Dominion Strategy Forum

Miscellaneous => Forum Games => Mafia Game Threads => Topic started by: faust on December 31, 2018, 05:07:05 am

Title: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Game over)
Post by: faust on December 31, 2018, 05:07:05 am
Welcome to RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia!

Mod: faust

This is a closed game for 14 players. Some more information will be provided in the next post.

Players:
1. SpaceAnemone
2. jotheonah
3. LaLight
4. DatSwan
5. mail-mi
6. Awaclus
7. 2.71828.....
8. WestCoastDidds
9. Robz888 UmbrageOfSnow
10. hypercube
11. mcmcsalot
12. ashersky
13. Galzria Haddock
14. Glooble

Spectators tagged:

Day starts: Day 1 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=19374.msg782531#msg782531) | Day 2 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=19374.msg783707#msg783707) | Day 3 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=19374.msg785284#msg785284) | Day 4 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=19374.msg786513#msg786513)

General rules

Changes to the usual rule sets are marked in olive.

The Golden Rule:


Please remember that this is a game and your main objective is to have fun!  Be considerate of each other, donít get personal, and enjoy the game. Please read The Civility Pledge (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=7695.0) before signing up for any mafia game on this site.  If you have not /pledged there, you cannot play. Excessive personal attacks or uncivil behavior may be dealt with by modifiers or modkills.

1. General Gameplay and Etiquette:

1. You may not quote information (either real or fabricated) from any game-related source other than the thread you are posting in. This means no quotes from PMs and no quotes from QTs in the main thread or in another QT. Paraphrasing is acceptable. If you are unsure whether a post is legal, please ask the moderator before posting.
2. There is to be NO personal communication outside of the forum postings and the QTs specifically designed for this purpose.
3. As a general rule you should aim for one post every 12 hours, minimum, to keep the game moving.

2. Voting, Deadlines, and Player Death:

1. Day phases will last 7 days, Night lasts at least 48 hours. Night action deadline is 36 hours after night start.
2. A simple majority (rounded up) of all living members must agree on one person for a lynch to occur prior to deadline.
3. Once you have reached a simple majority no further unvoting will change someoneís fate. Further votes will also be ignored.
4. Once a player is lynched, the game enters twilight until the mod locks the thread; all players including the one who was lynched may continue to post during twilight.
5. If the deadline is hit without a player reaching the majority of votes, the player that would take the least number of additional votes to lynch dies. If there is a tie, a town player dies before a non-town player. Otherwise, who dies is determined randomly.
6. Please submit votes as: Vote: PlayerName.  Votes in another format may or may not be counted. This is up to the mod's discretion. Obvious abbreviations or nicknames will be counted so long as they are unambiguous.
7. Please submit vote revocations Unvote. Unvotes are not necessary before changing votes.
8. You may Vote: No Lynch - a simple majority of these vote types are required to send the game to Night phase without a lynch.
10. Any time you are dead (either via lynch or night kill) you may no longer post in the game or in shared Quicktopics. This means that you do not even get a ďBahĒ post. The dead in this game are silent.
11. If the thread is locked, you may not post.  Threads can be locked for various reasons, but no matter what the reason, you may not post.  The mod may forget to lock the thread, but if they say it is locked, it is still locked.

3. Miscellaneous/Mechanics:

1. Bold, olive text is reserved for the mod.  No invisible/small text is allowed, nor is cryptography.
2. If you have an issue/problem with the game, please discuss this in your role QT.  Do not post issues/complaints in the game thread.
3. The Mods may make mistakes - please point out any mistakes gently.  Mistakes will be corrected where possible, but sometimes mistakes are made that cannot be reversed.  These will stand as final to be commiserated over after the game.
4. Please bold all requests to the Mods so that they donít get missed.
5. Prods of missing players may be issued after 24 hours of no activity.  A prodded player has 24 hours to respond or risks replacement.  A player who has been prodded 2 times is subject to replacement under rule 3.9 without further notice. Players with announced VLA are exempt from this rule the first time it happens.
6. If you anticipate being unavailable for more than a 48-hour period please post a notice to that effect in the thread.  Treat this game as a commitment.  Be considerate Ė donít leave us hanging. Players who fail to post for 48 hours without an announcement risk being subject to replacement and/or being modkilled without further notice.
7. Please do not discuss ongoing games, it can unintentionally affect the other game. Do not discuss this game in any thread that is not directly related to it.
8. Rule violations will be dealt with according to their severity, which may include modkill(s) if needed.
9. Players who discover they are too busy to play in a game or want to leave the game for civility issues are not allowed to officially /out in the thread.  A request to /out must only be done via a post in the role QT. Please do not use this as a manipulation technique.  (Note players may continue to threaten to /out or imply that they might as long as it does not include an official request). Requests to /out are final once submitted. There will be no /outing and then /inning back into the game so make sure that when you /out you have thought it through and really want to do it. Players that can't be replaced will simply be mod-killed. Whether your request to /out will lead to replacement or a modkill is up to the mod's discretion.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Signups open!)
Post by: faust on December 31, 2018, 05:07:17 am
Setup

This is a closed setup. It contains roles with abilities designed specifically for this game as well as standard abilities. A player may have more or less than one ability. There is at least one possibility in this game for a player to change their alignment. Care has been taken to make this as balanced as possible. Noone's alignment can change without their consent.

Some roles in this game are AIs. Those may interact differently with other abilities than non-AI roles.

A note on flavor

This game uses the flavor from the Imperial Radch book series by Ann Leckie. Knowledge of the flavor is not required to play the game, but may enhance your experience. The setting is roughly at the start of the second book. I have taken some liberties with the source material in order to fit it to a mafia framework.

Town is known as Radch-aligned in this game. The town win condition is as follows:
Quote
You win when all threats to the Radch have been eliminated, and there is at least one Radch-aligned player left alive, or nothing can stop this from happening.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Signups open!)
Post by: Awaclus on December 31, 2018, 06:15:39 am
Welcome to RMM48: Cancer Mafia!

Cool! I've always wanted to play RMM48: Cancer Mafia!
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Signups open!)
Post by: faust on December 31, 2018, 06:42:21 am
Welcome to RMM48: Cancer Mafia!

Cool! I've always wanted to play RMM48: Cancer Mafia!

Oops. Fixed.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Signups open!)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on December 31, 2018, 12:32:27 pm
Very much /in!!
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Signups open!)
Post by: jotheonah on December 31, 2018, 01:35:03 pm
I was going to run a RM! But you can go first. :P

I love the Ancillary Series and I love role madness so I'm totes /in.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Signups open!)
Post by: LaLight on January 01, 2019, 08:00:15 am
/in, but donít know the flavor
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Signups open!)
Post by: DatSwan on January 01, 2019, 08:53:14 pm
/in
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Signups open!)
Post by: mail-mi on January 02, 2019, 12:52:27 am
/in

Hello
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Signups open!)
Post by: faust on January 02, 2019, 03:31:31 am
/in

Hello
Wow, welcome back! Has it really been 2 years already?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Signups open!)
Post by: LaLight on January 02, 2019, 06:28:19 am
/in

Hello

Hi! Yesterday I was walking with Calamitas who is now in Moscow and we were talking about you! Nice to have you back
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Signups open!)
Post by: Awaclus on January 02, 2019, 06:42:44 am
/in
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Signups open!)
Post by: mail-mi on January 02, 2019, 04:32:48 pm
/in

Hello
Wow, welcome back! Has it really been 2 years already?

It has. 2 years and a month, almost. It's good to be back.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Signups open!)
Post by: mail-mi on January 02, 2019, 04:33:27 pm
/in

Hello

Hi! Yesterday I was walking with Calamitas who is now in Moscow and we were talking about you! Nice to have you back

Aww, I'm touched.  ;D
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Signups open!)
Post by: 2.71828..... on January 03, 2019, 09:36:21 am
/in
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Signups open!)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on January 03, 2019, 02:13:17 pm
Hooray for the Radch!

/in
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Signups open!)
Post by: DatSwan on January 04, 2019, 08:48:17 am
/in

bump? :P
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Signups open!)
Post by: Robz888 on January 04, 2019, 11:28:30 am
/in
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Signups open!)
Post by: hypercube on January 04, 2019, 07:29:38 pm
/in
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (4 spots left!)
Post by: mcmcsalot on January 07, 2019, 09:53:32 am
/in
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (3 spots left!)
Post by: ashersky on January 09, 2019, 02:17:44 am
/instead
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (3 spots left!)
Post by: ashersky on January 09, 2019, 02:17:48 am
/instead
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (3 spots left!)
Post by: ashersky on January 09, 2019, 02:18:15 am
Odd.

/in of course.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (2 spots left!)
Post by: UmbrageOfSnow on January 09, 2019, 12:23:02 pm
I don't want to /in on this right now, I'm a bit worried about having enough time for this and modding M121 (and don't know the flavor) but I can probably be a replacement if you need one later, and if it gets far enough into the game that you probably won't need one, send me a Speccy link please!
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (2 spots left!)
Post by: mail-mi on January 09, 2019, 02:45:05 pm
Note: I am only gonna be able to be in 1 mafia game at a time, so if Philosopher's mafia mafia starts before this, I will have to out.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (2 spots left!)
Post by: Galzria on January 09, 2019, 10:14:58 pm
Can anybody find me.... somebody to hammer????
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (2 spots left!)
Post by: DatSwan on January 09, 2019, 10:24:16 pm
Can anybody find me.... somebody to hammer????

Clever girl....
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (2 spots left!)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on January 09, 2019, 10:29:15 pm
Nah, dude....thatís me!
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (2 spots left!)
Post by: DatSwan on January 09, 2019, 11:13:58 pm
Nah, dude....thatís me!

Wait for it....
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (1 spot left!)
Post by: Glooble on January 10, 2019, 05:19:09 pm
/in

I'm back. jtotheonah convinced me.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (1 spot left!)
Post by: Galzria on January 10, 2019, 08:26:02 pm
/in

I'm back. jtotheonah convinced me.

Glooble!
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (1 spot left!)
Post by: Galzria on January 10, 2019, 08:30:12 pm
/in

I'm back. jtotheonah convinced me.

Glooble!

I think this makes for three separate twin-claims!
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Full! PMs coming soon.)
Post by: faust on January 11, 2019, 07:56:35 am
PMs are out! N0 starts now and lasts until January 13, 2019, 04:00:00 am. Please confirm that you have read your role in your QT.

THREAD LOCKED! (except for tags)
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Night 0)
Post by: Debatepro on January 11, 2019, 12:51:38 pm
/tag
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: faust on January 13, 2019, 04:08:19 am
Athoek System was a relatively quiet corner of the vast expanse of Radch space. System Governor Giarod knew enough of the political game to make sure to keep the balance between the powerful families established here and the will of the so-called common people, and usually the Lord of the Radch would not interfere in local affairs.

But things had changed. Gates had been destroyed, and information on what exactly happened was scarce. Whatever turmoil the Radch was engulfed in, Giarod vowed to keep it out of Athoek System. That was, until she received the call from the Fleet Captain. She felt that the balance she kept was fundamentally disturbed, and it would take all of her to keep everything from toppling and burying herself under it.


Day 1 begins!

Vote Count 1.0

Not Voting (14): SpaceAnemone, jotheonah, LaLight, DatSwan, mail-mi, Awaclus, 2.71828....., WestCoastDidds, Robz888, hypercube, mcmcsalot, ashersky, Galzria, Glooble

WIth 14 alive, it takes 8 to lynch. Day 1 ends on January 20, 2019, 04:00:00 am.

Thread unlocked!
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Awaclus on January 13, 2019, 04:19:41 am
Oh no, I think we accidentally lynched this Not Voting guy.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on January 13, 2019, 04:47:06 am
Oh no, I think we accidentally lynched this Not Voting guy.

Maybe there's still time to save her if we all pile on someone else!

vote: Awaclus
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Awaclus on January 13, 2019, 05:20:50 am
Good idea! Vote: Awaclus
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Galzria on January 13, 2019, 05:22:36 am
Oh no, I think we accidentally lynched this Not Voting guy.

Maybe there's still time to save her if we all pile on someone else!

vote: Awaclus

The only way you would know their preferred gender pronoun already is if you asked already. Which wouldíve been during N0. In your scum QT. vote: Space
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: DatSwan on January 13, 2019, 06:04:20 am
Hey all - I am traveling for another few days. On vacation, not work, so should be around... but the time zone thing kind of messes me up... so probably playing catch up for the next 5 days until I am home.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on January 13, 2019, 07:43:34 am
Oh no, I think we accidentally lynched this Not Voting guy.

Maybe there's still time to save her if we all pile on someone else!

vote: Awaclus

The only way you would know their preferred gender pronoun already is if you asked already. Which wouldíve been during N0. In your scum QT. vote: Space

Huh? What even is this "gender" nonsense? You must be an uncivilised outsider! Vote: Galz

And in case anyone's confused, here's a quote from the Ancillary Justice wikipedia page: "The Radchaai do not distinguish people by gender, which Leckie conveys by using female personal pronouns for everybody, and by having the Radchaai main character guess wrongly when she has to use languages with gender-specific pronouns."
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Glooble on January 13, 2019, 07:44:52 am
Oh no, I think we accidentally lynched this Not Voting guy.

Maybe there's still time to save her if we all pile on someone else!

vote: Awaclus

The only way you would know their preferred gender pronoun already is if you asked already. Which wouldíve been during N0. In your scum QT. vote: Space

The Radchaii use she/her pronouns for everyone.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Glooble on January 13, 2019, 07:46:40 am
Not knowing that makes you not Radchaii, so... vote: Galzria
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: 2.71828..... on January 13, 2019, 08:16:33 am
Rule #1- never vote based on flavor

Vote: Glooble

Rule #2- Don't lynch people I haven't played with before on D1

Unvote

Rule #3- LaLight is always scum

Vote: LaLight

Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: 2.71828..... on January 13, 2019, 08:19:53 am
And Hi! Traveling today, so might not be too active,
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on January 13, 2019, 09:13:34 am
The universal she/her is one of the reasons the books are awesome! Gender scholars FTW!

Iím a she in both Radchaii and English, tho
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: hypercube on January 13, 2019, 09:18:41 am
Hi everyone!

I haven't read the Radch series, but I have read enough sci-fi to know that the enemy is often space, so vote: Space.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Robz888 on January 13, 2019, 10:41:50 am
I shall do something I have not done in many, many years... Vote: Glooble

Shoutout to Mafia 4!
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mail-mi on January 13, 2019, 11:21:57 am
Hello!

So, I just started college this week and currently my life is homework. I will be as active as I can, but homework takes a higher priority.

That being said, vote: robz
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Glooble on January 13, 2019, 11:42:49 am
Good to see you too, Robz.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: LaLight on January 13, 2019, 12:26:15 pm
You should study, not play! vote: mail-mi
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: jotheonah on January 13, 2019, 12:26:23 pm
Hi everyone!

Iíll vote: Awaclus because Iíve recently learned that wagons is good.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: LaLight on January 13, 2019, 12:27:27 pm
Rule #1- never vote based on flavor

Vote: Glooble

Rule #2- Don't lynch people I haven't played with before on D1

Unvote

Rule #3- LaLight is always scum

Vote: LaLight

Have you ever seen my signature

vote: 2.71828..... for confusing me with ww
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Robz888 on January 13, 2019, 12:28:12 pm
Hello!

So, I just started college this week and currently my life is homework. I will be as active as I can, but homework takes a higher priority.

That being said, vote: robz

Gah you are still so young Vote: Mail-mi
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mail-mi on January 13, 2019, 12:29:27 pm
Hello!

So, I just started college this week and currently my life is homework. I will be as active as I can, but homework takes a higher priority.

That being said, vote: robz

Gah you are still so young Vote: Mail-mi

Robz, here, is demonstrating his tendency toward child abuse. That is a scum trait. ergo, he is scum, let's lynch him

You should study, not play! vote: mail-mi

i have plenty of time

...

Anyway, let's see, who do I not know here...
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mail-mi on January 13, 2019, 12:32:48 pm
1. SpaceAnemone - I've played with you before.
2. jotheonah - I've played with you before too.
3. LaLight - you're cool
4. DatSwan - no idea
5. mail-mi - is the best
6. Awaclus - I've played with you before
7. 2.71828..... - hi e, I'm in a math class right now
8. WestCoastDidds - no idea
9. Robz888 - is scum
10. hypercube - no idea
11. mcmcsalot - is Robz's brother, was new the same time I was new (Remember that first newbie game?)
12. ashersky - good old ash, good to see you again. What's your plan?
13. Galzria - I might have played with you? I think you modded the pirates game
14. Glooble - don't think I've ever played with you.

So, WestCoast, DatSwan, hypercube, and Glooble, what's your mafia playing experience?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: 2.71828..... on January 13, 2019, 12:37:53 pm
7. 2.71828..... - hi e, I'm in a math class right now

Sounds like fun.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: 2.71828..... on January 13, 2019, 12:39:54 pm
Rule #1- never vote based on flavor

Vote: Glooble

Rule #2- Don't lynch people I haven't played with before on D1

Unvote

Rule #3- LaLight is always scum

Vote: LaLight

Have you ever seen my signature

vote: 2.71828..... for confusing me with ww

Well, WW isn't in this game, is he. Had to pick someone to vote for, and you seemed to be a good candidate
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Glooble on January 13, 2019, 12:42:25 pm

So, WestCoast, DatSwan, hypercube, and Glooble, what's your mafia playing experience?

I played in this forum years and years ago. I stopped because I was taking it too seriously and it was stressing me out.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mail-mi on January 13, 2019, 12:45:13 pm

So, WestCoast, DatSwan, hypercube, and Glooble, what's your mafia playing experience?

I played in this forum years and years ago. I stopped because I was taking it too seriously and it was stressing me out.

cool

are you scum?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Glooble on January 13, 2019, 12:46:16 pm

So, WestCoast, DatSwan, hypercube, and Glooble, what's your mafia playing experience?

I played in this forum years and years ago. I stopped because I was taking it too seriously and it was stressing me out.

cool

are you scum?


I am Radch-aligned in this game.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: LaLight on January 13, 2019, 12:47:43 pm

So, WestCoast, DatSwan, hypercube, and Glooble, what's your mafia playing experience?

I played in this forum years and years ago. I stopped because I was taking it too seriously and it was stressing me out.

cool

are you scum?

Are you trying to stress them out?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Galzria on January 13, 2019, 12:50:45 pm
1. SpaceAnemone - I've played with you before.
2. jotheonah - I've played with you before too.
3. LaLight - you're cool
4. DatSwan - no idea
5. mail-mi - is the best
6. Awaclus - I've played with you before
7. 2.71828..... - hi e, I'm in a math class right now
8. WestCoastDidds - no idea
9. Robz888 - is scum
10. hypercube - no idea
11. mcmcsalot - is Robz's brother, was new the same time I was new (Remember that first newbie game?)
12. ashersky - good old ash, good to see you again. What's your plan?
13. Galzria - I might have played with you? I think you modded the pirates game
14. Glooble - don't think I've ever played with you.

So, WestCoast, DatSwan, hypercube, and Glooble, what's your mafia playing experience?

Weíve played many games together! Although itís been quite awhile...
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: LaLight on January 13, 2019, 12:52:38 pm
Can anyone tell anything about the flavor please?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Galzria on January 13, 2019, 12:53:16 pm
Hello!

So, I just started college this week and currently my life is homework. I will be as active as I can, but homework takes a higher priority.

That being said, vote: robz

Gah you are still so young Vote: Mail-mi

Robz, here, is demonstrating his tendency toward child abuse. That is a scum trait. ergo, he is scum, let's lynch him

You should study, not play! vote: mail-mi

i have plenty of time

...

Anyway, let's see, who do I not know here...

I work with kids, so I appreciate this case. vote: Robz
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Galzria on January 13, 2019, 12:54:23 pm
Oh no, I think we accidentally lynched this Not Voting guy.

Maybe there's still time to save her if we all pile on someone else!

vote: Awaclus

The only way you would know their preferred gender pronoun already is if you asked already. Which wouldíve been during N0. In your scum QT. vote: Space

Huh? What even is this "gender" nonsense? You must be an uncivilised outsider! Vote: Galz

And in case anyone's confused, here's a quote from the Ancillary Justice wikipedia page: "The Radchaai do not distinguish people by gender, which Leckie conveys by using female personal pronouns for everybody, and by having the Radchaai main character guess wrongly when she has to use languages with gender-specific pronouns."

Hum. I have been schooled.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Glooble on January 13, 2019, 01:00:35 pm
Can anyone tell anything about the flavor please?

Itís been a little while since Iíve read the books. The Radch is an empire The is expanding, taking over humanity using living ships to annex planets. The ships can also control some number of human bodies, called Ancillaries (you donít want to know where they get the bodies.) There are aliens, but they are inscrutable and difficult to communicate with. One alien race, the Presger, is only stopped from completely annihilating humanity by a treaty, and if any individual human violates the treaty it would be very, very bad. Thereís also the Rrr and the Geck but no one knows much about them.

The Radch is ruled by Aanander Mianani (or something) and her many clones. Her mind is spread across lots of clone bodies all over the empire. Spoilers for book one Her mind seems to have split and now some of her are working against the others, threatening a civil war within the Radch
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mail-mi on January 13, 2019, 01:03:22 pm

So, WestCoast, DatSwan, hypercube, and Glooble, what's your mafia playing experience?

I played in this forum years and years ago. I stopped because I was taking it too seriously and it was stressing me out.

cool

are you scum?

Are you trying to stress them out?

It was just a question
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mail-mi on January 13, 2019, 01:04:13 pm

So, WestCoast, DatSwan, hypercube, and Glooble, what's your mafia playing experience?

I played in this forum years and years ago. I stopped because I was taking it too seriously and it was stressing me out.

cool

are you scum?


I am Radch-aligned in this game.

cool, me too

vote robz with me
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: 2.71828..... on January 13, 2019, 01:09:00 pm

So, WestCoast, DatSwan, hypercube, and Glooble, what's your mafia playing experience?

I played in this forum years and years ago. I stopped because I was taking it too seriously and it was stressing me out.

cool

are you scum?


I am Radch-aligned in this game.

cool, me too

vote robz with me

Robz is never scum D1 though. Maybe D3 or 4
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Glooble on January 13, 2019, 01:15:59 pm

So, WestCoast, DatSwan, hypercube, and Glooble, what's your mafia playing experience?

I played in this forum years and years ago. I stopped because I was taking it too seriously and it was stressing me out.

cool

are you scum?


I am Radch-aligned in this game.

cool, me too

vote robz with me

Normally I donít like to vote for someone just for voting for me. Whatís the case for Robz?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: jotheonah on January 13, 2019, 01:28:20 pm
Oh by the way: Twinclaim. Glooble and I are twins.

This is actually the original twinclaim from which the term originates.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Robz888 on January 13, 2019, 01:49:22 pm
Gloobe and Jo are twins, me and mcmc are brothers, and Galz and DatSwan are roommates. Many twinclaims!
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: jotheonah on January 13, 2019, 02:06:52 pm
Gloobe and Jo are twins, me and mcmc are brothers, and Galz and DatSwan are roommates. Many twinclaims!

it seems like e and mail-mi maybe know each other too.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: 2.71828..... on January 13, 2019, 03:27:24 pm
Gloobe and Jo are twins, me and mcmc are brothers, and Galz and DatSwan are roommates. Many twinclaims!

it seems like e and mail-mi maybe know each other too.

We don't. I was a math major though....so long ago....
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on January 13, 2019, 03:44:06 pm
Can anyone tell anything about the flavor please?

Itís been a little while since Iíve read the books. The Radch is an empire The is expanding, taking over humanity using living ships to annex planets. The ships can also control some number of human bodies, called Ancillaries (you donít want to know where they get the bodies.) There are aliens, but they are inscrutable and difficult to communicate with. One alien race, the Presger, is only stopped from completely annihilating humanity by a treaty, and if any individual human violates the treaty it would be very, very bad. Thereís also the Rrr and the Geck but no one knows much about them.

The Radch is ruled by Aanander Mianani (or something) and her many clones. Her mind is spread across lots of clone bodies all over the empire. Spoilers for book one Her mind seems to have split and now some of her are working against the others, threatening a civil war within the Radch

All of this is correct, also, the lead character is Breq (the Fleet Captain), she is the AI of a ship contained in a human body. She once had lots of bodies, but now has just one, but she still has the awareness that she her mind used to be in many bodies. Her second in command is Seivarden, a human.

AIs are all over the place...Ships are AIs, and the space stations have an AI, too. Some beings have accesses where they can communicate directly with the Ship or Station on a private channel and they have access to the information they get forommcareras, connected soldiers, and other ship/station data. AIs try to keep the peace, and they have been programmed with emotions so that they can actively look out for the well being of their humans.

In the books, there are two factions Radchaii factions at odds with another.  One side is trying to shift from conquering new worlds and enslaving the humans that live there and is pushing for expansion and continued use of ancillaries. Most of the folx (humans and AIs) in Apotheok quadrant are of the former, but the latter are more dangerous.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on January 13, 2019, 03:51:56 pm

@mail-mi (and Glooble) Iím relatively new....Iíve played 4 games since August when I joined. Hypercube and I started together in NM11. I knew nothing about that game at all before then. I have lots of newb questions and enjoy the games most when the late-night bourbon gang is posting. 

School is just starting for me, too, but I teach so subistitute grading for homework, whatever...the struggle is real. On T/Th, I pretty much can only play during office hours. So, if you wonder what people do during office hours....
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: LaLight on January 13, 2019, 03:57:12 pm
yeah well, I basically only play during office hours with really rare exceptions, hence the limited access on weekends
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on January 13, 2019, 04:03:16 pm
yeah well, I basically only play during office hours with really rare exceptions, hence the limited access on weekends

And here I thought you just had a really healthy life/work/game balance!
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: LaLight on January 13, 2019, 04:03:58 pm
yeah well, I basically only play during office hours with really rare exceptions, hence the limited access on weekends

And here I thought you just had a really healthy life/work/game balance!

well, you're not entirely wrong :)
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Robz888 on January 13, 2019, 04:45:08 pm
In the last RMM game I played, I had the ability to switch alignments, and I switched from evil to good to help the town, and Galz didn't believe me!
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: jotheonah on January 13, 2019, 04:47:32 pm
I have a feeling, based on flavor, that alignment switching is not going to be voluntary. I suspect Aanander Mianani will have some kind of cult leader mechanic. Could be wrong of course.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Signups open!)
Post by: Awaclus on January 13, 2019, 04:49:05 pm
I have a feeling, based on flavor, that alignment switching is not going to be voluntary. I suspect Aanander Mianani will have some kind of cult leader mechanic. Could be wrong of course.

Noone's alignment can change without their consent.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: jotheonah on January 13, 2019, 04:53:02 pm
I stand corrected.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on January 13, 2019, 05:39:16 pm
People who have given at least some indication they've read Ancillary Justice: WCD, Glooble, joth (and me!)

People who appear not to know the flavour at all: Galz, LL.

What about the rest of you?

Fun fact: I once cosplayed Breq at a convention. I usually hate dressing up, but walking around with a pretty tea bowl wearing an "Awn Elming" pin seemed acceptable :-)
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Glooble on January 13, 2019, 05:44:02 pm
Did you get the pin from one of her readings?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on January 13, 2019, 05:44:28 pm
yeah well, I basically only play during office hours with really rare exceptions, hence the limited access on weekends

And here I thought you just had a really healthy life/work/game balance!

Are the two of you using different definitions of "office hours" here? :-P
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on January 13, 2019, 05:45:49 pm
Did you get the pin from one of her readings?

I bought a bag of them from her on Etsy for me and several other friends here who're fans. It came with signed book plates :-)

(I'm based in the UK.. not sure she does a lot of readings over here).
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mail-mi on January 13, 2019, 05:52:39 pm
People who have given at least some indication they've read Ancillary Justice: WCD, Glooble, joth (and me!)

People who appear not to know the flavour at all: Galz, LL.

What about the rest of you?

Fun fact: I once cosplayed Breq at a convention. I usually hate dressing up, but walking around with a pretty tea bowl wearing an "Awn Elming" pin seemed acceptable :-)

I have 0 knowledge of flavor. Is there a Radch wiki I can read that would help?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on January 13, 2019, 05:53:45 pm
On the subject of being in the UK, what timezones are the rest of you in? Who's actually likely to be awake for a 4am forum time deadline?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: 2.71828..... on January 13, 2019, 05:58:44 pm
I have no knowledge of the flavor.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on January 13, 2019, 05:59:40 pm
People who have given at least some indication they've read Ancillary Justice: WCD, Glooble, joth (and me!)

People who appear not to know the flavour at all: Galz, LL.

What about the rest of you?

Fun fact: I once cosplayed Breq at a convention. I usually hate dressing up, but walking around with a pretty tea bowl wearing an "Awn Elming" pin seemed acceptable :-)

I have 0 knowledge of flavor. Is there a Radch wiki I can read that would help?

Hmm.. no idea really. Google finds me this wiki, but I haven't determined whether it's something you'd think would help: http://imperial-radch.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Content

I can definitely recommend reading Ancillary Justice, though!
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mail-mi on January 13, 2019, 05:59:55 pm
On the subject of being in the UK, what timezones are the rest of you in? Who's actually likely to be awake for a 4am forum time deadline?

I'm in mountain time zone, so it'll be 2 am for me. I can probably be there til like 2 hours before deadline
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Glooble on January 13, 2019, 06:06:54 pm
Iím in Eastern time but I go to bed pretty early.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on January 13, 2019, 06:13:47 pm

Fun fact: I once cosplayed Breq at a convention. I usually hate dressing up, but walking around with a pretty tea bowl wearing an "Awn Elming" pin seemed acceptable :-)

I love this!
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Awaclus on January 13, 2019, 06:14:55 pm
I'm in UTC+2. I woke up at 21 today (technically yesterday) and I'm trying to fix my sleep schedule by moving it forward so I would assume that I'm awake for the deadline at least on D1, but no guarantees.

I haven't even heard of the flavor.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on January 13, 2019, 06:15:54 pm
Iím in Eastern time but I go to bed pretty early.

Is eastern the same as forum time?

I'm guessing from mail-mi's comment that Mountain is FT-2.

I'm on FT+5, but my sleep hours are 1am-9am local time, so that is exactly the 8 hours running up to the deadline.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on January 13, 2019, 06:18:18 pm
Yes, forum time is Eastern. Iím an in US Central, an hour behind Forum Time (FT-1).

I go to bed before 10 on weekdays, so definitely not around at deadline
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Awaclus on January 13, 2019, 06:18:37 pm
Man, this is such a crappy wagon. Let's join a different one.

Vote: Galzria
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: hypercube on January 13, 2019, 07:00:57 pm
So, WestCoast, DatSwan, hypercube, and Glooble, what's your mafia playing experience?

This is my fourth game of forum mafia. I've played a decent amount IRL as well.

I'm in UTC +1, usual posting hours for me are 500 FT to 1900 FT or so. I should be able to make a 400 FT deadline.

Note that we have plurality lynching but having a tied vote is really bad:

Quote
If the deadline is hit without a player reaching the majority of votes, the player that would take the least number of additional votes to lynch dies. If there is a tie, a town player dies before a non-town player. Otherwise, who dies is determined randomly.

The wording "the player that would take the least number of additional votes to lynch dies" seems non-standard and suggests that there's going to be something strange going on with voting.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mail-mi on January 13, 2019, 07:01:32 pm
Townread on space. I remember him usually doing all this setup and stuff like this as town

Or maybe it's just a spaceread on space.

Man, this is such a crappy wagon. Let's join a different one.

Vote: Galzria

ok vote: galzria
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Robz888 on January 13, 2019, 07:14:35 pm
I have zero knowledge of the flavor and won't learn it.

The disclaimer about alignment switches makes me think we will have them, somehow. I think it's something faust would enjoy trying to do and figure out how to make it balanced. Some kind of cult mechanic isn't crazy either, though. Maybe scum can recruit?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on January 13, 2019, 07:17:57 pm
I remember him usually doing all this setup and stuff like this as town

Okay, let's get this out of the way: I AM NOT, AND NEVER HAVE BEEN, A "HE"!!! Sorry for being shouty, but while you've been gone, the whole forum has got a lot more progressive about respecting people's gender presentation and pronouns, and I'd really like to keep that progress!

My preferred pronoun is they/them, and it's even in my sig line to help people remember. I'll settle for she/her in general, and especially for this game, since it's very in keeping for the flavour.



Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mail-mi on January 13, 2019, 07:20:46 pm
I remember him usually doing all this setup and stuff like this as town

Okay, let's get this out of the way: I AM NOT, AND NEVER HAVE BEEN, A "HE"!!! Sorry for being shouty, but while you've been gone, the whole forum has got a lot more progressive about respecting people's gender presentation and pronouns, and I'd really like to keep that progress!

My preferred pronoun is they/them, and it's even in my sig line to help people remember. I'll settle for she/her in general, and especially for this game, since it's very in keeping for the flavour.
WOOPS sorry about that.

Townread on space, I remember her doing this setup stuff as town
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on January 13, 2019, 07:28:59 pm
Actually, Vote: mail-mi

While it might sound like pronoun-omgus, I've just realised that I haven't been doing setup stuff at all, so characterizing me as having done so is weird. I've talked about the flavour, because it's something I like, and about timezones because it's something I'm generally conscious of as someone who's not on the American continent.

I haven't really begun posting my thoughts on how the game mechanics and real set-up stuff might go, because the stuff I've thought of doesn't really fit with a anything I'd see as a balanced game.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Awaclus on January 13, 2019, 07:29:27 pm
it's even in my sig line to help people remember.

To be fair, the way you have it in your sig mostly just makes it look like you modded the Pronouns: they/them mafia.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mail-mi on January 13, 2019, 07:34:23 pm
Actually, Vote: mail-mi

While it might sound like pronoun-omgus, I've just realised that I haven't been doing setup stuff at all, so characterizing me as having done so is weird. I've talked about the flavour, because it's something I like, and about timezones because it's something I'm generally conscious of as someone who's not on the American continent.

I haven't really begun posting my thoughts on how the game mechanics and real set-up stuff might go, because the stuff I've thought of doesn't really fit with a anything I'd see as a balanced game.

By "set up" stuff I was talking about flavor and time zones, along with the game set up. Honestly it's a closed game so there's not much actual set up stuff we can do

Actually for those that know flavor, would a flavor claim be good? Or not
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: jotheonah on January 13, 2019, 07:43:22 pm
vote: mail-mi

Mass claims on day one are always a bad idea.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Robz888 on January 13, 2019, 07:59:39 pm
Vote: Jotheonah

This felt like pouncing on mail-mi for something that might very well be wrong but was not especially likely to come from scum. (Town needs no help tricking itself into mass claiming.)
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: 2.71828..... on January 13, 2019, 08:19:25 pm
Vote: Jotheonah

This felt like pouncing on mail-mi for something that might very well be wrong but was not especially likely to come from scum. (Town needs no help tricking itself into mass claiming.)

I can sheep that vote.

Vote: jotheonah
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mail-mi on January 13, 2019, 08:21:07 pm
ah, a day 1 wagon on me. some things never change

vote: mail-mi

Mass claims on day one are always a bad idea.

You're probably right. I guess a better question would be, are there obvious flavor names that would be scum?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mail-mi on January 13, 2019, 08:21:21 pm
Also unvote
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: jotheonah on January 13, 2019, 08:24:10 pm
Vote: Jotheonah

This felt like pouncing on mail-mi for something that might very well be wrong but was not especially likely to come from scum. (Town needs no help tricking itself into mass claiming.)

When does scum ever actually do this? Scum doesn't need to pounce at this juncture. Scum just needs to wait for a good-looking town wagon and slide onboard.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: 2.71828..... on January 13, 2019, 08:25:08 pm
ah, a day 1 wagon on me. some things never change

vote: mail-mi

Mass claims on day one are always a bad idea.

You're probably right. I guess a better question would be, are there obvious flavor names that would be scum?

There are probably obvious scum flavors, but I doubt that the game would be designed in such a way that a mass claim would out scum on D1.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: jotheonah on January 13, 2019, 08:26:07 pm
I suspect scum has been given fake claims if their flavor would give them away.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mail-mi on January 13, 2019, 08:31:12 pm
ah, a day 1 wagon on me. some things never change

vote: mail-mi

Mass claims on day one are always a bad idea.

You're probably right. I guess a better question would be, are there obvious flavor names that would be scum?

There are probably obvious scum flavors, but I doubt that the game would be designed in such a way that a mass claim would out scum on D1.

You are also probably right. Worth a suggestion, at least.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: hypercube on January 13, 2019, 08:57:04 pm
Vote: Jotheonah

This felt like pouncing on mail-mi for something that might very well be wrong but was not especially likely to come from scum. (Town needs no help tricking itself into mass claiming.)

When does scum ever actually do this? Scum doesn't need to pounce at this juncture. Scum just needs to wait for a good-looking town wagon and slide onboard.

Well, scum wants to look like they're.scumhunting.

vote: joth
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mail-mi on January 13, 2019, 09:07:20 pm
Vote: Jotheonah

This felt like pouncing on mail-mi for something that might very well be wrong but was not especially likely to come from scum. (Town needs no help tricking itself into mass claiming.)

When does scum ever actually do this? Scum doesn't need to pounce at this juncture. Scum just needs to wait for a good-looking town wagon and slide onboard.

Well, scum wants to look like they're.scumhunting.

vote: joth

vote: hypercube

This is exactly the position scum wants to be on the wagon. Voting for someone who already has votes, and turning a couple votes into an actual wagon

I know that didn't make much sense, I'm having a hard time putting my thoughts into words. I hope you (meaning the general populus)understands what I'm trying to say
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: hypercube on January 13, 2019, 09:10:33 pm
Vote: Jotheonah

This felt like pouncing on mail-mi for something that might very well be wrong but was not especially likely to come from scum. (Town needs no help tricking itself into mass claiming.)

When does scum ever actually do this? Scum doesn't need to pounce at this juncture. Scum just needs to wait for a good-looking town wagon and slide onboard.

Well, scum wants to look like they're.scumhunting.

vote: joth

vote: hypercube

This is exactly the position scum wants to be on the wagon. Voting for someone who already has votes, and turning a couple votes into an actual wagon

I know that didn't make much sense, I'm having a hard time putting my thoughts into words. I hope you (meaning the general populus)understands what I'm trying to say

Wagons are good, I will proudly take my place as the person who turned a couple of votes into a wagon.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mail-mi on January 13, 2019, 09:11:31 pm
Vote: Jotheonah

This felt like pouncing on mail-mi for something that might very well be wrong but was not especially likely to come from scum. (Town needs no help tricking itself into mass claiming.)

When does scum ever actually do this? Scum doesn't need to pounce at this juncture. Scum just needs to wait for a good-looking town wagon and slide onboard.

Well, scum wants to look like they're.scumhunting.

vote: joth

vote: hypercube

This is exactly the position scum wants to be on the wagon. Voting for someone who already has votes, and turning a couple votes into an actual wagon

I know that didn't make much sense, I'm having a hard time putting my thoughts into words. I hope you (meaning the general populus)understands what I'm trying to say

Wagons are good, I will proudly take my place as the person who turned a couple of votes into a wagon.

good to know
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on January 13, 2019, 09:23:53 pm
@Hyper- Thanks for the reminder about the plurality things and the anti-town tie vote resolution. It does seem unusual and worth noting but itís buried in the start up text.

Yes, everyone is a she this game! Hooray!
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: DatSwan on January 13, 2019, 10:54:20 pm
1. SpaceAnemone - I've played with you before.
2. jotheonah - I've played with you before too.
3. LaLight - you're cool
4. DatSwan - no idea
5. mail-mi - is the best
6. Awaclus - I've played with you before
7. 2.71828..... - hi e, I'm in a math class right now
8. WestCoastDidds - no idea
9. Robz888 - is scum
10. hypercube - no idea
11. mcmcsalot - is Robz's brother, was new the same time I was new (Remember that first newbie game?)
12. ashersky - good old ash, good to see you again. What's your plan?
13. Galzria - I might have played with you? I think you modded the pirates game
14. Glooble - don't think I've ever played with you.

So, WestCoast, DatSwan, hypercube, and Glooble, what's your mafia playing experience?

Galz got me hooked almost 2 years back now i guess (maybe a year and a half). I think i have played about a dozen on fds.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mail-mi on January 13, 2019, 10:58:09 pm
So what is everyone's preferred pronoun?

Mine is he/him
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: DatSwan on January 13, 2019, 10:59:20 pm
I am he/ him and also editing my previous post - evidently more like 20 games on fds.... oh how time flies
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Awaclus on January 14, 2019, 01:30:08 am
So what is everyone's preferred pronoun?

Mine is he/him

I don't particularly have a preferred pronoun but I'm male so he/him is technically correct.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: LaLight on January 14, 2019, 01:48:47 am
So what is everyone's preferred pronoun?

Mine is he/him

I don't particularly have a preferred pronoun but I'm male so he/him is technically correct.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: LaLight on January 14, 2019, 03:21:16 am
Quote
If the deadline is hit without a player reaching the majority of votes, the player that would take the least number of additional votes to lynch dies. If there is a tie, a town player dies before a non-town player. Otherwise, who dies is determined randomly.

The wording "the player that would take the least number of additional votes to lynch dies" seems non-standard and suggests that there's going to be something strange going on with voting.

I've been thinking about that. I think hated/loved is in play considering the wording? Other than that it's pretty strange about town player duing before non-town one.

faust, will it be possible to differ the "town player before non-town dies" or if it is a coin flip? I mean if two people have the same amount of votes, will it be possible to recognize if the one who would be lynched is a town and the second is a non-town or if that was a coin flip?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: LaLight on January 14, 2019, 03:23:03 am
Addition to the previous question:if one of the player is Hated and is lynched because of that, will you point to that in some way?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: LaLight on January 14, 2019, 03:24:47 am
oh, and also vote: hypercube for reading the setup
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: faust on January 14, 2019, 03:37:25 am
Vote Count 1.1

Galzria (2): Glooble, Awaclus
Robz888 (1): Galzria
mail-mi (2): SpaceAnemone, jotheonah
jotheonah (3): Robz888, 2.71828....., hypercube
hypercube (2): mail-mi, LaLight

Not Voting (4): DatSwan, WestCoastDidds, mcmcsalot, ashersky

WIth 14 alive, it takes 8 to lynch. Day 1 ends on January 20, 2019, 04:00:00 am.

faust, will it be possible to differ the "town player before non-town dies" or if it is a coin flip? I mean if two people have the same amount of votes, will it be possible to recognize if the one who would be lynched is a town and the second is a non-town or if that was a coin flip?
No.

Addition to the previous question:if one of the player is Hated and is lynched because of that, will you point to that in some way?
No.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: LaLight on January 14, 2019, 04:33:33 am
ok then

should we just wagon two or more players that are the scummiest every day, so we will have a bit of extra info?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: LaLight on January 14, 2019, 04:34:29 am
screw that, it's a bad idea
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Glooble on January 14, 2019, 07:27:21 am
I donít love any of these new wagons that are forming, but my Galz vote was more or less completely random and now I have better options. Hypercube, Iím leaning towards changing my vote to you right now. Would you care to explain your vote for joth and your ďwagons are goodĒ comment? It seems to me that rushing a wagon at this point makes a lot more sense if youíre scum.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: hypercube on January 14, 2019, 07:41:30 am
I donít love any of these new wagons that are forming, but my Galz vote was more or less completely random and now I have better options. Hypercube, Iím leaning towards changing my vote to you right now. Would you care to explain your vote for joth and your ďwagons are goodĒ comment? It seems to me that rushing a wagon at this point makes a lot more sense if youíre scum.

I thought Robz's point about joth jumping on mail-mi for something that scum probably doesn't need to do (pushing a flavour claim) was reasonable, and I wanted to move off of my jokey vote on Space.

Wagons are good for several reasons: they lead to the player being wagoned defending themselves, which gives more information as to their alignment, they give us a record of people's opinions which will be useful once we have some flips, and they move the game along out of the fluffy early part.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: hypercube on January 14, 2019, 07:47:14 am
I use he/him pronouns but if you want to really get into the flavour and use feminine ones for me that's fine.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Glooble on January 14, 2019, 08:16:54 am
oh, and also vote: hypercube for reading the setup

What do you mean by this? Is this just an early random vote?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on January 14, 2019, 08:38:23 am

Happy Monday, friends! I hope itís a great week!

Lalight (or anyone), can you tell me what hates/loved means? Also, twinclaim? Thank you!
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mail-mi on January 14, 2019, 08:45:05 am

Happy Monday, friends! I hope itís a great week!

Lalight (or anyone), can you tell me what hates/loved means? Also, twinclaim? Thank you!

If someone is hated, they take 1 less vote to lynch. It's the opposite with someone who is loved

Twinclaim means that 2 or more people know each other in real life.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: LaLight on January 14, 2019, 08:45:47 am
oh, and also vote: hypercube for reading the setup

What do you mean by this? Is this just an early random vote?

In my experience scum is more inclined to read the setup thoroughly to not accidentally show they have more information than other people
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: jotheonah on January 14, 2019, 09:03:41 am
Vote: Jotheonah

This felt like pouncing on mail-mi for something that might very well be wrong but was not especially likely to come from scum. (Town needs no help tricking itself into mass claiming.)

When does scum ever actually do this? Scum doesn't need to pounce at this juncture. Scum just needs to wait for a good-looking town wagon and slide onboard.

Well, scum wants to look like they're.scumhunting.

vote: joth

vote: hypercube

This is exactly the position scum wants to be on the wagon. Voting for someone who already has votes, and turning a couple votes into an actual wagon

I know that didn't make much sense, I'm having a hard time putting my thoughts into words. I hope you (meaning the general populus)understands what I'm trying to say

What do people think of this post from mail-mi? Specifically, responding to a vote on himself by voting for the person who's voting for him?

To me it kind of reinforces my scumread, though I can't quite say why.

Like I actually don't think the point he's making is bad. But it's a really interesting way to respond to a vote on him and an immediate wagon on the person who voted for him.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: hypercube on January 14, 2019, 09:04:37 am
oh, and also vote: hypercube for reading the setup

What do you mean by this? Is this just an early random vote?

In my experience scum is more inclined to read the setup thoroughly to not accidentally show they have more information than other people

If I was scum I doubt I would have pointed that out. I'm well aware that I'm not going to be getting any town points for doing so.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: hypercube on January 14, 2019, 09:10:59 am
Vote: Jotheonah

This felt like pouncing on mail-mi for something that might very well be wrong but was not especially likely to come from scum. (Town needs no help tricking itself into mass claiming.)

When does scum ever actually do this? Scum doesn't need to pounce at this juncture. Scum just needs to wait for a good-looking town wagon and slide onboard.

Well, scum wants to look like they're.scumhunting.

vote: joth

vote: hypercube

This is exactly the position scum wants to be on the wagon. Voting for someone who already has votes, and turning a couple votes into an actual wagon

I know that didn't make much sense, I'm having a hard time putting my thoughts into words. I hope you (meaning the general populus)understands what I'm trying to say

What do people think of this post from mail-mi? Specifically, responding to a vote on himself by voting for the person who's voting for him?

To me it kind of reinforces my scumread, though I can't quite say why.

Like I actually don't think the point he's making is bad. But it's a really interesting way to respond to a vote on him and an immediate wagon on the person who voted for him.

I also thought it was a strange reaction; I'm not sure what to think of mail-mi at this point. Trying to discourage wagons from forming feels like it could just be anti-town town play.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Glooble on January 14, 2019, 09:25:58 am
Well this has been enlightening. I have to go do work away from my computer, I'll check in at lunch if I have time, in the meantime,

vote:mail-mi

Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: 2.71828..... on January 14, 2019, 09:29:30 am
Vote: hypercube

I like joth's reaction, let's change up a bit
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on January 14, 2019, 09:36:27 am
Vote: Jotheonah

This felt like pouncing on mail-mi for something that might very well be wrong but was not especially likely to come from scum. (Town needs no help tricking itself into mass claiming.)

When does scum ever actually do this? Scum doesn't need to pounce at this juncture. Scum just needs to wait for a good-looking town wagon and slide onboard.

Well, scum wants to look like they're.scumhunting.

vote: joth

vote: hypercube

This is exactly the position scum wants to be on the wagon. Voting for someone who already has votes, and turning a couple votes into an actual wagon

I know that didn't make much sense, I'm having a hard time putting my thoughts into words. I hope you (meaning the general populus)understands what I'm trying to say

What do people think of this post from mail-mi? Specifically, responding to a vote on himself by voting for the person who's voting for him?

To me it kind of reinforces my scumread, though I can't quite say why.

Like I actually don't think the point he's making is bad. But it's a really interesting way to respond to a vote on him and an immediate wagon on the person who voted for him.

I also thought it was a strange reaction; I'm not sure what to think of mail-mi at this point. Trying to discourage wagons from forming feels like it could just be anti-town town play.

Iím having a hard time following because we seem to be talking in a circle. Mail-mi seems to be saying that scum can take advantage of wagons. Well,obvi.

But Iím not sure wagons are anti-town because of all the reasons that they provide good info.

The votes coming out of this discussion seem a bit meh to me, though. More odd attempted articulations of some not terribly important points, it seems to me. Similarly, Iím not finding hyper scummy for reading the set up carefully. I think as a relative newb, I read carefully so that I can make sure I understand what is going on and since I am even more unaccustomed to closed games, that kind of thing feels important to me. so, what heís doing makes sense to me and reminding us all of the plurality seems pro-town.  Iíd find it way more suspicious if he was one of the more experienced players.

Speaking of, more experienced players....where you at?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mail-mi on January 14, 2019, 09:51:28 am
Vote: Jotheonah

This felt like pouncing on mail-mi for something that might very well be wrong but was not especially likely to come from scum. (Town needs no help tricking itself into mass claiming.)

When does scum ever actually do this? Scum doesn't need to pounce at this juncture. Scum just needs to wait for a good-looking town wagon and slide onboard.

Well, scum wants to look like they're.scumhunting.

vote: joth

vote: hypercube

This is exactly the position scum wants to be on the wagon. Voting for someone who already has votes, and turning a couple votes into an actual wagon

I know that didn't make much sense, I'm having a hard time putting my thoughts into words. I hope you (meaning the general populus)understands what I'm trying to say

What do people think of this post from mail-mi? Specifically, responding to a vote on himself by voting for the person who's voting for him?

To me it kind of reinforces my scumread, though I can't quite say why.

Like I actually don't think the point he's making is bad. But it's a really interesting way to respond to a vote on him and an immediate wagon on the person who voted for him.

I also thought it was a strange reaction; I'm not sure what to think of mail-mi at this point. Trying to discourage wagons from forming feels like it could just be anti-town town play.

I'm not necessarily discouraging wagons from forming (for example, I'm currently enjoying the wagon on you), I just think you decided to place yourself on a particularly scummy place on said wagon. Is my scum read on you particularly strong? No, but it's early day 1, so it's something to go on.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mail-mi on January 14, 2019, 09:53:04 am
Vote: Jotheonah

This felt like pouncing on mail-mi for something that might very well be wrong but was not especially likely to come from scum. (Town needs no help tricking itself into mass claiming.)

When does scum ever actually do this? Scum doesn't need to pounce at this juncture. Scum just needs to wait for a good-looking town wagon and slide onboard.

Well, scum wants to look like they're.scumhunting.

vote: joth

vote: hypercube

This is exactly the position scum wants to be on the wagon. Voting for someone who already has votes, and turning a couple votes into an actual wagon

I know that didn't make much sense, I'm having a hard time putting my thoughts into words. I hope you (meaning the general populus)understands what I'm trying to say

What do people think of this post from mail-mi? Specifically, responding to a vote on himself by voting for the person who's voting for him?

To me it kind of reinforces my scumread, though I can't quite say why.

Like I actually don't think the point he's making is bad. But it's a really interesting way to respond to a vote on him and an immediate wagon on the person who voted for him.

I also thought it was a strange reaction; I'm not sure what to think of mail-mi at this point. Trying to discourage wagons from forming feels like it could just be anti-town town play.

Iím having a hard time following because we seem to be talking in a circle. Mail-mi seems to be saying that scum can take advantage of wagons. Well,obvi.

But Iím not sure wagons are anti-town because of all the reasons that they provide good info.

