Dominion Strategy Forum

Dominion => Variants and Fan Cards => Topic started by: ClouduHieh on February 13, 2019, 02:53:35 pm

Title: Dominion: Roles
Post by: ClouduHieh on February 13, 2019, 02:53:35 pm
I’ve recently had an idea (Roles) what if each player replaced a starting estate or necropolis with a role. The role would be an action. Each role would have their own unique action. You could either choose your role or get one at random. Depending on the game some of them could be very useful. If it was random it would still be fair. And since a role was one card, it wouldn’t give you a ginormous advantage.
Title: Re: Dominion: Roles
Post by: ClouduHieh on February 13, 2019, 03:27:22 pm
                        Cleric

                 +3 Actions
     Trash a card from your hand.

$0*Role-Action

                 Highwayman

Each other player reveals the top 2 cards
Of their deck. Trashes a revealed treasure,
If copper is trashed they gain a curse. You
gain the treasures trashed by this.

$0* Role-Action-Attack

              Merchant

            +1 Buy
            + $2

$0*Role-Action

               Farmer

            +2 Actions
Discard any number of cards, then
Draw that many.

$0*Role-Action

                Guard

            +1 Card
            +1 Action
   ———————————————
When another player plays an attack card,
You may first reveal this from your hand,
To be uneffected by it.

$0*Role-Action-Reaction

            Armorer

Choose one: +2 Cards, or
Gain a card costing up to 3$

$0*Role-Action


Because a role is of someone you start as. Maybe you were a farmer before you became a monarch. Ect.         
Now If I get more interest in this thread I will definitely post the cards for each of these on here.
Title: Re: Dominion: Roles
Post by: segura on February 13, 2019, 03:37:38 pm
Cleric already exists in the form of an Heirloom and is called Goat.

Merchant or Armorer totally change the opening and are far too good for starting deck cards.

Farmer is Cellar. You can literally exhange a starting Estate for a Cellar in every deck if you want to in your games. Not that this would be any good as it messes with the opening but you can simply do that when you next time play Dominion until you realize why starting cards should not be sifters (or draw in general).

Guard is the only idea with some merit here. Of course it is not directly workable as it also messes with the opening but the card idea is nonetheless OK as it is something that is overpowered for a Kingdom card but fine for a non-Supply card.
Title: Re: Dominion: Roles
Post by: ClouduHieh on February 13, 2019, 03:40:26 pm
Okay I’ve tweaked them.
Title: Re: Dominion: Roles
Post by: Asper on February 13, 2019, 06:07:24 pm
I have pondered things like this several times in the past. One problem is that, if each player has another role from the start, you cannot possibly balance them. For instance, a role that allows you to trash cards may be immensely useful in some games, and nearly useless in others. The same goes for most other bonuses, be it attacks, gaining, +Actions, +Buys, you name it.

The only way I see to make such a thing work is by making the aquisition of roles part of the game. Have players bid for roles, or award them for certain achievements. Bidding is what I used for my Power Grid submission in the weekly design contest thread. Achievements are what I used in a certain post for the later "base card" challenge of the same thread. Both are variants of Mountain Pass and Tournament, respectively. You could also make roles nonexclusive to keep the first to reach the condition from locking the others out, and well, that behaves very similar to Projects on a conceptual level.

The idea certainly isn't without merit, but I'm going out on a limb here that Shelter-like starting cards will not be a good way to do it, for the sheer impossibility to balance them.
Title: Re: Dominion: Roles
Post by: Neirai the Forgiven on February 13, 2019, 06:55:27 pm
Specifics aside, the idea has merit, as it's already featured heavily in games like the DC Deckbuilder, Mystic Vale, etc.

There is of course a "take it or leave it" type of thing; many Dominion fans like the fact that all players start on a relatively level playing field; many players can't even stand the typical 4/3 vs 5/2 unevenness.

You don't have to be one of them, it's okay to like something that many players may not.

Note: written before Asper posted.
Title: Re: Dominion: Roles
Post by: Fragasnap on February 13, 2019, 07:05:05 pm
If it was random it would still be fair. And since a role was one card, it wouldn’t give you a ginormous advantage.
This is not true at all.
Trashing and +Buys are incredibly variable effects per Kingdom (moreso than most), and having a singular source that isn't available to any other player would absolutely break the game. There are Kingdoms with no trashing where a Cleric player will practically automatically win. There are engine boards with no +Buy where Merchant or Armorer will wildly turn the tide in a players' favor.

