Damn. Why is everyone town this game?  :(

Ė This (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=19685.msg803527#msg803527) is kind of hilarious to me because I did all this on-the-side sponteneous low informed random stuff and DatSwan is trying to take it really seriously. But they do reach the correct conclusion, which is nice.

Ė I continue to think that DatSwan's ISO posts read very genuine, although I am aware that he does these a lot and probably has good practice in fabricating them as scum. But nonetheless, I'm going to give town points for now (until they flip scum in a game where I gave town points and I conclude that it's NAI).

There's too much, I'll do the rest later.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: silverspawn on June 17, 2019, 03:53:22 pm
We start with EFHW basically 100% convinced scum is in the neighborhood, then pushes for a neighborhood claim, throws some shade on fellow neighbors, then eventually says that choosing neighbor is probably a mistake.

In my mind, the logical continuation to this sentence is, "That's obviously town play."
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: silverspawn on June 17, 2019, 03:54:48 pm
vote: ash

I am absolutely incapable of reading ash but DatSwan is towny and EFHW is very towny and I want to lynch within the neighborhood.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: 2.71828..... on June 17, 2019, 04:01:55 pm
We start with EFHW basically 100% convinced scum is in the neighborhood, then pushes for a neighborhood claim, throws some shade on fellow neighbors, then eventually says that choosing neighbor is probably a mistake.

In my mind, the logical continuation to this sentence is, "That's obviously town play."

fair enough.  I think the logical conclusion is that EFHW came into the day knowing she wanted to pin a fellow neighbor as scum, which is a scum attitude not a town attitude.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: 2.71828..... on June 17, 2019, 04:02:32 pm
vote: ash

I am absolutely incapable of reading ash but DatSwan is towny and EFHW is very towny and I want to lynch within the neighborhood.

I should iso the other neighbors.  I will start with Ash.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: silverspawn on June 17, 2019, 04:03:43 pm
I think it's just too chaotic to be scum play
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Glooble on June 17, 2019, 04:17:42 pm
We start with EFHW basically 100% convinced scum is in the neighborhood, then pushes for a neighborhood claim, throws some shade on fellow neighbors, then eventually says that choosing neighbor is probably a mistake.

In my mind, the logical continuation to this sentence is, "That's obviously town play."

fair enough.  I think the logical conclusion is that EFHW came into the day knowing she wanted to pin a fellow neighbor as scum, which is a scum attitude not a town attitude.

This is consistent with EFHWs behavior on Day 2...

but is it something scum would do, in this game, going into day 2? Or is it too much of a gambit for a scum team that is, objectively, in a pretty good position?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Glooble on June 17, 2019, 04:41:04 pm
If we have five scum, we're in MYLO (not true MYLO, I guess since PRs might interfere with the NK, but we don't even know which PRs we have so... mislynch is bad.) But scum doesn't actually know if the third party picked traitor, right? So in terms of whether of not we're in MYLO, the only player who knows that for sure is the third-party player, right?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: 2.71828..... on June 17, 2019, 04:50:13 pm
As for me as a person, I probably do come off as a grouchy old veteran more often than necessary. 

I think Ashersky sums up his game pretty well with this statement.  I don't know that it makes him scum, but it definitely doesn't clear him.  I think EFHW is far scummier if we are comparing members of the neighborhood (not having read datswan yet), but definitely scummier than MiX or Glooble.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Glooble on June 17, 2019, 04:50:39 pm
If mafia thinks the 5 v. 7 scenario is likely, then the "EFHW claims neighbor and tries to get ash or Swan lynched" theory makes a lot of sense. Because they need to ensure a mislynch, which means limiting the lynch candidates to a group that they know doesn't include the traitor. It also has the side effect of preventing the lynch from outing a power role, but if you think you can concievably win that night, who cares?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on June 17, 2019, 05:00:18 pm
If mafia thinks the 5 v. 7 scenario is likely, then the "EFHW claims neighbor and tries to get ash or Swan lynched" theory makes a lot of sense. Because they need to ensure a mislynch, which means limiting the lynch candidates to a group that they know doesn't include the traitor. It also has the side effect of preventing the lynch from outing a power role, but if you think you can conceivably win that night, who cares?

This is also much more feasible if scum has daychat and can plan and coordinate on the fly.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: EFHW on June 17, 2019, 06:20:44 pm
I think I laid my train of thought out pretty straightforwardly. Here it is laid out in one place, with some extra I didn't say before:

1. I went into N1 with no particular scum read on anyone, really.
2. I felt both ash and DatSwan behaved scummily in the qt.
     a. They both advocated against claiming, saying that claiming was scummy.
     b. They both expressed town reads of the rest of us.
     c. DatSwan didn't suggest or object to anyone.

