Dominion Strategy Forum
Dominion => Rules Questions => Topic started by: Jeebus on January 07, 2019, 12:07:49 am
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I have bought Innovation. With Talisman in play I buy (cost-reduced) BoM. On when-buy I gain a BoM, choosing to immediately play it as a Village. Now I'm supposed to gain
the top card from the pile I bought from the BoM that is on top of the pile. So this should be a BoM. But in Dominion online this is a Village. So I end up gaining a BoM and a Village, instead of two BoMs. Am I right that this is wrong?
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?title=Special%3AFilePath&file=Innovation.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?title=Special%3AFilePath&file=Talisman.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?title=Special%3AFilePath&file=Band of MisfitsPrint2.jpg)
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I gain a Band of Misfits and immediately play it (via Innovation) as a Village. Then I call Duplicate to gain a copy of it. Do I gain a Band of Misfits or a Village?
I buy a Messenger and choose to gain a (cost-reduced) Band of Misfits, immediately playing it (via Innovation) as a Village. Do the other players gain a Band of Misfits or a Village?
The ruling on Disciple is that it gains a copy of the emulated card. The ruling on Smugglers is that it gains a BoM (even when the previous player's gained BoM is currently in play emulating a Duration).
I assume Duplicate and Messenger are like Disciple and will gain a Village?
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?title=Special%3AFilePath&file=Innovation.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?title=Special%3AFilePath&file=Duplicate.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?title=Special%3AFilePath&file=Messenger.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?title=Special%3AFilePath&file=Band of MisfitsPrint2.jpg)
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?title=Special%3AFilePath&file=Disciple.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?title=Special%3AFilePath&file=Smugglers.jpg)
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I gain a Band of Misfits and immediately play it (via Innovation) as a Village. Then I call Duplicate to gain a copy of it. Do I gain a Band of Misfits or a Village?
I buy a Messenger and choose to gain a (cost-reduced) Band of Misfits, immediately playing it (via Innovation) as a Village. Do the other players gain a Band of Misfits or a Village?
The ruling on Disciples is that it gains a copy of the emulated card. The ruling on Smugglers is that it gains a BoM (even when the previous player's gained BoM is currently in play emulating a Duration).
I assume Duplicate and Messenger are like Disciple and will gain a Village?
The current ruling is that all of these cards (Duplicate Messenger Disciple Talisman) that describe a card and then gain a copy of it, are looking at the card a second time then, and so in the case of BoM played as Village, gain a Village. This is in line with Procession / Band of Misfits.
Smugglers is different because it isn't phrased like that - it looks at a list of "cards they gained."
As usual the problem is the shapeshifting Band of Misfits. Probably I should have errata'd it when doing the second editions (to e.g. "Play a cheaper Action card from the Supply, leaving it there," which yes lets you keep replaying it as a one-shot).
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With Talisman in play I buy (cost-reduced) BoM. On when-buy I gain a BoM, choosing to immediately play it as a Village. Now I'm supposed to gain the top card from the pile I bought from.
Note that of course that's not how Talisman works. If you buy the last Catapult, Talisman won't gain you a Rocks. It will try and fail to gain a Catapult. It will gain the last Catapult and then your buy will fail to gain Catapult.
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In the case of Innovation + Talisman + Band of Misfits, we expect two cards to be gained, one after the other. My understanding is:
- the first card is being gained due to Talisman. No question that that is a Band of Misfits.
- the second card is being gained due to Band of Misfits having been bought. Even though the first one has now been played and is now a village, this second one knows nothing about Talisman or Innovation or anything; it would seem unintuitive for this one to become a Village.
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I agree. The the second card being gained is the original card bought, and that was a BoM. The player should gain a BoM (assuming there is still one in the pile). And I can confirm that Dominion Online handles this as Jeebus described (so incorrectly IMO).
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In the case of Innovation + Talisman + Band of Misfits, we expect two cards to be gained, one after the other. My understanding is:
- the first card is being gained due to Talisman. No question that that is a Band of Misfits.
- the second card is being gained due to Band of Misfits having been bought. Even though the first one has now been played and is now a village, this second one knows nothing about Talisman or Innovation or anything; it would seem unintuitive for this one to become a Village.
Yes, sorry. Talisman is when-buy, not when-gain. You bought Band of Misfits and Talisman gains that; Innovation hasn't happened yet.
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With Talisman in play I buy (cost-reduced) BoM. On when-buy I gain a BoM, choosing to immediately play it as a Village. Now I'm supposed to gain the top card from the pile I bought from.
Note that of course that's not how Talisman works. If you buy the last Catapult, Talisman won't gain you a Rocks. It will try and fail to gain a Catapult. It will gain the last Catapult and then your buy will fail to gain Catapult.
Yes, what I should have written was "the BoM that is on top of the pile". It's not really the card bought, since that card is no longer there. This matters when you buy the last available copy of a card with Talisman (or Port) and Trader. I was trying to describe it as accurately as possible because of this (but failed). But I was thinking about it exactly as Infangthief described it.
Thanks for your replies.
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As usual the problem is the shapeshifting Band of Misfits. Probably I should have errata'd it when doing the second editions (to e.g. "Play a cheaper Action card from the Supply, leaving it there," which yes lets you keep replaying it as a one-shot).
Indeed, shapeshifting cards causes problems. In my Temporum client, I implemented Age of Cybernetics simply by shapeshifting the card you play into the Perpetual card you are copying. In super rare cases, you could discard it from play, and then eventually have it shuffled back into the draw deck... at which point it was still an extra copy of the card you copied. I don't even remember if I ever fixed that or not; because it's super rare.
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I checked Dominion online, and Messenger works correctly, but Duplicate does not. It's probably because Messenger is two consecutive effects, while Duplicate triggers as a when-gain at the same time as Innovation.