Dominion Strategy Forum

Miscellaneous => Forum Games => Mafia Game Threads => Topic started by: faust on December 31, 2018, 05:07:05 am

Title: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Game over)
Post by: faust on December 31, 2018, 05:07:05 am
Welcome to RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia!

Mod: faust

This is a closed game for 14 players. Some more information will be provided in the next post.

Players:
1. SpaceAnemone
2. jotheonah
3. LaLight
4. DatSwan
5. mail-mi
6. Awaclus
7. 2.71828.....
8. WestCoastDidds
9. Robz888 UmbrageOfSnow
10. hypercube
11. mcmcsalot
12. ashersky
13. Galzria Haddock
14. Glooble

Spectators tagged:

Day starts: Day 1 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=19374.msg782531#msg782531) | Day 2 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=19374.msg783707#msg783707) | Day 3 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=19374.msg785284#msg785284) | Day 4 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=19374.msg786513#msg786513)

General rules

Changes to the usual rule sets are marked in olive.

The Golden Rule:


Please remember that this is a game and your main objective is to have fun!  Be considerate of each other, don’t get personal, and enjoy the game. Please read The Civility Pledge (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=7695.0) before signing up for any mafia game on this site.  If you have not /pledged there, you cannot play. Excessive personal attacks or uncivil behavior may be dealt with by modifiers or modkills.

1. General Gameplay and Etiquette:

1. You may not quote information (either real or fabricated) from any game-related source other than the thread you are posting in. This means no quotes from PMs and no quotes from QTs in the main thread or in another QT. Paraphrasing is acceptable. If you are unsure whether a post is legal, please ask the moderator before posting.
2. There is to be NO personal communication outside of the forum postings and the QTs specifically designed for this purpose.
3. As a general rule you should aim for one post every 12 hours, minimum, to keep the game moving.

2. Voting, Deadlines, and Player Death:

1. Day phases will last 7 days, Night lasts at least 48 hours. Night action deadline is 36 hours after night start.
2. A simple majority (rounded up) of all living members must agree on one person for a lynch to occur prior to deadline.
3. Once you have reached a simple majority no further unvoting will change someone’s fate. Further votes will also be ignored.
4. Once a player is lynched, the game enters twilight until the mod locks the thread; all players including the one who was lynched may continue to post during twilight.
5. If the deadline is hit without a player reaching the majority of votes, the player that would take the least number of additional votes to lynch dies. If there is a tie, a town player dies before a non-town player. Otherwise, who dies is determined randomly.
6. Please submit votes as: Vote: PlayerName.  Votes in another format may or may not be counted. This is up to the mod's discretion. Obvious abbreviations or nicknames will be counted so long as they are unambiguous.
7. Please submit vote revocations Unvote. Unvotes are not necessary before changing votes.
8. You may Vote: No Lynch - a simple majority of these vote types are required to send the game to Night phase without a lynch.
10. Any time you are dead (either via lynch or night kill) you may no longer post in the game or in shared Quicktopics. This means that you do not even get a “Bah” post. The dead in this game are silent.
11. If the thread is locked, you may not post.  Threads can be locked for various reasons, but no matter what the reason, you may not post.  The mod may forget to lock the thread, but if they say it is locked, it is still locked.

3. Miscellaneous/Mechanics:

1. Bold, olive text is reserved for the mod.  No invisible/small text is allowed, nor is cryptography.
2. If you have an issue/problem with the game, please discuss this in your role QT.  Do not post issues/complaints in the game thread.
3. The Mods may make mistakes - please point out any mistakes gently.  Mistakes will be corrected where possible, but sometimes mistakes are made that cannot be reversed.  These will stand as final to be commiserated over after the game.
4. Please bold all requests to the Mods so that they don’t get missed.
5. Prods of missing players may be issued after 24 hours of no activity.  A prodded player has 24 hours to respond or risks replacement.  A player who has been prodded 2 times is subject to replacement under rule 3.9 without further notice. Players with announced VLA are exempt from this rule the first time it happens.
6. If you anticipate being unavailable for more than a 48-hour period please post a notice to that effect in the thread.  Treat this game as a commitment.  Be considerate – don’t leave us hanging. Players who fail to post for 48 hours without an announcement risk being subject to replacement and/or being modkilled without further notice.
7. Please do not discuss ongoing games, it can unintentionally affect the other game. Do not discuss this game in any thread that is not directly related to it.
8. Rule violations will be dealt with according to their severity, which may include modkill(s) if needed.
9. Players who discover they are too busy to play in a game or want to leave the game for civility issues are not allowed to officially /out in the thread.  A request to /out must only be done via a post in the role QT. Please do not use this as a manipulation technique.  (Note players may continue to threaten to /out or imply that they might as long as it does not include an official request). Requests to /out are final once submitted. There will be no /outing and then /inning back into the game so make sure that when you /out you have thought it through and really want to do it. Players that can't be replaced will simply be mod-killed. Whether your request to /out will lead to replacement or a modkill is up to the mod's discretion.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Signups open!)
Post by: faust on December 31, 2018, 05:07:17 am
Setup

This is a closed setup. It contains roles with abilities designed specifically for this game as well as standard abilities. A player may have more or less than one ability. There is at least one possibility in this game for a player to change their alignment. Care has been taken to make this as balanced as possible. Noone's alignment can change without their consent.

Some roles in this game are AIs. Those may interact differently with other abilities than non-AI roles.

A note on flavor

This game uses the flavor from the Imperial Radch book series by Ann Leckie. Knowledge of the flavor is not required to play the game, but may enhance your experience. The setting is roughly at the start of the second book. I have taken some liberties with the source material in order to fit it to a mafia framework.

Town is known as Radch-aligned in this game. The town win condition is as follows:
Quote
You win when all threats to the Radch have been eliminated, and there is at least one Radch-aligned player left alive, or nothing can stop this from happening.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Signups open!)
Post by: Awaclus on December 31, 2018, 06:15:39 am
Welcome to RMM48: Cancer Mafia!

Cool! I've always wanted to play RMM48: Cancer Mafia!
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Signups open!)
Post by: faust on December 31, 2018, 06:42:21 am
Welcome to RMM48: Cancer Mafia!

Cool! I've always wanted to play RMM48: Cancer Mafia!

Oops. Fixed.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Signups open!)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on December 31, 2018, 12:32:27 pm
Very much /in!!
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Signups open!)
Post by: jotheonah on December 31, 2018, 01:35:03 pm
I was going to run a RM! But you can go first. :P

I love the Ancillary Series and I love role madness so I'm totes /in.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Signups open!)
Post by: LaLight on January 01, 2019, 08:00:15 am
/in, but don’t know the flavor
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Signups open!)
Post by: Swowl on January 01, 2019, 08:53:14 pm
/in
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Signups open!)
Post by: mail-mi on January 02, 2019, 12:52:27 am
/in

Hello
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Signups open!)
Post by: faust on January 02, 2019, 03:31:31 am
/in

Hello
Wow, welcome back! Has it really been 2 years already?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Signups open!)
Post by: LaLight on January 02, 2019, 06:28:19 am
/in

Hello

Hi! Yesterday I was walking with Calamitas who is now in Moscow and we were talking about you! Nice to have you back
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Signups open!)
Post by: Awaclus on January 02, 2019, 06:42:44 am
/in
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Signups open!)
Post by: mail-mi on January 02, 2019, 04:32:48 pm
/in

Hello
Wow, welcome back! Has it really been 2 years already?

It has. 2 years and a month, almost. It's good to be back.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Signups open!)
Post by: mail-mi on January 02, 2019, 04:33:27 pm
/in

Hello

Hi! Yesterday I was walking with Calamitas who is now in Moscow and we were talking about you! Nice to have you back

Aww, I'm touched.  ;D
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Signups open!)
Post by: 2.71828..... on January 03, 2019, 09:36:21 am
/in
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Signups open!)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on January 03, 2019, 02:13:17 pm
Hooray for the Radch!

/in
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Signups open!)
Post by: Swowl on January 04, 2019, 08:48:17 am
/in

bump? :P
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Signups open!)
Post by: Robz888 on January 04, 2019, 11:28:30 am
/in
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Signups open!)
Post by: hypercube on January 04, 2019, 07:29:38 pm
/in
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (4 spots left!)
Post by: mcmcsalot on January 07, 2019, 09:53:32 am
/in
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (3 spots left!)
Post by: ashersky on January 09, 2019, 02:17:44 am
/instead
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (3 spots left!)
Post by: ashersky on January 09, 2019, 02:17:48 am
/instead
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (3 spots left!)
Post by: ashersky on January 09, 2019, 02:18:15 am
Odd.

/in of course.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (2 spots left!)
Post by: UmbrageOfSnow on January 09, 2019, 12:23:02 pm
I don't want to /in on this right now, I'm a bit worried about having enough time for this and modding M121 (and don't know the flavor) but I can probably be a replacement if you need one later, and if it gets far enough into the game that you probably won't need one, send me a Speccy link please!
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (2 spots left!)
Post by: mail-mi on January 09, 2019, 02:45:05 pm
Note: I am only gonna be able to be in 1 mafia game at a time, so if Philosopher's mafia mafia starts before this, I will have to out.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (2 spots left!)
Post by: Galzria on January 09, 2019, 10:14:58 pm
Can anybody find me.... somebody to hammer????
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (2 spots left!)
Post by: Swowl on January 09, 2019, 10:24:16 pm
Can anybody find me.... somebody to hammer????

Clever girl....
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (2 spots left!)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on January 09, 2019, 10:29:15 pm
Nah, dude....that’s me!
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (2 spots left!)
Post by: Swowl on January 09, 2019, 11:13:58 pm
Nah, dude....that’s me!

Wait for it....
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (1 spot left!)
Post by: Glooble on January 10, 2019, 05:19:09 pm
/in

I'm back. jtotheonah convinced me.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (1 spot left!)
Post by: Galzria on January 10, 2019, 08:26:02 pm
/in

I'm back. jtotheonah convinced me.

Glooble!
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (1 spot left!)
Post by: Galzria on January 10, 2019, 08:30:12 pm
/in

I'm back. jtotheonah convinced me.

Glooble!

I think this makes for three separate twin-claims!
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Full! PMs coming soon.)
Post by: faust on January 11, 2019, 07:56:35 am
PMs are out! N0 starts now and lasts until January 13, 2019, 04:00:00 am. Please confirm that you have read your role in your QT.

THREAD LOCKED! (except for tags)
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Night 0)
Post by: Debatepro on January 11, 2019, 12:51:38 pm
/tag
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: faust on January 13, 2019, 04:08:19 am
Athoek System was a relatively quiet corner of the vast expanse of Radch space. System Governor Giarod knew enough of the political game to make sure to keep the balance between the powerful families established here and the will of the so-called common people, and usually the Lord of the Radch would not interfere in local affairs.

But things had changed. Gates had been destroyed, and information on what exactly happened was scarce. Whatever turmoil the Radch was engulfed in, Giarod vowed to keep it out of Athoek System. That was, until she received the call from the Fleet Captain. She felt that the balance she kept was fundamentally disturbed, and it would take all of her to keep everything from toppling and burying herself under it.


Day 1 begins!

Vote Count 1.0

Not Voting (14): SpaceAnemone, jotheonah, LaLight, DatSwan, mail-mi, Awaclus, 2.71828....., WestCoastDidds, Robz888, hypercube, mcmcsalot, ashersky, Galzria, Glooble

WIth 14 alive, it takes 8 to lynch. Day 1 ends on January 20, 2019, 04:00:00 am.

Thread unlocked!
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Awaclus on January 13, 2019, 04:19:41 am
Oh no, I think we accidentally lynched this Not Voting guy.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on January 13, 2019, 04:47:06 am
Oh no, I think we accidentally lynched this Not Voting guy.

Maybe there's still time to save her if we all pile on someone else!

vote: Awaclus
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Awaclus on January 13, 2019, 05:20:50 am
Good idea! Vote: Awaclus
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Galzria on January 13, 2019, 05:22:36 am
Oh no, I think we accidentally lynched this Not Voting guy.

Maybe there's still time to save her if we all pile on someone else!

vote: Awaclus

The only way you would know their preferred gender pronoun already is if you asked already. Which would’ve been during N0. In your scum QT. vote: Space
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Swowl on January 13, 2019, 06:04:20 am
Hey all - I am traveling for another few days. On vacation, not work, so should be around... but the time zone thing kind of messes me up... so probably playing catch up for the next 5 days until I am home.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on January 13, 2019, 07:43:34 am
Oh no, I think we accidentally lynched this Not Voting guy.

Maybe there's still time to save her if we all pile on someone else!

vote: Awaclus

The only way you would know their preferred gender pronoun already is if you asked already. Which would’ve been during N0. In your scum QT. vote: Space

Huh? What even is this "gender" nonsense? You must be an uncivilised outsider! Vote: Galz

And in case anyone's confused, here's a quote from the Ancillary Justice wikipedia page: "The Radchaai do not distinguish people by gender, which Leckie conveys by using female personal pronouns for everybody, and by having the Radchaai main character guess wrongly when she has to use languages with gender-specific pronouns."
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Glooble on January 13, 2019, 07:44:52 am
Oh no, I think we accidentally lynched this Not Voting guy.

Maybe there's still time to save her if we all pile on someone else!

vote: Awaclus

The only way you would know their preferred gender pronoun already is if you asked already. Which would’ve been during N0. In your scum QT. vote: Space

The Radchaii use she/her pronouns for everyone.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Glooble on January 13, 2019, 07:46:40 am
Not knowing that makes you not Radchaii, so... vote: Galzria
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: 2.71828..... on January 13, 2019, 08:16:33 am
Rule #1- never vote based on flavor

Vote: Glooble

Rule #2- Don't lynch people I haven't played with before on D1

Unvote

Rule #3- LaLight is always scum

Vote: LaLight

Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: 2.71828..... on January 13, 2019, 08:19:53 am
And Hi! Traveling today, so might not be too active,
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on January 13, 2019, 09:13:34 am
The universal she/her is one of the reasons the books are awesome! Gender scholars FTW!

I’m a she in both Radchaii and English, tho
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: hypercube on January 13, 2019, 09:18:41 am
Hi everyone!

I haven't read the Radch series, but I have read enough sci-fi to know that the enemy is often space, so vote: Space.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Robz888 on January 13, 2019, 10:41:50 am
I shall do something I have not done in many, many years... Vote: Glooble

Shoutout to Mafia 4!
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mail-mi on January 13, 2019, 11:21:57 am
Hello!

So, I just started college this week and currently my life is homework. I will be as active as I can, but homework takes a higher priority.

That being said, vote: robz
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Glooble on January 13, 2019, 11:42:49 am
Good to see you too, Robz.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: LaLight on January 13, 2019, 12:26:15 pm
You should study, not play! vote: mail-mi
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: jotheonah on January 13, 2019, 12:26:23 pm
Hi everyone!

I’ll vote: Awaclus because I’ve recently learned that wagons is good.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: LaLight on January 13, 2019, 12:27:27 pm
Rule #1- never vote based on flavor

Vote: Glooble

Rule #2- Don't lynch people I haven't played with before on D1

Unvote

Rule #3- LaLight is always scum

Vote: LaLight

Have you ever seen my signature

vote: 2.71828..... for confusing me with ww
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Robz888 on January 13, 2019, 12:28:12 pm
Hello!

So, I just started college this week and currently my life is homework. I will be as active as I can, but homework takes a higher priority.

That being said, vote: robz

Gah you are still so young Vote: Mail-mi
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mail-mi on January 13, 2019, 12:29:27 pm
Hello!

So, I just started college this week and currently my life is homework. I will be as active as I can, but homework takes a higher priority.

That being said, vote: robz

Gah you are still so young Vote: Mail-mi

Robz, here, is demonstrating his tendency toward child abuse. That is a scum trait. ergo, he is scum, let's lynch him

You should study, not play! vote: mail-mi

i have plenty of time

...

Anyway, let's see, who do I not know here...
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mail-mi on January 13, 2019, 12:32:48 pm
1. SpaceAnemone - I've played with you before.
2. jotheonah - I've played with you before too.
3. LaLight - you're cool
4. DatSwan - no idea
5. mail-mi - is the best
6. Awaclus - I've played with you before
7. 2.71828..... - hi e, I'm in a math class right now
8. WestCoastDidds - no idea
9. Robz888 - is scum
10. hypercube - no idea
11. mcmcsalot - is Robz's brother, was new the same time I was new (Remember that first newbie game?)
12. ashersky - good old ash, good to see you again. What's your plan?
13. Galzria - I might have played with you? I think you modded the pirates game
14. Glooble - don't think I've ever played with you.

So, WestCoast, DatSwan, hypercube, and Glooble, what's your mafia playing experience?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: 2.71828..... on January 13, 2019, 12:37:53 pm
7. 2.71828..... - hi e, I'm in a math class right now

Sounds like fun.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: 2.71828..... on January 13, 2019, 12:39:54 pm
Rule #1- never vote based on flavor

Vote: Glooble

Rule #2- Don't lynch people I haven't played with before on D1

Unvote

Rule #3- LaLight is always scum

Vote: LaLight

Have you ever seen my signature

vote: 2.71828..... for confusing me with ww

Well, WW isn't in this game, is he. Had to pick someone to vote for, and you seemed to be a good candidate
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Glooble on January 13, 2019, 12:42:25 pm

So, WestCoast, DatSwan, hypercube, and Glooble, what's your mafia playing experience?

I played in this forum years and years ago. I stopped because I was taking it too seriously and it was stressing me out.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mail-mi on January 13, 2019, 12:45:13 pm

So, WestCoast, DatSwan, hypercube, and Glooble, what's your mafia playing experience?

I played in this forum years and years ago. I stopped because I was taking it too seriously and it was stressing me out.

cool

are you scum?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Glooble on January 13, 2019, 12:46:16 pm

So, WestCoast, DatSwan, hypercube, and Glooble, what's your mafia playing experience?

I played in this forum years and years ago. I stopped because I was taking it too seriously and it was stressing me out.

cool

are you scum?


I am Radch-aligned in this game.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: LaLight on January 13, 2019, 12:47:43 pm

So, WestCoast, DatSwan, hypercube, and Glooble, what's your mafia playing experience?

I played in this forum years and years ago. I stopped because I was taking it too seriously and it was stressing me out.

cool

are you scum?

Are you trying to stress them out?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Galzria on January 13, 2019, 12:50:45 pm
1. SpaceAnemone - I've played with you before.
2. jotheonah - I've played with you before too.
3. LaLight - you're cool
4. DatSwan - no idea
5. mail-mi - is the best
6. Awaclus - I've played with you before
7. 2.71828..... - hi e, I'm in a math class right now
8. WestCoastDidds - no idea
9. Robz888 - is scum
10. hypercube - no idea
11. mcmcsalot - is Robz's brother, was new the same time I was new (Remember that first newbie game?)
12. ashersky - good old ash, good to see you again. What's your plan?
13. Galzria - I might have played with you? I think you modded the pirates game
14. Glooble - don't think I've ever played with you.

So, WestCoast, DatSwan, hypercube, and Glooble, what's your mafia playing experience?

We’ve played many games together! Although it’s been quite awhile...
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: LaLight on January 13, 2019, 12:52:38 pm
Can anyone tell anything about the flavor please?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Galzria on January 13, 2019, 12:53:16 pm
Hello!

So, I just started college this week and currently my life is homework. I will be as active as I can, but homework takes a higher priority.

That being said, vote: robz

Gah you are still so young Vote: Mail-mi

Robz, here, is demonstrating his tendency toward child abuse. That is a scum trait. ergo, he is scum, let's lynch him

You should study, not play! vote: mail-mi

i have plenty of time

...

Anyway, let's see, who do I not know here...

I work with kids, so I appreciate this case. vote: Robz
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Galzria on January 13, 2019, 12:54:23 pm
Oh no, I think we accidentally lynched this Not Voting guy.

Maybe there's still time to save her if we all pile on someone else!

vote: Awaclus

The only way you would know their preferred gender pronoun already is if you asked already. Which would’ve been during N0. In your scum QT. vote: Space

Huh? What even is this "gender" nonsense? You must be an uncivilised outsider! Vote: Galz

And in case anyone's confused, here's a quote from the Ancillary Justice wikipedia page: "The Radchaai do not distinguish people by gender, which Leckie conveys by using female personal pronouns for everybody, and by having the Radchaai main character guess wrongly when she has to use languages with gender-specific pronouns."

Hum. I have been schooled.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Glooble on January 13, 2019, 01:00:35 pm
Can anyone tell anything about the flavor please?

It’s been a little while since I’ve read the books. The Radch is an empire The is expanding, taking over humanity using living ships to annex planets. The ships can also control some number of human bodies, called Ancillaries (you don’t want to know where they get the bodies.) There are aliens, but they are inscrutable and difficult to communicate with. One alien race, the Presger, is only stopped from completely annihilating humanity by a treaty, and if any individual human violates the treaty it would be very, very bad. There’s also the Rrr and the Geck but no one knows much about them.

The Radch is ruled by Aanander Mianani (or something) and her many clones. Her mind is spread across lots of clone bodies all over the empire. Spoilers for book one Her mind seems to have split and now some of her are working against the others, threatening a civil war within the Radch
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mail-mi on January 13, 2019, 01:03:22 pm

So, WestCoast, DatSwan, hypercube, and Glooble, what's your mafia playing experience?

I played in this forum years and years ago. I stopped because I was taking it too seriously and it was stressing me out.

cool

are you scum?

Are you trying to stress them out?

It was just a question
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mail-mi on January 13, 2019, 01:04:13 pm

So, WestCoast, DatSwan, hypercube, and Glooble, what's your mafia playing experience?

I played in this forum years and years ago. I stopped because I was taking it too seriously and it was stressing me out.

cool

are you scum?


I am Radch-aligned in this game.

cool, me too

vote robz with me
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: 2.71828..... on January 13, 2019, 01:09:00 pm

So, WestCoast, DatSwan, hypercube, and Glooble, what's your mafia playing experience?

I played in this forum years and years ago. I stopped because I was taking it too seriously and it was stressing me out.

cool

are you scum?


I am Radch-aligned in this game.

cool, me too

vote robz with me

Robz is never scum D1 though. Maybe D3 or 4
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Glooble on January 13, 2019, 01:15:59 pm

So, WestCoast, DatSwan, hypercube, and Glooble, what's your mafia playing experience?

I played in this forum years and years ago. I stopped because I was taking it too seriously and it was stressing me out.

cool

are you scum?


I am Radch-aligned in this game.

cool, me too

vote robz with me

Normally I don’t like to vote for someone just for voting for me. What’s the case for Robz?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: jotheonah on January 13, 2019, 01:28:20 pm
Oh by the way: Twinclaim. Glooble and I are twins.

This is actually the original twinclaim from which the term originates.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Robz888 on January 13, 2019, 01:49:22 pm
Gloobe and Jo are twins, me and mcmc are brothers, and Galz and DatSwan are roommates. Many twinclaims!
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: jotheonah on January 13, 2019, 02:06:52 pm
Gloobe and Jo are twins, me and mcmc are brothers, and Galz and DatSwan are roommates. Many twinclaims!

it seems like e and mail-mi maybe know each other too.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: 2.71828..... on January 13, 2019, 03:27:24 pm
Gloobe and Jo are twins, me and mcmc are brothers, and Galz and DatSwan are roommates. Many twinclaims!

it seems like e and mail-mi maybe know each other too.

We don't. I was a math major though....so long ago....
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on January 13, 2019, 03:44:06 pm
Can anyone tell anything about the flavor please?

It’s been a little while since I’ve read the books. The Radch is an empire The is expanding, taking over humanity using living ships to annex planets. The ships can also control some number of human bodies, called Ancillaries (you don’t want to know where they get the bodies.) There are aliens, but they are inscrutable and difficult to communicate with. One alien race, the Presger, is only stopped from completely annihilating humanity by a treaty, and if any individual human violates the treaty it would be very, very bad. There’s also the Rrr and the Geck but no one knows much about them.

The Radch is ruled by Aanander Mianani (or something) and her many clones. Her mind is spread across lots of clone bodies all over the empire. Spoilers for book one Her mind seems to have split and now some of her are working against the others, threatening a civil war within the Radch

All of this is correct, also, the lead character is Breq (the Fleet Captain), she is the AI of a ship contained in a human body. She once had lots of bodies, but now has just one, but she still has the awareness that she her mind used to be in many bodies. Her second in command is Seivarden, a human.

AIs are all over the place...Ships are AIs, and the space stations have an AI, too. Some beings have accesses where they can communicate directly with the Ship or Station on a private channel and they have access to the information they get forommcareras, connected soldiers, and other ship/station data. AIs try to keep the peace, and they have been programmed with emotions so that they can actively look out for the well being of their humans.

In the books, there are two factions Radchaii factions at odds with another.  One side is trying to shift from conquering new worlds and enslaving the humans that live there and is pushing for expansion and continued use of ancillaries. Most of the folx (humans and AIs) in Apotheok quadrant are of the former, but the latter are more dangerous.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on January 13, 2019, 03:51:56 pm

@mail-mi (and Glooble) I’m relatively new....I’ve played 4 games since August when I joined. Hypercube and I started together in NM11. I knew nothing about that game at all before then. I have lots of newb questions and enjoy the games most when the late-night bourbon gang is posting. 

School is just starting for me, too, but I teach so subistitute grading for homework, whatever...the struggle is real. On T/Th, I pretty much can only play during office hours. So, if you wonder what people do during office hours....
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: LaLight on January 13, 2019, 03:57:12 pm
yeah well, I basically only play during office hours with really rare exceptions, hence the limited access on weekends
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on January 13, 2019, 04:03:16 pm
yeah well, I basically only play during office hours with really rare exceptions, hence the limited access on weekends

And here I thought you just had a really healthy life/work/game balance!
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: LaLight on January 13, 2019, 04:03:58 pm
yeah well, I basically only play during office hours with really rare exceptions, hence the limited access on weekends

And here I thought you just had a really healthy life/work/game balance!

well, you're not entirely wrong :)
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Robz888 on January 13, 2019, 04:45:08 pm
In the last RMM game I played, I had the ability to switch alignments, and I switched from evil to good to help the town, and Galz didn't believe me!
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: jotheonah on January 13, 2019, 04:47:32 pm
I have a feeling, based on flavor, that alignment switching is not going to be voluntary. I suspect Aanander Mianani will have some kind of cult leader mechanic. Could be wrong of course.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Signups open!)
Post by: Awaclus on January 13, 2019, 04:49:05 pm
I have a feeling, based on flavor, that alignment switching is not going to be voluntary. I suspect Aanander Mianani will have some kind of cult leader mechanic. Could be wrong of course.

Noone's alignment can change without their consent.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: jotheonah on January 13, 2019, 04:53:02 pm
I stand corrected.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on January 13, 2019, 05:39:16 pm
People who have given at least some indication they've read Ancillary Justice: WCD, Glooble, joth (and me!)

People who appear not to know the flavour at all: Galz, LL.

What about the rest of you?

Fun fact: I once cosplayed Breq at a convention. I usually hate dressing up, but walking around with a pretty tea bowl wearing an "Awn Elming" pin seemed acceptable :-)
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Glooble on January 13, 2019, 05:44:02 pm
Did you get the pin from one of her readings?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on January 13, 2019, 05:44:28 pm
yeah well, I basically only play during office hours with really rare exceptions, hence the limited access on weekends

And here I thought you just had a really healthy life/work/game balance!

Are the two of you using different definitions of "office hours" here? :-P
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on January 13, 2019, 05:45:49 pm
Did you get the pin from one of her readings?

I bought a bag of them from her on Etsy for me and several other friends here who're fans. It came with signed book plates :-)

(I'm based in the UK.. not sure she does a lot of readings over here).
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mail-mi on January 13, 2019, 05:52:39 pm
People who have given at least some indication they've read Ancillary Justice: WCD, Glooble, joth (and me!)

People who appear not to know the flavour at all: Galz, LL.

What about the rest of you?

Fun fact: I once cosplayed Breq at a convention. I usually hate dressing up, but walking around with a pretty tea bowl wearing an "Awn Elming" pin seemed acceptable :-)

I have 0 knowledge of flavor. Is there a Radch wiki I can read that would help?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on January 13, 2019, 05:53:45 pm
On the subject of being in the UK, what timezones are the rest of you in? Who's actually likely to be awake for a 4am forum time deadline?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: 2.71828..... on January 13, 2019, 05:58:44 pm
I have no knowledge of the flavor.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on January 13, 2019, 05:59:40 pm
People who have given at least some indication they've read Ancillary Justice: WCD, Glooble, joth (and me!)

People who appear not to know the flavour at all: Galz, LL.

What about the rest of you?

Fun fact: I once cosplayed Breq at a convention. I usually hate dressing up, but walking around with a pretty tea bowl wearing an "Awn Elming" pin seemed acceptable :-)

I have 0 knowledge of flavor. Is there a Radch wiki I can read that would help?

Hmm.. no idea really. Google finds me this wiki, but I haven't determined whether it's something you'd think would help: http://imperial-radch.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Content

I can definitely recommend reading Ancillary Justice, though!
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mail-mi on January 13, 2019, 05:59:55 pm
On the subject of being in the UK, what timezones are the rest of you in? Who's actually likely to be awake for a 4am forum time deadline?

I'm in mountain time zone, so it'll be 2 am for me. I can probably be there til like 2 hours before deadline
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Glooble on January 13, 2019, 06:06:54 pm
I’m in Eastern time but I go to bed pretty early.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on January 13, 2019, 06:13:47 pm

Fun fact: I once cosplayed Breq at a convention. I usually hate dressing up, but walking around with a pretty tea bowl wearing an "Awn Elming" pin seemed acceptable :-)

I love this!
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Awaclus on January 13, 2019, 06:14:55 pm
I'm in UTC+2. I woke up at 21 today (technically yesterday) and I'm trying to fix my sleep schedule by moving it forward so I would assume that I'm awake for the deadline at least on D1, but no guarantees.

I haven't even heard of the flavor.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on January 13, 2019, 06:15:54 pm
I’m in Eastern time but I go to bed pretty early.

Is eastern the same as forum time?

I'm guessing from mail-mi's comment that Mountain is FT-2.

I'm on FT+5, but my sleep hours are 1am-9am local time, so that is exactly the 8 hours running up to the deadline.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on January 13, 2019, 06:18:18 pm
Yes, forum time is Eastern. I’m an in US Central, an hour behind Forum Time (FT-1).

I go to bed before 10 on weekdays, so definitely not around at deadline
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Awaclus on January 13, 2019, 06:18:37 pm
Man, this is such a crappy wagon. Let's join a different one.

Vote: Galzria
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: hypercube on January 13, 2019, 07:00:57 pm
So, WestCoast, DatSwan, hypercube, and Glooble, what's your mafia playing experience?

This is my fourth game of forum mafia. I've played a decent amount IRL as well.

I'm in UTC +1, usual posting hours for me are 500 FT to 1900 FT or so. I should be able to make a 400 FT deadline.

Note that we have plurality lynching but having a tied vote is really bad:

Quote
If the deadline is hit without a player reaching the majority of votes, the player that would take the least number of additional votes to lynch dies. If there is a tie, a town player dies before a non-town player. Otherwise, who dies is determined randomly.

The wording "the player that would take the least number of additional votes to lynch dies" seems non-standard and suggests that there's going to be something strange going on with voting.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mail-mi on January 13, 2019, 07:01:32 pm
Townread on space. I remember him usually doing all this setup and stuff like this as town

Or maybe it's just a spaceread on space.

Man, this is such a crappy wagon. Let's join a different one.

Vote: Galzria

ok vote: galzria
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Robz888 on January 13, 2019, 07:14:35 pm
I have zero knowledge of the flavor and won't learn it.

The disclaimer about alignment switches makes me think we will have them, somehow. I think it's something faust would enjoy trying to do and figure out how to make it balanced. Some kind of cult mechanic isn't crazy either, though. Maybe scum can recruit?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on January 13, 2019, 07:17:57 pm
I remember him usually doing all this setup and stuff like this as town

Okay, let's get this out of the way: I AM NOT, AND NEVER HAVE BEEN, A "HE"!!! Sorry for being shouty, but while you've been gone, the whole forum has got a lot more progressive about respecting people's gender presentation and pronouns, and I'd really like to keep that progress!

My preferred pronoun is they/them, and it's even in my sig line to help people remember. I'll settle for she/her in general, and especially for this game, since it's very in keeping for the flavour.



Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mail-mi on January 13, 2019, 07:20:46 pm
I remember him usually doing all this setup and stuff like this as town

Okay, let's get this out of the way: I AM NOT, AND NEVER HAVE BEEN, A "HE"!!! Sorry for being shouty, but while you've been gone, the whole forum has got a lot more progressive about respecting people's gender presentation and pronouns, and I'd really like to keep that progress!

My preferred pronoun is they/them, and it's even in my sig line to help people remember. I'll settle for she/her in general, and especially for this game, since it's very in keeping for the flavour.
WOOPS sorry about that.

Townread on space, I remember her doing this setup stuff as town
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on January 13, 2019, 07:28:59 pm
Actually, Vote: mail-mi

While it might sound like pronoun-omgus, I've just realised that I haven't been doing setup stuff at all, so characterizing me as having done so is weird. I've talked about the flavour, because it's something I like, and about timezones because it's something I'm generally conscious of as someone who's not on the American continent.

I haven't really begun posting my thoughts on how the game mechanics and real set-up stuff might go, because the stuff I've thought of doesn't really fit with a anything I'd see as a balanced game.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Awaclus on January 13, 2019, 07:29:27 pm
it's even in my sig line to help people remember.

To be fair, the way you have it in your sig mostly just makes it look like you modded the Pronouns: they/them mafia.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mail-mi on January 13, 2019, 07:34:23 pm
Actually, Vote: mail-mi

While it might sound like pronoun-omgus, I've just realised that I haven't been doing setup stuff at all, so characterizing me as having done so is weird. I've talked about the flavour, because it's something I like, and about timezones because it's something I'm generally conscious of as someone who's not on the American continent.

I haven't really begun posting my thoughts on how the game mechanics and real set-up stuff might go, because the stuff I've thought of doesn't really fit with a anything I'd see as a balanced game.

By "set up" stuff I was talking about flavor and time zones, along with the game set up. Honestly it's a closed game so there's not much actual set up stuff we can do

Actually for those that know flavor, would a flavor claim be good? Or not
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: jotheonah on January 13, 2019, 07:43:22 pm
vote: mail-mi

Mass claims on day one are always a bad idea.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Robz888 on January 13, 2019, 07:59:39 pm
Vote: Jotheonah

This felt like pouncing on mail-mi for something that might very well be wrong but was not especially likely to come from scum. (Town needs no help tricking itself into mass claiming.)
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: 2.71828..... on January 13, 2019, 08:19:25 pm
Vote: Jotheonah

This felt like pouncing on mail-mi for something that might very well be wrong but was not especially likely to come from scum. (Town needs no help tricking itself into mass claiming.)

I can sheep that vote.

Vote: jotheonah
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mail-mi on January 13, 2019, 08:21:07 pm
ah, a day 1 wagon on me. some things never change

vote: mail-mi

Mass claims on day one are always a bad idea.

You're probably right. I guess a better question would be, are there obvious flavor names that would be scum?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mail-mi on January 13, 2019, 08:21:21 pm
Also unvote
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: jotheonah on January 13, 2019, 08:24:10 pm
Vote: Jotheonah

This felt like pouncing on mail-mi for something that might very well be wrong but was not especially likely to come from scum. (Town needs no help tricking itself into mass claiming.)

When does scum ever actually do this? Scum doesn't need to pounce at this juncture. Scum just needs to wait for a good-looking town wagon and slide onboard.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: 2.71828..... on January 13, 2019, 08:25:08 pm
ah, a day 1 wagon on me. some things never change

vote: mail-mi

Mass claims on day one are always a bad idea.

You're probably right. I guess a better question would be, are there obvious flavor names that would be scum?

There are probably obvious scum flavors, but I doubt that the game would be designed in such a way that a mass claim would out scum on D1.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: jotheonah on January 13, 2019, 08:26:07 pm
I suspect scum has been given fake claims if their flavor would give them away.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mail-mi on January 13, 2019, 08:31:12 pm
ah, a day 1 wagon on me. some things never change

vote: mail-mi

Mass claims on day one are always a bad idea.

You're probably right. I guess a better question would be, are there obvious flavor names that would be scum?

There are probably obvious scum flavors, but I doubt that the game would be designed in such a way that a mass claim would out scum on D1.

You are also probably right. Worth a suggestion, at least.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: hypercube on January 13, 2019, 08:57:04 pm
Vote: Jotheonah

This felt like pouncing on mail-mi for something that might very well be wrong but was not especially likely to come from scum. (Town needs no help tricking itself into mass claiming.)

When does scum ever actually do this? Scum doesn't need to pounce at this juncture. Scum just needs to wait for a good-looking town wagon and slide onboard.

Well, scum wants to look like they're.scumhunting.

vote: joth
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mail-mi on January 13, 2019, 09:07:20 pm
Vote: Jotheonah

This felt like pouncing on mail-mi for something that might very well be wrong but was not especially likely to come from scum. (Town needs no help tricking itself into mass claiming.)

When does scum ever actually do this? Scum doesn't need to pounce at this juncture. Scum just needs to wait for a good-looking town wagon and slide onboard.

Well, scum wants to look like they're.scumhunting.

vote: joth

vote: hypercube

This is exactly the position scum wants to be on the wagon. Voting for someone who already has votes, and turning a couple votes into an actual wagon

I know that didn't make much sense, I'm having a hard time putting my thoughts into words. I hope you (meaning the general populus)understands what I'm trying to say
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: hypercube on January 13, 2019, 09:10:33 pm
Vote: Jotheonah

This felt like pouncing on mail-mi for something that might very well be wrong but was not especially likely to come from scum. (Town needs no help tricking itself into mass claiming.)

When does scum ever actually do this? Scum doesn't need to pounce at this juncture. Scum just needs to wait for a good-looking town wagon and slide onboard.

Well, scum wants to look like they're.scumhunting.

vote: joth

vote: hypercube

This is exactly the position scum wants to be on the wagon. Voting for someone who already has votes, and turning a couple votes into an actual wagon

I know that didn't make much sense, I'm having a hard time putting my thoughts into words. I hope you (meaning the general populus)understands what I'm trying to say

Wagons are good, I will proudly take my place as the person who turned a couple of votes into a wagon.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mail-mi on January 13, 2019, 09:11:31 pm
Vote: Jotheonah

This felt like pouncing on mail-mi for something that might very well be wrong but was not especially likely to come from scum. (Town needs no help tricking itself into mass claiming.)

When does scum ever actually do this? Scum doesn't need to pounce at this juncture. Scum just needs to wait for a good-looking town wagon and slide onboard.

Well, scum wants to look like they're.scumhunting.

vote: joth

vote: hypercube

This is exactly the position scum wants to be on the wagon. Voting for someone who already has votes, and turning a couple votes into an actual wagon

I know that didn't make much sense, I'm having a hard time putting my thoughts into words. I hope you (meaning the general populus)understands what I'm trying to say

Wagons are good, I will proudly take my place as the person who turned a couple of votes into a wagon.

good to know
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on January 13, 2019, 09:23:53 pm
@Hyper- Thanks for the reminder about the plurality things and the anti-town tie vote resolution. It does seem unusual and worth noting but it’s buried in the start up text.

Yes, everyone is a she this game! Hooray!
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Swowl on January 13, 2019, 10:54:20 pm
1. SpaceAnemone - I've played with you before.
2. jotheonah - I've played with you before too.
3. LaLight - you're cool
4. DatSwan - no idea
5. mail-mi - is the best
6. Awaclus - I've played with you before
7. 2.71828..... - hi e, I'm in a math class right now
8. WestCoastDidds - no idea
9. Robz888 - is scum
10. hypercube - no idea
11. mcmcsalot - is Robz's brother, was new the same time I was new (Remember that first newbie game?)
12. ashersky - good old ash, good to see you again. What's your plan?
13. Galzria - I might have played with you? I think you modded the pirates game
14. Glooble - don't think I've ever played with you.

So, WestCoast, DatSwan, hypercube, and Glooble, what's your mafia playing experience?

Galz got me hooked almost 2 years back now i guess (maybe a year and a half). I think i have played about a dozen on fds.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mail-mi on January 13, 2019, 10:58:09 pm
So what is everyone's preferred pronoun?

Mine is he/him
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Swowl on January 13, 2019, 10:59:20 pm
I am he/ him and also editing my previous post - evidently more like 20 games on fds.... oh how time flies
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Awaclus on January 14, 2019, 01:30:08 am
So what is everyone's preferred pronoun?

Mine is he/him

I don't particularly have a preferred pronoun but I'm male so he/him is technically correct.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: LaLight on January 14, 2019, 01:48:47 am
So what is everyone's preferred pronoun?

Mine is he/him

I don't particularly have a preferred pronoun but I'm male so he/him is technically correct.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: LaLight on January 14, 2019, 03:21:16 am
Quote
If the deadline is hit without a player reaching the majority of votes, the player that would take the least number of additional votes to lynch dies. If there is a tie, a town player dies before a non-town player. Otherwise, who dies is determined randomly.

The wording "the player that would take the least number of additional votes to lynch dies" seems non-standard and suggests that there's going to be something strange going on with voting.

I've been thinking about that. I think hated/loved is in play considering the wording? Other than that it's pretty strange about town player duing before non-town one.

faust, will it be possible to differ the "town player before non-town dies" or if it is a coin flip? I mean if two people have the same amount of votes, will it be possible to recognize if the one who would be lynched is a town and the second is a non-town or if that was a coin flip?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: LaLight on January 14, 2019, 03:23:03 am
Addition to the previous question:if one of the player is Hated and is lynched because of that, will you point to that in some way?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: LaLight on January 14, 2019, 03:24:47 am
oh, and also vote: hypercube for reading the setup
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: faust on January 14, 2019, 03:37:25 am
Vote Count 1.1

Galzria (2): Glooble, Awaclus
Robz888 (1): Galzria
mail-mi (2): SpaceAnemone, jotheonah
jotheonah (3): Robz888, 2.71828....., hypercube
hypercube (2): mail-mi, LaLight

Not Voting (4): DatSwan, WestCoastDidds, mcmcsalot, ashersky

WIth 14 alive, it takes 8 to lynch. Day 1 ends on January 20, 2019, 04:00:00 am.

faust, will it be possible to differ the "town player before non-town dies" or if it is a coin flip? I mean if two people have the same amount of votes, will it be possible to recognize if the one who would be lynched is a town and the second is a non-town or if that was a coin flip?
No.

Addition to the previous question:if one of the player is Hated and is lynched because of that, will you point to that in some way?
No.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: LaLight on January 14, 2019, 04:33:33 am
ok then

should we just wagon two or more players that are the scummiest every day, so we will have a bit of extra info?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: LaLight on January 14, 2019, 04:34:29 am
screw that, it's a bad idea
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Glooble on January 14, 2019, 07:27:21 am
I don’t love any of these new wagons that are forming, but my Galz vote was more or less completely random and now I have better options. Hypercube, I’m leaning towards changing my vote to you right now. Would you care to explain your vote for joth and your “wagons are good” comment? It seems to me that rushing a wagon at this point makes a lot more sense if you’re scum.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: hypercube on January 14, 2019, 07:41:30 am
I don’t love any of these new wagons that are forming, but my Galz vote was more or less completely random and now I have better options. Hypercube, I’m leaning towards changing my vote to you right now. Would you care to explain your vote for joth and your “wagons are good” comment? It seems to me that rushing a wagon at this point makes a lot more sense if you’re scum.

I thought Robz's point about joth jumping on mail-mi for something that scum probably doesn't need to do (pushing a flavour claim) was reasonable, and I wanted to move off of my jokey vote on Space.

Wagons are good for several reasons: they lead to the player being wagoned defending themselves, which gives more information as to their alignment, they give us a record of people's opinions which will be useful once we have some flips, and they move the game along out of the fluffy early part.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: hypercube on January 14, 2019, 07:47:14 am
I use he/him pronouns but if you want to really get into the flavour and use feminine ones for me that's fine.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Glooble on January 14, 2019, 08:16:54 am
oh, and also vote: hypercube for reading the setup

What do you mean by this? Is this just an early random vote?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on January 14, 2019, 08:38:23 am

Happy Monday, friends! I hope it’s a great week!

Lalight (or anyone), can you tell me what hates/loved means? Also, twinclaim? Thank you!
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mail-mi on January 14, 2019, 08:45:05 am

Happy Monday, friends! I hope it’s a great week!

Lalight (or anyone), can you tell me what hates/loved means? Also, twinclaim? Thank you!

If someone is hated, they take 1 less vote to lynch. It's the opposite with someone who is loved

Twinclaim means that 2 or more people know each other in real life.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: LaLight on January 14, 2019, 08:45:47 am
oh, and also vote: hypercube for reading the setup

What do you mean by this? Is this just an early random vote?

In my experience scum is more inclined to read the setup thoroughly to not accidentally show they have more information than other people
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: jotheonah on January 14, 2019, 09:03:41 am
Vote: Jotheonah

This felt like pouncing on mail-mi for something that might very well be wrong but was not especially likely to come from scum. (Town needs no help tricking itself into mass claiming.)

When does scum ever actually do this? Scum doesn't need to pounce at this juncture. Scum just needs to wait for a good-looking town wagon and slide onboard.

Well, scum wants to look like they're.scumhunting.

vote: joth

vote: hypercube

This is exactly the position scum wants to be on the wagon. Voting for someone who already has votes, and turning a couple votes into an actual wagon

I know that didn't make much sense, I'm having a hard time putting my thoughts into words. I hope you (meaning the general populus)understands what I'm trying to say

What do people think of this post from mail-mi? Specifically, responding to a vote on himself by voting for the person who's voting for him?

To me it kind of reinforces my scumread, though I can't quite say why.

Like I actually don't think the point he's making is bad. But it's a really interesting way to respond to a vote on him and an immediate wagon on the person who voted for him.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: hypercube on January 14, 2019, 09:04:37 am
oh, and also vote: hypercube for reading the setup

What do you mean by this? Is this just an early random vote?

In my experience scum is more inclined to read the setup thoroughly to not accidentally show they have more information than other people

If I was scum I doubt I would have pointed that out. I'm well aware that I'm not going to be getting any town points for doing so.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: hypercube on January 14, 2019, 09:10:59 am
Vote: Jotheonah

This felt like pouncing on mail-mi for something that might very well be wrong but was not especially likely to come from scum. (Town needs no help tricking itself into mass claiming.)

When does scum ever actually do this? Scum doesn't need to pounce at this juncture. Scum just needs to wait for a good-looking town wagon and slide onboard.

Well, scum wants to look like they're.scumhunting.

vote: joth

vote: hypercube

This is exactly the position scum wants to be on the wagon. Voting for someone who already has votes, and turning a couple votes into an actual wagon

I know that didn't make much sense, I'm having a hard time putting my thoughts into words. I hope you (meaning the general populus)understands what I'm trying to say

What do people think of this post from mail-mi? Specifically, responding to a vote on himself by voting for the person who's voting for him?

To me it kind of reinforces my scumread, though I can't quite say why.

Like I actually don't think the point he's making is bad. But it's a really interesting way to respond to a vote on him and an immediate wagon on the person who voted for him.

I also thought it was a strange reaction; I'm not sure what to think of mail-mi at this point. Trying to discourage wagons from forming feels like it could just be anti-town town play.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Glooble on January 14, 2019, 09:25:58 am
Well this has been enlightening. I have to go do work away from my computer, I'll check in at lunch if I have time, in the meantime,

vote:mail-mi

Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: 2.71828..... on January 14, 2019, 09:29:30 am
Vote: hypercube

I like joth's reaction, let's change up a bit
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on January 14, 2019, 09:36:27 am
Vote: Jotheonah

This felt like pouncing on mail-mi for something that might very well be wrong but was not especially likely to come from scum. (Town needs no help tricking itself into mass claiming.)

When does scum ever actually do this? Scum doesn't need to pounce at this juncture. Scum just needs to wait for a good-looking town wagon and slide onboard.

Well, scum wants to look like they're.scumhunting.

vote: joth

vote: hypercube

This is exactly the position scum wants to be on the wagon. Voting for someone who already has votes, and turning a couple votes into an actual wagon

I know that didn't make much sense, I'm having a hard time putting my thoughts into words. I hope you (meaning the general populus)understands what I'm trying to say

What do people think of this post from mail-mi? Specifically, responding to a vote on himself by voting for the person who's voting for him?

To me it kind of reinforces my scumread, though I can't quite say why.

Like I actually don't think the point he's making is bad. But it's a really interesting way to respond to a vote on him and an immediate wagon on the person who voted for him.

I also thought it was a strange reaction; I'm not sure what to think of mail-mi at this point. Trying to discourage wagons from forming feels like it could just be anti-town town play.

I’m having a hard time following because we seem to be talking in a circle. Mail-mi seems to be saying that scum can take advantage of wagons. Well,obvi.

But I’m not sure wagons are anti-town because of all the reasons that they provide good info.

The votes coming out of this discussion seem a bit meh to me, though. More odd attempted articulations of some not terribly important points, it seems to me. Similarly, I’m not finding hyper scummy for reading the set up carefully. I think as a relative newb, I read carefully so that I can make sure I understand what is going on and since I am even more unaccustomed to closed games, that kind of thing feels important to me. so, what he’s doing makes sense to me and reminding us all of the plurality seems pro-town.  I’d find it way more suspicious if he was one of the more experienced players.

Speaking of, more experienced players....where you at?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mail-mi on January 14, 2019, 09:51:28 am
Vote: Jotheonah

This felt like pouncing on mail-mi for something that might very well be wrong but was not especially likely to come from scum. (Town needs no help tricking itself into mass claiming.)

When does scum ever actually do this? Scum doesn't need to pounce at this juncture. Scum just needs to wait for a good-looking town wagon and slide onboard.

Well, scum wants to look like they're.scumhunting.

vote: joth

vote: hypercube

This is exactly the position scum wants to be on the wagon. Voting for someone who already has votes, and turning a couple votes into an actual wagon

I know that didn't make much sense, I'm having a hard time putting my thoughts into words. I hope you (meaning the general populus)understands what I'm trying to say

What do people think of this post from mail-mi? Specifically, responding to a vote on himself by voting for the person who's voting for him?

To me it kind of reinforces my scumread, though I can't quite say why.

Like I actually don't think the point he's making is bad. But it's a really interesting way to respond to a vote on him and an immediate wagon on the person who voted for him.

I also thought it was a strange reaction; I'm not sure what to think of mail-mi at this point. Trying to discourage wagons from forming feels like it could just be anti-town town play.

I'm not necessarily discouraging wagons from forming (for example, I'm currently enjoying the wagon on you), I just think you decided to place yourself on a particularly scummy place on said wagon. Is my scum read on you particularly strong? No, but it's early day 1, so it's something to go on.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mail-mi on January 14, 2019, 09:53:04 am
Vote: Jotheonah

This felt like pouncing on mail-mi for something that might very well be wrong but was not especially likely to come from scum. (Town needs no help tricking itself into mass claiming.)

When does scum ever actually do this? Scum doesn't need to pounce at this juncture. Scum just needs to wait for a good-looking town wagon and slide onboard.

Well, scum wants to look like they're.scumhunting.

vote: joth

vote: hypercube

This is exactly the position scum wants to be on the wagon. Voting for someone who already has votes, and turning a couple votes into an actual wagon

I know that didn't make much sense, I'm having a hard time putting my thoughts into words. I hope you (meaning the general populus)understands what I'm trying to say

What do people think of this post from mail-mi? Specifically, responding to a vote on himself by voting for the person who's voting for him?

To me it kind of reinforces my scumread, though I can't quite say why.

Like I actually don't think the point he's making is bad. But it's a really interesting way to respond to a vote on him and an immediate wagon on the person who voted for him.

I also thought it was a strange reaction; I'm not sure what to think of mail-mi at this point. Trying to discourage wagons from forming feels like it could just be anti-town town play.

I’m having a hard time following because we seem to be talking in a circle. Mail-mi seems to be saying that scum can take advantage of wagons. Well,obvi.

But I’m not sure wagons are anti-town because of all the reasons that they provide good info.

The votes coming out of this discussion seem a bit meh to me, though. More odd attempted articulations of some not terribly important points, it seems to me. Similarly, I’m not finding hyper scummy for reading the set up carefully. I think as a relative newb, I read carefully so that I can make sure I understand what is going on and since I am even more unaccustomed to closed games, that kind of thing feels important to me. so, what he’s doing makes sense to me and reminding us all of the plurality seems pro-town.  I’d find it way more suspicious if he was one of the more experienced players.

Speaking of, more experienced players....where you at?

Yeah I always try to read the setup, especially in an RMM game (and especially especially in a Faust RMM game). So that's not a point for or against hypercube
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mail-mi on January 14, 2019, 09:53:23 am
Vote: hypercube
Why?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Robz888 on January 14, 2019, 01:48:47 pm
Vote: Jotheonah

This felt like pouncing on mail-mi for something that might very well be wrong but was not especially likely to come from scum. (Town needs no help tricking itself into mass claiming.)

When does scum ever actually do this? Scum doesn't need to pounce at this juncture. Scum just needs to wait for a good-looking town wagon and slide onboard.

Well, scum wants to look like they're.scumhunting.

vote: joth

vote: hypercube

This is exactly the position scum wants to be on the wagon. Voting for someone who already has votes, and turning a couple votes into an actual wagon

I know that didn't make much sense, I'm having a hard time putting my thoughts into words. I hope you (meaning the general populus)understands what I'm trying to say

What do people think of this post from mail-mi? Specifically, responding to a vote on himself by voting for the person who's voting for him?

To me it kind of reinforces my scumread, though I can't quite say why.

Like I actually don't think the point he's making is bad. But it's a really interesting way to respond to a vote on him and an immediate wagon on the person who voted for him.

I recall mail-mi as sort of a stream of consciousness voter.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mail-mi on January 14, 2019, 02:37:19 pm
^^what robz said. I say what I think
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: jotheonah on January 14, 2019, 02:54:59 pm
^^what robz said. I say what I think

I'm sure that, when you're town, you do. And I'm sure that, when you're scum, you pretend to. So we all have to ask ourselves, does mail-mi's stream of consciousness posting feel authentic and sincere?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mail-mi on January 14, 2019, 03:01:11 pm
^^what robz said. I say what I think

I'm sure that, when you're town, you do. And I'm sure that, when you're scum, you pretend to. So we all have to ask ourselves, does mail-mi's stream of consciousness posting feel authentic and sincere?
'Tis true, that is what you and the others should do. Also note that typically I like observing rather than commenting, which is a mold I've been trying to break out of for the 2 years I've been gone, but it's still there.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mail-mi on January 14, 2019, 03:02:23 pm
Looks like everyone has posted except ash, mcmc, and gala. Where y'all at?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mail-mi on January 14, 2019, 03:05:51 pm
Looks like everyone has posted except ash, mcmc, and gala. Where y'all at?
Galz, dang it autocorrupt
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on January 14, 2019, 03:08:30 pm
Looks like everyone has posted except ash, mcmc, and gala. Where y'all at?
Galz, dang it autocorrupt

But "Gala" is rather festive, don't you think?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mail-mi on January 14, 2019, 03:13:59 pm
Similarly, I’m not finding hyper scummy for reading the set up carefully. I think as a relative newb, I read carefully so that I can make sure I understand what is going on and since I am even more unaccustomed to closed games, that kind of thing feels important to me. so, what he’s doing makes sense to me and reminding us all of the plurality seems pro-town.  I’d find it way more suspicious if he was one of the more experienced players.

Reminding people about the setup is also something scum can easily do to get town points for reminding people about the set up. It's all just WIFOM, and I don't think in this case sways hypercube's scumminess either way.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Awaclus on January 14, 2019, 03:44:06 pm
Vote: hypercube
Why?

Is hypercube your scumbuddy?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mail-mi on January 14, 2019, 04:00:25 pm
Vote: hypercube
Why?

Is hypercube your scumbuddy?

Nope I'm just trying to create conversation. I know why I'm voting for him (the main reason is wagon placement as explained) but I'm wondering why e is voting for him
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Awaclus on January 14, 2019, 04:02:32 pm
Nope I'm just trying to create conversation. I know why I'm voting for him (the main reason is wagon placement as explained) but I'm wondering why e is voting for him

A better way to create conversation would be to explain why you aren't scum.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Glooble on January 14, 2019, 04:52:03 pm
Looks like everyone has posted except ash, mcmc, and gala. Where y'all at?


Galz posted some early on. I think I voted for her briefly.


Sidenote: I'm inclined to use she/her pronouns for everyone in light of the flavor but if you really don't want me to do that please let me know.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mail-mi on January 14, 2019, 06:17:51 pm
Nope I'm just trying to create conversation. I know why I'm voting for him (the main reason is wagon placement as explained) but I'm wondering why e is voting for him

A better way to create conversation would be to explain why you aren't scum.

ok

Actually, Vote: mail-mi

While it might sound like pronoun-omgus, I've just realised that I haven't been doing setup stuff at all, so characterizing me as having done so is weird. I've talked about the flavour, because it's something I like, and about timezones because it's something I'm generally conscious of as someone who's not on the American continent.

I haven't really begun posting my thoughts on how the game mechanics and real set-up stuff might go, because the stuff I've thought of doesn't really fit with a anything I'd see as a balanced game.

I explained this part, that when I was referencing SA doing "setup stuff," I was meaning that they were doing flavor talking and timezone talking and all that jazz. In a way, you could refer to what I was talking as "setup stuff" as "pregame stuff," like "okay, let's talk a little bit about flavor and then about timezones, and then we'll get into scumhunting and such."

note that I did townread SA for that, because that's something I think town!SA does.

vote: mail-mi

Mass claims on day one are always a bad idea.

it was only a suggestion, not something that I was planning on going through unless there was considerable consensus on the idea. There may be some town PR with a role that relies on flavor names, or something like that, that would benefit from a flavor claim. There may also be a scum role that does so. We don't know--that's why I asked.

What do people think of this post from mail-mi? Specifically, responding to a vote on himself by voting for the person who's voting for him?

To me it kind of reinforces my scumread, though I can't quite say why.

Like I actually don't think the point he's making is bad. But it's a really interesting way to respond to a vote on him and an immediate wagon on the person who voted for him.


i think it's an ok post by mail-mi


I also thought it was a strange reaction; I'm not sure what to think of mail-mi at this point. Trying to discourage wagons from forming feels like it could just be anti-town town play.

I'm not trying to discourage wagons (for example, I don't care if Joth gets more votes on him or not). I just felt that scum!hypercube saw the opportunity to slip onto a quickly forming wagon (on what in this case would be town!joth) without too much of a consequence. Well, now there's a consequence--there's a wagon on him now.

Well this has been enlightening. I have to go do work away from my computer, I'll check in at lunch if I have time, in the meantime,

vote:mail-mi


why?

Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mail-mi on January 14, 2019, 06:18:32 pm
tl;dr mail-mi is not scum.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mail-mi on January 14, 2019, 06:19:09 pm
Nope I'm just trying to create conversation. I know why I'm voting for him (the main reason is wagon placement as explained) but I'm wondering why e is voting for him

A better way to create conversation would be to explain why you aren't scum.

ok now it's your turn
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Awaclus on January 14, 2019, 06:19:55 pm
tl;dr mail-mi is not scum.

You only quoted other people. Other people's posts aren't evidence why you aren't scum.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Awaclus on January 14, 2019, 06:21:56 pm
Nope I'm just trying to create conversation. I know why I'm voting for him (the main reason is wagon placement as explained) but I'm wondering why e is voting for him

A better way to create conversation would be to explain why you aren't scum.

ok now it's your turn

It's still pretty early in the game and so the only really noteworthy things I have done was voting Galz and asking you to explain why you're town, both of which are pro-town things to do.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mail-mi on January 14, 2019, 06:25:07 pm
tl;dr mail-mi is not scum.

You only quoted other people. Other people's posts aren't evidence why you aren't scum.

False, I responded to the accusations others were making against me.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on January 14, 2019, 06:25:58 pm
it's even in my sig line to help people remember.

To be fair, the way you have it in your sig mostly just makes it look like you modded the Pronouns: they/them mafia.

Ah, well there's my theme for next time I want to run a game :-)
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Awaclus on January 14, 2019, 06:33:48 pm
False, I responded to the accusations others were making against me.

Which is useless because it doesn't do anything to prove that you aren't scum for reasons that nobody has accused you for.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mail-mi on January 14, 2019, 06:35:22 pm
False, I responded to the accusations others were making against me.

Which is useless because it doesn't do anything to prove that you aren't scum for reasons that nobody has accused you for.

well here's something. I've been adding to the conversation and creating some, when scum!me would be content with maintaining the meta of "oh he's just a lurker, we'll figure out if he's scum sooner or later".

better?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Awaclus on January 14, 2019, 06:37:43 pm
False, I responded to the accusations others were making against me.

Which is useless because it doesn't do anything to prove that you aren't scum for reasons that nobody has accused you for.

well here's something. I've been adding to the conversation and creating some, when scum!me would be content with maintaining the meta of "oh he's just a lurker, we'll figure out if he's scum sooner or later".

better?

Yeah, at least that's something.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on January 14, 2019, 06:40:38 pm
Busy day.. read a little from work but I try not to post from there except at lunch. Maybe I should collect up reactions to stuff in one tidy post now rather than spamming the thread with possible fluff.

Re the Mail-mi conversation, I see a big difference between useful logistics (like working out who knows the flavour and preempting and last-minute complaints about deadline timings) and actual set-up stuff. My usual "thing" is to get very into probabilities and analysis of configurations, which I just can't do here. Am I just being too particular about my definition?

I agree that massclaims aren't going to get us far on D1. I probably like D3 for that sort of thing, or maybe D4 depending on what info we get about how this game works from the flips. Not sure it's worth joth jumping on Mail-mi for the comment, though we have to find reasons to vote somewhere. Robz and e's reaction-votes seem totally fair.

On the actual topic of flavour that Mail-mi was trying to steer towards, I think it's highly likely that faust has made the game unbreakable for flavour claims. I'm sure there was a discussion somewhere around here quite recently about how to assign flavour names. Was it during the Dirk Gently game? I'd have to go and look, but other people almost certainly have better memories than me.

I agree with hyper's stance on wagons being good. They're excellent for PPE later in the game if townie people don't always sit in one spot the whole time, because there are certain patterns of votes that scums just don't feel comfortable with, and there's always the risk that bussing scums trying not to be obvious about who their partners are end up taking it too far. Recently, late-game me has gotten frustrated with early-game me for not making enough use of votes in D1 to help me later on with my analysis. I do often find D1 just really hard to get my teeth into, though, so don't expect me to do too well at this one all at once :-P
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Robz888 on January 14, 2019, 06:42:23 pm
I think continuing to focus on mail-mi so much--something Joth is doing--is somewhat scummy. I've often seen mail-mi make himself into an easy target in games past, perhaps especially when town.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on January 14, 2019, 06:43:20 pm
oh, and also vote: hypercube for reading the setup

What do you mean by this? Is this just an early random vote?

In my experience scum is more inclined to read the setup thoroughly to not accidentally show they have more information than other people

Is that really the case? I think certain people as scum are more likely to have a grasp of the complexities of a setup because while they're not players who might usually pore over the setup text thinking about interactions, if they have scumbuddies then they might pick things up in the scum QT that they wouldn't be expected to come up with alone. While I don't know hyper that well, I'm not sure I'd put him into the group of people who I wouldn't expect to read and think about it on their own. (My prototypical person I'm thinking of for that group is PPS!).
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Robz888 on January 14, 2019, 06:44:13 pm
Mafia often have a better grasp of the setup because they have more data points: two or three or four or whatever people with powers.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Robz888 on January 14, 2019, 06:44:27 pm
Apropos of nothing, mcmc has yet to post. Get in here, mcmc!
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mail-mi on January 14, 2019, 07:09:49 pm
Re the Mail-mi conversation, I see a big difference between useful logistics (like working out who knows the flavour and preempting and last-minute complaints about deadline timings) and actual set-up stuff. My usual "thing" is to get very into probabilities and analysis of configurations, which I just can't do here. Am I just being too particular about my definition?
eh, I think we can just agree to disagree, though I must thank you for saying the word "logistics" as that is the word i've been looking for this whole conversation.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on January 14, 2019, 09:13:07 pm
it's even in my sig line to help people remember.

To be fair, the way you have it in your sig mostly just makes it look like you modded the Pronouns: they/them mafia.

Ah, well there's my theme for next time I want to run a game :-)

Ohhhh.....With all kinds of cool gender politics! I’m in!

Mail-mi’s robust engagement with Awa is looking awfully town to me.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: jotheonah on January 14, 2019, 09:28:42 pm
I think continuing to focus on mail-mi so much--something Joth is doing--is somewhat scummy. I've often seen mail-mi make himself into an easy target in games past, perhaps especially when town.

I agree.

vote:Robz
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Glooble on January 14, 2019, 09:33:10 pm
Mail-mi’s defense did swap her over to a town read for me. But I don’t have a wagon I like better so I guess just unvote for now.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Awaclus on January 14, 2019, 09:40:25 pm
I think continuing to focus on mail-mi so much--something Joth is doing--is somewhat scummy. I've often seen mail-mi make himself into an easy target in games past, perhaps especially when town.

I agree.

vote:Robz

That vote doesn't count. In order for a vote to count, you have to do it with a space, like this: Vote: Robz
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: jotheonah on January 14, 2019, 09:44:54 pm
vote: robz

Also I should clarify, when I said “I agree” I meant I agree that mail-mi is seeming townie. Not that I was being scummy! I of course was and am being extremely pro-town.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mail-mi on January 14, 2019, 10:10:09 pm
What's up with the Robz votes?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Awaclus on January 14, 2019, 11:50:04 pm
What's up with the Robz votes?

What isn't up with the Robz votes?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mail-mi on January 15, 2019, 12:45:48 am
What's up with the Robz votes?

What isn't up with the Robz votes?

*sigh*
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Swowl on January 15, 2019, 01:06:51 am
Nope I'm just trying to create conversation. I know why I'm voting for him (the main reason is wagon placement as explained) but I'm wondering why e is voting for him

A better way to create conversation would be to explain why you aren't scum.

ok now it's your turn

It's still pretty early in the game and so the only really noteworthy things I have done was voting Galz and asking you to explain why you're town, both of which are pro-town things to do.

How do you know it is pro town to vote Galz?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Swowl on January 15, 2019, 01:14:52 am
Nope I'm just trying to create conversation. I know why I'm voting for him (the main reason is wagon placement as explained) but I'm wondering why e is voting for him

A better way to create conversation would be to explain why you aren't scum.

How is that possible at this point?

I wanna make it clear I am NOT white knighting Mal, but scrutinizing Awaclus.

It is Day 1, there is literally no information than the information that you know about yourself.
There haven't been any flips, claims, or even moderately large wagons.

How is one supposed to prove their town-i-ness at this point? What exactly are you expecting of them?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Swowl on January 15, 2019, 01:20:41 am
someone mentioned earlier in the game that "skum just wants to make it look like they are skum hunting for credit".

asking questions like these pretty much meet that criteria imo

Vote: Awaclus
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Awaclus on January 15, 2019, 01:54:42 am
How do you know it is pro town to vote Galz?

There was a small wagon on Galz and I made it one vote larger. That's always pro town. Are you implying that I scumslipped that Galz is my scumbuddy?

How is that possible at this point?

Are you even reading the thread? There have been two examples of this already, by mail-mi and me, respectively.

I wanna make it clear I am NOT white knighting Mal, but scrutinizing Awaclus.

It is Day 1, there is literally no information than the information that you know about yourself.
There haven't been any flips, claims, or even moderately large wagons.

How is one supposed to prove their town-i-ness at this point?

Well, I suppose it would be difficult to do unless you are actually town. Vote: DatSwan

someone mentioned earlier in the game that "skum just wants to make it look like they are skum hunting for credit".

asking questions like these pretty much meet that criteria imo

No it doesn't, this is significantly more useful than what you are doing.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: ashersky on January 15, 2019, 02:29:37 am
Apologies all, for the not posting until now thing.  Crazy busy + sort of forgot about the game.

Caught up, not a lot of content for 8 pages of posts.  Had the same scumread on mail-mi that everyone else had. Awaclus is reading as very Awaclusian. Robz is his normal D1 snore.

I do have a plan. It’s a secret, you’ll know it when I unveil it, don’t end D1 without letting me.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Awaclus on January 15, 2019, 02:35:58 am
I'm always up for an ashersky plan.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Swowl on January 15, 2019, 04:56:03 am
How do you know it is pro town to vote Galz?

There was a small wagon on Galz and I made it one vote larger. That's always pro town. Are you implying that I scumslipped that Galz is my scumbuddy?

How is that possible at this point?

Are you even reading the thread? There have been two examples of this already, by mail-mi and me, respectively.

I wanna make it clear I am NOT white knighting Mal, but scrutinizing Awaclus.

It is Day 1, there is literally no information than the information that you know about yourself.
There haven't been any flips, claims, or even moderately large wagons.

How is one supposed to prove their town-i-ness at this point?

Well, I suppose it would be difficult to do unless you are actually town. Vote: DatSwan

someone mentioned earlier in the game that "skum just wants to make it look like they are skum hunting for credit".

asking questions like these pretty much meet that criteria imo

No it doesn't, this is significantly more useful than what you are doing.

1) im implying that making a wagon one vote larger is not neccisarilly always pro town (especially if your meta as skum is to love the bus).

2) Reading just fine. I also do NOT think  that you, malmi, or anyone has done anything to come off as towny this far.

3) You didn’t answer my question - instead you avoided it with a random omg is Vote. Another pro town thing tho I’m sure...

4) the last time i had this conversation with you you self hammered yourself for the town loss... so I’m just gonna drop this topic.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: LaLight on January 15, 2019, 05:32:23 am
vote: joth
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Awaclus on January 15, 2019, 06:12:52 am
1) im implying that making a wagon one vote larger is not neccisarilly always pro town (especially if your meta as skum is to love the bus).

2) Reading just fine. I also do NOT think  that you, malmi, or anyone has done anything to come off as towny this far.

3) You didn’t answer my question - instead you avoided it with a random omg is Vote. Another pro town thing tho I’m sure...

4) the last time i had this conversation with you you self hammered yourself for the town loss... so I’m just gonna drop this topic.

1) Making a wagon one vote larger is necessarily always pro town, unless the vote leads to a town lynch.

2) It doesn't matter what you think, it matters what mail-mi thinks about himself and what I think about myself.

3) I didn't answer your question because that was the second time you asked the exact same question and I already answered it in item 2.

4) That self-hammer was way better than having town give away valuable information before ultimately lynching me anyway.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Swowl on January 15, 2019, 07:23:29 am
1) im implying that making a wagon one vote larger is not neccisarilly always pro town (especially if your meta as skum is to love the bus).

2) Reading just fine. I also do NOT think  that you, malmi, or anyone has done anything to come off as towny this far.

3) You didn’t answer my question - instead you avoided it with a random omg is Vote. Another pro town thing tho I’m sure...

4) the last time i had this conversation with you you self hammered yourself for the town loss... so I’m just gonna drop this topic.

1) Making a wagon one vote larger is necessarily always pro town, unless the vote leads to a town lynch.

2) It doesn't matter what you think, it matters what mail-mi thinks about himself and what I think about myself.

3) I didn't answer your question because that was the second time you asked the exact same question and I already answered it in item 2.

4) That self-hammer was way better than having town give away valuable information before ultimately lynching me anyway.

1) how do you know that wagon was not going to lead to a town lynch?

2) incorrect

3) fair enough

4) agree to to disagree.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Awaclus on January 15, 2019, 07:26:24 am
1) how do you know that wagon was not going to lead to a town lynch?

2) incorrect

1) Because we're not even close to the deadline yet.
2) No, it's correct.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: hypercube on January 15, 2019, 08:39:54 am
2) It doesn't matter what you think, it matters what mail-mi thinks about himself and what I think about myself.

I like this line of thought. Especially in light of this:

Also I should clarify, when I said “I agree” I meant I agree that mail-mi is seeming townie. Not that I was being scummy! I of course was and am being extremely pro-town.

You can claim to be extremely town (well, you're either town or you aren't, so the extreme value there is pretty simple to determine), but calling yourself extremely pro-town at this point rings like a bad joke.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mail-mi on January 15, 2019, 08:56:51 am
2) It doesn't matter what you think, it matters what mail-mi thinks about himself and what I think about myself.

I like this line of thought. Especially in light of this:

Also I should clarify, when I said “I agree” I meant I agree that mail-mi is seeming townie. Not that I was being scummy! I of course was and am being extremely pro-town.

You can claim to be extremely town (well, you're either town or you aren't, so the extreme value there is pretty simple to determine), but calling yourself extremely pro-town at this point rings like a bad joke.

I agree with what hypercube says about Joth here. That post doesn't ring right

Also unvote hypercube is seeming townier to me. What vote count is Joth at?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: jotheonah on January 15, 2019, 08:57:03 am
Nah, it was a good joke. I’m also very funny.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mail-mi on January 15, 2019, 09:06:39 am
Also I'm extremely busy today (rl day) so don't expect much from me
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: faust on January 15, 2019, 11:07:15 am
Vote Count 1.2

Robz888 (2): Galzria, jotheonah
mail-mi (1): SpaceAnemone
jotheonah (3): Robz888, hypercube, LaLight
hypercube (1): 2.71828.....
Awaclus (1): DatSwan
DatSwan (1): Awaclus

Not Voting (4): WestCoastDidds, mcmcsalot, ashersky, Glooble, mail-mi

With 14 alive, it takes 8 to lynch. Day 1 ends on January 20, 2019, 04:00:00 am.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mail-mi on January 15, 2019, 11:59:50 am
vote: joth
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Robz888 on January 15, 2019, 12:02:08 pm
Apologies all, for the not posting until now thing.  Crazy busy + sort of forgot about the game.

Caught up, not a lot of content for 8 pages of posts.  Had the same scumread on mail-mi that everyone else had. Awaclus is reading as very Awaclusian. Robz is his normal D1 snore.

I do have a plan. It’s a secret, you’ll know it when I unveil it, don’t end D1 without letting me.

My usual Day 1 snore?? Not fair, I'm really trying to impress with my new "Robz is good as town" lifestyle. I provided a few genuine reads that moved the game forward a bit, and everything! Rage Vote: Ashersky
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Glooble on January 15, 2019, 12:28:15 pm
At the risk of sounding scummy given that she is my sister irl, I don't get the wagon on joth right now. He's being sarcastic and flippant, but that's just his style. All of his observations seem genuine to me.

Day one is hard, there's so little concrete to go on. I'm eager to hear ashersky's secret plan to fight inflation (have we done West Wing Mafia yet? that could be fun.)

Anyway, this little fight between DatSwan and Awaclus doesn't look great for either of them, but DatSwan comes out of it looking a little more jumpy and defensive, which is often how I feel early on as scum, so for now, vote: DatSwan
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: 2.71828..... on January 15, 2019, 12:39:18 pm
The Datswan/Awaclus thing is totally null as far as town/scum reads for either of them.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: 2.71828..... on January 15, 2019, 12:44:38 pm
Hypercube is a much better D1 lynch here. Because amazing D1 case is why. That I can detail later. Like after dinner.

(Also just moved to Germany so I am now forum time+6)
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Glooble on January 15, 2019, 12:45:18 pm
I look forward to hearing your case after dinner. Because I admit I am grasping at straws right now.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: hypercube on January 15, 2019, 12:55:32 pm
The Datswan/Awaclus thing is totally null as far as town/scum reads for either of them.

It feels a bit manufactured I think. I am certain that Awaclus would go around asking people to argue why they're town regardless of his alignment. Maybe he would select who he asks that question to differently, but that's a different matter. Swan doesn't agree that this is productive, and uses that as an excuse to scumread Awaclus and start a big argument that I assume most people aren't paying too much attention to. I'm not sure that it means something, but I'm not sure that it means nothing either.

I am also interested in hearing this amazing case on me.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: jotheonah on January 15, 2019, 12:59:09 pm
unvote

Voting for Robz was kind of silly.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mail-mi on January 15, 2019, 01:01:07 pm
Hypercube is a much better D1 lynch here. Because amazing D1 case is why. That I can detail later. Like after dinner.

(Also just moved to Germany so I am now forum time+6)
Looking forward to it
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mcmcsalot on January 15, 2019, 02:09:00 pm
Will catch up by tonight sorry for my absence so far.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on January 15, 2019, 05:20:04 pm
The thing that strikes me about play so far is that there are so many unvotes. I feel like that's not normal. Why not just move your vote around if you decide you no longer like who you're voting for?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on January 15, 2019, 05:21:13 pm
At the risk of sounding scummy given that she is my sister irl, I don't get the wagon on joth right now. He's being sarcastic and flippant, but that's just his style. All of his observations seem genuine to me.

Her pronouns appear to be very fluid here :-P
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on January 15, 2019, 05:23:46 pm
I'm always up for an ashersky plan.

Does that mean you feel they're always pro-town? I feel like some of the ones I've observed have been of pretty questionable town utility.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on January 15, 2019, 05:26:26 pm
(Also just moved to Germany so I am now forum time+6)

Moved as in long-term? We should have another f.ds Mafia meet-up in Berlin!
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Galzria on January 15, 2019, 05:39:51 pm
About 50ish posts behind. Gotta get some work squared away, but should be caught up by tonight.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on January 15, 2019, 05:56:47 pm
Hi friends-

Apologies for the absence, first day of classes and all. I'm caught up now, and continue to be rather flummoxed. The Awa/Swan conversation is funny to me, but rather null in terms of alignment. The Joth wagon doesn't seem to be based on much, but maybe that's enough... I have zero firm sense of anything, but we're only about midway through the day so maybe that's okay.

Other than the folks who have been absent thus far, the least explanation of thinking seems to be e. So, we will all wait for after dinner and for folks to get caught up, or maybe for a Ashersky plan, or some more to think about than our current conversations, because like Glooble I feel like there is nothing real going on here that's illuminating.  Maybe we need new and improved Day 1 Robz to new and improve this day!

Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Awaclus on January 15, 2019, 06:05:45 pm
Does that mean you feel they're always pro-town? I feel like some of the ones I've observed have been of pretty questionable town utility.

Well, I don't think they're always pro-town, but they're pro-town pretty often especially because ashersky tries to make them that way even when he's scum.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Glooble on January 15, 2019, 06:10:35 pm
The thing that strikes me about play so far is that there are so many unvotes. I feel like that's not normal. Why not just move your vote around if you decide you no longer like who you're voting for?

I vote for people if they seem scummy, and then if they seem less scummy but there’s no one else who seems especially scummy I just unvote. That’s mostly only true on Day 1 though.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Swowl on January 15, 2019, 10:06:31 pm
At the risk of sounding scummy given that she is my sister irl, I don't get the wagon on joth right now. He's being sarcastic and flippant, but that's just his style. All of his observations seem genuine to me.

Day one is hard, there's so little concrete to go on. I'm eager to hear ashersky's secret plan to fight inflation (have we done West Wing Mafia yet? that could be fun.)

Anyway, this little fight between DatSwan and Awaclus doesn't look great for either of them, but DatSwan comes out of it looking a little more jumpy and defensive, which is often how I feel early on as scum, so for now, vote: DatSwan

I was the one pointing fingers in this - how does that come off as defensicve?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: jotheonah on January 15, 2019, 10:09:06 pm
The thing that strikes me about play so far is that there are so many unvotes. I feel like that's not normal.

I voted for Robz because I really didn't like his vote on me, honestly. Not like in an OMGUS way, but in a "there's no way Robz actually believes that scum!me would vote mail-mi the way I did, he knows me too well." But then I reread and thought about and I realized it was kind of silly. Because I've been away so long. And Robz is striking me as generally towny here. So I unvoted.

Why not just move your vote around if you decide you no longer like who you're voting for?

...Because I don't have any scumreads?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Swowl on January 16, 2019, 12:57:15 am
I am going the crew of just re read again and really struggling to find jumping off points...

Love to hear the E! case or the Ashes plan plzzz
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: 2.71828..... on January 16, 2019, 03:07:29 am
The hypercube case:

1) he had the whole "I read the setup and noticed a hated/loved mechanic of some sort likely exists" post

2) then has the "if I were scum I wouldn't have pointed it out" post

3) the other wagons are all bad

And there you have it. Best of the best for D1 cases
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: hypercube on January 16, 2019, 05:03:31 am
The hypercube case:

1) he had the whole "I read the setup and noticed a hated/loved mechanic of some sort likely exists" post

2) then has the "if I were scum I wouldn't have pointed it out" post

3) the other wagons are all bad

And there you have it. Best of the best for D1 cases

Aw, I was hoping you had something creative. Town points for not overreaching, I guess.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on January 16, 2019, 05:27:54 am
So, we will all wait for after dinner and for folks to get caught up, or maybe for a Ashersky plan

So.. is it pro-town just to wait for Ash's plan? Are you even aware of the kinds of things these Ashersky-plans of his tend to involve?

Characteristic one: he announces to the thread that he has a plan, but then waits ages to post it, building expectation. In games like this, it has a very real risk of stalling all the genuine worthwhile conversation in the thread because too many people buy into the cult of the Ashersky plan and don't want to put their own effort in when they hope someone else is going to come along and do it for them.

I think it's not very pro-town of him to do the hint-and-run routine in the first place, but it's certainly not pro-town for the rest of us to let multiple comments along the lines of "let's wait for Ashersky's plan" go by and not have at least a little rant about it ;-)

(I was going to go into more characteristics of the plans, but I'm at work, and now my breakfast-coffee is over, I need to get back to analysis of real data!)
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: 2.71828..... on January 16, 2019, 05:31:38 am
Ashersky explicitly stated he wouldn't reveal his plan until very late D1.

1) there is absolutely no reason to wait for a plan
2) people who state they are waiting for said plan are attempting to be artificially townie, and thus are scummy
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: 2.71828..... on January 16, 2019, 05:33:14 am
re you even aware of the kinds of things these Ashersky-plans of his tend to involve?

They tend to involve scum losing, even if he himself is scum. (See villager mafia)
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: hypercube on January 16, 2019, 05:37:16 am
2) people who state they are waiting for said plan are attempting to be artificially townie, and thus are scummy

I can buy into this. vote: Glooble
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Glooble on January 16, 2019, 06:36:04 am
2) people who state they are waiting for said plan are attempting to be artificially townie, and thus are scummy

I can buy into this. vote: Glooble

All I said was “I’m eager to hear this plan”. Nothing about waiting for it. I then proceeded to make an unrelated vote in the same post.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: 2.71828..... on January 16, 2019, 06:37:54 am
(Also just moved to Germany so I am now forum time+6)

Moved as in long-term? We should have another f.ds Mafia meet-up in Berlin!

Moved as in for the next 3 years. So somewhat long term
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: 2.71828..... on January 16, 2019, 06:41:55 am
2) people who state they are waiting for said plan are attempting to be artificially townie, and thus are scummy

I can buy into this. vote: Glooble

All I said was “I’m eager to hear this plan”. Nothing about waiting for it. I then proceeded to make an unrelated vote in the same post.

Yeah, add hypercube's non sequitur vote on Glooble to the reasons they are scum
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Glooble on January 16, 2019, 06:47:02 am
Ashersky explicitly stated he wouldn't reveal his plan until very late D1.

1) there is absolutely no reason to wait for a plan
2) people who state they are waiting for said plan are attempting to be artificially townie, and thus are scummy

Agreed.

vote:ashersky
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Glooble on January 16, 2019, 06:47:52 am
Err, forgot the space. vote: ashersky
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: hypercube on January 16, 2019, 06:48:30 am
2) people who state they are waiting for said plan are attempting to be artificially townie, and thus are scummy

I can buy into this. vote: Glooble

All I said was “I’m eager to hear this plan”. Nothing about waiting for it. I then proceeded to make an unrelated vote in the same post.

You didn't seem very convinced in your Swan vote, surrounding it with equivocation about how there's too little to go on etc.. I don't think scum would actually just sit there and refuse to do anything until Ash comes up with a plan. I've been scumreading Glooble for a little while now; she seems to be playing a very conservative game, being around without actually moving things along too much.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: LaLight on January 16, 2019, 06:54:58 am
I like vote: Glooble
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on January 16, 2019, 07:33:16 am
So, we will all wait for after dinner and for folks to get caught up, or maybe for a Ashersky plan

So.. is it pro-town just to wait for Ash's plan? Are you even aware of the kinds of things these Ashersky-plans of his tend to involve?

Characteristic one: he announces to the thread that he has a plan, but then waits ages to post it, building expectation. In games like this, it has a very real risk of stalling all the genuine worthwhile conversation in the thread because too many people buy into the cult of the Ashersky plan and don't want to put their own effort in when they hope someone else is going to come along and do it for them.

I think it's not very pro-town of him to do the hint-and-run routine in the first place, but it's certainly not pro-town for the rest of us to let multiple comments along the lines of "let's wait for Ashersky's plan" go by and not have at least a little rant about it ;-)

(I was going to go into more characteristics of the plans, but I'm at work, and now my breakfast-coffee is over, I need to get back to analysis of real data!)

Ah, thanks for the background. I wasn't arguing that we wait for the plan...especially since I can't see how there is any utility in a "plan" at this point with all the unknowns and so few knowns. I was really more trying to summarize the line of comments in the thread that were about catching up, checking in, reading, and getting back to it after dinner-- which I found amusing because it reminded me of being a kid and getting to play outside until the streetlights came on.

I appreciate that mail-mi, hyper, and glooble are so active. Of them, vote: glooble seems the most productive current course of action.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Glooble on January 16, 2019, 07:38:30 am
This wagon is me pretty obviously being pushed by hypercube to derail the wagon on her.

vote: hypercube

I was already leaning that direction anyway and now it’s looking like classic misdirection.

Still suspicious of ashersky though.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: hypercube on January 16, 2019, 07:49:17 am
This wagon is me pretty obviously being pushed by hypercube to derail the wagon on her.

vote: hypercube

I was already leaning that direction anyway and now it’s looking like classic misdirection.

Still suspicious of ashersky though.

At the time I voted for you, E was the only person voting for me; there's nothing to derail there. It seems like you might be a bit afraid of people voting for you though!
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: LaLight on January 16, 2019, 07:52:52 am
This wagon is me pretty obviously being pushed by hypercube to derail the wagon on her.

vote: hypercube

I was already leaning that direction anyway and now it’s looking like classic misdirection.

Still suspicious of ashersky though.

How are you suspicious of ashersky? Why?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: jotheonah on January 16, 2019, 08:25:33 am
Ashersky explicitly stated he wouldn't reveal his plan until very late D1.

1) there is absolutely no reason to wait for a plan
2) people who state they are waiting for said plan are attempting to be artificially townie, and thus are scummy

Agreed.

vote:ashersky

Please explain this post.

Cards on the table: Personally, I would rather not D1 lynch you after talking you into playing so we could have enough players to launch the game. But, in-game, I am finding you quite scummy.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Glooble on January 16, 2019, 08:26:16 am
Because of e’s point. Saying you have a plan but you won’t reveal it u til the end of the day seems like a good way to slow down scumhunting.

I am afraid of people voting for me for very pro-town reasons which will become clear if the wagon on me reaches that point.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: 2.71828..... on January 16, 2019, 08:26:29 am
This wagon is me pretty obviously being pushed by hypercube to derail the wagon on her.

vote: hypercube

I was already leaning that direction anyway and now it’s looking like classic misdirection.

Still suspicious of ashersky though.

How are you suspicious of ashersky? Why?

Ashersky is an easy person to be suspicious of. He posts about this Grand Scheme and then not much else. Seems fairly suspicious if you aren't accustomed to ashersky play style.

Town points for Glooble
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: jotheonah on January 16, 2019, 08:34:16 am
I am afraid of people voting for me for very pro-town reasons which will become clear if the wagon on me reaches that point.

There's some lexical ambiguity here. Are you saying you are afraid for reasons which will become clear or people are voting for you for reasons that will become clear?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Glooble on January 16, 2019, 08:34:50 am
The former.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: ashersky on January 16, 2019, 08:37:07 am
Ashersky explicitly stated he wouldn't reveal his plan until very late D1.

1) there is absolutely no reason to wait for a plan
2) people who state they are waiting for said plan are attempting to be artificially townie, and thus are scummy

This is correct. 2.7’s post before this one was scummy, but this is normal 2.7.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: ashersky on January 16, 2019, 08:39:27 am
I am afraid of people voting for me for very pro-town reasons which will become clear if the wagon on me reaches that point.

There's some lexical ambiguity here. Are you saying you are afraid for reasons which will become clear or people are voting for you for reasons that will become clear?

It’s also a very nothing statement, especially in RMM. I mean, voting for a town PR is bad, so we can all say the same thing. Seems like an empty chaff discharge to me.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: ashersky on January 16, 2019, 08:42:43 am
The hypercube case:

1) he had the whole "I read the setup and noticed a hated/loved mechanic of some sort likely exists" post

2) then has the "if I were scum I wouldn't have pointed it out" post

3) the other wagons are all bad

And there you have it. Best of the best for D1 cases

I didn’t like something here. Not sure what.

Contents-wise, point 2 could be a thing. Depends on how noobish said player is, if scum discussed N0, and if scum has a player that is affected.  Especially with the last possibility, pointing it out via voting rule gets you town points plus protects scum who would be affected.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: jotheonah on January 16, 2019, 08:45:27 am
I am afraid of people voting for me for very pro-town reasons which will become clear if the wagon on me reaches that point.

There's some lexical ambiguity here. Are you saying you are afraid for reasons which will become clear or people are voting for you for reasons that will become clear?

It’s also a very nothing statement, especially in RMM. I mean, voting for a town PR is bad, so we can all say the same thing. Seems like an empty chaff discharge to me.

On that topic, we should talk about claims. I'm not sure it makes sense to autoclaim at R1 when everyone has a power role. I think maybe you should only claim if you think your role is exceptionally powerful? But it's also not really clear to me that the power level of roles is even knowable without more context. I certainly have no idea if mine is powerful or not.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: ashersky on January 16, 2019, 08:47:52 am
Also, for the record, hating on ashersky plans is just a hipster contrarianism thing to do. As Awaclus points out subconsciously, the efficacy of ashersky plans notwithstanding, the airing of, discussion of, and sometimes demolishing of ashersky plans is always pro-town. And generally they are pro-town regardless of my own alignment.

If you want to complain about ashersky plans, the correct way is to say it has zero bearing on my alignment so I deserve no town points for them. Unfortunately, I often do get scum points if I don’t have one, so partly this is all your fault.

Separate to this, using waiting for the plan as an excuse to not otherwise engage is not an acceptable action.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: ashersky on January 16, 2019, 08:49:23 am
I am afraid of people voting for me for very pro-town reasons which will become clear if the wagon on me reaches that point.

There's some lexical ambiguity here. Are you saying you are afraid for reasons which will become clear or people are voting for you for reasons that will become clear?

It’s also a very nothing statement, especially in RMM. I mean, voting for a town PR is bad, so we can all say the same thing. Seems like an empty chaff discharge to me.

On that topic, we should talk about claims. I'm not sure it makes sense to autoclaim at R1 when everyone has a power role. I think maybe you should only claim if you think your role is exceptionally powerful? But it's also not really clear to me that the power level of roles is even knowable without more context. I certainly have no idea if mine is powerful or not.

Stock answer: Leave it up to individual players.

Better answer: generally the choice between being lynched and outing your power is an easy one to make.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Glooble on January 16, 2019, 08:52:23 am
Ashersky: can you tell us why you can't reveal your plan until late day one without revealing your plan?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Glooble on January 16, 2019, 08:53:38 am
I wasn't really aware of the meta re:ashersky plans, having been out of the loop for several years. In a vacuum, teasing a plan seemed scummy. I see now that I was missing important context.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mail-mi on January 16, 2019, 09:03:04 am
I like e's hypercube case, definitely willing to go back to her if that's what ends up happening. Still like my joth vote rn
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: hypercube on January 16, 2019, 09:38:45 am
The hypercube case:

1) he had the whole "I read the setup and noticed a hated/loved mechanic of some sort likely exists" post

2) then has the "if I were scum I wouldn't have pointed it out" post

3) the other wagons are all bad

And there you have it. Best of the best for D1 cases

I didn’t like something here. Not sure what.

Contents-wise, point 2 could be a thing. Depends on how noobish said player is, if scum discussed N0, and if scum has a player that is affected.  Especially with the last possibility, pointing it out via voting rule gets you town points plus protects scum who would be affected.

Well, I have enough experience to know that I wouldn't get town points for pointing out setup stuff. This came up in the last game I played; it seems the consensus is that pointing out setup stuff is null to scummy. However, in this case I thought it was pro-town to call attention to that information, so I did it. I don't expect anyone to town-read me for that, but that was my thought process.

If anyone has knowledge of whether scum has any players with voting modifiers or not, please feel free to speak up!
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: jotheonah on January 16, 2019, 10:40:33 am
Unofficial vote count

Robz888 (1): Galzria
mail-mi (1): SpaceAnemone
jotheonah (1): mail-mi
hypercube (2): 2.71828....., Glooble
Awaclus (1): DatSwan
DatSwan (1): Awaclus
ashersky (1): Robz888
Glooble (3): hypercube, LaLight, WestCoastDidds

Not Voting (3): mcmcsalot, ashersky, jotheonah
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Glooble on January 16, 2019, 10:59:33 am

On that topic, we should talk about claims. I'm not sure it makes sense to autoclaim at R1 when everyone has a power role. I think maybe you should only claim if you think your role is exceptionally powerful? But it's also not really clear to me that the power level of roles is even knowable without more context. I certainly have no idea if mine is powerful or not.


The assumption here is that all of the power roles are positive. We have no evidence of this.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Robz888 on January 16, 2019, 11:50:05 am
E's case on hypercube is okay.

Vote: hypercube

I hate the wagon on Glooble, shame on all of you. For one thing, I just don't like to lynch new and returning players Day 1 unless there's a good reason (sends the wrong message!). But anyway it makes perfect sense for Glooble, who doesn't know ash plans are a typical thing, to really focus on this, as any alignment.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mail-mi on January 16, 2019, 03:56:12 pm
Looks like joth isnt happening right now so I'll go back to vote: hypercube
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on January 16, 2019, 06:13:08 pm
I hate the wagon on Glooble, shame on all of you. For one thing, I just don't like to lynch new and returning players Day 1 unless there's a good reason (sends the wrong message!). But anyway it makes perfect sense for Glooble, who doesn't know ash plans are a typical thing, to really focus on this, as any alignment.

Alright, that’s fair.

vote: mcmc because one post in 3+ days seems out of character
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on January 16, 2019, 06:52:34 pm
I hate the wagon on Glooble, shame on all of you. For one thing, I just don't like to lynch new and returning players Day 1 unless there's a good reason (sends the wrong message!). But anyway it makes perfect sense for Glooble, who doesn't know ash plans are a typical thing, to really focus on this, as any alignment.

Alright, that’s fair.

vote: mcmc because one post in 3+ days seems out of character

Were all the votes on Glooble just because of his attitude to Ash's plan, though? Yours wasn't very well-explained, and just singled him out as the most productive place your vote could be, which isn't very enlightening for the rest of us. hyper's vote is the one that appeared to be explicitly because Glooble was promoting stalling while waiting for Ash. LL's was totally unexplained. So I'm not sure quite what your "that's fair" comment is agreeing with in Robz's statement.

I also don't feel the hyper wagon, because I approve of setup-reading, and think it's something an analytical player is quite likely to do. Am I right in remembering that hyper leans that sort of way?

I think a pressure vote on mcmc isn't a terrible thing right now. Vote: mcmc
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: jotheonah on January 16, 2019, 07:46:35 pm
there's actually a couple of things about Glooble that I don't love. This post was a little much:

This wagon is me pretty obviously being pushed by hypercube to derail the wagon on her.

vote: hypercube

I was already leaning that direction anyway and now it’s looking like classic misdirection.

Still suspicious of ashersky though.

It just .... feels inauthentic. It feels like scared scum. But then, what do we make of this post less than 24 hours earlier?

At the risk of sounding scummy given that she is my sister irl, I don't get the wagon on joth right now. He's being sarcastic and flippant, but that's just his style. All of his observations seem genuine to me.

Day one is hard, there's so little concrete to go on. I'm eager to hear ashersky's secret plan to fight inflation (have we done West Wing Mafia yet? that could be fun.)

Anyway, this little fight between DatSwan and Awaclus doesn't look great for either of them, but DatSwan comes out of it looking a little more jumpy and defensive, which is often how I feel early on as scum, so for now, vote: DatSwan

I think town!Glooble pointing to something as a scum tell and then shortly thereafter doing that thing is a lot more likely than scum!Glooble doing that. But if it's inadvertent, as scum jumpy defensiveness often is, then maybe.

I think jumpy defensiveness is one of the best scum tells especially in new or out of practice players. But it definitely does give off false negatives.

Anyway, I don't want to vote Glooble today. I agree with RObz on giving her a day 1 pass for meta reasons. But consider this a big ol' FoS.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: jotheonah on January 16, 2019, 07:47:49 pm
I can also see Glooble being acutely aware of how jumpy and defensive it can feel to be scum early in the day precisely because she's currently experiencing it, and then posting that and feeling very clever about it.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: faust on January 17, 2019, 12:59:47 am
Vote Count 1.3

Robz888 (1): Galzria
hypercube (4): 2.71828....., Glooble, Robz888, mail-mi
Awaclus (1): DatSwan
DatSwan (1): Awaclus
Glooble (2): hypercube, LaLight
mcmcsalot (2): WestCoastDidds, SpaceAnemone

Not Voting (3): mcmcsalot, ashersky, jotheonah

With 14 alive, it takes 8 to lynch. Day 1 ends on January 20, 2019, 04:00:00 am.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Swowl on January 17, 2019, 02:32:36 am
Ashersky explicitly stated he wouldn't reveal his plan until very late D1.

1) there is absolutely no reason to wait for a plan
2) people who state they are waiting for said plan are attempting to be artificially townie, and thus are scummy

Agreed.

vote:ashersky

Please explain this post.

Cards on the table: Personally, I would rather not D1 lynch you after talking you into playing so we could have enough players to launch the game. But, in-game, I am finding you quite scummy.

I am not asking for anything to come of this - just a polite "hey buddy". Probably not OK to say things like this - from my understanding we are supposed to remove IRL among "twins" completely from the thread.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Swowl on January 17, 2019, 02:44:32 am
Also, for the record, hating on ashersky plans is just a hipster contrarianism thing to do. As Awaclus points out subconsciously, the efficacy of ashersky plans notwithstanding, the airing of, discussion of, and sometimes demolishing of ashersky plans is always pro-town. And generally they are pro-town regardless of my own alignment.

If you want to complain about ashersky plans, the correct way is to say it has zero bearing on my alignment so I deserve no town points for them. Unfortunately, I often do get scum points if I don’t have one, so partly this is all your fault.

Separate to this, using waiting for the plan as an excuse to not otherwise engage is not an acceptable action.

One could argue if your plans are generally Pro-Town regardless of alignment, then it is skummy to make town wait to hear said plan.

Just saying - you know a plan is going to have an effect on the skum hunting (inevitable and NAI)... but withholding it after stating it exists doesn't really make sense. It is still going to have the unwanted effect of dialing back skum hunting, while simultaneously lessening the amount of time we all have to discuss the plan prior to the day ending.

In the few games I have played with you, I def give you the credit for being a crafty minx and all, but this doesn't really make a ton of sense.
And then back that up with the girl (doing Gooble's thing) bringing it up in the first place, followed by being the one accusing people of stalling... kind of reeks of skum sauce.


Vote: Ashes

Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Swowl on January 17, 2019, 02:47:08 am
Australia for 2 more days btw - will be more active after I am home.

Skum points to Robz and Joth. We are playing this game, right now. You should not factor in how long it has been since a player has played (in the sense of removing them as a lynch). If you care more about the success of the forum than the quality of the game MOD them instead and don't play.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Swowl on January 17, 2019, 02:49:24 am
Australia for 2 more days btw - will be more active after I am home.

Skum points to Robz and Joth. We are playing this game, right now. You should not factor in how long it has been since a player has played (in the sense of removing them as a lynch). If you care more about the success of the forum than the quality of the game MOD them instead and don't play.

This came off insanely sharp - sorry. I stand by my point, but didn’t mean it to sound the way it did in the original context.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: ashersky on January 17, 2019, 05:02:17 am
I think town points for DatSwan making such a terrible decision but backing it up with Swiss cheese reasoning. Not sound scum play. Day 1 town read.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Awaclus on January 17, 2019, 05:15:20 am
One could argue if your plans are generally Pro-Town regardless of alignment, then it is skummy to make town wait to hear said plan.

No it isn't if letting scum hear the plan isn't part of the plan.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: hypercube on January 17, 2019, 06:49:01 am
I agree with Joth's points regarding Glooble; I don't like the way she's been handling pressure at all. I really do think this comment could be something that nervous scum would say, especially since I think Swan was clearly being agressive rather than defensive there:

DatSwan comes out of it looking a little more jumpy and defensive, which is often how I feel early on as scum, so for now, vote: DatSwan

Anyways if people don't want to vote for Glooble for meta reasons that's their prerogative I suppose, but I hope they're not using that as an excuse to not scrutinize her.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Glooble on January 17, 2019, 07:47:47 am
I admit I have been jumpy and defensive since I started getting votes on me, and I know that doesn’t look good. I’m pretty sure it’s  because 1. I’m just an anxious person, and 2. I was given a very strange role and I’m still figuring out its implications for my playstyle.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: jotheonah on January 17, 2019, 07:47:59 am
Swan: I think “not wanting to lynch x” and “not wanting to lynch x D1” are very different prospects. I don’t think the occasional day 1 pass compromises the integrity of the game. It’s similar (in terms of the affect on the game) to holding off on a d1 lynch of a very scummy player who claimed a PR. You can always lynch them the next day.

Anyway, vote: ashersky. Swan’s making sense here and ash’s response really rubbed me the wrong way.

PS: i’ll hammer Glooble if it comes to it, fwiw.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: LaLight on January 17, 2019, 07:49:24 am
I think I would like to return to vote: joth

I don't want to lynch ash just yet and even get him to L-1. joth looks scummyish to me. As is Glooble still
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Robz888 on January 17, 2019, 08:57:53 am
Australia for 2 more days btw - will be more active after I am home.

Skum points to Robz and Joth. We are playing this game, right now. You should not factor in how long it has been since a player has played (in the sense of removing them as a lynch). If you care more about the success of the forum than the quality of the game MOD them instead and don't play.

If I had a strong scum read I would consider lynching the player, but I'm just recognizing that all things being equal I have no clue and am usually wrong. On Day 1 there's so many players, you have to whittle down your list somehow, so crossing people off for semi arbitrary reasons is not all the objectionable in my opinion.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: jotheonah on January 17, 2019, 09:13:10 am
I think I would like to return to vote: joth

I don't want to lynch ash just yet and even get him to L-1. joth looks scummyish to me. As is Glooble still

Ashersky is 5 votes away from L1 so I think we’re ok.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: 2.71828..... on January 17, 2019, 09:59:44 am
Why is Glooble scummy? Reactions all read town to me.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: 2.71828..... on January 17, 2019, 10:01:14 am
With 14 alive, it takes 8 to lynch. Day 1 ends on January 20, 2019, 04:00:00 am.

Also, weekend deadline that is swiftly approaching.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: 2.71828..... on January 17, 2019, 10:01:55 am
Although there is plurality lynch I suppose
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: jotheonah on January 17, 2019, 10:40:25 am
Why is Glooble scummy? Reactions all read town to me.

I think cube and I have made the case as clearly as we know how.

Deadline plurality lynch is bad for us I think because it's (A) easy for scum to manipulate and (B) doesn't allow time for claiming (or rather, for reacting to a claim).

Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: hypercube on January 17, 2019, 10:46:09 am
I'm not really interested in an Ash lynch. I don't think delaying the release of a plan until late in the Day is scummy, both since it could give scum less time to react and because it means we can at least attempt to have some interactions that aren't dominated by discussion of the plan beforehand.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on January 17, 2019, 10:46:24 am
I hate the wagon on Glooble, shame on all of you. For one thing, I just don't like to lynch new and returning players Day 1 unless there's a good reason (sends the wrong message!). But anyway it makes perfect sense for Glooble, who doesn't know ash plans are a typical thing, to really focus on this, as any alignment.

Alright, that’s fair.

vote: mcmc because one post in 3+ days seems out of character

Were all the votes on Glooble just because of his attitude to Ash's plan, though? Yours wasn't very well-explained, and just singled him out as the most productive place your vote could be, which isn't very enlightening for the rest of us. hyper's vote is the one that appeared to be explicitly because Glooble was promoting stalling while waiting for Ash. LL's was totally unexplained. So I'm not sure quite what your "that's fair" comment is agreeing with in Robz's statement.

I also don't feel the hyper wagon, because I approve of setup-reading, and think it's something an analytical player is quite likely to do. Am I right in remembering that hyper leans that sort of way?

I think a pressure vote on mcmc isn't a terrible thing right now. Vote: mcmc

Sorry, Space, I was in a hurry and not terribly inspired, but didn't want to keep not having a vote anywhere.  You are correct that it was not very helpful.

I voted for Glooble because in the Mail-mi, Hyper, Joth, Glooble conversations he was coming off to me as the most defensive. The plan or not thing wasn't terribly interesting, although I agree with DatSwan that announcing a plan but not presenting one is a rather distracting move and in light of how much time we spent talking about it for naught, that seems right. So, Asher isn't looking so good in my book even if she always does this. (As you correctly point out, I don't have a lot of experience with her)

As for why I changed my vote from Robz's comment, I had sympathy for the we shouldn't recruit players to return and then lynch them for their trouble right out of the gate. Although in fairness, the vote was more for seeing how he responds to pressure than it was about a lynch. (The answer to that is that I find him defensive, but not flailing.)

I am still of the opinion that Mcmc is skeevy for just not playing at all. And if she's not scum, I am quite certain that at the very least, she will not be missed.

Oh yeah....the 4 am (3 am for me) Saturday deadline. I am most definitely not around at that time. So, perhaps we think of Friday as the deadline for practical purposes. Or, I will at least.

DatSwan, how has Australia been? When will you get on the monster flight home and be out of commission for many hours?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Glooble on January 17, 2019, 11:02:22 am
My problem with the mcmc lynch is that lynching a lurker tells us nothing. If she's scum that's fine, but if she's town, we have no wagons to analyze or anything like that. We are essentially back at day one (aside from night actions of course.)

But if she doesn't show up and start participating, I suppose I'll support that wagon.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mail-mi on January 17, 2019, 11:03:16 am
Ashersky is being ashersky, I'm completely null on her right now

Still liking hypercube, maybe glooble (also very willing to give day 1 pass) and would definitely go for mcmc, if only for lurking. Also willing to go back to joth.

I'm still super busy with homework and stuff, we'll see if I can pull together a reads post sometime soon.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Glooble on January 17, 2019, 11:07:53 am
Also I echo the need for a soft deadline of some sort. I will certainly be asleep when the real deadline hits.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mail-mi on January 17, 2019, 11:10:10 am
I should be around until at least an hour or two before deadline, would be willing to hammer almost anyone if necessary.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: hypercube on January 17, 2019, 11:15:19 am
request prods on mcmc, Galz
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Glooble on January 17, 2019, 11:16:49 am
I should be around until at least an hour or two before deadline, would be willing to hammer almost anyone if necessary.

I guess if we get to that point and it looks like I'm the lynch I'll say my piece before I go to bed. Only thing is if my piece convinces ya'll not to lynch me we might end up in a bind.

Ditto for just about anyone we might choose.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: hypercube on January 17, 2019, 11:19:18 am
I'll be around for at least 30 mins or so before the deadline.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: hypercube on January 17, 2019, 11:21:51 am
In any case we still have tomorrow before the people who only post during work hours disappear. I'm not going to start moving my vote to somewhere I'm not happy with it right now.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on January 17, 2019, 01:35:08 pm
I think a pressure vote on mcmc isn't a terrible thing right now. Vote: mcmc

Sorry, Space, I was in a hurry and not terribly inspired, but didn't want to keep not having a vote anywhere.  You are correct that it was not very helpful.

Did you misread me there? I think the pressure vote is not a terrible thing, meaning I think it's reasonable.That's why I joined you on the wagon :-)
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on January 17, 2019, 01:39:42 pm
Oh yeah....the 4 am (3 am for me) Saturday deadline. I am most definitely not around at that time. So, perhaps we think of Friday as the deadline for practical purposes. Or, I will at least.

The deadline is 4am Forum Time on the 20th, which is Sunday morning. I can see that with participation dropping at weekends, it might be handy to have an imaginary deadline on Friday night, but your text appears to be presenting the actual deadline as being overnight Friday-to-Saturday, but it's essentially late Saturday night for most people.

This is not to say that we shouldn't pick up the pace... just that nobody should use the shortness of time till deadline as an excuse for bad rushed play if there's actually 24 hours more than you think...
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on January 17, 2019, 01:46:18 pm
My problem with the mcmc lynch is that lynching a lurker tells us nothing. If she's scum that's fine, but if she's town, we have no wagons to analyze or anything like that.

I strongly disagree with this.

Firstly, it probably tells us something about what other roles are out there. This is more useful for town than for scum, because right now we (probably?) each only have one datapoint to go on to build up a framework of how the game works, and a second point is a 100% improvement. Less so for scum, because they probably already know each other's roles too.

Secondly, we already have wagons to look at, and flips on later days will let us look at people who're voting together or avoiding being on the same wagons. The only downside is that mcmc hasn't voted at all, which is just really bad town play from him. That hinders voting analysis whether or not we flip him now.

Thirdly, if mcmc is lurking this badly, we remove him from the game and leave more active players who give us better wagon analysis, more interactions and more gameplay. Scum isn't going to take him out for us if he's leaving himself as a big unknown, and he's really not a player town wants alive at lylo if he's not someone we can form opinions of... so if we don't have strong scumreads on active players, then mcmc is a great place for a good towny vote to go.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on January 17, 2019, 01:59:08 pm
Oh! 4 am Sunday! Good catch. Still super early/late in the day, but not as early in the weekend.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on January 17, 2019, 02:00:27 pm
Space's explanation of the value of Mcmc lynch is Super Town
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: hypercube on January 17, 2019, 02:06:58 pm
Space's explanation of the value of Mcmc lynch is Super Town

I agree that it makes a lot of sense. I wasn't convinced of the utility before, but now I'm going to vote: mcmc since it seems like the Glooble wagon isn't getting there today.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: jotheonah on January 17, 2019, 02:36:33 pm
How often does LAL actually hit scum though?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mail-mi on January 17, 2019, 03:32:59 pm
My problem with the mcmc lynch is that lynching a lurker tells us nothing. If she's scum that's fine, but if she's town, we have no wagons to analyze or anything like that.

I strongly disagree with this.

Firstly, it probably tells us something about what other roles are out there. This is more useful for town than for scum, because right now we (probably?) each only have one datapoint to go on to build up a framework of how the game works, and a second point is a 100% improvement. Less so for scum, because they probably already know each other's roles too.

Secondly, we already have wagons to look at, and flips on later days will let us look at people who're voting together or avoiding being on the same wagons. The only downside is that mcmc hasn't voted at all, which is just really bad town play from him. That hinders voting analysis whether or not we flip him now.

Thirdly, if mcmc is lurking this badly, we remove him from the game and leave more active players who give us better wagon analysis, more interactions and more gameplay. Scum isn't going to take him out for us if he's leaving himself as a big unknown, and he's really not a player town wants alive at lylo if he's not someone we can form opinions of... so if we don't have strong scumreads on active players, then mcmc is a great place for a good towny vote to go.

^^ I like this a lot
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Glooble on January 17, 2019, 03:39:31 pm
I'm ready to vote for mcmc if she hasn't popped in again by Saturday night. Space's logic is sound, I still think it doesn't give us nearly as much to go on day 2 as if they'd been participating. But the value of an active contributor still being alive is probably greater than the value of having another player of confirmed alignment whose day 1 play we can scrutinize, which is something I admit I didn't factor in.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: 2.71828..... on January 17, 2019, 04:53:58 pm
How often does LAL actually hit scum though?

Basically never. Scum!mcmc (hate to say it) doesn't lurk this hard
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: ashersky on January 17, 2019, 05:53:59 pm
How often does LAL actually hit scum though?

Basically never. Scum!mcmc (hate to say it) doesn't lurk this hard

This is correct. When momsalon rolls scum, he is into the game.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: ashersky on January 17, 2019, 05:55:20 pm
Deadline is Sunday evening for me, so I don’t foresee any problems being around.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Swowl on January 17, 2019, 07:20:40 pm
One could argue if your plans are generally Pro-Town regardless of alignment, then it is skummy to make town wait to hear said plan.

No it isn't if letting scum hear the plan isn't part of the plan.

I mean i guess that makes sense... but that means never stating the plan. So why even say there is a plan?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on January 17, 2019, 07:21:10 pm
Deadline is Sunday evening for me, so I don’t foresee any problems being around.

It's possible that you, Awaclus and e are the only ones who can be there easily! I may be awake, but it's early for me because I'm a night owl and Sundays are for ensuring I get enough sleep to face the week ahead :-P

Everyone else: that means that the "least number of additional votes to lynch" mechanic comes into play, and those three between them probably get to decide who dies if the rest of us don't form a firm enough consensus.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on January 17, 2019, 07:29:32 pm
I mean i guess that makes sense... but that means never stating the plan. So why even say there is a plan?

If he didn't state that he had a plan, he wouldn't get to be the centre of attention without doing any actual scum-hunting :-P

I was going to say that I have no good reason to scumread him for it, since that's just what he does most games. However, in this game we're explicitly talking about how it's an anti-town thing to let the game stall just because he's announced an intent to post a plan for future discussion, and he's aware that people are doing exactly that kind of stalling (whether he thinks they should or not...), and yet he's still not revealing his alleged plan. So I guess that is a bit anti-town; I just don't feel like that sort of anti-town play is all that alignment-indicative coming from Ashersky :-(

Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on January 17, 2019, 07:47:44 pm
Space Count

Robz888 (1): Galzria
hypercube (4): 2.71828....., Glooble, Robz888, mail-mi
DatSwan (1): Awaclus
mcmcsalot (3): WestCoastDidds, SpaceAnemone, hypercube
ashersky (2): DatSwan, jotheonah
jotheonah (1): LaLight
Not Voting (2): mcmcsalot, ashersky


Galz has been awol for more than 48 hours, and his preceding post was a day and a half before that.. so he's not exactly been engaged. The Robz vote did not seem to be cast based on game-play.

Glooble and mail-mi have expressed some interest in moving to mcmc, or at least acknowledging my reasoning there. I should stress that any actual scum-reads people have are things they should definitely vote on, and my case on mcmc is only that all other things being equal, it's better to lynch dead weight than a more active towny. (Lynching scum is better, but is not something I typically expect we can do on D1 anyway).

Ash and e have both indicated that mcmc's low participation level is indicative of him being town. I take the point, but TBH, there's far too much acceptance of people going long periods without meaningful contributions now, so I think hard lurking is a strategy people could get away with as scum far better now than when I first joined the forum. Therefore I'm not at all willing to give significant townpoints for his disappearance.

Awaclus looks quite lonely on the Swan wagon there. Not long ago he was schooling Swan about how making wagons one vote larger is always pro-town.. does that mean he thinks it's untowny to sit on lonely solitary wagons instead of making existing ones bigger?

Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mcmcsalot on January 17, 2019, 08:02:29 pm
im in mid catch-up btw apologies for the absence
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mail-mi on January 17, 2019, 08:24:04 pm
1. SpaceAnemone - is doing regular SpaceAnemone things, from what I remember. Slight town read.
2. jotheonah - Still seems a little too flippant. Scum read
3. LaLight - Um... don't remember anything in particular right now, null read
4. DatSwan - same as above, though I suppose if everyone decided to sheep Awaclus I could join
5. mail-mi - is me
6. Awaclus - is Awaclus. As always, slight scum read
7. 2.71828..... - seems to be good. Wouldn't prefer to lynch today
8. WestCoastDidds - seems townie to me, wouldn't prefer to lynch
9. Robz888 - is in robz's d1 laze. Eh, null read
10. hypercube - preferred lynch
11. mcmcsalot - lurking, but I agree with e's and ash's posts though. Less sure about lynching him
12. ashersky - null read
13. Galzria - Lurking, but is a vet. Would also lynch him, probably over mcmc
14. Glooble - want to give him a d1 pass, but if everyone wants to lynch him I will
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on January 17, 2019, 08:34:56 pm
im in mid catch-up btw apologies for the absence

Hooray! You've been missed!
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mcmcsalot on January 17, 2019, 08:41:41 pm
Okay so the hyper cube wagon was a good day one wagon and went away based on people bringing up other worse wagons and not attacking the validity of the cube wagon. vote: hypercube
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mcmcsalot on January 17, 2019, 08:43:44 pm
also e, mail-me, ash and wcd are all super towny.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mcmcsalot on January 17, 2019, 08:48:25 pm
can confirm ash plans are bad for scum.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: jotheonah on January 17, 2019, 08:49:45 pm
Okay so the hyper cube wagon was a good day one wagon and went away based on people bringing up other worse wagons and not attacking the validity of the cube wagon. vote: hypercube

What was the case on her again?

My issue with that wagon is all my scumreada are on it.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: jotheonah on January 17, 2019, 08:51:25 pm
Also what are you taking about “went away”? It’s currently the leading wagon...
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on January 17, 2019, 09:06:19 pm
I'm also interested in hearing the case on hyper. It seems like it started because he was reminding us of the plurality lynch, and I don't find that scummy.

I am feeling the argument that dead weight is a better lynch than an active player, and hyper has been active. If mcmc is gonna start playing with us, I'll move to Glaz. Is she starts playing to, then hyper looks more attractive to me. LL is less active than I'd expect, too. I forgot she was playing until I read Mail-mi's list.

My biggest town reads are Space, mail-mi, and Swan.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mcmcsalot on January 17, 2019, 09:23:52 pm
Also what are you taking about “went away”? It’s currently the leading wagon...

oh it is good, it felt like people stopped discussing it. Interesting that the votes stayed.

It actually started from him making a scummy vote for joth

Vote: Jotheonah

This felt like pouncing on mail-mi for something that might very well be wrong but was not especially likely to come from scum. (Town needs no help tricking itself into mass claiming.)

When does scum ever actually do this? Scum doesn't need to pounce at this juncture. Scum just needs to wait for a good-looking town wagon and slide onboard.

Well, scum wants to look like they're.scumhunting.

vote: joth

vote: hypercube

This is exactly the position scum wants to be on the wagon. Voting for someone who already has votes, and turning a couple votes into an actual wagon

I know that didn't make much sense, I'm having a hard time putting my thoughts into words. I hope you (meaning the general populus)understands what I'm trying to say
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mcmcsalot on January 17, 2019, 09:24:33 pm
Also I can second robz who said mail-mi votes very mid consciousness
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Awaclus on January 17, 2019, 09:57:02 pm
Awaclus looks quite lonely on the Swan wagon there. Not long ago he was schooling Swan about how making wagons one vote larger is always pro-town.. does that mean he thinks it's untowny to sit on lonely solitary wagons instead of making existing ones bigger?

It would be pro-town of people to join this wagon to make it bigger.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mcmcsalot on January 17, 2019, 10:22:09 pm
Awaclus looks quite lonely on the Swan wagon there. Not long ago he was schooling Swan about how making wagons one vote larger is always pro-town.. does that mean he thinks it's untowny to sit on lonely solitary wagons instead of making existing ones bigger?

It would be pro-town of people to join this wagon to make it bigger.

whats the swan case? he feels less swany this game but not sure what that means alignment wise
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Awaclus on January 17, 2019, 11:14:56 pm
whats the swan case? he feels less swany this game but not sure what that means alignment wise

What isn't the swan case?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: jotheonah on January 18, 2019, 12:09:29 am
Quote from: WestCoastDidds link=topic=19374.msg783265#msg783265
LL is less active than I'd expect, too. I forgot she was playing until I read Mail-mi's list.

LL is in LyLo in another game, so I’m inclined to cut her a little slack on that account.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Awaclus on January 18, 2019, 12:32:43 am
Quote from: WestCoastDidds link=topic=19374.msg783265#msg783265
LL is less active than I'd expect, too. I forgot she was playing until I read Mail-mi's list.

LL is in LyLo in another game, so I’m inclined to cut her a little slack on that account.

Please don't talk about other ongoing games.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: LaLight on January 18, 2019, 03:14:21 am
I am also really confused on D1 pretty much always. I will try to be here at deadline, but no promises, it's a weekend after all
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: LaLight on January 18, 2019, 03:15:06 am
nevermind, it's 4 am
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: hypercube on January 18, 2019, 05:32:38 am
oh it is good, it felt like people stopped discussing it. Interesting that the votes stayed.

It actually started from him making a scummy vote for joth

That vote was fine. I stand by the point that joth's vote for mail-mi could be explained as scum trying to look like they're scumhunting, since mail-mi floating a flavour claim isn't really something that points to scum. It was also good to get the first non-RVS wagon going.

People haven't been discussing the case against me because it's not a good case, and scum have no motivation to engage with the people who have been pointing that out since the wagon keeps rolling regardless. The case is mostly based on me having read the setup; as you perhaps remember from M119 I'm someone who likes to engage with the setup in general.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Glooble on January 18, 2019, 06:06:52 am
My vote for cube is actually based on what looked to me at the time like a very suspicious vote for me. It seemed like she was trying to deflect the case on her that was obviously building, what with e promising a great case on cube.

That case turned out to be underwhelming though.

E is feeling very pro-town to me partially because she’s been defending me and my wagon looks to me like it would be the easiest one for scum to push, since I’ve admittedly said some scummy things. But I admit that logic is only useful if you know I’m town, and at this point only I know that.

I’m wondering how much of the cube wagon right now is herd mentality/ fear of a plurality lynch.I think the main driver of the hypercube wagon is e, so I’d love to see more defense of it from her.  I still have a scumread on cube, but some of it is admittedly OMGUS-related. But combined with the fact that we do get some really useful intel in the event that she does flip town, and I think she has a slightly better chance than others of flipping scum, I’m going to keep my vote where it is.

That being said, I’d love to see everyone on the cube wagon offer a similar explanation of their thought process, if only to give us more to analyze day two.

Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on January 18, 2019, 06:38:07 am
my wagon looks to me like it would be the easiest one for scum to push, since I’ve admittedly said some scummy things.

Again, I find myself disagreeing with you. You're the one person multiple people have said is getting a D1 pass due to being back after a long absence. If you're town, I think scum aren't going to waste their time trying to push a mislynch because of townies stating they just don't want to vote for you. I think the most likely people to have voted for you are townies who think you're actually scummy.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: hypercube on January 18, 2019, 06:50:28 am
My vote for cube is actually based on what looked to me at the time like a very suspicious vote for me. It seemed like she was trying to deflect the case on her that was obviously building, what with e promising a great case on cube.