3. I was of the personal opinion that scum would choose neighbor and that ash would absolutely choose survivor neighbor as third party. Doesn't mean that ash is neighbor, of course, but I really did expect there to be scum in the neighborhood.
4. I have recently misread DatSwan as scummy when he was town. So I wanted to be cautious and see if other town people thought what he did sounded scummy, before they knew who did it.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: EFHW on June 17, 2019, 06:27:53 pm
Accidental post

d. I thought the pr argument for not claiming was really weak and was surprised ash went along with it. They both seemed like they didn't want everyone to know they were there.

3. *doesn't mean ash is survivor

5. I said I didn't like the pr argument and waited 12 hours. No one argued. silver independently made the same argument. So I claimed. Given that silver was ready to identify all the prs and a couple people were agreeing, I think I am not alone in finding the "protect the pr's" argument weak.
6. I never said what I thought should happen. I said I thought town should have the information.
7. DatSwan has been quite aggressive towards me both before and after I said his name.
8. ash has been not gruff, not crotchety, polite and careful. Not his town meta.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: EFHW on June 17, 2019, 06:34:21 pm
We start with EFHW basically 100% convinced scum is in the neighborhood, then pushes for a neighborhood claim, throws some shade on fellow neighbors, then eventually says that choosing neighbor is probably a mistake.

In my mind, the logical continuation to this sentence is, "That's obviously town play."

fair enough.  I think the logical conclusion is that EFHW came into the day knowing she wanted to pin a fellow neighbor as scum, which is a scum attitude not a town attitude.
I had the plan to claim coming in. Not a surprise, since it was a reaction to events during N1. I wasn't sure what to do with the information I had and wanted town to have the information. I didn't have a desire to lynch a neighbor no matter what.

Where did I say choosing a neighbor is a mistake? I don't remember saying anything like this.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Glooble on June 17, 2019, 07:22:58 pm

1. I went into N1 with no particular scum read on anyone, really.


If you didnít have any particular scum reads, why did you suggest vig-killing me and joth?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Glooble on June 17, 2019, 07:26:48 pm
We start with EFHW basically 100% convinced scum is in the neighborhood, then pushes for a neighborhood claim, throws some shade on fellow neighbors, then eventually says that choosing neighbor is probably a mistake.

In my mind, the logical continuation to this sentence is, "That's obviously town play."

fair enough.  I think the logical conclusion is that EFHW came into the day knowing she wanted to pin a fellow neighbor as scum, which is a scum attitude not a town attitude.
I had the plan to claim coming in. Not a surprise, since it was a reaction to events during N1. I wasn't sure what to do with the information I had and wanted town to have the information. I didn't have a desire to lynch a neighbor no matter what.

Where did I say choosing a neighbor is a mistake? I don't remember saying anything like this.

I agree that choosing neighbor is probably a mistake.  But I think people in this group would find the idea appealing.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: pingpongsam on June 17, 2019, 08:35:21 pm
Damn. Why is everyone town this game?  :(

That happens to scum who know town is town and donít want to implicate their partners.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: EFHW on June 17, 2019, 09:07:31 pm

1. I went into N1 with no particular scum read on anyone, really.


If you didnít have any particular scum reads, why did you suggest vig-killing me and joth?
I was looking for reactions. I had a weak scumread on you, and other people had been making noises about joth.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: EFHW on June 17, 2019, 09:09:23 pm
Oh, choosing neighbor in the first place. I thought you meant lynching within the neighborhood.  Yes, I realized during the day today that scum neighbor was not as desirable as I had assumed at first.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: ashersky on June 17, 2019, 10:18:43 pm
I find the stance that multiple players are taking on the "protecting PRs" argument perplexing.

The setup is lopsided against town if we think of this in a vanilla fashion (goons vs. VTs).  Scum has 4-5 players with no way of being outed (anymore).  Our literal only hope is for a PGO to pick one off for us, if we even got a PGO.  Even then, scum could have gotten a PGO too and use that against us.

Outed neighbors are VTs with a QT.  The argument can be made (and was made) that if scum is in the neighborhood, they already know this, so there's no harm in publicly announcing it.  The counterargument was made that there was also a chance scum is not in the neighborhood, and claiming provided them that information separately.

I don't really care so much about it being known that I, specifically, am a neighbor.  I am somewhat annoyed that in the case that both of you are town, EFHW unwittingly told scum information they wanted, either to not target us to PR hunt or to definitely target us to PGO dodge.