Guard is a fine example of an inoffensive singleton card. It would have an affect on boards with strong Attacks, but is unlikely to immediately decide the game (though even its effect is quite variable by Kingdom and player count: 2-player games make Reactions fairly weak generally, while 4-player games will make Guard a powerhouse).

But, surely being able to leverage a unique card is the core appeal to them, so making them such inoffensive effects that they don't matter much would defeat the purpose in my opinion, while making them powerful cards renders the game into whatever mechanism is used to acquire them in the first place--be it a draft, a VP-bid, or fully random.
Title: Re: Dominion: Roles
Post by: Commodore Chuckles on February 13, 2019, 08:22:23 pm
For a while I've had the idea of letting players secretly choose a starting card after looking at the board. The biggest problem is that if there's only one of each, the first player to pick gets a massive advantage, whereas if there are multiple copies of each, all the players will just pick the same one on certain boards, which isn't very interesting.
Title: Re: Dominion: Roles
Post by: ClouduHieh on February 13, 2019, 11:21:15 pm
What if after looking what the kingdom cards, if players pick the same one they have to bid debt tokens for it. Then the other players pick from the ones that are still available. Like in a game with no cards that trash the first 3 players picked the cleric. Player 4 picked the highwayman. The first 3 players now bid debt tokens highest gets the cleric player 1 and 2 bid 5 player 3 bid 4. So player 3 must choose another one, the armorer. Once again player 1 and 2 bid debt tokens player 1 bid 7 player 2 bid 10. Player 2 gets cleric but starts the game off with ten debt tokens. Player one chooses the guard. Player 2 spends the first 3 turns paying off debt. Uses the cleric on his fifth turn to trash the curse he got. Now he starts trashing his coppers and curses but he’s 3 turns behind.

Here’s the question even though he’s potentially got the advantage is being 3 turns behind, still mean he’s going to win this game by a landslide?
Title: Re: Dominion: Roles
Post by: Asper on February 14, 2019, 04:55:21 am
Sure, bidding would be a legitimate way to distribute special cards at the beginning.
Title: Re: Dominion: Roles
Post by: segura on February 14, 2019, 11:56:27 am
Bidding negative VPS is probably a better way to implement a role auction, Debt changes the opening quite a bit.

I'd focus on cantrips like Guard with mild effects. First, because you can simply add them to the game instead of substituting an Estate or Copper (as already mentioned, if you substitute a starting card with a cantrip you will always shuffle at T2 which is dubious, with official cards such a thing can only happen with Doctor or some Hexes/Boons). Second, because being a cantrip automatically forces you to make the effects weak.
Title: Re: Dominion: Roles
Post by: Neirai the Forgiven on February 14, 2019, 12:30:07 pm
An interesting way to implement a similar which is a bit different, perhaps, is to give everyone this at the start of the game, replacing one of their starting cards.

[Hidden Destiny] -- $0?
Exchange this for a card in the Kingdom. If you do, take debt equal to that card's cost.

Type Shelter?
Title: Re: Dominion: Roles
Post by: segura on February 16, 2019, 07:32:34 am
An interesting way to implement a similar which is a bit different, perhaps, is to give everyone this at the start of the game, replacing one of their starting cards.

[Hidden Destiny] -- $0?
Exchange this for a card in the Kingdom. If you do, take debt equal to that card's cost.

Type Shelter?
I think this is a neat way to emulate a (potentially) symmetrical start.
Title: Re: Dominion: Roles
Post by: Asper on February 16, 2019, 12:58:52 pm
An interesting way to implement a similar which is a bit different, perhaps, is to give everyone this at the start of the game, replacing one of their starting cards.

[Hidden Destiny] -- $0?
Exchange this for a card in the Kingdom. If you do, take debt equal to that card's cost.

Type Shelter?

I think it has to be reworded slightly. For once, without a pile of its own, it can't be exchanged. Second, there are cards with Potion or debt costs. Of course, debt cards are always available (except Fortune), but I would still word around it. The negative VP also seem a good idea. It could come down to something like this:

Quote
Destiny, Action, 0$
+1 Action
Trash this. If you do, pay any number of VP, then gain a kingdom card costing up to 1$ per VP you paid to your hand.
---
Setup: Each player takes 8VP and adds a copy of this to their starting deck.

Of course this loses the appeal of asymmetrical roles.
Title: Re: Dominion: Roles
Post by: ClouduHieh on March 22, 2019, 11:11:46 pm
I could make the roles each cost debt tokens that you gain as well at the beginning of the game. And then only when more there’s more than one player who wants the same one is there a bidding war of debt tokens.