That case turned out to be underwhelming though.

At the time I voted for you, E had presented her case; I didn't think it would generate a lot of discussion since it wasn't very strong and it didn't really present anything new. I thought voting for you was a good idea since you'd been posting a good amount but not in a way that was committal or was conducive to reading you. And it worked, you were compelled to produce more content that led to people forming reads on you.

E is feeling very pro-town to me partially because she’s been defending me and my wagon looks to me like it would be the easiest one for scum to push, since I’ve admittedly said some scummy things. But I admit that logic is only useful if you know I’m town, and at this point only I know that.

Well, scum also would know that you're town, so you shouldn't necessarily trust people for that reason. I'm not sure if it's a scumslip or a townslip for you to have forgotten that.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: hypercube on January 18, 2019, 06:57:30 am
One thing I've noticed about the game thus far is that people are very willing to defend joth. mail-mi and mcmc use my vote for joth as justification for their votes on me; E moves directly from joth to me after I vote for joth and then her case against me derails the joth wagon for good. I think this points towards joth being town? Certainly I'd think that scum would try to avoid defending their buddies so blatantly, especially since it never seemed super likely that joth would get lynched.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: jotheonah on January 18, 2019, 07:32:09 am
I’m going to go ahead and say it: I strongly dislike the cube wagon. Everything about it feels scummy and bad. I’m going to move my vote to vote: mcmc. Not because of lurking, because of the posting she’s done since she stopped lurking.

I think describing the hypercube wagon as stalled while hypercube was the leading wagon, after saying she just caught up, is a scumslip. Someone who just caught up wouldn’t make that mistake. Someone who was reading along and not posting and decided to make an appearance when the heat started getting on them might.

I know that when I’m scum it’s hard to get myself to actually reread since I’m not actually looking for information.

Even if the mistake isn’t a scum slip, “sorry I’ve been lurking, I’m going to reread and conclude that the best lynch happens to also be the person with the most votes on her already” doesn’t look great on its own.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Glooble on January 18, 2019, 07:36:11 am
That makes sense, and it’s enough for me to switch my vote.

vote: mcmcsalot
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: jotheonah on January 18, 2019, 07:39:03 am
That’s L-3 I think.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: ashersky on January 18, 2019, 08:24:20 am
That sheep vote by Glooble is scummy.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Glooble on January 18, 2019, 08:27:12 am
That sheep vote by Glooble is scummy.


I've sort of resigned myself at this point to literally everything I do being seen as scummy, regardless of my alignment. TBH its kind of freeing.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Glooble on January 18, 2019, 08:32:51 am
That being said, I'll explain my vote a little more. 1. Joth's logic resonated with me. 2. Hypercube's defense of her vote on me made me less sure of my scumread on her. 3. As I already said in my previous post, I've been growing a little suspicious of the cube wagon anyway. I just thought it was the best one we had. Now I don't, so I changed my vote.


Satisfied?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: 2.71828..... on January 18, 2019, 09:04:06 am
Vote: jotheonah
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: jotheonah on January 18, 2019, 09:23:25 am
Vote: jotheonah

cool story bro
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mcmcsalot on January 18, 2019, 10:44:33 am
I’m going to go ahead and say it: I strongly dislike the cube wagon. Everything about it feels scummy and bad. I’m going to move my vote to vote: mcmc. Not because of lurking, because of the posting she’s done since she stopped lurking.

I think describing the hypercube wagon as stalled while hypercube was the leading wagon, after saying she just caught up, is a scumslip. Someone who just caught up wouldn’t make that mistake. Someone who was reading along and not posting and decided to make an appearance when the heat started getting on them might.

I know that when I’m scum it’s hard to get myself to actually reread since I’m not actually looking for information.

Even if the mistake isn’t a scum slip, “sorry I’ve been lurking, I’m going to reread and conclude that the best lynch happens to also be the person with the most votes on her already” doesn’t look great on its own.

I think this is slightly an incorrect representation of what happened the hypercube wagon has stalled out. the last votes for hyper was from globle, robz and mail-mi returning early on the 16th. Discussion surrounding the wagon and votes has been very minimal despite being a leading wagon most of the day. I think my analiysis of it being a good wagon based on the fact that it has mainly been counterwagoning to try to prevent the hyper lynch instead of defenses of/from hyper (that is until recently).
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: jotheonah on January 18, 2019, 10:52:32 am
I’m going to go ahead and say it: I strongly dislike the cube wagon. Everything about it feels scummy and bad. I’m going to move my vote to vote: mcmc. Not because of lurking, because of the posting she’s done since she stopped lurking.

I think describing the hypercube wagon as stalled while hypercube was the leading wagon, after saying she just caught up, is a scumslip. Someone who just caught up wouldn’t make that mistake. Someone who was reading along and not posting and decided to make an appearance when the heat started getting on them might.

I know that when I’m scum it’s hard to get myself to actually reread since I’m not actually looking for information.

Even if the mistake isn’t a scum slip, “sorry I’ve been lurking, I’m going to reread and conclude that the best lynch happens to also be the person with the most votes on her already” doesn’t look great on its own.

I think this is slightly an incorrect representation of what happened the hypercube wagon has stalled out. the last votes for hyper was from glooble, robz and mail-mi returning early on the 16th. Discussion surrounding the wagon and votes has been very minimal despite being a leading wagon most of the day. I think my analiysis of it being a good wagon based on the fact that it has mainly been counterwagoning to try to prevent the hyper lynch instead of defenses of/from hyper (that is until recently).

the exact words you used were "went away". If you had said "stalled out" I might have agreed.

Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Robz888 on January 18, 2019, 11:08:03 am
I'm at a conference until Sunday, what is our deadline? I will be around very little.

I'm still happy with my hypercube vote.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mail-mi on January 18, 2019, 11:18:37 am
I just reread hypercube, and I am no longer satisfied with my vote on her unvote. She hasn't really responded to the wagon on her, which is would be odd scum behavior to me. I feel like scum!hypercube would react more.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mail-mi on January 18, 2019, 11:22:18 am
Galzria has 8 total posts, 3 of which are pregame. His vote is still on an RVS wagon on Robz.

vote: galzria
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mcmcsalot on January 18, 2019, 11:34:29 am
I just reread hypercube, and I am no longer satisfied with my vote on her unvote. She hasn't really responded to the wagon on her, which is would be odd scum behavior to me. I feel like scum!hypercube would react more.

I actually disagree with this, town defends wagons on themselves very strongly, they don’t mind getting embroiled in controversy. Scum really wants their wagon to just die down and go away.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mcmcsalot on January 18, 2019, 11:37:58 am
the exact words you used were "went away". If you had said "stalled out" I might have agreed.

That’s reasonable, but also I think your characterization that I didn’t reread carefully is scummy is wrong. Because I was right the wagon had “slid to the background” as of recent. And no I wasn’t keeping track of where the votes were moving from where to where as I reread so I missed that despite hyper not having been voted for for a long time those votes were still lingering in the background.

Also scum mcmc doesn’t come in from a reread and casually join a wagon, he finds a scummy thing a town player did and pushes it hard.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mail-mi on January 18, 2019, 11:45:49 am
I just reread hypercube, and I am no longer satisfied with my vote on her unvote. She hasn't really responded to the wagon on her, which is would be odd scum behavior to me. I feel like scum!hypercube would react more.

I actually disagree with this, town defends wagons on themselves very strongly, they don’t mind getting embroiled in controversy. Scum really wants their wagon to just die down and go away.

that's a good point, however, I still feel like she's less scummy than I at first thought. If she ends up being the lynch for the day, I'll join, but she's no longer my preferred lynch.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mcmcsalot on January 18, 2019, 11:46:25 am
I just reread hypercube, and I am no longer satisfied with my vote on her unvote. She hasn't really responded to the wagon on her, which is would be odd scum behavior to me. I feel like scum!hypercube would react more.

I actually disagree with this, town defends wagons on themselves very strongly, they don’t mind getting embroiled in controversy. Scum really wants their wagon to just die down and go away.

that's a good point, however, I still feel like she's less scummy than I at first thought. If she ends up being the lynch for the day, I'll join, but she's no longer my preferred lynch.

Who is?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mcmcsalot on January 18, 2019, 11:47:37 am
Galzria has 8 total posts, 3 of which are pregame. His vote is still on an RVS wagon on Robz.

vote: galzria

oh duh, this also appears to be a lurker lynch. As I said I dislike that instead of people strongly going "i don't like the hyper wagon" we are just going maybe we should lynch player x or y who has posted no content.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mail-mi on January 18, 2019, 11:50:30 am
Galzria has 8 total posts, 3 of which are pregame. His vote is still on an RVS wagon on Robz.

vote: galzria

oh duh, this also appears to be a lurker lynch. As I said I dislike that instead of people strongly going "i don't like the hyper wagon" we are just going maybe we should lynch player x or y who has posted no content.

he's basically a placeholder for my vote until I can do a proper reread and find someone better
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mail-mi on January 18, 2019, 11:51:14 am
Galzria has 8 total posts, 3 of which are pregame. His vote is still on an RVS wagon on Robz.

vote: galzria

oh duh, this also appears to be a lurker lynch. As I said I dislike that instead of people strongly going "i don't like the hyper wagon" we are just going maybe we should lynch player x or y who has posted no content.

he's basically a placeholder for my vote until I can do a proper reread and find someone better

or until someone else presents a good case. the only case I remember off the top of my head right now is the one on hypercube
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: jotheonah on January 18, 2019, 11:56:05 am
Galzria has 8 total posts, 3 of which are pregame. His vote is still on an RVS wagon on Robz.

vote: galzria

oh duh, this also appears to be a lurker lynch. As I said I dislike that instead of people strongly going "i don't like the hyper wagon" we are just going maybe we should lynch player x or y who has posted no content.

he's basically a placeholder for my vote until I can do a proper reread and find someone better

or until someone else presents a good case. the only case I remember off the top of my head right now is the one on hypercube

How about the case on mcmcsalot I made just moments ago?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on January 18, 2019, 12:01:42 pm
Going back to what Space said earlier, I don't think in a game like this that voting for someone who isn't even trying to play is a bad idea. We learn something about how this game is going to work by seeing the flip (and we really have zero idea about how this game is going to work but having read the books I am quite certain that there is going to be some interesting twists).

When Hyper was last scum in a game I played with him (Towny mafia), he got very jumpy and defensive when we voted for him. He isn't acting like that now.  Could be he learned from that exchange (he's a smart one, that cube) or it could be that he's not scum.

I haven't got to play with town Mcmc yet....maybe this time? (also, why are you "momsalon"?) I am still town reading mail-mi, Space, and Swan.

So, in the interest of letting players play a while longer vote: Galzria
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mail-mi on January 18, 2019, 12:27:34 pm
Galzria has 8 total posts, 3 of which are pregame. His vote is still on an RVS wagon on Robz.

vote: galzria

oh duh, this also appears to be a lurker lynch. As I said I dislike that instead of people strongly going "i don't like the hyper wagon" we are just going maybe we should lynch player x or y who has posted no content.

he's basically a placeholder for my vote until I can do a proper reread and find someone better

or until someone else presents a good case. the only case I remember off the top of my head right now is the one on hypercube

How about the case on mcmcsalot I made just moments ago?

i only skimmed over it, now I'm gonna go look at it.

I’m going to go ahead and say it: I strongly dislike the cube wagon. Everything about it feels scummy and bad. I’m going to move my vote to vote: mcmc. Not because of lurking, because of the posting she’s done since she stopped lurking.

I think describing the hypercube wagon as stalled while hypercube was the leading wagon, after saying she just caught up, is a scumslip. Someone who just caught up wouldn’t make that mistake. Someone who was reading along and not posting and decided to make an appearance when the heat started getting on them might.

I know that when I’m scum it’s hard to get myself to actually reread since I’m not actually looking for information.

Even if the mistake isn’t a scum slip, “sorry I’ve been lurking, I’m going to reread and conclude that the best lynch happens to also be the person with the most votes on her already” doesn’t look great on its own.

I'm not sure what I think about this. On the one hand, I like it, because I think it's scummy that mcmc came back right after we started putting pressure on her. I also like the last paragraph of this case.

On the other, the hyper wagon was stalling--it wasn't growing in votes or declining in votes. It was just kinda stagnant. I also still scumread you a little bit, so I don't trust this case quite as much.

conclusion: mcmc is a little scummier to me now
 
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Awaclus on January 18, 2019, 04:24:10 pm
I'm slightly VLA at the moment.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Glooble on January 18, 2019, 04:30:48 pm
I don't know that acronym.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mcmcsalot on January 18, 2019, 04:33:43 pm
Vacation/Limited Acess
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Glooble on January 18, 2019, 07:19:09 pm
Thanks.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on January 18, 2019, 07:47:00 pm
can confirm ash plans are bad for scum.

This is interesting. I've yet to encounter an Ash plan I didn't think was a terrible idea for town.

Did someone name one that worked out well somewhere in this thread? I'm sure I read a rec for one a few minutes ago, but I can't find it again now...
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on January 18, 2019, 07:48:00 pm
Vote Count 1.Didds

Robz888 (1): Galzria
hypercube (2):Robz888, , mcmc
DatSwan (1): Awaclus
mcmcsalot (4): SpaceAnemone, hypercube, jotheonah, Glooble
ashersky (1): DatSwan,
jotheonah (2): LaLight, 2.71828.....
galzria: (2) mail-mi, WCD
Not Voting (1): , ashersky

For realz vote count, please

I'm super disappointed that we stalled today. I was hoping we'd hear more from the folks who have been scarce. Le sigh. We have like 32 hours, and that includes a bunch of sleeping. If things remain the same Mcmc is lynched. Is that going to make our game better? How can we leverage the people who are actively engaged in the most productive fashion?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on January 18, 2019, 07:50:14 pm
I don't even know how a plan would work at this plate. We know so little...what could a plan possibly entail that would help us know more? Or maybe I am just so unaccustomed to plans that I can't see how that would work.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on January 18, 2019, 07:50:29 pm
In related news, this time tomorrow will be the end of D1 as far as I'm concerned, because I expect I'll be asleep from a little after 8pm forum time till after the 4am forum time deadline has passed.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on January 18, 2019, 07:52:27 pm
So, in the interest of letting players play a while longer vote: Galzria

Does the fact you've moved to Galz mean that you're still sold on a lurker lynch idea but letting mcmc off the hook? What do you think he's dome that's particularly exonerating?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on January 18, 2019, 07:56:06 pm
I don't know that acronym.

I know mcmc has already answered that VLA means "Vacation/Limited Access", but you might also like to know that there's a VLA thread (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=3621.0) where people can make their planned absences known to other players. It's useful for checking whether a player has posted a disappearance or just gone awol from a particular game.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on January 18, 2019, 07:58:15 pm
Vote Count 1.Didds

If it's any help, my automated count agrees with this one :-)
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on January 18, 2019, 08:07:16 pm
Space, how are you feeling about Mcmc now?

PPE to me...

I am frustrated at the folks who are just absent. I understand busy, but come on. I don't think we can even say its lurking, because that implies sitting in the corner and watching. So, that is all frustration.

Mcmc...well, I don't find him particularly redeemed or exonerated by his play, but I do find him somewhat different than the other two games I have played with him. He was scum in both of them and was around quite a bit more and when he was he was pushing someone in particular consistently. He hasn't done that here. Not terribly compelling as far as a reason, I know, but it is more than I can say about some other's play (I have never known LL to be this scarce, I don't really know e at all).

Joth's case on mcmc which actually had reasons was based on his catch-up reading and hinge's on a turn of phrase as a scum slip. If it was a scum slip, Joth is awesome. But that seems unlikely to me.

e then votes for Joth for his mcmc analysis (I am assuming based on entirely on proximity of the votes) so maybe she feels like Joth was reaching too far or trying too hard.

I guess my conclusion is that mcmc is not decisively scum yet. So, I don't want him to get lynched when there are other people not playing at all. (again with the frustration...)
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on January 18, 2019, 08:49:48 pm
Sorry...that was cranky. I'll try to moderate the grumpasuarusness.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Swowl on January 18, 2019, 09:08:41 pm
Space, how are you feeling about Mcmc now?

PPE to me...

I am frustrated at the folks who are just absent. I understand busy, but come on. I don't think we can even say its lurking, because that implies sitting in the corner and watching. So, that is all frustration.

Mcmc...well, I don't find him particularly redeemed or exonerated by his play, but I do find him somewhat different than the other two games I have played with him. He was scum in both of them and was around quite a bit more and when he was he was pushing someone in particular consistently. He hasn't done that here. Not terribly compelling as far as a reason, I know, but it is more than I can say about some other's play (I have never known LL to be this scarce, I don't really know e at all).

Joth's case on mcmc which actually had reasons was based on his catch-up reading and hinge's on a turn of phrase as a scum slip. If it was a scum slip, Joth is awesome. But that seems unlikely to me.

e then votes for Joth for his mcmc analysis (I am assuming based on entirely on proximity of the votes) so maybe she feels like Joth was reaching too far or trying too hard.

I guess my conclusion is that mcmc is not decisively scum yet. So, I don't want him to get lynched when there are other people not playing at all. (again with the frustration...)

Why are you town reading me?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: ashersky on January 18, 2019, 09:08:57 pm
can confirm ash plans are bad for scum.

This is interesting. I've yet to encounter an Ash plan I didn't think was a terrible idea for town.

Did someone name one that worked out well somewhere in this thread? I'm sure I read a rec for one a few minutes ago, but I can't find it again now...

Now this just seems personal. You’ve been around long enough to know what you are saying is untrue.

And I believe it was 2.7 who recommended a plan to read.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: ashersky on January 18, 2019, 09:16:30 pm
If you want another example, I suggest M30. Flawless town win, which I think started with my plan.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: ashersky on January 18, 2019, 09:22:42 pm
Also Mafia 47.  First post of the game, flawless win for town. Posted the plan as scum, included lynching myself first!  Completely based only on public information.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on January 18, 2019, 11:36:00 pm
Why are you town reading me?

Largely because of posts #262-265 where you discuss the implications for town of announcing a plan. Seems like helpful stuff for town to consider.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: 2.71828..... on January 19, 2019, 02:42:01 am
Also Mafia 47.  First post of the game, flawless win for town. Posted the plan as scum, included lynching myself first!  Completely based only on public information.

Yeah, m47 is what I recommended to look at for ashersky plans. I remember it well since I was mafia with ashersky. But then ashersky does have some plans that aren't so great, especially in closed setups. Because, you know, the setup is closed. It is hard to come up with a plan that people actually go with since everyone is working on limited information
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: ashersky on January 19, 2019, 05:24:32 am
request vote count
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: faust on January 19, 2019, 07:41:58 am
Vote Count 1.4

Robz888 (1): Galzria
hypercube (2): Robz888, mcmcsalot
DatSwan (1): Awaclus
mcmcsalot (3): SpaceAnemone, hypercube, Glooble
ashersky (2): DatSwan, jotheonah
jotheonah (2): LaLight, 2.71828.....
Galzria (2): mail-mi, WestCoastDidds

Not Voting (1): ashersky

With 14 alive, it takes 8 to lynch. Day 1 ends on January 20, 2019, 04:00:00 am. This is in just over 20 hours.

request prods on mcmc, Galz

Forgot to note this, but these have been sent some time ago.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mcmcsalot on January 19, 2019, 09:19:38 am
We are all over the place and should consolidate at least. Of the current players with votes I would vote for cube obviously, joth I have a scum read on, and galz I would vote for over my own lynch.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: ashersky on January 19, 2019, 09:27:50 am
shoot: mcmc
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mcmcsalot on January 19, 2019, 09:31:59 am
shoot: mcmc

Am I dead because my pr gives some setup info that would be helpful to know.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: ashersky on January 19, 2019, 09:38:21 am
shoot: mcmc

Am I dead because my pr gives some setup info that would be helpful to know.

Yes. Sorry if you are town. Went with biggest wagon.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Glooble on January 19, 2019, 09:46:33 am
This was the big plan?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: faust on January 19, 2019, 09:56:23 am
A quick move was all it took, and the ship carrying the Lord of the Radch's emissary went up in flames.

mcmcsalot has been killed! She was Mercy of Kalr, the Radch-aligned Fixed Modified Multi-Motion Dectector!

Haddock replaces Galzria! D1 deadline is extended by 24 hours.


Vote Count 1.5

Robz888 (1): Haddock
hypercube (1): Robz888
DatSwan (1): Awaclus
ashersky (2): DatSwan, jotheonah
jotheonah (2): LaLight, 2.71828.....
Haddock (2): mail-mi, WestCoastDidds

Not Voting (4): ashersky, SpaceAnemone, hypercube, Glooble

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch. Day 1 ends on January 21, 2019, 04:00:00 am.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: ashersky on January 19, 2019, 10:03:29 am
This was the big plan?

Pretty big. There’s the info. Plus what it did for my next shot. I
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: ashersky on January 19, 2019, 10:04:19 am
Although, had I known there was to be a replacement and extension, I would not have shot until tomorrow.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: ashersky on January 19, 2019, 10:06:16 am
It has no bearing at this juncture, but we often discuss having vig shots directed.  But there is thecscum element there that can’t be erased. Instead, I used the flow of day and the votes.

Honestly, if I had chosen by myself, I’d have shot Glooble.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: ashersky on January 19, 2019, 10:08:20 am
As for tomorrow, I guess we can discuss.  But I’d suggest that be left until tomorrow.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: ashersky on January 19, 2019, 10:09:45 am
I’m Captain Hetnys, btw.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: jotheonah on January 19, 2019, 10:24:52 am
It seems pretty unlikely that a multi shot, or even one-shot, dayvig is town. So I would suggest we take the ash lynch off the table, at least for now.

unvote

I’ll look at some interactions to see where to move it.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mail-mi on January 19, 2019, 10:27:21 am
Well there's that.

Back to vote: joth
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: jotheonah on January 19, 2019, 10:59:36 am
Cool cool. Anybody else feel like this Ash plan was kinda bad?

Like what good is information when we have no time to use it? Especially in a format with a mandatory lynch. Day 1 lynch is always most likely town, so Ash’s plan was “have twice as many day 1 lynches, kill twice as much town”?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: 2.71828..... on January 19, 2019, 11:21:10 am
That was a pretty terrible vig shot in my opinion
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: 2.71828..... on January 19, 2019, 11:32:46 am
Should have kept my vote on hypercube, maybe Ash could have shot them
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: 2.71828..... on January 19, 2019, 11:33:41 am
But actually. Vote: ashersky

Convince me you aren't a SK or something like that
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on January 19, 2019, 11:37:26 am
Ugh! Why kill mcmc? We weren’t that close to the deadline so it doesn’t make any sense to say the votes were there. And now we still need to lupynch someone?

Vote: Ash
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: 2.71828..... on January 19, 2019, 11:41:14 am
It has no bearing at this juncture, but we often discuss having vig shots directed.  But there is thecscum element there that can’t be erased. Instead, I used the flow of day and the votes.

Honestly, if I had chosen by myself, I’d have shot Glooble.

Shooting Glooble and it being YOUR shot would have been better than the whole "I chose the largest wagon" thing. Wagons of 2, 2, 2, 3 at the time of the shot. Yeah, just shoot your scum read. Basing it off wagons when there are no real wagons is just ugh
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: 2.71828..... on January 19, 2019, 11:45:20 am
Ok, knee jerk reaction is over.

Back to vote: joth

It seems pretty unlikely that a multi shot, or even one-shot, dayvig is town. So I would suggest we take the ash lynch off the table, at least for now.

unvote

I’ll look at some interactions to see where to move it.

This was an interesting reaction, and I think scummy
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: hypercube on January 19, 2019, 12:49:22 pm
Interesting. I think E's reaction is scummier than joth's.

vote: E
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: hypercube on January 19, 2019, 12:55:52 pm
I don't really like the joth wagon or the ash wagon. I would be willing to go back to Glooble.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: hypercube on January 19, 2019, 01:03:42 pm
I'm not really sure what to do with this new information. I thought the mcmc wagon was pretty towny, and joth's case against mcmc doesn't seem obviously terrible in hindsight. If there was a scummy vote on that wagon it it was Glooble's.

Oh wait, here's something weird: joth's vote at #327 was apparently not reflected in the official vote count.

faust, can you confirm that vote count 1.4 was correct?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on January 19, 2019, 01:07:26 pm
Cool cool. Anybody else feel like this Ash plan was kinda bad?

Nope! I'm not saying it was necessarily the optimal play there, but I like it because it's based on legitimate mod-mediated PR usage.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on January 19, 2019, 01:12:31 pm
Haddock replaces Galzria! D1 deadline is extended by 24 hours.[/b]

Hey Fish Man :-) Nice to be in a game with you again!

Not quite another twinclaim, but Haddock is the IRL friend who got me into f.ds mafia several years ago.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on January 19, 2019, 01:26:48 pm
On the optimality or otherwise of picking mcmc for the dayvig shot, I think my "case" on mcmc was that he wasn't playing very much, so given that we had to lynch someone, it was better to pick him than anyone who was active, if everyone felt equally likely to be scum. Several others including Ash said they thought mcmc was town because he wouldn't be so absent if he'd rolled scum, though personally I stayed on that wagon because scum mimicking these long player absences seems like a thing that will happen unless we make that behaviour less attractive.

Either way, as far as the rest of us know so far, Ash's shot wasn't compulsory for him. That means it wasn't a case of picking the least-bad of a set of options, so I agree with the people (e at least?) who're wondering why he didn't shoot a scumread instead of blaming the rest of us for picking mcmc. OTOH, he's explicitly hinting with "Plus what it did for my next shot" at #377 that the game might give him some boost for having used his shot and he apparently has another shot.. so if that appears not to come to pass, we could have actual evidence of scummy behaviour on his part.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on January 19, 2019, 01:28:46 pm
It seems pretty unlikely that a multi shot, or even one-shot, dayvig is town.

Am I misreading this, or are you saying that you think Ash is non-town?

I'm confused because you go on to suggest not lynching him.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Glooble on January 19, 2019, 01:42:05 pm
Here’s my read on the situation having never played a game with a diving before.

The reason for not telling people about it is to have an “ace in the hole”, so to speak. Now that it’s been used, everyone, town and scum knows to be on the lookout for it. I’m not sure why giving up the element of surprise to shoot someone you don’t have a particularly strong read on is a good use of the power.

Shooting me would have made a lot more sense. I would be less suspicious of that. Of course I would be dead, so that wouldn’t matter.

Shooting mcmc makes more sense if you’re scum. He’s got this “they were gonna lynch him anyway” defense, plus it throws suspicion onto me because people are going to wonder why you didn’t shoot me if I was your scumread.

Not to mention the fact that you say you had no idea the deadline would be extended, which means... you wanted to remove the only wagon with enough votes on it to be non-random at a point where the town had no time to reach a new consensus?

That’s super scummy to me.

vote: ash
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Glooble on January 19, 2019, 01:42:40 pm
Diving was meant to be day-vig- Sorry, I’m on my phone.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: faust on January 19, 2019, 01:43:05 pm
faust, can you confirm that vote count 1.4 was correct?

I missed that vote.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: LaLight on January 19, 2019, 02:02:31 pm
vote: ash
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: hypercube on January 19, 2019, 02:11:39 pm
Cool cool. Anybody else feel like this Ash plan was kinda bad?

Nope! I'm not saying it was necessarily the optimal play there, but I like it because it's based on legitimate mod-mediated PR usage.

Can you explain this further? Specifically the "legitimate, mod-mediated" part (how can a PR usage be illegitimate?) and why that means the plan wasn't bad.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mail-mi on January 19, 2019, 02:12:52 pm
I don't think ash is scum.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Glooble on January 19, 2019, 02:16:27 pm
I don't think ash is scum.

Cool. I do. Care to elaborate?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mail-mi on January 19, 2019, 02:25:20 pm
I don't think ash is scum.

Cool. I do. Care to elaborate?

Well a. Cause of setup stuff, (it would be hard to balance a dayvig as scum (granted, if anyone could do it faust could)) and b it just seems like normal ash

Though now that I think about it, all the dayvigs in my memory have been town, and so it would be unique for Faust to do a scum dayvig.... I guess that's all wifom though.

Anyway I don't think we should lynch ash today, but he's not IC by any means. Definitely worth scrutiny on future days
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Glooble on January 19, 2019, 02:28:31 pm
Do we have mod confirmation that this is not multiball? Though I guess ash’s behavior makes even less sense as SK.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: jotheonah on January 19, 2019, 02:30:21 pm
It seems pretty unlikely that a multi shot, or even one-shot, dayvig is town.

Am I misreading this, or are you saying that you think Ash is non-town?

I'm confused because you go on to suggest not lynching him.

Sorry. I meant to say "is scum".
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mail-mi on January 19, 2019, 02:31:08 pm
Do we have mod confirmation that this is not multiball? Though I guess ash’s behavior makes even less sense as SK.
No
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: jotheonah on January 19, 2019, 02:32:15 pm
Ash, come tell us why your plan isn't as objectively terrible as it looks.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: 2.71828..... on January 19, 2019, 03:07:05 pm
Ash, come tell us why your plan isn't as objectively terrible as it looks.

Because it looks terrible. Scum!Ash can make some pretty bold moves, but so can town!Ash. I think a bad plan for town would look better and end up worse. This is obviously not a win-the-game-D1 plan, but one that should help us in the long run.

I want to see this play out, at least through D2. And I don't really want Ashersky to give any more details on his plan until at least D2. So let's try not lying him
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: 2.71828..... on January 19, 2019, 03:11:22 pm
Ash, come tell us why your plan isn't as objectively terrible as it looks.

Because it looks terrible. Scum!Ash can make some pretty bold moves, but so can town!Ash. I think a bad plan for town would look better and end up worse. This is obviously not a win-the-game-D1 plan, but one that should help us in the long run.

I want to see this play out, at least through D2. And I don't really want Ashersky to give any more details on his plan until at least D2. So let's try not lying* him

*Lynching
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Haddock on January 19, 2019, 03:27:30 pm
Hey guys!
Heck i have much much to catch up with.
I will read up as best as I can in the next 24 hrs. This evening I'm hosting a dinner party so am effectively afk for tonight.

Thoughts to come as soon as I possibly can. Good to be playing again though.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Awaclus on January 19, 2019, 03:47:56 pm
Why is dayvigging the biggest wagon a bad idea? Ash essentially gave town another lynch.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on January 19, 2019, 03:53:47 pm
Nope! I'm not saying it was necessarily the optimal play there, but I like it because it's based on legitimate mod-mediated PR usage.

Can you explain this further? Specifically the "legitimate, mod-mediated" part (how can a PR usage be illegitimate?) and why that means the plan wasn't bad.

I mean his "plan" here is just the use of his PR, in a way the mod planned for and mediated. It isn't something more wacky like I'd kind of been expecting.

In the last RMM I played with him, he presented two plans (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=18935.msg769219#msg769219) and the discussion later concluded that neither were particularly helpful to town. I see in that RMM game I was also totally unimpressed that people were stalling waiting for ash's plan, because as usual he announced that he talked about the existence of a plan long before he intended to reveal it :-P

Wasn't there another game where his plan involved lying to town about his role and claiming he could IC himself where in fact the only "ICing" that he could achieve was that he'd flip town when he died?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: jotheonah on January 19, 2019, 03:59:10 pm
Why is dayvigging the biggest wagon a bad idea? Ash essentially gave town another lynch.

Without giving mcmc the opportunity to claim and without giving us enough time to use that info to make an informed decision. And remember, he wanted us to have even less time. As I said before:

what good is information when we have no time to use it? Especially in a format with a mandatory lynch. Day 1 lynch is always most likely town, so Ash’s plan was “have twice as many day 1 lynches, kill twice as much town”?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: jotheonah on January 19, 2019, 04:03:59 pm
The only reason I'm not voting ashersky is I think he's unlikely to be scum with that power. But that leaves me thinking she's town that's playing really badly, and that doesn't sit super well with me with what I know of ashersky.

It has no bearing at this juncture, but we often discuss having vig shots directed.  But there is thecscum element there that can’t be erased. Instead, I used the flow of day and the votes.

Honestly, if I had chosen by myself, I’d have shot Glooble.

This makes zero sense to me. Ash is saying "I didn't want to have town direct my shot, because then scum would manipulate it." (so far so good). So instead, I let myself be guided by the top wagon, because clearly there's no possibility that scum is manipulating that.

(I am of course being sarcastic. There is every possibility that the largest day one wagon is on town and being manipulated by scum, in fact it's much, much more likely than not.)

Someone convince me that ashersky could be scum without the set up being broken because I badly want to vote for her.

Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: LaLight on January 19, 2019, 04:10:47 pm
The only reason I'm not voting ashersky is I think he's unlikely to be scum with that power. But that leaves me thinking she's town that's playing really badly, and that doesn't sit super well with me with what I know of ashersky.

It has no bearing at this juncture, but we often discuss having vig shots directed.  But there is thecscum element there that can’t be erased. Instead, I used the flow of day and the votes.

Honestly, if I had chosen by myself, I’d have shot Glooble.

This makes zero sense to me. Ash is saying "I didn't want to have town direct my shot, because then scum would manipulate it." (so far so good). So instead, I let myself be guided by the top wagon, because clearly there's no possibility that scum is manipulating that.

(I am of course being sarcastic. There is every possibility that the largest day one wagon is on town and being manipulated by scum, in fact it's much, much more likely than not.)

Someone convince me that ashersky could be scum without the set up being broken because I badly want to vote for her.

I played a normal game on another site where scum team had 1 dayvig shot. Also maybe they should forgo the nk now. Or he’s a third party. Pick one
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: jotheonah on January 19, 2019, 04:31:17 pm
The only reason I'm not voting ashersky is I think he's unlikely to be scum with that power. But that leaves me thinking she's town that's playing really badly, and that doesn't sit super well with me with what I know of ashersky.

It has no bearing at this juncture, but we often discuss having vig shots directed.  But there is thecscum element there that can’t be erased. Instead, I used the flow of day and the votes.

Honestly, if I had chosen by myself, I’d have shot Glooble.

This makes zero sense to me. Ash is saying "I didn't want to have town direct my shot, because then scum would manipulate it." (so far so good). So instead, I let myself be guided by the top wagon, because clearly there's no possibility that scum is manipulating that.

(I am of course being sarcastic. There is every possibility that the largest day one wagon is on town and being manipulated by scum, in fact it's much, much more likely than not.)

Someone convince me that ashersky could be scum without the set up being broken because I badly want to vote for her.

I played a normal game on another site where scum team had 1 dayvig shot. Also maybe they should forgo the nk now. Or he’s a third party. Pick one

Good enough for me. vote: ash
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on January 19, 2019, 04:42:51 pm
So, here’s what I don’t get... Why did Ashersky kill mcmc when she did? Especially when she didn’t think she was scum? It’s seems pretty anti-town to choose the only marginally largest wagon with a full day left to talk before DL and shoot before letting her claim or allowing more votes to coalesce before the kill. Especially if she really thought Glooble was more scummy.

I’m not trying to be dense (I’m still kinda new at this), so it would help if someone could explain to me how that shot at this time helps town.

Hetnys, in the books, is Radchaii but is also not regally on the right side of things and end up being held hostage by Breq (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancillary_Sword).
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on January 19, 2019, 04:45:03 pm
Do we have mod confirmation that this is not multiball? Though I guess ash’s behavior makes even less sense as SK.

Can you tell me what this means? What’s multiball?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Glooble on January 19, 2019, 04:55:53 pm
Do we have mod confirmation that this is not multiball? Though I guess ash’s behavior makes even less sense as SK.

Can you tell me what this means? What’s multiball?

SK is serial killer, a scum-aligned player who wins on their own. Multiball just means more than one scum faction.

Trouble is if ash is a serial killer she’s playing even worse than if she’s town. Unless she’s a serial killer who can only kill during the day which... seems like a very poorly designed role.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Swowl on January 19, 2019, 05:11:24 pm
So, here’s what I don’t get... Why did Ashersky kill mcmc when she did? Especially when she didn’t think she was scum? It’s seems pretty anti-town to choose the only marginally largest wagon with a full day left to talk before DL and shoot before letting her claim or allowing more votes to coalesce before the kill. Especially if she really thought Glooble was more scummy.

I’m not trying to be dense (I’m still kinda new at this), so it would help if someone could explain to me how that shot at this time helps town.

Hetnys, in the books, is Radchaii but is also not regally on the right side of things and end up being held hostage by Breq (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancillary_Sword).

I am assuming there is a modifier on ashes role where “they have to shoot or X happens”.... prettty much bc i agree with you that thier actions don’t make a ton of sense as skum. Draws way too much attention.

Unvote
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Swowl on January 19, 2019, 05:25:31 pm
Actually to that point I guess it could be a negative modifier as skum like LL pointes our. I need to catch up since the shot.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: faust on January 19, 2019, 05:56:16 pm
Day 1 Final Vote Count

Robz888 (1): Haddock
hypercube (1): Robz888
DatSwan (1): Awaclus
ashersky (5): DatSwan, WestCoastDidds, Glooble, LaLight, jotheonah
jotheonah (2): mail-mi, 2.71828.....
2.71828..... (1): hypercube

Not Voting (2): ashersky, SpaceAnemone

With 13 alive, it took 7 to lynch.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: mail-mi on January 19, 2019, 05:58:38 pm
Oh no
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Night 1)
Post by: faust on January 19, 2019, 06:01:37 pm
ashersky has been lynched. She did not die. Day 1 ends now. Night 1 starts and lasts at least until January 21, 2019, 06:00:00 pm. Night actions are due within 48 hours.

Thread locked!
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: faust on January 22, 2019, 01:05:24 am
Tensions were running high on Athoek Statin after the attack on Mercy of Kalr. Breq knew she would have to step very carefully here, and now that she was a fleet captain without a ship, her authority was eroded before she even started her mission.

The next morning, a message came through all of the official channels: jotheonah is an enemy of the Radch! Any sighting of her is to be reported immediately.


Noone died tonight. jotheonah takes one vote less to lynch today.

Day 2 begins!

Vote Count 2.0

Not Voting (13): SpaceAnemone, jotheonah, LaLight, DatSwan, mail-mi, Awaclus, 2.71828....., WestCoastDidds, Robz888, hypercube, ashersky, Galzria, Glooble

WIth 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch. Day 1 ends on January 29, 2019, 01:00:00 am.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: ashersky on January 22, 2019, 01:14:54 am
All things considered, not bad.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: ashersky on January 22, 2019, 01:17:51 am
Also, no shot today.

Im also available to actually interact with folks regarding day 1, unless another quick lynch is planned?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: ashersky on January 22, 2019, 01:18:54 am
(Yes, that’s disingenuous of me to say. I know.)
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: 2.71828..... on January 22, 2019, 01:20:09 am
I don't plan on quick lynching anyone today.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: 2.71828..... on January 22, 2019, 01:22:41 am
Also, looking on the ashersky wagon for scum today. It was such an easy place for scum to throw a vote down
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: ashersky on January 22, 2019, 01:24:24 am
This was the big plan?

Never said it was a big plan previous to executing it. (Pun intended.)

I think this and many other posts focused on my “plan” are a big reason there is so much perceived negative about what I did. Everyone’s expectations are their own. I didn’t even try to raise them at all.

I do hope we can just end the whole ash has to have a plan trope.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: ashersky on January 22, 2019, 01:27:24 am
As for why my plan for using my power wasn’t bad...

I don’t think I explained well before. I always planned on largest wagon near day’s end to give town a second Lynch. I thought about midday, but the day never did get going so more data points made sense to me.

My shot was crowdsourced but without the crowd knowing, so they couldn’t exert any purposeful influence. That’s what I wanted.

You can say that’s an easy cover for a scum shot, but it is also pretty terrible for me if I’m third party. Way more important targets, for one.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: 2.71828..... on January 22, 2019, 01:36:57 am
Also, I assume stuff happened last night (no NK, jotheonah is hated, and that's just the public information). Anyone want to share with the group or is this going to be another RMM where it is partial claims until D4 or so before we mass claim?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: 2.71828..... on January 22, 2019, 01:42:42 am
Also, thinking more about ashersky and what we know about his role: being forced to publicly shoot someone is just so bad for scum. Being forced to publicly shoot someone makes for an interesting position for town. I am fairly confident that Ash is town, not lynching today.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: LaLight on January 22, 2019, 02:07:23 am
Also, thinking more about ashersky and what we know about his role: being forced to publicly shoot someone is just so bad for scum. Being forced to publicly shoot someone makes for an interesting position for town. I am fairly confident that Ash is town, not lynching today.

How do you know he was being forced?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: LaLight on January 22, 2019, 02:07:45 am
in other words, I am here, this neverending LyLo ended and I am willing to participate
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: LaLight on January 22, 2019, 02:08:43 am
let's say, scum are given 1-shot dayvig. They can either be silent about it, keep it to themselves and try to use it in LyLo, or they can use it D1 to get towncred
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: LaLight on January 22, 2019, 02:09:06 am
I will also reread today, I'll try
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: 2.71828..... on January 22, 2019, 02:11:07 am
"forced" as in if you are going to use the shot you have to do it publicly.  And we all know that it is anti-town to have a PR and not use it.

Technically, he probably could have just not shot. I don't know
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: LaLight on January 22, 2019, 02:19:30 am
"forced" as in if you are going to use the shot you have to do it publicly.  And we all know that it is anti-town to have a PR and not use it.

Technically, he probably could have just not shot. I don't know

What if he is not forced to do it in thread? He does it silently in the QT and then types anything in-thread and that's it
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: 2.71828..... on January 22, 2019, 02:32:06 am
"forced" as in if you are going to use the shot you have to do it publicly.  And we all know that it is anti-town to have a PR and not use it.

Technically, he probably could have just not shot. I don't know

What if he is not forced to do it in thread? He does it silently in the QT and then types anything in-thread and that's it

That seems like a stretch
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: LaLight on January 22, 2019, 02:40:14 am
"forced" as in if you are going to use the shot you have to do it publicly.  And we all know that it is anti-town to have a PR and not use it.

Technically, he probably could have just not shot. I don't know

What if he is not forced to do it in thread? He does it silently in the QT and then types anything in-thread and that's it

That seems like a stretch

yeah, I am just thinking of possibilities
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Awaclus on January 22, 2019, 03:21:37 am
"forced" as in if you are going to use the shot you have to do it publicly.  And we all know that it is anti-town to have a PR and not use it.

Technically, he probably could have just not shot. I don't know

What if he is not forced to do it in thread? He does it silently in the QT and then types anything in-thread and that's it

That seems like a stretch

He could also do it silently in the QT and not even have to type anything in-thread. We don't know for sure if him posting the dayvig command in the thread even did anything at all.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: ashersky on January 22, 2019, 03:39:35 am
let's say, scum are given 1-shot dayvig. They can either be silent about it, keep it to themselves and try to use it in LyLo, or they can use it D1 to get towncred

Scum with a free day kill definitely use it to win, a la double lynch in Bankers. It would be terrible usage to just kill someone on D1.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Swowl on January 22, 2019, 05:38:09 am
Also, no shot today.

Im also available to actually interact with folks regarding day 1, unless another quick lynch is planned?

why did you have to shoot on day one?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Swowl on January 22, 2019, 05:39:03 am
previous is an assumptions that you "had to" based on your previous post
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Swowl on January 22, 2019, 05:41:37 am
Also, thinking more about ashersky and what we know about his role: being forced to publicly shoot someone is just so bad for scum. Being forced to publicly shoot someone makes for an interesting position for town. I am fairly confident that Ash is town, not lynching today.

Why? this is an issue that will be brought up throughout the game and used against town the whole time. it doesn't matter if they are town or skum to a sense at this point.... best case scenario what- they have another shot to fire? they can hide that as skum, get lucky as town, or be lying all together. There is def value in lynching ash today, you dismissing is asinine.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Swowl on January 22, 2019, 05:42:46 am
"forced" as in if you are going to use the shot you have to do it publicly.  And we all know that it is anti-town to have a PR and not use it.

Technically, he probably could have just not shot. I don't know

What if he is not forced to do it in thread? He does it silently in the QT and then types anything in-thread and that's it

That seems like a stretch

He could also do it silently in the QT and not even have to type anything in-thread. We don't know for sure if him posting the dayvig command in the thread even did anything at all.

he could also not do it silently in QT
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Swowl on January 22, 2019, 05:48:10 am
"forced" as in if you are going to use the shot you have to do it publicly.  And we all know that it is anti-town to have a PR and not use it.

Technically, he probably could have just not shot. I don't know

What if he is not forced to do it in thread? He does it silently in the QT and then types anything in-thread and that's it

That seems like a stretch

How is that a stretch? "You have a day vig. You must post it publicly for it to take effect" combine that with ash supposedly feeling the need to shoot and then living through a lynch.. that kind of screams "Hey I am faust and I made this game" to me.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Haddock on January 22, 2019, 05:50:11 am
Here's a post I attempted to make while I was reading up the other day.  By the time I pressed post the thread was locked - I didn't know cos I was only halfway through the reread:

"OK so I'm wAY not caught up yet. And am also fairly drunk. However.

Immediate thoughts so far.

Nope I'm just trying to create conversation. I know why I'm voting for him (the main reason is wagon placement as explained) but I'm wondering why e is voting for him

A better way to create conversation would be to explain why you aren't scum.
Jesus christ
vote: awaclus

I am afraid of people voting for me for very pro-town reasons which will become clear if the wagon on me reaches that point.

There's some lexical ambiguity here. Are you saying you are afraid for reasons which will become clear or people are voting for you for reasons that will become clear?

It’s also a very nothing statement, especially in RMM. I mean, voting for a town PR is bad, so we can all say the same thing. Seems like an empty chaff discharge to me.
Strongly disagree. I read this as a clear indication that her role is something to do with stuff-happening-linked-to-how-many-votes-she-has. Which is loosely a very soft claim. Which we might decide is a bad play. But is definitely a vaguely towny thing to do.


Also, for the record, hating on ashersky plans is just a hipster contrarianism thing to do. As Awaclus points out subconsciously, the efficacy of ashersky plans notwithstanding, the airing of, discussion of, and sometimes demolishing of ashersky plans is always pro-town. And generally they are pro-town regardless of my own alignment.

If you want to complain about ashersky plans, the correct way is to say it has zero bearing on my alignment so I deserve no town points for them. Unfortunately, I often do get scum points if I don’t have one, so partly this is all your fault.

Separate to this, using waiting for the plan as an excuse to not otherwise engage is not an acceptable action.

One could argue if your plans are generally Pro-Town regardless of alignment, then it is skummy to make town wait to hear said plan.

Just saying - you know a plan is going to have an effect on the skum hunting (inevitable and NAI)... but withholding it after stating it exists doesn't really make sense. It is still going to have the unwanted effect of dialing back skum hunting, while simultaneously lessening the amount of time we all have to discuss the plan prior to the day ending.

In the few games I have played with you, I def give you the credit for being a crafty minx and all, but this doesn't really make a ton of sense.
And then back that up with the girl (doing Gooble's thing) bringing it up in the first place, followed by being the one accusing people of stalling... kind of reeks of skum sauce.


Vote: Ashes
Reading this I felt that you were conflating the discussion of ash's claim that she has a plan with discussion of the actual plan itself. Whether or not it exists. And it felt intentional. And either dumb or scummy. But I can't articulate what I mean very well right now. Hopefully it's clear.

Swan: I think “not wanting to lynch x” and “not wanting to lynch x D1” are very different prospects. I don’t think the occasional day 1 pass compromises the integrity of the game. It’s similar (in terms of the affect on the game) to holding off on a d1 lynch of a very scummy player who claimed a PR. You can always lynch them the next day.

Anyway, vote: ashersky. Swan’s making sense here and ash’s response really rubbed me the wrong way.

PS: i’ll hammer Glooble if it comes to it, fwiw.
This is hedgey af.

I hate the wagon on Glooble, shame on all of you. For one thing, I just don't like to lynch new and returning players Day 1 unless there's a good reason (sends the wrong message!). But anyway it makes perfect sense for Glooble, who doesn't know ash plans are a typical thing, to really focus on this, as any alignment.

Alright, that’s fair.

vote: mcmc because one post in 3+ days seems out of character

Were all the votes on Glooble just because of his attitude to Ash's plan, though? Yours wasn't very well-explained, and just singled him out as the most productive place your vote could be, which isn't very enlightening for the rest of us. hyper's vote is the one that appeared to be explicitly because Glooble was promoting stalling while waiting for Ash. LL's was totally unexplained. So I'm not sure quite what your "that's fair" comment is agreeing with in Robz's statement.

I also don't feel the hyper wagon, because I approve of setup-reading, and think it's something an analytical player is quite likely to do. Am I right in remembering that hyper leans that sort of way?

I think a pressure vote on mcmc isn't a terrible thing right now. Vote: mcmc

Sorry, Space, I was in a hurry and not terribly inspired, but didn't want to keep not having a vote anywhere.  You are correct that it was not very helpful.

I voted for Glooble because in the Mail-mi, Hyper, Joth, Glooble conversations he was coming off to me as the most defensive. The plan or not thing wasn't terribly interesting, although I agree with DatSwan that announcing a plan but not presenting one is a rather distracting move and in light of how much time we spent talking about it for naught, that seems right. So, Asher isn't looking so good in my book even if she always does this. (As you correctly point out, I don't have a lot of experience with her)

As for why I changed my vote from Robz's comment, I had sympathy for the we shouldn't recruit players to return and then lynch them for their trouble right out of the gate. Although in fairness, the vote was more for seeing how he responds to pressure than it was about a lynch. (The answer to that is that I find him defensive, but not flailing.)

I am still of the opinion that Mcmc is skeevy for just not playing at all. And if she's not scum, I am quite certain that at the very least, she will not be missed.

Oh yeah....the 4 am (3 am for me) Saturday deadline. I am most definitely not around at that time. So, perhaps we think of Friday as the deadline for practical purposes. Or, I will at least.

DatSwan, how has Australia been? When will you get on the monster flight home and be out of commission for many hours?
This is the last post I've got to so far and I haven't yet processed it.  There's a lot going on there. Fairly certain I'll have things to say about this post in particular tomorrow."



Since that post I did some catching up overnight and had the following more thoughts:
"
I hate the wagon on Glooble, shame on all of you. For one thing, I just don't like to lynch new and returning players Day 1 unless there's a good reason (sends the wrong message!). But anyway it makes perfect sense for Glooble, who doesn't know ash plans are a typical thing, to really focus on this, as any alignment.

Alright, that’s fair.

vote: mcmc because one post in 3+ days seems out of character

Were all the votes on Glooble just because of his attitude to Ash's plan, though? Yours wasn't very well-explained, and just singled him out as the most productive place your vote could be, which isn't very enlightening for the rest of us. hyper's vote is the one that appeared to be explicitly because Glooble was promoting stalling while waiting for Ash. LL's was totally unexplained. So I'm not sure quite what your "that's fair" comment is agreeing with in Robz's statement.

I also don't feel the hyper wagon, because I approve of setup-reading, and think it's something an analytical player is quite likely to do. Am I right in remembering that hyper leans that sort of way?

I think a pressure vote on mcmc isn't a terrible thing right now. Vote: mcmc

Sorry, Space, I was in a hurry and not terribly inspired, but didn't want to keep not having a vote anywhere. You are correct that it was not very helpful.

I voted for Glooble because in the Mail-mi, Hyper, Joth, Glooble conversations he was coming off to me as the most defensive. The plan or not thing wasn't terribly interesting, although I agree with DatSwan that announcing a plan but not presenting one is a rather distracting move and in light of how much time we spent talking about it for naught, that seems right. So, Asher isn't looking so good in my book even if she always does this. (As you correctly point out, I don't have a lot of experience with her)

As for why I changed my vote from Robz's comment, I had sympathy for the we shouldn't recruit players to return and then lynch them for their trouble right out of the gate. Although in fairness, the vote was more for seeing how he responds to pressure than it was about a lynch. (The answer to that is that I find him defensive, but not flailing.)

I am still of the opinion that Mcmc is skeevy for just not playing at all. And if she's not scum, I am quite certain that at the very least, she will not be missed.

Oh yeah....the 4 am (3 am for me) Saturday deadline. I am most definitely not around at that time. So, perhaps we think of Friday as the deadline for practical purposes. Or, I will at least.

DatSwan, how has Australia been? When will you get on the monster flight home and be out of commission for many hours?
This is the last post I've got to so far and I haven't yet processed it. There's a lot going on there. Fairly certain I'll have things to say about this post in particular tomorrow.


Yeah I disagree with a lot of stuff in this post. I haven't had defensive vibes off Glooble at all, and this feels like throwing shade for no good reason.
I also completely disagree with the comment about ash's plan. The claim being made is that ash announcing a plan induces discussion, which is generally protown. Whether or not you agree with that thesis, WestCoastDidds is completely missing the point here.


Quote from mail-mi:
"1. SpaceAnemone - is doing regular SpaceAnemone things, from what I remember. Slight town read.
2. jotheonah - Still seems a little too flippant. Scum read
3. LaLight - Um... don't remember anything in particular right now, null read
4. DatSwan - same as above, though I suppose if everyone decided to sheep Awaclus I could join
5. mail-mi - is me
6. Awaclus - is Awaclus. As always, slight scum read
7. 2.71828..... - seems to be good. Wouldn't prefer to lynch today
8. WestCoastDidds - seems townie to me, wouldn't prefer to lynch
9. Robz888 - is in robz's d1 laze. Eh, null read
10. hypercube - preferred lynch
11. mcmcsalot - lurking, but I agree with e's and ash's posts though. Less sure about lynching him
12. ashersky - null read
13. Galzria - Lurking, but is a vet. Would also lynch him, probably over mcmc
14. Glooble - want to give him a d1 pass, but if everyone wants to lynch him I will"

This is a good readslist, except the read on Glooble seems super hedgey. And I'm townreading Glooble.
ohterwise I largely agree.

Ah except on hypercube. hypercube reads towny to me. Also I feel like the case on jotheonah is stronger than just "too flippant". More on that later.


Awaclus:
"Quote from: mcmcsalot on January 17, 2019, 10:22:09 pm
whats the swan case? he feels less swany this game but not sure what that means alignment wise

What isn't the swan case?"

Guh vote: Awaclus


jotheonah:
"I’m going to go ahead and say it: I strongly dislike the cube wagon. Everything about it feels scummy and bad. I’m going to move my vote to vote: mcmc. Not because of lurking, because of the posting she’s done since she stopped lurking.

I think describing the hypercube wagon as stalled while hypercube was the leading wagon, after saying she just caught up, is a scumslip. Someone who just caught up wouldn’t make that mistake. Someone who was reading along and not posting and decided to make an appearance when the heat started getting on them might.

I know that when I’m scum it’s hard to get myself to actually reread since I’m not actually looking for information.

Even if the mistake isn’t a scum slip, “sorry I’ve been lurking, I’m going to reread and conclude that the best lynch happens to also be the person with the most votes on her already” doesn’t look great on its own."
This is one of the towniest posts jotheonah has made, though I disagree with the central point re mcmc. "Just caught up" might well mean "I am making this post as I am partway through catching up.". That's how I catch up, anyway. Often make posts while halfway through a read-up.



Oh and then mcmc dies, jeez fine. Well I was right about jotheonah being wrong, at least.


And then end of day. OK..."
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Haddock on January 22, 2019, 05:52:32 am
Then I had one more thought which I kept note of to be posted once I could post:

"OK so I wasn't able to compile jotheonah quotes while the thread was locked. But please everyone read through jotheonah and then come back and recognise that she's been scummayyyyy.

She has been very twitchy and defensive, hugely OMGUSsy, and not particularly contributive. Also has some reads that I think are really ugly, throwing shade at towny folks for not-good reasons."

vote: jotheonah

And now to today's business.

Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Glooble on January 22, 2019, 05:53:49 am
The lack of a night kill makes ash look worse to me. Not getting a night kill the night they used it would be a way to balance giving scum a day shot.

Can we talk about the fact that five people had 7 votes? Ash, we’re you also secretly hated Day 1? If someone on the ash wagon has a secret double or triple vote I guess that would explain it as well.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: LaLight on January 22, 2019, 05:56:23 am
The lack of a night kill makes ash look worse to me. Not getting a night kill the night they used it would be a way to balance giving scum a day shot.

Can we talk about the fact that five people had 7 votes? Ash, we’re you also secretly hated Day 1? If someone on the ash wagon has a secret double or triple vote I guess that would explain it as well.

We had a plurality lynch, we didn't have 7 votes
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Swowl on January 22, 2019, 05:59:18 am
The lack of a night kill makes ash look worse to me. Not getting a night kill the night they used it would be a way to balance giving scum a day shot.

Can we talk about the fact that five people had 7 votes? Ash, we’re you also secretly hated Day 1? If someone on the ash wagon has a secret double or triple vote I guess that would explain it as well.

We had a plurality lynch, we didn't have 7 votes

? what the day ended a more than a day ahead of schedule am I wrong?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Haddock on January 22, 2019, 06:00:22 am
The lack of a night kill makes ash look worse to me. Not getting a night kill the night they used it would be a way to balance giving scum a day shot.

Can we talk about the fact that five people had 7 votes? Ash, we’re you also secretly hated Day 1? If someone on the ash wagon has a secret double or triple vote I guess that would explain it as well.
I think trying to WIFOM the setup is a bad idea.  That's re ash's power and the NK.

The 5 people having 7 votes thing is worth discussing, I think it makes people on the wagon scummier.

The lack of a night kill makes ash look worse to me. Not getting a night kill the night they used it would be a way to balance giving scum a day shot.

Can we talk about the fact that five people had 7 votes? Ash, we’re you also secretly hated Day 1? If someone on the ash wagon has a secret double or triple vote I guess that would explain it as well.

We had a plurality lynch, we didn't have 7 votes

We were 2 days before deadline.  It wasn't a plurality lynch.



I think ash's use of power is null-to-very-slightly-town.   As in, the behaviour itself was moderately-strongly-towny, but because it's ash and ash is capable of all sorts of things as scum, it's only ever-so-slightly-towny.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Swowl on January 22, 2019, 06:03:56 am
A quick move was all it took, and the ship carrying the Lord of the Radch's emissary went up in flames.

mcmcsalot has been killed! She was Mercy of Kalr, the Radch-aligned Fixed Modified Multi-Motion Dectector!

Haddock replaces Galzria! D1 deadline is extended by 24 hours.


Vote Count 1.5

Robz888 (1): Haddock
hypercube (1): Robz888
DatSwan (1): Awaclus
ashersky (2): DatSwan, jotheonah
jotheonah (2): LaLight, 2.71828.....
Haddock (2): mail-mi, WestCoastDidds

Not Voting (4): ashersky, SpaceAnemone, hypercube, Glooble

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch. Day 1 ends on January 21, 2019, 04:00:00 am.
That is the end of day vote count stating that day ends on the 21st. It ended prior to that. 
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: LaLight on January 22, 2019, 06:08:17 am
The lack of a night kill makes ash look worse to me. Not getting a night kill the night they used it would be a way to balance giving scum a day shot.

Can we talk about the fact that five people had 7 votes? Ash, we’re you also secretly hated Day 1? If someone on the ash wagon has a secret double or triple vote I guess that would explain it as well.

We had a plurality lynch, we didn't have 7 votes

? what the day ended a more than a day ahead of schedule am I wrong?

what.

ok, i will return when I reread, wtf
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Glooble on January 22, 2019, 06:18:26 am
Is multi-voter more often a scum power or a town power? Of course with a 2-vote discrepancy we could have one of each.

If joth is a scum with 2 votes and ash is town, joth being the final vote on the wagon makes sense. Drop the hammer before she can defend herself.

On the other hand, Datswan who cast the initial vote tried to unvote but too late.Three possibilities stick out to me- Datswan is the double-voter, is scum, knew the lynch had already gone through and jumped off the wagon to give herself cover, Datswan is the double-voter, is town, hopped off the wagon when it became L-1, but didn’t know about the second double vote ( or ash being hated) or three DatSwan has no idea about the voting shenanigans and just unvoted for the reasons she stated.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Glooble on January 22, 2019, 06:26:48 am
One more thought- is it fair to assume the person with the extra botebknow they have an extra vote? A double voter who wasn’t told their vote counts twice sounds like it would qualify as a “bastard” role, yes?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: 2.71828..... on January 22, 2019, 07:03:20 am
Manipulation of votes is like 99% a scum power, and yeah, people who are able to manipulate votes will be told they are manipulating votes or else it would be bastard. That being said, person X may manipulate person Y's vote without person Y knowing and that would be fine. (All opinions of course)
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: 2.71828..... on January 22, 2019, 07:06:22 am
Also, Datswan unvoting feels very town to me,

There is also the chance that the vig shot is a trade off for being hated.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: 2.71828..... on January 22, 2019, 07:07:18 am
Also, Datswan unvoting feels very town to me,

At the end of D1, that is.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on January 22, 2019, 07:18:48 am
A couple things.

1) we kind of breezed past ash’s flavor claim, but isn’t Hetnys a bad guy? Hetnys is Breq’s subordinate and goes turncoat to work for Aanander.

2) I don’t think we’re dealing with a double vote. I think we’re dealing with ash being hated (or one of each). So ash has at least three powers: daykill, lynchproof, and hated. You know who. Gets big piles of powers? A serial killer.

3) I don’t want to force anyone to claim, but my power could help explain the lack of a nightkill iff LaLight is bulletproof or was targeted with protection.

4) FYI my hatedness today is not part of my role. So it has been inflicted on me. Not super-surprising since apparently I have “today’s mislynch” written all over me.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: ashersky on January 22, 2019, 07:22:21 am
Also, no shot today.

Im also available to actually interact with folks regarding day 1, unless another quick lynch is planned?

why did you have to shoot on day one?

Because I felt there was a very good chance that I could die N1 (see every game since I returned from my long hiatus).

It was not compulsory (as in the role modifier).
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: ashersky on January 22, 2019, 07:23:31 am
Also, nice speculation by all on the odd wagon size (no sarcasm here).  But I took only 5 votes to lynch.

As for why I didn't die -- no idea.  Assuming someone protected me from the NK as I believe I'm scum's top NK priority.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: ashersky on January 22, 2019, 07:24:10 am
More to the point, why didn't I die when I was lynched?  That was a big surprise to me. 

I actually think it might have had something to do with shooting mcmc?  He said some cryptic stuff he couldn't explain before the flip.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on January 22, 2019, 07:24:52 am
Ironic that ash keeps talking about giving the town an extra lynch day 1 (as if that’s protown) But she has in fact denied us a day one lynch by not dying.

I’m tempted to ask ash to fullclaim. I’m also tempted to go ahead and try to finish what we started day one.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: ashersky on January 22, 2019, 07:25:19 am
A quick move was all it took, and the ship carrying the Lord of the Radch's emissary went up in flames.

mcmcsalot has been killed! She was Mercy of Kalr, the Radch-aligned Fixed Modified Multi-Motion Dectector!

Haddock replaces Galzria! D1 deadline is extended by 24 hours.


Vote Count 1.5

Robz888 (1): Haddock
hypercube (1): Robz888
DatSwan (1): Awaclus
ashersky (2): DatSwan, jotheonah
jotheonah (2): LaLight, 2.71828.....
Haddock (2): mail-mi, WestCoastDidds

Not Voting (4): ashersky, SpaceAnemone, hypercube, Glooble

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch. Day 1 ends on January 21, 2019, 04:00:00 am.

Fixed, modified.  What do we think those mean in the context of faust?  Has he defined them in his setup thread?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on January 22, 2019, 07:26:48 am
Good morning, folks!

Hi Haddock....in your giant post you quoted me and said that in regard to plan discussions that I had completely missed the point. So, uhm, yeah....that is accurate. I’m newish to the game (this is my 5th game) and something’s that are obvious to others take me awhile to work out. I think I miss the point of posts quite a bit at first, but improve with time....or at least that is my hope.

I am still confused about how Asher got lynched with only 5 votes so far from the deadline. Is there a power that can end the day, and then it’s the plurality vote? Is that more likely than two people having an extra vote? And did Asher’s shot give her immunity?

Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: ashersky on January 22, 2019, 07:28:50 am
Ironic that ash keeps talking about giving the town an extra lynch day 1 (as if that’s protown) But she has in fact denied us a day one lynch by not dying.

I’m tempted to ask ash to fullclaim. I’m also tempted to go ahead and try to finish what we started day one.

Well, I didn't plan on me being the extra lynch, nor did I know I wouldn't die.

The extra lynch should have been whomever was #2 on the lynch list -- so one of the folks with two votes.  Or it looks like the new Galzria would have been coming after you.

Regardless of my not dying, we did have two "lynches" on D1.  We just didn't get two flips.

As for full claiming, not a good idea.  Remaining number of shots and when/how I can use them is what scum wants to know.  Scum also wants to lynch me.

I've claimed what needs to be known (through words or actions).  Hetnys, sometimes dayvig, sometimes hated.  Everything else is not related to my role (not dying from lynch, surviving last night).
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on January 22, 2019, 07:29:12 am
Good morning, folks!

Hi Haddock....in your giant post you quoted me and said that in regard to plan discussions that I had completely missed the point. So, uhm, yeah....that is accurate. I’m newish to the game (this is my 5th game) and something’s that are obvious to others take me awhile to work out. I think I miss the point of posts quite a bit at first, but improve with time....or at least that is my hope.

I am still confused about how Asher got lynched with only 5 votes so far from the deadline. Is there a power that can end the day, and then it’s the plurality vote? Is that more likely than two people having an extra vote? And did Asher’s shot give her immunity?

There is a power called Governor that ends the day, though I’ve never seen it combined with a plurality lynch. Usually it just causes a no lynch. A power like that seems very very strong, basically dayvig and end the day but you can only target the leading wagon. I can maybe see it as a once per game.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: ashersky on January 22, 2019, 07:29:43 am
Good morning, folks!

Hi Haddock....in your giant post you quoted me and said that in regard to plan discussions that I had completely missed the point. So, uhm, yeah....that is accurate. I’m newish to the game (this is my 5th game) and something’s that are obvious to others take me awhile to work out. I think I miss the point of posts quite a bit at first, but improve with time....or at least that is my hope.

I am still confused about how Asher got lynched with only 5 votes so far from the deadline. Is there a power that can end the day, and then it’s the plurality vote? Is that more likely than two people having an extra vote? And did Asher’s shot give her immunity?

You may have missed it, but I claimed the 5 vote lynch part.  I two took less votes to lynch than normal.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on January 22, 2019, 07:30:46 am
Ironic that ash keeps talking about giving the town an extra lynch day 1 (as if that’s protown) But she has in fact denied us a day one lynch by not dying.

I’m tempted to ask ash to fullclaim. I’m also tempted to go ahead and try to finish what we started day one.

Well, I didn't plan on me being the extra lynch, nor did I know I wouldn't die.

The extra lynch should have been whomever was #2 on the lynch list -- so one of the folks with two votes.  Or it looks like the new Galzria would have been coming after you.

Regardless of my not dying, we did have two "lynches" on D1.  We just didn't get two flips.

As for full claiming, not a good idea.  Remaining number of shots and when/how I can use them is what scum wants to know.  Scum also wants to lynch me.

I've claimed what needs to be known (through words or actions).  Hetnys, sometimes dayvig, sometimes hated.  Everything else is not related to my role (not dying from lynch, surviving last night).

Cool, this is exactly what I expected a serial killer to say.

vote: Ash

Good enough for yesterday, good enough for today.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on January 22, 2019, 07:32:20 am
Ask yourself which is more likely, that ash just happened to fall victim to multiple layers of weirdness, or that at least some of that weirdness is part of a complicated SK role and Ash is lying about her defensive ability because it’s scummy.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: ashersky on January 22, 2019, 07:33:37 am
I wish I was an SK here.  MVP win last time out.

It's been a long time since I've played a game with joth, I think.  What I don't remember is if shutdown-ignore everything-confirmation bias joth is scum!joth or town!joth.

As most would know, I'm always happy to get lynched just to say I told you so.  My green flip just proves you wrong and proves me right.

vote: ash
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: ashersky on January 22, 2019, 07:34:16 am
Ask yourself which is more likely, that ash just happened to fall victim to multiple layers of weirdness, or that at least some of that weirdness is part of a complicated SK role and Ash is lying about her defensive ability because it’s scummy.

scumslip
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: 2.71828..... on January 22, 2019, 07:34:36 am
Calm down guys.

Ashersky is town
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on January 22, 2019, 07:35:21 am
You may have missed it, but I claimed the 5 vote lynch part.  I two took less votes to lynch than normal.

Definitely missed it, thank you. That was part of your role? 2x hated?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: ashersky on January 22, 2019, 07:36:26 am
Ask yourself which is more likely, that ash just happened to fall victim to multiple layers of weirdness, or that at least some of that weirdness is part of a complicated SK role and Ash is lying about her defensive ability because it’s scummy.

scumslip

Let me explain.

You state clearly in here "multiple layers" of weirdness.  No one, not even joth, can argue against that point.

However, there is only one public layer of weirdness known to all -- surviving the lynch.  Any other layers of weirdness would be known only to the perpetrator of the weirdness, such as the scum team that shot me and saw that I survived.  After all, there is a lot of focus on my surviving by joth here.

So, joth, please, what other layers of weirdness can you share with us that no one else knows about?  (Hint: it's where you shot me last night and I didn't die.)
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: ashersky on January 22, 2019, 07:36:52 am
You may have missed it, but I claimed the 5 vote lynch part.  I two took less votes to lynch than normal.

Definitely missed it, thank you. That was part of your role? 2x hated?

Correct.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: 2.71828..... on January 22, 2019, 07:38:16 am
Also, ashersky, I don't think scum shot you last night because they assumed you would get lynched. You know, joth's "let's finish what we started yesterday" post.

I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't at least
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: 2.71828..... on January 22, 2019, 07:38:56 am
Also, speaking of that, vote: jotheonah
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on January 22, 2019, 07:40:58 am
Calm down guys.

Ashersky is town

I like the idea of calming down! The caught us unawares quick lynch when we thought we actually had a whole extra day has made me hesitant to vote at all. But I want to vote for Joth.

E, you say that with authority....how do you know she’s town?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: ashersky on January 22, 2019, 07:41:45 am
Also, ashersky, I don't think scum shot you last night because they assumed you would get lynched. You know, joth's "let's finish what we started yesterday" post.

I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't at least

I guess that's possible.  There's the "ash is an easy enough mislynch" angle.  Even if they actually think I'm 3rd Party, though, seems like it's in their best interest to take a possible non-them kill off the board.

Where's mail-mi?  That "oh no" post at day's end was funny.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on January 22, 2019, 07:43:03 am
You may have missed it, but I claimed the 5 vote lynch part.  I two took less votes to lynch than normal.

Definitely missed it, thank you. That was part of your role? 2x hated?

Correct.

Oof! That is accurate to Hetnys, though. She was kind of awful.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on January 22, 2019, 07:43:39 am
Ask yourself which is more likely, that ash just happened to fall victim to multiple layers of weirdness, or that at least some of that weirdness is part of a complicated SK role and Ash is lying about her defensive ability because it’s scummy.

scumslip

1. You didn’t die to the lynch
2. You got lynched with 5 votes instead of 7
(3. You had a dayvig and used it in a blatantly antitown way)

Let me explain.

You state clearly in here "multiple layers" of weirdness.  No one, not even joth, can argue against that point.

However, there is only one public layer of weirdness known to all -- surviving the lynch.  Any other layers of weirdness would be known only to the perpetrator of the weirdness, such as the scum team that shot me and saw that I survived.  After all, there is a lot of focus on my surviving by joth here.

So, joth, please, what other layers of weirdness can you share with us that no one else knows about?  (Hint: it's where you shot me last night and I didn't die.)
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: 2.71828..... on January 22, 2019, 07:44:47 am
Calm down guys.

Ashersky is town

I like the idea of calming down! The caught us unawares quick lynch when we thought we actually had a whole extra day has made me hesitant to vote at all. But I want to vote for Joth.

E, you say that with authority....how do you know she’s town?

As a part of my role I have a 1-shot cop. I used it on ashersky. I wanted to let it play out a bit longer, but ashersky self-voting kind of made me claim earlier than I wanted, but I didn't want my investigation to be for nothing with a quick lynch
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on January 22, 2019, 07:44:55 am
You may have missed it, but I claimed the 5 vote lynch part.  I two took less votes to lynch than normal.

Definitely missed it, thank you. That was part of your role? 2x hated?

Correct.

I also missed this. Why not claim it yesterday?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: ashersky on January 22, 2019, 07:45:04 am
It also makes me a liability the closer we get to the endgame, so I will definitely urge my lynch eventually (like, around when it takes four to lynch?).

Unless someone has a +Loved power to send my way.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on January 22, 2019, 07:46:15 am
unvote

I believe the cop claim here.

Unless Ash is a dayvigging lynchproof 2x hated Godfather serially killer, but hats a lot even for faust.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: ashersky on January 22, 2019, 07:46:38 am
You may have missed it, but I claimed the 5 vote lynch part.  I two took less votes to lynch than normal.

Definitely missed it, thank you. That was part of your role? 2x hated?

Correct.

I also missed this. Why not claim it yesterday?

To Awaclus you: why claim it?  No one else was claiming Hated/Loved, even after the discussion started up based on rule wording.  I didn't expect to get lynched, honestly, and I would have claimed if I was around when the votes came flying.

Also, I don't believe you.  I posted about this TWICE before your "multiple layers" scumslip.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: 2.71828..... on January 22, 2019, 07:46:49 am
Or we just lynch scum and not town then x2 hated doesn't come into play
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: ashersky on January 22, 2019, 07:47:08 am
unvote
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on January 22, 2019, 07:49:42 am
It's been a long time since I've played a game with joth, I think.  What I don't remember is if shutdown-ignore everything-confirmation bias joth is scum!joth or town!joth.

Also this is the opposite of shut down ignore everything confirmation bias. All the information Onhad was pointing to you being scum. Remember when you first took the big shot I hated it, but I thought it made you town. LaLight suggested SK and it seemed to me like the cleanest explanation of the facts.

But an SK doesn’t have a partner to fake a cop result to clear her, so now the facts have changed.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on January 22, 2019, 07:51:51 am
If all I accomplish today is to set up my new meta that flippant Joth is town Joth I’ll call it a win. I think a lot of people in this town are falling victim to the “she annoys me she must be scum” fallacy.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on January 22, 2019, 07:56:02 am
One more thought: don’t forget voluntary alignment changes are possible. So don’t treat Ash an IC on subsequent days.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: 2.71828..... on January 22, 2019, 07:57:36 am
I wouldn't call jotheonah's play flippant. But I understand how self analysis can be very different than external analysis.

I will throw together something that better describes why I am voting jotheonah later when I get the chance.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: ashersky on January 22, 2019, 07:59:44 am
Still waiting for an adequate explanation of your "multiple layers of weirdness" comment.  I saw you buried an answer in a misquote post, but "I didn't see you twice explained why you got lynched early" doesn't really cut it.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on January 22, 2019, 08:06:01 am
Still waiting for an adequate explanation of your "multiple layers of weirdness" comment.  I saw you buried an answer in a misquote post, but "I didn't see you twice explained why you got lynched early" doesn't really cut it.

Nonetheless that’s the answer. I woke up this Leong to more than a page of posts, read through them quickly, didn’t see those. So I thought you were claiming that you had no idea why you were lynched and also no idea why you didn’t die.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on January 22, 2019, 08:08:19 am
Also, nice speculation by all on the odd wagon size (no sarcasm here).  But I took only 5 votes to lynch.

As for why I didn't die -- no idea.  Assuming someone protected me from the NK as I believe I'm scum's top NK priority.

This claim is as clear as mud. You don’t say “it’s part of my role” you don’t say “I’m hated”, you say “I took 5 votes to lynch”

Which like... yeah, we know. It did not register as new information.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Haddock on January 22, 2019, 08:16:33 am
I'm still seeing scum!jotheonah here and it's not because she's annoying and/or flippant.  I haven't seen flippant at all really.

It's because she's OMGUSsy, hedgey, over defensive and twitchy. 

I mean, obviously I'm very happy to consider other lynches, but I'm happy where my vote is for now.  Noone else has really given me strong scumvibes.

I believe e's claim re ash being town.



I want to discuss this post:
A couple things.

1) we kind of breezed past ash’s flavor claim, but isn’t Hetnys a bad guy? Hetnys is Breq’s subordinate and goes turncoat to work for Aanander.

2) I don’t think we’re dealing with a double vote. I think we’re dealing with ash being hated (or one of each). So ash has at least three powers: daykill, lynchproof, and hated. You know who. Gets big piles of powers? A serial killer.

3) I don’t want to force anyone to claim, but my power could help explain the lack of a nightkill iff LaLight is bulletproof or was targeted with protection.

4) FYI my hatedness today is not part of my role. So it has been inflicted on me. Not super-surprising since apparently I have “today’s mislynch” written all over me.
1) fine, I don't remember the flavour.  WIFOMing flavour seems a bad idea though.

2) Strongly disagree.  Note in particular this post of e's:
There is also the chance that the vig shot is a trade off for being hated.
Which I agree entirely with.  You can't count hated as an "additional power", it would be totally normal to put a negative ability in to counterbalance a strong role.  It doesn't necessarily imply SK.  Indeed quite the opposite, it's hard enough to win as an SK, let alone a doubly-hated SK...


3) no comment.

4) Maybe I missed something from D1 but you made this comment when you had maybe 2 people who had mentioned you as a possible lynch, maybe 2 votes.  This kind of defensiveness just make you look scummier.



Also:

Good morning, folks!

Hi Haddock....in your giant post you quoted me and said that in regard to plan discussions that I had completely missed the point. So, uhm, yeah....that is accurate. I’m newish to the game (this is my 5th game) and something’s that are obvious to others take me awhile to work out. I think I miss the point of posts quite a bit at first, but improve with time....or at least that is my hope.

I am still confused about how Asher got lynched with only 5 votes so far from the deadline. Is there a power that can end the day, and then it’s the plurality vote? Is that more likely than two people having an extra vote? And did Asher’s shot give her immunity?

You may have missed it, but I claimed the 5 vote lynch part.  I two took less votes to lynch than normal.
Sorry ash but do you mind quoting where you originally claimed this?  I don't want to trawl the thread for it and I imagine you have a rough idea when you made that claim.




Finally:
Good morning, folks!

Hi Haddock....in your giant post you quoted me and said that in regard to plan discussions that I had completely missed the point. So, uhm, yeah....that is accurate. I’m newish to the game (this is my 5th game) and something’s that are obvious to others take me awhile to work out. I think I miss the point of posts quite a bit at first, but improve with time....or at least that is my hope.
Okidoke, sorry I didn't know that.  I'm also new to this particular game so wasn't aware that you're a new player.  In light of that I'm much more willing to interpret the original misunderstanding as honest-mistake rather than scummy-feigned-ignorance.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: hypercube on January 22, 2019, 08:42:10 am
I basically completely believe that Ash is town at this point, and I'm definitely leaning towards voting for joth for SK hunting etc..

One thing I wanted to point out is this post when Swan jumps off the Ash wagon:

So, here’s what I don’t get... Why did Ashersky kill mcmc when she did? Especially when she didn’t think she was scum? It’s seems pretty anti-town to choose the only marginally largest wagon with a full day left to talk before DL and shoot before letting her claim or allowing more votes to coalesce before the kill. Especially if she really thought Glooble was more scummy.

I’m not trying to be dense (I’m still kinda new at this), so it would help if someone could explain to me how that shot at this time helps town.

Hetnys, in the books, is Radchaii but is also not regally on the right side of things and end up being held hostage by Breq (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancillary_Sword).

I am assuming there is a modifier on ashes role where “they have to shoot or X happens”.... prettty much bc i agree with you that thier actions don’t make a ton of sense as skum. Draws way too much attention.

Unvote

It's weird to me since Swan is saying that she agrees with WCD that Ash's actions don't make sense as scum (which I agree with), but in the post that Swan is actually quoting WCD is making the case that Ash is scum. So, it reads to me like Swan was really looking for an excuse to jump off that wagon.

I'm not sure if that means anything (it seemed more important before Ash claimed double-hated), but I figured I'd point it out anyways.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on January 22, 2019, 08:54:04 am
Giant re-read post incoming:

Good idea! Vote: Awaclus

I always find RVS self-votes slightly scummy. It allows you to skip past the question of “do I RVS my partner or a townie”

I have a feeling, based on flavor, that alignment switching is not going to be voluntary. I suspect Aanander Mianani will have some kind of cult leader mechanic. Could be wrong of course.

Noone's alignment can change without their consent.

Another slight scum point. I think scum is more likely to know this aspect of the setup as they’re the ones who can make alignment-switches happen. I could be wrong on this, but I’m basing it on flavor.

Man, this is such a crappy wagon. Let's join a different one.

Vote: Galzria

Here Awaclus pops in to get us to stop talking about flavor and time zones and get back to RVS! Which is a little weird, but not especially scummy.

Actually, Vote: mail-mi

While it might sound like pronoun-omgus, I've just realised that I haven't been doing setup stuff at all, so characterizing me as having done so is weird. I've talked about the flavour, because it's something I like, and about timezones because it's something I'm generally conscious of as someone who's not on the American continent.

I haven't really begun posting my thoughts on how the game mechanics and real set-up stuff might go, because the stuff I've thought of doesn't really fit with a anything I'd see as a balanced game.

This was a good point by Space that still sort of holds up.

Vote: Jotheonah

This felt like pouncing on mail-mi for something that might very well be wrong but was not especially likely to come from scum. (Town needs no help tricking itself into mass claiming.)

I dislike this post from Robz for two reasons. One, I disagree with the premise, suggesting a mass claim is definitely a thing scum will do when they can get away with it, and two, she voted for me!

ah, a day 1 wagon on me. some things never change

vote: mail-mi

Mass claims on day one are always a bad idea.

You're probably right. I guess a better question would be, are there obvious flavor names that would be scum?

This is a two-punch scummy post from mail-mi. One, the "day 1 wagon on her" is 2 votes for unrelated reasons, so not really even much of a wagon at all. Two, the immediate back-down from the claim idea.

Vote: Jotheonah

This felt like pouncing on mail-mi for something that might very well be wrong but was not especially likely to come from scum. (Town needs no help tricking itself into mass claiming.)

When does scum ever actually do this? Scum doesn't need to pounce at this juncture. Scum just needs to wait for a good-looking town wagon and slide onboard.

Well, scum wants to look like they're.scumhunting.

vote: joth

vote: hypercube

This is exactly the position scum wants to be on the wagon. Voting for someone who already has votes, and turning a couple votes into an actual wagon

I know that didn't make much sense, I'm having a hard time putting my thoughts into words. I hope you (meaning the general populus) understands what I'm trying to say

This was part of my case on mail-mi yesterday. It’s an extremely weak case on hypercube and doesn’t make a ton of sense as town. But as a gambit to get me off her back by voting for the person who just voted for me, it makes a lot of sense.

Not quoting because it’s a bunch of posts, but LaLight’s day one entrance is kinda scummy. Especially this part:

ok then

should we just wagon two or more players that are the scummiest every day, so we will have a bit of extra info?

This is a very bad, hilariously bad suggestion given

“5. If the deadline is hit without a player reaching the majority of votes, the player that would take the least number of additional votes to lynch dies. If there is a tie, a town player dies before a non-town player. Otherwise, who dies is determined randomly.”

So LaLight’s suggestion is to queue up two lynches at the end of the day to make sure the town player dies. It’s actually so bad I don’t think it could come from scum. Town points for LL.

Looks like everyone has posted except ash, mcmc, and gala. Where y'all at?

Here is mail-mi changing the subject to something safe while everyone is talking about her and whether she might be scum.

Nope I'm just trying to create conversation. I know why I'm voting for him (the main reason is wagon placement as explained) but I'm wondering why e is voting for him

A better way to create conversation would be to explain why you aren't scum.

This is inane and maybe a little scummy.

Then there’s a long fight between mail-mi and Awaclus. Not sure what to make of it.

I think continuing to focus on mail-mi so much--something Joth is doing--is somewhat scummy. I've often seen mail-mi make himself into an easy target in games past, perhaps especially when town.

This feels like a partner stepping in to protect. Also notable that this is one of Robz’s very few posts so far all game.

1) im implying that making a wagon one vote larger is not neccisarilly always pro town (especially if your meta as skum is to love the bus).

2) Reading just fine. I also do NOT think  that you, malmi, or anyone has done anything to come off as towny this far.

3) You didn’t answer my question - instead you avoided it with a random omg is Vote. Another pro town thing tho I’m sure...

4) the last time i had this conversation with you you self hammered yourself for the town loss... so I’m just gonna drop this topic.

1) Making a wagon one vote larger is necessarily always pro town, unless the vote leads to a town lynch.

2) It doesn't matter what you think, it matters what mail-mi thinks about himself and what I think about myself.

3) I didn't answer your question because that was the second time you asked the exact same question and I already answered it in item 2.

4) That self-hammer was way better than having town give away valuable information before ultimately lynching me anyway.

More scummy Awaclus stuff.

Sidenote, there is so much voting for me happening day 1. Scum absolutely gave me hated because they knew I’d be the easiest mislynch, and it’s not twitchy or defensive of me to say so.

This is a long wall of post and I’m only halfway through my reread (#204), but I have to start my workday. So To Be Continued…

for now, vote: mail-mi

FoS: Awaclus, Robz888

No one else jumps out as super scummy.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: mail-mi on January 22, 2019, 09:03:59 am
Also, ashersky, I don't think scum shot you last night because they assumed you would get lynched. You know, joth's "let's finish what we started yesterday" post.

I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't at least

I guess that's possible.  There's the "ash is an easy enough mislynch" angle.  Even if they actually think I'm 3rd Party, though, seems like it's in their best interest to take a possible non-them kill off the board.

Where's mail-mi?  That "oh no" post at day's end was funny.

Was sleeping, is catching up
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Haddock on January 22, 2019, 09:07:52 am
That's actually not a bad mail-mi case.  I will consider.

Awaclus is being Awaclus, how much have you played with him before?  Nothing he's done so far is out of his nullzone.

As for Robz:

a) I don't like your linking Robz and mail-mi here, it's dangerously early to be suggesting partnerships.
b) I can't remember anything about Robz this game really, which suggests she's been actilurking.  So yes I could get behind that.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: mail-mi on January 22, 2019, 09:12:01 am
I'm on phone right now, so I'll respond to the case on me when I can.

Ash is town, I believe her and e. I don't really like joth's case on her and think it's kinda scummy. Welcome to the game Haddock!
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on January 22, 2019, 10:06:31 am
Rest of my day 1 re-read:

I hate the wagon on Glooble, shame on all of you. For one thing, I just don't like to lynch new and returning players Day 1 unless there's a good reason (sends the wrong message!). But anyway it makes perfect sense for Glooble, who doesn't know ash plans are a typical thing, to really focus on this, as any alignment.

Alright, that’s fair.

vote: mcmc because one post in 3+ days seems out of character

Worth noting that it's WCD who starts the mcmc wagon. And she starts it when there's a sea of actual reads and cases and wagons on the table, which she doesn't really address.

I hate the wagon on Glooble, shame on all of you. For one thing, I just don't like to lynch new and returning players Day 1 unless there's a good reason (sends the wrong message!). But anyway it makes perfect sense for Glooble, who doesn't know ash plans are a typical thing, to really focus on this, as any alignment.

Alright, that’s fair.

vote: mcmc because one post in 3+ days seems out of character

Were all the votes on Glooble just because of his attitude to Ash's plan, though? Yours wasn't very well-explained, and just singled him out as the most productive place your vote could be, which isn't very enlightening for the rest of us. hyper's vote is the one that appeared to be explicitly because Glooble was promoting stalling while waiting for Ash. LL's was totally unexplained. So I'm not sure quite what your "that's fair" comment is agreeing with in Robz's statement.

I also don't feel the hyper wagon, because I approve of setup-reading, and think it's something an analytical player is quite likely to do. Am I right in remembering that hyper leans that sort of way?

I think a pressure vote on mcmc isn't a terrible thing right now. Vote: mcmc

Then Space, immediately after. This vote feels towny to me actually.

On another note, Glooble is reading townier to me on re-read. I think all of her “scummy” plays are pretty easily explained as rusty town coming to a changed meta in a complicated game.

Also, for the record, hating on ashersky plans is just a hipster contrarianism thing to do. As Awaclus points out subconsciously, the efficacy of ashersky plans notwithstanding, the airing of, discussion of, and sometimes demolishing of ashersky plans is always pro-town. And generally they are pro-town regardless of my own alignment.

If you want to complain about ashersky plans, the correct way is to say it has zero bearing on my alignment so I deserve no town points for them. Unfortunately, I often do get scum points if I don’t have one, so partly this is all your fault.

Separate to this, using waiting for the plan as an excuse to not otherwise engage is not an acceptable action.


One could argue if your plans are generally Pro-Town regardless of alignment, then it is skummy to make town wait to hear said plan.

Just saying - you know a plan is going to have an effect on the skum hunting (inevitable and NAI)... but withholding it after stating it exists doesn't really make sense. It is still going to have the unwanted effect of dialing back skum hunting, while simultaneously lessening the amount of time we all have to discuss the plan prior to the day ending.

In the few games I have played with you, I def give you the credit for being a crafty minx and all, but this doesn't really make a ton of sense.
And then back that up with the girl (doing Gooble's thing) bringing it up in the first place, followed by being the one accusing people of stalling... kind of reeks of skum sauce.


Vote: Ashes


I know I’m really the pot calling the kettle black for FOSsing ash voters, but this is an interesting place to be on that wagon. DatSwan is (I think) the third ash voter, but after a lot of posts have passed since the first two. So the vote is more significant than it looks. 

The explanation for the vote feels like an excuse or a justification. Like the way you would preface a vote if you know a person’s likely to flip town. Scum points for Swan.

Swan: I think “not wanting to lynch x” and “not wanting to lynch x D1” are very different prospects. I don’t think the occasional day 1 pass compromises the integrity of the game. It’s similar (in terms of the affect on the game) to holding off on a d1 lynch of a very scummy player who claimed a PR. You can always lynch them the next day.

Anyway, vote: ashersky. Swan’s making sense here and ash’s response really rubbed me the wrong way.

PS: i’ll hammer Glooble if it comes to it, fwiw.

LOL and then I vote ash because “Swan’s making sense”. Well, I guess everything looks different in the light of a town investigative result.

I continue to get a slight scumread on WCD. She posts infrequently but her posts are lengthy, which could be indicative of newbie scum playing & posting very carefully. But it could also just be newbie town doing that. Her posts feel … strategic. idk. something to keep an eye on.

My problem with the mcmc lynch is that lynching a lurker tells us nothing. If she's scum that's fine, but if she's town, we have no wagons to analyze or anything like that.

I strongly disagree with this.

Firstly, it probably tells us something about what other roles are out there. This is more useful for town than for scum, because right now we (probably?) each only have one datapoint to go on to build up a framework of how the game works, and a second point is a 100% improvement. Less so for scum, because they probably already know each other's roles too.

Secondly, we already have wagons to look at, and flips on later days will let us look at people who're voting together or avoiding being on the same wagons. The only downside is that mcmc hasn't voted at all, which is just really bad town play from him. That hinders voting analysis whether or not we flip him now.

Thirdly, if mcmc is lurking this badly, we remove him from the game and leave more active players who give us better wagon analysis, more interactions and more gameplay. Scum isn't going to take him out for us if he's leaving himself as a big unknown, and he's really not a player town wants alive at lylo if he's not someone we can form opinions of... so if we don't have strong scumreads on active players, then mcmc is a great place for a good towny vote to go.

Glooble opposes mcmc lynch, says lurker lynch is low-info. Space’s reply feels weak to me. 1) knowing one role in a role madness game is actually not a lot of info, 2) lurker lynch wagons are not that useful because everyone can easily defend a policy vote without having to articulate a scum read 3) that would be fine if mcmc were an unknown entity, but we all know her meta and that she’s likely to become more active.

For some reason three people (WCD, cube, and mail-mi) show up to say how townie this slightly scummy post was.

How often does LAL actually hit scum though?

Basically never. Scum!mcmc (hate to say it) doesn't lurk this hard

This is correct. When momsalon rolls scum, he is into the game.

I know ash is town, but this is what drives me crazy about the mcmc shot. Ash herself all but says mcmc is a bad lynch, not likely to flip scum. Letting the town direct your vig shot without telling them they’re directing it is bad enough, but doing it when you have a townread on the person you’re shooting seems blantantly antitown. I do not regret my votes on ash.

Then mcmc shows up and I jump on her wagon. I am the only person on that wagon who actually expressed a scumread on mcmc based on her play. (and then Glooble sheeps me)

LaLight lurked pretty hard day 1. I don’t think it’s a scumtell but I think it’s worth mentioning.

One thing I've noticed about the game thus far is that people are very willing to defend joth. mail-mi and mcmc use my vote for joth as justification for their votes on me; E moves directly from joth to me after I vote for joth and then her case against me derails the joth wagon for good. I think this points towards joth being town? Certainly I'd think that scum would try to avoid defending their buddies so blatantly, especially since it never seemed super likely that joth would get lynched.

This is a good post. :P

I still think cube’s wagon was scummy and cube has seemed townie.

Then ash shoots a townie and disclaims all responsibility for her actions. I’m not like that upset because obviously I was driving the mcmc lynch at that point and legitimately thought she was scum, but I think it’s important to note that ash did not but shot her anyway then blamed the town, which is just obnoxiously poor play.

Well there's that.

Back to vote: joth

Hey mail-mi, what was this about?

In the interest of analysis, the ash wagon, in order:

Also, for the record, hating on ashersky plans is just a hipster contrarianism thing to do. As Awaclus points out subconsciously, the efficacy of ashersky plans notwithstanding, the airing of, discussion of, and sometimes demolishing of ashersky plans is always pro-town. And generally they are pro-town regardless of my own alignment.

If you want to complain about ashersky plans, the correct way is to say it has zero bearing on my alignment so I deserve no town points for them. Unfortunately, I often do get scum points if I don’t have one, so partly this is all your fault.

Separate to this, using waiting for the plan as an excuse to not otherwise engage is not an acceptable action.

One could argue if your plans are generally Pro-Town regardless of alignment, then it is skummy to make town wait to hear said plan.

Just saying - you know a plan is going to have an effect on the skum hunting (inevitable and NAI)... but withholding it after stating it exists doesn't really make sense. It is still going to have the unwanted effect of dialing back skum hunting, while simultaneously lessening the amount of time we all have to discuss the plan prior to the day ending.

In the few games I have played with you, I def give you the credit for being a crafty minx and all, but this doesn't really make a ton of sense.
And then back that up with the girl (doing Gooble's thing) bringing it up in the first place, followed by being the one accusing people of stalling... kind of reeks of skum sauce.


Vote: Ashes

(this is the only vote that came before the vig shot and DatSwan apparently doesn’t log on again until after the hammer)

But actually. Vote: ashersky

Convince me you aren't a SK or something like that

Ugh! Why kill mcmc? We weren’t that close to the deadline so it doesn’t make any sense to say the votes were there. And now we still need to lupynch someone?

Vote: Ash

Ok, knee jerk reaction is over.

Back to vote: joth

It seems pretty unlikely that a multi shot, or even one-shot, dayvig is town. So I would suggest we take the ash lynch off the table, at least for now.

unvote

I’ll look at some interactions to see where to move it.

This was an interesting reaction, and I think scummy

(effectively unvoting ash)

Here’s my read on the situation having never played a game with a diving before.

The reason for not telling people about it is to have an “ace in the hole”, so to speak. Now that it’s been used, everyone, town and scum knows to be on the lookout for it. I’m not sure why giving up the element of surprise to shoot someone you don’t have a particularly strong read on is a good use of the power.

Shooting me would have made a lot more sense. I would be less suspicious of that. Of course I would be dead, so that wouldn’t matter.

Shooting mcmc makes more sense if you’re scum. He’s got this “they were gonna lynch him anyway” defense, plus it throws suspicion onto me because people are going to wonder why you didn’t shoot me if I was your scumread.

Not to mention the fact that you say you had no idea the deadline would be extended, which means... you wanted to remove the only wagon with enough votes on it to be non-random at a point where the town had no time to reach a new consensus?

That’s super scummy to me.

vote: ash

vote: ash

Someone convince me that ashersky could be scum without the set up being broken because I badly want to vote for her.

I played a normal game on another site where scum team had 1 dayvig shot. Also maybe they should forgo the nk now. Or he’s a third party. Pick one

Good enough for me. vote: ash

So, here’s what I don’t get... Why did Ashersky kill mcmc when she did? Especially when she didn’t think she was scum? It’s seems pretty anti-town to choose the only marginally largest wagon with a full day left to talk before DL and shoot before letting her claim or allowing more votes to coalesce before the kill. Especially if she really thought Glooble was more scummy.

I’m not trying to be dense (I’m still kinda new at this), so it would help if someone could explain to me how that shot at this time helps town.

Hetnys, in the books, is Radchaii but is also not regally on the right side of things and end up being held hostage by Breq (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancillary_Sword).

I am assuming there is a modifier on ashes role where “they have to shoot or X happens”.... prettty much bc i agree with you that thier actions don’t make a ton of sense as skum. Draws way too much attention.

Unvote

Who is scummy on this wagon?

Me. Sure. I was the hammer and I did the whole “give me a reason” thing plus I basically drove the mcmc wagon also. So I can definitely see why I’m not coming off great here!
LaLight. No explanation for the vote. Ready to supply the reason I needed.
Sheepy-sheep on both mcmc and ash wagons.
WCD maybe

Who looks towny?

e and DatSwan for (trying to) jump off the wagon

Final scumreads after day 1 re-read:
mail-mi, Robz, LaLight, WCD and Swan a little bit

Nullreads/can’t decide:
Glooble, Awaclus, Space, Haddock (wasn’t around day 1)

Town reads:
ash, e, hypercube

me:
joth

dead:
mcmc

I feel good for having this out there, even though I didn't really find any smoking guns.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on January 22, 2019, 10:33:53 am
Hi Joth-

I don't want to quote the giant wall, but here there is one part that is about me that I can respond to me before I need to go to work.  You say "I continue to get a slight scumread on WCD. She posts infrequently but her posts are lengthy, which could be indicative of newbie scum playing & posting very carefully. But it could also just be newbie town doing that. Her posts feel … strategic. idk. something to keep an eye on."

I am most def newbie town. I tend to think through and process what I am reading when I am posting, thus the length of my posts.  As for the infrequency, it doesn't feel infrequent to me!  But I know that sometimes I read and don't actually have anything to add until I have some time to dwell. While I am definitely not keeping up with the super high posters, I would bet that I am somewhere in the middle in a post count. So, I am posting very carefully but its mostly not to look silly/novice/clueless rather than to avoid suspicion. My best evidence that this is the way I play is M119. I have never been scum so I don't have any counter evidence.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on January 22, 2019, 10:44:34 am
Hi Joth-

I don't want to quote the giant wall, but here there is one part that is about me that I can respond to me before I need to go to work.  You say "I continue to get a slight scumread on WCD. She posts infrequently but her posts are lengthy, which could be indicative of newbie scum playing & posting very carefully. But it could also just be newbie town doing that. Her posts feel … strategic. idk. something to keep an eye on."

I am most def newbie town. I tend to think through and process what I am reading when I am posting, thus the length of my posts.  As for the infrequency, it doesn't feel infrequent to me!  But I know that sometimes I read and don't actually have anything to add until I have some time to dwell. While I am definitely not keeping up with the super high posters, I would bet that I am somewhere in the middle in a post count. So, I am posting very carefully but its mostly not to look silly/novice/clueless rather than to avoid suspicion. My best evidence that this is the way I play is M119. I have never been scum so I don't have any counter evidence.

This is a fine response. When you have a minute, I'd love to hear about why you started the mcmc wagon when you did rather then contributing to one of the existing cases.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Haddock on January 22, 2019, 10:54:07 am
This is a reminder to myself to reread Swan at some point.  The posts quoted in the above do look scummy but it's hard to tell out of context and I wasn't grabbed by anything in my initial catchup read.

joth is slowly talking me round, I like the most recent post especially.  I am conscious that it is very easy to look towny by reflecting the views of others, but nonetheless this is better.  I will consider moving.  But right now I'm trying to write a paper, so will be able to focus better later on.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Haddock on January 22, 2019, 10:55:00 am
EBWOP
This is a reminder to myself to reread Swan at some point.  The posts quoted in the above do look scummy but it's hard to tell out of context and I wasn't grabbed by anything in my initial catchup read.

joth is slowly talking me round, I like the second most recent (longer) post especially.  I am conscious that it is very easy to look towny by reflecting the views of others, but nonetheless this is better.  I will consider moving.  But right now I'm trying to write a paper, so will be able to focus better later on.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on January 22, 2019, 10:55:39 am
Hi Joth-

I don't want to quote the giant wall, but here there is one part that is about me that I can respond to me before I need to go to work.  You say "I continue to get a slight scumread on WCD. She posts infrequently but her posts are lengthy, which could be indicative of newbie scum playing & posting very carefully. But it could also just be newbie town doing that. Her posts feel … strategic. idk. something to keep an eye on."

I am most def newbie town. I tend to think through and process what I am reading when I am posting, thus the length of my posts.  As for the infrequency, it doesn't feel infrequent to me!  But I know that sometimes I read and don't actually have anything to add until I have some time to dwell. While I am definitely not keeping up with the super high posters, I would bet that I am somewhere in the middle in a post count. So, I am posting very carefully but its mostly not to look silly/novice/clueless rather than to avoid suspicion. My best evidence that this is the way I play is M119. I have never been scum so I don't have any counter evidence.

This is a fine response. When you have a minute, I'd love to hear about why you started the mcmc wagon when you did rather then contributing to one of the existing cases.

Mostly because I was uninspired by the Glooble/Hyper/Joth choices. I don't think it serves our town to lynch our most active players off the bat and even though there were some off notes here and there in different posts, all of y'all were playing. When I voted for Mcmc, I didn't know I was starting a wagon, and I didn't know that Asher was going to kill her. Rather, I was looking for her to get into the game. I moved my vote to Galz when Mcmc showed up and had a cranky series of posts about my frustration when folks are MIA--which I think is different than lurking. I think that frustration is pretty consistent for me, too. I didn't think that either Mcmc or Galz were necessarily scum, but I know for sure they were not contributing when I voted for them.

I also voted for Ash, mostly because I thought that shooting Mcmc was seriously Not Cool. But I was definitely under the impression that we had more time so I wasn't down with having him lynched and I was getting ready to respond to DatSwan's unvote when the day abruptly ended. 

Alright, class in 4 minutes so off to work for real this time. :)
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on January 22, 2019, 10:59:52 am
WCD is rapidly convincing me of her towniness.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: hypercube on January 22, 2019, 11:01:09 am
I've played all my games so far with WCD, so I can confirm that she's playing how I'd expect her to as town. Of course, she hasn't really been under any pressure yet so I wouldn't exactly give her an unshakable town read.

I also like joth's reread/analysis, it has some good insights and seems pretty towny overall. I guess I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt regarding his reaction to ash's claims for now.

Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: mail-mi on January 22, 2019, 11:13:08 am
Actually, Vote: mail-mi

While it might sound like pronoun-omgus, I've just realised that I haven't been doing setup stuff at all, so characterizing me as having done so is weird. I've talked about the flavour, because it's something I like, and about timezones because it's something I'm generally conscious of as someone who's not on the American continent.

I haven't really begun posting my thoughts on how the game mechanics and real set-up stuff might go, because the stuff I've thought of doesn't really fit with a anything I'd see as a balanced game.

This was a good point by Space that still sort of holds up.

no it doesn't. We already discussed this--by "set up" I was meaning logistics.

Quote

ah, a day 1 wagon on me. some things never change

vote: mail-mi

Mass claims on day one are always a bad idea.

You're probably right. I guess a better question would be, are there obvious flavor names that would be scum?

This is a two-punch scummy post from mail-mi. One, the "day 1 wagon on her" is 2 votes for unrelated reasons, so not really even much of a wagon at all. Two, the immediate back-down from the claim idea.

1. I was making a joke (something you like to do as well)
2. I was not married to the idea of a claim. It was simply a suggestion, that others who have been playing mafia for the last 2 years shot down. After reading their posts, I agreed with them. Simple as that

Quote
Vote: Jotheonah

This felt like pouncing on mail-mi for something that might very well be wrong but was not especially likely to come from scum. (Town needs no help tricking itself into mass claiming.)

When does scum ever actually do this? Scum doesn't need to pounce at this juncture. Scum just needs to wait for a good-looking town wagon and slide onboard.

Well, scum wants to look like they're.scumhunting.

vote: joth

vote: hypercube

This is exactly the position scum wants to be on the wagon. Voting for someone who already has votes, and turning a couple votes into an actual wagon

I know that didn't make much sense, I'm having a hard time putting my thoughts into words. I hope you (meaning the general populus) understands what I'm trying to say

This was part of my case on mail-mi yesterday. It’s an extremely weak case on hypercube and doesn’t make a ton of sense as town. But as a gambit to get me off her back by voting for the person who just voted for me, it makes a lot of sense.

It was day 1, and it was the best I had up til that point.  I'm gonna reread hypercube, but I've got a townishread on her right now (which is subject to change) Why don't you talk about e's case on Hypercube, which is pretty much the same as the case I made? And why doesn't it make him scummy (cop claim notwithstanding)?

Quote
Looks like everyone has posted except ash, mcmc, and gala. Where y'all at?

Here is mail-mi changing the subject to something safe while everyone is talking about her and whether she might be scum.

If you would notice all the other posts around that post, I responded to the people voting for me and defended myself. Is it wrong to talk about multiple things at once, like you're doing in this post? I just did it in multiple posts.

Quote
I think continuing to focus on mail-mi so much--something Joth is doing--is somewhat scummy. I've often seen mail-mi make himself into an easy target in games past, perhaps especially when town.

This feels like a partner stepping in to protect. Also notable that this is one of Robz’s very few posts so far all game.
He's not my partner because I am not scum. Also Robz just doesn't like day 1. It's a nullread on him for me.

Quote
Sidenote, there is so much voting for me happening day 1. Scum absolutely gave me hated because they knew I’d be the easiest mislynch, and it’s not twitchy or defensive of me to say so.

That's a fair point. It's also very possible that a townsperson has the ability to give you hated because they think that you are scum, and I still think that you are scummy, so currently I think it's the latter
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: mail-mi on January 22, 2019, 11:17:02 am
Well there's that.

Back to vote: joth

Hey mail-mi, what was this about?


I had been voting for galz for not being present, and he was replaced by Haddock. I didn't want to be voting for haddock, so I went with my highest scumread which was you.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: mail-mi on January 22, 2019, 11:21:50 am
Just reread hypercube, I don't have a strong townread on her now, but I do have a townread.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: faust on January 22, 2019, 11:25:48 am
Vote Count 2.1

jotheonah (2): Haddock, 2.71828.....
mail-mi (1): jotheonah

Not Voting (10): SpaceAnemone, LaLight, DatSwan, mail-mi, Awaclus, WestCoastDidds, Robz888, hypercube, Glooble, ashersky

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch. Day 2 ends on January 29, 2019, 01:00:00 am.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: mail-mi on January 22, 2019, 11:42:43 am
I have a feeling, based on flavor, that alignment switching is not going to be voluntary. I suspect Aanander Mianani will have some kind of cult leader mechanic. Could be wrong of course.

Mentions possible 3rd parties. Look at it in conjunction with his SK hunting for today. Also completely misses part of the setup, which does give him some small townpoints.

vote: mail-mi

Mass claims on day one are always a bad idea.

Votes for me. I like Robz's response to it, which also describes my thoughts:

Vote: Jotheonah

This felt like pouncing on mail-mi for something that might very well be wrong but was not especially likely to come from scum. (Town needs no help tricking itself into mass claiming.)

Quote from: jotheonah
Quote from: Robz888
I think continuing to focus on mail-mi so much--something Joth is doing--is somewhat scummy. I've often seen mail-mi make himself into an easy target in games past, perhaps especially when town.

I agree.

vote:Robz

Suddenly agrees that I make myself an easy target and unvotes off of me and back onto robz. So I guess suddenly has a townread on me, without much explanation as to why.

unvote

Voting for Robz was kind of silly.

it was.

I’m going to go ahead and say it: I strongly dislike the cube wagon. Everything about it feels scummy and bad. I’m going to move my vote to vote: mcmc. Not because of lurking, because of the posting she’s done since she stopped lurking.

I think describing the hypercube wagon as stalled while hypercube was the leading wagon, after saying she just caught up, is a scumslip. Someone who just caught up wouldn’t make that mistake. Someone who was reading along and not posting and decided to make an appearance when the heat started getting on them might.

I know that when I’m scum it’s hard to get myself to actually reread since I’m not actually looking for information.

Even if the mistake isn’t a scum slip, “sorry I’ve been lurking, I’m going to reread and conclude that the best lynch happens to also be the person with the most votes on her already” doesn’t look great on its own.

I actually thought mcmc's posting post-lurking was pretty townie. And in light of her flip, I don't like this vote.

A couple things.

1) we kind of breezed past ash’s flavor claim, but isn’t Hetnys a bad guy? Hetnys is Breq’s subordinate and goes turncoat to work for Aanander.

2) I don’t think we’re dealing with a double vote. I think we’re dealing with ash being hated (or one of each). So ash has at least three powers: daykill, lynchproof, and hated. You know who. Gets big piles of powers? A serial killer.

3) I don’t want to force anyone to claim, but my power could help explain the lack of a nightkill iff LaLight is bulletproof or was targeted with protection.

4) FYI my hatedness today is not part of my role. So it has been inflicted on me. Not super-surprising since apparently I have “today’s mislynch” written all over me.

1) If Ash was a bad guy, he would have been given a fake flavor claim that was a good guy. I don't think scum!ash would just share his actual flavor name. This is a bad point.

2) SK does not get hated, that would be awful. Also, joth is SK hunting before we even have a single night kill, or a single scum dead.

3) we don't need those kind of claims right now

4) I think you have "today's correct lynch" written all over you.

Ironic that ash keeps talking about giving the town an extra lynch day 1 (as if that’s protown) But she has in fact denied us a day one lynch by not dying.

I’m tempted to ask ash to fullclaim. I’m also tempted to go ahead and try to finish what we started day one.

Well, I didn't plan on me being the extra lynch, nor did I know I wouldn't die.

The extra lynch should have been whomever was #2 on the lynch list -- so one of the folks with two votes.  Or it looks like the new Galzria would have been coming after you.

Regardless of my not dying, we did have two "lynches" on D1.  We just didn't get two flips.

As for full claiming, not a good idea.  Remaining number of shots and when/how I can use them is what scum wants to know.  Scum also wants to lynch me.

I've claimed what needs to be known (through words or actions).  Hetnys, sometimes dayvig, sometimes hated.  Everything else is not related to my role (not dying from lynch, surviving last night).

Cool, this is exactly what I expected a serial killer to say.

vote: Ash

Good enough for yesterday, good enough for today.

Again, is sk hunting before we even have a single nightkill. You know who really wants to get rid of the SK? scum.

Still waiting for an adequate explanation of your "multiple layers of weirdness" comment.  I saw you buried an answer in a misquote post, but "I didn't see you twice explained why you got lynched early" doesn't really cut it.

Nonetheless that’s the answer. I woke up this Leong to more than a page of posts, read through them quickly, didn’t see those. So I thought you were claiming that you had no idea why you were lynched and also no idea why you didn’t die.

If you're voting for someone, I would think you would read their posts carefully instead of saying "they're scum" (or in this case "they're sk) "lynch them!"

I'm still seeing scum!jotheonah here and it's not because she's annoying and/or flippant.  I haven't seen flippant at all really.

It's because she's OMGUSsy, hedgey, over defensive and twitchy. 

I mean, obviously I'm very happy to consider other lynches, but I'm happy where my vote is for now.  Noone else has really given me strong scumvibes.

I agree with Haddock here.

I also don't like his place on either the mcmc or the ash wagon. Ash, to me, was definitely town even yesterday.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: mail-mi on January 22, 2019, 11:43:23 am
I have a feeling, based on flavor, that alignment switching is not going to be voluntary. I suspect Aanander Mianani will have some kind of cult leader mechanic. Could be wrong of course.

Mentions possible 3rd parties. Look at it in conjunction with his SK hunting for today. Also completely misses part of the setup, which does give him some small townpoints.

vote: mail-mi

Mass claims on day one are always a bad idea.

Votes for me. I like Robz's response to it, which also describes my thoughts:

Vote: Jotheonah

This felt like pouncing on mail-mi for something that might very well be wrong but was not especially likely to come from scum. (Town needs no help tricking itself into mass claiming.)

Quote from: jotheonah
Quote from: Robz888
I think continuing to focus on mail-mi so much--something Joth is doing--is somewhat scummy. I've often seen mail-mi make himself into an easy target in games past, perhaps especially when town.

I agree.

vote:Robz

Suddenly agrees that I make myself an easy target and unvotes off of me and back onto robz. So I guess suddenly has a townread on me, without much explanation as to why.

unvote

Voting for Robz was kind of silly.

it was.

I’m going to go ahead and say it: I strongly dislike the cube wagon. Everything about it feels scummy and bad. I’m going to move my vote to vote: mcmc. Not because of lurking, because of the posting she’s done since she stopped lurking.

I think describing the hypercube wagon as stalled while hypercube was the leading wagon, after saying she just caught up, is a scumslip. Someone who just caught up wouldn’t make that mistake. Someone who was reading along and not posting and decided to make an appearance when the heat started getting on them might.

I know that when I’m scum it’s hard to get myself to actually reread since I’m not actually looking for information.

Even if the mistake isn’t a scum slip, “sorry I’ve been lurking, I’m going to reread and conclude that the best lynch happens to also be the person with the most votes on her already” doesn’t look great on its own.

I actually thought mcmc's posting post-lurking was pretty townie. And in light of her flip, I don't like this vote.

A couple things.

1) we kind of breezed past ash’s flavor claim, but isn’t Hetnys a bad guy? Hetnys is Breq’s subordinate and goes turncoat to work for Aanander.

2) I don’t think we’re dealing with a double vote. I think we’re dealing with ash being hated (or one of each). So ash has at least three powers: daykill, lynchproof, and hated. You know who. Gets big piles of powers? A serial killer.

3) I don’t want to force anyone to claim, but my power could help explain the lack of a nightkill iff LaLight is bulletproof or was targeted with protection.

4) FYI my hatedness today is not part of my role. So it has been inflicted on me. Not super-surprising since apparently I have “today’s mislynch” written all over me.

1) If Ash was a bad guy, he would have been given a fake flavor claim that was a good guy. I don't think scum!ash would just share his actual flavor name. This is a bad point.

2) SK does not get hated, that would be awful. Also, joth is SK hunting before we even have a single night kill, or a single scum dead.

3) we don't need those kind of claims right now

4) I think you have "today's correct lynch" written all over you.

Ironic that ash keeps talking about giving the town an extra lynch day 1 (as if that’s protown) But she has in fact denied us a day one lynch by not dying.

I’m tempted to ask ash to fullclaim. I’m also tempted to go ahead and try to finish what we started day one.

Well, I didn't plan on me being the extra lynch, nor did I know I wouldn't die.

The extra lynch should have been whomever was #2 on the lynch list -- so one of the folks with two votes.  Or it looks like the new Galzria would have been coming after you.

Regardless of my not dying, we did have two "lynches" on D1.  We just didn't get two flips.

As for full claiming, not a good idea.  Remaining number of shots and when/how I can use them is what scum wants to know.  Scum also wants to lynch me.

I've claimed what needs to be known (through words or actions).  Hetnys, sometimes dayvig, sometimes hated.  Everything else is not related to my role (not dying from lynch, surviving last night).

Cool, this is exactly what I expected a serial killer to say.

vote: Ash

Good enough for yesterday, good enough for today.

Again, is sk hunting before we even have a single nightkill. You know who really wants to get rid of the SK? scum.

Still waiting for an adequate explanation of your "multiple layers of weirdness" comment.  I saw you buried an answer in a misquote post, but "I didn't see you twice explained why you got lynched early" doesn't really cut it.

Nonetheless that’s the answer. I woke up this Leong to more than a page of posts, read through them quickly, didn’t see those. So I thought you were claiming that you had no idea why you were lynched and also no idea why you didn’t die.

If you're voting for someone, I would think you would read their posts carefully instead of saying "they're scum" (or in this case "they're sk) "lynch them!"

I'm still seeing scum!jotheonah here and it's not because she's annoying and/or flippant.  I haven't seen flippant at all really.

It's because she's OMGUSsy, hedgey, over defensive and twitchy. 

I mean, obviously I'm very happy to consider other lynches, but I'm happy where my vote is for now.  Noone else has really given me strong scumvibes.

I agree with Haddock here.

I also don't like his place on either the mcmc or the ash wagon. Ash, to me, was definitely town even yesterday.

fixed my last post
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: mail-mi on January 22, 2019, 11:47:21 am
Also joth's point about "a lot of votes for me" is semi true. Joth was somebody that a lot of people were scumreading, but we could never actually get a real wagon going--exactly what happens with scum wagons on day 1. If/when joth flips scum, we should look at who was scumreading him but not voting for him day 1 or today.

But with all that said,

vote: joth
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on January 22, 2019, 11:51:22 am
There's a lot happening pretty fast, which is excellent, but I can't keep up from a busy day at work. Brief thoughts for now: WCD seems townie to me in the same way hyper did yesterday. Ash self-voting earlier actually seems like town!ash being miffed at us. Other stuff will have to wait till I'm not furtively checking the thread while my colleagues are in a meeting.

PPE 3
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on January 22, 2019, 12:04:53 pm
Ok, let's talk about SK hunting real quick.

I am pro-lynching scum and anti-lynching town. Killing a serial killer (if we have one, which I actually think we don't) is lynching scum. I'd rather lynch someone I have a strong SK-read on than someone I have a weak scum-read on.

Just statistically, SK kills are more likely to hit town. Killing a SK halves the nightkills, which gives town more time to find scum and more control over the game.

TL;DR SK-hunting is pro-town and I'm not sorry about it.

This is all pretty academic since I don't think we have an SK and ash is apparently just really bad at being a vig. But if it's the case against me mail-mi is going with, that is my defense.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: hypercube on January 22, 2019, 12:46:11 pm
I don't want to derail anything, but at the same time I don't see any reason to delay this, so I'm going to claim now. I don't think this should really impact how we play out the rest of the Day anyways.

I have been targeted for an alignment change. I have decided not to accept this change, and consequently I will die at the end of the Day. I have made this decision since I am a VT, and I think that publicizing this information and dying gives me a better chance of winning than does changing my alignment.

The alignment change would transfer me to a faction which is not considered an enemy of the Radch. The win condition of this faction is for all enemies of the Radch to be eliminated, and for a certain player (whose identity I do not know) to survive. This unknown player must be the only surviving Anaander Mianaai for this faction to win. I do not know if joining the faction would make me an Anaander Mianaai, or whether multiple Anaander Mianaai of different factions currently exist.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Glooble on January 22, 2019, 12:51:02 pm
I think continuing to focus on mail-mi so much--something Joth is doing--is somewhat scummy. I've often seen mail-mi make himself into an easy target in games past, perhaps especially when town.

Trying to do a reread during my lunchbreak and this post stuck out at me. At the time Robz posts this, Awaclus is the one who is pushing mail-mi's wagon a lot harder than joth. In fact, joth has already started to back off mail-mi. Seems a little odd that Robz doesn't attack her.

someone mentioned earlier in the game that "skum just wants to make it look like they are skum hunting for credit".

asking questions like these pretty much meet that criteria imo

Vote: Awaclus

I think I glossed over this exchange back on day one, which lead to me misreading the little DatSwan/ Awaclus fight. ON rereading I kind of agree with DatSwan here, at least regarding Awalus's play in the early pages. I know people who've played with her before are saying she's just like this, but I still have a bit of a scrumread on her.

So, we will all wait for after dinner and for folks to get caught up, or maybe for a Ashersky plan

So.. is it pro-town just to wait for Ash's plan? Are you even aware of the kinds of things these Ashersky-plans of his tend to involve?

Characteristic one: he announces to the thread that he has a plan, but then waits ages to post it, building expectation. In games like this, it has a very real risk of stalling all the genuine worthwhile conversation in the thread because too many people buy into the cult of the Ashersky plan and don't want to put their own effort in when they hope someone else is going to come along and do it for them.

I think it's not very pro-town of him to do the hint-and-run routine in the first place, but it's certainly not pro-town for the rest of us to let multiple comments along the lines of "let's wait for Ashersky's plan" go by and not have at least a little rant about it ;-)

(I was going to go into more characteristics of the plans, but I'm at work, and now my breakfast-coffee is over, I need to get back to analysis of real data!)

I still mostly have a townread on Space, but at the point this post was made it kinda seems like no one was actually suggesting just waiting around for a plan? WCD, DatSwan and I all said we were eager to hear the plan, but none of us said anything I would construe as meaning "let's just sit and do nothing and wait for ash to save us." So kind of a slightly fishy comment to make?

You know who is looking really scummy this reread though? LaLight. A lot of her votes are sheepish or have minimal reasoing behind them. I don't think sheeping a vote here and there is inherently scummy, especially if someone else made a strong point, but doing it repeatedly is suspicious. See her votes for hypercube on page 6, me on page 10, and ashersky on page 17.

vote: LaLight
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on January 22, 2019, 12:51:18 pm
Ok in light of this new information, e, can you confirm that ash is Radch-aligned, or did your investigative result say something along the lines of "not an enemy of the radch"? Could ash be the recruiter or some other third faction?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Glooble on January 22, 2019, 12:52:02 pm
I don't want to derail anything, but at the same time I don't see any reason to delay this, so I'm going to claim now. I don't think this should really impact how we play out the rest of the Day anyways.

I have been targeted for an alignment change. I have decided not to accept this change, and consequently I will die at the end of the Day. I have made this decision since I am a VT, and I think that publicizing this information and dying gives me a better chance of winning than does changing my alignment.

The alignment change would transfer me to a faction which is not considered an enemy of the Radch. The win condition of this faction is for all enemies of the Radch to be eliminated, and for a certain player (whose identity I do not know) to survive. This unknown player must be the only surviving Anaander Mianaai for this faction to win. I do not know if joining the faction would make me an Anaander Mianaai, or whether multiple Anaander Mianaai of different factions currently exist.


Confused. If this is RM how can you be a VT?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: hypercube on January 22, 2019, 12:57:02 pm
I don't want to derail anything, but at the same time I don't see any reason to delay this, so I'm going to claim now. I don't think this should really impact how we play out the rest of the Day anyways.

I have been targeted for an alignment change. I have decided not to accept this change, and consequently I will die at the end of the Day. I have made this decision since I am a VT, and I think that publicizing this information and dying gives me a better chance of winning than does changing my alignment.

The alignment change would transfer me to a faction which is not considered an enemy of the Radch. The win condition of this faction is for all enemies of the Radch to be eliminated, and for a certain player (whose identity I do not know) to survive. This unknown player must be the only surviving Anaander Mianaai for this faction to win. I do not know if joining the faction would make me an Anaander Mianaai, or whether multiple Anaander Mianaai of different factions currently exist.