The phrase "protect the PRs" doesn't necessarily mean keep them from being killed.  It just means keep their identity as secret as possible, including by limiting POE.  Now, three scum know to hunt from a limited number of town players and who are safe to kill.  In a game that may possibly be decided tonight, that's a terrible, terrible thing.

So yes, I argued against claiming last night, and continue to argue that I was 10000000% correct.  It's all moot, though, because players will do what they want, based on their own win conditions and beliefs.

She was completely right about one thing -- the neighborhood may have felt like a place of camaraderie, but it definitely turned out not to be.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on June 17, 2019, 10:43:33 pm
Well that felt extremely performative.

vote: ash

Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: DatSwan on June 18, 2019, 01:57:39 am
@ EFHW - What was your opinion on my idea of how to select who carried out the vig? If I didn't bring it up, who would of you wanted to carry the vig?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: DatSwan on June 18, 2019, 01:59:38 am
I see only upsides to bringing this out, if it hasn't been already:

The Hood randomized who would carry out the vig shot by all of us selecting "self targets Eddie" after Eddie was agreed upon.

We do not know who actually carried out the shot.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: DatSwan on June 18, 2019, 02:06:06 am
vote: ash

I am absolutely incapable of reading ash but DatSwan is towny and EFHW is very towny and I want to lynch within the neighborhood.

in an alternate reality where you had to pick someone not in the Hood - who are like your top-whatever #?

Also, if we lynch ash, and ash flips town. What is your game plan? You think I am towny and EFHW is super towny... so then we lynch ash and its just like "oh well, I guess Swan was right, there is no skum?" or is it more "EFHW is townier than Swan, so Swan must be skum"?

There is a mild amount of sarcasm in the above question, I do not expect you as any alignment to actually answer it truthfully - but on the chance you are town just making a mistake, I would request you consider the repercussions put forth in the scenario where all of the hood is town.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: DatSwan on June 18, 2019, 02:41:20 am
If we have five scum, we're in MYLO (not true MYLO, I guess since PRs might interfere with the NK, but we don't even know which PRs we have so... mislynch is bad.) But scum doesn't actually know if the third party picked traitor, right? So in terms of whether of not we're in MYLO, the only player who knows that for sure is the third-party player, right?

To this point it should be noted how much the "inside the hood" pool is being looked at.

From a Skum PoV, the options of the Hood Players are:

1) All Town - So, that is just an obv win for Skum, they would always want to push that case.

2) Town -  Town - Skum - Isolate the lynch pool to people inside the Hood. Assuming Traitor knows Mafia, that is 3 votes of the 6 needed to lynch that can be maneuvered against a Skum lynch. (only 3 of 6 bc if third party picked traitor it is stated they will not know skum)

2) Town - Town - Survivor - Another obv win for skum. They know they have 100% non-Skum lynch if the lynch is in the Hood. Add in the discourse it could supply for future mislynches, yeah that is a pretty good play.

3) Town - Skum - Survivor - Isolate the lynch pool to people inside the Hood. Assuming Traitor knows Mafia that is 3 votes of the 6 needed to lynch that can be maneuvered against a Skum lynch. Then add in a Survivor, who wouldn't actually care if Town got lynched at this point. Then add in if they are worried about a Survivor being in the hood they def don't want to shoot there if skum is in the Hood. so they want a 50-50 lynch to try to get rid of that player.


So alllll of that is skum pov. and I think it is true and I stand by it. I do not know for certain if there is skum or not in the hood. But I do know that the Hood is now known and it is not going anywhere.
So like...

Today(a) - we can lynch in the hood having 0% of finding skum, or we can lynch outside and have a minimum of a 57% of finding some form of skum.
Today(b) - we can lynch in the hood having a 33% of finding skum, or we can lynch outside and have a minimum of a 42% chance of finding some form of skum.

Day3(a) - we can continue to lynch in the hood having a 0% of finding skum, or we can lynch outside the hood having essentially the same odds of finding skum as the day before.
Day3(b) - we found skum Day 1, awesome... amazing... miracle of RnG.... We will wake up with 1 IC and be able to lynch the outside pool with a minimum of a 42% chance of skum.
Day3(c) - we didn't find skum Day 1. Do we take the 50-50 vs 0% chance on the Hood pool, or do we take the 42% vs  57% chance on the outside?