I could also make an additional rule for the roles. Like for cleric for instance it normally would cost you 4 debt tokens, however if there is no cards in the supply that let you trash the starting cost is 8 debt tokens for instance.

Guard could normally cost 3 debt tokens, if there are no attack cards in the the supply then the starting cost is 1 debt token.
Title: Re: Dominion: Roles
Post by: ClouduHieh on March 22, 2019, 11:24:46 pm
For highwayman

Cost 5 debt tokens, if their is attack cards in the supply then the starting cost is 3 debt tokens.

For merchant

Cost 1 debt token, if there is no + Buys in the supply then the starting cost is 3 debt tokens.

For farmer

Cost 3 debt tokens, if there are no +2 actions or more in the supply then the starting cost is 5 debt tokens.

And just an oddball one.
For armorer

Cost 4 debt tokens and replace one starting copper with a silver, if there’s a bidding war and the debt tokens exceed 12 replace one starting copper with a gold.

So what do guys think about these rules especially my last oddball rule, armorer isn’t the most handy role but it could be interesting.

And I might even have enough room on the card for the cost and bidding rules.
Title: Re: Dominion: Roles
Post by: ClouduHieh on March 22, 2019, 11:56:08 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/rxpSYK2.jpg)

Here’s my oddball attempt and kinda an alligator green color.
Title: Re: Dominion: Roles
Post by: ClouduHieh on March 23, 2019, 01:27:09 am
Would you guys like to see the rest?

I’ve changed the action of the roles on some of them. And the setup rules are different on each Role.
Title: Re: Dominion: Roles
Post by: Thanar on March 26, 2019, 11:22:55 am
I'm interested in seeing the rest (especially if they're printable cards).
Title: Re: Dominion: Roles
Post by: ClouduHieh on March 27, 2019, 01:04:58 am
(https://i.imgur.com/rGNi1fv.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/pvjc9eE.jpg)


(https://i.imgur.com/wTmSSuj.jpg)
Title: Re: Dominion: Roles
Post by: ClouduHieh on March 27, 2019, 01:09:29 am
(https://i.imgur.com/SD2fW3V.jpg)



(https://i.imgur.com/Y4ZzH2q.jpg)


(https://i.imgur.com/8SP0yQV.jpg)
Title: Re: Dominion: Roles
Post by: Chappy7 on March 27, 2019, 01:24:08 am
I'm sure some people find this idea fun, but I have never been a fan of games with variable player powers.  It's harder to remember whats going on and it is impossible to balance perfectly.  To me it seems more like a theme gimmick.  I love the precision of Dominion, and to me this doesn't have a place in Dominion.

Of course, these are fan cards and I hope you and many others love them.  Just saying my thoughts
Title: Re: Dominion: Roles
Post by: ClouduHieh on March 27, 2019, 11:05:00 am
Well that’s true. This can definitely make dominion different. But I sopose I’m trying to appease a friend he thought dominion was quite boring the first few turns we’re mostly just buying cards. And wouldn’t play just because he found that games like Yugi oh and Pokémon and even digimon were a lot funner. Every turn had action cards to play so to speak. I also enjoy just playing all the unique cards, sometimes I’ll get carried away just playing all the unique cards, and not start buying provinces when I should. I’m the kinda guy who wouldn’t mind if every victory card was removed from the game and just continued to build up my deck until all the action cards were gone. I don’t play dominion to win, I play it for fun. If that means dominion added a little more fun with roles then I’d be all for it. And the thing about it is in dominion some players will quit playing a round when they see a certain card in the game that they hate. I played online with someone who said he absolutely hated ghost ship and would quit if it popped up in the game and true to his word a few rounds later it did pop up.

So I realize dominion roles isn’t for most avid dominion players, but like I said roles don’t need to be in every game, it’s just available if someone wants to play with them. Isn’t there a thread that’s all about really bad card ideas, if they are so bad why is it one of the longest threads. Obviously everyone loves replying about bad cards.

So I guess roles can be put into that category.

If roles add a super power to dominion what would be your super power? Feel free to add your own super power (Role) to this thread.

If you could have a super power in dominion what would it be? Don’t be afraid to be creative.

Title: Re: Dominion: Roles
Post by: hhelibebcnofnena on March 27, 2019, 04:06:16 pm
So I realize dominion roles isn’t for most avid dominion players, but like I said roles don’t need to be in every game, it’s just available if someone wants to play with them. Isn’t there a thread that’s all about really bad card ideas, if they are so bad why is it one of the longest threads. Obviously everyone loves replying about bad cards.