Confused. If this is RM how can you be a VT?

Because it says so in my PM  :D

Seriously though, my understanding is that RM means "lots of roles" not necessarily "no VTs."
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Signups open!)
Post by: jotheonah on January 22, 2019, 01:01:44 pm
Setup

This is a closed setup. It contains roles with abilities designed specifically for this game as well as standard abilities. A player may have more or less than one ability. There is at least one possibility in this game for a player to change their alignment. Care has been taken to make this as balanced as possible. Noone's alignment can change without their consent.

Some roles in this game are AIs. Those may interact differently with other abilities than non-AI roles.

Checks out
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Glooble on January 22, 2019, 01:12:00 pm
Ok cool. I thought RM meant literally everyone had a role. I guess I was wrong.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: mail-mi on January 22, 2019, 01:12:14 pm
Interesting info coming from hypercube, I guess faust's comments about choosing alignment changing were real.

Seems a little unfair that the choice is between alignment change and death, but whatever. Is there anything else you can tell us about it hypercube?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on January 22, 2019, 01:14:59 pm
Holy cow, Hyper! That’s nuts. Thanks for not joining the dark side. So, we know there is Rachaii, Aanander, and a third party. I’m assuming the Presgar translators.

Glooble, I’m feeling you on the LaLight scummy vibe. SHe’s been far less engaged than I’ve known her to be.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: hypercube on January 22, 2019, 01:21:48 pm
Is there anything else you can tell us about it hypercube?

The third faction could win alongside town, however if the leader dies all its members will be endgamed and die as well.

So, the third faction is a potential ally to town or a serious potential liability down the road. I'm not really sure how to approach the question of whether to hunt them or not.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on January 22, 2019, 01:24:45 pm
I was scum with LaLight in the just-concluded Czech mafia game, which I assume I'm now allowed to discuss. Honestly, her play so far has been pretty similar. But I wouldn't put a ton of weight on that because I get the sense she's very good at matching her town meta as scum. Also, for day 1 she was probably putting more attention on Czech mafia, which was in LyLo.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Glooble on January 22, 2019, 01:26:10 pm
Is there anything else you can tell us about it hypercube?

The third faction could win alongside town, however if the leader dies all its members will be endgamed and die as well.

So, the third faction is a potential ally to town or a serious potential liability down the road. I'm not really sure how to approach the question of whether to hunt them or not.


I would say not. Play to our win-con.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: mail-mi on January 22, 2019, 01:41:26 pm
Is there anything else you can tell us about it hypercube?

The third faction could win alongside town, however if the leader dies all its members will be endgamed and die as well.

So, the third faction is a potential ally to town or a serious potential liability down the road. I'm not really sure how to approach the question of whether to hunt them or not.

Did it say anything about the faction winning alongside scum?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Awaclus on January 22, 2019, 01:51:53 pm
Preferably we should at least identify who the third faction are. Whether or not we should lynch them depends on the situation; survivors are beneficial for the faction that is already winning.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: hypercube on January 22, 2019, 01:56:00 pm
Is there anything else you can tell us about it hypercube?

The third faction could win alongside town, however if the leader dies all its members will be endgamed and die as well.

So, the third faction is a potential ally to town or a serious potential liability down the road. I'm not really sure how to approach the question of whether to hunt them or not.

Did it say anything about the faction winning alongside scum?

The faction has to eliminate the enemies of the Radch to win, so presumably not.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: 2.71828..... on January 22, 2019, 02:00:36 pm
Ashersky is Radch-aligned.

And yeah, sounds like a very interesting survivor role for the 3rd party. Wonder if they can recruit scum too?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: mail-mi on January 22, 2019, 02:02:20 pm
Is there anything else you can tell us about it hypercube?

The third faction could win alongside town, however if the leader dies all its members will be endgamed and die as well.

So, the third faction is a potential ally to town or a serious potential liability down the road. I'm not really sure how to approach the question of whether to hunt them or not.

Did it say anything about the faction winning alongside scum?

The faction has to eliminate the enemies of the Radch to win, so presumably not.

So I guess they're a survivor variant that's aligned with town. Don't think we should worry about killing them, then. If it does happen though I wouldn't be too sad.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: 2.71828..... on January 22, 2019, 02:02:54 pm
Is there anything else you can tell us about it hypercube?

The third faction could win alongside town, however if the leader dies all its members will be endgamed and die as well.

So, the third faction is a potential ally to town or a serious potential liability down the road. I'm not really sure how to approach the question of whether to hunt them or not.

Did it say anything about the faction winning alongside scum?

The faction has to eliminate the enemies of the Radch to win, so presumably not.

So survivor-esque, not straight survivor that wins with town or scum.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: 2.71828..... on January 22, 2019, 02:04:15 pm
Preferably we should at least identify who the third faction are. Whether or not we should lynch them depends on the situation; survivors are beneficial for the faction that is already winning.

If they only win with town then I think that we don't even need to try to identify them
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: 2.71828..... on January 22, 2019, 02:05:58 pm
My thought now is to use them to basically establish an IC each day? Accept the change in alignment, you stay alive, but we count things like lylo in light of the fact that a single NK could eliminate 2-3 or more players
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: 2.71828..... on January 22, 2019, 02:06:16 pm
Haven't thought that much about it though
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: 2.71828..... on January 22, 2019, 02:07:05 pm
I do appreciate hypercube's sacrifice. Learning this D2 with a flip at EoD really helps us I think. Especially if we can use it well
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Glooble on January 22, 2019, 04:35:37 pm
My thought now is to use them to basically establish an IC each day? Accept the change in alignment, you stay alive, but we count things like lylo in light of the fact that a single NK could eliminate 2-3 or more players

Do we have any reason to believe the members of this faction just straight up die when their leader does? My assumption would be they're still in the game, they just can't win.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: 2.71828..... on January 22, 2019, 04:42:23 pm
Is there anything else you can tell us about it hypercube?

The third faction could win alongside town, however if the leader dies all its members will be endgamed and die as well.

So, the third faction is a potential ally to town or a serious potential liability down the road. I'm not really sure how to approach the question of whether to hunt them or not.

@Glooble, emphasis mine
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on January 22, 2019, 04:44:27 pm
What if the faction is led by an AI and the concerts are ancillaries. If it’s killed, would her ancillaries die, too?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Glooble on January 22, 2019, 04:46:56 pm
Is there anything else you can tell us about it hypercube?

The third faction could win alongside town, however if the leader dies all its members will be endgamed and die as well.

So, the third faction is a potential ally to town or a serious potential liability down the road. I'm not really sure how to approach the question of whether to hunt them or not.

@Glooble, emphasis mine

Thanks I missed that. This should probably inform how we see players defending other players. I know we often use that as a scumtell, especially in later days. But in this case it might not be.

What if the faction is led by an AI and the concerts are ancillaries. If it’s killed, would her ancillaries die, too?

Well, in the books an Ancillary can survive the death of it's ship (that's how we get Breq.)
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on January 22, 2019, 04:58:56 pm
Quote from: Glooble link=topic=19374.msg783871#msg783871 date=1548193616

[quote author=WestCoastDidds link=topic=19374.msg783870#msg783870 date=1548193467
What if the faction is led by an AI and the converts are ancillaries. If it’s killed, would her ancillaries die, too?

Well, in the books an Ancillary can survive the death of it's ship (that's how we get Breq.)
[/quote]

Yeah, I thought about that but I couldn’t think of any other mechanic that killed the followers if the leader died. Do you have ideas? Maybe if a gate went down?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: hypercube on January 22, 2019, 05:18:05 pm
The third faction is Anaander Mianaai, or at least their leader is. From my rudimentary research into the flavour it seems that this is some sort of communal intelligence, so this makes sense. Now I'm curious why Didds thought Anaander Mianaai was something else...

Holy cow, Hyper! That’s nuts. Thanks for not joining the dark side. So, we know there is Rachaii, Aanander, and a third party. I’m assuming the Presgar translators.

Glooble, I’m feeling you on the LaLight scummy vibe. SHe’s been far less engaged than I’ve known her to be.

Could the scum faction also be Anaander Mianaai? Someone else with flavour knowledge help me out here.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on January 22, 2019, 05:25:35 pm
I assumed scum was Aanander and her minions. That is who Breq fights in the book.

There are aliens from beyond the Ghost Gate (notai, I think) who still use human ancillaries and aliens from Presgar  who are more powerful than humans (and who have created a super powerful gun that can kill anything that us in Breq’s pissssion) but they are not enemies of the Radchaii. So I think aliens are the third party, but it doesn’t jive with the all die when the leader dies.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on January 22, 2019, 05:27:42 pm
I'm basically caught up now! I'll post thoughts in a bit.

@Hyper, sorry about your predicament. I think it could go either way with Anaander being scum. She's the head of the Radch, so should be very much Radch-aligned. There are lots of clones of her, all networked together to be one person, except that it doesn't quite work right, so there are factions within Anander. Also, so manages to annexe a non-Anaander at one point, but then Breq finds out and fixes her.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on January 22, 2019, 05:30:04 pm
Catch-up thought #1: Why weren't any of the people posting today before Joth did asking about why he's hated? I had originally asked myself "why is nobody talking about this", and then it seemed a bit odd that Joth himself had to end up being the one to bring it up.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on January 22, 2019, 05:34:19 pm
Ash being town seems kind of plausible, though I still don't like yesterday's choice of shot when one of the main people pushing that wagon -- me -- was specifically pushing it with the agenda that all other things being equal, mcmc was the least bad of the set, and we had to lynch someone. That is a world away from "town needs to lynch this person because they're scummy", which is how Ash is presenting his action.

@e, how confident are you that you can't have been redirected, and that your result can't come from a godfather or some mechanism similar to that?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Glooble on January 22, 2019, 05:37:11 pm
Catch-up thought #1: Why weren't any of the people posting today before Joth did asking about why he's hated? I had originally asked myself "why is nobody talking about this", and then it seemed a bit odd that Joth himself had to end up being the one to bring it up.

I guess I just didn’t see the point in speculating about that? My first thought was it was ash’s power “whoever hammers my wagon gets hated the next day”. But then Ash has a whole kitchen sink of powers. Joth says it’s not innate and that makes sense - “hated day 2” is a weird power. The obvious conclusion is someone has the power to make someone hated. Sounds like a scum power, but I suppose it could be town?

After that it’s just WIFOM on who has that power and why they picked joth.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on January 22, 2019, 05:39:44 pm
I have a feeling, based on flavor, that alignment switching is not going to be voluntary. I suspect Aanander Mianani will have some kind of cult leader mechanic. Could be wrong of course.

I've never played a game with a Cult Leader, but is it pretty much just what Hyper has now described?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Glooble on January 22, 2019, 05:40:45 pm
Ash being town seems kind of plausible, though I still don't like yesterday's choice of shot when one of the main people pushing that wagon -- me -- was specifically pushing it with the agenda that all other things being equal, mcmc was the least bad of the set, and we had to lynch someone. That is a world away from "town needs to lynch this person because they're scummy", which is how Ash is presenting his action.

@e, how confident are you that you can't have been redirected, and that your result can't come from a godfather or some mechanism similar to that?

We also need to consider the possibility that ash and e are both part of this third faction. It would explain a lot.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on January 22, 2019, 05:42:46 pm
Joth says it’s not innate and that makes sense

Yeah, but my point is that Joth didn't say it was not innate till quite a lot of posts had happened in the day, and nobody seemed to wonder about it in all that time. For me, it was in immediate question when I saw the day opener.

It combines with the double-hated thing Ash seems to have/have had on D1. Another odd thing is that Ash's hated wasn't broadcast in-thread at all, whereas Joth's is there for us all to know about.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Glooble on January 22, 2019, 05:50:18 pm
Given the sheer amount of weird stuff there was to talk about, I’m not surprised we glossed over something.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: hypercube on January 22, 2019, 05:52:47 pm
I assumed scum was Aanander and her minions. That is who Breq fights in the book.

There are aliens from beyond the Ghost Gate (notai, I think) who still use human ancillaries and aliens from Presgar  who are more powerful than humans (and who have created a super powerful gun that can kill anything that us in Breq’s pissssion) but they are not enemies of the Radchaii. So I think aliens are the third party, but it doesn’t jive with the all die when the leader dies.

Again, I know from the message I received from faust that the leader of the third faction is Aanander. If scum is also Aanander, then I'm pretty sure that means that you're scum who slipped by revealing that you know scum's flavour.

Uh, remember this after I'm dead everyone! If a scum flips Aanander-aligned or something, lynch WCD.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Glooble on January 22, 2019, 06:02:17 pm
Anander literally fights herself in the books. And one faction of her is the primary villain. I don’t think WCD’s assumption is scummy in the least.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: hypercube on January 22, 2019, 06:04:30 pm
Ash being town seems kind of plausible, though I still don't like yesterday's choice of shot when one of the main people pushing that wagon -- me -- was specifically pushing it with the agenda that all other things being equal, mcmc was the least bad of the set, and we had to lynch someone. That is a world away from "town needs to lynch this person because they're scummy", which is how Ash is presenting his action.

@e, how confident are you that you can't have been redirected, and that your result can't come from a godfather or some mechanism similar to that?

We also need to consider the possibility that ash and e are both part of this third faction. It would explain a lot.

I thought about this too, but I don't think it makes sense. Well, I'm still not sure if it's pro-town to talk about this, but if I've figured something out this easily it's probably not super difficult for scum to do the same, so I guess I'll go ahead.

I think the leader is someone who had a strong town read on me yesterday. I assume that they can't recruit scum, since that would break the game. Trying to recruit scum almost certainly leads to to either a failure or the death of the leader, and therefore there's a strong incentive to recruit your strongest town reads. The other option would be that the scum would just die, but that seems way too strong. I don't think ash can be the leader, and I don't think E had a strong town read on me (unless she was pushing my wagon for most of yesterday insincerely).

This leads me to conclude that joth is the leader. She expressed a strong town read on me yesterday, and it would explain her behaviour, which I would categorize as being pro-town but also anxious about her survival.

joth, if I'm right, I think you should claim now. You're in a pretty bad position (sorry) so probably your best hope at this point is going to be to rely on town protection.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: hypercube on January 22, 2019, 06:05:34 pm
Anander literally fights herself in the books. And one faction of her is the primary villain. I don’t think WCD’s assumption is scummy in the least.

Ah, OK. Sorry Didds, I probably shouldn't try to scumhunt based on flavour I'm not familiar with.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Haddock on January 22, 2019, 06:09:44 pm
Ash being town seems kind of plausible, though I still don't like yesterday's choice of shot when one of the main people pushing that wagon -- me -- was specifically pushing it with the agenda that all other things being equal, mcmc was the least bad of the set, and we had to lynch someone. That is a world away from "town needs to lynch this person because they're scummy", which is how Ash is presenting his action.

@e, how confident are you that you can't have been redirected, and that your result can't come from a godfather or some mechanism similar to that?

We also need to consider the possibility that ash and e are both part of this third faction. It would explain a lot.

I thought about this too, but I don't think it makes sense. Well, I'm still not sure if it's pro-town to talk about this, but if I've figured something out this easily it's probably not super difficult for scum to do the same, so I guess I'll go ahead.

I think the leader is someone who had a strong town read on me yesterday. I assume that they can't recruit scum, since that would break the game. Trying to recruit scum almost certainly leads to to either a failure or the death of the leader, and therefore there's a strong incentive to recruit your strongest town reads. The other option would be that the scum would just die, but that seems way too strong. I don't think ash can be the leader, and I don't think E had a strong town read on me (unless she was pushing my wagon for most of yesterday insincerely).

This leads me to conclude that joth is the leader. She expressed a strong town read on me yesterday, and it would explain her behaviour, which I would categorize as being pro-town but also anxious about her survival.

joth, if I'm right, I think you should claim now. You're in a pretty bad position (sorry) so probably your best hope at this point is going to be to rely on town protection.
This is one of the most fascinatingly bold predictions I've ever seen apropos of nothing in a mafia game.  I freaking love it and very much want it to be true.


OK normal service resumes, I'm gonna reread a bit.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Haddock on January 22, 2019, 06:32:23 pm
Ok in light of this new information, e, can you confirm that ash is Radch-aligned, or did your investigative result say something along the lines of "not an enemy of the radch"? Could ash be the recruiter or some other third faction?
unvote  I like this post, I'm not sure it's something scum thinks about. 

Think I like vote:Robz, at least until she comes and does something.  She's not VLA right?

Catch-up thought #1: Why weren't any of the people posting today before Joth did asking about why he's hated? I had originally asked myself "why is nobody talking about this", and then it seemed a bit odd that Joth himself had to end up being the one to bring it up.
This is a really bizarre thing to get hung up on.  Why would we spend time speculating on that?  It's an RMM, these things are basically never understandable.

Ash being town seems kind of plausible, though I still don't like yesterday's choice of shot when one of the main people pushing that wagon -- me -- was specifically pushing it with the agenda that all other things being equal, mcmc was the least bad of the set, and we had to lynch someone. That is a world away from "town needs to lynch this person because they're scummy", which is how Ash is presenting his action.

@e, how confident are you that you can't have been redirected, and that your result can't come from a godfather or some mechanism similar to that?
Also somewhat bizarre?  We can probably largely agree that ash's play was not quite the right one, especially in retrospect, but that doesn't mean she's scum; town make mistakes, even ash.   How can you be so confident ash is scum that you are starting to question e's result?  I mean, sure we should take e's result with a pinch of salt, but, eh.   Surely it's enough to leave ash alone for now, especially in light of some way more interesting stuff going on.


Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on January 22, 2019, 06:54:00 pm
Surely it's enough to leave ash alone for now, especially in light of some way more interesting stuff going on.

Hey, c'mon, I did say that the string of stuff I posted was the notes I'd taken during my re-read. I was just about lurking along with a little of the earlier day, but had too much going on at work to be able to keep up, let along engage and post. Just because I'm a bit late to the party doesn't mean I can't give my take on things, especially given that I'm also responding to more recent stuff, so it's not that I'm trying to change the subject away from the "way more interesting things" or anything like that.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Haddock on January 22, 2019, 06:55:52 pm
Surely it's enough to leave ash alone for now, especially in light of some way more interesting stuff going on.

Hey, c'mon, I did say that the string of stuff I posted was the notes I'd taken during my re-read. I was just about lurking along with a little of the earlier day, but had too much going on at work to be able to keep up, let along engage and post. Just because I'm a bit late to the party doesn't mean I can't give my take on things, especially given that I'm also responding to more recent stuff, so it's not that I'm trying to change the subject away from the "way more interesting things" or anything like that.
Totally fine, that's cool.  Just, y'know, opinionating on your opinions. :)
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Robz888 on January 22, 2019, 07:13:32 pm
Hey everybody, I've had an absolutely INSANE couple of days work wise and am hopelessly behind at the moment. Won't have time to catch up until tomorrow at least.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on January 22, 2019, 08:00:30 pm
Ash being town seems kind of plausible, though I still don't like yesterday's choice of shot when one of the main people pushing that wagon -- me -- was specifically pushing it with the agenda that all other things being equal, mcmc was the least bad of the set, and we had to lynch someone. That is a world away from "town needs to lynch this person because they're scummy", which is how Ash is presenting his action.

@e, how confident are you that you can't have been redirected, and that your result can't come from a godfather or some mechanism similar to that?

We also need to consider the possibility that ash and e are both part of this third faction. It would explain a lot.

I thought about this too, but I don't think it makes sense. Well, I'm still not sure if it's pro-town to talk about this, but if I've figured something out this easily it's probably not super difficult for scum to do the same, so I guess I'll go ahead.

I think the leader is someone who had a strong town read on me yesterday. I assume that they can't recruit scum, since that would break the game. Trying to recruit scum almost certainly leads to to either a failure or the death of the leader, and therefore there's a strong incentive to recruit your strongest town reads. The other option would be that the scum would just die, but that seems way too strong. I don't think ash can be the leader, and I don't think E had a strong town read on me (unless she was pushing my wagon for most of yesterday insincerely).

This leads me to conclude that joth is the leader. She expressed a strong town read on me yesterday, and it would explain her behaviour, which I would categorize as being pro-town but also anxious about her survival.

joth, if I'm right, I think you should claim now. You're in a pretty bad position (sorry) so probably your best hope at this point is going to be to rely on town protection.

Swing and a miss. Sorry. Or ... not sorry?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on January 22, 2019, 10:19:50 pm
Anander literally fights herself in the books. And one faction of her is the primary villain. I don’t think WCD’s assumption is scummy in the least.

Ah, OK. Sorry Didds, I probably shouldn't try to scumhunt based on flavour I'm not familiar with.

No worries.

There are are lots of Aananders in the book, some that are Breq is working for an some she is working against. If you are confused, its because it is confusing, not because I am scummy. The whole point of me talking about the book is to try to help flesh out what we might be dealing with.

I know that the Radchaii that Breq represents are what we know is town. These Radchaii started as part of Aanander and believe that the empire has expanded enough and that humans employees should be used to staff the ships instead of ancillaries of the AIs (conquered humans whose brains have been replaced with AI connections- corpse warriors). Everything else I am uncertain about.

There are three possibilities that I can think of for either third party or scum.
1. The other side of Aanander Minaii who want to keep expanding and conquering. In the book there are characters who follow this part if Aanander like Hetnys, the religious leader whose name I forget, and Tisserwat until she gets changed
2. The Presgar- aliens who built this super powerful gun and who have the capability to wipe out humans, but are bound by a treaty not to. There are two Presgar translaters who interact/work with Breq in the books
3. The Notai, who are in a ship beyond the ghost gate. They have been buying human bodies to use for ancillaries that were stolen and sold illegally by  Hetnys (I think).

Glooble, space, anyone else who has read the books....please feel free to correct or amend.

If Aanander tried to recruit Hyper and is about to kill him, it must be the expansionist Aanander. Interestingly, I think Hetnys (Asher) would be in that faction.  So, e and Ash together in the faction is an interesting possibility, for sure, and is kind of genius, right?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: mail-mi on January 22, 2019, 10:41:27 pm
I don't want to derail anything, but at the same time I don't see any reason to delay this, so I'm going to claim now. I don't think this should really impact how we play out the rest of the Day anyways.

I have been targeted for an alignment change. I have decided not to accept this change, and consequently I will die at the end of the Day. I have made this decision since I am a VT, and I think that publicizing this information and dying gives me a better chance of winning than does changing my alignment.

The alignment change would transfer me to a faction which is not considered an enemy of the Radch. The win condition of this faction is for all enemies of the Radch to be eliminated, and for a certain player (whose identity I do not know) to survive. This unknown player must be the only surviving Anaander Mianaai for this faction to win. I do not know if joining the faction would make me an Anaander Mianaai, or whether multiple Anaander Mianaai of different factions currently exist.

I just read over Hypercube's post again, and this is noteworthy. Do you think there's more than one Anaander Miannai out there? This would make sense, and from what y'all've said about the flavor, that also makes sense.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Swowl on January 23, 2019, 12:46:54 am
Good morning, folks!

Hi Haddock....in your giant post you quoted me and said that in regard to plan discussions that I had completely missed the point. So, uhm, yeah....that is accurate. I’m newish to the game (this is my 5th game) and something’s that are obvious to others take me awhile to work out. I think I miss the point of posts quite a bit at first, but improve with time....or at least that is my hope.

I am still confused about how Asher got lynched with only 5 votes so far from the deadline. Is there a power that can end the day, and then it’s the plurality vote? Is that more likely than two people having an extra vote? And did Asher’s shot give her immunity?

You may have missed it, but I claimed the 5 vote lynch part.  I two took less votes to lynch than normal.

Did it take 2 less to lynch you because you used your shot, or was that inevitable?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Swowl on January 23, 2019, 12:49:41 am
I wish I was an SK here.  MVP win last time out.

It's been a long time since I've played a game with joth, I think.  What I don't remember is if shutdown-ignore everything-confirmation bias joth is scum!joth or town!joth.

As most would know, I'm always happy to get lynched just to say I told you so.  My green flip just proves you wrong and proves me right.

vote: ash

What are you attempting to prove here? Why would you vote yourself?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Swowl on January 23, 2019, 12:53:37 am
I basically completely believe that Ash is town at this point, and I'm definitely leaning towards voting for joth for SK hunting etc..

One thing I wanted to point out is this post when Swan jumps off the Ash wagon:

So, here’s what I don’t get... Why did Ashersky kill mcmc when she did? Especially when she didn’t think she was scum? It’s seems pretty anti-town to choose the only marginally largest wagon with a full day left to talk before DL and shoot before letting her claim or allowing more votes to coalesce before the kill. Especially if she really thought Glooble was more scummy.

I’m not trying to be dense (I’m still kinda new at this), so it would help if someone could explain to me how that shot at this time helps town.

Hetnys, in the books, is Radchaii but is also not regally on the right side of things and end up being held hostage by Breq (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancillary_Sword).

I am assuming there is a modifier on ashes role where “they have to shoot or X happens”.... prettty much bc i agree with you that thier actions don’t make a ton of sense as skum. Draws way too much attention.

Unvote

It's weird to me since Swan is saying that she agrees with WCD that Ash's actions don't make sense as scum (which I agree with), but in the post that Swan is actually quoting WCD is making the case that Ash is scum. So, it reads to me like Swan was really looking for an excuse to jump off that wagon.

I'm not sure if that means anything (it seemed more important before Ash claimed double-hated), but I figured I'd point it out anyways.

I was playing catch up and this was the quote I was on - just wanted to make sure it was being directed at WCD.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Swowl on January 23, 2019, 01:00:59 am
Is there anything else you can tell us about it hypercube?

The third faction could win alongside town, however if the leader dies all its members will be endgamed and die as well.

So, the third faction is a potential ally to town or a serious potential liability down the road. I'm not really sure how to approach the question of whether to hunt them or not.

So this makes me feel like there is a person out there that can recruit players to a "town kind of aligned third faction" which can actually work against town. Example being if on, let's say, Day 4 They have recruited 3 people... and then we kill the recruiting player... that would mean Town (or "not skum") would lose 4 heads on the spot. Just something to keep in mind.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Swowl on January 23, 2019, 01:05:03 am
Yeah this flavor is messing with me a little bit because I do not know it at all. Trying to comprehend it, but essentially I do not see how Ashes can be skum if it is not both E! and Ashes. I need to just vanilla read back Day 1 to see who I think is skummy while dropping my lack of understanding of the flavor.. so that will come shortly.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: 2.71828..... on January 23, 2019, 01:20:10 am
Yeah, really not a fan of hypercube trying to figure out who the survivor-cult leader is.  I am of the strong opinion that they should remain anonymous.

SK hunting may be townie to a certain extent, but survivor hunting is just not really worth it. Need to just find the scum.

And I need to reread a bit based on all the new information
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: 2.71828..... on January 23, 2019, 02:48:50 am
Another thing, flavor has identifying characteristics, but it will not win the game for us, so I wouldn't focus on it too much
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: LaLight on January 23, 2019, 03:14:03 am
Ashersky is Radch-aligned.

And yeah, sounds like a very interesting survivor role for the 3rd party. Wonder if they can recruit scum too?

This will break the game if we agree that faust would not make the game where scum do not know each other. I think the point that they will die if they recruit scum is also not really believable.

Maybe they get Hated? :)
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: LaLight on January 23, 2019, 03:15:27 am
My thought now is to use them to basically establish an IC each day? Accept the change in alignment, you stay alive, but we count things like lylo in light of the fact that a single NK could eliminate 2-3 or more players

Do we have any reason to believe the members of this faction just straight up die when their leader does? My assumption would be they're still in the game, they just can't win.

"They're still in a game and just can't win" doesn't work. People are not motivated, they won't play. I think there was an example of smth like this in Bastard Mafia but I don't remember which one. Dying altogether... Well, I guess there is like 2 or 3 of them and they need to keep their boss alive if they don't they die so for a faction of 2 or 3 people that'd work.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: LaLight on January 23, 2019, 03:16:42 am
Catch-up thought #1: Why weren't any of the people posting today before Joth did asking about why he's hated? I had originally asked myself "why is nobody talking about this", and then it seemed a bit odd that Joth himself had to end up being the one to bring it up.

I don't see the point of asking, by anyone or even by Joth himself. If some town role did it they will just say "Sorry joth that was me", if scum did it, they won't confess, so we mostly are talking about stuff that can be somehow deduced and spoken about
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: LaLight on January 23, 2019, 03:18:04 am
Another thing, flavor has identifying characteristics, but it will not win the game for us, so I wouldn't focus on it too much

Yeah, all this flavor talk is really cool and all, but i am afraid those who are familiar will narrow their vision based on flavor. faust wouldn't ever make a game which can be solved based on flavor, or any parts of the game solved by flavor, so i think this is just harmful to talk about it so much. I try to treat this game as flavorless when i reread
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: LaLight on January 23, 2019, 03:19:12 am
my vote for ash in the end of the previous day was like that because I messed up all the timings and still thought it was EoD even in the start of D2 and I thought there was no time left at all. I also had a little time on my hands, I was sure ash is scum so i voted and disappeared
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: LaLight on January 23, 2019, 03:19:58 am
Joth's SK hunting was a little bit suspicious, but I liked the justification of it
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: LaLight on January 23, 2019, 03:20:09 am
vote: 2.71828.....
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: LaLight on January 23, 2019, 03:20:43 am
1-shot cop is also something I would expect useful for the guys who can't recruit scum.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: LaLight on January 23, 2019, 03:21:44 am
oh, and we don't have any reason to believe it's 1-shot. Survivor-cult-cop is so beautifully elegant
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: ashersky on January 23, 2019, 06:13:00 am
I think questions for me were all about the Hated?  Trade off for shooting.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: ashersky on January 23, 2019, 06:14:46 am
For the record, I take credit for the mcmc shot. I was just explaining how I chose my target when talking about shooting the biggest wagon.

For the record, I would have shot Gloob or Space if I chose on my own.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: ashersky on January 23, 2019, 06:17:16 am
True Cult Leader role would result in mass death if it dies. Close to BM, too. I’d assume some protection from that.

The explanation we saw makes it sound like multiple players have Aanander as a flavor name, probably as different alignments.

I think we just ignore them.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: LaLight on January 23, 2019, 07:05:31 am
The explanation we saw makes it sound like multiple players have Aanander as a flavor name, probably as different alignments.

oh i haven't thought about that. interesting point
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: ashersky on January 23, 2019, 07:58:03 am
To expand on a theory based on a claim that is unconfirmed but seems crazy if fake...

Let's say there are three Aananders: green, red, and blue.  For the cult to win, both green and red Aananders have to die AND all threats to town have to be nullified.

If that's the case, it's in the Cult's best interest to play like town, except for lynching gA.  rA dies when scum is removed from the game, leaving bA.  At some point, someone in the Cult could decide to claim and say ask for gA to sacrifice themselves -- probably near endgame and with rA being dead.

This is just a spitball setup creation sort of thing.  If the modified towncult is the centerpiece of the setup, you build around it.  Aanander (clone?) cops, for example, could be a thing (i.e., each night you may target a player; if they share a flavor name with another player, you will be informed of that fact).  Then the cop doesn't even need to know it's A, although flavor tells you that maybe.

Anyway.  The danger here is if the Cult is actually a Cult, then it wouldn't share town's wincon.  They could win separately and the game ends, or they leave.  Then we'd be left having played for them.

So, if anything, any and all Cult related matters should be dealt with in a manner to further the green wincon, not theirs.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: 2.71828..... on January 23, 2019, 08:04:43 am
So, if anything, any and all Cult related matters should be dealt with in a manner to further the green wincon, not theirs.

Which is why I am really happy about hypercube's decision to reject the cult. He dies, flips green, and we can totally trust everything he has said
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: hypercube on January 23, 2019, 08:18:01 am
I'm not really a fan of most people not voting (including me), so I did a quick reread to try and fix that. I came to the conclusion that I should vote: mail-me.

I think her case against joth (521-522) is kind of scummy and OMGUS. A lot of it is just fluff I think rather than actual reasons why joth is scum. I also don't like her vote placement D1, she spends most of her time voting for me and joth, who I think were the two players who would most likely look like mislynches to scum.

Also her reaction to ash's shot was very null, and it seemed like she didn't really consider what it meant regarding ash's alignment until she was challenged on it.

It's not an amazing case by any means. But I couldn't find a better one either.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: hypercube on January 23, 2019, 08:26:00 am
Sorry that should be vote: mail-mi of course.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: hypercube on January 23, 2019, 08:30:04 am
So, if anything, any and all Cult related matters should be dealt with in a manner to further the green wincon, not theirs.

Which is why I am really happy about hypercube's decision to reject the cult. He dies, flips green, and we can totally trust everything he has said

Yes, to be clear, everything I said about the cult came directly from faust, so once I am dead there should be no reason to doubt it.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on January 23, 2019, 08:32:17 am
If we have a townie Green Anaander, would she maybe have the ability to rescue Hyper, or any future townies who're taken by the other coloured factions Ash posits? That would be helpful for keeping the possibility of late-game mass-die-offs in check.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on January 23, 2019, 08:37:00 am
Bummed that my biggest towmread is dying at the end of the day.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: LaLight on January 23, 2019, 08:47:02 am
Bummed that my biggest towmread is dying at the end of the day.

Was that intentional?..
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Glooble on January 23, 2019, 08:57:06 am

It's not an amazing case by any means. But I couldn't find a better one either.


Did you consider LaLight? On my reread she really felt like someone voting opportunistically and trying to stay off people's radars.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Glooble on January 23, 2019, 08:59:38 am
That being said I haven't had time to go through with a fine-toothed comb and really build a case. But has she done anything that screams town to any of you?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: LaLight on January 23, 2019, 09:08:44 am

It's not an amazing case by any means. But I couldn't find a better one either.


Did you consider LaLight? On my reread she really felt like someone voting opportunistically and trying to stay off people's radars.

I haven't had enough time to read, it was the end of Czech Mafia, a lot was going on, so I skimmed, saw something that looked like a decent case and voted. Basically that's it. I now will participate more
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: mail-mi on January 23, 2019, 09:11:39 am
I'm not really a fan of most people not voting (including me), so I did a quick reread to try and fix that. I came to the conclusion that I should vote: mail-me.

I think her case against joth (521-522) is kind of scummy and OMGUS. A lot of it is just fluff I think rather than actual reasons why joth is scum. I also don't like her vote placement D1, she spends most of her time voting for me and joth, who I think were the two players who would most likely look like mislynches to scum.

Also her reaction to ash's shot was very null, and it seemed like she didn't really consider what it meant regarding ash's alignment until she was challenged on it.

It's not an amazing case by any means. But I couldn't find a better one either.

It was less a case and more a reread that turned into a case by the end of it.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on January 23, 2019, 09:13:37 am
That being said I haven't had time to go through with a fine-toothed comb and really build a case. But has she done anything that screams town to any of you?

One of the things I am having a hard time processing about LL is how completely he missed the replacement, EOD extension, Asher shot, Asher quick lynch. It felt so dramatic to me when it happened, and such a game-changer...but maybe because I was in at the time? I don’t know, but it seems like the kind of oversight scum would make because why does he care how long we have when his vote is on the leading town wagon?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: LaLight on January 23, 2019, 09:18:48 am
actually I missed only the extension, talking about it. There is no point in saying "oh my god the shot" "oh my god the flip", because people were already talking about it and i don't feel like I can add much to the discussion
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: hypercube on January 23, 2019, 09:21:15 am

It's not an amazing case by any means. But I couldn't find a better one either.


Did you consider LaLight? On my reread she really felt like someone voting opportunistically and trying to stay off people's radars.

LL is pretty much just null to me. I'm willing to give her a pass for D1 based on being busy with Czech mafia stuff. I did think the part where she came up with a plan and then immediately realized that it was terrible was somewhat towny.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: hypercube on January 23, 2019, 09:36:55 am
Anyways, I'll post a reads list while things are fresh in my mind

1. SpaceAnemone: Pretty towny D1, hasn't done much D2. Nullish town overall
2. jotheonah: I'm fairly sure she's town at this point
3. LaLight: Null
4. DatSwan: Started an argument with Awa (which I thought felt like it could be staged), asks a lot of questions which don't seem particularily incisive. Nullish scum, probably where I'd be voting if I wasn't voting for mail-mi right now
5. mail-mi: Nullish scum
6. Awaclus: Townish null
7. 2.71828.....: Pretty towny. I don't like that people just agreed with her cop claim uncritically but overall I think signs point to her being town
8. WestCoastDidds: Nullish town
9. Robz888: Hasn't done much other than vote for my wagon (which is bad). Nullish scum
10. hypercube: that's me irl
11. ashersky: Town
12. Haddock: I like what I've seen so far, so I'll give her a town read for now
13. Glooble: A good number of towny posts and a decent number of scummy posts. Was on my wagon, mcmc's wagon, and ash's wagon, which is kind of scummy. Probably a townish null read but not a terrible lynch choice since lots of people have expressed opinions on her.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on January 23, 2019, 09:37:42 am

It's not an amazing case by any means. But I couldn't find a better one either.


Did you consider LaLight? On my reread she really felt like someone voting opportunistically and trying to stay off people's radars.

LL is pretty much just null to me. I'm willing to give her a pass for D1 based on being busy with Czech mafia stuff. I did think the part where she came up with a plan and then immediately realized that it was terrible was somewhat towny.

I agree but I give LaLight just enough credit to do that on purpose as scum, especially right out of the gate. Last game we planned a little bit of D1 banter during N0.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Haddock on January 23, 2019, 09:46:10 am
I'm not really a fan of most people not voting (including me), so I did a quick reread to try and fix that. I came to the conclusion that I should vote: mail-me.

I think her case against joth (521-522) is kind of scummy and OMGUS. A lot of it is just fluff I think rather than actual reasons why joth is scum. I also don't like her vote placement D1, she spends most of her time voting for me and joth, who I think were the two players who would most likely look like mislynches to scum.

Also her reaction to ash's shot was very null, and it seemed like she didn't really consider what it meant regarding ash's alignment until she was challenged on it.

It's not an amazing case by any means. But I couldn't find a better one either.
What makes you so certain joth is town?

I do tend to agree that the mail-mi vs joth thing looks bad for one of them, I just come down on the side of joth coming out looking worse.

Swan is looking scummier atm, but i remember finding swan scummy in previous games too.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: hypercube on January 23, 2019, 09:53:23 am
What makes you so certain joth is town?

Maybe it's because she keeps buddying me!

Well, mostly it's because she's been under a lot of pressure and I think she's handled it pretty well overall. She's not playing afraid of people scumreading her, which I like. I also think the cases she's built have been reasonable, and seemed to reflect town thinking.

I'm not so certain of this that I think joth is above scrutiny; certainly if mail-mi flipped town that would cause me to reevaluate my read on joth.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Glooble on January 23, 2019, 12:44:59 pm
The only reason I'm not voting ashersky is I think he's unlikely to be scum with that power. But that leaves me thinking she's town that's playing really badly, and that doesn't sit super well with me with what I know of ashersky.

It has no bearing at this juncture, but we often discuss having vig shots directed.  But there is thecscum element there that can’t be erased. Instead, I used the flow of day and the votes.

Honestly, if I had chosen by myself, I’d have shot Glooble.

This makes zero sense to me. Ash is saying "I didn't want to have town direct my shot, because then scum would manipulate it." (so far so good). So instead, I let myself be guided by the top wagon, because clearly there's no possibility that scum is manipulating that.

(I am of course being sarcastic. There is every possibility that the largest day one wagon is on town and being manipulated by scum, in fact it's much, much more likely than not.)

Someone convince me that ashersky could be scum without the set up being broken because I badly want to vote for her.

I played a normal game on another site where scum team had 1 dayvig shot. Also maybe they should forgo the nk now. Or he’s a third party. Pick one

LaLight sure is quick to give joth a reason to vote for ash.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on January 23, 2019, 01:23:13 pm
So we still have nearly a week before deadline, which is kind of nice.

request vote count

Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on January 23, 2019, 01:49:56 pm
It's a little disappointing that folks have fallen off, but perhaps the lack of urgency + real life will do that.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: hypercube on January 23, 2019, 02:00:46 pm
The only reason I'm not voting ashersky is I think he's unlikely to be scum with that power. But that leaves me thinking she's town that's playing really badly, and that doesn't sit super well with me with what I know of ashersky.

It has no bearing at this juncture, but we often discuss having vig shots directed.  But there is thecscum element there that can’t be erased. Instead, I used the flow of day and the votes.

Honestly, if I had chosen by myself, I’d have shot Glooble.

This makes zero sense to me. Ash is saying "I didn't want to have town direct my shot, because then scum would manipulate it." (so far so good). So instead, I let myself be guided by the top wagon, because clearly there's no possibility that scum is manipulating that.

(I am of course being sarcastic. There is every possibility that the largest day one wagon is on town and being manipulated by scum, in fact it's much, much more likely than not.)

Someone convince me that ashersky could be scum without the set up being broken because I badly want to vote for her.

I played a normal game on another site where scum team had 1 dayvig shot. Also maybe they should forgo the nk now. Or he’s a third party. Pick one

LaLight sure is quick to give joth a reason to vote for ash.

LL, why did you think scum maybe should forgo the nk?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: LaLight on January 23, 2019, 02:26:02 pm
The only reason I'm not voting ashersky is I think he's unlikely to be scum with that power. But that leaves me thinking she's town that's playing really badly, and that doesn't sit super well with me with what I know of ashersky.

It has no bearing at this juncture, but we often discuss having vig shots directed.  But there is thecscum element there that can’t be erased. Instead, I used the flow of day and the votes.

Honestly, if I had chosen by myself, I’d have shot Glooble.

This makes zero sense to me. Ash is saying "I didn't want to have town direct my shot, because then scum would manipulate it." (so far so good). So instead, I let myself be guided by the top wagon, because clearly there's no possibility that scum is manipulating that.

(I am of course being sarcastic. There is every possibility that the largest day one wagon is on town and being manipulated by scum, in fact it's much, much more likely than not.)

Someone convince me that ashersky could be scum without the set up being broken because I badly want to vote for her.

I played a normal game on another site where scum team had 1 dayvig shot. Also maybe they should forgo the nk now. Or he’s a third party. Pick one

LaLight sure is quick to give joth a reason to vote for ash.

LL, why did you think scum maybe should forgo the nk?

What I've meant there was that they could go with a dayvig shot but then they'll be prohibited to use NK. Sorry, sometimes non-nativeness is seen
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: LaLight on January 23, 2019, 02:26:53 pm
The only reason I'm not voting ashersky is I think he's unlikely to be scum with that power. But that leaves me thinking she's town that's playing really badly, and that doesn't sit super well with me with what I know of ashersky.

It has no bearing at this juncture, but we often discuss having vig shots directed.  But there is thecscum element there that can’t be erased. Instead, I used the flow of day and the votes.

Honestly, if I had chosen by myself, I’d have shot Glooble.

This makes zero sense to me. Ash is saying "I didn't want to have town direct my shot, because then scum would manipulate it." (so far so good). So instead, I let myself be guided by the top wagon, because clearly there's no possibility that scum is manipulating that.

(I am of course being sarcastic. There is every possibility that the largest day one wagon is on town and being manipulated by scum, in fact it's much, much more likely than not.)

Someone convince me that ashersky could be scum without the set up being broken because I badly want to vote for her.

I played a normal game on another site where scum team had 1 dayvig shot. Also maybe they should forgo the nk now. Or he’s a third party. Pick one

LaLight sure is quick to give joth a reason to vote for ash.

yeah, because being a dayvig is not the same as being IC. All things considered it's much more suspicious that joth asked for justifying his reasons to vote for ash
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Haddock on January 23, 2019, 02:32:09 pm
What makes you so certain joth is town?

Maybe it's because she keeps buddying me!

Well, mostly it's because she's been under a lot of pressure and I think she's handled it pretty well overall. She's not playing afraid of people scumreading her, which I like. I also think the cases she's built have been reasonable, and seemed to reflect town thinking.

I'm not so certain of this that I think joth is above scrutiny; certainly if mail-mi flipped town that would cause me to reevaluate my read on joth.
She was definitely playing afraid earlier. All through d1 and into early d2.  Less so now maybe.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Glooble on January 23, 2019, 02:46:31 pm

yeah, because being a dayvig is not the same as being IC. All things considered it's much more suspicious that joth asked for justifying his reasons to vote for ash

I also didn't think ash was IC (obviously I was on her wagon.) But I was mostly pointing out that you jumped in to answer joth's question minutes after he posted it. It seems, as I mentioned earlier, opportunistic. I'll buy the excuse that you were in a much more tense other game as a reason for not jumping in more. But it seems like you did jump in very quickly when you had a chance to persuade someone to be on ash's wagon.

That being said, Jonah's hedging in that exchange also comes off kinda scummy. Like he's trying to give himself deniability in the event ash turns up town.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: mail-mi on January 23, 2019, 03:15:35 pm
i like glooble's thoughts about lalight and joth so far. Need to take some time to put my own thoughts together about non-joth, non-ash, and non-e people.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: faust on January 23, 2019, 03:28:39 pm
Vote Count 2.2

jotheonah (2): 2.71828....., mail-mi
mail-mi (2): jotheonah, hypercube
LaLight (1): Glooble
Robz888 (1): Haddock
2.71828..... (1): LaLight

Not Voting (6): SpaceAnemone, DatSwan, Awaclus, WestCoastDidds, Robz888, ashersky

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch. Day 2 ends on January 29, 2019, 01:00:00 am.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on January 23, 2019, 03:36:47 pm
Dayvig as a scum power seems too powerful to exist in a balanced game. So I did think the shot pointed heavily toward ash being town. I didn't think about it being instead of the nightkill or a third-party.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on January 23, 2019, 03:38:45 pm
vote: 2.71828.....

1-shot cop is also something I would expect useful for the guys who can't recruit scum.

oh, and we don't have any reason to believe it's 1-shot. Survivor-cult-cop is so beautifully elegant

We should talk about the fact that LaLight voted for the claimed cop and her justification is that e's claimed power makes her likely to be part of the recruiter faction (which is explicitly not scum). LaLight, why are you voting for someone you don't think is scum?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on January 23, 2019, 03:44:03 pm
Anyways, I'll post a reads list while things are fresh in my mind

1. SpaceAnemone: Pretty towny D1, hasn't done much D2. Nullish town overall
2. jotheonah: I'm fairly sure she's town at this point
3. LaLight: Null
4. DatSwan: Started an argument with Awa (which I thought felt like it could be staged), asks a lot of questions which don't seem particularily incisive. Nullish scum, probably where I'd be voting if I wasn't voting for mail-mi right now
5. mail-mi: Nullish scum
6. Awaclus: Townish null
7. 2.71828.....: Pretty towny. I don't like that people just agreed with her cop claim uncritically but overall I think signs point to her being town
8. WestCoastDidds: Nullish town
9. Robz888: Hasn't done much other than vote for my wagon (which is bad). Nullish scum
10. hypercube: that's me irl
11. ashersky: Town
12. Haddock: I like what I've seen so far, so I'll give her a town read for now
13. Glooble: A good number of towny posts and a decent number of scummy posts. Was on my wagon, mcmc's wagon, and ash's wagon, which is kind of scummy. Probably a townish null read but not a terrible lynch choice since lots of people have expressed opinions on her.

I'm digging this list, although i'd put LL in the scumish list, too. I had originally found Swan towny, but increasingly not so much. Same with mail-mi. None of this are super well defined....mostly just a sense of things.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Glooble on January 23, 2019, 03:50:16 pm
I would be happy to start an LL wagon. I also think we should be looking at Robz.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on January 23, 2019, 04:03:23 pm
Robz said she was swamped at work so maybe we give him a minute.... But at some point, dude.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: hypercube on January 23, 2019, 04:22:16 pm
What makes you so certain joth is town?

Maybe it's because she keeps buddying me!

Well, mostly it's because she's been under a lot of pressure and I think she's handled it pretty well overall. She's not playing afraid of people scumreading her, which I like. I also think the cases she's built have been reasonable, and seemed to reflect town thinking.

I'm not so certain of this that I think joth is above scrutiny; certainly if mail-mi flipped town that would cause me to reevaluate my read on joth.
She was definitely playing afraid earlier. All through d1 and into early d2.  Less so now maybe.

She was defensive I thought but not afraid. If you're afraid you probably don't keep doing things like blatant SK hunting.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on January 23, 2019, 06:46:31 pm
I would be happy to start an LL wagon. I also think we should be looking at Robz.

I think LL's thing about criticizing Joth for SK-hunting (which was mostly directed at Ash), then scumreading e because e's role was just the sort of thing that the apparent recruiter faction would have is almost too lazy to be scummy. It also misses that e and Ash are kind of linked by e's claimed PR result on Ash, which I don't think he'd feel the need to claim as scum. That is, unless e and Ash are on the same scum/recruiter faction.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on January 23, 2019, 06:47:46 pm
I think it's most productive to reserve judgement on e and Ash till later, given that they're now linked kind of, so if one flips anything other than town, we should reevaluate the other. There are lots of players we have less information or constraints than that on.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on January 23, 2019, 06:48:40 pm
Robz said she was swamped at work so maybe we give him a minute.... But at some point, dude.

I do think it's worth us keeping him in game-consciousness, because nothing about being busy makes him any less likely to be scum.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on January 23, 2019, 07:06:28 pm
I do tend to agree that the mail-mi vs joth thing looks bad for one of them, I just come down on the side of joth coming out looking worse.

I've been re-reading you. This was from post #612, and it feels like quite a retrograde step in your reasoning... what was going on with that?

Back at post #512 you'd said joth was talking you around, after your compliment on his mail-mi case at #507. You had voted for joth at #453, but then unvoted (and switched to Robz) at #568, which was all before this post saying that joth is the more suspicious one of a pair where things look really bad for one of them. Do things look even worse than that for Robz, being a nullish lurker?

Also, you used a smiley at #570, so you pretty much scum ;-)
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on January 23, 2019, 07:19:29 pm
While I remember, Haddock will be at my place tomorrow evening for Games Night, so I won't even be booting my laptop while he's around, just to keep f.ds and RL properly separate. That means my content tomorrow will probably be minimal. Sorry!
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: mail-mi on January 23, 2019, 08:15:26 pm
While I remember, Haddock will be at my place tomorrow evening for Games Night, so I won't even be booting my laptop while he's around, just to keep f.ds and RL properly separate. That means my content tomorrow will probably be minimal. Sorry!

Another twinclaim!
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: mail-mi on January 23, 2019, 08:16:04 pm
Robz said she was swamped at work so maybe we give him a minute.... But at some point, dude.

I do think it's worth us keeping him in game-consciousness, because nothing about being busy makes him any less likely to be scum.

I agree with this, but I also feel like scum!robz would put a little more effort into the game. So he's a decidedly null lurker to me rn
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on January 23, 2019, 08:29:16 pm
While I remember, Haddock will be at my place tomorrow evening for Games Night, so I won't even be booting my laptop while he's around, just to keep f.ds and RL properly separate. That means my content tomorrow will probably be minimal. Sorry!

Ohhh! Fun!! I love the IRL stuff.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: LaLight on January 24, 2019, 03:51:39 am

yeah, because being a dayvig is not the same as being IC. All things considered it's much more suspicious that joth asked for justifying his reasons to vote for ash

I also didn't think ash was IC (obviously I was on her wagon.) But I was mostly pointing out that you jumped in to answer joth's question minutes after he posted it. It seems, as I mentioned earlier, opportunistic. I'll buy the excuse that you were in a much more tense other game as a reason for not jumping in more. But it seems like you did jump in very quickly when you had a chance to persuade someone to be on ash's wagon.

That being said, Jonah's hedging in that exchange also comes off kinda scummy. Like he's trying to give himself deniability in the event ash turns up town.

So you're saying every other wagon was on my scum partner, so ash was my only way to derail everything? No. I just thought ash is scum. And mostly think so now. Maybe third-party, but i don't think ash is town.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: LaLight on January 24, 2019, 03:52:54 am
I would be happy to start an LL wagon. I also think we should be looking at Robz.

I think LL's thing about criticizing Joth for SK-hunting (which was mostly directed at Ash), then scumreading e because e's role was just the sort of thing that the apparent recruiter faction would have is almost too lazy to be scummy. It also misses that e and Ash are kind of linked by e's claimed PR result on Ash, which I don't think he'd feel the need to claim as scum. That is, unless e and Ash are on the same scum/recruiter faction.

yeah well, e could theoretically claim that if he really had the cop shot and copped ash, because if/when ash flips town, we will believe e, not so much if e will say "i copped him N1' afterwards. That is basically why I vote for e and not ash.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: LaLight on January 24, 2019, 03:55:06 am
also i would definitely vote Robz here. I mean, IRL stuff, i get it, but somehow i have an impression that in the last like 10? games Robz heavily lurked when he was scum. I think it started after M100.

yeah, let's try this: vote: Robz

Anyway if he comes here and sees the kind of wagon on him, his reaction will be more sincere
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: LaLight on January 24, 2019, 03:56:42 am
vote: 2.71828.....

1-shot cop is also something I would expect useful for the guys who can't recruit scum.

oh, and we don't have any reason to believe it's 1-shot. Survivor-cult-cop is so beautifully elegant

We should talk about the fact that LaLight voted for the claimed cop and her justification is that e's claimed power makes her likely to be part of the recruiter faction (which is explicitly not scum). LaLight, why are you voting for someone you don't think is scum?

let's talk about this.

The third party who is explicitly not scum? This doesn't work. they have their own win condition. And YOU (unless you're with them) do not know it.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: LaLight on January 24, 2019, 04:00:16 am
I see what hyper have said. But it still rubs me the wrong way. Third-parties do not work with town. maybe faust overrode this somehow, but then why wouldn't one of those third-party guys told us so? Why wouldn't hyper then convert and claim basically the same thing, but staying alive? if they are not the enemy, that is. hyper would be alive, scum would need to kill one more person. But no, hyper declined and we lose a person, who in any case would help town, being either town or so-called helping third party
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: LaLight on January 24, 2019, 04:01:37 am
sorry, I'm all over the place. tl;dr Hypercube could stay alive, changing alignment and still be quasitown, if and only if we believe that this third-party is non harmful for town.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: LaLight on January 24, 2019, 04:03:13 am
oh also i remembered a thing I was thinking yesterday: WCD said that I am not acive therefore scummy, but how does this make sense if she remembers Adventure Time Mafia, where I was one of the most active members?

my level of activity has nothing to do with my alignment
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: LaLight on January 24, 2019, 04:05:32 am
I am yet to see scum!notsurvivor!WCD, but this looks like she's trying to make the case on me, without actually voting me and seeing if someone picks up on that.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: LaLight on January 24, 2019, 04:08:05 am
anyway, I want to stay on Robz and i encourage you to build a wagon on him when he gets back
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Awaclus on January 24, 2019, 04:14:02 am
Sure. Vote: Robz
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Haddock on January 24, 2019, 04:52:03 am
I do tend to agree that the mail-mi vs joth thing looks bad for one of them, I just come down on the side of joth coming out looking worse.

I've been re-reading you. This was from post #612, and it feels like quite a retrograde step in your reasoning... what was going on with that?

Back at post #512 you'd said joth was talking you around, after your compliment on his mail-mi case at #507. You had voted for joth at #453, but then unvoted (and switched to Robz) at #568, which was all before this post saying that joth is the more suspicious one of a pair where things look really bad for one of them. Do things look even worse than that for Robz, being a nullish lurker?

Also, you used a smiley at #570, so you pretty much scum ;-)

I'm undecided, basically. I think their fight makes one of them look bad and joth comes out looking worse. But joth has down town things lately so I'm reserving judgement. But yeah if you made me pick one of them to vote for it would absolutely be joth.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Haddock on January 24, 2019, 04:53:16 am
"done town things"*.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Haddock on January 24, 2019, 05:06:57 am

yeah, because being a dayvig is not the same as being IC. All things considered it's much more suspicious that joth asked for justifying his reasons to vote for ash

I also didn't think ash was IC (obviously I was on her wagon.) But I was mostly pointing out that you jumped in to answer joth's question minutes after he posted it. It seems, as I mentioned earlier, opportunistic. I'll buy the excuse that you were in a much more tense other game as a reason for not jumping in more. But it seems like you did jump in very quickly when you had a chance to persuade someone to be on ash's wagon.

That being said, Jonah's hedging in that exchange also comes off kinda scummy. Like he's trying to give himself deniability in the event ash turns up town.

So you're saying every other wagon was on my scum partner, so ash was my only way to derail everything? No. I just thought ash is scum. And mostly think so now. Maybe third-party, but i don't think ash is town.
Nyeh. Thing is, ash's behaviour and apparent role doesn't seem to me to be consistent with the Aanander faction, whatever's going on with them. If he's nontown and non scum (and assuming there's a scum faction other than Aanander, which I admit is a  big assumption), then you're essentially suggesting he's 4th party?
Just not seeing it, especially in light of a positive cop result.
vote: 2.71828.....

1-shot cop is also something I would expect useful for the guys who can't recruit scum.

oh, and we don't have any reason to believe it's 1-shot. Survivor-cult-cop is so beautifully elegant

We should talk about the fact that LaLight voted for the claimed cop and her justification is that e's claimed power makes her likely to be part of the recruiter faction (which is explicitly not scum). LaLight, why are you voting for someone you don't think is scum?

let's talk about this.

The third party who is explicitly not scum? This doesn't work. they have their own win condition. And YOU (unless you're with them) do not know it.
Agree with this. We don't actually have any solid information on the Aanander win con.

Well, actually:  hyper, is it possible you've been deceived, or is the information you've been given mod-confirmed?



Other news: I'm happy to continue the robz wagon as a proderator, but am conflicted now. The timing of the recent robz votes has a whiff of scum-pushing easy wagon.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on January 24, 2019, 05:24:00 am
While I remember, Haddock will be at my place tomorrow evening for Games Night, so I won't even be booting my laptop while he's around, just to keep f.ds and RL properly separate. That means my content tomorrow will probably be minimal. Sorry!

Another twinclaim!

I did mention it as soon as he joined the thread, just in case it altered anyone's reads of us:

Not quite another twinclaim, but Haddock is the IRL friend who got me into f.ds mafia several years ago.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: ashersky on January 24, 2019, 05:33:05 am
LL was super odd in that string of posts.  LL's usually a good ash-reader, too, but I guess it's been awhile.

Robz votes are scummy in that they aren't based on anything but not being here.  Robz's "I'm busy IRL" did come in the game thread and not the VLA thread, so it is possible he's lying, I guess, but has anyone really played that card (ever?).  It's one thing to not post for awhile and then fudge the excuse as IRL busy-ness, but to proactively lie about a plan to skip some days is a bit over-the-top, and not very Robzlike.

So yeah.  Boo on that whole thought process.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: LaLight on January 24, 2019, 05:37:41 am
LL was super odd in that string of posts.  LL's usually a good ash-reader, too, but I guess it's been awhile.

Robz votes are scummy in that they aren't based on anything but not being here.  Robz's "I'm busy IRL" did come in the game thread and not the VLA thread, so it is possible he's lying, I guess, but has anyone really played that card (ever?).  It's one thing to not post for awhile and then fudge the excuse as IRL busy-ness, but to proactively lie about a plan to skip some days is a bit over-the-top, and not very Robzlike.

So yeah.  Boo on that whole thought process.

I am a good ash-reader? Since when? I remember Breaking Bad game it was awful back then.

Also I am not trying to lynch Robz.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: ashersky on January 24, 2019, 05:39:02 am
On this possible cult alignment thing...

Cults are generally BM only.  To make it work in this game, faust would have to at least announce the possibility of alignment changes (he did), work out a way to make sure alignment changes didn't affect the previous alignment negatively (which would mean excluding scum), and find a way to make sure the game was at least somewhat fun for all.

Cults generally start out with one player (Cult Leader, bA in this scenario).  LL's not-well-thought-out complaint that "if the cult were really pro-town, why didn't someone claim so" doesn't work given this probability; there was one member on N0 who may or may not have been able to attempt a recruit pre-game.  I would assume they wouldn't know if it worked until N1, so D1 was a no-go for claiming, especially since the entire cult loses if bA dies.

As for the rest -- my best guess is bA can attempt to recruit any player and never actually learns the results.  If a player dies, maybe he knows that was a decline; if a player survives, maybe they joined or maybe they never got the invite (because of current alignment).  For example, bA invites scum, but it isn't delivered because scum is not a valid target.

It makes for a nervous game, given you never know how many players are with you.  I'd assume it's an unblockable power, so bA could invite a different player each night to try to gain numbers without worrying about previous unknowns.  But who knows; I'm not the mod.

So, that's a long brainstorm on how you could theoretically make a cult non-BM and explain why there wouldn't be a claim D1 (or ever if bA needs to survive) directly from known cult members.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: ashersky on January 24, 2019, 05:39:39 am
LL was super odd in that string of posts.  LL's usually a good ash-reader, too, but I guess it's been awhile.

Robz votes are scummy in that they aren't based on anything but not being here.  Robz's "I'm busy IRL" did come in the game thread and not the VLA thread, so it is possible he's lying, I guess, but has anyone really played that card (ever?).  It's one thing to not post for awhile and then fudge the excuse as IRL busy-ness, but to proactively lie about a plan to skip some days is a bit over-the-top, and not very Robzlike.

So yeah.  Boo on that whole thought process.

I am a good ash-reader? Since when? I remember Breaking Bad game it was awful back then.

Also I am not trying to lynch Robz.

I'd say yes.  Well, in that you always think I'm town, so you are usually right (when I'm town).  So if you think I'm town now, you'd be right.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: ashersky on January 24, 2019, 05:41:55 am
In my brainstormed Cult scenario, assuming the win con explained to us was real, the Cult Leader player could literally just play as a town-only survivor while hoping the gA dies.  That'd meet the win condition (all threats to town gone, only remaining A is her).

The most difficult part of the role is trying to get one specific townie killed while still playing toward town's win condition.  Adding cult members doesn't seem to be important (at least not in the explanation we heard).
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: LaLight on January 24, 2019, 05:49:02 am
there's still a question, why hypercube didn't join the cult and claim the whole same things he did claim
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: hypercube on January 24, 2019, 05:56:43 am
Apologies, I neglected to mention this, but I was told that if I decided to join the cult I would join a QT with the leader at the end of the Day.

Again, this is all based on information I received directly from faust, so I don't think it's possible that I've been misled.

To answer LL's question about why it's pro-town for me to die rather than join the cult and live, if I was actually part of the cult right now there's no reason for you to believe what I'm saying. It's very possible that eventually cooperation between town and the cult will help town win the game, and that cooperation is probably impossible unless town actually knows that the cult's win condition aligns with ours, since claiming such would be an obvious play for a non-town aligned cult.

Regarding the rA, bA, gA stuff, that's certainly one possibility. The other possibility that I could think of is that everyone who joins the cult becomes Anaander Mianaai, and in order for the cult to win all of the non-leader members must die before the end of the game. I think that's less likely, but it's worth considering.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: hypercube on January 24, 2019, 06:02:41 am
If I had a strong PR (especially one which could be used to protect the leader) I probably would have joined the cult. As I'm a VT, I can't protect the leader other than with my voice and my vote (which probably would end up looking scummy), and I'm not super necessary for catching scum. I don't exactly have a long history of making good reads, after all. Additionally my wagon was getting a good amount of action D1 so my flip helps town a bit in that way as well.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: hypercube on January 24, 2019, 06:08:02 am
Anyways vote: LL starting a wagon on someone while openly stating you have no intention of lynching them is scummy. Probably not understanding why pro-town things are pro-town is also not indicative of a town mindset.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on January 24, 2019, 06:09:52 am
Other news: I'm happy to continue the robz wagon as a proderator, but am conflicted now. The timing of the recent robz votes has a whiff of scum-pushing easy wagon.

TBH, I was tempted to throw a vote on the pile, since I have to get a vote down somewhere, and I'm still torn about where else to put it. Also, I think accepting unapologetic extended lurker play is bad for mafia on this site overall. Robz has made his public identity known on this site before, so I've read some of his real-life work. The fact I saw him mentioned by name in an article shared by a UK-based friend of a completely different political flavour in the past day or two makes me suspect that Robz may well be busy right now!

Anyway, I think we have sufficiently more information now than D1 that policy-lynching isn't really the best option. Can we go back to your hunch about Joth and Mail-mi? If you're suspicious that their behaviour means that one or other could be scum, would you put ~40% or so on each of them being some kind of scum? Is there anyone in the game you think is more than 40% likely to be scum? If not, why not scumhunt along those lines instead of pushing a lurker lynch?

PPE 9 (work keeps getting in the way...!)
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Haddock on January 24, 2019, 07:10:26 am
Anyways vote: LL starting a wagon on someone while openly stating you have no intention of lynching them is scummy. Probably not understanding why pro-town things are pro-town is also not indicative of a town mindset.
To be fair to LL, the wagon already existed.  I do agree that her recent behaviour is fairly scummy, though.

Other news: I'm happy to continue the robz wagon as a proderator, but am conflicted now. The timing of the recent robz votes has a whiff of scum-pushing easy wagon.

TBH, I was tempted to throw a vote on the pile, since I have to get a vote down somewhere, and I'm still torn about where else to put it. Also, I think accepting unapologetic extended lurker play is bad for mafia on this site overall. Robz has made his public identity known on this site before, so I've read some of his real-life work. The fact I saw him mentioned by name in an article shared by a UK-based friend of a completely different political flavour in the past day or two makes me suspect that Robz may well be busy right now!

Anyway, I think we have sufficiently more information now than D1 that policy-lynching isn't really the best option. Can we go back to your hunch about Joth and Mail-mi? If you're suspicious that their behaviour means that one or other could be scum, would you put ~40% or so on each of them being some kind of scum? Is there anyone in the game you think is more than 40% likely to be scum? If not, why not scumhunt along those lines instead of pushing a lurker lynch?

PPE 9 (work keeps getting in the way...!)
Weird that you would say you were thinking of throwing a vote on the pile and then scold me for having a vote there.
The bolded part is a fairly bad misrepresentation, I think I've made it clear that I was leaving my vote there as a motivational tool and in the absence of something better.

Also, no I wouldn't agree that there's a 40% chance of either being scum.  Maybe 25-30?  The fight makes them both look bad, but it doesn't make them look "80%-chance of at least one being scum" bad.


If it helps, here are my reads:

Slight-to-Moderate scum:
Swan, joth, Lalight, in approximately ascending order of scumminess.

Slight scum:
Space, Robz

Very slight scum:
mail-mi

Null:
Anyone not mentioned elsewhere on this list

Slight town:
Glooble, ash

Moderate town:
e

Strong town:
hyper, unless and until end of day proves otherwise.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Haddock on January 24, 2019, 07:11:02 am
mmf.

I guess in light of the above, vote: lalight
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: LaLight on January 24, 2019, 07:18:43 am
this is interesting. As soon as I really think i can see a bigger picture and feel like i get more useful, I get a wagon
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: LaLight on January 24, 2019, 07:19:52 am
the idea behind wagoning Robz was that if he comes after vla and sees a wagon on him, if he is scum, he might've slipped, but whatever. I thought it was a good idea and try to contribute. Let's go back to vote: 2.71828.....
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: LaLight on January 24, 2019, 07:21:01 am
although I now start to feel that Haddock and Space are scums, because of their exchange and because one of them is quick to vote me and one of them defends me. This looks like finding a convenient mislynch target and cooperating to look townier
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: 2.71828..... on January 24, 2019, 07:30:27 am
I like the case against LaLight, and LaLight's reactions haven't done anything to scream town at me.

Vote: LaLight
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Glooble on January 24, 2019, 07:34:44 am
None of LaLight’s reactions are giving me any desire to change my vote.

I have been thinking about the possibility of an e/ash scum team. It seems like the most plausible explanation for ash’s not dying from the lynch and claiming not to know about it. But I definitely don’t think the possibility is high enough that we should go after either of them today. I just don’t want to fall into the trap of treating them as IC.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Glooble on January 24, 2019, 07:52:39 am
To expand a bit, the only reason I’m still suspicious of ash (and therefore e, as I otherwise have a very strong townread on e) is the fact that she didn’t die from the lynch. I can’t think of any plausible explanation for that other than it was her power and she’s lying about it. If someone who has played more mafia with weird setups than I have has another possible explanation, I would love to hear it.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on January 24, 2019, 08:01:16 am
Geeez this game gets active at night!

vote: LaLight

For so many reasons, really. Hate the Robz vote. (But seriously Robz, get involved or replace out!)

I think this is L-2

Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on January 24, 2019, 08:24:11 am
To expand a bit, the only reason I’m still suspicious of ash (and therefore e, as I otherwise have a very strong townread on e) is the fact that she didn’t die from the lynch. I can’t think of any plausible explanation for that other than it was her power and she’s lying about it. If someone who has played more mafia with weird setups than I have has another possible explanation, I would love to hear it.

I agree it’s hard to figure out. Ash’s explanation that it’s part of Mcmc’s role doesn’t make a lot of sense. Is it meant to work on scum Nks? On the hammer voter? Does it make any sense with mcmc’s character?

Maybe we should seriously consider LaLight’s suggestion that scum has a dayvig that’s balanced by not getting their nightkill? That would fit the facts. But being both hated and lynchproof is such a weird combo.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: LaLight on January 24, 2019, 08:34:28 am
alright then

I am Queter, a Radch-Aligned Shy Bugged Compulsive Visitor. I have to visit someone every night. If I don't get targeted by anyone and my Visit will be successful, I will become Self-Aligned with powers and win condition yet unknown. Bugged part of my role is that if investigated I will return Human or AI result with 50% probability for each. N1 I targeted Haddock and nothing happened.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: faust on January 24, 2019, 08:53:54 am
Vote Count 2.3

jotheonah (1): mail-mi
LaLight (5): Glooble, hypercube, Haddock, 2.71828....., jotheonah
Robz888 (1): Awaclus
2.71828..... (1): LaLight

Not Voting (5): SpaceAnemone, DatSwan, WestCoastDidds, Robz888, ashersky

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch. Day 2 ends on January 29, 2019, 01:00:00 am.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on January 24, 2019, 09:06:32 am
I have no idea what to make of this claim. Do you feel it informs any of your actions?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Glooble on January 24, 2019, 09:10:49 am
alright then

I am Queter, a Radch-Aligned Shy Bugged Compulsive Visitor. I have to visit someone every night. If I don't get targeted by anyone and my Visit will be successful, I will become Self-Aligned with powers and win condition yet unknown. Bugged part of my role is that if investigated I will return Human or AI result with 50% probability for each. N1 I targeted Haddock and nothing happened.

I have no memory of this character. Someone else who has read the books, remind me?

This seems like kind of a weird fake claim for faust to have given a scum player. Unless faust designed the set-up semi-randomly and just used unused power roles for fake claims.

The only way I could see to corroborate this is if someone came forward and said they targeted LL with something last night. I don't know if that's a good idea though, since such a claim might help scum direct their next shot (even if said player doesn't specify what they targeted LL with, which I think it goes without saying they should not.)

We still have five days, lets take our time and get this right.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: hypercube on January 24, 2019, 09:22:57 am
There's this, which seems to indicate that joth had some sort of interaction with LL last night.

A couple things.
3) I don’t want to force anyone to claim, but my power could help explain the lack of a nightkill iff LaLight is bulletproof or was targeted with protection.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on January 24, 2019, 09:54:14 am
There's this, which seems to indicate that joth had some sort of interaction with LL last night.

A couple things.
3) I don’t want to force anyone to claim, but my power could help explain the lack of a nightkill iff LaLight is bulletproof or was targeted with protection.

My role uses MtG technology -- I target one player and name one player. I named LaLight, but didn't target her. However, it's possible I redirected an action pointed at someone else to LaLight. I can claim more if necessary, but I'd rather not.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on January 24, 2019, 09:59:42 am
I have no memory of this character. Someone else who has read the books, remind me?

I looked it up. Queter is the sister of Uran, a field worker from the planet that Atheok station orbits. She's involved in the subplot about Fosyf's heir Raughd.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on January 24, 2019, 10:00:33 am
Regarding the rA, bA, gA stuff, that's certainly one possibility. The other possibility that I could think of is that everyone who joins the cult becomes Anaander Mianaai, and in order for the cult to win all of the non-leader members must die before the end of the game. I think that's less likely, but it's worth considering.

I think that is highly likely.  The expansionist Aanander (bA) that is recruiting would want to defeat scum, since they are a threat to humans, but would need to be alive at the end. I don't know that the other members would have to die, but rather that expansionist Aanander would need to be alive. The cult QT is interesting. In the books there are lots of different communication channels and I wonder if there may be side conversations happening among different sets of folks. Is there some way that we could help leverage that for town?

I don't remember Queter, either, Glooble.  I can go back and look in the book when I get home from work.

One things that LL says is that he will get a result that returns human or AI. I wonder why this matters? That distinction seems meaningless to me.  The AIs are town (they love their humans) and the scum are likely aliens since Hyper's info suggests that Scum is not the expansionist Aanander (my initial guess at what form the scum would take), so neither human or AI.

I am ready to vote for LL, but I am super wary of the hated/loved mechanics and another potential quick lynch so I am not going to do that now unless we are ready to be committed to that decision. (Which is what you were picking up at #645, LL. I said it some time earlier, too. Wariness about how the vote/lynch thresholds are configured that makes me hesitant).

@Joth....help me out. What is MtG technology? What is the different between naming and targeting, if you can say without revealing what you'd rather not?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on January 24, 2019, 10:02:40 am
I have no memory of this character. Someone else who has read the books, remind me?

I looked it up. Queter is the sister of Uran, a field worker from the planet that Atheok station orbits. She's involved in the subplot about Fosyf's heir Raughd.

Oh, yeah. She goes to work on the station while her sister is on trial. Hmmm....still more minor than I would have expected if I was making a list of 14 characters, especially if there are VTs.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Glooble on January 24, 2019, 10:04:06 am
I do not believe the aliens are the scum faction.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: hypercube on January 24, 2019, 10:04:24 am
Oh yeah, I may as well claim that I am not an AI. I suppose human vs. AI could have some impact on who the cult can recruit.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Glooble on January 24, 2019, 10:04:44 am
I have no memory of this character. Someone else who has read the books, remind me?

I looked it up. Queter is the sister of Uran, a field worker from the planet that Atheok station orbits. She's involved in the subplot about Fosyf's heir Raughd.

Oh, yeah. She goes to work on the station while her sister is on trial. Hmmm....still more minor than I would have expected if I was making a list of 14 characters, especially if there are VTs.

Which would support it being a fake claim.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: hypercube on January 24, 2019, 10:08:49 am
LL's claim doesn't make sense. The mechanism for her alignment claim, as I understand it, is that her alignment would change if her visit is blocked or if no-one targets her. That contradicts the setup:

Quote
Noone's alignment can change without their consent.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on January 24, 2019, 10:10:38 am
@Joth....help me out. What is MtG technology? What is the different between naming and targeting, if you can say without revealing what you'd rather not?

I was being a little opaque there. In Magic: The Gathering, it's really important whether a card actually uses the word "target". In certain circumstances, when the game wants you to choose something but without the baggage associated with targeting (like being thwarted by Hexproof), it uses "name" instead. The way faust worded my power felt like he was familiar with MtG and that there's a meaningful distinction between naming and targeting. So I explicitly named but did not target LaLight.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Glooble on January 24, 2019, 10:20:11 am
LL's claim doesn't make sense. The mechanism for her alignment claim, as I understand it, is that her alignment would change if her visit is blocked or if no-one targets her. That contradicts the setup:

Quote
Noone's alignment can change without their consent.


This is a good point, especially if she has to visit someone.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on January 24, 2019, 10:23:12 am
hypercube: since it looks like this day might end early, is there anything else you want to say before you bow out of this game? Final reads list, etc?

We should make sure no one hammers anyone until you feel like you've said your peace.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on January 24, 2019, 10:25:23 am
LL's claim doesn't make sense. The mechanism for her alignment claim, as I understand it, is that her alignment would change if her visit is blocked or if no-one targets her. That contradicts the setup:

Quote
Noone's alignment can change without their consent.


This is a good point, especially if she has to visit someone.

Yeah, seconded. I'd just started worrying about the forced alignment change aspect too.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on January 24, 2019, 10:27:40 am
So many interesting things!

Glooble, who do you think the scum faction are?

Hyper- I think this idea of AIs not being able to be recruited is really interesting and would be consistent with how the AIs are. They exist, they are town, but they don't really have affiliations because they have to serve whoever is using them. Mcmc, as the Mercy of Kalr, would have been an AI, I think. So, if anyone interacted with her before she was killed, you might have some insight into this.

Joth- thanks for the explanation. My husband plays MtG but I haven't in forever. The distinction between naming and targeting seems important if some of the motion detectors get results for someone targeting, but not other actions.

I don't know what I make of all this, except that I think there is a good chance LL's claim is fake.

PPE: 2
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: LaLight on January 24, 2019, 10:30:02 am
Ok, i can’t quote the qt but there is a short piece i’ve read differently. I apparently may decline, but i have no idea what happens in this case. Assume death

From my standpoint lynching me is terrible, but from yours you are losing one town who may as well become the liability. So go ahead
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: LaLight on January 24, 2019, 10:38:35 am
I have no memory of this character. Someone else who has read the books, remind me?

I looked it up. Queter is the sister of Uran, a field worker from the planet that Atheok station orbits. She's involved in the subplot about Fosyf's heir Raughd.

Oh, yeah. She goes to work on the station while her sister is on trial. Hmmm....still more minor than I would have expected if I was making a list of 14 characters, especially if there are VTs.

Knowing faust and being mod myself, i know that making 14 significant characters and leaving some insignificant to make them fakeclaims is a terrible idea. This doesn’t and shouldn’t work. Because of that would, flavor would have a bearing. If anything this is a minor point towards me being town
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: hypercube on January 24, 2019, 10:40:01 am
Ok, i can’t quote the qt but there is a short piece i’ve read differently. I apparently may decline, but i have no idea what happens in this case. Assume death

From my standpoint lynching me is terrible, but from yours you are losing one town who may as well become the liability. So go ahead

Yeah, given my experience I would guess that the other option is death. That's not such a bad option if you think town is more likely to win than you are to survive.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on January 24, 2019, 10:42:51 am
alright then

I am Queter, a Radch-Aligned Shy Bugged Compulsive Visitor. I have to visit someone every night. If I don't get targeted by anyone and my Visit will be successful, I will become Self-Aligned with powers and win condition yet unknown. Bugged part of my role is that if investigated I will return Human or AI result with 50% probability for each. N1 I targeted Haddock and nothing happened.

LL, can you help me understand this better? You visited Haddock, but your visit was not successful since you did not become Self-aligned? (Is targeted the same as visited?)
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: 2.71828..... on January 24, 2019, 10:44:17 am
Very interesting.

Unvote until I have more time to think about it and reread some
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Glooble on January 24, 2019, 10:45:16 am

Glooble, who do you think the scum faction are?


Probably the rogue faction of Anander Miannani, and the town-aligned faction of Anander Miannani is the one Breq is working for in the books.


The aliens wouldn't make much sense as scum. They're not the primary antagonists of the story. The translators are basically good guys, though their presence complicates things for Breq.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on January 24, 2019, 10:45:58 am
The bugged part of the claim would be a great scum fake claim, if scum thinks there is an AI cop in the setup. And if they think AI-ness corresponds at all to alignment.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: hypercube on January 24, 2019, 10:46:25 am
hypercube: since it looks like this day might end early, is there anything else you want to say before you bow out of this game? Final reads list, etc?

We should make sure no one hammers anyone until you feel like you've said your peace.

A few thoughts about ash and E that I guess I should get out there. Glooble bringing up ash not dying when we lynched her reminded me that that was pretty weird. Ash's suggested explanation that it had something to do with mcmc's role isn't really satisfying.

I'm still happy to treat them as town for today but I don't think they should escape scrutiny just because of E's cop claim. For example it's definitely possible that ash is town and E is scum; I don't think that's likely given their other actions but their alignments aren't absolutely tied together. Also I assume ash will have to full claim at some point and it'll be important to really go back and check that claim against the things she's said earlier today.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on January 24, 2019, 10:53:07 am

Glooble, who do you think the scum faction are?


Probably the rogue faction of Anander Miannani, and the town-aligned faction of Anander Miannani is the one Breq is working for in the books.

The aliens wouldn't make much sense as scum. They're not the primary antagonists of the story. The translators are basically good guys, though their presence complicates things for Breq.

Agreed that alines don't make sense as scum, but then what do you do with Hyper's explanation that he is being recruited by Aanander- which by your thoughts (and mine) suggest are the bad guys? Scum wouldn't have that much power, would they? How do we parse this?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on January 24, 2019, 10:54:33 am
Oh, yeah!  Why didn't Asher die? His role didn't have that power, I don't think.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Glooble on January 24, 2019, 10:56:16 am

Glooble, who do you think the scum faction are?


Probably the rogue faction of Anander Miannani, and the town-aligned faction of Anander Miannani is the one Breq is working for in the books.

The aliens wouldn't make much sense as scum. They're not the primary antagonists of the story. The translators are basically good guys, though their presence complicates things for Breq.

Agreed that alines don't make sense as scum, but then what do you do with Hyper's explanation that he is being recruited by Aanander- which by your thoughts (and mine) suggest are the bad guys? Scum wouldn't have that much power, would they? How do we parse this?


Cube was targeted by the "good" Anander. Scum is led by the bad Anander. I guess there would have to be a third Anander for the cult's win-con not to be redundant. With any other flavor I would say it's ridiculous but it's part of what makes the Ancillary books so fun.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: mail-mi on January 24, 2019, 10:57:17 am
Hey y'all, I have so much to do today (irl day) that I won't be on the forums at all. Got a lot of catching up to do, will probably have a lot more by the time tomorrow comes.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on January 24, 2019, 10:57:54 am
Here's the thing. If there's a survivor, that's the most likely person to have lynchproof.

What if ash is lying and hated is NOT part of her role but lynchproof IS? Maybe she got hated N0 from the same person who gave me hated today. It does seem weird that that person didn't counterclaim when ash said it was part of her role, but some people really don't like to claim.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: hypercube on January 24, 2019, 11:02:39 am
Here's the thing. If there's a survivor, that's the most likely person to have lynchproof.

What if ash is lying and hated is NOT part of her role but lynchproof IS? Maybe she got hated N0 from the same person who gave me hated today. It does seem weird that that person didn't counterclaim when ash said it was part of her role, but some people really don't like to claim.

I agree that lynchproof points to survivor or SK, but then there's no reason for E to fake a cop result and protect ash.

Your hated was announced in the thread while hers wasn't, so it makes sense that they'd be from different sources.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on January 24, 2019, 11:06:19 am
That's a good point.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Signups open!)
Post by: hypercube on January 24, 2019, 11:20:44 am
For those analysing the flavour, don't forget this:

The setting is roughly at the start of the second book.

which might be helpful.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on January 24, 2019, 12:48:32 pm

Glooble, who do you think the scum faction are?


Probably the rogue faction of Anander Miannani, and the town-aligned faction of Anander Miannani is the one Breq is working for in the books.

The aliens wouldn't make much sense as scum. They're not the primary antagonists of the story. The translators are basically good guys, though their presence complicates things for Breq.

Agreed that alines don't make sense as scum, but then what do you do with Hyper's explanation that he is being recruited by Aanander- which by your thoughts (and mine) suggest are the bad guys? Scum wouldn't have that much power, would they? How do we parse this?


Cube was targeted by the "good" Anander. Scum is led by the bad Anander. I guess there would have to be a third Anander for the cult's win-con not to be redundant. With any other flavor I would say it's ridiculous but it's part of what makes the Ancillary books so fun.

Oh, this is interesting and I need to think about it some more so I am putting it here to remember.  So, if Hyper had agreed, he's have still been town but he would have been tied to a leader who is not Breq (presumably), so the only thing different about being VT and the change would have been the precarious position of having his fate tied to someone else's? Is that how it would have worked? You're right that it is what is interesting about the books (the house divided) and faust would likely maintain that. So, there isn't a third party, just a self-interested leader?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: hypercube on January 24, 2019, 01:18:08 pm
Oh, this is interesting and I need to think about it some more so I am putting it here to remember.  So, if Hyper had agreed, he's have still been town but he would have been tied to a leader who is not Breq (presumably), so the only thing different about being VT and the change would have been the precarious position of having his fate tied to someone else's? Is that how it would have worked? You're right that it is what is interesting about the books (the house divided) and faust would likely maintain that. So, there isn't a third party, just a self-interested leader?

No, it's explicitly an alignment change, so I would be part of a different faction with a different win condition than town's. The new win condition doesn't completely overlap with town's: town is required to have at least one Radch-aligned player alive at the end of the game. So there's probably some possibility that the cult ends up as the only faction left alive in which case I may regret the decisions I have made.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on January 24, 2019, 01:30:02 pm
The way faust worded my power felt like he was familiar with MtG and that there's a meaningful distinction between naming and targeting. So I explicitly named but did not target LaLight.

How does your name-not-target thing work with a motion detector?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on January 24, 2019, 01:40:27 pm
The way faust worded my power felt like he was familiar with MtG and that there's a meaningful distinction between naming and targeting. So I explicitly named but did not target LaLight.

How does your name-not-target thing work with a motion detector?

I have no idea.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Glooble on January 24, 2019, 01:42:34 pm
I would assume it depends on the exact wording of the motion detector role pm.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Robz888 on January 24, 2019, 03:51:12 pm
Hi guys, see my note in VLA if you've wondered where I am. I think I should have some catch up time tomorrow at the latest.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: hypercube on January 24, 2019, 04:27:53 pm
One thought about LL's claimed role: since we know there's a survivor-like faction in the game already, it seems likely that "self-aligned" means that LL would turn into some sort of SK if she changes alignment.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on January 24, 2019, 04:36:30 pm
One thought about LL's claimed role: since we know there's a survivor-like faction in the game already, it seems likely that "self-aligned" means that LL would turn into some sort of SK if she changes alignment.

Or a Jester. Or is Jester considered bastard?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on January 24, 2019, 06:26:54 pm
The way faust worded my power felt like he was familiar with MtG and that there's a meaningful distinction between naming and targeting. So I explicitly named but did not target LaLight.

How does your name-not-target thing work with a motion detector?

I have no idea.

Well, mcmc flipped motion detector, meaning faust must have had to made rulings ahead of time for how it would work, so I would have expected the wording of you role and its "MtG" mechanic not to be ambiguous in that respect. At worst, though, there's now enough public information for you to ask him in your QT.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on January 24, 2019, 08:08:48 pm
Does anyone know of a previous game with a cult mechanic or a robust third faction that I can read? I feel behind in terms of knowing how things work in that regard and I don’t want to slow us down.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Swowl on January 24, 2019, 08:40:37 pm
PPE a ton of catch up since LL claim. But for now i am essentially edged on believing all claims to at least an extent. Reasons to follow.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: LaLight on January 25, 2019, 02:06:08 am
One thought about LL's claimed role: since we know there's a survivor-like faction in the game already, it seems likely that "self-aligned" means that LL would turn into some sort of SK if she changes alignment.

Or a Jester. Or is Jester considered bastard?

Jester is bastard indeed
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: LaLight on January 25, 2019, 02:06:46 am
Does anyone know of a previous game with a cult mechanic or a robust third faction that I can read? I feel behind in terms of knowing how things work in that regard and I don’t want to slow us down.

Try Breaking Bad... although it's not really an awesome example of this, but this game somehow reminds me of that one. Also it was awesome.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: LaLight on January 25, 2019, 02:08:45 am
alright then

I am Queter, a Radch-Aligned Shy Bugged Compulsive Visitor. I have to visit someone every night. If I don't get targeted by anyone and my Visit will be successful, I will become Self-Aligned with powers and win condition yet unknown. Bugged part of my role is that if investigated I will return Human or AI result with 50% probability for each. N1 I targeted Haddock and nothing happened.

LL, can you help me understand this better? You visited Haddock, but your visit was not successful since you did not become Self-aligned? (Is targeted the same as visited?)

Well, I targeted Haddock. I have no idea if I was visiting him in the end (I might've been roleblocked or I might've been visited). Or maybe Haddovck commuted or was rolestopped. I have no idea, but I did not have a choice to change alignment, basically I didn't get any response
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Awaclus on January 25, 2019, 02:49:36 am
Vote: DatSwan
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Haddock on January 25, 2019, 05:48:13 am
LL's claim doesn't make sense. The mechanism for her alignment claim, as I understand it, is that her alignment would change if her visit is blocked or if no-one targets her. That contradicts the setup:

Quote
Noone's alignment can change without their consent.


This is a good point, especially if she has to visit someone.

Yeah, seconded. I'd just started worrying about the forced alignment change aspect too.
Read again, folks:

LL's alignment would change if she successfully visited. 
So her alignment would have changed if her role worked as she intended.  That is, LL's role is essentially an option to change alignment (unless blocked or something).   So yeah, given that it is LL's choice to attempt to change alignment, the claim definitely fits within the "consent" aspect.


Then again if we don't know the wincon of self-aligned!LL, lynching LL may well be as a good a choice as any: either LL is lying scum or LL is a semi-towny with an option to change alignment to something unknown at some point in the future, an ability which she has already demonstrated a desire to use.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: hypercube on January 25, 2019, 05:53:53 am
LL's claim doesn't make sense. The mechanism for her alignment claim, as I understand it, is that her alignment would change if her visit is blocked or if no-one targets her. That contradicts the setup:

Quote
Noone's alignment can change without their consent.


This is a good point, especially if she has to visit someone.

Yeah, seconded. I'd just started worrying about the forced alignment change aspect too.
Read again, folks:

LL's alignment would change if she successfully visited. 
So her alignment would have changed if her role worked as she intended.  That is, LL's role is essentially an option to change alignment (unless blocked or something).   So yeah, given that it is LL's choice to attempt to change alignment, the claim definitely fits within the "consent" aspect.


Then again if we don't know the wincon of self-aligned!LL, lynching LL may well be as a good a choice as any: either LL is lying scum or LL is a semi-towny with an option to change alignment to something unknown at some point in the future, an ability which she has already demonstrated a desire to use.

Right, I misread that part, but you missed where she claims to be a compulsive vistor, so to visit or not can't be the choice part of the alignment change. For her to stay town her visit must be blocked or someone must target her.

I am still inclined to lynch LL unless someone claims they targeted her last night.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Haddock on January 25, 2019, 05:57:42 am
alright then

I am Queter, a Radch-Aligned Shy Bugged Compulsive Visitor. I have to visit someone every night. If I don't get targeted by anyone and my Visit will be successful, I will become Self-Aligned with powers and win condition yet unknown. Bugged part of my role is that if investigated I will return Human or AI result with 50% probability for each. N1 I targeted Haddock and nothing happened.

LL, can you help me understand this better? You visited Haddock, but your visit was not successful since you did not become Self-aligned? (Is targeted the same as visited?)

Well, I targeted Haddock. I have no idea if I was visiting him in the end (I might've been roleblocked or I might've been visited). Or maybe Haddovck commuted or was rolestopped. I have no idea, but I did not have a choice to change alignment, basically I didn't get any response

Nothing I did would have caused you to be blocked or stopped or anything.


LL's claim doesn't make sense. The mechanism for her alignment claim, as I understand it, is that her alignment would change if her visit is blocked or if no-one targets her. That contradicts the setup:

Quote
Noone's alignment can change without their consent.


This is a good point, especially if she has to visit someone.

Yeah, seconded. I'd just started worrying about the forced alignment change aspect too.
Read again, folks:

LL's alignment would change if she successfully visited. 
So her alignment would have changed if her role worked as she intended.  That is, LL's role is essentially an option to change alignment (unless blocked or something).   So yeah, given that it is LL's choice to attempt to change alignment, the claim definitely fits within the "consent" aspect.


Then again if we don't know the wincon of self-aligned!LL, lynching LL may well be as a good a choice as any: either LL is lying scum or LL is a semi-towny with an option to change alignment to something unknown at some point in the future, an ability which she has already demonstrated a desire to use.

Right, I misread that part, but you missed where she claims to be a compulsive vistor, so to visit or not can't be the choice part of the alignment change. For her to stay town her visit must be blocked or someone must target her.

I am still inclined to lynch LL unless someone claims they targeted her last night.
You're right, I did miss the compulsive part.  That does look extremely bad.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: ashersky on January 25, 2019, 06:24:52 am
The claim as stated doesn’t fit the rules. Assuming no mod error, it’s fake or mistaken.

What is the motivation for scum to fake claim that specific thing?  What scum knowledge is it based on. I think those are some questions I’m pondering.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: LaLight on January 25, 2019, 06:38:48 am
Ok, i can’t quote the qt but there is a short piece i’ve read differently. I apparently may decline, but i have no idea what happens in this case. Assume death

From my standpoint lynching me is terrible, but from yours you are losing one town who may as well become the liability. So go ahead

have everyone misread this?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Haddock on January 25, 2019, 06:58:42 am
Ok, i can’t quote the qt but there is a short piece i’ve read differently. I apparently may decline, but i have no idea what happens in this case. Assume death

From my standpoint lynching me is terrible, but from yours you are losing one town who may as well become the liability. So go ahead

have everyone misread this?
I didn't understand what this post of yours meant until now.

In any case it doesn't help us all that much since you only mentioned it after the discrepancy had been pointed out
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Haddock on January 25, 2019, 07:02:36 am
Ironic that ash keeps talking about giving the town an extra lynch day 1 (as if that’s protown) But she has in fact denied us a day one lynch by not dying.

I’m tempted to ask ash to fullclaim. I’m also tempted to go ahead and try to finish what we started day one.

Well, I didn't plan on me being the extra lynch, nor did I know I wouldn't die.

The extra lynch should have been whomever was #2 on the lynch list -- so one of the folks with two votes.  Or it looks like the new Galzria would have been coming after you.

Regardless of my not dying, we did have two "lynches" on D1.  We just didn't get two flips.

As for full claiming, not a good idea.  Remaining number of shots and when/how I can use them is what scum wants to know.  Scum also wants to lynch me.

I've claimed what needs to be known (through words or actions).  Hetnys, sometimes dayvig, sometimes hated.  Everything else is not related to my role (not dying from lynch, surviving last night).
I'd like to return to this just briefly, as a side-note.  Ash I've just run a search on the thread and you absolutely hadn't mentioned anything about your hatedness until this post quoted here.  Any clarification you have would be great; can we confirm with you for instance and in particular that your role was responsible for "both halves" of your doubly-hatedness yesterday?  (ie. your role is sometimes doublehated, not just sometimes hated.)
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on January 25, 2019, 08:33:53 am
LaLet’s LaLynch LaLight. This seems more and more cut and dried.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: LaLight on January 25, 2019, 08:40:18 am
LaLet’s LaLynch LaLight. This seems more and more cut and dried.

I will steal that after the game ends, to my sig. Please remind

Also don't
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on January 25, 2019, 09:10:02 am
I'd like to return to this just briefly, as a side-note.  Ash I've just run a search on the thread and you absolutely hadn't mentioned anything about your hatedness until this post quoted here.  Any clarification you have would be great; can we confirm with you for instance and in particular that your role was responsible for "both halves" of your doubly-hatedness yesterday?  (ie. your role is sometimes doublehated, not just sometimes hated.)

The post Haddock quoted was #472. There's this from Ash at #467:

Also, nice speculation by all on the odd wagon size (no sarcasm here).  But I took only 5 votes to lynch.

As for why I didn't die -- no idea.  Assuming someone protected me from the NK as I believe I'm scum's top NK priority.

He got called on that by WCD, and then clarified at #482. However, I'd definitely felt like his later tone implied that he was asserting that he'd been explicit, whereas I think "I took only 5 votes to lynch" is more readily interpreted as an observation of that fact that he was declared lynched when there were only 5 votes on him than it is as a statement of causality.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Haddock on January 25, 2019, 09:54:32 am
I'd like to return to this just briefly, as a side-note.  Ash I've just run a search on the thread and you absolutely hadn't mentioned anything about your hatedness until this post quoted here.  Any clarification you have would be great; can we confirm with you for instance and in particular that your role was responsible for "both halves" of your doubly-hatedness yesterday?  (ie. your role is sometimes doublehated, not just sometimes hated.)

The post Haddock quoted was #472. There's this from Ash at #467:

Also, nice speculation by all on the odd wagon size (no sarcasm here).  But I took only 5 votes to lynch.

As for why I didn't die -- no idea.  Assuming someone protected me from the NK as I believe I'm scum's top NK priority.

He got called on that by WCD, and then clarified at #482. However, I'd definitely felt like his later tone implied that he was asserting that he'd been explicit, whereas I think "I took only 5 votes to lynch" is more readily interpreted as an observation of that fact that he was declared lynched when there were only 5 votes on him than it is as a statement of causality.
I absolutely interpreted it as a statement of observation rather than any kind of claim.

And I missed it during the recent search because I Ctrl+F'd for "hated" and also for "hetnys".
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on January 25, 2019, 11:00:59 am
Does anyone know of a previous game with a cult mechanic or a robust third faction that I can read? I feel behind in terms of knowing how things work in that regard and I don’t want to slow us down.

Try Breaking Bad... although it's not really an awesome example of this, but this game somehow reminds me of that one. Also it was awesome.

Roger that....gonna go read!
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Glooble on January 25, 2019, 11:54:55 am
Vote: DatSwan

Care to expound a little? If your intention is to start a wagon, its traditional to make a case. Especially when the town already has a strong wagon going on another player, a wagon which you haven't really weighed in on.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Awaclus on January 25, 2019, 12:03:32 pm
Vote: DatSwan

Care to expound a little? If your intention is to start a wagon, its traditional to make a case. Especially when the town already has a strong wagon going on another player, a wagon which you haven't really weighed in on.

Are you DatSwan's scum partner?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Glooble on January 25, 2019, 12:08:27 pm
Vote: DatSwan

Care to expound a little? If your intention is to start a wagon, its traditional to make a case. Especially when the town already has a strong wagon going on another player, a wagon which you haven't really weighed in on.

Are you DatSwan's scum partner?

Has this level of combativeness worked out well for you in other games? Genuinely curious.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Awaclus on January 25, 2019, 12:09:26 pm
Eh, I guess it doesn't hurt to weigh in on the LL wagon. I think the wagon is of very low utility and the lynch should happen later in the game if at all, instead of now. If LL is telling the truth, scum isn't going to be opposed to his lynch. If he is scum and he messed up his fakeclaim, scum isn't going to be opposed to his lynch either. Either way, we don't get any useful wagon analysis out of it.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: mail-mi on January 25, 2019, 12:10:11 pm
Eh, I guess it doesn't hurt to weigh in on the LL wagon. I think the wagon is of very low utility and the lynch should happen later in the game if at all, instead of now. If LL is telling the truth, scum isn't going to be opposed to his lynch. If he is scum and he messed up his fakeclaim, scum isn't going to be opposed to his lynch either. Either way, we don't get any useful wagon analysis out of it.

I agree with this statement.

I should have a little bit more time today
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Glooble on January 25, 2019, 12:18:50 pm
Eh, I guess it doesn't hurt to weigh in on the LL wagon. I think the wagon is of very low utility and the lynch should happen later in the game if at all, instead of now. If LL is telling the truth, scum isn't going to be opposed to his lynch. If he is scum and he messed up his fakeclaim, scum isn't going to be opposed to his lynch either. Either way, we don't get any useful wagon analysis out of it.

I don't follow your logic at all.

If she's scum, scum want her to survive because that's how they win. If the other scum aren't defending her its because they think there's more utility in earning town points by being on the scum wagon.

If she does end up town, then I think she's just as informative as any other lynch, plus we're not losing a power that has any utility to town, plus her alignment was probably going to change anyway which likely would have been bad for town.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: mail-mi on January 25, 2019, 12:36:28 pm
Eh, I guess it doesn't hurt to weigh in on the LL wagon. I think the wagon is of very low utility and the lynch should happen later in the game if at all, instead of now. If LL is telling the truth, scum isn't going to be opposed to his lynch. If he is scum and he messed up his fakeclaim, scum isn't going to be opposed to his lynch either. Either way, we don't get any useful wagon analysis out of it.

I don't follow your logic at all.

If she's scum, scum want her to survive because that's how they win. If the other scum aren't defending her its because they think there's more utility in earning town points by being on the scum wagon.

If she does end up town, then I think she's just as informative as any other lynch, plus we're not losing a power that has any utility to town, plus her alignment was probably going to change anyway which likely would have been bad for town.

It's just a very weird fakeclaim for scum to make--it makes town inclined to lynch her. I guess WIFOM, but I'm willing to believe her for now.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Awaclus on January 25, 2019, 12:43:17 pm
If she's scum, scum want her to survive because that's how they win. If the other scum aren't defending her its because they think there's more utility in earning town points by being on the scum wagon.

Here's a list of people who would defend a scum partner who they know just scumslipped:
 -
 -
 -
 -
 -

Oh, and I almost forgot this person:
 -

If she does end up town, then I think she's just as informative as any other lynch, plus we're not losing a power that has any utility to town, plus her alignment was probably going to change anyway which likely would have been bad for town.

The fact that we're "not losing a power that has any utility to town, plus her alignment was probably going to change anyway which likely would have been bad for town" is exactly a part of the reason why the lynch is meaningless. You don't get scum points for pushing the lynch because it's at least an alright lynch from town's perspective.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Haddock on January 25, 2019, 12:47:47 pm
Eh, I guess it doesn't hurt to weigh in on the LL wagon. I think the wagon is of very low utility and the lynch should happen later in the game if at all, instead of now. If LL is telling the truth, scum isn't going to be opposed to his lynch. If he is scum and he messed up his fakeclaim, scum isn't going to be opposed to his lynch either. Either way, we don't get any useful wagon analysis out of it.

I don't follow your logic at all.

If she's scum, scum want her to survive because that's how they win. If the other scum aren't defending her its because they think there's more utility in earning town points by being on the scum wagon.

If she does end up town, then I think she's just as informative as any other lynch, plus we're not losing a power that has any utility to town, plus her alignment was probably going to change anyway which likely would have been bad for town.

It's just a very weird fakeclaim for scum to make--it makes town inclined to lynch her. I guess WIFOM, but I'm willing to believe her for now.
But even if we believe her, why wouldn't we lynch her? 
If she's town and her claim is true then she will shortly become not-town; if anyone is thinking of wasting a role block on Lalight for the rest of the game to prevent her changing, I beg them to think again.


Obviously going elsewhere is fine, but I haven't seen a convincing case on anyone else, so I'm definitely happy with where my vote is right now.  (Yes other people are scummy, but not _that_ scummy.)
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Glooble on January 25, 2019, 12:48:22 pm
If she's scum, scum want her to survive because that's how they win. If the other scum aren't defending her its because they think there's more utility in earning town points by being on the scum wagon.

Here's a list of people who would defend a scum partner who they know just scumslipped:
 -
 -
 -
 -
 -

Oh, and I almost forgot this person:
 -

If she does end up town, then I think she's just as informative as any other lynch, plus we're not losing a power that has any utility to town, plus her alignment was probably going to change anyway which likely would have been bad for town.

The fact that we're "not losing a power that has any utility to town, plus her alignment was probably going to change anyway which likely would have been bad for town" is exactly a part of the reason why the lynch is meaningless. You don't get scum points for pushing the lynch because it's at least an alright lynch from town's perspective.

So you're saying you do think she's scum... but you don't want to lynch her?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Awaclus on January 25, 2019, 12:54:37 pm
So you're saying you do think she's scum... but you don't want to lynch her?

No, I don't know if he's scum or not, that's why I'm considering both of the possible scenarios. In both of the possible scenarios, both town and scum want to be on the wagon so it doesn't tell us anything about anyone's alignment, which is why we should have a more informative lynch today and focus on this later, preferably when we also have more info.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Glooble on January 25, 2019, 01:04:47 pm
So you're saying you do think she's scum... but you don't want to lynch her?

No, I don't know if he's scum or not, that's why I'm considering both of the possible scenarios. In both of the possible scenarios, both town and scum want to be on the wagon so it doesn't tell us anything about anyone's alignment, which is why we should have a more informative lynch today and focus on this later, preferably when we also have more info.

You're not taking into account all the people who were on the wagon before the claim. Information you get about our alignments would be untainted by that knowledge.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Awaclus on January 25, 2019, 01:30:48 pm
So you're saying you do think she's scum... but you don't want to lynch her?

No, I don't know if he's scum or not, that's why I'm considering both of the possible scenarios. In both of the possible scenarios, both town and scum want to be on the wagon so it doesn't tell us anything about anyone's alignment, which is why we should have a more informative lynch today and focus on this later, preferably when we also have more info.

You're not taking into account all the people who were on the wagon before the claim. Information you get about our alignments would be untainted by that knowledge.

Sure, but why not instead get a wagon going where the entire wagon is untainted.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Glooble on January 25, 2019, 01:39:29 pm
So you're saying you do think she's scum... but you don't want to lynch her?

No, I don't know if he's scum or not, that's why I'm considering both of the possible scenarios. In both of the possible scenarios, both town and scum want to be on the wagon so it doesn't tell us anything about anyone's alignment, which is why we should have a more informative lynch today and focus on this later, preferably when we also have more info.

You're not taking into account all the people who were on the wagon before the claim. Information you get about our alignments would be untainted by that knowledge.

Sure, but why not instead get a wagon going where the entire wagon is untainted.

Until that person claims and we're in the same boat.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: hypercube on January 25, 2019, 01:40:42 pm
So you're saying you do think she's scum... but you don't want to lynch her?

No, I don't know if he's scum or not, that's why I'm considering both of the possible scenarios. In both of the possible scenarios, both town and scum want to be on the wagon so it doesn't tell us anything about anyone's alignment, which is why we should have a more informative lynch today and focus on this later, preferably when we also have more info.

Hey look, you're saying no-one would oppose lynching LL but here you (and mail-mi) are opposing it!

Your naked vote on Swan puts 0 pressure on him at this point in the game; if you actually have a case against him you should post that. Right now it looks a lot like you voted for him in order to tempt me to follow since you know I've expressed a scumread on him.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on January 25, 2019, 02:09:11 pm
Eh, I guess it doesn't hurt to weigh in on the LL wagon. I think the wagon is of very low utility and the lynch should happen later in the game if at all, instead of now. If LL is telling the truth, scum isn't going to be opposed to his lynch. If he is scum and he messed up his fakeclaim, scum isn't going to be opposed to his lynch either. Either way, we don't get any useful wagon analysis out of it.

As other people are pointing out, this is ridiculous. But also, the idiom "a bird in the hand is better than two in the bush" is exceptionally true in the world of mafia. Scum knows that putting off a lynch until later is as good as cancelling a lynch because people in these games have short memories and attention spans. If we think we have caught scum, we should lynch. Anything else is anti-town.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Awaclus on January 25, 2019, 02:14:22 pm
Until that person claims and we're in the same boat.

I don't know man, it'll start to get suspicious at some point if everyone claims that their alignment can change to non-town and then messes up the claim.

Hey look, you're saying no-one would oppose lynching LL but here you (and mail-mi) are opposing it!

I can't speak for mail-mi, but I'm not opposed to lynching LL. I'm just saying we should delay it for the time being.

As other people are pointing out, this is ridiculous. But also, the idiom "a bird in the hand is better than two in the bush" is exceptionally true in the world of mafia. Scum knows that putting off a lynch until later is as good as cancelling a lynch because people in these games have short memories and attention spans. If we think we have caught scum, we should lynch. Anything else is anti-town.

Other people are wrong. You can't delete posts so it doesn't matter how long someone's memory is, they can always read the posts again.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Glooble on January 25, 2019, 02:19:14 pm
Until that person claims and we're in the same boat.

I don't know man, it'll start to get suspicious at some point if everyone claims that their alignment can change to non-town and then messes up the claim.



You know what I mean. It won't be this exact thing, but it will be something makes us not want to lynch them that day. Scum will keep claiming whatever they think will keep them from getting lynched. If this works for LL whose to say it won't work for the next person? Or we force a townie to claim a powerful role and then they get Night Killed. Either way its good for scum and bad for us.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Awaclus on January 25, 2019, 02:22:06 pm
Scum will keep claiming whatever they think will keep them from getting lynched.

Great, then we can identify the scum on the basis on who claims something that would make us not want to lynch them. Looks like LaLight isn't scum according to that logic though.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on January 25, 2019, 02:25:54 pm
Scum will keep claiming whatever they think will keep them from getting lynched.

Great, then we can identify the scum on the basis on who claims something that would make us not want to lynch them. Looks like LaLight isn't scum according to that logic though.

The claim appears to have worked on you, mail-mi, and e.

The one thing I'd like to wait a bit for, since we have the time, is Robz to catch up and weigh in. But I don't plan to move my vote.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on January 25, 2019, 02:40:25 pm
I don’t think Awa is wrong, exactly. We could wait to lynch LL, but it doesn’t seem like there is significant scumminess happening elsewhere. Robz and DatSwan have both been scarce, so perhaps they’ll be able to get out from under on the weekend and can be more engaged. Hard to know. I don’t see any reason to hurry a lynch, regardless, so we have time to keep thinking although if feels like we’ve stalled somewhat. My vote intention is still there.

I went back and read Breaking Bad because I’m new to sone of these mechanics and on thing someone said was that in RMM games, the most informative stuff usually happens at night. Is that accurate? Do we need to know more about what happened N1 (which began rather abruptly), or do we need more info from N2 before we have a better sense? In that game the fake claims were the keys to the castle. So perhaps we should scrutinize the stuff that doesn’t quite make sense (which I think we’ve been doing with Hyper and LL).

The day ends at 1 am on Tuesday...so Monday night for the US folks. (This is just to remind me!)
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: LaLight on January 25, 2019, 03:02:21 pm
Do you understand there’s no incentive for me to change alignment now? I do not really want to do it, i can help town. And i wasn’t offered to anyway.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on January 25, 2019, 03:11:11 pm
LaLight, if you are town the best thing you can do right now is try to give us another option. Scumhunt. Make a case. I've noticed that that is not something you've chosen to do in response to your wagon and it's part of why I think you are in fact scum.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Haddock on January 25, 2019, 03:27:41 pm
Do you understand there’s no incentive for me to change alignment now? I do not really want to do it, i can help town. And i wasn’t offered to anyway.
According to your own claim, you have no choice in the matter; you have no control over your own alignment.  It sucks for you, but you have to see how we are struggling to let that pass.  You are a totally loose cannon.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: mail-mi on January 25, 2019, 03:33:02 pm
Do you understand there’s no incentive for me to change alignment now? I do not really want to do it, i can help town. And i wasn’t offered to anyway.
According to your own claim, you have no choice in the matter; you have no control over your own alignment.  It sucks for you, but you have to see how we are struggling to let that pass.  You are a totally loose cannon.

That goes directly against the setup rules. The way I read LaLight's claim was "If I visit someone sucessfully, I then get the choice to switch my alignment." The visiting is compulsive, not the alignment changing. Is that right, LaLight?

Also (I can't believe I'm saying this) everyone should listen to Awaclus because he's making sense right now about Lalight. I am not sad with a LaLight lynch but would be much happier elsewhere (like, say, joth, whose recent posts haven't changed my read on him). Lalight can always be lynched later.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Glooble on January 25, 2019, 03:54:04 pm
But what is actually the advantage to lynching him later as opposed to now?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on January 25, 2019, 03:59:38 pm
But what is actually the advantage to lynching him later as opposed to now?

Dingdingding

Arguing to delay a lynch is a good way to argue against a lynch without looking like you're arguing against a lynch.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on January 25, 2019, 04:00:58 pm
LaLight has done nothing to deserve a pass. If you believe her claim, she has a role that is at best useless and at worst anti-town. If you don't believe her claim, she's scum.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: hypercube on January 25, 2019, 04:16:47 pm
Do you understand there’s no incentive for me to change alignment now? I do not really want to do it, i can help town. And i wasn’t offered to anyway.

Personally, I think it's good that there's no way for you to win now if you change alignment so you're forced to do your best to help town if you want to win.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Awaclus on January 25, 2019, 04:22:23 pm
But what is actually the advantage to lynching him later as opposed to now?

1) getting a more informative lynch instead, which is good to get sooner rather than later because of inflation
2) getting other info on LaLight in the meantime
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Awaclus on January 25, 2019, 04:23:30 pm
Arguing to delay a lynch is a good way to argue against a lynch without looking like you're arguing against a lynch.

No it isn't. It's a good way to argue to delay a lynch.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on January 25, 2019, 04:33:20 pm
What makes you think the LaLight flip won't be informative? I think it will be extremely informative.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Awaclus on January 25, 2019, 05:25:28 pm
What makes you think the LaLight flip won't be informative? I think it will be extremely informative.

Because nobody has an incentive to be opposed to his lynch, regardless of anyone's alignment in the equation. I already said as much.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Swowl on January 25, 2019, 06:05:45 pm
OK so I have just been playing catchup (sorry) work has been a nightmare. I keep reading up and then realizing a ton of stuff happened while I was gone and then reading again... and etc etc. So I am just gonna post major points here and get to deets later. First off:

alright then

I am Queter, a Radch-Aligned Shy Bugged Compulsive Visitor. I have to visit someone every night. If I don't get targeted by anyone and my Visit will be successful, I will become Self-Aligned with powers and win condition yet unknown. Bugged part of my role is that if investigated I will return Human or AI result with 50% probability for each. N1 I targeted Haddock and nothing happened.

LL, can you help me understand this better? You visited Haddock, but your visit was not successful since you did not become Self-aligned? (Is targeted the same as visited?)

Well, I targeted Haddock. I have no idea if I was visiting him in the end (I might've been roleblocked or I might've been visited). Or maybe Haddovck commuted or was rolestopped. I have no idea, but I did not have a choice to change alignment, basically I didn't get any response

- I do not think this comes as skum. It could come off as a Survivor claim, but it could also come off as a SK claim or skum claim. I think on the spot like LL was, they would of taken a different route as skum in regards to the content of their claim.

- Additionally I know what my role is, and there is a specific part of it that by no means "clears" LL here... but also pushes me in the direction of believing them.

Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Glooble on January 25, 2019, 06:10:59 pm
What makes you think the LaLight flip won't be informative? I think it will be extremely informative.

Because nobody has an incentive to be opposed to his lynch, regardless of anyone's alignment in the equation. I already said as much.

I just don’t agree with that. Scum has incentive to oppose it. And look who’s opposing it. You. How about that?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on January 25, 2019, 06:42:24 pm
OK so I have just been playing catchup (sorry) work has been a nightmare. I keep reading up and then realizing a ton of stuff happened while I was gone and then reading again... and etc etc. So I am just gonna post major points here and get to deets later. First off:

alright then

I am Queter, a Radch-Aligned Shy Bugged Compulsive Visitor. I have to visit someone every night. If I don't get targeted by anyone and my Visit will be successful, I will become Self-Aligned with powers and win condition yet unknown. Bugged part of my role is that if investigated I will return Human or AI result with 50% probability for each. N1 I targeted Haddock and nothing happened.

LL, can you help me understand this better? You visited Haddock, but your visit was not successful since you did not become Self-aligned? (Is targeted the same as visited?)

Well, I targeted Haddock. I have no idea if I was visiting him in the end (I might've been roleblocked or I might've been visited). Or maybe Haddovck commuted or was rolestopped. I have no idea, but I did not have a choice to change alignment, basically I didn't get any response

- I do not think this comes as skum. It could come off as a Survivor claim, but it could also come off as a SK claim or skum claim. I think on the spot like LL was, they would of taken a different route as skum in regards to the content of their claim.

- Additionally I know what my role is, and there is a specific part of it that by no means "clears" LL here... but also pushes me in the direction of believing them.

What do you make of the whole “doesn’t work in the rules” thing?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Awaclus on January 25, 2019, 06:52:08 pm
Scum has incentive to oppose it. And look who’s opposing it. You. How about that?

Not true and not true. Scum does not have an incentive to oppose it, and I'm not opposing it.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Glooble on January 25, 2019, 07:16:36 pm
Scum has incentive to oppose it. And look who’s opposing it. You. How about that?

Not true and not true. Scum does not have an incentive to oppose it, and I'm not opposing it.

Scum might intentionally bus a partner especially if they think defending them is too dangerous but scum is absolutely incentivized to keep themselves alive, especially this early.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Haddock on January 25, 2019, 07:21:20 pm
Oh by the way I keep meaning to say, if I haven't already: there is nothing I did N1 that would have prevented LaLight's claimed thing from happening.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Swowl on January 25, 2019, 07:54:15 pm
OK so I have just been playing catchup (sorry) work has been a nightmare. I keep reading up and then realizing a ton of stuff happened while I was gone and then reading again... and etc etc. So I am just gonna post major points here and get to deets later. First off:

alright then

I am Queter, a Radch-Aligned Shy Bugged Compulsive Visitor. I have to visit someone every night. If I don't get targeted by anyone and my Visit will be successful, I will become Self-Aligned with powers and win condition yet unknown. Bugged part of my role is that if investigated I will return Human or AI result with 50% probability for each. N1 I targeted Haddock and nothing happened.

LL, can you help me understand this better? You visited Haddock, but your visit was not successful since you did not become Self-aligned? (Is targeted the same as visited?)

Well, I targeted Haddock. I have no idea if I was visiting him in the end (I might've been roleblocked or I might've been visited). Or maybe Haddovck commuted or was rolestopped. I have no idea, but I did not have a choice to change alignment, basically I didn't get any response

- I do not think this comes as skum. It could come off as a Survivor claim, but it could also come off as a SK claim or skum claim. I think on the spot like LL was, they would of taken a different route as skum in regards to the content of their claim.

- Additionally I know what my role is, and there is a specific part of it that by no means "clears" LL here... but also pushes me in the direction of believing them.

What do you make of the whole “doesn’t work in the rules” thing?

I think either i am wrong and LL made a mistake when fake claiming (unlikely imo)... or the “self aligned” role would have some sort of variable in the untold part that is similar to hyper cubes (i.e. everything goes through and instead of becoming self aligned automatically they are given some form of choice or parameters). Or the third option where i just don’t know - it is the only hold up i currently havenon LL- i keep remembering Lost when they were SK and messed up there claim day 2 there so i am fighting with myself currently
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on January 25, 2019, 08:20:39 pm
Welcome back, Swan! You’ve been missed. I hope the post-vacation letdown/jet lag hasn’t clobbered you.

Our insight has kind of stalled, so get to reading!
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on January 25, 2019, 08:46:05 pm
OK so I have just been playing catchup (sorry) work has been a nightmare. I keep reading up and then realizing a ton of stuff happened while I was gone and then reading again... and etc etc. So I am just gonna post major points here and get to deets later. First off:

alright then

I am Queter, a Radch-Aligned Shy Bugged Compulsive Visitor. I have to visit someone every night. If I don't get targeted by anyone and my Visit will be successful, I will become Self-Aligned with powers and win condition yet unknown. Bugged part of my role is that if investigated I will return Human or AI result with 50% probability for each. N1 I targeted Haddock and nothing happened.

LL, can you help me understand this better? You visited Haddock, but your visit was not successful since you did not become Self-aligned? (Is targeted the same as visited?)

Well, I targeted Haddock. I have no idea if I was visiting him in the end (I might've been roleblocked or I might've been visited). Or maybe Haddovck commuted or was rolestopped. I have no idea, but I did not have a choice to change alignment, basically I didn't get any response

- I do not think this comes as skum. It could come off as a Survivor claim, but it could also come off as a SK claim or skum claim. I think on the spot like LL was, they would of taken a different route as skum in regards to the content of their claim.

- Additionally I know what my role is, and there is a specific part of it that by no means "clears" LL here... but also pushes me in the direction of believing them.

What do you make of the whole “doesn’t work in the rules” thing?

I think either i am wrong and LL made a mistake when fake claiming (unlikely imo)... or the “self aligned” role would have some sort of variable in the untold part that is similar to hyper cubes (i.e. everything goes through and instead of becoming self aligned automatically they are given some form of choice or parameters). Or the third option where i just don’t know - it is the only hold up i currently havenon LL- i keep remembering Lost when they were SK and messed up there claim day 2 there so i am fighting with myself currently

I think it’s a little too convenient that LaLight forgot to mention the optional part of her conversion until someone pointed it out.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on January 25, 2019, 08:47:43 pm
Oh by the way I keep meaning to say, if I haven't already: there is nothing I did N1 that would have prevented LaLight's claimed thing from happening.

If we want to go down this road (and I’m not certain we do) I should claim a little more.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Swowl on January 26, 2019, 12:47:56 am
Ok so we got Ash who is some day Vig of sorts with a hated attribute -2.... they were also lynch proof yesterday and did not know about it. If there is one thing that i absolutely believe about Ash claim it is the bit about “day one shot effecting something about their future shots”... just cuz it could be true regardless of alignment and it kind of explains why shoot day one... again regardless of alignment.

Then we got Hypercube - not worth too much worry as it’s kind of a “if they wake up tomorrow wtf” situation. But that aside i believe them at this point.

Onto E! Which everyone has brought up the potential Ash/E! Thing. What i find funny is that no one re visited this from a different angle after LL claimed. If I’m reading LL right, a cop result is random yeah? 50/50 on town or skum.... so if something like that is in play... it is completely possible that E! Got a false result (if that makes sense).


Also we should remember that MCMC flipped MD - so that opened a lot of doors for skum to feel safe fake claiming information because that’s a big informative role out the window already.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Swowl on January 26, 2019, 12:59:14 am
Oh by the way I keep meaning to say, if I haven't already: there is nothing I did N1 that would have prevented LaLight's claimed thing from happening.

If we want to go down this road (and I’m not certain we do) I should claim a little more.

Does “a little more” mean you have already claimed something i am missing? Or just in general?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Glooble on January 26, 2019, 02:41:19 am
Oh by the way I keep meaning to say, if I haven't already: there is nothing I did N1 that would have prevented LaLight's claimed thing from happening.

If we want to go down this road (and I’m not certain we do) I should claim a little more.

Does “a little more” mean you have already claimed something i am missing? Or just in general?

She claimed that her role let her name one player and target another and that she named LL but didn’t target her.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: faust on January 26, 2019, 02:53:51 am
Vote Count 2.4

jotheonah (1): mail-mi
LaLight (4): Glooble, hypercube, Haddock, jotheonah
2.71828..... (1): LaLight
DatSwan (1): Awaclus

Not Voting (6): SpaceAnemone, DatSwan, WestCoastDidds, Robz888, ashersky, 2.71828.....

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch. Day 2 ends on January 29, 2019, 01:00:00 am.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Swowl on January 26, 2019, 03:09:06 am
Oh by the way I keep meaning to say, if I haven't already: there is nothing I did N1 that would have prevented LaLight's claimed thing from happening.

If we want to go down this road (and I’m not certain we do) I should claim a little more.

Does “a little more” mean you have already claimed something i am missing? Or just in general?

She claimed that her role let her name one player and target another and that she named LL but didn’t target her.

oh right the mtg thing - totally forgot about that.

In that case, my vote is yes let's go down the rabbit hole (@joth). If you have the ability to "name/target", then it is probably a component of the game that exists more than once. Learning more about it will probably be beneficial as we have to assume as least someone of a skum/sk/evil/whatever faction knows how it works.