It all starts with the fact that even if skum is inside the Hood there is still only a 33% chance of hitting skum. And honestly, from that point forward... we are kind of screwed if we dont find skum. So, for the love of whatever... why do we want to take a 0%-33% leading to a 0%-50% chance, rather than taking a 42%-57% chance right the hell now? We DO NOT KNOW skum is in the Hood, but we sure as hell know that skum is OUTSIDE the Hood. I seriously just don't even get the push back on this.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: DatSwan on June 18, 2019, 02:46:09 am
Also, it doesn't even matter what the third party player knows.

1) They are Traitor - So skum, so it doesn't matter.

2) Survivor - This is the swing day based on numbers, they will do whatever is best. so it doesn't matter.

3) Researcher - This one I guess matters. I have not checked, but assuming that Neighbors don't count as a PR they would probably want to push outside the pool.

4) SK - They just want to live, so it doesn't matter. They will say whatever suits them at this point.


If we get a Third Party flip, it matters. Right now, it is a distraction.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: DatSwan on June 18, 2019, 02:48:15 am
PPS. GK, Pubby - want to chime in at all?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: silverspawn on June 18, 2019, 02:51:36 am
Where are you getting the 42% number from?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: ashersky on June 18, 2019, 03:01:32 am
I see only upsides to bringing this out, if it hasn't been already:

The Hood randomized who would carry out the vig shot by all of us selecting "self targets Eddie" after Eddie was agreed upon.

We do not know who actually carried out the shot.

You might have mentioned whose idea the randomization was. Objectively it was a towny idea, given we all equally shared the risk.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: pubby on June 18, 2019, 03:49:56 am
PPS. GK, Pubby - want to chime in at all?
I've mostly been skimming. EFHW seems super towny. e seems mildly suspicious and joth, ash, MiX are still solid lynch votes.

Not really following the neighborhood strategy. Like this for example:
Quote
1) All Town - So, that is just an obv win for Skum, they would always want to push that case.
Can someone explain this I'm confused.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: silverspawn on June 18, 2019, 04:37:05 am
Stop skimming and start reading.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: faust on June 18, 2019, 05:22:56 am
Vote Count 2.5

jotheonah (1): gkrieg13
mcmcsalot (1): DatSwan
ashersky (3): pubby, silverspawn, jtoheonah
EFHW (2): 2.71828....., Glooble

Not Voting (5): mcmcsalot, EFHW, ashersky, pingpongsam, MiX

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch. Day 2 ends on June 19, 2019, 10:10:00 am, in about 29 hours.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: pingpongsam on June 18, 2019, 06:25:24 am
Null to scum on joth. Would vote. Will not vote inside the hood. Scum points for everyone supporting that.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on June 18, 2019, 07:49:23 am
The phony math in DatSwanís argument is the implicit assumption that scum in the hood and no scum in the hood are equally likely. So when you say ďwhy would we pick 33% OR 42% over 0% or whatever percentĒ that makes sense in a world where we have no idea whether thereís scum.

But thatís just lazy, just like all probability arguments are lazy, because we have tools at our disposal to gauge whether or not thereía scum in the hood, just like we have tools at our disposal to gauge whether or not someone is scum. Weíre not choosing at random.

At the end of the day, I donít care if we lynch inside or outside. We win by lynching the scummiest player. I still think thatís MiX, who made a blatant scumslip. But I also think that pst ost by Ash was an over the top appeal to emotion that screams scum. I mean look at that last sentence for crying out loud, itís like a bad TV lawyer.

So both my top scumreads are consistent with a scum-in-the-hood theory. EFHW has her own reasons for thinking thereís scum in the hood and, again, they are better and more solid than brimless math.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on June 18, 2019, 07:50:21 am
*brainless math
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: ashersky on June 18, 2019, 10:25:14 am
If it was an appeal to emotion, it clearly worked, since you seemed to have been moved by it.  Don't blame your emotional fickleness on me, though.

(Ironically, or not, your appeal to emotion attack is, in an of itself, an appeal to emotion attack.  So it's at least a well-played meta joke, which I can appreciate.)

(A second ironic point, of course, is joth's propensity for over-the-top emotional exasperation at the play of certain players, or the actions and words of others.  See basically any previous game with MiX for examples.)
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on June 18, 2019, 11:02:21 am
Why are we not talking about the fact that, if we're in a 5-scum situation, we literally need every town player to vote as a block to hit scum without bussing? Conversely, scum only needs two townies to be on a wagon on town together before they can all jump on it. And if they picked daychat, then 3/5 of them can coordinate a quick hammer. Geeze, this setup is rough. I don't think I've been fully comprehending what a rough spot we're in. And if we mislynch today, we could be at 5 town-5 scum tomorrow, so we might be in MyLo right now.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: MiX on June 18, 2019, 11:07:41 am
Why are we not talking about the fact that, if we're in a 5-scum situation, we literally need every town player to vote as a block to hit scum without bussing? Conversely, scum only needs two townies to be on a wagon on town together before they can all jump on it. And if they picked daychat, then 3/5 of them can coordinate a quick hammer. Geeze, this setup is rough. I don't think I've been fully comprehending what a rough spot we're in. And if we mislynch today, we could be at 5 town-5 scum tomorrow, so we might be in MyLo right now.