The votes coming out of this discussion seem a bit meh to me, though. More odd attempted articulations of some not terribly important points, it seems to me. Similarly, Iím not finding hyper scummy for reading the set up carefully. I think as a relative newb, I read carefully so that I can make sure I understand what is going on and since I am even more unaccustomed to closed games, that kind of thing feels important to me. so, what heís doing makes sense to me and reminding us all of the plurality seems pro-town.  Iíd find it way more suspicious if he was one of the more experienced players.

Speaking of, more experienced players....where you at?

Yeah I always try to read the setup, especially in an RMM game (and especially especially in a Faust RMM game). So that's not a point for or against hypercube
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mail-mi on January 14, 2019, 09:53:23 am
Vote: hypercube
Why?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Robz888 on January 14, 2019, 01:48:47 pm
Vote: Jotheonah

This felt like pouncing on mail-mi for something that might very well be wrong but was not especially likely to come from scum. (Town needs no help tricking itself into mass claiming.)

When does scum ever actually do this? Scum doesn't need to pounce at this juncture. Scum just needs to wait for a good-looking town wagon and slide onboard.

Well, scum wants to look like they're.scumhunting.

vote: joth

vote: hypercube

This is exactly the position scum wants to be on the wagon. Voting for someone who already has votes, and turning a couple votes into an actual wagon

I know that didn't make much sense, I'm having a hard time putting my thoughts into words. I hope you (meaning the general populus)understands what I'm trying to say

What do people think of this post from mail-mi? Specifically, responding to a vote on himself by voting for the person who's voting for him?

To me it kind of reinforces my scumread, though I can't quite say why.

Like I actually don't think the point he's making is bad. But it's a really interesting way to respond to a vote on him and an immediate wagon on the person who voted for him.

I recall mail-mi as sort of a stream of consciousness voter.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mail-mi on January 14, 2019, 02:37:19 pm
^^what robz said. I say what I think
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: jotheonah on January 14, 2019, 02:54:59 pm
^^what robz said. I say what I think

I'm sure that, when you're town, you do. And I'm sure that, when you're scum, you pretend to. So we all have to ask ourselves, does mail-mi's stream of consciousness posting feel authentic and sincere?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mail-mi on January 14, 2019, 03:01:11 pm
^^what robz said. I say what I think

I'm sure that, when you're town, you do. And I'm sure that, when you're scum, you pretend to. So we all have to ask ourselves, does mail-mi's stream of consciousness posting feel authentic and sincere?
'Tis true, that is what you and the others should do. Also note that typically I like observing rather than commenting, which is a mold I've been trying to break out of for the 2 years I've been gone, but it's still there.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mail-mi on January 14, 2019, 03:02:23 pm
Looks like everyone has posted except ash, mcmc, and gala. Where y'all at?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mail-mi on January 14, 2019, 03:05:51 pm
Looks like everyone has posted except ash, mcmc, and gala. Where y'all at?
Galz, dang it autocorrupt
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on January 14, 2019, 03:08:30 pm
Looks like everyone has posted except ash, mcmc, and gala. Where y'all at?
Galz, dang it autocorrupt

But "Gala" is rather festive, don't you think?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mail-mi on January 14, 2019, 03:13:59 pm
Similarly, Iím not finding hyper scummy for reading the set up carefully. I think as a relative newb, I read carefully so that I can make sure I understand what is going on and since I am even more unaccustomed to closed games, that kind of thing feels important to me. so, what heís doing makes sense to me and reminding us all of the plurality seems pro-town.  Iíd find it way more suspicious if he was one of the more experienced players.

Reminding people about the setup is also something scum can easily do to get town points for reminding people about the set up. It's all just WIFOM, and I don't think in this case sways hypercube's scumminess either way.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Awaclus on January 14, 2019, 03:44:06 pm
Vote: hypercube
Why?

Is hypercube your scumbuddy?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mail-mi on January 14, 2019, 04:00:25 pm
Vote: hypercube
Why?

Is hypercube your scumbuddy?

Nope I'm just trying to create conversation. I know why I'm voting for him (the main reason is wagon placement as explained) but I'm wondering why e is voting for him
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Awaclus on January 14, 2019, 04:02:32 pm
Nope I'm just trying to create conversation. I know why I'm voting for him (the main reason is wagon placement as explained) but I'm wondering why e is voting for him

A better way to create conversation would be to explain why you aren't scum.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Glooble on January 14, 2019, 04:52:03 pm
Looks like everyone has posted except ash, mcmc, and gala. Where y'all at?


Galz posted some early on. I think I voted for her briefly.


Sidenote: I'm inclined to use she/her pronouns for everyone in light of the flavor but if you really don't want me to do that please let me know.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mail-mi on January 14, 2019, 06:17:51 pm
Nope I'm just trying to create conversation. I know why I'm voting for him (the main reason is wagon placement as explained) but I'm wondering why e is voting for him

A better way to create conversation would be to explain why you aren't scum.

ok

Actually, Vote: mail-mi

While it might sound like pronoun-omgus, I've just realised that I haven't been doing setup stuff at all, so characterizing me as having done so is weird. I've talked about the flavour, because it's something I like, and about timezones because it's something I'm generally conscious of as someone who's not on the American continent.

I haven't really begun posting my thoughts on how the game mechanics and real set-up stuff might go, because the stuff I've thought of doesn't really fit with a anything I'd see as a balanced game.

I explained this part, that when I was referencing SA doing "setup stuff," I was meaning that they were doing flavor talking and timezone talking and all that jazz. In a way, you could refer to what I was talking as "setup stuff" as "pregame stuff," like "okay, let's talk a little bit about flavor and then about timezones, and then we'll get into scumhunting and such."

note that I did townread SA for that, because that's something I think town!SA does.

vote: mail-mi

Mass claims on day one are always a bad idea.

it was only a suggestion, not something that I was planning on going through unless there was considerable consensus on the idea. There may be some town PR with a role that relies on flavor names, or something like that, that would benefit from a flavor claim. There may also be a scum role that does so. We don't know--that's why I asked.

What do people think of this post from mail-mi? Specifically, responding to a vote on himself by voting for the person who's voting for him?

To me it kind of reinforces my scumread, though I can't quite say why.

Like I actually don't think the point he's making is bad. But it's a really interesting way to respond to a vote on him and an immediate wagon on the person who voted for him.


i think it's an ok post by mail-mi


I also thought it was a strange reaction; I'm not sure what to think of mail-mi at this point. Trying to discourage wagons from forming feels like it could just be anti-town town play.

I'm not trying to discourage wagons (for example, I don't care if Joth gets more votes on him or not). I just felt that scum!hypercube saw the opportunity to slip onto a quickly forming wagon (on what in this case would be town!joth) without too much of a consequence. Well, now there's a consequence--there's a wagon on him now.

Well this has been enlightening. I have to go do work away from my computer, I'll check in at lunch if I have time, in the meantime,

vote:mail-mi


why?

Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mail-mi on January 14, 2019, 06:18:32 pm
tl;dr mail-mi is not scum.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mail-mi on January 14, 2019, 06:19:09 pm
Nope I'm just trying to create conversation. I know why I'm voting for him (the main reason is wagon placement as explained) but I'm wondering why e is voting for him

A better way to create conversation would be to explain why you aren't scum.

ok now it's your turn
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Awaclus on January 14, 2019, 06:19:55 pm
tl;dr mail-mi is not scum.

You only quoted other people. Other people's posts aren't evidence why you aren't scum.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Awaclus on January 14, 2019, 06:21:56 pm
Nope I'm just trying to create conversation. I know why I'm voting for him (the main reason is wagon placement as explained) but I'm wondering why e is voting for him

A better way to create conversation would be to explain why you aren't scum.

ok now it's your turn

It's still pretty early in the game and so the only really noteworthy things I have done was voting Galz and asking you to explain why you're town, both of which are pro-town things to do.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mail-mi on January 14, 2019, 06:25:07 pm
tl;dr mail-mi is not scum.

You only quoted other people. Other people's posts aren't evidence why you aren't scum.

False, I responded to the accusations others were making against me.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on January 14, 2019, 06:25:58 pm
it's even in my sig line to help people remember.

To be fair, the way you have it in your sig mostly just makes it look like you modded the Pronouns: they/them mafia.

Ah, well there's my theme for next time I want to run a game :-)
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Awaclus on January 14, 2019, 06:33:48 pm
False, I responded to the accusations others were making against me.

Which is useless because it doesn't do anything to prove that you aren't scum for reasons that nobody has accused you for.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mail-mi on January 14, 2019, 06:35:22 pm
False, I responded to the accusations others were making against me.

Which is useless because it doesn't do anything to prove that you aren't scum for reasons that nobody has accused you for.

well here's something. I've been adding to the conversation and creating some, when scum!me would be content with maintaining the meta of "oh he's just a lurker, we'll figure out if he's scum sooner or later".

better?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Awaclus on January 14, 2019, 06:37:43 pm
False, I responded to the accusations others were making against me.

Which is useless because it doesn't do anything to prove that you aren't scum for reasons that nobody has accused you for.

well here's something. I've been adding to the conversation and creating some, when scum!me would be content with maintaining the meta of "oh he's just a lurker, we'll figure out if he's scum sooner or later".

better?

Yeah, at least that's something.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on January 14, 2019, 06:40:38 pm
Busy day.. read a little from work but I try not to post from there except at lunch. Maybe I should collect up reactions to stuff in one tidy post now rather than spamming the thread with possible fluff.

Re the Mail-mi conversation, I see a big difference between useful logistics (like working out who knows the flavour and preempting and last-minute complaints about deadline timings) and actual set-up stuff. My usual "thing" is to get very into probabilities and analysis of configurations, which I just can't do here. Am I just being too particular about my definition?

I agree that massclaims aren't going to get us far on D1. I probably like D3 for that sort of thing, or maybe D4 depending on what info we get about how this game works from the flips. Not sure it's worth joth jumping on Mail-mi for the comment, though we have to find reasons to vote somewhere. Robz and e's reaction-votes seem totally fair.

On the actual topic of flavour that Mail-mi was trying to steer towards, I think it's highly likely that faust has made the game unbreakable for flavour claims. I'm sure there was a discussion somewhere around here quite recently about how to assign flavour names. Was it during the Dirk Gently game? I'd have to go and look, but other people almost certainly have better memories than me.

I agree with hyper's stance on wagons being good. They're excellent for PPE later in the game if townie people don't always sit in one spot the whole time, because there are certain patterns of votes that scums just don't feel comfortable with, and there's always the risk that bussing scums trying not to be obvious about who their partners are end up taking it too far. Recently, late-game me has gotten frustrated with early-game me for not making enough use of votes in D1 to help me later on with my analysis. I do often find D1 just really hard to get my teeth into, though, so don't expect me to do too well at this one all at once :-P
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Robz888 on January 14, 2019, 06:42:23 pm
I think continuing to focus on mail-mi so much--something Joth is doing--is somewhat scummy. I've often seen mail-mi make himself into an easy target in games past, perhaps especially when town.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on January 14, 2019, 06:43:20 pm
oh, and also vote: hypercube for reading the setup

What do you mean by this? Is this just an early random vote?

In my experience scum is more inclined to read the setup thoroughly to not accidentally show they have more information than other people

Is that really the case? I think certain people as scum are more likely to have a grasp of the complexities of a setup because while they're not players who might usually pore over the setup text thinking about interactions, if they have scumbuddies then they might pick things up in the scum QT that they wouldn't be expected to come up with alone. While I don't know hyper that well, I'm not sure I'd put him into the group of people who I wouldn't expect to read and think about it on their own. (My prototypical person I'm thinking of for that group is PPS!).
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Robz888 on January 14, 2019, 06:44:13 pm
Mafia often have a better grasp of the setup because they have more data points: two or three or four or whatever people with powers.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Robz888 on January 14, 2019, 06:44:27 pm
Apropos of nothing, mcmc has yet to post. Get in here, mcmc!
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mail-mi on January 14, 2019, 07:09:49 pm
Re the Mail-mi conversation, I see a big difference between useful logistics (like working out who knows the flavour and preempting and last-minute complaints about deadline timings) and actual set-up stuff. My usual "thing" is to get very into probabilities and analysis of configurations, which I just can't do here. Am I just being too particular about my definition?
eh, I think we can just agree to disagree, though I must thank you for saying the word "logistics" as that is the word i've been looking for this whole conversation.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on January 14, 2019, 09:13:07 pm
it's even in my sig line to help people remember.

To be fair, the way you have it in your sig mostly just makes it look like you modded the Pronouns: they/them mafia.

Ah, well there's my theme for next time I want to run a game :-)

Ohhhh.....With all kinds of cool gender politics! Iím in!

Mail-miís robust engagement with Awa is looking awfully town to me.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: jotheonah on January 14, 2019, 09:28:42 pm
I think continuing to focus on mail-mi so much--something Joth is doing--is somewhat scummy. I've often seen mail-mi make himself into an easy target in games past, perhaps especially when town.

I agree.

vote:Robz
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Glooble on January 14, 2019, 09:33:10 pm
Mail-miís defense did swap her over to a town read for me. But I donít have a wagon I like better so I guess just unvote for now.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Awaclus on January 14, 2019, 09:40:25 pm
I think continuing to focus on mail-mi so much--something Joth is doing--is somewhat scummy. I've often seen mail-mi make himself into an easy target in games past, perhaps especially when town.

I agree.

vote:Robz

That vote doesn't count. In order for a vote to count, you have to do it with a space, like this: Vote: Robz
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: jotheonah on January 14, 2019, 09:44:54 pm
vote: robz

Also I should clarify, when I said ďI agreeĒ I meant I agree that mail-mi is seeming townie. Not that I was being scummy! I of course was and am being extremely pro-town.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mail-mi on January 14, 2019, 10:10:09 pm
What's up with the Robz votes?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Awaclus on January 14, 2019, 11:50:04 pm
What's up with the Robz votes?

What isn't up with the Robz votes?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mail-mi on January 15, 2019, 12:45:48 am
What's up with the Robz votes?

What isn't up with the Robz votes?

*sigh*
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: DatSwan on January 15, 2019, 01:06:51 am
Nope I'm just trying to create conversation. I know why I'm voting for him (the main reason is wagon placement as explained) but I'm wondering why e is voting for him

A better way to create conversation would be to explain why you aren't scum.

ok now it's your turn

It's still pretty early in the game and so the only really noteworthy things I have done was voting Galz and asking you to explain why you're town, both of which are pro-town things to do.

How do you know it is pro town to vote Galz?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: DatSwan on January 15, 2019, 01:14:52 am
Nope I'm just trying to create conversation. I know why I'm voting for him (the main reason is wagon placement as explained) but I'm wondering why e is voting for him

A better way to create conversation would be to explain why you aren't scum.

How is that possible at this point?

I wanna make it clear I am NOT white knighting Mal, but scrutinizing Awaclus.

It is Day 1, there is literally no information than the information that you know about yourself.
There haven't been any flips, claims, or even moderately large wagons.

How is one supposed to prove their town-i-ness at this point? What exactly are you expecting of them?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: DatSwan on January 15, 2019, 01:20:41 am
someone mentioned earlier in the game that "skum just wants to make it look like they are skum hunting for credit".

asking questions like these pretty much meet that criteria imo

Vote: Awaclus
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Awaclus on January 15, 2019, 01:54:42 am
How do you know it is pro town to vote Galz?

There was a small wagon on Galz and I made it one vote larger. That's always pro town. Are you implying that I scumslipped that Galz is my scumbuddy?

How is that possible at this point?

Are you even reading the thread? There have been two examples of this already, by mail-mi and me, respectively.

I wanna make it clear I am NOT white knighting Mal, but scrutinizing Awaclus.

It is Day 1, there is literally no information than the information that you know about yourself.
There haven't been any flips, claims, or even moderately large wagons.

How is one supposed to prove their town-i-ness at this point?

Well, I suppose it would be difficult to do unless you are actually town. Vote: DatSwan

someone mentioned earlier in the game that "skum just wants to make it look like they are skum hunting for credit".

asking questions like these pretty much meet that criteria imo

No it doesn't, this is significantly more useful than what you are doing.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: ashersky on January 15, 2019, 02:29:37 am
Apologies all, for the not posting until now thing.  Crazy busy + sort of forgot about the game.

Caught up, not a lot of content for 8 pages of posts.  Had the same scumread on mail-mi that everyone else had. Awaclus is reading as very Awaclusian. Robz is his normal D1 snore.

I do have a plan. Itís a secret, youíll know it when I unveil it, donít end D1 without letting me.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Awaclus on January 15, 2019, 02:35:58 am
I'm always up for an ashersky plan.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: DatSwan on January 15, 2019, 04:56:03 am
How do you know it is pro town to vote Galz?

There was a small wagon on Galz and I made it one vote larger. That's always pro town. Are you implying that I scumslipped that Galz is my scumbuddy?

How is that possible at this point?

Are you even reading the thread? There have been two examples of this already, by mail-mi and me, respectively.

I wanna make it clear I am NOT white knighting Mal, but scrutinizing Awaclus.

It is Day 1, there is literally no information than the information that you know about yourself.
There haven't been any flips, claims, or even moderately large wagons.

How is one supposed to prove their town-i-ness at this point?

Well, I suppose it would be difficult to do unless you are actually town. Vote: DatSwan

someone mentioned earlier in the game that "skum just wants to make it look like they are skum hunting for credit".

asking questions like these pretty much meet that criteria imo

No it doesn't, this is significantly more useful than what you are doing.

1) im implying that making a wagon one vote larger is not neccisarilly always pro town (especially if your meta as skum is to love the bus).

2) Reading just fine. I also do NOT think  that you, malmi, or anyone has done anything to come off as towny this far.

3) You didnít answer my question - instead you avoided it with a random omg is Vote. Another pro town thing tho Iím sure...

4) the last time i had this conversation with you you self hammered yourself for the town loss... so Iím just gonna drop this topic.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: LaLight on January 15, 2019, 05:32:23 am
vote: joth
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Awaclus on January 15, 2019, 06:12:52 am
1) im implying that making a wagon one vote larger is not neccisarilly always pro town (especially if your meta as skum is to love the bus).

2) Reading just fine. I also do NOT think  that you, malmi, or anyone has done anything to come off as towny this far.

3) You didnít answer my question - instead you avoided it with a random omg is Vote. Another pro town thing tho Iím sure...

4) the last time i had this conversation with you you self hammered yourself for the town loss... so Iím just gonna drop this topic.

1) Making a wagon one vote larger is necessarily always pro town, unless the vote leads to a town lynch.

2) It doesn't matter what you think, it matters what mail-mi thinks about himself and what I think about myself.

3) I didn't answer your question because that was the second time you asked the exact same question and I already answered it in item 2.

4) That self-hammer was way better than having town give away valuable information before ultimately lynching me anyway.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: DatSwan on January 15, 2019, 07:23:29 am
1) im implying that making a wagon one vote larger is not neccisarilly always pro town (especially if your meta as skum is to love the bus).

2) Reading just fine. I also do NOT think  that you, malmi, or anyone has done anything to come off as towny this far.

3) You didnít answer my question - instead you avoided it with a random omg is Vote. Another pro town thing tho Iím sure...

4) the last time i had this conversation with you you self hammered yourself for the town loss... so Iím just gonna drop this topic.

1) Making a wagon one vote larger is necessarily always pro town, unless the vote leads to a town lynch.

2) It doesn't matter what you think, it matters what mail-mi thinks about himself and what I think about myself.

3) I didn't answer your question because that was the second time you asked the exact same question and I already answered it in item 2.

4) That self-hammer was way better than having town give away valuable information before ultimately lynching me anyway.

1) how do you know that wagon was not going to lead to a town lynch?

2) incorrect

3) fair enough

4) agree to to disagree.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Awaclus on January 15, 2019, 07:26:24 am
1) how do you know that wagon was not going to lead to a town lynch?

2) incorrect

1) Because we're not even close to the deadline yet.
2) No, it's correct.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: hypercube on January 15, 2019, 08:39:54 am
2) It doesn't matter what you think, it matters what mail-mi thinks about himself and what I think about myself.

I like this line of thought. Especially in light of this:

Also I should clarify, when I said ďI agreeĒ I meant I agree that mail-mi is seeming townie. Not that I was being scummy! I of course was and am being extremely pro-town.

You can claim to be extremely town (well, you're either town or you aren't, so the extreme value there is pretty simple to determine), but calling yourself extremely pro-town at this point rings like a bad joke.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mail-mi on January 15, 2019, 08:56:51 am
2) It doesn't matter what you think, it matters what mail-mi thinks about himself and what I think about myself.

I like this line of thought. Especially in light of this:

Also I should clarify, when I said ďI agreeĒ I meant I agree that mail-mi is seeming townie. Not that I was being scummy! I of course was and am being extremely pro-town.

You can claim to be extremely town (well, you're either town or you aren't, so the extreme value there is pretty simple to determine), but calling yourself extremely pro-town at this point rings like a bad joke.

I agree with what hypercube says about Joth here. That post doesn't ring right

Also unvote hypercube is seeming townier to me. What vote count is Joth at?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: jotheonah on January 15, 2019, 08:57:03 am
Nah, it was a good joke. Iím also very funny.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mail-mi on January 15, 2019, 09:06:39 am
Also I'm extremely busy today (rl day) so don't expect much from me
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: faust on January 15, 2019, 11:07:15 am
Vote Count 1.2

Robz888 (2): Galzria, jotheonah
mail-mi (1): SpaceAnemone
jotheonah (3): Robz888, hypercube, LaLight
hypercube (1): 2.71828.....
Awaclus (1): DatSwan
DatSwan (1): Awaclus

Not Voting (4): WestCoastDidds, mcmcsalot, ashersky, Glooble, mail-mi

With 14 alive, it takes 8 to lynch. Day 1 ends on January 20, 2019, 04:00:00 am.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mail-mi on January 15, 2019, 11:59:50 am
vote: joth
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Robz888 on January 15, 2019, 12:02:08 pm
Apologies all, for the not posting until now thing.  Crazy busy + sort of forgot about the game.

Caught up, not a lot of content for 8 pages of posts.  Had the same scumread on mail-mi that everyone else had. Awaclus is reading as very Awaclusian. Robz is his normal D1 snore.

I do have a plan. Itís a secret, youíll know it when I unveil it, donít end D1 without letting me.

My usual Day 1 snore?? Not fair, I'm really trying to impress with my new "Robz is good as town" lifestyle. I provided a few genuine reads that moved the game forward a bit, and everything! Rage Vote: Ashersky
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Glooble on January 15, 2019, 12:28:15 pm
At the risk of sounding scummy given that she is my sister irl, I don't get the wagon on joth right now. He's being sarcastic and flippant, but that's just his style. All of his observations seem genuine to me.

Day one is hard, there's so little concrete to go on. I'm eager to hear ashersky's secret plan to fight inflation (have we done West Wing Mafia yet? that could be fun.)

Anyway, this little fight between DatSwan and Awaclus doesn't look great for either of them, but DatSwan comes out of it looking a little more jumpy and defensive, which is often how I feel early on as scum, so for now, vote: DatSwan
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: 2.71828..... on January 15, 2019, 12:39:18 pm
The Datswan/Awaclus thing is totally null as far as town/scum reads for either of them.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: 2.71828..... on January 15, 2019, 12:44:38 pm
Hypercube is a much better D1 lynch here. Because amazing D1 case is why. That I can detail later. Like after dinner.

(Also just moved to Germany so I am now forum time+6)
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Glooble on January 15, 2019, 12:45:18 pm
I look forward to hearing your case after dinner. Because I admit I am grasping at straws right now.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: hypercube on January 15, 2019, 12:55:32 pm
The Datswan/Awaclus thing is totally null as far as town/scum reads for either of them.

It feels a bit manufactured I think. I am certain that Awaclus would go around asking people to argue why they're town regardless of his alignment. Maybe he would select who he asks that question to differently, but that's a different matter. Swan doesn't agree that this is productive, and uses that as an excuse to scumread Awaclus and start a big argument that I assume most people aren't paying too much attention to. I'm not sure that it means something, but I'm not sure that it means nothing either.

I am also interested in hearing this amazing case on me.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: jotheonah on January 15, 2019, 12:59:09 pm
unvote

Voting for Robz was kind of silly.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mail-mi on January 15, 2019, 01:01:07 pm
Hypercube is a much better D1 lynch here. Because amazing D1 case is why. That I can detail later. Like after dinner.

(Also just moved to Germany so I am now forum time+6)
Looking forward to it
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mcmcsalot on January 15, 2019, 02:09:00 pm
Will catch up by tonight sorry for my absence so far.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on January 15, 2019, 05:20:04 pm
The thing that strikes me about play so far is that there are so many unvotes. I feel like that's not normal. Why not just move your vote around if you decide you no longer like who you're voting for?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on January 15, 2019, 05:21:13 pm
At the risk of sounding scummy given that she is my sister irl, I don't get the wagon on joth right now. He's being sarcastic and flippant, but that's just his style. All of his observations seem genuine to me.

Her pronouns appear to be very fluid here :-P
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on January 15, 2019, 05:23:46 pm
I'm always up for an ashersky plan.

Does that mean you feel they're always pro-town? I feel like some of the ones I've observed have been of pretty questionable town utility.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on January 15, 2019, 05:26:26 pm
(Also just moved to Germany so I am now forum time+6)

Moved as in long-term? We should have another f.ds Mafia meet-up in Berlin!
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Galzria on January 15, 2019, 05:39:51 pm
About 50ish posts behind. Gotta get some work squared away, but should be caught up by tonight.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on January 15, 2019, 05:56:47 pm
Hi friends-

Apologies for the absence, first day of classes and all. I'm caught up now, and continue to be rather flummoxed. The Awa/Swan conversation is funny to me, but rather null in terms of alignment. The Joth wagon doesn't seem to be based on much, but maybe that's enough... I have zero firm sense of anything, but we're only about midway through the day so maybe that's okay.

Other than the folks who have been absent thus far, the least explanation of thinking seems to be e. So, we will all wait for after dinner and for folks to get caught up, or maybe for a Ashersky plan, or some more to think about than our current conversations, because like Glooble I feel like there is nothing real going on here that's illuminating.  Maybe we need new and improved Day 1 Robz to new and improve this day!

Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Awaclus on January 15, 2019, 06:05:45 pm
Does that mean you feel they're always pro-town? I feel like some of the ones I've observed have been of pretty questionable town utility.

Well, I don't think they're always pro-town, but they're pro-town pretty often especially because ashersky tries to make them that way even when he's scum.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Glooble on January 15, 2019, 06:10:35 pm
The thing that strikes me about play so far is that there are so many unvotes. I feel like that's not normal. Why not just move your vote around if you decide you no longer like who you're voting for?

I vote for people if they seem scummy, and then if they seem less scummy but thereís no one else who seems especially scummy I just unvote. Thatís mostly only true on Day 1 though.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: DatSwan on January 15, 2019, 10:06:31 pm
At the risk of sounding scummy given that she is my sister irl, I don't get the wagon on joth right now. He's being sarcastic and flippant, but that's just his style. All of his observations seem genuine to me.

Day one is hard, there's so little concrete to go on. I'm eager to hear ashersky's secret plan to fight inflation (have we done West Wing Mafia yet? that could be fun.)

Anyway, this little fight between DatSwan and Awaclus doesn't look great for either of them, but DatSwan comes out of it looking a little more jumpy and defensive, which is often how I feel early on as scum, so for now, vote: DatSwan

I was the one pointing fingers in this - how does that come off as defensicve?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: jotheonah on January 15, 2019, 10:09:06 pm
The thing that strikes me about play so far is that there are so many unvotes. I feel like that's not normal.

I voted for Robz because I really didn't like his vote on me, honestly. Not like in an OMGUS way, but in a "there's no way Robz actually believes that scum!me would vote mail-mi the way I did, he knows me too well." But then I reread and thought about and I realized it was kind of silly. Because I've been away so long. And Robz is striking me as generally towny here. So I unvoted.

Why not just move your vote around if you decide you no longer like who you're voting for?

...Because I don't have any scumreads?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: DatSwan on January 16, 2019, 12:57:15 am
I am going the crew of just re read again and really struggling to find jumping off points...

Love to hear the E! case or the Ashes plan plzzz
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: 2.71828..... on January 16, 2019, 03:07:29 am
The hypercube case:

1) he had the whole "I read the setup and noticed a hated/loved mechanic of some sort likely exists" post

2) then has the "if I were scum I wouldn't have pointed it out" post

3) the other wagons are all bad

And there you have it. Best of the best for D1 cases
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: hypercube on January 16, 2019, 05:03:31 am
The hypercube case:

1) he had the whole "I read the setup and noticed a hated/loved mechanic of some sort likely exists" post

2) then has the "if I were scum I wouldn't have pointed it out" post

3) the other wagons are all bad

And there you have it. Best of the best for D1 cases

Aw, I was hoping you had something creative. Town points for not overreaching, I guess.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on January 16, 2019, 05:27:54 am
So, we will all wait for after dinner and for folks to get caught up, or maybe for a Ashersky plan

So.. is it pro-town just to wait for Ash's plan? Are you even aware of the kinds of things these Ashersky-plans of his tend to involve?

Characteristic one: he announces to the thread that he has a plan, but then waits ages to post it, building expectation. In games like this, it has a very real risk of stalling all the genuine worthwhile conversation in the thread because too many people buy into the cult of the Ashersky plan and don't want to put their own effort in when they hope someone else is going to come along and do it for them.

I think it's not very pro-town of him to do the hint-and-run routine in the first place, but it's certainly not pro-town for the rest of us to let multiple comments along the lines of "let's wait for Ashersky's plan" go by and not have at least a little rant about it ;-)

(I was going to go into more characteristics of the plans, but I'm at work, and now my breakfast-coffee is over, I need to get back to analysis of real data!)
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: 2.71828..... on January 16, 2019, 05:31:38 am
Ashersky explicitly stated he wouldn't reveal his plan until very late D1.

1) there is absolutely no reason to wait for a plan
2) people who state they are waiting for said plan are attempting to be artificially townie, and thus are scummy
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: 2.71828..... on January 16, 2019, 05:33:14 am
re you even aware of the kinds of things these Ashersky-plans of his tend to involve?

They tend to involve scum losing, even if he himself is scum. (See villager mafia)
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: hypercube on January 16, 2019, 05:37:16 am
2) people who state they are waiting for said plan are attempting to be artificially townie, and thus are scummy

I can buy into this. vote: Glooble
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Glooble on January 16, 2019, 06:36:04 am
2) people who state they are waiting for said plan are attempting to be artificially townie, and thus are scummy

I can buy into this. vote: Glooble

All I said was ďIím eager to hear this planĒ. Nothing about waiting for it. I then proceeded to make an unrelated vote in the same post.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: 2.71828..... on January 16, 2019, 06:37:54 am
(Also just moved to Germany so I am now forum time+6)

Moved as in long-term? We should have another f.ds Mafia meet-up in Berlin!

Moved as in for the next 3 years. So somewhat long term
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: 2.71828..... on January 16, 2019, 06:41:55 am
2) people who state they are waiting for said plan are attempting to be artificially townie, and thus are scummy

I can buy into this. vote: Glooble

All I said was ďIím eager to hear this planĒ. Nothing about waiting for it. I then proceeded to make an unrelated vote in the same post.

Yeah, add hypercube's non sequitur vote on Glooble to the reasons they are scum
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Glooble on January 16, 2019, 06:47:02 am
Ashersky explicitly stated he wouldn't reveal his plan until very late D1.

1) there is absolutely no reason to wait for a plan
2) people who state they are waiting for said plan are attempting to be artificially townie, and thus are scummy

Agreed.

vote:ashersky
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Glooble on January 16, 2019, 06:47:52 am
Err, forgot the space. vote: ashersky
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: hypercube on January 16, 2019, 06:48:30 am
2) people who state they are waiting for said plan are attempting to be artificially townie, and thus are scummy

I can buy into this. vote: Glooble

All I said was ďIím eager to hear this planĒ. Nothing about waiting for it. I then proceeded to make an unrelated vote in the same post.

You didn't seem very convinced in your Swan vote, surrounding it with equivocation about how there's too little to go on etc.. I don't think scum would actually just sit there and refuse to do anything until Ash comes up with a plan. I've been scumreading Glooble for a little while now; she seems to be playing a very conservative game, being around without actually moving things along too much.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: LaLight on January 16, 2019, 06:54:58 am
I like vote: Glooble
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on January 16, 2019, 07:33:16 am
So, we will all wait for after dinner and for folks to get caught up, or maybe for a Ashersky plan

So.. is it pro-town just to wait for Ash's plan? Are you even aware of the kinds of things these Ashersky-plans of his tend to involve?

Characteristic one: he announces to the thread that he has a plan, but then waits ages to post it, building expectation. In games like this, it has a very real risk of stalling all the genuine worthwhile conversation in the thread because too many people buy into the cult of the Ashersky plan and don't want to put their own effort in when they hope someone else is going to come along and do it for them.

I think it's not very pro-town of him to do the hint-and-run routine in the first place, but it's certainly not pro-town for the rest of us to let multiple comments along the lines of "let's wait for Ashersky's plan" go by and not have at least a little rant about it ;-)

(I was going to go into more characteristics of the plans, but I'm at work, and now my breakfast-coffee is over, I need to get back to analysis of real data!)

Ah, thanks for the background. I wasn't arguing that we wait for the plan...especially since I can't see how there is any utility in a "plan" at this point with all the unknowns and so few knowns. I was really more trying to summarize the line of comments in the thread that were about catching up, checking in, reading, and getting back to it after dinner-- which I found amusing because it reminded me of being a kid and getting to play outside until the streetlights came on.

I appreciate that mail-mi, hyper, and glooble are so active. Of them, vote: glooble seems the most productive current course of action.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Glooble on January 16, 2019, 07:38:30 am
This wagon is me pretty obviously being pushed by hypercube to derail the wagon on her.

vote: hypercube

I was already leaning that direction anyway and now itís looking like classic misdirection.

Still suspicious of ashersky though.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: hypercube on January 16, 2019, 07:49:17 am
This wagon is me pretty obviously being pushed by hypercube to derail the wagon on her.

vote: hypercube

I was already leaning that direction anyway and now itís looking like classic misdirection.

Still suspicious of ashersky though.

At the time I voted for you, E was the only person voting for me; there's nothing to derail there. It seems like you might be a bit afraid of people voting for you though!
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: LaLight on January 16, 2019, 07:52:52 am
This wagon is me pretty obviously being pushed by hypercube to derail the wagon on her.

vote: hypercube

I was already leaning that direction anyway and now itís looking like classic misdirection.

Still suspicious of ashersky though.

How are you suspicious of ashersky? Why?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: jotheonah on January 16, 2019, 08:25:33 am
Ashersky explicitly stated he wouldn't reveal his plan until very late D1.

1) there is absolutely no reason to wait for a plan
2) people who state they are waiting for said plan are attempting to be artificially townie, and thus are scummy

Agreed.

vote:ashersky

Please explain this post.

Cards on the table: Personally, I would rather not D1 lynch you after talking you into playing so we could have enough players to launch the game. But, in-game, I am finding you quite scummy.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Glooble on January 16, 2019, 08:26:16 am
Because of eís point. Saying you have a plan but you wonít reveal it u til the end of the day seems like a good way to slow down scumhunting.

I am afraid of people voting for me for very pro-town reasons which will become clear if the wagon on me reaches that point.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: 2.71828..... on January 16, 2019, 08:26:29 am
This wagon is me pretty obviously being pushed by hypercube to derail the wagon on her.

vote: hypercube

I was already leaning that direction anyway and now itís looking like classic misdirection.

Still suspicious of ashersky though.

How are you suspicious of ashersky? Why?

Ashersky is an easy person to be suspicious of. He posts about this Grand Scheme and then not much else. Seems fairly suspicious if you aren't accustomed to ashersky play style.

Town points for Glooble
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: jotheonah on January 16, 2019, 08:34:16 am
I am afraid of people voting for me for very pro-town reasons which will become clear if the wagon on me reaches that point.

There's some lexical ambiguity here. Are you saying you are afraid for reasons which will become clear or people are voting for you for reasons that will become clear?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Glooble on January 16, 2019, 08:34:50 am
The former.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: ashersky on January 16, 2019, 08:37:07 am
Ashersky explicitly stated he wouldn't reveal his plan until very late D1.

1) there is absolutely no reason to wait for a plan
2) people who state they are waiting for said plan are attempting to be artificially townie, and thus are scummy

This is correct. 2.7ís post before this one was scummy, but this is normal 2.7.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: ashersky on January 16, 2019, 08:39:27 am
I am afraid of people voting for me for very pro-town reasons which will become clear if the wagon on me reaches that point.

There's some lexical ambiguity here. Are you saying you are afraid for reasons which will become clear or people are voting for you for reasons that will become clear?

Itís also a very nothing statement, especially in RMM. I mean, voting for a town PR is bad, so we can all say the same thing. Seems like an empty chaff discharge to me.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: ashersky on January 16, 2019, 08:42:43 am
The hypercube case:

1) he had the whole "I read the setup and noticed a hated/loved mechanic of some sort likely exists" post

2) then has the "if I were scum I wouldn't have pointed it out" post

3) the other wagons are all bad

And there you have it. Best of the best for D1 cases

I didnít like something here. Not sure what.

Contents-wise, point 2 could be a thing. Depends on how noobish said player is, if scum discussed N0, and if scum has a player that is affected.  Especially with the last possibility, pointing it out via voting rule gets you town points plus protects scum who would be affected.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: jotheonah on January 16, 2019, 08:45:27 am
I am afraid of people voting for me for very pro-town reasons which will become clear if the wagon on me reaches that point.

There's some lexical ambiguity here. Are you saying you are afraid for reasons which will become clear or people are voting for you for reasons that will become clear?

Itís also a very nothing statement, especially in RMM. I mean, voting for a town PR is bad, so we can all say the same thing. Seems like an empty chaff discharge to me.

On that topic, we should talk about claims. I'm not sure it makes sense to autoclaim at R1 when everyone has a power role. I think maybe you should only claim if you think your role is exceptionally powerful? But it's also not really clear to me that the power level of roles is even knowable without more context. I certainly have no idea if mine is powerful or not.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: ashersky on January 16, 2019, 08:47:52 am
Also, for the record, hating on ashersky plans is just a hipster contrarianism thing to do. As Awaclus points out subconsciously, the efficacy of ashersky plans notwithstanding, the airing of, discussion of, and sometimes demolishing of ashersky plans is always pro-town. And generally they are pro-town regardless of my own alignment.

If you want to complain about ashersky plans, the correct way is to say it has zero bearing on my alignment so I deserve no town points for them. Unfortunately, I often do get scum points if I donít have one, so partly this is all your fault.

Separate to this, using waiting for the plan as an excuse to not otherwise engage is not an acceptable action.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: ashersky on January 16, 2019, 08:49:23 am
I am afraid of people voting for me for very pro-town reasons which will become clear if the wagon on me reaches that point.

There's some lexical ambiguity here. Are you saying you are afraid for reasons which will become clear or people are voting for you for reasons that will become clear?

Itís also a very nothing statement, especially in RMM. I mean, voting for a town PR is bad, so we can all say the same thing. Seems like an empty chaff discharge to me.

On that topic, we should talk about claims. I'm not sure it makes sense to autoclaim at R1 when everyone has a power role. I think maybe you should only claim if you think your role is exceptionally powerful? But it's also not really clear to me that the power level of roles is even knowable without more context. I certainly have no idea if mine is powerful or not.

Stock answer: Leave it up to individual players.

Better answer: generally the choice between being lynched and outing your power is an easy one to make.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Glooble on January 16, 2019, 08:52:23 am
Ashersky: can you tell us why you can't reveal your plan until late day one without revealing your plan?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Glooble on January 16, 2019, 08:53:38 am
I wasn't really aware of the meta re:ashersky plans, having been out of the loop for several years. In a vacuum, teasing a plan seemed scummy. I see now that I was missing important context.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mail-mi on January 16, 2019, 09:03:04 am
I like e's hypercube case, definitely willing to go back to her if that's what ends up happening. Still like my joth vote rn
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: hypercube on January 16, 2019, 09:38:45 am
The hypercube case:

1) he had the whole "I read the setup and noticed a hated/loved mechanic of some sort likely exists" post

2) then has the "if I were scum I wouldn't have pointed it out" post

3) the other wagons are all bad

And there you have it. Best of the best for D1 cases

I didnít like something here. Not sure what.

Contents-wise, point 2 could be a thing. Depends on how noobish said player is, if scum discussed N0, and if scum has a player that is affected.  Especially with the last possibility, pointing it out via voting rule gets you town points plus protects scum who would be affected.

Well, I have enough experience to know that I wouldn't get town points for pointing out setup stuff. This came up in the last game I played; it seems the consensus is that pointing out setup stuff is null to scummy. However, in this case I thought it was pro-town to call attention to that information, so I did it. I don't expect anyone to town-read me for that, but that was my thought process.

If anyone has knowledge of whether scum has any players with voting modifiers or not, please feel free to speak up!
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: jotheonah on January 16, 2019, 10:40:33 am
Unofficial vote count

Robz888 (1): Galzria
mail-mi (1): SpaceAnemone
jotheonah (1): mail-mi
hypercube (2): 2.71828....., Glooble
Awaclus (1): DatSwan
DatSwan (1): Awaclus
ashersky (1): Robz888
Glooble (3): hypercube, LaLight, WestCoastDidds

Not Voting (3): mcmcsalot, ashersky, jotheonah
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Glooble on January 16, 2019, 10:59:33 am

On that topic, we should talk about claims. I'm not sure it makes sense to autoclaim at R1 when everyone has a power role. I think maybe you should only claim if you think your role is exceptionally powerful? But it's also not really clear to me that the power level of roles is even knowable without more context. I certainly have no idea if mine is powerful or not.


The assumption here is that all of the power roles are positive. We have no evidence of this.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Robz888 on January 16, 2019, 11:50:05 am
E's case on hypercube is okay.

Vote: hypercube

I hate the wagon on Glooble, shame on all of you. For one thing, I just don't like to lynch new and returning players Day 1 unless there's a good reason (sends the wrong message!). But anyway it makes perfect sense for Glooble, who doesn't know ash plans are a typical thing, to really focus on this, as any alignment.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mail-mi on January 16, 2019, 03:56:12 pm
Looks like joth isnt happening right now so I'll go back to vote: hypercube
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on January 16, 2019, 06:13:08 pm
I hate the wagon on Glooble, shame on all of you. For one thing, I just don't like to lynch new and returning players Day 1 unless there's a good reason (sends the wrong message!). But anyway it makes perfect sense for Glooble, who doesn't know ash plans are a typical thing, to really focus on this, as any alignment.

Alright, thatís fair.

vote: mcmc because one post in 3+ days seems out of character
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on January 16, 2019, 06:52:34 pm
I hate the wagon on Glooble, shame on all of you. For one thing, I just don't like to lynch new and returning players Day 1 unless there's a good reason (sends the wrong message!). But anyway it makes perfect sense for Glooble, who doesn't know ash plans are a typical thing, to really focus on this, as any alignment.

Alright, thatís fair.

vote: mcmc because one post in 3+ days seems out of character

Were all the votes on Glooble just because of his attitude to Ash's plan, though? Yours wasn't very well-explained, and just singled him out as the most productive place your vote could be, which isn't very enlightening for the rest of us. hyper's vote is the one that appeared to be explicitly because Glooble was promoting stalling while waiting for Ash. LL's was totally unexplained. So I'm not sure quite what your "that's fair" comment is agreeing with in Robz's statement.

I also don't feel the hyper wagon, because I approve of setup-reading, and think it's something an analytical player is quite likely to do. Am I right in remembering that hyper leans that sort of way?

I think a pressure vote on mcmc isn't a terrible thing right now. Vote: mcmc
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: jotheonah on January 16, 2019, 07:46:35 pm
there's actually a couple of things about Glooble that I don't love. This post was a little much:

This wagon is me pretty obviously being pushed by hypercube to derail the wagon on her.

vote: hypercube

I was already leaning that direction anyway and now itís looking like classic misdirection.

Still suspicious of ashersky though.

It just .... feels inauthentic. It feels like scared scum. But then, what do we make of this post less than 24 hours earlier?

At the risk of sounding scummy given that she is my sister irl, I don't get the wagon on joth right now. He's being sarcastic and flippant, but that's just his style. All of his observations seem genuine to me.

Day one is hard, there's so little concrete to go on. I'm eager to hear ashersky's secret plan to fight inflation (have we done West Wing Mafia yet? that could be fun.)

Anyway, this little fight between DatSwan and Awaclus doesn't look great for either of them, but DatSwan comes out of it looking a little more jumpy and defensive, which is often how I feel early on as scum, so for now, vote: DatSwan

I think town!Glooble pointing to something as a scum tell and then shortly thereafter doing that thing is a lot more likely than scum!Glooble doing that. But if it's inadvertent, as scum jumpy defensiveness often is, then maybe.

I think jumpy defensiveness is one of the best scum tells especially in new or out of practice players. But it definitely does give off false negatives.

Anyway, I don't want to vote Glooble today. I agree with RObz on giving her a day 1 pass for meta reasons. But consider this a big ol' FoS.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: jotheonah on January 16, 2019, 07:47:49 pm
I can also see Glooble being acutely aware of how jumpy and defensive it can feel to be scum early in the day precisely because she's currently experiencing it, and then posting that and feeling very clever about it.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: faust on January 17, 2019, 12:59:47 am
Vote Count 1.3

Robz888 (1): Galzria
hypercube (4): 2.71828....., Glooble, Robz888, mail-mi
Awaclus (1): DatSwan
DatSwan (1): Awaclus
Glooble (2): hypercube, LaLight
mcmcsalot (2): WestCoastDidds, SpaceAnemone

Not Voting (3): mcmcsalot, ashersky, jotheonah

With 14 alive, it takes 8 to lynch. Day 1 ends on January 20, 2019, 04:00:00 am.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: DatSwan on January 17, 2019, 02:32:36 am
Ashersky explicitly stated he wouldn't reveal his plan until very late D1.

1) there is absolutely no reason to wait for a plan
2) people who state they are waiting for said plan are attempting to be artificially townie, and thus are scummy

Agreed.

vote:ashersky

Please explain this post.

Cards on the table: Personally, I would rather not D1 lynch you after talking you into playing so we could have enough players to launch the game. But, in-game, I am finding you quite scummy.

I am not asking for anything to come of this - just a polite "hey buddy". Probably not OK to say things like this - from my understanding we are supposed to remove IRL among "twins" completely from the thread.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: DatSwan on January 17, 2019, 02:44:32 am
Also, for the record, hating on ashersky plans is just a hipster contrarianism thing to do. As Awaclus points out subconsciously, the efficacy of ashersky plans notwithstanding, the airing of, discussion of, and sometimes demolishing of ashersky plans is always pro-town. And generally they are pro-town regardless of my own alignment.

If you want to complain about ashersky plans, the correct way is to say it has zero bearing on my alignment so I deserve no town points for them. Unfortunately, I often do get scum points if I donít have one, so partly this is all your fault.

Separate to this, using waiting for the plan as an excuse to not otherwise engage is not an acceptable action.

One could argue if your plans are generally Pro-Town regardless of alignment, then it is skummy to make town wait to hear said plan.

Just saying - you know a plan is going to have an effect on the skum hunting (inevitable and NAI)... but withholding it after stating it exists doesn't really make sense. It is still going to have the unwanted effect of dialing back skum hunting, while simultaneously lessening the amount of time we all have to discuss the plan prior to the day ending.

In the few games I have played with you, I def give you the credit for being a crafty minx and all, but this doesn't really make a ton of sense.
And then back that up with the girl (doing Gooble's thing) bringing it up in the first place, followed by being the one accusing people of stalling... kind of reeks of skum sauce.


Vote: Ashes

Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: DatSwan on January 17, 2019, 02:47:08 am
Australia for 2 more days btw - will be more active after I am home.

Skum points to Robz and Joth. We are playing this game, right now. You should not factor in how long it has been since a player has played (in the sense of removing them as a lynch). If you care more about the success of the forum than the quality of the game MOD them instead and don't play.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: DatSwan on January 17, 2019, 02:49:24 am
Australia for 2 more days btw - will be more active after I am home.

Skum points to Robz and Joth. We are playing this game, right now. You should not factor in how long it has been since a player has played (in the sense of removing them as a lynch). If you care more about the success of the forum than the quality of the game MOD them instead and don't play.

This came off insanely sharp - sorry. I stand by my point, but didnít mean it to sound the way it did in the original context.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: ashersky on January 17, 2019, 05:02:17 am
I think town points for DatSwan making such a terrible decision but backing it up with Swiss cheese reasoning. Not sound scum play. Day 1 town read.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Awaclus on January 17, 2019, 05:15:20 am
One could argue if your plans are generally Pro-Town regardless of alignment, then it is skummy to make town wait to hear said plan.

No it isn't if letting scum hear the plan isn't part of the plan.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: hypercube on January 17, 2019, 06:49:01 am
I agree with Joth's points regarding Glooble; I don't like the way she's been handling pressure at all. I really do think this comment could be something that nervous scum would say, especially since I think Swan was clearly being agressive rather than defensive there:

DatSwan comes out of it looking a little more jumpy and defensive, which is often how I feel early on as scum, so for now, vote: DatSwan

Anyways if people don't want to vote for Glooble for meta reasons that's their prerogative I suppose, but I hope they're not using that as an excuse to not scrutinize her.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Glooble on January 17, 2019, 07:47:47 am
I admit I have been jumpy and defensive since I started getting votes on me, and I know that doesnít look good. Iím pretty sure itís  because 1. Iím just an anxious person, and 2. I was given a very strange role and Iím still figuring out its implications for my playstyle.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: jotheonah on January 17, 2019, 07:47:59 am
Swan: I think ďnot wanting to lynch xĒ and ďnot wanting to lynch x D1Ē are very different prospects. I donít think the occasional day 1 pass compromises the integrity of the game. Itís similar (in terms of the affect on the game) to holding off on a d1 lynch of a very scummy player who claimed a PR. You can always lynch them the next day.

Anyway, vote: ashersky. Swanís making sense here and ashís response really rubbed me the wrong way.

PS: iíll hammer Glooble if it comes to it, fwiw.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: LaLight on January 17, 2019, 07:49:24 am
I think I would like to return to vote: joth

I don't want to lynch ash just yet and even get him to L-1. joth looks scummyish to me. As is Glooble still
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Robz888 on January 17, 2019, 08:57:53 am
Australia for 2 more days btw - will be more active after I am home.

Skum points to Robz and Joth. We are playing this game, right now. You should not factor in how long it has been since a player has played (in the sense of removing them as a lynch). If you care more about the success of the forum than the quality of the game MOD them instead and don't play.

If I had a strong scum read I would consider lynching the player, but I'm just recognizing that all things being equal I have no clue and am usually wrong. On Day 1 there's so many players, you have to whittle down your list somehow, so crossing people off for semi arbitrary reasons is not all the objectionable in my opinion.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: jotheonah on January 17, 2019, 09:13:10 am
I think I would like to return to vote: joth

I don't want to lynch ash just yet and even get him to L-1. joth looks scummyish to me. As is Glooble still

Ashersky is 5 votes away from L1 so I think weíre ok.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: 2.71828..... on January 17, 2019, 09:59:44 am
Why is Glooble scummy? Reactions all read town to me.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: 2.71828..... on January 17, 2019, 10:01:14 am
With 14 alive, it takes 8 to lynch. Day 1 ends on January 20, 2019, 04:00:00 am.

Also, weekend deadline that is swiftly approaching.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: 2.71828..... on January 17, 2019, 10:01:55 am
Although there is plurality lynch I suppose
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: jotheonah on January 17, 2019, 10:40:25 am
Why is Glooble scummy? Reactions all read town to me.

I think cube and I have made the case as clearly as we know how.

Deadline plurality lynch is bad for us I think because it's (A) easy for scum to manipulate and (B) doesn't allow time for claiming (or rather, for reacting to a claim).

Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: hypercube on January 17, 2019, 10:46:09 am
I'm not really interested in an Ash lynch. I don't think delaying the release of a plan until late in the Day is scummy, both since it could give scum less time to react and because it means we can at least attempt to have some interactions that aren't dominated by discussion of the plan beforehand.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on January 17, 2019, 10:46:24 am
I hate the wagon on Glooble, shame on all of you. For one thing, I just don't like to lynch new and returning players Day 1 unless there's a good reason (sends the wrong message!). But anyway it makes perfect sense for Glooble, who doesn't know ash plans are a typical thing, to really focus on this, as any alignment.