Complete honesty a little bit of it is because I do not understand how it operates (and I have played A LOT of mtg, so I get the general concept)... I just don't get how it works here. So I guess... maybe claim isn't necessary if you think it is best to hold back info.. but an understanding of the what it is that it can do probably would be beneficial. (I say all of that assuming that if you had damning evidence of sorts, you would not be hesitant about sharing it of course)
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: 2.71828..... on January 26, 2019, 03:37:39 am
Sorry, just got a bit busy the last day or so. Really need to reread everything after LaLight's claim, should be able to do that later today.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Awaclus on January 26, 2019, 04:14:54 am
Scum might intentionally bus a partner especially if they think defending them is too dangerous

Might? Scum is definitely going to intentionally bus a partner they know scumslipped.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Glooble on January 26, 2019, 07:33:54 am
Scum might intentionally bus a partner especially if they think defending them is too dangerous

Might? Scum is definitely going to intentionally bus a partner they know scumslipped.

Depends on the severity of the slip. You and I obviously play this game differently as scum. Lalight is still alive and 3 votes from lynching, so clearly her death is preventable. If I were scum who hadn’t voted yet right now, I wouldn’t be bussing. I would be looking for some convoluted way to keep her alive while also distancing myself from her.

I.e. exactly what you’re doing.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Glooble on January 26, 2019, 07:37:11 am
So if you are scum, then we play the same as scum, but if you’re town then we play very differently as scum. To clarify.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Awaclus on January 26, 2019, 07:47:47 am
Depends on the severity of the slip. You and I obviously play this game differently as scum. Lalight is still alive and 3 votes from lynching, so clearly her death is preventable. If I were scum who hadn’t voted yet right now, I wouldn’t be bussing. I would be looking for some convoluted way to keep her alive while also distancing myself from her.

I.e. exactly what you’re doing.

What I would do if I was scum was busing as hard as I can. I.e. exactly what you're doing.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Glooble on January 26, 2019, 07:49:56 am
Except I started the wagon. And have been pushing it consistently.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Awaclus on January 26, 2019, 07:53:28 am
Except I started the wagon. And have been pushing it consistently.

It's not like your explanation of what I'm doing was at all more accurate, given that I'm not trying to keep LL alive, I'm talking about him all the time instead of distancing myself from him, and there is nothing convoluted about the simple concept of inflation.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Haddock on January 26, 2019, 08:03:08 am
Oh by the way I keep meaning to say, if I haven't already: there is nothing I did N1 that would have prevented LaLight's claimed thing from happening.

If we want to go down this road (and I’m not certain we do) I should claim a little more.
Entirely your choice.  I didn't intend for there to be lots of claims, I just felt I could reveal that without giving away anything much about my role.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on January 26, 2019, 08:08:40 am
I see what hyper have said. But it still rubs me the wrong way. Third-parties do not work with town. maybe faust overrode this somehow, but then why wouldn't one of those third-party guys told us so? Why wouldn't hyper then convert and claim basically the same thing, but staying alive? if they are not the enemy, that is. hyper would be alive, scum would need to kill one more person. But no, hyper declined and we lose a person, who in any case would help town, being either town or so-called helping third party

Reading back, this response, coming from LL (who prefers to play town, I'm pretty sure), seems actually quite consistent with his faction-change claim, in that it shows some frustration with faction changes. I do wonder whether he has some inkling of how town-aligned he'd end up if he takes the faction change, though.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: ashersky on January 26, 2019, 09:00:52 am
LL retconning an option into his claim is scummy.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on January 26, 2019, 09:20:52 am
I keep forgetting that Hyper is going to die today. If LL is Radch, too, and if there is a NK that is a rather dramatic decrease in our town folk.  :-\

Hey, why didn’t anyone die during N1? I was so caught up in the Asher kill and then lynchproof and Joth hated parts that I hadn’t processed the lack of a nightkill.

The Glooble/Awaclus discussion makes me feel pretty towny about both of them, although maybe that is the point. I’ve never actually seen Awa engage this much with someone so it seems out of the ordinary for him, but the nature of his engagement is consistent with my (limited) Awa experience.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: ashersky on January 26, 2019, 09:57:49 am
Has anyone pointed out that giving the hated modified out as a night action is definitely a scum-style power?

Did Joth suggest that likelihood. I think he did. Something about helping along the easy mislynch, I think.

Did anyone then mention that a good scum tactic for gaining towncred would be to use said scum power on a member of your own faction?  And doing so early in the game is sensible for safety and maximum benefit?

No, I guess that hadn’t been pointed out yet.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on January 26, 2019, 10:02:42 am
I keep forgetting that Hyper is going to die today. If LL is Radch, too, and if there is a NK that is a rather dramatic decrease in our town folk.  :-\

Hey, why didn’t anyone die during N1? I was so caught up in the Asher kill and then lynchproof and Joth hated parts that I hadn’t processed the lack of a nightkill.

The Glooble/Awaclus discussion makes me feel pretty towny about both of them, although maybe that is the point. I’ve never actually seen Awa engage this much with someone so it seems out of the ordinary for him, but the nature of his engagement is consistent with my (limited) Awa experience.
I keep forgetting that Hyper is going to die today. If LL is Radch, too, and if there is a NK that is a rather dramatic decrease in our town folk.  :-\

Hey, why didn’t anyone die during N1? I was so caught up in the Asher kill and then lynchproof and Joth hated parts that I hadn’t processed the lack of a nightkill.

The Glooble/Awaclus discussion makes me feel pretty towny about both of them, although maybe that is the point. I’ve never actually seen Awa engage this much with someone so it seems out of the ordinary for him, but the nature of his engagement is consistent with my (limited) Awa experience.

The most likely possibility is we have a doctor and they got lucky/played well. A town doc obviously wouldn’t want to claim here (and rightly so).

It could also be a roleblocker, but in that case they maybe should claim since they have a pretty good idea their target is scum. Or it could be a jailkeeper, in which case it’s 50/50 if they targeted the victim or the shooter.

But we don’t know and probably don’t gain much by speculating. If a person thinks they should claim they will.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on January 26, 2019, 10:04:20 am
Has anyone pointed out that giving the hated modified out as a night action is definitely a scum-style power?

Did Joth suggest that likelihood. I think he did. Something about helping along the easy mislynch, I think.

Did anyone then mention that a good scum tactic for gaining towncred would be to use said scum power on a member of your own faction?  And doing so early in the game is sensible for safety and maximum benefit?

No, I guess that hadn’t been pointed out yet.

Keeping in mind that I’m town and so I know this isn’t true, I can definitely see it. But it might be something some scum, especially new scum, might not think of or might not be gutsy enough to do.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: hypercube on January 26, 2019, 10:48:30 am
I am Queter, a Radch-Aligned Shy Bugged Compulsive Visitor. I have to visit someone every night. If I don't get targeted by anyone and my Visit will be successful, I will become Self-Aligned with powers and win condition yet unknown. Bugged part of my role is that if investigated I will return Human or AI result with 50% probability for each. N1 I targeted Haddock and nothing happened.

Two other points about LL's claim that have me thinking that it could easily be fake:

The "Shy" modifier presumably is related to the alignment-changing part of the claim. However, LL's alignment would change if she's unable to visit or if no-one targets her; that sounds like the opposite of shy to me, so it could be a modification of a real role that LL knows about somehow.

"Bugged" makes sense for a role that would give an AI a chance as identifying as human, but less so for a role that would give a human a chance of identifying as AI. Of course faust could have given the Bugged modifier to various people and just called it the same thing in all cases, but it feels a bit out of place here and could easily be something that scum!LL took from her true role or one of her teammates' roles.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: hypercube on January 26, 2019, 10:50:27 am
Has anyone pointed out that giving the hated modified out as a night action is definitely a scum-style power?

Did Joth suggest that likelihood. I think he did. Something about helping along the easy mislynch, I think.

Did anyone then mention that a good scum tactic for gaining towncred would be to use said scum power on a member of your own faction?  And doing so early in the game is sensible for safety and maximum benefit?

No, I guess that hadn’t been pointed out yet.

It's also possible that it's a scum power and they didn't know that it would be announced publicly. Personally I don't think it says anything about joth's alignment one way or the other.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: hypercube on January 26, 2019, 10:56:34 am
If we think LL is the person most likely to be scum, we should lynch her today regardless of how informative the wagon is (and I think at this point it's decently informative). This is an RMM, we don't know what powers scum could have but we probably want to minimize their opportunities to use them.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Awaclus on January 26, 2019, 12:16:29 pm
If we think LL is the person most likely to be scum, we should lynch her today regardless of how informative the wagon is

Well, that's already a lot better than lynching him just because he's low/potentially negative utility even if he's telling the truth.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Haddock on January 26, 2019, 12:24:21 pm
I keep forgetting that Hyper is going to die today. If LL is Radch, too, and if there is a NK that is a rather dramatic decrease in our town folk.  :-\

Hey, why didn’t anyone die during N1? I was so caught up in the Asher kill and then lynchproof and Joth hated parts that I hadn’t processed the lack of a nightkill.

The Glooble/Awaclus discussion makes me feel pretty towny about both of them, although maybe that is the point. I’ve never actually seen Awa engage this much with someone so it seems out of the ordinary for him, but the nature of his engagement is consistent with my (limited) Awa experience.
I keep forgetting that Hyper is going to die today. If LL is Radch, too, and if there is a NK that is a rather dramatic decrease in our town folk.  :-\

Hey, why didn’t anyone die during N1? I was so caught up in the Asher kill and then lynchproof and Joth hated parts that I hadn’t processed the lack of a nightkill.

The Glooble/Awaclus discussion makes me feel pretty towny about both of them, although maybe that is the point. I’ve never actually seen Awa engage this much with someone so it seems out of the ordinary for him, but the nature of his engagement is consistent with my (limited) Awa experience.

The most likely possibility is we have a doctor and they got lucky/played well. A town doc obviously wouldn’t want to claim here (and rightly so).

It could also be a roleblocker, but in that case they maybe should claim since they have a pretty good idea their target is scum. Or it could be a jailkeeper, in which case it’s 50/50 if they targeted the victim or the shooter.

But we don’t know and probably don’t gain much by speculating. If a person thinks they should claim they will.

I had a thought that maybe the lack of kill is because this weird hypercube recruitment thing is like a kill-substitute?
After all it results always in the loss of a town player...

I am Queter, a Radch-Aligned Shy Bugged Compulsive Visitor. I have to visit someone every night. If I don't get targeted by anyone and my Visit will be successful, I will become Self-Aligned with powers and win condition yet unknown. Bugged part of my role is that if investigated I will return Human or AI result with 50% probability for each. N1 I targeted Haddock and nothing happened.

Two other points about LL's claim that have me thinking that it could easily be fake:

The "Shy" modifier presumably is related to the alignment-changing part of the claim. However, LL's alignment would change if she's unable to visit or if no-one targets her; that sounds like the opposite of shy to me, so it could be a modification of a real role that LL knows about somehow.

"Bugged" makes sense for a role that would give an AI a chance as identifying as human, but less so for a role that would give a human a chance of identifying as AI. Of course faust could have given the Bugged modifier to various people and just called it the same thing in all cases, but it feels a bit out of place here and could easily be something that scum!LL took from her true role or one of her teammates' roles.
I think once again you're reading wrong?
I understood that LLs alignment changes unless she was blocked.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: hypercube on January 26, 2019, 01:06:18 pm
If we think LL is the person most likely to be scum, we should lynch her today regardless of how informative the wagon is

Well, that's already a lot better than lynching him just because he's low/potentially negative utility even if he's telling the truth.

As you said, it's important to consider both of the possible scenarios.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: hypercube on January 26, 2019, 01:09:04 pm
I had a thought that maybe the lack of kill is because this weird hypercube recruitment thing is like a kill-substitute?
After all it results always in the loss of a town player...

Doesn't make sense, since the cult also needs to exterminate scum to win. If anything is a kill substitute it's ash's dayvig.

I think once again you're reading wrong?
I understood that LLs alignment changes unless she was blocked.

Yes, I got that backwards again.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Awaclus on January 26, 2019, 01:51:30 pm
As you said, it's important to consider both of the possible scenarios.

I don't think I said and I'm not even sure if I agree with the statement. I feel like I should, but the problem is when people like Haddock (and me) conclude that lynching town!LL is still pretty decent for town, which it kind of is in a vacuum but that fact makes it completely useless for me and Haddock to be on that wagon.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: mail-mi on January 26, 2019, 02:50:27 pm
My question is just, what motivation does scum!LL have to claim that? Yes, there is wifom, but saying "I may eventually betray town so go ahead and lynch me" just does NOT sound like a good scum tactic.

Ash (I think it was ash?) pointing out how adding the "Oh yeah I get to choose if I switch alignments" after the initial claim is a good point. However, I still don't see the benefit (as scum) to making a claim like that.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Glooble on January 26, 2019, 03:07:49 pm
My question is just, what motivation does scum!LL have to claim that? Yes, there is wifom, but saying "I may eventually betray town so go ahead and lynch me" just does NOT sound like a good scum tactic.

Ash (I think it was ash?) pointing out how adding the "Oh yeah I get to choose if I switch alignments" after the initial claim is a good point. However, I still don't see the benefit (as scum) to making a claim like that.

Except it worked. It stalled the wagon. Precisely because it doesn't make sense.

I leave it to people who know LaLight better than I do- is this the kind of moved she would pull? Claim something that seems like it would make the town more likely to lynch her than act all contrite?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on January 26, 2019, 03:19:23 pm
My question is just, what motivation does scum!LL have to claim that? Yes, there is wifom, but saying "I may eventually betray town so go ahead and lynch me" just does NOT sound like a good scum tactic.

Ash (I think it was ash?) pointing out how adding the "Oh yeah I get to choose if I switch alignments" after the initial claim is a good point. However, I still don't see the benefit (as scum) to making a claim like that.

We don't know how extensive the fakeclaims provided by faust were.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: hypercube on January 26, 2019, 03:54:26 pm
As you said, it's important to consider both of the possible scenarios.

I don't think I said and I'm not even sure if I agree with the statement. I feel like I should, but the problem is when people like Haddock (and me) conclude that lynching town!LL is still pretty decent for town, which it kind of is in a vacuum but that fact makes it completely useless for me and Haddock to be on that wagon.

So you're saying you do think she's scum... but you don't want to lynch her?

No, I don't know if he's scum or not, that's why I'm considering both of the possible scenarios. In both of the possible scenarios, both town and scum want to be on the wagon so it doesn't tell us anything about anyone's alignment, which is why we should have a more informative lynch today and focus on this later, preferably when we also have more info.

This is why I don't like your arguments, you've gone back and forth between the argument that LL is scum and the people on the wagon are bussing and the argument that LL is town and people are only on the wagon because her claimed role is anti-town.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Awaclus on January 26, 2019, 04:01:10 pm
This is why I don't like your arguments, you've gone back and forth between the argument that LL is scum and the people on the wagon are bussing and the argument that LL is town and people are only on the wagon because her claimed role is anti-town.

Both of those have been a part of my argument all the time, I have just focused on whichever aspect someone else has been commenting on. Regardless of LL's alignment, we don't learn anything, that's the point.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: hypercube on January 26, 2019, 04:08:59 pm
As you said, it's important to consider both of the possible scenarios.

I don't think I said and I'm not even sure if I agree with the statement. I feel like I should, but the problem is when people like Haddock (and me) conclude that lynching town!LL is still pretty decent for town, which it kind of is in a vacuum but that fact makes it completely useless for me and Haddock to be on that wagon.

This is why I don't like your arguments, you've gone back and forth between the argument that LL is scum and the people on the wagon are bussing and the argument that LL is town and people are only on the wagon because her claimed role is anti-town.

Both of those have been a part of my argument all the time, I have just focused on whichever aspect someone else has been commenting on. Regardless of LL's alignment, we don't learn anything, that's the point.

You're just contradicting yourself now.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on January 26, 2019, 04:16:08 pm
This is why I don't like your arguments, you've gone back and forth between the argument that LL is scum and the people on the wagon are bussing and the argument that LL is town and people are only on the wagon because her claimed role is anti-town.

Both of those have been a part of my argument all the time, I have just focused on whichever aspect someone else has been commenting on. Regardless of LL's alignment, we don't learn anything, that's the point.

I still don't understand what you mean by this. We learn exactly as much as we do from any other non-policy lynch.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on January 26, 2019, 04:16:51 pm
For instance, I'll learn that if LaLight flips scum, we should probably lynch Awaclus tomorrow.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: hypercube on January 26, 2019, 04:18:51 pm
For instance, I'll learn that if LaLight flips scum, we should probably lynch Awaclus tomorrow.

We could also do it the other way around!

vote: Awaclus
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Awaclus on January 26, 2019, 04:39:15 pm
As you said, it's important to consider both of the possible scenarios.

I don't think I said and I'm not even sure if I agree with the statement. I feel like I should, but the problem is when people like Haddock (and me) conclude that lynching town!LL is still pretty decent for town, which it kind of is in a vacuum but that fact makes it completely useless for me and Haddock to be on that wagon.

This is why I don't like your arguments, you've gone back and forth between the argument that LL is scum and the people on the wagon are bussing and the argument that LL is town and people are only on the wagon because her claimed role is anti-town.

Both of those have been a part of my argument all the time, I have just focused on whichever aspect someone else has been commenting on. Regardless of LL's alignment, we don't learn anything, that's the point.

You're just contradicting yourself now.

I'm not. I am considering both of the possible scenarios, but the fact that I am makes it useless for me to vote for LL, which is why I'm not sure it's good for me or anyone else to do so.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Awaclus on January 26, 2019, 04:41:41 pm
For instance, I'll learn that if LaLight flips scum, we should probably lynch Awaclus tomorrow.

The principle of inflation exists regardless of LaLight's alignment and regardless of my alignment. The fact that I'm bringing it up is pro-town.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Awaclus on January 26, 2019, 04:46:02 pm
I still don't understand what you mean by this. We learn exactly as much as we do from any other non-policy lynch.

If LaLight is scum:
 - If I am scum: I have an incentive to vote for LaLight
 - If I am town: I have an incentive to vote for LaLight

If LaLight is town:
 - If I am scum: I have an incentive to vote for LaLight
 - If I am town: I have an incentive to vote for LaLight

Everything that you'll learn from LaLight's flip, regardless of what it is, is that I had an incentive to vote for him. Which you already know. So you don't really learn anything, which is why there is no point for me to vote for him.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Glooble on January 26, 2019, 06:25:18 pm
I still don't understand what you mean by this. We learn exactly as much as we do from any other non-policy lynch.

If LaLight is scum:
 - If I am scum: I have an incentive to vote for LaLight
 - If I am town: I have an incentive to vote for LaLight

If LaLight is town:
 - If I am scum: I have an incentive to vote for LaLight
 - If I am town: I have an incentive to vote for LaLight

Everything that you'll learn from LaLight's flip, regardless of what it is, is that I had an incentive to vote for him. Which you already know. So you don't really learn anything, which is why there is no point for me to vote for him.

That only applies to people who vote after the claim. Which is two people! Even if we accept your logic we’re getting two people less information. In exchange for a lynch that helps town in nearly every scenario.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on January 26, 2019, 06:34:48 pm
there is no point for me to vote for him.

except, you know, our wincon
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on January 26, 2019, 06:35:42 pm
For instance, I'll learn that if LaLight flips scum, we should probably lynch Awaclus tomorrow.

We could also do it the other way around!

vote: Awaclus

I'm down.

vote: Awaclus
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: hypercube on January 26, 2019, 06:42:08 pm
I still don't understand what you mean by this. We learn exactly as much as we do from any other non-policy lynch.

If LaLight is scum:
 - If I am scum: I have an incentive to vote for LaLight
 - If I am town: I have an incentive to vote for LaLight

If LaLight is town:
 - If I am scum: I have an incentive to vote for LaLight
 - If I am town: I have an incentive to vote for LaLight

Everything that you'll learn from LaLight's flip, regardless of what it is, is that I had an incentive to vote for him. Which you already know. So you don't really learn anything, which is why there is no point for me to vote for him.

That only applies to people who vote after the claim. Which is two people! Even if we accept your logic we’re getting two people less information. In exchange for a lynch that helps town in nearly every scenario.

Agreed, I actually don't see any reason why scum would have an incentive to vote for scum!LL after the claim. It would be a kind of obviously bussy vote. Instead scum might, I don't know, engage in an extended campaign to try to get people to vote for someone else while denying that they're defending LL.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Robz888 on January 26, 2019, 06:59:03 pm
I am starting to read day 2 now, is there anything I need to know more urgently then that?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Haddock on January 26, 2019, 07:00:39 pm
I am always down for an Awaclus lynch.

however.  Can we just have some constructive conversation about like, anything else first.  It's clear Awa and me/others won't agree, so rather than continue this (it's just one vote after all), we could talk about other stuff.

Like whether we think Swan is scummy.  I think a bit, but Swan is a tricky one for me to read.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Glooble on January 26, 2019, 07:01:37 pm
I am starting to read day 2 now, is there anything I need to know more urgently then that?

The only real wagon is collapsing now so I think it’s unlikely we lynch anyone before you catch up.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: hypercube on January 26, 2019, 07:34:57 pm
I am always down for an Awaclus lynch.

however.  Can we just have some constructive conversation about like, anything else first.  It's clear Awa and me/others won't agree, so rather than continue this (it's just one vote after all), we could talk about other stuff.

Like whether we think Swan is scummy.  I think a bit, but Swan is a tricky one for me to read.

I keep going back and forth between "Swan is a bit scummy" and "Swan is a bit towny." So pretty null overall for me.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: ashersky on January 26, 2019, 07:41:01 pm
I had a thought that maybe the lack of kill is because this weird hypercube recruitment thing is like a kill-substitute?
After all it results always in the loss of a town player...

Doesn't make sense, since the cult also needs to exterminate scum to win. If anything is a kill substitute it's ash's dayvig.

Or there is no cult and the scum kill is “join or die.”
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Robz888 on January 26, 2019, 07:41:12 pm
Lol I am just now realizing mcmc is dead.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: hypercube on January 26, 2019, 07:42:05 pm
I had a thought that maybe the lack of kill is because this weird hypercube recruitment thing is like a kill-substitute?
After all it results always in the loss of a town player...

Doesn't make sense, since the cult also needs to exterminate scum to win. If anything is a kill substitute it's ash's dayvig.

Or there is no cult and the scum kill is “join or die.”

Are you suggesting that faust was lying or that I'm lying?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Haddock on January 26, 2019, 07:50:22 pm
I had a thought that maybe the lack of kill is because this weird hypercube recruitment thing is like a kill-substitute?
After all it results always in the loss of a town player...

Doesn't make sense, since the cult also needs to exterminate scum to win. If anything is a kill substitute it's ash's dayvig.

Or there is no cult and the scum kill is “join or die.”

Are you suggesting that faust was lying or that I'm lying?
I'm not really suggesting either, just speculating: you never did confirm that the info you had was mod confirmed; as I asked before  is it possible you have been deceived? That is, did this information about this cultish third party come from faust or via some kind of message?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: hypercube on January 26, 2019, 07:51:42 pm

Again, this is all based on information I received directly from faust, so I don't think it's possible that I've been misled.

Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on January 26, 2019, 08:25:43 pm
LL retconning an option into his claim is scummy.

Yes, I agree with this. I'll vote there to get a lynch through, but I'm not also trying to work out whether LL's claim still has more to tell us about the game setup.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Awaclus on January 26, 2019, 08:30:16 pm
except, you know, our wincon

It is irrelevant to our wincon whether we lynch LL now or later. And therefore we should be getting a more informative lynch now because it is relevant to get that sooner rather than later.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on January 26, 2019, 08:43:50 pm
I am always down for an Awaclus lynch.

however.  Can we just have some constructive conversation about like, anything else first.  It's clear Awa and me/others won't agree, so rather than continue this (it's just one vote after all), we could talk about other stuff.

Like whether we think Swan is scummy.  I think a bit, but Swan is a tricky one for me to read.

This post seems townish from you, even though advocating a blanket Awa lynch isn't the most pro-town of things.

I re-read Swan, and can see whether you're coming from. The thing that struck me most was that he was quite concerned about Ash's dayvig shot, so if Swan is scum then I think that was something they weren't expecting.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on January 26, 2019, 09:18:17 pm
Lol I am just now realizing mcmc is dead.

Pour one out for Mcmc. Damn shame.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: mail-mi on January 26, 2019, 10:46:55 pm
My question is just, what motivation does scum!LL have to claim that? Yes, there is wifom, but saying "I may eventually betray town so go ahead and lynch me" just does NOT sound like a good scum tactic.

Ash (I think it was ash?) pointing out how adding the "Oh yeah I get to choose if I switch alignments" after the initial claim is a good point. However, I still don't see the benefit (as scum) to making a claim like that.

Except it worked. It stalled the wagon. Precisely because it doesn't make sense.

I leave it to people who know LaLight better than I do- is this the kind of moved she would pull? Claim something that seems like it would make the town more likely to lynch her than act all contrite?

Again, like I said, wifom. I think LL is town and we should look elsewhere for scum
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Swowl on January 26, 2019, 10:49:51 pm
I am always down for an Awaclus lynch.

however.  Can we just have some constructive conversation about like, anything else first.  It's clear Awa and me/others won't agree, so rather than continue this (it's just one vote after all), we could talk about other stuff.

Like whether we think Swan is scummy.  I think a bit, but Swan is a tricky one for me to read.

I keep going back and forth between "Swan is a bit scummy" and "Swan is a bit towny." So pretty null overall for me.


Well I know some of your opinion of me possibly being skummy is that the conversation awaclus and i had on day 1 was skummy... so idk if it changes your all around read but i am absolutely in for a
Vote: Awaclus
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Swowl on January 26, 2019, 10:51:36 pm
I had a thought that maybe the lack of kill is because this weird hypercube recruitment thing is like a kill-substitute?
After all it results always in the loss of a town player...

Doesn't make sense, since the cult also needs to exterminate scum to win. If anything is a kill substitute it's ash's dayvig.

Or there is no cult and the scum kill is “join or die.”

I also considered this when i was trying to figure out the balance of the claims - could make sense.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: faust on January 27, 2019, 03:09:01 am
Vote Count 2.5

jotheonah (1): mail-mi
LaLight (2): Glooble, Haddock
2.71828..... (1): LaLight
DatSwan (1): Awaclus
Awaclus (3): hypercube, jotheonah, DatSwan

Not Voting (5): SpaceAnemone, WestCoastDidds, Robz888, ashersky, 2.71828.....

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch. Day 2 ends on January 29, 2019, 01:00:00 am. That is in 46 hours.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Glooble on January 27, 2019, 07:54:05 am
My whole case on Awaclus being scum is predicated on LaLight being scum so I’d much rather lynch LaLight today.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: 2.71828..... on January 27, 2019, 08:04:18 am
I want to lynch either LaLight or DatSwan today.

vote: DatSwan
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: 2.71828..... on January 27, 2019, 08:05:18 am
DatSwan has been very scummy to me after LaLight's claim.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Glooble on January 27, 2019, 08:08:07 am
I’ll reread DatSwan today and decide if that’s acceptable to me.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: 2.71828..... on January 27, 2019, 08:18:46 am
I think Awaclus has been very townie in his D2 exchanges, not sure why he is getting all the votes.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: 2.71828..... on January 27, 2019, 08:48:22 am
Thoughts on DatSwan:

PPE a ton of catch up since LL claim. But for now i am essentially edged on believing all claims to at least an extent. Reasons to follow.

So, here we have DatSwan stating the "believe all claims" at least to an extent.  Scum knows more than town, generally knows when town is telling the truth.  Sometimes they ignore the truths town states, but at other times they accept and "believe all claims" because they know town is telling the truth, and then after flips, etc., they will be proven "correct" and therefore townie.

Datswan doubles down on this later:

OK so I have just been playing catchup (sorry) work has been a nightmare. I keep reading up and then realizing a ton of stuff happened while I was gone and then reading again... and etc etc. So I am just gonna post major points here and get to deets later. First off:

alright then

I am Queter, a Radch-Aligned Shy Bugged Compulsive Visitor. I have to visit someone every night. If I don't get targeted by anyone and my Visit will be successful, I will become Self-Aligned with powers and win condition yet unknown. Bugged part of my role is that if investigated I will return Human or AI result with 50% probability for each. N1 I targeted Haddock and nothing happened.

LL, can you help me understand this better? You visited Haddock, but your visit was not successful since you did not become Self-aligned? (Is targeted the same as visited?)

Well, I targeted Haddock. I have no idea if I was visiting him in the end (I might've been roleblocked or I might've been visited). Or maybe Haddovck commuted or was rolestopped. I have no idea, but I did not have a choice to change alignment, basically I didn't get any response

- I do not think this comes as skum. It could come off as a Survivor claim, but it could also come off as a SK claim or skum claim. I think on the spot like LL was, they would of taken a different route as skum in regards to the content of their claim.

- Additionally I know what my role is, and there is a specific part of it that by no means "clears" LL here... but also pushes me in the direction of believing them.

Those two points can basically read: I am scum, I know LaLight isn't, possible SK, possible survivor, but not scum.

Then DatSwan changes the topic of conversation in this post (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=19374.msg784461#msg784461) to Ash, hypercube, myself, and mcmc.  And then jumps on a very opportunistic Awaclus wagon.

All the scum feels, none of the townie feels.

The redirection made me think that DatSwan and LaLight could potentially be partners, and I was tempted to switch back to LaLight and lynch them first, if they flip scum move on to DatSwan.  But I think I like my theories about scum!Swan knowing information and white knighting LaLight makes more sense.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on January 27, 2019, 09:55:52 am
I am not feeling the Awaclus votes. He seems more town than not.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Glooble on January 27, 2019, 09:57:33 am
I'd rather lynch DatSwan today than Awaclus, so if we get close to the deadline and the Awaclus wagon is in the lead I'll probably switch my vote.

That being said I'd rather lynch LL than either of them, both because I think her alignment will actually tell us a lot and because I'm nearly certain she's scum.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Glooble on January 27, 2019, 10:12:03 am
So in the process of trying to write this post I think I've convinced myself that Awaclus is probably scum. I know this contradicts what I just stated, but I've had a bit of a breakthrough.

Scenario 1: LL is scum. Awaclus is also scum and is trying to forestall LLs lynch one night. Maybe to give LL a chance to use a 1-shot power? Maybe in the hopes that night 2 will give info that will allow her to push an alternate lynch. This is the scenario I've been leaning towards.

Scenario 2:  Awaclus is town, does not know LL's alignment, and honestly believes the fuzzy logic she's been expounding about LL's lynch not being informative.

Scenario 3: LL is town. Awaclus is scum, and knows LL is town, and wants to get town points for looking like she's trying to stop a town lynch.

Having laid this out, scenario two feels like far and away the least likely to me. Awaclus's behavior looks scummy to me regardless of LL's alignment.

I still really want to lynch LL.

But.

This is good too.

vote: Awaclus
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: hypercube on January 27, 2019, 10:21:59 am
Yeah, after sleeping on it I think LL is a better lynch today than Awa. All of LL's reactions say "caught scum" to me, I would really hope that if LL was town he would try to act towards his wincon even after he was forced to claim; while Awaclus hasn't done anything on quite that level of scumminess.

If LL flips scum, certainly Awaclus is the next person I'd voting for. E's Swan case is pretty decent, so maybe Swan is a good person to look at tomorrow if LL flips town. I would be interested in hearing Swan explain what he was getting at with his "believe all claims" comment.

vote: LL

PPE I see that Glooble has come to the opposite conclusion as me
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Glooble on January 27, 2019, 10:43:52 am
PPE I see that Glooble has come to the opposite conclusion as me

Happy with either really.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Haddock on January 27, 2019, 10:45:38 am
I am always down for an Awaclus lynch.

however.  Can we just have some constructive conversation about like, anything else first.  It's clear Awa and me/others won't agree, so rather than continue this (it's just one vote after all), we could talk about other stuff.

Like whether we think Swan is scummy.  I think a bit, but Swan is a tricky one for me to read.

This post seems townish from you, even though advocating a blanket Awa lynch isn't the most pro-town of things.

I re-read Swan, and can see whether you're coming from. The thing that struck me most was that he was quite concerned about Ash's dayvig shot, so if Swan is scum then I think that was something they weren't expecting.
Why are you so keen to simultaneously throw shade at me and also hedge on me?  I don't like it.

I'm so obviously not advocating an Awa lynch in the above, I think it's clear that I'm making a meta comment; namely that I find Awaclus completely unreadable because he's always exactly the same amount of annoying.

Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Haddock on January 27, 2019, 10:46:07 am
Thoughts on DatSwan:

PPE a ton of catch up since LL claim. But for now i am essentially edged on believing all claims to at least an extent. Reasons to follow.

So, here we have DatSwan stating the "believe all claims" at least to an extent.  Scum knows more than town, generally knows when town is telling the truth.  Sometimes they ignore the truths town states, but at other times they accept and "believe all claims" because they know town is telling the truth, and then after flips, etc., they will be proven "correct" and therefore townie.

Datswan doubles down on this later:

OK so I have just been playing catchup (sorry) work has been a nightmare. I keep reading up and then realizing a ton of stuff happened while I was gone and then reading again... and etc etc. So I am just gonna post major points here and get to deets later. First off:

alright then

I am Queter, a Radch-Aligned Shy Bugged Compulsive Visitor. I have to visit someone every night. If I don't get targeted by anyone and my Visit will be successful, I will become Self-Aligned with powers and win condition yet unknown. Bugged part of my role is that if investigated I will return Human or AI result with 50% probability for each. N1 I targeted Haddock and nothing happened.

LL, can you help me understand this better? You visited Haddock, but your visit was not successful since you did not become Self-aligned? (Is targeted the same as visited?)

Well, I targeted Haddock. I have no idea if I was visiting him in the end (I might've been roleblocked or I might've been visited). Or maybe Haddovck commuted or was rolestopped. I have no idea, but I did not have a choice to change alignment, basically I didn't get any response

- I do not think this comes as skum. It could come off as a Survivor claim, but it could also come off as a SK claim or skum claim. I think on the spot like LL was, they would of taken a different route as skum in regards to the content of their claim.

- Additionally I know what my role is, and there is a specific part of it that by no means "clears" LL here... but also pushes me in the direction of believing them.

Those two points can basically read: I am scum, I know LaLight isn't, possible SK, possible survivor, but not scum.

Then DatSwan changes the topic of conversation in this post (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=19374.msg784461#msg784461) to Ash, hypercube, myself, and mcmc.  And then jumps on a very opportunistic Awaclus wagon.

All the scum feels, none of the townie feels.

The redirection made me think that DatSwan and LaLight could potentially be partners, and I was tempted to switch back to LaLight and lynch them first, if they flip scum move on to DatSwan.  But I think I like my theories about scum!Swan knowing information and white knighting LaLight makes more sense.
It is very difficult to argue with this case.  I think I would struggle to vote outside of LL and Swan at this point.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Haddock on January 27, 2019, 10:48:41 am
So in the process of trying to write this post I think I've convinced myself that Awaclus is probably scum. I know this contradicts what I just stated, but I've had a bit of a breakthrough.

Scenario 1: LL is scum. Awaclus is also scum and is trying to forestall LLs lynch one night. Maybe to give LL a chance to use a 1-shot power? Maybe in the hopes that night 2 will give info that will allow her to push an alternate lynch. This is the scenario I've been leaning towards.

Scenario 2:  Awaclus is town, does not know LL's alignment, and honestly believes the fuzzy logic she's been expounding about LL's lynch not being informative.

Scenario 3: LL is town. Awaclus is scum, and knows LL is town, and wants to get town points for looking like she's trying to stop a town lynch.

Having laid this out, scenario two feels like far and away the least likely to me. Awaclus's behavior looks scummy to me regardless of LL's alignment.

I still really want to lynch LL.

But.

This is good too.

vote: Awaclus
I don't know your history with f.ds mafia, Glooble.  Get the impression you've played a bunch before I turned up? 
In any case, I'm not  sure how much you've played with Awaclus before. 

But I would say 2 actually isn't that unlikely.  Awaclus is a good logician, but he often comes from a totally different direction to things than most people, arguing from his own unique premises.  Even and/or especially when he's town.  So what looks like fuzzy logic is often sound logic, just derived from different postulates.  And presented abrasively.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Awaclus on January 27, 2019, 11:04:35 am
Scenario 1: LL is scum. Awaclus is also scum and is trying to forestall LLs lynch one night. Maybe to give LL a chance to use a 1-shot power? Maybe in the hopes that night 2 will give info that will allow her to push an alternate lynch. This is the scenario I've been leaning towards.

And out myself as scum?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on January 27, 2019, 11:21:24 am
Scenario 1: LL is scum. Awaclus is also scum and is trying to forestall LLs lynch one night. Maybe to give LL a chance to use a 1-shot power? Maybe in the hopes that night 2 will give info that will allow her to push an alternate lynch. This is the scenario I've been leaning towards.

And out myself as scum?

You obviously weren’t trying to. But sometimes things don’t work out.

I agree that LaLight’s response to her wagon has been terrible. I still have a preference for vote: LaLight and I’m happy to keep sleeping hyper, who is quasi-IC.

OMG I just had a breakthrough. LaLight is the Survivor/recruiter that tried to recruit hyper. Awaclus is some kind of bodyguard/starting recruit who has to keep LaLight alive to win. That’s why Awaclus is defending LL way more than a normal scum partner would. She has no other option!

If I’m right though, should we lynch elsewhere? Try to hit real scum?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on January 27, 2019, 11:46:04 am
Oh, that is a really interesting idea, Joth. And maybe explains some of the dynamics at play.

Yes, let’s try to find actual scum.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on January 27, 2019, 11:48:29 am
I have some to read now, so I’ll get caught up.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: hypercube on January 27, 2019, 11:48:45 am
If I’m right though, should we lynch elsewhere? Try to hit real scum?

If you're right then they should have claimed that a while ago. I guess I would at least reconsider if they both claimed that now. But I really don't think you're right.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on January 27, 2019, 11:51:23 am
If I’m right though, should we lynch elsewhere? Try to hit real scum?

If you're right then they should have claimed that a while ago. I guess I would at least reconsider if they both claimed that now. But I really don't think you're right.

If there’s a night faction that needs them to die, they’re toast if they claim.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: hypercube on January 27, 2019, 11:55:41 am
If I’m right though, should we lynch elsewhere? Try to hit real scum?

If you're right then they should have claimed that a while ago. I guess I would at least reconsider if they both claimed that now. But I really don't think you're right.

If there’s a night faction that needs them to die, they’re toast if they claim.

No NK last night points to town having some sort of protective role. Town is probably inclined to help them to prevent a double-NK or worse, since we know what their wincon is.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: hypercube on January 27, 2019, 11:59:18 am
I'm not really willing to entertain this idea further without a claim other than to say that if they're both cult-aligned they need to start scumhunting like yesterday.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Glooble on January 27, 2019, 11:59:52 am
request vote count

If joth's theory is true, the best plan is to lynch DatSwan.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: faust on January 27, 2019, 12:02:56 pm
Vote Count 2.6

jotheonah (1): mail-mi
LaLight (3): Haddock, hypercube, jotheonah
2.71828..... (1): LaLight
DatSwan (2): Awaclus, 2.71828.....
Awaclus (2): DatSwan, Glooble

Not Voting (4): SpaceAnemone, WestCoastDidds, Robz888, ashersky

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch. Day 2 ends on January 29, 2019, 01:00:00 am. That is in 37 hours.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: 2.71828..... on January 27, 2019, 12:03:31 pm
I think joth's theory is townie (as in, jotheonah is townie), but I don't think that he is correct
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on January 27, 2019, 12:25:16 pm
A reminder: the default deadline lynch is based on “fewest votes required to lynch”, which means I’m currently tied with LaLight and would likely die if the day ended now.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Glooble on January 27, 2019, 12:28:57 pm
A reminder: the default deadline lynch is based on “fewest votes required to lynch”, which means I’m currently tied with LaLight and would likely die if the day ended now.

Ok, good point.

vote: LaLight
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Glooble on January 27, 2019, 12:43:05 pm
Wait are you double hated? There’s only one vote on you.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on January 27, 2019, 12:45:14 pm
Oh wait you’re right. I guess I mixed up ash’s hated with mine. Phew.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Glooble on January 27, 2019, 12:51:41 pm
Well, honestly my two strongest townreads are skeptical about the Awaclus lynch, which seems like reason enough for me to switch back to LaLight. For now.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on January 27, 2019, 01:04:58 pm
So in the process of trying to write this post I think I've convinced myself that Awaclus is probably scum. I know this contradicts what I just stated, but I've had a bit of a breakthrough.

Scenario 1: LL is scum. Awaclus is also scum and is trying to forestall LLs lynch one night. Maybe to give LL a chance to use a 1-shot power? Maybe in the hopes that night 2 will give info that will allow her to push an alternate lynch. This is the scenario I've been leaning towards.

Scenario 2:  Awaclus is town, does not know LL's alignment, and honestly believes the fuzzy logic she's been expounding about LL's lynch not being informative.

Scenario 3: LL is town. Awaclus is scum, and knows LL is town, and wants to get town points for looking like she's trying to stop a town lynch.

Having laid this out, scenario two feels like far and away the least likely to me. Awaclus's behavior looks scummy to me regardless of LL's alignment.

I still really want to lynch LL.

But.

This is good too.

vote: Awaclus

This seems like a really bad piece of logical deduction, for the following reasons:

1) You're forgetting that by far the most likely state of affairs (unless this setup is seriously twisted) is that any two people are [i[both[/i] town.
2) Awaclus also has a longish history of being quite contrarian and dogged in his application of his preferred behaviours, so even before considering the priors, I'd say that Awaclus believed the logic.
3) Your presentation of the breakdown, deliberately or otherwise, appeared to present three options and then disregard one. The most natural way to break down all the combinations of scum-or-town that a pair of players can have is into four sections.. and even then you're hampered by the fact that they're not all equally likely. I don't know how much of a logic person you are, but that looks like either sloppy work, or a deliberate twisting of facts.

Urgh.. PPE lots because I was away from the computer for a while.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Glooble on January 27, 2019, 01:12:40 pm
So in the process of trying to write this post I think I've convinced myself that Awaclus is probably scum. I know this contradicts what I just stated, but I've had a bit of a breakthrough.

Scenario 1: LL is scum. Awaclus is also scum and is trying to forestall LLs lynch one night. Maybe to give LL a chance to use a 1-shot power? Maybe in the hopes that night 2 will give info that will allow her to push an alternate lynch. This is the scenario I've been leaning towards.

Scenario 2:  Awaclus is town, does not know LL's alignment, and honestly believes the fuzzy logic she's been expounding about LL's lynch not being informative.

Scenario 3: LL is town. Awaclus is scum, and knows LL is town, and wants to get town points for looking like she's trying to stop a town lynch.

Having laid this out, scenario two feels like far and away the least likely to me. Awaclus's behavior looks scummy to me regardless of LL's alignment.

I still really want to lynch LL.

But.

This is good too.

vote: Awaclus

This seems like a really bad piece of logical deduction, for the following reasons:

1) You're forgetting that by far the most likely state of affairs (unless this setup is seriously twisted) is that any two people are [i[both[/i] town.
2) Awaclus also has a longish history of being quite contrarian and dogged in his application of his preferred behaviours, so even before considering the priors, I'd say that Awaclus believed the logic.
3) Your presentation of the breakdown, deliberately or otherwise, appeared to present three options and then disregard one. The most natural way to break down all the combinations of scum-or-town that a pair of players can have is into four sections.. and even then you're hampered by the fact that they're not all equally likely. I don't know how much of a logic person you are, but that looks like either sloppy work, or a deliberate twisting of facts.

Urgh.. PPE lots because I was away from the computer for a while.

If Awaclus is town, He doesn’t know LL’s alignment. So if all I’m analyzing is Awaclus’s behavior , “Awaclus is town and LL is scum” and “Awaclus is town and LL is town” are functionally identically. So why not lump them together?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Haddock on January 27, 2019, 01:14:18 pm
Sorry space, but not sure I agree with you there.

Typically it would be natural to break into 4 but this situation is far from typical in that LL is really quite lynchable even if she is town.

Hence it makes sense to present both of the two town!awaclus scenarios together in one block.

Even more so when you consider that awaclus being town would mean awaclus doesn't know LL's alignment and therefore analysing awaclus's behaviour is much more difficult.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Haddock on January 27, 2019, 01:14:51 pm
PPE wow Glooble samebrain.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on January 27, 2019, 01:17:51 pm
LaLight is the Survivor/recruiter that tried to recruit hyper. Awaclus is some kind of bodyguard/starting recruit who has to keep LaLight alive to win. That’s why Awaclus is defending LL way more than a normal scum partner would. She has no other option!

How does this work? Is there only one third-faction Anaander group, or more than one? If there's more than one, do they all start with two players, and/or are they all allowed to convert multiple people per day? If not, then Awa being on LL's team, with LL as the leader, makes little sense, because when would Awa have been converted? And why would LL have chosen Awa, who multiple people have said they find quite abrasive and aren't generally sorry to lynch? If there's only one third-faction Anaander group, is the main scum group also Anaander? If so, how are you sure that you can distinguish between LL being part of the third-faction and the regular-mafia versions?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on January 27, 2019, 01:22:14 pm
If Awaclus is town, He doesn’t know LL’s alignment. So if all I’m analyzing is Awaclus’s behavior , “Awaclus is town and LL is scum” and “Awaclus is town and LL is town” are functionally identically. So why not lump them together?

Because Awaclus being town, in normal mafia at least, is way more likely than Awaclus being scum. Let's say people have a 1/4 chance of being scum, and a 3/4 chance of being town. Then your "Scenario 1" has a prior weight of 1/16, your "Scenario 3" has a weight of 3/16, and the little scenario in the middle, which you casually discard, is where 3/4 of the prior probability sits. At least if you break it down into scenarios 2a and 2b, with 3/16 and 9/16 respectively, other people who have a similar cognitive bias get to see that actually there are more options that each deserve individual consideration.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on January 27, 2019, 01:27:55 pm
Sorry space, but not sure I agree with you there.

Typically it would be natural to break into 4 but this situation is far from typical in that LL is really quite lynchable even if she is town.

Hence it makes sense to present both of the two town!awaclus scenarios together in one block.

Even more so when you consider that awaclus being town would mean awaclus doesn't know LL's alignment and therefore analysing awaclus's behaviour is much more difficult.

It's the style of doing it I don't like. Glooble "hides" like 75% of the probability mass as if it's just one option of many, then somehow states that that's unlikely and entirely focuses the argument onto the less likely stuff. People in general see a list of options and aren't very good at thinking about how likely each one is.

If you want a fair criticism of me, though, you can complain that I'm only talking about priors, here, and we ought to be talking about posterior probabilities having observed LL and Awa's behaviour. However, I still think that unless there's a huge weight of evidence that Awa himself is scum then the case Glooble presents doesn't have nearly the weight he implies.

Remember also that he was presenting a case that was backing up a vote on Awaclus, in particular that he was asserting that his case was good enough to find Awaclus scummier than LL, considering the behaviour exhibited by both of them.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Glooble on January 27, 2019, 01:33:22 pm
I wasn’t really thinking about probability. I was just thinking about what scenarios would explain Awaclus’s behavior, and then considering which one made the most sense to me. And when I did this I found the scenarios where Awaclus was scum both seemed to ring true for me in a way that that scenarios where Awaclus was town did not.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on January 27, 2019, 01:49:10 pm
LaLight is the Survivor/recruiter that tried to recruit hyper. Awaclus is some kind of bodyguard/starting recruit who has to keep LaLight alive to win. That’s why Awaclus is defending LL way more than a normal scum partner would. She has no other option!

How does this work? Is there only one third-faction Anaander group, or more than one? If there's more than one, do they all start with two players, and/or are they all allowed to convert multiple people per day? If not, then Awa being on LL's team, with LL as the leader, makes little sense, because when would Awa have been converted? And why would LL have chosen Awa, who multiple people have said they find quite abrasive and aren't generally sorry to lynch? If there's only one third-faction Anaander group, is the main scum group also Anaander? If so, how are you sure that you can distinguish between LL being part of the third-faction and the regular-mafia versions?

My implicit assumption is that because Aanander who tried to recruit hyper is both recruiter AND survivor, she would start out with one “recruit” to help keep her alive.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on January 27, 2019, 01:52:55 pm
Re: Glooble— I’m inclined to err on the side of careless analysis, but there is a slightly scummy ring to the way Glooble changes her votes around. I know I’ve said before that votes without explanation are scummy, but votes with too much information can come off as overcompensating for the former and therefore also scummy.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Haddock on January 27, 2019, 02:01:29 pm
I don't find discussion of absolute probabilities at all helpful.

The absolute probability of any one person being scum is of course lowish, everyone knows that.
I think it's legitimate to talk about likelihoods relative to the baseline, and say someone has a high/low probability of being scum with the implicit caveat that you mean relative to the standard baselines.

That said, I've already pointed out that I disagree with Glooble's points re. Awaclus.
I just don't find it to be nearly as misleading as you seem to, space.  So no i dont get scumvibes from that Glooble post.

I'm much more inclined to see space's insistence on discussion of absolute probabilities scummy.
It ignores the fact that this is simply not how people usually communicate. Maybe you feel it should be, but that doesn't give you free reign to accuse others of being misleading; they are only communicating as comes most naturally to them.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Glooble on January 27, 2019, 02:05:02 pm
Re: Glooble— I’m inclined to err on the side of careless analysis, but there is a slightly scummy ring to the way Glooble changes her votes around. I know I’ve said before that votes without explanation are scummy, but votes with too much information can come off as overcompensating for the former and therefore also scummy.

Switching my votes around? What are you talking about? I’ve voted for 2 people this whole day?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on January 27, 2019, 02:14:25 pm
Re: Glooble— I’m inclined to err on the side of careless analysis, but there is a slightly scummy ring to the way Glooble changes her votes around. I know I’ve said before that votes without explanation are scummy, but votes with too much information can come off as overcompensating for the former and therefore also scummy.

Switching my votes around? What are you talking about? I’ve voted for 2 people this whole day?

Right.  But every time you DO switch you do it in a ponderous way that i find a smidge scummy for the reasons described above.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on January 27, 2019, 02:30:10 pm
I think it's legitimate to talk about likelihoods relative to the baseline, and say someone has a high/low probability of being scum with the implicit caveat that you mean relative to the standard baselines.

Yes, the baseline is exactly what I was talking about when I used the word "prior". It gets used enough if mafia games that I'm pretty sure even people on the "wordsy" end of the player spectrum understand what it means.

I also pointed out that it would be a fair criticism of my responses to Glooble if you wanted to look at the fact that I was looking only at the "baselines"and not at the overall picture:

If you want a fair criticism of me, though, you can complain that I'm only talking about priors


I'm much more inclined to see space's insistence on discussion of absolute probabilities scummy.
It ignores the fact that this is simply not how people usually communicate. Maybe you feel it should be, but that doesn't give you free reign to accuse others of being misleading; they are only communicating as comes most naturally to them.

In fact, I deliberately said I'm not sure whether Glooble falls into the "mathsy" camp or not:

I don't know how much of a logic person you are, but that looks like either sloppy work, or a deliberate twisting of facts.

which means I don't know if I should be expecting him to think rationally. If that post came from a logical player like silverspawn or faust, I would immediately smell a rat because it looks carefully-crafted to make everyone focus on the less likely stuff while dismissing almost all of the other options that don't fit hist case argument with the barest mention, even though they could be a lot more likely on the whole. Based on the fact that Glooble has now said he just wasn't thinking about probability (while making a probability-based "what's more likely" kind of an argument), I'm happy to concede that he really doesn't seem to be a Bayesian.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on January 27, 2019, 02:40:44 pm
As an exercise, Haddock, if you started with a set of scenarios like Glooble posted, how would you proceed with you reasoning? I know that you went straight to picking up on exactly the point I did, which was that he was glossing over what seemed by far to be the most likely option. You went for it because of how it misrepresented Awaclus's logic, and I went for it because it underrepresented the likelihood of most players being townie to begin with, but we both obviously disagreed with the case.

Rather than throwing shade for my attempts to articulate why Glooble's case was wrong, why not try scrutinising Glooble's decision to vote Awaclus over LL in the first place, given that he'd explicitly stated that he thought LL was scummy, then moved to Awa because of this case that evidently convinced him so unexpectedly, and then switched back to LL again apparently just because of the plurality lynch that's still 30+ hours out.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Glooble on January 27, 2019, 02:47:16 pm

Rather than throwing shade for my attempts to articulate why Glooble's case was wrong, why not try scrutinising Glooble's decision to vote Awaclus over LL in the first place, given that he'd explicitly stated that he thought LL was scummy, then moved to Awa because of this case that evidently convinced him so unexpectedly, and then switched back to LL again apparently just because of the plurality lynch that's still 30+ hours out.

I'm honestly happy with either of them. But I think my logic is pretty consistent and I outline my thought process as I go along.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on January 27, 2019, 03:39:24 pm
Whelp, I like the idea of finding scum better than LL. But I don’t think Awaclus is it, and there doesn’t seem to be any sort of critical mass elsewhere.

It seems that. Robz is still getting a pass, but I really don’t think that should last much longer.

DatSwan is late to the game and kind of all over, but not super scummy yo me.

I still have some apprehension about the Ashersky/e combo.

Haddock, Space, Joth, and Glooble are all being helpful. Mail-mi less so.

What about mail-mi? Super present, then not once we shifted to talking g about LL and Awaclus...
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on January 27, 2019, 03:44:05 pm
Whelp, I like the idea of finding scum better than LL. But I don’t think Awaclus is it, and there doesn’t seem to be any sort of critical mass elsewhere.

It seems that. Robz is still getting a pass, but I really don’t think that should last much longer.

DatSwan is late to the game and kind of all over, but not super scummy yo me.

I still have some apprehension about the Ashersky/e combo.

Haddock, Space, Joth, and Glooble are all being helpful. Mail-mi less so.

What about mail-mi? Super present, then not once we shifted to talking g about LL and Awaclus...

Would lynch.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on January 27, 2019, 03:52:56 pm
Good gravy...sorry about all the typos.

Vote: mail-mi
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: mail-mi on January 27, 2019, 04:04:17 pm
Whelp, I like the idea of finding scum better than LL. But I don’t think Awaclus is it, and there doesn’t seem to be any sort of critical mass elsewhere.

It seems that. Robz is still getting a pass, but I really don’t think that should last much longer.

DatSwan is late to the game and kind of all over, but not super scummy yo me.

I still have some apprehension about the Ashersky/e combo.

Haddock, Space, Joth, and Glooble are all being helpful. Mail-mi less so.

What about mail-mi? Super present, then not once we shifted to talking g about LL and Awaclus...

mail-mi has been suddenly busy with college. I was planning on getting on later today and doing some rereading and posting some thoughts.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on January 27, 2019, 04:08:24 pm
Cool...I’m looking forward to your insight.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Haddock on January 27, 2019, 04:24:11 pm
I think it's legitimate to talk about likelihoods relative to the baseline, and say someone has a high/low probability of being scum with the implicit caveat that you mean relative to the standard baselines.

Yes, the baseline is exactly what I was talking about when I used the word "prior". It gets used enough if mafia games that I'm pretty sure even people on the "wordsy" end of the player spectrum understand what it means.
I can't remember anyone other than you using the word prior in a mafia game on this forum.

Moreover: although it would not be unreasonable for me to describe myself as a professional mathematician, I nevertheless don't know what you mean by "prior" in this context.
(Well I sort of do now, but didn't before.)



I'm much more inclined to see space's insistence on discussion of absolute probabilities scummy.
It ignores the fact that this is simply not how people usually communicate. Maybe you feel it should be, but that doesn't give you free reign to accuse others of being misleading; they are only communicating as comes most naturally to them.

In fact, I deliberately said I'm not sure whether Glooble falls into the "mathsy" camp or not:

I don't know how much of a logic person you are, but that looks like either sloppy work, or a deliberate twisting of facts.

which means I don't know if I should be expecting him to think rationally.

This is exactly my point.  People can think rationally and discuss rationally and generally be rational people without needing to present their every thought in the context of Bayesian statistics and probability.  Indeed I'd say it helps the discussions to avoid couching everything in the probabilities, since the probability that someone is scum is always so small that if you just follow the probability you'll never make a decision.


The rest of this quote
If that post came from a logical player like silverspawn or faust, I would immediately smell a rat because it looks carefully-crafted to make everyone focus on the less likely stuff while dismissing almost all of the other options that don't fit hist case argument with the barest mention, even though they could be a lot more likely on the whole. Based on the fact that Glooble has now said he just wasn't thinking about probability (while making a probability-based "what's more likely" kind of an argument), I'm happy to concede that he really doesn't seem to be a Bayesian.
heavily implies that Glooble is somehow an illogical person because he didn't use Bayesian arguments.    And throwing doubt onto someone's ability to analyse correctly (for not-very-good reasons) is just as scummy a thing to do as throwing doubt onto their alignment (for not-very-good reasons).


As an exercise, Haddock, if you started with a set of scenarios like Glooble posted, how would you proceed with you reasoning? I know that you went straight to picking up on exactly the point I did, which was that he was glossing over what seemed by far to be the most likely option. You went for it because of how it misrepresented Awaclus's logic, and I went for it because it underrepresented the likelihood of most players being townie to begin with, but we both obviously disagreed with the case.
You've seen how I would proceed with my reasoning.  I didn't analyse the way Glooble chose to present the information because it seemed natural to me.  I analysed his claim that Awaclus's vaguely irrational-looking behaviour made him less likely to be town.  Which was a claim I disagreed with.


Rather than throwing shade for my attempts to articulate why Glooble's case was wrong,
By all means say Glooble's case was wrong.  It's your implicit (and sometimes explicit) attempt to discredit Glooble's reasoning capacities that I am throwing shade at.


why not try scrutinising Glooble's decision to vote Awaclus over LL in the first place, given that he'd explicitly stated that he thought LL was scummy, then moved to Awa because of this case that evidently convinced him so unexpectedly, and then switched back to LL again apparently just because of the plurality lynch that's still 30+ hours out.
Hmmm.  Here you have a point.  i have been getting strong towny vibes from Glooble throughout and perhaps didn't give this the scrutiny it deserved.  Though 30+ hours is not really all that long.  I agree that gives Glooble some scumpoints but I still absolutely wouldn't have him on my lynch list for today.


Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on January 27, 2019, 05:39:01 pm
I can't remember anyone other than you using the word prior in a mafia game on this forum.

Others who use the word spontaneously include silver and Calamitas. Plenty of other quote it and engage with conversations around it. And it's possible I use it more games than not, and in a consistent enough way that even people who don't really care at all will have inferred something about its meaning.

(From here down to the start of the final quote of the post is now skippable maths stuff, for anyone who's bored of me already)

Moreover: although it would not be unreasonable for me to describe myself as a professional mathematician, I nevertheless don't know what you mean by "prior" in this context.
(Well I sort of do now, but didn't before.)

It's too "applied" for most theoretical mathematicians, but it's crucially important in a lot of fields. For example, here's an article about how bad medical doctors are at interpreting statistics around whether someone actually has a disease: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-28166019

The relevance here is that it's more or less the same thing in mafia: we need to know (or estimate) the rate of scums in the game, how likely a given player is to "test positive" (get labeled as scummy) if they're scum, and how likely they are to do that as town anyway. Only with values filled in (possibly just from gut-reads or defaults) for all that information can you really build up a clear picture about who's likely to be scummy.. and even if everything is a yes-or-no test, it's still too hard for many doctors to be able to do it correctly. And we don't even get yes-or-no tests most of the time.

@Glooble, I'm sorry if my assertion of "maybe it's sloppy reasoning, maybe it's scumminess" as a criticism of you personally. I definitely don't mean that! I mean that most people aren't trained to look at things this way and human beings are bad at it innately.. definitely not a character judgement.

Hmmm.  Here you have a point.  i have been getting strong towny vibes from Glooble throughout and perhaps didn't give this the scrutiny it deserved.  Though 30+ hours is not really all that long.  I agree that gives Glooble some scumpoints but I still absolutely wouldn't have him on my lynch list for today.

Thank you for at least considering looking more at Glooble. Yes, 30+ hours isn't too long, but it didn't feel like jump-off-a-wagon-he's-so-sure-about-straight-away urgent. I'm aware I really do need to get my vote down somewhere.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on January 27, 2019, 05:43:41 pm
Sure, mail-mi is a would-lynch. I wondered where most of the scrutiny on him from D1 went, though I was voting him for much of that time anyway.

Vote: mail-mi

My main would-lynch is still LL.

I wouldn't lynch Awaclus at this point without a scummy flip from LL of a type that indicates LL was on a team with other scums.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: mail-mi on January 27, 2019, 08:53:19 pm
It turns out I probably won't have the time tonight that I had imagined I would (story of my life). I will try to at least get some content in
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on January 27, 2019, 09:27:33 pm
I'm not really willing to entertain this idea further without a claim other than to say that if they're both cult-aligned they need to start scumhunting like yesterday.

Hypercube, I figure as the dead man walking you have nothing to lose so I trust you. Can you share your sense of things up to now? What’s your best guess on scum? Or who targeted you?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Swowl on January 27, 2019, 09:29:54 pm
I don't find discussion of absolute probabilities at all helpful.

The absolute probability of any one person being scum is of course lowish, everyone knows that.
I think it's legitimate to talk about likelihoods relative to the baseline, and say someone has a high/low probability of being scum with the implicit caveat that you mean relative to the standard baselines.

That said, I've already pointed out that I disagree with Glooble's points re. Awaclus.
I just don't find it to be nearly as misleading as you seem to, space.  So no i dont get scumvibes from that Glooble post.

I'm much more inclined to see space's insistence on discussion of absolute probabilities scummy.
It ignores the fact that this is simply not how people usually communicate. Maybe you feel it should be, but that doesn't give you free reign to accuse others of being misleading; they are only communicating as comes most naturally to them.

Space talking about math is town!space squared to the tenth power.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on January 27, 2019, 09:55:28 pm
Space talking about math is town!space squared to the tenth power.

And the wordsy folks nod and say “uhm, yeah, that sounds right...” 
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: mail-mi on January 27, 2019, 09:56:19 pm
Okay, I'm not sure how much time I'll have right now. I'm going to go do a reread, but let me pencil down some pre-reread thoughts just in case I can't finish.

- wagon on me is bad, nobody should join it

- Space doing mathy things seems like both town!space and scum!space. Doesn't change my read on her. Although I didn't like her criticism of glooble's logic, as haddock pointed out. Maybe slight scum read?

- my read on joth has not changed so far

- I still think LL is telling the truth, though I'm gonna go reread her. I've been mulling over Ash's point about her retconning her claim, and I think he has a point.

um... that's pretty much what I'm thinking right now
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: mail-mi on January 27, 2019, 10:19:56 pm
starting my reread with hyper's claim. this post will collect my thoughts as I read.

I'm honestly not sure how much I like space's reply to it, though there's nothing I can pick out. Just a feeling.

Space also continues to push ash/e, which is a pretty unlikely thing to do. I think it makes her a little more townie.

not sure how I feel about WCD.

there's a lot of talk about hypercube's claim, none of which I find particularly towny or scummy. so that's unfortunate

I think haddock is pretty towny.

I also think glooble is pretty towny. Lalight is looking worse to me as I read

i am now out of time. we shall see what happens later today. Still comfortable with my vote where it is at, but I definitely can move it to lalight right now. Also currently might be willing to vote space if that ends up going anywhere. And Datswan, haven't seem much of her so far in my read, would be willing to vote
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: LaLight on January 28, 2019, 01:18:06 am
I get a hard time making a case based on someone's votes for me, actually. I think both scum and town would vote me after my claim, because claim is not exactly townie. The only person acting really weird about my claim is mail-mi. This is also self-preservation, so vote: mail-mi

One more thing: if you do not lynch me, at one point I will be able to prove the claim (unless scum targets me every night just to get my lynch through which is a waste of shots, better for us as well), either declining the offer faust gave me and possibly dying? being hated? Hopefully something that will be obvious in thread or if you won't believe me on D4 that I am still alive therefore must be scum, you can lynch me then.

How about that?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: mail-mi on January 28, 2019, 01:28:17 am
Ok because I don't want to have us scrambling for a lynch over the last few hours of the day, I'm going to claim at least part of my role now.

I am an Odd-night delayed cop. I send in requests on odd nights and get the results after even nights. I had targeted hypercube because I wanted to be sure about her, but i guess i wasn't the only person to target her last night. I was really disappointed to learn that she would die tonight.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: ashersky on January 28, 2019, 01:35:30 am
vote: LL

That mail-mi Hail Mary vote sealed it for me.

Would vote Glooble or SA if needed to get a lynch.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: mail-mi on January 28, 2019, 01:47:12 am
vote: LL

That mail-mi Hail Mary vote sealed it for me.

Would vote Glooble or SA if needed to get a lynch.

Wanna vote SA with me? LL has been scummy but I still think shes telling the truth.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: faust on January 28, 2019, 02:28:28 am
Vote Count 2.7

jotheonah (1): mail-mi
LaLight (5): Haddock, hypercube, jotheonah, Glooble, asherksy
DatSwan (2): Awaclus, 2.71828.....
Awaclus (1): DatSwan
mail-mi (3): WestCoastDidds, SpaceAnemone, LaLight

Not Voting (1): Robz888

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch. Day 2 ends on January 29, 2019, 01:00:00 am. That is in 22.5 hours.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: 2.71828..... on January 28, 2019, 02:57:16 am
Why are people voting mail-mi?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Awaclus on January 28, 2019, 04:47:23 am
More importantly, why didn't ashersky's LL vote count?

Faust, can you confirm the vote count is correct?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: ashersky on January 28, 2019, 04:50:34 am
Faust accepts nicknames, right?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: faust on January 28, 2019, 04:51:16 am
Faust, can you confirm the vote count is correct?
Sorry, missed that. Fixed now.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: LaLight on January 28, 2019, 05:09:02 am
asherksy

who's that though
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: 2.71828..... on January 28, 2019, 05:26:40 am
I can do a vote: LaLight
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: hypercube on January 28, 2019, 05:31:06 am
I'm not really willing to entertain this idea further without a claim other than to say that if they're both cult-aligned they need to start scumhunting like yesterday.

Hypercube, I figure as the dead man walking you have nothing to lose so I trust you. Can you share your sense of things up to now? What’s your best guess on scum? Or who targeted you?

Reads, ordered within each list by towny->scummy

Town bucket: {joth, Haddock, Glooble}. Feeling pretty good about these people right now.

Special dayvig division: {E, ash}. I think E has been playing pretty towny; I can't really read ash. I'm not super worried that they're scum but the fact that ash survived being lynched indicates to me that we should maintain a respectful awareness that they could be.

Null bucket: {Space, Didds, Robz}. Space and Didds seem to have been kind of staying out of the fray for most of today, Robz of course has just been absent. Not really a scummy group but there is most likely a scum in here if ash and E are town.

Scum bucket: {mail-mi, Swan, Awa, LL}. They certainly aren't all scum but this is the group of people I think have the highest probability of being such. I think the mail-mi wagon was a good idea but I'm not moving my vote there.

I'm not going to speculate on who the cult leader is any more than I already have. I hope that the information I've brought into the light leads to a nice joint win between town and cult!
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: LaLight on January 28, 2019, 05:37:20 am
ffs vote: LaLight
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: hypercube on January 28, 2019, 05:38:45 am
bye everyone! happy hunting town
 
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/82/Peat_Forest_Swamp_%2810712654875%29.jpg/1280px-Peat_Forest_Swamp_%2810712654875%29.jpg)
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: LaLight on January 28, 2019, 05:39:25 am
bye everyone! happy hunting town
 
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/82/Peat_Forest_Swamp_%2810712654875%29.jpg/1280px-Peat_Forest_Swamp_%2810712654875%29.jpg)
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: hypercube on January 28, 2019, 05:50:06 am
I didn't see mail-mi's claim before I posted those reads, that's an interesting thing to claim. Sad that she chose to cop me, I was obv!town  :P
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: hypercube on January 28, 2019, 05:51:37 am
Eh it's probably a slightly towny claim, scum wouldn't want to give up the flexibility to claim different things later although it would be an easy fakeclaim to make
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: faust on January 28, 2019, 06:14:53 am
Day 2 Final Vote Count

jotheonah (1): mail-mi
LaLight (7): Haddock, hypercube, jotheonah, Glooble, ashersky, 2.71828....., LaLight
DatSwan (1): Awaclus
Awaclus (1): DatSwan
mail-mi (2): WestCoastDidds, SpaceAnemone
Not Voting (1): Robz888

With 13 alive, it took 7 to lynch.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: faust on January 28, 2019, 06:43:07 am
Station Administrator Celar just recorded her announcement for the official channels. "We have succeeded in capturing a rogue ancillary on Athoek Station. The unit commandeered a ship that unfortunately has been destroyed. It seems to have gone mad over the destruction of its ship. The defective unit will be terminated." A shame, she thought. The songs she might have learned from that remnant of Justice of Toren! In the end, it was probably for the best to eliminate the threat.

At this point, she heard the voice of Athoek Station in her ear. "There has been an incident in the Gardens."


LaLight has been lynched! She was Breq Mianaai, the Enemies of the Radch-aligned Ninja/Strong-Willed Restricted Goon!

hypercube has died. She was Basnaaid Elming, the Radch-aligned Vanilla Townie!

Night 2 begins now and lasts until January 30, 2019, 12:43:07 am. Night actions due within 47 hours.

Thread locked!
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Night 2)
Post by: faust on January 28, 2019, 04:18:17 pm
UmbrageOfSnow replaces Robz888. Night deadlines are extended by 24 hours.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Night 2)
Post by: faust on January 30, 2019, 09:45:40 am
To clarify, night will now end January 31, 2019, 12:43:07 am. Night action deadline is 1 hour before that.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: faust on January 31, 2019, 01:00:41 am
Eminence Ifian was worried. Her daily cast of omens spelled trouble. She had hoped that life on Ahtoek Station could go back to its proper ways now that the mad ancillary had been eliminated, but yet there was uproar. For whatever reason the residents of the Undergarden took that ancillary as some kind of martryr. Ifian scoffed. Only another sign to show that they weren't really Radchaai.

"Eminence", said Station. "The System Governor requests an urgent meeting." There it was, the event foreshadowed by the omens.


DatSwan has been killed! She was Station Administrator Celar, the Radch-aligned Jailkeeper.

jotheonah takes one vote less to lynch today.


Day 3 begins!

Vote Count 3.0

Not Voting (10): SpaceAnemone, jotheonah, mail-mi, Awaclus, 2.71828....., WestCoastDidds, UmbrageOfSnow, ashersky, Haddock, Glooble

With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch. Day 3 ends on January 31, 2019, 01:00:00 am.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: Glooble on January 31, 2019, 01:27:02 am
Bold of us to assume “Radch-aligned” = the good guys, I suppose. Has a mod ever pulled this one before? Flavoring the game such that the protagonists of the source material are scum?

Of course Basnaaid was hardly a villain, so I guess it’s more nuanced than that.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Signups open!)
Post by: 2.71828..... on January 31, 2019, 01:53:45 am
Bold of us to assume “Radch-aligned” = the good guys,

Town is Radch-aligned though.....

Town is known as Radch-aligned in this game. The town win condition is as follows:
Quote
You win when all threats to the Radch have been eliminated, and there is at least one Radch-aligned player left alive, or nothing can stop this from happening.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: 2.71828..... on January 31, 2019, 01:56:15 am
Also, welcome to UmbrageOfSnow, and I am kind of glad DatSwan was the NK because I probably would have pursued lynching them today
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: mail-mi on January 31, 2019, 02:44:24 am
interesting
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: mail-mi on January 31, 2019, 02:46:16 am
So Lalight was scum, that's nice. An interesting fakeclaim for scum to make, though she had me convinced.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: mail-mi on January 31, 2019, 02:46:33 am
Also, got my result that hypercube is town  ::)
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: faust on January 31, 2019, 03:13:21 am
I forgot something in the start of Day post. This has now been added:

jotheonah takes one vote less to lynch today.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: Glooble on January 31, 2019, 06:33:13 am
faust is that one less than usual or one les than yesterday (and therefore two less than usual)?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: Awaclus on January 31, 2019, 06:48:04 am
Bold of us to assume “Radch-aligned” = the good guys, I suppose.

Vote: Glooble
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on January 31, 2019, 06:49:10 am
Hooray!! LL was scum!

Losing a jailkeeper is tough. Pour one out for Swan. And for Hyper. You will be missed. I definitely town read Swan, so I’m glad my sense of things was right, but I wasn’t expecting him to get whacked. I guess that is the nature of the NK. Le sigh...

It took me awhile to wrap my mind around Breq being a baddie, but it makes some sense. She’s the one trying to change things. Breq was the the main protagonist, so her death is a big win. Yeah us!

I’m in Omaha for work today. I won’t be around at all, but I’m flying back to warmer places tomorrow and will be more available en route. For anyone else in the band of the polar vortex, stay warm friends.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: faust on January 31, 2019, 06:59:14 am
faust is that one less than usual or one les than yesterday (and therefore two less than usual)?
One less than she would otherwise.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: jotheonah on January 31, 2019, 07:07:23 am
I have a whole thing I wrote yesterday but it’s on my computer and I’m on my phone. I’ll post it in a couple hours.

Anyway, vote: mail-mi
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: ashersky on January 31, 2019, 07:11:54 am
Bold of us to assume “Radch-aligned” = the good guys, I suppose.

Vote: Glooble

Um, yeah.  What?

vote: Glooble
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: jotheonah on January 31, 2019, 07:16:28 am
Glooble is talking about the flavor. Breq is the main good guy in the books. Faust did a funny thing with the setup.

Also Glooble STARTED the LaLight wagon, she’s super-towny right now.

Ash, you got another dayvig? If you shoot Awaclus and we lynch mail-mi I’m pretty sure we win.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: jotheonah on January 31, 2019, 07:20:35 am
Here's the thing I wrote right after the lynch:

"First off, this flip explains a lot of the weird flavor stuff. We’re the bad guys.

Enemies of the Radch are the protagonists of the book, Breq is the main character. Very funny/clever on Faust’s part. That means it’s very likely the other Aanander Miannii is town-aligned.

Strong-Willed means roleblocker/redirector powers don’t work on LaLight. Ninja means they won’t be seen by a tracker. Restricted though, idk. The only thing on Mafia Scum is post restrictions. It’s possible there were things LaLight was not allowed to say. I have a vague memory that this was an issue for Breq in the books, but maybe I’m mixing it up with “A Closed and Common Orbit” which has a similar character (an AI incognito in a human body) who can’t lie.

Second, mail-mi’s claim yesterday was super-duper scummy. I didn’t see it until after the thread lock but, jeez. I’m a cop, but the only result I’ll be able to give you tomorrow is the one you already know about. How very convenient!

I’m writing this during the night, so I’m not putting a vote down because I’ll get a lot more info when the day starts, but man that claim stunk.

Finally, welcome to the game Umbrage! Looking forward to your contributions.

Oh, and let me throw in a “Yay, we caught scum!” This flip makes Glooble look especially good unless she is committing a really masterful bus that I would not expect out of her in particular or a quasi-newbie in general. It makes Awaclus and mail-mi look bad."
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: Awaclus on January 31, 2019, 07:31:39 am
Also Glooble STARTED the LaLight wagon, she’s super-towny right now.

How do you explain the post I was quoting if Glooble is town?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: Awaclus on January 31, 2019, 07:33:18 am
Here's the thing I wrote right after the lynch

Paraphrased, I assume?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: faust on January 31, 2019, 07:35:15 am
Here's the thing I wrote right after the lynch:

This post is in violation of game rule 1.1:

Quote
1. You may not quote information (either real or fabricated) from any game-related source other than the thread you are posting in. This means no quotes from PMs and no quotes from QTs in the main thread or in another QT. Paraphrasing is acceptable. If you are unsure whether a post is legal, please ask the moderator before posting.

As a result, jotheonah takes 1 vote less to lynch for today only.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: Glooble on January 31, 2019, 07:39:57 am
Guys, I was just pointing out that normally, in a flavored game, scum is flavored as the villains of the source material and town is flavored as the heroes. As Breq is the protagonist of the books, obviously Faust flipped that. How does pointing that out make me scummy?

Also what motivation would I, as scum, have had to start the wagon on my own partner then push it for the entire day (save one brief moment when I thought it was losing traction and switched to my next biggest scumread?)

Who, by the way, is now my biggest scumread.

vote: Awaclus
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: Awaclus on January 31, 2019, 07:45:04 am
Guys, I was just pointing out that normally, in a flavored game, scum is flavored as the villains of the source material and town is flavored as the heroes. As Breq is the protagonist of the books, obviously Faust flipped that. How does pointing that out make me scummy?

If you were town, you would have noticed what your own alignment is at the start of the game, not at the start of D3. Obviously being aligned with LL would give you the same information so you probably aren't that either.

Also what motivation would I, as scum, have had to start the wagon on my own partner then push it for the entire day (save one brief moment when I thought it was losing traction and switched to my next biggest scumread?)

I didn't say you were LL's partner.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: Glooble on January 31, 2019, 07:47:36 am
My character is extremely neutral in the flavor of the books. Also, your argument would also apply if I was scum and saw I was a good guy.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: Glooble on January 31, 2019, 07:49:35 am
faust, I fail to see how joth’s Post violates that rule.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: jotheonah on January 31, 2019, 07:51:37 am
Here's the thing I wrote right after the lynch:

This post is in violation of game rule 1.1:

Quote
1. You may not quote information (either real or fabricated) from any game-related source other than the thread you are posting in. This means no quotes from PMs and no quotes from QTs in the main thread or in another QT. Paraphrasing is acceptable. If you are unsure whether a post is legal, please ask the moderator before posting.

As a result, jotheonah takes 1 vote less to lynch for today only.

Wait what? I’m not allowed to quote a notes doc on my own computer I wrote two days ago so I wouldn’t forget my thoughts??? Appeal!
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: faust on January 31, 2019, 08:01:33 am
faust, I fail to see how joth’s Post violates that rule.
It quotes from a game-related source.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: Glooble on January 31, 2019, 08:05:13 am
That’s ridiculous. I’m going to take this to pm so I don’t clog the thread or get uncivil, and I suggest anyone else who disagrees with this action do the same.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: Glooble on January 31, 2019, 08:46:35 am

If you were town, you would have noticed what your own alignment is at the start of the game, not at the start of D3. Obviously being aligned with LL would give you the same information so you probably aren't that either.



I just want to clarify because I think I was a little angry and also trying to type on a phone in 2 degree weather. This logic is crap. If I was scum, I also would have known my flavor on day one, and if it was a character aligned with Breq in the books, I would have known scum was Breq-aligned. So my just now figuring this out doesn't mean anything about my alignment.


I can flavor-claim if people want me to, but suffice it to say my character in the books is one who does not explicitly help either side of the conflict, therefor I had no way of knowing, from my own alignment, that anything was off.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: Glooble on January 31, 2019, 08:54:27 am
Also Glooble STARTED the LaLight wagon, she’s super-towny right now.

How do you explain the post I was quoting if Glooble is town?

I'm guessing he explains it by the fact the she noticed exactly the same thing at exactly the same time because there's nothing whatsoever scummy about that realization.

We should lynch Awaclus today. She' pretty clearly trying to start this wagon on me because she went hard to defend her scum partner yesterday and now doesn't have a way to weasel out of it.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: jotheonah on January 31, 2019, 09:00:03 am
You know, I was already hated. I can be double hated. It’s NBD since I’m not today’s lynch anyway. I guess I’ll know for next time to just copy and paste without saying anything.

Let’s talk about how crazy scummy mail-mi’s cop claim was.

If mail-mi is town, that claim makes no sense. He’s basically saying “kill me, scum, you have plenty of time because it takes forever for me to get results”. A real cop would have kept it to himself, especially because he wasn’t even under much pressure and had no useful results to give us.

If mail-mi is scum, then the claim is great. All the “better not lynch me” of a cop with none of the “I have to actually give a result”. The only thing wrong with it is it’s too obvious. But one thing I learned from the last game is that sometimes, scum just screws up.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: Glooble on January 31, 2019, 09:02:24 am
Yeah at this point I'm like 75% sure its Awaclus and mail-mi but I'm like 95% sure its Awaclus and someone.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: mail-mi on January 31, 2019, 09:06:22 am
I have a whole thing I wrote yesterday but it’s on my computer and I’m on my phone. I’ll post it in a couple hours.

Anyway, vote: mail-mi
I'm going to be honest, it doesn't look very good for me. And yes the cop result is convenient but I'm not going to lie to the town. What can I do to help convince you that I am town so that we don't throw this game away?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: mail-mi on January 31, 2019, 09:07:16 am
You know, I was already hated. I can be double hated. It’s NBD since I’m not today’s lynch anyway. I guess I’ll know for next time to just copy and paste without saying anything.

Let’s talk about how crazy scummy mail-mi’s cop claim was.

If mail-mi is town, that claim makes no sense. He’s basically saying “kill me, scum, you have plenty of time because it takes forever for me to get results”. A real cop would have kept it to himself, especially because he wasn’t even under much pressure and had no useful results to give us.

If mail-mi is scum, then the claim is great. All the “better not lynch me” of a cop with none of the “I have to actually give a result”. The only thing wrong with it is it’s too obvious. But one thing I learned from the last game is that sometimes, scum just screws up.

There is more to my role and that is all I will say about this right now.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: Awaclus on January 31, 2019, 09:08:44 am
I just want to clarify because I think I was a little angry and also trying to type on a phone in 2 degree weather. This logic is crap. If I was scum, I also would have known my flavor on day one, and if it was a character aligned with Breq in the books, I would have known scum was Breq-aligned. So my just now figuring this out doesn't mean anything about my alignment.

I have acknowledged that from the beginning. I'm not accusing you of being Breq-aligned, I'm accusing you of being non-town, non-Breq aligned and everything you have said in your defense has only been more evidence for that as far as I can tell.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on January 31, 2019, 09:10:05 am
I have a whole thing I wrote yesterday but it’s on my computer and I’m on my phone. I’ll post it in a couple hours.

Anyway, vote: mail-mi
I'm going to be honest, it doesn't look very good for me. And yes the cop result is convenient but I'm not going to lie to the town. What can I do to help convince you that I am town so that we don't throw this game away?

Get lynched and flip town.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: Awaclus on January 31, 2019, 09:11:12 am
I'm guessing he explains it by the fact the she noticed exactly the same thing at exactly the same time because there's nothing whatsoever scummy about that realization.

We should lynch Awaclus today. She' pretty clearly trying to start this wagon on me because she went hard to defend her scum partner yesterday and now doesn't have a way to weasel out of it.

You're pretty clearly trying to start this wagon on me because you cultistslipped today and now don't have a way to weasel out of it.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: Glooble on January 31, 2019, 09:11:38 am
I just want to clarify because I think I was a little angry and also trying to type on a phone in 2 degree weather. This logic is crap. If I was scum, I also would have known my flavor on day one, and if it was a character aligned with Breq in the books, I would have known scum was Breq-aligned. So my just now figuring this out doesn't mean anything about my alignment.

I have acknowledged that from the beginning. I'm not accusing you of being Breq-aligned, I'm accusing you of being non-town, non-Breq aligned and everything you have said in your defense has only been more evidence for that as far as I can tell.

So are you saying there are four factions in this game? That's a lot even for faust. Or are you saying hypercube was lying? Despite being town? Why the heck would he do that? Think about what you're proposing. It's nonsensical.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: Glooble on January 31, 2019, 09:12:44 am
We know for certain that the cult is town-aligned (mostly.) So even if you really think I'm part of the cult, lynching me is still a dumb idea.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: mail-mi on January 31, 2019, 09:13:10 am
I have a whole thing I wrote yesterday but it’s on my computer and I’m on my phone. I’ll post it in a couple hours.

Anyway, vote: mail-mi
I'm going to be honest, it doesn't look very good for me. And yes the cop result is convenient but I'm not going to lie to the town. What can I do to help convince you that I am town so that we don't throw this game away?

Get lynched and flip town.

well, that's what'll happen if you do so. Anything else?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Glooble on January 31, 2019, 09:15:21 am
I have a whole thing I wrote yesterday but it’s on my computer and I’m on my phone. I’ll post it in a couple hours.

Anyway, vote: mail-mi
I'm going to be honest, it doesn't look very good for me. And yes the cop result is convenient but I'm not going to lie to the town. What can I do to help convince you that I am town so that we don't throw this game away?

Get lynched and flip town.

well, that's what'll happen if you do so. Anything else?

You could vote for Awaclus.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: Awaclus on January 31, 2019, 09:20:29 am
Honestly, the case against me is super weak. I started looking for an alternative lynch at a point when LaLight's lynch was starting to look inevitable. There's no way scum would even attempt to salvage LL from my position, because that would just be uselessly drawing more attention to themselves. As a result of what I did, we got a lot more useful reactions to the entire wagon than we would have otherwise, and LaLight got lynched anyway, so the results were pro-town too.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: mail-mi on January 31, 2019, 09:24:05 am
I have a whole thing I wrote yesterday but it’s on my computer and I’m on my phone. I’ll post it in a couple hours.

Anyway, vote: mail-mi
I'm going to be honest, it doesn't look very good for me. And yes the cop result is convenient but I'm not going to lie to the town. What can I do to help convince you that I am town so that we don't throw this game away?

Get lynched and flip town.

well, that's what'll happen if you do so. Anything else?

You could vote for Awaclus.

I am considering that. I also want to do a wagon analysis, because if the team is awaclus/mail-mi, our actions yesterday were suicide. I'm not afraid to bus and neither is awaclus (from what I remember). There is probably at least 1 partner on-wagon, maybe more.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: Awaclus on January 31, 2019, 09:28:05 am
So are you saying there are four factions in this game? That's a lot even for faust. Or are you saying hypercube was lying? Despite being town? Why the heck would he do that? Think about what you're proposing. It's nonsensical.

Four factions is not unheard of for faust, and hypercube's claim is very inconclusive about how pro-town that faction is. There's probably a reason why hypercube thought that it was more pro-town for him to die than to join that alignment.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Glooble on January 31, 2019, 09:29:42 am
Honestly, the case against me is super weak. I started looking for an alternative lynch at a point when LaLight's lynch was starting to look inevitable. There's no way scum would even attempt to salvage LL from my position, because that would just be uselessly drawing more attention to themselves. As a result of what I did, we got a lot more useful reactions to the entire wagon than we would have otherwise, and LaLight got lynched anyway, so the results were pro-town too.

It wasn't inevitable though. You nearly derailed it. And given how many powers LL had, it makes sense you'd be willing to risk additional scrutiny to keep her alive another night.

And again I ask why would hypercube have lied to us? Or are you saying faust lied to hypercube? Because that would make this a bastard game.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: Glooble on January 31, 2019, 09:31:39 am
So are you saying there are four factions in this game? That's a lot even for faust. Or are you saying hypercube was lying? Despite being town? Why the heck would he do that? Think about what you're proposing. It's nonsensical.

Four factions is not unheard of for faust, and hypercube's claim is very inconclusive about how pro-town that faction is. There's probably a reason why hypercube thought that it was more pro-town for him to die than to join that alignment.

You're mischaracterizing hypercube. She thought that she, personally, had a better chance of winning if she died than if she joined the cult. Not the same assaying it was more pro-town for her to die than to join that alignment. Not the same thing at all.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Awaclus on January 31, 2019, 09:39:37 am
Honestly, the case against me is super weak. I started looking for an alternative lynch at a point when LaLight's lynch was starting to look inevitable. There's no way scum would even attempt to salvage LL from my position, because that would just be uselessly drawing more attention to themselves. As a result of what I did, we got a lot more useful reactions to the entire wagon than we would have otherwise, and LaLight got lynched anyway, so the results were pro-town too.

It wasn't inevitable though. You nearly derailed it. And given how many powers LL had, it makes sense you'd be willing to risk additional scrutiny to keep her alive another night.

It was inevitable, and it's such obvious Bravo Sierra to claim that I nearly derailed it, when I convinced exactly 0 people to leave the wagon and contributed exactly 0 votes to other leading wagons. What did happen though is that you and joth were looking to switch from LL to me at some point (you even actually did it) and mail-mi, who was never on the wagon in the first place, started defending LL after I was doing it, all of which was much scummier than what I did.

And again I ask why would hypercube have lied to us? Or are you saying faust lied to hypercube? Because that would make this a bastard game.

What did hypercube claim that confirms that your alignment is strictly pro-town?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Glooble on January 31, 2019, 09:47:10 am
I don't want to derail anything, but at the same time I don't see any reason to delay this, so I'm going to claim now. I don't think this should really impact how we play out the rest of the Day anyways.

I have been targeted for an alignment change. I have decided not to accept this change, and consequently I will die at the end of the Day. I have made this decision since I am a VT, and I think that publicizing this information and dying gives me a better chance of winning than does changing my alignment.

The alignment change would transfer me to a faction which is not considered an enemy of the Radch. The win condition of this faction is for all enemies of the Radch to be eliminated, and for a certain player (whose identity I do not know) to survive. This unknown player must be the only surviving Anaander Mianaai for this faction to win. I do not know if joining the faction would make me an Anaander Mianaai, or whether multiple Anaander Mianaai of different factions currently exist.

a faction which is not considered an enemy of the Radch


There it is. Right there.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: mail-mi on January 31, 2019, 09:49:07 am
I don't want to derail anything, but at the same time I don't see any reason to delay this, so I'm going to claim now. I don't think this should really impact how we play out the rest of the Day anyways.

I have been targeted for an alignment change. I have decided not to accept this change, and consequently I will die at the end of the Day. I have made this decision since I am a VT, and I think that publicizing this information and dying gives me a better chance of winning than does changing my alignment.

The alignment change would transfer me to a faction which is not considered an enemy of the Radch. The win condition of this faction is for all enemies of the Radch to be eliminated, and for a certain player (whose identity I do not know) to survive. This unknown player must be the only surviving Anaander Mianaai for this faction to win. I do not know if joining the faction would make me an Anaander Mianaai, or whether multiple Anaander Mianaai of different factions currently exist.

a faction which is not considered an enemy of the Radch


There it is. Right there.

Are you claiming that you targeted hypercube? I'm confused.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Glooble on January 31, 2019, 09:55:01 am
I don't want to derail anything, but at the same time I don't see any reason to delay this, so I'm going to claim now. I don't think this should really impact how we play out the rest of the Day anyways.

I have been targeted for an alignment change. I have decided not to accept this change, and consequently I will die at the end of the Day. I have made this decision since I am a VT, and I think that publicizing this information and dying gives me a better chance of winning than does changing my alignment.

The alignment change would transfer me to a faction which is not considered an enemy of the Radch. The win condition of this faction is for all enemies of the Radch to be eliminated, and for a certain player (whose identity I do not know) to survive. This unknown player must be the only surviving Anaander Mianaai for this faction to win. I do not know if joining the faction would make me an Anaander Mianaai, or whether multiple Anaander Mianaai of different factions currently exist.

a faction which is not considered an enemy of the Radch


There it is. Right there.

Are you claiming that you targeted hypercube? I'm confused.

No, I was answering Awaclus's question:


What did hypercube claim that confirms that your alignment is strictly pro-town?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: jotheonah on January 31, 2019, 09:55:22 am
Honestly, the case against me is super weak. I started looking for an alternative lynch at a point when LaLight's lynch was starting to look inevitable. There's no way scum would even attempt to salvage LL from my position, because that would just be uselessly drawing more attention to themselves. As a result of what I did, we got a lot more useful reactions to the entire wagon than we would have otherwise, and LaLight got lynched anyway, so the results were pro-town too.

Ok. Tell me about all these useful reactions, guy who is deadset on voting for the person who started the wagon on scum.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: Glooble on January 31, 2019, 09:56:02 am
Also that's not my alignment, my alignment is actually town. But this confirms that the cult is pro-town, so even if I was part of the cult, lynching me would be a dumb move.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: mail-mi on January 31, 2019, 09:57:13 am
I don't want to derail anything, but at the same time I don't see any reason to delay this, so I'm going to claim now. I don't think this should really impact how we play out the rest of the Day anyways.

I have been targeted for an alignment change. I have decided not to accept this change, and consequently I will die at the end of the Day. I have made this decision since I am a VT, and I think that publicizing this information and dying gives me a better chance of winning than does changing my alignment.

The alignment change would transfer me to a faction which is not considered an enemy of the Radch. The win condition of this faction is for all enemies of the Radch to be eliminated, and for a certain player (whose identity I do not know) to survive. This unknown player must be the only surviving Anaander Mianaai for this faction to win. I do not know if joining the faction would make me an Anaander Mianaai, or whether multiple Anaander Mianaai of different factions currently exist.

a faction which is not considered an enemy of the Radch


There it is. Right there.

Are you claiming that you targeted hypercube? I'm confused.

No, I was answering Awaclus's question:


What did hypercube claim that confirms that your alignment is strictly pro-town?

So... how does the fact that "the cult leader isnt an enemy of the radch" prove that you're town, other than you claiming to be the cult leader? Let it be known that I think you're town, but this is kinda strange
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: jotheonah on January 31, 2019, 09:58:26 am
Honestly, the case against me is super weak. I started looking for an alternative lynch at a point when LaLight's lynch was starting to look inevitable. There's no way scum would even attempt to salvage LL from my position, because that would just be uselessly drawing more attention to themselves. As a result of what I did, we got a lot more useful reactions to the entire wagon than we would have otherwise, and LaLight got lynched anyway, so the results were pro-town too.

This response is extremely predictable. Here's the thing. Sometimes scum screws up. Sometimes they go all in on a thing and it doesn't work out.

At least afterward they can always say "Scum would never [defend/bus] that hard!"
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: ashersky on January 31, 2019, 10:02:25 am
Bold of us to assume “Radch-aligned” = the good guys, I suppose.

Vote: Glooble

I’m confused still. The quote makes it seem like you didn’t know/realize that the words “Radch-aligned” = town.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Awaclus on January 31, 2019, 10:03:52 am
a faction which is not considered an enemy of the Radch


There it is. Right there.

In other words, it is not considered to be LL's partners (Enemies of the Radch -aligned). It is not confirmed to be pro-town in any way.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: mail-mi on January 31, 2019, 10:04:47 am
Bold of us to assume “Radch-aligned” = the good guys, I suppose.

Vote: Glooble

I’m confused still. The quote makes it seem like you didn’t know/realize that the words “Radch-aligned” = town.

He's talking about the flavor. We all assumed (or at least those that know the flavor assumed) that protagonists of the book = town, but because of the flip we know differently.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: Awaclus on January 31, 2019, 10:06:06 am
Honestly, the case against me is super weak. I started looking for an alternative lynch at a point when LaLight's lynch was starting to look inevitable. There's no way scum would even attempt to salvage LL from my position, because that would just be uselessly drawing more attention to themselves. As a result of what I did, we got a lot more useful reactions to the entire wagon than we would have otherwise, and LaLight got lynched anyway, so the results were pro-town too.

Ok. Tell me about all these useful reactions, guy who is deadset on voting for the person who started the wagon on scum.

Here's one:

If I’m right though, should we lynch elsewhere? Try to hit real scum?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Glooble on January 31, 2019, 10:06:49 am
I don't want to derail anything, but at the same time I don't see any reason to delay this, so I'm going to claim now. I don't think this should really impact how we play out the rest of the Day anyways.

I have been targeted for an alignment change. I have decided not to accept this change, and consequently I will die at the end of the Day. I have made this decision since I am a VT, and I think that publicizing this information and dying gives me a better chance of winning than does changing my alignment.

The alignment change would transfer me to a faction which is not considered an enemy of the Radch. The win condition of this faction is for all enemies of the Radch to be eliminated, and for a certain player (whose identity I do not know) to survive. This unknown player must be the only surviving Anaander Mianaai for this faction to win. I do not know if joining the faction would make me an Anaander Mianaai, or whether multiple Anaander Mianaai of different factions currently exist.

a faction which is not considered an enemy of the Radch


There it is. Right there.

Are you claiming that you targeted hypercube? I'm confused.

No, I was answering Awaclus's question:


What did hypercube claim that confirms that your alignment is strictly pro-town?

So... how does the fact that "the cult leader isnt an enemy of the radch" prove that you're town, other than you claiming to be the cult leader? Let it be known that I think you're town, but this is kinda strange


If I'm not town (I am, but this is a thought experiment) there are 3 options:


1. I'm part of the cult. If true, I have no reason to lie about it since the cult is basically town-aligned. Also, it doesn't matter.


2. I'm part of LaLight's faction, and I'm a brilliant mastermind who decided to bus her partner when there was no wagon on her and very little suspicion on her. jk, that wouldn't make me a brilliant mastermind, that would make me an idiot


3. There's another scum faction which we've hitherto heard nothing about. If this is the case, why have we had at most one kill per night? Is it a scum faction with no night kill?


PPE: The town wins when all enemies of the radch have been eliminated. Ergo, we don't have to eliminate the cult to win. And they want to help us eliminate the enemies of the radch. So why fight them?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: mail-mi on January 31, 2019, 10:09:01 am
Ah, I see, it was a hypothetical. Gotcha.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: Awaclus on January 31, 2019, 10:09:12 am
He's talking about the flavor. We all assumed (or at least those that know the flavor assumed) that protagonists of the book = town, but because of the flip we know differently.

I don't know anything about the flavor, but I have known since receiving my role PM that Radch-aligned = town, not because of the flip.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: mail-mi on January 31, 2019, 10:12:28 am
He's talking about the flavor. We all assumed (or at least those that know the flavor assumed) that protagonists of the book = town, but because of the flip we know differently.

I don't know anything about the flavor, but I have known since receiving my role PM that Radch-aligned = town, not because of the flip.

Ok. Let me see if I can explain again. What glooble was saying that (in relation to flavor):

Protagonists of the book = Enemies of the Radch = scum
Antagonists of the book = Radch = town.

He was talking about the relationship of protagonists and antagonists to alignment, not the relationship of "Radch-aligned" and "enemies of the radch aligned" to alignment.

Am I getting this right glooble?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: Glooble on January 31, 2019, 10:14:26 am
He's talking about the flavor. We all assumed (or at least those that know the flavor assumed) that protagonists of the book = town, but because of the flip we know differently.

I don't know anything about the flavor, but I have known since receiving my role PM that Radch-aligned = town, not because of the flip.

Ok. Let me see if I can explain again. What glooble was saying that (in relation to flavor):

Protagonists of the book = Enemies of the Radch = scum
Antagonists of the book = Radch = town.

He was talking about the relationship of protagonists and antagonists to alignment, not the relationship of "Radch-aligned" and "enemies of the radch aligned" to alignment.

Am I getting this right glooble?

Exactly.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: Glooble on January 31, 2019, 10:15:08 am
And if you want proof go back to the very beginning of the game when Awaclus asks me my alignment and I say I'm Radch-aligned.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Glooble on January 31, 2019, 10:15:41 am

So, WestCoast, DatSwan, hypercube, and Glooble, what's your mafia playing experience?

I played in this forum years and years ago. I stopped because I was taking it too seriously and it was stressing me out.

cool

are you scum?


I am Radch-aligned in this game.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: jotheonah on January 31, 2019, 10:16:09 am
I can't believe this is what we're spending our beginning of the day talking about.

vote: Awaclus
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: 2.71828..... on January 31, 2019, 10:18:10 am
I can't believe this is what we're spending our beginning of the day talking about.

vote: Awaclus

We can do better.

Vote: WestCoastDidds

On wagon D1, off wagon D2
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: 2.71828..... on January 31, 2019, 10:19:22 am
I get where the Awaclus vote stems from, but there are better people to lynch.

That being said, I also believe Awaclus to be town
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: 2.71828..... on January 31, 2019, 10:20:56 am
Also the Glooble votes. I get it, that was a scummy post. But consider ALL their play. Town, not scum
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: jotheonah on January 31, 2019, 10:24:25 am
Hooray!! LL was scum!

Losing a jailkeeper is tough. Pour one out for Swan. And for Hyper. You will be missed. I definitely town read Swan, so I’m glad my sense of things was right, but I wasn’t expecting him to get whacked. I guess that is the nature of the NK. Le sigh...

It took me awhile to wrap my mind around Breq being a baddie, but it makes some sense. She’s the one trying to change things. Breq was the the main protagonist, so her death is a big win. Yeah us!

I’m in Omaha for work today. I won’t be around at all, but I’m flying back to warmer places tomorrow and will be more available en route. For anyone else in the band of the polar vortex, stay warm friends.

This is a pretty scummy post, now that you mention it.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: jotheonah on January 31, 2019, 10:25:09 am
I get where the Awaclus vote stems from, but there are better people to lynch.

That being said, I also believe Awaclus to be town

What about mail-mi?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: 2.71828..... on January 31, 2019, 10:29:56 am
I get where the Awaclus vote stems from, but there are better people to lynch.

That being said, I also believe Awaclus to be town

What about mail-mi?

I think mail-mi is more town than scum at this point
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: 2.71828..... on January 31, 2019, 10:30:36 am
I get where the Awaclus vote stems from, but there are better people to lynch.

That being said, I also believe Awaclus to be town

What about mail-mi?

I think mail-mi is more town than scum at this point

If mail-mi were scum with LaLight there is absolutely no way they claim when they did and how they did
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: jotheonah on January 31, 2019, 10:32:37 am
I get where the Awaclus vote stems from, but there are better people to lynch.

That being said, I also believe Awaclus to be town

What about mail-mi?

I think mail-mi is more town than scum at this point

If mail-mi were scum with LaLight there is absolutely no way they claim when they did and how they did

I think it's dangerously easy to next level ourselves with arguments like this and ignore what's right in front of us. mail-mi has been scummy all day. He was on the wrong side of the wagon and made an extremely scummy claim.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: 2.71828..... on January 31, 2019, 10:41:48 am
I get where the Awaclus vote stems from, but there are better people to lynch.

That being said, I also believe Awaclus to be town

What about mail-mi?

I think mail-mi is more town than scum at this point

If mail-mi were scum with LaLight there is absolutely no way they claim when they did and how they did

I think it's dangerously easy to next level ourselves with arguments like this and ignore what's right in front of us. mail-mi has been scummy all day. He was on the wrong side of the wagon and made an extremely scummy claim.

I haven't really picked up a huge scum vibe from mail-mi at all.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: Glooble on January 31, 2019, 10:48:28 am
Someone please tell me why Awaclus isn't obvscum though? Her play this entire game has been belligerent, confrontational, and backed up by swiss-cheese logic. I'm really not inclined to switch my vote to anyone else without a very good case.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: 2.71828..... on January 31, 2019, 10:50:12 am
Someone please tell me why Awaclus isn't obvscum though? Her play this entire game has been belligerent, confrontational, and backed up by swiss-cheese logic. I'm really not inclined to switch my vote to anyone else without a very good case.

Belligerent - not scummy
Confrontational - not scummy, even townie
Swiss-cheese logic - not scummy
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on January 31, 2019, 11:07:59 am
Someone please tell me why Awaclus isn't obvscum though? Her play this entire game has been belligerent, confrontational, and backed up by swiss-cheese logic. I'm really not inclined to switch my vote to anyone else without a very good case.

Belligerent - not scummy
Confrontational - not scummy, even townie
Swiss-cheese logic - not scummy

All of the above -> Awaclusian

I mean, I think he might be being a small bit scummy, but he's actually hard to tell. He was scum in the RMM Haddock and I ran, and I think he was more conversational, but I also think his hard line on "this is how you have to play mafia" was a bit less extreme in those days anyway.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on January 31, 2019, 11:17:51 am
Seeing Breq's flip made me feel less worried that my flavour name isn't strongly aligned with her people/general morality in the books, and also more open to the idea that Ash's claimed flavour name is genuine and Radch-aligned.

The Radch overall is a lot like saying "civilised society" -- it has different connotations to other people. Clearly we are all "civilised", but maybe only in the way colonialists and slave traders are.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: Glooble on January 31, 2019, 12:13:26 pm
Ok, willing to consider the possibility that I just don't care for Awaclus's playstyle and maybe I'm reacting emotionally to her constant attacks on me.

It's not good to develop tunnel-vision.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: Haddock on January 31, 2019, 12:59:31 pm
Ok, willing to consider the possibility that I just don't care for Awaclus's playstyle and maybe I'm reacting emotionally to her constant attacks on me.
Congratulations young padawan you have taken the first step towards mafia wisdom :P

Also folks I moved house today and have much unpacking to do. Gonna have to catch up with yall later on tonight.

However I will say: it's obvious that Glooble was talking purely about the flavour, noting that we are radch-aligned and town, but not the "good guys" in the sense of the books, ie. We are aligned against the protagonists of the books.

This is not difficult to understand. Anyone voting Glooble for that is scummy.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: Awaclus on January 31, 2019, 01:33:53 pm
However I will say: it's obvious that Glooble was talking purely about the flavour, noting that we are radch-aligned and town, but not the "good guys" in the sense of the books, ie. We are aligned against the protagonists of the books.

This is not difficult to understand. Anyone voting Glooble for that is scummy.

It is difficult to understand. I'm not familiar with the flavor at all, and this is my best effort at trying to figure out what's going on:

1) In the book, "Radch" aren't necessarily heroes or villains
2) Therefore, getting a character from the book who isn't necessarily a hero or a villain as "Radch-aligned" isn't surprising
3) If that's what happened to Glooble, it is not strange for Glooble to assume that "Radch-aligned" (i.e. town) are the heroes from the book
4) And then if that's what Glooble assumed, it goes against that assumption when a town player flips a villain flavor name and a scum player flips a hero flavor name and this is worth pointing out in the thread
5) For some reason, Glooble assumed that everyone else also assumed that "Radch-aligned" are the heroes from the book

Is this right?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: UmbrageOfSnow on January 31, 2019, 01:35:21 pm
Hi everyone!

I promise to post more than Robz did. Read the game fast over the night, definitely need to go back to look at some stuff today.

I don't know the flavor at all, although I may try to get around to reading it when I finish the book I'm currently reading.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: UmbrageOfSnow on January 31, 2019, 01:39:18 pm
I target one player and name one player. I named LaLight, but didn't target her. However, it's possible I redirected an action pointed at someone else to LaLight. I can claim more if necessary, but I'd rather not.

Joth, could you please answer this with just a "Yes," "No," or "It's possible."

Did you redirect Robz' action on N1?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: UmbrageOfSnow on January 31, 2019, 01:44:09 pm
Joth, any interest in doing an RMM based on Long Way to a Small Angry Planet sometime?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: UmbrageOfSnow on January 31, 2019, 01:52:18 pm
Yeah at this point I'm like 75% sure its Awaclus and mail-mi but I'm like 95% sure its Awaclus and someone.

So you think both scum hard defended LaLight after he made a botched claim? And then killed off-wagon?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: UmbrageOfSnow on January 31, 2019, 01:56:54 pm

a faction which is not considered an enemy of the Radch


There it is. Right there.

LaLight has been lynched! She was Breq Mianaai, the Enemies of the Radch-aligned Ninja/Strong-Willed Restricted Goon!

Enemies of the Radch is the name of the scum faction.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: UmbrageOfSnow on January 31, 2019, 02:04:51 pm
However I will say: it's obvious that Glooble was talking purely about the flavour, noting that we are radch-aligned and town, but not the "good guys" in the sense of the books, ie. We are aligned against the protagonists of the books.

This is not difficult to understand. Anyone voting Glooble for that is scummy.

This is actually the thing that stands out to me from that whole exchange.

Like it's so implausible to see where the idea that Glooble scumslipped comes from that it must be scummy? I get what Glooble was saying, now, in retrospect, but those votes that immediately follow make sense to me too.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Glooble on January 31, 2019, 02:13:42 pm
However I will say: it's obvious that Glooble was talking purely about the flavour, noting that we are radch-aligned and town, but not the "good guys" in the sense of the books, ie. We are aligned against the protagonists of the books.

This is not difficult to understand. Anyone voting Glooble for that is scummy.

It is difficult to understand. I'm not familiar with the flavor at all, and this is my best effort at trying to figure out what's going on:

1) In the book, "Radch" aren't necessarily heroes or villains
2) Therefore, getting a character from the book who isn't necessarily a hero or a villain as "Radch-aligned" isn't surprising
3) If that's what happened to Glooble, it is not strange for Glooble to assume that "Radch-aligned" (i.e. town) are the heroes from the book
4) And then if that's what Glooble assumed, it goes against that assumption when a town player flips a villain flavor name and a scum player flips a hero flavor name and this is worth pointing out in the thread
5) For some reason, Glooble assumed that everyone else also assumed that "Radch-aligned" are the heroes from the book

Is this right?


Yes.

Yeah at this point I'm like 75% sure its Awaclus and mail-mi but I'm like 95% sure its Awaclus and someone.

So you think both scum hard defended LaLight after he made a botched claim? And then killed off-wagon?

Well when you put it that way it sounds pretty dumb.


a faction which is not considered an enemy of the Radch


There it is. Right there.

LaLight has been lynched! She was Breq Mianaai, the Enemies of the Radch-aligned Ninja/Strong-Willed Restricted Goon!

Enemies of the Radch is the name of the scum faction.


Yes, and we win when all of them are eliminated. So if cult =/= enemies of the radch, why expend any energy hunting the cult?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on January 31, 2019, 02:21:23 pm
I target one player and name one player. I named LaLight, but didn't target her. However, it's possible I redirected an action pointed at someone else to LaLight. I can claim more if necessary, but I'd rather not.

Joth, could you please answer this with just a "Yes," "No," or "It's possible."

Did you redirect Robz' action on N1?

No.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: jotheonah on January 31, 2019, 02:22:30 pm
Joth, any interest in doing an RMM based on Long Way to a Small Angry Planet sometime?

Maybe! They're good books.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: UmbrageOfSnow on January 31, 2019, 02:24:01 pm
Thanks Joth.

And yeah, I halfway tossed the idea around anyway and didn't have any bright ideas, but that could be a fun thing to work on together sometime.

Do I have more posts than Robz yet?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: UmbrageOfSnow on January 31, 2019, 02:24:54 pm
I do agree that Awaclus' cult-hunting is a waste of time.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Awaclus on January 31, 2019, 02:41:02 pm
Yes, and we win when all of them are eliminated. So if cult =/= enemies of the radch, why expend any energy hunting the cult?

Their win con sounds like it involves killing someone or some people we don't care about killing (and who might be town). The cult could turn out to be a liability later on.

But I guess I don't have a reason to vote for you even if that's true. Vote: joth
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: jotheonah on January 31, 2019, 03:33:49 pm
Ok, so. This is going to be a bit stream-of-consciousness so bear with me.

There's 10 of us left. SpaceAnemone, jotheonah, mail-mi, Awaclus, 2.71828....., WestCoastDidds, UmbrageOfSnow, ashersky, Haddock, Glooble

Of these, I am pretty much 100 percent convinced that joth, Glooble, e, and ashersky are town.

If I take seriously the suggestion that mail-mi and Awaclus, both of whom I'd very much like to lynch, are not scum because if they were they were too obvious about trying to save LaLight, then I'm looking at a pool of Space, WCD, Haddock, and Umbrage. The latter two are relatively recent replacements for lurkers so I don't have a strong read on either of them (ironically, they replaced the two players I probably have the strongest ability to read). Space and WCD, on the other hand, are both players I don't have too much trouble believing are scum, though I wouldn't say I have strong scumreads on either of them.

Hmmm. Looking at the LaLight wagon now:

Haddock, hypercube, jotheonah, Glooble, ashersky, 2.71828....., LaLight

There is only one person on that wagon who isn't either obvtown to me, confirmed town, or LaLight and that's Haddock. So if scum is doing the one-on one-off thing (which I think is a reasonable default assumption) that would bring me to suspect Haddock.

Or, of course, there is the possibility that e and ashersky are scum together and the cop claim was a gambit. We have to keep that in mind even though I think it quite unlikely for a number of reasons.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: Haddock on January 31, 2019, 04:14:34 pm
That’s ridiculous. I’m going to take this to pm so I don’t clog the thread or get uncivil, and I suggest anyone else who disagrees with this action do the same.
The whole forum have already had this argument I'm afraid.  I was very much on your side, but the voices who cared the most were on the other side, so this is a fairly standard rule now.



Also that's not my alignment, my alignment is actually town. But this confirms that the cult is pro-town, so even if I was part of the cult, lynching me would be a dumb move.
It doesn't say pro-town.  It just says not-explicitly antitown.  "not considered an enemy of the radch" is not the same as "an ally of the radch".
Hmm ok so hyper did essentially say that the cult was explicitly protown.
It annoys me that hyper never confirmed that her information was mod-confirmed.  if you see what I mean.  The information might have come in like a message from the cult or something, making it unreliable.  I dunno.  Probably not.

I can't believe this is what we're spending our beginning of the day talking about.

vote: Awaclus

We can do better.

Vote: WestCoastDidds

On wagon D1, off wagon D2
Hmm.  Hard to argue with that.  A bit obvious maybe?  Then again WCD is new.
Also worth noting:  Space was offwagon.  Here is their post and (as far as I can see) only vote of the day:

Sure, mail-mi is a would-lynch. I wondered where most of the scrutiny on him from D1 went, though I was voting him for much of that time anyway.

Vote: mail-mi

My main would-lynch is still LL.

I wouldn't lynch Awaclus at this point without a scummy flip from LL of a type that indicates LL was on a team with other scums.
I really really don't like the above.  At no point (again, that I can find) does Space vote for Lalight.  And yet says that LL is their main lynch candidate, while voting elsewhere.  What's that about?  In light of LL's flip I'd say that looks really scummy.  It gives you something to point to later and say "no but look I wanted LL lynched too" without ever actually helping the lynch.

In general actually Space has made very very few votes.  I can't remember if this is normal for them.  If it's not normal for space I'd lean towards that lack of commitment to a vote as being scummy. 

Space I'd like you to explain yourself a bit, I think.  Just, like: why the above vote, why didn't you ever vote Lalight, why the lack of votes in general, etc.


However I will say: it's obvious that Glooble was talking purely about the flavour, noting that we are radch-aligned and town, but not the "good guys" in the sense of the books, ie. We are aligned against the protagonists of the books.

This is not difficult to understand. Anyone voting Glooble for that is scummy.

It is difficult to understand. I'm not familiar with the flavor at all, and this is my best effort at trying to figure out what's going on:

1) In the book, "Radch" aren't necessarily heroes or villains
2) Therefore, getting a character from the book who isn't necessarily a hero or a villain as "Radch-aligned" isn't surprising
3) If that's what happened to Glooble, it is not strange for Glooble to assume that "Radch-aligned" (i.e. town) are the heroes from the book
4) And then if that's what Glooble assumed, it goes against that assumption when a town player flips a villain flavor name and a scum player flips a hero flavor name and this is worth pointing out in the thread
5) For some reason, Glooble assumed that everyone else also assumed that "Radch-aligned" are the heroes from the book

Is this right?
Yes, but it's not nearly as convoluted as you make it sound. 
As for 5), you sound incredulous, but yeah: in lots of mafia games, town are the protagonists of the book/flavour.

However I will say: it's obvious that Glooble was talking purely about the flavour, noting that we are radch-aligned and town, but not the "good guys" in the sense of the books, ie. We are aligned against the protagonists of the books.

This is not difficult to understand. Anyone voting Glooble for that is scummy.

This is actually the thing that stands out to me from that whole exchange.

Like it's so implausible to see where the idea that Glooble scumslipped comes from that it must be scummy? I get what Glooble was saying, now, in retrospect, but those votes that immediately follow make sense to me too.
Meh, not really.  I just couldn't bring myself to see what Glooble said any other way.  Maybe "the people who made that vote should feel bad" is a better way to say it.  But I was posting quickly on my phone and didn't have time to un-exaggerate my response.


Ok, so. This is going to be a bit stream-of-consciousness so bear with me.

There's 10 of us left. SpaceAnemone, jotheonah, mail-mi, Awaclus, 2.71828....., WestCoastDidds, UmbrageOfSnow, ashersky, Haddock, Glooble

Of these, I am pretty much 100 percent convinced that joth, Glooble, e, and ashersky are town.

If I take seriously the suggestion that mail-mi and Awaclus, both of whom I'd very much like to lynch, are not scum because if they were they were too obvious about trying to save LaLight, then I'm looking at a pool of Space, WCD, Haddock, and Umbrage. The latter two are relatively recent replacements for lurkers so I don't have a strong read on either of them (ironically, they replaced the two players I probably have the strongest ability to read). Space and WCD, on the other hand, are both players I don't have too much trouble believing are scum, though I wouldn't say I have strong scumreads on either of them.

Hmmm. Looking at the LaLight wagon now:

Haddock, hypercube, jotheonah, Glooble, ashersky, 2.71828....., LaLight

There is only one person on that wagon who isn't either obvtown to me, confirmed town, or LaLight and that's Haddock. So if scum is doing the one-on one-off thing (which I think is a reasonable default assumption) that would bring me to suspect Haddock.

Or, of course, there is the possibility that e and ashersky are scum together and the cop claim was a gambit. We have to keep that in mind even though I think it quite unlikely for a number of reasons.
Huh.  I mean.  Wrong - I'm town.  But that analysis is annoyingly easy to follow and makes sense.

The conclusion from my perspective, though, is that you (joth) are worth suspecting (you were already on my radar) or that you were right re mail-mi and/or Awaclus.  Of those three I'm more inclined to vote for you or mail-mi (probably mail-mi over you by a little way).
Awaclus has been pretty Awaclus so far - and I am not really even excluding his egregious behaviour re the Lalight lynch.  That play is still well within his nullzone.



I need to reread mail-mi.  I hadn't been getting many scumvibes, but apparently I've missed stuff; someone mentioned a cop claim?



Hmm actually as i catch up more maybe I need to reread Glooble too.  there are weird things there that I wasn't seeing before.  (Not to mention Space having brought Glooble to my attention.)
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: Haddock on January 31, 2019, 04:21:12 pm
It annoys me that hyper never confirmed that her information was mod-confirmed.  if you see what I mean.  The information might have come in like a message from the cult or something, making it unreliable.  I dunno.  Probably not.
Jeesus she actually did so on 2 separate occasions.  OK ignore my saying that, sorry.  Also sorry hyper. :P

Just found the mail-mi claim.  Had seen it earlier but not processed it cos the day was ending.  Yup.  It's a stinker...
vote: mail-mi
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: jotheonah on January 31, 2019, 04:30:18 pm
I agree with you about that Space quote looking pretty bad. I could get onboard with a Space lynch.

I am now thinking that there is probably scum amongst [Awaclus, mail-mi] but they probably aren't both scum. That feels right to me.

 
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: mail-mi on January 31, 2019, 04:31:01 pm
It annoys me that hyper never confirmed that her information was mod-confirmed.  if you see what I mean.  The information might have come in like a message from the cult or something, making it unreliable.  I dunno.  Probably not.
Jeesus she actually did so on 2 separate occasions.  OK ignore my saying that, sorry.  Also sorry hyper. :P

Just found the mail-mi claim.  Had seen it earlier but not processed it cos the day was ending.  Yup.  It's a stinker...
vote: mail-mi

honestly i cannot blame you for voting me for that. it sounds awful. I hate to use the WIFOM argument here but, really, would I be that dumb as scum? claiming cop when we already have a cop and a result on someone who's already sentenced to death? There are SO MANY better fakeclaims I could do. We weren't scrambling, we had about 24 hours left (I think) and so I had plenty of time to come up with a better fakeclaim.

Also, if I was scum, I would have seen how Lalight's not-super-townie fakeclaim was working against her, and would have come up with a more solid fakeclaim.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: mail-mi on January 31, 2019, 04:31:13 pm
I'm down for a vote: space
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: Glooble on January 31, 2019, 04:39:14 pm
It annoys me that hyper never confirmed that her information was mod-confirmed.  if you see what I mean.  The information might have come in like a message from the cult or something, making it unreliable.  I dunno.  Probably not.
Jeesus she actually did so on 2 separate occasions.  OK ignore my saying that, sorry.  Also sorry hyper. :P

Just found the mail-mi claim.  Had seen it earlier but not processed it cos the day was ending.  Yup.  It's a stinker...
vote: mail-mi

honestly i cannot blame you for voting me for that. it sounds awful. I hate to use the WIFOM argument here but, really, would I be that dumb as scum? claiming cop when we already have a cop and a result on someone who's already sentenced to death? There are SO MANY better fakeclaims I could do. We weren't scrambling, we had about 24 hours left (I think) and so I had plenty of time to come up with a better fakeclaim.

Also, if I was scum, I would have seen how Lalight's not-super-townie fakeclaim was working against her, and would have come up with a more solid fakeclaim.

So why did you claim? Why did you feel it necessary to out yourself as a cop at that exact juncture? It's not like there was a massive amount of pressure on you.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: jotheonah on January 31, 2019, 04:41:05 pm
It annoys me that hyper never confirmed that her information was mod-confirmed.  if you see what I mean.  The information might have come in like a message from the cult or something, making it unreliable.  I dunno.  Probably not.
Jeesus she actually did so on 2 separate occasions.  OK ignore my saying that, sorry.  Also sorry hyper. :P

Just found the mail-mi claim.  Had seen it earlier but not processed it cos the day was ending.  Yup.  It's a stinker...
vote: mail-mi

honestly i cannot blame you for voting me for that. it sounds awful. I hate to use the WIFOM argument here but, really, would I be that dumb as scum? claiming cop when we already have a cop and a result on someone who's already sentenced to death? There are SO MANY better fakeclaims I could do. We weren't scrambling, we had about 24 hours left (I think) and so I had plenty of time to come up with a better fakeclaim.

Also, if I was scum, I would have seen how Lalight's not-super-townie fakeclaim was working against her, and would have come up with a more solid fakeclaim.

I just got done playing a game as scum where I made a bunch of stupid mistakes and then tried to defend myself by saying that as scum I would never make those stupid mistakes. The real truth is that sometimes you're scum and you think you're under more pressure then you are. Sometimes you make a plan at night in your QT and everyone agrees it looks good but then when the time it rolls around in the real game circumstances have changed and it goes over very badly. Maybe you really did have to go and didn't think you'd be back before deadline so you thought the claim would be a good hedge against a last-minute wagon forming on you.

I just basically will never again give any wait to "scum would never be this dumb" arguments because (A) they're a whole nest of endless WIFOM and (B) sometimes scum would.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: jotheonah on January 31, 2019, 04:41:31 pm
*any weight
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: jotheonah on January 31, 2019, 04:42:50 pm
On top of that, I think those arguments are more likely to come from scum then from town, because town has to do some hypothetical work to consider what they would or wouldn't do as scum whereas it's always top of mind for scum.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: Glooble on January 31, 2019, 04:46:10 pm
The thing with the mail-mi claim is as much as it doesn't make sense for scum!mail-mi to claim that, it makes even less sense for town!mail-mi to claim that.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: Haddock on January 31, 2019, 04:47:07 pm
OK here's a thing for me to sleep on.
Is waiting to lynch mail-mi better? Like, we think scum will v much want to kill mail-mi before more results happen. Can we wait and see whether thag happens? Or is that too late by then?