And then it hit him: that one post MiX made about the setup D1 made sense. And it was important. And why did I get town this game. And how can third-party traitor coordinate? Why are we in a terrible position? Why are we lynching inside the neighbor when we have much better odds outside? Why is Glooble town? Why is pubby town? Why is mcmc not dead yet?

Vote: mcmc
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: gkrieg13 on June 18, 2019, 11:10:21 am
Why are we not talking about the fact that, if we're in a 5-scum situation, we literally need every town player to vote as a block to hit scum without bussing? Conversely, scum only needs two townies to be on a wagon on town together before they can all jump on it. And if they picked daychat, then 3/5 of them can coordinate a quick hammer. Geeze, this setup is rough. I don't think I've been fully comprehending what a rough spot we're in. And if we mislynch today, we could be at 5 town-5 scum tomorrow, so we might be in MyLo right now.

Yet I was somehow scummy for bringing this up D1
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Glooble on June 18, 2019, 11:14:16 am
Why are we not talking about the fact that, if we're in a 5-scum situation, we literally need every town player to vote as a block to hit scum without bussing? Conversely, scum only needs two townies to be on a wagon on town together before they can all jump on it. And if they picked daychat, then 3/5 of them can coordinate a quick hammer. Geeze, this setup is rough. I don't think I've been fully comprehending what a rough spot we're in. And if we mislynch today, we could be at 5 town-5 scum tomorrow, so we might be in MyLo right now.

Yet I was somehow scummy for bringing this up D1


Not to all of us... but yeah let's maybe look at some of the players who kept saying "setup talk is bad" without any nuance. I'll note just from memory that one of those was silverspawn.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: ashersky on June 18, 2019, 11:15:34 am
Why are we not talking about the fact that, if we're in a 5-scum situation, we literally need every town player to vote as a block to hit scum without bussing? Conversely, scum only needs two townies to be on a wagon on town together before they can all jump on it. And if they picked daychat, then 3/5 of them can coordinate a quick hammer. Geeze, this setup is rough. I don't think I've been fully comprehending what a rough spot we're in. And if we mislynch today, we could be at 5 town-5 scum tomorrow, so we might be in MyLo right now.

It's been mentioned.  No one seems worried.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Glooble on June 18, 2019, 11:18:21 am
I'm worried! especially at T-23 hours.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Glooble on June 18, 2019, 11:30:38 am
vote: gkrieg this is the kind of setup comment that can't possibly be good for town

This was in response to gkrieg's assertion that scum could theoretically win night 1. I questioned it here:

vote: gkrieg this is the kind of setup comment that can't possibly be good for town


Sorry, but why not? What exactly is wrong with making sure town is aware of how much or little time we might have, and how much leeway there is for making mistakes? I understand the underlying reason for not discussing the setup, but this seems like an exception to me. It's quite likely I'm missing something though. So if you can tell me why you think this particular line of questioning is anti-town I'd love to hear it.

That being said, if there's some reason why even explaining that is anti-town then please do not explain and I will abide by the consensus.

And silver never responded to me.

Ash and DatSwan then come in saying setup talk isn't bad per se and clarifying what specific types of setup talk are bad. Town points for both.

It seems to me like silverspawn was trying to shut down discussion that would actually have been very helpful for town, and when I asked him why he just kind of ignored me. Then day 2 he pushes for a mass claim (which as ash points out, could allow scum to avoid the PGO, which is one of the few ways town could survive another night in thew 5 v 7 scenario) then he really, really wants to lynch inside the neighborhood (which prevents the lynch from hitting the traitor, another way town could buy themselves an extra day.) And he excludes EFHW from the lynch pool.

vote: silverspawn

This is where we want to be if we're lynching off-wagon.

Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on June 18, 2019, 01:08:32 pm
In the interest of consolidating around a lynch in the next 23 hours, vote: silverspawn

And ok, apparently people have been talking about this but at a level that I just sort of filtered out because it seemed like boring mathy setup talk, so I guess that's on me.