Alright, thatís fair.

vote: mcmc because one post in 3+ days seems out of character

Were all the votes on Glooble just because of his attitude to Ash's plan, though? Yours wasn't very well-explained, and just singled him out as the most productive place your vote could be, which isn't very enlightening for the rest of us. hyper's vote is the one that appeared to be explicitly because Glooble was promoting stalling while waiting for Ash. LL's was totally unexplained. So I'm not sure quite what your "that's fair" comment is agreeing with in Robz's statement.

I also don't feel the hyper wagon, because I approve of setup-reading, and think it's something an analytical player is quite likely to do. Am I right in remembering that hyper leans that sort of way?

I think a pressure vote on mcmc isn't a terrible thing right now. Vote: mcmc

Sorry, Space, I was in a hurry and not terribly inspired, but didn't want to keep not having a vote anywhere.  You are correct that it was not very helpful.

I voted for Glooble because in the Mail-mi, Hyper, Joth, Glooble conversations he was coming off to me as the most defensive. The plan or not thing wasn't terribly interesting, although I agree with DatSwan that announcing a plan but not presenting one is a rather distracting move and in light of how much time we spent talking about it for naught, that seems right. So, Asher isn't looking so good in my book even if she always does this. (As you correctly point out, I don't have a lot of experience with her)

As for why I changed my vote from Robz's comment, I had sympathy for the we shouldn't recruit players to return and then lynch them for their trouble right out of the gate. Although in fairness, the vote was more for seeing how he responds to pressure than it was about a lynch. (The answer to that is that I find him defensive, but not flailing.)

I am still of the opinion that Mcmc is skeevy for just not playing at all. And if she's not scum, I am quite certain that at the very least, she will not be missed.

Oh yeah....the 4 am (3 am for me) Saturday deadline. I am most definitely not around at that time. So, perhaps we think of Friday as the deadline for practical purposes. Or, I will at least.

DatSwan, how has Australia been? When will you get on the monster flight home and be out of commission for many hours?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Glooble on January 17, 2019, 11:02:22 am
My problem with the mcmc lynch is that lynching a lurker tells us nothing. If she's scum that's fine, but if she's town, we have no wagons to analyze or anything like that. We are essentially back at day one (aside from night actions of course.)

But if she doesn't show up and start participating, I suppose I'll support that wagon.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mail-mi on January 17, 2019, 11:03:16 am
Ashersky is being ashersky, I'm completely null on her right now

Still liking hypercube, maybe glooble (also very willing to give day 1 pass) and would definitely go for mcmc, if only for lurking. Also willing to go back to joth.

I'm still super busy with homework and stuff, we'll see if I can pull together a reads post sometime soon.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Glooble on January 17, 2019, 11:07:53 am
Also I echo the need for a soft deadline of some sort. I will certainly be asleep when the real deadline hits.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mail-mi on January 17, 2019, 11:10:10 am
I should be around until at least an hour or two before deadline, would be willing to hammer almost anyone if necessary.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: hypercube on January 17, 2019, 11:15:19 am
request prods on mcmc, Galz
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Glooble on January 17, 2019, 11:16:49 am
I should be around until at least an hour or two before deadline, would be willing to hammer almost anyone if necessary.

I guess if we get to that point and it looks like I'm the lynch I'll say my piece before I go to bed. Only thing is if my piece convinces ya'll not to lynch me we might end up in a bind.

Ditto for just about anyone we might choose.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: hypercube on January 17, 2019, 11:19:18 am
I'll be around for at least 30 mins or so before the deadline.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: hypercube on January 17, 2019, 11:21:51 am
In any case we still have tomorrow before the people who only post during work hours disappear. I'm not going to start moving my vote to somewhere I'm not happy with it right now.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on January 17, 2019, 01:35:08 pm
I think a pressure vote on mcmc isn't a terrible thing right now. Vote: mcmc

Sorry, Space, I was in a hurry and not terribly inspired, but didn't want to keep not having a vote anywhere.  You are correct that it was not very helpful.

Did you misread me there? I think the pressure vote is not a terrible thing, meaning I think it's reasonable.That's why I joined you on the wagon :-)
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on January 17, 2019, 01:39:42 pm
Oh yeah....the 4 am (3 am for me) Saturday deadline. I am most definitely not around at that time. So, perhaps we think of Friday as the deadline for practical purposes. Or, I will at least.

The deadline is 4am Forum Time on the 20th, which is Sunday morning. I can see that with participation dropping at weekends, it might be handy to have an imaginary deadline on Friday night, but your text appears to be presenting the actual deadline as being overnight Friday-to-Saturday, but it's essentially late Saturday night for most people.

This is not to say that we shouldn't pick up the pace... just that nobody should use the shortness of time till deadline as an excuse for bad rushed play if there's actually 24 hours more than you think...
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on January 17, 2019, 01:46:18 pm
My problem with the mcmc lynch is that lynching a lurker tells us nothing. If she's scum that's fine, but if she's town, we have no wagons to analyze or anything like that.

I strongly disagree with this.

Firstly, it probably tells us something about what other roles are out there. This is more useful for town than for scum, because right now we (probably?) each only have one datapoint to go on to build up a framework of how the game works, and a second point is a 100% improvement. Less so for scum, because they probably already know each other's roles too.

Secondly, we already have wagons to look at, and flips on later days will let us look at people who're voting together or avoiding being on the same wagons. The only downside is that mcmc hasn't voted at all, which is just really bad town play from him. That hinders voting analysis whether or not we flip him now.

Thirdly, if mcmc is lurking this badly, we remove him from the game and leave more active players who give us better wagon analysis, more interactions and more gameplay. Scum isn't going to take him out for us if he's leaving himself as a big unknown, and he's really not a player town wants alive at lylo if he's not someone we can form opinions of... so if we don't have strong scumreads on active players, then mcmc is a great place for a good towny vote to go.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on January 17, 2019, 01:59:08 pm
Oh! 4 am Sunday! Good catch. Still super early/late in the day, but not as early in the weekend.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on January 17, 2019, 02:00:27 pm
Space's explanation of the value of Mcmc lynch is Super Town
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: hypercube on January 17, 2019, 02:06:58 pm
Space's explanation of the value of Mcmc lynch is Super Town

I agree that it makes a lot of sense. I wasn't convinced of the utility before, but now I'm going to vote: mcmc since it seems like the Glooble wagon isn't getting there today.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: jotheonah on January 17, 2019, 02:36:33 pm
How often does LAL actually hit scum though?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mail-mi on January 17, 2019, 03:32:59 pm
My problem with the mcmc lynch is that lynching a lurker tells us nothing. If she's scum that's fine, but if she's town, we have no wagons to analyze or anything like that.

I strongly disagree with this.

Firstly, it probably tells us something about what other roles are out there. This is more useful for town than for scum, because right now we (probably?) each only have one datapoint to go on to build up a framework of how the game works, and a second point is a 100% improvement. Less so for scum, because they probably already know each other's roles too.

Secondly, we already have wagons to look at, and flips on later days will let us look at people who're voting together or avoiding being on the same wagons. The only downside is that mcmc hasn't voted at all, which is just really bad town play from him. That hinders voting analysis whether or not we flip him now.

Thirdly, if mcmc is lurking this badly, we remove him from the game and leave more active players who give us better wagon analysis, more interactions and more gameplay. Scum isn't going to take him out for us if he's leaving himself as a big unknown, and he's really not a player town wants alive at lylo if he's not someone we can form opinions of... so if we don't have strong scumreads on active players, then mcmc is a great place for a good towny vote to go.

^^ I like this a lot
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Glooble on January 17, 2019, 03:39:31 pm
I'm ready to vote for mcmc if she hasn't popped in again by Saturday night. Space's logic is sound, I still think it doesn't give us nearly as much to go on day 2 as if they'd been participating. But the value of an active contributor still being alive is probably greater than the value of having another player of confirmed alignment whose day 1 play we can scrutinize, which is something I admit I didn't factor in.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: 2.71828..... on January 17, 2019, 04:53:58 pm
How often does LAL actually hit scum though?

Basically never. Scum!mcmc (hate to say it) doesn't lurk this hard
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: ashersky on January 17, 2019, 05:53:59 pm
How often does LAL actually hit scum though?

Basically never. Scum!mcmc (hate to say it) doesn't lurk this hard

This is correct. When momsalon rolls scum, he is into the game.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: ashersky on January 17, 2019, 05:55:20 pm
Deadline is Sunday evening for me, so I donít foresee any problems being around.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: DatSwan on January 17, 2019, 07:20:40 pm
One could argue if your plans are generally Pro-Town regardless of alignment, then it is skummy to make town wait to hear said plan.

No it isn't if letting scum hear the plan isn't part of the plan.

I mean i guess that makes sense... but that means never stating the plan. So why even say there is a plan?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on January 17, 2019, 07:21:10 pm
Deadline is Sunday evening for me, so I donít foresee any problems being around.

It's possible that you, Awaclus and e are the only ones who can be there easily! I may be awake, but it's early for me because I'm a night owl and Sundays are for ensuring I get enough sleep to face the week ahead :-P

Everyone else: that means that the "least number of additional votes to lynch" mechanic comes into play, and those three between them probably get to decide who dies if the rest of us don't form a firm enough consensus.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on January 17, 2019, 07:29:32 pm
I mean i guess that makes sense... but that means never stating the plan. So why even say there is a plan?

If he didn't state that he had a plan, he wouldn't get to be the centre of attention without doing any actual scum-hunting :-P

I was going to say that I have no good reason to scumread him for it, since that's just what he does most games. However, in this game we're explicitly talking about how it's an anti-town thing to let the game stall just because he's announced an intent to post a plan for future discussion, and he's aware that people are doing exactly that kind of stalling (whether he thinks they should or not...), and yet he's still not revealing his alleged plan. So I guess that is a bit anti-town; I just don't feel like that sort of anti-town play is all that alignment-indicative coming from Ashersky :-(

Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on January 17, 2019, 07:47:44 pm
Space Count

Robz888 (1): Galzria
hypercube (4): 2.71828....., Glooble, Robz888, mail-mi
DatSwan (1): Awaclus
mcmcsalot (3): WestCoastDidds, SpaceAnemone, hypercube
ashersky (2): DatSwan, jotheonah
jotheonah (1): LaLight
Not Voting (2): mcmcsalot, ashersky


Galz has been awol for more than 48 hours, and his preceding post was a day and a half before that.. so he's not exactly been engaged. The Robz vote did not seem to be cast based on game-play.

Glooble and mail-mi have expressed some interest in moving to mcmc, or at least acknowledging my reasoning there. I should stress that any actual scum-reads people have are things they should definitely vote on, and my case on mcmc is only that all other things being equal, it's better to lynch dead weight than a more active towny. (Lynching scum is better, but is not something I typically expect we can do on D1 anyway).

Ash and e have both indicated that mcmc's low participation level is indicative of him being town. I take the point, but TBH, there's far too much acceptance of people going long periods without meaningful contributions now, so I think hard lurking is a strategy people could get away with as scum far better now than when I first joined the forum. Therefore I'm not at all willing to give significant townpoints for his disappearance.

Awaclus looks quite lonely on the Swan wagon there. Not long ago he was schooling Swan about how making wagons one vote larger is always pro-town.. does that mean he thinks it's untowny to sit on lonely solitary wagons instead of making existing ones bigger?

Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mcmcsalot on January 17, 2019, 08:02:29 pm
im in mid catch-up btw apologies for the absence
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mail-mi on January 17, 2019, 08:24:04 pm
1. SpaceAnemone - is doing regular SpaceAnemone things, from what I remember. Slight town read.
2. jotheonah - Still seems a little too flippant. Scum read
3. LaLight - Um... don't remember anything in particular right now, null read
4. DatSwan - same as above, though I suppose if everyone decided to sheep Awaclus I could join
5. mail-mi - is me
6. Awaclus - is Awaclus. As always, slight scum read
7. 2.71828..... - seems to be good. Wouldn't prefer to lynch today
8. WestCoastDidds - seems townie to me, wouldn't prefer to lynch
9. Robz888 - is in robz's d1 laze. Eh, null read
10. hypercube - preferred lynch
11. mcmcsalot - lurking, but I agree with e's and ash's posts though. Less sure about lynching him
12. ashersky - null read
13. Galzria - Lurking, but is a vet. Would also lynch him, probably over mcmc
14. Glooble - want to give him a d1 pass, but if everyone wants to lynch him I will
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on January 17, 2019, 08:34:56 pm
im in mid catch-up btw apologies for the absence

Hooray! You've been missed!
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mcmcsalot on January 17, 2019, 08:41:41 pm
Okay so the hyper cube wagon was a good day one wagon and went away based on people bringing up other worse wagons and not attacking the validity of the cube wagon. vote: hypercube
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mcmcsalot on January 17, 2019, 08:43:44 pm
also e, mail-me, ash and wcd are all super towny.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mcmcsalot on January 17, 2019, 08:48:25 pm
can confirm ash plans are bad for scum.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: jotheonah on January 17, 2019, 08:49:45 pm
Okay so the hyper cube wagon was a good day one wagon and went away based on people bringing up other worse wagons and not attacking the validity of the cube wagon. vote: hypercube

What was the case on her again?

My issue with that wagon is all my scumreada are on it.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: jotheonah on January 17, 2019, 08:51:25 pm
Also what are you taking about ďwent awayĒ? Itís currently the leading wagon...
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on January 17, 2019, 09:06:19 pm
I'm also interested in hearing the case on hyper. It seems like it started because he was reminding us of the plurality lynch, and I don't find that scummy.

I am feeling the argument that dead weight is a better lynch than an active player, and hyper has been active. If mcmc is gonna start playing with us, I'll move to Glaz. Is she starts playing to, then hyper looks more attractive to me. LL is less active than I'd expect, too. I forgot she was playing until I read Mail-mi's list.

My biggest town reads are Space, mail-mi, and Swan.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mcmcsalot on January 17, 2019, 09:23:52 pm
Also what are you taking about ďwent awayĒ? Itís currently the leading wagon...

oh it is good, it felt like people stopped discussing it. Interesting that the votes stayed.

It actually started from him making a scummy vote for joth

Vote: Jotheonah

This felt like pouncing on mail-mi for something that might very well be wrong but was not especially likely to come from scum. (Town needs no help tricking itself into mass claiming.)

When does scum ever actually do this? Scum doesn't need to pounce at this juncture. Scum just needs to wait for a good-looking town wagon and slide onboard.

Well, scum wants to look like they're.scumhunting.

vote: joth

vote: hypercube

This is exactly the position scum wants to be on the wagon. Voting for someone who already has votes, and turning a couple votes into an actual wagon

I know that didn't make much sense, I'm having a hard time putting my thoughts into words. I hope you (meaning the general populus)understands what I'm trying to say
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mcmcsalot on January 17, 2019, 09:24:33 pm
Also I can second robz who said mail-mi votes very mid consciousness
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Awaclus on January 17, 2019, 09:57:02 pm
Awaclus looks quite lonely on the Swan wagon there. Not long ago he was schooling Swan about how making wagons one vote larger is always pro-town.. does that mean he thinks it's untowny to sit on lonely solitary wagons instead of making existing ones bigger?

It would be pro-town of people to join this wagon to make it bigger.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mcmcsalot on January 17, 2019, 10:22:09 pm
Awaclus looks quite lonely on the Swan wagon there. Not long ago he was schooling Swan about how making wagons one vote larger is always pro-town.. does that mean he thinks it's untowny to sit on lonely solitary wagons instead of making existing ones bigger?

It would be pro-town of people to join this wagon to make it bigger.

whats the swan case? he feels less swany this game but not sure what that means alignment wise
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Awaclus on January 17, 2019, 11:14:56 pm
whats the swan case? he feels less swany this game but not sure what that means alignment wise

What isn't the swan case?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: jotheonah on January 18, 2019, 12:09:29 am
Quote from: WestCoastDidds link=topic=19374.msg783265#msg783265
LL is less active than I'd expect, too. I forgot she was playing until I read Mail-mi's list.

LL is in LyLo in another game, so Iím inclined to cut her a little slack on that account.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Awaclus on January 18, 2019, 12:32:43 am
Quote from: WestCoastDidds link=topic=19374.msg783265#msg783265
LL is less active than I'd expect, too. I forgot she was playing until I read Mail-mi's list.

LL is in LyLo in another game, so Iím inclined to cut her a little slack on that account.

Please don't talk about other ongoing games.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: LaLight on January 18, 2019, 03:14:21 am
I am also really confused on D1 pretty much always. I will try to be here at deadline, but no promises, it's a weekend after all
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: LaLight on January 18, 2019, 03:15:06 am
nevermind, it's 4 am
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: hypercube on January 18, 2019, 05:32:38 am
oh it is good, it felt like people stopped discussing it. Interesting that the votes stayed.

It actually started from him making a scummy vote for joth

That vote was fine. I stand by the point that joth's vote for mail-mi could be explained as scum trying to look like they're scumhunting, since mail-mi floating a flavour claim isn't really something that points to scum. It was also good to get the first non-RVS wagon going.

People haven't been discussing the case against me because it's not a good case, and scum have no motivation to engage with the people who have been pointing that out since the wagon keeps rolling regardless. The case is mostly based on me having read the setup; as you perhaps remember from M119 I'm someone who likes to engage with the setup in general.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Glooble on January 18, 2019, 06:06:52 am
My vote for cube is actually based on what looked to me at the time like a very suspicious vote for me. It seemed like she was trying to deflect the case on her that was obviously building, what with e promising a great case on cube.

That case turned out to be underwhelming though.

E is feeling very pro-town to me partially because sheís been defending me and my wagon looks to me like it would be the easiest one for scum to push, since Iíve admittedly said some scummy things. But I admit that logic is only useful if you know Iím town, and at this point only I know that.

Iím wondering how much of the cube wagon right now is herd mentality/ fear of a plurality lynch.I think the main driver of the hypercube wagon is e, so Iíd love to see more defense of it from her.  I still have a scumread on cube, but some of it is admittedly OMGUS-related. But combined with the fact that we do get some really useful intel in the event that she does flip town, and I think she has a slightly better chance than others of flipping scum, Iím going to keep my vote where it is.

That being said, Iíd love to see everyone on the cube wagon offer a similar explanation of their thought process, if only to give us more to analyze day two.

Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on January 18, 2019, 06:38:07 am
my wagon looks to me like it would be the easiest one for scum to push, since Iíve admittedly said some scummy things.

Again, I find myself disagreeing with you. You're the one person multiple people have said is getting a D1 pass due to being back after a long absence. If you're town, I think scum aren't going to waste their time trying to push a mislynch because of townies stating they just don't want to vote for you. I think the most likely people to have voted for you are townies who think you're actually scummy.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: hypercube on January 18, 2019, 06:50:28 am
My vote for cube is actually based on what looked to me at the time like a very suspicious vote for me. It seemed like she was trying to deflect the case on her that was obviously building, what with e promising a great case on cube.

That case turned out to be underwhelming though.

At the time I voted for you, E had presented her case; I didn't think it would generate a lot of discussion since it wasn't very strong and it didn't really present anything new. I thought voting for you was a good idea since you'd been posting a good amount but not in a way that was committal or was conducive to reading you. And it worked, you were compelled to produce more content that led to people forming reads on you.

E is feeling very pro-town to me partially because sheís been defending me and my wagon looks to me like it would be the easiest one for scum to push, since Iíve admittedly said some scummy things. But I admit that logic is only useful if you know Iím town, and at this point only I know that.

Well, scum also would know that you're town, so you shouldn't necessarily trust people for that reason. I'm not sure if it's a scumslip or a townslip for you to have forgotten that.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: hypercube on January 18, 2019, 06:57:30 am
One thing I've noticed about the game thus far is that people are very willing to defend joth. mail-mi and mcmc use my vote for joth as justification for their votes on me; E moves directly from joth to me after I vote for joth and then her case against me derails the joth wagon for good. I think this points towards joth being town? Certainly I'd think that scum would try to avoid defending their buddies so blatantly, especially since it never seemed super likely that joth would get lynched.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: jotheonah on January 18, 2019, 07:32:09 am
Iím going to go ahead and say it: I strongly dislike the cube wagon. Everything about it feels scummy and bad. Iím going to move my vote to vote: mcmc. Not because of lurking, because of the posting sheís done since she stopped lurking.

I think describing the hypercube wagon as stalled while hypercube was the leading wagon, after saying she just caught up, is a scumslip. Someone who just caught up wouldnít make that mistake. Someone who was reading along and not posting and decided to make an appearance when the heat started getting on them might.

I know that when Iím scum itís hard to get myself to actually reread since Iím not actually looking for information.

Even if the mistake isnít a scum slip, ďsorry Iíve been lurking, Iím going to reread and conclude that the best lynch happens to also be the person with the most votes on her alreadyĒ doesnít look great on its own.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Glooble on January 18, 2019, 07:36:11 am
That makes sense, and itís enough for me to switch my vote.

vote: mcmcsalot
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: jotheonah on January 18, 2019, 07:39:03 am
Thatís L-3 I think.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: ashersky on January 18, 2019, 08:24:20 am
That sheep vote by Glooble is scummy.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Glooble on January 18, 2019, 08:27:12 am
That sheep vote by Glooble is scummy.


I've sort of resigned myself at this point to literally everything I do being seen as scummy, regardless of my alignment. TBH its kind of freeing.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Glooble on January 18, 2019, 08:32:51 am
That being said, I'll explain my vote a little more. 1. Joth's logic resonated with me. 2. Hypercube's defense of her vote on me made me less sure of my scumread on her. 3. As I already said in my previous post, I've been growing a little suspicious of the cube wagon anyway. I just thought it was the best one we had. Now I don't, so I changed my vote.


Satisfied?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: 2.71828..... on January 18, 2019, 09:04:06 am
Vote: jotheonah
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: jotheonah on January 18, 2019, 09:23:25 am
Vote: jotheonah

cool story bro
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mcmcsalot on January 18, 2019, 10:44:33 am
Iím going to go ahead and say it: I strongly dislike the cube wagon. Everything about it feels scummy and bad. Iím going to move my vote to vote: mcmc. Not because of lurking, because of the posting she’s done since she stopped lurking.

I think describing the hypercube wagon as stalled while hypercube was the leading wagon, after saying she just caught up, is a scumslip. Someone who just caught up wouldnít make that mistake. Someone who was reading along and not posting and decided to make an appearance when the heat started getting on them might.

I know that when Iím scum itís hard to get myself to actually reread since Iím not actually looking for information.

Even if the mistake isnít a scum slip, ďsorry Iíve been lurking, Iím going to reread and conclude that the best lynch happens to also be the person with the most votes on her alreadyĒ doesnít look great on its own.

I think this is slightly an incorrect representation of what happened the hypercube wagon has stalled out. the last votes for hyper was from globle, robz and mail-mi returning early on the 16th. Discussion surrounding the wagon and votes has been very minimal despite being a leading wagon most of the day. I think my analiysis of it being a good wagon based on the fact that it has mainly been counterwagoning to try to prevent the hyper lynch instead of defenses of/from hyper (that is until recently).
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: jotheonah on January 18, 2019, 10:52:32 am
Iím going to go ahead and say it: I strongly dislike the cube wagon. Everything about it feels scummy and bad. Iím going to move my vote to vote: mcmc. Not because of lurking, because of the posting sheís done since she stopped lurking.

I think describing the hypercube wagon as stalled while hypercube was the leading wagon, after saying she just caught up, is a scumslip. Someone who just caught up wouldnít make that mistake. Someone who was reading along and not posting and decided to make an appearance when the heat started getting on them might.

I know that when Iím scum itís hard to get myself to actually reread since Iím not actually looking for information.

Even if the mistake isnít a scum slip, ďsorry Iíve been lurking, Iím going to reread and conclude that the best lynch happens to also be the person with the most votes on her alreadyĒ doesnít look great on its own.

I think this is slightly an incorrect representation of what happened the hypercube wagon has stalled out. the last votes for hyper was from glooble, robz and mail-mi returning early on the 16th. Discussion surrounding the wagon and votes has been very minimal despite being a leading wagon most of the day. I think my analiysis of it being a good wagon based on the fact that it has mainly been counterwagoning to try to prevent the hyper lynch instead of defenses of/from hyper (that is until recently).

the exact words you used were "went away". If you had said "stalled out" I might have agreed.

Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Robz888 on January 18, 2019, 11:08:03 am
I'm at a conference until Sunday, what is our deadline? I will be around very little.

I'm still happy with my hypercube vote.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mail-mi on January 18, 2019, 11:18:37 am
I just reread hypercube, and I am no longer satisfied with my vote on her unvote. She hasn't really responded to the wagon on her, which is would be odd scum behavior to me. I feel like scum!hypercube would react more.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mail-mi on January 18, 2019, 11:22:18 am
Galzria has 8 total posts, 3 of which are pregame. His vote is still on an RVS wagon on Robz.

vote: galzria
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mcmcsalot on January 18, 2019, 11:34:29 am
I just reread hypercube, and I am no longer satisfied with my vote on her unvote. She hasn't really responded to the wagon on her, which is would be odd scum behavior to me. I feel like scum!hypercube would react more.

I actually disagree with this, town defends wagons on themselves very strongly, they donít mind getting embroiled in controversy. Scum really wants their wagon to just die down and go away.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mcmcsalot on January 18, 2019, 11:37:58 am
the exact words you used were "went away". If you had said "stalled out" I might have agreed.

Thatís reasonable, but also I think your characterization that I didnít reread carefully is scummy is wrong. Because I was right the wagon had ďslid to the backgroundĒ as of recent. And no I wasnít keeping track of where the votes were moving from where to where as I reread so I missed that despite hyper not having been voted for for a long time those votes were still lingering in the background.

Also scum mcmc doesnít come in from a reread and casually join a wagon, he finds a scummy thing a town player did and pushes it hard.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mail-mi on January 18, 2019, 11:45:49 am
I just reread hypercube, and I am no longer satisfied with my vote on her unvote. She hasn't really responded to the wagon on her, which is would be odd scum behavior to me. I feel like scum!hypercube would react more.

I actually disagree with this, town defends wagons on themselves very strongly, they donít mind getting embroiled in controversy. Scum really wants their wagon to just die down and go away.

that's a good point, however, I still feel like she's less scummy than I at first thought. If she ends up being the lynch for the day, I'll join, but she's no longer my preferred lynch.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mcmcsalot on January 18, 2019, 11:46:25 am
I just reread hypercube, and I am no longer satisfied with my vote on her unvote. She hasn't really responded to the wagon on her, which is would be odd scum behavior to me. I feel like scum!hypercube would react more.

I actually disagree with this, town defends wagons on themselves very strongly, they donít mind getting embroiled in controversy. Scum really wants their wagon to just die down and go away.

that's a good point, however, I still feel like she's less scummy than I at first thought. If she ends up being the lynch for the day, I'll join, but she's no longer my preferred lynch.

Who is?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mcmcsalot on January 18, 2019, 11:47:37 am
Galzria has 8 total posts, 3 of which are pregame. His vote is still on an RVS wagon on Robz.

vote: galzria

oh duh, this also appears to be a lurker lynch. As I said I dislike that instead of people strongly going "i don't like the hyper wagon" we are just going maybe we should lynch player x or y who has posted no content.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mail-mi on January 18, 2019, 11:50:30 am
Galzria has 8 total posts, 3 of which are pregame. His vote is still on an RVS wagon on Robz.

vote: galzria

oh duh, this also appears to be a lurker lynch. As I said I dislike that instead of people strongly going "i don't like the hyper wagon" we are just going maybe we should lynch player x or y who has posted no content.

he's basically a placeholder for my vote until I can do a proper reread and find someone better
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mail-mi on January 18, 2019, 11:51:14 am
Galzria has 8 total posts, 3 of which are pregame. His vote is still on an RVS wagon on Robz.

vote: galzria

oh duh, this also appears to be a lurker lynch. As I said I dislike that instead of people strongly going "i don't like the hyper wagon" we are just going maybe we should lynch player x or y who has posted no content.

he's basically a placeholder for my vote until I can do a proper reread and find someone better

or until someone else presents a good case. the only case I remember off the top of my head right now is the one on hypercube
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: jotheonah on January 18, 2019, 11:56:05 am
Galzria has 8 total posts, 3 of which are pregame. His vote is still on an RVS wagon on Robz.

vote: galzria

oh duh, this also appears to be a lurker lynch. As I said I dislike that instead of people strongly going "i don't like the hyper wagon" we are just going maybe we should lynch player x or y who has posted no content.

he's basically a placeholder for my vote until I can do a proper reread and find someone better

or until someone else presents a good case. the only case I remember off the top of my head right now is the one on hypercube

How about the case on mcmcsalot I made just moments ago?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on January 18, 2019, 12:01:42 pm
Going back to what Space said earlier, I don't think in a game like this that voting for someone who isn't even trying to play is a bad idea. We learn something about how this game is going to work by seeing the flip (and we really have zero idea about how this game is going to work but having read the books I am quite certain that there is going to be some interesting twists).

When Hyper was last scum in a game I played with him (Towny mafia), he got very jumpy and defensive when we voted for him. He isn't acting like that now.  Could be he learned from that exchange (he's a smart one, that cube) or it could be that he's not scum.

I haven't got to play with town Mcmc yet....maybe this time? (also, why are you "momsalon"?) I am still town reading mail-mi, Space, and Swan.

So, in the interest of letting players play a while longer vote: Galzria
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mail-mi on January 18, 2019, 12:27:34 pm
Galzria has 8 total posts, 3 of which are pregame. His vote is still on an RVS wagon on Robz.

vote: galzria

oh duh, this also appears to be a lurker lynch. As I said I dislike that instead of people strongly going "i don't like the hyper wagon" we are just going maybe we should lynch player x or y who has posted no content.

he's basically a placeholder for my vote until I can do a proper reread and find someone better

or until someone else presents a good case. the only case I remember off the top of my head right now is the one on hypercube

How about the case on mcmcsalot I made just moments ago?

i only skimmed over it, now I'm gonna go look at it.

Iím going to go ahead and say it: I strongly dislike the cube wagon. Everything about it feels scummy and bad. Iím going to move my vote to vote: mcmc. Not because of lurking, because of the posting sheís done since she stopped lurking.

I think describing the hypercube wagon as stalled while hypercube was the leading wagon, after saying she just caught up, is a scumslip. Someone who just caught up wouldnít make that mistake. Someone who was reading along and not posting and decided to make an appearance when the heat started getting on them might.

I know that when Iím scum itís hard to get myself to actually reread since Iím not actually looking for information.

Even if the mistake isnít a scum slip, ďsorry Iíve been lurking, Iím going to reread and conclude that the best lynch happens to also be the person with the most votes on her alreadyĒ doesnít look great on its own.

I'm not sure what I think about this. On the one hand, I like it, because I think it's scummy that mcmc came back right after we started putting pressure on her. I also like the last paragraph of this case.

On the other, the hyper wagon was stalling--it wasn't growing in votes or declining in votes. It was just kinda stagnant. I also still scumread you a little bit, so I don't trust this case quite as much.

conclusion: mcmc is a little scummier to me now
 
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Awaclus on January 18, 2019, 04:24:10 pm
I'm slightly VLA at the moment.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Glooble on January 18, 2019, 04:30:48 pm
I don't know that acronym.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mcmcsalot on January 18, 2019, 04:33:43 pm
Vacation/Limited Acess
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Glooble on January 18, 2019, 07:19:09 pm
Thanks.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on January 18, 2019, 07:47:00 pm
can confirm ash plans are bad for scum.

This is interesting. I've yet to encounter an Ash plan I didn't think was a terrible idea for town.

Did someone name one that worked out well somewhere in this thread? I'm sure I read a rec for one a few minutes ago, but I can't find it again now...
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on January 18, 2019, 07:48:00 pm
Vote Count 1.Didds

Robz888 (1): Galzria
hypercube (2):Robz888, , mcmc
DatSwan (1): Awaclus
mcmcsalot (4): SpaceAnemone, hypercube, jotheonah, Glooble
ashersky (1): DatSwan,
jotheonah (2): LaLight, 2.71828.....
galzria: (2) mail-mi, WCD
Not Voting (1): , ashersky

For realz vote count, please

I'm super disappointed that we stalled today. I was hoping we'd hear more from the folks who have been scarce. Le sigh. We have like 32 hours, and that includes a bunch of sleeping. If things remain the same Mcmc is lynched. Is that going to make our game better? How can we leverage the people who are actively engaged in the most productive fashion?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on January 18, 2019, 07:50:14 pm
I don't even know how a plan would work at this plate. We know so little...what could a plan possibly entail that would help us know more? Or maybe I am just so unaccustomed to plans that I can't see how that would work.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on January 18, 2019, 07:50:29 pm
In related news, this time tomorrow will be the end of D1 as far as I'm concerned, because I expect I'll be asleep from a little after 8pm forum time till after the 4am forum time deadline has passed.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on January 18, 2019, 07:52:27 pm
So, in the interest of letting players play a while longer vote: Galzria

Does the fact you've moved to Galz mean that you're still sold on a lurker lynch idea but letting mcmc off the hook? What do you think he's dome that's particularly exonerating?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on January 18, 2019, 07:56:06 pm
I don't know that acronym.

I know mcmc has already answered that VLA means "Vacation/Limited Access", but you might also like to know that there's a VLA thread (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=3621.0) where people can make their planned absences known to other players. It's useful for checking whether a player has posted a disappearance or just gone awol from a particular game.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on January 18, 2019, 07:58:15 pm
Vote Count 1.Didds

If it's any help, my automated count agrees with this one :-)
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on January 18, 2019, 08:07:16 pm
Space, how are you feeling about Mcmc now?

PPE to me...

I am frustrated at the folks who are just absent. I understand busy, but come on. I don't think we can even say its lurking, because that implies sitting in the corner and watching. So, that is all frustration.

Mcmc...well, I don't find him particularly redeemed or exonerated by his play, but I do find him somewhat different than the other two games I have played with him. He was scum in both of them and was around quite a bit more and when he was he was pushing someone in particular consistently. He hasn't done that here. Not terribly compelling as far as a reason, I know, but it is more than I can say about some other's play (I have never known LL to be this scarce, I don't really know e at all).

Joth's case on mcmc which actually had reasons was based on his catch-up reading and hinge's on a turn of phrase as a scum slip. If it was a scum slip, Joth is awesome. But that seems unlikely to me.

e then votes for Joth for his mcmc analysis (I am assuming based on entirely on proximity of the votes) so maybe she feels like Joth was reaching too far or trying too hard.

I guess my conclusion is that mcmc is not decisively scum yet. So, I don't want him to get lynched when there are other people not playing at all. (again with the frustration...)
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on January 18, 2019, 08:49:48 pm
Sorry...that was cranky. I'll try to moderate the grumpasuarusness.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: DatSwan on January 18, 2019, 09:08:41 pm
Space, how are you feeling about Mcmc now?

PPE to me...

I am frustrated at the folks who are just absent. I understand busy, but come on. I don't think we can even say its lurking, because that implies sitting in the corner and watching. So, that is all frustration.

Mcmc...well, I don't find him particularly redeemed or exonerated by his play, but I do find him somewhat different than the other two games I have played with him. He was scum in both of them and was around quite a bit more and when he was he was pushing someone in particular consistently. He hasn't done that here. Not terribly compelling as far as a reason, I know, but it is more than I can say about some other's play (I have never known LL to be this scarce, I don't really know e at all).

Joth's case on mcmc which actually had reasons was based on his catch-up reading and hinge's on a turn of phrase as a scum slip. If it was a scum slip, Joth is awesome. But that seems unlikely to me.

e then votes for Joth for his mcmc analysis (I am assuming based on entirely on proximity of the votes) so maybe she feels like Joth was reaching too far or trying too hard.

I guess my conclusion is that mcmc is not decisively scum yet. So, I don't want him to get lynched when there are other people not playing at all. (again with the frustration...)

Why are you town reading me?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: ashersky on January 18, 2019, 09:08:57 pm
can confirm ash plans are bad for scum.

This is interesting. I've yet to encounter an Ash plan I didn't think was a terrible idea for town.

Did someone name one that worked out well somewhere in this thread? I'm sure I read a rec for one a few minutes ago, but I can't find it again now...

Now this just seems personal. Youíve been around long enough to know what you are saying is untrue.

And I believe it was 2.7 who recommended a plan to read.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: ashersky on January 18, 2019, 09:16:30 pm
If you want another example, I suggest M30. Flawless town win, which I think started with my plan.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: ashersky on January 18, 2019, 09:22:42 pm
Also Mafia 47.  First post of the game, flawless win for town. Posted the plan as scum, included lynching myself first!  Completely based only on public information.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on January 18, 2019, 11:36:00 pm
Why are you town reading me?

Largely because of posts #262-265 where you discuss the implications for town of announcing a plan. Seems like helpful stuff for town to consider.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: 2.71828..... on January 19, 2019, 02:42:01 am
Also Mafia 47.  First post of the game, flawless win for town. Posted the plan as scum, included lynching myself first!  Completely based only on public information.

Yeah, m47 is what I recommended to look at for ashersky plans. I remember it well since I was mafia with ashersky. But then ashersky does have some plans that aren't so great, especially in closed setups. Because, you know, the setup is closed. It is hard to come up with a plan that people actually go with since everyone is working on limited information
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: ashersky on January 19, 2019, 05:24:32 am
request vote count
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: faust on January 19, 2019, 07:41:58 am
Vote Count 1.4

Robz888 (1): Galzria
hypercube (2): Robz888, mcmcsalot
DatSwan (1): Awaclus
mcmcsalot (3): SpaceAnemone, hypercube, Glooble
ashersky (2): DatSwan, jotheonah
jotheonah (2): LaLight, 2.71828.....
Galzria (2): mail-mi, WestCoastDidds

Not Voting (1): ashersky

With 14 alive, it takes 8 to lynch. Day 1 ends on January 20, 2019, 04:00:00 am. This is in just over 20 hours.

request prods on mcmc, Galz

Forgot to note this, but these have been sent some time ago.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mcmcsalot on January 19, 2019, 09:19:38 am
We are all over the place and should consolidate at least. Of the current players with votes I would vote for cube obviously, joth I have a scum read on, and galz I would vote for over my own lynch.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: ashersky on January 19, 2019, 09:27:50 am
shoot: mcmc
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mcmcsalot on January 19, 2019, 09:31:59 am
shoot: mcmc

Am I dead because my pr gives some setup info that would be helpful to know.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: ashersky on January 19, 2019, 09:38:21 am
shoot: mcmc

Am I dead because my pr gives some setup info that would be helpful to know.

Yes. Sorry if you are town. Went with biggest wagon.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Glooble on January 19, 2019, 09:46:33 am
This was the big plan?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: faust on January 19, 2019, 09:56:23 am
A quick move was all it took, and the ship carrying the Lord of the Radch's emissary went up in flames.

mcmcsalot has been killed! She was Mercy of Kalr, the Radch-aligned Fixed Modified Multi-Motion Dectector!

Haddock replaces Galzria! D1 deadline is extended by 24 hours.


Vote Count 1.5

Robz888 (1): Haddock
hypercube (1): Robz888
DatSwan (1): Awaclus
ashersky (2): DatSwan, jotheonah
jotheonah (2): LaLight, 2.71828.....
Haddock (2): mail-mi, WestCoastDidds

Not Voting (4): ashersky, SpaceAnemone, hypercube, Glooble

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch. Day 1 ends on January 21, 2019, 04:00:00 am.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: ashersky on January 19, 2019, 10:03:29 am
This was the big plan?

Pretty big. Thereís the info. Plus what it did for my next shot. I
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: ashersky on January 19, 2019, 10:04:19 am
Although, had I known there was to be a replacement and extension, I would not have shot until tomorrow.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: ashersky on January 19, 2019, 10:06:16 am
It has no bearing at this juncture, but we often discuss having vig shots directed.  But there is thecscum element there that canít be erased. Instead, I used the flow of day and the votes.

Honestly, if I had chosen by myself, Iíd have shot Glooble.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: ashersky on January 19, 2019, 10:08:20 am
As for tomorrow, I guess we can discuss.  But Iíd suggest that be left until tomorrow.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: ashersky on January 19, 2019, 10:09:45 am
Iím Captain Hetnys, btw.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: jotheonah on January 19, 2019, 10:24:52 am
It seems pretty unlikely that a multi shot, or even one-shot, dayvig is town. So I would suggest we take the ash lynch off the table, at least for now.

unvote

Iíll look at some interactions to see where to move it.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mail-mi on January 19, 2019, 10:27:21 am
Well there's that.

Back to vote: joth
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: jotheonah on January 19, 2019, 10:59:36 am
Cool cool. Anybody else feel like this Ash plan was kinda bad?

Like what good is information when we have no time to use it? Especially in a format with a mandatory lynch. Day 1 lynch is always most likely town, so Ashís plan was ďhave twice as many day 1 lynches, kill twice as much townĒ?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: 2.71828..... on January 19, 2019, 11:21:10 am
That was a pretty terrible vig shot in my opinion
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: 2.71828..... on January 19, 2019, 11:32:46 am
Should have kept my vote on hypercube, maybe Ash could have shot them
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: 2.71828..... on January 19, 2019, 11:33:41 am
But actually. Vote: ashersky

Convince me you aren't a SK or something like that
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on January 19, 2019, 11:37:26 am
Ugh! Why kill mcmc? We werenít that close to the deadline so it doesnít make any sense to say the votes were there. And now we still need to lupynch someone?

Vote: Ash
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: 2.71828..... on January 19, 2019, 11:41:14 am
It has no bearing at this juncture, but we often discuss having vig shots directed.  But there is thecscum element there that canít be erased. Instead, I used the flow of day and the votes.

Honestly, if I had chosen by myself, Iíd have shot Glooble.

Shooting Glooble and it being YOUR shot would have been better than the whole "I chose the largest wagon" thing. Wagons of 2, 2, 2, 3 at the time of the shot. Yeah, just shoot your scum read. Basing it off wagons when there are no real wagons is just ugh
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: 2.71828..... on January 19, 2019, 11:45:20 am
Ok, knee jerk reaction is over.

Back to vote: joth

It seems pretty unlikely that a multi shot, or even one-shot, dayvig is town. So I would suggest we take the ash lynch off the table, at least for now.

unvote

Iíll look at some interactions to see where to move it.

This was an interesting reaction, and I think scummy
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: hypercube on January 19, 2019, 12:49:22 pm
Interesting. I think E's reaction is scummier than joth's.

vote: E
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: hypercube on January 19, 2019, 12:55:52 pm
I don't really like the joth wagon or the ash wagon. I would be willing to go back to Glooble.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: hypercube on January 19, 2019, 01:03:42 pm
I'm not really sure what to do with this new information. I thought the mcmc wagon was pretty towny, and joth's case against mcmc doesn't seem obviously terrible in hindsight. If there was a scummy vote on that wagon it it was Glooble's.

Oh wait, here's something weird: joth's vote at #327 was apparently not reflected in the official vote count.

faust, can you confirm that vote count 1.4 was correct?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on January 19, 2019, 01:07:26 pm
Cool cool. Anybody else feel like this Ash plan was kinda bad?

Nope! I'm not saying it was necessarily the optimal play there, but I like it because it's based on legitimate mod-mediated PR usage.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on January 19, 2019, 01:12:31 pm
Haddock replaces Galzria! D1 deadline is extended by 24 hours.[/b]

Hey Fish Man :-) Nice to be in a game with you again!

Not quite another twinclaim, but Haddock is the IRL friend who got me into f.ds mafia several years ago.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on January 19, 2019, 01:26:48 pm
On the optimality or otherwise of picking mcmc for the dayvig shot, I think my "case" on mcmc was that he wasn't playing very much, so given that we had to lynch someone, it was better to pick him than anyone who was active, if everyone felt equally likely to be scum. Several others including Ash said they thought mcmc was town because he wouldn't be so absent if he'd rolled scum, though personally I stayed on that wagon because scum mimicking these long player absences seems like a thing that will happen unless we make that behaviour less attractive.

Either way, as far as the rest of us know so far, Ash's shot wasn't compulsory for him. That means it wasn't a case of picking the least-bad of a set of options, so I agree with the people (e at least?) who're wondering why he didn't shoot a scumread instead of blaming the rest of us for picking mcmc. OTOH, he's explicitly hinting with "Plus what it did for my next shot" at #377 that the game might give him some boost for having used his shot and he apparently has another shot.. so if that appears not to come to pass, we could have actual evidence of scummy behaviour on his part.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on January 19, 2019, 01:28:46 pm
It seems pretty unlikely that a multi shot, or even one-shot, dayvig is town.

Am I misreading this, or are you saying that you think Ash is non-town?

I'm confused because you go on to suggest not lynching him.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Glooble on January 19, 2019, 01:42:05 pm
Hereís my read on the situation having never played a game with a diving before.

The reason for not telling people about it is to have an ďace in the holeĒ, so to speak. Now that itís been used, everyone, town and scum knows to be on the lookout for it. Iím not sure why giving up the element of surprise to shoot someone you donít have a particularly strong read on is a good use of the power.

Shooting me would have made a lot more sense. I would be less suspicious of that. Of course I would be dead, so that wouldnít matter.

Shooting mcmc makes more sense if youíre scum. Heís got this ďthey were gonna lynch him anywayĒ defense, plus it throws suspicion onto me because people are going to wonder why you didnít shoot me if I was your scumread.

Not to mention the fact that you say you had no idea the deadline would be extended, which means... you wanted to remove the only wagon with enough votes on it to be non-random at a point where the town had no time to reach a new consensus?

Thatís super scummy to me.

vote: ash
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Glooble on January 19, 2019, 01:42:40 pm
Diving was meant to be day-vig- Sorry, Iím on my phone.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: faust on January 19, 2019, 01:43:05 pm
faust, can you confirm that vote count 1.4 was correct?

I missed that vote.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: LaLight on January 19, 2019, 02:02:31 pm
vote: ash
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: hypercube on January 19, 2019, 02:11:39 pm
Cool cool. Anybody else feel like this Ash plan was kinda bad?

Nope! I'm not saying it was necessarily the optimal play there, but I like it because it's based on legitimate mod-mediated PR usage.

Can you explain this further? Specifically the "legitimate, mod-mediated" part (how can a PR usage be illegitimate?) and why that means the plan wasn't bad.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mail-mi on January 19, 2019, 02:12:52 pm
I don't think ash is scum.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Glooble on January 19, 2019, 02:16:27 pm
I don't think ash is scum.

Cool. I do. Care to elaborate?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mail-mi on January 19, 2019, 02:25:20 pm
I don't think ash is scum.

Cool. I do. Care to elaborate?

Well a. Cause of setup stuff, (it would be hard to balance a dayvig as scum (granted, if anyone could do it faust could)) and b it just seems like normal ash

Though now that I think about it, all the dayvigs in my memory have been town, and so it would be unique for Faust to do a scum dayvig.... I guess that's all wifom though.

Anyway I don't think we should lynch ash today, but he's not IC by any means. Definitely worth scrutiny on future days
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Glooble on January 19, 2019, 02:28:31 pm
Do we have mod confirmation that this is not multiball? Though I guess ashís behavior makes even less sense as SK.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: jotheonah on January 19, 2019, 02:30:21 pm
It seems pretty unlikely that a multi shot, or even one-shot, dayvig is town.

Am I misreading this, or are you saying that you think Ash is non-town?

I'm confused because you go on to suggest not lynching him.

Sorry. I meant to say "is scum".
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mail-mi on January 19, 2019, 02:31:08 pm
Do we have mod confirmation that this is not multiball? Though I guess ashís behavior makes even less sense as SK.
No
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: jotheonah on January 19, 2019, 02:32:15 pm
Ash, come tell us why your plan isn't as objectively terrible as it looks.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: 2.71828..... on January 19, 2019, 03:07:05 pm
Ash, come tell us why your plan isn't as objectively terrible as it looks.

Because it looks terrible. Scum!Ash can make some pretty bold moves, but so can town!Ash. I think a bad plan for town would look better and end up worse. This is obviously not a win-the-game-D1 plan, but one that should help us in the long run.

I want to see this play out, at least through D2. And I don't really want Ashersky to give any more details on his plan until at least D2. So let's try not lying him
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: 2.71828..... on January 19, 2019, 03:11:22 pm
Ash, come tell us why your plan isn't as objectively terrible as it looks.

Because it looks terrible. Scum!Ash can make some pretty bold moves, but so can town!Ash. I think a bad plan for town would look better and end up worse. This is obviously not a win-the-game-D1 plan, but one that should help us in the long run.

I want to see this play out, at least through D2. And I don't really want Ashersky to give any more details on his plan until at least D2. So let's try not lying* him

*Lynching
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Haddock on January 19, 2019, 03:27:30 pm
Hey guys!
Heck i have much much to catch up with.
I will read up as best as I can in the next 24 hrs. This evening I'm hosting a dinner party so am effectively afk for tonight.

Thoughts to come as soon as I possibly can. Good to be playing again though.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Awaclus on January 19, 2019, 03:47:56 pm
Why is dayvigging the biggest wagon a bad idea? Ash essentially gave town another lynch.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on January 19, 2019, 03:53:47 pm
Nope! I'm not saying it was necessarily the optimal play there, but I like it because it's based on legitimate mod-mediated PR usage.

Can you explain this further? Specifically the "legitimate, mod-mediated" part (how can a PR usage be illegitimate?) and why that means the plan wasn't bad.

I mean his "plan" here is just the use of his PR, in a way the mod planned for and mediated. It isn't something more wacky like I'd kind of been expecting.

In the last RMM I played with him, he presented two plans (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=18935.msg769219#msg769219) and the discussion later concluded that neither were particularly helpful to town. I see in that RMM game I was also totally unimpressed that people were stalling waiting for ash's plan, because as usual he announced that he talked about the existence of a plan long before he intended to reveal it :-P

Wasn't there another game where his plan involved lying to town about his role and claiming he could IC himself where in fact the only "ICing" that he could achieve was that he'd flip town when he died?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: jotheonah on January 19, 2019, 03:59:10 pm
Why is dayvigging the biggest wagon a bad idea? Ash essentially gave town another lynch.

Without giving mcmc the opportunity to claim and without giving us enough time to use that info to make an informed decision. And remember, he wanted us to have even less time. As I said before:

what good is information when we have no time to use it? Especially in a format with a mandatory lynch. Day 1 lynch is always most likely town, so Ashís plan was ďhave twice as many day 1 lynches, kill twice as much townĒ?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: jotheonah on January 19, 2019, 04:03:59 pm
The only reason I'm not voting ashersky is I think he's unlikely to be scum with that power. But that leaves me thinking she's town that's playing really badly, and that doesn't sit super well with me with what I know of ashersky.

It has no bearing at this juncture, but we often discuss having vig shots directed.  But there is thecscum element there that canít be erased. Instead, I used the flow of day and the votes.

Honestly, if I had chosen by myself, Iíd have shot Glooble.

This makes zero sense to me. Ash is saying "I didn't want to have town direct my shot, because then scum would manipulate it." (so far so good). So instead, I let myself be guided by the top wagon, because clearly there's no possibility that scum is manipulating that.

(I am of course being sarcastic. There is every possibility that the largest day one wagon is on town and being manipulated by scum, in fact it's much, much more likely than not.)

Someone convince me that ashersky could be scum without the set up being broken because I badly want to vote for her.

Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: LaLight on January 19, 2019, 04:10:47 pm
The only reason I'm not voting ashersky is I think he's unlikely to be scum with that power. But that leaves me thinking she's town that's playing really badly, and that doesn't sit super well with me with what I know of ashersky.

It has no bearing at this juncture, but we often discuss having vig shots directed.  But there is thecscum element there that canít be erased. Instead, I used the flow of day and the votes.

Honestly, if I had chosen by myself, Iíd have shot Glooble.

This makes zero sense to me. Ash is saying "I didn't want to have town direct my shot, because then scum would manipulate it." (so far so good). So instead, I let myself be guided by the top wagon, because clearly there's no possibility that scum is manipulating that.

(I am of course being sarcastic. There is every possibility that the largest day one wagon is on town and being manipulated by scum, in fact it's much, much more likely than not.)

Someone convince me that ashersky could be scum without the set up being broken because I badly want to vote for her.

I played a normal game on another site where scum team had 1 dayvig shot. Also maybe they should forgo the nk now. Or heís a third party. Pick one
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: jotheonah on January 19, 2019, 04:31:17 pm
The only reason I'm not voting ashersky is I think he's unlikely to be scum with that power. But that leaves me thinking she's town that's playing really badly, and that doesn't sit super well with me with what I know of ashersky.