Also by that argument I guess E should be dead by now.

Hmm
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: Glooble on January 31, 2019, 04:50:39 pm
OK here's a thing for me to sleep on.
Is waiting to lynch mail-mi better? Like, we think scum will v much want to kill mail-mi before more results happen. Can we wait and see whether thag happens? Or is that too late by then?

Also by that argument I guess E should be dead by now.

Hmm


E did explicitly say "1-shot cop" iirc.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: jotheonah on January 31, 2019, 05:08:07 pm
That’s ridiculous. I’m going to take this to pm so I don’t clog the thread or get uncivil, and I suggest anyone else who disagrees with this action do the same.
The whole forum have already had this argument I'm afraid.  I was very much on your side, but the voices who cared the most were on the other side, so this is a fairly standard rule now.

Could you link me to that discussion? I tried to find it on my own and failed.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: jotheonah on January 31, 2019, 05:09:36 pm
OK here's a thing for me to sleep on.
Is waiting to lynch mail-mi better? Like, we think scum will v much want to kill mail-mi before more results happen. Can we wait and see whether thag happens? Or is that too late by then?

Also by that argument I guess E should be dead by now.

Hmm

I have reason to believe mail-mi will not get a result anyway. I think they were Swan's jailkeep target. I'd be interested to know if anyone can verify though.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: jotheonah on January 31, 2019, 05:14:13 pm
Oh wait. Just realized it’s equally possible I was Swan’s Target.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on January 31, 2019, 05:34:46 pm
Hi- I’m just dropping in for a second before dinner. I’ll try to read and really respond tomorrow.

But in the event this info helps more sooner than later... I monitored DatSwan last night. His target was Ashersky.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: jotheonah on January 31, 2019, 05:39:29 pm
Huh.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: jotheonah on January 31, 2019, 05:40:19 pm
Why jailkeep a dayvig? I guess we don’t know enough about the setup to know if that would work.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: Glooble on January 31, 2019, 05:47:08 pm
Lots of soft claiming going on. Are we sure this is the time?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: UmbrageOfSnow on January 31, 2019, 05:52:55 pm
Hi- I’m just dropping in for a second before dinner. I’ll try to read and really respond tomorrow.

But in the event this info helps more sooner than later... I monitored DatSwan last night. His target was Ashersky.

So why did you decide to track DerSwan? And why did you decide to claim this before dinner?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: UmbrageOfSnow on January 31, 2019, 05:59:57 pm
Also yeah, we have 1 dead scum, ladies. If we count the cult as town that's 2 scum out of 10 players, so 2 mislynches and a no-lynch before 5 player LYLO, and that's worst case. We shouldn't claim today.

If Ash dayvigs town that's just the no-lynch and we still shouldn't claim.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: jotheonah on January 31, 2019, 06:14:47 pm
I prefer to let people make their own decisions about claiming.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on January 31, 2019, 06:38:57 pm
Joth was speculating about things that might clear mail-mi or others, and I had some specific information about Swan that might be useful for others to know. So, now we know.

Like I said before I’m super swamped with being professional and adult right now, so I don’t have the bandwidth to respond to other stuff right now, and I’m not really sure when I’ll acrually be able to contribute more fully...
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: mail-mi on January 31, 2019, 06:39:22 pm
It annoys me that hyper never confirmed that her information was mod-confirmed.  if you see what I mean.  The information might have come in like a message from the cult or something, making it unreliable.  I dunno.  Probably not.
Jeesus she actually did so on 2 separate occasions.  OK ignore my saying that, sorry.  Also sorry hyper. :P

Just found the mail-mi claim.  Had seen it earlier but not processed it cos the day was ending.  Yup.  It's a stinker...
vote: mail-mi

honestly i cannot blame you for voting me for that. it sounds awful. I hate to use the WIFOM argument here but, really, would I be that dumb as scum? claiming cop when we already have a cop and a result on someone who's already sentenced to death? There are SO MANY better fakeclaims I could do. We weren't scrambling, we had about 24 hours left (I think) and so I had plenty of time to come up with a better fakeclaim.

Also, if I was scum, I would have seen how Lalight's not-super-townie fakeclaim was working against her, and would have come up with a more solid fakeclaim.

So why did you claim? Why did you feel it necessary to out yourself as a cop at that exact juncture? It's not like there was a massive amount of pressure on you.

Because the deadline was coming up soon and there was a shift in the votes coming toward me. I was about to go to bed and be inactive for the next 8ish hours, and I know how much can happen on the forums while I'm asleep (I woke up to 3 pages at the start of day 2, I think). Also I did not full claim
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: mail-mi on January 31, 2019, 06:41:10 pm
OK here's a thing for me to sleep on.
Is waiting to lynch mail-mi better? Like, we think scum will v much want to kill mail-mi before more results happen. Can we wait and see whether thag happens? Or is that too late by then?

Also by that argument I guess E should be dead by now.

Hmm

I have reason to believe mail-mi will not get a result anyway. I think they were Swan's jailkeep target. I'd be interested to know if anyone can verify though.

I didn't cop anyone last night, I can only cop on even nights.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on January 31, 2019, 07:26:13 pm
I can't believe this is what we're spending our beginning of the day talking about.

vote: Awaclus

We can do better.

Vote: WestCoastDidds

On wagon D1, off wagon D2
Hmm.  Hard to argue with that.  A bit obvious maybe?  Then again WCD is new.

For the record, I strongly townread WCD.

Also worth noting:  Space was offwagon.

I wanted to join WCD (whom I trusted as townie) on the alternative mail-mi wagon because I couldn't feel the Swan wagon (which at that point was also at 2 votes), and I wanted to see what people did if there was an apparent going concern that wasn't LL. For me, I get WCD and myself as green-coloured names on a wagon on an unknown player. Whoever joins in 3rd/4th place is more likely not to be the same faction as mail-mi, so it gets information even while we're queueing up LL for the lynch.

I really really don't like the above.  At no point (again, that I can find) does Space vote for Lalight.  And yet says that LL is their main lynch candidate, while voting elsewhere.  What's that about?  In light of LL's flip I'd say that looks really scummy.  It gives you something to point to later and say "no but look I wanted LL lynched too" without ever actually helping the lynch.

I did want to lynch LL, but I also wanted to hunt for the other scums too with the time and resources left in D2 (before more weird night stuff and cult conversions came in to mess with my reads on people).

Wouldn't you say that it's interesting that the only other person who joined the wagon was LL herself, and even then, she eventually realised that it was too useful to town to let all that continue, and self-hammered rather than see her buddies tempted into exposing themselves on the mail-mi wagon?

I also note that you are now voting mail-mi, so you can't exactly accuse me of not having had grounds to be suspicious in the first place: mail-mi's behaviour hasn't been townie.

Space I'd like you to explain yourself a bit, I think.  Just, like: why the above vote, why didn't you ever vote Lalight, why the lack of votes in general, etc.

I mean, why vote LL at that point? Just to end the day sooner? I don't think it was particularly unreasonable for me to have assumed the day would still be going on at 9 or 10pm our time the day after I cast the mail-mi vote, even though it ended before noon (UK time). It just shows that more people agreed that LL was the correct lynch choice than could actually fit on the wagon, which is not that surprising when someone looks like they've probably scumslipped.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on January 31, 2019, 07:44:29 pm
It's also worth noting that by saying someone seems townie, right now I mean not-LL-aligned.

I'd guess another person got targeted last night for conversion to Hyper's cult, meaning everyone we thought was townie yesterday might not necessarily be purely townie today.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: UmbrageOfSnow on January 31, 2019, 08:25:18 pm
I prefer to let people make their own decisions about claiming.

Are you saying we shouldn't point out when people are starting to make sub-optimal decisions about claiming?

I mean, I'm not like breaking into your house and holding a gun to your head and telling you not to claim (that would be against the rules against communicating outside the thread) but it's a legitimately bad move if it isn't giving us something important right now.

And everyone's decisions do impact everyone else. Firstly because we know we have VTs in the setup, and secondly because some roles are going to be better than others, and scum don't need the help with who to target.

I debated asking you the question I did, decided it was worth it, but we seem to be claiming for no reason at all and this isn't good. Yet. We definitely need to full claim before LYLO.

But this is a team game, strategic decisions shouldn't be made on a whim and ignoring everyone else.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: UmbrageOfSnow on January 31, 2019, 08:32:26 pm
Sorry if that came out harsh, long day, very slightly sick (mildly sniffly, but annoying) and strategic advice being disregarded as "let people make their own decisions" bothers me I guess.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: jotheonah on January 31, 2019, 09:11:08 pm
I prefer to let people make their own decisions about claiming.

Are you saying we shouldn't point out when people are starting to make sub-optimal decisions about claiming?

You don't have enough information to say whether my claiming is suboptimal. Only I have that information.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: 2.71828..... on January 31, 2019, 09:53:33 pm
I really like Haddock's point about Space.  I could lynch Space.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: 2.71828..... on January 31, 2019, 09:57:16 pm
Space and WCD are rising to the top for me as scum.  This is where I am at right now.

Confirmed Town: e, Ashersky
strong town reads: Glooble, mail-mi, Awaclus
town reads: Joth
Not too sure: Haddock, UoS
scummy: Space, WCD
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: mail-mi on January 31, 2019, 10:00:31 pm
Space and WCD are rising to the top for me as scum.  This is where I am at right now.

Confirmed Town: e, Ashersky
strong town reads: Glooble, mail-mi, Awaclus
town reads: Joth
Not too sure: Haddock, UoS
scummy: Space, WCD

switch awaclus and haddock, then make the "town" category the "slight scum" category, and move the confirmed town to just strong town and this is my reads list.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: faust on February 01, 2019, 12:55:53 am
Vote Count 3.1

Glooble (1): ashersky
Awaclus (2): Glooble, jotheonah
WestCoastDidds (1): 2.71828.....
jotheonah (1): Awaclus
mail-mi (1): Haddock
SpaceAnemone (1): mail-mi

Not Voting (3): SpaceAnemone, WestCoastDidds, UmbrageOfSnow

With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch. Day 3 ends on January 31, 2019, 01:00:00 am.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 01, 2019, 01:40:41 am
Faust, can you fix the D3 ends date? Says January 31
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: ashersky on February 01, 2019, 01:50:37 am
I'll post another thought on the Glooble post in a second.  But I guess a popsquiz is in order.

Would like to lynch {SA, Glooble, mail-mi}
Null {Awaclus, WCD, Haddock, UoS}
Towny {joth, 2.7}
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: ashersky on February 01, 2019, 02:00:27 am
Bold of us to assume “Radch-aligned” = the good guys, I suppose.

Vote: Glooble

I’m confused still. The quote makes it seem like you didn’t know/realize that the words “Radch-aligned” = town.

He's talking about the flavor. We all assumed (or at least those that know the flavor assumed) that protagonists of the book = town, but because of the flip we know differently.

This, and some posts following it, were the answers to my question.  Some thoughts on that:

1) Glooble never explained herself.  At least, not in response to me.  mail-mi did the explaining.

2) mail-mi did the explaining for another person's thought process, which is always, always scummy behavior.  It helps that they are both scum reads, so they could just be in it together and mail-mi is covering for a partner.

3) "talking about the flavor" sounds like a ret-con to me.  "Radch-aligned" is CLEARLY referring to the in-game alignments of a made-up mafia game by faust on f.ds.  It literally has the word "aligned" in it.  For those who might not know, aligned comes from alignment, which is an integral part of our game here.

The second part of the quote is "the good guys."  Now, in the mafia context, that's town.  In other contexts, it can mean lots of things.  But here's where the "she's talking about the flavor" falls apart.  Glooble has apparently read the book(s).  I've read the first book myself.  Based on that knowledge, one can make some inferences as to how the alignments in this game would shake out, although it doesn't really matter unless you are going to heavily weight the important of flavor claims.

But look at the actual statement. 

Bold of us to assume “Radch-aligned” = the good guys, I suppose.

"Radch-aligned" is in quotation marks, clearly referring to the in-game alignment.  She argues that making the assuming that said alignment is the alignment of the good guys is bold.  The "it's a flavor statement" arguers would have you believe that the "good guys" mentioned in that line refers to characters in the book.  The "it's a scummy statement worth voting for" supporters would say the "good guys" are the town players in the game.

Why do I think it was the second and not the first?  Glooble was one of the main players who was hyper-focused on the usage of "she" in the book, carrying it over into the game.  While being incredibly conscious of this point in the novel/world of the flavor, would she then go on to refer to the "guys" in the book?  Or is it more like that the generic "good guys" saying often used as a synonym for "our team" or "the not bad guys" or "town (in mafia games' case)" is what was meant?

I also don't see the reason or need for this comment if it's about flavor.  There's no value-added for either town or scum to say it.  But scum would say it to put the focus on how they themselves received the words "Radch-aligned" in their QT.

So, for a number of reasons, I reject mail-mi's cover story for Glooble's scum slip.

***

On the other hand, it's an odd scumslip to make.  But hey, Glooble's been out of the game for so long, who knows.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: Haddock on February 01, 2019, 04:02:33 am
I can't believe this is what we're spending our beginning of the day talking about.

vote: Awaclus

We can do better.

Vote: WestCoastDidds

On wagon D1, off wagon D2
Hmm.  Hard to argue with that.  A bit obvious maybe?  Then again WCD is new.

For the record, I strongly townread WCD.

Also worth noting:  Space was offwagon.

I wanted to join WCD (whom I trusted as townie) on the alternative mail-mi wagon because I couldn't feel the Swan wagon (which at that point was also at 2 votes), and I wanted to see what people did if there was an apparent going concern that wasn't LL. For me, I get WCD and myself as green-coloured names on a wagon on an unknown player. Whoever joins in 3rd/4th place is more likely not to be the same faction as mail-mi, so it gets information even while we're queueing up LL for the lynch.

I really really don't like the above.  At no point (again, that I can find) does Space vote for Lalight.  And yet says that LL is their main lynch candidate, while voting elsewhere.  What's that about?  In light of LL's flip I'd say that looks really scummy.  It gives you something to point to later and say "no but look I wanted LL lynched too" without ever actually helping the lynch.

I did want to lynch LL, but I also wanted to hunt for the other scums too with the time and resources left in D2 (before more weird night stuff and cult conversions came in to mess with my reads on people).

Wouldn't you say that it's interesting that the only other person who joined the wagon was LL herself, and even then, she eventually realised that it was too useful to town to let all that continue, and self-hammered rather than see her buddies tempted into exposing themselves on the mail-mi wagon?

I also note that you are now voting mail-mi, so you can't exactly accuse me of not having had grounds to be suspicious in the first place: mail-mi's behaviour hasn't been townie.

Space I'd like you to explain yourself a bit, I think.  Just, like: why the above vote, why didn't you ever vote Lalight, why the lack of votes in general, etc.

I mean, why vote LL at that point? Just to end the day sooner? I don't think it was particularly unreasonable for me to have assumed the day would still be going on at 9 or 10pm our time the day after I cast the mail-mi vote, even though it ended before noon (UK time). It just shows that more people agreed that LL was the correct lynch choice than could actually fit on the wagon, which is not that surprising when someone looks like they've probably scumslipped.
Intentionally or not, you're dodging the point.
Failing to commit to a vote for someone you are claiming to find scummiest is explicitly antitown.

1) it means that you as scum can throw shade at your partners and look good in retrospect without ever helping them be lynched.

2) it means that even if you are town, it is much more difficult to analyse your position after you flip: did you actually find x scummier than y or should we assume because you voted for y and not x that that was what you truly believed?

3) the point that you have already somewhat addressed: voting puts pressure on players, which is usually a good thing, making town players play townier and making scum players possibly slip.




Separately: Ash I'm sorry I still think you're wrong. "radch-aligned" refers to alignment obviously but "good guys" looked like a flavour comment.

If Glooble had said made the same statement but with the word "protagonists" instead of "good guys", I really don't think we'd be having this discussion. And I can't bring myself to interpret the statement as being intended to mean anything else.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: Glooble on February 01, 2019, 06:39:11 am
Ash i don’t know how to explain myself any better. Among my friend group “guys” is basically a gender-neutral term and I did not think of “good guys” as gendered in any way. Other people explained my logic because it made sense to them and/or they had the same initial thought, which was “oh. We’re not aligned with the protagonists of the book. Huh.”
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: Glooble on February 01, 2019, 06:41:53 am
Guys, I was just pointing out that normally, in a flavored game, scum is flavored as the villains of the source material and town is flavored as the heroes. As Breq is the protagonist of the books, obviously Faust flipped that. How does pointing that out make me scummy?

Also what motivation would I, as scum, have had to start the wagon on my own partner then push it for the entire day (save one brief moment when I thought it was losing traction and switched to my next biggest scumread?)

Who, by the way, is now my biggest scumread.

vote: Awaclus

This post is from before mail-mi even showed up for the day, btw so i did explain myself. And joth, who you’ve expressed a townread on, had exactly the same first thought as I did, he just expressed it more eloquently (because he wasn’t posting at 1 in the morning in a fit of insomnia.)
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: Glooble on February 01, 2019, 07:25:50 am
My number one WL is still Awaclus. It just seems like the most rational explanation to me for her behavior yesterday and at the beginning of this day. And look her refrain of “If I were scum, I’d be bussing her.” She says that over and over again, as it reinforce in all of our minds that that’s what Awaclus would do. Because it’s not what she did! And ya’ll are falling for that trick, hook, line and sinker.

But I admit I could be wrong. I need to do a reread before saying if I’m comfortable lynching Didds or Space. I have been reading them as very town most of the game.

My strongest townreads are Haddock, Joth, and e. Because e cop-confirmed ash, I have to include her, but based purely on her behavior I would have a moderate to strong scumread on her.

Umbrage I don’t have enough info on. Mail-mi - I have no idea. As I said before the cop claim is nonsensical to me regardless of her alignment. Nothing else really stands out.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: jotheonah on February 01, 2019, 07:33:01 am
It is scary how alike Glooble and I are thinking right now.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: jotheonah on February 01, 2019, 07:34:30 am
I think Awaclus knows their meta is well-known by now and is playing off-meta on purpose, which is why only the people who have been out of the loop are perceiving her obvious scumminess.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: Awaclus on February 01, 2019, 07:51:16 am
My number one WL is still Awaclus. It just seems like the most rational explanation to me for her behavior yesterday and at the beginning of this day. And look her refrain of “If I were scum, I’d be bussing her.” She says that over and over again, as it reinforce in all of our minds that that’s what Awaclus would do. Because it’s not what she did!

Because I'm not scum.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: Awaclus on February 01, 2019, 07:56:15 am
I think Awaclus knows their meta is well-known by now and is playing off-meta on purpose, which is why only the people who have been out of the loop are perceiving her obvious scumminess.

Out of the loop or not, I don't have any idea how anyone can perceive this:

Eh, I guess it doesn't hurt to weigh in on the LL wagon. I think the wagon is of very low utility and the lynch should happen later in the game if at all, instead of now. If LL is telling the truth, scum isn't going to be opposed to his lynch. If he is scum and he messed up his fakeclaim, scum isn't going to be opposed to his lynch either. Either way, we don't get any useful wagon analysis out of it.

as more scummy as this:

For instance, I'll learn that if LaLight flips scum, we should probably lynch Awaclus tomorrow.
For instance, I'll learn that if LaLight flips scum, we should probably lynch Awaclus tomorrow.

We could also do it the other way around!

vote: Awaclus

I'm down.

vote: Awaclus
If I’m right though, should we lynch elsewhere? Try to hit real scum?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: jotheonah on February 01, 2019, 08:54:46 am
Hey everybody. Work got crazy busy today so I'm voluntarily exiling myself from Mafia for the day so I can make my deadlines. I'll be back on late tonight or Saturday. Please don't forget that I'm double-hated thx.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: Haddock on February 01, 2019, 09:25:04 am
I think Awaclus knows their meta is well-known by now and is playing off-meta on purpose, which is why only the people who have been out of the loop are perceiving her obvious scumminess.

Out of the loop or not, I don't have any idea how anyone can perceive this:

Eh, I guess it doesn't hurt to weigh in on the LL wagon. I think the wagon is of very low utility and the lynch should happen later in the game if at all, instead of now. If LL is telling the truth, scum isn't going to be opposed to his lynch. If he is scum and he messed up his fakeclaim, scum isn't going to be opposed to his lynch either. Either way, we don't get any useful wagon analysis out of it.

as more scummy as this:

For instance, I'll learn that if LaLight flips scum, we should probably lynch Awaclus tomorrow.
For instance, I'll learn that if LaLight flips scum, we should probably lynch Awaclus tomorrow.

We could also do it the other way around!

vote: Awaclus

I'm down.

vote: Awaclus
If I’m right though, should we lynch elsewhere? Try to hit real scum?
I see nothing scummy about the last batch of quotes.
Except that you've cherry picked the very final one so that it looks bad out of context, which makes you look worse, not joth.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: Awaclus on February 01, 2019, 09:32:59 am
I see nothing scummy about the last batch of quotes.

What isn't scummy about them?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: Awaclus on February 01, 2019, 09:34:09 am
Also the last one says the exact same thing in context, I just shortened the post because it also had unrelated stuff in it.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 01, 2019, 11:14:04 am
Vote: Space

Seems like a better place for my vote right now than WCD
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: Haddock on February 01, 2019, 11:22:56 am
Also the last one says the exact same thing in context, I just shortened the post because it also had unrelated stuff in it.
This is BS.  The quote is about joth's theory that Lalight is some kind of cult leader/recruiter. 
Whereas where you are quoting it above, you are clearly trying to construct the narrative that joth wanted to drive a lynch through on you without being on the wagon.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: Haddock on February 01, 2019, 11:25:58 am
I see nothing scummy about the last batch of quotes.

What isn't scummy about them?
Nope.  We're not doing this.  Are you kidding?  Construct an actual case and I might pay attention
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: Haddock on February 01, 2019, 11:32:12 am
I could get behind e's Space vote; they are looking increasingly scummy, but I'd still say mail-mi is scummier for now.

I haven't done those rereads I promised.  I'll get to it.

Is it still too early to reconsider re ash and e?  I think e has been towny, but this obsession of ash's with the Glooble thing isn't great.  I dunno, I guess it's not explicitly scummy, but it is definitely distracting us all from the more important stuff.  Nah it's not enough to reconsider on them.  Not on my lynch list for today.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 01, 2019, 11:46:35 am
I could get behind e's Space vote; they are looking increasingly scummy, but I'd still say mail-mi is scummier for now.

I have yet to see a case on mail-mi.  Can you tell me why they are scummy?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: Awaclus on February 01, 2019, 11:48:44 am
Whereas where you are quoting it above, you are clearly trying to construct the narrative that joth wanted to drive a lynch through on you without being on the wagon.

No? I'm trying to construct the narrative that joth was looking to lynch someone other than LL. Which he was.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: mail-mi on February 01, 2019, 11:52:01 am
I could get behind e's Space vote; they are looking increasingly scummy, but I'd still say mail-mi is scummier for now.

I have yet to see a case on mail-mi.  Can you tell me why they are scummy?

I think the case on me is because of my claim and my stance on LaLight. I have already explained my claim, and yesterday I explained my stance lalight.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 01, 2019, 11:52:54 am
I could get behind e's Space vote; they are looking increasingly scummy, but I'd still say mail-mi is scummier for now.

I have yet to see a case on mail-mi.  Can you tell me why they are scummy?

I think the case on me is because of my claim and my stance on LaLight. I have already explained my claim, and yesterday I explained my stance lalight.

Ah, ok.  Maybe I should have said "good case on mail-mi"
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: mail-mi on February 01, 2019, 12:01:04 pm
Day 2 Final Vote Count

jotheonah (1): mail-mi
LaLight (7): Haddock, hypercube, jotheonah, Glooble, ashersky, 2.71828....., LaLight
DatSwan (1): Awaclus
Awaclus (1): DatSwan
mail-mi (2): WestCoastDidds, SpaceAnemone
Not Voting (1): Robz888

With 13 alive, it took 7 to lynch.

Time for some good old-fashioned wagon analysis!

On-wagon: Haddock, joth, glooble, ash, e
Off-wagon: me, awaclus, WCD, Space, Robz/UoS

So other than Joth (fully willing to admit I probably have tunnel vision) I have townreads on everyone that is on wagon. That's convenient. I would narrow onwagon scum down right now to {joth, haddock}

Off wagon are all the possibly scummy folk (Robz doesn't really count because he was gone) However scum did kill off-wagon, so that's a point to consider. Despite that, I think our lynch today should be off wagon. My current candidates are, therefore, {awaclus, WCD, space, UoS} and right now I think space comes out on top of that in scumminess, followed in some order by awaclus and WCD, then at the bottom is UoS. that is, of course, barring a reread.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Glooble on February 01, 2019, 12:45:32 pm
I've been trying to analyze the ash wagon for scum, and the one who keeps coming out looking the scummiest is... ash. I genuinely can't fault anyone for being on that wagon, because with all the information available at the time it just seems like a very pro-town wagon to be on.

I can't think of any plausible way this setup works with ash as scum. But ash's day one behavior is so scummy I don't regret voting for her and I can't honestly see anyone else as scummy for voting for her.

Sorry this post isn't more substantive. I genuinely spent my entire lunchbreak analyzing that wagon, and the conclusion I've come to is "Either ash is scum, and the set-up is horribly rigged against town, or ash played so nonsensically day one that its very possible her entire wagon is town."

I'll try and look at Didds and Space's behavior in later days and see if I can find a smoking gun. For now my vote stays where it is.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: Glooble on February 01, 2019, 01:00:48 pm
Obviously the whole wagon wasn't town because LaLight was on it. But the fact remains that based on the info available at the time, I can't fault anyone else on that wagon for being there. Especially given that we didn't know about the X2 hated, So the hammer thought she was L -2.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: Glooble on February 01, 2019, 01:02:35 pm
Can someone explain the "1 scum on wagon, 1 scum off" assumption to me? I don't know where that comes from.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: mail-mi on February 01, 2019, 01:06:26 pm
Obviously the whole wagon wasn't town because LaLight was on it. But the fact remains that based on the info available at the time, I can't fault anyone else on that wagon for being there. Especially given that we didn't know about the X2 hated, So the hammer thought she was L -2.

WCD was also on the ash wagon and shes not conf!town
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Glooble on February 01, 2019, 01:09:30 pm
Sorry this post isn't more substantive. I genuinely spent my entire lunchbreak analyzing that wagon, and the conclusion I've come to is "Either ash is scum, and the set-up is horribly rigged against town, or ash played so nonsensically day one that its very possible her entire wagon is town."


I worded this poorly, and now I'm quite certain ash or Awaclus is going to come and pedantically call it a scumslip, so let me get out in front of that. What I meant to say was "Either ash is scum, and the set-up is horribly rigged against town, or ash played so nonsensically day one that would have been very plausible for her entire wagon to be town."
Obviously the whole wagon wasn't town because LaLight was on it. But the fact remains that based on the info available at the time, I can't fault anyone else on that wagon for being there. Especially given that we didn't know about the X2 hated, So the hammer thought she was L -2.

WCD was also on the ash wagon and shes not conf!town

That's honestly what made me wan't to look back at it. But her logic was essentially the same as mine and joth's and I still think its solid logic, so I can't give her scum points for that.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: UmbrageOfSnow on February 01, 2019, 02:03:27 pm
Sorry ladies, I won't be able to get to this until later this afternoon.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on February 01, 2019, 04:26:37 pm
Okay, getting caught up...
It seems like e and others are finding me scummy, but the only (articulated) reason is that I was on the Asher wagon and off the LL one.

So, I’ll explain. I was super annoyed at Ash for shooting Mcmc. It looked scummy to me and I still don’t see how it was helpful to us. More importantly, we didn’t know he needed -2 to be lynched. I was in the process of reconsidering when the day ended suddenly. So, I was on the undersized Asher wagon, but that was not scummy.

The LL wagon. I spent the majority of the second half of D2 saying that I thought LL was scum. But if I had voted for him when I was saying that, he’d have been at L-1, and I didn’t want to do that in the event that she was hated for something like that and then I’d be the one who ended the day early. So, I continued to argue for the LL lynch, and stated my hesitancy in voting until the days end was closer.

As I watched people talk about LL, I wondered if it would be productive to see who he might jump to, given the chance. I chose Mail-mi because he hadn’t been around recently. At that point he hadn’t done anything really scummy, so I figured that if a real wagon formed on him, it would be illustrative. Space followed (she discusses this elsewhere) and then LL. For me, that jumps sealed his scumminess. Asher seems to have thought the same thing in in #898. I’d have voted for him when I woke up, but Asher, e, and then LLtook care of that when I was sleeping.

So, the VCA may not look good for me, but my posts demonstrate that it is not scummy.

As long as I am writing a humongous post, I’ll also say that I do not think Glooble is scummy, but rather just reacting to the revelation that the protagonist was scum. This surprised me, too. Perhaps in retrospect, it shouldn’t have, but heroes seem town. Most of the flavor heavy people seem to think this was any sort of slip. I think that is significant.

Space, Joth, and Glooble seem the most town to me.
Asher and e are a question. I have them green for now, but it tricky, you know? It would have been a set of bold scum moves, but bold wouldn’t be terribly surprising.
Awa is frustrating folks. That seems NAI, but also easy to lynch.
Haddock is new to me and I like the way he shares his thinking. But I don’t have any of the experience others have playing with her, and I don’t have a good sense of her. Town leaning.
UoS- (hi! I haven’t seen you since my first game ever!) I don’t have a sense of yet
Mail-mi wasn’t super scummy to me when I voted for her, but has become so as a result of the claim and the posts that followed it. She’s at the top of my list, at present. 

(Also, I am accustomed to being one of the few “her”s, so I keep thinking people are talking about me when I remember we are all her!
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on February 01, 2019, 04:55:06 pm
Sorry ladies, I won't be able to get to this until later this afternoon.

Can we please stop with the "ladies"? The whole point of the use of homogenised third person pronoun in the books is to get away entirely from gender norms and expectations. The point is not that all people are feminine, so using other gendered language is all kinds of wrong.

If you'd like a good Radch-flavoured collective word to use to refer to everyone, "citizens" would be a far better pick :-)
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on February 01, 2019, 05:07:23 pm
The LL wagon. I spent the majority of the second half of D2 saying that I thought LL was scum. But if I had voted for him when I was saying that, he’d have been at L-1, and I didn’t want to do that in the event that she was hated for something like that and then I’d be the one who ended the day early. So, I continued to argue for the LL lynch, and stated my hesitancy in voting until the days end was closer.

Not wanting to vote for someone in case they get lynched is closely related to what Haddock has taken exception to me over, which is not voting early enough for someone I said I thought was scummy.

As I watched people talk about LL, I wondered if it would be productive to see who he might jump to, given the chance. I chose Mail-mi because he hadn’t been around recently. At that point he hadn’t done anything really scummy, so I figured that if a real wagon formed on him, it would be illustrative. Space followed (she discusses this elsewhere) and then LL. For me, that jumps sealed his scumminess. Asher seems to have thought the same thing in in #898. I’d have voted for him when I woke up, but Asher, e, and then LLtook care of that when I was sleeping.

I was considering Glooble for a while before mail-mi, but on my own wagon analysis, he doesn't look too bad. From my PoV, with WCD as a townread, I wanted a wagon with a lot of green on it to make the black and red stand out.

Space, Joth, and Glooble seem the most town to me.
Asher and e are a question. I have them green for now, but it tricky, you know? It would have been a set of bold scum moves, but bold wouldn’t be terribly surprising.
Awa is frustrating folks. That seems NAI, but also easy to lynch.
Haddock is new to me and I like the way he shares his thinking. But I don’t have any of the experience others have playing with her, and I don’t have a good sense of her. Town leaning.
UoS- (hi! I haven’t seen you since my first game ever!) I don’t have a sense of yet
Mail-mi wasn’t super scummy to me when I voted for her, but has become so as a result of the claim and the posts that followed it. She’s at the top of my list, at present. 

This isn't chum-to-scum ordering in the middle, is it? I actually think Haddock is quite townie, and Awa, while he's too easy a mislynch, is also not guaranteed to be town just because he's a stick in the mud.

It's also important not to bind a read of Ash to a read of e. If Ash is scum, then e is not likely to be town because of the cop claim. If Ash is town and we're just considering that cop-result interaction in isolation, it can still go both ways for e.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on February 01, 2019, 05:11:28 pm
My own scum-to-chum list is roughly:

mail-mi
Awaclus, e
Joth, Glooble, UoS (null)
Ashersky
Haddock
WCD
Space

I need to read more RobzOfSnow and see whether I can work out anything about them.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on February 01, 2019, 07:08:04 pm

In response to Space responding to me without adding more quoting...

I agree with avoiding “ladies”. It doesn’t feel quite right and while I don’t know if it was happening here there are too many men who use that term to denigrate other men. Citizens is far better.

I understand why Haddock was taking you to task for not voting, and that I’m guilty of that as well. What that overlooks, though was how suddenly the Mcmc shit came, then the Asher lynch at L-2 unbeknownst to all of us, and then the day starting with Joth hated. There was a real risk that things were not as they seemed with votes, etc. talking about my vote without placing it was my attempt to avoid another early day.

No, my list was ordered by people as I thought of them. It started with chum and ended with scum but the middle was rando. I’m on an airplane so I’m a bit scattered.

I appreciate the reminder that Asher isn’t tied to e, I had forgotten how all that went down, and that it is rather unidirectional.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on February 01, 2019, 09:06:50 pm
Here's a post I attempted to make while I was reading up the other day.  By the time I pressed post the thread was locked - I didn't know cos I was only halfway through the reread:

"OK so I'm wAY not caught up yet. And am also fairly drunk. However.

I....

@faust how come Haddock didn't get punished for this post in which he did EXACTLY what I got punished for but without quotation marks?

everyone else, I'm workin on a big reread, just saw this on the way.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: jotheonah on February 01, 2019, 09:07:52 pm
actually scratch that, exactly the same including quotation marks.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: jotheonah on February 01, 2019, 09:08:30 pm
Then I had one more thought which I kept note of to be posted once I could post:

"OK so I wasn't able to compile jotheonah quotes while the thread was locked. But please everyone read through jotheonah and then come back and recognise that she's been scummayyyyy.

She has been very twitchy and defensive, hugely OMGUSsy, and not particularly contributive. Also has some reads that I think are really ugly, throwing shade at towny folks for not-good reasons."

vote: jotheonah

And now to today's business.

And also here. Literally no difference. Can I please have my hated removed or one given to Haddock?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: jotheonah on February 01, 2019, 09:22:21 pm
I actually appreciated Awaclus's case on me now that she's made it. I can totally see how my revelation about the survivor thing could look like me trying to derail my partner's lynch, especially if Awaclus is town, since that means she knew I was wrong (because the theory also included her). So, begrudging town points there I guess.

But it doesn't hold up in the context of the rest of the day. I was Mr. "LaLet's LaLynch LaLight". If I was bussing, why suddenly hedge and then not even commit to the hedge? Not only did I not move my vote off LaLight, I moved my vote onto LaLight in that very post and then never moved it again.

Still, Awaclus is actually seeming townier and townier to me. The case on Glooble and the case on me are both wrong but understandable, and not the kind of case a scum player desperate to divert the lynch would make. So unvote for now. Not by any means saying Awaclus isn't scum, but I'm willing to look elsewhere today.

I can't say the same for mail-mi. Still pretty sold on mail-mi as scum. Here are some scummy posts mail-mi has made:

well here's something. I've been adding to the conversation and creating some, when scum!me would be content with maintaining the meta of "oh he's just a lurker, we'll figure out if he's scum sooner or later".

Scum is more likely than town to make "scum!me would" or "scum!me wouldn't" arguments especially early on day one.

Ashersky is being ashersky, I'm completely null on her right now

Still liking hypercube, maybe glooble (also very willing to give day 1 pass) and would definitely go for mcmc, if only for lurking. Also willing to go back to joth.

I'm still super busy with homework and stuff, we'll see if I can pull together a reads post sometime soon.

All mail-mi's would-lynches are likely or confirmed town (at least from my perspective)

Here is a mail-mi reads list with colors added of confirmed folks.

1. SpaceAnemone - is doing regular SpaceAnemone things, from what I remember. Slight town read.
2. jotheonah - Still seems a little too flippant. Scum read
3. LaLight - Um... don't remember anything in particular right now, null read
4. DatSwan - same as above, though I suppose if everyone decided to sheep Awaclus I could join
5. mail-mi - is me
6. Awaclus - is Awaclus. As always, slight scum read
7. 2.71828..... - seems to be good. Wouldn't prefer to lynch today
8. WestCoastDidds - seems townie to me, wouldn't prefer to lynch
9. Robz888 - is in robz's d1 laze. Eh, null read
10. hypercube - preferred lynch
11. mcmcsalot - lurking, but I agree with e's and ash's posts though. Less sure about lynching him
12. ashersky - null read
13. Galzria - Lurking, but is a vet. Would also lynch him, probably over mcmc
14. Glooble - want to give him a d1 pass, but if everyone wants to lynch him I will

Ok, that wasn't as helpful as hoped, but I'll leave it here in case it sparks something in someone.

Galzria has 8 total posts, 3 of which are pregame. His vote is still on an RVS wagon on Robz.

vote: galzria

There was so much actual stuff going on and we had already had a lurker lynch debate and mail-mi still comes in with this.

Oh no

This one I'm just confused about. mail-mi, why did you say oh no when ash was lynched? just curious.

Here are some scummy things WCD has done:

-early day 1 she pushed pretty hard for the mcmc lurker lynch. she also seems to be going out of her way in her long posts and not offend people. so, make everyone like you, push a lynch on the lurker who can't defend themselves or get into a fight with you=awesome day 1 scum strategy. #291 for ref also #306. I feel a little bad for this case because it's totally possible WCD is just a really nice person and I feel bad giving scum points for that but then, that's what makes it such a good plan.

-handing out town points like it's christmas. a good way to participate without making waves or committing to scum reads

-this post where she tries to play the 'it's my first day' card despite having played 4 games here.
Good morning, folks!

Hi Haddock....in your giant post you quoted me and said that in regard to plan discussions that I had completely missed the point. So, uhm, yeah....that is accurate. I’m newish to the game (this is my 5th game) and something’s that are obvious to others take me awhile to work out. I think I miss the point of posts quite a bit at first, but improve with time....or at least that is my hope.

I am still confused about how Asher got lynched with only 5 votes so far from the deadline. Is there a power that can end the day, and then it’s the plurality vote? Is that more likely than two people having an extra vote? And did Asher’s shot give her immunity?

Ok, I got to stop for now.

TL;DR I'm off Awaclus for now, I still think mail-mi is scummy, WCD has done a lot of things that fit with a very particular scum narrative but they also fit pretty well with her just being a nice person who's not super confident in her mafia skills. Would probably vote though.

I also looked at Haddock and Space but nothing really jumped out at me.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: mail-mi on February 01, 2019, 10:04:42 pm
I can't say the same for mail-mi. Still pretty sold on mail-mi as scum. Here are some scummy posts mail-mi has made:

well here's something. I've been adding to the conversation and creating some, when scum!me would be content with maintaining the meta of "oh he's just a lurker, we'll figure out if he's scum sooner or later".

Scum is more likely than town to make "scum!me would" or "scum!me wouldn't" arguments especially early on day one.

I would invite you to read the context of that conversation. I can summarize here: Awaclus asked me for reasons I wasn't scum. I responded to the cases on me, but he didn't consider that good enough. So I came up with something else. What else should I have done here, if I was town, other than compare to what my scumself would be doing at that time?

Quote
Ashersky is being ashersky, I'm completely null on her right now

Still liking hypercube, maybe glooble (also very willing to give day 1 pass) and would definitely go for mcmc, if only for lurking. Also willing to go back to joth.

I'm still super busy with homework and stuff, we'll see if I can pull together a reads post sometime soon.

All mail-mi's would-lynches are likely or confirmed town (at least from my perspective)
that doesn't make me scum, that makes me bad at reading people. Which has been true for my entire f.ds career.

Quote
Here is a mail-mi reads list with colors added of confirmed folks.

1. SpaceAnemone - is doing regular SpaceAnemone things, from what I remember. Slight town read.
2. jotheonah - Still seems a little too flippant. Scum read
3. LaLight - Um... don't remember anything in particular right now, null read
4. DatSwan - same as above, though I suppose if everyone decided to sheep Awaclus I could join
5. mail-mi - is me
6. Awaclus - is Awaclus. As always, slight scum read
7. 2.71828..... - seems to be good. Wouldn't prefer to lynch today
8. WestCoastDidds - seems townie to me, wouldn't prefer to lynch
9. Robz888 - is in robz's d1 laze. Eh, null read
10. hypercube - preferred lynch
11. mcmcsalot - lurking, but I agree with e's and ash's posts though. Less sure about lynching him
12. ashersky - null read
13. Galzria - Lurking, but is a vet. Would also lynch him, probably over mcmc
14. Glooble - want to give him a d1 pass, but if everyone wants to lynch him I will

Ok, that wasn't as helpful as hoped, but I'll leave it here in case it sparks something in someone.


and obviously in light of things that have happened since then, my reads on people have now changed.

Quote
Galzria has 8 total posts, 3 of which are pregame. His vote is still on an RVS wagon on Robz.

vote: galzria

There was so much actual stuff going on and we had already had a lurker lynch debate and mail-mi still comes in with this.
that, my friend, is called a "pressure vote" to get someone who is lurking to come to the forefront. I didn't have much intention of lynching galz (though I wouldn't have been sad about it at the time) but i wanted him to get into the game more.

Quote
Oh no

This one I'm just confused about. mail-mi, why did you say oh no when ash was lynched? just curious.

I thought she was town and so when faust posted the final vote count for the day when ash was at L-2, i was both surprised and disheartened. that post could have also said "what?!" or "what the heck?" and meant the same thing

I also thought it would be humorous to post, so that's also a factor.

Quote
Here are some scummy things WCD has done:

-early day 1 she pushed pretty hard for the mcmc lurker lynch. she also seems to be going out of her way in her long posts and not offend people. so, make everyone like you, push a lynch on the lurker who can't defend themselves or get into a fight with you=awesome day 1 scum strategy. #291 for ref also #306. I feel a little bad for this case because it's totally possible WCD is just a really nice person and I feel bad giving scum points for that but then, that's what makes it such a good plan.

-handing out town points like it's christmas. a good way to participate without making waves or committing to scum reads

-this post where she tries to play the 'it's my first day' card despite having played 4 games here.
Good morning, folks!

Hi Haddock....in your giant post you quoted me and said that in regard to plan discussions that I had completely missed the point. So, uhm, yeah....that is accurate. I’m newish to the game (this is my 5th game) and something’s that are obvious to others take me awhile to work out. I think I miss the point of posts quite a bit at first, but improve with time....or at least that is my hope.

I am still confused about how Asher got lynched with only 5 votes so far from the deadline. Is there a power that can end the day, and then it’s the plurality vote? Is that more likely than two people having an extra vote? And did Asher’s shot give her immunity?

Ok, I got to stop for now.

TL;DR I'm off Awaclus for now, I still think mail-mi is scummy, WCD has done a lot of things that fit with a very particular scum narrative but they also fit pretty well with her just being a nice person who's not super confident in her mafia skills. Would probably vote though.

I also looked at Haddock and Space but nothing really jumped out at me.

i like your points about WCD.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 02, 2019, 01:11:43 am
It's also important not to bind a read of Ash to a read of e. If Ash is scum, then e is not likely to be town because of the cop claim. If Ash is town and we're just considering that cop-result interaction in isolation, it can still go both ways for e.

"I know ashersky is town (since he isn't my scum partner) but I still want to throw shade on e because too many ICs make the game really hard to win, especially after my partner LaLight was lynched D2"
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 02, 2019, 01:23:13 am
and Awa, while he's too easy a mislynch, is also not guaranteed to be town just because he's a stick in the mud.

Awaclus isn't townie because he is a stick in the mud (as you put it), he is townie because his content has been townie. Just like Glooble pointed out, his discussion this game has been characteristically "Awaclusian" but he has generated positive content for town. His reply #736 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=19374.msg784344#msg784344) through the end of D2 was very townie I thought. He did end off wagon at the end of the day, but his rationale was much townier than say why Space or WCD were off wagon
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 02, 2019, 01:23:53 am
Also, could someone go into detail as to why mail-mi's claim was scummy?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 02, 2019, 01:26:48 am
Also, could someone go into detail as to why mail-mi's claim was scummy?

Not just the claim content, but tell me why you think scum would have
1) claimed what mail-mi claimed
2) claimed it when mail-mi claimed (especially as it relates to mail-mi and LaLight being scum together)
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 02, 2019, 03:01:02 am
With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch. Day 3 ends on January 31, 2019, 01:00:00 am.

Faust, when does the day end? January 31 doesn't seem correct?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: faust on February 02, 2019, 03:05:52 am
Vote Count 3.2

Glooble (1): ashersky
Awaclus (2): Glooble, jotheonah
jotheonah (1): Awaclus
mail-mi (1): Haddock
SpaceAnemone (2): mail-mi, 2.71828.....

Not Voting (3): SpaceAnemone, WestCoastDidds, UmbrageOfSnow

With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch. Day 3 ends on February 07, 2019, 01:00:00 am.

@faust how come Haddock didn't get punished for this post in which he did EXACTLY what I got punished for but without quotation marks?
I cut him some slack as he just replaced in. These things will have consequences in the future.

Faust, when does the day end? January 31 doesn't seem correct?
Fixed now.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: Haddock on February 02, 2019, 05:58:18 am
The LL wagon. I spent the majority of the second half of D2 saying that I thought LL was scum. But if I had voted for him when I was saying that, he’d have been at L-1, and I didn’t want to do that in the event that she was hated for something like that and then I’d be the one who ended the day early. So, I continued to argue for the LL lynch, and stated my hesitancy in voting until the days end was closer.

Not wanting to vote for someone in case they get lynched is closely related to what Haddock has taken exception to me over, which is not voting early enough for someone I said I thought was scummy.
Yes, the two are related: if you read back you'll see that the start of that was my responding to e, who brought this up about WCD, and saying "yup Space's behaviour re the LL wagon is just as bad as WCD's".


Then I had one more thought which I kept note of to be posted once I could post:

"OK so I wasn't able to compile jotheonah quotes while the thread was locked. But please everyone read through jotheonah and then come back and recognise that she's been scummayyyyy.

She has been very twitchy and defensive, hugely OMGUSsy, and not particularly contributive. Also has some reads that I think are really ugly, throwing shade at towny folks for not-good reasons."

vote: jotheonah

And now to today's business.

And also here. Literally no difference. Can I please have my hated removed or one given to Haddock?
I nearly brought this up myself but figured faust was cutting me slack for having just subbed in.  (And yup that's the case apparently).


Also, could someone go into detail as to why mail-mi's claim was scummy?

Not just the claim content, but tell me why you think scum would have
1) claimed what mail-mi claimed
2) claimed it when mail-mi claimed (especially as it relates to mail-mi and LaLight being scum together)
From my perspective this really doesn't matter all that much.  Like, it's clear why the content of the claim is scummy, right?  Besides all the obvious reasons about how this is an incredibly convenient claim for them to make, on top of that:
 mail-mi has claimed to have targetted hyper D1, the day after which hyper ended up dead. 

Huh actually that makes mail-mi likelier as the cult leader or something?  With that in mind I might actually prefer my vote elsewhere.  I still haven't reread, will do so today and then consider moving my vote.

But also the "why would scum do this?" narrative is pure WIFOM, the obvious response is: "so that town will think 'surely no scum would be that dumb'"


That’s ridiculous. I’m going to take this to pm so I don’t clog the thread or get uncivil, and I suggest anyone else who disagrees with this action do the same.
The whole forum have already had this argument I'm afraid.  I was very much on your side, but the voices who cared the most were on the other side, so this is a fairly standard rule now.

Could you link me to that discussion? I tried to find it on my own and failed.
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=14692.0;all
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Glooble on February 02, 2019, 08:29:33 am
Anander literally fights herself in the books. And one faction of her is the primary villain. I don’t think WCD’s assumption is scummy in the least.

Ah, OK. Sorry Didds, I probably shouldn't try to scumhunt based on flavour I'm not familiar with.

No worries.

There are are lots of Aananders in the book, some that are Breq is working for an some she is working against. If you are confused, its because it is confusing, not because I am scummy. The whole point of me talking about the book is to try to help flesh out what we might be dealing with.

I know that the Radchaii that Breq represents are what we know is town. These Radchaii started as part of Aanander and believe that the empire has expanded enough and that humans employees should be used to staff the ships instead of ancillaries of the AIs (conquered humans whose brains have been replaced with AI connections- corpse warriors). Everything else I am uncertain about.

There are three possibilities that I can think of for either third party or scum.
1. The other side of Aanander Minaii who want to keep expanding and conquering. In the book there are characters who follow this part if Aanander like Hetnys, the religious leader whose name I forget, and Tisserwat until she gets changed
2. The Presgar- aliens who built this super powerful gun and who have the capability to wipe out humans, but are bound by a treaty not to. There are two Presgar translaters who interact/work with Breq in the books
3. The Notai, who are in a ship beyond the ghost gate. They have been buying human bodies to use for ancillaries that were stolen and sold illegally by  Hetnys (I think).

Glooble, space, anyone else who has read the books....please feel free to correct or amend.

If Aanander tried to recruit Hyper and is about to kill him, it must be the expansionist Aanander. Interestingly, I think Hetnys (Asher) would be in that faction.  So, e and Ash together in the faction is an interesting possibility, for sure, and is kind of genius, right?

Bolding mine.

I think WCD is town.

If she were scum, she would have known Breq was a scum flavor name. I don't think she would have realized how difficult it would be for individual town players (with only their own flavor name, mcmcs, and ash's to go on) to figure that out.

I can certainly see scum!WCD being savvy enough to realize that those town members familiar with the flavor would assume Breq was town aligned, but I think its more likely she reached the same conclusion I did because she had the same information I did.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: ashersky on February 02, 2019, 08:36:00 am
For the record, I was also against the quote rule, but was in the minority. Was I also the player who exploited it and forced the discussion in the first place?

Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: jotheonah on February 02, 2019, 08:47:30 am
Also, could someone go into detail as to why mail-mi's claim was scummy?

Not just the claim content, but tell me why you think scum would have
1) claimed what mail-mi claimed
2) claimed it when mail-mi claimed (especially as it relates to mail-mi and LaLight being scum together)

Sure.

1) Because it’s a great claim. You’re theoretically valuable but you never have to provide value. There’s always a reason to keep you alive just one more night.

2) Possibly mail-mi thought she was under more preasure than she was. Possibly she really did have to go and wouldn’t be back until deadline and didn’t want to end up being the last minute backup lynch if we got off of LaLight somehow. Possibly she was worried about being the nightkill by a vigilante. Possibly it’s WIFOM.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Glooble on February 02, 2019, 08:56:38 am
I would be happy to start an LL wagon. I also think we should be looking at Robz.

I think LL's thing about criticizing Joth for SK-hunting (which was mostly directed at Ash), then scumreading e because e's role was just the sort of thing that the apparent recruiter faction would have is almost too lazy to be scummy. It also misses that e and Ash are kind of linked by e's claimed PR result on Ash, which I don't think he'd feel the need to claim as scum. That is, unless e and Ash are on the same scum/recruiter faction.

Here's Space defending LL, albeit in a very hedgy way. At this point LL only has one vote on her (mine) but others have expressed suspicion. So clearly not inevitable at this point.

Other news: I'm happy to continue the robz wagon as a proderator, but am conflicted now. The timing of the recent robz votes has a whiff of scum-pushing easy wagon.

TBH, I was tempted to throw a vote on the pile, since I have to get a vote down somewhere, and I'm still torn about where else to put it. Also, I think accepting unapologetic extended lurker play is bad for mafia on this site overall. Robz has made his public identity known on this site before, so I've read some of his real-life work. The fact I saw him mentioned by name in an article shared by a UK-based friend of a completely different political flavour in the past day or two makes me suspect that Robz may well be busy right now!

Anyway, I think we have sufficiently more information now than D1 that policy-lynching isn't really the best option. Can we go back to your hunch about Joth and Mail-mi? If you're suspicious that their behaviour means that one or other could be scum, would you put ~40% or so on each of them being some kind of scum? Is there anyone in the game you think is more than 40% likely to be scum? If not, why not scumhunt along those lines instead of pushing a lurker lynch?

PPE 9 (work keeps getting in the way...!)

And again trying to shift the conversation to an alternative wagon.

Then the wagon starts and she says nothing at all about LaLight, aside from vague speculations about the mechanics of her fakeclaim which I'm not sure I totally see the point of, until this post like seven pages later: (note that she's not gone that whole time, she's mostly just speculating about the setup and the recruiter faction while totally ignoring the LaLight wagon.)

LL retconning an option into his claim is scummy.

Yes, I agree with this. I'll vote there to get a lynch through, but I'm not also trying to work out whether LL's claim still has more to tell us about the game setup.

Then we get to her mathematical takedown of my arguments against Awaclus. I won't quote those here because 1. they are long and 2. I don't think they are in and of themselves scummy except in as much as they give Space an opportunity to participate and appear helpful and analytical and towny without requiring her to talk at all about the LaLight case.

The narrative I'm seeing emerge here is that Space is afraid if she focuses on LaLight she will scumslip and say something she's not supposed to know, so instead she focuses on the setup, then zeroes in on my argument with Awaclus. This is smart scum play. It doesn't really do much to help town but it still gives a kind of subconscious town cred in the eyes of people like me who see her posting a lot and think "she's really trying" "she's really helpful" "better not to lynch her."

Interesting that she hasn't applied any of her logic and math skills to actual scum hunting. only to taking down my argument.

Sure, mail-mi is a would-lynch. I wondered where most of the scrutiny on him from D1 went, though I was voting him for much of that time anyway.

Vote: mail-mi

My main would-lynch is still LL.

I wouldn't lynch Awaclus at this point without a scummy flip from LL of a type that indicates LL was on a team with other scums.

ANd finally lands on the next most viable wagon. But says she wants to vote LL. As has been pointed out before. But in the larger context of the day, seems a heck of a lot scummier to me than it did without that context.

I don't think the Awaclus lynch is going to happen today (joth and Haddock seem like the only people even potentially willing to join me.) So in the interest of advancing the day and in light of the above evidence:

vote: Space
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: jotheonah on February 02, 2019, 09:08:09 am
That was a good case, and a good point about WCD.

vote: Space
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: Haddock on February 02, 2019, 09:45:24 am
I'm following along but not able to post properly rn. Will have more to contribute tonight.
I am considering voting space but am a little torn for reasons I will talk about when I have more time. Aside from the obvious one that we know each other irl so the postgame consequences of potentially mislynching them are tricky :P
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on February 02, 2019, 10:14:42 am
TL;DR I'm off Awaclus for now, I still think mail-mi is scummy, WCD has done a lot of things that fit with a very particular scum narrative but they also fit pretty well with her just being a nice person who's not super confident in her mafia skills. Would probably vote though.

I also looked at Haddock and Space but nothing really jumped out at me.

Hi...the conclusion that I am actually a nice person who is not super confident in my mafia skills is incredibly accurate. And I appreciate that when you look through that lens you can make sense of how/why I am playing the way I am.

The length of my posts, for example, is tied diectly to my attempt to build community and try to provide clarity about my thought process so that y’all can help me see where I went wrong when my conclusions are wanting. I don’t particularly like it that I am not yet confident in my skills...I am a grown-ass woman who can do hard things irl...but I am generally tentative when I am learning new things, so it is what it is. Hyper, mcmc, and Swan have played with with me the most for the longest, but they aren’t here to attest to this pattern. Space has some insight since she was in my last game. Mcmc and iguana say that I play like Eevee, who I’ve never met.

Glooble seems to be reading me well right now. And the quote he points to where I am certain that Breq was town is illustrative. I’m still processing that unexpected turn of events and think faust is a mad genius. Role madness, indeed!

I don’t think that I am playing particularly well right now because I don’t have a good sense of where the scum are. I was sure that LL was scummy, but it’s not reflected in my votes. I don’t have a good case on mail-mi but my gut says he’s scummy, but I haven’t had time to read carefully and build a case.

There isn’t much bottom in this game (except maybe Hyper and me). Lots of seasoned players and everyone is playing well, so I’m not sure how to go about things. I don’t like that uncertain feeling....feels floundery to me. So I am reading with interest. Because there isn’t much bottom and the only other inexperienced player is gone, I feel like I make an easy target, and I think that if scum decides to focus on me, that I’ll likely be lynched. I don’t want to lean on my newishness, but I think it’s an important piece to keep in mind as we examine where votes are accumulating and why.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: Haddock on February 02, 2019, 10:33:08 am
TL;DR I'm off Awaclus for now, I still think mail-mi is scummy, WCD has done a lot of things that fit with a very particular scum narrative but they also fit pretty well with her just being a nice person who's not super confident in her mafia skills. Would probably vote though.

I also looked at Haddock and Space but nothing really jumped out at me.

Hi...the conclusion that I am actually a nice person who is not super confident in my mafia skills is incredibly accurate. And I appreciate that when you look through that lens you can make sense of how/why I am playing the way I am.

The length of my posts, for example, is tied diectly to my attempt to build community and try to provide clarity about my thought process so that y’all can help me see where I went wrong when my conclusions are wanting. I don’t particularly like it that I am not yet confident in my skills...I am a grown-ass woman who can do hard things irl...but I am generally tentative when I am learning new things, so it is what it is. Hyper, mcmc, and Swan have played with with me the most for the longest, but they aren’t here to attest to this pattern. Space has some insight since she was in my last game. Mcmc and iguana say that I play like Eevee, who I’ve never met.

Glooble seems to be reading me well right now. And the quote he points to where I am certain that Breq was town is illustrative. I’m still processing that unexpected turn of events and think faust is a mad genius. Role madness, indeed!

I don’t think that I am playing particularly well right now because I don’t have a good sense of where the scum are. I was sure that LL was scummy, but it’s not reflected in my votes. I don’t have a good case on mail-mi but my gut says he’s scummy, but I haven’t had time to read carefully and build a case.

There isn’t much bottom in this game (except maybe Hyper and me). Lots of seasoned players and everyone is playing well, so I’m not sure how to go about things. I don’t like that uncertain feeling....feels floundery to me. So I am reading with interest. Because there isn’t much bottom and the only other inexperienced player is gone, I feel like I make an easy target, and I think that if scum decides to focus on me, that I’ll likely be lynched. I don’t want to lean on my newishness, but I think it’s an important piece to keep in mind as we examine where votes are accumulating and why.
What do you mean by "not much bottom"? If you mean people are not scummy, disagree.
I have a town read on almost noone at this point. Almost.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on February 02, 2019, 10:34:13 am
By not much bottom, I meant in terms of skill and experience. Seems like lots of experienced pros to me.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: Glooble on February 02, 2019, 11:21:31 am
If anyone didn't know, Space is at L-1 now. Let's not hammer before she has a chance to respond.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: Awaclus on February 02, 2019, 11:24:38 am
If anyone didn't know, Space is at L-1 now. Let's not hammer before she has a chance to respond.

Is Space hated too? I'm counting two more votes after the VC which shows two votes.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: Glooble on February 02, 2019, 11:27:15 am
If anyone didn't know, Space is at L-1 now. Let's not hammer before she has a chance to respond.

Is Space hated too? I'm counting two more votes after the VC which shows two votes.

For some reason I thought it took 5 to lynch. Never mind we have some leeway.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: jotheonah on February 02, 2019, 11:52:48 am
By not much bottom, I meant in terms of skill and experience. Seems like lots of experienced pros to me.

My advice is try things, take risks. You’ll learn quick that way.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on February 02, 2019, 01:12:06 pm
Argh.. thanks for not hammering right away :-/ I'm just home from the afternoon's rehearsals, and I'm expecting a friend for dinner and Netflix (yay, new Disco episode!) any minute now, but I think they'll be heading back before ~7pm forum time, so I'll be back then.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: Haddock on February 02, 2019, 01:31:28 pm
This post is entitled                 Reasons I'm Conflicted About Space: (Not the title of Neil Degrasse Tyson's Autobiography, I guess)

There are bigly scum narratives for various of the things that they have done.  As have been presented by me to an extent but more eloquently by Glooble.
However, as I was wandering around earlier looking for a barbershop, I kinda convinced myself that there is a town narrative as well.

Remember when I said
the probability that someone is scum is always so small that if you just follow the probability you'll never make a decision.
in direct reference to Space's approach to whoever-it-was's post? 

I could see this being what has happened.  Like: Space is a very very analytical person, almost to a fault, and mafia is definitely a game where analysis is very helpful but only up to a certain point, past which the lack of information just makes analysing basically impossible, and so if you're relying on pure analysis you can't make a decision.

I could definitely see town!Space having this "issue" (if you can call it an issue); that would explain their lack of votes in general and their reluctance to commit to an LL lynch.


It doesn't explain some of Space's more blatant hedgey defences of LL that Glooble has already pointed out, but it gives a potentially towny narrative to their behaviour in general.


I guess the tl;dr is that a lot of Space's behaviour is scummy in a vacuum (as I and others have pointed out), and I still get some scummy vibes from it all, but taking into account Space's personality generally, it might not be as scummy as it looks.


This has been Reasons I'm Conflicted About Space.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: Haddock on February 02, 2019, 01:32:22 pm
Now for some rereads.  I definitely owe rereads of mail-mi and of Glooble, I'll start there.

My current reads go something like:

Moderate-to-strong scum:
mail-mi, Space

Weak scum:
WCD (yes am taking into account Glooble's very good point, but it isn't really enough on its own - I think we underestimate newish players at our peril),
ash (If I were to ignore e's result)

Null:
Awaclus, UoS,

Once-felt-scum-and-now-feels-town-so-kinda-null-but-not-really:
joth

Slight town:
e

Moderate town:
Glooble


Let's see if these change after rereads.

Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: Haddock on February 02, 2019, 02:13:22 pm
mail-mi.

105 posts.

Starts with a discussion of irl stuff and an RVS on Robz.  Nothing there.

This is a classic early mail-mi post, and for some reason I want to give it town points:

So, WestCoast, DatSwan, hypercube, and Glooble, what's your mafia playing experience?

I played in this forum years and years ago. I stopped because I was taking it too seriously and it was stressing me out.

cool

are you scum?
That's not exactly hard to emulate I guess.




Here's some weird super-early something re Space:
Townread on space. I remember him usually doing all this setup and stuff like this as town

Or maybe it's just a spaceread on space.

Man, this is such a crappy wagon. Let's join a different one.

Vote: Galzria

ok vote: galzria
Like, either this is weeeeirrrddd hedgey white-knighting or it's scum trying to subliminally make people feel good about their partner.  Or it's just mail-mi being mail-mi, I dunno.  It's bizarre though, and I don't like it.  Like, really.  Surely everyone discusses the setup early in the game, there's nothing else to talk about.  How do you give townpoints for this?  Meh.
Also an RVS vote for [me], fair enough.




This is interesting:
I remember him usually doing all this setup and stuff like this as town

Okay, let's get this out of the way: I AM NOT, AND NEVER HAVE BEEN, A "HE"!!! Sorry for being shouty, but while you've been gone, the whole forum has got a lot more progressive about respecting people's gender presentation and pronouns, and I'd really like to keep that progress!

My preferred pronoun is they/them, and it's even in my sig line to help people remember. I'll settle for she/her in general, and especially for this game, since it's very in keeping for the flavour.
WOOPS sorry about that.

Townread on space, I remember her doing this setup stuff as town
I would be willing to exclude the possibility of both mail-mi and Space being scum based on this interaction alone.  If they have a shared QT then mail-mi already knows Space's gender.  And I don't see scum!Space being willing to fake something like this.



This gives me scumvibes:
ah, a day 1 wagon on me. some things never change

vote: mail-mi

Mass claims on day one are always a bad idea.

You're probably right. I guess a better question would be, are there obvious flavor names that would be scum?
"Oh, yeah, I'm always seen as scummy D1, hawhaw" is a classic scum ploy to try to discredit the wagon.  I should know, I've used it a hell of a lot.



Scumvibes here too:
Vote: Jotheonah

This felt like pouncing on mail-mi for something that might very well be wrong but was not especially likely to come from scum. (Town needs no help tricking itself into mass claiming.)

When does scum ever actually do this? Scum doesn't need to pounce at this juncture. Scum just needs to wait for a good-looking town wagon and slide onboard.

Well, scum wants to look like they're.scumhunting.

vote: joth

vote: hypercube

This is exactly the position scum wants to be on the wagon. Voting for someone who already has votes, and turning a couple votes into an actual wagon

I know that didn't make much sense, I'm having a hard time putting my thoughts into words. I hope you (meaning the general populus)understands what I'm trying to say
This is mail-mi's first real vote, and it's on a conf!townie.  Also note that mail-mi's post here is casually based on the assumption that joth is town, without even mentioning it, implying mail-mi might know something we don't.


In light of that, this:
Vote: hypercube
Why?

Is hypercube your scumbuddy?

Nope I'm just trying to create conversation. I know why I'm voting for him (the main reason is wagon placement as explained) but I'm wondering why e is voting for him
Looks a lot like scum fishing for reasons to push a wagon, when they don't really have good ones themselves.


Suddenly pivots round onto joth, joining the very wagon he was voting hyper for joining earlier (he states multiple times that that's his only reason for voting hyper). 
Then that doesn't work so he goes back to hyper again:
Looks like joth isnt happening right now so I'll go back to vote: hypercube
once e posts a case.



Then posts a reads list:
1. SpaceAnemone - is doing regular SpaceAnemone things, from what I remember. Slight town read.
2. jotheonah - Still seems a little too flippant. Scum read
3. LaLight - Um... don't remember anything in particular right now, null read
4. DatSwan - same as above, though I suppose if everyone decided to sheep Awaclus I could join
5. mail-mi - is me
6. Awaclus - is Awaclus. As always, slight scum read
7. 2.71828..... - seems to be good. Wouldn't prefer to lynch today
8. WestCoastDidds - seems townie to me, wouldn't prefer to lynch
9. Robz888 - is in robz's d1 laze. Eh, null read
10. hypercube - preferred lynch
11. mcmcsalot - lurking, but I agree with e's and ash's posts though. Less sure about lynching him
12. ashersky - null read
13. Galzria - Lurking, but is a vet. Would also lynch him, probably over mcmc
14. Glooble - want to give him a d1 pass, but if everyone wants to lynch him I will
Think someone's already brought this up: the stance on LL sucks, the stance on hyper sucks and the stance on mcmc sucks.  Everyone else, who the hell knows - except I have a townread on Glooble so I don't like the hedge there either.



This is a genuinely towny post:
I just reread hypercube, and I am no longer satisfied with my vote on her unvote. She hasn't really responded to the wagon on her, which is would be odd scum behavior to me. I feel like scum!hypercube would react more.
and he sticks with that position even when given an opportunity to get back in there. 
I just reread hypercube, and I am no longer satisfied with my vote on her unvote. She hasn't really responded to the wagon on her, which is would be odd scum behavior to me. I feel like scum!hypercube would react more.

I actually disagree with this, town defends wagons on themselves very strongly, they don’t mind getting embroiled in controversy. Scum really wants their wagon to just die down and go away.

that's a good point, however, I still feel like she's less scummy than I at first thought. If she ends up being the lynch for the day, I'll join, but she's no longer my preferred lynch.
Yeah that's townier stuff.
This also feels pretty genuine:
Galzria has 8 total posts, 3 of which are pregame. His vote is still on an RVS wagon on Robz.

vote: galzria

oh duh, this also appears to be a lurker lynch. As I said I dislike that instead of people strongly going "i don't like the hyper wagon" we are just going maybe we should lynch player x or y who has posted no content.

he's basically a placeholder for my vote until I can do a proper reread and find someone better

or until someone else presents a good case. the only case I remember off the top of my head right now is the one on hypercube

How about the case on mcmcsalot I made just moments ago?

i only skimmed over it, now I'm gonna go look at it.

I’m going to go ahead and say it: I strongly dislike the cube wagon. Everything about it feels scummy and bad. I’m going to move my vote to vote: mcmc. Not because of lurking, because of the posting she’s done since she stopped lurking.

I think describing the hypercube wagon as stalled while hypercube was the leading wagon, after saying she just caught up, is a scumslip. Someone who just caught up wouldn’t make that mistake. Someone who was reading along and not posting and decided to make an appearance when the heat started getting on them might.

I know that when I’m scum it’s hard to get myself to actually reread since I’m not actually looking for information.

Even if the mistake isn’t a scum slip, “sorry I’ve been lurking, I’m going to reread and conclude that the best lynch happens to also be the person with the most votes on her already” doesn’t look great on its own.

I'm not sure what I think about this. On the one hand, I like it, because I think it's scummy that mcmc came back right after we started putting pressure on her. I also like the last paragraph of this case.

On the other, the hyper wagon was stalling--it wasn't growing in votes or declining in votes. It was just kinda stagnant. I also still scumread you a little bit, so I don't trust this case quite as much.

conclusion: mcmc is a little scummier to me now


Oh no
Coming from lots of people this is slightly scummy; it's probably a bit towny coming from mail-mi.


She then has a whole bunch of long posts and I don't know what to make of them. It's mostly a fight with joth, and since I definitely found joth scummy at the time I can totally understand why mail-mi pushes back there as well.   But now if I am leaning towards town!joth...  I dunno any more.



This is quite sheepy in a way I don't like:
i like glooble's thoughts about lalight and joth so far. Need to take some time to put my own thoughts together about non-joth, non-ash, and non-e people.
especially since mail-mi never actually goes on to vote Lalight, just sticking with the joth tunnel
Oof, followed by this:
My question is just, what motivation does scum!LL have to claim that? Yes, there is wifom, but saying "I may eventually betray town so go ahead and lynch me" just does NOT sound like a good scum tactic.

Ash (I think it was ash?) pointing out how adding the "Oh yeah I get to choose if I switch alignments" after the initial claim is a good point. However, I still don't see the benefit (as scum) to making a claim like that.

Except it worked. It stalled the wagon. Precisely because it doesn't make sense.

I leave it to people who know LaLight better than I do- is this the kind of moved she would pull? Claim something that seems like it would make the town more likely to lynch her than act all contrite?

Again, like I said, wifom. I think LL is town and we should look elsewhere for scum
Bad-bad



Then some super-hedgey posts where he hedges on practically every player in the game:
starting my reread with hyper's claim. this post will collect my thoughts as I read.

I'm honestly not sure how much I like space's reply to it, though there's nothing I can pick out. Just a feeling.

Space also continues to push ash/e, which is a pretty unlikely thing to do. I think it makes her a little more townie.

not sure how I feel about WCD.

there's a lot of talk about hypercube's claim, none of which I find particularly towny or scummy. so that's unfortunate

I think haddock is pretty towny.

I also think glooble is pretty towny. Lalight is looking worse to me as I read

i am now out of time. we shall see what happens later today. Still comfortable with my vote where it is at, but I definitely can move it to lalight right now. Also currently might be willing to vote space if that ends up going anywhere. And Datswan, haven't seem much of her so far in my read, would be willing to vote
Okay, I'm not sure how much time I'll have right now. I'm going to go do a reread, but let me pencil down some pre-reread thoughts just in case I can't finish.

- wagon on me is bad, nobody should join it

- Space doing mathy things seems like both town!space and scum!space. Doesn't change my read on her. Although I didn't like her criticism of glooble's logic, as haddock pointed out. Maybe slight scum read?

- my read on joth has not changed so far

- I still think LL is telling the truth, though I'm gonna go reread her. I've been mulling over Ash's point about her retconning her claim, and I think he has a point.

um... that's pretty much what I'm thinking right now


The claim has been done to death but absolutely looks bad to me.


Oh also as I pass it:
I get a hard time making a case based on someone's votes for me, actually. I think both scum and town would vote me after my claim, because claim is not exactly townie. The only person acting really weird about my claim is mail-mi. This is also self-preservation, so vote: mail-mi

One more thing: if you do not lynch me, at one point I will be able to prove the claim (unless scum targets me every night just to get my lynch through which is a waste of shots, better for us as well), either declining the offer faust gave me and possibly dying? being hated? Hopefully something that will be obvious in thread or if you won't believe me on D4 that I am still alive therefore must be scum, you can lynch me then.

How about that?
This could be a desperate attempt at distancing.



mail-mi then contributes almost nothing today, except some defensiveness, and eventually this:
Day 2 Final Vote Count

jotheonah (1): mail-mi
LaLight (7): Haddock, hypercube, jotheonah, Glooble, ashersky, 2.71828....., LaLight
DatSwan (1): Awaclus
Awaclus (1): DatSwan
mail-mi (2): WestCoastDidds, SpaceAnemone
Not Voting (1): Robz888

With 13 alive, it took 7 to lynch.

Time for some good old-fashioned wagon analysis!

On-wagon: Haddock, joth, glooble, ash, e
Off-wagon: me, awaclus, WCD, Space, Robz/UoS

So other than Joth (fully willing to admit I probably have tunnel vision) I have townreads on everyone that is on wagon. That's convenient. I would narrow onwagon scum down right now to {joth, haddock}

Off wagon are all the possibly scummy folk (Robz doesn't really count because he was gone) However scum did kill off-wagon, so that's a point to consider. Despite that, I think our lynch today should be off wagon. My current candidates are, therefore, {awaclus, WCD, space, UoS} and right now I think space comes out on top of that in scumminess, followed in some order by awaclus and WCD, then at the bottom is UoS. that is, of course, barring a reread.
Which, eh.  It's fine.  Pretty much following general consensus.



That's it.
Man, I dunno what to say.  My gut says scummy (though it said towny when I first did my catch-up reread in D1), and I see nothing to really overwrite that.  Maybe he's weak-to-moderate scum rather than moderate-strong scum.  Still scummy overall though.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Haddock on February 02, 2019, 03:30:56 pm
Glooble
circa 135 posts
Btw Glooble it would be great if you could put up some kind of tagline in your signature or your avatar-text, so players who wish to Ctrl+F for your posts can do so.  Ctrl-Fing for "Glooble" gets tons of false positives.


Ok so first serious post:
I don’t love any of these new wagons that are forming, but my Galz vote was more or less completely random and now I have better options. Hypercube, I’m leaning towards changing my vote to you right now. Would you care to explain your vote for joth and your “wagons are good” comment? It seems to me that rushing a wagon at this point makes a lot more sense if you’re scum.
This is maybe microscopically scummy.  Mostly because I don't agree that rushing a wagon is scummy.

Well this has been enlightening. I have to go do work away from my computer, I'll check in at lunch if I have time, in the meantime,

vote:mail-mi
"Enlightening" could be the new "Interesting".  It adds nothing and is very ambiguous.  Again some very minor scumpoints.

This is a moderately scummy post:
At the risk of sounding scummy given that she is my sister irl, I don't get the wagon on joth right now. He's being sarcastic and flippant, but that's just his style. All of his observations seem genuine to me.

Day one is hard, there's so little concrete to go on. I'm eager to hear ashersky's secret plan to fight inflation (have we done West Wing Mafia yet? that could be fun.)

Anyway, this little fight between DatSwan and Awaclus doesn't look great for either of them, but DatSwan comes out of it looking a little more jumpy and defensive, which is often how I feel early on as scum, so for now, vote: DatSwan

2) people who state they are waiting for said plan are attempting to be artificially townie, and thus are scummy

I can buy into this. vote: Glooble

All I said was “I’m eager to hear this plan”. Nothing about waiting for it. I then proceeded to make an unrelated vote in the same post.
This kind of hairtrigger defensiveness can often come from scum.

I admit I have been jumpy and defensive since I started getting votes on me, and I know that doesn’t look good. I’m pretty sure it’s  because 1. I’m just an anxious person, and 2. I was given a very strange role and I’m still figuring out its implications for my playstyle.
This is a fascinating (tm) softclaim.  I lean towny on the softclaim itself; as scum do you really tie yourself down to coming up with a "weird" fakeclaim?

This was the big plan?
Towny response to the ash shot.




Then she starts the LaLight wagon, which is obviously a massively towny move.
Continues to push that wagon.


This is a cool post:
The only reason I'm not voting ashersky is I think he's unlikely to be scum with that power. But that leaves me thinking she's town that's playing really badly, and that doesn't sit super well with me with what I know of ashersky.

It has no bearing at this juncture, but we often discuss having vig shots directed.  But there is thecscum element there that can’t be erased. Instead, I used the flow of day and the votes.

Honestly, if I had chosen by myself, I’d have shot Glooble.

This makes zero sense to me. Ash is saying "I didn't want to have town direct my shot, because then scum would manipulate it." (so far so good). So instead, I let myself be guided by the top wagon, because clearly there's no possibility that scum is manipulating that.

(I am of course being sarcastic. There is every possibility that the largest day one wagon is on town and being manipulated by scum, in fact it's much, much more likely than not.)

Someone convince me that ashersky could be scum without the set up being broken because I badly want to vote for her.

I played a normal game on another site where scum team had 1 dayvig shot. Also maybe they should forgo the nk now. Or he’s a third party. Pick one

LaLight sure is quick to give joth a reason to vote for ash.
It manages to simultaneously give me townvibes on Glooble, joth and ash.  (Since Lalight prompting joth to vote for ash wouldn't likely happen if joth was Lalight's scumpartner, or indeed if ash was.)


alright then

I am Queter, a Radch-Aligned Shy Bugged Compulsive Visitor. I have to visit someone every night. If I don't get targeted by anyone and my Visit will be successful, I will become Self-Aligned with powers and win condition yet unknown. Bugged part of my role is that if investigated I will return Human or AI result with 50% probability for each. N1 I targeted Haddock and nothing happened.

I have no memory of this character. Someone else who has read the books, remind me?

This seems like kind of a weird fake claim for faust to have given a scum player. Unless faust designed the set-up semi-randomly and just used unused power roles for fake claims.

The only way I could see to corroborate this is if someone came forward and said they targeted LL with something last night. I don't know if that's a good idea though, since such a claim might help scum direct their next shot (even if said player doesn't specify what they targeted LL with, which I think it goes without saying they should not.)

We still have five days, lets take our time and get this right.
This is a townish response to Lalight's fakeclaim imo.

Note this post:

Glooble, who do you think the scum faction are?


Probably the rogue faction of Anander Miannani, and the town-aligned faction of Anander Miannani is the one Breq is working for in the books.


The aliens wouldn't make much sense as scum. They're not the primary antagonists of the story. The translators are basically good guys, though their presence complicates things for Breq.
and the use of "good guys" to refer to flavour.



Eh, I guess it doesn't hurt to weigh in on the LL wagon. I think the wagon is of very low utility and the lynch should happen later in the game if at all, instead of now. If LL is telling the truth, scum isn't going to be opposed to his lynch. If he is scum and he messed up his fakeclaim, scum isn't going to be opposed to his lynch either. Either way, we don't get any useful wagon analysis out of it.

I don't follow your logic at all.

If she's scum, scum want her to survive because that's how they win. If the other scum aren't defending her its because they think there's more utility in earning town points by being on the scum wagon.

If she does end up town, then I think she's just as informative as any other lynch, plus we're not losing a power that has any utility to town, plus her alignment was probably going to change anyway which likely would have been bad for town.
Very towny post


CONTINUES to drive the LL wagon even at the risk of setting herself up against Awaclus.


Oh and then this post:
So in the process of trying to write this post I think I've convinced myself that Awaclus is probably scum. I know this contradicts what I just stated, but I've had a bit of a breakthrough.

Scenario 1: LL is scum. Awaclus is also scum and is trying to forestall LLs lynch one night. Maybe to give LL a chance to use a 1-shot power? Maybe in the hopes that night 2 will give info that will allow her to push an alternate lynch. This is the scenario I've been leaning towards.

Scenario 2:  Awaclus is town, does not know LL's alignment, and honestly believes the fuzzy logic she's been expounding about LL's lynch not being informative.

Scenario 3: LL is town. Awaclus is scum, and knows LL is town, and wants to get town points for looking like she's trying to stop a town lynch.

Having laid this out, scenario two feels like far and away the least likely to me. Awaclus's behavior looks scummy to me regardless of LL's alignment.

I still really want to lynch LL.

But.

This is good too.

vote: Awaclus
Man, Glooble and I would get on irl I think, she expresses herself in a way that seems so natural to me.
Fully understanding the probabilistic arguments, nonetheless this is absolutely how I would have presented this data in this context and it just makes sense.
The context is a discussion of Awaclus's approach to the LL wagon.  In that context it 100% makes sense to lump the instances where Awaclus doesn't know LL's alignment together in one chunk.
I disagree with the Awaclus vote because it comes from a perspective of not understanding Awa's meta.  But, man, this post rings super towny to me.


And then the Lalight lynch happens, with Glooble back onwagon.
Hmm come to think of it the move off Lalight and then back on again could be perceived as scummy in isolation.  But the move to Awaclus felt so natural to me from the perspective of someone who doesn't know Awa very well.

Heck.

Next day.

Bold of us to assume “Radch-aligned” = the good guys, I suppose. Has a mod ever pulled this one before? Flavoring the game such that the protagonists of the source material are scum?

Of course Basnaaid was hardly a villain, so I guess it’s more nuanced than that.
Another contentious post.
What the hell, guys?  How can anyone misread this?  Glooble even says right there: "Flavoring the game such that the protagonists of the source material are scum" is the thing Glooble is commenting on.  Why oh why would anyone see scumminess here.


Then there's a bunch of fairly irrelevant stuff.

Continues to drive Awa's lynch, which is null or maybe slightly towny?  Hard to tell without knowing Awa's alignment.  I think scum would be more inclined to go along with several veteran players saying that you are misinterpreting Awa's meta.


From then on she's just being generally helpful and contributive, including giving a very good reason for WCD to be town, which could be planned I guess, but doesn't seem likely.




This reread was partly brought to you because I promised I would look at Glooble as a response to this post of Space's:
Rather than throwing shade for my attempts to articulate why Glooble's case was wrong, why not try scrutinising Glooble's decision to vote Awaclus over LL in the first place, given that he'd explicitly stated that he thought LL was scummy, then moved to Awa because of this case that evidently convinced him so unexpectedly, and then switched back to LL again apparently just because of the plurality lynch that's still 30+ hours out.
And, well, I've done that, and can't bring myself to see the move to Awa as particularly scummy.  Glooble started the LL wagon, and moved onto Awa in a natural way and then back again in a natural way. 

No, overall I still have a decent townread on Glooble.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: Haddock on February 02, 2019, 03:34:56 pm
My reads prior to epic rereads:

Moderate-to-strong scum:
mail-mi, Space

Weak scum:
WCD (yes am taking into account Glooble's very good point, but it isn't really enough on its own - I think we underestimate newish players at our peril),
ash (If I were to ignore e's result)

Null:
Awaclus, UoS,

Once-felt-scum-and-now-feels-town-so-kinda-null-but-not-really:
joth

Slight town:
e

Moderate town:
Glooble

My reads now are the same except mail-mi moves down a slot to "weak-to-moderate scum" (above WCD and ash)

and actually e has gotten scummier from some random snippets I've seen while rereading.  Say e is in the null category now.  e is one for me to reread next, but not right now.


Strong FoS: Space
I would vote but I don't want to put them at L-1 while they're VLA-for-the-evening.

Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Awaclus on February 02, 2019, 03:39:44 pm
Btw Glooble it would be great if you could put up some kind of tagline in your signature or your avatar-text, so players who wish to Ctrl+F for your posts can do so.  Ctrl-Fing for "Glooble" gets tons of false positives.

You can search for the post count. That doesn't always work perfectly, but in this case, it does.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: UmbrageOfSnow on February 02, 2019, 03:40:52 pm
Okay, I'm going to spend some time today getting back to this, starting now.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: UmbrageOfSnow on February 02, 2019, 03:42:38 pm
Yeah let's not hammer Space while she's away and some of us have barely had time to say anything.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Haddock on February 02, 2019, 03:43:38 pm
Btw Glooble it would be great if you could put up some kind of tagline in your signature or your avatar-text, so players who wish to Ctrl+F for your posts can do so.  Ctrl-Fing for "Glooble" gets tons of false positives.

You can search for the post count. That doesn't always work perfectly, but in this case, it does.
That's what I did.  But still.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: Glooble on February 02, 2019, 04:08:58 pm
I will figure out how to add a signature.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on February 02, 2019, 04:14:41 pm
I don’t like the Space wagon at all. I think she’s town and I trust her. Let’s definitely see what she has to say.

The folks on her are mail-mi, e, Glooble, and Joth. The last two votes I think are town, the first two are my most suspicious. I haven’t had time to go back and do a thorough reread, but L-2 on a weekend, five days before the day ends...I don’t like it. It feel hurried to me, and makes me feel like I don’t have time to go back and gather my thoughts.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: Awaclus on February 02, 2019, 04:15:44 pm
I will figure out how to add a signature.

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?action=profile;area=forumprofile
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 02, 2019, 04:21:41 pm
I don’t like the Space wagon at all. I think she’s town and I trust her. Let’s definitely see what she has to say.

I think the early wagoning is very important just in case ashersky wants to shoot someone today (if they even can). Much clearer than D1
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on February 02, 2019, 04:32:51 pm
Wow, e...it sure sounds like you’re encouraging her to shoot Space.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: Haddock on February 02, 2019, 04:34:00 pm
I don’t like the Space wagon at all. I think she’s town and I trust her. Let’s definitely see what she has to say.

The folks on her are mail-mi, e, Glooble, and Joth. The last two votes I think are town, the first two are my most suspicious. I haven’t had time to go back and do a thorough reread, but L-2 on a weekend, five days before the day ends...I don’t like it. It feel hurried to me, and makes me feel like I don’t have time to go back and gather my thoughts.
I would love to hear any reasons you have for finding space towny.

I mean that most sincerely, I'm struggling to see clearly here.

Also, I have just realised my mobile data is running extremely low and my flat Internet won't be up and running til Tuesday. So consider this a VLA post I guess? I can get WiFi in places to a not-great extent. And who knows my data might last. Just a warning.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: jotheonah on February 02, 2019, 05:28:59 pm
Argh.. thanks for not hammering right away :-/ I'm just home from the afternoon's rehearsals, and I'm expecting a friend for dinner and Netflix (yay, new Disco episode!) any minute now, but I think they'll be heading back before ~7pm forum time, so I'll be back then.

You must be Canadian.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: mail-mi on February 02, 2019, 05:38:52 pm
Argh.. thanks for not hammering right away :-/ I'm just home from the afternoon's rehearsals, and I'm expecting a friend for dinner and Netflix (yay, new Disco episode!) any minute now, but I think they'll be heading back before ~7pm forum time, so I'll be back then.

I don't like the sound of this post. It gives off a "you caught me, but let me come back and defend myself just in case" feeling to me.

i am now more comfortable with my vote.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on February 02, 2019, 07:53:49 pm
I'll get to me and claims and stuff in a minute, but this is something Joth said earlier which bothered me:

-early day 1 she pushed pretty hard for the mcmc lurker lynch. she also seems to be going out of her way in her long posts and not offend people. so, make everyone like you, push a lynch on the lurker who can't defend themselves or get into a fight with you=awesome day 1 scum strategy. #291 for ref also #306. I feel a little bad for this case because it's totally possible WCD is just a really nice person and I feel bad giving scum points for that but then, that's what makes it such a good plan.

Please consider for a moment that you may be describing having a scumread on WCS because she is displaying feminine characteristics.

Women are way more likely to defend people, to be supportive, and to try to be "likable" instead of attacking anyone. It's not being deceitful, it's a combination of being praised by society for displaying this behaviour -- making it deeply ingrained from a young age -- and being potentially physically in danger in real life for disagreeing vocally with other people if those people happen to be physically bigger, stronger and more aggressive than they are. It is apparently very hard for people who're read by others as male to observe that till it's explained by someone who experiences it.

Anyway, I suggestion this as an alternative narrative for WCD's behaviour, and I think fits at least as well as the scum narrative people seem to be ascribing.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: ashersky on February 02, 2019, 07:54:07 pm
Haddock making strong town vibes. SA or MM should be the lynch.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on February 02, 2019, 07:57:14 pm
Reasons I'm Conflicted About Space

Thank you.. that sounds a lot like me :-P
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on February 02, 2019, 08:09:40 pm
Here's some weird super-early something re Space:
Townread on space. I remember him usually doing all this setup and stuff like this as town

Or maybe it's just a spaceread on space.

Man, this is such a crappy wagon. Let's join a different one.

Vote: Galzria

ok vote: galzria
Like, either this is weeeeirrrddd hedgey white-knighting or it's scum trying to subliminally make people feel good about their partner.  Or it's just mail-mi being mail-mi, I dunno.  It's bizarre though, and I don't like it.  Like, really.  Surely everyone discusses the setup early in the game, there's nothing else to talk about.  How do you give townpoints for this?  Meh.

@Haddock, this quote from Mail-mi should be enough to tell you that he and I are not partners. You saw how badly past!Mail-mi's misgendering of me affected my play: you even had to step in and threaten penalties as a mod if he didn't show more consideration. You saw in person how distraught I was about it at the time, and you know it almost drove me off f.ds in the beginning. There is no way I wouldn't have set him straight right off the bat in a scum QT if there was one available.

@Mail-mi, I don't mean for this to sound like a personal attack. I know that you didn't really seem to have much experience to draw on with the issue of misgendering at the time, and that you're proportionally quite a lot older now that you've returned, so I do think you deserve a clean slate on this one now.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on February 02, 2019, 08:20:53 pm
Argh.. thanks for not hammering right away :-/ I'm just home from the afternoon's rehearsals, and I'm expecting a friend for dinner and Netflix (yay, new Disco episode!) any minute now, but I think they'll be heading back before ~7pm forum time, so I'll be back then.

I don't like the sound of this post. It gives off a "you caught me, but let me come back and defend myself just in case" feeling to me.

i am now more comfortable with my vote.

I have to say, I liked Joth's response to my post better, even though I don't quite follow what he means.

The actual correct interpretation of my post was "lots of interesting and potentially disastrous (for town!!) stuff is going on, but i have zero time to engage right now".

How would you have worded it? If I'd read the thread and posted nothing, someone may well have looked at when I'd been online, noted in-thread that I'd been in but hadn't posted, concluded I was guilty and staying quiet, and hammered. Since by that point I had read the thread and seen that people are voting for me, I had to post something. My day has been busy. I got home at 17.55 from a 3.5-hour outing to a rehearsal and home via a supermarket. I had a friend turning up at 18.00 for an evening of food and Netflix, and it wasn't a date, but this friend is still someone I'd feel guilty about not paying attention to for long enough to interact with a game. What wording would you prefer for me to use to indicate all that?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on February 02, 2019, 08:28:32 pm
Argh.. thanks for not hammering right away :-/ I'm just home from the afternoon's rehearsals, and I'm expecting a friend for dinner and Netflix (yay, new Disco episode!) any minute now, but I think they'll be heading back before ~7pm forum time, so I'll be back then.

You must be Canadian.

Scottish living in England, so I guess in general that's kind of being Canadian and living in the US?

(I assume your comment has something to do with episode schedules, but I'm not actually sure when they appear where!).
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: mail-mi on February 02, 2019, 08:30:39 pm
Here's some weird super-early something re Space:
Townread on space. I remember him usually doing all this setup and stuff like this as town

Or maybe it's just a spaceread on space.

Man, this is such a crappy wagon. Let's join a different one.

Vote: Galzria

ok vote: galzria
Like, either this is weeeeirrrddd hedgey white-knighting or it's scum trying to subliminally make people feel good about their partner.  Or it's just mail-mi being mail-mi, I dunno.  It's bizarre though, and I don't like it.  Like, really.  Surely everyone discusses the setup early in the game, there's nothing else to talk about.  How do you give townpoints for this?  Meh.

@Haddock, this quote from Mail-mi should be enough to tell you that he and I are not partners. You saw how badly past!Mail-mi's misgendering of me affected my play: you even had to step in and threaten penalties as a mod if he didn't show more consideration. You saw in person how distraught I was about it at the time, and you know it almost drove me off f.ds in the beginning. There is no way I wouldn't have set him straight right off the bat in a scum QT if there was one available.

@Mail-mi, I don't mean for this to sound like a personal attack. I know that you didn't really seem to have much experience to draw on with the issue of misgendering at the time, and that you're proportionally quite a lot older now that you've returned, so I do think you deserve a clean slate on this one now.

i want to apologize again for that, that was very inconsiderate of me at the time and it was at the beginning of the game too. also, thanks for the clean slate.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: mail-mi on February 02, 2019, 08:35:13 pm
Argh.. thanks for not hammering right away :-/ I'm just home from the afternoon's rehearsals, and I'm expecting a friend for dinner and Netflix (yay, new Disco episode!) any minute now, but I think they'll be heading back before ~7pm forum time, so I'll be back then.

I don't like the sound of this post. It gives off a "you caught me, but let me come back and defend myself just in case" feeling to me.

i am now more comfortable with my vote.

I have to say, I liked Joth's response to my post better, even though I don't quite follow what he means.

The actual correct interpretation of my post was "lots of interesting and potentially disastrous (for town!!) stuff is going on, but i have zero time to engage right now".

How would you have worded it? If I'd read the thread and posted nothing, someone may well have looked at when I'd been online, noted in-thread that I'd been in but hadn't posted, concluded I was guilty and staying quiet, and hammered. Since by that point I had read the thread and seen that people are voting for me, I had to post something. My day has been busy. I got home at 17.55 from a 3.5-hour outing to a rehearsal and home via a supermarket. I had a friend turning up at 18.00 for an evening of food and Netflix, and it wasn't a date, but this friend is still someone I'd feel guilty about not paying attention to for long enough to interact with a game. What wording would you prefer for me to use to indicate all that?

I honestly don't know. Even something like "I've been busy, please don't hammer, I have important things to say" would have sounded (read?) better, at least to my ears (eyes?). I was just talking about the first part of the post, not the second part where you explained why you were busy. (Scumreading you for being busy would be very hypocritical of me). "Argh... thanks for not hammering" sounds to me like "argh, you caught me... but don't kill me yet I have things to say."

It was a pretty minor thing in my scumread on you anyway.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on February 02, 2019, 09:00:18 pm
I'm about to do an automated vote count, but before I do, I should actually get my vote down:

Vote: Mail-mi

The Mail-mi factors I'm considering:
1. LL voted Mail-mi briefly early on before moving off quickly, which is a great way to break the how-to-interact-with-partners thing.
2. They were both on the joth wagon on D1. LL had just been scum with Joth in M120, so I can see him being keen on not having a recent scumbuddy in the game.
3. They did not interact on any of the same wagons D2 (MM was mostly on Joth, and LL on e).
4. Mail-mi defended LL's claim, asking what motivation scum!LL would have had for claiming that.

And the major one:

5. LL did vote for Mail-mi near the very end of D2, when WCD and I were seeing what would happen there. Importantly, there were perfect scum bus conditions in effect, and yet nobody (other than LL) moved from LL to MM when that wagon was in place, which suggests a fryingpan-fire sort of situation to me, where MM isn't actually the right wagon to coax scum off onto, because he's scum too.

Bonus fact: Mail-mi only put down one vote on D2, and it was on Joth. If people think I'm scummy for not having reached the point of voting for LL before he hammered himself, I feel that in order to be consistent, they should think that Mail-mi is even more scummy: he was clearly around online at the correct sort of time (unlike me), actively defending LL (unlike me), and not voting LL.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on February 02, 2019, 09:02:33 pm
Here's the space-count as of #1130:

Glooble (1): ashersky
jotheonah (1): Awaclus
mail-mi (2): Haddock, SpaceAnemone
SpaceAnemone (4): mail-mi, 2.71828....., Glooble, jotheonah
Not Voting (2): WestCoastDidds, UmbrageOfSnow
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: UmbrageOfSnow on February 02, 2019, 09:37:33 pm
I'm sorry everyone, I'm almost wondering if I shouldn't have agreed to sub in, I'm a bit sick, I've got a few other things to deal with and I've been distracting myself all day instead of powering through some of the stuff in this game.

I really don't want us to have a fast day, I want to get in here and contribute but honestly I've barely scratched this and I've been useless for the last like 2 hours and I should just go to bed.

Guess I shouldn't have picked on Robz
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: UmbrageOfSnow on February 02, 2019, 09:38:54 pm
Don't take this whining to mean I'm going to sub out, I am not, I will get to this, just not today like I promised. And tomorrow I've got some other things I have to take care of, but I should get at least some of the stuff read in here I need to.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on February 02, 2019, 09:43:48 pm
I don’t like the Space wagon at all. I think she’s town and I trust her. Let’s definitely see what she has to say.

The folks on her are mail-mi, e, Glooble, and Joth. The last two votes I think are town, the first two are my most suspicious. I haven’t had time to go back and do a thorough reread, but L-2 on a weekend, five days before the day ends...I don’t like it. It feel hurried to me, and makes me feel like I don’t have time to go back and gather my thoughts.
I would love to hear any reasons you have for finding space towny.

I mean that most sincerely, I'm struggling to see clearly here. 

I have found her to be incredibly consistent, and she has good reasons for the things that she’s done, especially in ways that help town. The votes on Mcmc were to encourage her to engage, and she was consistently challenging me on why I found lurking scummy. She was vocal about her LL suspicions, but used the time between when LL’s wagon was almost certain and when she was lynched to continue scumhuntibg. She explored Glooble’s positions in depth in her exchange with you, pointing out flaws in logic but still concluding she was towny. It would have been easy to use the math and logic language to confuse folks enough to put a vote there. She didn’t try to derail the LL lynch at all. The MM vote helped seal LL’s fate. Asher nailed it correctly as a Hail Mary, and LL must have seen his intake because he self-hammered.

I also find her willingness to engage in issues of gender both true to herself and towny. I’m not sure that as scum she’d want to be that confrontational. She challenged MM in misgendering, UoS on calling us ladies, and asking Joth to consider that my communication style might be more feminine than scummy...and in a masculine communication environment where different might be read as scum, noting that feminine patterns are the norm for some of us (me), is if use to town. If she was scum it would have been an easy way to push for me.

I just haven’t found her to be shifty or flighty at all, and more helpful than not helpful. So, town.

Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on February 02, 2019, 09:44:31 pm
Umbrage, I hope you feel better
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on February 02, 2019, 09:48:10 pm
Finishing that post, I’m even more convinced of Space’s towncred and note that the votes on her aren’t made of much. The scummiest on the Space wagon, to me, is MM.

Vote: mail-mi
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: mail-mi on February 02, 2019, 09:48:51 pm
I defended and did not vote for Lalight because I believed the claim. I was wrong--that doesn't make me scum. The only reasons I was considering voting for Lalight was because she would soon become not-town-aligned, NOT because I thought she was scum.

Space, on the other hand, did have a strong scum read on Lalight, even saying:

Sure, mail-mi is a would-lynch. I wondered where most of the scrutiny on him from D1 went, though I was voting him for much of that time anyway.

Vote: mail-mi

My main would-lynch is still LL.

I wouldn't lynch Awaclus at this point without a scummy flip from LL of a type that indicates LL was on a team with other scums.

...and yet never voted for Lalight, who was her "main would-lynch." Not putting her money where her mouth is, so to say.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: ashersky on February 02, 2019, 09:52:41 pm
vote: SA

I say we run them both up and see where it leads. I could do with a credible claim from SA at this point to bump me over to MM.

For context: SA is in-general scummy this game; Mail-mi has scummy bad claims / gameplay.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on February 02, 2019, 10:02:05 pm
As for claims, I'm at L-2, and as a few reasonable people have pointed out, we still have time before the deadline.

Let's go straight to the source of why I suspect I'm actually getting as much heat as I am. I know I was RBd (or something similar) on N1, because I tried targeting someone, and it wasn't successful. I expect that whoever blocked me saw that there was no NK, and drew an incorrect conclusion. This error will be obvious when I flip, but if another townie has a good explanation for the missing NK that they can give in-thread without revealing too much more than is already out there, then that could prevent a mislynch.

PPE 7 because I'm extremely unsure about what's useful to claim and what's too much and it's after 3am here!

Umbridge, get well soon!!
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 02, 2019, 10:04:34 pm
You are actually L-1 now, and I don't think that was the "credible claim" we were looking for.  Other than admitting that you were blocked so your kill didn't go through
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on February 02, 2019, 10:08:30 pm
vote: SA

I say we run them both up and see where it leads. I could do with a credible claim from SA at this point to bump me over to MM.

For context: SA is in-general scummy this game; Mail-mi has scummy bad claims / gameplay.

I'm accused of sounding scummy pretty much every game.

Also, is "run them both up" mean to imply equal pressure? Somehow you're putting me to unannounced L-1, while leaving Mail-mi on a mere L-3.

Lastly, UoS did ask just a handful of posts ago not to end the day so quickly, so I don't think you're helping him!

PPE: e
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 02, 2019, 10:11:28 pm
Also, the "dead jk targeted me N1" is just as convenient if not more so than mail-mi's cop claim
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on February 02, 2019, 10:15:41 pm

I know that DatSwan jailkept Space on N1 and Ashersky on N2.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on February 02, 2019, 10:20:57 pm
You are actually L-1 now, and I don't think that was the "credible claim" we were looking for.  Other than admitting that you were blocked so your kill didn't go through

I was at L-2 with UoS urging restraint when I actually wrote that, and got PPEd, as I said!

I guess by "credible claim" you're looking for something verifiable, in which case you're out of luck (or more likely I am), because that level of concrete evidence of alignment doesn't exist for me right now. What I do have is enough game evidence to have a strong hunch that someone has made a very sensible-looking but ultimately incorrect inference. And there could be town evidence to help unravel that, so the sensible thing for me to do here is to try and mediate that without outing anyone else's roles.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on February 02, 2019, 10:21:57 pm

I know that DatSwan jailkept Space on N1 and Ashersky on N2.

Um. How do you know it was Swan and not someone else? I think my result is consistent with being RBd as well as JKd.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 02, 2019, 10:24:55 pm
By "credible" I simply mean a claim. Any claim. Like role, what you do, is it x-shot, x-night, or standard every night?

Claiming "I was blocked" (even having it confirmed) doesn't do anything to convince me that you are town
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 02, 2019, 10:26:10 pm

I know that DatSwan jailkept Space on N1 and Ashersky on N2.

Um. How do you know it was Swan and not someone else? I think my result is consistent with being RBd as well as JKd.

JK does RB you though. It also protects you from the NK
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on February 02, 2019, 10:38:10 pm
By "credible" I simply mean a claim. Any claim. Like role, what you do, is it x-shot, x-night, or standard every night?

Claiming "I was blocked" (even having it confirmed) doesn't do anything to convince me that you are town

At L-2, I wanted to hold off because I wasn't expecting to get to L-1 so fast, especially with UoS specifically asking for the day not to end so quickly.

I don't foresee my claim satisfying you, so I may as well leave my role a mystery to scum, which ultimately helps town. That was certainly my logic when I wrote the first "claim" bit in the L-2 the post.

Now it's L-1, sure, I'll consider more. Though I'd like this thing with WCD to clear up a bit first. Also, it's ridiculously late in my timezone, and I can't afford to let me sleep pattern get any more skewed, so I have to go to bed and leave this till tomorrow. I will have time to be on then.

(@e, aren't you in the it's-just-past-0430 timezone??)
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on February 02, 2019, 10:43:11 pm

I know that DatSwan jailkept Space on N1 and Ashersky on N2.

Um. How do you know it was Swan and not someone else? I think my result is consistent with being RBd as well as JKd.

JK does RB you though. It also protects you from the NK

I know this, but I also already knew that WDC knew I didn't target someone N1 (for a reason I haven't claimed yet). The fact that she now says that she knows it was Swan is new information that doesn't quite fit with the rest of the thing I haven't yet claimed.

Anyway, I really have to go now. Maybe WCD can fill in some blanks while I'm away?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on February 02, 2019, 11:17:02 pm

My role allowed me to learn that DatSwan targeted Space on N1 and Ashersky on N2. Since she was a jailkeeper, that both protected and blocked them.

I already shared the Asher info earlier when we were talking about N2, but the Space info wasn’t relevant until now.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: jotheonah on February 02, 2019, 11:41:21 pm
Argh.. thanks for not hammering right away :-/ I'm just home from the afternoon's rehearsals, and I'm expecting a friend for dinner and Netflix (yay, new Disco episode!) any minute now, but I think they'll be heading back before ~7pm forum time, so I'll be back then.

You must be Canadian.

Scottish living in England, so I guess in general that's kind of being Canadian and living in the US?

(I assume your comment has something to do with episode schedules, but I'm not actually sure when they appear where!).

In the US, Disco isn’t on Netflix. We have to watch it on CBS All Access. Idk why I went with Canada. I forgot that Everyone else in the world gets a better deal.

Re: your post about my post about WCD. I’m very sensitive to your point. But it is in the nature of the game to scrutinize everyone and consider how everyone might be scum. I don’t love to scumread someone for being nice — in fact, I like it when people are nice! But you can see how giving people a town pass for being nice would be a bad idea strategically.

Also, not caught up, just popping in.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: jotheonah on February 02, 2019, 11:49:55 pm
mail-mi, are you an AI?

I’m pretty stoked mail-mi lynch is back on the menu, but I’m not feeling great about how it’s happening. What do people think, theoretically, about a Space-WCD team?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: mail-mi on February 03, 2019, 12:09:15 am
mail-mi, are you an AI?

I’m pretty stoked mail-mi lynch is back on the menu, but I’m not feeling great about how it’s happening. What do people think, theoretically, about a Space-WCD team?

Why should I answer this?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: jotheonah on February 03, 2019, 12:16:21 am
mail-mi, are you an AI?

I’m pretty stoked mail-mi lynch is back on the menu, but I’m not feeling great about how it’s happening. What do people think, theoretically, about a Space-WCD team?

Why should I answer this?

Why should I answer your question about why you should answer my question?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: mail-mi on February 03, 2019, 12:38:46 am
mail-mi, are you an AI?

I’m pretty stoked mail-mi lynch is back on the menu, but I’m not feeling great about how it’s happening. What do people think, theoretically, about a Space-WCD team?

Why should I answer this?

Why should I answer your question about why you should answer my question?

Because I don't know if that's information that I should share quite yet. It's probably important to the set up.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 03, 2019, 02:15:31 am
(@e, aren't you in the it's-just-past-0430 timezone??)

Yeah, I had gone to bed, but woke up with a stuffed up nose needing to sit upright to get it to drain some.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 03, 2019, 02:30:40 am
Also, if claims are happening by people other than Space, my preferred order is:

Space
Mail-mi
Others

Just because things are confusing for space because of what they know doesn't mean they just get a pass to claim last. That's not how this works
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: faust on February 03, 2019, 02:32:59 am
Vote Count 3.3

jotheonah (1): Awaclus
mail-mi (3): Haddock, SpaceAnemonae, WestCoastDidds
SpaceAnemone (5): mail-mi, 2.71828....., Glooble, jotheonah, ashersky

Not Voting (1): UmbrageOfSnow

With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch. Day 3 ends on February 07, 2019, 01:00:00 am.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: ashersky on February 03, 2019, 03:42:06 am
SA’s reaction to being at L1 is not towny. Continually pointing to “random other player doesn’t want the day to end too soon” is such a non-reason for anything. 

Plus, no NK and SA was jailed?  That’s also a thing.

And refusal to claim “to keep the info from scum” is not towny. 

All in all, hammer time.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: Haddock on February 03, 2019, 03:54:30 am
Here's some weird super-early something re Space:
Townread on space. I remember him usually doing all this setup and stuff like this as town

Or maybe it's just a spaceread on space.

Man, this is such a crappy wagon. Let's join a different one.

Vote: Galzria

ok vote: galzria
Like, either this is weeeeirrrddd hedgey white-knighting or it's scum trying to subliminally make people feel good about their partner.  Or it's just mail-mi being mail-mi, I dunno.  It's bizarre though, and I don't like it.  Like, really.  Surely everyone discusses the setup early in the game, there's nothing else to talk about.  How do you give townpoints for this?  Meh.

@Haddock, this quote from Mail-mi should be enough to tell you that he and I are not partners. You saw how badly past!Mail-mi's misgendering of me affected my play: you even had to step in and threaten penalties as a mod if he didn't show more consideration. You saw in person how distraught I was about it at the time, and you know it almost drove me off f.ds in the beginning. There is no way I wouldn't have set him straight right off the bat in a scum QT if there was one available.
This is interesting:
I remember him usually doing all this setup and stuff like this as town

Okay, let's get this out of the way: I AM NOT, AND NEVER HAVE BEEN, A "HE"!!! Sorry for being shouty, but while you've been gone, the whole forum has got a lot more progressive about respecting people's gender presentation and pronouns, and I'd really like to keep that progress!

My preferred pronoun is they/them, and it's even in my sig line to help people remember. I'll settle for she/her in general, and especially for this game, since it's very in keeping for the flavour.
WOOPS sorry about that.

Townread on space, I remember her doing this setup stuff as town
I would be willing to exclude the possibility of both mail-mi and Space being scum based on this interaction alone.  If they have a shared QT then mail-mi already knows Space's gender.  And I don't see scum!Space being willing to fake something like this.
Did you read my posts?
I don't believe both you and mail-mi can be scum.
But I do think one of you is likely to be.

Your points re mail-mi have also already been covered by others. We agree that mail-mi is scummy. Trouble is you're scummy too.

I don’t like the Space wagon at all. I think she’s town and I trust her. Let’s definitely see what she has to say.

The folks on her are mail-mi, e, Glooble, and Joth. The last two votes I think are town, the first two are my most suspicious. I haven’t had time to go back and do a thorough reread, but L-2 on a weekend, five days before the day ends...I don’t like it. It feel hurried to me, and makes me feel like I don’t have time to go back and gather my thoughts.
I would love to hear any reasons you have for finding space towny.

I mean that most sincerely, I'm struggling to see clearly here. 

I have found her to be incredibly consistent, and she has good reasons for the things that she’s done, especially in ways that help town. The votes on Mcmc were to encourage her to engage, and she was consistently challenging me on why I found lurking scummy. She was vocal about her LL suspicions, but used the time between when LL’s wagon was almost certain and when she was lynched to continue scumhuntibg. She explored Glooble’s positions in depth in her exchange with you, pointing out flaws in logic but still concluding she was towny. It would have been easy to use the math and logic language to confuse folks enough to put a vote there. She didn’t try to derail the LL lynch at all. The MM vote helped seal LL’s fate. Asher nailed it correctly as a Hail Mary, and LL must have seen his intake because he self-hammered.

I also find her willingness to engage in issues of gender both true to herself and towny. I’m not sure that as scum she’d want to be that confrontational. She challenged MM in misgendering, UoS on calling us ladies, and asking Joth to consider that my communication style might be more feminine than scummy...and in a masculine communication environment where different might be read as scum, noting that feminine patterns are the norm for some of us (me), is if use to town. If she was scum it would have been an easy way to push for me.

I just haven’t found her to be shifty or flighty at all, and more helpful than not helpful. So, town.
Mmm. This helps, but consistency and helpfulness are not town traits. Especially not for Space.

Also, claiming to have a scum read on LL, but not voting, is arguably scummier than just claiming a town read. This is one of the big points driving space's lynch. You said that the votes on space aren't made of much, so I guess you disagree on that in particular?



Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: Haddock on February 03, 2019, 03:58:54 am
I'm not going to hammer yet.
Space isn't saying they won't claim, just that they want to think about it. We have plenty of time. I want to give them the opportunity to claim fully.

The claim doesn't look great.
I want to note for posterity the oddness with WCD. Like, WCD only announced that space was blocked after space claimed to have been blocked?
A) why wouldn't WCD bring that up earlier? It obviously points to space being scum.
B) it feels like something the two of them have cooked up, but that makes no sense whatsoever; surely the two of them would know that this was going to make space look worse, not better.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: Haddock on February 03, 2019, 07:05:50 am
Crickets.
Anything, anyone?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: Haddock on February 03, 2019, 07:30:11 am
I guess I'll respond to joth's thought about a potential space-wcd team.
I am not excluding it. Indeed I have had similar thoughts. They have been defending each other more than I would tend to expect from two townies.

However:
A) let's not start trying to tie together 2 people as scum when we don't know the alignment of either of them.
B) while I find space scummy I don't find wcd particularly scummy.
C) I can definitely see this kind of defensiveness arising between two players on the basis of the sorts of things space has talked about; namely gender stuff. Tbey are two players who have both been found scummy at one time or another for their occasional feminine-coded behaviour. (to be clear I do not think that that is why I am finding either of them at all scummy this game, but it is something that has been discussed in the past)
That kind of shared experience of bias could definitely cause them to band together more than they might otherwise, regardless of their alignments.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: Glooble on February 03, 2019, 07:38:00 am
I just woke up.

I don’t think a quick hammer here helps anyone, and ash’s pushing for it makes me nervous, especially since ash could (presumably) just shoot her if she felt so strongly but instead she’s trying to get someone to hammer.

I have a suspicion about why ash is acting this way, but I’m not sure it’s pro-town to share it at this time.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: Glooble on February 03, 2019, 07:40:07 am
I also agree with e that if we’re claiming, Space should go first.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on February 03, 2019, 07:51:37 am
Good morning!

Haddock- I will try to address the percieved oddness in my play. My timing of sharing the information I had about her from N1....it hadn’t come up today. She hadn’t said anything about thwarted attempts, nor has anyone else said much about night ations being blocked, etc. We have talked very little about DatSwan being a jailkeeper. In fact, I might be one of the only people who mentioned it in my first post today....that one that motivated people the find me scummy.

When I shared the DatSwan info about Ashes, it set off a conversation about not claiming yet. So, it certainly seemed like no one thought it was a good time to keep sharing information and there was no reason to add additional information at that time.

As to being something we cooked up....yeah, no. If we were working in concert, I don’t think we’d have made the moves that both of us are having to defend ourselves for (the LL wagon). It doesn’t make any sense. I also don’t know why it would help me at all to share information that can’t be verified. I already feel super vulnerable as a result and am worried about sharing too much. Also, Space didn’t know that I was aware she was JK’ed. I suppose that she has worked out now how that information became known to me.

I’ll wait to share more until she has had a chance to say her piece, but hammering her is a mistake. And her wagon deserves scrutiny, the quick ramp up and unannounced L-1 late on a Saturday are yuck, yuck, yucky.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: Glooble on February 03, 2019, 07:58:19 am
By "credible" I simply mean a claim. Any claim. Like role, what you do, is it x-shot, x-night, or standard every night?

Claiming "I was blocked" (even having it confirmed) doesn't do anything to convince me that you are town

I don't foresee my claim satisfying you, so I may as well leave my role a mystery to scum, which ultimately helps town. That was certainly my logic when I wrote the first "claim" bit in the L-2 the post.


I don’t understand what you’re saying here. If we lynch you, everyone finds out your role anyway . Why not tell us now when it could save you as opposed to letting us find out when it’s too late. You don’t know what information everyone in the town has. How can you know that claiming won’t exonerate you?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: Glooble on February 03, 2019, 08:01:49 am
unvote for now because I don’t want a hammer to fall before Space gives us more info, and also for reasons I’d rather not share atm.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: Haddock on February 03, 2019, 08:07:36 am
Good morning!

Haddock- I will try to address the percieved oddness in my play. My timing of sharing the information I had about her from N1....it hadn’t come up today. She hadn’t said anything about thwarted attempts, nor has anyone else said much about night ations being blocked, etc. We have talked very little about DatSwan being a jailkeeper. In fact, I might be one of the only people who mentioned it in my first post today....that one that motivated people the find me scummy.

When I shared the DatSwan info about Ashes, it set off a conversation about not claiming yet. So, it certainly seemed like no one thought it was a good time to keep sharing information and there was no reason to add additional information at that time.

As to being something we cooked up....yeah, no. If we were working in concert, I don’t think we’d have made the moves that both of us are having to defend ourselves for (the LL wagon). It doesn’t make any sense. I also don’t know why it would help me at all to share information that can’t be verified. I already feel super vulnerable as a result and am worried about sharing too much. Also, Space didn’t know that I was aware she was JK’ed. I suppose that she has worked out now how that information became known to me.

I’ll wait to share more until she has had a chance to say her piece, but hammering her is a mistake. And her wagon deserves scrutiny, the quick ramp up and unannounced L-1 late on a Saturday are yuck, yuck, yucky.
This is a good post.

But unfortunately you explaining your motivations, while helpful, doesn't really deal with the fact that you only made this claim, corroborating Space's story about being blocked, after space claimed that. You have to see why that looks slightly fishy; and no amount of explaining your motivations can really help with that.

But I still think that in spite of my gut it is unlikely that the two of you are acting together, see my previous post.


Direct question for you, WCD, which your post doesn't really address: when space was blocked n1 and then there was no night kill, why did this not arouse your suspicions? It really should have. Can you explain now why that fact isn't making you feel scummy about space? Or do you have such a strong town read that you feel it overrides this?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on February 03, 2019, 08:09:20 am
Joth— why do you think MM might be an AI? Why does that matter?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on February 03, 2019, 08:19:09 am
Direct question for you, WCD, which your post doesn't really address: when space was blocked n1 and then there was no night kill, why did this not arouse your suspicions? It really should have. Can you explain now why that fact isn't making you feel scummy about space? Or do you have such a strong town read that you feel it overrides this?

Some of this is a timing thing....I wasn’t always aware of the value of the information when I had it. And some of it is honest to goodness newb understanding....I didnt actually know what jailkeeping was. I was more focused on the part where she couldn’t be killed than the part where she was blocked. I assumed that there was no NK on N1 because she had been kept safe from the kill.

If we were acting together, you can be sure that I’d be taking direction and we both know that Space is too smart me direct me to do dumb stuff. She’d also have made sure that I actually knew what I knew and likely what to do with that information.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: Haddock on February 03, 2019, 08:33:34 am
Direct question for you, WCD, which your post doesn't really address: when space was blocked n1 and then there was no night kill, why did this not arouse your suspicions? It really should have. Can you explain now why that fact isn't making you feel scummy about space? Or do you have such a strong town read that you feel it overrides this?

Some of this is a timing thing....I wasn’t always aware of the value of the information when I had it. And some of it is honest to goodness newb understanding....I didnt actually know what jailkeeping was. I was more focused on the part where she couldn’t be killed than the part where she was blocked. I assumed that there was no NK on N1 because she had been kept safe from the kill.

If we were acting together, you can be sure that I’d be taking direction and we both know that Space is too smart me direct me to do dumb stuff. She’d also have made sure that I actually knew what I knew and likely what to do with that information.
Hmm.
Conversely I admit I had forgotten that JKing is just as likely to protect someone from a kill as to stop them from performing a kill.

I still want a claim from Space.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on February 03, 2019, 08:37:18 am
Hmm.
Conversely I admit I had forgotten that JKing is just as likely to protect someone from a kill as to stop them from performing a kill.

Thank you for not making me feel like a dummy!
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: ashersky on February 03, 2019, 09:34:42 am
vote: Glooble/b]
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: ashersky on February 03, 2019, 09:37:42 am
Oh, and also, it is very difficult to imagine a situation where town dying is better than scum hearing a town player’s claim. SA refusing to claim under those pretenses is scummy or misguided, and I think all agree SA is too intelligent to be the latter.

In case it didn’t work, vote: Glooble.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: Glooble on February 03, 2019, 09:53:26 am
Oh, and also, it is very difficult to imagine a situation where town dying is better than scum hearing a town player’s claim. SA refusing to claim under those pretenses is scummy or misguided, and I think all agree SA is too intelligent to be the latter.

In case it didn’t work, vote: Glooble.

I am confused. You are voting for me for... agreeing with you? I literally said exactly what you just said to Space.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on February 03, 2019, 10:16:07 am
Okay, full claim from me first, then the actual interesting stuff in a following post.

I'm Fosyf Denche, the wealthy land-owner. I'm Radch-aligned, and I have an x-shot power called Political Understanding, which is a modified voyeur. I get the names of any actions that target my target player that night, but in return that player is rendered invisible to certain other investigative actions that I still don't have a categorical understanding of. I've checked that I can't self-target, which is important for later.

N1 I targeted e, and got no result. This is consistent with WCD's original assertion.

N2 I targeted Glooble, and the result was that there were no Glooble-targeting actions to report. (Paraphrasing this quite a bit, but I know it was distinct to the response I got on e).

I've tried to pick townie-to-null targets so as not to interfere with other townie investigations, but not the most super-towny, because observing the NK is of limited utility.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on February 03, 2019, 10:22:35 am
Now the interesting part, because stuff with WCD is adding up less and less.

WCD opened a QT with me that lasted over the course of D2.

In that QT, her description of her role made sense to me, but does not now line up with what she's saying in the thread here.

I want to say more, but I'm going to run stuff past faust in case reporting what WCD told me comes too close to the quoting rule.

Needless to say, the attempt at getting better wagon analysis near the end of the day was a coordinated effort by the two of us, at my suggestion.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: jotheonah on February 03, 2019, 10:27:17 am
ash, I don’t understand why you moved your vote there either.

Space, that’s really interesting. Doesn’t really explain why you didn’t want to claim though? And doesn’t really affect my willingness to lynch you.

Mail-mi, I can’t answr your question without making it a moot point. Sorry. If you don’t want to share I guess that’s fine. At this point I think knowing the AI-ness and not Ai-ness of any given player would be very helpful and protown for me, but I can’t guarantee that having that info out in the open wouldn’t be good for scum.

PPE: Your second post. Ok. unvote. I’m into this.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: jotheonah on February 03, 2019, 10:28:30 am
FYI: Glooble will be at my house for an MtG draft from about 1 to 6 forum time. So I assume we won’t be on here (and of course won’t discuss the game).
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on February 03, 2019, 10:31:02 am
I can verify that I opened a QT with Space D2 and that we talked throughout the day. I had a QT with Swan N2. This is how I know who he targeted and why I wasn’t able to tell Space that she had been JK’ed until today. I would have a QT with Swan today if he had not been killed.

I can have a QT with one person at a time. I have chosen people that I know and who I think are town to talk with because I am Radch-aligned and hope to maximize our chance of success.

I believe that there is probably someone else who is town who has this ability.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on February 03, 2019, 10:33:25 am
Joth, can you tell me why it helps to know AI matters?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on February 03, 2019, 10:48:13 am
I can verify that I opened a QT with Space D2 and that we talked throughout the day. I had a QT with Swan N2. This is how I know who he targeted and why I wasn’t able to tell Space that she had been JK’ed until today. I would have a QT with Swan today if he had not been killed.

I can have a QT with one person at a time. I have chosen people that I know and who I think are town to talk with because I am Radch-aligned and hope to maximize our chance of success.

I believe that there is probably someone else who is town who has this ability.

Oh yeah, I did not have a QT on N1 because the day ended before I submitted a target.
So N1= no one
D2 = Space
N2= Swan
D2= Swan
 
I think that LL was an AI because Breq was. So, I’m asking about why the AI status matters.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on February 03, 2019, 10:50:03 am
@WCD, why did you re-target Swan?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on February 03, 2019, 10:50:36 am
Space knows a couple of other details about my role, but I’m not sure if I should share or no. Space, what do you think?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: jotheonah on February 03, 2019, 10:51:55 am
Joth, can you tell me why it helps to know AI matters?