I hate to be the one to say it but, if we don't have broad consensus, is there any value in no lynch here? If we're at 7-5 now, that guarantees we don't lose tonight, and gives us a slightly smaller pool to choose from tomorrow and slightly more information.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: silverspawn on June 18, 2019, 01:13:09 pm
thinking math arguments are lazy is mostly just a symptom of being overconfident in one's ability to read people and/or misunderstanding how updating on evidence works
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: silverspawn on June 18, 2019, 01:20:16 pm
vote: gkrieg this is the kind of setup comment that can't possibly be good for town

This was in response to gkrieg's assertion that scum could theoretically win night 1. I questioned it here:

vote: gkrieg this is the kind of setup comment that can't possibly be good for town


Sorry, but why not? What exactly is wrong with making sure town is aware of how much or little time we might have, and how much leeway there is for making mistakes? I understand the underlying reason for not discussing the setup, but this seems like an exception to me. It's quite likely I'm missing something though. So if you can tell me why you think this particular line of questioning is anti-town I'd love to hear it.

That being said, if there's some reason why even explaining that is anti-town then please do not explain and I will abide by the consensus.

And silver never responded to me.

Ash and DatSwan then come in saying setup talk isn't bad per se and clarifying what specific types of setup talk are bad. Town points for both.

It seems to me like silverspawn was trying to shut down discussion that would actually have been very helpful for town, and when I asked him why he just kind of ignored me. Then day 2 he pushes for a mass claim (which as ash points out, could allow scum to avoid the PGO, which is one of the few ways town could survive another night in thew 5 v 7 scenario) then he really, really wants to lynch inside the neighborhood (which prevents the lynch from hitting the traitor, another way town could buy themselves an extra day.) And he excludes EFHW from the lynch pool.

The reason I ignored you is that I concluded that setup discussion day 1 was anti town, and if I engage in a discussion about why that is, that's most likely going to lead to setup discussion (because then I have to explain why it's anti town).

I did not think particularly hard about why it's anti town. What I quickly realized was that there was no way we would ever do anything special based on the setup on day 1. Claiming on day 1 is bad, neighborhood discussion is bad, etc. All setup discussion that is helpful for town on day 1 is equally helpful on day 2. (Please either find a counterexample or acknowledge that there was no reason to discuss the setup on day 1.) Lots of setup discussion, like neighborhood claims, are only helpful on day 2. And as you can observe, I wasn't at all opposed to doing setup stuff on day 2. In fact I proposed the massclaim Ė which we should do.

Quote
which as ash points out, could allow scum to avoid the PGO
I was proposing a VT / non-VT claim. If scum avoids the PGO it means they're not targeting a non-VT, which means there is no downside to claiming, which means claiming was trivially correct.

Quote
And he excludes EFHW from the lynch pool.

What kind of complaint even is that? There's a player I'm townreading and therefore I'm scummy?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: silverspawn on June 18, 2019, 01:21:39 pm
I remember now how it feels to get upset about crappy cases.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Glooble on June 18, 2019, 01:27:51 pm
That specific comment from gkrieg, the one you voted for him over, was a setup comment that was helpful for day 1 though. Since the worst-case scenario for town was predicated on the actions of town players (mainly the PGO if we have one, but also really any player who might theoretically target another player D1) knowing about that scenario allowed those players to make informed decisions about whether to use their shots night 1. I did not see that possibility until ash pointed it out (hence my argument with gkrieg.)
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: silverspawn on June 18, 2019, 01:28:29 pm
Assuming that there is 4 scum total and one in the neighborhood Ėwhich is the best case for lynching in-neighborhood Ė it is indeed true that the prior chance to hit scum when lynching inside is slightly worse than that of hitting scum when lynching outside, from my PoV. There are 12 players left, 3 in the neighborhood, 9 outside, 8 of them aren't me. So outside it's 3/8 and inside it's 1/3 = 3/9, which is lower. The reason why I want to lynch inside anway is threefold

a) most people have been pushing for a lynch outside, which is a sign that scum is inside

b) I strongly townread EFHW and townread DatSwan which makes for excellent PoE.

c) This is the most important point: if we lynch scum in the neighborhood, we create 2 ICs. If we lynch scum outside the neighborhood, we create 0 ICs. Creating 2 ICs is super awesome. If scum targets them, great, they're not targeting PRs. If scum does not target them, great, we have 2 ICs.