So I guess roles can be put into that category.

I don't think anybody was saying these were bad. As far as I could tell, Chappy7 was simply saying that they weren't for him.
Title: Re: Dominion: Roles
Post by: ClouduHieh on March 27, 2019, 06:28:08 pm
Okay.

So if you could have one card in your entire deck to start with, a particular action that only you had, what would it be. This concept does exist in dominion but you don’t start with the concept. Hence (prizes) from tournament. I after all came up with 6 roles. Is there a role that would be cool to be in dominion with a cool ability. And without replacing an official card, the ability can be similar or the same as a pre existing card. After all it’s cost will be debt tokens. And don’t forget to add a setup: the setup alone will make it not look exactly the same as a pre existing card. And you can add an additional starting card that goes with the role. Just like my farmer has a farm to start with. Roles can have access to any expansion even alchemy just don’t forget to add to the setup that those choosing this role don’t need a potion to choose this role. And of course you can add to the setup replacing one additional starting copper with another potion is fine too.

If ever got a chance to win that contest I was going to choose coming up with new cards with potion in its cost. Oh well doesn’t look like that’s going to happen.
Title: Re: Dominion: Roles
Post by: ClouduHieh on March 27, 2019, 06:32:56 pm
Who knows I may create my own role for alchemy. That can only be chosen when there’s potion in the supply.
Title: Re: Dominion: Roles
Post by: Chappy7 on March 27, 2019, 07:52:55 pm
So I realize dominion roles isn’t for most avid dominion players, but like I said roles don’t need to be in every game, it’s just available if someone wants to play with them. Isn’t there a thread that’s all about really bad card ideas, if they are so bad why is it one of the longest threads. Obviously everyone loves replying about bad cards.

So I guess roles can be put into that category.

I don't think anybody was saying these were bad. As far as I could tell, Chappy7 was simply saying that they weren't for him.

For sure.  The fact that things like this exist in countless games must mean that tons of people like this. So it could definitely be a good idea. The reason I play Dominion, however, is not to have variable player powers, but to be on an even playing field.  This even playing field, imo, elevates dominion over other deck builders which have a rotating row of things to buy.  So no, it is not for me.  But yes, I think it could be implemented well in a way that many people enjoy
Title: Re: Dominion: Roles
Post by: ClouduHieh on March 27, 2019, 08:37:50 pm
Of course nothing wrong with even playing field. But once in a while it’s nice to change things up.

So if you guys want. Post your own role.

I personally was thinking of creating a Star Trek version of dominion. Especially since the dominion tried to take over the alpha quadrant.

With some of the starfleet crew as roles. Oh and quark!

Gold pressed Latium as an additional treasure, moons as a new victory point card. The Vorta, Klingons, the founders, the jemhedar, the different ranks of the federation, the Vulcans, the andorians, the ferengi, the cardasians, the bajorans, ect. As the action cards.

I’m just kidding of course lol. There’s a Star Trek Catan but not a Star Trek dominion. Lol
Title: Re: Dominion: Roles
Post by: Asper on March 28, 2019, 05:22:05 am
Of course nothing wrong with even playing field. But once in a while it’s nice to change things up.

So if you guys want. Post your own role.

I personally was thinking of creating a Star Trek version of dominion. Especially since the dominion tried to take over the alpha quadrant.

With some of the starfleet crew as roles. Oh and quark!

Gold pressed Latium as an additional treasure, moons as a new victory point card. The Vorta, Klingons, the founders, the jemhedar, the different ranks of the federation, the Vulcans, the andorians, the ferengi, the cardasians, the bajorans, ect. As the action cards.

I’m just kidding of course lol. There’s a Star Trek Catan but not a Star Trek dominion. Lol

You might be interested to hear that the author of Dominion was approached about the idea to make a licensed version of his game, and said no. The license he mentioned was not Star Trek, but Star Wars, but from what I read I assumed it was the general idea of licensed Dominion that didn't convince him.
Title: Re: Dominion: Roles
Post by: ClouduHieh on March 28, 2019, 10:30:53 am
I did not know that, but I wouldn’t of done it either Star Wars isn’t as cool as Star Trek anyway. Maybe if Star Wars had a tv series with real people in it, then it would be. The Star Trek series has at least 1000 episodes. And there’s more Star Trek movies than Star Wars movies even.

But that figures they want Star Wars in every game franchise. (Probably cause they can’t hope to match Star Trek) the only game I’ve seen with Star Trek is in catan. There seem to be a bunch of marvel games and Star Wars games in table top games.