My role is potentially useful in both protective and destructive ways but only works on one subset of AI or non-AI. I won’t say which one because WIFOM.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on February 03, 2019, 10:54:27 am
@WCD, why did you re-target Swan?

She suggested that I should. She did not see the message about the QT until we were 24 or so hours into the night, so we started off a bit behind and she had lots of good ideas about how we could leverage a 3 person town-team (Space, Swan, Didds) to good effect. And, as you know, I was nervous about targeting someone to talk that might not be town. I knew that Swan was town when he told me about his role.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: Haddock on February 03, 2019, 10:55:10 am
This recent news explains a lot.
It also makes wcd look townier to me.

I'm not sure it does a whole lot to make space look townier.
Some, but not a whole lot. I will wait to see what they have to say regarding the qt contents.

I'd also like to know what they mean by "attempt at getting better wagon analysis". What was the plan there?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on February 03, 2019, 11:01:08 am
Space knows a couple of other details about my role, but I’m not sure if I should share or no. Space, what do you think?

Haha.. forgive me for getting super-paranoid from up here on the block, but yes, you did tell me some stuff, and it got me very worried because you appeared to contradict it with what you said about Swan! That's what I wanted to talk about in the QT stuff I was/am going to post.

However, all but the initial mystery of it would be explained by you re-targeting Swan for D3 after talking D2. I didn't consider that as an option enough because I think I'd have wanted to keep picking new targets for a bit longer first.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on February 03, 2019, 11:02:02 am
This recent news explains a lot.
It also makes wcd look townier to me.

I'm not sure it does a whole lot to make space look townier.
Some, but not a whole lot. I will wait to see what they have to say regarding the qt contents.

I'd also like to know what they mean by "attempt at getting better wagon analysis". What was the plan there?

The wagon analysis is what we have both said elsewhere. We tried to create an alternate wagon out of nowhere, and then both got on it thinking that whoever else got on it were likely scum. LL did, so we were right.

We were going to try to make it a fairly towny player...Glooble was our idea, but when Space started working that angle you were not having it and she got caught in her own logic. So, I went with MM. At the time, I found him null (as did Space, I think) which was the point. Now I think he is scummy.

Swan was not as invested in Space as I was. I feel like our interaction over the course of the week was towny.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on February 03, 2019, 11:05:02 am
Space knows a couple of other details about my role, but I’m not sure if I should share or no. Space, what do you think?

Haha.. forgive me for getting super-paranoid from up here on the block, but yes, you did tell me some stuff, and it got me very worried because you appeared to contradict it with what you said about Swan! That's what I wanted to talk about in the QT stuff I was/am going to post.

However, all but the initial mystery of it would be explained by you re-targeting Swan for D3 after talking D2. I didn't consider that as an option enough because I think I'd have wanted to keep picking new targets for a bit longer first.

Yes, I figured you were a bit freaked out on the block. I tried to word my information carefully to help you figure it out...I “learned” that you had been JK’ed.

Feel free to share whatever from the QT that is allowed.

Swan thought I should bring exactly one more player onto the team and had some good reasons why...4 being the critical mass of folks of being able to win.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: Glooble on February 03, 2019, 11:20:48 am
vote: ashersky

We’ve been excusing a lot of blatantly anti-town behavior because of a cop claim (which could be faked in multiple ways) and setup WIFOM.  But none of that excuses pushing for a quick lynch when we still have three days until the deadline. If ash had another shot she would have fired it by now. She’s contributed minimally in terms of scumhunting or starting wagons, instead coming in on already established ones or voting for me for nonsensical reasons.

Well at this point I’m more of an IC than ash is. I started the LL lynch and you can’t argue a scum would do that.

I’m a lot less certain about Space after these claims, but I’m a lot more certain about ash after her attempts to prevent them.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on February 03, 2019, 11:24:03 am
I'd also like to know what they mean by "attempt at getting better wagon analysis". What was the plan there?

Here's a space-count at the end of #844:
jotheonah (1): mail-mi
LaLight (1): Haddock
2.71828..... (1): LaLight
DatSwan (2): Awaclus, 2.71828.....
Awaclus (4): hypercube, jotheonah, DatSwan, Glooble
Not Voting (4): SpaceAnemone, WestCoastDidds, Robz, ashersky

Glooble had just voted Awaclus, but WCD and I weren't fans of that wagon. She'd just said so in-thread a couple of posts earlier, and I thought it would be great to coordinate something while we were both obviously online, though then there was a bit of a day

This is a useless set of wagons to try to draw conclusions on. You have to imagine that in my view I have a green colour on me, WCD and Hyper. I wanted to get a lot of green players onto one as-yet-unknown name, and then see who else joined. If there's a wagon like:
Person1 (4): SpaceAnemone, WestCoastDidds, Person2, Person3

Then I can create a bit of a (soft) constraint that probably Peron2&Person3 are not scum together (though it happens sometimes), and that if Person2 is town, it's very unlikely that Person1 and Person3 are the same faction, just because of how people tend to play.

I caught you and faust out one time (probably well over a year ago now, I guess?) using exactly this technique: it's super-rare to have a town-on-town wagon with five votes, and moderately rare for there to be one with four town-on-town votes, so it's a good way to look for scum in sets of people. It's not always right, but I can build up lots of sets of constraints, across all the wagons in the game, and look for which people appear more likely than others to be scum.. but I need the people who flip town (or who I trust a long way to be town) to be on some wagons and not just "not voting".
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 03, 2019, 12:30:37 pm
vote: ashersky

We’ve been excusing a lot of blatantly anti-town behavior because of a cop claim (which could be faked in multiple ways) and setup WIFOM.  But none of that excuses pushing for a quick lynch when we still have three days until the deadline. If ash had another shot she would have fired it by now. She’s contributed minimally in terms of scumhunting or starting wagons, instead coming in on already established ones or voting for me for nonsensical reasons.

Well at this point I’m more of an IC than ash is. I started the LL lynch and you can’t argue a scum would do that.

I’m a lot less certain about Space after these claims, but I’m a lot more certain about ash after her attempts to prevent them.

This comes across very scummy.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 03, 2019, 12:31:33 pm
also, unvote for now in light of Space's claim.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: Glooble on February 03, 2019, 12:41:17 pm
vote: ashersky

We’ve been excusing a lot of blatantly anti-town behavior because of a cop claim (which could be faked in multiple ways) and setup WIFOM.  But none of that excuses pushing for a quick lynch when we still have three days until the deadline. If ash had another shot she would have fired it by now. She’s contributed minimally in terms of scumhunting or starting wagons, instead coming in on already established ones or voting for me for nonsensical reasons.

Well at this point I’m more of an IC than ash is. I started the LL lynch and you can’t argue a scum would do that.

I’m a lot less certain about Space after these claims, but I’m a lot more certain about ash after her attempts to prevent them.

This comes across very scummy.

Scummier than ash’s vote on me?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 03, 2019, 12:48:13 pm
vote: ashersky

We’ve been excusing a lot of blatantly anti-town behavior because of a cop claim (which could be faked in multiple ways) and setup WIFOM.  But none of that excuses pushing for a quick lynch when we still have three days until the deadline. If ash had another shot she would have fired it by now. She’s contributed minimally in terms of scumhunting or starting wagons, instead coming in on already established ones or voting for me for nonsensical reasons.

Well at this point I’m more of an IC than ash is. I started the LL lynch and you can’t argue a scum would do that.

I’m a lot less certain about Space after these claims, but I’m a lot more certain about ash after her attempts to prevent them.

This comes across very scummy.

Scummier than ash’s vote on me?

well, I know Ashersky is town, I don't know that you are.  I think you are though, so thats nice.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 03, 2019, 12:50:51 pm
vote: WCD

Space, why do you think WCD is town?  Because they opened a qt with you?  I guess they shared their power which made you believe they are town?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: Glooble on February 03, 2019, 12:51:14 pm
I am going offline for the next six hours, but I just want to say I’m done giving ash a free pass when she acts scummy as hell. Investigative roles can be faked. If ash shoots me while I’m gone (I doubt she will because I don’t think she has another shot) but if she does I hope you’ll seriously consider lynching her.

Really, seriously getting offline until at least 6 now.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on February 03, 2019, 12:58:38 pm
vote: WCD

Space, why do you think WCD is town?  Because they opened a qt with you?  I guess they shared their power which made you believe they are town?

E, can you help me understand? Is it common that scum to have QT conversations with town folk? Wouldn’t that give scum too I have power? I had to tell both Space and Swan quite a bit about my role to explain why we were chatting, but I hadn’t considered that it could be a scummy power. (Honest questions...I’m really trying to learn.)
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: Haddock on February 03, 2019, 01:02:52 pm
This recent news explains a lot.
It also makes wcd look townier to me.

I'm not sure it does a whole lot to make space look townier.
Some, but not a whole lot. I will wait to see what they have to say regarding the qt contents.

I'd also like to know what they mean by "attempt at getting better wagon analysis". What was the plan there?

The wagon analysis is what we have both said elsewhere. We tried to create an alternate wagon out of nowhere, and then both got on it thinking that whoever else got on it were likely scum. LL did, so we were right.

We were going to try to make it a fairly towny player...Glooble was our idea, but when Space started working that angle you were not having it and she got caught in her own logic. So, I went with MM. At the time, I found him null (as did Space, I think) which was the point. Now I think he is scummy.

Swan was not as invested in Space as I was. I feel like our interaction over the course of the week was towny.
OK that makes tons and tons of sense.
As does space's explanation.
That'll do me, I'm sticking with mail-mi for now.

Glooble, what is blatantly antitown about ash's play?


PPE. Giving scum a means of qt forming with town is a thing that people often talk about but I'm not sure I've ever actually seen. You could definitely imagine a scenario where a scum player has that role as a power to give them extra influence over town.  And I don't think it would be overpowered. Just a bit weird.
In any case I am giving you town points for it.
And your joint explanation of your wagon behaviour yesterday is good enough for me.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 03, 2019, 01:12:57 pm
vote: WCD

Space, why do you think WCD is town?  Because they opened a qt with you?  I guess they shared their power which made you believe they are town?

E, can you help me understand? Is it common that scum to have QT conversations with town folk? Wouldn’t that give scum too I have power? I had to tell both Space and Swan quite a bit about my role to explain why we were chatting, but I hadn’t considered that it could be a scummy power. (Honest questions...I’m really trying to learn.)

Creating a neighborhood is different than being masons.  There is no mod-confirmation of town to anyone involved.  Plus, given that this is RMM I would further argue that one must be very careful to argue that you have a "scummy" or "townie" power.  I was a town thief once and after claiming was lynched by an all town wagon because I had a "scummy" power (partially - I probably played super scummy too).
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on February 03, 2019, 01:41:36 pm
Thanks, y'all.  I appreciate the insight.  I'm mos def town and have used my power to help town. I think if I had denied everything and left Space hanging, she'd have been lynched. I didn't do that and I further provided information about Swan that no one else had access to and would have died with him, had scum had their way.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: mail-mi on February 03, 2019, 03:21:04 pm
So I believe Space... but that doesn't make me think that she is not scum. I think her role could easily be a scum power.

conspiracy theory: WCD and Space are partners and used WCD's power to have daychat. They then worked together to not get their partner LL lynched by turning it on me. Do I believe this theory? Maybe. I would have to reread day 2 to see exactly when wagons started forming up.

Also there's this:

You have to imagine that in my view I have a green colour on me, WCD and Hyper. I wanted to get a lot of green players onto one as-yet-unknown name, and then see who else joined.

Important part bolded. According to WCD's own description of her power thus far, Space has no idea whether WCD is town or not. She may believe that WCD is town, but she doesn't know for certain. Scumslip? Again, maybe. I'm not sure though.

Also important is the fact that Space was, indeed, roleblocked on N1. Since it was a JK, she could have been the target for the NK, but I think it's more likely that she was performing the night kill and was blocked.

Also what's going on with Glooble and Ashersky? I mean we haven't had anything come up that disagrees with e's cop claim. Also I just find it unlikely that there is a scum dayvig that was double hated if she killed town and was somehow lynchproof at the same time. Seems too powerful (though the double hated for killing town may balance out at least the davig part of it). I think that is town v town that are misreading each other.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: mail-mi on February 03, 2019, 03:21:45 pm
Oh, and also, it is very difficult to imagine a situation where town dying is better than scum hearing a town player’s claim. SA refusing to claim under those pretenses is scummy or misguided, and I think all agree SA is too intelligent to be the latter.

In case it didn’t work, vote: Glooble.

why did you stop voting for SA, then, when you said just a few post earlier that you want her to be hammered?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: mail-mi on February 03, 2019, 03:25:06 pm
I'm Fosyf Denche, the wealthy land-owner.

I just looked up Fosyf Denche on the Radch Wiki and I got nothing from the flavor other than the fact that she is a wealthy landowner. Flavor is flavor, but perhaps Faust only gave scum fakeclaims without flavor and SA went to look up the flavor name on the wiki to see what she could come up with? That's a stretch and most likely a moot point because trying to figure out a game based on flavor doesn't work very well.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: mail-mi on February 03, 2019, 03:29:20 pm
Mail-mi, I can’t answr your question without making it a moot point. Sorry. If you don’t want to share I guess that’s fine. At this point I think knowing the AI-ness and not Ai-ness of any given player would be very helpful and protown for me, but I can’t guarantee that having that info out in the open wouldn’t be good for scum.

I'm going to decline answering that for now, because it may end up being really good for scum if they know.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: mail-mi on February 03, 2019, 03:30:39 pm
I can verify that I opened a QT with Space D2 and that we talked throughout the day. I had a QT with Swan N2. This is how I know who he targeted and why I wasn’t able to tell Space that she had been JK’ed until today. I would have a QT with Swan today if he had not been killed.

I can have a QT with one person at a time. I have chosen people that I know and who I think are town to talk with because I am Radch-aligned and hope to maximize our chance of success.

I believe that there is probably someone else who is town who has this ability.

This is an extremely verifiable claim to make. I believe it. I also don't think it necessarily makes WCD town. But we should kill SA first.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: Haddock on February 03, 2019, 03:32:49 pm
OK here's the thing.
Wcd's power does not automatically make her town, but I believe the way it all fell out was towny.  So I lean town!Wcd.

Space is still not the towniest but the description of the wcd + space plan re the lalight wagon gives a very believable town narrative to that play, which was previously a strong reason for finding space scummy.

So I don't think I particularly want to lynch space any more today, and mail-mi shouldn't be asking Ash why he changed his vote, because the answer is clear, even if you don't personally believe that the claims are towny.

I think this:
 
So I believe Space... but that doesn't make me think that she is not scum. I think her role could easily be a scum power.

conspiracy theory: WCD and Space are partners and used WCD's power to have daychat . They then worked together to not get their partner LL lynched by turning it on me. Do I believe this theory? Maybe. I would have to reread day 2 to see exactly when wagons started forming up.
could be a scum slip.
Like, why would mail-mi assume that this potential-scum!Wcd's power even remotely resembles the one claimed?  Scum don't need daychat to orchestrate something like this. And they might have daychat anyway.
The answer: because mail-mi knows wcd has that power.

I like my vote more and more.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: mail-mi on February 03, 2019, 03:33:33 pm
@WCD, why did you re-target Swan?

She suggested that I should. She did not see the message about the QT until we were 24 or so hours into the night, so we started off a bit behind and she had lots of good ideas about how we could leverage a 3 person town-team (Space, Swan, Didds) to good effect. And, as you know, I was nervous about targeting someone to talk that might not be town. I knew that Swan was town when he told me about his role.

But how do you know SA is town? How did you know that Swan was town before she flipped? Nothing in your role so far as you have revealed makes it so you know that SA is town. You were in a neighborhood with her during D2. That's it. Unless you're also a cop with your neighborhood (which means we have, with all the claims, at least 3 cops this game, which is ridiculous and I don't believe it) you don't know.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: mail-mi on February 03, 2019, 03:36:40 pm
Quote
I think this:
 
So I believe Space... but that doesn't make me think that she is not scum. I think her role could easily be a scum power.

conspiracy theory: WCD and Space are partners and used WCD's power to have daychat . They then worked together to not get their partner LL lynched by turning it on me. Do I believe this theory? Maybe. I would have to reread day 2 to see exactly when wagons started forming up.
could be a scum slip.
Like, why would mail-mi assume that this potential-scum!Wcd's power even remotely resembles the one claimed?  Scum don't need daychat to orchestrate something like this. And they might have daychat anyway.
The answer: because mail-mi knows wcd has that power.

um, no. That conspiracy theory was going off the assumption that WCD was scum and had her claimed power. I also don't currently believe that theory, it was just a postulation.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: Haddock on February 03, 2019, 03:56:27 pm
Quote
I think this:
 
So I believe Space... but that doesn't make me think that she is not scum. I think her role could easily be a scum power.

conspiracy theory: WCD and Space are partners and used WCD's power to have daychat . They then worked together to not get their partner LL lynched by turning it on me. Do I believe this theory? Maybe. I would have to reread day 2 to see exactly when wagons started forming up.
could be a scum slip.
Like, why would mail-mi assume that this potential-scum!Wcd's power even remotely resembles the one claimed?  Scum don't need daychat to orchestrate something like this. And they might have daychat anyway.
The answer: because mail-mi knows wcd has that power.

um, no. That conspiracy theory was going off the assumption that WCD was scum and had her claimed power. I also don't currently believe that theory, it was just a postulation.
But why assume that?
Why assume that scum!wcd would have that power? It's ludicrously unlikely. (in the world where space is also scum it is, anyway).
And you've just assumed it without even making a point of the fact that you're assuming it. I believe as town you absolutely would have said "let's discuss this weird possibility where space and wcd are both scum AND wcd is telling the truth about her power for some reason"
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: mail-mi on February 03, 2019, 04:04:32 pm
Quote
I think this:
 
So I believe Space... but that doesn't make me think that she is not scum. I think her role could easily be a scum power.

conspiracy theory: WCD and Space are partners and used WCD's power to have daychat . They then worked together to not get their partner LL lynched by turning it on me. Do I believe this theory? Maybe. I would have to reread day 2 to see exactly when wagons started forming up.
could be a scum slip.
Like, why would mail-mi assume that this potential-scum!Wcd's power even remotely resembles the one claimed?  Scum don't need daychat to orchestrate something like this. And they might have daychat anyway.
The answer: because mail-mi knows wcd has that power.

um, no. That conspiracy theory was going off the assumption that WCD was scum and had her claimed power. I also don't currently believe that theory, it was just a postulation.
But why assume that?
Why assume that scum!wcd would have that power? It's ludicrously unlikely. (in the world where space is also scum it is, anyway).
And you've just assumed it without even making a point of the fact that you're assuming it. I believe as town you absolutely would have said "let's discuss this weird possibility where space and wcd are both scum AND wcd is telling the truth about her power for some reason"

How is it ludicrously unlikely? You pointed out that "scum neighborizer is something that we've talked about a lot but have never done." This is setup and mod speculation, so take it with a grain of salt, but doing a scum neighborizer sounds exactly like something faust would do. I mean, he put a cult (albeit a town-aligned one) in this game.

And again, I don't currently believe that theory. It was just something that I thought could be interesting and worth looking into should space flip scum.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: Haddock on February 03, 2019, 04:17:49 pm
Quote
I think this:
 
So I believe Space... but that doesn't make me think that she is not scum. I think her role could easily be a scum power.

conspiracy theory: WCD and Space are partners and used WCD's power to have daychat . They then worked together to not get their partner LL lynched by turning it on me. Do I believe this theory? Maybe. I would have to reread day 2 to see exactly when wagons started forming up.
could be a scum slip.
Like, why would mail-mi assume that this potential-scum!Wcd's power even remotely resembles the one claimed?  Scum don't need daychat to orchestrate something like this. And they might have daychat anyway.
The answer: because mail-mi knows wcd has that power.

um, no. That conspiracy theory was going off the assumption that WCD was scum and had her claimed power. I also don't currently believe that theory, it was just a postulation.
But why assume that?
Why assume that scum!wcd would have that power? It's ludicrously unlikely. (in the world where space is also scum it is, anyway).
And you've just assumed it without even making a point of the fact that you're assuming it. I believe as town you absolutely would have said "let's discuss this weird possibility where space and wcd are both scum AND wcd is telling the truth about her power for some reason"

How is it ludicrously unlikely? You pointed out that "scum neighborizer is something that we've talked about a lot but have never done." This is setup and mod speculation, so take it with a grain of salt, but doing a scum neighborizer sounds exactly like something faust would do. I mean, he put a cult (albeit a town-aligned one) in this game.

And again, I don't currently believe that theory. It was just something that I thought could be interesting and worth looking into should space flip scum.
If space and wcd are partner scum (your words not mine), then both their claims are totally irrelevant. We no longer have any information whatsoever about their powers, and it is madness to believe any part of what they've told us about their powers, up to and especially including some imaginary qt they have together.

If you were town, this would be obvious to you. But I believe you're scum and that's why your natural instinct was to believe them about their powers.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: Haddock on February 03, 2019, 04:24:43 pm
Other people weighing in here would be good.
Obviously mail-mi is going to insist that this isn't a scum slip  but it looks a lot like one to me and I'm gonna struggle to let it go.

I mean hey, I was voting mail-mi anyway. But y'know
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 03, 2019, 04:36:04 pm
I wouldn't mind seeing mail-mi claim more fully.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on February 03, 2019, 04:56:50 pm
vote: WCD

Space, why do you think WCD is town?  Because they opened a qt with you?  I guess they shared their power which made you believe they are town?

I had a pretty strong townread on WCD already at the end of D1. My continued confidence that she's town is all reads-based, rather than hard-evidence-based, if that's what you're asking.

Her playstyle felt too confident and open to be disingenuous, but hesitant enough to show actual thought. If she'd been weaving a complicated web of lies, that would have constituted considerable risk-taking on her part, and she seemed too relaxed and able to make small-talk (especially in our QT).

We didn't exactly immediately just jump to trusting each other, but she was open about her role and quite ready to give me details even though they apparently started out contradicting my own expectation (which was that I'd been RBd, which I thought should have triggered her motion detector).

I've seen town!WCD get scumread previously for being chatty and "fluffy", and I've also been on the wrong end of that kind of town opinion before, so her overall behaviour felt very comfortably consistent with what my less experienced town self might have done, except I'd've been trying to throw in more data analysis tricks.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: ashersky on February 03, 2019, 05:12:39 pm
Regarding the SA claim of WCD’s role first:

Scum neighborizer and the many variants thereof are definitely a thing and have definitely been used here on this site.  Yuma and I famously used a Mentor who played extremely well in M31, for an example off the top of my head.

WCD’s role is alignment neutral at best, and SA’s seemingly willful ignorance of its scum possiblities are worrying, unlikely, and therefore scummy.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: ashersky on February 03, 2019, 05:15:13 pm
Regarding WCD’s claims about Swan’s actions obtained via unconfirmed sources (although SA confirms the power itself), it makes them less believable, which actually helps SA slightly, as the block theory loses a few points.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: ashersky on February 03, 2019, 05:18:25 pm
Regarding SA’s claim; seems to make sense in this game’s design, so could be real or fake, town or scum. No scum points for the claim itself.

Scum points for not targeting 2.7, the claimed cop. You want to see a player targeted by scum with that role, so why not target the most likely player to be blocked or killed?  Yes, he claimed 1-shot, but literally all cops should do that if they have to claim on D2.   So scum points there.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: ashersky on February 03, 2019, 05:22:27 pm
So, net results from the SA/WCD claims:

SA: credibly possible claim, some useful information if true, gained back some town points based on WCD’s possible scum alignment, lost them with untowny use of own claim. Overall neutral, still a strong lynch target.

WCD: was fairly towny to me pre-claim; claimed info about her own actions seem highly suspect, the idea that neighborizing can create super town teams is not credible. Drops from town read to the SA/mail-mi group.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: ashersky on February 03, 2019, 05:23:25 pm
On MM, reminds me of early MM actually, where every post makes him seem scummier and scummier.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: ashersky on February 03, 2019, 05:31:11 pm
So, on why Glooble is most definitely probably scum.

A player’s behavior is necessarily dictated by their in-game alignment. Non-town aligned players may try to replicate their town personas, or just play in a new way, but I do believe it is impossible to 100% suppress your alignment because, in general one plays to win.

So, point the first: Glooble is the only player truly focused on my next vig shot. She’s brought it up multiple times, while basically no one else has. And here is the thing with that, town players don’t care if I have another shot. At least, not in a worried way.

I posit that Glooble is worried I will shoot her. I named her D1 as the preferred target over mcmc, she’s brought up my shot multiple times, and when I changed my vote at a seemingly odd time, she immediately reacted in just about the most scared scum way possible, by again raising the prospect of my shot and going on the offensive.

—hitting post to not lose this, tbd in next post
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: ashersky on February 03, 2019, 05:37:01 pm
I do think Glooble is at a disadvantage here, not having played during the years that I did.  Most of you who have have pointed out that I have a fairly grating, annoying online persona. It has resulted in plenty of friction, but it also can goad scum into slipping up out of frustration. And I think Glooble is frustrated with me and that has made her sloppy because she assumes others are, too.

I believe she’s had the same issue with Awaclus, which is coincidentally what makes Awaclus such an asset, when he’s town.

So here’s where I come down on this: I think Glooble is scum this game. I could be wrong, but I’m probably right. That’s in stark contrast to Glooble’s read of me, where she is either wrong or lying.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: ashersky on February 03, 2019, 05:38:17 pm
Also, I feel strongly that joth townslipped, so he’s no longer a lynch option in this game.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: ashersky on February 03, 2019, 05:41:02 pm
So, to recap, from anti-town to town:

Glooble
SA/MM/WCD
UOS
Awaclus/Haddock
2.7/joth
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: Awaclus on February 03, 2019, 05:48:08 pm
Also, I feel strongly that joth townslipped, so he’s no longer a lynch option in this game.

Huh? Where?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: ashersky on February 03, 2019, 05:57:04 pm
Also, I feel strongly that joth townslipped, so he’s no longer a lynch option in this game.

Huh? Where?

His IRL meeting heads up. I think scum!joth, and scum in general just don’t say anything at all.

You know, like Glooble.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on February 03, 2019, 06:09:19 pm
well, I know Ashersky is town, I don't know that you are.  I think you are though, so thats nice.

You claimed that you targeted him N1 and he was town.

He may be a godfather.
He may have been town and then converted to the cult, or possibly even to scum, making him not town any more.
You may have been redirected.
There may be other roles out there messing with our information gathering, especially since town have a number of investigative roles in play already.

Your continued insistence that he's absolutely town sounds so confident that it seems like you must be writing off some of these sources of doubt. Are you confident that you really have good reason to do so?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: Glooble on February 03, 2019, 06:10:44 pm
Investigative roles can be fooled. Or e and ash could be a team. Both of these have always been on the table. Alternatiely. Ash could be the cult leader, and e her starting cult member. That would make perfect sense with her powers- lynchproof is great for a character whose death would result in the death of a whole faction. 1-shot vig is great for the leader of a faction who needs one specific town player to die in order to fulfill their win-con.

So stop pretending you know ash is town based on the damn cop claim because you don’t.

I, on the other hand, started and pushed the wagon on the only scum we’ve actually caught this game. So I think my town cred is stronger than ashersky’s. You can all choose who you want to trust. Personally I would trust “caught scum” over “claim that could easily be faked.”

Yes I am worried about ash’s shot because I think ash is either scum or cullt with incentive to shoot a town player. You should all be worried about that.

Ash’s “hammer time” comment was just the straw that broke the camel’s back for me. I don’t think she’s town.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: Awaclus on February 03, 2019, 06:15:18 pm
His IRL meeting heads up. I think scum!joth, and scum in general just don’t say anything at all.

Oh. So no townslip then.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: ashersky on February 03, 2019, 06:16:48 pm
I’ll make you a deal. Let’s lynch me now with me on the wagon. After I flip town your only post tomorrow is a self-vote and nothing else.

Being right is much more important to me than being alive. And I trust the others will ensure the deal goes through, because even your scum partners will need to vote you to maintain any semblance of credibility.

I will do enjoy the I told you so post-game.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: ashersky on February 03, 2019, 06:19:31 pm
The deal is for Glooble, of course.

If you break your word and post more than a self-vote you just confirm yourself even further as scum. Seems like a win-win to me. Hi
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on February 03, 2019, 06:21:24 pm
Scum points for not targeting 2.7, the claimed cop. You want to see a player targeted by scum with that role, so why not target the most likely player to be blocked or killed?  Yes, he claimed 1-shot, but literally all cops should do that if they have to claim on D2.   So scum points there.

I didn't want to target a player who could have high known utility for town, because that's exactly who other townies with more informative abilities will want to investigate, and my side-effects could mess with that. My decision was to target someone who I though wasn't scum, but who might get targeted for other stuff. I did explicitly explain that at #1177, because I assumed I might get quizzed over my changing read on Glooble: I'd had that argument with Haddock over what I thought was sloppy presentation of a breakdown of possibilities that Glooble had posted, and for a while I'd been scumreading him (Glooble) there. WCD and I had even considered waggoning Glooble before we settled on Mail-mi, but I'd backed out of that because my scumread was diminishing.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: ashersky on February 03, 2019, 06:23:15 pm
Scum points for not targeting 2.7, the claimed cop. You want to see a player targeted by scum with that role, so why not target the most likely player to be blocked or killed?  Yes, he claimed 1-shot, but literally all cops should do that if they have to claim on D2.   So scum points there.

I didn't want to target a player who could have high known utility for town, because that's exactly who other townies with more informative abilities will want to investigate, and my side-effects could mess with that. My decision was to target someone who I though wasn't scum, but who might get targeted for other stuff. I did explicitly explain that at #1177, because I assumed I might get quizzed over my changing read on Glooble: I'd had that argument with Haddock over what I thought was sloppy presentation of a breakdown of possibilities that Glooble had posted, and for a while I'd been scumreading him (Glooble) there. WCD and I had even considered waggoning Glooble before we settled on Mail-mi, but I'd backed out of that because my scumread was diminishing.

Fair enough as far as reasoning goes. I don’t necessarily agree but the thinking is sensibly SA.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: ashersky on February 03, 2019, 06:24:39 pm
One other point regarding Glooble. Only scum can be so utterly “convinced” as she seems to be. Scum often forget to add the fake self-doubt to their fake reads.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 03, 2019, 06:25:22 pm
Investigative roles can be fooled, but not mine. Except maybe godfather. I am double checking that one.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 03, 2019, 06:27:59 pm
And yeah, Ash could have been recruited, but hypercube proved to us that it is a survivor cult that wins only with town, not scum. So I really don't care if Ash is now with that cult
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on February 03, 2019, 06:41:46 pm
The interesting thing about Ash's theory that Joth has townslipped and Glooble is scum is that in terms of voting actions, the two are nigh-on indistinguishable, and it's not just that one is sheeping the other.

In the very early game, they do their own thing, with Glooble voting Galz and eventually Joth voting Awaclus. Joth moves to Mail-mi at #107, and Glooble joins at #143. By #178, Joth is on Robz and Glooble has unvoted completely. By the mid #200s, Glooble is on the growing Hyper wagon and Joth has unvoted completely. So far, that's reasonably independent.

When the big mcmc wagon comes along, Joth is the first non-green name (for me) onto the wagon at #327, with Glooble following immediately behind at #328. They end D1 both voting for Ash, with LL in between them (and WCD&Hyper also on the wagon).

Over D2, they spend over 140 posts sitting with both of them voting LL. Glooble was the first one on that wagon, but Joth sticks even after it first dies down. Joth eventually joins the Awaclus wagon, followed only 27 posts later by Glooble... but then less than 20 posts later, they're both back on LL, this time with Joth joining the wagon before Glooble.

Early D3, Joth briefly voted Mail-mi, then they were both on Awaclus, then both on me. They did both unvote from that, thankfully! Now Glooble is unsurprisingly on Ash, and Joth is still not voting.

I'm not too surprised that they're somewhat more correlated that your average pair of players, given the twinclaim, but I do think it probably also points to a shared alignment motivating their underlying behaviour too. Certainly I'd find it hard to hold entirely opposite reads on the two of them, given that their voting behaviours match so very closely.

PPE 3
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on February 03, 2019, 06:56:05 pm
You have to imagine that in my view I have a green colour on me, WCD and Hyper. I wanted to get a lot of green players onto one as-yet-unknown name, and then see who else joined.

Important part bolded. According to WCD's own description of her power thus far, Space has no idea whether WCD is town or not. She may believe that WCD is town, but she doesn't know for certain. Scumslip? Again, maybe. I'm not sure though.

At that point I didn't know for sure that Hyper was town either, but it sounded highly likely, so I was working with what was available. What I was giving there was an explanation with an example, for Haddock, of what exactly I hoped to get out of the wagon analysis.

If you're seriously proposing that WCD and I are the remainder of the scumteam, why on earth do you think we wagoned you, instead of any of the people who had votes on them already, who presumably can't all also have been on the scumteam you hypothesize?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on February 03, 2019, 07:04:19 pm
Ash’s “hammer time” comment was just the straw that broke the camel’s back for me. I don’t think she’s town.

Ash likes hammering people. It's just kind of a thing, so I didn't actually read anything more than typically hostile Ash-ness from it.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: jotheonah on February 03, 2019, 07:08:26 pm
I'd like to vote for mail-mi. What L are they at?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: mail-mi on February 03, 2019, 07:08:54 pm
You have to imagine that in my view I have a green colour on me, WCD and Hyper. I wanted to get a lot of green players onto one as-yet-unknown name, and then see who else joined.

Important part bolded. According to WCD's own description of her power thus far, Space has no idea whether WCD is town or not. She may believe that WCD is town, but she doesn't know for certain. Scumslip? Again, maybe. I'm not sure though.

At that point I didn't know for sure that Hyper was town either, but it sounded highly likely, so I was working with what was available. What I was giving there was an explanation with an example, for Haddock, of what exactly I hoped to get out of the wagon analysis.

If you're seriously proposing that WCD and I are the remainder of the scumteam, why on earth do you think we wagoned you, instead of any of the people who had votes on them already, who presumably can't all also have been on the scumteam you hypothesize?

Yeah but hyper was either conf!town or conf!scum at that point. If she didn't die at the end of the day, then she was lying and basically confirmed scum at that point. However, WCD was not and is not conf!town.

Again. That was a theory that I suggested. Am I considering it? Only slightly. For now I think it's much more likely that you're scum with someone else, maybe joth, maybe glooble, maybe e.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: Glooble on February 03, 2019, 07:09:56 pm
I’ll make you a deal. Let’s lynch me now with me on the wagon. After I flip town your only post tomorrow is a self-vote and nothing else.

Being right is much more important to me than being alive. And I trust the others will ensure the deal goes through, because even your scum partners will need to vote you to maintain any semblance of credibility.

I will do enjoy the I told you so post-game.

This is an astonishingly bad plan. Because if we are both town it basically loses us the game. So no.

If we did do this plan, the other way around would be better. Your role is much more valuable to town than mine. Makes way more sense to lynch me first.

Although if you really are convinced I’m scum, why are we having this conversation? Why haven’t you shot me already?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on February 03, 2019, 07:11:55 pm
I have to get to bed now.. my ridiculous late night was rather foolish!

@Joth, on the Canada comment, I'd say it can definitely be worth keeping track of what timezones various players are in, because it can make a difference to reading people if they're always slow responding to comments etc.. At one point gkrieg and I (who used to scumread each other a lot) realised we were pretty much never online at the same time as each other, because his active time was after I'd gone to bed, and mine was when he was often busy with work, since we were like 7 or 8 timezones apart. Also, my sympathies on not getting Disco via Netflix :-P
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: jotheonah on February 03, 2019, 07:13:43 pm
Ok I wanted to see Glooble's reaction to ash's plan before I weighed in, but I also think it's a terrible plan, since I think they are both town.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on February 03, 2019, 07:14:01 pm
I'd like to vote for mail-mi. What L are they at?

Space count as of #1198:

jotheonah (1): Awaclus
mail-mi (3): Haddock, SpaceAnemone, WestCoastDidds
SpaceAnemone (1): mail-mi
Glooble (1): ashersky
ashersky (1): Glooble
WestCoastDidds (1): 2.71828.....
Not Voting (2): UmbrageOfSnow, jotheonah

(Really going to bed this time)
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: Glooble on February 03, 2019, 07:14:33 pm
One other point regarding Glooble. Only scum can be so utterly “convinced” as she seems to be. Scum often forget to add the fake self-doubt to their fake reads.

Wow, well you seem awfully convinced that I’m scum. If we apply your own logic to you you don’t come out looking so good.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: jotheonah on February 03, 2019, 07:17:54 pm
I'd like to vote for mail-mi. What L are they at?

Space count as of #1198:

jotheonah (1): Awaclus
mail-mi (3): Haddock, SpaceAnemone, WestCoastDidds
SpaceAnemone (1): mail-mi
Glooble (1): ashersky
ashersky (1): Glooble
WestCoastDidds (1): 2.71828.....
Not Voting (2): UmbrageOfSnow, jotheonah

(Really going to bed this time)

Thanks Space.

vote: mail-mi
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: Glooble on February 03, 2019, 07:21:39 pm
Furthermore, if I'm scum, what the hell sense does it make for me to attack ashersky? Like, if I were scum, I would be scum who had built up an incredible amount of goodwill and towncred. Why the hell would I throw it away attack another player who everyone thinks is town when there was a perfectly good wagon that I was already well positioned on. My actions make absolutely no sense if you think I'm scum.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: jotheonah on February 03, 2019, 07:38:32 pm
Furthermore, if I'm scum, what the hell sense does it make for me to attack ashersky? Like, if I were scum, I would be scum who had built up an incredible amount of goodwill and towncred. Why the hell would I throw it away attack another player who everyone thinks is town when there was a perfectly good wagon that I was already well positioned on. My actions make absolutely no sense if you think I'm scum.

I don't think you're scum (and maybe it's my blindspot) but I do think this ashersky crusade is misguided, a bit random, and not productive. Come join the mail-mi wagon, the water's fine!
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: Glooble on February 03, 2019, 07:48:02 pm
Furthermore, if I'm scum, what the hell sense does it make for me to attack ashersky? Like, if I were scum, I would be scum who had built up an incredible amount of goodwill and towncred. Why the hell would I throw it away attack another player who everyone thinks is town when there was a perfectly good wagon that I was already well positioned on. My actions make absolutely no sense if you think I'm scum.

I don't think you're scum (and maybe it's my blindspot) but I do think this ashersky crusade is misguided, a bit random, and not productive. Come join the mail-mi wagon, the water's fine!

I’m not the one who started this. Ash voted for me first.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: Glooble on February 03, 2019, 08:09:57 pm
You know what, I’m sorry for derailing the scum hunt with my attack on ash. Much like my attack on Awaclus, it was motivated more by emotion than logic. I still think the ash/e scum team is a strong possibility.  But it’s only a possibility. Like with Awaclus, I had a theory and I let myself get tunnel vision, and I let my anger toward ash for her attacks on me fuel that tunnel vision. But that’s not productive for town.

I’d rather win than be right. And this fight isn’t helping town win.

unvote
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: mail-mi on February 03, 2019, 08:21:27 pm
Furthermore, if I'm scum, what the hell sense does it make for me to attack ashersky? Like, if I were scum, I would be scum who had built up an incredible amount of goodwill and towncred. Why the hell would I throw it away attack another player who everyone thinks is town when there was a perfectly good wagon that I was already well positioned on. My actions make absolutely no sense if you think I'm scum.

I don't think you're scum (and maybe it's my blindspot) but I do think this ashersky crusade is misguided, a bit random, and not productive. Come join the mail-mi wagon, the water's fine!

no it's not

Okay, I'm gonna claim a little bit more. I am Eminence Ifian Wos, the priest of Amaat. Every even night, I can perform the Morning Cast, wherein I consult with Amaat about a player. The next night, Amaat will tell me the player's alignment. As I said, I targeted hypercube on N1, because I wasn't sure about her. There is one more small aspect of my role that would be actively detrimental to town to claim right now, and so I will refrain.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: Glooble on February 03, 2019, 08:34:23 pm
so not an AI then.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: mail-mi on February 03, 2019, 08:44:56 pm
so not an AI then.

Correct.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: jotheonah on February 03, 2019, 08:52:27 pm
Weirdly, flavor makes me believe the claim slightly more.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: mail-mi on February 03, 2019, 08:55:30 pm
I still don't understand how SA and WCD have these ultimate townreads on each other. I think one of them is playing the other--and I think the evil one in the group is SA.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: Awaclus on February 03, 2019, 09:34:09 pm
I'm not sure how good of an idea it is to claim flavor every time. There's the cult trying to get rid of other Anaander Mianaais, and if there's a town Anaander Mianaai, every flavor claim we make helps them narrow down the search which is not in our best interests.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: Glooble on February 03, 2019, 09:34:55 pm
Can I just say one more thing and then I promise I’ll shut up about ash? If ash and Awaclus are both town, I think their play style is anti-town and unproductive. It might goad scum into revealing themselves sometimes but it’s just as likely to goad town players into starting pointless fights with them that distract from the real analysis and lead to town lynches.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: Awaclus on February 03, 2019, 09:37:15 pm
Can I just say one more thing and then I promise I’ll shut up about ash? If ash and Awaclus are both town, I think their play style is anti-town and unproductive. It might goad scum into revealing themselves sometimes but it’s just as likely to goad town players into starting pointless fights with them that distract from the real analysis and lead to town lynches.

My style is pro-town and productive, and so is ashersky's (at least when he's town).
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: ashersky on February 03, 2019, 11:33:44 pm
One other point regarding Glooble. Only scum can be so utterly “convinced” as she seems to be. Scum often forget to add the fake self-doubt to their fake reads.

Wow, well you seem awfully convinced that I’m scum. If we apply your own logic to you you don’t come out looking so good.

I would suggest you reread my posts.  I specifically wrote that I could be wrong, anticipating that I would make this argument against you. And also because I’m not infallible at all.

You (until a few posts ago) seemed to not want to accept that you could be wrong about me.

As for the suicide pact plan, of course it’s terrible for town if we are both town. But it’s great if I’m right (or if you were right).  So it isn’t fair to just write it off as bad without considering that. Take how confident you may are about being right and factor that in.

Anyway, you declined, so moving on from that.  Thoughts on the mail-mi claim?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: ashersky on February 03, 2019, 11:34:53 pm
And if it isn’t clear, I clearly can’t shoot today. Multiple day vig shots is powerful, so they are tempered (too much in my mod opinion, but I just want to take more actions).
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: faust on February 04, 2019, 01:13:43 am
Vote Count 3.4

jotheonah (1): Awaclus
mail-mi (4): Haddock, SpaceAnemonae, WestCoastDidds, jotheonah
SpaceAnemone (1): mail-mi
Glooble (1): ashersky
WestCoastDidds (1): 2.71828.....

Not Voting (2): UmbrageOfSnow, Glooble

With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch. Day 3 ends on February 07, 2019, 01:00:00 am.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: mail-mi on February 04, 2019, 01:28:30 am
Furthermore, if I'm scum, what the hell sense does it make for me to attack ashersky? Like, if I were scum, I would be scum who had built up an incredible amount of goodwill and towncred. Why the hell would I throw it away attack another player who everyone thinks is town when there was a perfectly good wagon that I was already well positioned on. My actions make absolutely no sense if you think I'm scum.

I don't think you're scum (and maybe it's my blindspot) but I do think this ashersky crusade is misguided, a bit random, and not productive. Come join the mail-mi wagon, the water's fine!

no it's not

Okay, I'm gonna claim a little bit more. I am Eminence Ifian Wos, the priest of Amaat. Every even night, I can perform the Morning Cast, wherein I consult with Amaat about a player. The next night, Amaat will tell me the player's alignment. As I said, I targeted hypercube on N1, because I wasn't sure about her. There is one more small aspect of my role that would be actively detrimental to town to claim right now, and so I will refrain.

Excuse me, I misspoke here. Every odd night I can perform the Morning Cast, and then on even nights I get my results.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: UmbrageOfSnow on February 04, 2019, 01:45:06 am
Bleh, it's 1:45 AM and now Monday and it turns out there was this big dumb sporting event today that people who don't care about get dragged into having to sit around vaguely near without internet.

3 Days left.

I am aware of this, I can do this, I'm deeply sorry
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: UmbrageOfSnow on February 04, 2019, 01:45:42 am
I'm going to find something substantive to say while I'm useless here before I sleep, so it's not all just excuses excuses excuses
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: UmbrageOfSnow on February 04, 2019, 01:55:40 am
I think both Ash and Awaclus get more crap than they deserve because of how they present their arguments, even if I also think both are not always as pro-town as they personally think they are.

relating to Joth earlier, although I don't really want to get into this, but it's occurring to me that I didn't address it: my point was that no individual has all the information, other than the mod. Individuals don't know what the best time to do things is because they can't know the odds of other things and taking the opinions of others into account is extremely important.

Something I got into a discussion with my friend Uncleeurope about after a previous game in which he'd gotten in a fight with Awaclus I think, and maybe had argued with faust about something? was that everyone here was like me and thought there was only one correct way to play the game and it drove him nuts. And yet, we all disagree with each other about things.

It's easy to get annoyed at someone and start thinking they are scummy for everything. But then I also remember trying to lynch scum Awaclus once and it just being really infuriating because there's that element of "is it just confbias and being annoyed."
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: UmbrageOfSnow on February 04, 2019, 01:56:50 am
Haven't read all the intervening stuff, but did mail-mi explain why he claimed odd-night before and is now saying it's every night?

Like if you were worried about the night kill, just don't claim in that situation, or imply it's something weaker than it is.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: UmbrageOfSnow on February 04, 2019, 02:01:02 am
Oh, and has anyone gone back and looked at LaLight interactions in detail?

Because it seems to me like LL really likes and sometimes slips up with partner interactions, even though she's aware of it and trying to mix it up like in Czech mafia. That was what I was trying to do that first real-life day at the start of day, got too deep on and didn't have time to get through in the detail I wanted and that's part of what I keep meaning to get around to doing.

But when I replaced in, I was thinking that would be a thing I'd look for someone else looking at when they came into the day and that would be worth some serious townpoints but then it seems like it was really not the focus (although I have possibly missed it.)

Okay, things have been said, crashing
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: UmbrageOfSnow on February 04, 2019, 02:04:09 am
RMMs are not good for skimming, seriously
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: ashersky on February 04, 2019, 02:11:24 am
MM on L2, claimed. Any changes feelings from the wagon?

I personally feel he’s the same as before the claim.  It didn’t move the needle, so to say.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 04, 2019, 02:11:47 am
I don't think mail-mi completing their claim is detrimental to town if it might prevent lynching town.

Like Ash said earlier about SA- better that we hear the claim now than just see it in a flip
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 04, 2019, 02:13:54 am
Right now mail-mi is a "would lynch" for me, I just don't really prefer them.  I do think WCD's most recent reactions have been townie, so

Vote: SA
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: Glooble on February 04, 2019, 05:11:09 am
The mail-mi claim doesn’t really move the needle for me either. And I don’t think the Scumslip Haddock pointed out is necessarily a Scumslip- I can see a town player getting confused in that way with so much role information coming in at once.

The thing with Space is I still think I trust WCD, so if Space is scum, she was fooling her in the QT. That’s definitely harder than in a thread, but it’s not impossible. But the QT does sort of explain the play patterns that I found especially scummy on D2. I’m rubbish at math, so I don’t know if Space’s “generate wagons to put people into groups to rule out scum pairings” plan is actually logical, but it does jive with what I know of Space’s personality.

I guess if I have to pick one of the two to lynch today, I pick mail-mi.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: Glooble on February 04, 2019, 05:36:23 am
vote: mail-mi

Joth and Haddock are still my biggest townreads, so aim happy to sheep them, in the absence of a viable lynch that I feel more strongly about.

This is L-1, I believe.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 04, 2019, 06:50:56 am
vote: mail-mi

Joth and Haddock are still my biggest townreads, so aim happy to sheep them, in the absence of a viable lynch that I feel more strongly about.

This is L-1, I believe.

Why aren't you super worried about ending the day on mail-mi like you were with Space?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: Glooble on February 04, 2019, 07:23:03 am
vote: mail-mi

Joth and Haddock are still my biggest townreads, so aim happy to sheep them, in the absence of a viable lynch that I feel more strongly about.

This is L-1, I believe.

Why aren't you super worried about ending the day on mail-mi like you were with Space?

Mail-mi has already fully claimed and isn’t going to tell us anything else useful.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: mail-mi on February 04, 2019, 09:03:00 am
Ok, I will claim the other part of my role then: Holy Protection: I am sometimes bulletproof. Not gonna say how often or when.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: ashersky on February 04, 2019, 09:18:52 am
Just as likely a scum power as town. Perhaps you are day bp to protect against me?

I could hammer. Any objections other than from mm?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: mail-mi on February 04, 2019, 09:49:56 am
Just as likely a scum power as town. Perhaps you are day bp to protect against me?

I could hammer. Any objections other than from mm?

It is not day BP.

Let's not do that.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: Awaclus on February 04, 2019, 10:03:36 am
I'm not opposed to the mail-mi lynch, but I think the joth lynch is better.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: jotheonah on February 04, 2019, 10:09:26 am
Just as likely a scum power as town. Perhaps you are day bp to protect against me?

I could hammer. Any objections other than from mm?

Nein.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: mail-mi on February 04, 2019, 10:12:28 am
*grits teeth*

Fine.

I'm on the bus right now. I have more to claim. Don't hammer me yet.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: mail-mi on February 04, 2019, 10:41:41 am
Okay.

I am not Ifian Wos. I am Anaaner Mianaai. I tried to recruit hypercube on N1. Everything that she said about my role is true--I win with town, and I must also be the only Anaander Mianaai left alive to win. From the wording in my PM, it seems like the other Anaander Mianaai does not win with town.

The reason that I claimed odd-night cop is that I can only recruit people on odd nights. There are 2 ways that I can recruit people: either I can try to force them into it or try to convince them to join me. If I use the first option, the player is given a choice: either join me, or die at the end of the day. If I use the second option, a QT opens up between me and them during the next day, wherein I can try to persuade them to join me.

My power does not work on non-Radch aligned people. I was planning on using it as a copping power--that's why I targeted hypercube. If she joined me, I knew that she had been town. If she didn't join me and didn't die, then I knew she is scum. However she decided to die instead, which is super lame.

tl;dr I win with town. We need to find the scum and not waste a lynch here. Also I'm pretty sure the other Anaander Mianaai(s) don't win with the town, though I'm not certain on that.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: mail-mi on February 04, 2019, 10:42:00 am
Now someone needs to unvote me RIGHT NOW before the other Anaander Mianaai comes in and hammers.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: mail-mi on February 04, 2019, 10:43:03 am
Okay.

I am not Ifian Wos. I am Anaaner Mianaai. I tried to recruit hypercube on N1. Everything that she said about my role is true--I win with town, and I must also be the only Anaander Mianaai left alive to win. From the wording in my PM, it seems like the other Anaander Mianaai does not win with town.

The reason that I claimed odd-night cop is that I can only recruit people on odd nights. There are 2 ways that I can recruit people: either I can try to force them into it or try to convince them to join me. If I use the first option, the player is given a choice: either join me, or die at the end of the day. If I use the second option, a QT opens up between me and them during the next day, wherein I can try to persuade them to join me.

My power does not work on non-Radch aligned people. I was planning on using it as a copping power--that's why I targeted hypercube. If she joined me, I knew that she had been town. If she didn't join me and didn't die, then I knew she is scum. However she decided to die instead, which is super lame.

tl;dr I win with town. We need to find the scum and not waste a lynch here. Also I'm pretty sure the other Anaander Mianaai(s) don't win with the town, though I'm not certain on that.

I should add that I can win ONLY with town. My wincon says the same thing as the town PM, except with the added part that the other Anaander Mianaai must be dead.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: mail-mi on February 04, 2019, 10:43:27 am
And everyone needs to vote for SA because she is scum.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: mail-mi on February 04, 2019, 10:48:46 am
And everyone needs to vote for SA because she is scum.

Note that I don't currently think she's the other Anaander Mianaai, I just think she is scum.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: Glooble on February 04, 2019, 11:04:54 am
Mail-mi, is anyone else in your faction or is it just you? You don't have to say who, just tell us if someone else dies if you die.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: Awaclus on February 04, 2019, 11:05:43 am
Vote: mail-mi
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: Awaclus on February 04, 2019, 11:05:58 am
That takes care of that problem.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: mail-mi on February 04, 2019, 11:06:45 am
Vote: mail-mi

Ah rip.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: mail-mi on February 04, 2019, 11:09:53 am
Well I tried. Good luck town and other anaander mianaai!

Also btw the other anaander mianaai is probably town. I was just saying that to try to get y'all to kill her.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: mail-mi on February 04, 2019, 11:27:17 am
Lynch SA for me.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: Glooble on February 04, 2019, 11:51:38 am
While we're in twilight I should claim something because I think the fight between me and ash might cause someone to investigate me. Part of my role is that if anyone is voting for me at the end of the day, investigative roles targeting me will be redirected to that player. So you'll get whatever result you would have gotten if you'd targeted Ash. Just FYI.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: jotheonah on February 04, 2019, 11:52:34 am
Mail-mi, are you investigation-immune?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: faust on February 04, 2019, 12:00:36 pm
Day 3 Final Vote Count

mail-mi (6): Haddock, SpaceAnemonae, WestCoastDidds, jotheonah, Glooble, Awaclus
SpaceAnemone (2): mail-mi, 2.71828.....
Glooble (1): ashersky

Not Voting (1): UmbrageOfSnow

With 10 alive, it took 6 to lynch.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: mail-mi on February 04, 2019, 12:00:57 pm
Mail-mi, are you investigation-immune?
No
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: faust on February 04, 2019, 12:06:09 pm
A carefully executed plan went awry when Breq discovered the spy on her ship. With the fall of Omaugh Palace, the consolidation of Anaander Mianaai progressed.

mail-mi has been lynched! She was Anaander Mianaai, the Lord-of-the-Radch-aligned 2-shot Active Bulletproof/1-shot Semi-Loyal Vigilante Modified Odd-Night Cult Leader Even-Night Modified Redirector.

Night 3 begins now and lasts until February 06, 2019, 12:00:00 pm. Night actions due 1 hours before that.

Thread locked!
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: faust on February 06, 2019, 12:20:36 pm
Uran had heard the boardcasts. They were offering former crew member of the "mad Ancillary" amnesty for their "improper actions" if they offered themselves and their information up. Would that be enough to tempt them? She trusted most, but even one person giving in would threaten the whole rebellion.

As she walked the streets of the Undergarden, she passed a group of people shouting, arguing about something. She made her way through the crowd, and then she saw the body, leaning against the wall, the words "Traitor" written next to her. "Well, that is one less worry", she thought - and was shocked by her own cynicism.


Haddock has been killed! She was Lieutenant Ekalu, the Radch-aligned Targeted Active Enabler.

jotheonah takes one less vote to lynch today.

Day 4 begins now!


Vote Count 4.0

Not Voting (8): SpaceAnemone, jotheonah, Awaclus, 2.71828....., WestCoastDidds, UmbrageOfSnow, ashersky, Glooble

With 8 alive, it takes 5 to lynch. Day 3 ends on February 13, 2019, 12:00:00 pm.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Glooble on February 06, 2019, 12:29:33 pm
Damn. I liked Haddock. She had a good head on her shoulders.

I'm pretty sure she (or Robz) targeted me night 1 with her "Enabler" power, though it didn't end up mattering.

I am glad mail-mi died without recruiting anyone. Scum would have been better, obviously, but that faction was a liability.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on February 06, 2019, 12:30:36 pm
Ugh, Joth....hated again.  Any idea why?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: jotheonah on February 06, 2019, 12:35:42 pm
Ugh, Joth....hated again.  Any idea why?

I'm starting to think the power was a 1-shot that lasts for the rest of the game. That makes me a pretty big liability in LyLo so, as much as I hate to say it, there might be a case for policy-lynching me.

Glooble, I don't think Enabler means what you think it means. I mean, what do you think it means?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Glooble on February 06, 2019, 12:37:24 pm
Ugh, Joth....hated again.  Any idea why?

I'm starting to think the power was a 1-shot that lasts for the rest of the game. That makes me a pretty big liability in LyLo so, as much as I hate to say it, there might be a case for policy-lynching me.

Glooble, I don't think Enabler means what you think it means. I mean, what do you think it means?

I got a message at the beginning of night 2 that one of my powers had been enhanced, for one night only.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: jotheonah on February 06, 2019, 12:44:51 pm
Enabler usually means the power doesn't work at all unless it's enabled. But I guess it could mean "enhancer". Anything goes in faust's RM.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: jotheonah on February 06, 2019, 12:53:58 pm
On another thread. mail-mi was Anaander Mianaai (the one who tried to recruit hyper). (also w/ the bulletproof, we now have a possible explanation of N! lack of nightkill). Awaclus's hammer suggests pretty strongly that he's the other Anaander Mianaai. mail-mi thinks that makes him not-scum. Mail-mi was orange and Lord-of-the-Radch aligned. From a game design and flavor perspective, I'm inclined to agree with mail-mi, but open to other perspectives.

Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Glooble on February 06, 2019, 12:57:32 pm
Enabler usually means the power doesn't work at all unless it's enabled. But I guess it could mean "enhancer". Anything goes in faust's RM.

That tracks with the exact wording of the message.

On another thread. mail-mi was Anaander Mianaai (the one who tried to recruit hyper). (also w/ the bulletproof, we now have a possible explanation of N! lack of nightkill). Awaclus's hammer suggests pretty strongly that he's the other Anaander Mianaai. mail-mi thinks that makes him not-scum. Mail-mi was orange and Lord-of-the-Radch aligned. From a game design and flavor perspective, I'm inclined to agree with mail-mi, but open to other perspectives.



Awaclus has been pretty keen on lynching whoever the recruiter was since hypercube revealed that role's existence. I'm not suprised she hammered.

On a related note, I was nearly certain that Ashersky was the cult leader and had some knowledge that Space was the town-aligned Anander. Obviously that theory is a bust.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Glooble on February 06, 2019, 01:00:35 pm
(also w/ the bulletproof, we now have a possible explanation of N! lack of nightkill).

You mean another possible explanation? Since we already know Space was jail-kept, which would have prevented the NK whether Space was the target or the aggressor.

And by "know" I mean assuming we trust Didds, which I do, currently.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: jotheonah on February 06, 2019, 01:02:25 pm
(also w/ the bulletproof, we now have a possible explanation of N! lack of nightkill).

You mean another possible explanation? Since we already know Space was jail-kept, which would have prevented the NK whether Space was the target or the aggressor.

And by "know" I mean assuming we trust Didds, which I do, currently.

True. I had forgotten about that.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Glooble on February 06, 2019, 01:03:47 pm
So who still thinks Space is scum? Personally I could go either way.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on February 06, 2019, 01:24:53 pm
I am still firmly in the Space=town camp. In our discussions she was onto LL from early in D2, and the only reason she (and I) didn't vote is that it would have ended the day early. I don't know why she would have risked that if she was scum and we know that LL was (likely) the biggest baddest scum role. She could easily have just kept talking about someone else if she was hoping to lynch town.

I am a bit perplexed on the Haddock kill....because why is 2.718... still alive?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: jotheonah on February 06, 2019, 01:31:28 pm
I am still firmly in the Space=town camp. In our discussions she was onto LL from early in D2, and the only reason she (and I) didn't vote is that it would have ended the day early. I don't know why she would have risked that if she was scum and we know that LL was (likely) the biggest baddest scum role. She could easily have just kept talking about someone else if she was hoping to lynch town.

I am a bit perplexed on the Haddock kill....because why is 2.718... still alive?

In Czech mafia, we left the obvious kill alive because we were trying to frame them. (A) That was a terrible idea that went very badly and (B) LaLight, my fellow scum, was against it from the start. Also, in that case we at least tried to nudge the suspicion along. Here, there's no evidence of a frame attempt.

There are two very good reasons scum would target e -- one, they assume the 1-shot part of the cop claim was a lie and two, e has achieved near-IC status in the intervening time. There's one good reason to not target e -- knowing that the game has protective roles (and that their N1 kill failed) they might be trying to choose targets they believe are the least likely to be protected. On the other hand, our jailkeeper is dead. How many protective roles does scum think we have?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: jotheonah on February 06, 2019, 01:33:41 pm
To be clear: Either e is not being framed or the people framing e are much better at it than I was. Or maybe they believe the 1-shot part of the claim. After all, why does a full cop out themselves after one investigation that didn't even turn up scum? But then, why does a scum fakeclaim cop early on day 1?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: jotheonah on February 06, 2019, 01:52:59 pm
Also yeah, we have 1 dead scum, ladies. If we count the cult as town that's 2 scum out of 10 players, so 2 mislynches and a no-lynch before 5 player LYLO, and that's worst case. We shouldn't claim today.

If Ash dayvigs town that's just the no-lynch and we still shouldn't claim.

Ok, this is a weird post. This was after the LaLight flip. Why is UoS treating it like a given that there are 3 scum? I don't believe it was ever stated. I know we throw the word around waaaaay too much, but ... scumslip?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Glooble on February 06, 2019, 02:02:31 pm

There are two very good reasons scum would target e -- one, they assume the 1-shot part of the cop claim was a lie and two, e has achieved near-IC status in the intervening time. There's one good reason to not target e -- knowing that the game has protective roles (and that their N1 kill failed) they might be trying to choose targets they believe are the least likely to be protected. On the other hand, our jailkeeper is dead. How many protective roles does scum think we have?

I'm still open to the ash/e scum team possibility, and e's continued survival is a point in favor of that theory. But I also think Haddock was a pretty good choice for scum to make, given that she was very unlikely to be a mislynch (almost no suspicion on her all game) and targeting either e or ash would be a kind of a shell game at this point.


It's slightly suspicious, but not super suspicious.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: Glooble on February 06, 2019, 02:04:09 pm
Also yeah, we have 1 dead scum, ladies. If we count the cult as town that's 2 scum out of 10 players, so 2 mislynches and a no-lynch before 5 player LYLO, and that's worst case. We shouldn't claim today.

If Ash dayvigs town that's just the no-lynch and we still shouldn't claim.

Ok, this is a weird post. This was after the LaLight flip. Why is UoS treating it like a given that there are 3 scum? I don't believe it was ever stated. I know we throw the word around waaaaay too much, but ... scumslip?

Yeah, that's fishy.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: jotheonah on February 06, 2019, 02:05:23 pm
Ok, I just did a full Robz/UoS reread and it took no time at all! I don't want to get into the lurking aspect because UoS has been very apologetic about it and cited real-world excuses, but the fact is we have a shockingly small amount of content from UoS, none of it represents solid contributions, I'm not sure he's cast a single vote since replacing in, and he might have scumslipped. I'm feeling ok about a

vote: UmbrageOfSnow
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 06, 2019, 02:18:03 pm
Well, mail-mi's flip makes sense and also why I wasn't picking them as scum based on LaLight's flip - they weren't the same faction.

I agree that the Haddock kill is an interesting one.

I don't think it is a scum slip to assume a certain amount of scum at any point of the game. With 14 players it is a fairly safe assumption to say 3 scum+(other non-town aligned) in the game.  In this game that other-non-town was mail-mi, but I think it is safe to say there are still 2 scum left
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: jotheonah on February 06, 2019, 02:18:43 pm
But I also think Haddock was a pretty good choice for scum to make, given that she was very unlikely to be a mislynch (almost no suspicion on her all game)

This I disagree on. Haddock was not cleared in any way. If I were scum, I think Haddock would be a prime candidate for a mislynch. I'm actually a little glad she was the nightkill because it's one less null read I have to look at today.

Hmmm... Another reason not to kill e is that it makes ash into a real IC. And I think people who have been around a while would be scared to death of IC ash.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: jotheonah on February 06, 2019, 02:20:04 pm

I don't think it is a scum slip to assume a certain amount of scum at any point of the game. With 14 players it is a fairly safe assumption to say 3 scum+(other non-town aligned) in the game.  In this game that other-non-town was mail-mi, but I think it is safe to say there are still 2 scum left

It's not the assumption itself but the treatment of it as fact, rather than assumption.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on February 06, 2019, 02:20:29 pm
I'm still open to the ash/e scum team possibility, and e's continued survival is a point in favor of that theory. But I also think Haddock was a pretty good choice for scum to make, given that she was very unlikely to be a mislynch (almost no suspicion on her all game) and targeting either e or ash would be a kind of a shell game at this point.

Yeah, they could be a team....but it could also be an e/UoS team. They aren't really tied together, except that e claimed Asher was town, right? And if e is scum, she can do that pretty easily without being afraid of getting it wrong.

I am not opposed to the UoS vote. I can't say that I have much a sense of her at all, but that in and of itself is kind of suspicious.  At the end of D3, UoS said we needed to do a full LL re-read.  I did that. I'll post it if we think we need it, but I don't want to clutter the thread with a huge post if its not necessary.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 06, 2019, 02:21:50 pm
Also, seeing mail-mi's full role description (talk about a long role-name/description) is that it seems like we are safe from any cult/3rd alignment at this point. I think we are likely at 8 players, 2 scum 6 town. No more funky alignment changes or third parties. I hope
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 06, 2019, 02:23:23 pm

I don't think it is a scum slip to assume a certain amount of scum at any point of the game. With 14 players it is a fairly safe assumption to say 3 scum+(other non-town aligned) in the game.  In this game that other-non-town was mail-mi, but I think it is safe to say there are still 2 scum left

It's not the assumption itself but the treatment of it as fact, rather than assumption.

That could be a personality thing. I state opinions as facts all the time.

That being said, I agree that UoS is a clear lynch candidate today.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on February 06, 2019, 02:23:54 pm
E, any sense of what they long-ass role means? What is semi-loyal vig?

And we're assuming that we're free of the 3rd party because none of her recruits died?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: jotheonah on February 06, 2019, 02:25:21 pm
Also, seeing mail-mi's full role description (talk about a long role-name/description) is that it seems like we are safe from any cult/3rd alignment at this point. I think we are likely at 8 players, 2 scum 6 town. No more funky alignment changes or third parties. I hope

What about Awaclus though? That was a suspicious and not necessarily pro-town hammer.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: jotheonah on February 06, 2019, 02:26:21 pm
Loyal is a modifier that means your power won't work if you target your own faction, I believe. Which is pretty confusing in this context.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 06, 2019, 02:27:59 pm
E, any sense of what they long-ass role means? What is semi-loyal vig?

And we're assuming that we're free of the 3rd party because none of her recruits died?

1) semi-loyal vig- no clue
2) free of 3rd party because it said odd night cult leader, we saw hyper die D2 after recruitment N1 and then mail-mi was lynched before recruiting N3
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: jotheonah on February 06, 2019, 02:30:08 pm
Well in a sense mail-mi vigged hypercube. Maybe that's what semi-loyal vig means.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 06, 2019, 02:30:13 pm
Well I tried. Good luck town and other anaander mianaai!

Also btw the other anaander mianaai is probably town. I was just saying that to try to get y'all to kill her.

And yeah, I guess there might be another 3rd party player? Maybe with opposite powers? Even night recruit, semi-loyal vig.....?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 06, 2019, 02:35:48 pm
But if there is another anaander mianaai person that is town (ish?) that recruited N2 then the recruitment was likely successful?

This is all pure speculation at this point.

So if they are like what hypercube was recruited to they only win when town wins, not scum.

So I think the recruitee should claim, which makes them cult-aligned-winning-with-town IC.

So we could be 2 other, 4 town, 2 scum
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 06, 2019, 02:36:53 pm
Basically two survivors who win with town, but lose if the other one is still alive.

I like it as a mechanic. Simple, elegant
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Glooble on February 06, 2019, 02:42:28 pm
Also, seeing mail-mi's full role description (talk about a long role-name/description) is that it seems like we are safe from any cult/3rd alignment at this point. I think we are likely at 8 players, 2 scum 6 town. No more funky alignment changes or third parties. I hope

What about Awaclus though? That was a suspicious and not necessarily pro-town hammer.

But if there is another anaander mianaai person that is town (ish?) that recruited N2 then the recruitment was likely successful?

This is all pure speculation at this point.

So if they are like what hypercube was recruited to they only win when town wins, not scum.

So I think the recruitee should claim, which makes them cult-aligned-winning-with-town IC.

So we could be 2 other, 4 town, 2 scum

e's theory would easily explain joth's question - and why Awaclus has been so eager to cult-hunt all game.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: jotheonah on February 06, 2019, 02:46:16 pm
I have a different theory that fits all the facts, but I'm going to sit on it at least until ash and UoS show up and say hi.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Awaclus on February 06, 2019, 02:55:41 pm
What about Awaclus though? That was a suspicious and not necessarily pro-town hammer.

It was a pro-town hammer.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on February 06, 2019, 03:05:32 pm
I'm pretty sure she (or Robz) targeted me night 1 with her "Enabler" power, though it didn't end up mattering.

Haddock replaced in for Galz during D1. Umbrage replaced in for Robz during D3. So unless you think Umbrage is also an enabler, I think you're confused over the subs here!
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on February 06, 2019, 03:09:44 pm
I am still firmly in the Space=town camp. In our discussions she was onto LL from early in D2, and the only reason she (and I) didn't vote is that it would have ended the day early. I don't know why she would have risked that if she was scum and we know that LL was (likely) the biggest baddest scum role. She could easily have just kept talking about someone else if she was hoping to lynch town.

This is true, but obviously I'd say so!

The thing that bothered me about LL's claim right off the bat was that I didn't see how the meaning of "bugged" fit with the effect he described.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Glooble on February 06, 2019, 03:14:26 pm
I'm pretty sure she (or Robz) targeted me night 1 with her "Enabler" power, though it didn't end up mattering.

Haddock replaced in for Galz during D1. Umbrage replaced in for Robz during D3. So unless you think Umbrage is also an enabler, I think you're confused over the subs here!

I was confused. Thanks.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on February 06, 2019, 03:16:36 pm
Also yeah, we have 1 dead scum, ladies. If we count the cult as town that's 2 scum out of 10 players, so 2 mislynches and a no-lynch before 5 player LYLO, and that's worst case. We shouldn't claim today.

If Ash dayvigs town that's just the no-lynch and we still shouldn't claim.

Ok, this is a weird post. This was after the LaLight flip. Why is UoS treating it like a given that there are 3 scum? I don't believe it was ever stated. I know we throw the word around waaaaay too much, but ... scumslip?

It's a good point, though I guess I've been subconsciously assuming 3 scums, and looking for partnery interactions (or lack of interactions) between pairs of remaining people, so I think it's quite a natural assumption to make. I certainly prefer this as a component of a case against Umbrage over calls to vote him just because he hasn't done much... I'm pretty sure it's too late in the game to be considering lurker lynches on principle.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on February 06, 2019, 03:27:40 pm
But I also think Haddock was a pretty good choice for scum to make, given that she was very unlikely to be a mislynch (almost no suspicion on her all game)

This I disagree on. Haddock was not cleared in any way. If I were scum, I think Haddock would be a prime candidate for a mislynch. I'm actually a little glad she was the nightkill because it's one less null read I have to look at today.

Hmmm... Another reason not to kill e is that it makes ash into a real IC. And I think people who have been around a while would be scared to death of IC ash.

I think that Haddock was on the townier end of the spectrum, but I can pretty much find reasons to suspect everyone at this point. The fact he backed down from pushing me earlier was major townpoints in his favour from my point of view, because scum!Haddock would know I can actually catch him with my mildly-obsessive wagon methods, whether he wants to agree with them or not.

I think it's important to remember that e flipping green would not completely IC Ash, unless e can explain how he knows that nothing like a redirect or other-PR-interaction could have given him a false reading. Even then we have the possibility that scum!Ash is a godfather. It's not that uncommon a trait for scum to have, even in normal games, so I don't think it's terribly unlikely for a scum player in an RMM to have it, is it?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on February 06, 2019, 03:31:16 pm
At the end of D3, UoS said we needed to do a full LL re-read.  I did that. I'll post it if we think we need it, but I don't want to clutter the thread with a huge post if its not necessary.

Be careful of the quoting rule, if it's from notes you've already made.

I think posting the kind of re-read where you just quote things LL said isn't useful, but a summary of conclusions from the re-read, with post numbers people can go and look up if they want to, is helpful for people who might have drawn different conclusions about the same interactions.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Awaclus on February 06, 2019, 03:33:36 pm
As far as the usefulness of long posts is concerned: the shorter it is, the more likely it is I'm going to read it.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on February 06, 2019, 03:40:13 pm
Basically two survivors who win with town, but lose if the other one is still alive.

I like it as a mechanic. Simple, elegant

In your scenario, could the cult win without town, if the rest of us are dead or converted, but they still manage to kill LL's faction?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Glooble on February 06, 2019, 03:46:41 pm
Basically two survivors who win with town, but lose if the other one is still alive.

I like it as a mechanic. Simple, elegant

In your scenario, could the cult win without town, if the rest of us are dead or converted, but they still manage to kill LL's faction?


According to hypercube, they still need to eliminate all enemies of the Radch.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on February 06, 2019, 03:49:07 pm
I did not find the LaLight reread very helpful. Up until she made the wackadoodle claim and backtracking revision, she was pretty innocuous. Although there was that section where she was confused about why the day ended early (Ashersky double hated), and then quite a bit of discussion about why Hyper didn't take the deal and stay alive (643).

Here is how and where she voted, if it helps to track her thoughts

#50- votes Mail-mi
#52- votes 2.718...
#191- votes Jotheonah
#233- votes Glooble
#271- votes Jotheonah
#401- votes Ash

________ D2

#588-votes 2.718...
#640-votes Robz (who is now UoS)
#665-votes 2.718
#672- makes the claim that he is A Shy Bugged Compulsive Visitor
#896-votes Mail-mi
#908- votes LaLight to end the D2
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: UmbrageOfSnow on February 06, 2019, 04:08:15 pm
On N1, how likely is it that mail-mi was the NK target? Like did she seem especially towny or PR-y at the time compared to everyone else?

Normally I don't think of mail-mi as a likely early NK target (no offense dead mail-mi), but was the general feeling in the game that that made more sense at the time?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Glooble on February 06, 2019, 04:14:33 pm
On N1, how likely is it that mail-mi was the NK target? Like did she seem especially towny or PR-y at the time compared to everyone else?

Normally I don't think of mail-mi as a likely early NK target (no offense dead mail-mi), but was the general feeling in the game that that made more sense at the time?

I think there was a fair amount of suspicion on mail-mi day 1. Probably not an especially tempting NK target. But Space might have been.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: UmbrageOfSnow on February 06, 2019, 04:15:33 pm
Ok, this is a weird post. This was after the LaLight flip. Why is UoS treating it like a given that there are 3 scum? I don't believe it was ever stated. I know we throw the word around waaaaay too much, but ... scumslip?

Because 13 players is going to be 3v10 the vast majority of the time. When I saw the game had 14 players in signups, I immediately assumed either
a) SK + 3 scum + 10 town
b) 3 scum + 11 town with a vig shot and a lot of scum power
c) 2 scum + 2 scum, + 10 town
Especially with RMM you can balance around other things, but those ratios are really hard to make a good game around and RMM is complicated. 4 team scum and 10 town is TERRIBLE for town, 2 team scum is TERRIBLE for scum.

3 scum is basically a given once it's clear we don't have 2 NKs every night, and the mostly-town cult wasn't going to change that.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: UmbrageOfSnow on February 06, 2019, 04:16:24 pm
On N1, how likely is it that mail-mi was the NK target? Like did she seem especially towny or PR-y at the time compared to everyone else?

Normally I don't think of mail-mi as a likely early NK target (no offense dead mail-mi), but was the general feeling in the game that that made more sense at the time?

I think there was a fair amount of suspicion on mail-mi day 1. Probably not an especially tempting NK target. But Space might have been.

Yeah, I'm checking that I'm not crazy for just dismissing the chances that mail-mi's BP was the reason for the lack of NK. Thanks.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: jotheonah on February 06, 2019, 04:21:44 pm
Ok, this is a weird post. This was after the LaLight flip. Why is UoS treating it like a given that there are 3 scum? I don't believe it was ever stated. I know we throw the word around waaaaay too much, but ... scumslip?

Because 13 players is going to be 3v10 the vast majority of the time. When I saw the game had 14 players in signups, I immediately assumed either
a) SK + 3 scum + 10 town
b) 3 scum + 11 town with a vig shot and a lot of scum power
c) 2 scum + 2 scum, + 10 town
Especially with RMM you can balance around other things, but those ratios are really hard to make a good game around and RMM is complicated. 4 team scum and 10 town is TERRIBLE for town, 2 team scum is TERRIBLE for scum.

3 scum is basically a given once it's clear we don't have 2 NKs every night, and the mostly-town cult wasn't going to change that.

It's not the assumption itself but the treatment of it as fact, rather than assumption.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: UmbrageOfSnow on February 06, 2019, 04:27:25 pm
I'm quite confident about 3 scum being the only reasonable number, if we lost due to early LYLO from there being 4 scum on a team I'd be happy to yell at faust about the game being horribly unbalanced.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: UmbrageOfSnow on February 06, 2019, 04:28:38 pm
What I really don't like, other than you being right that people throw around scumslip arguments all the time and they are almost never actually good arguments is how many people are nodding along and saying "You know, I was assuming there were 3 scum too but that is fishy."
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Glooble on February 06, 2019, 04:30:38 pm
2 cum would make sense if one of them was exceptionally powerful. Like, idk, a lynchproof dayvig godfather.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: UmbrageOfSnow on February 06, 2019, 04:31:49 pm
My guess about semi-loyal vig is that she could vig 2/3 factions, her own and one of the other two. I don't think we can assume whether the other was town or scum based on the wording, either way faust wouldn't say semi-disloyal I think, because the literal loyal faction is your own, so it's that and something else.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: UmbrageOfSnow on February 06, 2019, 04:36:50 pm
@WCD: So who do you think definitely couldn't be partners with LaLight? Do you think anyone looks like likely partners?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: jotheonah on February 06, 2019, 04:37:10 pm
Ok, this is a weird post. This was after the LaLight flip. Why is UoS treating it like a given that there are 3 scum? I don't believe it was ever stated. I know we throw the word around waaaaay too much, but ... scumslip?

Because 13 players is going to be 3v10 the vast majority of the time. When I saw the game had 14 players in signups, I immediately assumed either
a) SK + 3 scum + 10 town
b) 3 scum + 11 town with a vig shot and a lot of scum power
c) 2 scum + 2 scum, + 10 town
Especially with RMM you can balance around other things, but those ratios are really hard to make a good game around and RMM is complicated. 4 team scum and 10 town is TERRIBLE for town, 2 team scum is TERRIBLE for scum.

3 scum is basically a given once it's clear we don't have 2 NKs every night, and the mostly-town cult wasn't going to change that.

This feels much more like a justification after the fact than a super-fast thought process that you went through before you read that post but didn't bother to mention because you thought it was so obvious.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: UmbrageOfSnow on February 06, 2019, 04:39:50 pm
In that I typed up the numbers just now, sure. I'm saying I thought there were 3 team scum in this game WHEN IT WAS IN SIGNUPS.

It's not some super-fast thought process either, and it's weird that you're trying to paint it that way.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Awaclus on February 06, 2019, 04:40:46 pm
2 cum would make sense if one of them was exceptionally powerful. Like, idk, a lynchproof dayvig godfather.

Great, then let's lynch ashersky when there are 3 people alive and everyone else flipped town.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: UmbrageOfSnow on February 06, 2019, 04:41:08 pm
Vote: Joth
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on February 06, 2019, 04:44:15 pm
@WCD: So who do you think definitely couldn't be partners with LaLight? Do you think anyone looks like likely partners?

Good question. I didn’t get any real sense of someone who she couldn’t be partnered with.  There wasn’t anyone she avoided talking to or who she helped clear definitively.

I think that if she was trying to vote for her partner a little but not ever put them in danger, e is a likely partner. Couple of votes, but never a real wagon.

All in all, I don’t know how much we get from LaLyncing LaLight because it happened so early. I’m guessing that once the claim went sideways, her partners felt free to cut ties. Perhaps we need to go back and look who was on her wagon after the claim.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: jotheonah on February 06, 2019, 04:46:14 pm
You just contradicted yourself.


Because 13 players is going to be 3v10 the vast majority of the time. When I saw the game had 14 players in signups, I immediately assumed either
a) SK + 3 scum + 10 town
b) 3 scum + 11 town with a vig shot and a lot of scum power
c) 2 scum + 2 scum, + 10 town
Especially with RMM you can balance around other things, but those ratios are really hard to make a good game around and RMM is complicated. 4 team scum and 10 town is TERRIBLE for town, 2 team scum is TERRIBLE for scum.

3 scum is basically a given once it's clear we don't have 2 NKs every night, and the mostly-town cult wasn't going to change that.

In that I typed up the numbers just now, sure. I'm saying I thought there were 3 team scum in this game WHEN IT WAS IN SIGNUPS.

It's not some super-fast thought process either, and it's weird that you're trying to paint it that way.

So in the first quote, you said you were sure there were 3 scum only after we didn't have two nightkills, and that during signups you were considering the possibility of four. In the second post, you say you were already certain it was 3 during signups. So which is it? Why can't you even keep your cover story consistent across two posts?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: jotheonah on February 06, 2019, 04:46:40 pm
Messed up the quoting, so reposting for visibility:

So in the first quote, you said you were sure there were 3 scum only after we didn't have two nightkills, and that during signups you were considering the possibility of four. In the second post, you say you were already certain it was 3 during signups. So which is it? Why can't you even keep your cover story consistent across two posts?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: UmbrageOfSnow on February 06, 2019, 04:49:12 pm
WCD: weren't you in LYLO with scum LL in Adventure Time? Do you remember if she avoided voting for her partners in that game?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Awaclus on February 06, 2019, 04:49:29 pm
Vote: UoS
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on February 06, 2019, 04:49:55 pm
What I really don't like, other than you being right that people throw around scumslip arguments all the time and they are almost never actually good arguments is how many people are nodding along and saying "You know, I was assuming there were 3 scum too but that is fishy."

This wasn't directed at me, was it? Just in case it was, can I clarify that I said that I liked the "scumslip" argument better than the "lynch people who don't contribute anything" argument. Neither point makes a decent case at all, but at least with the scumslip idea, it was worth pointing out for others to consider with whatever other info they have from their own pov. I don't really think the same should be true of lurker lynches, though I'm also relieved you're able to contribute more now, because lack of participation by any one player does make scum-catching harder for everyone.

I do think scumslips are a valuable thing.. after all, LL was lynched over a scumslip not very long ago. I think she'd actually made two slips in quick succession: the "bugged" thing and the "involuntary alignment change" u-turn.

PPE several
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: UmbrageOfSnow on February 06, 2019, 04:52:04 pm
Seriously, Joth?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: UmbrageOfSnow on February 06, 2019, 04:54:07 pm
I did assume there would be 3 scum when it was in signups. I also thought it could be multiball, but I didn't really think that much about it. 3 scum is the default assumption and then 3 scum + SK is next most likely.

I was then sure when there weren't a mess of NKs.

Sure, you can read the words I wrote as a contradiction and then shout "A ha! Only scum would contradict herself!" But look at the thought process behind what I'm saying.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: UmbrageOfSnow on February 06, 2019, 04:56:15 pm
Space: It was directed at you, e, and WCD I think. It struck me as weird that 3 separate people jumped in with that same sentiment. That non-comital but don't want to derail this if it takes off stance.

Obviously not all such people are scum, but I'd basically prefer to lynch in you 3 + Joth at this point.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: jotheonah on February 06, 2019, 04:57:13 pm
Interesting. I'm not actually sure how many scum there are even now.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: UmbrageOfSnow on February 06, 2019, 04:57:30 pm
Also I would argue that botching a fake claim is a whole different thing than the type of scumslips people mean when they make scumslip arguments.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: UmbrageOfSnow on February 06, 2019, 04:57:53 pm
Interesting. I'm not actually sure how many scum there are even now.

Really?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: jotheonah on February 06, 2019, 04:59:27 pm
Interesting. I'm not actually sure how many scum there are even now.

Really?

Really. It wasn't in my PM or anything.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on February 06, 2019, 05:10:54 pm
WCD: weren't you in LYLO with scum LL in Adventure Time? Do you remember if she avoided voting for her partners in that game?

I don’t remember, but I’ll go look
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on February 06, 2019, 05:13:24 pm
Space: It was directed at you, e, and WCD I think. It struck me as weird that 3 separate people jumped in with that same sentiment. That non-comital but don't want to derail this if it takes off stance.

Wait, what did we do? I’m not following
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: UmbrageOfSnow on February 06, 2019, 07:08:49 pm
Interesting. I'm not actually sure how many scum there are even now.

Really?

Really. It wasn't in my PM or anything.
With the flips we've seen you think 2 or 4 scum are possible?

This feels disingenuous as hell to me from you. You aren't totally foreign to setup design.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: jotheonah on February 06, 2019, 07:45:36 pm
Four seems bastard. I wouldn’t roll out two. Not with a dayvig and a cult leader who kills when he fails to recruit.

But you’re right, Three is most likely. But I would not use the word “sure” like you just did.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Glooble on February 06, 2019, 08:23:57 pm
Joth, when you first suggested UoS’s sureness that there were three scum as a Scumslip it seemed reasonable to me, but her explanation doesn’t seem scummy to me at all. Up until this point we haven’t had a conversation about how many scum there are, but really any answer other than three seems unlikely, and I don’t actually think taking that as a given is suspicious.

I think maybe you’re the one starting to get tunnel vision now.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on February 06, 2019, 08:46:59 pm
WCD: weren't you in LYLO with scum LL in Adventure Time? Do you remember if she avoided voting for her partners in that game?

Reread complete....so, yes, he voted for his scum partner Hydrad consistently on Day 2 up to and including his lynch. So, its not unlike LaLight to vote for bus his buddies. It was only a two person scum team, so once Hydrad was lynched LL was in charge of his own fate and then won the day (by lynching me at the dentist!  I am still scarred!)
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on February 06, 2019, 08:48:30 pm
Joth, when you first suggested UoS’s sureness that there were three scum as a Scumslip it seemed reasonable to me, but her explanation doesn’t seem scummy to me at all. Up until this point we haven’t had a conversation about how many scum there are, but really any answer other than three seems unlikely, and I don’t actually think taking that as a given is suspicious.

I think maybe you’re the one starting to get tunnel vision now.

I don't disagree, Glooble. Although it has been useful to see UoS engage with us more fully.  Perhaps a better question is why is Awaclus voting for UoS?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Awaclus on February 06, 2019, 08:56:24 pm
Perhaps a better question is why is Awaclus voting for UoS?

Why not?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Awaclus on February 06, 2019, 08:57:21 pm
Eh I guess the post you're quoting and said you agree with answers that question. Vote: joth
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: jotheonah on February 06, 2019, 09:04:01 pm
Yes at some point I started doing it for the reactions— his and others. But votes on me are no bueno.

I do think Umbrage is scum though. The “slip” is just a piece of it. The other pieces are POE-related and his total lack of reads for the first three days of the game. I think the “Really, Joth”s feel like disingenuous appeal to emotion also.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: jotheonah on February 06, 2019, 09:06:22 pm
Awaclus and Glooble, go reread Umbrage. It won’t take long. See if you come to the same conclusions as me.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Awaclus on February 06, 2019, 09:12:12 pm
Awaclus and Glooble, go reread Umbrage. It won’t take long. See if you come to the same conclusions as me.

Sure.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Awaclus on February 06, 2019, 09:19:10 pm
Done.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: jotheonah on February 06, 2019, 09:23:59 pm
What is Awaclus like at LyLo? Do his posts finally start to exceed 10 words?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: jotheonah on February 06, 2019, 09:27:35 pm
I’m at L2, btw. With (apparently) two scum in the game.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Awaclus on February 06, 2019, 09:37:53 pm
What is Awaclus like at LyLo? Do his posts finally start to exceed 10 words?

That depends on the situation, there are examples of both.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on February 06, 2019, 09:41:29 pm
Okay, I reread UoS, too.  I don't know that I am ready to say he is scummy, but Joth is correct that this is her very first vote EVER in this game since she subbed just now on Joth. So, that isn't a bad reason to vote for UoS.  But Snow's vote on Joth....It seems to OMGUS and has no explanation.  And then Awaclus follows with a Joth vote with no explanation.

I am reading Joth as towny, and I think this is a dangerous game if y'all are town and just want to see what flies because could be lynched out from under us because of the hated part. Can we please not get so close just yet?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on February 06, 2019, 09:42:57 pm
Awaclus will answer direct questions, even the irrelevant ones. 
So, I know that he like tarantulas, but doesn't own one and that makes me like him a little more.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Awaclus on February 06, 2019, 09:53:15 pm
Can we please not get so close just yet?

I super wish there was a better option than joth but there isn't.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: jotheonah on February 06, 2019, 09:59:17 pm
Can we please not get so close just yet?

I super wish there was a better option than joth but there isn't.

There are several. But I super wish you'd explain what makes you think that. Also, let's definitely not think about ending the day before ashersky's even posted.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Awaclus on February 06, 2019, 10:04:02 pm
There are several. But I super wish you'd explain what makes you think that.

The fact that you're scummy.

Also, let's definitely not think about ending the day before ashersky's even posted.

It's just L-2, why does it sound like you're freaking over it so much?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: jotheonah on February 06, 2019, 10:24:43 pm
I’m really not. I just think if I clearly state it then quickhammwring scum can’t say “I forgot about hated” or “I didn’t know” tomorrow.

Also there was something final-sounding about your “I wish there was a better option, but”.

If I’m so scummy, why do you wish there was a better option? Commit to your read, man.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Awaclus on February 06, 2019, 10:27:39 pm
If I’m so scummy, why do you wish there was a better option? Commit to your read, man.

Don't you wish I had a better option?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: ashersky on February 07, 2019, 03:50:02 am
Sorry for the late arrival.

I favor joth’s thinking re: UoS.

I’m starting to wonder why 2.7 isn’t dying, but Haddock was a sensible target, so maybe he just hasn’t been useful enough during the day to warrant taking out?

UoS, if I were going to shoot you, what would your last post be?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 07, 2019, 06:47:59 am
I mean, PoE could make me vote UoS, but I am not a huge fan of the case that I see against them
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on February 07, 2019, 07:05:14 am
I agree, e. Although here is part of why I keep,stumbling with that....there isn’t much case against them because she hasn’t been engaging much until just now. So, not much material has been generated... and if the lack of material is the only real reason she not scum then maybe the lack of material is scummy. The lack of a vote D3 is notable.

I think Joth’s scumslip case about the certainty of the number of scum wasn’t the strongest, but it wasn’t all bad, but Snow’s resulting defensiveness and subsequent vote on Joth are not awesome, either.

So, that was a bunch of words that don’t result in any real conclusion...sorry. Ok, I think I end on this exchange making Joth more towny for looking for and pressing a scum read (albeit a weak one) and a slight scum lean on UoS for the reaction. I also find the Awaclus votes rather opportunistic.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: jotheonah on February 07, 2019, 07:28:24 am
If I’m so scummy, why do you wish there was a better option? Commit to your read, man.

Don't you wish I had a better option?

Nah, I know you have better options. Totally different.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on February 07, 2019, 07:38:06 am
I think I side with Glooble on the fact that joth is maybe tunneling UoS in an unjustified way because the "scumslip" case is not at all strong. I don't really blame UoS for an omgus vote there, and I'd consider a vote on joth at least as readily as one on UoS.

I do think that we're too far into the game to vote based on lurker lynches. We know that people posting a lot say more things that can be construed as scummy, so a lack of content isn't a lack of scumminess, but I don't think we want to foster a meta that a lack of content is evidence in itself of scumminess. (My personal feeling is that lack of engagement in a game should get a player subbed out much more quickly, but I'm not sure this forum has the luxury of having enough subs for that to be practical, so I trust that the mod did exactly what was appropriate in the circumstances).

Possibly-relevant info for WCD and any other newer players: subbing into a game is outright harder than being with it from the beginning. Also, most of the damage in terms of lack of wagon interaction was already done by Robz before UoS took over; from my point of view, the early-day wagons, where we have many more coloured-in names to look at, are the more informative ones, and it's not actually UoS's fault he wasn't voting there. Though the point about him not having voted on D3 is fair, and I recognise that.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Awaclus on February 07, 2019, 09:13:37 am
Nah, I know you have better options. Totally different.

That's not very convincing.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: ashersky on February 07, 2019, 09:43:29 am
I do generally support replacing out players who are not active enough, but the definition of active enough changes from mod to mod.  When I modded, I always threatened the inactivity modkill much more than it ever actually happened, because in general players played enough.  I would say UoS has played "enough" to not be modkilled, and therefore not be subject to a policy lynch, which is worse for town than the modkill, regardless of UoS's alignment.

I tend to like scumslip arguments more than the average players, partly because they do exist (we've seen them) and partly because it pushes players to defend themselves in such a way that other things can be noticed.  I would say that the number of scum scumslip is both unlikely and easy to make, which is of course contradictory, but true nonetheless.  What I don't think is likely is a cerebral player like UoS making that mistake.

That said, the inactivity has allowed UoS to mostly skate by, which is what scum likes.  If we were to lynch UoS, I'd feel okay with it.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: jotheonah on February 07, 2019, 09:51:44 am
The fact that UoS subbed in is part of what makes me read that post as a scumslip. It's one of his first posts of the day.

Look, let's consider the possibility that Robz888 rolled scum. We know that Robz's lurkiness was a product of IRL factors. We know from the V/LA thread and some of us know from the fact that Robz is IRL a public figure. So that's for sure a null tell.

We don't have the luxury of that kind of definitive knowledge about UoS's lurking, but I'm happy to take him at his word. We know that he has been modding Philosophy mafia, after all, and as Space said, catching up is hard.

So no one is making a lurker=scum argument on UoS or even a "policy lynch the lurker" argument.

But back to my original point. Let's imagine that UmbrageOfSnow kindly subs in to this crazy game and gets a PM. Oh, I'm scum! Now it's not so important to re-read this day 1 right away. My partners can catch me up on the important stuff and I can jump in and start posting.

That's a situation where scum would fall into the trap of assuming that the size of the scum team was known information when it wasn't.

Now maybe you don't buy that it's a slip. Fine. Forget the slip. It's nothing. But what had UoS done since subbing into this game? What votes has he made? What cases has he built or contributed to? Heck, what has he done today other than defend himself against my case? And what happens if we let him limp into LyLo without creating any information about himself at all?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: jotheonah on February 07, 2019, 09:56:48 am
On the other hand.

This is a weird town. We have e and ashersky, who are sort of tied together and who have been getting town passes for a single investigative result which could have been a scum gambit, either on a partner or a townie. We have Space and WCD, whose towniness is somewhat linked to each other because of their QT the other day. We have Glooble and I, who have a twin claim, think alike on a lot of things, and both seem to get alternately read as superobvtown and superscummy, often by the same people. We have Awaclus, who is an enigma.

So the temptation to gravitate toward UoS as the least complicated lynch is strong. UoS is outside of the web of RM weirdness that encompasses most of us. It makes his lynch less informational, and I think it makes it more likely that it will turn out to be a mislynch.

So I do actually have some misgivings.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Glooble on February 07, 2019, 10:02:02 am
How do you search a specific thread for some text? I figured out how to search a whole board, but not just the thread.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 07, 2019, 10:05:24 am
How do you search a specific thread for some text? I figured out how to search a whole board, but not just the thread.

I use Ctrl+f
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 07, 2019, 10:07:33 am
I think I would like UoS to claim. And then go from there
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Awaclus on February 07, 2019, 10:13:00 am
The fact that UoS subbed in is part of what makes me read that post as a scumslip. It's one of his first posts of the day.

Look, let's consider the possibility that Robz888 rolled scum. We know that Robz's lurkiness was a product of IRL factors. We know from the V/LA thread and some of us know from the fact that Robz is IRL a public figure. So that's for sure a null tell.

We don't have the luxury of that kind of definitive knowledge about UoS's lurking, but I'm happy to take him at his word. We know that he has been modding Philosophy mafia, after all, and as Space said, catching up is hard.

So no one is making a lurker=scum argument on UoS or even a "policy lynch the lurker" argument.

But back to my original point. Let's imagine that UmbrageOfSnow kindly subs in to this crazy game and gets a PM. Oh, I'm scum! Now it's not so important to re-read this day 1 right away. My partners can catch me up on the important stuff and I can jump in and start posting.

That's a situation where scum would fall into the trap of assuming that the size of the scum team was known information when it wasn't.

Now maybe you don't buy that it's a slip. Fine. Forget the slip. It's nothing. But what had UoS done since subbing into this game? What votes has he made? What cases has he built or contributed to? Heck, what has he done today other than defend himself against my case? And what happens if we let him limp into LyLo without creating any information about himself at all?

I don't know if this was supposed to be the more convincing argument in response to me, but it would help if the argument wasn't centered around "UoS is more scummy than me" when I already tried putting more pressure on him and all it achieved was that he kept making sense and you kept looking suspicious.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: jotheonah on February 07, 2019, 10:21:15 am
How do you search a specific thread for some text? I figured out how to search a whole board, but not just the thread.

I use Ctrl+f

Specifically, after clicking "All" by the page numbers.

I don't know if this was supposed to be the more convincing argument in response to me, but it would help if the argument wasn't centered around "UoS is more scummy than me" when I already tried putting more pressure on him and all it achieved was that he kept making sense and you kept looking suspicious.

It wasn't. I will get interested in convincing you of things and explaining my thought processes to you when you get interested in returning the favor.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Glooble on February 07, 2019, 10:21:57 am
I'm rereading Robz right now, and a lot of the discussion that isn't related to lurking is related to Robz's defense of mail-mi's suggestion of a mass-claim which, it turns out, was probably not motivated by pro-town sentiment (a mass claim would have been a great way for mail-mi to find the other Anander Mianaii.) That's not suspicious in and of itself, but it is kind of interesting.

I think continuing to focus on mail-mi so much--something Joth is doing--is somewhat scummy. I've often seen mail-mi make himself into an easy target in games past, perhaps especially when town.

Trying to do a reread during my lunchbreak and this post stuck out at me. At the time Robz posts this, Awaclus is the one who is pushing mail-mi's wagon a lot harder than joth. In fact, joth has already started to back off mail-mi. Seems a little odd that Robz doesn't attack her.


This is still odd to me. No one commented on it at the time, but since we have so little Robz behavior to scrutinize I think its worth another look.

Joth also makes a case against Robz at post 505 which might be worth revisiting.

Sorry to drum up all this ancient history but as has been pointed out, we don't have much else to go on.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Awaclus on February 07, 2019, 10:22:43 am
It wasn't. I will get interested in convincing you of things and explaining my thought processes to you when you get interested in returning the favor.

I'm very interested in returning the favor by voting elsewhere if you're town and you can convince me of it.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on February 07, 2019, 10:28:08 am
We have e and ashersky, who are sort of tied together and who have been getting town passes for a single investigative result which could have been a scum gambit, either on a partner or a townie.

If we flip e, it actually tells us virtually nothing about Ash.. so I know you said "sort of tied together", but I find that thinking that way is unhelpful. Better to analyse each player based on their own play.

We have Space and WCD, whose towniness is somewhat linked to each other because of their QT the other day.

This I agree with!

We have Glooble and I, who have a twin claim, think alike on a lot of things, and both seem to get alternately read as superobvtown and superscummy, often by the same people.

I did specifically make a post about how I found it remarkable that Ash was insisting that Glooble was scummy and you were townie.

On the other hand, my wagon analysis says it's also quite unlikely that neither of you is scum, though I only have an argument that works from my own point of view, not a useful case: there was a five-person mcmc wagon on D1, and either one of you two (or WCD at the very outside) is scum, or it's a five-town-on-town wagon, which is super-rare.

We have Awaclus, who is an enigma.

Yes, total agreement here too. Doesn't mean he's not scum, though.

So the temptation to gravitate toward UoS as the least complicated lynch is strong. UoS is outside of the web of RM weirdness that encompasses most of us. It makes his lynch less informational, and I think it makes it more likely that it will turn out to be a mislynch.

I don't quite see how "likely mislynch" follows from "simple odd one out", but I like the sentiment of not falling for the easy solution.

I've got some time later in which I can look some more at the wagons and see what I think we could get from various flips.

PPE 4
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: jotheonah on February 07, 2019, 10:29:04 am
It wasn't. I will get interested in convincing you of things and explaining my thought processes to you when you get interested in returning the favor.

I'm very interested in returning the favor by voting elsewhere if you're town and you can convince me of it.

Stop being lazy. It's not my job to convince you I'm town. Why did you hammer mail-mi?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Glooble on February 07, 2019, 10:29:45 am
On the other hand, at post 699, LaLight, who we now know was scum, starts pushing a wagon on Robz. This doesn't exonerate UoS of course, but it's another data point.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Glooble on February 07, 2019, 10:41:35 am
We have e and ashersky, who are sort of tied together and who have been getting town passes for a single investigative result which could have been a scum gambit, either on a partner or a townie.

If we flip e, it actually tells us virtually nothing about Ash.. so I know you said "sort of tied together", but I find that thinking that way is unhelpful. Better to analyse each player based on their own play.



That's... not true. If e is were to die and flip town, I would trust ash a lot more - especially if e's role supported her claim of "investigative rules can be faked, but not mine." If e were to flip scum, everyone would get a lot more suspicious of ash. It certainly wouldn't confirm anything, but I think its just flat out wrong to say it tells us virtually nothing.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Awaclus on February 07, 2019, 10:41:50 am
It's not my job to convince you I'm town.

Yes it is.

Stop being lazy. It's not my job to convince you I'm town. Why did you hammer mail-mi?

He was claimed not-town and it was clear that he was already lying about stuff to town to his faction's benefit at our expense.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: jotheonah on February 07, 2019, 10:44:17 am
It's not my job to convince you I'm town.

Yes it is.
Agree to disagree.

Quote
Stop being lazy. It's not my job to convince you I'm town. Why did you hammer mail-mi?

He was claimed not-town and it was clear that he was already lying about stuff to town to his faction's benefit at our expense.

And you didn't think it was prudent to allow more people to see and respond to his new claim before deciding how to proceed?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Glooble on February 07, 2019, 10:49:49 am
On the other hand, at post 699, LaLight, who we now know was scum, starts pushing a wagon on Robz. This doesn't exonerate UoS of course, but it's another data point.


Sorry, actually that was 640. Don't know how I got that wrong.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Glooble on February 07, 2019, 10:53:18 am
the idea behind wagoning Robz was that if he comes after vla and sees a wagon on him, if he is scum, he might've slipped, but whatever. I thought it was a good idea and try to contribute. Let's go back to vote: 2.71828.....


anyway, she doesn't stay on Robz for long before ashersky scolds her and she walks it back, saying she doesn't think Robz is scum and just wanted to put pressure on her. Could be a scum tactic to make it look like she and Robz aren't connected without any actual risk of a lynch. Something for Robz or LaLight to point back to after one of them has flipped.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on February 07, 2019, 10:55:23 am

Thursdays are my busy, busy teaching days so I won't be around again until the evening.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Awaclus on February 07, 2019, 10:56:39 am
It's not my job to convince you I'm town.

Yes it is.
Agree to disagree.

Fine, but then I'm not moving my vote.
Quote
Stop being lazy. It's not my job to convince you I'm town. Why did you hammer mail-mi?

He was claimed not-town and it was clear that he was already lying about stuff to town to his faction's benefit at our expense.

And you didn't think it was prudent to allow more people to see and respond to his new claim before deciding how to proceed?

It was better for one townie to make that decision than a bunch of people from different alignments.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: jotheonah on February 07, 2019, 11:00:47 am
It was better for one townie to make that decision than a bunch of people from different alignments.

Or maybe mail-mi dying was part of your win-con.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Awaclus on February 07, 2019, 11:06:31 am
It was better for one townie to make that decision than a bunch of people from different alignments.

Or maybe mail-mi dying was part of your win-con.

I don't think it was? It says "threats" to the Radch, which I don't think mail-mi counted as.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: jotheonah on February 07, 2019, 11:07:54 am
It was better for one townie to make that decision than a bunch of people from different alignments.

Or maybe mail-mi dying was part of your win-con.

I don't think it was? It says "threats" to the Radch, which I don't think mail-mi counted as.

Oh ok. So you're saying you hammered someone you knew wasn't scum? Bold move.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Awaclus on February 07, 2019, 11:09:40 am
Oh ok. So you're saying you hammered someone you knew wasn't scum? Bold move.

I didn't know for sure that mail-mi wasn't scum, but I did know for sure that he wasn't town.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: jotheonah on February 07, 2019, 11:21:20 am
Alright, I think it's time for my big theory.

So I was thinking about e's theory that there are two survivors who are mirrors of each other -- one recruits odd nights, the other even, etc. So part of mail-mi's role was "vig". ... We know we have another vig. Another part of his role was "bulletproof". We don't know we have another one of those, but we do have someone who is lynchproof, which would be a cute "mirror".

So, what if ash is the other survivor? Per e's theory, the other survivor's cult should have at least one successful recruit by now. I think that's Awaclus, hence the sketchy hammer.

What has to be true if ash is the survivor? Either e was misled, or e lied. e has been pretty insistent about not being misled and there's nothing in mail-mi's role that suggests investigation immunity. That strongly points to scum!e.

Now, why would scum e! claim a town result on ashersky? It's a gambit, but one that worked out pretty well for him. Plus it leaves him the option of claiming full cop if he ever gets in hot water (full cops claiming 1-shot is considered an acceptable town lie).

ashersky knows e's result is fishy, and maybe even has concluded e is scummy, but he can't exactly say "wait, hold up, I'm not town".

Anyway, the main reason for ash to keep his identity secret was to stay safe from mail-mi's faction. And mail-mi is dead, with no recruits. So, ash and Awaclus, you can go ahead and claim, and then we can lynch e. Assuming of course, we believe the claim that the cult(s) win with town.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Awaclus on February 07, 2019, 11:32:01 am
So, ash and Awaclus, you can go ahead and claim, and then we can lynch e.

I can't speak for ash but the part about me isn't true. I'm town and haven't been recruited for an alignment change.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Glooble on February 07, 2019, 11:56:57 am
Alright, I think it's time for my big theory.

So I was thinking about e's theory that there are two survivors who are mirrors of each other -- one recruits odd nights, the other even, etc. So part of mail-mi's role was "vig". ... We know we have another vig. Another part of his role was "bulletproof". We don't know we have another one of those, but we do have someone who is lynchproof, which would be a cute "mirror".

So, what if ash is the other survivor? Per e's theory, the other survivor's cult should have at least one successful recruit by now. I think that's Awaclus, hence the sketchy hammer.

What has to be true if ash is the survivor? Either e was misled, or e lied. e has been pretty insistent about not being misled and there's nothing in mail-mi's role that suggests investigation immunity. That strongly points to scum!e.

Now, why would scum e! claim a town result on ashersky? It's a gambit, but one that worked out pretty well for him. Plus it leaves him the option of claiming full cop if he ever gets in hot water (full cops claiming 1-shot is considered an acceptable town lie).

ashersky knows e's result is fishy, and maybe even has concluded e is scummy, but he can't exactly say "wait, hold up, I'm not town".

Anyway, the main reason for ash to keep his identity secret was to stay safe from mail-mi's faction. And mail-mi is dead, with no recruits. So, ash and Awaclus, you can go ahead and claim, and then we can lynch e. Assuming of course, we believe the claim that the cult(s) win with town.

I suggested yesterday that Ash might be the cult leader and everyone ignored it.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: Glooble on February 07, 2019, 12:09:06 pm
Alternatiely. Ash could be the cult leader, and e her starting cult member. That would make perfect sense with her powers- lynchproof is great for a character whose death would result in the death of a whole faction. 1-shot vig is great for the leader of a faction who needs one specific town player to die in order to fulfill their win-con.

Did you miss this, joth?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: jotheonah on February 07, 2019, 12:13:18 pm
Alternately. Ash could be the cult leader, and e her starting cult member. That would make perfect sense with her powers- lynchproof is great for a character whose death would result in the death of a whole faction. 1-shot vig is great for the leader of a faction who needs one specific town player to die in order to fulfill their win-con.

Did you miss this, joth?

I forgot about it, but I guess we're thinking alike again. But e can't be the recruit if ash is an even-night cult leader. e made the claim on Day 2.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: Glooble on February 07, 2019, 12:16:09 pm
Alternately. Ash could be the cult leader, and e her starting cult member. That would make perfect sense with her powers- lynchproof is great for a character whose death would result in the death of a whole faction. 1-shot vig is great for the leader of a faction who needs one specific town player to die in order to fulfill their win-con.

Did you miss this, joth?

I forgot about it, but I guess we're thinking alike again. But e can't be the recruit if ash is an even-night cult leader. e made the claim on Day 2.

True, though we didn't have that information then.

Any thoughts on LaLight's behavior toward Robz?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: jotheonah on February 07, 2019, 12:25:58 pm
Alternately. Ash could be the cult leader, and e her starting cult member. That would make perfect sense with her powers- lynchproof is great for a character whose death would result in the death of a whole faction. 1-shot vig is great for the leader of a faction who needs one specific town player to die in order to fulfill their win-con.

Did you miss this, joth?

I forgot about it, but I guess we're thinking alike again. But e can't be the recruit if ash is an even-night cult leader. e made the claim on Day 2.

True, though we didn't have that information then.

Any thoughts on LaLight's behavior toward Robz?

It's consistent with how LaLight plays scum to engineer minor interactions with partners early on. But I don't think it's a strong tell in either direction.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: jotheonah on February 07, 2019, 12:29:05 pm
Okay.

I am not Ifian Wos. I am Anaaner Mianaai. I tried to recruit hypercube on N1. Everything that she said about my role is true--I win with town, and I must also be the only Anaander Mianaai left alive to win. From the wording in my PM, it seems like the other Anaander Mianaai does not win with town.

The reason that I claimed odd-night cop is that I can only recruit people on odd nights. There are 2 ways that I can recruit people: either I can try to force them into it or try to convince them to join me. If I use the first option, the player is given a choice: either join me, or die at the end of the day. If I use the second option, a QT opens up between me and them during the next day, wherein I can try to persuade them to join me.

My power does not work on non-Radch aligned people. I was planning on using it as a copping power--that's why I targeted hypercube. If she joined me, I knew that she had been town. If she didn't join me and didn't die, then I knew she is scum. However she decided to die instead, which is super lame.

tl;dr I win with town. We need to find the scum and not waste a lynch here. Also I'm pretty sure the other Anaander Mianaai(s) don't win with the town, though I'm not certain on that.

I should add that I can win ONLY with town. My wincon says the same thing as the town PM, except with the added part that the other Anaander Mianaai must be dead.

This suggests to me that the other Aanander is not scum, since, if she were, mail-mi's win condition would be identical to town's.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: jotheonah on February 07, 2019, 12:30:36 pm
It's also worth noting that in mail-mi's claim, he said his power actually could be used as a cop ability, albeit a slow one. So that's another thing it would have been nice to consider before hammering him, Awaclus.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Glooble on February 07, 2019, 12:43:20 pm
vote: Awaclus while acknowledging that this also makes me look very bad for not unvoting when I could have saved mail-mi.


I have to admit the "keep mail-mi alive to use her as a cop" angle didn't occur to me. I could see it also not occurring to Awaclus who has been pretty adamant that the cult is not pro-town despite all evidence to the contrary. On the other hand, I feel kind of silly for overlooking that part of mail-mi's claim, and I think it's equally, if not more likely, that scum!Awaclus saw an opportunity to wipe out an investigative role with cover and took it.


Combine with Awaclus's behavior in the lead up to the LaLight lynch, which I still find scummy.


I like this better than UoS.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Awaclus on February 07, 2019, 12:48:11 pm
vote: Awaclus while acknowledging that this also makes me look very bad for not unvoting when I could have saved mail-mi.


I have to admit the "keep mail-mi alive to use her as a cop" angle didn't occur to me. I could see it also not occurring to Awaclus who has been pretty adamant that the cult is not pro-town despite all evidence to the contrary. On the other hand, I feel kind of silly for overlooking that part of mail-mi's claim, and I think it's equally, if not more likely, that scum!Awaclus saw an opportunity to wipe out an investigative role with cover and took it.


Combine with Awaclus's behavior in the lead up to the LaLight lynch, which I still find scummy.


I like this better than UoS.

There was no reason to believe that he really had a cop ability.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Awaclus on February 07, 2019, 12:49:09 pm
If anything, the fact that "keep mail-mi alive to use her as a cop" angle occurred to joth makes joth more suspicious.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: jotheonah on February 07, 2019, 12:50:37 pm
The point I'm making is that there were myriad good reasons not to quickhammer there. And no good reasons to quickhammer.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Awaclus on February 07, 2019, 12:53:07 pm
The point I'm making is that there were myriad good reasons not to quickhammer there. And no good reasons to quickhammer.

There was a good reason to quickhammer: we got a confirmed non-townie lynched. He was clearly trying to manipulate people into unvoting him, and I had no way of knowing whether or not he had partners on his wagon that would unvote and pretend to have been convinced by his claim, so I took the opportunity while I had it.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Glooble on February 07, 2019, 12:55:10 pm
vote: Awaclus while acknowledging that this also makes me look very bad for not unvoting when I could have saved mail-mi.


I have to admit the "keep mail-mi alive to use her as a cop" angle didn't occur to me. I could see it also not occurring to Awaclus who has been pretty adamant that the cult is not pro-town despite all evidence to the contrary. On the other hand, I feel kind of silly for overlooking that part of mail-mi's claim, and I think it's equally, if not more likely, that scum!Awaclus saw an opportunity to wipe out an investigative role with cover and took it.


Combine with Awaclus's behavior in the lead up to the LaLight lynch, which I still find scummy.


I like this better than UoS.

There was no reason to believe that he really had a cop ability.

Except we kinda know that she did.

She tried to recruit hypercube, hypercube refused, hypercube died. All that is known information. The only thing we don't know is what happens if she tries to recruit scum. So think about it.

If the power worked the same way for scum as it does for town it would be extremely broken, especially considering we might have two of them in the game. So it seems pretty obvious that it doesn't work on scum. So if someone refused the alignment change, but survived, mail-mi would know that person was scum.

Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: jotheonah on February 07, 2019, 01:02:01 pm
Wait I just thought of kind of a big problem with my own ash theory. Never mind about any of it, it's probably wrong.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Awaclus on February 07, 2019, 01:02:09 pm
Except we kinda know that she did.

She tried to recruit hypercube, hypercube refused, hypercube died. All that is known information. The only thing we don't know is what happens if she tries to recruit scum. So think about it.

If the power worked the same way for scum as it does for town it would be extremely broken, especially considering we might have two of them in the game. So it seems pretty obvious that it doesn't work on scum. So if someone refused the alignment change, but survived, mail-mi would know that person was scum.

Why would a cop be less broken than a vig?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Glooble on February 07, 2019, 01:03:40 pm
Except we kinda know that she did.

She tried to recruit hypercube, hypercube refused, hypercube died. All that is known information. The only thing we don't know is what happens if she tries to recruit scum. So think about it.

If the power worked the same way for scum as it does for town it would be extremely broken, especially considering we might have two of them in the game. So it seems pretty obvious that it doesn't work on scum. So if someone refused the alignment change, but survived, mail-mi would know that person was scum.

Why would a cop be less broken than a vig?

If it worked the same way for scum as it does for town it would be a big. It would either kill scum or convert them to a town-aligned faction. Either way it eliminates one scum.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Glooble on February 07, 2019, 01:03:59 pm
Sorry, vig, not big.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Awaclus on February 07, 2019, 01:04:46 pm
I think it's pretty ridiculous that you're accusing me of being scum or cult or something for hammering mail-mi when both of you joined the wagon when he was still a claimed town cop and I joined it after he changed his claim into non-town.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Awaclus on February 07, 2019, 01:05:03 pm
Except we kinda know that she did.

She tried to recruit hypercube, hypercube refused, hypercube died. All that is known information. The only thing we don't know is what happens if she tries to recruit scum. So think about it.

If the power worked the same way for scum as it does for town it would be extremely broken, especially considering we might have two of them in the game. So it seems pretty obvious that it doesn't work on scum. So if someone refused the alignment change, but survived, mail-mi would know that person was scum.

Why would a cop be less broken than a vig?

If it worked the same way for scum as it does for town it would be a big. It would either kill scum or convert them to a town-aligned faction. Either way it eliminates one scum.

TIL vigs are more powerful than cops.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: jotheonah on February 07, 2019, 01:12:35 pm
I think it's pretty ridiculous that you're accusing me of being scum or cult or something for hammering mail-mi when both of you joined the wagon when he was still a claimed town cop and I joined it after he changed his claim into non-town.

You are really cherry-picking a lot with your language to avoid dealing with the reality that you hammered someone you didn't think was part of the scum team. Why is non-town here so much more relevant than non-scum?

More to the point, I voted after a scummy, not-believable cop claim. You voted after a much more believable third-party claim and didn't give the town much chance to consider the implications of that claim. This is despite many people saying many times throughout the day that we shouldn't be cult-hunting and should be trying to use our lynches on scum.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Awaclus on February 07, 2019, 01:18:17 pm
You are really cherry-picking a lot with your language to avoid dealing with the reality that you hammered someone you didn't think was part of the scum team. Why is non-town here so much more relevant than non-scum?

More to the point, I voted after a scummy, not-believable cop claim. You voted after a much more believable third-party claim and didn't give the town much chance to consider the implications of that claim. This is despite many people saying many times throughout the day that we shouldn't be cult-hunting and should be trying to use our lynches on scum.

I didn't think he was a part of the scum team, but I also didn't know for sure that he wasn't, I only knew for sure that he was non-town. That's why the non-town here is so much more relevant.

I gave town (myself) as much chance to consider the implications of that claim as I needed.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: jotheonah on February 07, 2019, 01:23:30 pm
You are really cherry-picking a lot with your language to avoid dealing with the reality that you hammered someone you didn't think was part of the scum team. Why is non-town here so much more relevant than non-scum?

More to the point, I voted after a scummy, not-believable cop claim. You voted after a much more believable third-party claim and didn't give the town much chance to consider the implications of that claim. This is despite many people saying many times throughout the day that we shouldn't be cult-hunting and should be trying to use our lynches on scum.

I didn't think he was a part of the scum team, but I also didn't know for sure that he wasn't, I only knew for sure that he was non-town. That's why the non-town here is so much more relevant.

I gave town (myself) as much chance to consider the implications of that claim as I needed.

TIL Awaclus is not only town, but the whole town. What are the rest of us even doing here?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Awaclus on February 07, 2019, 01:26:58 pm
TIL Awaclus is not only town, but the whole town. What are the rest of us even doing here?

As I already said, it's much better for town if I make decisions on my own instead of letting a bunch of people of unconfirmed alignments chime in.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on February 07, 2019, 01:38:31 pm
Basically two survivors who win with town, but lose if the other one is still alive.

I like it as a mechanic. Simple, elegant

In your scenario, could the cult win without town, if the rest of us are dead or converted, but they still manage to kill LL's faction?


According to hypercube, they still need to eliminate all enemies of the Radch.

The current cult-heavy discussion just reminded me of this.. I meant to go back to it, because you're missing my point.

The question was not "could the cult win with scum", it was "could the cult win on its own by eliminating (red) scum after absorbing all the remaining townies"?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Glooble on February 07, 2019, 01:49:04 pm
Basically two survivors who win with town, but lose if the other one is still alive.

I like it as a mechanic. Simple, elegant

In your scenario, could the cult win without town, if the rest of us are dead or converted, but they still manage to kill LL's faction?


According to hypercube, they still need to eliminate all enemies of the Radch.

The current cult-heavy discussion just reminded me of this.. I meant to go back to it, because you're missing my point.

The question was not "could the cult win with scum", it was "could the cult win on its own by eliminating (red) scum after absorbing all the remaining townies"?

Ok now I understand your question.

Theoretically I guess they could.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on February 07, 2019, 03:01:29 pm
The question was not "could the cult win with scum", it was "could the cult win on its own by eliminating (red) scum after absorbing all the remaining townies"?

Ok now I understand your question.

Theoretically I guess they could.

Okay, so if that is the case, I think Awaclus hammering Mail-mi wasn't so bad, because in theory it reduces the rate at which townies stop being townies.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on February 07, 2019, 03:02:38 pm
Space count, up to #1435:

UmbrageOfSnow (1): jotheonah
jotheonah (2): UmbrageOfSnow, Awaclus
Awaclus (1): Glooble
Not Voting (4): SpaceAnemone, 2.71828....., WestCoastDidds, ashersky
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: ashersky on February 07, 2019, 04:12:43 pm
A few things:

—joth’s theory was super creative, but incorrect.
—this fight with Awa is distracting.
—how does no one have any useful information to share from the night phases by now?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 07, 2019, 04:21:35 pm
A few things:

—joth’s theory was super creative, but incorrect.
—this fight with Awa is distracting.
—how does no one have any useful information to share from the night phases by now?

What ashersky said.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Glooble on February 07, 2019, 04:25:26 pm
I have already shared my only piece of night phase information.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 07, 2019, 04:32:23 pm
I have already shared my only piece of night phase information.

The redirection bit?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: jotheonah on February 07, 2019, 04:34:43 pm
I was roleblocked last night for sure, and the night before possibly.

Scum has decided to mess with me a lot this game and I don't know why but I guess I should feel flattered.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: jotheonah on February 07, 2019, 04:37:35 pm
So no one else is bothered by Awaclus's hammer yesterday? Really?

It really grinds my gears that when I SAY things that people find scummy they're all over me with the votes but when Awaclus DOES things that are scummy everybody's just "Oh, Awaclus is at it again, that loveable scamp!"
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Awaclus on February 07, 2019, 04:39:11 pm
So no one else is bothered by Awaclus's hammer yesterday? Really?

It really grinds my gears that when I SAY things that people find scummy they're all over me with the votes but when Awaclus DOES things that are scummy everybody's just "Oh, Awaclus is at it again, that loveable scamp!"

It wasn't scummy.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Glooble on February 07, 2019, 04:39:27 pm
I have already shared my only piece of night phase information.

The redirection bit?

That, and the fact that I got a message from faust night 2 saying one of my powers had been enhanced for one night only. Specifically, for night 2 my power would have redirected any action, including a kill. But there was no one voting for me, so it wouldn't have worked anyway.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 07, 2019, 04:40:11 pm
So no one else is bothered by Awaclus's hammer yesterday? Really?

It really grinds my gears that when I SAY things that people find scummy they're all over me with the votes but when Awaclus DOES things that are scummy everybody's just "Oh, Awaclus is at it again, that loveable scamp!"

I was definitely bothered by the hammer when it happened, but then I mellowed out thinking it through a bit over the night.

I think Awaclus is definitely in the top half of suspects for me, but I don't want to lynch them today. At this point
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 07, 2019, 04:40:57 pm
Right now I just want UoS to claim
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: UmbrageOfSnow on February 07, 2019, 04:47:56 pm
UoS, if I were going to shoot you, what would your last post be?