It has no bearing at this juncture, but we often discuss having vig shots directed.  But there is thecscum element there that canít be erased. Instead, I used the flow of day and the votes.

Honestly, if I had chosen by myself, Iíd have shot Glooble.

This makes zero sense to me. Ash is saying "I didn't want to have town direct my shot, because then scum would manipulate it." (so far so good). So instead, I let myself be guided by the top wagon, because clearly there's no possibility that scum is manipulating that.

(I am of course being sarcastic. There is every possibility that the largest day one wagon is on town and being manipulated by scum, in fact it's much, much more likely than not.)

Someone convince me that ashersky could be scum without the set up being broken because I badly want to vote for her.

I played a normal game on another site where scum team had 1 dayvig shot. Also maybe they should forgo the nk now. Or heís a third party. Pick one

Good enough for me. vote: ash
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on January 19, 2019, 04:42:51 pm
So, hereís what I donít get... Why did Ashersky kill mcmc when she did? Especially when she didnít think she was scum? Itís seems pretty anti-town to choose the only marginally largest wagon with a full day left to talk before DL and shoot before letting her claim or allowing more votes to coalesce before the kill. Especially if she really thought Glooble was more scummy.

Iím not trying to be dense (Iím still kinda new at this), so it would help if someone could explain to me how that shot at this time helps town.

Hetnys, in the books, is Radchaii but is also not regally on the right side of things and end up being held hostage by Breq (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancillary_Sword).
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on January 19, 2019, 04:45:03 pm
Do we have mod confirmation that this is not multiball? Though I guess ashís behavior makes even less sense as SK.

Can you tell me what this means? Whatís multiball?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Glooble on January 19, 2019, 04:55:53 pm
Do we have mod confirmation that this is not multiball? Though I guess ashís behavior makes even less sense as SK.

Can you tell me what this means? Whatís multiball?

SK is serial killer, a scum-aligned player who wins on their own. Multiball just means more than one scum faction.

Trouble is if ash is a serial killer sheís playing even worse than if sheís town. Unless sheís a serial killer who can only kill during the day which... seems like a very poorly designed role.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: DatSwan on January 19, 2019, 05:11:24 pm
So, hereís what I donít get... Why did Ashersky kill mcmc when she did? Especially when she didnít think she was scum? Itís seems pretty anti-town to choose the only marginally largest wagon with a full day left to talk before DL and shoot before letting her claim or allowing more votes to coalesce before the kill. Especially if she really thought Glooble was more scummy.

Iím not trying to be dense (Iím still kinda new at this), so it would help if someone could explain to me how that shot at this time helps town.

Hetnys, in the books, is Radchaii but is also not regally on the right side of things and end up being held hostage by Breq (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancillary_Sword).

I am assuming there is a modifier on ashes role where ďthey have to shoot or X happensĒ.... prettty much bc i agree with you that thier actions donít make a ton of sense as skum. Draws way too much attention.

Unvote
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: DatSwan on January 19, 2019, 05:25:31 pm
Actually to that point I guess it could be a negative modifier as skum like LL pointes our. I need to catch up since the shot.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: faust on January 19, 2019, 05:56:16 pm
Day 1 Final Vote Count

Robz888 (1): Haddock
hypercube (1): Robz888
DatSwan (1): Awaclus
ashersky (5): DatSwan, WestCoastDidds, Glooble, LaLight, jotheonah
jotheonah (2): mail-mi, 2.71828.....
2.71828..... (1): hypercube

Not Voting (2): ashersky, SpaceAnemone

With 13 alive, it took 7 to lynch.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mail-mi on January 19, 2019, 05:58:38 pm
Oh no
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Night 1)
Post by: faust on January 19, 2019, 06:01:37 pm
ashersky has been lynched. She did not die. Day 1 ends now. Night 1 starts and lasts at least until January 21, 2019, 06:00:00 pm. Night actions are due within 48 hours.

Thread locked!
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: faust on January 22, 2019, 01:05:24 am
Tensions were running high on Athoek Statin after the attack on Mercy of Kalr. Breq knew she would have to step very carefully here, and now that she was a fleet captain without a ship, her authority was eroded before she even started her mission.

The next morning, a message came through all of the official channels: jotheonah is an enemy of the Radch! Any sighting of her is to be reported immediately.


Noone died tonight. jotheonah takes one vote less to lynch today.

Day 2 begins!

Vote Count 2.0

Not Voting (13): SpaceAnemone, jotheonah, LaLight, DatSwan, mail-mi, Awaclus, 2.71828....., WestCoastDidds, Robz888, hypercube, ashersky, Galzria, Glooble

WIth 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch. Day 1 ends on January 29, 2019, 01:00:00 am.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: ashersky on January 22, 2019, 01:14:54 am
All things considered, not bad.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: ashersky on January 22, 2019, 01:17:51 am
Also, no shot today.

Im also available to actually interact with folks regarding day 1, unless another quick lynch is planned?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: ashersky on January 22, 2019, 01:18:54 am
(Yes, thatís disingenuous of me to say. I know.)
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: 2.71828..... on January 22, 2019, 01:20:09 am
I don't plan on quick lynching anyone today.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: 2.71828..... on January 22, 2019, 01:22:41 am
Also, looking on the ashersky wagon for scum today. It was such an easy place for scum to throw a vote down
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: ashersky on January 22, 2019, 01:24:24 am
This was the big plan?

Never said it was a big plan previous to executing it. (Pun intended.)

I think this and many other posts focused on my ďplanĒ are a big reason there is so much perceived negative about what I did. Everyoneís expectations are their own. I didnít even try to raise them at all.

I do hope we can just end the whole ash has to have a plan trope.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: ashersky on January 22, 2019, 01:27:24 am
As for why my plan for using my power wasnít bad...

I donít think I explained well before. I always planned on largest wagon near dayís end to give town a second Lynch. I thought about midday, but the day never did get going so more data points made sense to me.

My shot was crowdsourced but without the crowd knowing, so they couldnít exert any purposeful influence. Thatís what I wanted.

You can say thatís an easy cover for a scum shot, but it is also pretty terrible for me if Iím third party. Way more important targets, for one.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: 2.71828..... on January 22, 2019, 01:36:57 am
Also, I assume stuff happened last night (no NK, jotheonah is hated, and that's just the public information). Anyone want to share with the group or is this going to be another RMM where it is partial claims until D4 or so before we mass claim?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: 2.71828..... on January 22, 2019, 01:42:42 am
Also, thinking more about ashersky and what we know about his role: being forced to publicly shoot someone is just so bad for scum. Being forced to publicly shoot someone makes for an interesting position for town. I am fairly confident that Ash is town, not lynching today.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: LaLight on January 22, 2019, 02:07:23 am
Also, thinking more about ashersky and what we know about his role: being forced to publicly shoot someone is just so bad for scum. Being forced to publicly shoot someone makes for an interesting position for town. I am fairly confident that Ash is town, not lynching today.

How do you know he was being forced?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: LaLight on January 22, 2019, 02:07:45 am
in other words, I am here, this neverending LyLo ended and I am willing to participate
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: LaLight on January 22, 2019, 02:08:43 am
let's say, scum are given 1-shot dayvig. They can either be silent about it, keep it to themselves and try to use it in LyLo, or they can use it D1 to get towncred
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: LaLight on January 22, 2019, 02:09:06 am
I will also reread today, I'll try
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: 2.71828..... on January 22, 2019, 02:11:07 am
"forced" as in if you are going to use the shot you have to do it publicly.  And we all know that it is anti-town to have a PR and not use it.

Technically, he probably could have just not shot. I don't know
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: LaLight on January 22, 2019, 02:19:30 am
"forced" as in if you are going to use the shot you have to do it publicly.  And we all know that it is anti-town to have a PR and not use it.

Technically, he probably could have just not shot. I don't know

What if he is not forced to do it in thread? He does it silently in the QT and then types anything in-thread and that's it
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: 2.71828..... on January 22, 2019, 02:32:06 am
"forced" as in if you are going to use the shot you have to do it publicly.  And we all know that it is anti-town to have a PR and not use it.

Technically, he probably could have just not shot. I don't know

What if he is not forced to do it in thread? He does it silently in the QT and then types anything in-thread and that's it

That seems like a stretch
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: LaLight on January 22, 2019, 02:40:14 am
"forced" as in if you are going to use the shot you have to do it publicly.  And we all know that it is anti-town to have a PR and not use it.

Technically, he probably could have just not shot. I don't know

What if he is not forced to do it in thread? He does it silently in the QT and then types anything in-thread and that's it

That seems like a stretch

yeah, I am just thinking of possibilities
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Awaclus on January 22, 2019, 03:21:37 am
"forced" as in if you are going to use the shot you have to do it publicly.  And we all know that it is anti-town to have a PR and not use it.

Technically, he probably could have just not shot. I don't know

What if he is not forced to do it in thread? He does it silently in the QT and then types anything in-thread and that's it

That seems like a stretch

He could also do it silently in the QT and not even have to type anything in-thread. We don't know for sure if him posting the dayvig command in the thread even did anything at all.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: ashersky on January 22, 2019, 03:39:35 am
let's say, scum are given 1-shot dayvig. They can either be silent about it, keep it to themselves and try to use it in LyLo, or they can use it D1 to get towncred

Scum with a free day kill definitely use it to win, a la double lynch in Bankers. It would be terrible usage to just kill someone on D1.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: DatSwan on January 22, 2019, 05:38:09 am
Also, no shot today.

Im also available to actually interact with folks regarding day 1, unless another quick lynch is planned?

why did you have to shoot on day one?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: DatSwan on January 22, 2019, 05:39:03 am
previous is an assumptions that you "had to" based on your previous post
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: DatSwan on January 22, 2019, 05:41:37 am
Also, thinking more about ashersky and what we know about his role: being forced to publicly shoot someone is just so bad for scum. Being forced to publicly shoot someone makes for an interesting position for town. I am fairly confident that Ash is town, not lynching today.

Why? this is an issue that will be brought up throughout the game and used against town the whole time. it doesn't matter if they are town or skum to a sense at this point.... best case scenario what- they have another shot to fire? they can hide that as skum, get lucky as town, or be lying all together. There is def value in lynching ash today, you dismissing is asinine.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: DatSwan on January 22, 2019, 05:42:46 am
"forced" as in if you are going to use the shot you have to do it publicly.  And we all know that it is anti-town to have a PR and not use it.

Technically, he probably could have just not shot. I don't know

What if he is not forced to do it in thread? He does it silently in the QT and then types anything in-thread and that's it

That seems like a stretch

He could also do it silently in the QT and not even have to type anything in-thread. We don't know for sure if him posting the dayvig command in the thread even did anything at all.

he could also not do it silently in QT
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: DatSwan on January 22, 2019, 05:48:10 am
"forced" as in if you are going to use the shot you have to do it publicly.  And we all know that it is anti-town to have a PR and not use it.

Technically, he probably could have just not shot. I don't know

What if he is not forced to do it in thread? He does it silently in the QT and then types anything in-thread and that's it

That seems like a stretch

How is that a stretch? "You have a day vig. You must post it publicly for it to take effect" combine that with ash supposedly feeling the need to shoot and then living through a lynch.. that kind of screams "Hey I am faust and I made this game" to me.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Haddock on January 22, 2019, 05:50:11 am
Here's a post I attempted to make while I was reading up the other day.  By the time I pressed post the thread was locked - I didn't know cos I was only halfway through the reread:

"OK so I'm wAY not caught up yet. And am also fairly drunk. However.

Immediate thoughts so far.

Nope I'm just trying to create conversation. I know why I'm voting for him (the main reason is wagon placement as explained) but I'm wondering why e is voting for him

A better way to create conversation would be to explain why you aren't scum.
Jesus christ
vote: awaclus

I am afraid of people voting for me for very pro-town reasons which will become clear if the wagon on me reaches that point.

There's some lexical ambiguity here. Are you saying you are afraid for reasons which will become clear or people are voting for you for reasons that will become clear?

Itís also a very nothing statement, especially in RMM. I mean, voting for a town PR is bad, so we can all say the same thing. Seems like an empty chaff discharge to me.
Strongly disagree. I read this as a clear indication that her role is something to do with stuff-happening-linked-to-how-many-votes-she-has. Which is loosely a very soft claim. Which we might decide is a bad play. But is definitely a vaguely towny thing to do.


Also, for the record, hating on ashersky plans is just a hipster contrarianism thing to do. As Awaclus points out subconsciously, the efficacy of ashersky plans notwithstanding, the airing of, discussion of, and sometimes demolishing of ashersky plans is always pro-town. And generally they are pro-town regardless of my own alignment.

If you want to complain about ashersky plans, the correct way is to say it has zero bearing on my alignment so I deserve no town points for them. Unfortunately, I often do get scum points if I donít have one, so partly this is all your fault.

Separate to this, using waiting for the plan as an excuse to not otherwise engage is not an acceptable action.

One could argue if your plans are generally Pro-Town regardless of alignment, then it is skummy to make town wait to hear said plan.

Just saying - you know a plan is going to have an effect on the skum hunting (inevitable and NAI)... but withholding it after stating it exists doesn't really make sense. It is still going to have the unwanted effect of dialing back skum hunting, while simultaneously lessening the amount of time we all have to discuss the plan prior to the day ending.

In the few games I have played with you, I def give you the credit for being a crafty minx and all, but this doesn't really make a ton of sense.
And then back that up with the girl (doing Gooble's thing) bringing it up in the first place, followed by being the one accusing people of stalling... kind of reeks of skum sauce.


Vote: Ashes
Reading this I felt that you were conflating the discussion of ash's claim that she has a plan with discussion of the actual plan itself. Whether or not it exists. And it felt intentional. And either dumb or scummy. But I can't articulate what I mean very well right now. Hopefully it's clear.

Swan: I think ďnot wanting to lynch xĒ and ďnot wanting to lynch x D1Ē are very different prospects. I donít think the occasional day 1 pass compromises the integrity of the game. Itís similar (in terms of the affect on the game) to holding off on a d1 lynch of a very scummy player who claimed a PR. You can always lynch them the next day.

Anyway, vote: ashersky. Swanís making sense here and ashís response really rubbed me the wrong way.

PS: iíll hammer Glooble if it comes to it, fwiw.
This is hedgey af.

I hate the wagon on Glooble, shame on all of you. For one thing, I just don't like to lynch new and returning players Day 1 unless there's a good reason (sends the wrong message!). But anyway it makes perfect sense for Glooble, who doesn't know ash plans are a typical thing, to really focus on this, as any alignment.

Alright, thatís fair.

vote: mcmc because one post in 3+ days seems out of character

Were all the votes on Glooble just because of his attitude to Ash's plan, though? Yours wasn't very well-explained, and just singled him out as the most productive place your vote could be, which isn't very enlightening for the rest of us. hyper's vote is the one that appeared to be explicitly because Glooble was promoting stalling while waiting for Ash. LL's was totally unexplained. So I'm not sure quite what your "that's fair" comment is agreeing with in Robz's statement.

I also don't feel the hyper wagon, because I approve of setup-reading, and think it's something an analytical player is quite likely to do. Am I right in remembering that hyper leans that sort of way?

I think a pressure vote on mcmc isn't a terrible thing right now. Vote: mcmc

Sorry, Space, I was in a hurry and not terribly inspired, but didn't want to keep not having a vote anywhere.  You are correct that it was not very helpful.

I voted for Glooble because in the Mail-mi, Hyper, Joth, Glooble conversations he was coming off to me as the most defensive. The plan or not thing wasn't terribly interesting, although I agree with DatSwan that announcing a plan but not presenting one is a rather distracting move and in light of how much time we spent talking about it for naught, that seems right. So, Asher isn't looking so good in my book even if she always does this. (As you correctly point out, I don't have a lot of experience with her)

As for why I changed my vote from Robz's comment, I had sympathy for the we shouldn't recruit players to return and then lynch them for their trouble right out of the gate. Although in fairness, the vote was more for seeing how he responds to pressure than it was about a lynch. (The answer to that is that I find him defensive, but not flailing.)

I am still of the opinion that Mcmc is skeevy for just not playing at all. And if she's not scum, I am quite certain that at the very least, she will not be missed.

Oh yeah....the 4 am (3 am for me) Saturday deadline. I am most definitely not around at that time. So, perhaps we think of Friday as the deadline for practical purposes. Or, I will at least.

DatSwan, how has Australia been? When will you get on the monster flight home and be out of commission for many hours?
This is the last post I've got to so far and I haven't yet processed it.  There's a lot going on there. Fairly certain I'll have things to say about this post in particular tomorrow."



Since that post I did some catching up overnight and had the following more thoughts:
"
I hate the wagon on Glooble, shame on all of you. For one thing, I just don't like to lynch new and returning players Day 1 unless there's a good reason (sends the wrong message!). But anyway it makes perfect sense for Glooble, who doesn't know ash plans are a typical thing, to really focus on this, as any alignment.

Alright, thatís fair.

vote: mcmc because one post in 3+ days seems out of character

Were all the votes on Glooble just because of his attitude to Ash's plan, though? Yours wasn't very well-explained, and just singled him out as the most productive place your vote could be, which isn't very enlightening for the rest of us. hyper's vote is the one that appeared to be explicitly because Glooble was promoting stalling while waiting for Ash. LL's was totally unexplained. So I'm not sure quite what your "that's fair" comment is agreeing with in Robz's statement.

I also don't feel the hyper wagon, because I approve of setup-reading, and think it's something an analytical player is quite likely to do. Am I right in remembering that hyper leans that sort of way?

I think a pressure vote on mcmc isn't a terrible thing right now. Vote: mcmc

Sorry, Space, I was in a hurry and not terribly inspired, but didn't want to keep not having a vote anywhere. You are correct that it was not very helpful.

I voted for Glooble because in the Mail-mi, Hyper, Joth, Glooble conversations he was coming off to me as the most defensive. The plan or not thing wasn't terribly interesting, although I agree with DatSwan that announcing a plan but not presenting one is a rather distracting move and in light of how much time we spent talking about it for naught, that seems right. So, Asher isn't looking so good in my book even if she always does this. (As you correctly point out, I don't have a lot of experience with her)

As for why I changed my vote from Robz's comment, I had sympathy for the we shouldn't recruit players to return and then lynch them for their trouble right out of the gate. Although in fairness, the vote was more for seeing how he responds to pressure than it was about a lynch. (The answer to that is that I find him defensive, but not flailing.)

I am still of the opinion that Mcmc is skeevy for just not playing at all. And if she's not scum, I am quite certain that at the very least, she will not be missed.

Oh yeah....the 4 am (3 am for me) Saturday deadline. I am most definitely not around at that time. So, perhaps we think of Friday as the deadline for practical purposes. Or, I will at least.

DatSwan, how has Australia been? When will you get on the monster flight home and be out of commission for many hours?
This is the last post I've got to so far and I haven't yet processed it. There's a lot going on there. Fairly certain I'll have things to say about this post in particular tomorrow.


Yeah I disagree with a lot of stuff in this post. I haven't had defensive vibes off Glooble at all, and this feels like throwing shade for no good reason.
I also completely disagree with the comment about ash's plan. The claim being made is that ash announcing a plan induces discussion, which is generally protown. Whether or not you agree with that thesis, WestCoastDidds is completely missing the point here.


Quote from mail-mi:
"1. SpaceAnemone - is doing regular SpaceAnemone things, from what I remember. Slight town read.
2. jotheonah - Still seems a little too flippant. Scum read
3. LaLight - Um... don't remember anything in particular right now, null read
4. DatSwan - same as above, though I suppose if everyone decided to sheep Awaclus I could join
5. mail-mi - is me
6. Awaclus - is Awaclus. As always, slight scum read
7. 2.71828..... - seems to be good. Wouldn't prefer to lynch today
8. WestCoastDidds - seems townie to me, wouldn't prefer to lynch
9. Robz888 - is in robz's d1 laze. Eh, null read
10. hypercube - preferred lynch
11. mcmcsalot - lurking, but I agree with e's and ash's posts though. Less sure about lynching him
12. ashersky - null read
13. Galzria - Lurking, but is a vet. Would also lynch him, probably over mcmc
14. Glooble - want to give him a d1 pass, but if everyone wants to lynch him I will"

This is a good readslist, except the read on Glooble seems super hedgey. And I'm townreading Glooble.
ohterwise I largely agree.

Ah except on hypercube. hypercube reads towny to me. Also I feel like the case on jotheonah is stronger than just "too flippant". More on that later.


Awaclus:
"Quote from: mcmcsalot on January 17, 2019, 10:22:09 pm
whats the swan case? he feels less swany this game but not sure what that means alignment wise

What isn't the swan case?"

Guh vote: Awaclus


jotheonah:
"Iím going to go ahead and say it: I strongly dislike the cube wagon. Everything about it feels scummy and bad. Iím going to move my vote to vote: mcmc. Not because of lurking, because of the posting sheís done since she stopped lurking.

I think describing the hypercube wagon as stalled while hypercube was the leading wagon, after saying she just caught up, is a scumslip. Someone who just caught up wouldnít make that mistake. Someone who was reading along and not posting and decided to make an appearance when the heat started getting on them might.

I know that when Iím scum itís hard to get myself to actually reread since Iím not actually looking for information.

Even if the mistake isnít a scum slip, ďsorry Iíve been lurking, Iím going to reread and conclude that the best lynch happens to also be the person with the most votes on her alreadyĒ doesnít look great on its own."
This is one of the towniest posts jotheonah has made, though I disagree with the central point re mcmc. "Just caught up" might well mean "I am making this post as I am partway through catching up.". That's how I catch up, anyway. Often make posts while halfway through a read-up.



Oh and then mcmc dies, jeez fine. Well I was right about jotheonah being wrong, at least.


And then end of day. OK..."
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Haddock on January 22, 2019, 05:52:32 am
Then I had one more thought which I kept note of to be posted once I could post:

"OK so I wasn't able to compile jotheonah quotes while the thread was locked. But please everyone read through jotheonah and then come back and recognise that she's been scummayyyyy.

She has been very twitchy and defensive, hugely OMGUSsy, and not particularly contributive. Also has some reads that I think are really ugly, throwing shade at towny folks for not-good reasons."

vote: jotheonah

And now to today's business.

Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Glooble on January 22, 2019, 05:53:49 am
The lack of a night kill makes ash look worse to me. Not getting a night kill the night they used it would be a way to balance giving scum a day shot.

Can we talk about the fact that five people had 7 votes? Ash, weíre you also secretly hated Day 1? If someone on the ash wagon has a secret double or triple vote I guess that would explain it as well.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: LaLight on January 22, 2019, 05:56:23 am
The lack of a night kill makes ash look worse to me. Not getting a night kill the night they used it would be a way to balance giving scum a day shot.

Can we talk about the fact that five people had 7 votes? Ash, weíre you also secretly hated Day 1? If someone on the ash wagon has a secret double or triple vote I guess that would explain it as well.

We had a plurality lynch, we didn't have 7 votes
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: DatSwan on January 22, 2019, 05:59:18 am
The lack of a night kill makes ash look worse to me. Not getting a night kill the night they used it would be a way to balance giving scum a day shot.

Can we talk about the fact that five people had 7 votes? Ash, weíre you also secretly hated Day 1? If someone on the ash wagon has a secret double or triple vote I guess that would explain it as well.

We had a plurality lynch, we didn't have 7 votes

? what the day ended a more than a day ahead of schedule am I wrong?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Haddock on January 22, 2019, 06:00:22 am
The lack of a night kill makes ash look worse to me. Not getting a night kill the night they used it would be a way to balance giving scum a day shot.

Can we talk about the fact that five people had 7 votes? Ash, weíre you also secretly hated Day 1? If someone on the ash wagon has a secret double or triple vote I guess that would explain it as well.
I think trying to WIFOM the setup is a bad idea.  That's re ash's power and the NK.

The 5 people having 7 votes thing is worth discussing, I think it makes people on the wagon scummier.

The lack of a night kill makes ash look worse to me. Not getting a night kill the night they used it would be a way to balance giving scum a day shot.

Can we talk about the fact that five people had 7 votes? Ash, weíre you also secretly hated Day 1? If someone on the ash wagon has a secret double or triple vote I guess that would explain it as well.

We had a plurality lynch, we didn't have 7 votes

We were 2 days before deadline.  It wasn't a plurality lynch.



I think ash's use of power is null-to-very-slightly-town.   As in, the behaviour itself was moderately-strongly-towny, but because it's ash and ash is capable of all sorts of things as scum, it's only ever-so-slightly-towny.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: DatSwan on January 22, 2019, 06:03:56 am
A quick move was all it took, and the ship carrying the Lord of the Radch's emissary went up in flames.

mcmcsalot has been killed! She was Mercy of Kalr, the Radch-aligned Fixed Modified Multi-Motion Dectector!

Haddock replaces Galzria! D1 deadline is extended by 24 hours.


Vote Count 1.5

Robz888 (1): Haddock
hypercube (1): Robz888
DatSwan (1): Awaclus
ashersky (2): DatSwan, jotheonah
jotheonah (2): LaLight, 2.71828.....
Haddock (2): mail-mi, WestCoastDidds

Not Voting (4): ashersky, SpaceAnemone, hypercube, Glooble

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch. Day 1 ends on January 21, 2019, 04:00:00 am.
That is the end of day vote count stating that day ends on the 21st. It ended prior to that. 
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: LaLight on January 22, 2019, 06:08:17 am
The lack of a night kill makes ash look worse to me. Not getting a night kill the night they used it would be a way to balance giving scum a day shot.

Can we talk about the fact that five people had 7 votes? Ash, weíre you also secretly hated Day 1? If someone on the ash wagon has a secret double or triple vote I guess that would explain it as well.

We had a plurality lynch, we didn't have 7 votes

? what the day ended a more than a day ahead of schedule am I wrong?

what.

ok, i will return when I reread, wtf
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Glooble on January 22, 2019, 06:18:26 am
Is multi-voter more often a scum power or a town power? Of course with a 2-vote discrepancy we could have one of each.

If joth is a scum with 2 votes and ash is town, joth being the final vote on the wagon makes sense. Drop the hammer before she can defend herself.

On the other hand, Datswan who cast the initial vote tried to unvote but too late.Three possibilities stick out to me- Datswan is the double-voter, is scum, knew the lynch had already gone through and jumped off the wagon to give herself cover, Datswan is the double-voter, is town, hopped off the wagon when it became L-1, but didnít know about the second double vote ( or ash being hated) or three DatSwan has no idea about the voting shenanigans and just unvoted for the reasons she stated.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Glooble on January 22, 2019, 06:26:48 am
One more thought- is it fair to assume the person with the extra botebknow they have an extra vote? A double voter who wasnít told their vote counts twice sounds like it would qualify as a ďbastardĒ role, yes?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: 2.71828..... on January 22, 2019, 07:03:20 am
Manipulation of votes is like 99% a scum power, and yeah, people who are able to manipulate votes will be told they are manipulating votes or else it would be bastard. That being said, person X may manipulate person Y's vote without person Y knowing and that would be fine. (All opinions of course)
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: 2.71828..... on January 22, 2019, 07:06:22 am
Also, Datswan unvoting feels very town to me,

There is also the chance that the vig shot is a trade off for being hated.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: 2.71828..... on January 22, 2019, 07:07:18 am
Also, Datswan unvoting feels very town to me,

At the end of D1, that is.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on January 22, 2019, 07:18:48 am
A couple things.

1) we kind of breezed past ashís flavor claim, but isnít Hetnys a bad guy? Hetnys is Breqís subordinate and goes turncoat to work for Aanander.

2) I donít think weíre dealing with a double vote. I think weíre dealing with ash being hated (or one of each). So ash has at least three powers: daykill, lynchproof, and hated. You know who. Gets big piles of powers? A serial killer.

3) I donít want to force anyone to claim, but my power could help explain the lack of a nightkill iff LaLight is bulletproof or was targeted with protection.

4) FYI my hatedness today is not part of my role. So it has been inflicted on me. Not super-surprising since apparently I have ďtodayís mislynchĒ written all over me.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: ashersky on January 22, 2019, 07:22:21 am
Also, no shot today.

Im also available to actually interact with folks regarding day 1, unless another quick lynch is planned?

why did you have to shoot on day one?

Because I felt there was a very good chance that I could die N1 (see every game since I returned from my long hiatus).

It was not compulsory (as in the role modifier).
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: ashersky on January 22, 2019, 07:23:31 am
Also, nice speculation by all on the odd wagon size (no sarcasm here).  But I took only 5 votes to lynch.

As for why I didn't die -- no idea.  Assuming someone protected me from the NK as I believe I'm scum's top NK priority.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: ashersky on January 22, 2019, 07:24:10 am
More to the point, why didn't I die when I was lynched?  That was a big surprise to me. 

I actually think it might have had something to do with shooting mcmc?  He said some cryptic stuff he couldn't explain before the flip.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on January 22, 2019, 07:24:52 am
Ironic that ash keeps talking about giving the town an extra lynch day 1 (as if thatís protown) But she has in fact denied us a day one lynch by not dying.

Iím tempted to ask ash to fullclaim. Iím also tempted to go ahead and try to finish what we started day one.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: ashersky on January 22, 2019, 07:25:19 am
A quick move was all it took, and the ship carrying the Lord of the Radch's emissary went up in flames.

mcmcsalot has been killed! She was Mercy of Kalr, the Radch-aligned Fixed Modified Multi-Motion Dectector!

Haddock replaces Galzria! D1 deadline is extended by 24 hours.


Vote Count 1.5

Robz888 (1): Haddock
hypercube (1): Robz888
DatSwan (1): Awaclus
ashersky (2): DatSwan, jotheonah
jotheonah (2): LaLight, 2.71828.....
Haddock (2): mail-mi, WestCoastDidds

Not Voting (4): ashersky, SpaceAnemone, hypercube, Glooble

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch. Day 1 ends on January 21, 2019, 04:00:00 am.

Fixed, modified.  What do we think those mean in the context of faust?  Has he defined them in his setup thread?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on January 22, 2019, 07:26:48 am
Good morning, folks!

Hi Haddock....in your giant post you quoted me and said that in regard to plan discussions that I had completely missed the point. So, uhm, yeah....that is accurate. Iím newish to the game (this is my 5th game) and somethingís that are obvious to others take me awhile to work out. I think I miss the point of posts quite a bit at first, but improve with time....or at least that is my hope.

I am still confused about how Asher got lynched with only 5 votes so far from the deadline. Is there a power that can end the day, and then itís the plurality vote? Is that more likely than two people having an extra vote? And did Asherís shot give her immunity?

Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: ashersky on January 22, 2019, 07:28:50 am
Ironic that ash keeps talking about giving the town an extra lynch day 1 (as if thatís protown) But she has in fact denied us a day one lynch by not dying.

Iím tempted to ask ash to fullclaim. Iím also tempted to go ahead and try to finish what we started day one.

Well, I didn't plan on me being the extra lynch, nor did I know I wouldn't die.

The extra lynch should have been whomever was #2 on the lynch list -- so one of the folks with two votes.  Or it looks like the new Galzria would have been coming after you.

Regardless of my not dying, we did have two "lynches" on D1.  We just didn't get two flips.

As for full claiming, not a good idea.  Remaining number of shots and when/how I can use them is what scum wants to know.  Scum also wants to lynch me.

I've claimed what needs to be known (through words or actions).  Hetnys, sometimes dayvig, sometimes hated.  Everything else is not related to my role (not dying from lynch, surviving last night).
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on January 22, 2019, 07:29:12 am
Good morning, folks!

Hi Haddock....in your giant post you quoted me and said that in regard to plan discussions that I had completely missed the point. So, uhm, yeah....that is accurate. Iím newish to the game (this is my 5th game) and somethingís that are obvious to others take me awhile to work out. I think I miss the point of posts quite a bit at first, but improve with time....or at least that is my hope.

I am still confused about how Asher got lynched with only 5 votes so far from the deadline. Is there a power that can end the day, and then itís the plurality vote? Is that more likely than two people having an extra vote? And did Asherís shot give her immunity?

There is a power called Governor that ends the day, though Iíve never seen it combined with a plurality lynch. Usually it just causes a no lynch. A power like that seems very very strong, basically dayvig and end the day but you can only target the leading wagon. I can maybe see it as a once per game.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: ashersky on January 22, 2019, 07:29:43 am
Good morning, folks!

Hi Haddock....in your giant post you quoted me and said that in regard to plan discussions that I had completely missed the point. So, uhm, yeah....that is accurate. Iím newish to the game (this is my 5th game) and somethingís that are obvious to others take me awhile to work out. I think I miss the point of posts quite a bit at first, but improve with time....or at least that is my hope.

I am still confused about how Asher got lynched with only 5 votes so far from the deadline. Is there a power that can end the day, and then itís the plurality vote? Is that more likely than two people having an extra vote? And did Asherís shot give her immunity?

You may have missed it, but I claimed the 5 vote lynch part.  I two took less votes to lynch than normal.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on January 22, 2019, 07:30:46 am
Ironic that ash keeps talking about giving the town an extra lynch day 1 (as if thatís protown) But she has in fact denied us a day one lynch by not dying.

Iím tempted to ask ash to fullclaim. Iím also tempted to go ahead and try to finish what we started day one.

Well, I didn't plan on me being the extra lynch, nor did I know I wouldn't die.

The extra lynch should have been whomever was #2 on the lynch list -- so one of the folks with two votes.  Or it looks like the new Galzria would have been coming after you.

Regardless of my not dying, we did have two "lynches" on D1.  We just didn't get two flips.

As for full claiming, not a good idea.  Remaining number of shots and when/how I can use them is what scum wants to know.  Scum also wants to lynch me.

I've claimed what needs to be known (through words or actions).  Hetnys, sometimes dayvig, sometimes hated.  Everything else is not related to my role (not dying from lynch, surviving last night).

Cool, this is exactly what I expected a serial killer to say.

vote: Ash

Good enough for yesterday, good enough for today.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on January 22, 2019, 07:32:20 am
Ask yourself which is more likely, that ash just happened to fall victim to multiple layers of weirdness, or that at least some of that weirdness is part of a complicated SK role and Ash is lying about her defensive ability because itís scummy.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: ashersky on January 22, 2019, 07:33:37 am
I wish I was an SK here.  MVP win last time out.

It's been a long time since I've played a game with joth, I think.  What I don't remember is if shutdown-ignore everything-confirmation bias joth is scum!joth or town!joth.

As most would know, I'm always happy to get lynched just to say I told you so.  My green flip just proves you wrong and proves me right.

vote: ash
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: ashersky on January 22, 2019, 07:34:16 am
Ask yourself which is more likely, that ash just happened to fall victim to multiple layers of weirdness, or that at least some of that weirdness is part of a complicated SK role and Ash is lying about her defensive ability because itís scummy.

scumslip
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: 2.71828..... on January 22, 2019, 07:34:36 am
Calm down guys.

Ashersky is town
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on January 22, 2019, 07:35:21 am
You may have missed it, but I claimed the 5 vote lynch part.  I two took less votes to lynch than normal.

Definitely missed it, thank you. That was part of your role? 2x hated?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: ashersky on January 22, 2019, 07:36:26 am
Ask yourself which is more likely, that ash just happened to fall victim to multiple layers of weirdness, or that at least some of that weirdness is part of a complicated SK role and Ash is lying about her defensive ability because itís scummy.

scumslip

Let me explain.

You state clearly in here "multiple layers" of weirdness.  No one, not even joth, can argue against that point.

However, there is only one public layer of weirdness known to all -- surviving the lynch.  Any other layers of weirdness would be known only to the perpetrator of the weirdness, such as the scum team that shot me and saw that I survived.  After all, there is a lot of focus on my surviving by joth here.

So, joth, please, what other layers of weirdness can you share with us that no one else knows about?  (Hint: it's where you shot me last night and I didn't die.)
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: ashersky on January 22, 2019, 07:36:52 am
You may have missed it, but I claimed the 5 vote lynch part.  I two took less votes to lynch than normal.

Definitely missed it, thank you. That was part of your role? 2x hated?

Correct.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: 2.71828..... on January 22, 2019, 07:38:16 am
Also, ashersky, I don't think scum shot you last night because they assumed you would get lynched. You know, joth's "let's finish what we started yesterday" post.

I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't at least
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: 2.71828..... on January 22, 2019, 07:38:56 am
Also, speaking of that, vote: jotheonah
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on January 22, 2019, 07:40:58 am
Calm down guys.

Ashersky is town

I like the idea of calming down! The caught us unawares quick lynch when we thought we actually had a whole extra day has made me hesitant to vote at all. But I want to vote for Joth.

E, you say that with authority....how do you know sheís town?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: ashersky on January 22, 2019, 07:41:45 am
Also, ashersky, I don't think scum shot you last night because they assumed you would get lynched. You know, joth's "let's finish what we started yesterday" post.

I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't at least

I guess that's possible.  There's the "ash is an easy enough mislynch" angle.  Even if they actually think I'm 3rd Party, though, seems like it's in their best interest to take a possible non-them kill off the board.

Where's mail-mi?  That "oh no" post at day's end was funny.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on January 22, 2019, 07:43:03 am
You may have missed it, but I claimed the 5 vote lynch part.  I two took less votes to lynch than normal.

Definitely missed it, thank you. That was part of your role? 2x hated?

Correct.

Oof! That is accurate to Hetnys, though. She was kind of awful.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on January 22, 2019, 07:43:39 am
Ask yourself which is more likely, that ash just happened to fall victim to multiple layers of weirdness, or that at least some of that weirdness is part of a complicated SK role and Ash is lying about her defensive ability because itís scummy.

scumslip

1. You didnít die to the lynch
2. You got lynched with 5 votes instead of 7
(3. You had a dayvig and used it in a blatantly antitown way)

Let me explain.

You state clearly in here "multiple layers" of weirdness.  No one, not even joth, can argue against that point.

However, there is only one public layer of weirdness known to all -- surviving the lynch.  Any other layers of weirdness would be known only to the perpetrator of the weirdness, such as the scum team that shot me and saw that I survived.  After all, there is a lot of focus on my surviving by joth here.

So, joth, please, what other layers of weirdness can you share with us that no one else knows about?  (Hint: it's where you shot me last night and I didn't die.)
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: 2.71828..... on January 22, 2019, 07:44:47 am
Calm down guys.

Ashersky is town

I like the idea of calming down! The caught us unawares quick lynch when we thought we actually had a whole extra day has made me hesitant to vote at all. But I want to vote for Joth.

E, you say that with authority....how do you know sheís town?

As a part of my role I have a 1-shot cop. I used it on ashersky. I wanted to let it play out a bit longer, but ashersky self-voting kind of made me claim earlier than I wanted, but I didn't want my investigation to be for nothing with a quick lynch
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on January 22, 2019, 07:44:55 am
You may have missed it, but I claimed the 5 vote lynch part.  I two took less votes to lynch than normal.

Definitely missed it, thank you. That was part of your role? 2x hated?

Correct.

I also missed this. Why not claim it yesterday?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: ashersky on January 22, 2019, 07:45:04 am
It also makes me a liability the closer we get to the endgame, so I will definitely urge my lynch eventually (like, around when it takes four to lynch?).

Unless someone has a +Loved power to send my way.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on January 22, 2019, 07:46:15 am
unvote

I believe the cop claim here.

Unless Ash is a dayvigging lynchproof 2x hated Godfather serially killer, but hats a lot even for faust.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: ashersky on January 22, 2019, 07:46:38 am
You may have missed it, but I claimed the 5 vote lynch part.  I two took less votes to lynch than normal.

Definitely missed it, thank you. That was part of your role? 2x hated?

Correct.

I also missed this. Why not claim it yesterday?

To Awaclus you: why claim it?  No one else was claiming Hated/Loved, even after the discussion started up based on rule wording.  I didn't expect to get lynched, honestly, and I would have claimed if I was around when the votes came flying.

Also, I don't believe you.  I posted about this TWICE before your "multiple layers" scumslip.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: 2.71828..... on January 22, 2019, 07:46:49 am
Or we just lynch scum and not town then x2 hated doesn't come into play
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: ashersky on January 22, 2019, 07:47:08 am
unvote
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on January 22, 2019, 07:49:42 am
It's been a long time since I've played a game with joth, I think.  What I don't remember is if shutdown-ignore everything-confirmation bias joth is scum!joth or town!joth.

Also this is the opposite of shut down ignore everything confirmation bias. All the information Onhad was pointing to you being scum. Remember when you first took the big shot I hated it, but I thought it made you town. LaLight suggested SK and it seemed to me like the cleanest explanation of the facts.

But an SK doesnít have a partner to fake a cop result to clear her, so now the facts have changed.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on January 22, 2019, 07:51:51 am
If all I accomplish today is to set up my new meta that flippant Joth is town Joth Iíll call it a win. I think a lot of people in this town are falling victim to the ďshe annoys me she must be scumĒ fallacy.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on January 22, 2019, 07:56:02 am
One more thought: donít forget voluntary alignment changes are possible. So donít treat Ash an IC on subsequent days.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: 2.71828..... on January 22, 2019, 07:57:36 am
I wouldn't call jotheonah's play flippant. But I understand how self analysis can be very different than external analysis.

I will throw together something that better describes why I am voting jotheonah later when I get the chance.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: ashersky on January 22, 2019, 07:59:44 am
Still waiting for an adequate explanation of your "multiple layers of weirdness" comment.  I saw you buried an answer in a misquote post, but "I didn't see you twice explained why you got lynched early" doesn't really cut it.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on January 22, 2019, 08:06:01 am
Still waiting for an adequate explanation of your "multiple layers of weirdness" comment.  I saw you buried an answer in a misquote post, but "I didn't see you twice explained why you got lynched early" doesn't really cut it.

Nonetheless thatís the answer. I woke up this Leong to more than a page of posts, read through them quickly, didnít see those. So I thought you were claiming that you had no idea why you were lynched and also no idea why you didnít die.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on January 22, 2019, 08:08:19 am
Also, nice speculation by all on the odd wagon size (no sarcasm here).  But I took only 5 votes to lynch.

As for why I didn't die -- no idea.  Assuming someone protected me from the NK as I believe I'm scum's top NK priority.

This claim is as clear as mud. You donít say ďitís part of my roleĒ you donít say ďIím hatedĒ, you say ďI took 5 votes to lynchĒ

Which like... yeah, we know. It did not register as new information.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Haddock on January 22, 2019, 08:16:33 am
I'm still seeing scum!jotheonah here and it's not because she's annoying and/or flippant.  I haven't seen flippant at all really.

It's because she's OMGUSsy, hedgey, over defensive and twitchy. 

I mean, obviously I'm very happy to consider other lynches, but I'm happy where my vote is for now.  Noone else has really given me strong scumvibes.

I believe e's claim re ash being town.



I want to discuss this post:
A couple things.

1) we kind of breezed past ashís flavor claim, but isnít Hetnys a bad guy? Hetnys is Breqís subordinate and goes turncoat to work for Aanander.

2) I donít think weíre dealing with a double vote. I think weíre dealing with ash being hated (or one of each). So ash has at least three powers: daykill, lynchproof, and hated. You know who. Gets big piles of powers? A serial killer.

3) I donít want to force anyone to claim, but my power could help explain the lack of a nightkill iff LaLight is bulletproof or was targeted with protection.

4) FYI my hatedness today is not part of my role. So it has been inflicted on me. Not super-surprising since apparently I have ďtodayís mislynchĒ written all over me.
1) fine, I don't remember the flavour.  WIFOMing flavour seems a bad idea though.

2) Strongly disagree.  Note in particular this post of e's:
There is also the chance that the vig shot is a trade off for being hated.
Which I agree entirely with.  You can't count hated as an "additional power", it would be totally normal to put a negative ability in to counterbalance a strong role.  It doesn't necessarily imply SK.  Indeed quite the opposite, it's hard enough to win as an SK, let alone a doubly-hated SK...


3) no comment.

4) Maybe I missed something from D1 but you made this comment when you had maybe 2 people who had mentioned you as a possible lynch, maybe 2 votes.  This kind of defensiveness just make you look scummier.



Also:

Good morning, folks!

Hi Haddock....in your giant post you quoted me and said that in regard to plan discussions that I had completely missed the point. So, uhm, yeah....that is accurate. Iím newish to the game (this is my 5th game) and somethingís that are obvious to others take me awhile to work out. I think I miss the point of posts quite a bit at first, but improve with time....or at least that is my hope.

I am still confused about how Asher got lynched with only 5 votes so far from the deadline. Is there a power that can end the day, and then itís the plurality vote? Is that more likely than two people having an extra vote? And did Asherís shot give her immunity?

You may have missed it, but I claimed the 5 vote lynch part.  I two took less votes to lynch than normal.
Sorry ash but do you mind quoting where you originally claimed this?  I don't want to trawl the thread for it and I imagine you have a rough idea when you made that claim.




Finally:
Good morning, folks!

Hi Haddock....in your giant post you quoted me and said that in regard to plan discussions that I had completely missed the point. So, uhm, yeah....that is accurate. Iím newish to the game (this is my 5th game) and somethingís that are obvious to others take me awhile to work out. I think I miss the point of posts quite a bit at first, but improve with time....or at least that is my hope.
Okidoke, sorry I didn't know that.  I'm also new to this particular game so wasn't aware that you're a new player.  In light of that I'm much more willing to interpret the original misunderstanding as honest-mistake rather than scummy-feigned-ignorance.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: hypercube on January 22, 2019, 08:42:10 am
I basically completely believe that Ash is town at this point, and I'm definitely leaning towards voting for joth for SK hunting etc..

One thing I wanted to point out is this post when Swan jumps off the Ash wagon:

So, hereís what I donít get... Why did Ashersky kill mcmc when she did? Especially when she didnít think she was scum? Itís seems pretty anti-town to choose the only marginally largest wagon with a full day left to talk before DL and shoot before letting her claim or allowing more votes to coalesce before the kill. Especially if she really thought Glooble was more scummy.

Iím not trying to be dense (Iím still kinda new at this), so it would help if someone could explain to me how that shot at this time helps town.

Hetnys, in the books, is Radchaii but is also not regally on the right side of things and end up being held hostage by Breq (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancillary_Sword).

I am assuming there is a modifier on ashes role where ďthey have to shoot or X happensĒ.... prettty much bc i agree with you that thier actions donít make a ton of sense as skum. Draws way too much attention.

Unvote

It's weird to me since Swan is saying that she agrees with WCD that Ash's actions don't make sense as scum (which I agree with), but in the post that Swan is actually quoting WCD is making the case that Ash is scum. So, it reads to me like Swan was really looking for an excuse to jump off that wagon.

I'm not sure if that means anything (it seemed more important before Ash claimed double-hated), but I figured I'd point it out anyways.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on January 22, 2019, 08:54:04 am
Giant re-read post incoming:

Good idea! Vote: Awaclus

I always find RVS self-votes slightly scummy. It allows you to skip past the question of ďdo I RVS my partner or a townieĒ

I have a feeling, based on flavor, that alignment switching is not going to be voluntary. I suspect Aanander Mianani will have some kind of cult leader mechanic. Could be wrong of course.

Noone's alignment can change without their consent.

Another slight scum point. I think scum is more likely to know this aspect of the setup as theyíre the ones who can make alignment-switches happen. I could be wrong on this, but Iím basing it on flavor.

Man, this is such a crappy wagon. Let's join a different one.

Vote: Galzria

Here Awaclus pops in to get us to stop talking about flavor and time zones and get back to RVS! Which is a little weird, but not especially scummy.

Actually, Vote: mail-mi

While it might sound like pronoun-omgus, I've just realised that I haven't been doing setup stuff at all, so characterizing me as having done so is weird. I've talked about the flavour, because it's something I like, and about timezones because it's something I'm generally conscious of as someone who's not on the American continent.

I haven't really begun posting my thoughts on how the game mechanics and real set-up stuff might go, because the stuff I've thought of doesn't really fit with a anything I'd see as a balanced game.

This was a good point by Space that still sort of holds up.

Vote: Jotheonah

This felt like pouncing on mail-mi for something that might very well be wrong but was not especially likely to come from scum. (Town needs no help tricking itself into mass claiming.)

I dislike this post from Robz for two reasons. One, I disagree with the premise, suggesting a mass claim is definitely a thing scum will do when they can get away with it, and two, she voted for me!

ah, a day 1 wagon on me. some things never change

vote: mail-mi

Mass claims on day one are always a bad idea.

You're probably right. I guess a better question would be, are there obvious flavor names that would be scum?

This is a two-punch scummy post from mail-mi. One, the "day 1 wagon on her" is 2 votes for unrelated reasons, so not really even much of a wagon at all. Two, the immediate back-down from the claim idea.

Vote: Jotheonah

This felt like pouncing on mail-mi for something that might very well be wrong but was not especially likely to come from scum. (Town needs no help tricking itself into mass claiming.)

When does scum ever actually do this? Scum doesn't need to pounce at this juncture. Scum just needs to wait for a good-looking town wagon and slide onboard.

Well, scum wants to look like they're.scumhunting.

vote: joth

vote: hypercube

This is exactly the position scum wants to be on the wagon. Voting for someone who already has votes, and turning a couple votes into an actual wagon

I know that didn't make much sense, I'm having a hard time putting my thoughts into words. I hope you (meaning the general populus) understands what I'm trying to say

This was part of my case on mail-mi yesterday. Itís an extremely weak case on hypercube and doesnít make a ton of sense as town. But as a gambit to get me off her back by voting for the person who just voted for me, it makes a lot of sense.

Not quoting because itís a bunch of posts, but LaLightís day one entrance is kinda scummy. Especially this part:

ok then

should we just wagon two or more players that are the scummiest every day, so we will have a bit of extra info?

This is a very bad, hilariously bad suggestion given

ď5. If the deadline is hit without a player reaching the majority of votes, the player that would take the least number of additional votes to lynch dies. If there is a tie, a town player dies before a non-town player. Otherwise, who dies is determined randomly.Ē

So LaLightís suggestion is to queue up two lynches at the end of the day to make sure the town player dies. Itís actually so bad I donít think it could come from scum. Town points for LL.

Looks like everyone has posted except ash, mcmc, and gala. Where y'all at?

Here is mail-mi changing the subject to something safe while everyone is talking about her and whether she might be scum.

Nope I'm just trying to create conversation. I know why I'm voting for him (the main reason is wagon placement as explained) but I'm wondering why e is voting for him

A better way to create conversation would be to explain why you aren't scum.

This is inane and maybe a little scummy.

Then thereís a long fight between mail-mi and Awaclus. Not sure what to make of it.

I think continuing to focus on mail-mi so much--something Joth is doing--is somewhat scummy. I've often seen mail-mi make himself into an easy target in games past, perhaps especially when town.

This feels like a partner stepping in to protect. Also notable that this is one of Robzís very few posts so far all game.

1) im implying that making a wagon one vote larger is not neccisarilly always pro town (especially if your meta as skum is to love the bus).

2) Reading just fine. I also do NOT think  that you, malmi, or anyone has done anything to come off as towny this far.

3) You didnít answer my question - instead you avoided it with a random omg is Vote. Another pro town thing tho Iím sure...

4) the last time i had this conversation with you you self hammered yourself for the town loss... so Iím just gonna drop this topic.

1) Making a wagon one vote larger is necessarily always pro town, unless the vote leads to a town lynch.

2) It doesn't matter what you think, it matters what mail-mi thinks about himself and what I think about myself.

3) I didn't answer your question because that was the second time you asked the exact same question and I already answered it in item 2.

4) That self-hammer was way better than having town give away valuable information before ultimately lynching me anyway.

More scummy Awaclus stuff.

Sidenote, there is so much voting for me happening day 1. Scum absolutely gave me hated because they knew Iíd be the easiest mislynch, and itís not twitchy or defensive of me to say so.

This is a long wall of post and Iím only halfway through my reread (#204), but I have to start my workday. So To Be ContinuedÖ

for now, vote: mail-mi

FoS: Awaclus, Robz888

No one else jumps out as super scummy.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: mail-mi on January 22, 2019, 09:03:59 am
Also, ashersky, I don't think scum shot you last night because they assumed you would get lynched. You know, joth's "let's finish what we started yesterday" post.

I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't at least

I guess that's possible.  There's the "ash is an easy enough mislynch" angle.  Even if they actually think I'm 3rd Party, though, seems like it's in their best interest to take a possible non-them kill off the board.

Where's mail-mi?  That "oh no" post at day's end was funny.

Was sleeping, is catching up
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Haddock on January 22, 2019, 09:07:52 am
That's actually not a bad mail-mi case.  I will consider.

Awaclus is being Awaclus, how much have you played with him before?  Nothing he's done so far is out of his nullzone.