The fact that we're in a tough spot should be an argument to do high risk play.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on June 18, 2019, 01:29:36 pm
thinking math arguments are lazy is mostly just a symptom of being overconfident in one's ability to read people and/or misunderstanding how updating on evidence works

Arguments that rely primarily or exclusively on math are lazy.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: silverspawn on June 18, 2019, 01:31:27 pm
That specific comment from gkrieg, the one you voted for him over so early that it would be asinine to take it seriously was a setup comment that was helpful for day 1 though. Since the worst-case scenario for town was predicated on the actions of town players (mainly the PGO if we have one, but also really any player who might theoretically target another player D1) knowing about that scenario allowed those players to make informed decisions about whether to use their shots night 1. I did not see that possibility until ash pointed it out (hence my argument with gkrieg.)

Aside from my red edit, sure, that makes sense. I didn't think that far when I made the reply.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: silverspawn on June 18, 2019, 01:33:44 pm
thinking math arguments are lazy is mostly just a symptom of being overconfident in one's ability to read people and/or misunderstanding how updating on evidence works

Arguments that rely primarily or exclusively on math are lazy.

I mean, you can call them lazy if you want, but if you trust reads Ė which we know are extremely unreliable Ė over strong math evidence, then you're just playing bad. That is a fact. If something has like 4:1 odds then the correct play is to throw your reads out the window.

In this case, the math only gives fairly mild evidence so it doesn't apply, but in past games it has, and afaik there was only one example of the math being wrong.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Glooble on June 18, 2019, 01:35:18 pm
That specific comment from gkrieg, the one you voted for him over so early that it would be asinine to take it seriously was a setup comment that was helpful for day 1 though. Since the worst-case scenario for town was predicated on the actions of town players (mainly the PGO if we have one, but also really any player who might theoretically target another player D1) knowing about that scenario allowed those players to make informed decisions about whether to use their shots night 1. I did not see that possibility until ash pointed it out (hence my argument with gkrieg.)

Aside from my red edit, sure, that makes sense. I didn't think that far when I made the reply.

So you're acknowledging that the comment that you yourself said "Couldn't possibly be good for town" as actually good for town?


Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Glooble on June 18, 2019, 01:36:42 pm
I'm curious as to why you're townreading DatSwan but scumreading ash? Just because on the whole they read very similar to me.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: gkrieg13 on June 18, 2019, 01:37:09 pm
Assuming that there is 4 scum total and one in the neighborhood Ėwhich is the best case for lynching in-neighborhood Ė it is indeed true that the prior chance to hit scum when lynching inside is slightly worse than that of hitting scum when lynching outside, from my PoV. There are 12 players left, 3 in the neighborhood, 9 outside, 8 of them aren't me. So outside it's 3/8 and inside it's 1/3 = 3/9, which is lower. The reason why I want to lynch inside anway is threefold

a) most people have been pushing for a lynch outside, which is a sign that scum is inside

b) I strongly townread EFHW and townread DatSwan which makes for excellent PoE.

c) This is the most important point: if we lynch scum in the neighborhood, we create 2 ICs. If we lynch scum outside the neighborhood, we create 0 ICs. Creating 2 ICs is super awesome. If scum targets them, great, they're not targeting PRs. If scum does not target them, great, we have 2 ICs.

The fact that we're in a tough spot should be an argument to do high risk play.

But we don't really make 2 ICs, we probably make 1 IC with the other being dead. There is also a chance that scum is not in the neighborhood, which would mean that the higher chances of you hitting scum outside the neighborhood combined with there being a chance that there are 4 scum outside the neighborhood makes it a higher chance we hit scum outside the neighborhood.

I also don't have a strong scum read inside the neighborhood, which points me to thinking there might not be scum in the neighborhood.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Glooble on June 18, 2019, 01:47:02 pm
I've said all of this already in smaller pieces, but I feel like I need to lay it all out.

I think there's scum in the neighborhood. I think it's EFHW, and I think one of her partners is silverspawn.

I think the reason she outed the neighborhood was so her partner could push for a lynch in the neighborhood and she would look towny for having outed them. Why does scum do this? Because they don't know who the traitor is, and they absolutely need to not lynch the traitor if they want to win today.

What could keep them from winning other than accidentally getting the traitor lynched? Having their kill stopped. A PR/ not PR claim, as silverspawn suggested, lets them 1. avoid the PGO, and 2. have much better POE if they have a roleblocker (to block the rolestopper, the only other role that could prevent their victory.)
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: MiX on June 18, 2019, 02:02:32 pm
Not in hood: Glooble/pubby/mcmc/gkrieg/pps/ss/e/joth/(MiX)

Not lynching today: Glooble/gkrieg

Nully I guess: pps/joth/e (got townier I think)

Scummy: mcmc/ss/pubby?