Please announce this non-hypothetically if you're going to do it. I'd give a full claim (and I'd beg for a bit more time to actually make better last reads, but if you have another dayvig shot it would make more sense to do it about halfway through the day, not near the end of the day like on Day 1.)
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: UmbrageOfSnow on February 07, 2019, 04:50:01 pm
I'm not claiming today unless I'm actually at L-1 with intent. (Or intent to dayvig, and frankly I'm not trusting it if Ash just says "Intent to dayvig" in the next post.)
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: jotheonah on February 07, 2019, 04:53:44 pm
Right now I just want UoS to claim

I'm not claiming today unless I'm actually at L-1 with intent. (Or intent to dayvig, and frankly I'm not trusting it if Ash just says "Intent to dayvig" in the next post.)

e, you know what you must do to get what you want.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: UmbrageOfSnow on February 07, 2019, 04:55:35 pm
I don't really blame UoS for an omgus vote there
It's unhelpful to use OMGUS to refer to any time someone votes someone voting for them I think. There's something to the way Joth went after me, and the sudden jump into what looks like extreme confbias that I think is more likely to come from scum trying to push someone they decided looks vulnerable. I expect town to get that confbias feeling in a different way. It's very possible to get reads from the how of how people go after you, and that shouldn't be labeled OMGUS in my opinion.


But I really appreciate the rest of your post, like on a personal level

I don't like being referred to as a lurker lynch (and all the related stuff about "rereading" me. Robz lurked into replacement and then I replaced into a complicated game while I was probably a bit too busy for it and then the day ended 3 days earlier than I expected before I had time to get into it. The point of lynching lurkers is because you don't want them being unreadable in LYLO since they've gone all game without saying anything.

I remember a really frustrating game where faust tunneled me over less activity than usual due to real life stuff and it just really felt frustrating outside the confines of the game itself, so thanks.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: UmbrageOfSnow on February 07, 2019, 04:58:46 pm
Now maybe you don't buy that it's a slip. Fine. Forget the slip. It's nothing. But what had UoS done since subbing into this game? What votes has he made? What cases has he built or contributed to? Heck, what has he done today other than defend himself against my case? And what happens if we let him limp into LyLo without creating any information about himself at all?

And how likely do you think that is?

Also, how much have you played with Robz in the past?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Awaclus on February 07, 2019, 04:59:59 pm
Vote: UoS
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: UmbrageOfSnow on February 07, 2019, 05:10:43 pm
It's irrelevant whether or not Awaclus' hammer was pro-town or not. The question is only whether or not it makes her scum.

I think she'd have hammered there as either alignment given her play earlier in the day. The hammer should be null regardless of people's emotions about it. There might be an argument to be made about whether or not Awaclus' 3rd party hunting would be more likely to come from town or scum, but based on some memories of the past and without bothering to check, I think that's slightly towny.

Awaclus is frustrating to read, that doesn't mean she can't be correctly lynched as scum. I think it's more about looking at thought process than "X thing is scummy/anti-town."

PPE: Like this trying to force a claim for no reason. It's obnoxious, but frankly different standards apply to different players if we're trying to get good reads. I'd find it scummy if some people did it, I'm trying to figure out how I feel about e here, but from Awaclus (or like if Ash threatens to dayvig me in the next post) I'm not really surprised.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: jotheonah on February 07, 2019, 05:15:23 pm
Now maybe you don't buy that it's a slip. Fine. Forget the slip. It's nothing. But what had UoS done since subbing into this game? What votes has he made? What cases has he built or contributed to? Heck, what has he done today other than defend himself against my case? And what happens if we let him limp into LyLo without creating any information about himself at all?

And how likely do you think that is?

Also, how much have you played with Robz in the past?

(1) At this rate, very likely.
(2) A lot, but it's been a while.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: UmbrageOfSnow on February 07, 2019, 05:22:26 pm
WCD: weren't you in LYLO with scum LL in Adventure Time? Do you remember if she avoided voting for her partners in that game?

Reread complete....so, yes, he voted for his scum partner Hydrad consistently on Day 2 up to and including his lynch. So, its not unlike LaLight to vote for bus his buddies. It was only a two person scum team, so once Hydrad was lynched LL was in charge of his own fate and then won the day (by lynching me at the dentist!  I am still scarred!)

And in Czech, the next game, where LL was scum again, she tried to avoid interacting with her partners. (Also LaLight is practically addicted to voting for her buddies and was trying to break that meta in Czech, while kind of hilariously lying to you about it in Adventure Time.) But in both games there's kind of an artificiality to LL's partner interactions or lack thereof and it's something that I was wanting to put some time into and didn't have time for Yesterday.

Notably, this is something I expected Joth to be looking at given he was partners with scum!LL in Czech. (I also was kind of suspecting you for not looking at this, but not so much given how you answered my question.)
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: UmbrageOfSnow on February 07, 2019, 05:23:18 pm
And how likely do you think that is?
(1) At this rate, very likely.
Based on what, exactly?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: jotheonah on February 07, 2019, 05:25:52 pm
And how likely do you think that is?
(1) At this rate, very likely.
Based on what, exactly?
Why mess with what works?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: UmbrageOfSnow on February 07, 2019, 05:27:44 pm
Also, how much have you played with Robz in the past?
(2) A lot, but it's been a while.

It's interesting that Joth chose to just drop this in that big post:
Look, let's consider the possibility that Robz888 rolled scum. We know that Robz's lurkiness was a product of IRL factors. We know from the V/LA thread and some of us know from the fact that Robz is IRL a public figure. So that's for sure a null tell.

Like so while admitting IRL could be a factor for me, Joth is quick to dismiss that I am likely to post more and wants to scumread me for lurking, but also wants to preemptively say Robz lurking is null.

To new players: Robz traditionally lurks and is generally useless as town and effort from him used to be considered scummy. I think he's been trying to change that and we do know there were IRL reasons for Robz lurking, but look at the way Joth slips this in here, before anyone considers townreading Robz lurking.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: jotheonah on February 07, 2019, 05:28:23 pm
WCD: weren't you in LYLO with scum LL in Adventure Time? Do you remember if she avoided voting for her partners in that game?

Reread complete....so, yes, he voted for his scum partner Hydrad consistently on Day 2 up to and including his lynch. So, its not unlike LaLight to vote for bus his buddies. It was only a two person scum team, so once Hydrad was lynched LL was in charge of his own fate and then won the day (by lynching me at the dentist!  I am still scarred!)

And in Czech, the next game, where LL was scum again, she tried to avoid interacting with her partners. (Also LaLight is practically addicted to voting for her buddies and was trying to break that meta in Czech, while kind of hilariously lying to you about it in Adventure Time.) But in both games there's kind of an artificiality to LL's partner interactions or lack thereof and it's something that I was wanting to put some time into and didn't have time for Yesterday.

Notably, this is something I expected Joth to be looking at given he was partners with scum!LL in Czech. (I also was kind of suspecting you for not looking at this, but not so much given how you answered my question.)

In Czech mafia I asked LaLight to bus me hard because it was very obvious I was going down after Dylan and I botched that claim and he was the only one not tainted. Honestly his LyLo would have gone better if he'd bussed us more earlier, but he didn't really. IIRC, Jimmm caught onto that.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: UmbrageOfSnow on February 07, 2019, 05:31:53 pm
It's still bugging me that people are treating Jimmm's correct vote on LaLight as being the only decisive factor because I decided to vote first. LYLO stretched on forever and in those situations both town have to vote correctly.

Also LYLO wouldn't have gone better for you if he'd bussed more, but I was talking about LaLight's self meta, which I checked and he did bring up in the scum QT as well as talking about at the end of the game.

Anyway, this has nothing to do with the point I was making.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: UmbrageOfSnow on February 07, 2019, 05:32:41 pm
Given LaLight's self-meta and Joth just having finished being scum partners with LaLight, it is bizarre that Joth wasn't looking at LaLight's partner interactions.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: jotheonah on February 07, 2019, 05:34:46 pm
Also, how much have you played with Robz in the past?
(2) A lot, but it's been a while.

It's interesting that Joth chose to just drop this in that big post:
Look, let's consider the possibility that Robz888 rolled scum. We know that Robz's lurkiness was a product of IRL factors. We know from the V/LA thread and some of us know from the fact that Robz is IRL a public figure. So that's for sure a null tell.

Like so while admitting IRL could be a factor for me, Joth is quick to dismiss that I am likely to post more and wants to scumread me for lurking, but also wants to preemptively say Robz lurking is null.

To new players: Robz traditionally lurks and is generally useless as town and effort from him used to be considered scummy. I think he's been trying to change that and we do know there were IRL reasons for Robz lurking, but look at the way Joth slips this in here, before anyone considers townreading Robz lurking.

I don't know if it's coming across, but I am trying to be very charitable about your lurking re: IRL stuff. And if I've come off not that way, I apologize. It's a game. We all have as much time for it as we have, and it can't always be predicted. And, like, I didn't want to make a big thing out of it because I don't know if it breaks the ongoing game rule, but I am backup modding a game for you and that involves a certain amount of telling each other about our availability. So I am not saying, nor have ever said, that lurking for you is a scum tell or is scummy. And I'm sorry if that wasn't clear.

All that said, you are a good, smart player and good, smart players use the opportunities in front of them. Being busy gave you an opportunity to be not informational and hard to read. I think you've been leaning into it, and I didn't want to give you a free pass to keep doing that. Now, since you have had a wagon and a day-vig threat on you, you have started to contribute more. And I appreciate that. But we're pretty far into the game, and I don't think we have the luxury to say "give him another day to scumhunt and show his towniness".
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: jotheonah on February 07, 2019, 05:36:22 pm
Given LaLight's self-meta and Joth just having finished being scum partners with LaLight, it is bizarre that Joth wasn't looking at LaLight's partner interactions.

You obviously aren't familiar with my meta, which involves not putting very much stock in other people's metas.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: jotheonah on February 07, 2019, 05:40:22 pm
E, why did you use your one and only cop shot on N1, when you had a relatively small amount of information and a relatively large player pool?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: UmbrageOfSnow on February 07, 2019, 05:45:37 pm
This is charitable?
And how likely do you think that is?
(1) At this rate, very likely.
Based on what, exactly?
Why mess with what works?

I do take this a bit personally, but rest assured I can leave this stuff in this game.
a) Because I think you are manipulative scum
b) Because even if you are town, town is sometimes manipulative and that's the game. I think there are plenty of people I've been furious at during a game and I have fond memories of them once the game is over. I think I once wrote "I want to strangle faust" in my private notes in one game, and I really quite like faust!

Also we shouldn't talk about that other game that may or may not exist, but I absolutely give priority to modding over playing and I think I can/should say that now that you've brought it up. I have an enormous amount of shame/guilt about previously flaking while modding, that was due to some pretty serious real life stuff and it's something that does bother me on an emotional level and not something I want to do again.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: UmbrageOfSnow on February 07, 2019, 05:50:55 pm
Now, since you have had a wagon and a day-vig threat on you, you have started to contribute more. And I appreciate that. But we're pretty far into the game, and I don't think we have the luxury to say "give him another day to scumhunt and show his towniness".

This ought to be a bad reason to think I won't keep posting. Also everyone is going to focus on addressing the points against them when they have a substantial wagon and a dayvig threat and it's super disingenuous to imply that is reason to think they won't contribute anything else. I'm the center of attention today and that's fine, I should be allowed to talk about your case against me.

And I think I've presented a pretty good case on you based on your case on me, which is scumhunting.

Also, I am contributing other thoughts which you are quite content to ignore.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: UmbrageOfSnow on February 07, 2019, 05:51:40 pm
The most frustrating thing about Awaclus' hammer is that it ended the day 3 days early.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: ashersky on February 07, 2019, 05:52:23 pm
Awaclus’s hammer isn’t scummy because you have to retrospectively look at it.

Like, I’m annoyed because I announced intent and then he stole the hammer from me. But that’s not scummy. MM claimed 3rd party, so he didn’t hammer claimed town PR or anything. And regardless of what one may think, removing third parties where we can’t be sure what they’ll do is in town’s best interest, so even if Awa is scum, the hammer wasn’t bad.

I feel like a lot of what you are “finding” scummy is just the normal, infuriating nature of playing mafia with Awaclus.  I’m not saying he’s town because I can never ever read him, but that’s just the way it is. He’s usually fine to lynch at any time, but there’s never a good reason for it (outside of investigation results)..
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: UmbrageOfSnow on February 07, 2019, 05:52:58 pm
Given LaLight's self-meta and Joth just having finished being scum partners with LaLight, it is bizarre that Joth wasn't looking at LaLight's partner interactions.

You obviously aren't familiar with my meta, which involves not putting very much stock in other people's metas.
Weak
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: ashersky on February 07, 2019, 05:53:42 pm
The most frustrating thing about Awaclus' hammer is that it ended the day 3 days early.

Might be frustrating for lurkers, but there’s nothing inherently wrong with ending the day at that or any point once folks have said their piece.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: ashersky on February 07, 2019, 05:54:06 pm
vote: UoS

Happy to apply more pressure the old fashioned way.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: jotheonah on February 07, 2019, 05:54:24 pm
UoS: As much as it might seem otherwise, I’m not married to my case on you. When I get a case in my head, I go all in to try to prove it, like when you’re assigned to argue a position in a debate. But if someone, even you, were to come up with a more convincing alternate wagon I’d be in. Right now, you seem like the most likely scum from where I’m sitting. Your lack of content contributes to that, but not so much because it’s scummy but because I look at your posts and see nothing towny.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Awaclus on February 07, 2019, 05:55:29 pm
The most frustrating thing about Awaclus' hammer is that it ended the day 3 days early.

A hammer is never late. Nor is it early. It arrived precisely when I meant it to.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: UmbrageOfSnow on February 07, 2019, 05:56:22 pm
The most frustrating thing about Awaclus' hammer is that it ended the day 3 days early.

Might be frustrating for lurkers, but there’s nothing inherently wrong with ending the day at that or any point once folks have said their piece.

And yeah, normally I'm in favor of ending days early, but I was counting on those 3 days and said so.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: UmbrageOfSnow on February 07, 2019, 05:57:21 pm
The most frustrating thing about Awaclus' hammer is that it ended the day 3 days early.

A hammer is never late. Nor is it early. It arrived precisely when I meant it to.

Upvote.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: ashersky on February 07, 2019, 05:58:27 pm
The most frustrating thing about Awaclus' hammer is that it ended the day 3 days early.

A hammer is never late. Nor is it early. It arrived precisely when I meant it to.

Wrong. A hammer is late when it is after the deadline and doesn’t count.

But the again, I guess it isn’t a hammer then. Still, the point remains that one could wait too long to hammer. In fact, you used that argument earlier when you said you were worried if you didn’t hammer someone might be convinced to unvote. So you do see a possible “too late” scenario.

Awaclus has contradicted himself. Mark the time. 
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: UmbrageOfSnow on February 07, 2019, 05:59:39 pm
Awaclus didn't contradict herself, she just claimed wizard.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Awaclus on February 07, 2019, 05:59:46 pm
Awaclus has contradicted himself. Mark the time.

Oh ShiT.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: ashersky on February 07, 2019, 06:00:17 pm
The most frustrating thing about Awaclus' hammer is that it ended the day 3 days early.

Might be frustrating for lurkers, but there’s nothing inherently wrong with ending the day at that or any point once folks have said their piece.

And yeah, normally I'm in favor of ending days early, but I was counting on those 3 days and said so.

Fair enough, but you can accept that there could be situations where scum try to prolong the day for nefarious reasons, yes?  (To be clear, I am not saying that was your plan yesterday.)
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: UmbrageOfSnow on February 07, 2019, 06:00:54 pm
Obviously. I'm just expressing my personal frustration with it.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: jotheonah on February 07, 2019, 06:01:48 pm

And I think I've presented a pretty good case on you based on your case on me, which is scumhunting.


Weak
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Glooble on February 07, 2019, 06:27:01 pm
Genuinely curious why there isn’t a wagon on Space right now.

Like I know why I’m not voting for her, but she was almost the lynch yesterday, and I don’t know what’s changed.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on February 07, 2019, 07:45:36 pm
Genuinely curious why there isn’t a wagon on Space right now.

Like I know why I’m not voting for her, but she was almost the lynch yesterday, and I don’t know what’s changed.

Haha.. I was actually wondering almost the same thing about you, since you'd taken heat earlier. Perversely, that makes me consider voting Joth, because as I said before, it's kind of likely that one of you is scum, and if it's you, then you'd probably find a way to join one of the two current wagons rather than hinting at starting a fresh one on me.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on February 07, 2019, 07:56:28 pm
@WCD, you haven't mentioned anything about your QTs for the last night and today, unless I've missed it. Could you at least let us know whether you've got a conversation going on in the background, in case it affects how early we want to put people up to L-1? I figure even if everything appears to be said in the thread, it might not be the case for yoru QT, given that our D2 one was still going on quite strongly when the day ended.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on February 07, 2019, 08:05:41 pm
Genuinely curious why there isn’t a wagon on Space right now.

Like I know why I’m not voting for her, but she was almost the lynch yesterday, and I don’t know what’s changed.

Haha.. I was actually wondering almost the same thing about you, since you'd taken heat earlier. Perversely, that makes me consider voting Joth, because as I said before, it's kind of likely that one of you is scum, and if it's you, then you'd probably find a way to join one of the two current wagons rather than hinting at starting a fresh one on me.

Huh.. to correct myself, you didn't get as many votes as I think I was remembering, so it's barely fair to say you took heat. I was certainly scumreading you for a short time over the Awaclus-must-be-scum LaLight thing, and I know Ash appeared keen on your lynch at quite a lot of points in the game, but that's not actually all that much. Sorry!

I have to do lots more wagon analysis, but sleep time has caught up with me already. I'm going to be kind of busy tomorrow night because Thursday night games is happening on Friday this week in honour of Haddock's ex-flatmate coming back to Oxford to visit :-)
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on February 07, 2019, 09:54:46 pm
I have to do lots more wagon analysis, but sleep time has caught up with me already. I'm going to be kind of busy tomorrow night because Thursday night games is happening on Friday this week in honour of Haddock's ex-flatmate coming back to Oxford to visit :-)

Oh, fun! I hope you all have a blast!

I have had too much wine to engage meaningfully tonight, but am mostly free tomorrow and am promising myself to get some real work done on this game. I think I'm like 4 pages behind at this point, but I think I'm basically following. I'm feeling better about UoS and Joth than I was earlier.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 08, 2019, 01:20:16 am
Vote: UoS

Claim time
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: faust on February 08, 2019, 01:28:12 am
Vote Count 4.1

UmbrageOfSnow (4): jotheonah, Awaclus, ashersky, 2.71828.....
jotheonah (1): UmbrageOfSnow
Awaclus (1): Glooble

Not Voting (2): SpaceAnemone, WestCoastDidds

With 8 alive, it takes 5 to lynch. Day 3 ends on February 13, 2019, 12:00:00 pm.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: ashersky on February 08, 2019, 01:37:04 am
The vote count splits my reads fairly well, actually.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 08, 2019, 01:40:01 am
With UoS I feel as if there is just not enough information to really make a good decision about lynching them, hence wanting the claim. They are a prime suspect today based on PoE, and while I don't have much of a reason to lynch them, I don't have a reason NOT to lynch them
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 08, 2019, 01:41:51 am
Space and WCD combined claiming about everything has given me reason not to lynch them both today.

I want that from UoS, and not providing all the proof they have at their disposal (i.e. claiming and all) is scummy
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: jotheonah on February 08, 2019, 08:05:27 am
E, why did you use your one and only cop shot on N1, when you had a relatively small amount of information and a relatively large player pool?

e, did you miss this? Because you showed up in the thread and didn’t answer it. Nor have you addressed the conversation around your continued survival.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 08, 2019, 10:51:34 am
E, why did you use your one and only cop shot on N1, when you had a relatively small amount of information and a relatively large player pool?

e, did you miss this? Because you showed up in the thread and didn’t answer it. Nor have you addressed the conversation around your continued survival.

I didn't feel like I had much to add in the discussion about my continued survival. The theory that scum don't want to confirm my role through flipping me is plausible I guess.

I copped Ash to save town from itself. I knew that Ash was the prime target (you know, he was lynched) and I very much thought Ashersky was town, so I just confirmed it
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 08, 2019, 10:56:00 am
Where has everyone been all day? I guess UoS is just taking time coming up with a claim, slows down play a bit
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: jotheonah on February 08, 2019, 11:11:10 am
E, why did you use your one and only cop shot on N1, when you had a relatively small amount of information and a relatively large player pool?

e, did you miss this? Because you showed up in the thread and didn’t answer it. Nor have you addressed the conversation around your continued survival.

I didn't feel like I had much to add in the discussion about my continued survival. The theory that scum don't want to confirm my role through flipping me is plausible I guess.

I copped Ash to save town from itself. I knew that Ash was the prime target (you know, he was lynched) and I very much thought Ashersky was town, so I just confirmed it

This is a fine answer. Not an amazing, airtight answer but also not a scummy non-answer or an implausible answer. I'm curious what other people think though, especially those meta-driven folks who know e a little better. ash, for instance, or UoS or Space. Is e the type to use a 1-shot cop in such a way? I would expect seasoned players to save a power like that for the late game. But of course, that requires surviving to the late game.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on February 08, 2019, 11:17:31 am
Where has everyone been all day? I guess UoS is just taking time coming up with a claim, slows down play a bit

Right? My busiest day at work was an explosion of posts...and today, when I have time to keep up. Not so much.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: jotheonah on February 08, 2019, 11:30:12 am
This is also a good point about ash having literally already been lynched going into Night 1. That actually, to me, makes e-ash scum team a lot more plausible.

Like, if they were a scum team coming out of that day 1 they would have to make a choice between writing off ash for dead or making a proactive gambit to stay alive (with LaLight as a backup if town called bullshit and lynched them together.) I know the last thing anyone wants right now is another "creative" joth theory, but here I go I guess.

If you look at the beginning of Day 2, it is literally the e and ash show for like 12 posts. It includes this post by e:

Also, I assume stuff happened last night (no NK, jotheonah is hated, and that's just the public information). Anyone want to share with the group or is this going to be another RMM where it is partial claims until D4 or so before we mass claim?

It takes on a different tone if you imagine it coming from scum!e who is about to go all in on a risky early cop claim. After all, a real cop who cops him could ruin the plan real fast, so it might be worth the risk to try and out, or at least PoE, some power roles.

The third person to show up is LaLight. By itself, a scum team spending a good chunk of D2 just interacting with each other seems ... weird. So that's a strike against. But they mostly talk about ash's shot and how likely it is to be town. So maybe they're trying to set the conversation up so e doesn't have to use the fake claim. i.e., it's a fallback.

So then Awaclus and DatSwan show up and honestly that's the first time the discussion turns toward re-lynching ashersky.

Also, thinking more about ashersky and what we know about his role: being forced to publicly shoot someone is just so bad for scum. Being forced to publicly shoot someone makes for an interesting position for town. I am fairly confident that Ash is town, not lynching today.

Why? this is an issue that will be brought up throughout the game and used against town the whole time. it doesn't matter if they are town or skum to a sense at this point.... best case scenario what- they have another shot to fire? they can hide that as skum, get lucky as town, or be lying all together. There is def value in lynching ash today, you dismissing is asinine.

Then Haddock and Glooble show up and change the subject to the hatedness (mine and ash's). e participates, ash doesn't.

Then I show up and turn the topic back to "let's lynch ash again". I also introduce the idea of ash being an SK. Then I vote for ash. Then ash votes for ash, which I think is notable.

I wish I was an SK here.  MVP win last time out.

It's been a long time since I've played a game with joth, I think.  What I don't remember is if shutdown-ignore everything-confirmation bias joth is scum!joth or town!joth.

As most would know, I'm always happy to get lynched just to say I told you so.  My green flip just proves you wrong and proves me right.

vote: ash

In retrospect, this post seems scummy. Oh wait, it seemed scummy at the time.

That's when e comes in with the cop claim. When ash is at 2 votes, one of them his own. Even with hated that's not risk-of-a-lynch territory. If scum was holding it in reserve as a last resort option, I'd expect them to wait longer to deploy. So that's points against. Still, e was clearly worried ash would get lynched.

Calm down guys.

Ashersky is town

I like the idea of calming down! The caught us unawares quick lynch when we thought we actually had a whole extra day has made me hesitant to vote at all. But I want to vote for Joth.

E, you say that with authority....how do you know she’s town?

As a part of my role I have a 1-shot cop. I used it on ashersky. I wanted to let it play out a bit longer, but ashersky self-voting kind of made me claim earlier than I wanted, but I didn't want my investigation to be for nothing with a quick lynch

Then e votes for me. At this point I'm hated with a vote and case from Haddock already on me.

Alright, I'll stop my day 2 reread there. Here is my conclusion: The events of day 2 are consistent with a narrative wherein e, ash, and lalight are on a scum team, that scum team got spooked by ash's day 1 lynch, and e and ash, being experienced players who thought they could pull it off, hatched a plan to steer suspicion away from themselves with a proactive cop claim.





Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 08, 2019, 11:35:46 am
I like jotheonah's theories. They are wrong, but they seem genuinely townie
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: jotheonah on February 08, 2019, 11:36:58 am
I like jotheonah's theories. They are wrong, but they seem genuinely townie

TBH I'm still trying to figure out if I actually believe this one.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on February 08, 2019, 11:37:11 am
@WCD, you haven't mentioned anything about your QTs for the last night and today, unless I've missed it. Could you at least let us know whether you've got a conversation going on in the background, in case it affects how early we want to put people up to L-1? I figure even if everything appears to be said in the thread, it might not be the case for yoru QT, given that our D2 one was still going on quite strongly when the day ended.

Hi! I did not have chat N3. I quoted something from my QT with DatSwan and the repercussions were not chat ability for N3.

Today, Jotheonah is talking to me. I chose him because he seems town to me and he had said some things that made it seem as if we (town) could benefit from him knowing a bit more about my role. So, I shared that information. I also have shared with him the reasons that I think Space is town and DatSwan's take on things, too. I believe that the three of us (Space, Joth, WCD) are town.

I can also confirm that we believe that he was roleblocked N3 based on my result from monitoring him.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 08, 2019, 11:38:49 am
I like jotheonah's theories. They are wrong, but they seem genuinely townie

TBH I'm still trying to figure out if I actually believe this one.

I will respond more directly after UoS claims
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: jotheonah on February 08, 2019, 11:47:09 am
And I would say I strongly believe WCD to be town based on our QT chat. My trust in Space is secondhand.

If WCD is scum, she's playing a really impressive game.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Glooble on February 08, 2019, 12:05:00 pm
@WCD, you haven't mentioned anything about your QTs for the last night and today, unless I've missed it. Could you at least let us know whether you've got a conversation going on in the background, in case it affects how early we want to put people up to L-1? I figure even if everything appears to be said in the thread, it might not be the case for yoru QT, given that our D2 one was still going on quite strongly when the day ended.

Hi! I did not have chat N3. I quoted something from my QT with DatSwan and the repercussions were not chat ability for N3.

Today, Jotheonah is talking to me. I chose him because he seems town to me and he had said some things that made it seem as if we (town) could benefit from him knowing a bit more about my role. So, I shared that information. I also have shared with him the reasons that I think Space is town and DatSwan's take on things, too. I believe that the three of us (Space, Joth, WCD) are town.

I can also confirm that we believe that he was roleblocked N3 based on my result from monitoring him.

I strongly trust both WCD and joth, so at this point I feel like I should also trust that Space is probably town. Which doesn't leave me with a lot of options for the remaining scum. There's the ash/e team, which is starting to look better. There's Awaclus, who's kind of a null read because of how she plays but I think has done some scummy stuff. And there's UoS, who's kind of null for circumstantial reasons, but looks plausibly scummy based on what little info we do have.

If UoS wasn't at L-1, I'd probably switch my vote to her at this point, simply due to, as E said, process of elimination. As is I'm happy keeping my vote on who I think is the second most likely scum.

Looking forward to hearing a claim.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on February 08, 2019, 12:11:06 pm
@WCD, you haven't mentioned anything about your QTs for the last night and today, unless I've missed it. Could you at least let us know whether you've got a conversation going on in the background, in case it affects how early we want to put people up to L-1? I figure even if everything appears to be said in the thread, it might not be the case for yoru QT, given that our D2 one was still going on quite strongly when the day ended.

Hi! I did not have chat N3. I quoted something from my QT with DatSwan and the repercussions were not chat ability for N3.

Ah, that is a shame, though also quite weird. Why would faust give a role-based penalty in secret, when we already know that his general form is to make players hated as a penalty? Obviously, if he's penalising you in a way that interacts with your role specifically, he can't announce it in-thread without confirming your role. However, he's also openly made Joth hated for an infraction in this game, and taken my vote from me in a previous game, both publicly applied in the thread to deter others from following suit.

Has anyone else had a secret sanction from faust for a rules infraction, in this game or previous ones?


I can also confirm that we believe that he was roleblocked N3 based on my result from monitoring him.

What response did you get, and have you checked specifically with faust that that's what you'd see as a motion detector if Joth was targeted with a RB?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on February 08, 2019, 12:34:55 pm
Hi! I did not have chat N3. I quoted something from my QT with DatSwan and the repercussions were not chat ability for N3.

Ah, that is a shame, though also quite weird. Why would faust give a role-based penalty in secret, when we already know that his general form is to make players hated as a penalty? Obviously, if he's penalising you in a way that interacts with your role specifically, he can't announce it in-thread without confirming your role. However, he's also openly made Joth hated for an infraction in this game, and taken my vote from me in a previous game, both publicly applied in the thread to deter others from following suit.

Has anyone else had a secret sanction from faust for a rules infraction, in this game or previous ones?

I am aware that faust can't confirm the penalty because I asked him if I could share that is what happened.  If I had wanted to hide that fact, I'd have used the Awaclus hammer 3 days before the EOD deadline as to what I didn't talk to someone. But I figured truth was best. So truth is, I was punished.

I don't really know why faust decided to resolve it that way. One guess is that because I shared QT info in another QT, none of which was in the game thread, it does make some sense to have it be a QT penalty. I will also say that he didn't tell me the penalty immediately, but rather took some time to consider his option (during which I apologized because I wasn't actually aware that I had done it because I was trying to be careful, but in a flurry of back and forth I wasn't as careful as I had intended, and I didn't want him to think I was being a cheater on purpose.)


Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on February 08, 2019, 12:37:37 pm

What response did you get, and have you checked specifically with faust that that's what you'd see as a motion detector if Joth was targeted with a RB?

I did not check with faust. My night monitor returns the name of someone who my target has targeted. I didn't get a result.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on February 08, 2019, 12:42:44 pm
If WCD is scum, she's playing a really impressive game.

And then we all laughed and laughed and laughed...because heaven knows no one has ever thought that about my play!

I don't think I really need to prove my veracity, but the best thing I have going for me is that Space, Swan, and Joth all have the same information about me. I can't see a scenario where I could have figured that out early and then been able to maintain it with everything else that is changing in the game in light of new information, etc. Instead, we just keep getting better and better town information.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: UmbrageOfSnow on February 08, 2019, 01:07:46 pm
With UoS I feel as if there is just not enough information to really make a good decision about lynching them, hence wanting the claim. They are a prime suspect today based on PoE, and while I don't have much of a reason to lynch them, I don't have a reason NOT to lynch them

This is a terrible reason for wanting a claim, but that's okay because I realized I have a way to confirm my claim tomorrow, so I'm not claiming today period. It's relevant only if you'd be willing to lynch through my claim anyway.

Also I don't see an intent to hammer.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: UmbrageOfSnow on February 08, 2019, 01:08:48 pm
It feels like 3 people are voting me just because they want me to claim not because they want to lynch me. This is... not smart.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: jotheonah on February 08, 2019, 01:10:46 pm
If UoS wasn't at L-1, I'd probably switch my vote to her at this point, simply due to, as E said, process of elimination. As is I'm happy keeping my vote on who I think is the second most likely scum.

Looking forward to hearing a claim.

This is .... almost an intent to hammer.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Glooble on February 08, 2019, 01:14:39 pm
It feels like 3 people are voting me just because they want me to claim not because they want to lynch me. This is... not smart.

I think all of the people voting for you are doing so because they think you're the most likely of the remaining players to be scum. I agree with them, so if you continue to insist on not claiming, I'm probably gonna hammer.


I intend to hammer.


This is my intent. I am declaring it.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: UmbrageOfSnow on February 08, 2019, 01:16:51 pm
I'm curious what other people think though, especially those meta-driven folks who know e a little better. ash, for instance, or UoS or Space. Is e the type to use a 1-shot cop in such a way? I would expect seasoned players to save a power like that for the late game. But of course, that requires surviving to the late game.

It doesn't seem that weird to me. 1-shot cop is absolutely better later on, but e isn't a crazy N1 NK, there isn't faust in the game where the scumteam killing him N1 is actually a meme, and there are plenty of players in that initial list who obviously wouldn't be the NK. Looking at it now I'd put her in my top 3 players, so using it early makes sense. Obviously that's not an unbiased assessment on my part, but I don't think it would be hard for town e to come to the same conclusion.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: jotheonah on February 08, 2019, 01:18:20 pm
I'm curious what other people think though, especially those meta-driven folks who know e a little better. ash, for instance, or UoS or Space. Is e the type to use a 1-shot cop in such a way? I would expect seasoned players to save a power like that for the late game. But of course, that requires surviving to the late game.

It doesn't seem that weird to me. 1-shot cop is absolutely better later on, but e isn't a crazy N1 NK, there isn't faust in the game where the scumteam killing him N1 is actually a meme, and there are plenty of players in that initial list who obviously wouldn't be the NK. Looking at it now I'd put her in my top 3 players, so using it early makes sense. Obviously that's not an unbiased assessment on my part, but I don't think it would be hard for town e to come to the same conclusion.

Thanks, this is a helpful datapoint.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: jotheonah on February 08, 2019, 01:20:34 pm
I'm curious what other people think though, especially those meta-driven folks who know e a little better. ash, for instance, or UoS or Space. Is e the type to use a 1-shot cop in such a way? I would expect seasoned players to save a power like that for the late game. But of course, that requires surviving to the late game.

It doesn't seem that weird to me. 1-shot cop is absolutely better later on, but e isn't a crazy N1 NK, there isn't faust in the game where the scumteam killing him N1 is actually a meme, and there are plenty of players in that initial list who obviously wouldn't be the NK. Looking at it now I'd put her in my top 3 players, so using it early makes sense. Obviously that's not an unbiased assessment on my part, but I don't think it would be hard for town e to come to the same conclusion.

Though worth noting this list of reasons is completely different than the reason e gave...
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: UmbrageOfSnow on February 08, 2019, 01:22:57 pm
I'm a doctor you jerks. I was going to target Space tonight and confirm myself.

Robz targeted e on N1, I targeted Ash on N2 and N3. I also have a power to give someone a boosted power in some way that neither Robz nor I have used.

My flavor name is just Medic.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: UmbrageOfSnow on February 08, 2019, 01:23:56 pm
I'm curious what other people think though, especially those meta-driven folks who know e a little better. ash, for instance, or UoS or Space. Is e the type to use a 1-shot cop in such a way? I would expect seasoned players to save a power like that for the late game. But of course, that requires surviving to the late game.

It doesn't seem that weird to me. 1-shot cop is absolutely better later on, but e isn't a crazy N1 NK, there isn't faust in the game where the scumteam killing him N1 is actually a meme, and there are plenty of players in that initial list who obviously wouldn't be the NK. Looking at it now I'd put her in my top 3 players, so using it early makes sense. Obviously that's not an unbiased assessment on my part, but I don't think it would be hard for town e to come to the same conclusion.

Though worth noting this list of reasons is completely different than the reason e gave...

How arrogant would it be to say "I'm one of the best players in this game, so I was worried about being the NK?"
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: jotheonah on February 08, 2019, 01:24:58 pm
Town having full doc AND full JK (effectively 2 docs) seems pretty powerful.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: jotheonah on February 08, 2019, 01:26:34 pm
unvote anyway, in the name of ensuring time for discussion and no quickhammers.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: UmbrageOfSnow on February 08, 2019, 01:26:50 pm
Where has everyone been all day? I guess UoS is just taking time coming up with a claim, slows down play a bit

I dislike this though, how often to I post in the morning?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on February 08, 2019, 01:28:01 pm
One guess is that because I shared QT info in another QT, none of which was in the game thread, it does make some sense to have it be a QT penalty.

Right.. so with whom did you have a QT after Swan, who was N2 and failed D3, and the N3 when you claim you didn't have a QT because you were being penalised for quoting something from the Swan QT?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on February 08, 2019, 01:30:28 pm
Where has everyone been all day? I guess UoS is just taking time coming up with a claim, slows down play a bit

I dislike this though, how often to I post in the morning?

Maybe e is still getting used to being in a European timezone where everything happens in the evening or overnight? Like, for us 11am is already 4 or 5 pm (for me and e respectively), so it's not exactly early.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Glooble on February 08, 2019, 01:31:24 pm
I'm a doctor you jerks. I was going to target Space tonight and confirm myself.

Robz targeted e on N1, I targeted Ash on N2 and N3. I also have a power to give someone a boosted power in some way that neither Robz nor I have used.

My flavor name is just Medic.


I don't remember a Medic named Medic in the books. Does anyone else?

Just to confirm, Robz did not target me with the power booster night 1? Cause that seems like a really weird role to have two of.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: jotheonah on February 08, 2019, 01:32:10 pm
One guess is that because I shared QT info in another QT, none of which was in the game thread, it does make some sense to have it be a QT penalty.

Right.. so with whom did you have a QT after Swan, who was N2 and failed D3, and the N3 when you claim you didn't have a QT because you were being penalised for quoting something from the Swan QT?

Maybe just give us a list:
N1
D2
N2
D3
etc. It does seem like the number of QTs doesn't add up if you get them every day and every night.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on February 08, 2019, 01:33:13 pm
unvote anyway, in the name of ensuring time for discussion and no quickhammers.

That seems townie.

I want to think about the claim, and about WCD's QT weirdness maybe-scumslip thing, but right now I'm going to be offline for a few hours hosting games night.

Please don't lynch anyone before I'm back :-)
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: UmbrageOfSnow on February 08, 2019, 01:33:21 pm
Town having full doc AND full JK (effectively 2 docs) seems pretty powerful.

I'm not exactly a full doc, but the details are none of anyones business, you lynch me or scum NKs me and you can figure it out from my flip probably. I absolutely will not claim the details of that part of the role.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: jotheonah on February 08, 2019, 01:34:02 pm
I'm a doctor you jerks. I was going to target Space tonight and confirm myself.

Robz targeted e on N1, I targeted Ash on N2 and N3. I also have a power to give someone a boosted power in some way that neither Robz nor I have used.

My flavor name is just Medic.


I don't remember a Medic named Medic in the books. Does anyone else?

Just to confirm, Robz did not target me with the power booster night 1? Cause that seems like a really weird role to have two of.

There was a Medic in the book who was just called Medic.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: UmbrageOfSnow on February 08, 2019, 01:34:20 pm
Just to confirm, Robz did not target me with the power booster night 1? Cause that seems like a really weird role to have two of.

Robz did not target you.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on February 08, 2019, 01:35:04 pm
I don't remember a Medic named Medic in the books. Does anyone else?

Yeah, the ships have medics, don't they?

PPE some. Definitely leaving this time...
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Glooble on February 08, 2019, 01:36:26 pm
Just to confirm, Robz did not target me with the power booster night 1? Cause that seems like a really weird role to have two of.

Robz did not target you.

So what's the likelihood faust puts two different power-boosting roles in the game?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Awaclus on February 08, 2019, 01:37:46 pm
Vote: Glooble
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Glooble on February 08, 2019, 01:39:10 pm
Vote: Glooble

Shocker.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: UmbrageOfSnow on February 08, 2019, 01:42:55 pm
Have you heard about the Joth wagon? I hear all the coolest people are into it these days.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Awaclus on February 08, 2019, 01:47:50 pm
Have you heard about the Joth wagon? I hear all the coolest people are into it these days.

Eh, I guess I could vote for joth again, but right now I like Glooble more.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: jotheonah on February 08, 2019, 01:49:20 pm
Have you heard about the Joth wagon? I hear all the coolest people are into it these days.

Really? I heard it was a really bad wagon.

Is this going to be one of those days where we keep moving the lynch around until everyone has claimed and then we lynch the poor honest townie with the least useful role?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: jotheonah on February 08, 2019, 01:50:28 pm
So far I've trusted my gut on fishy claims twice this game and twice I've been right. This claim isn't quite as fishy as LaLight's or mail-mi's, but it's still pretty convenient.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Glooble on February 08, 2019, 01:51:16 pm
Have you heard about the Joth wagon? I hear all the coolest people are into it these days.

Really? I heard it was a really bad wagon.

Is this going to be one of those days where we keep moving the lynch around until everyone has claimed and then we lynch the poor honest townie with the least useful role?

If we're going to do that I should probably just save time and vote for myself.

Or you could join me on the Awaclus wagon.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: UmbrageOfSnow on February 08, 2019, 01:54:02 pm
Is this going to be one of those days where we keep moving the lynch around until everyone has claimed and then we lynch the poor honest townie with the least useful role?

It's almost like it's dumb to vote people just to get them to claim if you aren't willing to lynch through a good number of claims.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: jotheonah on February 08, 2019, 01:54:15 pm
I'm not voting for either of you until one of you puts together an actual convincing case on the other one.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: jotheonah on February 08, 2019, 01:56:07 pm
(that was directed at Awaclus and Glooble)
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: UmbrageOfSnow on February 08, 2019, 01:57:28 pm
unvote anyway, in the name of ensuring time for discussion and no quickhammers.

That seems townie.
How is it townie that the person most convinced I'm scum is the first to unvote on a claim that she is calling fishy?

It's gunshy scum.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: jotheonah on February 08, 2019, 01:58:54 pm
unvote anyway, in the name of ensuring time for discussion and no quickhammers.

That seems townie.
How is it townie that the person most convinced I'm scum is the first to unvote on a claim that she is calling fishy?

It's gunshy scum.

Ha. When I'm scum I'm not gunshy. It's kind of a problem.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on February 08, 2019, 02:00:41 pm
The Didds neighborhood saga....

D1- no one...my ability had not started yet.  (No selection for N1 because the day ended early because of the Asher double hated and I wasn't prepared)
N1- no one (selected Space for D2)
D2- no result for Space, neighborhood with Space, (selected DatSwan for N2)
N2- neighborhood with Swan (selected DatSwan for D3 at his request)
(After the infraction, the thread was shut down and later when the night actions were resolved I was informed that the penalty for the infraction was that I would not be able to target someone the following day, so there would also be no night chat)
D3- Swan result (ashersky), but no chat because he was dead. (Not allowed to select for N3)
N3- No chat because of the rule infraction (Selected Jotheonah for D4)
D4- no result for Joth, neighborhood with Joth (Select someone for N4...)


PPE 10 or 12 or something


Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on February 08, 2019, 02:02:13 pm
One guess is that because I shared QT info in another QT, none of which was in the game thread, it does make some sense to have it be a QT penalty.

Right.. so with whom did you have a QT after Swan, who was N2 and failed D3, and the N3 when you claim you didn't have a QT because you were being penalised for quoting something from the Swan QT?

I think its more clear now, yeah? Joth is in my neighborhood today.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on February 08, 2019, 02:07:10 pm
One guess is that because I shared QT info in another QT, none of which was in the game thread, it does make some sense to have it be a QT penalty.

Right.. so with whom did you have a QT after Swan, who was N2 and failed D3, and the N3 when you claim you didn't have a QT because you were being penalised for quoting something from the Swan QT?

I was penalized for quoting my QT in the Swan neighborhood QT. Using specific language could give me an unfair advantage.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: jotheonah on February 08, 2019, 02:13:12 pm
FYI my availability will drop dramatically on Monday. Might not be around at deadline (assuming we get to deadline, which seems somewhat unlikely).
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Glooble on February 08, 2019, 02:20:27 pm
I want to let e and ashersky react to this claim they were so eager to get.

For my part, I'm still willing to lynch UoS. Doctor is like the go-to hail-mary claim for caught scum, isn't it? Otoh, if she's telling the truth, there's a good chance she dies tomorrow, and if she doesn't we have an even stronger case for lynching her.

Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 08, 2019, 02:39:35 pm
As promised, I will expand on my role.

I am System Governor Giarod, and my copping was a 1-shot copping governor. I used my power on ashersky D1 which is why he survived the lynch and then I knew they were town. Also why I was confident that I was not redirected, etc. A godfather would still confuse my result though if ashersky were a scum godfather
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Glooble on February 08, 2019, 02:41:55 pm
As promised, I will expand on my role.

I am System Governor Giarod, and my copping was a 1-shot copping governor. I used my power on ashersky D1 which is why he survived the lynch and then I knew they were town. Also why I was confident that I was not redirected, etc. A godfather would still confuse my result though if ashersky were a scum godfather

This contradicts Ashes "If I use my shot I'm hated" claim, doesn't it?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 08, 2019, 02:42:00 pm
At a friend's place getting ready to play some Mario party, so won't really be able to comment much the rest of tonight (also, yes, still getting used to Europe time), but interested to wake up to some conversation in the morning.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: jotheonah on February 08, 2019, 02:43:09 pm
C'mon e, give us a quick take on the UoS claim.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: jotheonah on February 08, 2019, 02:45:08 pm
As promised, I will expand on my role.

I am System Governor Giarod, and my copping was a 1-shot copping governor. I used my power on ashersky D1 which is why he survived the lynch and then I knew they were town. Also why I was confident that I was not redirected, etc. A godfather would still confuse my result though if ashersky were a scum godfather

I thought Governor just ended the day without a lynch. Can you elaborate a bit more on how the power worked?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Glooble on February 08, 2019, 02:52:07 pm
The lack of a night kill makes ash look worse to me. Not getting a night kill the night they used it would be a way to balance giving scum a day shot.

Can we talk about the fact that five people had 7 votes? Ash, we’re you also secretly hated Day 1? If someone on the ash wagon has a secret double or triple vote I guess that would explain it as well.

We had a plurality lynch, we didn't have 7 votes


This is an interesting mistake for scum LaLight to have made, since it turns out it actually was a plurality lynch. Could be a coincidence. Could be he knew his partner was going to end the day.

Also, nice speculation by all on the odd wagon size (no sarcasm here).  But I took only 5 votes to lynch.

As for why I didn't die -- no idea.  Assuming someone protected me from the NK as I believe I'm scum's top NK priority.

Here's where ash's claim contradicts e's just now. Someone tell me how this makes sense unless one of them is lying.

As promised, I will expand on my role.

I am System Governor Giarod, and my copping was a 1-shot copping governor. I used my power on ashersky D1 which is why he survived the lynch and then I knew they were town. Also why I was confident that I was not redirected, etc. A godfather would still confuse my result though if ashersky were a scum godfather

I thought Governor just ended the day without a lynch. Can you elaborate a bit more on how the power worked?

Most setups don't have a plurality lynch.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Glooble on February 08, 2019, 02:55:27 pm
To clarify- if e is telling the truth, the plurality lynch would have explained the fact that ash was lynched with only five votes. So if ash was also randomly double-hated, as she claimed, that would be a huge coincidence, especially given that e would then have to have ended the day before faust did, and just happened to decide to do that.

I don't buy it.

vote: e


Because if ash were the one lying e would have called her on it.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: jotheonah on February 08, 2019, 03:00:40 pm
Maybe e's power is ends the day, if town is going to be lynched, they don't die, if scum is going to be lynched they do. That's powerful.

Could e's power be a scum power that works the other way around?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Glooble on February 08, 2019, 03:09:39 pm
Maybe e's power is ends the day, if town is going to be lynched, they don't die, if scum is going to be lynched they do. That's powerful.

Could e's power be a scum power that works the other way around?


That doesn't do anything to address the fact that if e an ash are both telling the truth then e just happened to use her power at the exact vote count when ash would have died anyway, but before faust ended the day. That's staggeringly unlikely.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Glooble on February 08, 2019, 03:10:02 pm
One of them is lying.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Glooble on February 08, 2019, 03:10:32 pm
This is the ball game, folks.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Awaclus on February 08, 2019, 03:51:24 pm
One of them is lying.

One of e/ash?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Glooble on February 08, 2019, 03:54:16 pm
One of them is lying.

One of e/ash?

Yeah. It's ridiculously unlikely they're both telling the truth.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Awaclus on February 08, 2019, 04:16:16 pm
One of them is lying.

One of e/ash?

Yeah. It's ridiculously unlikely they're both telling the truth.

Huh. I guess I have to pay a bit more attention to that then.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on February 08, 2019, 04:22:11 pm
Think with me Glooble...

If Ashersky is lying, its about being double hated?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Glooble on February 08, 2019, 04:23:34 pm
Think with me Glooble...

If Ashersky is lying, its about being double hated?


Yes.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Awaclus on February 08, 2019, 04:25:13 pm
How does Governor work with a plurality lynch?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on February 08, 2019, 04:25:32 pm
And if e is lying, its about ending the day?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on February 08, 2019, 04:26:55 pm
The wiki says it ends the day and no one gets lynched. We lynched Asher, but she didn't die.

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Governor
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Glooble on February 08, 2019, 04:27:36 pm
And if e is lying, its about ending the day?


That's what I'm saying, yes. Am I missing something obvious?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Glooble on February 08, 2019, 04:30:02 pm
The wiki says it ends the day and no one gets lynched. We lynched Asher, but she didn't die.

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Governor


The plurality lynch isn't normal. It seems obvious to me that in a game with a plurality lynch that lynch would take effect regardless of whether the day ended by deadline or by governor.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Awaclus on February 08, 2019, 04:30:35 pm
I don't see why this doesn't work.

1) e targets ash with cop governor
2) ash is double hated
3) ash gets 5 votes and is lynched due to being double hated
4) e's governor saves ash
5) ash doesn't die
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: jotheonah on February 08, 2019, 04:31:05 pm
No, I think you're right. faust takes liberties with roles, but generally the names he gives them seem to match up with what that role name is traditionally understood to do. So if e is a Governor, we'd expect his power to, at a minimum, end the day. If it does other things too, like make someone unlynchable and cop them, that's well in the realm of believability.

But then we have ash saying, unequivocally, that he is double-hated as part of his role and that's why he died at five votes. So if we believe both of them, we have the ending for two reasons at the same time. Unless it was a perfect coincidence of e using his power during twilight after ash was lynched and no one knew it, we do have a contradiction.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: jotheonah on February 08, 2019, 04:31:42 pm
I don't see why this doesn't work.

1) e targets ash with cop governor
2) ash is double hated
3) ash gets 5 votes and is lynched due to being double hated
4) e's governor saves ash
5) ash doesn't die

In that scenario we have a power called "Governor" that doesn't end the day.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Glooble on February 08, 2019, 04:32:08 pm
No, I think you're right. faust takes liberties with roles, but generally the names he gives them seem to match up with what that role name is traditionally understood to do. So if e is a Governor, we'd expect his power to, at a minimum, end the day. If it does other things too, like make someone unlynchable and cop them, that's well in the realm of believability.

But then we have ash saying, unequivocally, that he is double-hated as part of his role and that's why he died at five votes. So if we believe both of them, we have the ending for two reasons at the same time. Unless it was a perfect coincidence of e using his power during twilight after ash was lynched and no one knew it, we do have a contradiction.

Thank you! Someone gets it.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Awaclus on February 08, 2019, 04:32:32 pm
I don't see why this doesn't work.

1) e targets ash with cop governor
2) ash is double hated
3) ash gets 5 votes and is lynched due to being double hated
4) e's governor saves ash
5) ash doesn't die

In that scenario we have a power called "Governor" that doesn't end the day.

The day ended.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: jotheonah on February 08, 2019, 04:33:42 pm
Though, looking at mafiascum, "A Governor is a role that can stop a lynch." Awaclus's version does stop a lynch. Actually the mafiascum definition kind of kills the theory.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on February 08, 2019, 04:34:08 pm
And if e is lying, its about ending the day?


That's what I'm saying, yes. Am I missing something obvious?

No, I'm just making sure I am following correctly
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: jotheonah on February 08, 2019, 04:35:12 pm
It doesn't say anything about ending the day. It says they PM the mod during Twilight. It also says it can work differently in games with a plurality lynch.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Glooble on February 08, 2019, 04:35:39 pm
I don't see why this doesn't work.

1) e targets ash with cop governor
2) ash is double hated
3) ash gets 5 votes and is lynched due to being double hated
4) e's governor saves ash
5) ash doesn't die

In that scenario we have a power called "Governor" that doesn't end the day.

The day ended.

ashersky has been lynched. She did not die. Day 1 ends now. Night 1 starts and lasts at least until January 21, 2019, 06:00:00 pm. Night actions are due within 48 hours.

Thread locked!

Ash was lynched, but she didn't die. So if your interpretation of governor is "stops the lynch" rather than "ends the day" then e's claim makes even less sense.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: jotheonah on February 08, 2019, 04:36:28 pm
That's semantics. It stopped the lynch in every way that matters.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: jotheonah on February 08, 2019, 04:37:13 pm
If you read the wiki, there's no inconsistency. I would quote it but I'm wary of quoting stuff.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Glooble on February 08, 2019, 04:38:26 pm
It doesn't say anything about ending the day. It says they PM the mod during Twilight. It also says it can work differently in games with a plurality lynch.

Oh damn. Well that kills my theory. I was basing my understanding of governor off of this:


Good morning, folks!

Hi Haddock....in your giant post you quoted me and said that in regard to plan discussions that I had completely missed the point. So, uhm, yeah....that is accurate. I’m newish to the game (this is my 5th game) and something’s that are obvious to others take me awhile to work out. I think I miss the point of posts quite a bit at first, but improve with time....or at least that is my hope.

I am still confused about how Asher got lynched with only 5 votes so far from the deadline. Is there a power that can end the day, and then it’s the plurality vote? Is that more likely than two people having an extra vote? And did Asher’s shot give her immunity?

There is a power called Governor that ends the day, though I’ve never seen it combined with a plurality lynch. Usually it just causes a no lynch. A power like that seems very very strong, basically dayvig and end the day but you can only target the leading wagon. I can maybe see it as a once per game.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Glooble on February 08, 2019, 04:39:20 pm
I didn't read the wiki, I just remembered joth saying "There's a power called governor that can end the day".
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Glooble on February 08, 2019, 04:40:06 pm
unvote I guess. Damn I really thought we had them.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: jotheonah on February 08, 2019, 04:41:43 pm
And that post was based on me trusting my memory, which was wrong. :(

Worth noting, I hammered ash (and no one but ash knew it was a hammer) at 4:31. faust posted the final vote count at 5:56 and the non-flip at 6:01.

We don't know how the power works, but if twilight was e's window, it's not a lot of time.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Glooble on February 08, 2019, 04:42:37 pm
Hang on though, wait. E’s story still doesn’t line up with what happened. The lynch wasn’t stopped, it just didn’t kill ash. Faust words things very precisely.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on February 08, 2019, 04:47:29 pm
Hang on though, wait. E’s story still doesn’t line up with what happened. The lynch wasn’t stopped, it just didn’t kill ash. Faust words things very precisely.

I think that is correct. Ash was lynched. 

The odd thing is that she didn't die.  Can a governor save someone?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: jotheonah on February 08, 2019, 04:49:20 pm
The wiki says under variations that a Governor can submit a name to make a player lynchproof until the next lynch. I really think this is semantics.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on February 08, 2019, 04:51:36 pm
As promised, I will expand on my role.

I am System Governor Giarod, and my copping was a 1-shot copping governor. I used my power on ashersky D1 which is why he survived the lynch and then I knew they were town. Also why I was confident that I was not redirected, etc. A godfather would still confuse my result though if ashersky were a scum godfather

I'm just quoting this to move it over to this page. 

For e to be telling the truth, this version of governor saves whoever was lynched (is that a governor??). And she implies that Asher living meant she was town, but doesn't really explain that.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Awaclus on February 08, 2019, 06:19:10 pm
As promised, I will expand on my role.

I am System Governor Giarod, and my copping was a 1-shot copping governor. I used my power on ashersky D1 which is why he survived the lynch and then I knew they were town. Also why I was confident that I was not redirected, etc. A godfather would still confuse my result though if ashersky were a scum godfather

I'm just quoting this to move it over to this page. 

For e to be telling the truth, this version of governor saves whoever was lynched (is that a governor??). And she implies that Asher living meant she was town, but doesn't really explain that.

1-shot copping governor sounds like it's just a governor that also cops, not a governor that only saves town.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on February 08, 2019, 06:32:56 pm
Awaclus, does that jive with “she survived the lynch and then I knew they were town”? That statement seems very precise. Like the not dying = the knowledge?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 08, 2019, 06:42:15 pm
As promised, I will expand on my role.

I am System Governor Giarod, and my copping was a 1-shot copping governor. I used my power on ashersky D1 which is why he survived the lynch and then I knew they were town. Also why I was confident that I was not redirected, etc. A godfather would still confuse my result though if ashersky were a scum godfather

I'm just quoting this to move it over to this page. 

For e to be telling the truth, this version of governor saves whoever was lynched (is that a governor??). And she implies that Asher living meant she was town, but doesn't really explain that.

1-shot copping governor sounds like it's just a governor that also cops, not a governor that only saves town.

That is correct. I could have received a different result, but I specifically received that Ash is Radch-aligned
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Awaclus on February 08, 2019, 06:52:33 pm
Awaclus, does that jive with “she survived the lynch and then I knew they were town”? That statement seems very precise. Like the not dying = the knowledge?

Yes? First ashersky survived the lynch and then e knew he was town (from the cop result).
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Awaclus on February 08, 2019, 08:32:27 pm
Vote: joth
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on February 08, 2019, 09:05:26 pm
D1- no one...my ability had not started yet.  (No selection for N1 because the day ended early because of the Asher double hated and I wasn't prepared)
N1- no one (selected Space for D2)
D2- no result for Space, neighborhood with Space, (selected DatSwan for N2)
N2- neighborhood with Swan (selected DatSwan for D3 at his request)
(After the infraction, the thread was shut down and later when the night actions were resolved I was informed that the penalty for the infraction was that I would not be able to target someone the following day, so there would also be no night chat)
D3- Swan result (ashersky), but no chat because he was dead. (Not allowed to select for N3)
N3- No chat because of the rule infraction (Selected Jotheonah for D4)
D4- no result for Joth, neighborhood with Joth (Select someone for N4...)

This does not line up with what WCD told me about her role in our QT. She appear to be claiming now that she tracks her target, in addition to getting both day and night QTs. That's ridiculously powerful.

Previously, WCD told me that she can target someone in any day/night phase, and have a private QT with them the next phase. If she targets someone at night, she said she also got a motion detector result on them. That seemed rather more believable.

This is a post from D3:
I monitored DatSwan last night. His target was Ashersky.
-- she explicitly said she monitored him and got his target, not that she'd talked to him and knew who he'd been intending to target.

Combine that with the issue about what QT she'd quoted where, and I'm starting to get strong suspicions that there's a scumslip here:

I did not have chat N3. I quoted something from my QT with DatSwan and the repercussions were not chat ability for N3.
-- She's clearly saying that text went from the QT with DatSwan, not to DatSwan.

When I called her on this earlier this evening, she changed the story to:
I was penalized for quoting my QT in the Swan neighborhood QT.

Which is not the same thing.

Lastly, she's claiming that an infraction that occurred during a brief conversation in N2 (she said earlier that Swan had not noticed the QT for a while, and wanted longer to talk) was a delayed penalty that allowed her to use her role normally for D3 (getting the "tracking" result on DatSwan, and having a QT with him had he not been dead), but took away her QT ability the following night. That seems a bit weirdly delayed to me, when faust could just have denied her the tracking result, or the QT the next day.

I could just be be too paranoid here, because I really was townreading WCD for her overall behaviour, but I don't like it when the little things don't add up.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on February 08, 2019, 09:07:51 pm
@e, how do you explain the fact that Ash strongly implied that he knew he was double-hated? Does that work with your understanding of your own role's mechanic and how the end of D1 played out?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on February 08, 2019, 09:09:49 pm
I want to come back and read the e-Ash stuff tomorrow in more detail, but it's after 0200 here now and I need sleep. Right now, I feel like there was a lot of speculation without directly questioning those involved about their understanding of how it played out.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Awaclus on February 08, 2019, 09:24:06 pm
Vote: WCD
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: jotheonah on February 08, 2019, 09:40:56 pm
It almost looks like WCD might not have night QTs at all. But why lie about that? Plus it’s easily verifiable. Why lie about her tracking ability? This doesn’t amount to a case if it doesn’t somehow tie into behavior that is anyitown, rather than merely bizarre.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on February 08, 2019, 10:10:00 pm
Space, I will try to be more clear. If I have been confusing, it is a result of my inexperience, not that I am attempting to be shady. My role is that I can name a person in each phase and have a QT with them in the following phase.  Additionally, during each of the night phases, the person that I monitor the person that I named and get a result of who they targeted. Of you, DatSwan, and Joth the only person who returned a result was DatSwan and her target was Ashersky.

I am not exactly sure what a motion detector is since its described as a monitor to me, but they sound similar. DatSwan had a bunch of questions like this, which led to the quoting of my role in my QT with him. I don't quite understand what I am doing wrong linguistically, but it sounds like maybe I am using a term of art incorrectly.


This does not line up with what WCD told me about her role in our QT. She appear to be claiming now that she tracks her target, in addition to getting both day and night QTs. That's ridiculously powerful.

Previously, WCD told me that she can target someone in any day/night phase, and have a private QT with them the next phase. If she targets someone at night, she said she also got a motion detector result on them. That seemed rather more believable.

This is a post from D3:
I monitored DatSwan last night. His target was Ashersky.
-- she explicitly said she monitored him and got his target, not that she'd talked to him and knew who he'd been intending to target.

I am not sure what the difference is here.  In N2, DatSwan and I talked about who he should JK that night. He had it narrowed down to two people when the thread got locked, a few hours before the EON because of the rule violation. Before the end of the night, I targeted him for D3 got a result on him at the beginning of D3 Ashersky. No neighborhood opened, I am assuming because he was dead.


Combine that with the issue about what QT she'd quoted where, and I'm starting to get strong suspicions that there's a scumslip here:

I did not have chat N3. I quoted something from my QT with DatSwan and the repercussions were not chat ability for N3.
-- She's clearly saying that text went from the QT with DatSwan, not to DatSwan.

When I called her on this earlier this evening, she changed the story to:
I was penalized for quoting my QT in the Swan neighborhood QT.

Which is not the same thing.

Lastly, she's claiming that an infraction that occurred during a brief conversation in N2 (she said earlier that Swan had not noticed the QT for a while, and wanted longer to talk) was a delayed penalty that allowed her to use her role normally for D3 (getting the "tracking" result on DatSwan, and having a QT with him had he not been dead), but took away her QT ability the following night. That seems a bit weirdly delayed to me, when faust could just have denied her the tracking result, or the QT the next day.

I could just be be too paranoid here, because I really was townreading WCD for her overall behaviour, but I don't like it when the little things don't add up.

When I first wrote about the penalty I meant to say I quoted something from my QT "to" DatSwan.  If the argument is about a mistake typing "with" instead of "to", then yeah, I made that mistake. I was trying to convey what happened with quoting anything else. And then I tried to clarify what happened more clearly so that it made sense.

I don't know why faust chose the penalty that he did.  I can tell you that the thread was locked around 9:40 am and the night ended about 15 hours later (after midnight), so he spent some time thinking about it. I don't really know faust well enough to guess his thought process, but perhaps denying me daychat with a dead person wasn't enough of a penalty since it wasn't going to be productive anyway. Perhaps he could have denied my monitor result, but I already had the advantage of talking to Swan and having a sense of where who he was going to JK. Finally, taking the night chat is was less punitive than the day chat, so perhaps it was a punishment most fitting to the crime.  I can say that it was oddly worded and had to be explained to me more clearly for me to understand that who I named D3 for N3, I would not get to talk to. It was a bit oddly delayed, but the reasons I just listed were how I made sense of it.

When I asked faust if I could tell the thread about the punishment, he said it was okay but that he wouldn't be able to comment on it. So, that is the extent of that. The quoting thing was a novice mistake, any confusion about my descriptions is my confusion. If I am using specific role words incorrectly, please try to understand my meaning. I am not choosing my words strategically.

I am ride or die with you and Joth. I know that you are both town based entirely on our interactions and I am not sure what has changed for you, but I am going to try not to let your paranoia cause me to rethink you. I have claimed more specific information about my role than anyone else, and you have some further information that has not been widely shared that should help you identify why I chose Joth for my neighborhood today.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: ashersky on February 08, 2019, 10:23:12 pm
vote: WCD

I don’t like UoS any better after the claim, not that specific given the roles we have seen so far, pretty normal scum fake claim, won’t be sad if we lose it. Would definitely lynch there.

As for WCD, the claiming that’s been going on since the beginning hasn’t been consistent, the supreme overconfidence of the alignment of the players she has targeted can only be incredibly naive or come from scum that already knows she’s targeting town. And the secret mod punishment is straight up a lie to cover up a mistake in her fake claim — it’s a good tool because she knows faust can’t comment on it without messing with the game. I’m sure it’s a lie because if it actually happened, a good mod would post that a rules violation occurred and a punishment had been levied.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on February 08, 2019, 10:23:49 pm
It almost looks like WCD might not have night QTs at all. But why lie about that? Plus it’s easily verifiable. Why lie about her tracking ability? This doesn’t amount to a case if it doesn’t somehow tie into behavior that is anyitown, rather than merely bizarre.

I am not sure what information that I could provide from my chat with DatSwan that would serve as proof of our interaction. I also am not quite sure why it matters except that I am not freaking lying. If I did not have night chat abilities, I certainly wouldn't make up an embarrassing story about breaking the rules and being disciplined for it (which I find mortifying).

What I have shared with the thread is that Swan JKed Space N1 (he told me), and Ashersky N2 (I knew that was one of the contenders and then got that as the result at the end of the night from the monitoring part of my role). That information only helps Space because it explains why there was no NK N1. So, if I am not trying to help her, I'd sit on it. She suspected that she was JKed but I am the one who could verify it because I talked to Swan.

I'm frustrated that my inexperience/lack of vocabulary is fouling things up. Any help would be appreciated. I feel like we are at an important juncture in the game and I don't want to be the LVP.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: ashersky on February 08, 2019, 10:25:51 pm
On the gov thing...

I am definitely double hated and was definitely lynched. I don’t see any issue with Gov saving me. Previous gov uses on f.ds have allowed for pre-targeting when twilight timing is involved. Or just “save whomever gets lynched today” style orders.

For me, a Gov saves a lynched person after they are lynched, whenever they are lynched. I was lynched, then saved.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: ashersky on February 08, 2019, 10:27:35 pm
It almost looks like WCD might not have night QTs at all. But why lie about that? Plus it’s easily verifiable. Why lie about her tracking ability? This doesn’t amount to a case if it doesn’t somehow tie into behavior that is anyitown, rather than merely bizarre.

I am not sure what information that I could provide from my chat with DatSwan that would serve as proof of our interaction. I also am not quite sure why it matters except that I am not freaking lying. If I did not have night chat abilities, I certainly wouldn't make up an embarrassing story about breaking the rules and being disciplined for it (which I find mortifying).

What I have shared with the thread is that Swan JKed Space N1 (he told me), and Ashersky N2 (I knew that was one of the contenders and then got that as the result at the end of the night from the monitoring part of my role). That information only helps Space because it explains why there was no NK N1. So, if I am not trying to help her, I'd sit on it. She suspected that she was JKed but I am the one who could verify it because I talked to Swan.

I'm frustrated that my inexperience/lack of vocabulary is fouling things up. Any help would be appreciated. I feel like we are at an important juncture in the game and I don't want to be the LVP.

SA being JKed also hurts SA, as her attempted killing action could have been blocked.  So your argument on that point is also invalid.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on February 08, 2019, 10:34:52 pm
SA being JKed also hurts SA, as her attempted killing action could have been blocked.  So your argument on that point is also invalid.

Do you mean that if she was blocked that hurts her ability to use her powers? My argument was not about her abilities. I was trying to say that telling the thread that she had been jailkept by Swan helped her in the game (not in the night that had passed, although I guess it potentially kept her alive). She claimed to have been blocked N1 when she was getting votes on D2 and I verified her claim with what I knew from Swan.  When I told the thread that I knew she had been his first JK'ed person, it verified her story about being blocked that night. She suspected that she had been JK'ed when we talked on D2, but I didn't know that she actually had been until D3. She learned that from me when the rest of the thread did.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: ashersky on February 08, 2019, 10:39:35 pm
SA being JKed also hurts SA, as her attempted killing action could have been blocked.  So your argument on that point is also invalid.

Do you mean that if she was blocked that hurts her ability to use her powers? My argument was not about her abilities. I was trying to say that telling the thread that she had been jailkept by Swan helped her in the game (not in the night that had passed, although I guess it potentially kept her alive). She claimed to have been blocked N1 when she was getting votes on D2 and I verified her claim with what I knew from Swan.  When I told the thread that I knew she had been his first JK'ed person, it verified her story about being blocked that night. She suspected that she had been JK'ed when we talked on D2, but I didn't know that she actually had been until D3. She learned that from me when the rest of the thread did.

When you said “helped” by claiming, you specifically said because there was no NK on N1. If you think confirming she was blocked on night with no kill helped her, I could only assume you meant because she could have survived the kill having been jailed. But the flip side of that is she could have been blocked from doing the kill.

Now in your response to me, you leave that aside and talk about SA claiming to have been blocked and confirming that for her. Inconsistencies continue. This doesn’t help your cause.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: faust on February 09, 2019, 02:44:34 am
Vote Count 4.2

UmbrageOfSnow (1): 2.71828.....
jotheonah (1): UmbrageOfSnow
WestCoastDidds (2): Awaclus, ashersky

Not Voting (4): SpaceAnemone, WestCoastDidds, jotheonah, Glooble

With 8 alive, it takes 5 to lynch. Day 3 ends on February 13, 2019, 12:00:00 pm.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 09, 2019, 04:44:44 am
The Didds neighborhood saga....

D1- no one...my ability had not started yet.  (No selection for N1 because the day ended early because of the Asher double hated and I wasn't prepared)
N1- no one (selected Space for D2)
D2- no result for Space, neighborhood with Space, (selected DatSwan for N2)
N2- neighborhood with Swan (selected DatSwan for D3 at his request)
(After the infraction, the thread was shut down and later when the night actions were resolved I was informed that the penalty for the infraction was that I would not be able to target someone the following day, so there would also be no night chat)
D3- Swan result (ashersky), but no chat because he was dead. (Not allowed to select for N3)
N3- No chat because of the rule infraction (Selected Jotheonah for D4)
D4- no result for Joth, neighborhood with Joth (Select someone for N4...)


PPE 10 or 12 or something

quoting for a jump-off point.  I just reread all of WCD, and I believe her to be town.  Her play throughout the game has been excited, newer, town.  Going back to D1 complaining about the lack of activity, to caution about voting LL, to the entire saga of her qt.  All of her play is just too honest and open to be manipulative, lying, scum.  I just don't see it.

Not voting for WCD today, probably won't this game without a solid result against her.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 09, 2019, 04:53:15 am
Jotheonah - did you target anyone last night with an action?  I don't really care what your power is (have you claimed anything?  I am losing track), just want the validation on WCD's claim.

WCD - what is your role name/description?  Like, quote it as it was given to you by faust.  If you are concerned about the legality of that just confirm with faust exactly what you are allowed to say in the thread.  (mods don't want to just throw out penalties, trust me.)
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 09, 2019, 05:27:57 am
@e, how do you explain the fact that Ash strongly implied that he knew he was double-hated? Does that work with your understanding of your own role's mechanic and how the end of D1 played out?

Awaclus laid it out pretty well.

I don't see why this doesn't work.

1) e targets ash with cop governor
2) ash is double hated
3) ash gets 5 votes and is lynched due to being double hated
4) e's governor saves ash
5) ash doesn't die

To expand and explain how the governor worked a little more:

1) I selected Ashersky in my qt during the day to receive governor protection.  There was no element of twilight involved.
2) I had absolutely nothing to do with Ashersky being double hated
3) Lynch happened
4) My governor saves Ashersky
5) Ashersky doesn't die
6) I am given the cop result in my qt at the start of N1.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 09, 2019, 05:47:38 am
I think I will keep my vote on UoS.  I am getting a bit conflicted because I am starting to run into too many town reads and not enough scum reads.

Ashersky and myself are town based on my PM and my investigation.

Awaclus, WCD, Space, Glooble, and jotheonah all feel pretty town to me.  If I had to rank them probably (town to scum):
Awaclus
Glooble
Jotheonah
WCD
Space

And then UoS is the only one left.  I just don't know that I trust the straight doctor+ claim.  We had a full jailkeeper, and to also have a full doctor?  That is a powerful town.

I don't know what to do about finding a lynch tomorrow, but I will need some convincing to go elsewhere today.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 09, 2019, 06:07:18 am
Summary time:
Dead People:
mcmc - Fixed Modified Multi-Motion Dectector
DatSwan - Jailkeeper
Haddock - Targeted Active Enabler
hypercube - VT

LaLight - Ninja/Strong-Willed Restricted Goon

mail-mi - 2-shot Active Bulletproof/1-shot Semi-Loyal Vigilante Modified Odd-Night Cult Leader Even-Night Modified Redirector

Alive People:
2.71828..... - 1 shot copping governor
SpaceAnemone - X-shot modified voyeur
WestCoastDidds - Neighborizing Tracker
ashersky - ?-shot trade-off-for-being-hated vigilante + ???
UmbrageOfSnow - Doctor + 1-shot power enhancer
jotheonah - ???
Awaclus - ???
Glooble - ???

Am I missing anything?
Town having a JK, vig, doctor, copping governor, tracker, voyeur, motion detector.....It just seems like too much.  Granted, scum did have a powerful role with full strong-willed ninja, but still this is a lot for town to have. 
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 09, 2019, 06:09:00 am
Sorry guys, I failed you all.  I posted the 3 ?s without modifying them or turning smileys off.  So embarrassing.  If only I could edit to change my ??? to ???
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Glooble on February 09, 2019, 06:34:06 am
Umbrage of Snow

I pretty much agree with e’s assessment, with the exception that I still think Awaclus is a possibility.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Glooble on February 09, 2019, 06:34:50 am
Sorry, that was meant to be vote: UmbrageOfSnow
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: ashersky on February 09, 2019, 07:43:00 am
vote count pleasd
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on February 09, 2019, 07:43:32 am
Jotheonah - did you target anyone last night with an action?  I don't really care what your power is (have you claimed anything?  I am losing track), just want the validation on WCD's claim.

WCD - what is your role name/description?  Like, quote it as it was given to you by faust.  If you are concerned about the legality of that just confirm with faust exactly what you are allowed to say in the thread.  (mods don't want to just throw out penalties, trust me.)

Good morning! I am asking him now.  This morning I got a message that one of the details of my description was in error, but that it had been fixed now.  It had previously said I was a limited watcher, but not it says that I am a limited tracker. So, up until this morning "track" appeared nowhere in my role which maybe explains why I wasn't able to convey it clearly.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on February 09, 2019, 08:08:55 am
When you said “helped” by claiming, you specifically said because there was no NK on N1. If you think confirming she was blocked on night with no kill helped her, I could only assume you meant because she could have survived the kill having been jailed. But the flip side of that is she could have been blocked from doing the kill.

Now in your response to me, you leave that aside and talk about SA claiming to have been blocked and confirming that for her. Inconsistencies continue. This doesn’t help your cause.

This is the first time ever that I haven't been a vanilla version of something. In the Dirk Gently game I was non-aligned, but I didn't develop any powers before I was lynched D2, and I was a VT in my other three games. So, I have zero experience using and describing roles/abilities. If you read me with that understanding, would you come to a different conclusion? I don't doubt there are inconsistencies in what I have, but are they differences that matter or the kind of differences that arise when someone is new to a vocabulary? If I am blundering about, it is most definitely not calculated.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on February 09, 2019, 08:40:50 am
Debatepro and I are headed up to Austin to play Scythe today so I won't be around again (in any real way) until the evening.
Happy Saturday, friends!
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 09, 2019, 12:39:16 pm
So, I convinced Glooble. Anyone else want on the wagon?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 09, 2019, 12:40:22 pm
Umbrage of Snow

I pretty much agree with e’s assessment, with the exception that I still think Awaclus is a possibility.

And yeah, like I was saying, I really don't know where to go for scum tomorrow. (Regardless of what UoS flips)
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Awaclus on February 09, 2019, 01:07:56 pm
vote count pleasd

It's this but with Glooble on UoS.

Vote Count 4.2

UmbrageOfSnow (1): 2.71828.....
jotheonah (1): UmbrageOfSnow
WestCoastDidds (2): Awaclus, ashersky

Not Voting (4): SpaceAnemone, WestCoastDidds, jotheonah, Glooble

With 8 alive, it takes 5 to lynch. Day 3 ends on February 13, 2019, 12:00:00 pm.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: jotheonah on February 09, 2019, 02:08:35 pm
I targeted two people last night and neither of the things happened. I continue to town-read WCD but these inconsistencies are making me mad nervous. I’d be willing to vote snow again.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: jotheonah on February 09, 2019, 02:13:30 pm
Eh, looking at my QT with WCD she’s been consistent in explaining how her power works. And I don’t really trust Faust’s mod judgement re: punishments for obvious reasons. So I’m team WCD.

vote: UmbrageOfSnow
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: jotheonah on February 09, 2019, 02:18:47 pm
Actually, vote: e

If e is town, we get Asher as a real IC and we don’t lose much. Since he was a one-shot and his shot’s gone. Whereas if Snow is town we lose a full doc. I have not much reason to believe one over the other, so e is a better lynch.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 09, 2019, 02:22:20 pm
Actually, vote: e

If e is town, we get Asher as a real IC and we don’t lose much. Since he was a one-shot and his shot’s gone. Whereas if Snow is town we lose a full doc. I have not much reason to believe one over the other, so e is a better lynch.

Your reasoning behind this vote is to lynch the least bad town instead of going after actual scum.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 09, 2019, 02:23:03 pm
Which is a bad reason to lynch someone
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: jotheonah on February 09, 2019, 02:28:19 pm
Nah. I think you’re equally likely to be scum, so I’m using claimed town powers as a tiebreaker.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: jotheonah on February 09, 2019, 02:30:04 pm
It’s more than that. Now that UoS has claimed, his surviving the night would be a lot of evidence toward him being scum. Also I don’t trust you enough to let you and ash be fake ICs for the rest of the game, so it’s better to settle the matter now.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on February 09, 2019, 03:28:35 pm
I am not exactly sure what a motion detector is since its described as a monitor to me, but they sound similar. DatSwan had a bunch of questions like this, which led to the quoting of my role in my QT with him. I don't quite understand what I am doing wrong linguistically, but it sounds like maybe I am using a term of art incorrectly.

So you told me you were a motion detector, even though your role said you were a monitor of some sort. And now you're saying that actually, it said all along that you're a watcher, except that faust really meant to say you're a tracker. Does that cover it?

Can you also confirm that you agree that you really did say that you'd quoted from your QT with Swan initially, but that you then updated yourself to say that you were quoting something in that QT? This one still worries me, because while the motion detector issue is a question of mafia rules/familiarity, this other one is a question of use of English, which I understand you're something of an expert at!

I do agree with e that you sound really townie -- I've been saying that all along -- but I also know you're smart, and I don't want to underestimate you. So if we as a town are going to overlook these scumslip-magnitude u-turns, then I want to document it here for future reference!
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on February 09, 2019, 03:29:59 pm
I think the e-Ash stuff from D1 appears not to have any outstanding contradictions, right?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on February 09, 2019, 03:32:12 pm
Awaclus, WCD, Space, Glooble, and jotheonah all feel pretty town to me.  If I had to rank them probably (town to scum):
Awaclus
Glooble
Jotheonah
WCD
Space

Could you remind me where all this high-town-likelihood on Awaclus comes from?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Awaclus on February 09, 2019, 03:35:54 pm
It's not difficult to "sound towny". I don't think we should ignore blatant contradictions in claims, being on-wagon for what was probably a town lynch, and being off-wagon for what was a scum lynch just because someone "sounds towny".
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 09, 2019, 05:06:53 pm
It's not difficult to "sound towny". I don't think we should ignore blatant contradictions in claims, being on-wagon for what was probably a town lynch, and being off-wagon for what was a scum lynch just because someone "sounds towny".

Ashersky or someone else with more experience could probably say better, but botching claims in RMMs seem to be more a town trait than scum. This is different than what we saw from mail-mi with their intentionally false claim. WCD rather just described his action using wrong mafia terminology, but they still claimed what they actually did consistently. Which I think is more townie coming from WCD.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Awaclus on February 09, 2019, 05:10:38 pm
It's not difficult to "sound towny". I don't think we should ignore blatant contradictions in claims, being on-wagon for what was probably a town lynch, and being off-wagon for what was a scum lynch just because someone "sounds towny".

Ashersky or someone else with more experience could probably say better

As it turns out, ashersky agrees with me.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 09, 2019, 05:39:20 pm
It's not difficult to "sound towny". I don't think we should ignore blatant contradictions in claims, being on-wagon for what was probably a town lynch, and being off-wagon for what was a scum lynch just because someone "sounds towny".

Ashersky or someone else with more experience could probably say better

As it turns out, ashersky agrees with me.

And you know what, you guys could be right.  But I don't think so.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 09, 2019, 05:41:47 pm
Right now we just need more discussion though.  European time takes some getting used to.  Hopefully I wake up to some good discussion.  But it is the weekend.


Joth, I do hope you place a vote before your V/LA starts
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: jotheonah on February 09, 2019, 06:47:41 pm
I did place a vote.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: jotheonah on February 09, 2019, 06:49:14 pm
I would encourage others to vote e as well. I think it’s the lynch that beat positions us going into the next day.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: ashersky on February 09, 2019, 06:57:27 pm
I would encourage others to vote e as well. I think it’s the lynch that beat positions us going into the next day.

I don’t see this getting much traction. At this point 2.7 is probably the most likely rethink at lylo candidate.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: ashersky on February 09, 2019, 06:57:59 pm
It's not difficult to "sound towny". I don't think we should ignore blatant contradictions in claims, being on-wagon for what was probably a town lynch, and being off-wagon for what was a scum lynch just because someone "sounds towny".

Ashersky or someone else with more experience could probably say better

As it turns out, ashersky agrees with me.

I do, here.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: ashersky on February 09, 2019, 06:59:18 pm
SA pointed it out too. Motion detector then watcher then tracker...that’s not a town botched confusion mistake. I mean, the right words are in the role assignment from the mod to begin with.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Awaclus on February 09, 2019, 07:01:58 pm
SA pointed it out too. Motion detector then watcher then tracker...that’s not a town botched confusion mistake. I mean, the right words are in the role assignment from the mod to begin with.

It's also easy to claim that the mod made a mistake in your role PM and that's why your claim was inconsistent. There's no way to verify that. The only part that we do know for sure is that the claim was inconsistent.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Awaclus on February 09, 2019, 07:04:52 pm
I think it’s the lynch that beat positions us going into the next day.

The lynch that... what?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Awaclus on February 09, 2019, 07:07:30 pm
I could lynch e I guess, but WCD is obviously way more suspicious. Hitting scum today would be pretty nice.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on February 09, 2019, 08:56:46 pm
SA pointed it out too. Motion detector then watcher then tracker...that’s not a town botched confusion mistake. I mean, the right words are in the role assignment from the mod to begin with.

Ugh. I thought a motion detector and a watcher were the same thing. That was a newb mistake. And it would indeed be helpful if the right words were in the role assignment but they weren't. This morning I was told that there was an error in my role description and that it had been fixed. Now instead of limited watcher it is limited tracker. The role, he said, works the same.  So the descriptions of what I can do have been consistent.  I just didn't know that was called tracking. The word "track" is not in the description of the ability. It just talks about targets and targeting targets, etc.  I don't know what I can do to prove that this was not just my error but was compounded by an error by the mod. When you read my QT with faust, how about you owe me a beer?

E, he said I could quote it....so my the role description is Radch-aligned Day and Night (Limited Tracking) Neighborizer.  Up until earlier today, the parenthetical part of the description was (Limited Watching). I think this was probably a NBD mod error for most people. It just happened to be that the person who got the role in this case doesn't know the difference between watching and tracking so described it incorrectly in the game.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on February 09, 2019, 10:02:02 pm
Space,

So you told me you were a motion detector, even though your role said you were a monitor of some sort. And now you're saying that actually, it said all along that you're a watcher, except that faust really meant to say you're a tracker. Does that cover it?

Yes. I explained this in the response to Ashersky. The word "track" was in not part of my descriptor or the explanation of how my role works until this morning. I didn't know that is what I was. If DatSwan and I had longer to talk, I think he would have set me straight. He asked me to tell him the exact text in our QT so he could understand. But then I quoted and then it got locked and then he died.

Can you also confirm that you agree that you really did say that you'd quoted from your QT with Swan initially, but that you then updated yourself to say that you were quoting something in that QT? This one still worries me, because while the motion detector issue is a question of mafia rules/familiarity, this other one is a question of use of English, which I understand you're something of an expert at!

I 100% agree that my post was not clear. Here is what I said
Hi! I did not have chat N3. I quoted something from my QT with DatSwan and the repercussions were not chat ability for N3.
When I said "from my QT with DatSwan" what I was trying to say is that I quoted something from my QT (when I was talking) with DatSwan. I am obviously not trying to hide what happened and it is more clear when a couple of posts after that one when I say
I don't really know why faust decided to resolve it that way. One guess is that because I shared QT info in another QT, none of which was in the game thread, it does make some sense to have it be a QT penalty.

If the quoted material in question was not in the QT with DatSwan, I don't see how it makes sense. Where would the quote I was penalized for be posted, if not the QT? If it had been in the game, you'd have seen it and the penalty would have been public.  I now have 4 QTs that I flip between, so it is a bit confusing. But, its my fault for being unclear.  It's not inconsistent, just not well explained. If it was some sort of slip, I really wouldn't be offering so much information in an attempt to clear it up. Obviously, a better way to say it would have been "I quoted something from my QT with faust when I was posting in the QT with DatSwan." You're right...I know a whole bunch about language and words are kind of my jam. I'd expect better from the professional version of me. This was just a lazy typing error, probably because I was on my phone. There is another error at the end of the sentence..I say "not chat" when that should have been "no chat".

I do agree with e that you sound really townie -- I've been saying that all along -- but I also know you're smart, and I don't want to underestimate you. So if we as a town are going to overlook these scumslip-magnitude u-turns, then I want to document it here for future reference!
Thank you for the grace. I apologize for the wasted time and effort. It wasn't my intention to obfuscate or be unclear. I have been trying to play transparently and I hate it that a perfect storm of inexperience errors, a mod error, and a mod penalty are giving the folks I consider my team reason to doubt me.

TL;DR- Didds was unclear and erroneous, and prone to typos, but is still town
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: jotheonah on February 09, 2019, 10:03:04 pm
Look there’s 8 of us and we’re assuming 2 scum. So a mislynch and a nightkill leaves us at 4 town, 2 scum, which is probably MYLO. So how many days do we want to let e and ash be a big old question mark?

If we lynch WCD, Space, UoS, Awaclus, Glooble, or myself today we will continue to be faced with the e/ash ambiguity. At this point, I am confident investigative roles won’t save us. Additionally, scum won’t do us any favors— if e and ash are town they will certainly leave them alive to keep up the WIFOM. We need to lynch e today.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: ashersky on February 09, 2019, 10:58:40 pm
Joth, I think I’d lynch you before 2.7 today.

WCD: where did you get motion detector from?  That’s the huge inconsistency problem I have.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: faust on February 10, 2019, 01:42:02 am
Vote Count 4.3

UmbrageOfSnow (2): 2.71828....., Glooble
jotheonah (1): UmbrageOfSnow
WestCoastDidds (2): Awaclus, ashersky
2.71828..... (1): jotheonah

Not Voting (2): SpaceAnemone, WestCoastDidds

With 8 alive, it takes 5 to lynch. Day 3 ends on February 13, 2019, 12:00:00 pm.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 10, 2019, 02:44:33 am
I did place a vote.

Would you look at that, I missed your vote somehow looking back.

Now could you place a useful vote before you leave? I am a firm believer in voting either WCD or UoS today, I just don't think there are better wagons for today
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 10, 2019, 04:01:27 am
Town having full doc AND full JK (effectively 2 docs) seems pretty powerful.

I'm not exactly a full doc, but the details are none of anyones business, you lynch me or scum NKs me and you can figure it out from my flip probably. I absolutely will not claim the details of that part of the role.

Actually, the details are our business since we are trying to figure out if you are town.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 10, 2019, 04:03:39 am
who we would rather lynch:

WCD who is literally answering every single question asked of them and hiding nothing at all or actively duplicitous UoS who is hiding portions of their role when it could help us identify them as town?

The more WCD posts the more I believe them, the more UoS posts the less I believe them.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 10, 2019, 04:04:51 am
Also, you say you aren't a full doc, and yet you also claim to have protected me N1 and Ash N2/N3.  How is that not a full doc?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Glooble on February 10, 2019, 07:25:06 am
Look there’s 8 of us and we’re assuming 2 scum. So a mislynch and a nightkill leaves us at 4 town, 2 scum, which is probably MYLO. So how many days do we want to let e and ash be a big old question mark?

If we lynch WCD, Space, UoS, Awaclus, Glooble, or myself today we will continue to be faced with the e/ash ambiguity. At this point, I am confident investigative roles won’t save us. Additionally, scum won’t do us any favors— if e and ash are town they will certainly leave them alive to keep up the WIFOM. We need to lynch e today.

I don’t get how e flipping town makes ash an IC? There’s still The Godfather possibility. I think if we wanted to lynch one of ash or e based on your logic ash is the better lynch - your analysis doesn’t account for the possibility of leaving scum with a day shot in MYLO. But given the evidence before us I think UoS is a better lynch today than either of them.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: ashersky on February 10, 2019, 07:46:24 am
When I flip town, it does nothing to prove 2.7 is town, since lying scum can generally fake a cop result very easily.

The truth is, lynching either of us does nothing to clear to other, so joth’s rationalization is false and scummy.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: jotheonah on February 10, 2019, 09:03:27 am
I have one more question for e.

Why were you so insistent on getting UoS’s claim? You really clammored for it and then didn’t even respond to it when it came.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: jotheonah on February 10, 2019, 09:04:22 am
When I flip town, it does nothing to prove 2.7 is town, since lying scum can generally fake a cop result very easily.

The truth is, lynching either of us does nothing to clear to other, so joth’s rationalization is false and scummy.

This is false. So obviously false that it makes you look scummy.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: jotheonah on February 10, 2019, 09:08:42 am
Ashersky flipping town wouldn’t IC e, but it would eliminate the possibility of an e/ash team which is the big danger here.

Regardless, I’m arguing for an e lynch. And if we really believe that a town result from a confirmed cop is meaningless, then why have we been treating ash like an IC all game? Why didn’t we re-lynch him on day 2? A cop result might have a tiny chance of being wrong but that’s not the same as saying it’s meanongless. We’ve been treating this cop result as gospel all day without a shred of proof that the person claiming it is town, and now you and Glooble are saying that if we get that proof it will somehow become less valuable? Huh?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Glooble on February 10, 2019, 09:25:24 am
Ashersky flipping town wouldn’t IC e, but it would eliminate the possibility of an e/ash team which is the big danger here.

Regardless, I’m arguing for an e lynch. And if we really believe that a town result from a confirmed cop is meaningless, then why have we been treating ash like an IC all game? Why didn’t we re-lynch him on day 2? A cop result might have a tiny chance of being wrong but that’s not the same as saying it’s meanongless. We’ve been treating this cop result as gospel all day without a shred of proof that the person claiming it is town, and now you and Glooble are saying that if we get that proof it will somehow become less valuable? Huh?

If we lynch ash, we get to see her role. So if she’s scum, but her role says “godfather” we can still trust e. If she’s scum and her role doesn’t say godfather, we lynch e immediately. If she’s town we still have the possibility that e is scum, but we don’t have the possibility of scum with a daykill.

I really think if we’re goinn to lynch one of either e or ash, it should be ash.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: ashersky on February 10, 2019, 09:48:31 am
Glooble is right; if you want to lynch from the pair, you get more out of lynching me, I think.

Lynch 2.7 and flips scum, learn zilch about ash. Flips town cop, still suspect me as godfather because tunneling is your thing.

Lynch ash and flips town, learn zilch about 2.7.  (That’s what will happen.). Flips scum not gf, caught 2.7. Flips scum gf, learn zilch about 2.7.

So, you get 50% zilch from my lynch, 66% zilch from 2.7, from an outside perspective.  From my perspective, lynching me gets you nothing because my town flip doesn’t do anything but prove your nonsense theory wrong. Lynching 2.7 also gets you nothing because you will gunnel me regardless.

Meanwhile, literally every other player in the game seems like a better lynch than either of us, based on “post-lynch info” possibilities.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: ashersky on February 10, 2019, 09:50:58 am
I do promise you this: get two votes on me (other than two twins) and I will hammer.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Awaclus on February 10, 2019, 10:01:33 am
I do promise you this: get two votes on me (other than two twins) and I will hammer.

Are you still double hated?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Awaclus on February 10, 2019, 10:06:40 am
If ash is still double hated then we either have to hit scum today or we have to lynch ash today (or both).
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 10, 2019, 10:12:11 am
If ash is still double hated then we either have to hit scum today or we have to lynch ash today (or both).

I say we lynch scum, not ashersky.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 10, 2019, 10:13:19 am
Also space and WCD need to vote.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Awaclus on February 10, 2019, 10:21:27 am
If ash is still double hated then we either have to hit scum today or we have to lynch ash today (or both).

I say we lynch scum, not ashersky.

Good idea. Then you should join the WCD wagon to make that more likely to happen.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: jotheonah on February 10, 2019, 10:36:16 am
vote: ashersky

You’ve convinced me.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: jotheonah on February 10, 2019, 10:38:06 am
Also, reread this day and tell me again I’m tunneling. I’ve been vascillating back and forth between e and UoS. I’m not at all sure who scum is. You can accuse me of many things, but tunneling? Nah.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 10, 2019, 10:51:59 am
Also, reread this day and tell me again I’m tunneling. I’ve been vascillating back and forth between e and UoS. I’m not at all sure who scum is. You can accuse me of many things, but tunneling? Nah.

I won't call it tunneling then, I will call it misguided.

There are a million reasons to lynch either WCD or UoS today.  Everyone else is just kind of on the outside and we can figure it out tomorrow.  Voting outside of {WCD, UoS} is just plain scummy in my opinion.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 10, 2019, 10:52:40 am
I totally understand why people believe WCD to be scum.  I will join the wagon if I need to to get a lynch because we need a lynch.  I just think it is a mistake.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 10, 2019, 11:01:10 am
joth, are you going to be totally v/la or will you be able to come back and potentially switch to a wagon near deadline for a lynch?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on February 10, 2019, 11:25:21 am
Also space and WCD need to vote.

Agreed. Amongst other things, I'd like to know the answer to this question, which you seem to have ignored in spite of addressing the very next question in the thread:

Could you remind me where all this high-town-likelihood on Awaclus comes from?

I agree with you that UoS and WCD seem to be top contenders for today's lynch, but I don't understand why Awaclus is off the table from your PoV.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on February 10, 2019, 11:26:27 am
WCD: where did you get motion detector from?  That’s the huge inconsistency problem I have.

I have my suspicions, but I'd like to see WCD address this herself.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: jotheonah on February 10, 2019, 11:28:51 am
joth, are you going to be totally v/la or will you be able to come back and potentially switch to a wagon near deadline for a lynch?

I can pop in.

I’ll vote for Snow to keep the lynch from being WCD.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: jotheonah on February 10, 2019, 11:30:55 am
So far, ppl are saying WCD is scummy because of these inconsistencies, but no one can say what pro-scum agenda has been accomplished by those inconsistencies. This isn’t someone changing their story in a convenient way, it’s just someone changing their story. That’s why I believe WCD.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on February 10, 2019, 11:32:50 am
Ashersky or someone else with more experience could probably say better, but botching claims in RMMs seem to be more a town trait than scum. This is different than what we saw from mail-mi with their intentionally false claim. WCD rather just described his action using wrong mafia terminology, but they still claimed what they actually did consistently. Which I think is more townie coming from WCD.

I find it ironic that in a game in which many players are making a conscious effort to use "default-she/her" for flavour reasons, you have managed to use "his" by default (I assume!?) for the only player in this entire game who uses "she/her" pronouns in normal games :-P
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: jotheonah on February 10, 2019, 11:33:22 am
Also, reread this day and tell me again I’m tunneling. I’ve been vascillating back and forth between e and UoS. I’m not at all sure who scum is. You can accuse me of many things, but tunneling? Nah.

I won't call it tunneling then, I will call it misguided.

There are a million reasons to lynch either WCD or UoS today.  Everyone else is just kind of on the outside and we can figure it out tomorrow.  Voting outside of {WCD, UoS} is just plain scummy in my opinion.

Why? The cases on both of them are garbage cases. When did they become the only lynch options?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Glooble on February 10, 2019, 11:41:13 am
Also space and WCD need to vote.

Agreed. Amongst other things, I'd like to know the answer to this question, which you seem to have ignored in spite of addressing the very next question in the thread:

Could you remind me where all this high-town-likelihood on Awaclus comes from?

I agree with you that UoS and WCD seem to be top contenders for today's lynch, but I don't understand why Awaclus is off the table from your PoV.

I’m totally happy to lynch Awaclus.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: jotheonah on February 10, 2019, 11:43:05 am
I have one more question for e.

Why were you so insistent on getting UoS’s claim? You really clammored for it and then didn’t even respond to it when it came.

E, please answer this question.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 10, 2019, 11:46:41 am
I have one more question for e.

Why were you so insistent on getting UoS’s claim? You really clammored for it and then didn’t even respond to it when it came.

E, please answer this question.

Because I wanted to make an informed decision about lynching rather than just lynch based on PoE
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on February 10, 2019, 11:47:38 am
So far, ppl are saying WCD is scummy because of these inconsistencies, but no one can say what pro-scum agenda has been accomplished by those inconsistencies. This isn’t someone changing their story in a convenient way, it’s just someone changing their story. That’s why I believe WCD.

It's absolutely consistent with a scum-slip, because it's possible she quoted from her QT with Swan back in the scum QT, and was then penalised for it.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 10, 2019, 11:48:46 am
Also space and WCD need to vote.

Agreed. Amongst other things, I'd like to know the answer to this question, which you seem to have ignored in spite of addressing the very next question in the thread:

Could you remind me where all this high-town-likelihood on Awaclus comes from?

I agree with you that UoS and WCD seem to be top contenders for today's lynch, but I don't understand why Awaclus is off the table from your PoV.

I think Awaclus has had a very townie game. Basically my read on them is gut when it comes down to it. Why is Awaclus on the table from your POV?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 10, 2019, 11:53:29 am
Ashersky or someone else with more experience could probably say better, but botching claims in RMMs seem to be more a town trait than scum. This is different than what we saw from mail-mi with their intentionally false claim. WCD rather just described his action using wrong mafia terminology, but they still claimed what they actually did consistently. Which I think is more townie coming from WCD.

I find it ironic that in a game in which many players are making a conscious effort to use "default-she/her" for flavour reasons, you have managed to use "his" by default (I assume!?) for the only player in this entire game who uses "she/her" pronouns in normal games :-P

Oops,sorry about that one. I have been trying to make sure I use the right pronoun I just messed up that time, especially bad since WCD is actually a "she"
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Glooble on February 10, 2019, 11:57:19 am
Also space and WCD need to vote.

Agreed. Amongst other things, I'd like to know the answer to this question, which you seem to have ignored in spite of addressing the very next question in the thread:

Could you remind me where all this high-town-likelihood on Awaclus comes from?

I agree with you that UoS and WCD seem to be top contenders for today's lynch, but I don't understand why Awaclus is off the table from your PoV.

I think Awaclus has had a very townie game. Basically my read on them is gut when it comes down to it. Why is Awaclus on the table from your POV?

I know this question is directed at Space, but I’ll give my answer as well. Awaclus tried to stop the LaLight lynch while still claiming she thought LaLight was scum. That seemed hedgy and scummy to me. Later, Awaclus quick-hammered mail-mi before everyone had a chance to question her or weigh-in on what we should do in light of her full claim. Awaclus also spent much of day two trying to push a lynch on me for frankly nonsensical reasons. All of these constitute my case on Awaclus.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on February 10, 2019, 11:59:51 am
I think Awaclus has had a very townie game. Basically my read on them is gut when it comes down to it. Why is Awaclus on the table from your POV?

I see Awaclus and UoS as being roughly on a par in terms of unknowability right now, so it's interesting that one is your top scumread and the other is your top townread (other than Ash).
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 10, 2019, 12:22:21 pm
I think Awaclus has had a very townie game. Basically my read on them is gut when it comes down to it. Why is Awaclus on the table from your POV?

I see Awaclus and UoS as being roughly on a par in terms of unknowability right now, so it's interesting that one is your top scumread and the other is your top townread (other than Ash).

Well, I would want Awaclus to claim to get closer to the same level of unknowability.  And Awaclus has been townie and UoS has not
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: jotheonah on February 10, 2019, 12:32:37 pm
Anyone else think e’s arbitrary and demanding attempt to shrink the lynchpool feels pretty scummy?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 10, 2019, 12:57:59 pm
Anyone else think e’s arbitrary and demanding attempt to shrink the lynchpool feels pretty scummy?

Would you rather me open it back up for today to include you?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 10, 2019, 12:58:30 pm
Anyone else think e’s arbitrary and demanding attempt to shrink the lynchpool feels pretty scummy?

Also, as pseudo-IC I am allowed to do that
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: jotheonah on February 10, 2019, 01:07:49 pm
Anyone else think e’s arbitrary and demanding attempt to shrink the lynchpool feels pretty scummy?

Also, as pseudo-IC I am allowed to do that

I am doing my level best to convince everyone that you have not earned that title.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 10, 2019, 01:09:49 pm
Anyone else think e’s arbitrary and demanding attempt to shrink the lynchpool feels pretty scummy?

Also, as pseudo-IC I am allowed to do that

I am doing my level best to convince everyone that you have not earned that title.

I didn't earn it- you have it to me
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 10, 2019, 01:10:04 pm
*gave
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: jotheonah on February 10, 2019, 01:17:06 pm
So let’s turn this around. Will someone not named e please tell me what e has actually done to earn anything approaching IC status?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Glooble on February 10, 2019, 01:39:59 pm
Remember when I said I was a pseudo- IC and ash and e both said that was scummy?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 10, 2019, 01:47:33 pm
Remember when I said I was a pseudo- IC and ash and e both said that was scummy?

I don't actually
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on February 10, 2019, 01:49:24 pm
Joth, I think I’d lynch you before 2.7 today.

WCD: where did you get motion detector from?  That’s the huge inconsistency problem I have.

Inconsistency, in this case, is actually ignorance.

I googled mafia and limited watcher. It gave me this: https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Motion_Detector

Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on February 10, 2019, 02:02:38 pm
In a me or UoS choice, I prefer UoS! 

vote: UoS

And as e has pointed out, I have answered every single question I have been given...even when the answers are embarrassingly ignorant. I am not hiding anything about my role ability, even though it has led to way too much explanation about my thought processes, and others can verify who I have been talking to and what we have been talking about.

If I was scum, why bother sharing information about Space's thought processes about LL that helped move suspicion off her for being off wagon? Or share the DatSwan JKing info? All of the moves that I am making are pro-town. The places where I have screwed up have been in vocabulary and explanation. One former due to a level of misunderstanding and the latter due to communication solely through a written medium.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: Glooble on February 10, 2019, 02:03:14 pm
Remember when I said I was a pseudo- IC and ash and e both said that was scummy?

I don't actually

vote: ashersky

We’ve been excusing a lot of blatantly anti-town behavior because of a cop claim (which could be faked in multiple ways) and setup WIFOM.  But none of that excuses pushing for a quick lynch when we still have three days until the deadline. If ash had another shot she would have fired it by now. She’s contributed minimally in terms of scumhunting or starting wagons, instead coming in on already established ones or voting for me for nonsensical reasons.

Well at this point I’m more of an IC than ash is. I started the LL lynch and you can’t argue a scum would do that.

I’m a lot less certain about Space after these claims, but I’m a lot more certain about ash after her attempts to prevent them.

This comes across very scummy.

Bolding mine.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: ashersky on February 10, 2019, 05:08:30 pm
Joth, I think I’d lynch you before 2.7 today.

WCD: where did you get motion detector from?  That’s the huge inconsistency problem I have.

Inconsistency, in this case, is actually ignorance.

I googled mafia and limited watcher. It gave me this: https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Motion_Detector

I googled the same thing just now and that result did not come up on the first page of results.

vote: wcd

I don’t honestly know what the scum narrative is for all of this, other than a hole dug so deep the only way out is the rest of the way through the earth. But there is only so much room for newbie mistakes in a story.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 10, 2019, 05:13:57 pm
Joth, I think I’d lynch you before 2.7 today.

WCD: where did you get motion detector from?  That’s the huge inconsistency problem I have.

Inconsistency, in this case, is actually ignorance.

I googled mafia and limited watcher. It gave me this: https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Motion_Detector

I googled the same thing just now and that result did not come up on the first page of results.

Pretty sure Google results are tailored to the individual (at least on some level)?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 10, 2019, 05:16:27 pm
I also love the vote for additional emphasis seeing as how you were already voting WCD
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 10, 2019, 05:18:06 pm
Remember when I said I was a pseudo- IC and ash and e both said that was scummy?

I don't actually

vote: ashersky

We’ve been excusing a lot of blatantly anti-town behavior because of a cop claim (which could be faked in multiple ways) and setup WIFOM.  But none of that excuses pushing for a quick lynch when we still have three days until the deadline. If ash had another shot she would have fired it by now. She’s contributed minimally in terms of scumhunting or starting wagons, instead coming in on already established ones or voting for me for nonsensical reasons.

Well at this point I’m more of an IC than ash is. I started the LL lynch and you can’t argue a scum would do that.

I’m a lot less certain about Space after these claims, but I’m a lot more certain about ash after her attempts to prevent them.

This comes across very scummy.

Bolding mine.

I was more thinking the first paragraph throwing extra shade on ashersky. I think? That was a week ago, basically an eternity
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 10, 2019, 05:19:15 pm
SA's hesitancy to vote is scummy in my opinion.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Awaclus on February 10, 2019, 05:20:41 pm
Awaclus tried to stop the LaLight lynch while still claiming she thought LaLight was scum.

I have addressed this already. I never claimed that I thought LaLight was scum and I never tried to stop the lynch. Why do you continue to say that even though it's not true?

Later, Awaclus quick-hammered mail-mi before everyone had a chance to question her or weigh-in on what we should do in light of her full claim.

Yes. Giving people of non-town alignments a chance to chime in instead of guaranteeing that the decision is made only by town is not towny.

Awaclus also spent much of day two trying to push a lynch on me for frankly nonsensical reasons. All of these constitute my case on Awaclus.

You have also spent much of the game trying to push a lynch on me for frankly nonsensical reasons.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Awaclus on February 10, 2019, 05:21:51 pm
So far, ppl are saying WCD is scummy because of these inconsistencies, but no one can say what pro-scum agenda has been accomplished by those inconsistencies. This isn’t someone changing their story in a convenient way, it’s just someone changing their story. That’s why I believe WCD.

Screwing up a fakeclaim doesn't accomplish any pro-scum agenda. It still means you're scum.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Awaclus on February 10, 2019, 05:30:41 pm
Also is UoS at L-2? Someone should probably unvote to make sure scum doesn't quickhammer him today and ashersky tomorrow.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Awaclus on February 10, 2019, 05:33:30 pm
Actually I guess that's pretty unlikely to happen anyway.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: jotheonah on February 10, 2019, 05:36:52 pm
So far, ppl are saying WCD is scummy because of these inconsistencies, but no one can say what pro-scum agenda has been accomplished by those inconsistencies. This isn’t someone changing their story in a convenient way, it’s just someone changing their story. That’s why I believe WCD.

Screwing up a fakeclaim doesn't accomplish any pro-scum agenda. It still means you're scum.

WCD’s power works as described. This is not in dispute.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Awaclus on February 10, 2019, 05:39:25 pm
WCD’s power works as described. This is not in dispute.

Does it?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: jotheonah on February 10, 2019, 05:42:36 pm
WCD has also been asking me to help direct her night actions in our QT. That’s pretty towny. Especially since it’s verifiable tomorrow.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: jotheonah on February 10, 2019, 05:44:08 pm
People who mocked my UoS case at the start of the day who are now voting for UoS— what changed?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Awaclus on February 10, 2019, 05:55:24 pm
WCD has also been asking me to help direct her night actions in our QT. That’s pretty towny. Especially since it’s verifiable tomorrow.

And how do I know that you're town?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: jotheonah on February 10, 2019, 05:56:37 pm
WCD has also been asking me to help direct her night actions in our QT. That’s pretty towny. Especially since it’s verifiable tomorrow.

And how do I know that you're town?

I think I just exude an undeniable aura of towniness.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Awaclus on February 10, 2019, 05:57:21 pm
WCD has also been asking me to help direct her night actions in our QT. That’s pretty towny. Especially since it’s verifiable tomorrow.

And how do I know that you're town?

I think I just exude an undeniable aura of towniness.

You don't though.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: jotheonah on February 10, 2019, 05:59:22 pm
Well ask Space then. I bet the same thing happened in their QT.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on February 10, 2019, 06:04:29 pm
SA's hesitancy to vote is scummy in my opinion.

Think what you want about me not wanting to put a vote down while I'm still making up my mind.

I ended up with an unexpected scumread on my top townread, and I started the day feeling pretty much on the vote-for-joth side of the Joth-v-UoS debate, so the options for good places to put my vote are limited.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on February 10, 2019, 06:08:27 pm
WCD has also been asking me to help direct her night actions in our QT. That’s pretty towny. Especially since it’s verifiable tomorrow.

You weren't one of the people I recommended talking to, so I guess there's a limit to what advice she'll take, or Swan's advice trumped mine!
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on February 10, 2019, 06:13:40 pm
Joth, I think I’d lynch you before 2.7 today.

WCD: where did you get motion detector from?  That’s the huge inconsistency problem I have.

Inconsistency, in this case, is actually ignorance.

I googled mafia and limited watcher. It gave me this: https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Motion_Detector

Huh.. that's not the answer I thought you would give.

I thought that since mcmc had just flipped Motion Detector, and you had clearly been aware of the details of his flip when we were talking, that you's say that that was where you'd got the idea that motion detector was what your power did.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on February 10, 2019, 06:16:34 pm
So far, ppl are saying WCD is scummy because of these inconsistencies, but no one can say what pro-scum agenda has been accomplished by those inconsistencies. This isn’t someone changing their story in a convenient way, it’s just someone changing their story. That’s why I believe WCD.

Screwing up a fakeclaim doesn't accomplish any pro-scum agenda. It still means you're scum.

WCD’s power works as described. This is not in dispute.

What if she roleblocked both of us at the same time as opening the QT, instead of just tracking us? We only have her word for it that I was JKd by swan, and only after Swan's flip.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Awaclus on February 10, 2019, 06:20:27 pm
It almost sounds like e is trying to push a non-ashersky mislynch through.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: jotheonah on February 10, 2019, 06:23:36 pm
So far, ppl are saying WCD is scummy because of these inconsistencies, but no one can say what pro-scum agenda has been accomplished by those inconsistencies. This isn’t someone changing their story in a convenient way, it’s just someone changing their story. That’s why I believe WCD.

Screwing up a fakeclaim doesn't accomplish any pro-scum agenda. It still means you're scum.

WCD’s power works as described. This is not in dispute.

What if she roleblocked both of us at the same time as opening the QT, instead of just tracking us? We only have her word for it that I was JKd by swan, and only after Swan's flip.

...

This is good. This is a good point.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: jotheonah on February 10, 2019, 06:25:52 pm
If you were roleblocked and not JK’d though, we lose our reason for no NK.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: ashersky on February 10, 2019, 07:26:40 pm
If you were roleblocked and not JK’d though, we lose our reason for no NK.

Unless SA did the NK.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: ashersky on February 10, 2019, 07:27:13 pm
Joth, I think I’d lynch you before 2.7 today.

WCD: where did you get motion detector from?  That’s the huge inconsistency problem I have.

Inconsistency, in this case, is actually ignorance.

I googled mafia and limited watcher. It gave me this: https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Motion_Detector

Huh.. that's not the answer I thought you would give.

I thought that since mcmc had just flipped Motion Detector, and you had clearly been aware of the details of his flip when we were talking, that you's say that that was where you'd got the idea that motion detector was what your power did.

Does that also mean WCD thought there were two motion detectors in the game?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on February 10, 2019, 07:35:43 pm
If you were roleblocked and not JK’d though, we lose our reason for no NK.

Unless SA did the NK.

We also have a claimed doctor, unless you know him to be lying?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: UmbrageOfSnow on February 10, 2019, 07:37:22 pm
People who mocked my UoS case at the start of the day who are now voting for UoS— what changed?

I was thinking this too. I still think your case is dumb, but e seemed to be mostly on me to get me to claim but then had all that stuff about me taking the time-where-I'm-never-online to make a fake claim before I said anything, and then as soon as I do I'm the top scum read.

I feel like the wagons on me are going to be really interesting to look at once I'm dead.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: UmbrageOfSnow on February 10, 2019, 07:38:00 pm
Also I'm not getting to most of this until tomorrow, sorry. Weekend sucked.

(Guess there really was no reason to expect me to change  ::) )
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: jotheonah on February 10, 2019, 07:38:09 pm
If you were roleblocked and not JK’d though, we lose our reason for no NK.

Unless SA did the NK.

We also have a claimed doctor, unless you know him to be lying?

Or mail-mi was the target. There are a lot of possibilities.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: UmbrageOfSnow on February 10, 2019, 07:40:09 pm
If you were roleblocked and not JK’d though, we lose our reason for no NK.

Unless SA did the NK.

We also have a claimed doctor, unless you know him to be lying?

It's like Joth knows for sure the NK was on Space

Scumslip? (I can't not say it)
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: ashersky on February 10, 2019, 07:40:51 pm
If you were roleblocked and not JK’d though, we lose our reason for no NK.

Unless SA did the NK.

We also have a claimed doctor, unless you know him to be lying?

Or mail-mi was the target. There are a lot of possibilities.

Says the player who’s post is quoted to be disproved.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: jotheonah on February 10, 2019, 07:41:52 pm
I just thought that was our going explanation right now. I was thinking out loud through the implications of Space's WCD theory, nothing more.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on February 10, 2019, 07:43:05 pm
Joth, I think I’d lynch you before 2.7 today.

WCD: where did you get motion detector from?  That’s the huge inconsistency problem I have.

Inconsistency, in this case, is actually ignorance.

I googled mafia and limited watcher. It gave me this: https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Motion_Detector

Huh.. that's not the answer I thought you would give.

I thought that since mcmc had just flipped Motion Detector, and you had clearly been aware of the details of his flip when we were talking, that you's say that that was where you'd got the idea that motion detector was what your power did.

Does that also mean WCD thought there were two motion detectors in the game?

Yes, though different variants of motion detectors. She should perhaps explain.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Awaclus on February 10, 2019, 08:51:13 pm
Vote: e
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: jotheonah on February 10, 2019, 08:53:06 pm
ooh is this happening now? vote: e
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on February 10, 2019, 10:21:56 pm
WCD has also been asking me to help direct her night actions in our QT. That’s pretty towny. Especially since it’s verifiable tomorrow.

You weren't one of the people I recommended talking to, so I guess there's a limit to what advice she'll take, or Swan's advice trumped mine!

Joth was on your "might know more than he is letting on" list, and most of the of other folks we were interested in are dead and that seemed better than the list of "not likely to talk to me" list. DatSwan recommend choosing someone I thought was town to help build our town faction. So, that is what I did. I had it down to him and Haddock.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on February 10, 2019, 10:28:31 pm
Does that also mean WCD thought there were two motion detectors in the game?

Yes, I did, and largely because I see mcmc and I's roles as similar which is something I said to Space early on in our QT. Perhaps I am still not understanding something... How is a limited tracker or limited watcher (what I thought I was then) different than a motion detector? Is it not a subset of motion detectors (what the wiki site I posted earlier said)? Can you help me understand what I don't grasp here?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Awaclus on February 10, 2019, 10:33:31 pm
Does that also mean WCD thought there were two motion detectors in the game?

Yes, I did, and largely because I see mcmc and I's roles as similar which is something I said to Space early on in our QT. Perhaps I am still not understanding something... How is a limited tracker or limited watcher (what I thought I was then) different than a motion detector? Is it not a subset of motion detectors (what the wiki site I posted earlier said)? Can you help me understand what I don't grasp here?

Watcher tells you who targeted your target, Tracker tells you who was targeted by your target, Motion Detector tells you whether your target targeted someone or was targeted by someone but not who it was.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on February 10, 2019, 10:54:23 pm

Last response to my role explanation/understanding issue and I'll quit spamming the thread.

Huh.. that's not the answer I thought you would give.

I thought that since mcmc had just flipped Motion Detector, and you had clearly been aware of the details of his flip when we were talking, that you's say that that was where you'd got the idea that motion detector was what your power did.

When I got the role, I was more focused on the communication aspects than the "monitoring" parts.

When our QT opened, I immediately told you about the comms part of my role. I thought that was the most interesting part of what I can do. When Mcmc flipped, I looked up his role to try to understand what he did. I did the same with mine...although I used "monitor" in my search since that I was keyed into the description and not the title of the role, and I also looked up all of the modifying words from his role and mine. I asked about those and subsequent revealed ones in the thread, too, because they are often not explained on the internets. When you and I were talking about mcmc's role and the potential similarities to mine in our QT (m10) I called what I could do motion detection because I thought that was what a monitoring function that included finding out who someone I targeted had targeted meant and I was scared to ask that as a question for fear of revealing too much. I also thought that Mcmc was more powerful that I am because her modifiers didn't include "limited".

I see now that what I should have done, from the very start, was ask Space to help me understand my role. That would have been the best use of the QT. I thought I knew what I was saying, I was wrong. Because I was the one who created the neighborhood, I felt like I needed to disclose quite about how I could do that, so I did. Space didn't reveal nearly as much about her abilities as I did, so it felt like we were keeping things back so not the best environment for asking basic questions (although I still had my fair share of those.)

Both DatSwan and Joth have shared more about their abilities from the outset than in that initial conversation (no shade on Space...the game was further along so it seems less risky, I think) and have helped me understand what I do and how it can best be combined with what others do. I am 100% certain that I'd still think I was a limited watcher if this whole conversation had never happened and faust hadn't then changed my description to limited tracker.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on February 10, 2019, 10:56:48 pm
Watcher tells you who targeted your target, Tracker tells you who was targeted by your target, Motion Detector tells you whether your target targeted someone or was targeted by someone but not who it was.

So, is a motion detector both a watcher and a tracker? Or is the motion detector just yes/no? Are these all the same level of powerful? (Thank you!)
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on February 10, 2019, 11:01:43 pm
Yes, though different variants of motion detectors. She should perhaps explain.

Mcmc was a fixed modified multiple-motion detector and I am a limited tracker. So, whatever levels of detection that is, that is what I know to be in the game. Is it unusual? I don't really understand what you'd like me to explain.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Awaclus on February 10, 2019, 11:14:57 pm
So, is a motion detector both a watcher and a tracker? Or is the motion detector just yes/no? Are these all the same level of powerful? (Thank you!)

The motion detector is just yes/no. I would say that in terms of power, Watcher is slightly better than Tracker which is way better than Motion Detector.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 11, 2019, 01:10:38 am
It almost sounds like e is trying to push a non-ashersky mislynch through.

As opposed to an Ashersky mislynch?

Acknowledge, I am tunneling (a bit).  But that is not necessarily a bad thing.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: faust on February 11, 2019, 01:11:34 am
Vote Count 4.4

UmbrageOfSnow (3): 2.71828....., Glooble, WestCoastDidds
jotheonah (1): UmbrageOfSnow
WestCoastDidds (1): ashersky
2.71828..... (2): Awaclus, jotheonah

Not Voting (1): SpaceAnemone

With 8 alive, it takes 5 to lynch. Day 4 ends on February 13, 2019, 12:00:00 pm.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Awaclus on February 11, 2019, 01:31:47 am
As opposed to an Ashersky mislynch?

Yes, so that you can mislynch the double-hated ashersky tomorrow with your scum partner and win.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 11, 2019, 02:22:19 am
As opposed to an Ashersky mislynch?

Yes, so that you can mislynch the double-hated ashersky tomorrow with your scum partner and win.

That applies to any non-ashersky mislynch. So why apply it here to me rather than to WCD or UoS?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Awaclus on February 11, 2019, 02:27:41 am
That applies to any non-ashersky mislynch. So why apply it here to me rather than to WCD or UoS?

What? WCD and UoS haven't been anywhere near as forceful as you have in trying to control today's lynch to your liking.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 11, 2019, 02:32:08 am
That applies to any non-ashersky mislynch. So why apply it here to me rather than to WCD or UoS?

What? WCD and UoS haven't been anywhere near as forceful as you have in trying to control today's lynch to your liking.

True, but that doesn't change the supposed ashersky scenario. Basically, you are letting unobjective bias against tunneling affect your decision making ability for this lunch
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Awaclus on February 11, 2019, 02:36:28 am
That applies to any non-ashersky mislynch. So why apply it here to me rather than to WCD or UoS?

What? WCD and UoS haven't been anywhere near as forceful as you have in trying to control today's lynch to your liking.

True, but that doesn't change the supposed ashersky scenario. Basically, you are letting unobjective bias against tunneling affect your decision making ability for this lunch

I have no idea what you're talking about. Tunneling has nothing to do with why I'm voting for you.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Awaclus on February 11, 2019, 02:41:35 am
In other news, it's getting pretty likely that at least one of these four people is scum:

UmbrageOfSnow (3): 2.71828....., Glooble, WestCoastDidds

Otherwise scum would have quickhammered already.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: ashersky on February 11, 2019, 02:46:59 am
I’ll hammer if someone L-1s.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Awaclus on February 11, 2019, 02:58:38 am
I’ll hammer if someone L-1s.

Why do you disagree with my e case?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: ashersky on February 11, 2019, 03:05:12 am
I’ll hammer if someone L-1s.

Why do you disagree with my e case?

I don’t generally take anything you write to be an actual case.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Awaclus on February 11, 2019, 03:11:33 am
I’ll hammer if someone L-1s.

Why do you disagree with my e case?

I don’t generally take anything you write to be an actual case.

This is different, we're in LyLo.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Awaclus on February 11, 2019, 03:26:40 am
I don't see why this doesn't work.