As for Robz:

a) I don't like your linking Robz and mail-mi here, it's dangerously early to be suggesting partnerships.
b) I can't remember anything about Robz this game really, which suggests she's been actilurking.  So yes I could get behind that.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: mail-mi on January 22, 2019, 09:12:01 am
I'm on phone right now, so I'll respond to the case on me when I can.

Ash is town, I believe her and e. I don't really like joth's case on her and think it's kinda scummy. Welcome to the game Haddock!
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on January 22, 2019, 10:06:31 am
Rest of my day 1 re-read:

I hate the wagon on Glooble, shame on all of you. For one thing, I just don't like to lynch new and returning players Day 1 unless there's a good reason (sends the wrong message!). But anyway it makes perfect sense for Glooble, who doesn't know ash plans are a typical thing, to really focus on this, as any alignment.

Alright, thatís fair.

vote: mcmc because one post in 3+ days seems out of character

Worth noting that it's WCD who starts the mcmc wagon. And she starts it when there's a sea of actual reads and cases and wagons on the table, which she doesn't really address.

I hate the wagon on Glooble, shame on all of you. For one thing, I just don't like to lynch new and returning players Day 1 unless there's a good reason (sends the wrong message!). But anyway it makes perfect sense for Glooble, who doesn't know ash plans are a typical thing, to really focus on this, as any alignment.

Alright, thatís fair.

vote: mcmc because one post in 3+ days seems out of character

Were all the votes on Glooble just because of his attitude to Ash's plan, though? Yours wasn't very well-explained, and just singled him out as the most productive place your vote could be, which isn't very enlightening for the rest of us. hyper's vote is the one that appeared to be explicitly because Glooble was promoting stalling while waiting for Ash. LL's was totally unexplained. So I'm not sure quite what your "that's fair" comment is agreeing with in Robz's statement.

I also don't feel the hyper wagon, because I approve of setup-reading, and think it's something an analytical player is quite likely to do. Am I right in remembering that hyper leans that sort of way?

I think a pressure vote on mcmc isn't a terrible thing right now. Vote: mcmc

Then Space, immediately after. This vote feels towny to me actually.

On another note, Glooble is reading townier to me on re-read. I think all of her ďscummyĒ plays are pretty easily explained as rusty town coming to a changed meta in a complicated game.

Also, for the record, hating on ashersky plans is just a hipster contrarianism thing to do. As Awaclus points out subconsciously, the efficacy of ashersky plans notwithstanding, the airing of, discussion of, and sometimes demolishing of ashersky plans is always pro-town. And generally they are pro-town regardless of my own alignment.

If you want to complain about ashersky plans, the correct way is to say it has zero bearing on my alignment so I deserve no town points for them. Unfortunately, I often do get scum points if I donít have one, so partly this is all your fault.

Separate to this, using waiting for the plan as an excuse to not otherwise engage is not an acceptable action.


One could argue if your plans are generally Pro-Town regardless of alignment, then it is skummy to make town wait to hear said plan.

Just saying - you know a plan is going to have an effect on the skum hunting (inevitable and NAI)... but withholding it after stating it exists doesn't really make sense. It is still going to have the unwanted effect of dialing back skum hunting, while simultaneously lessening the amount of time we all have to discuss the plan prior to the day ending.

In the few games I have played with you, I def give you the credit for being a crafty minx and all, but this doesn't really make a ton of sense.
And then back that up with the girl (doing Gooble's thing) bringing it up in the first place, followed by being the one accusing people of stalling... kind of reeks of skum sauce.


Vote: Ashes


I know Iím really the pot calling the kettle black for FOSsing ash voters, but this is an interesting place to be on that wagon. DatSwan is (I think) the third ash voter, but after a lot of posts have passed since the first two. So the vote is more significant than it looks. 

The explanation for the vote feels like an excuse or a justification. Like the way you would preface a vote if you know a personís likely to flip town. Scum points for Swan.

Swan: I think ďnot wanting to lynch xĒ and ďnot wanting to lynch x D1Ē are very different prospects. I donít think the occasional day 1 pass compromises the integrity of the game. Itís similar (in terms of the affect on the game) to holding off on a d1 lynch of a very scummy player who claimed a PR. You can always lynch them the next day.

Anyway, vote: ashersky. Swanís making sense here and ashís response really rubbed me the wrong way.

PS: iíll hammer Glooble if it comes to it, fwiw.

LOL and then I vote ash because ďSwanís making senseĒ. Well, I guess everything looks different in the light of a town investigative result.

I continue to get a slight scumread on WCD. She posts infrequently but her posts are lengthy, which could be indicative of newbie scum playing & posting very carefully. But it could also just be newbie town doing that. Her posts feel Ö strategic. idk. something to keep an eye on.

My problem with the mcmc lynch is that lynching a lurker tells us nothing. If she's scum that's fine, but if she's town, we have no wagons to analyze or anything like that.

I strongly disagree with this.

Firstly, it probably tells us something about what other roles are out there. This is more useful for town than for scum, because right now we (probably?) each only have one datapoint to go on to build up a framework of how the game works, and a second point is a 100% improvement. Less so for scum, because they probably already know each other's roles too.

Secondly, we already have wagons to look at, and flips on later days will let us look at people who're voting together or avoiding being on the same wagons. The only downside is that mcmc hasn't voted at all, which is just really bad town play from him. That hinders voting analysis whether or not we flip him now.

Thirdly, if mcmc is lurking this badly, we remove him from the game and leave more active players who give us better wagon analysis, more interactions and more gameplay. Scum isn't going to take him out for us if he's leaving himself as a big unknown, and he's really not a player town wants alive at lylo if he's not someone we can form opinions of... so if we don't have strong scumreads on active players, then mcmc is a great place for a good towny vote to go.

Glooble opposes mcmc lynch, says lurker lynch is low-info. Spaceís reply feels weak to me. 1) knowing one role in a role madness game is actually not a lot of info, 2) lurker lynch wagons are not that useful because everyone can easily defend a policy vote without having to articulate a scum read 3) that would be fine if mcmc were an unknown entity, but we all know her meta and that sheís likely to become more active.

For some reason three people (WCD, cube, and mail-mi) show up to say how townie this slightly scummy post was.

How often does LAL actually hit scum though?

Basically never. Scum!mcmc (hate to say it) doesn't lurk this hard

This is correct. When momsalon rolls scum, he is into the game.

I know ash is town, but this is what drives me crazy about the mcmc shot. Ash herself all but says mcmc is a bad lynch, not likely to flip scum. Letting the town direct your vig shot without telling them theyíre directing it is bad enough, but doing it when you have a townread on the person youíre shooting seems blantantly antitown. I do not regret my votes on ash.

Then mcmc shows up and I jump on her wagon. I am the only person on that wagon who actually expressed a scumread on mcmc based on her play. (and then Glooble sheeps me)

LaLight lurked pretty hard day 1. I donít think itís a scumtell but I think itís worth mentioning.

One thing I've noticed about the game thus far is that people are very willing to defend joth. mail-mi and mcmc use my vote for joth as justification for their votes on me; E moves directly from joth to me after I vote for joth and then her case against me derails the joth wagon for good. I think this points towards joth being town? Certainly I'd think that scum would try to avoid defending their buddies so blatantly, especially since it never seemed super likely that joth would get lynched.

This is a good post. :P

I still think cubeís wagon was scummy and cube has seemed townie.

Then ash shoots a townie and disclaims all responsibility for her actions. Iím not like that upset because obviously I was driving the mcmc lynch at that point and legitimately thought she was scum, but I think itís important to note that ash did not but shot her anyway then blamed the town, which is just obnoxiously poor play.

Well there's that.

Back to vote: joth

Hey mail-mi, what was this about?

In the interest of analysis, the ash wagon, in order:

Also, for the record, hating on ashersky plans is just a hipster contrarianism thing to do. As Awaclus points out subconsciously, the efficacy of ashersky plans notwithstanding, the airing of, discussion of, and sometimes demolishing of ashersky plans is always pro-town. And generally they are pro-town regardless of my own alignment.

If you want to complain about ashersky plans, the correct way is to say it has zero bearing on my alignment so I deserve no town points for them. Unfortunately, I often do get scum points if I donít have one, so partly this is all your fault.

Separate to this, using waiting for the plan as an excuse to not otherwise engage is not an acceptable action.

One could argue if your plans are generally Pro-Town regardless of alignment, then it is skummy to make town wait to hear said plan.

Just saying - you know a plan is going to have an effect on the skum hunting (inevitable and NAI)... but withholding it after stating it exists doesn't really make sense. It is still going to have the unwanted effect of dialing back skum hunting, while simultaneously lessening the amount of time we all have to discuss the plan prior to the day ending.

In the few games I have played with you, I def give you the credit for being a crafty minx and all, but this doesn't really make a ton of sense.
And then back that up with the girl (doing Gooble's thing) bringing it up in the first place, followed by being the one accusing people of stalling... kind of reeks of skum sauce.


Vote: Ashes

(this is the only vote that came before the vig shot and DatSwan apparently doesnít log on again until after the hammer)

But actually. Vote: ashersky

Convince me you aren't a SK or something like that

Ugh! Why kill mcmc? We werenít that close to the deadline so it doesnít make any sense to say the votes were there. And now we still need to lupynch someone?

Vote: Ash

Ok, knee jerk reaction is over.

Back to vote: joth

It seems pretty unlikely that a multi shot, or even one-shot, dayvig is town. So I would suggest we take the ash lynch off the table, at least for now.

unvote

Iíll look at some interactions to see where to move it.

This was an interesting reaction, and I think scummy

(effectively unvoting ash)

Hereís my read on the situation having never played a game with a diving before.

The reason for not telling people about it is to have an ďace in the holeĒ, so to speak. Now that itís been used, everyone, town and scum knows to be on the lookout for it. Iím not sure why giving up the element of surprise to shoot someone you donít have a particularly strong read on is a good use of the power.

Shooting me would have made a lot more sense. I would be less suspicious of that. Of course I would be dead, so that wouldnít matter.

Shooting mcmc makes more sense if youíre scum. Heís got this ďthey were gonna lynch him anywayĒ defense, plus it throws suspicion onto me because people are going to wonder why you didnít shoot me if I was your scumread.

Not to mention the fact that you say you had no idea the deadline would be extended, which means... you wanted to remove the only wagon with enough votes on it to be non-random at a point where the town had no time to reach a new consensus?

Thatís super scummy to me.

vote: ash

vote: ash

Someone convince me that ashersky could be scum without the set up being broken because I badly want to vote for her.

I played a normal game on another site where scum team had 1 dayvig shot. Also maybe they should forgo the nk now. Or heís a third party. Pick one

Good enough for me. vote: ash

So, hereís what I donít get... Why did Ashersky kill mcmc when she did? Especially when she didnít think she was scum? Itís seems pretty anti-town to choose the only marginally largest wagon with a full day left to talk before DL and shoot before letting her claim or allowing more votes to coalesce before the kill. Especially if she really thought Glooble was more scummy.

Iím not trying to be dense (Iím still kinda new at this), so it would help if someone could explain to me how that shot at this time helps town.

Hetnys, in the books, is Radchaii but is also not regally on the right side of things and end up being held hostage by Breq (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancillary_Sword).

I am assuming there is a modifier on ashes role where ďthey have to shoot or X happensĒ.... prettty much bc i agree with you that thier actions donít make a ton of sense as skum. Draws way too much attention.

Unvote

Who is scummy on this wagon?

Me. Sure. I was the hammer and I did the whole ďgive me a reasonĒ thing plus I basically drove the mcmc wagon also. So I can definitely see why Iím not coming off great here!
LaLight. No explanation for the vote. Ready to supply the reason I needed.
Sheepy-sheep on both mcmc and ash wagons.
WCD maybe

Who looks towny?

e and DatSwan for (trying to) jump off the wagon

Final scumreads after day 1 re-read:
mail-mi, Robz, LaLight, WCD and Swan a little bit

Nullreads/canít decide:
Glooble, Awaclus, Space, Haddock (wasnít around day 1)

Town reads:
ash, e, hypercube

me:
joth

dead:
mcmc

I feel good for having this out there, even though I didn't really find any smoking guns.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on January 22, 2019, 10:33:53 am
Hi Joth-

I don't want to quote the giant wall, but here there is one part that is about me that I can respond to me before I need to go to work.  You say "I continue to get a slight scumread on WCD. She posts infrequently but her posts are lengthy, which could be indicative of newbie scum playing & posting very carefully. But it could also just be newbie town doing that. Her posts feel Ö strategic. idk. something to keep an eye on."

I am most def newbie town. I tend to think through and process what I am reading when I am posting, thus the length of my posts.  As for the infrequency, it doesn't feel infrequent to me!  But I know that sometimes I read and don't actually have anything to add until I have some time to dwell. While I am definitely not keeping up with the super high posters, I would bet that I am somewhere in the middle in a post count. So, I am posting very carefully but its mostly not to look silly/novice/clueless rather than to avoid suspicion. My best evidence that this is the way I play is M119. I have never been scum so I don't have any counter evidence.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on January 22, 2019, 10:44:34 am
Hi Joth-

I don't want to quote the giant wall, but here there is one part that is about me that I can respond to me before I need to go to work.  You say "I continue to get a slight scumread on WCD. She posts infrequently but her posts are lengthy, which could be indicative of newbie scum playing & posting very carefully. But it could also just be newbie town doing that. Her posts feel Ö strategic. idk. something to keep an eye on."

I am most def newbie town. I tend to think through and process what I am reading when I am posting, thus the length of my posts.  As for the infrequency, it doesn't feel infrequent to me!  But I know that sometimes I read and don't actually have anything to add until I have some time to dwell. While I am definitely not keeping up with the super high posters, I would bet that I am somewhere in the middle in a post count. So, I am posting very carefully but its mostly not to look silly/novice/clueless rather than to avoid suspicion. My best evidence that this is the way I play is M119. I have never been scum so I don't have any counter evidence.

This is a fine response. When you have a minute, I'd love to hear about why you started the mcmc wagon when you did rather then contributing to one of the existing cases.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Haddock on January 22, 2019, 10:54:07 am
This is a reminder to myself to reread Swan at some point.  The posts quoted in the above do look scummy but it's hard to tell out of context and I wasn't grabbed by anything in my initial catchup read.

joth is slowly talking me round, I like the most recent post especially.  I am conscious that it is very easy to look towny by reflecting the views of others, but nonetheless this is better.  I will consider moving.  But right now I'm trying to write a paper, so will be able to focus better later on.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Haddock on January 22, 2019, 10:55:00 am
EBWOP
This is a reminder to myself to reread Swan at some point.  The posts quoted in the above do look scummy but it's hard to tell out of context and I wasn't grabbed by anything in my initial catchup read.

joth is slowly talking me round, I like the second most recent (longer) post especially.  I am conscious that it is very easy to look towny by reflecting the views of others, but nonetheless this is better.  I will consider moving.  But right now I'm trying to write a paper, so will be able to focus better later on.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on January 22, 2019, 10:55:39 am
Hi Joth-

I don't want to quote the giant wall, but here there is one part that is about me that I can respond to me before I need to go to work.  You say "I continue to get a slight scumread on WCD. She posts infrequently but her posts are lengthy, which could be indicative of newbie scum playing & posting very carefully. But it could also just be newbie town doing that. Her posts feel Ö strategic. idk. something to keep an eye on."

I am most def newbie town. I tend to think through and process what I am reading when I am posting, thus the length of my posts.  As for the infrequency, it doesn't feel infrequent to me!  But I know that sometimes I read and don't actually have anything to add until I have some time to dwell. While I am definitely not keeping up with the super high posters, I would bet that I am somewhere in the middle in a post count. So, I am posting very carefully but its mostly not to look silly/novice/clueless rather than to avoid suspicion. My best evidence that this is the way I play is M119. I have never been scum so I don't have any counter evidence.

This is a fine response. When you have a minute, I'd love to hear about why you started the mcmc wagon when you did rather then contributing to one of the existing cases.

Mostly because I was uninspired by the Glooble/Hyper/Joth choices. I don't think it serves our town to lynch our most active players off the bat and even though there were some off notes here and there in different posts, all of y'all were playing. When I voted for Mcmc, I didn't know I was starting a wagon, and I didn't know that Asher was going to kill her. Rather, I was looking for her to get into the game. I moved my vote to Galz when Mcmc showed up and had a cranky series of posts about my frustration when folks are MIA--which I think is different than lurking. I think that frustration is pretty consistent for me, too. I didn't think that either Mcmc or Galz were necessarily scum, but I know for sure they were not contributing when I voted for them.

I also voted for Ash, mostly because I thought that shooting Mcmc was seriously Not Cool. But I was definitely under the impression that we had more time so I wasn't down with having him lynched and I was getting ready to respond to DatSwan's unvote when the day abruptly ended. 

Alright, class in 4 minutes so off to work for real this time. :)
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on January 22, 2019, 10:59:52 am
WCD is rapidly convincing me of her towniness.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: hypercube on January 22, 2019, 11:01:09 am
I've played all my games so far with WCD, so I can confirm that she's playing how I'd expect her to as town. Of course, she hasn't really been under any pressure yet so I wouldn't exactly give her an unshakable town read.

I also like joth's reread/analysis, it has some good insights and seems pretty towny overall. I guess I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt regarding his reaction to ash's claims for now.

Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: mail-mi on January 22, 2019, 11:13:08 am
Actually, Vote: mail-mi

While it might sound like pronoun-omgus, I've just realised that I haven't been doing setup stuff at all, so characterizing me as having done so is weird. I've talked about the flavour, because it's something I like, and about timezones because it's something I'm generally conscious of as someone who's not on the American continent.

I haven't really begun posting my thoughts on how the game mechanics and real set-up stuff might go, because the stuff I've thought of doesn't really fit with a anything I'd see as a balanced game.

This was a good point by Space that still sort of holds up.

no it doesn't. We already discussed this--by "set up" I was meaning logistics.

Quote

ah, a day 1 wagon on me. some things never change

vote: mail-mi

Mass claims on day one are always a bad idea.

You're probably right. I guess a better question would be, are there obvious flavor names that would be scum?

This is a two-punch scummy post from mail-mi. One, the "day 1 wagon on her" is 2 votes for unrelated reasons, so not really even much of a wagon at all. Two, the immediate back-down from the claim idea.

1. I was making a joke (something you like to do as well)
2. I was not married to the idea of a claim. It was simply a suggestion, that others who have been playing mafia for the last 2 years shot down. After reading their posts, I agreed with them. Simple as that

Quote
Vote: Jotheonah

This felt like pouncing on mail-mi for something that might very well be wrong but was not especially likely to come from scum. (Town needs no help tricking itself into mass claiming.)

When does scum ever actually do this? Scum doesn't need to pounce at this juncture. Scum just needs to wait for a good-looking town wagon and slide onboard.

Well, scum wants to look like they're.scumhunting.

vote: joth

vote: hypercube

This is exactly the position scum wants to be on the wagon. Voting for someone who already has votes, and turning a couple votes into an actual wagon

I know that didn't make much sense, I'm having a hard time putting my thoughts into words. I hope you (meaning the general populus) understands what I'm trying to say

This was part of my case on mail-mi yesterday. Itís an extremely weak case on hypercube and doesnít make a ton of sense as town. But as a gambit to get me off her back by voting for the person who just voted for me, it makes a lot of sense.

It was day 1, and it was the best I had up til that point.  I'm gonna reread hypercube, but I've got a townishread on her right now (which is subject to change) Why don't you talk about e's case on Hypercube, which is pretty much the same as the case I made? And why doesn't it make him scummy (cop claim notwithstanding)?

Quote
Looks like everyone has posted except ash, mcmc, and gala. Where y'all at?

Here is mail-mi changing the subject to something safe while everyone is talking about her and whether she might be scum.

If you would notice all the other posts around that post, I responded to the people voting for me and defended myself. Is it wrong to talk about multiple things at once, like you're doing in this post? I just did it in multiple posts.

Quote
I think continuing to focus on mail-mi so much--something Joth is doing--is somewhat scummy. I've often seen mail-mi make himself into an easy target in games past, perhaps especially when town.

This feels like a partner stepping in to protect. Also notable that this is one of Robzís very few posts so far all game.
He's not my partner because I am not scum. Also Robz just doesn't like day 1. It's a nullread on him for me.

Quote
Sidenote, there is so much voting for me happening day 1. Scum absolutely gave me hated because they knew Iíd be the easiest mislynch, and itís not twitchy or defensive of me to say so.

That's a fair point. It's also very possible that a townsperson has the ability to give you hated because they think that you are scum, and I still think that you are scummy, so currently I think it's the latter
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: mail-mi on January 22, 2019, 11:17:02 am
Well there's that.

Back to vote: joth

Hey mail-mi, what was this about?


I had been voting for galz for not being present, and he was replaced by Haddock. I didn't want to be voting for haddock, so I went with my highest scumread which was you.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: mail-mi on January 22, 2019, 11:21:50 am
Just reread hypercube, I don't have a strong townread on her now, but I do have a townread.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: faust on January 22, 2019, 11:25:48 am
Vote Count 2.1

jotheonah (2): Haddock, 2.71828.....
mail-mi (1): jotheonah

Not Voting (10): SpaceAnemone, LaLight, DatSwan, mail-mi, Awaclus, WestCoastDidds, Robz888, hypercube, Glooble, ashersky

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch. Day 2 ends on January 29, 2019, 01:00:00 am.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: mail-mi on January 22, 2019, 11:42:43 am
I have a feeling, based on flavor, that alignment switching is not going to be voluntary. I suspect Aanander Mianani will have some kind of cult leader mechanic. Could be wrong of course.

Mentions possible 3rd parties. Look at it in conjunction with his SK hunting for today. Also completely misses part of the setup, which does give him some small townpoints.

vote: mail-mi

Mass claims on day one are always a bad idea.

Votes for me. I like Robz's response to it, which also describes my thoughts:

Vote: Jotheonah

This felt like pouncing on mail-mi for something that might very well be wrong but was not especially likely to come from scum. (Town needs no help tricking itself into mass claiming.)

Quote from: jotheonah
Quote from: Robz888
I think continuing to focus on mail-mi so much--something Joth is doing--is somewhat scummy. I've often seen mail-mi make himself into an easy target in games past, perhaps especially when town.

I agree.

vote:Robz

Suddenly agrees that I make myself an easy target and unvotes off of me and back onto robz. So I guess suddenly has a townread on me, without much explanation as to why.

unvote

Voting for Robz was kind of silly.

it was.

Iím going to go ahead and say it: I strongly dislike the cube wagon. Everything about it feels scummy and bad. Iím going to move my vote to vote: mcmc. Not because of lurking, because of the posting sheís done since she stopped lurking.

I think describing the hypercube wagon as stalled while hypercube was the leading wagon, after saying she just caught up, is a scumslip. Someone who just caught up wouldnít make that mistake. Someone who was reading along and not posting and decided to make an appearance when the heat started getting on them might.

I know that when Iím scum itís hard to get myself to actually reread since Iím not actually looking for information.

Even if the mistake isnít a scum slip, ďsorry Iíve been lurking, Iím going to reread and conclude that the best lynch happens to also be the person with the most votes on her alreadyĒ doesnít look great on its own.

I actually thought mcmc's posting post-lurking was pretty townie. And in light of her flip, I don't like this vote.

A couple things.

1) we kind of breezed past ashís flavor claim, but isnít Hetnys a bad guy? Hetnys is Breqís subordinate and goes turncoat to work for Aanander.

2) I donít think weíre dealing with a double vote. I think weíre dealing with ash being hated (or one of each). So ash has at least three powers: daykill, lynchproof, and hated. You know who. Gets big piles of powers? A serial killer.

3) I donít want to force anyone to claim, but my power could help explain the lack of a nightkill iff LaLight is bulletproof or was targeted with protection.

4) FYI my hatedness today is not part of my role. So it has been inflicted on me. Not super-surprising since apparently I have ďtodayís mislynchĒ written all over me.

1) If Ash was a bad guy, he would have been given a fake flavor claim that was a good guy. I don't think scum!ash would just share his actual flavor name. This is a bad point.

2) SK does not get hated, that would be awful. Also, joth is SK hunting before we even have a single night kill, or a single scum dead.

3) we don't need those kind of claims right now

4) I think you have "today's correct lynch" written all over you.

Ironic that ash keeps talking about giving the town an extra lynch day 1 (as if thatís protown) But she has in fact denied us a day one lynch by not dying.

Iím tempted to ask ash to fullclaim. Iím also tempted to go ahead and try to finish what we started day one.

Well, I didn't plan on me being the extra lynch, nor did I know I wouldn't die.

The extra lynch should have been whomever was #2 on the lynch list -- so one of the folks with two votes.  Or it looks like the new Galzria would have been coming after you.

Regardless of my not dying, we did have two "lynches" on D1.  We just didn't get two flips.

As for full claiming, not a good idea.  Remaining number of shots and when/how I can use them is what scum wants to know.  Scum also wants to lynch me.

I've claimed what needs to be known (through words or actions).  Hetnys, sometimes dayvig, sometimes hated.  Everything else is not related to my role (not dying from lynch, surviving last night).

Cool, this is exactly what I expected a serial killer to say.

vote: Ash

Good enough for yesterday, good enough for today.

Again, is sk hunting before we even have a single nightkill. You know who really wants to get rid of the SK? scum.

Still waiting for an adequate explanation of your "multiple layers of weirdness" comment.  I saw you buried an answer in a misquote post, but "I didn't see you twice explained why you got lynched early" doesn't really cut it.

Nonetheless thatís the answer. I woke up this Leong to more than a page of posts, read through them quickly, didnít see those. So I thought you were claiming that you had no idea why you were lynched and also no idea why you didnít die.

If you're voting for someone, I would think you would read their posts carefully instead of saying "they're scum" (or in this case "they're sk) "lynch them!"

I'm still seeing scum!jotheonah here and it's not because she's annoying and/or flippant.  I haven't seen flippant at all really.

It's because she's OMGUSsy, hedgey, over defensive and twitchy. 

I mean, obviously I'm very happy to consider other lynches, but I'm happy where my vote is for now.  Noone else has really given me strong scumvibes.

I agree with Haddock here.

I also don't like his place on either the mcmc or the ash wagon. Ash, to me, was definitely town even yesterday.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: mail-mi on January 22, 2019, 11:43:23 am
I have a feeling, based on flavor, that alignment switching is not going to be voluntary. I suspect Aanander Mianani will have some kind of cult leader mechanic. Could be wrong of course.

Mentions possible 3rd parties. Look at it in conjunction with his SK hunting for today. Also completely misses part of the setup, which does give him some small townpoints.

vote: mail-mi

Mass claims on day one are always a bad idea.

Votes for me. I like Robz's response to it, which also describes my thoughts:

Vote: Jotheonah

This felt like pouncing on mail-mi for something that might very well be wrong but was not especially likely to come from scum. (Town needs no help tricking itself into mass claiming.)

Quote from: jotheonah
Quote from: Robz888
I think continuing to focus on mail-mi so much--something Joth is doing--is somewhat scummy. I've often seen mail-mi make himself into an easy target in games past, perhaps especially when town.

I agree.

vote:Robz

Suddenly agrees that I make myself an easy target and unvotes off of me and back onto robz. So I guess suddenly has a townread on me, without much explanation as to why.

unvote

Voting for Robz was kind of silly.

it was.

Iím going to go ahead and say it: I strongly dislike the cube wagon. Everything about it feels scummy and bad. Iím going to move my vote to vote: mcmc. Not because of lurking, because of the posting sheís done since she stopped lurking.

I think describing the hypercube wagon as stalled while hypercube was the leading wagon, after saying she just caught up, is a scumslip. Someone who just caught up wouldnít make that mistake. Someone who was reading along and not posting and decided to make an appearance when the heat started getting on them might.

I know that when Iím scum itís hard to get myself to actually reread since Iím not actually looking for information.

Even if the mistake isnít a scum slip, ďsorry Iíve been lurking, Iím going to reread and conclude that the best lynch happens to also be the person with the most votes on her alreadyĒ doesnít look great on its own.

I actually thought mcmc's posting post-lurking was pretty townie. And in light of her flip, I don't like this vote.

A couple things.

1) we kind of breezed past ashís flavor claim, but isnít Hetnys a bad guy? Hetnys is Breqís subordinate and goes turncoat to work for Aanander.

2) I donít think weíre dealing with a double vote. I think weíre dealing with ash being hated (or one of each). So ash has at least three powers: daykill, lynchproof, and hated. You know who. Gets big piles of powers? A serial killer.

3) I donít want to force anyone to claim, but my power could help explain the lack of a nightkill iff LaLight is bulletproof or was targeted with protection.

4) FYI my hatedness today is not part of my role. So it has been inflicted on me. Not super-surprising since apparently I have ďtodayís mislynchĒ written all over me.

1) If Ash was a bad guy, he would have been given a fake flavor claim that was a good guy. I don't think scum!ash would just share his actual flavor name. This is a bad point.

2) SK does not get hated, that would be awful. Also, joth is SK hunting before we even have a single night kill, or a single scum dead.

3) we don't need those kind of claims right now

4) I think you have "today's correct lynch" written all over you.

Ironic that ash keeps talking about giving the town an extra lynch day 1 (as if thatís protown) But she has in fact denied us a day one lynch by not dying.

Iím tempted to ask ash to fullclaim. Iím also tempted to go ahead and try to finish what we started day one.

Well, I didn't plan on me being the extra lynch, nor did I know I wouldn't die.

The extra lynch should have been whomever was #2 on the lynch list -- so one of the folks with two votes.  Or it looks like the new Galzria would have been coming after you.

Regardless of my not dying, we did have two "lynches" on D1.  We just didn't get two flips.

As for full claiming, not a good idea.  Remaining number of shots and when/how I can use them is what scum wants to know.  Scum also wants to lynch me.

I've claimed what needs to be known (through words or actions).  Hetnys, sometimes dayvig, sometimes hated.  Everything else is not related to my role (not dying from lynch, surviving last night).

Cool, this is exactly what I expected a serial killer to say.

vote: Ash

Good enough for yesterday, good enough for today.

Again, is sk hunting before we even have a single nightkill. You know who really wants to get rid of the SK? scum.

Still waiting for an adequate explanation of your "multiple layers of weirdness" comment.  I saw you buried an answer in a misquote post, but "I didn't see you twice explained why you got lynched early" doesn't really cut it.

Nonetheless thatís the answer. I woke up this Leong to more than a page of posts, read through them quickly, didnít see those. So I thought you were claiming that you had no idea why you were lynched and also no idea why you didnít die.

If you're voting for someone, I would think you would read their posts carefully instead of saying "they're scum" (or in this case "they're sk) "lynch them!"

I'm still seeing scum!jotheonah here and it's not because she's annoying and/or flippant.  I haven't seen flippant at all really.

It's because she's OMGUSsy, hedgey, over defensive and twitchy. 

I mean, obviously I'm very happy to consider other lynches, but I'm happy where my vote is for now.  Noone else has really given me strong scumvibes.

I agree with Haddock here.

I also don't like his place on either the mcmc or the ash wagon. Ash, to me, was definitely town even yesterday.

fixed my last post
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: mail-mi on January 22, 2019, 11:47:21 am
Also joth's point about "a lot of votes for me" is semi true. Joth was somebody that a lot of people were scumreading, but we could never actually get a real wagon going--exactly what happens with scum wagons on day 1. If/when joth flips scum, we should look at who was scumreading him but not voting for him day 1 or today.

But with all that said,

vote: joth
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on January 22, 2019, 11:51:22 am
There's a lot happening pretty fast, which is excellent, but I can't keep up from a busy day at work. Brief thoughts for now: WCD seems townie to me in the same way hyper did yesterday. Ash self-voting earlier actually seems like town!ash being miffed at us. Other stuff will have to wait till I'm not furtively checking the thread while my colleagues are in a meeting.

PPE 3
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on January 22, 2019, 12:04:53 pm
Ok, let's talk about SK hunting real quick.

I am pro-lynching scum and anti-lynching town. Killing a serial killer (if we have one, which I actually think we don't) is lynching scum. I'd rather lynch someone I have a strong SK-read on than someone I have a weak scum-read on.

Just statistically, SK kills are more likely to hit town. Killing a SK halves the nightkills, which gives town more time to find scum and more control over the game.

TL;DR SK-hunting is pro-town and I'm not sorry about it.

This is all pretty academic since I don't think we have an SK and ash is apparently just really bad at being a vig. But if it's the case against me mail-mi is going with, that is my defense.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: hypercube on January 22, 2019, 12:46:11 pm
I don't want to derail anything, but at the same time I don't see any reason to delay this, so I'm going to claim now. I don't think this should really impact how we play out the rest of the Day anyways.

I have been targeted for an alignment change. I have decided not to accept this change, and consequently I will die at the end of the Day. I have made this decision since I am a VT, and I think that publicizing this information and dying gives me a better chance of winning than does changing my alignment.

The alignment change would transfer me to a faction which is not considered an enemy of the Radch. The win condition of this faction is for all enemies of the Radch to be eliminated, and for a certain player (whose identity I do not know) to survive. This unknown player must be the only surviving Anaander Mianaai for this faction to win. I do not know if joining the faction would make me an Anaander Mianaai, or whether multiple Anaander Mianaai of different factions currently exist.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Glooble on January 22, 2019, 12:51:02 pm
I think continuing to focus on mail-mi so much--something Joth is doing--is somewhat scummy. I've often seen mail-mi make himself into an easy target in games past, perhaps especially when town.

Trying to do a reread during my lunchbreak and this post stuck out at me. At the time Robz posts this, Awaclus is the one who is pushing mail-mi's wagon a lot harder than joth. In fact, joth has already started to back off mail-mi. Seems a little odd that Robz doesn't attack her.

someone mentioned earlier in the game that "skum just wants to make it look like they are skum hunting for credit".

asking questions like these pretty much meet that criteria imo

Vote: Awaclus

I think I glossed over this exchange back on day one, which lead to me misreading the little DatSwan/ Awaclus fight. ON rereading I kind of agree with DatSwan here, at least regarding Awalus's play in the early pages. I know people who've played with her before are saying she's just like this, but I still have a bit of a scrumread on her.

So, we will all wait for after dinner and for folks to get caught up, or maybe for a Ashersky plan

So.. is it pro-town just to wait for Ash's plan? Are you even aware of the kinds of things these Ashersky-plans of his tend to involve?

Characteristic one: he announces to the thread that he has a plan, but then waits ages to post it, building expectation. In games like this, it has a very real risk of stalling all the genuine worthwhile conversation in the thread because too many people buy into the cult of the Ashersky plan and don't want to put their own effort in when they hope someone else is going to come along and do it for them.

I think it's not very pro-town of him to do the hint-and-run routine in the first place, but it's certainly not pro-town for the rest of us to let multiple comments along the lines of "let's wait for Ashersky's plan" go by and not have at least a little rant about it ;-)

(I was going to go into more characteristics of the plans, but I'm at work, and now my breakfast-coffee is over, I need to get back to analysis of real data!)

I still mostly have a townread on Space, but at the point this post was made it kinda seems like no one was actually suggesting just waiting around for a plan? WCD, DatSwan and I all said we were eager to hear the plan, but none of us said anything I would construe as meaning "let's just sit and do nothing and wait for ash to save us." So kind of a slightly fishy comment to make?

You know who is looking really scummy this reread though? LaLight. A lot of her votes are sheepish or have minimal reasoing behind them. I don't think sheeping a vote here and there is inherently scummy, especially if someone else made a strong point, but doing it repeatedly is suspicious. See her votes for hypercube on page 6, me on page 10, and ashersky on page 17.

vote: LaLight
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on January 22, 2019, 12:51:18 pm
Ok in light of this new information, e, can you confirm that ash is Radch-aligned, or did your investigative result say something along the lines of "not an enemy of the radch"? Could ash be the recruiter or some other third faction?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Glooble on January 22, 2019, 12:52:02 pm
I don't want to derail anything, but at the same time I don't see any reason to delay this, so I'm going to claim now. I don't think this should really impact how we play out the rest of the Day anyways.

I have been targeted for an alignment change. I have decided not to accept this change, and consequently I will die at the end of the Day. I have made this decision since I am a VT, and I think that publicizing this information and dying gives me a better chance of winning than does changing my alignment.

The alignment change would transfer me to a faction which is not considered an enemy of the Radch. The win condition of this faction is for all enemies of the Radch to be eliminated, and for a certain player (whose identity I do not know) to survive. This unknown player must be the only surviving Anaander Mianaai for this faction to win. I do not know if joining the faction would make me an Anaander Mianaai, or whether multiple Anaander Mianaai of different factions currently exist.


Confused. If this is RM how can you be a VT?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: hypercube on January 22, 2019, 12:57:02 pm
I don't want to derail anything, but at the same time I don't see any reason to delay this, so I'm going to claim now. I don't think this should really impact how we play out the rest of the Day anyways.

I have been targeted for an alignment change. I have decided not to accept this change, and consequently I will die at the end of the Day. I have made this decision since I am a VT, and I think that publicizing this information and dying gives me a better chance of winning than does changing my alignment.

The alignment change would transfer me to a faction which is not considered an enemy of the Radch. The win condition of this faction is for all enemies of the Radch to be eliminated, and for a certain player (whose identity I do not know) to survive. This unknown player must be the only surviving Anaander Mianaai for this faction to win. I do not know if joining the faction would make me an Anaander Mianaai, or whether multiple Anaander Mianaai of different factions currently exist.


Confused. If this is RM how can you be a VT?

Because it says so in my PM  :D

Seriously though, my understanding is that RM means "lots of roles" not necessarily "no VTs."
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Signups open!)
Post by: jotheonah on January 22, 2019, 01:01:44 pm
Setup

This is a closed setup. It contains roles with abilities designed specifically for this game as well as standard abilities. A player may have more or less than one ability. There is at least one possibility in this game for a player to change their alignment. Care has been taken to make this as balanced as possible. Noone's alignment can change without their consent.

Some roles in this game are AIs. Those may interact differently with other abilities than non-AI roles.

Checks out
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Glooble on January 22, 2019, 01:12:00 pm
Ok cool. I thought RM meant literally everyone had a role. I guess I was wrong.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: mail-mi on January 22, 2019, 01:12:14 pm
Interesting info coming from hypercube, I guess faust's comments about choosing alignment changing were real.

Seems a little unfair that the choice is between alignment change and death, but whatever. Is there anything else you can tell us about it hypercube?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on January 22, 2019, 01:14:59 pm
Holy cow, Hyper! Thatís nuts. Thanks for not joining the dark side. So, we know there is Rachaii, Aanander, and a third party. Iím assuming the Presgar translators.

Glooble, Iím feeling you on the LaLight scummy vibe. SHeís been far less engaged than Iíve known her to be.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: hypercube on January 22, 2019, 01:21:48 pm
Is there anything else you can tell us about it hypercube?

The third faction could win alongside town, however if the leader dies all its members will be endgamed and die as well.

So, the third faction is a potential ally to town or a serious potential liability down the road. I'm not really sure how to approach the question of whether to hunt them or not.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on January 22, 2019, 01:24:45 pm
I was scum with LaLight in the just-concluded Czech mafia game, which I assume I'm now allowed to discuss. Honestly, her play so far has been pretty similar. But I wouldn't put a ton of weight on that because I get the sense she's very good at matching her town meta as scum. Also, for day 1 she was probably putting more attention on Czech mafia, which was in LyLo.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Glooble on January 22, 2019, 01:26:10 pm
Is there anything else you can tell us about it hypercube?

The third faction could win alongside town, however if the leader dies all its members will be endgamed and die as well.

So, the third faction is a potential ally to town or a serious potential liability down the road. I'm not really sure how to approach the question of whether to hunt them or not.


I would say not. Play to our win-con.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: mail-mi on January 22, 2019, 01:41:26 pm
Is there anything else you can tell us about it hypercube?

The third faction could win alongside town, however if the leader dies all its members will be endgamed and die as well.

So, the third faction is a potential ally to town or a serious potential liability down the road. I'm not really sure how to approach the question of whether to hunt them or not.

Did it say anything about the faction winning alongside scum?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Awaclus on January 22, 2019, 01:51:53 pm
Preferably we should at least identify who the third faction are. Whether or not we should lynch them depends on the situation; survivors are beneficial for the faction that is already winning.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: hypercube on January 22, 2019, 01:56:00 pm
Is there anything else you can tell us about it hypercube?

The third faction could win alongside town, however if the leader dies all its members will be endgamed and die as well.

So, the third faction is a potential ally to town or a serious potential liability down the road. I'm not really sure how to approach the question of whether to hunt them or not.

Did it say anything about the faction winning alongside scum?

The faction has to eliminate the enemies of the Radch to win, so presumably not.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: 2.71828..... on January 22, 2019, 02:00:36 pm
Ashersky is Radch-aligned.

And yeah, sounds like a very interesting survivor role for the 3rd party. Wonder if they can recruit scum too?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: mail-mi on January 22, 2019, 02:02:20 pm
Is there anything else you can tell us about it hypercube?

The third faction could win alongside town, however if the leader dies all its members will be endgamed and die as well.

So, the third faction is a potential ally to town or a serious potential liability down the road. I'm not really sure how to approach the question of whether to hunt them or not.

Did it say anything about the faction winning alongside scum?

The faction has to eliminate the enemies of the Radch to win, so presumably not.

So I guess they're a survivor variant that's aligned with town. Don't think we should worry about killing them, then. If it does happen though I wouldn't be too sad.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: 2.71828..... on January 22, 2019, 02:02:54 pm
Is there anything else you can tell us about it hypercube?

The third faction could win alongside town, however if the leader dies all its members will be endgamed and die as well.

So, the third faction is a potential ally to town or a serious potential liability down the road. I'm not really sure how to approach the question of whether to hunt them or not.

Did it say anything about the faction winning alongside scum?

The faction has to eliminate the enemies of the Radch to win, so presumably not.

So survivor-esque, not straight survivor that wins with town or scum.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: 2.71828..... on January 22, 2019, 02:04:15 pm
Preferably we should at least identify who the third faction are. Whether or not we should lynch them depends on the situation; survivors are beneficial for the faction that is already winning.

If they only win with town then I think that we don't even need to try to identify them
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: 2.71828..... on January 22, 2019, 02:05:58 pm
My thought now is to use them to basically establish an IC each day? Accept the change in alignment, you stay alive, but we count things like lylo in light of the fact that a single NK could eliminate 2-3 or more players
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: 2.71828..... on January 22, 2019, 02:06:16 pm
Haven't thought that much about it though
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: 2.71828..... on January 22, 2019, 02:07:05 pm
I do appreciate hypercube's sacrifice. Learning this D2 with a flip at EoD really helps us I think. Especially if we can use it well
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Glooble on January 22, 2019, 04:35:37 pm
My thought now is to use them to basically establish an IC each day? Accept the change in alignment, you stay alive, but we count things like lylo in light of the fact that a single NK could eliminate 2-3 or more players

Do we have any reason to believe the members of this faction just straight up die when their leader does? My assumption would be they're still in the game, they just can't win.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: 2.71828..... on January 22, 2019, 04:42:23 pm
Is there anything else you can tell us about it hypercube?

The third faction could win alongside town, however if the leader dies all its members will be endgamed and die as well.

So, the third faction is a potential ally to town or a serious potential liability down the road. I'm not really sure how to approach the question of whether to hunt them or not.

@Glooble, emphasis mine
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on January 22, 2019, 04:44:27 pm
What if the faction is led by an AI and the concerts are ancillaries. If itís killed, would her ancillaries die, too?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Glooble on January 22, 2019, 04:46:56 pm
Is there anything else you can tell us about it hypercube?

The third faction could win alongside town, however if the leader dies all its members will be endgamed and die as well.

So, the third faction is a potential ally to town or a serious potential liability down the road. I'm not really sure how to approach the question of whether to hunt them or not.

@Glooble, emphasis mine

Thanks I missed that. This should probably inform how we see players defending other players. I know we often use that as a scumtell, especially in later days. But in this case it might not be.

What if the faction is led by an AI and the concerts are ancillaries. If it’s killed, would her ancillaries die, too?

Well, in the books an Ancillary can survive the death of it's ship (that's how we get Breq.)
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on January 22, 2019, 04:58:56 pm
Quote from: Glooble link=topic=19374.msg783871#msg783871 date=1548193616

[quote author=WestCoastDidds link=topic=19374.msg783870#msg783870 date=1548193467
What if the faction is led by an AI and the converts are ancillaries. If itís killed, would her ancillaries die, too?

Well, in the books an Ancillary can survive the death of it's ship (that's how we get Breq.)
[/quote]

Yeah, I thought about that but I couldnít think of any other mechanic that killed the followers if the leader died. Do you have ideas? Maybe if a gate went down?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: hypercube on January 22, 2019, 05:18:05 pm
The third faction is Anaander Mianaai, or at least their leader is. From my rudimentary research into the flavour it seems that this is some sort of communal intelligence, so this makes sense. Now I'm curious why Didds thought Anaander Mianaai was something else...

Holy cow, Hyper! Thatís nuts. Thanks for not joining the dark side. So, we know there is Rachaii, Aanander, and a third party. Iím assuming the Presgar translators.

Glooble, Iím feeling you on the LaLight scummy vibe. SHeís been far less engaged than Iíve known her to be.

Could the scum faction also be Anaander Mianaai? Someone else with flavour knowledge help me out here.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on January 22, 2019, 05:25:35 pm
I assumed scum was Aanander and her minions. That is who Breq fights in the book.

There are aliens from beyond the Ghost Gate (notai, I think) who still use human ancillaries and aliens from Presgar  who are more powerful than humans (and who have created a super powerful gun that can kill anything that us in Breqís pissssion) but they are not enemies of the Radchaii. So I think aliens are the third party, but it doesnít jive with the all die when the leader dies.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on January 22, 2019, 05:27:42 pm
I'm basically caught up now! I'll post thoughts in a bit.

@Hyper, sorry about your predicament. I think it could go either way with Anaander being scum. She's the head of the Radch, so should be very much Radch-aligned. There are lots of clones of her, all networked together to be one person, except that it doesn't quite work right, so there are factions within Anander. Also, so manages to annexe a non-Anaander at one point, but then Breq finds out and fixes her.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on January 22, 2019, 05:30:04 pm
Catch-up thought #1: Why weren't any of the people posting today before Joth did asking about why he's hated? I had originally asked myself "why is nobody talking about this", and then it seemed a bit odd that Joth himself had to end up being the one to bring it up.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on January 22, 2019, 05:34:19 pm
Ash being town seems kind of plausible, though I still don't like yesterday's choice of shot when one of the main people pushing that wagon -- me -- was specifically pushing it with the agenda that all other things being equal, mcmc was the least bad of the set, and we had to lynch someone. That is a world away from "town needs to lynch this person because they're scummy", which is how Ash is presenting his action.

@e, how confident are you that you can't have been redirected, and that your result can't come from a godfather or some mechanism similar to that?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Glooble on January 22, 2019, 05:37:11 pm
Catch-up thought #1: Why weren't any of the people posting today before Joth did asking about why he's hated? I had originally asked myself "why is nobody talking about this", and then it seemed a bit odd that Joth himself had to end up being the one to bring it up.

I guess I just didnít see the point in speculating about that? My first thought was it was ashís power ďwhoever hammers my wagon gets hated the next dayĒ. But then Ash has a whole kitchen sink of powers. Joth says itís not innate and that makes sense - ďhated day 2Ē is a weird power. The obvious conclusion is someone has the power to make someone hated. Sounds like a scum power, but I suppose it could be town?

After that itís just WIFOM on who has that power and why they picked joth.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on January 22, 2019, 05:39:44 pm
I have a feeling, based on flavor, that alignment switching is not going to be voluntary. I suspect Aanander Mianani will have some kind of cult leader mechanic. Could be wrong of course.

I've never played a game with a Cult Leader, but is it pretty much just what Hyper has now described?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Glooble on January 22, 2019, 05:40:45 pm
Ash being town seems kind of plausible, though I still don't like yesterday's choice of shot when one of the main people pushing that wagon -- me -- was specifically pushing it with the agenda that all other things being equal, mcmc was the least bad of the set, and we had to lynch someone. That is a world away from "town needs to lynch this person because they're scummy", which is how Ash is presenting his action.

@e, how confident are you that you can't have been redirected, and that your result can't come from a godfather or some mechanism similar to that?

We also need to consider the possibility that ash and e are both part of this third faction. It would explain a lot.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on January 22, 2019, 05:42:46 pm
Joth says itís not innate and that makes sense

Yeah, but my point is that Joth didn't say it was not innate till quite a lot of posts had happened in the day, and nobody seemed to wonder about it in all that time. For me, it was in immediate question when I saw the day opener.

It combines with the double-hated thing Ash seems to have/have had on D1. Another odd thing is that Ash's hated wasn't broadcast in-thread at all, whereas Joth's is there for us all to know about.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Glooble on January 22, 2019, 05:50:18 pm
Given the sheer amount of weird stuff there was to talk about, Iím not surprised we glossed over something.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: hypercube on January 22, 2019, 05:52:47 pm
I assumed scum was Aanander and her minions. That is who Breq fights in the book.

There are aliens from beyond the Ghost Gate (notai, I think) who still use human ancillaries and aliens from Presgar  who are more powerful than humans (and who have created a super powerful gun that can kill anything that us in Breqís pissssion) but they are not enemies of the Radchaii. So I think aliens are the third party, but it doesnít jive with the all die when the leader dies.

Again, I know from the message I received from faust that the leader of the third faction is Aanander. If scum is also Aanander, then I'm pretty sure that means that you're scum who slipped by revealing that you know scum's flavour.

Uh, remember this after I'm dead everyone! If a scum flips Aanander-aligned or something, lynch WCD.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Glooble on January 22, 2019, 06:02:17 pm
Anander literally fights herself in the books. And one faction of her is the primary villain. I donít think WCDís assumption is scummy in the least.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: hypercube on January 22, 2019, 06:04:30 pm
Ash being town seems kind of plausible, though I still don't like yesterday's choice of shot when one of the main people pushing that wagon -- me -- was specifically pushing it with the agenda that all other things being equal, mcmc was the least bad of the set, and we had to lynch someone. That is a world away from "town needs to lynch this person because they're scummy", which is how Ash is presenting his action.

@e, how confident are you that you can't have been redirected, and that your result can't come from a godfather or some mechanism similar to that?

We also need to consider the possibility that ash and e are both part of this third faction. It would explain a lot.

I thought about this too, but I don't think it makes sense. Well, I'm still not sure if it's pro-town to talk about this, but if I've figured something out this easily it's probably not super difficult for scum to do the same, so I guess I'll go ahead.

I think the leader is someone who had a strong town read on me yesterday. I assume that they can't recruit scum, since that would break the game. Trying to recruit scum almost certainly leads to to either a failure or the death of the leader, and therefore there's a strong incentive to recruit your strongest town reads. The other option would be that the scum would just die, but that seems way too strong. I don't think ash can be the leader, and I don't think E had a strong town read on me (unless she was pushing my wagon for most of yesterday insincerely).

This leads me to conclude that joth is the leader. She expressed a strong town read on me yesterday, and it would explain her behaviour, which I would categorize as being pro-town but also anxious about her survival.

joth, if I'm right, I think you should claim now. You're in a pretty bad position (sorry) so probably your best hope at this point is going to be to rely on town protection.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: hypercube on January 22, 2019, 06:05:34 pm
Anander literally fights herself in the books. And one faction of her is the primary villain. I donít think WCDís assumption is scummy in the least.

Ah, OK. Sorry Didds, I probably shouldn't try to scumhunt based on flavour I'm not familiar with.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Haddock on January 22, 2019, 06:09:44 pm
Ash being town seems kind of plausible, though I still don't like yesterday's choice of shot when one of the main people pushing that wagon -- me -- was specifically pushing it with the agenda that all other things being equal, mcmc was the least bad of the set, and we had to lynch someone. That is a world away from "town needs to lynch this person because they're scummy", which is how Ash is presenting his action.

@e, how confident are you that you can't have been redirected, and that your result can't come from a godfather or some mechanism similar to that?

We also need to consider the possibility that ash and e are both part of this third faction. It would explain a lot.

I thought about this too, but I don't think it makes sense. Well, I'm still not sure if it's pro-town to talk about this, but if I've figured something out this easily it's probably not super difficult for scum to do the same, so I guess I'll go ahead.