I'm looking at lynching ss or mcmc today, I think. Reads today have been terrible with me scumreading Glooble all day for things...well...that his town self does. Sadly it's true, what I was scumreading him for is normal Glooble and the rest's town Glooble. I don't like it but it's true. I wish Glooble had a different meta because I keep finding them scummy when they're town.

I'll sheep pretty much any case. Feeling somewhat useless today. How long do we have to deadline?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: gkrieg13 on June 18, 2019, 02:04:27 pm
I've said all of this already in smaller pieces, but I feel like I need to lay it all out.

I think there's scum in the neighborhood. I think it's EFHW, and I think one of her partners is silverspawn.

I think the reason she outed the neighborhood was so her partner could push for a lynch in the neighborhood and she would look towny for having outed them. Why does scum do this? Because they don't know who the traitor is, and they absolutely need to not lynch the traitor if they want to win today.

What could keep them from winning other than accidentally getting the traitor lynched? Having their kill stopped. A PR/ not PR claim, as silverspawn suggested, lets them 1. avoid the PGO, and 2. have much better POE if they have a roleblocker (to block the rolestopper, the only other role that could prevent their victory.)

This is possible. I think you mixed up who gets roleblocker and rolestopper?
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Glooble on June 18, 2019, 02:05:57 pm
I did misread slightly. Mafia can have either, but it looks like town only gets roleblocker.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: gkrieg13 on June 18, 2019, 02:07:28 pm
I've said all of this already in smaller pieces, but I feel like I need to lay it all out.

I think there's scum in the neighborhood. I think it's EFHW, and I think one of her partners is silverspawn.

I think the reason she outed the neighborhood was so her partner could push for a lynch in the neighborhood and she would look towny for having outed them. Why does scum do this? Because they don't know who the traitor is, and they absolutely need to not lynch the traitor if they want to win today.

What could keep them from winning other than accidentally getting the traitor lynched? Having their kill stopped. A PR/ not PR claim, as silverspawn suggested, lets them 1. avoid the PGO, and 2. have much better POE if they have a roleblocker (to block the rolestopper, the only other role that could prevent their victory.)

Thinking more about this. My problem with it is that I find EFHW very townie, and I feel like I normally read EFHW pretty well. She doesn't seem calculated like she does when she is scum.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: gkrieg13 on June 18, 2019, 02:07:54 pm
unvote

I think the twins are town.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Glooble on June 18, 2019, 02:23:21 pm
I've said all of this already in smaller pieces, but I feel like I need to lay it all out.

I think there's scum in the neighborhood. I think it's EFHW, and I think one of her partners is silverspawn.

I think the reason she outed the neighborhood was so her partner could push for a lynch in the neighborhood and she would look towny for having outed them. Why does scum do this? Because they don't know who the traitor is, and they absolutely need to not lynch the traitor if they want to win today.

What could keep them from winning other than accidentally getting the traitor lynched? Having their kill stopped. A PR/ not PR claim, as silverspawn suggested, lets them 1. avoid the PGO, and 2. have much better POE if they have a roleblocker (to block the rolestopper, the only other role that could prevent their victory.)

Thinking more about this. My problem with it is that I find EFHW very townie, and I feel like I normally read EFHW pretty well. She doesn't seem calculated like she does when she is scum.

Even if EFHW is town, scum!silverspawn could still have latched onto the "lynch in the hood" plan for the reasons I specified. In fact if the hood *is* all town, scum know this, and pushing for a hood lynch is an even better plan for them.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: silverspawn on June 18, 2019, 04:00:02 pm
That specific comment from gkrieg, the one you voted for him over so early that it would be asinine to take it seriously was a setup comment that was helpful for day 1 though. Since the worst-case scenario for town was predicated on the actions of town players (mainly the PGO if we have one, but also really any player who might theoretically target another player D1) knowing about that scenario allowed those players to make informed decisions about whether to use their shots night 1. I did not see that possibility until ash pointed it out (hence my argument with gkrieg.)

Aside from my red edit, sure, that makes sense. I didn't think that far when I made the reply.

So you're acknowledging that the comment that you yourself said "Couldn't possibly be good for town" as actually good for town?

Yes.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: silverspawn on June 18, 2019, 04:03:06 pm
But we don't really make 2 ICs, we probably make 1 IC with the other being dead.

If the IC is being killed it has been useful because it prevented the death of a PR. I've said this in my post. If you want then the utility of the IC is decreased to the expected power of whatever other person mafia would kill. But it doesn't go to zero.
Title: Re: M123: Doomsday Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: silverspawn on June 18, 2019, 04:05:35 pm