I think the leader is someone who had a strong town read on me yesterday. I assume that they can't recruit scum, since that would break the game. Trying to recruit scum almost certainly leads to to either a failure or the death of the leader, and therefore there's a strong incentive to recruit your strongest town reads. The other option would be that the scum would just die, but that seems way too strong. I don't think ash can be the leader, and I don't think E had a strong town read on me (unless she was pushing my wagon for most of yesterday insincerely).

This leads me to conclude that joth is the leader. She expressed a strong town read on me yesterday, and it would explain her behaviour, which I would categorize as being pro-town but also anxious about her survival.

joth, if I'm right, I think you should claim now. You're in a pretty bad position (sorry) so probably your best hope at this point is going to be to rely on town protection.
This is one of the most fascinatingly bold predictions I've ever seen apropos of nothing in a mafia game.  I freaking love it and very much want it to be true.


OK normal service resumes, I'm gonna reread a bit.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Haddock on January 22, 2019, 06:32:23 pm
Ok in light of this new information, e, can you confirm that ash is Radch-aligned, or did your investigative result say something along the lines of "not an enemy of the radch"? Could ash be the recruiter or some other third faction?
unvote  I like this post, I'm not sure it's something scum thinks about. 

Think I like vote:Robz, at least until she comes and does something.  She's not VLA right?

Catch-up thought #1: Why weren't any of the people posting today before Joth did asking about why he's hated? I had originally asked myself "why is nobody talking about this", and then it seemed a bit odd that Joth himself had to end up being the one to bring it up.
This is a really bizarre thing to get hung up on.  Why would we spend time speculating on that?  It's an RMM, these things are basically never understandable.

Ash being town seems kind of plausible, though I still don't like yesterday's choice of shot when one of the main people pushing that wagon -- me -- was specifically pushing it with the agenda that all other things being equal, mcmc was the least bad of the set, and we had to lynch someone. That is a world away from "town needs to lynch this person because they're scummy", which is how Ash is presenting his action.

@e, how confident are you that you can't have been redirected, and that your result can't come from a godfather or some mechanism similar to that?
Also somewhat bizarre?  We can probably largely agree that ash's play was not quite the right one, especially in retrospect, but that doesn't mean she's scum; town make mistakes, even ash.   How can you be so confident ash is scum that you are starting to question e's result?  I mean, sure we should take e's result with a pinch of salt, but, eh.   Surely it's enough to leave ash alone for now, especially in light of some way more interesting stuff going on.


Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on January 22, 2019, 06:54:00 pm
Surely it's enough to leave ash alone for now, especially in light of some way more interesting stuff going on.

Hey, c'mon, I did say that the string of stuff I posted was the notes I'd taken during my re-read. I was just about lurking along with a little of the earlier day, but had too much going on at work to be able to keep up, let along engage and post. Just because I'm a bit late to the party doesn't mean I can't give my take on things, especially given that I'm also responding to more recent stuff, so it's not that I'm trying to change the subject away from the "way more interesting things" or anything like that.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Haddock on January 22, 2019, 06:55:52 pm
Surely it's enough to leave ash alone for now, especially in light of some way more interesting stuff going on.

Hey, c'mon, I did say that the string of stuff I posted was the notes I'd taken during my re-read. I was just about lurking along with a little of the earlier day, but had too much going on at work to be able to keep up, let along engage and post. Just because I'm a bit late to the party doesn't mean I can't give my take on things, especially given that I'm also responding to more recent stuff, so it's not that I'm trying to change the subject away from the "way more interesting things" or anything like that.
Totally fine, that's cool.  Just, y'know, opinionating on your opinions. :)
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Robz888 on January 22, 2019, 07:13:32 pm
Hey everybody, I've had an absolutely INSANE couple of days work wise and am hopelessly behind at the moment. Won't have time to catch up until tomorrow at least.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on January 22, 2019, 08:00:30 pm
Ash being town seems kind of plausible, though I still don't like yesterday's choice of shot when one of the main people pushing that wagon -- me -- was specifically pushing it with the agenda that all other things being equal, mcmc was the least bad of the set, and we had to lynch someone. That is a world away from "town needs to lynch this person because they're scummy", which is how Ash is presenting his action.

@e, how confident are you that you can't have been redirected, and that your result can't come from a godfather or some mechanism similar to that?

We also need to consider the possibility that ash and e are both part of this third faction. It would explain a lot.

I thought about this too, but I don't think it makes sense. Well, I'm still not sure if it's pro-town to talk about this, but if I've figured something out this easily it's probably not super difficult for scum to do the same, so I guess I'll go ahead.

I think the leader is someone who had a strong town read on me yesterday. I assume that they can't recruit scum, since that would break the game. Trying to recruit scum almost certainly leads to to either a failure or the death of the leader, and therefore there's a strong incentive to recruit your strongest town reads. The other option would be that the scum would just die, but that seems way too strong. I don't think ash can be the leader, and I don't think E had a strong town read on me (unless she was pushing my wagon for most of yesterday insincerely).

This leads me to conclude that joth is the leader. She expressed a strong town read on me yesterday, and it would explain her behaviour, which I would categorize as being pro-town but also anxious about her survival.

joth, if I'm right, I think you should claim now. You're in a pretty bad position (sorry) so probably your best hope at this point is going to be to rely on town protection.

Swing and a miss. Sorry. Or ... not sorry?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on January 22, 2019, 10:19:50 pm
Anander literally fights herself in the books. And one faction of her is the primary villain. I donít think WCDís assumption is scummy in the least.

Ah, OK. Sorry Didds, I probably shouldn't try to scumhunt based on flavour I'm not familiar with.

No worries.

There are are lots of Aananders in the book, some that are Breq is working for an some she is working against. If you are confused, its because it is confusing, not because I am scummy. The whole point of me talking about the book is to try to help flesh out what we might be dealing with.

I know that the Radchaii that Breq represents are what we know is town. These Radchaii started as part of Aanander and believe that the empire has expanded enough and that humans employees should be used to staff the ships instead of ancillaries of the AIs (conquered humans whose brains have been replaced with AI connections- corpse warriors). Everything else I am uncertain about.

There are three possibilities that I can think of for either third party or scum.
1. The other side of Aanander Minaii who want to keep expanding and conquering. In the book there are characters who follow this part if Aanander like Hetnys, the religious leader whose name I forget, and Tisserwat until she gets changed
2. The Presgar- aliens who built this super powerful gun and who have the capability to wipe out humans, but are bound by a treaty not to. There are two Presgar translaters who interact/work with Breq in the books
3. The Notai, who are in a ship beyond the ghost gate. They have been buying human bodies to use for ancillaries that were stolen and sold illegally by  Hetnys (I think).

Glooble, space, anyone else who has read the books....please feel free to correct or amend.

If Aanander tried to recruit Hyper and is about to kill him, it must be the expansionist Aanander. Interestingly, I think Hetnys (Asher) would be in that faction.  So, e and Ash together in the faction is an interesting possibility, for sure, and is kind of genius, right?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: mail-mi on January 22, 2019, 10:41:27 pm
I don't want to derail anything, but at the same time I don't see any reason to delay this, so I'm going to claim now. I don't think this should really impact how we play out the rest of the Day anyways.

I have been targeted for an alignment change. I have decided not to accept this change, and consequently I will die at the end of the Day. I have made this decision since I am a VT, and I think that publicizing this information and dying gives me a better chance of winning than does changing my alignment.

The alignment change would transfer me to a faction which is not considered an enemy of the Radch. The win condition of this faction is for all enemies of the Radch to be eliminated, and for a certain player (whose identity I do not know) to survive. This unknown player must be the only surviving Anaander Mianaai for this faction to win. I do not know if joining the faction would make me an Anaander Mianaai, or whether multiple Anaander Mianaai of different factions currently exist.

I just read over Hypercube's post again, and this is noteworthy. Do you think there's more than one Anaander Miannai out there? This would make sense, and from what y'all've said about the flavor, that also makes sense.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: DatSwan on January 23, 2019, 12:46:54 am
Good morning, folks!

Hi Haddock....in your giant post you quoted me and said that in regard to plan discussions that I had completely missed the point. So, uhm, yeah....that is accurate. Iím newish to the game (this is my 5th game) and somethingís that are obvious to others take me awhile to work out. I think I miss the point of posts quite a bit at first, but improve with time....or at least that is my hope.

I am still confused about how Asher got lynched with only 5 votes so far from the deadline. Is there a power that can end the day, and then itís the plurality vote? Is that more likely than two people having an extra vote? And did Asherís shot give her immunity?

You may have missed it, but I claimed the 5 vote lynch part.  I two took less votes to lynch than normal.

Did it take 2 less to lynch you because you used your shot, or was that inevitable?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: DatSwan on January 23, 2019, 12:49:41 am
I wish I was an SK here.  MVP win last time out.

It's been a long time since I've played a game with joth, I think.  What I don't remember is if shutdown-ignore everything-confirmation bias joth is scum!joth or town!joth.

As most would know, I'm always happy to get lynched just to say I told you so.  My green flip just proves you wrong and proves me right.

vote: ash

What are you attempting to prove here? Why would you vote yourself?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: DatSwan on January 23, 2019, 12:53:37 am
I basically completely believe that Ash is town at this point, and I'm definitely leaning towards voting for joth for SK hunting etc..

One thing I wanted to point out is this post when Swan jumps off the Ash wagon:

So, hereís what I donít get... Why did Ashersky kill mcmc when she did? Especially when she didnít think she was scum? Itís seems pretty anti-town to choose the only marginally largest wagon with a full day left to talk before DL and shoot before letting her claim or allowing more votes to coalesce before the kill. Especially if she really thought Glooble was more scummy.

Iím not trying to be dense (Iím still kinda new at this), so it would help if someone could explain to me how that shot at this time helps town.

Hetnys, in the books, is Radchaii but is also not regally on the right side of things and end up being held hostage by Breq (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancillary_Sword).

I am assuming there is a modifier on ashes role where ďthey have to shoot or X happensĒ.... prettty much bc i agree with you that thier actions donít make a ton of sense as skum. Draws way too much attention.

Unvote

It's weird to me since Swan is saying that she agrees with WCD that Ash's actions don't make sense as scum (which I agree with), but in the post that Swan is actually quoting WCD is making the case that Ash is scum. So, it reads to me like Swan was really looking for an excuse to jump off that wagon.

I'm not sure if that means anything (it seemed more important before Ash claimed double-hated), but I figured I'd point it out anyways.

I was playing catch up and this was the quote I was on - just wanted to make sure it was being directed at WCD.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: DatSwan on January 23, 2019, 01:00:59 am
Is there anything else you can tell us about it hypercube?

The third faction could win alongside town, however if the leader dies all its members will be endgamed and die as well.

So, the third faction is a potential ally to town or a serious potential liability down the road. I'm not really sure how to approach the question of whether to hunt them or not.

So this makes me feel like there is a person out there that can recruit players to a "town kind of aligned third faction" which can actually work against town. Example being if on, let's say, Day 4 They have recruited 3 people... and then we kill the recruiting player... that would mean Town (or "not skum") would lose 4 heads on the spot. Just something to keep in mind.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: DatSwan on January 23, 2019, 01:05:03 am
Yeah this flavor is messing with me a little bit because I do not know it at all. Trying to comprehend it, but essentially I do not see how Ashes can be skum if it is not both E! and Ashes. I need to just vanilla read back Day 1 to see who I think is skummy while dropping my lack of understanding of the flavor.. so that will come shortly.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: 2.71828..... on January 23, 2019, 01:20:10 am
Yeah, really not a fan of hypercube trying to figure out who the survivor-cult leader is.  I am of the strong opinion that they should remain anonymous.

SK hunting may be townie to a certain extent, but survivor hunting is just not really worth it. Need to just find the scum.

And I need to reread a bit based on all the new information
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: 2.71828..... on January 23, 2019, 02:48:50 am
Another thing, flavor has identifying characteristics, but it will not win the game for us, so I wouldn't focus on it too much
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: LaLight on January 23, 2019, 03:14:03 am
Ashersky is Radch-aligned.

And yeah, sounds like a very interesting survivor role for the 3rd party. Wonder if they can recruit scum too?

This will break the game if we agree that faust would not make the game where scum do not know each other. I think the point that they will die if they recruit scum is also not really believable.

Maybe they get Hated? :)
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: LaLight on January 23, 2019, 03:15:27 am
My thought now is to use them to basically establish an IC each day? Accept the change in alignment, you stay alive, but we count things like lylo in light of the fact that a single NK could eliminate 2-3 or more players

Do we have any reason to believe the members of this faction just straight up die when their leader does? My assumption would be they're still in the game, they just can't win.

"They're still in a game and just can't win" doesn't work. People are not motivated, they won't play. I think there was an example of smth like this in Bastard Mafia but I don't remember which one. Dying altogether... Well, I guess there is like 2 or 3 of them and they need to keep their boss alive if they don't they die so for a faction of 2 or 3 people that'd work.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: LaLight on January 23, 2019, 03:16:42 am
Catch-up thought #1: Why weren't any of the people posting today before Joth did asking about why he's hated? I had originally asked myself "why is nobody talking about this", and then it seemed a bit odd that Joth himself had to end up being the one to bring it up.

I don't see the point of asking, by anyone or even by Joth himself. If some town role did it they will just say "Sorry joth that was me", if scum did it, they won't confess, so we mostly are talking about stuff that can be somehow deduced and spoken about
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: LaLight on January 23, 2019, 03:18:04 am
Another thing, flavor has identifying characteristics, but it will not win the game for us, so I wouldn't focus on it too much

Yeah, all this flavor talk is really cool and all, but i am afraid those who are familiar will narrow their vision based on flavor. faust wouldn't ever make a game which can be solved based on flavor, or any parts of the game solved by flavor, so i think this is just harmful to talk about it so much. I try to treat this game as flavorless when i reread
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: LaLight on January 23, 2019, 03:19:12 am
my vote for ash in the end of the previous day was like that because I messed up all the timings and still thought it was EoD even in the start of D2 and I thought there was no time left at all. I also had a little time on my hands, I was sure ash is scum so i voted and disappeared
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: LaLight on January 23, 2019, 03:19:58 am
Joth's SK hunting was a little bit suspicious, but I liked the justification of it
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: LaLight on January 23, 2019, 03:20:09 am
vote: 2.71828.....
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: LaLight on January 23, 2019, 03:20:43 am
1-shot cop is also something I would expect useful for the guys who can't recruit scum.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: LaLight on January 23, 2019, 03:21:44 am
oh, and we don't have any reason to believe it's 1-shot. Survivor-cult-cop is so beautifully elegant
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: ashersky on January 23, 2019, 06:13:00 am
I think questions for me were all about the Hated?  Trade off for shooting.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: ashersky on January 23, 2019, 06:14:46 am
For the record, I take credit for the mcmc shot. I was just explaining how I chose my target when talking about shooting the biggest wagon.

For the record, I would have shot Gloob or Space if I chose on my own.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: ashersky on January 23, 2019, 06:17:16 am
True Cult Leader role would result in mass death if it dies. Close to BM, too. Iíd assume some protection from that.

The explanation we saw makes it sound like multiple players have Aanander as a flavor name, probably as different alignments.

I think we just ignore them.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: LaLight on January 23, 2019, 07:05:31 am
The explanation we saw makes it sound like multiple players have Aanander as a flavor name, probably as different alignments.

oh i haven't thought about that. interesting point
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: ashersky on January 23, 2019, 07:58:03 am
To expand on a theory based on a claim that is unconfirmed but seems crazy if fake...

Let's say there are three Aananders: green, red, and blue.  For the cult to win, both green and red Aananders have to die AND all threats to town have to be nullified.

If that's the case, it's in the Cult's best interest to play like town, except for lynching gA.  rA dies when scum is removed from the game, leaving bA.  At some point, someone in the Cult could decide to claim and say ask for gA to sacrifice themselves -- probably near endgame and with rA being dead.

This is just a spitball setup creation sort of thing.  If the modified towncult is the centerpiece of the setup, you build around it.  Aanander (clone?) cops, for example, could be a thing (i.e., each night you may target a player; if they share a flavor name with another player, you will be informed of that fact).  Then the cop doesn't even need to know it's A, although flavor tells you that maybe.

Anyway.  The danger here is if the Cult is actually a Cult, then it wouldn't share town's wincon.  They could win separately and the game ends, or they leave.  Then we'd be left having played for them.

So, if anything, any and all Cult related matters should be dealt with in a manner to further the green wincon, not theirs.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: 2.71828..... on January 23, 2019, 08:04:43 am
So, if anything, any and all Cult related matters should be dealt with in a manner to further the green wincon, not theirs.

Which is why I am really happy about hypercube's decision to reject the cult. He dies, flips green, and we can totally trust everything he has said
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: hypercube on January 23, 2019, 08:18:01 am
I'm not really a fan of most people not voting (including me), so I did a quick reread to try and fix that. I came to the conclusion that I should vote: mail-me.

I think her case against joth (521-522) is kind of scummy and OMGUS. A lot of it is just fluff I think rather than actual reasons why joth is scum. I also don't like her vote placement D1, she spends most of her time voting for me and joth, who I think were the two players who would most likely look like mislynches to scum.

Also her reaction to ash's shot was very null, and it seemed like she didn't really consider what it meant regarding ash's alignment until she was challenged on it.

It's not an amazing case by any means. But I couldn't find a better one either.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: hypercube on January 23, 2019, 08:26:00 am
Sorry that should be vote: mail-mi of course.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: hypercube on January 23, 2019, 08:30:04 am
So, if anything, any and all Cult related matters should be dealt with in a manner to further the green wincon, not theirs.

Which is why I am really happy about hypercube's decision to reject the cult. He dies, flips green, and we can totally trust everything he has said

Yes, to be clear, everything I said about the cult came directly from faust, so once I am dead there should be no reason to doubt it.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on January 23, 2019, 08:32:17 am
If we have a townie Green Anaander, would she maybe have the ability to rescue Hyper, or any future townies who're taken by the other coloured factions Ash posits? That would be helpful for keeping the possibility of late-game mass-die-offs in check.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on January 23, 2019, 08:37:00 am
Bummed that my biggest towmread is dying at the end of the day.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: LaLight on January 23, 2019, 08:47:02 am
Bummed that my biggest towmread is dying at the end of the day.

Was that intentional?..
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Glooble on January 23, 2019, 08:57:06 am

It's not an amazing case by any means. But I couldn't find a better one either.


Did you consider LaLight? On my reread she really felt like someone voting opportunistically and trying to stay off people's radars.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Glooble on January 23, 2019, 08:59:38 am
That being said I haven't had time to go through with a fine-toothed comb and really build a case. But has she done anything that screams town to any of you?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: LaLight on January 23, 2019, 09:08:44 am

It's not an amazing case by any means. But I couldn't find a better one either.


Did you consider LaLight? On my reread she really felt like someone voting opportunistically and trying to stay off people's radars.

I haven't had enough time to read, it was the end of Czech Mafia, a lot was going on, so I skimmed, saw something that looked like a decent case and voted. Basically that's it. I now will participate more
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: mail-mi on January 23, 2019, 09:11:39 am
I'm not really a fan of most people not voting (including me), so I did a quick reread to try and fix that. I came to the conclusion that I should vote: mail-me.

I think her case against joth (521-522) is kind of scummy and OMGUS. A lot of it is just fluff I think rather than actual reasons why joth is scum. I also don't like her vote placement D1, she spends most of her time voting for me and joth, who I think were the two players who would most likely look like mislynches to scum.

Also her reaction to ash's shot was very null, and it seemed like she didn't really consider what it meant regarding ash's alignment until she was challenged on it.

It's not an amazing case by any means. But I couldn't find a better one either.

It was less a case and more a reread that turned into a case by the end of it.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on January 23, 2019, 09:13:37 am
That being said I haven't had time to go through with a fine-toothed comb and really build a case. But has she done anything that screams town to any of you?

One of the things I am having a hard time processing about LL is how completely he missed the replacement, EOD extension, Asher shot, Asher quick lynch. It felt so dramatic to me when it happened, and such a game-changer...but maybe because I was in at the time? I donít know, but it seems like the kind of oversight scum would make because why does he care how long we have when his vote is on the leading town wagon?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: LaLight on January 23, 2019, 09:18:48 am
actually I missed only the extension, talking about it. There is no point in saying "oh my god the shot" "oh my god the flip", because people were already talking about it and i don't feel like I can add much to the discussion
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: hypercube on January 23, 2019, 09:21:15 am

It's not an amazing case by any means. But I couldn't find a better one either.


Did you consider LaLight? On my reread she really felt like someone voting opportunistically and trying to stay off people's radars.

LL is pretty much just null to me. I'm willing to give her a pass for D1 based on being busy with Czech mafia stuff. I did think the part where she came up with a plan and then immediately realized that it was terrible was somewhat towny.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: hypercube on January 23, 2019, 09:36:55 am
Anyways, I'll post a reads list while things are fresh in my mind

1. SpaceAnemone: Pretty towny D1, hasn't done much D2. Nullish town overall
2. jotheonah: I'm fairly sure she's town at this point
3. LaLight: Null
4. DatSwan: Started an argument with Awa (which I thought felt like it could be staged), asks a lot of questions which don't seem particularily incisive. Nullish scum, probably where I'd be voting if I wasn't voting for mail-mi right now
5. mail-mi: Nullish scum
6. Awaclus: Townish null
7. 2.71828.....: Pretty towny. I don't like that people just agreed with her cop claim uncritically but overall I think signs point to her being town
8. WestCoastDidds: Nullish town
9. Robz888: Hasn't done much other than vote for my wagon (which is bad). Nullish scum
10. hypercube: that's me irl
11. ashersky: Town
12. Haddock: I like what I've seen so far, so I'll give her a town read for now
13. Glooble: A good number of towny posts and a decent number of scummy posts. Was on my wagon, mcmc's wagon, and ash's wagon, which is kind of scummy. Probably a townish null read but not a terrible lynch choice since lots of people have expressed opinions on her.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on January 23, 2019, 09:37:42 am

It's not an amazing case by any means. But I couldn't find a better one either.


Did you consider LaLight? On my reread she really felt like someone voting opportunistically and trying to stay off people's radars.

LL is pretty much just null to me. I'm willing to give her a pass for D1 based on being busy with Czech mafia stuff. I did think the part where she came up with a plan and then immediately realized that it was terrible was somewhat towny.

I agree but I give LaLight just enough credit to do that on purpose as scum, especially right out of the gate. Last game we planned a little bit of D1 banter during N0.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Haddock on January 23, 2019, 09:46:10 am
I'm not really a fan of most people not voting (including me), so I did a quick reread to try and fix that. I came to the conclusion that I should vote: mail-me.

I think her case against joth (521-522) is kind of scummy and OMGUS. A lot of it is just fluff I think rather than actual reasons why joth is scum. I also don't like her vote placement D1, she spends most of her time voting for me and joth, who I think were the two players who would most likely look like mislynches to scum.

Also her reaction to ash's shot was very null, and it seemed like she didn't really consider what it meant regarding ash's alignment until she was challenged on it.

It's not an amazing case by any means. But I couldn't find a better one either.
What makes you so certain joth is town?

I do tend to agree that the mail-mi vs joth thing looks bad for one of them, I just come down on the side of joth coming out looking worse.

Swan is looking scummier atm, but i remember finding swan scummy in previous games too.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: hypercube on January 23, 2019, 09:53:23 am
What makes you so certain joth is town?

Maybe it's because she keeps buddying me!

Well, mostly it's because she's been under a lot of pressure and I think she's handled it pretty well overall. She's not playing afraid of people scumreading her, which I like. I also think the cases she's built have been reasonable, and seemed to reflect town thinking.

I'm not so certain of this that I think joth is above scrutiny; certainly if mail-mi flipped town that would cause me to reevaluate my read on joth.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Glooble on January 23, 2019, 12:44:59 pm
The only reason I'm not voting ashersky is I think he's unlikely to be scum with that power. But that leaves me thinking she's town that's playing really badly, and that doesn't sit super well with me with what I know of ashersky.

It has no bearing at this juncture, but we often discuss having vig shots directed.  But there is thecscum element there that canít be erased. Instead, I used the flow of day and the votes.

Honestly, if I had chosen by myself, Iíd have shot Glooble.

This makes zero sense to me. Ash is saying "I didn't want to have town direct my shot, because then scum would manipulate it." (so far so good). So instead, I let myself be guided by the top wagon, because clearly there's no possibility that scum is manipulating that.

(I am of course being sarcastic. There is every possibility that the largest day one wagon is on town and being manipulated by scum, in fact it's much, much more likely than not.)

Someone convince me that ashersky could be scum without the set up being broken because I badly want to vote for her.

I played a normal game on another site where scum team had 1 dayvig shot. Also maybe they should forgo the nk now. Or heís a third party. Pick one

LaLight sure is quick to give joth a reason to vote for ash.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on January 23, 2019, 01:23:13 pm
So we still have nearly a week before deadline, which is kind of nice.

request vote count

Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on January 23, 2019, 01:49:56 pm
It's a little disappointing that folks have fallen off, but perhaps the lack of urgency + real life will do that.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: hypercube on January 23, 2019, 02:00:46 pm
The only reason I'm not voting ashersky is I think he's unlikely to be scum with that power. But that leaves me thinking she's town that's playing really badly, and that doesn't sit super well with me with what I know of ashersky.

It has no bearing at this juncture, but we often discuss having vig shots directed.  But there is thecscum element there that canít be erased. Instead, I used the flow of day and the votes.

Honestly, if I had chosen by myself, Iíd have shot Glooble.

This makes zero sense to me. Ash is saying "I didn't want to have town direct my shot, because then scum would manipulate it." (so far so good). So instead, I let myself be guided by the top wagon, because clearly there's no possibility that scum is manipulating that.

(I am of course being sarcastic. There is every possibility that the largest day one wagon is on town and being manipulated by scum, in fact it's much, much more likely than not.)

Someone convince me that ashersky could be scum without the set up being broken because I badly want to vote for her.

I played a normal game on another site where scum team had 1 dayvig shot. Also maybe they should forgo the nk now. Or heís a third party. Pick one

LaLight sure is quick to give joth a reason to vote for ash.

LL, why did you think scum maybe should forgo the nk?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: LaLight on January 23, 2019, 02:26:02 pm
The only reason I'm not voting ashersky is I think he's unlikely to be scum with that power. But that leaves me thinking she's town that's playing really badly, and that doesn't sit super well with me with what I know of ashersky.

It has no bearing at this juncture, but we often discuss having vig shots directed.  But there is thecscum element there that canít be erased. Instead, I used the flow of day and the votes.

Honestly, if I had chosen by myself, Iíd have shot Glooble.

This makes zero sense to me. Ash is saying "I didn't want to have town direct my shot, because then scum would manipulate it." (so far so good). So instead, I let myself be guided by the top wagon, because clearly there's no possibility that scum is manipulating that.

(I am of course being sarcastic. There is every possibility that the largest day one wagon is on town and being manipulated by scum, in fact it's much, much more likely than not.)

Someone convince me that ashersky could be scum without the set up being broken because I badly want to vote for her.

I played a normal game on another site where scum team had 1 dayvig shot. Also maybe they should forgo the nk now. Or heís a third party. Pick one

LaLight sure is quick to give joth a reason to vote for ash.

LL, why did you think scum maybe should forgo the nk?

What I've meant there was that they could go with a dayvig shot but then they'll be prohibited to use NK. Sorry, sometimes non-nativeness is seen
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: LaLight on January 23, 2019, 02:26:53 pm
The only reason I'm not voting ashersky is I think he's unlikely to be scum with that power. But that leaves me thinking she's town that's playing really badly, and that doesn't sit super well with me with what I know of ashersky.

It has no bearing at this juncture, but we often discuss having vig shots directed.  But there is thecscum element there that canít be erased. Instead, I used the flow of day and the votes.

Honestly, if I had chosen by myself, Iíd have shot Glooble.

This makes zero sense to me. Ash is saying "I didn't want to have town direct my shot, because then scum would manipulate it." (so far so good). So instead, I let myself be guided by the top wagon, because clearly there's no possibility that scum is manipulating that.

(I am of course being sarcastic. There is every possibility that the largest day one wagon is on town and being manipulated by scum, in fact it's much, much more likely than not.)

Someone convince me that ashersky could be scum without the set up being broken because I badly want to vote for her.

I played a normal game on another site where scum team had 1 dayvig shot. Also maybe they should forgo the nk now. Or heís a third party. Pick one

LaLight sure is quick to give joth a reason to vote for ash.

yeah, because being a dayvig is not the same as being IC. All things considered it's much more suspicious that joth asked for justifying his reasons to vote for ash
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Haddock on January 23, 2019, 02:32:09 pm
What makes you so certain joth is town?

Maybe it's because she keeps buddying me!

Well, mostly it's because she's been under a lot of pressure and I think she's handled it pretty well overall. She's not playing afraid of people scumreading her, which I like. I also think the cases she's built have been reasonable, and seemed to reflect town thinking.

I'm not so certain of this that I think joth is above scrutiny; certainly if mail-mi flipped town that would cause me to reevaluate my read on joth.
She was definitely playing afraid earlier. All through d1 and into early d2.  Less so now maybe.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Glooble on January 23, 2019, 02:46:31 pm

yeah, because being a dayvig is not the same as being IC. All things considered it's much more suspicious that joth asked for justifying his reasons to vote for ash

I also didn't think ash was IC (obviously I was on her wagon.) But I was mostly pointing out that you jumped in to answer joth's question minutes after he posted it. It seems, as I mentioned earlier, opportunistic. I'll buy the excuse that you were in a much more tense other game as a reason for not jumping in more. But it seems like you did jump in very quickly when you had a chance to persuade someone to be on ash's wagon.

That being said, Jonah's hedging in that exchange also comes off kinda scummy. Like he's trying to give himself deniability in the event ash turns up town.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: mail-mi on January 23, 2019, 03:15:35 pm
i like glooble's thoughts about lalight and joth so far. Need to take some time to put my own thoughts together about non-joth, non-ash, and non-e people.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: faust on January 23, 2019, 03:28:39 pm
Vote Count 2.2

jotheonah (2): 2.71828....., mail-mi
mail-mi (2): jotheonah, hypercube
LaLight (1): Glooble
Robz888 (1): Haddock
2.71828..... (1): LaLight

Not Voting (6): SpaceAnemone, DatSwan, Awaclus, WestCoastDidds, Robz888, ashersky

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch. Day 2 ends on January 29, 2019, 01:00:00 am.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on January 23, 2019, 03:36:47 pm
Dayvig as a scum power seems too powerful to exist in a balanced game. So I did think the shot pointed heavily toward ash being town. I didn't think about it being instead of the nightkill or a third-party.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on January 23, 2019, 03:38:45 pm
vote: 2.71828.....

1-shot cop is also something I would expect useful for the guys who can't recruit scum.

oh, and we don't have any reason to believe it's 1-shot. Survivor-cult-cop is so beautifully elegant

We should talk about the fact that LaLight voted for the claimed cop and her justification is that e's claimed power makes her likely to be part of the recruiter faction (which is explicitly not scum). LaLight, why are you voting for someone you don't think is scum?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on January 23, 2019, 03:44:03 pm
Anyways, I'll post a reads list while things are fresh in my mind

1. SpaceAnemone: Pretty towny D1, hasn't done much D2. Nullish town overall
2. jotheonah: I'm fairly sure she's town at this point
3. LaLight: Null
4. DatSwan: Started an argument with Awa (which I thought felt like it could be staged), asks a lot of questions which don't seem particularily incisive. Nullish scum, probably where I'd be voting if I wasn't voting for mail-mi right now
5. mail-mi: Nullish scum
6. Awaclus: Townish null
7. 2.71828.....: Pretty towny. I don't like that people just agreed with her cop claim uncritically but overall I think signs point to her being town
8. WestCoastDidds: Nullish town
9. Robz888: Hasn't done much other than vote for my wagon (which is bad). Nullish scum
10. hypercube: that's me irl
11. ashersky: Town
12. Haddock: I like what I've seen so far, so I'll give her a town read for now
13. Glooble: A good number of towny posts and a decent number of scummy posts. Was on my wagon, mcmc's wagon, and ash's wagon, which is kind of scummy. Probably a townish null read but not a terrible lynch choice since lots of people have expressed opinions on her.

I'm digging this list, although i'd put LL in the scumish list, too. I had originally found Swan towny, but increasingly not so much. Same with mail-mi. None of this are super well defined....mostly just a sense of things.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Glooble on January 23, 2019, 03:50:16 pm
I would be happy to start an LL wagon. I also think we should be looking at Robz.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on January 23, 2019, 04:03:23 pm
Robz said she was swamped at work so maybe we give him a minute.... But at some point, dude.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: hypercube on January 23, 2019, 04:22:16 pm
What makes you so certain joth is town?

Maybe it's because she keeps buddying me!

Well, mostly it's because she's been under a lot of pressure and I think she's handled it pretty well overall. She's not playing afraid of people scumreading her, which I like. I also think the cases she's built have been reasonable, and seemed to reflect town thinking.

I'm not so certain of this that I think joth is above scrutiny; certainly if mail-mi flipped town that would cause me to reevaluate my read on joth.
She was definitely playing afraid earlier. All through d1 and into early d2.  Less so now maybe.

She was defensive I thought but not afraid. If you're afraid you probably don't keep doing things like blatant SK hunting.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on January 23, 2019, 06:46:31 pm
I would be happy to start an LL wagon. I also think we should be looking at Robz.

I think LL's thing about criticizing Joth for SK-hunting (which was mostly directed at Ash), then scumreading e because e's role was just the sort of thing that the apparent recruiter faction would have is almost too lazy to be scummy. It also misses that e and Ash are kind of linked by e's claimed PR result on Ash, which I don't think he'd feel the need to claim as scum. That is, unless e and Ash are on the same scum/recruiter faction.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on January 23, 2019, 06:47:46 pm
I think it's most productive to reserve judgement on e and Ash till later, given that they're now linked kind of, so if one flips anything other than town, we should reevaluate the other. There are lots of players we have less information or constraints than that on.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on January 23, 2019, 06:48:40 pm
Robz said she was swamped at work so maybe we give him a minute.... But at some point, dude.

I do think it's worth us keeping him in game-consciousness, because nothing about being busy makes him any less likely to be scum.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on January 23, 2019, 07:06:28 pm
I do tend to agree that the mail-mi vs joth thing looks bad for one of them, I just come down on the side of joth coming out looking worse.

I've been re-reading you. This was from post #612, and it feels like quite a retrograde step in your reasoning... what was going on with that?

Back at post #512 you'd said joth was talking you around, after your compliment on his mail-mi case at #507. You had voted for joth at #453, but then unvoted (and switched to Robz) at #568, which was all before this post saying that joth is the more suspicious one of a pair where things look really bad for one of them. Do things look even worse than that for Robz, being a nullish lurker?

Also, you used a smiley at #570, so you pretty much scum ;-)
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on January 23, 2019, 07:19:29 pm
While I remember, Haddock will be at my place tomorrow evening for Games Night, so I won't even be booting my laptop while he's around, just to keep f.ds and RL properly separate. That means my content tomorrow will probably be minimal. Sorry!
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: mail-mi on January 23, 2019, 08:15:26 pm
While I remember, Haddock will be at my place tomorrow evening for Games Night, so I won't even be booting my laptop while he's around, just to keep f.ds and RL properly separate. That means my content tomorrow will probably be minimal. Sorry!

Another twinclaim!
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: mail-mi on January 23, 2019, 08:16:04 pm
Robz said she was swamped at work so maybe we give him a minute.... But at some point, dude.

I do think it's worth us keeping him in game-consciousness, because nothing about being busy makes him any less likely to be scum.

I agree with this, but I also feel like scum!robz would put a little more effort into the game. So he's a decidedly null lurker to me rn
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on January 23, 2019, 08:29:16 pm
While I remember, Haddock will be at my place tomorrow evening for Games Night, so I won't even be booting my laptop while he's around, just to keep f.ds and RL properly separate. That means my content tomorrow will probably be minimal. Sorry!

Ohhh! Fun!! I love the IRL stuff.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: LaLight on January 24, 2019, 03:51:39 am

yeah, because being a dayvig is not the same as being IC. All things considered it's much more suspicious that joth asked for justifying his reasons to vote for ash

I also didn't think ash was IC (obviously I was on her wagon.) But I was mostly pointing out that you jumped in to answer joth's question minutes after he posted it. It seems, as I mentioned earlier, opportunistic. I'll buy the excuse that you were in a much more tense other game as a reason for not jumping in more. But it seems like you did jump in very quickly when you had a chance to persuade someone to be on ash's wagon.

That being said, Jonah's hedging in that exchange also comes off kinda scummy. Like he's trying to give himself deniability in the event ash turns up town.

So you're saying every other wagon was on my scum partner, so ash was my only way to derail everything? No. I just thought ash is scum. And mostly think so now. Maybe third-party, but i don't think ash is town.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: LaLight on January 24, 2019, 03:52:54 am
I would be happy to start an LL wagon. I also think we should be looking at Robz.

I think LL's thing about criticizing Joth for SK-hunting (which was mostly directed at Ash), then scumreading e because e's role was just the sort of thing that the apparent recruiter faction would have is almost too lazy to be scummy. It also misses that e and Ash are kind of linked by e's claimed PR result on Ash, which I don't think he'd feel the need to claim as scum. That is, unless e and Ash are on the same scum/recruiter faction.

yeah well, e could theoretically claim that if he really had the cop shot and copped ash, because if/when ash flips town, we will believe e, not so much if e will say "i copped him N1' afterwards. That is basically why I vote for e and not ash.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: LaLight on January 24, 2019, 03:55:06 am
also i would definitely vote Robz here. I mean, IRL stuff, i get it, but somehow i have an impression that in the last like 10? games Robz heavily lurked when he was scum. I think it started after M100.

yeah, let's try this: vote: Robz

Anyway if he comes here and sees the kind of wagon on him, his reaction will be more sincere
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: LaLight on January 24, 2019, 03:56:42 am
vote: 2.71828.....

1-shot cop is also something I would expect useful for the guys who can't recruit scum.

oh, and we don't have any reason to believe it's 1-shot. Survivor-cult-cop is so beautifully elegant

We should talk about the fact that LaLight voted for the claimed cop and her justification is that e's claimed power makes her likely to be part of the recruiter faction (which is explicitly not scum). LaLight, why are you voting for someone you don't think is scum?

let's talk about this.

The third party who is explicitly not scum? This doesn't work. they have their own win condition. And YOU (unless you're with them) do not know it.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: LaLight on January 24, 2019, 04:00:16 am
I see what hyper have said. But it still rubs me the wrong way. Third-parties do not work with town. maybe faust overrode this somehow, but then why wouldn't one of those third-party guys told us so? Why wouldn't hyper then convert and claim basically the same thing, but staying alive? if they are not the enemy, that is. hyper would be alive, scum would need to kill one more person. But no, hyper declined and we lose a person, who in any case would help town, being either town or so-called helping third party
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: LaLight on January 24, 2019, 04:01:37 am
sorry, I'm all over the place. tl;dr Hypercube could stay alive, changing alignment and still be quasitown, if and only if we believe that this third-party is non harmful for town.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: LaLight on January 24, 2019, 04:03:13 am
oh also i remembered a thing I was thinking yesterday: WCD said that I am not acive therefore scummy, but how does this make sense if she remembers Adventure Time Mafia, where I was one of the most active members?

my level of activity has nothing to do with my alignment
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: LaLight on January 24, 2019, 04:05:32 am
I am yet to see scum!notsurvivor!WCD, but this looks like she's trying to make the case on me, without actually voting me and seeing if someone picks up on that.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: LaLight on January 24, 2019, 04:08:05 am
anyway, I want to stay on Robz and i encourage you to build a wagon on him when he gets back
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Awaclus on January 24, 2019, 04:14:02 am
Sure. Vote: Robz
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Haddock on January 24, 2019, 04:52:03 am
I do tend to agree that the mail-mi vs joth thing looks bad for one of them, I just come down on the side of joth coming out looking worse.

I've been re-reading you. This was from post #612, and it feels like quite a retrograde step in your reasoning... what was going on with that?

Back at post #512 you'd said joth was talking you around, after your compliment on his mail-mi case at #507. You had voted for joth at #453, but then unvoted (and switched to Robz) at #568, which was all before this post saying that joth is the more suspicious one of a pair where things look really bad for one of them. Do things look even worse than that for Robz, being a nullish lurker?

Also, you used a smiley at #570, so you pretty much scum ;-)

I'm undecided, basically. I think their fight makes one of them look bad and joth comes out looking worse. But joth has down town things lately so I'm reserving judgement. But yeah if you made me pick one of them to vote for it would absolutely be joth.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Haddock on January 24, 2019, 04:53:16 am
"done town things"*.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Haddock on January 24, 2019, 05:06:57 am

yeah, because being a dayvig is not the same as being IC. All things considered it's much more suspicious that joth asked for justifying his reasons to vote for ash

I also didn't think ash was IC (obviously I was on her wagon.) But I was mostly pointing out that you jumped in to answer joth's question minutes after he posted it. It seems, as I mentioned earlier, opportunistic. I'll buy the excuse that you were in a much more tense other game as a reason for not jumping in more. But it seems like you did jump in very quickly when you had a chance to persuade someone to be on ash's wagon.

That being said, Jonah's hedging in that exchange also comes off kinda scummy. Like he's trying to give himself deniability in the event ash turns up town.

So you're saying every other wagon was on my scum partner, so ash was my only way to derail everything? No. I just thought ash is scum. And mostly think so now. Maybe third-party, but i don't think ash is town.
Nyeh. Thing is, ash's behaviour and apparent role doesn't seem to me to be consistent with the Aanander faction, whatever's going on with them. If he's nontown and non scum (and assuming there's a scum faction other than Aanander, which I admit is a  big assumption), then you're essentially suggesting he's 4th party?
Just not seeing it, especially in light of a positive cop result.
vote: 2.71828.....

1-shot cop is also something I would expect useful for the guys who can't recruit scum.

oh, and we don't have any reason to believe it's 1-shot. Survivor-cult-cop is so beautifully elegant

We should talk about the fact that LaLight voted for the claimed cop and her justification is that e's claimed power makes her likely to be part of the recruiter faction (which is explicitly not scum). LaLight, why are you voting for someone you don't think is scum?

let's talk about this.

The third party who is explicitly not scum? This doesn't work. they have their own win condition. And YOU (unless you're with them) do not know it.
Agree with this. We don't actually have any solid information on the Aanander win con.

Well, actually:  hyper, is it possible you've been deceived, or is the information you've been given mod-confirmed?



Other news: I'm happy to continue the robz wagon as a proderator, but am conflicted now. The timing of the recent robz votes has a whiff of scum-pushing easy wagon.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on January 24, 2019, 05:24:00 am
While I remember, Haddock will be at my place tomorrow evening for Games Night, so I won't even be booting my laptop while he's around, just to keep f.ds and RL properly separate. That means my content tomorrow will probably be minimal. Sorry!

Another twinclaim!

I did mention it as soon as he joined the thread, just in case it altered anyone's reads of us:

Not quite another twinclaim, but Haddock is the IRL friend who got me into f.ds mafia several years ago.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: ashersky on January 24, 2019, 05:33:05 am
LL was super odd in that string of posts.  LL's usually a good ash-reader, too, but I guess it's been awhile.

Robz votes are scummy in that they aren't based on anything but not being here.  Robz's "I'm busy IRL" did come in the game thread and not the VLA thread, so it is possible he's lying, I guess, but has anyone really played that card (ever?).  It's one thing to not post for awhile and then fudge the excuse as IRL busy-ness, but to proactively lie about a plan to skip some days is a bit over-the-top, and not very Robzlike.

So yeah.  Boo on that whole thought process.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: LaLight on January 24, 2019, 05:37:41 am
LL was super odd in that string of posts.  LL's usually a good ash-reader, too, but I guess it's been awhile.

Robz votes are scummy in that they aren't based on anything but not being here.  Robz's "I'm busy IRL" did come in the game thread and not the VLA thread, so it is possible he's lying, I guess, but has anyone really played that card (ever?).  It's one thing to not post for awhile and then fudge the excuse as IRL busy-ness, but to proactively lie about a plan to skip some days is a bit over-the-top, and not very Robzlike.

So yeah.  Boo on that whole thought process.

I am a good ash-reader? Since when? I remember Breaking Bad game it was awful back then.

Also I am not trying to lynch Robz.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: ashersky on January 24, 2019, 05:39:02 am
On this possible cult alignment thing...

Cults are generally BM only.  To make it work in this game, faust would have to at least announce the possibility of alignment changes (he did), work out a way to make sure alignment changes didn't affect the previous alignment negatively (which would mean excluding scum), and find a way to make sure the game was at least somewhat fun for all.

Cults generally start out with one player (Cult Leader, bA in this scenario).  LL's not-well-thought-out complaint that "if the cult were really pro-town, why didn't someone claim so" doesn't work given this probability; there was one member on N0 who may or may not have been able to attempt a recruit pre-game.  I would assume they wouldn't know if it worked until N1, so D1 was a no-go for claiming, especially since the entire cult loses if bA dies.

As for the rest -- my best guess is bA can attempt to recruit any player and never actually learns the results.  If a player dies, maybe he knows that was a decline; if a player survives, maybe they joined or maybe they never got the invite (because of current alignment).  For example, bA invites scum, but it isn't delivered because scum is not a valid target.

It makes for a nervous game, given you never know how many players are with you.  I'd assume it's an unblockable power, so bA could invite a different player each night to try to gain numbers without worrying about previous unknowns.  But who knows; I'm not the mod.

So, that's a long brainstorm on how you could theoretically make a cult non-BM and explain why there wouldn't be a claim D1 (or ever if bA needs to survive) directly from known cult members.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: ashersky on January 24, 2019, 05:39:39 am
LL was super odd in that string of posts.  LL's usually a good ash-reader, too, but I guess it's been awhile.

Robz votes are scummy in that they aren't based on anything but not being here.  Robz's "I'm busy IRL" did come in the game thread and not the VLA thread, so it is possible he's lying, I guess, but has anyone really played that card (ever?).  It's one thing to not post for awhile and then fudge the excuse as IRL busy-ness, but to proactively lie about a plan to skip some days is a bit over-the-top, and not very Robzlike.

So yeah.  Boo on that whole thought process.

I am a good ash-reader? Since when? I remember Breaking Bad game it was awful back then.

Also I am not trying to lynch Robz.

I'd say yes.  Well, in that you always think I'm town, so you are usually right (when I'm town).  So if you think I'm town now, you'd be right.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: ashersky on January 24, 2019, 05:41:55 am
In my brainstormed Cult scenario, assuming the win con explained to us was real, the Cult Leader player could literally just play as a town-only survivor while hoping the gA dies.  That'd meet the win condition (all threats to town gone, only remaining A is her).

The most difficult part of the role is trying to get one specific townie killed while still playing toward town's win condition.  Adding cult members doesn't seem to be important (at least not in the explanation we heard).
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: LaLight on January 24, 2019, 05:49:02 am
there's still a question, why hypercube didn't join the cult and claim the whole same things he did claim
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: hypercube on January 24, 2019, 05:56:43 am
Apologies, I neglected to mention this, but I was told that if I decided to join the cult I would join a QT with the leader at the end of the Day.

Again, this is all based on information I received directly from faust, so I don't think it's possible that I've been misled.

To answer LL's question about why it's pro-town for me to die rather than join the cult and live, if I was actually part of the cult right now there's no reason for you to believe what I'm saying. It's very possible that eventually cooperation between town and the cult will help town win the game, and that cooperation is probably impossible unless town actually knows that the cult's win condition aligns with ours, since claiming such would be an obvious play for a non-town aligned cult.

Regarding the rA, bA, gA stuff, that's certainly one possibility. The other possibility that I could think of is that everyone who joins the cult becomes Anaander Mianaai, and in order for the cult to win all of the non-leader members must die before the end of the game. I think that's less likely, but it's worth considering.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: hypercube on January 24, 2019, 06:02:41 am
If I had a strong PR (especially one which could be used to protect the leader) I probably would have joined the cult. As I'm a VT, I can't protect the leader other than with my voice and my vote (which probably would end up looking scummy), and I'm not super necessary for catching scum. I don't exactly have a long history of making good reads, after all. Additionally my wagon was getting a good amount of action D1 so my flip helps town a bit in that way as well.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: hypercube on January 24, 2019, 06:08:02 am
Anyways vote: LL starting a wagon on someone while openly stating you have no intention of lynching them is scummy. Probably not understanding why pro-town things are pro-town is also not indicative of a town mindset.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on January 24, 2019, 06:09:52 am
Other news: I'm happy to continue the robz wagon as a proderator, but am conflicted now. The timing of the recent robz votes has a whiff of scum-pushing easy wagon.

TBH, I was tempted to throw a vote on the pile, since I have to get a vote down somewhere, and I'm still torn about where else to put it. Also, I think accepting unapologetic extended lurker play is bad for mafia on this site overall. Robz has made his public identity known on this site before, so I've read some of his real-life work. The fact I saw him mentioned by name in an article shared by a UK-based friend of a completely different political flavour in the past day or two makes me suspect that Robz may well be busy right now!

Anyway, I think we have sufficiently more information now than D1 that policy-lynching isn't really the best option. Can we go back to your hunch about Joth and Mail-mi? If you're suspicious that their behaviour means that one or other could be scum, would you put ~40% or so on each of them being some kind of scum? Is there anyone in the game you think is more than 40% likely to be scum? If not, why not scumhunt along those lines instead of pushing a lurker lynch?

PPE 9 (work keeps getting in the way...!)
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Haddock on January 24, 2019, 07:10:26 am
Anyways vote: LL starting a wagon on someone while openly stating you have no intention of lynching them is scummy. Probably not understanding why pro-town things are pro-town is also not indicative of a town mindset.
To be fair to LL, the wagon already existed.  I do agree that her recent behaviour is fairly scummy, though.

Other news: I'm happy to continue the robz wagon as a proderator, but am conflicted now. The timing of the recent robz votes has a whiff of scum-pushing easy wagon.

TBH, I was tempted to throw a vote on the pile, since I have to get a vote down somewhere, and I'm still torn about where else to put it. Also, I think accepting unapologetic extended lurker play is bad for mafia on this site overall. Robz has made his public identity known on this site before, so I've read some of his real-life work. The fact I saw him mentioned by name in an article shared by a UK-based friend of a completely different political flavour in the past day or two makes me suspect that Robz may well be busy right now!

Anyway, I think we have sufficiently more information now than D1 that policy-lynching isn't really the best option. Can we go back to your hunch about Joth and Mail-mi? If you're suspicious that their behaviour means that one or other could be scum, would you put ~40% or so on each of them being some kind of scum? Is there anyone in the game you think is more than 40% likely to be scum? If not, why not scumhunt along those lines instead of pushing a lurker lynch?

PPE 9 (work keeps getting in the way...!)
Weird that you would say you were thinking of throwing a vote on the pile and then scold me for having a vote there.
The bolded part is a fairly bad misrepresentation, I think I've made it clear that I was leaving my vote there as a motivational tool and in the absence of something better.

Also, no I wouldn't agree that there's a 40% chance of either being scum.  Maybe 25-30?  The fight makes them both look bad, but it doesn't make them look "80%-chance of at least one being scum" bad.


If it helps, here are my reads:

Slight-to-Moderate scum:
Swan, joth, Lalight, in approximately ascending order of scumminess.

Slight scum:
Space, Robz

Very slight scum:
mail-mi

Null:
Anyone not mentioned elsewhere on this list

Slight town:
Glooble, ash

Moderate town:
e

Strong town:
hyper, unless and until end of day proves otherwise.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Haddock on January 24, 2019, 07:11:02 am
mmf.

I guess in light of the above, vote: lalight
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: LaLight on January 24, 2019, 07:18:43 am
this is interesting. As soon as I really think i can see a bigger picture and feel like i get more useful, I get a wagon
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: LaLight on January 24, 2019, 07:19:52 am
the idea behind wagoning Robz was that if he comes after vla and sees a wagon on him, if he is scum, he might've slipped, but whatever. I thought it was a good idea and try to contribute. Let's go back to vote: 2.71828.....
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: LaLight on January 24, 2019, 07:21:01 am
although I now start to feel that Haddock and Space are scums, because of their exchange and because one of them is quick to vote me and one of them defends me. This looks like finding a convenient mislynch target and cooperating to look townier
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: 2.71828..... on January 24, 2019, 07:30:27 am
I like the case against LaLight, and LaLight's reactions haven't done anything to scream town at me.

Vote: LaLight
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Glooble on January 24, 2019, 07:34:44 am
None of LaLightís reactions are giving me any desire to change my vote.

I have been thinking about the possibility of an e/ash scum team. It seems like the most plausible explanation for ashís not dying from the lynch and claiming not to know about it. But I definitely donít think the possibility is high enough that we should go after either of them today. I just donít want to fall into the trap of treating them as IC.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Glooble on January 24, 2019, 07:52:39 am
To expand a bit, the only reason Iím still suspicious of ash (and therefore e, as I otherwise have a very strong townread on e) is the fact that she didnít die from the lynch. I canít think of any plausible explanation for that other than it was her power and sheís lying about it. If someone who has played more mafia with weird setups than I have has another possible explanation, I would love to hear it.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on January 24, 2019, 08:01:16 am
Geeez this game gets active at night!

vote: LaLight

For so many reasons, really. Hate the Robz vote. (But seriously Robz, get involved or replace out!)

I think this is L-2

Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on January 24, 2019, 08:24:11 am
To expand a bit, the only reason Iím still suspicious of ash (and therefore e, as I otherwise have a very strong townread on e) is the fact that she didnít die from the lynch. I canít think of any plausible explanation for that other than it was her power and sheís lying about it. If someone who has played more mafia with weird setups than I have has another possible explanation, I would love to hear it.

I agree itís hard to figure out. Ashís explanation that itís part of Mcmcís role doesnít make a lot of sense. Is it meant to work on scum Nks? On the hammer voter? Does it make any sense with mcmcís character?

Maybe we should seriously consider LaLightís suggestion that scum has a dayvig thatís balanced by not getting their nightkill? That would fit the facts. But being both hated and lynchproof is such a weird combo.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: LaLight on January 24, 2019, 08:34:28 am
alright then

I am Queter, a Radch-Aligned Shy Bugged Compulsive Visitor. I have to visit someone every night. If I don't get targeted by anyone and my Visit will be successful, I will become Self-Aligned with powers and win condition yet unknown. Bugged part of my role is that if investigated I will return Human or AI result with 50% probability for each. N1 I targeted Haddock and nothing happened.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: faust on January 24, 2019, 08:53:54 am
Vote Count 2.3

jotheonah (1): mail-mi
LaLight (5): Glooble, hypercube, Haddock, 2.71828....., jotheonah
Robz888 (1): Awaclus
2.71828..... (1): LaLight

Not Voting (5): SpaceAnemone, DatSwan, WestCoastDidds, Robz888, ashersky

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch. Day 2 ends on January 29, 2019, 01:00:00 am.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on January 24, 2019, 09:06:32 am
I have no idea what to make of this claim. Do you feel it informs any of your actions?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Glooble on January 24, 2019, 09:10:49 am
alright then

I am Queter, a Radch-Aligned Shy Bugged Compulsive Visitor. I have to visit someone every night. If I don't get targeted by anyone and my Visit will be successful, I will become Self-Aligned with powers and win condition yet unknown. Bugged part of my role is that if investigated I will return Human or AI result with 50% probability for each. N1 I targeted Haddock and nothing happened.

I have no memory of this character. Someone else who has read the books, remind me?

This seems like kind of a weird fake claim for faust to have given a scum player. Unless faust designed the set-up semi-randomly and just used unused power roles for fake claims.

The only way I could see to corroborate this is if someone came forward and said they targeted LL with something last night. I don't know if that's a good idea though, since such a claim might help scum direct their next shot (even if said player doesn't specify what they targeted LL with, which I think it goes without saying they should not.)

We still have five days, lets take our time and get this right.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: hypercube on January 24, 2019, 09:22:57 am
There's this, which seems to indicate that joth had some sort of interaction with LL last night.

A couple things.
3) I donít want to force anyone to claim, but my power could help explain the lack of a nightkill iff LaLight is bulletproof or was targeted with protection.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on January 24, 2019, 09:54:14 am
There's this, which seems to indicate that joth had some sort of interaction with LL last night.

A couple things.
3) I donít want to force anyone to claim, but my power could help explain the lack of a nightkill iff LaLight is bulletproof or was targeted with protection.

My role uses MtG technology -- I target one player and name one player. I named LaLight, but didn't target her. However, it's possible I redirected an action pointed at someone else to LaLight. I can claim more if necessary, but I'd rather not.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on January 24, 2019, 09:59:42 am
I have no memory of this character. Someone else who has read the books, remind me?

I looked it up. Queter is the sister of Uran, a field worker from the planet that Atheok station orbits. She's involved in the subplot about Fosyf's heir Raughd.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on January 24, 2019, 10:00:33 am
Regarding the rA, bA, gA stuff, that's certainly one possibility. The other possibility that I could think of is that everyone who joins the cult becomes Anaander Mianaai, and in order for the cult to win all of the non-leader members must die before the end of the game. I think that's less likely, but it's worth considering.

I think that is highly likely.  The expansionist Aanander (bA) that is recruiting would want to defeat scum, since they are a threat to humans, but would need to be alive at the end. I don't know that the other members would have to die, but rather that expansionist Aanander would need to be alive. The cult QT is interesting. In the books there are lots of different communication channels and I wonder if there may be side conversations happening among different sets of folks. Is there some way that we could help leverage that for town?

I don't remember Queter, either, Glooble.  I can go back and look in the book when I get home from work.

One things that LL says is that he will get a result that returns human or AI. I wonder why this matters? That distinction seems meaningless to me.  The AIs are town (they love their humans) and the scum are likely aliens since Hyper's info suggests that Scum is not the expansionist Aanander (my initial guess at what form the scum would take), so neither human or AI.

I am ready to vote for LL, but I am super wary of the hated/loved mechanics and another potential quick lynch so I am not going to do that now unless we are ready to be committed to that decision. (Which is what you were picking up at #645, LL. I said it some time earlier, too. Wariness about how the vote/lynch thresholds are configured that makes me hesitant).

@Joth....help me out. What is MtG technology? What is the different between naming and targeting, if you can say without revealing what you'd rather not?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on January 24, 2019, 10:02:40 am
I have no memory of this character. Someone else who has read the books, remind me?

I looked it up. Queter is the sister of Uran, a field worker from the planet that Atheok station orbits. She's involved in the subplot about Fosyf's heir Raughd.

Oh, yeah. She goes to work on the station while her sister is on trial. Hmmm....still more minor than I would have expected if I was making a list of 14 characters, especially if there are VTs.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Glooble on January 24, 2019, 10:04:06 am
I do not believe the aliens are the scum faction.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: hypercube on January 24, 2019, 10:04:24 am
Oh yeah, I may as well claim that I am not an AI. I suppose human vs. AI could have some impact on who the cult can recruit.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Glooble on January 24, 2019, 10:04:44 am
I have no memory of this character. Someone else who has read the books, remind me?

I looked it up. Queter is the sister of Uran, a field worker from the planet that Atheok station orbits. She's involved in the subplot about Fosyf's heir Raughd.

Oh, yeah. She goes to work on the station while her sister is on trial. Hmmm....still more minor than I would have expected if I was making a list of 14 characters, especially if there are VTs.

Which would support it being a fake claim.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: hypercube on January 24, 2019, 10:08:49 am
LL's claim doesn't make sense. The mechanism for her alignment claim, as I understand it, is that her alignment would change if her visit is blocked or if no-one targets her. That contradicts the setup:

Quote
Noone's alignment can change without their consent.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on January 24, 2019, 10:10:38 am
@Joth....help me out. What is MtG technology? What is the different between naming and targeting, if you can say without revealing what you'd rather not?

I was being a little opaque there. In Magic: The Gathering, it's really important whether a card actually uses the word "target". In certain circumstances, when the game wants you to choose something but without the baggage associated with targeting (like being thwarted by Hexproof), it uses "name" instead. The way faust worded my power felt like he was familiar with MtG and that there's a meaningful distinction between naming and targeting. So I explicitly named but did not target LaLight.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Glooble on January 24, 2019, 10:20:11 am
LL's claim doesn't make sense. The mechanism for her alignment claim, as I understand it, is that her alignment would change if her visit is blocked or if no-one targets her. That contradicts the setup:

Quote
Noone's alignment can change without their consent.


This is a good point, especially if she has to visit someone.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on January 24, 2019, 10:23:12 am
hypercube: since it looks like this day might end early, is there anything else you want to say before you bow out of this game? Final reads list, etc?

We should make sure no one hammers anyone until you feel like you've said your peace.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on January 24, 2019, 10:25:23 am
LL's claim doesn't make sense. The mechanism for her alignment claim, as I understand it, is that her alignment would change if her visit is blocked or if no-one targets her. That contradicts the setup:

Quote
Noone's alignment can change without their consent.


This is a good point, especially if she has to visit someone.

Yeah, seconded. I'd just started worrying about the forced alignment change aspect too.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on January 24, 2019, 10:27:40 am
So many interesting things!

Glooble, who do you think the scum faction are?

Hyper- I think this idea of AIs not being able to be recruited is really interesting and would be consistent with how the AIs are. They exist, they are town, but they don't really have affiliations because they have to serve whoever is using them. Mcmc, as the Mercy of Kalr, would have been an AI, I think. So, if anyone interacted with her before she was killed, you might have some insight into this.

Joth- thanks for the explanation. My husband plays MtG but I haven't in forever. The distinction between naming and targeting seems important if some of the motion detectors get results for someone targeting, but not other actions.

I don't know what I make of all this, except that I think there is a good chance LL's claim is fake.

PPE: 2
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: LaLight on January 24, 2019, 10:30:02 am
Ok, i canít quote the qt but there is a short piece iíve read differently. I apparently may decline, but i have no idea what happens in this case. Assume death

From my standpoint lynching me is terrible, but from yours you are losing one town who may as well become the liability. So go ahead
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: LaLight on January 24, 2019, 10:38:35 am
I have no memory of this character. Someone else who has read the books, remind me?

I looked it up. Queter is the sister of Uran, a field worker from the planet that Atheok station orbits. She's involved in the subplot about Fosyf's heir Raughd.

Oh, yeah. She goes to work on the station while her sister is on trial. Hmmm....still more minor than I would have expected if I was making a list of 14 characters, especially if there are VTs.

Knowing faust and being mod myself, i know that making 14 significant characters and leaving some insignificant to make them fakeclaims is a terrible idea. This doesnít and shouldnít work. Because of that would, flavor would have a bearing. If anything this is a minor point towards me being town
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: hypercube on January 24, 2019, 10:40:01 am
Ok, i canít quote the qt but there is a short piece iíve read differently. I apparently may decline, but i have no idea what happens in this case. Assume death

From my standpoint lynching me is terrible, but from yours you are losing one town who may as well become the liability. So go ahead

Yeah, given my experience I would guess that the other option is death. That's not such a bad option if you think town is more likely to win than you are to survive.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on January 24, 2019, 10:42:51 am
alright then

I am Queter, a Radch-Aligned Shy Bugged Compulsive Visitor. I have to visit someone every night. If I don't get targeted by anyone and my Visit will be successful, I will become Self-Aligned with powers and win condition yet unknown. Bugged part of my role is that if investigated I will return Human or AI result with 50% probability for each. N1 I targeted Haddock and nothing happened.

LL, can you help me understand this better? You visited Haddock, but your visit was not successful since you did not become Self-aligned? (Is targeted the same as visited?)
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: 2.71828..... on January 24, 2019, 10:44:17 am
Very interesting.

Unvote until I have more time to think about it and reread some
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Glooble on January 24, 2019, 10:45:16 am

Glooble, who do you think the scum faction are?


Probably the rogue faction of Anander Miannani, and the town-aligned faction of Anander Miannani is the one Breq is working for in the books.


The aliens wouldn't make much sense as scum. They're not the primary antagonists of the story. The translators are basically good guys, though their presence complicates things for Breq.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on January 24, 2019, 10:45:58 am
The bugged part of the claim would be a great scum fake claim, if scum thinks there is an AI cop in the setup. And if they think AI-ness corresponds at all to alignment.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: hypercube on January 24, 2019, 10:46:25 am
hypercube: since it looks like this day might end early, is there anything else you want to say before you bow out of this game? Final reads list, etc?

We should make sure no one hammers anyone until you feel like you've said your peace.

A few thoughts about ash and E that I guess I should get out there. Glooble bringing up ash not dying when we lynched her reminded me that that was pretty weird. Ash's suggested explanation that it had something to do with mcmc's role isn't really satisfying.

I'm still happy to treat them as town for today but I don't think they should escape scrutiny just because of E's cop claim. For example it's definitely possible that ash is town and E is scum; I don't think that's likely given their other actions but their alignments aren't absolutely tied together. Also I assume ash will have to full claim at some point and it'll be important to really go back and check that claim against the things she's said earlier today.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on January 24, 2019, 10:53:07 am

Glooble, who do you think the scum faction are?


Probably the rogue faction of Anander Miannani, and the town-aligned faction of Anander Miannani is the one Breq is working for in the books.

The aliens wouldn't make much sense as scum. They're not the primary antagonists of the story. The translators are basically good guys, though their presence complicates things for Breq.

Agreed that alines don't make sense as scum, but then what do you do with Hyper's explanation that he is being recruited by Aanander- which by your thoughts (and mine) suggest are the bad guys? Scum wouldn't have that much power, would they? How do we parse this?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on January 24, 2019, 10:54:33 am
Oh, yeah!  Why didn't Asher die? His role didn't have that power, I don't think.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Glooble on January 24, 2019, 10:56:16 am

Glooble, who do you think the scum faction are?


Probably the rogue faction of Anander Miannani, and the town-aligned faction of Anander Miannani is the one Breq is working for in the books.

The aliens wouldn't make much sense as scum. They're not the primary antagonists of the story. The translators are basically good guys, though their presence complicates things for Breq.

Agreed that alines don't make sense as scum, but then what do you do with Hyper's explanation that he is being recruited by Aanander- which by your thoughts (and mine) suggest are the bad guys? Scum wouldn't have that much power, would they? How do we parse this?


Cube was targeted by the "good" Anander. Scum is led by the bad Anander. I guess there would have to be a third Anander for the cult's win-con not to be redundant. With any other flavor I would say it's ridiculous but it's part of what makes the Ancillary books so fun.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: mail-mi on January 24, 2019, 10:57:17 am
Hey y'all, I have so much to do today (irl day) that I won't be on the forums at all. Got a lot of catching up to do, will probably have a lot more by the time tomorrow comes.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on January 24, 2019, 10:57:54 am
Here's the thing. If there's a survivor, that's the most likely person to have lynchproof.

What if ash is lying and hated is NOT part of her role but lynchproof IS? Maybe she got hated N0 from the same person who gave me hated today. It does seem weird that that person didn't counterclaim when ash said it was part of her role, but some people really don't like to claim.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: hypercube on January 24, 2019, 11:02:39 am
Here's the thing. If there's a survivor, that's the most likely person to have lynchproof.

What if ash is lying and hated is NOT part of her role but lynchproof IS? Maybe she got hated N0 from the same person who gave me hated today. It does seem weird that that person didn't counterclaim when ash said it was part of her role, but some people really don't like to claim.

I agree that lynchproof points to survivor or SK, but then there's no reason for E to fake a cop result and protect ash.

Your hated was announced in the thread while hers wasn't, so it makes sense that they'd be from different sources.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on January 24, 2019, 11:06:19 am
That's a good point.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Signups open!)
Post by: hypercube on January 24, 2019, 11:20:44 am
For those analysing the flavour, don't forget this:

The setting is roughly at the start of the second book.

which might be helpful.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on January 24, 2019, 12:48:32 pm

Glooble, who do you think the scum faction are?


Probably the rogue faction of Anander Miannani, and the town-aligned faction of Anander Miannani is the one Breq is working for in the books.

The aliens wouldn't make much sense as scum. They're not the primary antagonists of the story. The translators are basically good guys, though their presence complicates things for Breq.

Agreed that alines don't make sense as scum, but then what do you do with Hyper's explanation that he is being recruited by Aanander- which by your thoughts (and mine) suggest are the bad guys? Scum wouldn't have that much power, would they? How do we parse this?


Cube was targeted by the "good" Anander. Scum is led by the bad Anander. I guess there would have to be a third Anander for the cult's win-con not to be redundant. With any other flavor I would say it's ridiculous but it's part of what makes the Ancillary books so fun.

Oh, this is interesting and I need to think about it some more so I am putting it here to remember.  So, if Hyper had agreed, he's have still been town but he would have been tied to a leader who is not Breq (presumably), so the only thing different about being VT and the change would have been the precarious position of having his fate tied to someone else's? Is that how it would have worked? You're right that it is what is interesting about the books (the house divided) and faust would likely maintain that. So, there isn't a third party, just a self-interested leader?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: hypercube on January 24, 2019, 01:18:08 pm
Oh, this is interesting and I need to think about it some more so I am putting it here to remember.  So, if Hyper had agreed, he's have still been town but he would have been tied to a leader who is not Breq (presumably), so the only thing different about being VT and the change would have been the precarious position of having his fate tied to someone else's? Is that how it would have worked? You're right that it is what is interesting about the books (the house divided) and faust would likely maintain that. So, there isn't a third party, just a self-interested leader?

No, it's explicitly an alignment change, so I would be part of a different faction with a different win condition than town's. The new win condition doesn't completely overlap with town's: town is required to have at least one Radch-aligned player alive at the end of the game. So there's probably some possibility that the cult ends up as the only faction left alive in which case I may regret the decisions I have made.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on January 24, 2019, 01:30:02 pm
The way faust worded my power felt like he was familiar with MtG and that there's a meaningful distinction between naming and targeting. So I explicitly named but did not target LaLight.

How does your name-not-target thing work with a motion detector?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on January 24, 2019, 01:40:27 pm
The way faust worded my power felt like he was familiar with MtG and that there's a meaningful distinction between naming and targeting. So I explicitly named but did not target LaLight.

How does your name-not-target thing work with a motion detector?

I have no idea.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Glooble on January 24, 2019, 01:42:34 pm
I would assume it depends on the exact wording of the motion detector role pm.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Robz888 on January 24, 2019, 03:51:12 pm
Hi guys, see my note in VLA if you've wondered where I am. I think I should have some catch up time tomorrow at the latest.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: hypercube on January 24, 2019, 04:27:53 pm
One thought about LL's claimed role: since we know there's a survivor-like faction in the game already, it seems likely that "self-aligned" means that LL would turn into some sort of SK if she changes alignment.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on January 24, 2019, 04:36:30 pm
One thought about LL's claimed role: since we know there's a survivor-like faction in the game already, it seems likely that "self-aligned" means that LL would turn into some sort of SK if she changes alignment.

Or a Jester. Or is Jester considered bastard?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on January 24, 2019, 06:26:54 pm
The way faust worded my power felt like he was familiar with MtG and that there's a meaningful distinction between naming and targeting. So I explicitly named but did not target LaLight.

How does your name-not-target thing work with a motion detector?

I have no idea.

Well, mcmc flipped motion detector, meaning faust must have had to made rulings ahead of time for how it would work, so I would have expected the wording of you role and its "MtG" mechanic not to be ambiguous in that respect. At worst, though, there's now enough public information for you to ask him in your QT.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on January 24, 2019, 08:08:48 pm
Does anyone know of a previous game with a cult mechanic or a robust third faction that I can read? I feel behind in terms of knowing how things work in that regard and I donít want to slow us down.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: DatSwan on January 24, 2019, 08:40:37 pm
PPE a ton of catch up since LL claim. But for now i am essentially edged on believing all claims to at least an extent. Reasons to follow.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: LaLight on January 25, 2019, 02:06:08 am
One thought about LL's claimed role: since we know there's a survivor-like faction in the game already, it seems likely that "self-aligned" means that LL would turn into some sort of SK if she changes alignment.

Or a Jester. Or is Jester considered bastard?

Jester is bastard indeed
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: LaLight on January 25, 2019, 02:06:46 am
Does anyone know of a previous game with a cult mechanic or a robust third faction that I can read? I feel behind in terms of knowing how things work in that regard and I donít want to slow us down.

Try Breaking Bad... although it's not really an awesome example of this, but this game somehow reminds me of that one. Also it was awesome.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: LaLight on January 25, 2019, 02:08:45 am
alright then

I am Queter, a Radch-Aligned Shy Bugged Compulsive Visitor. I have to visit someone every night. If I don't get targeted by anyone and my Visit will be successful, I will become Self-Aligned with powers and win condition yet unknown. Bugged part of my role is that if investigated I will return Human or AI result with 50% probability for each. N1 I targeted Haddock and nothing happened.

LL, can you help me understand this better? You visited Haddock, but your visit was not successful since you did not become Self-aligned? (Is targeted the same as visited?)

Well, I targeted Haddock. I have no idea if I was visiting him in the end (I might've been roleblocked or I might've been visited). Or maybe Haddovck commuted or was rolestopped. I have no idea, but I did not have a choice to change alignment, basically I didn't get any response
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Awaclus on January 25, 2019, 02:49:36 am
Vote: DatSwan
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Haddock on January 25, 2019, 05:48:13 am
LL's claim doesn't make sense. The mechanism for her alignment claim, as I understand it, is that her alignment would change if her visit is blocked or if no-one targets her. That contradicts the setup:

Quote
Noone's alignment can change without their consent.


This is a good point, especially if she has to visit someone.

Yeah, seconded. I'd just started worrying about the forced alignment change aspect too.
Read again, folks:

LL's alignment would change if she successfully visited. 
So her alignment would have changed if her role worked as she intended.  That is, LL's role is essentially an option to change alignment (unless blocked or something).   So yeah, given that it is LL's choice to attempt to change alignment, the claim definitely fits within the "consent" aspect.


Then again if we don't know the wincon of self-aligned!LL, lynching LL may well be as a good a choice as any: either LL is lying scum or LL is a semi-towny with an option to change alignment to something unknown at some point in the future, an ability which she has already demonstrated a desire to use.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: hypercube on January 25, 2019, 05:53:53 am
LL's claim doesn't make sense. The mechanism for her alignment claim, as I understand it, is that her alignment would change if her visit is blocked or if no-one targets her. That contradicts the setup:

Quote
Noone's alignment can change without their consent.


This is a good point, especially if she has to visit someone.

Yeah, seconded. I'd just started worrying about the forced alignment change aspect too.
Read again, folks:

LL's alignment would change if she successfully visited. 
So her alignment would have changed if her role worked as she intended.  That is, LL's role is essentially an option to change alignment (unless blocked or something).   So yeah, given that it is LL's choice to attempt to change alignment, the claim definitely fits within the "consent" aspect.


Then again if we don't know the wincon of self-aligned!LL, lynching LL may well be as a good a choice as any: either LL is lying scum or LL is a semi-towny with an option to change alignment to something unknown at some point in the future, an ability which she has already demonstrated a desire to use.

Right, I misread that part, but you missed where she claims to be a compulsive vistor, so to visit or not can't be the choice part of the alignment change. For her to stay town her visit must be blocked or someone must target her.

I am still inclined to lynch LL unless someone claims they targeted her last night.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Haddock on January 25, 2019, 05:57:42 am
alright then

I am Queter, a Radch-Aligned Shy Bugged Compulsive Visitor. I have to visit someone every night. If I don't get targeted by anyone and my Visit will be successful, I will become Self-Aligned with powers and win condition yet unknown. Bugged part of my role is that if investigated I will return Human or AI result with 50% probability for each. N1 I targeted Haddock and nothing happened.

LL, can you help me understand this better? You visited Haddock, but your visit was not successful since you did not become Self-aligned? (Is targeted the same as visited?)

Well, I targeted Haddock. I have no idea if I was visiting him in the end (I might've been roleblocked or I might've been visited). Or maybe Haddovck commuted or was rolestopped. I have no idea, but I did not have a choice to change alignment, basically I didn't get any response

Nothing I did would have caused you to be blocked or stopped or anything.


LL's claim doesn't make sense. The mechanism for her alignment claim, as I understand it, is that her alignment would change if her visit is blocked or if no-one targets her. That contradicts the setup:

Quote
Noone's alignment can change without their consent.


This is a good point, especially if she has to visit someone.

Yeah, seconded. I'd just started worrying about the forced alignment change aspect too.
Read again, folks:

LL's alignment would change if she successfully visited. 
So her alignment would have changed if her role worked as she intended.  That is, LL's role is essentially an option to change alignment (unless blocked or something).   So yeah, given that it is LL's choice to attempt to change alignment, the claim definitely fits within the "consent" aspect.


Then again if we don't know the wincon of self-aligned!LL, lynching LL may well be as a good a choice as any: either LL is lying scum or LL is a semi-towny with an option to change alignment to something unknown at some point in the future, an ability which she has already demonstrated a desire to use.

Right, I misread that part, but you missed where she claims to be a compulsive vistor, so to visit or not can't be the choice part of the alignment change. For her to stay town her visit must be blocked or someone must target her.

I am still inclined to lynch LL unless someone claims they targeted her last night.
You're right, I did miss the compulsive part.  That does look extremely bad.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: ashersky on January 25, 2019, 06:24:52 am
The claim as stated doesnít fit the rules. Assuming no mod error, itís fake or mistaken.

What is the motivation for scum to fake claim that specific thing?  What scum knowledge is it based on. I think those are some questions Iím pondering.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: LaLight on January 25, 2019, 06:38:48 am
Ok, i canít quote the qt but there is a short piece iíve read differently. I apparently may decline, but i have no idea what happens in this case. Assume death

From my standpoint lynching me is terrible, but from yours you are losing one town who may as well become the liability. So go ahead

have everyone misread this?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Haddock on January 25, 2019, 06:58:42 am
Ok, i canít quote the qt but there is a short piece iíve read differently. I apparently may decline, but i have no idea what happens in this case. Assume death

From my standpoint lynching me is terrible, but from yours you are losing one town who may as well become the liability. So go ahead

have everyone misread this?
I didn't understand what this post of yours meant until now.

In any case it doesn't help us all that much since you only mentioned it after the discrepancy had been pointed out
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Haddock on January 25, 2019, 07:02:36 am
Ironic that ash keeps talking about giving the town an extra lynch day 1 (as if thatís protown) But she has in fact denied us a day one lynch by not dying.

Iím tempted to ask ash to fullclaim. Iím also tempted to go ahead and try to finish what we started day one.

Well, I didn't plan on me being the extra lynch, nor did I know I wouldn't die.

The extra lynch should have been whomever was #2 on the lynch list -- so one of the folks with two votes.  Or it looks like the new Galzria would have been coming after you.

Regardless of my not dying, we did have two "lynches" on D1.  We just didn't get two flips.

As for full claiming, not a good idea.  Remaining number of shots and when/how I can use them is what scum wants to know.  Scum also wants to lynch me.

I've claimed what needs to be known (through words or actions).  Hetnys, sometimes dayvig, sometimes hated.  Everything else is not related to my role (not dying from lynch, surviving last night).
I'd like to return to this just briefly, as a side-note.  Ash I've just run a search on the thread and you absolutely hadn't mentioned anything about your hatedness until this post quoted here.  Any clarification you have would be great; can we confirm with you for instance and in particular that your role was responsible for "both halves" of your doubly-hatedness yesterday?  (ie. your role is sometimes doublehated, not just sometimes hated.)
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on January 25, 2019, 08:33:53 am
LaLetís LaLynch LaLight. This seems more and more cut and dried.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: LaLight on January 25, 2019, 08:40:18 am
LaLetís LaLynch LaLight. This seems more and more cut and dried.

I will steal that after the game ends, to my sig. Please remind

Also don't
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on January 25, 2019, 09:10:02 am
I'd like to return to this just briefly, as a side-note.  Ash I've just run a search on the thread and you absolutely hadn't mentioned anything about your hatedness until this post quoted here.  Any clarification you have would be great; can we confirm with you for instance and in particular that your role was responsible for "both halves" of your doubly-hatedness yesterday?  (ie. your role is sometimes doublehated, not just sometimes hated.)

The post Haddock quoted was #472. There's this from Ash at #467:

Also, nice speculation by all on the odd wagon size (no sarcasm here).  But I took only 5 votes to lynch.

As for why I didn't die -- no idea.  Assuming someone protected me from the NK as I believe I'm scum's top NK priority.

He got called on that by WCD, and then clarified at #482. However, I'd definitely felt like his later tone implied that he was asserting that he'd been explicit, whereas I think "I took only 5 votes to lynch" is more readily interpreted as an observation of that fact that he was declared lynched when there were only 5 votes on him than it is as a statement of causality.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Haddock on January 25, 2019, 09:54:32 am
I'd like to return to this just briefly, as a side-note.  Ash I've just run a search on the thread and you absolutely hadn't mentioned anything about your hatedness until this post quoted here.  Any clarification you have would be great; can we confirm with you for instance and in particular that your role was responsible for "both halves" of your doubly-hatedness yesterday?  (ie. your role is sometimes doublehated, not just sometimes hated.)

The post Haddock quoted was #472. There's this from Ash at #467:

Also, nice speculation by all on the odd wagon size (no sarcasm here).  But I took only 5 votes to lynch.

As for why I didn't die -- no idea.  Assuming someone protected me from the NK as I believe I'm scum's top NK priority.

He got called on that by WCD, and then clarified at #482. However, I'd definitely felt like his later tone implied that he was asserting that he'd been explicit, whereas I think "I took only 5 votes to lynch" is more readily interpreted as an observation of that fact that he was declared lynched when there were only 5 votes on him than it is as a statement of causality.
I absolutely interpreted it as a statement of observation rather than any kind of claim.

And I missed it during the recent search because I Ctrl+F'd for "hated" and also for "hetnys".
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on January 25, 2019, 11:00:59 am
Does anyone know of a previous game with a cult mechanic or a robust third faction that I can read? I feel behind in terms of knowing how things work in that regard and I donít want to slow us down.

Try Breaking Bad... although it's not really an awesome example of this, but this game somehow reminds me of that one. Also it was awesome.

Roger that....gonna go read!
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Glooble on January 25, 2019, 11:54:55 am
Vote: DatSwan

Care to expound a little? If your intention is to start a wagon, its traditional to make a case. Especially when the town already has a strong wagon going on another player, a wagon which you haven't really weighed in on.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Awaclus on January 25, 2019, 12:03:32 pm
Vote: DatSwan

Care to expound a little? If your intention is to start a wagon, its traditional to make a case. Especially when the town already has a strong wagon going on another player, a wagon which you haven't really weighed in on.

Are you DatSwan's scum partner?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Glooble on January 25, 2019, 12:08:27 pm
Vote: DatSwan

Care to expound a little? If your intention is to start a wagon, its traditional to make a case. Especially when the town already has a strong wagon going on another player, a wagon which you haven't really weighed in on.

Are you DatSwan's scum partner?

Has this level of combativeness worked out well for you in other games? Genuinely curious.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Awaclus on January 25, 2019, 12:09:26 pm
Eh, I guess it doesn't hurt to weigh in on the LL wagon. I think the wagon is of very low utility and the lynch should happen later in the game if at all, instead of now. If LL is telling the truth, scum isn't going to be opposed to his lynch. If he is scum and he messed up his fakeclaim, scum isn't going to be opposed to his lynch either. Either way, we don't get any useful wagon analysis out of it.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: mail-mi on January 25, 2019, 12:10:11 pm
Eh, I guess it doesn't hurt to weigh in on the LL wagon. I think the wagon is of very low utility and the lynch should happen later in the game if at all, instead of now. If LL is telling the truth, scum isn't going to be opposed to his lynch. If he is scum and he messed up his fakeclaim, scum isn't going to be opposed to his lynch either. Either way, we don't get any useful wagon analysis out of it.

I agree with this statement.

I should have a little bit more time today
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Glooble on January 25, 2019, 12:18:50 pm
Eh, I guess it doesn't hurt to weigh in on the LL wagon. I think the wagon is of very low utility and the lynch should happen later in the game if at all, instead of now. If LL is telling the truth, scum isn't going to be opposed to his lynch. If he is scum and he messed up his fakeclaim, scum isn't going to be opposed to his lynch either. Either way, we don't get any useful wagon analysis out of it.

I don't follow your logic at all.

If she's scum, scum want her to survive because that's how they win. If the other scum aren't defending her its because they think there's more utility in earning town points by being on the scum wagon.

If she does end up town, then I think she's just as informative as any other lynch, plus we're not losing a power that has any utility to town, plus her alignment was probably going to change anyway which likely would have been bad for town.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: mail-mi on January 25, 2019, 12:36:28 pm
Eh, I guess it doesn't hurt to weigh in on the LL wagon. I think the wagon is of very low utility and the lynch should happen later in the game if at all, instead of now. If LL is telling the truth, scum isn't going to be opposed to his lynch. If he is scum and he messed up his fakeclaim, scum isn't going to be opposed to his lynch either. Either way, we don't get any useful wagon analysis out of it.

I don't follow your logic at all.

If she's scum, scum want her to survive because that's how they win. If the other scum aren't defending her its because they think there's more utility in earning town points by being on the scum wagon.

If she does end up town, then I think she's just as informative as any other lynch, plus we're not losing a power that has any utility to town, plus her alignment was probably going to change anyway which likely would have been bad for town.

It's just a very weird fakeclaim for scum to make--it makes town inclined to lynch her. I guess WIFOM, but I'm willing to believe her for now.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Awaclus on January 25, 2019, 12:43:17 pm
If she's scum, scum want her to survive because that's how they win. If the other scum aren't defending her its because they think there's more utility in earning town points by being on the scum wagon.

Here's a list of people who would defend a scum partner who they know just scumslipped:
 -
 -
 -
 -
 -

Oh, and I almost forgot this person:
 -

If she does end up town, then I think she's just as informative as any other lynch, plus we're not losing a power that has any utility to town, plus her alignment was probably going to change anyway which likely would have been bad for town.

The fact that we're "not losing a power that has any utility to town, plus her alignment was probably going to change anyway which likely would have been bad for town" is exactly a part of the reason why the lynch is meaningless. You don't get scum points for pushing the lynch because it's at least an alright lynch from town's perspective.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Haddock on January 25, 2019, 12:47:47 pm
Eh, I guess it doesn't hurt to weigh in on the LL wagon. I think the wagon is of very low utility and the lynch should happen later in the game if at all, instead of now. If LL is telling the truth, scum isn't going to be opposed to his lynch. If he is scum and he messed up his fakeclaim, scum isn't going to be opposed to his lynch either. Either way, we don't get any useful wagon analysis out of it.

I don't follow your logic at all.

If she's scum, scum want her to survive because that's how they win. If the other scum aren't defending her its because they think there's more utility in earning town points by being on the scum wagon.

If she does end up town, then I think she's just as informative as any other lynch, plus we're not losing a power that has any utility to town, plus her alignment was probably going to change anyway which likely would have been bad for town.

It's just a very weird fakeclaim for scum to make--it makes town inclined to lynch her. I guess WIFOM, but I'm willing to believe her for now.
But even if we believe her, why wouldn't we lynch her? 
If she's town and her claim is true then she will shortly become not-town; if anyone is thinking of wasting a role block on Lalight for the rest of the game to prevent her changing, I beg them to think again.


Obviously going elsewhere is fine, but I haven't seen a convincing case on anyone else, so I'm definitely happy with where my vote is right now.  (Yes other people are scummy, but not _that_ scummy.)
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Glooble on January 25, 2019, 12:48:22 pm
If she's scum, scum want her to survive because that's how they win. If the other scum aren't defending her its because they think there's more utility in earning town points by being on the scum wagon.

Here's a list of people who would defend a scum partner who they know just scumslipped:
 -
 -
 -
 -
 -

Oh, and I almost forgot this person:
 -

If she does end up town, then I think she's just as informative as any other lynch, plus we're not losing a power that has any utility to town, plus her alignment was probably going to change anyway which likely would have been bad for town.

The fact that we're "not losing a power that has any utility to town, plus her alignment was probably going to change anyway which likely would have been bad for town" is exactly a part of the reason why the lynch is meaningless. You don't get scum points for pushing the lynch because it's at least an alright lynch from town's perspective.

So you're saying you do think she's scum... but you don't want to lynch her?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Awaclus on January 25, 2019, 12:54:37 pm
So you're saying you do think she's scum... but you don't want to lynch her?

No, I don't know if he's scum or not, that's why I'm considering both of the possible scenarios. In both of the possible scenarios, both town and scum want to be on the wagon so it doesn't tell us anything about anyone's alignment, which is why we should have a more informative lynch today and focus on this later, preferably when we also have more info.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Glooble on January 25, 2019, 01:04:47 pm
So you're saying you do think she's scum... but you don't want to lynch her?

No, I don't know if he's scum or not, that's why I'm considering both of the possible scenarios. In both of the possible scenarios, both town and scum want to be on the wagon so it doesn't tell us anything about anyone's alignment, which is why we should have a more informative lynch today and focus on this later, preferably when we also have more info.

You're not taking into account all the people who were on the wagon before the claim. Information you get about our alignments would be untainted by that knowledge.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Awaclus on January 25, 2019, 01:30:48 pm
So you're saying you do think she's scum... but you don't want to lynch her?

No, I don't know if he's scum or not, that's why I'm considering both of the possible scenarios. In both of the possible scenarios, both town and scum want to be on the wagon so it doesn't tell us anything about anyone's alignment, which is why we should have a more informative lynch today and focus on this later, preferably when we also have more info.

You're not taking into account all the people who were on the wagon before the claim. Information you get about our alignments would be untainted by that knowledge.

Sure, but why not instead get a wagon going where the entire wagon is untainted.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Glooble on January 25, 2019, 01:39:29 pm
So you're saying you do think she's scum... but you don't want to lynch her?

No, I don't know if he's scum or not, that's why I'm considering both of the possible scenarios. In both of the possible scenarios, both town and scum want to be on the wagon so it doesn't tell us anything about anyone's alignment, which is why we should have a more informative lynch today and focus on this later, preferably when we also have more info.

You're not taking into account all the people who were on the wagon before the claim. Information you get about our alignments would be untainted by that knowledge.

Sure, but why not instead get a wagon going where the entire wagon is untainted.

Until that person claims and we're in the same boat.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: hypercube on January 25, 2019, 01:40:42 pm
So you're saying you do think she's scum... but you don't want to lynch her?

No, I don't know if he's scum or not, that's why I'm considering both of the possible scenarios. In both of the possible scenarios, both town and scum want to be on the wagon so it doesn't tell us anything about anyone's alignment, which is why we should have a more informative lynch today and focus on this later, preferably when we also have more info.

Hey look, you're saying no-one would oppose lynching LL but here you (and mail-mi) are opposing it!

Your naked vote on Swan puts 0 pressure on him at this point in the game; if you actually have a case against him you should post that. Right now it looks a lot like you voted for him in order to tempt me to follow since you know I've expressed a scumread on him.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on January 25, 2019, 02:09:11 pm
Eh, I guess it doesn't hurt to weigh in on the LL wagon. I think the wagon is of very low utility and the lynch should happen later in the game if at all, instead of now. If LL is telling the truth, scum isn't going to be opposed to his lynch. If he is scum and he messed up his fakeclaim, scum isn't going to be opposed to his lynch either. Either way, we don't get any useful wagon analysis out of it.

As other people are pointing out, this is ridiculous. But also, the idiom "a bird in the hand is better than two in the bush" is exceptionally true in the world of mafia. Scum knows that putting off a lynch until later is as good as cancelling a lynch because people in these games have short memories and attention spans. If we think we have caught scum, we should lynch. Anything else is anti-town.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Awaclus on January 25, 2019, 02:14:22 pm
Until that person claims and we're in the same boat.

I don't know man, it'll start to get suspicious at some point if everyone claims that their alignment can change to non-town and then messes up the claim.

Hey look, you're saying no-one would oppose lynching LL but here you (and mail-mi) are opposing it!

I can't speak for mail-mi, but I'm not opposed to lynching LL. I'm just saying we should delay it for the time being.

As other people are pointing out, this is ridiculous. But also, the idiom "a bird in the hand is better than two in the bush" is exceptionally true in the world of mafia. Scum knows that putting off a lynch until later is as good as cancelling a lynch because people in these games have short memories and attention spans. If we think we have caught scum, we should lynch. Anything else is anti-town.

Other people are wrong. You can't delete posts so it doesn't matter how long someone's memory is, they can always read the posts again.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Glooble on January 25, 2019, 02:19:14 pm
Until that person claims and we're in the same boat.

I don't know man, it'll start to get suspicious at some point if everyone claims that their alignment can change to non-town and then messes up the claim.



You know what I mean. It won't be this exact thing, but it will be something makes us not want to lynch them that day. Scum will keep claiming whatever they think will keep them from getting lynched. If this works for LL whose to say it won't work for the next person? Or we force a townie to claim a powerful role and then they get Night Killed. Either way its good for scum and bad for us.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Awaclus on January 25, 2019, 02:22:06 pm
Scum will keep claiming whatever they think will keep them from getting lynched.

Great, then we can identify the scum on the basis on who claims something that would make us not want to lynch them. Looks like LaLight isn't scum according to that logic though.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on January 25, 2019, 02:25:54 pm
Scum will keep claiming whatever they think will keep them from getting lynched.

Great, then we can identify the scum on the basis on who claims something that would make us not want to lynch them. Looks like LaLight isn't scum according to that logic though.

The claim appears to have worked on you, mail-mi, and e.

The one thing I'd like to wait a bit for, since we have the time, is Robz to catch up and weigh in. But I don't plan to move my vote.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on January 25, 2019, 02:40:25 pm
I donít think Awa is wrong, exactly. We could wait to lynch LL, but it doesnít seem like there is significant scumminess happening elsewhere. Robz and DatSwan have both been scarce, so perhaps theyíll be able to get out from under on the weekend and can be more engaged. Hard to know. I donít see any reason to hurry a lynch, regardless, so we have time to keep thinking although if feels like weíve stalled somewhat. My vote intention is still there.

I went back and read Breaking Bad because Iím new to sone of these mechanics and on thing someone said was that in RMM games, the most informative stuff usually happens at night. Is that accurate? Do we need to know more about what happened N1 (which began rather abruptly), or do we need more info from N2 before we have a better sense? In that game the fake claims were the keys to the castle. So perhaps we should scrutinize the stuff that doesnít quite make sense (which I think weíve been doing with Hyper and LL).

The day ends at 1 am on Tuesday...so Monday night for the US folks. (This is just to remind me!)
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: LaLight on January 25, 2019, 03:02:21 pm
Do you understand thereís no incentive for me to change alignment now? I do not really want to do it, i can help town. And i wasnít offered to anyway.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on January 25, 2019, 03:11:11 pm
LaLight, if you are town the best thing you can do right now is try to give us another option. Scumhunt. Make a case. I've noticed that that is not something you've chosen to do in response to your wagon and it's part of why I think you are in fact scum.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Haddock on January 25, 2019, 03:27:41 pm
Do you understand thereís no incentive for me to change alignment now? I do not really want to do it, i can help town. And i wasnít offered to anyway.
According to your own claim, you have no choice in the matter; you have no control over your own alignment.  It sucks for you, but you have to see how we are struggling to let that pass.  You are a totally loose cannon.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: mail-mi on January 25, 2019, 03:33:02 pm
Do you understand thereís no incentive for me to change alignment now? I do not really want to do it, i can help town. And i wasnít offered to anyway.
According to your own claim, you have no choice in the matter; you have no control over your own alignment.  It sucks for you, but you have to see how we are struggling to let that pass.  You are a totally loose cannon.

That goes directly against the setup rules. The way I read LaLight's claim was "If I visit someone sucessfully, I then get the choice to switch my alignment." The visiting is compulsive, not the alignment changing. Is that right, LaLight?

Also (I can't believe I'm saying this) everyone should listen to Awaclus because he's making sense right now about Lalight. I am not sad with a LaLight lynch but would be much happier elsewhere (like, say, joth, whose recent posts haven't changed my read on him). Lalight can always be lynched later.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Glooble on January 25, 2019, 03:54:04 pm
But what is actually the advantage to lynching him later as opposed to now?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on January 25, 2019, 03:59:38 pm
But what is actually the advantage to lynching him later as opposed to now?

Dingdingding

Arguing to delay a lynch is a good way to argue against a lynch without looking like you're arguing against a lynch.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on January 25, 2019, 04:00:58 pm
LaLight has done nothing to deserve a pass. If you believe her claim, she has a role that is at best useless and at worst anti-town. If you don't believe her claim, she's scum.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: hypercube on January 25, 2019, 04:16:47 pm
Do you understand thereís no incentive for me to change alignment now? I do not really want to do it, i can help town. And i wasnít offered to anyway.

Personally, I think it's good that there's no way for you to win now if you change alignment so you're forced to do your best to help town if you want to win.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Awaclus on January 25, 2019, 04:22:23 pm
But what is actually the advantage to lynching him later as opposed to now?

1) getting a more informative lynch instead, which is good to get sooner rather than later because of inflation
2) getting other info on LaLight in the meantime
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Awaclus on January 25, 2019, 04:23:30 pm
Arguing to delay a lynch is a good way to argue against a lynch without looking like you're arguing against a lynch.

No it isn't. It's a good way to argue to delay a lynch.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on January 25, 2019, 04:33:20 pm
What makes you think the LaLight flip won't be informative? I think it will be extremely informative.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Awaclus on January 25, 2019, 05:25:28 pm
What makes you think the LaLight flip won't be informative? I think it will be extremely informative.

Because nobody has an incentive to be opposed to his lynch, regardless of anyone's alignment in the equation. I already said as much.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: DatSwan on January 25, 2019, 06:05:45 pm
OK so I have just been playing catchup (sorry) work has been a nightmare. I keep reading up and then realizing a ton of stuff happened while I was gone and then reading again... and etc etc. So I am just gonna post major points here and get to deets later. First off:

alright then

I am Queter, a Radch-Aligned Shy Bugged Compulsive Visitor. I have to visit someone every night. If I don't get targeted by anyone and my Visit will be successful, I will become Self-Aligned with powers and win condition yet unknown. Bugged part of my role is that if investigated I will return Human or AI result with 50% probability for each. N1 I targeted Haddock and nothing happened.

LL, can you help me understand this better? You visited Haddock, but your visit was not successful since you did not become Self-aligned? (Is targeted the same as visited?)

Well, I targeted Haddock. I have no idea if I was visiting him in the end (I might've been roleblocked or I might've been visited). Or maybe Haddovck commuted or was rolestopped. I have no idea, but I did not have a choice to change alignment, basically I didn't get any response

- I do not think this comes as skum. It could come off as a Survivor claim, but it could also come off as a SK claim or skum claim. I think on the spot like LL was, they would of taken a different route as skum in regards to the content of their claim.

- Additionally I know what my role is, and there is a specific part of it that by no means "clears" LL here... but also pushes me in the direction of believing them.

Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Glooble on January 25, 2019, 06:10:59 pm
What makes you think the LaLight flip won't be informative? I think it will be extremely informative.

Because nobody has an incentive to be opposed to his lynch, regardless of anyone's alignment in the equation. I already said as much.

I just donít agree with that. Scum has incentive to oppose it. And look whoís opposing it. You. How about that?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on January 25, 2019, 06:42:24 pm
OK so I have just been playing catchup (sorry) work has been a nightmare. I keep reading up and then realizing a ton of stuff happened while I was gone and then reading again... and etc etc. So I am just gonna post major points here and get to deets later. First off:

alright then

I am Queter, a Radch-Aligned Shy Bugged Compulsive Visitor. I have to visit someone every night. If I don't get targeted by anyone and my Visit will be successful, I will become Self-Aligned with powers and win condition yet unknown. Bugged part of my role is that if investigated I will return Human or AI result with 50% probability for each. N1 I targeted Haddock and nothing happened.

LL, can you help me understand this better? You visited Haddock, but your visit was not successful since you did not become Self-aligned? (Is targeted the same as visited?)

Well, I targeted Haddock. I have no idea if I was visiting him in the end (I might've been roleblocked or I might've been visited). Or maybe Haddovck commuted or was rolestopped. I have no idea, but I did not have a choice to change alignment, basically I didn't get any response

- I do not think this comes as skum. It could come off as a Survivor claim, but it could also come off as a SK claim or skum claim. I think on the spot like LL was, they would of taken a different route as skum in regards to the content of their claim.

- Additionally I know what my role is, and there is a specific part of it that by no means "clears" LL here... but also pushes me in the direction of believing them.

What do you make of the whole ďdoesnít work in the rulesĒ thing?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Awaclus on January 25, 2019, 06:52:08 pm
Scum has incentive to oppose it. And look whoís opposing it. You. How about that?

Not true and not true. Scum does not have an incentive to oppose it, and I'm not opposing it.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Glooble on January 25, 2019, 07:16:36 pm
Scum has incentive to oppose it. And look whoís opposing it. You. How about that?

Not true and not true. Scum does not have an incentive to oppose it, and I'm not opposing it.

Scum might intentionally bus a partner especially if they think defending them is too dangerous but scum is absolutely incentivized to keep themselves alive, especially this early.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Haddock on January 25, 2019, 07:21:20 pm
Oh by the way I keep meaning to say, if I haven't already: there is nothing I did N1 that would have prevented LaLight's claimed thing from happening.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: DatSwan on January 25, 2019, 07:54:15 pm
OK so I have just been playing catchup (sorry) work has been a nightmare. I keep reading up and then realizing a ton of stuff happened while I was gone and then reading again... and etc etc. So I am just gonna post major points here and get to deets later. First off:

alright then

I am Queter, a Radch-Aligned Shy Bugged Compulsive Visitor. I have to visit someone every night. If I don't get targeted by anyone and my Visit will be successful, I will become Self-Aligned with powers and win condition yet unknown. Bugged part of my role is that if investigated I will return Human or AI result with 50% probability for each. N1 I targeted Haddock and nothing happened.

LL, can you help me understand this better? You visited Haddock, but your visit was not successful since you did not become Self-aligned? (Is targeted the same as visited?)

Well, I targeted Haddock. I have no idea if I was visiting him in the end (I might've been roleblocked or I might've been visited). Or maybe Haddovck commuted or was rolestopped. I have no idea, but I did not have a choice to change alignment, basically I didn't get any response

- I do not think this comes as skum. It could come off as a Survivor claim, but it could also come off as a SK claim or skum claim. I think on the spot like LL was, they would of taken a different route as skum in regards to the content of their claim.

- Additionally I know what my role is, and there is a specific part of it that by no means "clears" LL here... but also pushes me in the direction of believing them.

What do you make of the whole ďdoesnít work in the rulesĒ thing?

I think either i am wrong and LL made a mistake when fake claiming (unlikely imo)... or the ďself alignedĒ role would have some sort of variable in the untold part that is similar to hyper cubes (i.e. everything goes through and instead of becoming self aligned automatically they are given some form of choice or parameters). Or the third option where i just donít know - it is the only hold up i currently havenon LL- i keep remembering Lost when they were SK and messed up there claim day 2 there so i am fighting with myself currently
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on January 25, 2019, 08:20:39 pm
Welcome back, Swan! Youíve been missed. I hope the post-vacation letdown/jet lag hasnít clobbered you.

Our insight has kind of stalled, so get to reading!
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on January 25, 2019, 08:46:05 pm
OK so I have just been playing catchup (sorry) work has been a nightmare. I keep reading up and then realizing a ton of stuff happened while I was gone and then reading again... and etc etc. So I am just gonna post major points here and get to deets later. First off:

alright then

I am Queter, a Radch-Aligned Shy Bugged Compulsive Visitor. I have to visit someone every night. If I don't get targeted by anyone and my Visit will be successful, I will become Self-Aligned with powers and win condition yet unknown. Bugged part of my role is that if investigated I will return Human or AI result with 50% probability for each. N1 I targeted Haddock and nothing happened.

LL, can you help me understand this better? You visited Haddock, but your visit was not successful since you did not become Self-aligned? (Is targeted the same as visited?)

Well, I targeted Haddock. I have no idea if I was visiting him in the end (I might've been roleblocked or I might've been visited). Or maybe Haddovck commuted or was rolestopped. I have no idea, but I did not have a choice to change alignment, basically I didn't get any response

- I do not think this comes as skum. It could come off as a Survivor claim, but it could also come off as a SK claim or skum claim. I think on the spot like LL was, they would of taken a different route as skum in regards to the content of their claim.

- Additionally I know what my role is, and there is a specific part of it that by no means "clears" LL here... but also pushes me in the direction of believing them.

What do you make of the whole ďdoesnít work in the rulesĒ thing?

I think either i am wrong and LL made a mistake when fake claiming (unlikely imo)... or the ďself alignedĒ role would have some sort of variable in the untold part that is similar to hyper cubes (i.e. everything goes through and instead of becoming self aligned automatically they are given some form of choice or parameters). Or the third option where i just donít know - it is the only hold up i currently havenon LL- i keep remembering Lost when they were SK and messed up there claim day 2 there so i am fighting with myself currently

I think itís a little too convenient that LaLight forgot to mention the optional part of her conversion until someone pointed it out.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on January 25, 2019, 08:47:43 pm
Oh by the way I keep meaning to say, if I haven't already: there is nothing I did N1 that would have prevented LaLight's claimed thing from happening.

If we want to go down this road (and Iím not certain we do) I should claim a little more.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: DatSwan on January 26, 2019, 12:47:56 am
Ok so we got Ash who is some day Vig of sorts with a hated attribute -2.... they were also lynch proof yesterday and did not know about it. If there is one thing that i absolutely believe about Ash claim it is the bit about ďday one shot effecting something about their future shotsĒ... just cuz it could be true regardless of alignment and it kind of explains why shoot day one... again regardless of alignment.

Then we got Hypercube - not worth too much worry as itís kind of a ďif they wake up tomorrow wtfĒ situation. But that aside i believe them at this point.

Onto E! Which everyone has brought up the potential Ash/E! Thing. What i find funny is that no one re visited this from a different angle after LL claimed. If Iím reading LL right, a cop result is random yeah? 50/50 on town or skum.... so if something like that is in play... it is completely possible that E! Got a false result (if that makes sense).


Also we should remember that MCMC flipped MD - so that opened a lot of doors for skum to feel safe fake claiming information because thatís a big informative role out the window already.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: DatSwan on January 26, 2019, 12:59:14 am
Oh by the way I keep meaning to say, if I haven't already: there is nothing I did N1 that would have prevented LaLight's claimed thing from happening.

If we want to go down this road (and Iím not certain we do) I should claim a little more.

Does ďa little moreĒ mean you have already claimed something i am missing? Or just in general?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Glooble on January 26, 2019, 02:41:19 am
Oh by the way I keep meaning to say, if I haven't already: there is nothing I did N1 that would have prevented LaLight's claimed thing from happening.

If we want to go down this road (and Iím not certain we do) I should claim a little more.

Does ďa little moreĒ mean you have already claimed something i am missing? Or just in general?

She claimed that her role let her name one player and target another and that she named LL but didnít target her.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: faust on January 26, 2019, 02:53:51 am
Vote Count 2.4

jotheonah (1): mail-mi
LaLight (4): Glooble, hypercube, Haddock, jotheonah
2.71828..... (1): LaLight
DatSwan (1): Awaclus

Not Voting (6): SpaceAnemone, DatSwan, WestCoastDidds, Robz888, ashersky, 2.71828.....

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch. Day 2 ends on January 29, 2019, 01:00:00 am.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: DatSwan on January 26, 2019, 03:09:06 am
Oh by the way I keep meaning to say, if I haven't already: there is nothing I did N1 that would have prevented LaLight's claimed thing from happening.

If we want to go down this road (and Iím not certain we do) I should claim a little more.

Does ďa little moreĒ mean you have already claimed something i am missing? Or just in general?

She claimed that her role let her name one player and target another and that she named LL but didnít target her.

oh right the mtg thing - totally forgot about that.

In that case, my vote is yes let's go down the rabbit hole (@joth). If you have the ability to "name/target", then it is probably a component of the game that exists more than once. Learning more about it will probably be beneficial as we have to assume as least someone of a skum/sk/evil/whatever faction knows how it works.

Complete honesty a little bit of it is because I do not understand how it operates (and I have played A LOT of mtg, so I get the general concept)... I just don't get how it works here. So I guess... maybe claim isn't necessary if you think it is best to hold back info.. but an understanding of the what it is that it can do probably would be beneficial. (I say all of that assuming that if you had damning evidence of sorts, you would not be hesitant about sharing it of course)
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: 2.71828..... on January 26, 2019, 03:37:39 am
Sorry, just got a bit busy the last day or so. Really need to reread everything after LaLight's claim, should be able to do that later today.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Awaclus on January 26, 2019, 04:14:54 am
Scum might intentionally bus a partner especially if they think defending them is too dangerous

Might? Scum is definitely going to intentionally bus a partner they know scumslipped.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Glooble on January 26, 2019, 07:33:54 am
Scum might intentionally bus a partner especially if they think defending them is too dangerous

Might? Scum is definitely going to intentionally bus a partner they know scumslipped.

Depends on the severity of the slip. You and I obviously play this game differently as scum. Lalight is still alive and 3 votes from lynching, so clearly her death is preventable. If I were scum who hadnít voted yet right now, I wouldnít be bussing. I would be looking for some convoluted way to keep her alive while also distancing myself from her.

I.e. exactly what youíre doing.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Glooble on January 26, 2019, 07:37:11 am
So if you are scum, then we play the same as scum, but if youíre town then we play very differently as scum. To clarify.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Awaclus on January 26, 2019, 07:47:47 am
Depends on the severity of the slip. You and I obviously play this game differently as scum. Lalight is still alive and 3 votes from lynching, so clearly her death is preventable. If I were scum who hadnít voted yet right now, I wouldnít be bussing. I would be looking for some convoluted way to keep her alive while also distancing myself from her.

I.e. exactly what youíre doing.

What I would do if I was scum was busing as hard as I can. I.e. exactly what you're doing.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Glooble on January 26, 2019, 07:49:56 am
Except I started the wagon. And have been pushing it consistently.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Awaclus on January 26, 2019, 07:53:28 am
Except I started the wagon. And have been pushing it consistently.

It's not like your explanation of what I'm doing was at all more accurate, given that I'm not trying to keep LL alive, I'm talking about him all the time instead of distancing myself from him, and there is nothing convoluted about the simple concept of inflation.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Haddock on January 26, 2019, 08:03:08 am
Oh by the way I keep meaning to say, if I haven't already: there is nothing I did N1 that would have prevented LaLight's claimed thing from happening.

If we want to go down this road (and Iím not certain we do) I should claim a little more.
Entirely your choice.  I didn't intend for there to be lots of claims, I just felt I could reveal that without giving away anything much about my role.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on January 26, 2019, 08:08:40 am
I see what hyper have said. But it still rubs me the wrong way. Third-parties do not work with town. maybe faust overrode this somehow, but then why wouldn't one of those third-party guys told us so? Why wouldn't hyper then convert and claim basically the same thing, but staying alive? if they are not the enemy, that is. hyper would be alive, scum would need to kill one more person. But no, hyper declined and we lose a person, who in any case would help town, being either town or so-called helping third party

Reading back, this response, coming from LL (who prefers to play town, I'm pretty sure), seems actually quite consistent with his faction-change claim, in that it shows some frustration with faction changes. I do wonder whether he has some inkling of how town-aligned he'd end up if he takes the faction change, though.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: ashersky on January 26, 2019, 09:00:52 am
LL retconning an option into his claim is scummy.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on January 26, 2019, 09:20:52 am
I keep forgetting that Hyper is going to die today. If LL is Radch, too, and if there is a NK that is a rather dramatic decrease in our town folk.  :-\

Hey, why didnít anyone die during N1? I was so caught up in the Asher kill and then lynchproof and Joth hated parts that I hadnít processed the lack of a nightkill.

The Glooble/Awaclus discussion makes me feel pretty towny about both of them, although maybe that is the point. Iíve never actually seen Awa engage this much with someone so it seems out of the ordinary for him, but the nature of his engagement is consistent with my (limited) Awa experience.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: ashersky on January 26, 2019, 09:57:49 am
Has anyone pointed out that giving the hated modified out as a night action is definitely a scum-style power?

Did Joth suggest that likelihood. I think he did. Something about helping along the easy mislynch, I think.

Did anyone then mention that a good scum tactic for gaining towncred would be to use said scum power on a member of your own faction?  And doing so early in the game is sensible for safety and maximum benefit?

No, I guess that hadnít been pointed out yet.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on January 26, 2019, 10:02:42 am
I keep forgetting that Hyper is going to die today. If LL is Radch, too, and if there is a NK that is a rather dramatic decrease in our town folk.  :-\

Hey, why didnít anyone die during N1? I was so caught up in the Asher kill and then lynchproof and Joth hated parts that I hadnít processed the lack of a nightkill.

The Glooble/Awaclus discussion makes me feel pretty towny about both of them, although maybe that is the point. Iíve never actually seen Awa engage this much with someone so it seems out of the ordinary for him, but the nature of his engagement is consistent with my (limited) Awa experience.
I keep forgetting that Hyper is going to die today. If LL is Radch, too, and if there is a NK that is a rather dramatic decrease in our town folk.  :-\

Hey, why didnít anyone die during N1? I was so caught up in the Asher kill and then lynchproof and Joth hated parts that I hadnít processed the lack of a nightkill.

The Glooble/Awaclus discussion makes me feel pretty towny about both of them, although maybe that is the point. Iíve never actually seen Awa engage this much with someone so it seems out of the ordinary for him, but the nature of his engagement is consistent with my (limited) Awa experience.

The most likely possibility is we have a doctor and they got lucky/played well. A town doc obviously wouldnít want to claim here (and rightly so).

It could also be a roleblocker, but in that case they maybe should claim since they have a pretty good idea their target is scum. Or it could be a jailkeeper, in which case itís 50/50 if they targeted the victim or the shooter.

But we donít know and probably donít gain much by speculating. If a person thinks they should claim they will.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on January 26, 2019, 10:04:20 am
Has anyone pointed out that giving the hated modified out as a night action is definitely a scum-style power?

Did Joth suggest that likelihood. I think he did. Something about helping along the easy mislynch, I think.

Did anyone then mention that a good scum tactic for gaining towncred would be to use said scum power on a member of your own faction?  And doing so early in the game is sensible for safety and maximum benefit?

No, I guess that hadnít been pointed out yet.

Keeping in mind that Iím town and so I know this isnít true, I can definitely see it. But it might be something some scum, especially new scum, might not think of or might not be gutsy enough to do.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: hypercube on January 26, 2019, 10:48:30 am
I am Queter, a Radch-Aligned Shy Bugged Compulsive Visitor. I have to visit someone every night. If I don't get targeted by anyone and my Visit will be successful, I will become Self-Aligned with powers and win condition yet unknown. Bugged part of my role is that if investigated I will return Human or AI result with 50% probability for each. N1 I targeted Haddock and nothing happened.

Two other points about LL's claim that have me thinking that it could easily be fake:

The "Shy" modifier presumably is related to the alignment-changing part of the claim. However, LL's alignment would change if she's unable to visit or if no-one targets her; that sounds like the opposite of shy to me, so it could be a modification of a real role that LL knows about somehow.

"Bugged" makes sense for a role that would give an AI a chance as identifying as human, but less so for a role that would give a human a chance of identifying as AI. Of course faust could have given the Bugged modifier to various people and just called it the same thing in all cases, but it feels a bit out of place here and could easily be something that scum!LL took from her true role or one of her teammates' roles.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: hypercube on January 26, 2019, 10:50:27 am
Has anyone pointed out that giving the hated modified out as a night action is definitely a scum-style power?

Did Joth suggest that likelihood. I think he did. Something about helping along the easy mislynch, I think.

Did anyone then mention that a good scum tactic for gaining towncred would be to use said scum power on a member of your own faction?  And doing so early in the game is sensible for safety and maximum benefit?

No, I guess that hadnít been pointed out yet.

It's also possible that it's a scum power and they didn't know that it would be announced publicly. Personally I don't think it says anything about joth's alignment one way or the other.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: hypercube on January 26, 2019, 10:56:34 am
If we think LL is the person most likely to be scum, we should lynch her today regardless of how informative the wagon is (and I think at this point it's decently informative). This is an RMM, we don't know what powers scum could have but we probably want to minimize their opportunities to use them.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Awaclus on January 26, 2019, 12:16:29 pm
If we think LL is the person most likely to be scum, we should lynch her today regardless of how informative the wagon is

Well, that's already a lot better than lynching him just because he's low/potentially negative utility even if he's telling the truth.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Haddock on January 26, 2019, 12:24:21 pm
I keep forgetting that Hyper is going to die today. If LL is Radch, too, and if there is a NK that is a rather dramatic decrease in our town folk.  :-\

Hey, why didnít anyone die during N1? I was so caught up in the Asher kill and then lynchproof and Joth hated parts that I hadnít processed the lack of a nightkill.

The Glooble/Awaclus discussion makes me feel pretty towny about both of them, although maybe that is the point. Iíve never actually seen Awa engage this much with someone so it seems out of the ordinary for him, but the nature of his engagement is consistent with my (limited) Awa experience.
I keep forgetting that Hyper is going to die today. If LL is Radch, too, and if there is a NK that is a rather dramatic decrease in our town folk.  :-\

Hey, why didnít anyone die during N1? I was so caught up in the Asher kill and then lynchproof and Joth hated parts that I hadnít processed the lack of a nightkill.

The Glooble/Awaclus discussion makes me feel pretty towny about both of them, although maybe that is the point. Iíve never actually seen Awa engage this much with someone so it seems out of the ordinary for him, but the nature of his engagement is consistent with my (limited) Awa experience.

The most likely possibility is we have a doctor and they got lucky/played well. A town doc obviously wouldnít want to claim here (and rightly so).

It could also be a roleblocker, but in that case they maybe should claim since they have a pretty good idea their target is scum. Or it could be a jailkeeper, in which case itís 50/50 if they targeted the victim or the shooter.

But we donít know and probably donít gain much by speculating. If a person thinks they should claim they will.

I had a thought that maybe the lack of kill is because this weird hypercube recruitment thing is like a kill-substitute?
After all it results always in the loss of a town player...

I am Queter, a Radch-Aligned Shy Bugged Compulsive Visitor. I have to visit someone every night. If I don't get targeted by anyone and my Visit will be successful, I will become Self-Aligned with powers and win condition yet unknown. Bugged part of my role is that if investigated I will return Human or AI result with 50% probability for each. N1 I targeted Haddock and nothing happened.

Two other points about LL's claim that have me thinking that it could easily be fake:

The "Shy" modifier presumably is related to the alignment-changing part of the claim. However, LL's alignment would change if she's unable to visit or if no-one targets her; that sounds like the opposite of shy to me, so it could be a modification of a real role that LL knows about somehow.

"Bugged" makes sense for a role that would give an AI a chance as identifying as human, but less so for a role that would give a human a chance of identifying as AI. Of course faust could have given the Bugged modifier to various people and just called it the same thing in all cases, but it feels a bit out of place here and could easily be something that scum!LL took from her true role or one of her teammates' roles.
I think once again you're reading wrong?
I understood that LLs alignment changes unless she was blocked.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: hypercube on January 26, 2019, 01:06:18 pm
If we think LL is the person most likely to be scum, we should lynch her today regardless of how informative the wagon is

Well, that's already a lot better than lynching him just because he's low/potentially negative utility even if he's telling the truth.

As you said, it's important to consider both of the possible scenarios.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: hypercube on January 26, 2019, 01:09:04 pm
I had a thought that maybe the lack of kill is because this weird hypercube recruitment thing is like a kill-substitute?
After all it results always in the loss of a town player...

Doesn't make sense, since the cult also needs to exterminate scum to win. If anything is a kill substitute it's ash's dayvig.

I think once again you're reading wrong?
I understood that LLs alignment changes unless she was blocked.

Yes, I got that backwards again.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Awaclus on January 26, 2019, 01:51:30 pm
As you said, it's important to consider both of the possible scenarios.

I don't think I said and I'm not even sure if I agree with the statement. I feel like I should, but the problem is when people like Haddock (and me) conclude that lynching town!LL is still pretty decent for town, which it kind of is in a vacuum but that fact makes it completely useless for me and Haddock to be on that wagon.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: mail-mi on January 26, 2019, 02:50:27 pm
My question is just, what motivation does scum!LL have to claim that? Yes, there is wifom, but saying "I may eventually betray town so go ahead and lynch me" just does NOT sound like a good scum tactic.

Ash (I think it was ash?) pointing out how adding the "Oh yeah I get to choose if I switch alignments" after the initial claim is a good point. However, I still don't see the benefit (as scum) to making a claim like that.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Glooble on January 26, 2019, 03:07:49 pm
My question is just, what motivation does scum!LL have to claim that? Yes, there is wifom, but saying "I may eventually betray town so go ahead and lynch me" just does NOT sound like a good scum tactic.

Ash (I think it was ash?) pointing out how adding the "Oh yeah I get to choose if I switch alignments" after the initial claim is a good point. However, I still don't see the benefit (as scum) to making a claim like that.

Except it worked. It stalled the wagon. Precisely because it doesn't make sense.

I leave it to people who know LaLight better than I do- is this the kind of moved she would pull? Claim something that seems like it would make the town more likely to lynch her than act all contrite?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on January 26, 2019, 03:19:23 pm
My question is just, what motivation does scum!LL have to claim that? Yes, there is wifom, but saying "I may eventually betray town so go ahead and lynch me" just does NOT sound like a good scum tactic.

Ash (I think it was ash?) pointing out how adding the "Oh yeah I get to choose if I switch alignments" after the initial claim is a good point. However, I still don't see the benefit (as scum) to making a claim like that.

We don't know how extensive the fakeclaims provided by faust were.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: hypercube on January 26, 2019, 03:54:26 pm
As you said, it's important to consider both of the possible scenarios.

I don't think I said and I'm not even sure if I agree with the statement. I feel like I should, but the problem is when people like Haddock (and me) conclude that lynching town!LL is still pretty decent for town, which it kind of is in a vacuum but that fact makes it completely useless for me and Haddock to be on that wagon.

So you're saying you do think she's scum... but you don't want to lynch her?

No, I don't know if he's scum or not, that's why I'm considering both of the possible scenarios. In both of the possible scenarios, both town and scum want to be on the wagon so it doesn't tell us anything about anyone's alignment, which is why we should have a more informative lynch today and focus on this later, preferably when we also have more info.

This is why I don't like your arguments, you've gone back and forth between the argument that LL is scum and the people on the wagon are bussing and the argument that LL is town and people are only on the wagon because her claimed role is anti-town.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Awaclus on January 26, 2019, 04:01:10 pm
This is why I don't like your arguments, you've gone back and forth between the argument that LL is scum and the people on the wagon are bussing and the argument that LL is town and people are only on the wagon because her claimed role is anti-town.

Both of those have been a part of my argument all the time, I have just focused on whichever aspect someone else has been commenting on. Regardless of LL's alignment, we don't learn anything, that's the point.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: hypercube on January 26, 2019, 04:08:59 pm
As you said, it's important to consider both of the possible scenarios.

I don't think I said and I'm not even sure if I agree with the statement. I feel like I should, but the problem is when people like Haddock (and me) conclude that lynching town!LL is still pretty decent for town, which it kind of is in a vacuum but that fact makes it completely useless for me and Haddock to be on that wagon.

This is why I don't like your arguments, you've gone back and forth between the argument that LL is scum and the people on the wagon are bussing and the argument that LL is town and people are only on the wagon because her claimed role is anti-town.

Both of those have been a part of my argument all the time, I have just focused on whichever aspect someone else has been commenting on. Regardless of LL's alignment, we don't learn anything, that's the point.

You're just contradicting yourself now.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on January 26, 2019, 04:16:08 pm
This is why I don't like your arguments, you've gone back and forth between the argument that LL is scum and the people on the wagon are bussing and the argument that LL is town and people are only on the wagon because her claimed role is anti-town.

Both of those have been a part of my argument all the time, I have just focused on whichever aspect someone else has been commenting on. Regardless of LL's alignment, we don't learn anything, that's the point.

I still don't understand what you mean by this. We learn exactly as much as we do from any other non-policy lynch.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on January 26, 2019, 04:16:51 pm
For instance, I'll learn that if LaLight flips scum, we should probably lynch Awaclus tomorrow.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: hypercube on January 26, 2019, 04:18:51 pm
For instance, I'll learn that if LaLight flips scum, we should probably lynch Awaclus tomorrow.

We could also do it the other way around!

vote: Awaclus
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Awaclus on January 26, 2019, 04:39:15 pm
As you said, it's important to consider both of the possible scenarios.

I don't think I said and I'm not even sure if I agree with the statement. I feel like I should, but the problem is when people like Haddock (and me) conclude that lynching town!LL is still pretty decent for town, which it kind of is in a vacuum but that fact makes it completely useless for me and Haddock to be on that wagon.

This is why I don't like your arguments, you've gone back and forth between the argument that LL is scum and the people on the wagon are bussing and the argument that LL is town and people are only on the wagon because her claimed role is anti-town.

Both of those have been a part of my argument all the time, I have just focused on whichever aspect someone else has been commenting on. Regardless of LL's alignment, we don't learn anything, that's the point.

You're just contradicting yourself now.

I'm not. I am considering both of the possible scenarios, but the fact that I am makes it useless for me to vote for LL, which is why I'm not sure it's good for me or anyone else to do so.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Awaclus on January 26, 2019, 04:41:41 pm
For instance, I'll learn that if LaLight flips scum, we should probably lynch Awaclus tomorrow.

The principle of inflation exists regardless of LaLight's alignment and regardless of my alignment. The fact that I'm bringing it up is pro-town.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Awaclus on January 26, 2019, 04:46:02 pm
I still don't understand what you mean by this. We learn exactly as much as we do from any other non-policy lynch.

If LaLight is scum:
 - If I am scum: I have an incentive to vote for LaLight
 - If I am town: I have an incentive to vote for LaLight

If LaLight is town:
 - If I am scum: I have an incentive to vote for LaLight
 - If I am town: I have an incentive to vote for LaLight

Everything that you'll learn from LaLight's flip, regardless of what it is, is that I had an incentive to vote for him. Which you already know. So you don't really learn anything, which is why there is no point for me to vote for him.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Glooble on January 26, 2019, 06:25:18 pm
I still don't understand what you mean by this. We learn exactly as much as we do from any other non-policy lynch.

If LaLight is scum:
 - If I am scum: I have an incentive to vote for LaLight
 - If I am town: I have an incentive to vote for LaLight

If LaLight is town:
 - If I am scum: I have an incentive to vote for LaLight
 - If I am town: I have an incentive to vote for LaLight

Everything that you'll learn from LaLight's flip, regardless of what it is, is that I had an incentive to vote for him. Which you already know. So you don't really learn anything, which is why there is no point for me to vote for him.

That only applies to people who vote after the claim. Which is two people! Even if we accept your logic weíre getting two people less information. In exchange for a lynch that helps town in nearly every scenario.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on January 26, 2019, 06:34:48 pm
there is no point for me to vote for him.

except, you know, our wincon
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on January 26, 2019, 06:35:42 pm
For instance, I'll learn that if LaLight flips scum, we should probably lynch Awaclus tomorrow.

We could also do it the other way around!

vote: Awaclus

I'm down.

vote: Awaclus
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: hypercube on January 26, 2019, 06:42:08 pm
I still don't understand what you mean by this. We learn exactly as much as we do from any other non-policy lynch.

If LaLight is scum:
 - If I am scum: I have an incentive to vote for LaLight
 - If I am town: I have an incentive to vote for LaLight

If LaLight is town:
 - If I am scum: I have an incentive to vote for LaLight
 - If I am town: I have an incentive to vote for LaLight

Everything that you'll learn from LaLight's flip, regardless of what it is, is that I had an incentive to vote for him. Which you already know. So you don't really learn anything, which is why there is no point for me to vote for him.

That only applies to people who vote after the claim. Which is two people! Even if we accept your logic weíre getting two people less information. In exchange for a lynch that helps town in nearly every scenario.

Agreed, I actually don't see any reason why scum would have an incentive to vote for scum!LL after the claim. It would be a kind of obviously bussy vote. Instead scum might, I don't know, engage in an extended campaign to try to get people to vote for someone else while denying that they're defending LL.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Robz888 on January 26, 2019, 06:59:03 pm
I am starting to read day 2 now, is there anything I need to know more urgently then that?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Haddock on January 26, 2019, 07:00:39 pm
I am always down for an Awaclus lynch.

however.  Can we just have some constructive conversation about like, anything else first.  It's clear Awa and me/others won't agree, so rather than continue this (it's just one vote after all), we could talk about other stuff.

Like whether we think Swan is scummy.  I think a bit, but Swan is a tricky one for me to read.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Glooble on January 26, 2019, 07:01:37 pm
I am starting to read day 2 now, is there anything I need to know more urgently then that?

The only real wagon is collapsing now so I think itís unlikely we lynch anyone before you catch up.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: hypercube on January 26, 2019, 07:34:57 pm
I am always down for an Awaclus lynch.

however.  Can we just have some constructive conversation about like, anything else first.  It's clear Awa and me/others won't agree, so rather than continue this (it's just one vote after all), we could talk about other stuff.

Like whether we think Swan is scummy.  I think a bit, but Swan is a tricky one for me to read.

I keep going back and forth between "Swan is a bit scummy" and "Swan is a bit towny." So pretty null overall for me.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: ashersky on January 26, 2019, 07:41:01 pm
I had a thought that maybe the lack of kill is because this weird hypercube recruitment thing is like a kill-substitute?
After all it results always in the loss of a town player...

Doesn't make sense, since the cult also needs to exterminate scum to win. If anything is a kill substitute it's ash's dayvig.

Or there is no cult and the scum kill is ďjoin or die.Ē
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Robz888 on January 26, 2019, 07:41:12 pm
Lol I am just now realizing mcmc is dead.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: hypercube on January 26, 2019, 07:42:05 pm
I had a thought that maybe the lack of kill is because this weird hypercube recruitment thing is like a kill-substitute?
After all it results always in the loss of a town player...

Doesn't make sense, since the cult also needs to exterminate scum to win. If anything is a kill substitute it's ash's dayvig.

Or there is no cult and the scum kill is ďjoin or die.Ē

Are you suggesting that faust was lying or that I'm lying?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Haddock on January 26, 2019, 07:50:22 pm
I had a thought that maybe the lack of kill is because this weird hypercube recruitment thing is like a kill-substitute?
After all it results always in the loss of a town player...

Doesn't make sense, since the cult also needs to exterminate scum to win. If anything is a kill substitute it's ash's dayvig.

Or there is no cult and the scum kill is ďjoin or die.Ē

Are you suggesting that faust was lying or that I'm lying?
I'm not really suggesting either, just speculating: you never did confirm that the info you had was mod confirmed; as I asked before  is it possible you have been deceived? That is, did this information about this cultish third party come from faust or via some kind of message?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: hypercube on January 26, 2019, 07:51:42 pm

Again, this is all based on information I received directly from faust, so I don't think it's possible that I've been misled.

Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on January 26, 2019, 08:25:43 pm
LL retconning an option into his claim is scummy.

Yes, I agree with this. I'll vote there to get a lynch through, but I'm not also trying to work out whether LL's claim still has more to tell us about the game setup.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Awaclus on January 26, 2019, 08:30:16 pm
except, you know, our wincon

It is irrelevant to our wincon whether we lynch LL now or later. And therefore we should be getting a more informative lynch now because it is relevant to get that sooner rather than later.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on January 26, 2019, 08:43:50 pm
I am always down for an Awaclus lynch.

however.  Can we just have some constructive conversation about like, anything else first.  It's clear Awa and me/others won't agree, so rather than continue this (it's just one vote after all), we could talk about other stuff.

Like whether we think Swan is scummy.  I think a bit, but Swan is a tricky one for me to read.

This post seems townish from you, even though advocating a blanket Awa lynch isn't the most pro-town of things.

I re-read Swan, and can see whether you're coming from. The thing that struck me most was that he was quite concerned about Ash's dayvig shot, so if Swan is scum then I think that was something they weren't expecting.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on January 26, 2019, 09:18:17 pm
Lol I am just now realizing mcmc is dead.

Pour one out for Mcmc. Damn shame.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: mail-mi on January 26, 2019, 10:46:55 pm
My question is just, what motivation does scum!LL have to claim that? Yes, there is wifom, but saying "I may eventually betray town so go ahead and lynch me" just does NOT sound like a good scum tactic.

Ash (I think it was ash?) pointing out how adding the "Oh yeah I get to choose if I switch alignments" after the initial claim is a good point. However, I still don't see the benefit (as scum) to making a claim like that.

Except it worked. It stalled the wagon. Precisely because it doesn't make sense.

I leave it to people who know LaLight better than I do- is this the kind of moved she would pull? Claim something that seems like it would make the town more likely to lynch her than act all contrite?

Again, like I said, wifom. I think LL is town and we should look elsewhere for scum
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: DatSwan on January 26, 2019, 10:49:51 pm
I am always down for an Awaclus lynch.

however.  Can we just have some constructive conversation about like, anything else first.  It's clear Awa and me/others won't agree, so rather than continue this (it's just one vote after all), we could talk about other stuff.

Like whether we think Swan is scummy.  I think a bit, but Swan is a tricky one for me to read.

I keep going back and forth between "Swan is a bit scummy" and "Swan is a bit towny." So pretty null overall for me.


Well I know some of your opinion of me possibly being skummy is that the conversation awaclus and i had on day 1 was skummy... so idk if it changes your all around read but i am absolutely in for a
Vote: Awaclus
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: DatSwan on January 26, 2019, 10:51:36 pm
I had a thought that maybe the lack of kill is because this weird hypercube recruitment thing is like a kill-substitute?
After all it results always in the loss of a town player...

Doesn't make sense, since the cult also needs to exterminate scum to win. If anything is a kill substitute it's ash's dayvig.

Or there is no cult and the scum kill is ďjoin or die.Ē

I also considered this when i was trying to figure out the balance of the claims - could make sense.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: faust on January 27, 2019, 03:09:01 am
Vote Count 2.5

jotheonah (1): mail-mi
LaLight (2): Glooble, Haddock
2.71828..... (1): LaLight
DatSwan (1): Awaclus
Awaclus (3): hypercube, jotheonah, DatSwan

Not Voting (5): SpaceAnemone, WestCoastDidds, Robz888, ashersky, 2.71828.....

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch. Day 2 ends on January 29, 2019, 01:00:00 am. That is in 46 hours.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Glooble on January 27, 2019, 07:54:05 am
My whole case on Awaclus being scum is predicated on LaLight being scum so Iíd much rather lynch LaLight today.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: 2.71828..... on January 27, 2019, 08:04:18 am
I want to lynch either LaLight or DatSwan today.

vote: DatSwan
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: 2.71828..... on January 27, 2019, 08:05:18 am
DatSwan has been very scummy to me after LaLight's claim.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Glooble on January 27, 2019, 08:08:07 am
Iíll reread DatSwan today and decide if thatís acceptable to me.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: 2.71828..... on January 27, 2019, 08:18:46 am
I think Awaclus has been very townie in his D2 exchanges, not sure why he is getting all the votes.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: 2.71828..... on January 27, 2019, 08:48:22 am
Thoughts on DatSwan:

PPE a ton of catch up since LL claim. But for now i am essentially edged on believing all claims to at least an extent. Reasons to follow.

So, here we have DatSwan stating the "believe all claims" at least to an extent.  Scum knows more than town, generally knows when town is telling the truth.  Sometimes they ignore the truths town states, but at other times they accept and "believe all claims" because they know town is telling the truth, and then after flips, etc., they will be proven "correct" and therefore townie.

Datswan doubles down on this later:

OK so I have just been playing catchup (sorry) work has been a nightmare. I keep reading up and then realizing a ton of stuff happened while I was gone and then reading again... and etc etc. So I am just gonna post major points here and get to deets later. First off:

alright then

I am Queter, a Radch-Aligned Shy Bugged Compulsive Visitor. I have to visit someone every night. If I don't get targeted by anyone and my Visit will be successful, I will become Self-Aligned with powers and win condition yet unknown. Bugged part of my role is that if investigated I will return Human or AI result with 50% probability for each. N1 I targeted Haddock and nothing happened.

LL, can you help me understand this better? You visited Haddock, but your visit was not successful since you did not become Self-aligned? (Is targeted the same as visited?)

Well, I targeted Haddock. I have no idea if I was visiting him in the end (I might've been roleblocked or I might've been visited). Or maybe Haddovck commuted or was rolestopped. I have no idea, but I did not have a choice to change alignment, basically I didn't get any response

- I do not think this comes as skum. It could come off as a Survivor claim, but it could also come off as a SK claim or skum claim. I think on the spot like LL was, they would of taken a different route as skum in regards to the content of their claim.

- Additionally I know what my role is, and there is a specific part of it that by no means "clears" LL here... but also pushes me in the direction of believing them.

Those two points can basically read: I am scum, I know LaLight isn't, possible SK, possible survivor, but not scum.

Then DatSwan changes the topic of conversation in this post (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=19374.msg784461#msg784461) to Ash, hypercube, myself, and mcmc.  And then jumps on a very opportunistic Awaclus wagon.

All the scum feels, none of the townie feels.

The redirection made me think that DatSwan and LaLight could potentially be partners, and I was tempted to switch back to LaLight and lynch them first, if they flip scum move on to DatSwan.  But I think I like my theories about scum!Swan knowing information and white knighting LaLight makes more sense.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on January 27, 2019, 09:55:52 am
I am not feeling the Awaclus votes. He seems more town than not.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Glooble on January 27, 2019, 09:57:33 am
I'd rather lynch DatSwan today than Awaclus, so if we get close to the deadline and the Awaclus wagon is in the lead I'll probably switch my vote.

That being said I'd rather lynch LL than either of them, both because I think her alignment will actually tell us a lot and because I'm nearly certain she's scum.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Glooble on January 27, 2019, 10:12:03 am
So in the process of trying to write this post I think I've convinced myself that Awaclus is probably scum. I know this contradicts what I just stated, but I've had a bit of a breakthrough.

Scenario 1: LL is scum. Awaclus is also scum and is trying to forestall LLs lynch one night. Maybe to give LL a chance to use a 1-shot power? Maybe in the hopes that night 2 will give info that will allow her to push an alternate lynch. This is the scenario I've been leaning towards.

Scenario 2:  Awaclus is town, does not know LL's alignment, and honestly believes the fuzzy logic she's been expounding about LL's lynch not being informative.

Scenario 3: LL is town. Awaclus is scum, and knows LL is town, and wants to get town points for looking like she's trying to stop a town lynch.

Having laid this out, scenario two feels like far and away the least likely to me. Awaclus's behavior looks scummy to me regardless of LL's alignment.

I still really want to lynch LL.

But.

This is good too.

vote: Awaclus
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: hypercube on January 27, 2019, 10:21:59 am
Yeah, after sleeping on it I think LL is a better lynch today than Awa. All of LL's reactions say "caught scum" to me, I would really hope that if LL was town he would try to act towards his wincon even after he was forced to claim; while Awaclus hasn't done anything on quite that level of scumminess.

If LL flips scum, certainly Awaclus is the next person I'd voting for. E's Swan case is pretty decent, so maybe Swan is a good person to look at tomorrow if LL flips town. I would be interested in hearing Swan explain what he was getting at with his "believe all claims" comment.

vote: LL

PPE I see that Glooble has come to the opposite conclusion as me
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Glooble on January 27, 2019, 10:43:52 am
PPE I see that Glooble has come to the opposite conclusion as me

Happy with either really.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Haddock on January 27, 2019, 10:45:38 am
I am always down for an Awaclus lynch.

however.  Can we just have some constructive conversation about like, anything else first.  It's clear Awa and me/others won't agree, so rather than continue this (it's just one vote after all), we could talk about other stuff.

Like whether we think Swan is scummy.  I think a bit, but Swan is a tricky one for me to read.

This post seems townish from you, even though advocating a blanket Awa lynch isn't the most pro-town of things.

I re-read Swan, and can see whether you're coming from. The thing that struck me most was that he was quite concerned about Ash's dayvig shot, so if Swan is scum then I think that was something they weren't expecting.
Why are you so keen to simultaneously throw shade at me and also hedge on me?  I don't like it.

I'm so obviously not advocating an Awa lynch in the above, I think it's clear that I'm making a meta comment; namely that I find Awaclus completely unreadable because he's always exactly the same amount of annoying.

Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Haddock on January 27, 2019, 10:46:07 am
Thoughts on DatSwan:

PPE a ton of catch up since LL claim. But for now i am essentially edged on believing all claims to at least an extent. Reasons to follow.

So, here we have DatSwan stating the "believe all claims" at least to an extent.  Scum knows more than town, generally knows when town is telling the truth.  Sometimes they ignore the truths town states, but at other times they accept and "believe all claims" because they know town is telling the truth, and then after flips, etc., they will be proven "correct" and therefore townie.

Datswan doubles down on this later:

OK so I have just been playing catchup (sorry) work has been a nightmare. I keep reading up and then realizing a ton of stuff happened while I was gone and then reading again... and etc etc. So I am just gonna post major points here and get to deets later. First off:

alright then

I am Queter, a Radch-Aligned Shy Bugged Compulsive Visitor. I have to visit someone every night. If I don't get targeted by anyone and my Visit will be successful, I will become Self-Aligned with powers and win condition yet unknown. Bugged part of my role is that if investigated I will return Human or AI result with 50% probability for each. N1 I targeted Haddock and nothing happened.

LL, can you help me understand this better? You visited Haddock, but your visit was not successful since you did not become Self-aligned? (Is targeted the same as visited?)

Well, I targeted Haddock. I have no idea if I was visiting him in the end (I might've been roleblocked or I might've been visited). Or maybe Haddovck commuted or was rolestopped. I have no idea, but I did not have a choice to change alignment, basically I didn't get any response

- I do not think this comes as skum. It could come off as a Survivor claim, but it could also come off as a SK claim or skum claim. I think on the spot like LL was, they would of taken a different route as skum in regards to the content of their claim.

- Additionally I know what my role is, and there is a specific part of it that by no means "clears" LL here... but also pushes me in the direction of believing them.

Those two points can basically read: I am scum, I know LaLight isn't, possible SK, possible survivor, but not scum.

Then DatSwan changes the topic of conversation in this post (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=19374.msg784461#msg784461) to Ash, hypercube, myself, and mcmc.  And then jumps on a very opportunistic Awaclus wagon.

All the scum feels, none of the townie feels.

The redirection made me think that DatSwan and LaLight could potentially be partners, and I was tempted to switch back to LaLight and lynch them first, if they flip scum move on to DatSwan.  But I think I like my theories about scum!Swan knowing information and white knighting LaLight makes more sense.
It is very difficult to argue with this case.  I think I would struggle to vote outside of LL and Swan at this point.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Haddock on January 27, 2019, 10:48:41 am
So in the process of trying to write this post I think I've convinced myself that Awaclus is probably scum. I know this contradicts what I just stated, but I've had a bit of a breakthrough.

Scenario 1: LL is scum. Awaclus is also scum and is trying to forestall LLs lynch one night. Maybe to give LL a chance to use a 1-shot power? Maybe in the hopes that night 2 will give info that will allow her to push an alternate lynch. This is the scenario I've been leaning towards.

Scenario 2:  Awaclus is town, does not know LL's alignment, and honestly believes the fuzzy logic she's been expounding about LL's lynch not being informative.

Scenario 3: LL is town. Awaclus is scum, and knows LL is town, and wants to get town points for looking like she's trying to stop a town lynch.

Having laid this out, scenario two feels like far and away the least likely to me. Awaclus's behavior looks scummy to me regardless of LL's alignment.

I still really want to lynch LL.

But.

This is good too.

vote: Awaclus
I don't know your history with f.ds mafia, Glooble.  Get the impression you've played a bunch before I turned up? 
In any case, I'm not  sure how much you've played with Awaclus before. 

But I would say 2 actually isn't that unlikely.  Awaclus is a good logician, but he often comes from a totally different direction to things than most people, arguing from his own unique premises.  Even and/or especially when he's town.  So what looks like fuzzy logic is often sound logic, just derived from different postulates.  And presented abrasively.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Awaclus on January 27, 2019, 11:04:35 am
Scenario 1: LL is scum. Awaclus is also scum and is trying to forestall LLs lynch one night. Maybe to give LL a chance to use a 1-shot power? Maybe in the hopes that night 2 will give info that will allow her to push an alternate lynch. This is the scenario I've been leaning towards.

And out myself as scum?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on January 27, 2019, 11:21:24 am
Scenario 1: LL is scum. Awaclus is also scum and is trying to forestall LLs lynch one night. Maybe to give LL a chance to use a 1-shot power? Maybe in the hopes that night 2 will give info that will allow her to push an alternate lynch. This is the scenario I've been leaning towards.

And out myself as scum?

You obviously werenít trying to. But sometimes things donít work out.

I agree that LaLightís response to her wagon has been terrible. I still have a preference for vote: LaLight and Iím happy to keep sleeping hyper, who is quasi-IC.

OMG I just had a breakthrough. LaLight is the Survivor/recruiter that tried to recruit hyper. Awaclus is some kind of bodyguard/starting recruit who has to keep LaLight alive to win. Thatís why Awaclus is defending LL way more than a normal scum partner would. She has no other option!

If Iím right though, should we lynch elsewhere? Try to hit real scum?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on January 27, 2019, 11:46:04 am
Oh, that is a really interesting idea, Joth. And maybe explains some of the dynamics at play.

Yes, letís try to find actual scum.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on January 27, 2019, 11:48:29 am
I have some to read now, so Iíll get caught up.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: hypercube on January 27, 2019, 11:48:45 am
If Iím right though, should we lynch elsewhere? Try to hit real scum?

If you're right then they should have claimed that a while ago. I guess I would at least reconsider if they both claimed that now. But I really don't think you're right.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on January 27, 2019, 11:51:23 am
If Iím right though, should we lynch elsewhere? Try to hit real scum?

If you're right then they should have claimed that a while ago. I guess I would at least reconsider if they both claimed that now. But I really don't think you're right.

If thereís a night faction that needs them to die, theyíre toast if they claim.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: hypercube on January 27, 2019, 11:55:41 am
If Iím right though, should we lynch elsewhere? Try to hit real scum?

If you're right then they should have claimed that a while ago. I guess I would at least reconsider if they both claimed that now. But I really don't think you're right.

If thereís a night faction that needs them to die, theyíre toast if they claim.

No NK last night points to town having some sort of protective role. Town is probably inclined to help them to prevent a double-NK or worse, since we know what their wincon is.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: hypercube on January 27, 2019, 11:59:18 am
I'm not really willing to entertain this idea further without a claim other than to say that if they're both cult-aligned they need to start scumhunting like yesterday.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Glooble on January 27, 2019, 11:59:52 am
request vote count

If joth's theory is true, the best plan is to lynch DatSwan.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: faust on January 27, 2019, 12:02:56 pm
Vote Count 2.6

jotheonah (1): mail-mi
LaLight (3): Haddock, hypercube, jotheonah
2.71828..... (1): LaLight
DatSwan (2): Awaclus, 2.71828.....
Awaclus (2): DatSwan, Glooble

Not Voting (4): SpaceAnemone, WestCoastDidds, Robz888, ashersky

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch. Day 2 ends on January 29, 2019, 01:00:00 am. That is in 37 hours.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: 2.71828..... on January 27, 2019, 12:03:31 pm
I think joth's theory is townie (as in, jotheonah is townie), but I don't think that he is correct
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on January 27, 2019, 12:25:16 pm
A reminder: the default deadline lynch is based on ďfewest votes required to lynchĒ, which means Iím currently tied with LaLight and would likely die if the day ended now.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Glooble on January 27, 2019, 12:28:57 pm
A reminder: the default deadline lynch is based on ďfewest votes required to lynchĒ, which means Iím currently tied with LaLight and would likely die if the day ended now.

Ok, good point.

vote: LaLight
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Glooble on January 27, 2019, 12:43:05 pm
Wait are you double hated? Thereís only one vote on you.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on January 27, 2019, 12:45:14 pm
Oh wait youíre right. I guess I mixed up ashís hated with mine. Phew.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Glooble on January 27, 2019, 12:51:41 pm
Well, honestly my two strongest townreads are skeptical about the Awaclus lynch, which seems like reason enough for me to switch back to LaLight. For now.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on January 27, 2019, 01:04:58 pm
So in the process of trying to write this post I think I've convinced myself that Awaclus is probably scum. I know this contradicts what I just stated, but I've had a bit of a breakthrough.

Scenario 1: LL is scum. Awaclus is also scum and is trying to forestall LLs lynch one night. Maybe to give LL a chance to use a 1-shot power? Maybe in the hopes that night 2 will give info that will allow her to push an alternate lynch. This is the scenario I've been leaning towards.

Scenario 2:  Awaclus is town, does not know LL's alignment, and honestly believes the fuzzy logic she's been expounding about LL's lynch not being informative.

Scenario 3: LL is town. Awaclus is scum, and knows LL is town, and wants to get town points for looking like she's trying to stop a town lynch.

Having laid this out, scenario two feels like far and away the least likely to me. Awaclus's behavior looks scummy to me regardless of LL's alignment.

I still really want to lynch LL.

But.

This is good too.

vote: Awaclus

This seems like a really bad piece of logical deduction, for the following reasons:

1) You're forgetting that by far the most likely state of affairs (unless this setup is seriously twisted) is that any two people are [i[both[/i] town.
2) Awaclus also has a longish history of being quite contrarian and dogged in his application of his preferred behaviours, so even before considering the priors, I'd say that Awaclus believed the logic.
3) Your presentation of the breakdown, deliberately or otherwise, appeared to present three options and then disregard one. The most natural way to break down all the combinations of scum-or-town that a pair of players can have is into four sections.. and even then you're hampered by the fact that they're not all equally likely. I don't know how much of a logic person you are, but that looks like either sloppy work, or a deliberate twisting of facts.

Urgh.. PPE lots because I was away from the computer for a while.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Glooble on January 27, 2019, 01:12:40 pm
So in the process of trying to write this post I think I've convinced myself that Awaclus is probably scum. I know this contradicts what I just stated, but I've had a bit of a breakthrough.

Scenario 1: LL is scum. Awaclus is also scum and is trying to forestall LLs lynch one night. Maybe to give LL a chance to use a 1-shot power? Maybe in the hopes that night 2 will give info that will allow her to push an alternate lynch. This is the scenario I've been leaning towards.

Scenario 2:  Awaclus is town, does not know LL's alignment, and honestly believes the fuzzy logic she's been expounding about LL's lynch not being informative.

Scenario 3: LL is town. Awaclus is scum, and knows LL is town, and wants to get town points for looking like she's trying to stop a town lynch.

Having laid this out, scenario two feels like far and away the least likely to me. Awaclus's behavior looks scummy to me regardless of LL's alignment.

I still really want to lynch LL.

But.

This is good too.

vote: Awaclus

This seems like a really bad piece of logical deduction, for the following reasons:

1) You're forgetting that by far the most likely state of affairs (unless this setup is seriously twisted) is that any two people are [i[both[/i] town.
2) Awaclus also has a longish history of being quite contrarian and dogged in his application of his preferred behaviours, so even before considering the priors, I'd say that Awaclus believed the logic.
3) Your presentation of the breakdown, deliberately or otherwise, appeared to present three options and then disregard one. The most natural way to break down all the combinations of scum-or-town that a pair of players can have is into four sections.. and even then you're hampered by the fact that they're not all equally likely. I don't know how much of a logic person you are, but that looks like either sloppy work, or a deliberate twisting of facts.

Urgh.. PPE lots because I was away from the computer for a while.

If Awaclus is town, He doesnít know LLís alignment. So if all Iím analyzing is Awaclusís behavior , ďAwaclus is town and LL is scumĒ and ďAwaclus is town and LL is townĒ are functionally identically. So why not lump them together?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Haddock on January 27, 2019, 01:14:18 pm
Sorry space, but not sure I agree with you there.

Typically it would be natural to break into 4 but this situation is far from typical in that LL is really quite lynchable even if she is town.

Hence it makes sense to present both of the two town!awaclus scenarios together in one block.

Even more so when you consider that awaclus being town would mean awaclus doesn't know LL's alignment and therefore analysing awaclus's behaviour is much more difficult.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Haddock on January 27, 2019, 01:14:51 pm
PPE wow Glooble samebrain.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on January 27, 2019, 01:17:51 pm
LaLight is the Survivor/recruiter that tried to recruit hyper. Awaclus is some kind of bodyguard/starting recruit who has to keep LaLight alive to win. Thatís why Awaclus is defending LL way more than a normal scum partner would. She has no other option!

How does this work? Is there only one third-faction Anaander group, or more than one? If there's more than one, do they all start with two players, and/or are they all allowed to convert multiple people per day? If not, then Awa being on LL's team, with LL as the leader, makes little sense, because when would Awa have been converted? And why would LL have chosen Awa, who multiple people have said they find quite abrasive and aren't generally sorry to lynch? If there's only one third-faction Anaander group, is the main scum group also Anaander? If so, how are you sure that you can distinguish between LL being part of the third-faction and the regular-mafia versions?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on January 27, 2019, 01:22:14 pm
If Awaclus is town, He doesnít know LLís alignment. So if all Iím analyzing is Awaclusís behavior , ďAwaclus is town and LL is scumĒ and ďAwaclus is town and LL is townĒ are functionally identically. So why not lump them together?

Because Awaclus being town, in normal mafia at least, is way more likely than Awaclus being scum. Let's say people have a 1/4 chance of being scum, and a 3/4 chance of being town. Then your "Scenario 1" has a prior weight of 1/16, your "Scenario 3" has a weight of 3/16, and the little scenario in the middle, which you casually discard, is where 3/4 of the prior probability sits. At least if you break it down into scenarios 2a and 2b, with 3/16 and 9/16 respectively, other people who have a similar cognitive bias get to see that actually there are more options that each deserve individual consideration.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on January 27, 2019, 01:27:55 pm
Sorry space, but not sure I agree with you there.

Typically it would be natural to break into 4 but this situation is far from typical in that LL is really quite lynchable even if she is town.

Hence it makes sense to present both of the two town!awaclus scenarios together in one block.

Even more so when you consider that awaclus being town would mean awaclus doesn't know LL's alignment and therefore analysing awaclus's behaviour is much more difficult.

It's the style of doing it I don't like. Glooble "hides" like 75% of the probability mass as if it's just one option of many, then somehow states that that's unlikely and entirely focuses the argument onto the less likely stuff. People in general see a list of options and aren't very good at thinking about how likely each one is.

If you want a fair criticism of me, though, you can complain that I'm only talking about priors, here, and we ought to be talking about posterior probabilities having observed LL and Awa's behaviour. However, I still think that unless there's a huge weight of evidence that Awa himself is scum then the case Glooble presents doesn't have nearly the weight he implies.

Remember also that he was presenting a case that was backing up a vote on Awaclus, in particular that he was asserting that his case was good enough to find Awaclus scummier than LL, considering the behaviour exhibited by both of them.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Glooble on January 27, 2019, 01:33:22 pm
I wasnít really thinking about probability. I was just thinking about what scenarios would explain Awaclusís behavior, and then considering which one made the most sense to me. And when I did this I found the scenarios where Awaclus was scum both seemed to ring true for me in a way that that scenarios where Awaclus was town did not.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on January 27, 2019, 01:49:10 pm
LaLight is the Survivor/recruiter that tried to recruit hyper. Awaclus is some kind of bodyguard/starting recruit who has to keep LaLight alive to win. Thatís why Awaclus is defending LL way more than a normal scum partner would. She has no other option!

How does this work? Is there only one third-faction Anaander group, or more than one? If there's more than one, do they all start with two players, and/or are they all allowed to convert multiple people per day? If not, then Awa being on LL's team, with LL as the leader, makes little sense, because when would Awa have been converted? And why would LL have chosen Awa, who multiple people have said they find quite abrasive and aren't generally sorry to lynch? If there's only one third-faction Anaander group, is the main scum group also Anaander? If so, how are you sure that you can distinguish between LL being part of the third-faction and the regular-mafia versions?

My implicit assumption is that because Aanander who tried to recruit hyper is both recruiter AND survivor, she would start out with one ďrecruitĒ to help keep her alive.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on January 27, 2019, 01:52:55 pm
Re: Gloobleó Iím inclined to err on the side of careless analysis, but there is a slightly scummy ring to the way Glooble changes her votes around. I know Iíve said before that votes without explanation are scummy, but votes with too much information can come off as overcompensating for the former and therefore also scummy.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Haddock on January 27, 2019, 02:01:29 pm
I don't find discussion of absolute probabilities at all helpful.

The absolute probability of any one person being scum is of course lowish, everyone knows that.
I think it's legitimate to talk about likelihoods relative to the baseline, and say someone has a high/low probability of being scum with the implicit caveat that you mean relative to the standard baselines.

That said, I've already pointed out that I disagree with Glooble's points re. Awaclus.
I just don't find it to b