1) e targets ash with cop governor
2) ash is double hated
3) ash gets 5 votes and is lynched due to being double hated
4) e's governor saves ash
5) ash doesn't die
6) e was really a scum governor all along (with or without the claimed alignment copping ability, doesn't matter)
7) everyone treats e as though he was an IC
8) on D4, we enter 6v2 LyLo because ash is double hated
9) e uses his pseudo-IC status to influence the lynch such that scum wins
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Awaclus on February 11, 2019, 03:27:00 am
 8)
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 11, 2019, 03:42:24 am
In other news, it's getting pretty likely that at least one of these four people is scum:

UmbrageOfSnow (3): 2.71828....., Glooble, WestCoastDidds

Otherwise scum would have quickhammered already.

My money is on UoS
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Awaclus on February 11, 2019, 03:43:40 am
In other news, it's getting pretty likely that at least one of these four people is scum:

UmbrageOfSnow (3): 2.71828....., Glooble, WestCoastDidds

Otherwise scum would have quickhammered already.

My money is on UoS

t. scum
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: jotheonah on February 11, 2019, 06:39:11 am
I don't see why this doesn't work.

1) e targets ash with cop governor
2) ash is double hated
3) ash gets 5 votes and is lynched due to being double hated
4) e's governor saves ash
5) ash doesn't die
6) e was really a scum governor all along (with or without the claimed alignment copping ability, doesn't matter)
7) everyone treats e as though he was an IC
8) on D4, we enter 6v2 LyLo because ash is double hated
9) e uses his pseudo-IC status to influence the lynch such that scum wins

Exactly what I’ve been thinking! I guess Awaclus is my twin now.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 11, 2019, 06:48:07 am
Couple flaws with the theory:

1) ashersky's double hated wasn't known D1
2) I had to select ashersky in my qt during the day to receive protection/investigation

Your theory assumes that I (as scum) had special knowledge of ashersky's role (as town). That I knew ashersky was double hated on D1 assumes that we are of the same scum faction. And then if that is the case it is most profitable for town to lynch ashersky (as ashersky himself addressed).

So either we are both scum together and you should be voting Ash, or we are both town. (According to your theory, we could obviously be different factions, but you are pushing the theory assuming I had non-public information about someone else's role)
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 11, 2019, 06:52:04 am
Also, if I am scum it makes absolutely no sense to save town with a governor power, so when Ash flips town (if you all are silly enough to lynch him) then I am basically confirmed town.

Forget the copping power, just consider the governor. Scum does not use governor on D1 on town
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: jotheonah on February 11, 2019, 06:54:01 am
Theory break.

Plurality lynch means we can’t NL with 4 people left like we normally would.

Ash, if you have a shot I think you really need to take it to maximize our chances. I also think we should be seriously considering the ash policy lynch to avoid the lylo quickhammwr which seems like a super possible outcome no matter who the scum is.

I’m back to vote: ash
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Glooble on February 11, 2019, 06:56:15 am
I have a plan that could potentially forestall that scenario, but it involves today’s lynch being me, so I’m not sure it actually helps.

vote: ashersky for now though.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 11, 2019, 06:56:18 am
Theory break.

Plurality lynch means we can’t NL with 4 people left like we normally would.

Ash, if you have a shot I think you really need to take it to maximize our chances. I also think we should be seriously considering the ash policy lynch to avoid the lylo quickhammwr which seems like a super possible outcome no matter who the scum is.

I’m back to vote: ash

Despite your scumminess here, I still think you are town.

Policy lynches are bad bad bad

We need to lynch scum. That is how town wins. Not by figuring out the least bad town lynch until we are at lylo
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 11, 2019, 06:56:54 am
I have a plan that could potentially forestall that scenario, but it involves today’s lynch being me, so I’m not sure it actually helps.

vote: ashersky for now though.

I really wasn't trying to get ashersky lynched.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 11, 2019, 06:58:45 am
Please, stop voting for ashersky. It gets is nothing at all (except confirming that I am town)
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 11, 2019, 07:00:07 am
Like, seriously guys. Lynching ashersky is a losing plan
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: jotheonah on February 11, 2019, 07:01:03 am
It seems like not lynching ashersky is the losing plan.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: jotheonah on February 11, 2019, 07:02:02 am
unvote
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 11, 2019, 07:03:29 am
It seems like not lynching ashersky is the losing plan.

False. Lynching town is a losing plan. I know you think WCD is one. Who is the other?

Godfather Ashersky?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 11, 2019, 07:04:57 am
Right now I think the remaining scum are SA and UoS
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Awaclus on February 11, 2019, 07:06:05 am
Couple flaws with the theory:

1) ashersky's double hated wasn't known D1
2) I had to select ashersky in my qt during the day to receive protection/investigation

Your theory assumes that I (as scum) had special knowledge of ashersky's role (as town). That I knew ashersky was double hated on D1 assumes that we are of the same scum faction. And then if that is the case it is most profitable for town to lynch ashersky (as ashersky himself addressed).

So either we are both scum together and you should be voting Ash, or we are both town. (According to your theory, we could obviously be different factions, but you are pushing the theory assuming I had non-public information about someone else's role)

My theory doesn't assume that you knew ash was double hated. It's just convenient for you that he turned out to be.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Glooble on February 11, 2019, 07:06:28 am
Lynching ashersky prevents early LyLo and tells us a lot. As Awaclus pointed out, if ashersky flips town, one of me, e, UoS or WCD is definitely scum. Plus what we said before.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: ashersky on February 11, 2019, 07:07:03 am
One of four isn’t that useful.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: ashersky on February 11, 2019, 07:07:19 am
Deadline is coming.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Awaclus on February 11, 2019, 07:07:55 am
Also, if I am scum it makes absolutely no sense to save town with a governor power, so when Ash flips town (if you all are silly enough to lynch him) then I am basically confirmed town.

Forget the copping power, just consider the governor. Scum does not use governor on D1 on town

I think it makes absolutely a ton of sense to do something that will make people think you're confirmed town.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: ashersky on February 11, 2019, 07:08:04 am
vote: UoS

Seems more likely than WCd.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: jotheonah on February 11, 2019, 07:08:43 am
Right now I think the remaining scum are SA and UoS

Convince me.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Awaclus on February 11, 2019, 07:10:30 am
Please, stop voting for ashersky. It gets is nothing at all (except confirming that I am town)

Vote: ashersky
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: jotheonah on February 11, 2019, 07:12:55 am
I think if the e/ash scum team is a thing, they are trying to get WCD lynched today and UoS tomorrow, or the other way around. They'll probably NK me or Awaclus or something.

To me, looking at how the day has been playing out, that scenario seems a bit more likely then a Space/UoS/WCD team.

Despite the pains that e and ash themselves have been taking to convince me that neither of their flips confirm the other one, the e/ash team is the scum narrative that makes the most sense to me. If I can disprove that, then I'll be happy to take the remaining one on faith as town. And then we can look at Space/UoS/WCD.

I really think this is how we win, and it doesn't help that so far the only voices coming out against it are e and ash themselves. I'd really like to hear from Space and Snow on this.

I unvoted for now because ashersky is so quickhammerable.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Awaclus on February 11, 2019, 07:25:27 am
With 8 alive, it takes 5 to lynch. Day 3 ends on February 13, 2019, 12:00:00 pm. This is in just under 11 hours.

February 13, 2019, 12:00:00 pm is on Wednesday, not in under 5 hours? Also I think it should be Day 4, not Day 3.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Awaclus on February 11, 2019, 07:26:55 am
If the deadline is today, I'm not sure if I can make it. I woke up around 14 hours ago, I might not be able to stay up that long.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 11, 2019, 07:29:15 am
If the deadline is today, I'm not sure if I can make it. I woke up around 14 hours ago, I might not be able to stay up that long.

I think the Feb 13 is correct, not the 5 hours
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Glooble on February 11, 2019, 07:38:59 am
I really think if there’s any possibility in your mind that ash and e are the scum team ash is the right lynch today. Awaclus is right- we need to lynch either ash or scum or we just lose. So if you’d rather try and hit scum, that means you’re 100% confident that person is scum. Because otherwise your trading potential future advantage for the possibility of losing immediately.

Put another way- let’s say we were certain either UoS or WCD was scum. Lynching either of them would be 50% chance of hitting scum. Lynching ashersky would still be a 100% chance of lynching ashersky.

Sorry but I’m going with the option that definitely lets us live another day. The fact that I think ash might be scum is just a bonus.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on February 11, 2019, 07:39:33 am
With 8 alive, it takes 5 to lynch. Day 3 ends on February 13, 2019, 12:00:00 pm. This is in just under 11 hours.

February 13, 2019, 12:00:00 pm is on Wednesday, not in under 5 hours? Also I think it should be Day 4, not Day 3.

Ah, I too had been reading 13th and thinking we had till Wednesday. Is there some weirdness with the way the timestamp function is producing dates?

I'm about to take my lunch break here, but otherwise I'm busy at work till ~2/3pm forum time, so if it's a noon forum time deadline that's kind of rushed!
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: faust on February 11, 2019, 07:40:02 am
With 8 alive, it takes 5 to lynch. Day 3 ends on February 13, 2019, 12:00:00 pm. This is in just under 11 hours.

February 13, 2019, 12:00:00 pm is on Wednesday, not in under 5 hours? Also I think it should be Day 4, not Day 3.
Right, sorry, the time is correct, the under 5 hours not. I changed this.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Glooble on February 11, 2019, 07:40:27 am
Ash, if you’re town, do not throw away your shot.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on February 11, 2019, 07:43:40 am
If the deadline is today, I'm not sure if I can make it. I woke up around 14 hours ago, I might not be able to stay up that long.

I think the Feb 13 is correct, not the 5 hours

Yeah, having just checked, D4 definitely started on the 6th, so the 13th makes a one-week day, which is what faust's rules post says.

Maybe it's a sign that our mod really is fallible this time round?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on February 11, 2019, 07:46:20 am
Ash, if you’re town, do not throw away your shot.

Well that's me earwormed for the afternoon :-P
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on February 11, 2019, 07:58:24 am
Right now I think the remaining scum are SA and UoS

Convince me.

Also interested in hearing e’s thoughts.

Looking back over the weekend, I’m struck by how a few well timed questions and follow-ups (from Space, mostly) kept me talking about things other than UoS’s claim or anything else of substance and instead focused almost solely on continue to flesh out my abilities which are rather obviously pro-town. While I got caught up in answering questions about my mistunderstandings, I lost sight of the neighborhooder part of my role. It seems way too powerful to give that to the baddies. That part of my role has been verified by Space and Joth. In the cold light of Monday morning, I can see this as strategic for her in terms of being part of conversations that actually aren’t doing anything to find scum. I still have some inkling that it was Space paranoia, not scumminess, but regardless all of that engagement sidelined more important conversations...someither scum was actively part of it (Space) or staying out of it entirely (UoS).
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on February 11, 2019, 08:00:37 am
I really think if there’s any possibility in your mind that ash and e are the scum team ash is the right lynch today. Awaclus is right- we need to lynch either ash or scum or we just lose. So if you’d rather try and hit scum, that means you’re 100% confident that person is scum. Because otherwise your trading potential future advantage for the possibility of losing immediately.

Put another way- let’s say we were certain either UoS or WCD was scum. Lynching either of them would be 50% chance of hitting scum. Lynching ashersky would still be a 100% chance of lynching ashersky.

Sorry but I’m going with the option that definitely lets us live another day. The fact that I think ash might be scum is just a bonus.

Glooble, can you explain that a bit more for me? Why ash or scum? Well, I get the scum part, so it’s the ash or scum part I need help with.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Awaclus on February 11, 2019, 08:04:20 am
I really think if there’s any possibility in your mind that ash and e are the scum team ash is the right lynch today. Awaclus is right- we need to lynch either ash or scum or we just lose. So if you’d rather try and hit scum, that means you’re 100% confident that person is scum. Because otherwise your trading potential future advantage for the possibility of losing immediately.

Put another way- let’s say we were certain either UoS or WCD was scum. Lynching either of them would be 50% chance of hitting scum. Lynching ashersky would still be a 100% chance of lynching ashersky.

Sorry but I’m going with the option that definitely lets us live another day. The fact that I think ash might be scum is just a bonus.

Glooble, can you explain that a bit more for me? Why ash or scum? Well, I get the scum part, so it’s the ash or scum part I need help with.

Ash is double hated, which means that if he's alive tomorrow, it only takes 2 people voting for him to get him lynched. Which means we lose if he's also town and there are two scums alive.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Awaclus on February 11, 2019, 08:06:00 am
Looking back over the weekend, I’m struck by how a few well timed questions and follow-ups (from Space, mostly) kept me talking about things other than UoS’s claim or anything else of substance and instead focused almost solely on continue to flesh out my abilities which are rather obviously pro-town. While I got caught up in answering questions about my mistunderstandings, I lost sight of the neighborhooder part of my role. It seems way too powerful to give that to the baddies. That part of my role has been verified by Space and Joth. In the cold light of Monday morning, I can see this as strategic for her in terms of being part of conversations that actually aren’t doing anything to find scum. I still have some inkling that it was Space paranoia, not scumminess, but regardless all of that engagement sidelined more important conversations...someither scum was actively part of it (Space) or staying out of it entirely (UoS).

Neighborizer isn't very strong for scum (or town, for that matter).
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on February 11, 2019, 08:08:59 am
Ash is double hated, which means that if he's alive tomorrow, it only takes 2 people voting for him to get him lynched. Which means we lose if he's also town and there are two scums alive.

Oh! Is she still double hated? I thought that was just because she killed Mcmc....it stays with her?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Awaclus on February 11, 2019, 08:15:02 am
Ash is double hated, which means that if he's alive tomorrow, it only takes 2 people voting for him to get him lynched. Which means we lose if he's also town and there are two scums alive.

Oh! Is she still double hated? I thought that was just because she killed Mcmc....it stays with her?

Only ash knows, but I'm assuming yes.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: ashersky on February 11, 2019, 08:20:15 am
Is there any chance we are in lylo today?  We have been making some assumptions but there is no proof there are only two scum.

A missed vig + mislynch is definitely a loss, I think.  Can’t take that risk, honestly, so no shooting from me without a verified result.

Run worst cases with hated players...

lynch me, assume NK, start tomorrow with 6 alive, 3 to lynch joth. No quickhammer assuming two scum, still lylo.

Mislynch today, assume NK, start tomorrow with 6 alive, 2 to lynch me. Game over.

I agree, we have to lynch me or scum. The only discussion is whether taking me +1 out of the pool helps remaining town choose correctly.

vote count please
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Awaclus on February 11, 2019, 08:22:25 am
Also in case there's a lynch while I'm sleeping and I'm the NK, I guess I should say that I used the second part of my role N3 and only N3. Nothing that was talked about in the thread was a result of this.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: ashersky on February 11, 2019, 08:23:54 am
My gut reads, for reference, from scummy to towny:

Joth = Glooble > SA > WCD = UoS > Awaclus = 2.7

I don’t find anyone particularly towny, so put 2.7 at like 30%.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: ashersky on February 11, 2019, 08:24:54 am
No lynch is another option today. See who scum kills off, then lynch me, then true 3v2 lylo.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on February 11, 2019, 08:27:34 am
No lynch is another option today. See who scum kills off, then lynch me, then true 3v2 lylo.

If we don’t lynch, plurality does :(
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: ashersky on February 11, 2019, 08:27:51 am
I really think if there’s any possibility in your mind that ash and e are the scum team ash is the right lynch today. Awaclus is right- we need to lynch either ash or scum or we just lose. So if you’d rather try and hit scum, that means you’re 100% confident that person is scum. Because otherwise your trading potential future advantage for the possibility of losing immediately.

Put another way- let’s say we were certain either UoS or WCD was scum. Lynching either of them would be 50% chance of hitting scum. Lynching ashersky would still be a 100% chance of lynching ashersky.

Sorry but I’m going with the option that definitely lets us live another day. The fact that I think ash might be scum is just a bonus.

Sounds an awful lot like you already know I’ll flip town.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: ashersky on February 11, 2019, 08:28:28 am
No lynch is another option today. See who scum kills off, then lynch me, then true 3v2 lylo.

If we don’t lynch, plurality does :(

We can actively vote for no lynch.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on February 11, 2019, 08:29:39 am
No lynch is another option today. See who scum kills off, then lynch me, then true 3v2 lylo.

If we don’t lynch, plurality does :(

We can actively vote for no lynch.

Oh, interesting. I didn’t know that was a thing. And that cancels out the plurality part?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: ashersky on February 11, 2019, 08:30:09 am
No lynch is another option today. See who scum kills off, then lynch me, then true 3v2 lylo.

If we don’t lynch, plurality does :(

We can actively vote for no lynch.

Oh, interesting. I didn’t know that was a thing. And that cancels out the plurality part?

It’s in the rules.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: faust on February 11, 2019, 08:32:31 am
Vote Count 4.5

UmbrageOfSnow (3): 2.71828....., WestCoastDidds, ashersky
jotheonah (1): UmbrageOfSnow
ashersky (2): Glooble, Awaclus

Not Voting (2): SpaceAnemone, jotheonah

With 8 alive, it takes 5 to lynch. Day 4 ends on February 13, 2019, 12:00:00 pm.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Glooble on February 11, 2019, 08:36:32 am
Weird question, but I promise I'm going somewhere with this-

Can everyone please list your three strongest townreads who are not yourself, ashersky, or me?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: ashersky on February 11, 2019, 08:36:46 am
unvote
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Glooble on February 11, 2019, 08:37:41 am
I might have a plan.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: ashersky on February 11, 2019, 08:38:47 am
Quicklynch any town plus a successful NK is a scum win.

That UoS sat so long at L-2 definitely speaks to UoS being scum or one scum on wagon.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Awaclus on February 11, 2019, 08:39:42 am
Weird question, but I promise I'm going somewhere with this-

Can everyone please list your three strongest townreads who are not yourself, ashersky, or me?

Space, UoS and joth.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: ashersky on February 11, 2019, 08:39:59 am
So I think one of {UoS, WCD, 2.7} is mosdef scum. 
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: ashersky on February 11, 2019, 08:41:07 am
Someone could unvote me for now, until we decide to end the day, given I’m at L1.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Awaclus on February 11, 2019, 08:42:30 am
Unvote
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Glooble on February 11, 2019, 08:43:31 am
unvote
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on February 11, 2019, 09:44:41 am
Weird question, but I promise I'm going somewhere with this-

Can everyone please list your three strongest townreads who are not yourself, ashersky, or me?

Joth, SA, e
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: jotheonah on February 11, 2019, 11:37:26 am
WCD, Awaclus ... that’s it. I guess if I had to name a third with the restrictions younrovided, Space.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Glooble on February 11, 2019, 11:53:56 am
My answers, btw, for the purpose of this exercise, are WCD, Joth, and Awaclus (as much as it pains me to say it.)
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 11, 2019, 12:10:51 pm
Why Space is Scum, Part 1 (through D2)

D1) Intro to the Game - the entirety of D1 Space did....well....basically nothing.  Some excitement about the flavor, some other random posts.  But really nothing.

This was the only "productive" thing that I found for the entire day:
Busy day.. read a little from work but I try not to post from there except at lunch. Maybe I should collect up reactions to stuff in one tidy post now rather than spamming the thread with possible fluff.

Re the Mail-mi conversation, I see a big difference between useful logistics (like working out who knows the flavour and preempting and last-minute complaints about deadline timings) and actual set-up stuff. My usual "thing" is to get very into probabilities and analysis of configurations, which I just can't do here. Am I just being too particular about my definition?

I agree that massclaims aren't going to get us far on D1. I probably like D3 for that sort of thing, or maybe D4 depending on what info we get about how this game works from the flips. Not sure it's worth joth jumping on Mail-mi for the comment, though we have to find reasons to vote somewhere. Robz and e's reaction-votes seem totally fair.

On the actual topic of flavour that Mail-mi was trying to steer towards, I think it's highly likely that faust has made the game unbreakable for flavour claims. I'm sure there was a discussion somewhere around here quite recently about how to assign flavour names. Was it during the Dirk Gently game? I'd have to go and look, but other people almost certainly have better memories than me.

I agree with hyper's stance on wagons being good. They're excellent for PPE later in the game if townie people don't always sit in one spot the whole time, because there are certain patterns of votes that scums just don't feel comfortable with, and there's always the risk that bussing scums trying not to be obvious about who their partners are end up taking it too far. Recently, late-game me has gotten frustrated with early-game me for not making enough use of votes in D1 to help me later on with my analysis. I do often find D1 just really hard to get my teeth into, though, so don't expect me to do too well at this one all at once :-P

They do feel the need to chime in on a pseudo-RVS vote by LaLight (spoilers, more sketchy LaLight interactions to follow):
oh, and also vote: hypercube for reading the setup

What do you mean by this? Is this just an early random vote?

In my experience scum is more inclined to read the setup thoroughly to not accidentally show they have more information than other people

Is that really the case? I think certain people as scum are more likely to have a grasp of the complexities of a setup because while they're not players who might usually pore over the setup text thinking about interactions, if they have scumbuddies then they might pick things up in the scum QT that they wouldn't be expected to come up with alone. While I don't know hyper that well, I'm not sure I'd put him into the group of people who I wouldn't expect to read and think about it on their own. (My prototypical person I'm thinking of for that group is PPS!).

But then they have a "pressure vote" on mcmc and not much else.

This is their reaction to the Ashersky vig shot:
On the optimality or otherwise of picking mcmc for the dayvig shot, I think my "case" on mcmc was that he wasn't playing very much, so given that we had to lynch someone, it was better to pick him than anyone who was active, if everyone felt equally likely to be scum. Several others including Ash said they thought mcmc was town because he wouldn't be so absent if he'd rolled scum, though personally I stayed on that wagon because scum mimicking these long player absences seems like a thing that will happen unless we make that behaviour less attractive.

Either way, as far as the rest of us know so far, Ash's shot wasn't compulsory for him. That means it wasn't a case of picking the least-bad of a set of options, so I agree with the people (e at least?) who're wondering why he didn't shoot a scumread instead of blaming the rest of us for picking mcmc. OTOH, he's explicitly hinting with "Plus what it did for my next shot" at #377 that the game might give him some boost for having used his shot and he apparently has another shot.. so if that appears not to come to pass, we could have actual evidence of scummy behaviour on his part.

And then the day ended with the Ashersky lynch.  If I were to describe SA's D1 in one word I would probably say "safe."  Very friendly, talking about flavor, no controversial opinions.  But no reads that stick out now given the flips that we have.  They did go out of their way to combat LL's vote, so there is that.

D2) The Game Begins in Earnest.

Space opens up with some discussion about Ashersky and myself.  There is also a hint of throwing shade on my result, but hey, that could just be trying to confirm it.
Ash being town seems kind of plausible, though I still don't like yesterday's choice of shot when one of the main people pushing that wagon -- me -- was specifically pushing it with the agenda that all other things being equal, mcmc was the least bad of the set, and we had to lynch someone. That is a world away from "town needs to lynch this person because they're scummy", which is how Ash is presenting his action.

@e, how confident are you that you can't have been redirected, and that your result can't come from a godfather or some mechanism similar to that?

Then we have this defense of LaLight which I find to be very interesting:

I would be happy to start an LL wagon. I also think we should be looking at Robz.

I think LL's thing about criticizing Joth for SK-hunting (which was mostly directed at Ash), then scumreading e because e's role was just the sort of thing that the apparent recruiter faction would have is almost too lazy to be scummy. It also misses that e and Ash are kind of linked by e's claimed PR result on Ash, which I don't think he'd feel the need to claim as scum. That is, unless e and Ash are on the same scum/recruiter faction.

LaLight's criticism of Joth and scumreading me is "too lazy to be scummy."  It just feels off.  Why does Space need to defend LaLight here?

I see what hyper have said. But it still rubs me the wrong way. Third-parties do not work with town. maybe faust overrode this somehow, but then why wouldn't one of those third-party guys told us so? Why wouldn't hyper then convert and claim basically the same thing, but staying alive? if they are not the enemy, that is. hyper would be alive, scum would need to kill one more person. But no, hyper declined and we lose a person, who in any case would help town, being either town or so-called helping third party

Reading back, this response, coming from LL (who prefers to play town, I'm pretty sure), seems actually quite consistent with his faction-change claim, in that it shows some frustration with faction changes. I do wonder whether he has some inkling of how town-aligned he'd end up if he takes the faction change, though.

Then this isn't really defending LaLight, per se, but it is definitely sympathetic to LaLight and deflecting arguments away from LaLight.  Again, just doesn't sit right with me.

And then the whole saga of "oh, I would've voted for LaLight, honest.  I just had this ultra secret motive in my ultra secret qt with WCD."  Which really, to be honest, looks like they are just manipulating WCD this whole time.  But that will be for D3/D4 I guess.
LL retconning an option into his claim is scummy.

Yes, I agree with this. I'll vote there to get a lynch through, but I'm not also trying to work out whether LL's claim still has more to tell us about the game setup.
Sure, mail-mi is a would-lynch. I wondered where most of the scrutiny on him from D1 went, though I was voting him for much of that time anyway.

Vote: mail-mi

My main would-lynch is still LL.

I wouldn't lynch Awaclus at this point without a scummy flip from LL of a type that indicates LL was on a team with other scums.

I think there is enough there to go ahead and change my vote, but I will continue on to D3/D4.

vote: SpaceAnemone

I will vote UoS or Space today unless absolutely necessary to go elsewhere, but it sounds like UoS is losing steam.  Lets change it up a bit.  Plus, UoS can allegedly "confirm" themself or something tonight.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 11, 2019, 12:11:45 pm
Weird question, but I promise I'm going somewhere with this-

Can everyone please list your three strongest townreads who are not yourself, ashersky, or me?

joth, Awaclus, and WCD
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on February 11, 2019, 12:16:06 pm
Weird question, but I promise I'm going somewhere with this-

Can everyone please list your three strongest townreads who are not yourself, ashersky, or me?

I don't really have strong townreads any more right now. I mean, WCD sounds townie, and so does e. But if I have to assume that you and Ash are also townie, then an e-WCD scumteam actually fits the various wagon constraints. So does UoS-Joth, though, and that's more of a scummy-seeming team.

For reference, here are the various wagon constraints I've pulled out:
At least one from {e,Glooble,UoS} -- from the hypercube wagon #307-#328
At least one from {WCD,Joth,Glooble} -- from the mcmc wagon D1 #328-#348
(There's not much useful PoE from D2 because of LL's scumslip)
At least one from {e,Glooble,joth} -- Space wagon #1095-#1168 (Ash joined part-way-through, but the constraint is the same).
At least one from {UoS,Joth,Awaclus,Ash,e} -- The UoS wagon D4, #1505-#1536
At least one from {UoS,e,Glooble,WCD} -- The UoS wagon D4, #1713-#1778
At least one from {UoS,e,WCD,Ash} -- The UoS wagon D4, #1792-#1822
Probably at least one from {joth,Glooble,Awaclus} because of the mail-mi wagon.

Note that I wouldn't be surprised if there aren't any scum in one of the "at least one from.." sets, but I don't expect many of them to be wrong.

PPE: massive case by e that I definitely don't have time to look through properly till after work.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Glooble on February 11, 2019, 12:24:47 pm

I don't really have strong townreads any more right now. I mean, WCD sounds townie, and so does e. But if I have to assume that you and Ash are also townie, then an e-WCD scumteam actually fits the various wagon constraints. So does UoS-Joth, though, and that's more of a scummy-seeming team.



Never said anything about assuming ash and I are town. I just have to exclude both of us for reasons which will become clear.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on February 11, 2019, 12:31:07 pm
To e’s long post....
It is definitely the case that I could have been manipulated by Space. I don’t think so, but that’s how manipulation works, right?

Since LL’s claim occupied most of D2 when we were talking, and she was scum reading him for it, but if she thought the writing was on the wall and needed to cut bait, doing so with me gave her considerable town cred.

DatSwan had her in his scum list and wasn’t terribly swayed by my read of her.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Glooble on February 11, 2019, 12:56:04 pm
So, upon thinking about my plan a little more, I've come to the conclusion that it probably sucks. Sorry to waste everyone's time.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: jotheonah on February 11, 2019, 01:02:42 pm
What if ... ash shoots himself? We get an informational flip now, we get rid of the hated problem, and we get back to odd numbers after today's lynch.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 11, 2019, 01:22:01 pm
There is other stuff from D3, but focusing on WCD interactions.

tl;dr - Space developed their scum read on WCD when it was convenient to them.  They first went through and joined the lynch of a popular mail-mi wagon on D3, and now on D4 when they need someone else to lynch, they turn to WCD, who they already had "trapped" in a jumbled claim.

Bolding with a larger font is mine for emphasis
I can't believe this is what we're spending our beginning of the day talking about.

vote: Awaclus

We can do better.

Vote: WestCoastDidds

On wagon D1, off wagon D2
Hmm.  Hard to argue with that.  A bit obvious maybe?  Then again WCD is new.

For the record, I strongly townread WCD.

Also worth noting:  Space was offwagon.

I wanted to join WCD (whom I trusted as townie) on the alternative mail-mi wagon because I couldn't feel the Swan wagon (which at that point was also at 2 votes), and I wanted to see what people did if there was an apparent going concern that wasn't LL. For me, I get WCD and myself as green-coloured names on a wagon on an unknown player. Whoever joins in 3rd/4th place is more likely not to be the same faction as mail-mi, so it gets information even while we're queueing up LL for the lynch.

I really really don't like the above.  At no point (again, that I can find) does Space vote for Lalight.  And yet says that LL is their main lynch candidate, while voting elsewhere.  What's that about?  In light of LL's flip I'd say that looks really scummy.  It gives you something to point to later and say "no but look I wanted LL lynched too" without ever actually helping the lynch.

I did want to lynch LL, but I also wanted to hunt for the other scums too with the time and resources left in D2 (before more weird night stuff and cult conversions came in to mess with my reads on people).

Wouldn't you say that it's interesting that the only other person who joined the wagon was LL herself, and even then, she eventually realised that it was too useful to town to let all that continue, and self-hammered rather than see her buddies tempted into exposing themselves on the mail-mi wagon?

I also note that you are now voting mail-mi, so you can't exactly accuse me of not having had grounds to be suspicious in the first place: mail-mi's behaviour hasn't been townie.

Space I'd like you to explain yourself a bit, I think.  Just, like: why the above vote, why didn't you ever vote Lalight, why the lack of votes in general, etc.

I mean, why vote LL at that point? Just to end the day sooner? I don't think it was particularly unreasonable for me to have assumed the day would still be going on at 9 or 10pm our time the day after I cast the mail-mi vote, even though it ended before noon (UK time). It just shows that more people agreed that LL was the correct lynch choice than could actually fit on the wagon, which is not that surprising when someone looks like they've probably scumslipped.

The LL wagon. I spent the majority of the second half of D2 saying that I thought LL was scum. But if I had voted for him when I was saying that, he’d have been at L-1, and I didn’t want to do that in the event that she was hated for something like that and then I’d be the one who ended the day early. So, I continued to argue for the LL lynch, and stated my hesitancy in voting until the days end was closer.

Not wanting to vote for someone in case they get lynched is closely related to what Haddock has taken exception to me over, which is not voting early enough for someone I said I thought was scummy.

As I watched people talk about LL, I wondered if it would be productive to see who he might jump to, given the chance. I chose Mail-mi because he hadn’t been around recently. At that point he hadn’t done anything really scummy, so I figured that if a real wagon formed on him, it would be illustrative. Space followed (she discusses this elsewhere) and then LL. For me, that jumps sealed his scumminess. Asher seems to have thought the same thing in in #898. I’d have voted for him when I woke up, but Asher, e, and then LLtook care of that when I was sleeping.

I was considering Glooble for a while before mail-mi, but on my own wagon analysis, he doesn't look too bad. From my PoV, with WCD as a townread, I wanted a wagon with a lot of green on it to make the black and red stand out.

Space, Joth, and Glooble seem the most town to me.
Asher and e are a question. I have them green for now, but it tricky, you know? It would have been a set of bold scum moves, but bold wouldn’t be terribly surprising.
Awa is frustrating folks. That seems NAI, but also easy to lynch.
Haddock is new to me and I like the way he shares his thinking. But I don’t have any of the experience others have playing with her, and I don’t have a good sense of her. Town leaning.
UoS- (hi! I haven’t seen you since my first game ever!) I don’t have a sense of yet
Mail-mi wasn’t super scummy to me when I voted for her, but has become so as a result of the claim and the posts that followed it. She’s at the top of my list, at present. 

This isn't chum-to-scum ordering in the middle, is it? I actually think Haddock is quite townie, and Awa, while he's too easy a mislynch, is also not guaranteed to be town just because he's a stick in the mud.

It's also important not to bind a read of Ash to a read of e. If Ash is scum, then e is not likely to be town because of the cop claim. If Ash is town and we're just considering that cop-result interaction in isolation, it can still go both ways for e.
My own scum-to-chum list is roughly:

mail-mi
Awaclus, e
Joth, Glooble, UoS (null)
Ashersky
Haddock
WCD
Space

I need to read more RobzOfSnow and see whether I can work out anything about them.

Here we have LaLight establishing WCD's towniness and stating how they used the qt with them to help accomplish wagon analysis to catch scum.

And now Space has turned to defense mode with the large wagon, while maintaining a strong town read on WCD.

As for claims, I'm at L-2, and as a few reasonable people have pointed out, we still have time before the deadline.

Let's go straight to the source of why I suspect I'm actually getting as much heat as I am. I know I was RBd (or something similar) on N1, because I tried targeting someone, and it wasn't successful. I expect that whoever blocked me saw that there was no NK, and drew an incorrect conclusion. This error will be obvious when I flip, but if another townie has a good explanation for the missing NK that they can give in-thread without revealing too much more than is already out there, then that could prevent a mislynch.

PPE 7 because I'm extremely unsure about what's useful to claim and what's too much and it's after 3am here!

Umbridge, get well soon!!

Okay, full claim from me first, then the actual interesting stuff in a following post.

I'm Fosyf Denche, the wealthy land-owner. I'm Radch-aligned, and I have an x-shot power called Political Understanding, which is a modified voyeur. I get the names of any actions that target my target player that night, but in return that player is rendered invisible to certain other investigative actions that I still don't have a categorical understanding of. I've checked that I can't self-target, which is important for later.

N1 I targeted e, and got no result. This is consistent with WCD's original assertion.

N2 I targeted Glooble, and the result was that there were no Glooble-targeting actions to report. (Paraphrasing this quite a bit, but I know it was distinct to the response I got on e).

I've tried to pick townie-to-null targets so as not to interfere with other townie investigations, but not the most super-towny, because observing the NK is of limited utility.

Space knows a couple of other details about my role, but I’m not sure if I should share or no. Space, what do you think?

Haha.. forgive me for getting super-paranoid from up here on the block, but yes, you did tell me some stuff, and it got me very worried because you appeared to contradict it with what you said about Swan! That's what I wanted to talk about in the QT stuff I was/am going to post.

However, all but the initial mystery of it would be explained by you re-targeting Swan for D3 after talking D2. I didn't consider that as an option enough because I think I'd have wanted to keep picking new targets for a bit longer first.

vote: WCD

Space, why do you think WCD is town?  Because they opened a qt with you?  I guess they shared their power which made you believe they are town?

I had a pretty strong townread on WCD already at the end of D1. My continued confidence that she's town is all reads-based, rather than hard-evidence-based, if that's what you're asking.

Her playstyle felt too confident and open to be disingenuous, but hesitant enough to show actual thought. If she'd been weaving a complicated web of lies, that would have constituted considerable risk-taking on her part, and she seemed too relaxed and able to make small-talk (especially in our QT).

We didn't exactly immediately just jump to trusting each other, but she was open about her role and quite ready to give me details even though they apparently started out contradicting my own expectation (which was that I'd been RBd, which I thought should have triggered her motion detector).

I've seen town!WCD get scumread previously for being chatty and "fluffy", and I've also been on the wrong end of that kind of town opinion before, so her overall behaviour felt very comfortably consistent with what my less experienced town self might have done, except I'd've been trying to throw in more data analysis tricks.

My question: Why did Space not get the contradiction in claims on D3?  This seems so out of character for Space.  She is one of the most careful, most precise people who play mafia here.  We have WCD and Space confirm that they talked extensively about WCD's role?  How did Space not figure out that WCD's actual role was one of a tracker, not another type of investigation?

Going back to that first result that WCD had.  WCD targets Space, gets nothing.  Because Space was JK'ed by Swan (which Space likely didn't know at the time, but figured it out).  Also, why was Swan NKed?  WCD - did you mention anything at all about targeting Swan for your upcoming qt to Space?

The only conclusion that I get is that Space had another case that they needed to push through first.  mail-mi.  And as a reminder - lynching 3rd parties is a great way for scum to get town cred:
I'm about to do an automated vote count, but before I do, I should actually get my vote down:

Vote: Mail-mi

The Mail-mi factors I'm considering:
1. LL voted Mail-mi briefly early on before moving off quickly, which is a great way to break the how-to-interact-with-partners thing.
2. They were both on the joth wagon on D1. LL had just been scum with Joth in M120, so I can see him being keen on not having a recent scumbuddy in the game.
3. They did not interact on any of the same wagons D2 (MM was mostly on Joth, and LL on e).
4. Mail-mi defended LL's claim, asking what motivation scum!LL would have had for claiming that.

And the major one:

5. LL did vote for Mail-mi near the very end of D2, when WCD and I were seeing what would happen there. Importantly, there were perfect scum bus conditions in effect, and yet nobody (other than LL) moved from LL to MM when that wagon was in place, which suggests a fryingpan-fire sort of situation to me, where MM isn't actually the right wagon to coax scum off onto, because he's scum too.

Bonus fact: Mail-mi only put down one vote on D2, and it was on Joth. If people think I'm scummy for not having reached the point of voting for LL before he hammered himself, I feel that in order to be consistent, they should think that Mail-mi is even more scummy: he was clearly around online at the correct sort of time (unlike me), actively defending LL (unlike me), and not voting LL.

Look at all the "interaction with LL" in this case.  Space is acutely aware of every single interaction mail-mi had with LaLight and was eager to pin it on them.  Because Space knew they weren't getting scum, they were lynching 3rd party.

vote: SA

I say we run them both up and see where it leads. I could do with a credible claim from SA at this point to bump me over to MM.

For context: SA is in-general scummy this game; Mail-mi has scummy bad claims / gameplay.

I'm accused of sounding scummy pretty much every game.

Also, is "run them both up" mean to imply equal pressure? Somehow you're putting me to unannounced L-1, while leaving Mail-mi on a mere L-3.

Lastly, UoS did ask just a handful of posts ago not to end the day so quickly, so I don't think you're helping him!

PPE: e

And then as they are getting pressure they push back at silly things like "unannounced L-1" (which I consider to be ridiculous.  There is like 0.0001% chance someone accidentally hammers.  Well, maybe I should increase those odds a bit since it has actually happened here on f.ds.  Let's say, with over 100 regular games and 50 RMMs, I don't know 150x4 lynches per game (average), 600 lynches, that (I will be generous) 5 of them were totally accidental.  So 0.008% chance someone hammers accidentally.

It is all smoke and mirrors.

Sorry, WCD, I think you were duped by Space.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 11, 2019, 01:24:23 pm
Also, why was Swan NKed?  WCD - did you mention anything at all about targeting Swan for your upcoming qt to Space?

In case it gets lost in my big post, I would like you to answer this WCD.  This may just be wild conjecture that is completely wrong, but maybe not?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on February 11, 2019, 01:50:51 pm
No, I did not say I was targeting swan. I asked her advice about who I should target, and she gave reads on everyone. They were all mostly mixed, but the best options seemed to be e, Joth, haddock, or Swan. I chose Swan because I knew him a little already and figured he’d be easy for me to talk to.

One thing I just shared with Joth is about the level of interaction.
64 messages with Space over a week.
56 with Swan over 2 days
155 so far with Joth over 5 days
So, it felt to me like we were interacting a lot, but in reality it wasn’t as much as would come later.

Besides LL, we talked a lot about the cult and recruiting. If I assume the LL stuff was because she was cutting bait where LL was concerned, there is far less to recommend her.

Then, when I look at the way I have been occupied with answering her questions about my role and the information I’ve provided, it feels calculated (as you note) to be convenient for her. She seems to be engaged, but it’s not real engagement because she knows I’m town and if folks conclude that she loses nothing and if they scum read me, she gains an advantage and another mislynch possibility.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: jotheonah on February 11, 2019, 01:56:59 pm
I am a chatterbox apparently
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Glooble on February 11, 2019, 01:58:33 pm
Ok, I'm ready to vote: Space then. What was holding me back was mostly my strong townread on WCD and her relative trust in Space. If she's starting to have doubts, I can get behind this.


Still nervous about the ash situation though.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on February 11, 2019, 01:59:09 pm
Also, why was Swan NKed?  WCD - did you mention anything at all about targeting Swan for your upcoming qt to Space?

In case it gets lost in my big post, I would like you to answer this WCD.  This may just be wild conjecture that is completely wrong, but maybe not?

More thoughts...her town reads from that list constitute 2 of the nightkills so far. Haddock and Swan.

Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Glooble on February 11, 2019, 01:59:47 pm
Should I share my probably terrible plan and let town decide if its awful? It would require me to full claim.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on February 11, 2019, 02:01:17 pm
I am a chatterbox apparently

Ha! There are way more entries from me than you...and everyone knows I am the chatterbox!  The biggest difference seems to be that you are asking as many questions as I am. In the QT with Space she had lots of questions about my role, but than I had more of the questions later in the day.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 11, 2019, 02:01:52 pm
Should I share my probably terrible plan and let town decide if its awful? It would require me to full claim.

I mean, if we are lylo the more information the better I guess.  It is up to you.  You sound like you want to
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on February 11, 2019, 02:03:05 pm

I am interested in the plan! But others would know better than me about the claiming stuff.

Also,  Vote: Space

Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Glooble on February 11, 2019, 02:08:35 pm
Ok, here goes. I am Translator Dlique, the triggered temporary treestumper. If I am lynched, anyone on my wagon loses their vote the next day, and town size for a lynch is calculated based on the people who have votes.

So I thought, if there were three people who basically everyone trusted to be town, we could have everyone else lynch me, thereby buying us a day for those three trusted townies to catch scum. I figured even if one of our townreads was wrong, the other two could still over-rule them.

Then I realized scum could just nightkill one of them. And it would still at that point, only take one vote to lynch ash. So we'd have to be damn sure of our reads.

But its an option and I wanted to put it out there.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: faust on February 11, 2019, 02:11:01 pm
Vote Count 4.6

jotheonah (1): UmbrageOfSnow
SpaceAnemone (3): 2.71828....., Glooble, WestCoastDidds

Not Voting (4): SpaceAnemone, jotheonah, ashersky, Awaclus

With 8 alive, it takes 5 to lynch. Day 4 ends on February 13, 2019, 12:00:00 pm.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: jotheonah on February 11, 2019, 02:25:24 pm
Ok, here goes. I am Translator Dlique, the triggered temporary treestumper. If I am lynched, anyone on my wagon loses their vote the next day, and town size for a lynch is calculated based on the people who have votes.

So I thought, if there were three people who basically everyone trusted to be town, we could have everyone else lynch me, thereby buying us a day for those three trusted townies to catch scum. I figured even if one of our townreads was wrong, the other two could still over-rule them.

Then I realized scum could just nightkill one of them. And it would still at that point, only take one vote to lynch ash. So we'd have to be damn sure of our reads.

But its an option and I wanted to put it out there.

It's a fun plan, but this Space case is looking good. Lynching scum today is definitely the best plan?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 11, 2019, 02:26:02 pm
Ok, here goes. I am Translator Dlique, the triggered temporary treestumper. If I am lynched, anyone on my wagon loses their vote the next day, and town size for a lynch is calculated based on the people who have votes.

So I thought, if there were three people who basically everyone trusted to be town, we could have everyone else lynch me, thereby buying us a day for those three trusted townies to catch scum. I figured even if one of our townreads was wrong, the other two could still over-rule them.

Then I realized scum could just nightkill one of them. And it would still at that point, only take one vote to lynch ash. So we'd have to be damn sure of our reads.

But its an option and I wanted to put it out there.

yeah, probably not going to work.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: jotheonah on February 11, 2019, 04:34:49 pm
I want to give space a chance to respond. But I’m willing to vote/hammer.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: ashersky on February 11, 2019, 04:49:37 pm
I think the remaining scum are SA and Awaclus.  The remaining possibilities for me would be joth and UoS.

I wanted to lay out my thinking while I had a moment:

Glooble -- as you may recall, I scum read her pretty much all game.  Based on her claim, however, I think she must be town.  For the claim to be fake, she had to also have a fake plan to go with it that got called off.  For the claim to be real from scum, she never would have claimed it, they would have orchestrated a full town wagon and used the treestumped town to win.  So I think it's a real town claim.

2.7 -- a correct cop result on yourself usually makes for some confirmation bias, but I'm focusing on the Governor claim.  Obviously I didn't die, and it wasn't my doing, so I believe it.  Best use of a scum governor is saving your scum partner at an opportune time, not saving a random townie on Day 1.

WCD -- I guess at some point, too many rookie mistakes/misunderstandings/learning moments are too many to be faked.  Scum neighborizer and their various versions have existed, but I think it's more likely WCD was duped by being too innocent and upfront with unknown QT partners.

That leaves SA, UoS, joth, Awaclus.

I settled on SA/Awa based on their interaction all game seeming to not really be interaction at all.  Plus, SA has been scummy, per everyone.  UoS is also scummy, and the doc claim is suspect, but she is probably lying/holding back there.  And it's a meta-read, but I have a hard time imagining Robz quitting a game as scum, ever.  And joth has just been playing very, very well, which is something she generally hasn't done as scum (no offense).

Plus, someone has to still be Anaander, right?  That's just a random note.

Anyway, very firm town reads based on claims/actions, not on my own reads, which is probably better.  I'm generally trusting scum does what is best for them, and those three haven't.  Scum reads based on interactions and reads, plus a little meta.  Not as good, but POE is strong.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: ashersky on February 11, 2019, 04:51:48 pm
With all that posted, I feel okay lynching SA, BUT...

This is basically LYLO if we lynch anyone but me.  If we lynch me, it's mostly LYLO tomorrow, minus two townies (as compared to today).

If SA is the lynch tomorrow anyway, I guess we just lynch her today and go with it.  But if there's any thought that reducing the pool before pulling the trigger is good for town, it is better to lynch me now.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: jotheonah on February 11, 2019, 04:52:50 pm
Can you shoot yourself?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: jotheonah on February 11, 2019, 04:53:05 pm
I’m thinking it’s Spce and Snow
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: jotheonah on February 11, 2019, 04:54:23 pm
There’s some irony in the meta around cop and doc claims, which I think tend to have the opposite affect to the intended one. I’m almost tempted to say claiming doc or cop is so cliche that scum aren’t doing it anymore.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: ashersky on February 11, 2019, 05:11:51 pm
I cannot shoot, sorry.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: UmbrageOfSnow on February 11, 2019, 05:16:07 pm
Glooble's plan and the top-3-townreads thing is a bad idea, it relies on the majority not only voting scum, but correctly calling the scumteam.

Ash, do you remain double-hated forever? i.e. if we correctly lynch scum etc. down to a 2v1 LYLO, does it take just 1 vote to lynch you?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: UmbrageOfSnow on February 11, 2019, 05:17:07 pm
I mean, that would be 0 if you were double-hated, but assuming you need at least 1 vote, right?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: jotheonah on February 11, 2019, 05:17:26 pm
Ash’s willingness to be policy lynched is very towny. Could be a scum ploy and if anyone had the guts for it Ash would, but I’m inclined to say this is exactly what it looks like. And as I said before, I like the e lynch significantly less if Ash is town, for reasons ash articulated above. So yeah, down with the space lynch.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: UmbrageOfSnow on February 11, 2019, 05:26:38 pm
I think Ash is town too, but I think we should lynch Ash if she's going to be 1-vote lynchable at any point in the game.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: UmbrageOfSnow on February 11, 2019, 05:33:59 pm
I don't think anyone is suggesting this, but people were linking their alignments earlier: if Space flips scum there is basically no chance WCD is scum with her. LaLight is hyper-aware of her own meta, Space made a bunch of points about mail-mi/LL interaction, I think there is no way a Space/LaLight scumteam doesn't discuss LaLight interaction meta in the scum QT, but when I questioned WCD on that earlier, her entirely missing the point of what I was asking with regard to LL reads very genuine to me.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on February 11, 2019, 05:35:20 pm
I think e's case on me is a ridiculous stretch, that feels from here like a load of confirmation bias. Yes, I don't get strong reads on people in D1. When does that ever happen? At least i was townreading Hyper, unlike e. Apparently e is not scumreading my correct read on hyper because I happened to quote a jokey RVS post by a flipped scum. That's the kind of interaction where the lack of it might be a scumtell for people who can't interact naturally with scumbuddies, but is in no way a good reason to scumread a townie who doesn't know which people they shouldn't be including in fourth-level-quoted suspicious conversation.

The thing about me defending LL is a stretch, though it's true to say I was sympathetic to him. I was modding him in Czech mafia, and I knew he didn't like being scum, so I'd hoped he was town here. As for his actual scumslips, WCD can confirm that I was onto it even before most of the thread, because of his use of the word "bugged".

Before anyone does any more voting, can I have an hour to post the stuff I've been working through this evening? I'm currently in the middle of a chat with a friend that's delaying me a bit...

PPE 6
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on February 11, 2019, 05:37:59 pm
I don't think anyone is suggesting this, but people were linking their alignments earlier: if Space flips scum there is basically no chance WCD is scum with her. LaLight is hyper-aware of her own meta, Space made a bunch of points about mail-mi/LL interaction, I think there is no way a Space/LaLight scumteam doesn't discuss LaLight interaction meta in the scum QT, but when I questioned WCD on that earlier, her entirely missing the point of what I was asking with regard to LL reads very genuine to me.

I actually don't follow the end of the sentence there. I mean, I agree that if I'd been scum with LL we probable would have talked about alignments, but I don't follow where the WCD part comes in.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: UmbrageOfSnow on February 11, 2019, 05:42:53 pm
WCD looked at LaLight posts earlier when I'd said we should take some time to reread them, but she totally glossed over the interaction stuff, then I pressed her on Adventure Time Mafia (which I'd read during the Czech neverending LYLO) and the way she didn't remember and then came back and talked about some interaction stuff read to me like someone genuinely considering this for the first time rather than making it up.

Not sure if that's any clearer, and too many tabs open to go quote hunting now, but that interaction about the LaLight reread doesn't come from a WCD/Space/LL scumteam ever.

I'm just throwing out hot takes as they occur to me. I'd rather we didn't end the day tonight, period, but we don't always get what we want apparently.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Glooble on February 11, 2019, 05:45:38 pm
unvote

I don’t really think it’s necessary, but I’d like to hear out UoS and Space.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: ashersky on February 11, 2019, 05:50:40 pm
I am forever double hated.

If we don’t lynch me today, and lynch correctly instead, I will take two to lynch tomorrow assuming six alive, with hopefully only one scum left.

That is the risk, and why I am suggesting caution today, and probably my own lynch first.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on February 11, 2019, 05:57:56 pm
Looking at the rest of e's case:

There is other stuff from D3, but focusing on WCD interactions.

tl;dr - Space developed their scum read on WCD when it was convenient to them.  They first went through and joined the lynch of a popular mail-mi wagon on D3, and now on D4 when they need someone else to lynch, they turn to WCD, who they already had "trapped" in a jumbled claim.

WCD made a jumbled claim that contradicted not only what she'd said in the private QT we'd had, but also what she'd said in-thread, and involved a story about faust changing her role description around mid-game. The number of accidental coincidences seems high.

It was quite inconvenient for me to start doubting my biggest townread, and I don't see the scum!me logic in doing so. If I hadn't picked up all those inconsistencies, it doesn't look like anyone else was going to notice, so I could just have left WCD as an obv!town player to NK off or sop up the claimed doc shot (unless you think UoS is scum with me, in which case maybe there isn't even a doctor to get in the way of that scenario). Casting lots of suspicion on WCD when there aren't any clear townreads isn't helping scum!Space's goal, which should be to drive one or two likely mislynch wagons and take out the most high-value towns that scum!Space could push, because having the extra PoE would be helpful with that. Not to mention that making WCD start to doubt my honesty even though I'm not playing inconsistently or posting anything that's not true isn't helping us either.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on February 11, 2019, 06:00:05 pm
Not sure if that's any clearer, and too many tabs open to go quote hunting now, but that interaction about the LaLight reread doesn't come from a WCD/Space/LL scumteam ever.

Sure, got it now, thanks. I already knew it's not that particular scum-team; I was kind of hoping you could either persuade people that even two of the three wouldn't be feasible somehow, because that would help restore trust in WCD from my perspective, which would still help me with PoE.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: jotheonah on February 11, 2019, 06:07:42 pm
Ok, here goes. I am Translator Dlique, the triggered temporary treestumper. If I am lynched, anyone on my wagon loses their vote the next day, and town size for a lynch is calculated based on the people who have votes.

So I thought, if there were three people who basically everyone trusted to be town, we could have everyone else lynch me, thereby buying us a day for those three trusted townies to catch scum. I figured even if one of our townreads was wrong, the other two could still over-rule them.

Then I realized scum could just nightkill one of them. And it would still at that point, only take one vote to lynch ash. So we'd have to be damn sure of our reads.

But its an option and I wanted to put it out there.

Did you bread crumb this earlier when someone suggested that the Presgar were the scum team and you said something like "I don't think the Presgar are the scum team"?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on February 11, 2019, 06:17:13 pm
Unvote until we decide what to do about Ashersky.

Double hated forever blows.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: UmbrageOfSnow on February 11, 2019, 06:19:02 pm
e's treatment of my claim is really bugging me, the desire for me to claim, then the immediate firm disbelief of it while missing a few things I'd really really expect town!e to pick up.

And if using a governor shot to save town locktowns you for the entire game then it would obviously be worth using as scum.

But then I don't understand why scum!e wouldn't have just killed town!Ash at some point.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: UmbrageOfSnow on February 11, 2019, 06:20:28 pm
Ash, what do you think of my earlier point about Joth explicitly giving Robz a null-read for the replace out before pushing me for the activity reasons?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: UmbrageOfSnow on February 11, 2019, 06:28:29 pm
Couple flaws with the theory:

1) ashersky's double hated wasn't known D1
2) I had to select ashersky in my qt during the day to receive protection/investigation

Your theory assumes that I (as scum) had special knowledge of ashersky's role (as town). That I knew ashersky was double hated on D1 assumes that we are of the same scum faction. And then if that is the case it is most profitable for town to lynch ashersky (as ashersky himself addressed).

So either we are both scum together and you should be voting Ash, or we are both town. (According to your theory, we could obviously be different factions, but you are pushing the theory assuming I had non-public information about someone else's role)

Why does e need to know Ash is double-hated? It's a plurality lynch and Ash looked like the most likely lynch at the end of D1. Hated is irrelevant.

As is making a big post about how impossible it is to know Ash was hated.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: UmbrageOfSnow on February 11, 2019, 06:29:58 pm
So either we are both scum together and you should be voting Ash, or we are both town. (According to your theory, we could obviously be different factions, but you are pushing the theory assuming I had non-public information about someone else's role)

Also this like screams scum!e-town!Ash to me.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on February 11, 2019, 06:30:35 pm
Here's the extended version of my wagon analysis thoughts. I'm aware that the more "gut" players are going to be disinterested, and that the logic side of things doesn't capture everything. However, it does capture people's voting actions independent of their rhetoric, which I like.

The hypercube wagon on D1 went to 5 people at #307 when mcmc joined. Hyper has flipped green, and Mail-mi has flipped orange, meaning that the red scums we need to kill off would almost certainly have been counting him as green at that point.
It was a four-person wagon from #256, and having been at 5 people from #307-#327, it dropped to 4 people when Glooble sheeped joth onto the mcmc wagon at #328, taking mcmc up to 5 instead.
The un-flipped names on that hypercube wagon are {e,Glooble,UoS} -- I'm not involved in this wagon at all, so even if you don't trust me, you should probably trust that at least one of those three is likely to be scum, though of course with this style of wagon-gazing, nothing is guaranteed.

The mcmc wagon being at 5 is also relevant, since, he and hyper have both flipped town. I still have WCD showing up green on my notes, so to me, the only two non-coloured-in people are joth and Glooble at the end. Just to be safe, let's say at least one scum in {WCD,Space,joth,Glooble}.

At #1095, my wagon was up to 4 votes in D2. For me, that means a likely scum in {e,Glooble,joth}, though others will want to add me to that list, so {Space,e,Glooble,joth}.

At #1505, e put UoS to 4 votes. It looks like everyone except Awaclus then posted between that point at joth unvoting at #1536. So either UoS is scum, or and both scum are probably on-wagon already. {joth,Awaclus,Ash,e}

The first 3-person UoS wagon of D4, from #1713-#1778, is another one I wasn't on. That gives us at least one scum in {UoS,e,Glooble,WCD}. Everyone posted in that time, and Ash even said he'd hammer if someone took it to L-1.

Finally, there's a second UoS three-person wagon from from #1792-#1822. That one gives us one scum in {UoS,e,WCD,Ash}. In that period of time, UoS himself is the only player who didn't post.

Constraints:
At least one scum in each of these five lists:
{e,Glooble,UoS}
{WCD,Space,joth,Glooble}
{Space,e,Glooble,joth}
{UoS,e,Glooble,WCD}
{UoS,e,WCD,Ash}
Then either scum!UoS or both scum in {joth,Awaclus,Ash,e}.

Every possible pairing, with the number of broken constraints:
Space-Ash   2
Space-Awaclus    3
Space-e   0
Space-Glooble   1
Space-joth   3
Space-UoS   0
Space-WCD   
Ash-Awaclus   5
Ash-e   1
Ash-Glooble   0
Ash-joth   2
Ash-UoS   2
Ash-WCD   2
Awaclus-e   1
Awaclus-Glooble   1
Awaclus-joth   3
Awaclus-UoS   2
Awaclus-WCD   2
e-Glooble   0
e-joth   0
e-UoS   1
e-WCD   0
Glooble-joth   1
Glooble-UoS   0
Glooble-WCD   0
joth-UoS   0
joth-WCD   1
UoS-WCD   1

Note that this isn't an independent count, because those constraints can't be said to be derived independently, nor should each constraint violation be equally weighted really, but it ought to be a reasonable first approximation.

Now sorting by number of violations, and filtering by the #1505 constraint:
Space-UoS   0
e-joth   0
Glooble-UoS   0
joth-UoS   0
Ash-e   1
Awaclus-e   1
e-UoS   1
UoS-WCD   1
Ash-joth   2
Ash-UoS   2
Awaclus-UoS   2
Awaclus-joth   3
Ash-Awaclus   5

Conclusions: joth and UoS should perhaps be my top picks, because of the three most plausible scumteams (the three zeros which don't include me), they're on two of the three possible teams each.

This does not address the various hatedness problems being talked about, but I'm offering it up as a framework for examining wagon interactions that might be pre-digested enough for use even after I've flipped.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: UmbrageOfSnow on February 11, 2019, 06:33:29 pm
Sorry to keep harping on this, but this sequence too, I just really don't like e's reaction to all of this.

Despite your scumminess here, I still think you are town.

Policy lynches are bad bad bad

We need to lynch scum. That is how town wins. Not by figuring out the least bad town lynch until we are at lylo
Please, stop voting for ashersky. It gets is nothing at all (except confirming that I am town)
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: UmbrageOfSnow on February 11, 2019, 06:39:05 pm
Lynching Ash is objectively the correct play here, it's the same thing as no-lynching in MYLO.

And I think it would be really tempting for scum to want to push for the win and get a mislynch in today and not have to fight through a long LYLO battle tomorrow.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: jotheonah on February 11, 2019, 06:39:44 pm
Funny. That same quote is a town tell for me. I don’t think scum!e is that brash, but it fits perfectly with town cop e who is trying to talk us out of lynching someone he KNOWS is town.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: UmbrageOfSnow on February 11, 2019, 06:45:48 pm
Funny. That same quote is a town tell for me. I don’t think scum!e is that brash, but it fits perfectly with town cop e who is trying to talk us out of lynching someone he KNOWS is town.

It has nothing to do with Ash being town and everything to do with Ash being double hated. And he's treating it as if it were the same thing as lynching a lurker. (Which I kept getting called, by the way.)

(And no, I don't think this is a strong attempt to talk people out of the Ash lynch, it's a protest against it without acknowledging the reasons and re-emphasizing e's towniness in people's minds when Ash flips.

cop-result!e already outed that result forever ago, Ash would certainly be locked-in as town, but there wouldn't be that need to jump in and protest a lynch that has nothing to do with scumreading Ash so hard I think.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: jotheonah on February 11, 2019, 06:51:51 pm
Man, e IS playing scummy here.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Awaclus on February 11, 2019, 06:56:02 pm
So either we are both scum together and you should be voting Ash, or we are both town. (According to your theory, we could obviously be different factions, but you are pushing the theory assuming I had non-public information about someone else's role)

Also this like screams scum!e-town!Ash to me.

That's what I was saying.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Awaclus on February 11, 2019, 06:59:34 pm
Even still, I do think that we should be lynching ash today, after all. I'd rather have a 4 vs 2 LyLo than a 6 vs 2, and we get one more night to use PRs before we have to find scum.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on February 11, 2019, 07:17:24 pm
How certain would you have to feel that someone was scum for them to be a better lynch than Ash? I'm just trying to work out how to interpret this sudden vibe of "let's lynch a person we don't think is scum".
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: UmbrageOfSnow on February 11, 2019, 07:27:54 pm
Space: I would lynch 90% conftown Ash 9 times out of 10 here, because I think it's the right play, but I think I've gotten impatient before and lynched people in MYLO when objectively I should have voted no lynch because I was impatient.

I'm not feeling impatient this game because I feel like I'm just getting into it though.

I would lynch my own cop guilty over Ash, or anyone over Ash if Faust announced he was an IC, but within the normal bounds of reads, I think we should always be lynching Ash.

And yeah, I'm townreading Ash pretty strongly.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Awaclus on February 11, 2019, 07:55:15 pm
How certain would you have to feel that someone was scum for them to be a better lynch than Ash? I'm just trying to work out how to interpret this sudden vibe of "let's lynch a person we don't think is scum".

90-93%.

In all seriousness, I don't really see the downside of lynching ash. I hesitated IRL-yesterday because of how weird it feels, but it's got to be correct.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on February 11, 2019, 07:58:27 pm
Are you guys factoring in that we might have a cult that increases the number of town deaths from a NK?

I feel like taking out scum ought to be our top priority, because everything else is not necessarily surviviable.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: UmbrageOfSnow on February 11, 2019, 08:00:21 pm
Yeah, I'm pretty much over worrying about e not being willing to gambit at this point:
yeah well, e could theoretically claim that if he really had the cop shot and copped ash, because if/when ash flips town, we will believe e, not so much if e will say "i copped him N1' afterwards. That is basically why I vote for e and not ash.
LaLight has this bad habit:


I would never ever in any state leave claimed masons alive if they are masons and I would persuade my team to kill them because "try to make everyone think masons are a scumteam" literally NEVER works. I am sure this is not making me more town in your eyes, just sayin'
(LaLight was scum who had left claimed masons alive all game.)

I didn't play with scum!Hydrad yet, but as town he lives till the end, so this might be true about being average
one more thing in favor of Hydrad being scum is that Newbies were both lynched and killed. I think at least one vet is a scum. I'd say it's chairs but
(LaLight is scum with Hydrad)

This is all confusing. My gut also tells me that here's exactly one person lying about PR. And if this is true, then scum team is {JReggie, Iguana, [lying PR]}.
I'd just propose lynching those two first. And in the process we can actually look at the PRs and their behavior.

vote: JReggie
(LaLight is scum with JReggie and gkrieg, who has just fakeclaimed Doctor, counterclaiming a real town doctor
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: UmbrageOfSnow on February 11, 2019, 08:00:48 pm
The horizontal rules separate things from different old games.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Awaclus on February 11, 2019, 08:05:49 pm
Are you guys factoring in that we might have a cult that increases the number of town deaths from a NK?

I wasn't, but I don't think that's particularly likely.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: UmbrageOfSnow on February 11, 2019, 08:12:38 pm
Are you guys factoring in that we might have a cult that increases the number of town deaths from a NK?

I feel like taking out scum ought to be our top priority, because everything else is not necessarily surviviable.

Having 2 cults that work that way seems pretty bastard to me. One was kind of rough, it ended up not hurting us but a uncertain recruitment that only hits every other night is most likely to give scum one extra NK or nothing, which is the same as what town gains from a doctored or blocked kill. You really need 2 to make a big difference.

But 2 recruiting cults basically guarantees that one of them recruits, and in the worst non-absurd case scum gets 2-3 extra NKs, along with there being a (1-shot?) vig in the game, which is hugely unfair. I don't think faust does that to us while 4 multi-player factions in a 14 player game.

I'd been just dismissing that possibility out of hand, and thinking about it, I stand by that.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: UmbrageOfSnow on February 11, 2019, 08:13:49 pm
Anyway, scum LaLight loves calling out exactly what her partners are doing as distancing.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on February 11, 2019, 08:35:00 pm
Anyway, scum LaLight loves calling out exactly what her partners are doing as distancing.

Are you suggesting a likely scum-pair (or even scum-singleton) on this basis?

I'm still more comfortable with the idea of going on the offensive and lynching scum today instead of gambling on them not being able to screw us over if we let them live another day.

Vote: joth. UoS is the other most-likely-scum as far as I can see, and at least he's actively working along scumhunting lines right now.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: jotheonah on February 11, 2019, 09:20:21 pm
Ouch. I’m V/LA. vote: space
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: faust on February 12, 2019, 12:46:09 am
Vote Count 4.7

jotheonah (2): UmbrageOfSnow, SpaceAnemone
SpaceAnemone (2): 2.71828....., jotheonah

Not Voting (4): ashersky, Awaclus, Glooble, WestCoastDidds

With 8 alive, it takes 5 to lynch. Day 4 ends on February 13, 2019, 12:00:00 pm.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Awaclus on February 12, 2019, 01:44:41 am
Vote Count 4.7

jotheonah (1): UmbrageOfSnow
SpaceAnemone (2): 2.71828....., jotheonah
jotheonah (1): SpaceAnemone

Not Voting (4): ashersky, Awaclus, Glooble, WestCoastDidds

With 8 alive, it takes 5 to lynch. Day 4 ends on February 13, 2019, 12:00:00 pm.

UoS and Space are both voting for joth?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 12, 2019, 01:45:20 am
My thoughts about lynching Ash:

I prefer the 6v2 over the 4v2 lylo. Sure, there are more arguments, but there is more town.

We go to 6v2, then 4v2, then oh wait, no lynch 3v2. And then who knows what happened.

If anything, I think we do a no lynch rather than lynching ashersky.

Then UoS allegedly confirms themself as town
We get other results
Etc.

You people who want an ashersky lynch, what do you think of no lynch v ashersky lynch?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Awaclus on February 12, 2019, 01:49:17 am
No lynch + successful NK means scum can still quicklynch ash D5.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: ashersky on February 12, 2019, 01:50:09 am
The problem at 4v2 no lynch to go to 3v2 is if joth is alive, he only takes two to lynch on the final day. So 4v2 is lylo, not mylo.  So if we lynch me today, remember that no lynch is not a viable option.

If we no lynch today, it’s 5v2 tomorrow. You must lynch me, then it’s 3v2 with joth as the issue again, so not okay.

It’s me or scum today, no other option.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: ashersky on February 12, 2019, 01:53:06 am
The discussion has to be now sure do you need to be to decide to make today lylo.

If night actions are actually useful, having less players + more info from flips is my preferred option were I to be one of you other townies.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: ashersky on February 12, 2019, 01:53:48 am
I’d like to be my own hammer, if possible.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 12, 2019, 01:58:18 am
The discussion has to be now sure do you need to be to decide to make today lylo.

If night actions are actually useful, having less players + more info from flips is my preferred option were I to be one of you other townies.

Based on the current claims list, we don't have a ton of useful night actions to be had (except if we actually have a doctor)

Which brings up potentially UoS blocking the kill leaving us still at 5v2 after a mislynch today.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: faust on February 12, 2019, 02:00:28 am
Vote Count 4.7

jotheonah (1): UmbrageOfSnow
SpaceAnemone (2): 2.71828....., jotheonah
jotheonah (1): SpaceAnemone

Not Voting (4): ashersky, Awaclus, Glooble, WestCoastDidds

With 8 alive, it takes 5 to lynch. Day 4 ends on February 13, 2019, 12:00:00 pm.

UoS and Space are both voting for joth?
Sorry, that should only be one wagon.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: jotheonah on February 12, 2019, 05:43:07 am
1. We don't know the nature of my hatedness. It could go away if the right person dies. And it's a little weird of ash to assume it will be around at LyLo.
2. Do we want to just go all the way and mass claim? By my reckoning the only people who haven't full claimed already are me, Space, and Awaclus.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: jotheonah on February 12, 2019, 05:43:29 am
And I guess ashersky.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: jotheonah on February 12, 2019, 06:05:49 am
Anyway, scum LaLight loves calling out exactly what her partners are doing as distancing.

Are you suggesting a likely scum-pair (or even scum-singleton) on this basis?

I'm still more comfortable with the idea of going on the offensive and lynching scum today instead of gambling on them not being able to screw us over if we let them live another day.

Vote: joth. UoS is the other most-likely-scum as far as I can see, and at least he's actively working along scumhunting lines right now.

I'd like to draw attention to just how scummy this vote is at this juncture. Everyone else is involved in a productive logistical conversation about how town maximizes its chances of winning, and that conversation has moved into the realm of policy lynching as the best policy for town, to the point where Space, who was nearly at L-1, had two votes removed from them by Awaclus and Glooble. In the middle of that, after offering the flimsiest of justifications, Space drops a vote on me, a player who (A) is the only player with a vote on me, although you might forget because it was placed so long ago, (B) takes one less vote to lynch, and (C) is on an announced V/LA until deadline (even if, admittedly, I have been pretty active in spite of it).

This wouldn't be scummy from just anyone, but it flies in the face of Space's methodical meta to just ignore the conversation around policy lynching ash and drop the vote that literally has the highest chance in resulting in a quick non-ash lynch, which we have recently determined to be essentially an easy scum path to victory. We're also two days out from deadline, so there's a chance that if town isn't able to make up its mind I end up plurality lynched as the biggest wagon.

It's just really really scummy and kind of cements my read on Space, which is why I think we should lynch them today and take our chances. But I would also support the ash lynch.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Awaclus on February 12, 2019, 06:23:52 am
I would definitely want to lynch ash over Space today.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: ashersky on February 12, 2019, 07:17:22 am
1. We don't know the nature of my hatedness. It could go away if the right person dies. And it's a little weird of ash to assume it will be around at LyLo.
2. Do we want to just go all the way and mass claim? By my reckoning the only people who haven't full claimed already are me, Space, and Awaclus.

I think we need to assume it isn't going away for safety's sake.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on February 12, 2019, 10:17:03 am
Hey there-

Today is a busy work day, so I’m not sure how much bandwidth I’ll have until the evening. There is a mind-numbing faculty meeting during lunch, so maybe I can catch up then but maybe not.

I do not like the Space vote on Joth. If seems out of sync with her not voting for anyone all day, the unvotes for her that happened just prior to her posts, and then in the middle of the discussion about Ash’s lynch or no, to drop a vote on someone we know to be hated. I’m going to leave this here until we decide about Ash vote: Space

I don’t see any downside to mass claiming at this point, but I’ll let the more strategic thinkers take the lead there. Y’all already know what I do.

Finally, I agree with the Town!Ash vibe, but I see that the double-hatedness can duck us over later. If that’s the best call, I’m down. My preference there is to defer to Ash’s judgement but how certain he thinks he is that we’ve found scumveksewhere (Space?).
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Awaclus on February 12, 2019, 11:14:47 am
I see a downside to mass claiming, which is that we don't want scum to know what our roles are.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: UmbrageOfSnow on February 12, 2019, 12:57:55 pm
Mass claiming is terrible if we're going to lynch Ash (which we should do).

If we're going to roll the dice it makes sense, but otherwise, ehhhhhhhhhh, we're not going to buy LYLO cop result claims or whatever but plenty of roles would have more utility in getting another night and it's weird to suggest you know that unclaimed roles will be useless. The reason for mass claiming pre-LYLO is for things like scum not wanting to counterclaim town PRs because if one is mislynched you know it's the other, which isn't a factor here. We shouldn't just lol-yolo-claim, although at least it would be consistent with our overall play so far this game.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on February 12, 2019, 01:14:53 pm
Good args. I see good reasons to wait in the claims if we’re lynching Ash.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: jotheonah on February 12, 2019, 02:54:01 pm
Yeah, I guess if we're doing the ash thing we shouldn't. I sort of want to lynch Space though. I'm that confident.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on February 12, 2019, 02:56:07 pm
I'd like to draw attention to just how scummy this vote is at this juncture. Everyone else is involved in a productive logistical conversation about how town maximizes its chances of winning, and that conversation has moved into the realm of policy lynching as the best policy for town, to the point where Space, who was nearly at L-1, had two votes removed from them by Awaclus and Glooble.
I think I've made it clear that I disagree that policy lynching is the best option when we should be lynching scum outright. If there's a second cult out there, or someone with a vigging power, it destroys the delicate balance we might be able to get form lynching Ash, whereas killing scum puts us into a safe place for another day, and is the only way I can see of doing that.

In the middle of that, after offering the flimsiest of justifications, Space drops a vote on me
It was 8.35pm forum time, which is a point where most of the US side of the pond are still awake and active on the forum, so hardly the middle of the night. It was very late for me personally, but I'm a night owl who's busy with work during the day.

a player who (A) is the only player with a vote on me, although you might forget because it was placed so long ago
At the point I placed my vote, e had a vote on me, so you're technically wrong. Also, I have an automatic vote counter, so I didn't forget anything.

(B) takes one less vote to lynch
I factored that in, too. As I've already posted my justification for in-thread, I think that one of you and UoS has to be scum. You were the one I could take to L-2, so I went with it.

drop the vote that literally has the highest chance in resulting in a quick non-ash lynch, which we have recently determined to be essentially an easy scum path to victory.
It's true I deliberately left you at L-2 overnight (UK time) all day, and have been too busy with work to log into the forum till now (which is almost 8pm for me). But that should have given plenty of time for any two-person scum-team not including you and UoS to coordinate. So now I'm even more confident that any scum-team has to include one or both of you. Anyone else can be confident of the same thing but with me in the mix.

We're also two days out from deadline, so there's a chance that if town isn't able to make up its mind I end up plurality lynched as the biggest wagon.
This is kind of backwards. Yes, we've got like a third of the day left to go, so obviously I'll move my vote before deadline if I think it's the best way to lynch scum.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: UmbrageOfSnow on February 12, 2019, 02:57:52 pm
Regarding Space's big logic-problem-solving post, it wasn't clear to me that Ash was still double-hated, I'd been thinking that was a Day 1 only thing, WCD also said it wasn't clear to her, and I think it's not a stretch to assume it wasn't clear to other people.

Awaclus acted as if she'd been assuming it was that way, as did Glooble? but I don't think we can treat it like scum knew they were in LYLO-if-not-Ash territory at that point, and that's a pretty huge issue with the logic there.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: UmbrageOfSnow on February 12, 2019, 03:00:58 pm
Can we stop calling it "policy lynching?"

We are not discussing lynching Ash for lurking or lying or being generally Ashy, we are discussing lynching a double-hated player for strategy reasons.

It's not a policy lynch when you lynch a claimed Survivor, it's not a policy lynch when you lynch a claimed vengeful townie in a situation where you know they have a very high chance of hitting scum if you're wrong.

And "policy lynch" has a very negative connotation (for good reason in terms of reads-accuracy, although I do think we should probably policy lynch more but that's besides the point.)
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on February 12, 2019, 03:03:45 pm
By my reckoning the only people who haven't full claimed already are me, Space, and Awaclus.

All I've held back is the "x" on my x-shot -- everything else came out in D3, and you commented on it then, so I guess you just forgot.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on February 12, 2019, 03:04:51 pm
Can we stop calling it "policy lynching?"

We are not discussing lynching Ash for lurking or lying or being generally Ashy, we are discussing lynching a double-hated player for strategy reasons.

Sure, calling it a "strategy lynch" is fine, and I agree it's a more correct term. I still like lynching scum better, because strategically that's what actually wins us the game.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: UmbrageOfSnow on February 12, 2019, 03:06:13 pm
It combines with the double-hated thing Ash seems to have/have had on D1. Another odd thing is that Ash's hated wasn't broadcast in-thread at all, whereas Joth's is there for us all to know about.

It doesn't seem like Space was clear on this either. Did I miss a point where it Ash explained it between this point and the more clear explanation recently?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on February 12, 2019, 03:10:45 pm
Regarding Space's big logic-problem-solving post, it wasn't clear to me that Ash was still double-hated, I'd been thinking that was a Day 1 only thing, WCD also said it wasn't clear to her, and I think it's not a stretch to assume it wasn't clear to other people.

Awaclus acted as if she'd been assuming it was that way, as did Glooble? but I don't think we can treat it like scum knew they were in LYLO-if-not-Ash territory at that point, and that's a pretty huge issue with the logic there.

Um.. I fail to see how any assumptions about Ash's hatedness have any bearing on my wagon constraints or the way I applied them. Could you point to specifics in terms of the post numbers I quoted, the wagons I named or the scum-pairings you think look any more or less likely as a result, compared to what I laid out there?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: jotheonah on February 12, 2019, 03:19:28 pm
Can we stop calling it "policy lynching?"

We are not discussing lynching Ash for lurking or lying or being generally Ashy, we are discussing lynching a double-hated player for strategy reasons.

It's not a policy lynch when you lynch a claimed Survivor, it's not a policy lynch when you lynch a claimed vengeful townie in a situation where you know they have a very high chance of hitting scum if you're wrong.

And "policy lynch" has a very negative connotation (for good reason in terms of reads-accuracy, although I do think we should probably policy lynch more but that's besides the point.)

TIL. I've always used "policy lynch" to mean any lynch made for a reason other than thinking the lynchee is scum. But sure, "strategy lynch".
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: jotheonah on February 12, 2019, 03:19:50 pm
By my reckoning the only people who haven't full claimed already are me, Space, and Awaclus.

All I've held back is the "x" on my x-shot -- everything else came out in D3, and you commented on it then, so I guess you just forgot.

I have zero memory of this. Rereading.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: jotheonah on February 12, 2019, 03:22:38 pm
Okay, full claim from me first, then the actual interesting stuff in a following post.

I'm Fosyf Denche, the wealthy land-owner. I'm Radch-aligned, and I have an x-shot power called Political Understanding, which is a modified voyeur. I get the names of any actions that target my target player that night, but in return that player is rendered invisible to certain other investigative actions that I still don't have a categorical understanding of. I've checked that I can't self-target, which is important for later.

N1 I targeted e, and got no result. This is consistent with WCD's original assertion.

N2 I targeted Glooble, and the result was that there were no Glooble-targeting actions to report. (Paraphrasing this quite a bit, but I know it was distinct to the response I got on e).

I've tried to pick townie-to-null targets so as not to interfere with other townie investigations, but not the most super-towny, because observing the NK is of limited utility.

That was a super not-memorable claim. But thank you for reminding me about it. Did you use your power last night?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on February 12, 2019, 03:24:49 pm
It combines with the double-hated thing Ash seems to have/have had on D1. Another odd thing is that Ash's hated wasn't broadcast in-thread at all, whereas Joth's is there for us all to know about.

It doesn't seem like Space was clear on this either. Did I miss a point where it Ash explained it between this point and the more clear explanation recently?

I mentioned hatedness at the end of my long "logic problem" post simply because I hadn't been engaging in the hatedness discussion that was also happening in-thread, as I'd gotten absorbed in my wagon analysis. I wanted to make it clear I was offering solutions to the problem of catching scum, not to the problem of what we should do about Ash being hated. But now you appear to be questioning my conclusions based on a lack of understanding of a fact that doesn't actually interact with my inferences at all.

For example, if I assert that at least one of you, me and joth must be scum because otherwise two scum could have come along and quick-hammered joth by now, I think you should agree that's valid. Either the wagon is on scum, in which case scum aren't going to quick-hammer, or one of the people already voting is scum (that would be you and me), in which case there aren't two to quick-hammer. If the scum-team were e and Glooble, they could have taken joth out by now. So from my point if view, I'm really confident that one of you and joth is part of the scum-team.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: UmbrageOfSnow on February 12, 2019, 03:27:24 pm
Space: Sorry, I definitely don't have time/energy to go through your post and pick out each individual thing that's impacted or not, especially as it's hard to keep straight in my head while not staring at it (because I'm not you, I don't think this is some fundamental issue with your formatting inherently, just a constraint of that sort of post in general.) But I think you're working from a false premise and that needs to be called out.

Scum would not have wanted to just scummily pile on a wagon to push a lynch through if it wasn't LYLO, and if they didn't know Ash was still double hated, as they may not have at the times of some of those, the fact that someone wasn't hammered after doesn't mean anything.

Of course they still could have if they had good reason to, I think some of those are probably still true anyway, particularly with regard to my own wagon since everyone was okay with lynching me at that point of the day. But I won't pick through your list for you, sorry.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: UmbrageOfSnow on February 12, 2019, 03:34:40 pm
It combines with the double-hated thing Ash seems to have/have had on D1. Another odd thing is that Ash's hated wasn't broadcast in-thread at all, whereas Joth's is there for us all to know about.

It doesn't seem like Space was clear on this either. Did I miss a point where it Ash explained it between this point and the more clear explanation recently?

I mentioned hatedness at the end of my long "logic problem" post simply because I hadn't been engaging in the hatedness discussion that was also happening in-thread, as I'd gotten absorbed in my wagon analysis. I wanted to make it clear I was offering solutions to the problem of catching scum, not to the problem of what we should do about Ash being hated. But now you appear to be questioning my conclusions based on a lack of understanding of a fact that doesn't actually interact with my inferences at all.

For example, if I assert that at least one of you, me and joth must be scum because otherwise two scum could have come along and quick-hammered joth by now, I think you should agree that's valid. Either the wagon is on scum, in which case scum aren't going to quick-hammer, or one of the people already voting is scum (that would be you and me), in which case there aren't two to quick-hammer. If the scum-team were e and Glooble, they could have taken joth out by now. So from my point if view, I'm really confident that one of you and joth is part of the scum-team.

The hatedness does have a bearing on the logic, and the quote of yours from Day 2 is just me going back and searching for "hated" to see if you'd previously said something one way or another. It establishes that you weren't confident that Ash was still hated either (neither was I or WCD), which is the point I was trying to make. It raises an eyebrow for me because you seem to be operating under the assumption that the scumteam did know Ash was still hated for all the wagons you were talking about there.

I get what you're saying, but hatedness does matter a lot. If Ash weren't going to be hated tomorrow, people not jumping in to hammer you/Joth wouldn't be relevant, right? Because this wouldn't be LYLO.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on February 12, 2019, 03:37:37 pm
I think you're working from a false premise and that needs to be called out.

You are incorrect about Ash's hatedness being a premise that I'm using to derive any of my results. Does that help?

Scum would not have wanted to just scummily pile on a wagon to push a lynch through if it wasn't LYLO, and if they didn't know Ash was still double hated, as they may not have at the times of some of those, the fact that someone wasn't hammered after doesn't mean anything.

Are you trying to argue that scum won't vote for townies they think they can mislynch, unless they think they're almost in LYLO? Do you think that most mislynches go through without a single scum being on-wagon?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: UmbrageOfSnow on February 12, 2019, 03:40:56 pm
Scum would not have wanted to just scummily pile on a wagon to push a lynch through if it wasn't LYLO, and if they didn't know Ash was still double hated, as they may not have at the times of some of those, the fact that someone wasn't hammered after doesn't mean anything.

Are you trying to argue that scum won't vote for townies they think they can mislynch, unless they think they're almost in LYLO? Do you think that most mislynches go through without a single scum being on-wagon?
You could be a bit less combative while strawmaning me. (Strawwomaning?)
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: UmbrageOfSnow on February 12, 2019, 03:43:01 pm
So your position is that if scum could vote to get a mislynch if they vote together that they will always do so? Because that sounds like an absurd strawman to me, but it also seems like the point you're actually pushing if Ash's hatedness doesn't play into it.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: UmbrageOfSnow on February 12, 2019, 03:46:03 pm
Space, who is your strongest townread?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: jotheonah on February 12, 2019, 03:50:44 pm
Yeah, no offense but I think it's highly unlikely scum are as bad at this game as your analysis seems to suggest.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on February 12, 2019, 03:59:52 pm
I get what you're saying, but hatedness does matter a lot. If Ash weren't going to be hated tomorrow, people not jumping in to hammer you/Joth wouldn't be relevant, right? Because this wouldn't be LYLO.

The issue of whether the two of us leaving joth at L-2 means one of the three of us is scum is not actually the subject of my "logic problem" post.

The "logic-problem" post pulls out big wagons from early in the game (including D1 before anyone knew anything about Ash being hated at all), and asserts that it is highly likely that scum will be somewhere on them, or will be the person the wagon formed on in the first place.

This works because it is rare for there to be a large wagon where all the people are townies voting for another townie, without a single scum in the mix. So if you collect up all such big wagons from across a game, you're going to get very few where the one-scum-in-n constraint is not met.

Now, maybe if hated!Ash is an alternative wagon to one of the ones I'd used to build a constraint from, it could make him more into a more attractive wagon for scum to join, thus making other wagons less attractive. I'd respect a counter-argument based around that. However, your tactic of outright declaring that you're not interested in taking the time to read through my working, while at the same time stating to the thread that you think my work has to be wrong is just bad.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: UmbrageOfSnow on February 12, 2019, 04:03:16 pm
You're presenting your constraints as a lot stronger than I think they are, and I'm busy and I have more productive things to spend what time I have to spend on this game on.

I'm pointing out what I believe to be a significant issue with your analysis that some one needs to point out because a lot of people are inclined to just nod along with these things, but that doesn't mean you can assign me 2 hours of game homework that I focus on instead of the more productive things I could be looking at.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on February 12, 2019, 04:04:45 pm
Yeah, no offense but I think it's highly unlikely scum are as bad at this game as your analysis seems to suggest.

Go tell that to the game where I caught faust-or-Haddock as a scumteam using exactly this technique :-) It's actually a very tricky tactic for scum to adapt to, because they've got to keep voting for someone, and even bussing doesn't hide from it, because at-least-one-in-n accounts for the possibility of scum being on a scum wagon.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: UmbrageOfSnow on February 12, 2019, 04:05:49 pm
You look at 6 wagons, 3 of them are from Day 4.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on February 12, 2019, 04:24:23 pm
You're presenting your constraints as a lot stronger than I think they are, and I'm busy and I have more productive things to spend what time I have to spend on this game on.

I'm pointing out what I believe to be a significant issue with your analysis that some one needs to point out because a lot of people are inclined to just nod along with these things, but that doesn't mean you can assign me 2 hours of game homework that I focus on instead of the more productive things I could be looking at.

I laid it all out so that you don't have to spend two hours recreating it from scratch. A couple of random spot-checks can reassure anyone that the wagons I'm singling out actually happened: scum!me could not get away with pulling out false evidence here and presenting it to the whole thread. So, let's assume that the wagons I pulled out all happened. Okay so far?

Next, I listed the constraints in a short form, and I kept myself in all the relevant groupings, just so I'm not accused of trying to make myself look any less likely to be scum.

Third, I went through every possible scum-pairing out of every player including me in the game, and I counted by hand (so I would appreciate it if anyone wants to take 5 minutes to check that!) how many of the constraints each possible pairing violated. I did not apply them as hard constraints, and I made it clear that I expect numbers other than only zero to indicate a likely scumteam. I tabulated the entire thing so that nobody else needed to repeat it, even for the really unlikely teams like, Ash-Awaclus, which met zero of my five constraints.

There could well be actual valid criticisms of my reasoning. I would like for more than one other person to respond to say they've looked at it and it seems valid, because that way more people could trust it and use it to catch scum when the PoE narrows later. I'm frustrated that the only person engaging is instead claiming to have this clever insight about how everything I'd done is wrong or worthless while insisting you're not going to read it properly.

If anyone wants assistance in coming up with a better dialog about it, the latter parts are based on a two-person scumteam assumption, and there are plenty of people who were arguing against that earlier. For another thing, there are places where the fact I did the calculations by hand as I posted mean I could have made simple counting or typing errors.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on February 12, 2019, 04:30:20 pm
Space, who is your strongest townread?

Probably Ash or Awaclus at this rate, since they looked less likely as a scum pairing with you or joth. If you want "townread" in the purely "gut" sense, then e is probably high up, but I'm bad at gut, and trust evidence more. WCD is in a juxtaposition of reading as really townie on the one hand, and just having too many suspicious inconsistencies about the things she says on the other.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: UmbrageOfSnow on February 12, 2019, 04:31:10 pm
I'm not accusing you of making up wagons, and I wasn't inclined to check those either, I was saying that reading the post, your constraints were presented way more forcefully than is justified.

AND you filter everything at the end by #1505, which is before Ash clarifies that he is hated forever. You give that wagon an enormous amount of weight in how you present your analysis.

And doing so removes nearly all the Space scumteams from the summary list at the end, which is what most people are going to look at if they don't take time to go through it carefully.

You then throw in a remark about not caring about hated, but that constraint isn't nearly worth that amount of weight if scum aren't assuming Ash is hated. When you wrote the post this had already come out, but not at the time of that wagon.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: UmbrageOfSnow on February 12, 2019, 04:38:06 pm
Yeah this is a weird game, I think Awaclus might be the most widely townread player after Ash.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Glooble on February 12, 2019, 04:44:16 pm
I'm leaning towards lynching Ash today. I'm not confident enough to go for a scum lynch.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: jotheonah on February 12, 2019, 05:11:03 pm
Yeah, no offense but I think it's highly unlikely scum are as bad at this game as your analysis seems to suggest.

Go tell that to the game where I caught faust-or-Haddock as a scumteam using exactly this technique :-) It's actually a very tricky tactic for scum to adapt to, because they've got to keep voting for someone, and even bussing doesn't hide from it, because at-least-one-in-n accounts for the possibility of scum being on a scum wagon.

I was actually referring to not your wagon analysis (which I find intriguing!) but your quickhammer me-and-UoS theory. Plenty of cautious scum would not go for the double quickhammer here.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on February 12, 2019, 06:01:34 pm
Deadline is tomorrow at noon. We should probably decide in the next however long.

I don’t feel confident enough in my scum reads at present. So, I think based on the argument that she becomes to great a liability by virtue of double-hated later on, Ashersky is the best choice.

Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on February 12, 2019, 06:20:51 pm
In other news, it's getting pretty likely that at least one of these four people is scum:

UmbrageOfSnow (3): 2.71828....., Glooble, WestCoastDidds

Otherwise scum would have quickhammered already.

Here's a quote from when Awaclus looks at one of the exact wagons form D4 that went to L-2. UoS forgot to tell him it's invalid because Ash is hated, and joth forgot to tell him that scum aren't that bad.

The main response that Awaclus got was support from e for the idea that UoS was the likely scum.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on February 12, 2019, 06:26:38 pm
Vote: UoS

The more I look at the way he's objecting to the scum-hunting, by arguing side-points about whether we call Ash a suggested policy-lynch or strategy lynch, and by trying to discredit my scum-hunting without engaging with it even just to pick from it the parts that might help his own cases, the more I think he's the better bet. Sorry I wasn't on board with that sooner.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: jotheonah on February 12, 2019, 06:31:57 pm
In other news, it's getting pretty likely that at least one of these four people is scum:

UmbrageOfSnow (3): 2.71828....., Glooble, WestCoastDidds

Otherwise scum would have quickhammered already.

Here's a quote from when Awaclus looks at one of the exact wagons form D4 that went to L-2. UoS forgot to tell him it's invalid because Ash is hated, and joth forgot to tell him that scum aren't that bad.

The main response that Awaclus got was support from e for the idea that UoS was the likely scum.

Awaclus was wrong in exactly the same way you are wrong. But I expect it from him.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on February 12, 2019, 07:09:04 pm
Vote: UoS

The more I look at the way he's objecting to the scum-hunting, by arguing side-points about whether we call Ash a suggested policy-lynch or strategy lynch, and by trying to discredit my scum-hunting without engaging with it even just to pick from it the parts that might help his own cases, the more I think he's the better bet. Sorry I wasn't on board with that sooner.

I can get behind this if we are not doing Ashersky. I think that the decision, for me, is UoS or Ash.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on February 12, 2019, 09:12:03 pm
But I think Ash is town
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: UmbrageOfSnow on February 12, 2019, 10:11:08 pm
Everyone thinks Ash is town, I think the only people who haven't made strong statements to that effect are the people unwilling to vote for her.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: UmbrageOfSnow on February 12, 2019, 10:19:39 pm
For how much the case against me seems to be based on my claim, I see a terrifying lack of thought about it.

I will lay this out blatantly because it seems like there's no chance of Space, if town, actually picking up what I've been trying to do.

If Space is town, Space could Voyuer the player with the most amount of town reads, Awaclus if we lynch Ash. Then I protect Awaclus and Space sees Awaclus being protected, thus verifying my claim. By trying to do it subtly I was hoping to also WIFOM scum into NKing Awaclus while I protect her, since I seem reasonably lynchable.

Even with claiming this plan, it's the same as if scum had been paying more attention than many people seem to be at this point: our top 2 lynch candidates, if we don't lynch Ash, seem to be me and Space. If both Space and I are town, either scum kill one of me or Space, thus taking an incorrect lynch off the table, or they have to kill one of the less widely-townread players instead of Awaclus. If Space is scum, tomorrow she wouldn't have announced seeing Awaclus get healed anyway but at least then it's down to me-or-Space and everyone can be confident there is one scum there.

I have seen zero effort from Space or e to pick up what I'm trying to do here, and I don't think e has said anything about my being able to confirm myself without scarequotes at all. I'm spelling it out, this is the best plan even so, but it would be better with some critical thinking, and that lack of critical thinking smells scummy as hell to me.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: UmbrageOfSnow on February 12, 2019, 10:21:38 pm
And I pointed out the policy lynch language issue because "policy lynch" is weasel words. Words have positive or negative connotations and while I don't think all the policy lynch language comes from scum, it is biased language against that plan, and I think in some cases deliberately biased language, and I think in some cases comes from scum who don't want us to do what the best plan actually is because they'd rather push for the win now.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: UmbrageOfSnow on February 12, 2019, 10:52:10 pm
If we lynch Space and she flips scum, come back to this:

Assume a Space + LL scumteam, who is the 3rd partner:


If Space is scum, I think e is very likely the partner. Although that’s not as sure the other way around.

I came out of rereading Space and Space interactions liking the Space wagon a million times more than when I started this afternoon. And I did try to find stuff that just really struck me as non-partner interaction with every possible partner, it wasn't there with e. We should still lynch Ash instead, but if we lynch Space and it's correct and I die, remember this.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: UmbrageOfSnow on February 12, 2019, 10:58:03 pm
Also I don't know how the hell I can be said to have not engaged with Space's scumhunting, I've said more about it than anyone else, I just didn't want to go back through and establish which wagons I thought were valid and which I didn't because I fundamentally disagree with the premise of at least the most major wagon she considered and wanted to focus on a couple other things. And I did end up talking specifics anyway, despite what she implied.

The specific request from earlier would not be the work of minutes, it's the work of redoing all of Space's work and looking at the context of the game around those points and seeing which are wagons I think scum would have hammered on, and then redrawing the conclusions, which I don't think is the most valuable use of my time.

You don't get to accuse me of not engaging for not being willing to go through and pick every nit.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: UmbrageOfSnow on February 12, 2019, 10:59:13 pm
This was never addressed
I'm not accusing you of making up wagons, and I wasn't inclined to check those either, I was saying that reading the post, your constraints were presented way more forcefully than is justified.

AND you filter everything at the end by #1505, which is before Ash clarifies that he is hated forever. You give that wagon an enormous amount of weight in how you present your analysis.

And doing so removes nearly all the Space scumteams from the summary list at the end, which is what most people are going to look at if they don't take time to go through it carefully.

You then throw in a remark about not caring about hated, but that constraint isn't nearly worth that amount of weight if scum aren't assuming Ash is hated. When you wrote the post this had already come out, but not at the time of that wagon.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: jotheonah on February 12, 2019, 11:12:25 pm
I’m basically sold on everything UoS just said.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: UmbrageOfSnow on February 12, 2019, 11:18:49 pm
EBWOP
If we lynch Space and she flips scum, come back to this:

  • Awaclus — Space does defend Awaclus when Awaclus is getting off LaLight on Day 2 in a pretty significant way, and then Space votes mail-mi. On the other hand, as Space herself pointed out, a Space + Awaclus scumteam would have had a few chances to hammer me and reasonable cover for doing so. At the start of the day it felt like absolutely everyone was okay with my lynch, so there would have been plenty of cover for this, but I think Space didn't realize it was LYLO at the time, and is probably a better scum player than she's making apparently anyone out to be.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 12, 2019, 11:44:51 pm
I am ready and willing to vote ashersky today for a lynch, would prefer to follow through and lynch space.

Also, I totally spent all that time building a case and started the space wagon because they are my partner....right.....
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Awaclus on February 12, 2019, 11:45:34 pm
I didn't realize it was LyLo until Glooble mentioned it.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: jotheonah on February 12, 2019, 11:46:34 pm
I am ready and willing to vote ashersky today for a lynch, would prefer to follow through and lynch space.

Also, I totally spent all that time building a case and started the space wagon because they are my partner....right.....

You are, in fact, a good enough player to pull off such a bus.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 12, 2019, 11:54:43 pm
As scum, I want to lynch ashersky here. It is a free lynch that a bunch of people (including ashersky) have been offering up. The whole "Ash stays double hated" could even be a ploy to get me and my partner to place two quick votes tomorrow if a mislynch does get pushed through.

Then game over.

This is another reason I think space has been dancing around the ashersky lynch. They know it is best for their scum faction, but don't want to get too excited about it. So they vote jotheonah, so they vote UoS. But I am sure they would vote ashersky to support town
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 12, 2019, 11:55:29 pm
I am ready and willing to vote ashersky today for a lynch, would prefer to follow through and lynch space.

Also, I totally spent all that time building a case and started the space wagon because they are my partner....right.....

You are, in fact, a good enough player to pull off such a bus.

And thanks. You are wrong here, but let's see a flip then let it play out, why don't we
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 12, 2019, 11:58:37 pm
If we lynch Space and she flips scum, come back to this:

Assume a Space + LL scumteam, who is the 3rd partner:
  • WestCoastDidds — Ruling out as outlined previously
  • ashersky — Aside from everyone's townread on Ash, Space calls out Ash’s plan for delaying the game really early in a way that I think would have been really easy for scum Space/LL/Ash to just let lie, it gets in the way of what Ash is doing but it's not the kind of distancing people usually think of, also Ash’s #1739, I don't think Ash has LaLight's bad habit, and the thought isn't oterwise out there, don't see scumAsh planting the thought that her partner might have done the NK, even though I wouldn't be surprised if she says she totally would do such a thing, I don't think the thought of planting that suspicion occurs, but mostly the first thing
  • jotheonah — When Joth started to lose her tunnel on me, Space argues in #1412 that “likely mislynch” doesn’t necessarily follow from odd one out, she argues with Joth’s argument here, which would be absolutely bizarre from a Joth/Space scumteam when one of them has been pushing me hard and the other was sort of vaguely on me.
  • Glooble — #1500 and Space reacting to it in the next post, this one isn’t as strong as the other stuff, but I’d still be really surprised if this was the team. I think it's a stronger non-partner interaction than it first looks like.

  • Awaclus — Space does defend Awaclus when Awaclus is getting off mail-mi on Day 2 in a pretty significant way, and then Space votes mail-mi. On the other hand, as Space herself pointed out, a Space + Awaclus scumteam would have had a few chances to hammer me and reasonable cover for doing so. At the start of the day it felt like absolutely everyone was okay with my lynch, so there would have been plenty of cover for this, but I think Space didn't realize it was LYLO at the time, and is probably a better scum player than she's making apparently anyone out to be.
  • 2.71828..... — The biggest not-partner thing I see about e and Space is the treatment of my wagon around the claim (they talk more about me than Awaclus though), but that actually fits with the scum-would-always-hammer-town-if-possible argument, since apparently scum!Space would instantly hammer without waiting for me to claim, according to Space… And then there’s these, which put this one on top even without the fact that I'm townreading Awaclus and scumreading e:
    I think LL's thing about criticizing Joth for SK-hunting (which was mostly directed at Ash), then scumreading e because e's role was just the sort of thing that the apparent recruiter faction would have is almost too lazy to be scummy. It also misses that e and Ash are kind of linked by e's claimed PR result on Ash, which I don't think he'd feel the need to claim as scum. That is, unless e and Ash are on the same scum/recruiter faction.
    If we flip e, it actually tells us virtually nothing about Ash.. so I know you said "sort of tied together", but I find that thinking that way is unhelpful. Better to analyse each player based on their own play.
    How does a hypothetical town flip on e not clear Ash again?

If Space is scum, I think e is very likely the partner. Although that’s not as sure the other way around.

I came out of rereading Space and Space interactions liking the Space wagon a million times more than when I started this afternoon. And I did try to find stuff that just really struck me as non-partner interaction with every possible partner, it wasn't there with e. We should still lynch Ash instead, but if we lynch Space and it's correct and I die, remember this.

Also, setting up tomorrow's lynch is scummy
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: UmbrageOfSnow on February 13, 2019, 12:08:54 am
How is setting up tomorrow's lynch scummy if it's conditional upon correctly lynching scum?

And I did miss the big case in my reread. That's my bad. I think I must have used an old ;all link I had in an open tab instead of the newer one by accident.  That does change that post further, I still find the e quotes I quoted scummy, but if I subtract out the confbias that probably puts Awaclus as the most likely partner for Space.

And I think I'd still rather lynch e than Space, but Ash before either and obviously any of them before myself, however stupid I feel at this moment.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: ashersky on February 13, 2019, 02:33:15 am
I appreciate UoS’s efforts there. Reminds me s lot of town UoS from back in the day.

I haven’t seen anything to show it’s better to gun for scum today.

vote: ash

Sorry I didn’t get scum on D1, and possibly played my role suboptimally. My general reads list I last posted is basically accurate, although UoS gained town points in the meantime.

Any scum kill will help someone make up their mind about tomorrow’s lynch, and a scum non-kill just keeps more town alive. I would push for full claims tomorrow, and especially the other Anaander.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: ashersky on February 13, 2019, 02:34:14 am
I wish having been lynched had reset my hated counter. Would be a lovely surprise if it did.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: Awaclus on February 13, 2019, 03:03:01 am
Vote: ash
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 13, 2019, 03:05:54 am
Vote: Ash
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: faust on February 13, 2019, 03:36:42 am
Day 4 Final Vote Count

jotheonah (1): UmbrageOfSnow
SpaceAnemone (2): jotheonah, WestCoastDidds
UmbrageOfSnow (1): SpaceAnemone
ashersky (3): ashersky, Awaclus, 2.71828.....

Not Voting (1): Glooble

With 8 alive, it took 5 to lynch.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Night 4)
Post by: faust on February 13, 2019, 03:41:46 am
"Captain Hetnys, you stand accused of using excessive force against unarmed citizens, and of dealing with an enemy of the Radch. How do you plead?"

"Guilty", said Captain Hetnys.


ashersky has been lynched! She was Captain Hetnys, the Radch-aligned Triggered (Hated/Macho) 1-shot Day Vigilante.

Thread locked!

Night 4 begins now and lasts until February 15, 2019, 04:00:00 am. Night actions are due within 47 hours.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: faust on February 15, 2019, 04:08:59 am
Fosyf Denche's dinner parties were a welcome constant in these tumultuous times. Despite the uproar caused on the planet by rioting field workers, things on the Station remained relatively calm, and Fosyf was pleased to see Administrator Celar and Eminence Ifian among the guests.

Fosyf was all the more displeased when some lowly officer from Celar's staff interrupted the party. Ever since there had been concerns about the trustworthiness of AIs, important messages were delivered by runner. A very archaic custom, in Fosyf's opinion. The officer knelt next to Celar and whispered something. It was occasions like these when Fosyf was pleased about her implants that let her access information from all the nanocameras and wiretaps installed in her house.


Glooble has been killed! She was Translator Dlique, the Radch-aligned Triggered (Nexus/Temporary Treestumper).

UmbrageOfSnow takes one vote less to lynch today.

Day 5 begins!


Vote Count 5.0

Not Voting (6): SpaceAnemone, jotheonah, Awaclus, 2.71828....., WestCoastDidds, UmbrageOfSnow

With 6 alive, it takes 4 to lynch. Day 5 ends on February 22, 2019, 04:00:00 am.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 15, 2019, 04:16:33 am
Ok, doctor, tell me why you are alive
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 15, 2019, 04:18:38 am
Also, mass claim should probably happen.

My proposed order:
UoS
Space
Awaclus
Joth
e
WCD
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 15, 2019, 04:19:09 am
Or maybe space first.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: Awaclus on February 15, 2019, 04:30:16 am
Ok, doctor, tell me why you are alive

Yeah, that's definitely an interesting choice. Why didn't you kill him?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 15, 2019, 05:11:00 am
Ok, doctor, tell me why you are alive

Yeah, that's definitely an interesting choice. Why didn't you kill him?

Because you didn't want to join me yesterday lynching them
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 15, 2019, 05:26:26 am
But UoS was allegedly going to confirm themself last night somehow, so let's see what that is all about.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on February 15, 2019, 07:10:44 am
I thought UoS said that his "confirming" plan involved protecting the most-townread player and getting me to voyeur them at the same time. Which is all kinds of flawed because it required him to announce in-thread who he's protecting and who I've got to target, for the benefit of any scums out there in the increasingly-unlikely event of UoS himself not being scum.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on February 15, 2019, 07:12:23 am
Bye, Glooble! It was nice to have played with you. I hope that this was less stressful for you so that you’ll keep playing!

Good morning, everyone. So UoS is hated today. Cool.  I can wait until my turn to share what I’ve learned. I agree with the order that e set.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on February 15, 2019, 07:24:41 am
In case e did want to change up the order to put me first, then I didn't target anyone last night, and I've claimed everything else already. I wanted to make sure I have a shot left in case there is any kind of proof thing we can do, though at the same time I doubt it's all that workable.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: Awaclus on February 15, 2019, 07:34:02 am
In case e did want to change up the order to put me first, then I didn't target anyone last night, and I've claimed everything else already.

You haven't claimed what happened N3.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: jotheonah on February 15, 2019, 08:34:43 am
I do think Umbrage surviving looks bad for Umbrage, but I also think since we discussed that yesterday we gave scum the opportunity to mindgame us. I can’t imagine they were actually afraid of Glooble’s power.

If they want to leave as many lynch candidates available as possible, it makes sense not to target Space, UoS, WCD, or e, since those were the most discussed lynched yesterday.

It’s possible that, in choosing between me, Glooble, and Awaclus they wanted to pick the player Umbrage was least likely to doctor? But then, why not pick me? Umbrage was scumreadinf and voting me all day, I think there’s a zero chance UoS would protect me.

I’m leaning toward Occam’s Razor here. Umbrage is alive because Umbrage is a member of the s I’m team.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: jotheonah on February 15, 2019, 08:38:53 am
That’s “the scum team”. Phone posting.

Also I’m back from V/LA so you can all look forward to a return to my regular levels of loquaciousness.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: Awaclus on February 15, 2019, 08:46:15 am
My proposed order:
UoS
Space
Awaclus
Joth
e
WCD

Conveniently you have yourself and your scum partner claiming last.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: jotheonah on February 15, 2019, 08:47:49 am
If UoS is town, the only way scum would want him alive so badly is if they felt they needed him available because one of them would be the lynch otherwise. And the other one would be next. I think if they had even one strongly town-read teammate, they would just be content to kill the doctor, bus Space, and position the surviving partner as well as possible for lylo. That’s what I do do anyway.

The scum team most likely to behave that way is e-Space, or maybe Space-WCD.

At this point I can’t fathom a scenario where Space and Snow are both town. I strongly believe one of them should be today’s lynch.

If UoS is scum, who is their most likely partner? Well, I think we have to look back at yesterday and catalogue UoS’s one day of interactions. That will be my next project.

PPE 1
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: jotheonah on February 15, 2019, 08:50:32 am
My proposed order:
UoS
Space
Awaclus
Joth
e
WCD

Conveniently you have yourself and your scum partner claiming last.

Not a huge deal since they’ve both already fullclaimed other than last nights actions? And since WCD has an investigative ability it makes sense for her to save her result and try to catch scum in a lie. I hope she hasn’t already shared it in any QTs.

I’m happy to go before Awaclus.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: jotheonah on February 15, 2019, 08:51:21 am
In retrospect, we should have had ashersky make an order before he died.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: jotheonah on February 15, 2019, 08:56:32 am
I think the remaining scum are SA and Awaclus.  The remaining possibilities for me would be joth and UoS.

I wanted to lay out my thinking while I had a moment:

Glooble -- as you may recall, I scum read her pretty much all game.  Based on her claim, however, I think she must be town.  For the claim to be fake, she had to also have a fake plan to go with it that got called off.  For the claim to be real from scum, she never would have claimed it, they would have orchestrated a full town wagon and used the treestumped town to win.  So I think it's a real town claim.

2.7 -- a correct cop result on yourself usually makes for some confirmation bias, but I'm focusing on the Governor claim.  Obviously I didn't die, and it wasn't my doing, so I believe it.  Best use of a scum governor is saving your scum partner at an opportune time, not saving a random townie on Day 1.

WCD -- I guess at some point, too many rookie mistakes/misunderstandings/learning moments are too many to be faked.  Scum neighborizer and their various versions have existed, but I think it's more likely WCD was duped by being too innocent and upfront with unknown QT partners.

That leaves SA, UoS, joth, Awaclus.

I settled on SA/Awa based on their interaction all game seeming to not really be interaction at all.  Plus, SA has been scummy, per everyone.  UoS is also scummy, and the doc claim is suspect, but she is probably lying/holding back there.  And it's a meta-read, but I have a hard time imagining Robz quitting a game as scum, ever.  And joth has just been playing very, very well, which is something she generally hasn't done as scum (no offense).

Plus, someone has to still be Anaander, right?  That's just a random note.

Anyway, very firm town reads based on claims/actions, not on my own reads, which is probably better.  I'm generally trusting scum does what is best for them, and those three haven't.  Scum reads based on interactions and reads, plus a little meta.  Not as good, but POE is strong.

Here is ash’s reads list. If we were to establish a claim order based on that it would be:

Space
Awaclus
Snow
Joth
WCD
e
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: Awaclus on February 15, 2019, 08:57:06 am
Not a huge deal since they’ve both already fullclaimed other than last nights actions? And since WCD has an investigative ability it makes sense for her to save her result and try to catch scum in a lie. I hope she hasn’t already shared it in any QTs.

I suppose that's true.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: Awaclus on February 15, 2019, 08:59:21 am
I’m happy to go before Awaclus.

You actually want to go before me? I'm next in the claiming order if we go by ash's reads.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: jotheonah on February 15, 2019, 09:04:21 am
I’m happy to go before Awaclus.

You actually want to go before me? I'm next in the claiming order if we go by ash's reads.

I don’t want to but I’m willing to. Ash’s reads seem like a reasonable way to do it fairly.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: jotheonah on February 15, 2019, 09:05:22 am
I don’t not want to. I basically just don’t care — I strongly towmread you at this point.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: Awaclus on February 15, 2019, 09:15:59 am
Okay. I'll go next then. I'm the town Anaander Mianaai. I roleblocked Space N3 and that's the only thing about my role that can be verified by anyone or is otherwise worth claiming. That's also the only time I used the roleblock.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on February 15, 2019, 10:04:05 am
Not a huge deal since they’ve both already fullclaimed other than last nights actions? And since WCD has an investigative ability it makes sense for her to save her result and try to catch scum in a lie. I hope she hasn’t already shared it in any QTs.

I’m am doing a good job of keeping my trapper shut. This, as you might imagine, is really hard for me.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on February 15, 2019, 10:11:37 am
Umbrage doesn’t usually come around until later in the day, so I assume we’re waiting for a bit before there is anything new to think about or move through the claims list.

Which means I need to write an exam. Ugh.

Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: jotheonah on February 15, 2019, 10:16:40 am
Okay. I'll go next then. I'm the town Anaander Mianaai. I roleblocked Space N3 and that's the only thing about my role that can be verified by anyone or is otherwise worth claiming. That's also the only time I used the roleblock.

So you’re not the one throwing around hated modifiers?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: Awaclus on February 15, 2019, 10:17:15 am
Okay. I'll go next then. I'm the town Anaander Mianaai. I roleblocked Space N3 and that's the only thing about my role that can be verified by anyone or is otherwise worth claiming. That's also the only time I used the roleblock.

So you’re not the one throwing around hated modifiers?

No.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: jotheonah on February 15, 2019, 10:17:56 am
Also, will you admit now that you hammered mail-mi to serve your personal wincon and not because it was necessary pro-town for the rest of us?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: Awaclus on February 15, 2019, 10:19:08 am
Also, will you admit now that you hammered mail-mi to serve your personal wincon and not because it was necessary pro-town for the rest of us?

I am town. I hammered mail-mi to serve the common wincon that all townies have.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 15, 2019, 10:31:56 am
Also, will you admit now that you hammered mail-mi to serve your personal wincon and not because it was necessary pro-town for the rest of us?

I am town. I hammered mail-mi to serve the common wincon that all townies have.

Let me interpret for Awaclus: yes.  I needed mail-mi to be out of the way so that I could win with town.

going back to everything mail-mi claimed, I believe them (mail-mi).  i.e. Awaclus wins with town as the last remaining alive Anaander Mianaai

All of Awaclus' play makes sense given the role.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: jotheonah on February 15, 2019, 10:38:37 am
Also, will you admit now that you hammered mail-mi to serve your personal wincon and not because it was necessary pro-town for the rest of us?

I am town. I hammered mail-mi to serve the common wincon that all townies have.

Let me interpret for Awaclus: yes.  I needed mail-mi to be out of the way so that I could win with town.

going back to everything mail-mi claimed, I believe them (mail-mi).  i.e. Awaclus wins with town as the last remaining alive Anaander Mianaai

All of Awaclus' play makes sense given the role.

I agree. But it bugs me that Awaclus won't admit his obvious extra wincon. Just seems like pure stubbornness at this point.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on February 15, 2019, 10:39:22 am
In case e did want to change up the order to put me first, then I didn't target anyone last night, and I've claimed everything else already.

You haven't claimed what happened N3.

I didn't take an action N3. Pretty sure I said so yesterday.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: jotheonah on February 15, 2019, 10:40:00 am
I'm skeptical about your role as-claimed though. The Aanander thing is basically a drawback. I would expect you to have better powers to compensate.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: Awaclus on February 15, 2019, 10:48:53 am
I'm skeptical about your role as-claimed though. The Aanander thing is basically a drawback. I would expect you to have better powers to compensate.

That's because I don't have the drawback.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: jotheonah on February 15, 2019, 11:01:22 am
I'm skeptical about your role as-claimed though. The Aanander thing is basically a drawback. I would expect you to have better powers to compensate.

That's because I don't have the drawback.

Even if you don't have the extra wincon, the fact that somebody else in the game wants you, specifically, dead is a drawback.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: Awaclus on February 15, 2019, 11:09:04 am
I'm skeptical about your role as-claimed though. The Aanander thing is basically a drawback. I would expect you to have better powers to compensate.

That's because I don't have the drawback.

Even if you don't have the extra wincon, the fact that somebody else in the game wants you, specifically, dead is a drawback.

It's a drawback for the entire town, not just me.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on February 15, 2019, 11:26:45 am
I assume that either Aanander needed to be the only one to win with town. Is that your sense, Joth?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: Awaclus on February 15, 2019, 11:29:26 am
I assume that either Aanander needed to be the only one to win with town. Is that your sense, Joth?

I don't know about joth's sense but that's not my win con.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on February 15, 2019, 11:30:28 am
I assume that either Aanander needed to be the only one to win with town. Is that your sense, Joth?

I don't know about joth's sense but that's not my win con.

What is your wincon?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: Awaclus on February 15, 2019, 11:36:40 am
I assume that either Aanander needed to be the only one to win with town. Is that your sense, Joth?

I don't know about joth's sense but that's not my win con.

What is your wincon?

You win when all threats to the Radch have been eliminated, and there is at least one Radch-aligned player left alive, or nothing can stop this from happening.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: jotheonah on February 15, 2019, 12:44:19 pm
Is it an x-shot roleblock or a full roleblock you’ve been choosing not to use?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: Awaclus on February 15, 2019, 12:48:42 pm
Is it an x-shot roleblock or a full roleblock you’ve been choosing not to use?

Why is this relevant to know?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: jotheonah on February 15, 2019, 01:01:25 pm
Is it an x-shot roleblock or a full roleblock you’ve been choosing not to use?

Why is this relevant to know?

Look, are we mass claiming or not? Part of the point is to determine whether claimed roles are reasonable in a balanced game. But we need more info about the roles’ power levels for that.

Also, knowing whether you chose not to use a power, and why, helps us determine if those actions are believable from you as town.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 15, 2019, 01:18:15 pm
Is it an x-shot roleblock or a full roleblock you’ve been choosing not to use?

Why is this relevant to know?

Look, are we mass claiming or not? Part of the point is to determine whether claimed roles are reasonable in a balanced game. But we need more info about the roles’ power levels for that.

Also, knowing whether you chose not to use a power, and why, helps us determine if those actions are believable from you as town.

<satire>Ah, but you forget, Awaclus is the only confirmed town among us, why should he trust is with the details? He is the ultimate authority on All Things Mafia. At least for this game.</satire>
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: Awaclus on February 15, 2019, 01:19:03 pm
Look, are we mass claiming or not? Part of the point is to determine whether claimed roles are reasonable in a balanced game. But we need more info about the roles’ power levels for that.

Also, knowing whether you chose not to use a power, and why, helps us determine if those actions are believable from you as town.

How were you planning to confirm that I'm telling the truth about my number of shots?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 15, 2019, 01:21:43 pm
Look, are we mass claiming or not? Part of the point is to determine whether claimed roles are reasonable in a balanced game. But we need more info about the roles’ power levels for that.

Also, knowing whether you chose not to use a power, and why, helps us determine if those actions are believable from you as town.

How were you planning to confirm that I'm telling the truth about my number of shots?

That's the point though, isn't it? Scum lies, town tells the truth. (Generally). You claim, we judge your claim based on your play and the claims merit, then we either lynch you or not.

It's almost as if we have to use social deduction to figure out who the bad guys are. Weird
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: Awaclus on February 15, 2019, 01:25:13 pm
That's the point though, isn't it? Scum lies, town tells the truth. (Generally). You claim, we judge your claim based on your play and the claims merit, then we either lynch you or not.

It's almost as if we have to use social deduction to figure out who the bad guys are. Weird

Well, then you should be judging my claim that I'm town based on the merit that I'm trying to win this game for town by not giving scum free info.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: jotheonah on February 15, 2019, 01:26:37 pm
Look, are we mass claiming or not? Part of the point is to determine whether claimed roles are reasonable in a balanced game. But we need more info about the roles’ power levels for that.

Also, knowing whether you chose not to use a power, and why, helps us determine if those actions are believable from you as town.

How were you planning to confirm that I'm telling the truth about my number of shots?

Remember when OuS claimed full doc and we were like "town had a full doc and a full JK, seems OP"? That's the sort of deduction I'm talking about.

Anyway, now that I know that we're going with a loose definition of mass claim, I'm ready to take my turn.

I am named after a character from an Ann Leckie book. I have at least one night action.

Woo! Mass claim!
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: UmbrageOfSnow on February 15, 2019, 01:29:55 pm
Ok, doctor, tell me why you are alive

If UoS is town, the only way scum would want him alive so badly is if they felt they needed him available because one of them would be the lynch otherwise.

I literally announced who I was going to doctor, not a single person in this game was really opposed to my lynch other than maybe Awaclus, and half of you wanted to lynch me over Ash (which was the equivalent of No Lynching in MYLO.)

Where is all this shock coming from that I'm alive? What scumteam in the universe kills me in this situation? I was hoping to get NKed back when I claimed but the play following my claim ensured that I was never going to be.

And how does e come out of the gate as soon as the day starts forgetting all this, casting suspicion on me like she knows my claim isn't going to be backed up and arrogantly setting the lynch order with herself so low and notably Space coming after me which is bizarre and dumb given what I was trying to do.

Vote: e
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: UmbrageOfSnow on February 15, 2019, 01:31:36 pm
But UoS was allegedly going to confirm themself last night somehow, so let's see what that is all about.

I literally spelled this out Yesterday

I thought UoS said that his "confirming" plan involved protecting the most-townread player and getting me to voyeur them at the same time. Which is all kinds of flawed because it required him to announce in-thread who he's protecting and who I've got to target, for the benefit of any scums out there in the increasingly-unlikely event of UoS himself not being scum.

And why have you adopted the scarequotes too now? It only involved announcing that in-thread because neither if you gave a moment's thought to what I was doing, and appear to have somehow forgotten overnight.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: Awaclus on February 15, 2019, 01:32:34 pm
Remember when OuS claimed full doc and we were like "town had a full doc and a full JK, seems OP"? That's the sort of deduction I'm talking about.

I do remember when some people were like "town had a full doc and a full JK, seems OP" but I don't remember when UoS claimed full doc. Instead, I remember when UoS refused to claim what kind of a doctor he was.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 15, 2019, 01:36:03 pm
Remember when OuS claimed full doc and we were like "town had a full doc and a full JK, seems OP"? That's the sort of deduction I'm talking about.

I do remember when some people were like "town had a full doc and a full JK, seems OP" but I don't remember when UoS claimed full doc. Instead, I remember when UoS refused to claim what kind of a doctor he was.

Actually she said she wasn't a full doc, but all the evidence points to the contrary.

I am interested in the particulars of UoS' role.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 15, 2019, 01:37:10 pm
I was a large part of the misinformation campaign to paint UoS as a full cop. Interestingly UoS has not challenged this herself.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: UmbrageOfSnow on February 15, 2019, 01:37:18 pm
AHEM
I'm not exactly a full doc, but the details are none of anyones business, you lynch me or scum NKs me and you can figure it out from my flip probably. I absolutely will not claim the details of that part of the role.

It is bizarre how little attention the best players in this game seem to have been paying to it. If e, joth, and Space are all town, we deserve to lose, and they can't all be scum.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: UmbrageOfSnow on February 15, 2019, 01:38:08 pm
I was a large part of the misinformation campaign to paint UoS as a full cop. Interestingly UoS has not challenged this herself.
What?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 15, 2019, 01:38:40 pm
I was a large part of the misinformation campaign to paint UoS as a full cop. Interestingly UoS has not challenged this herself.

Full doc, excuse me
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: UmbrageOfSnow on February 15, 2019, 01:39:18 pm
Anyway, I don't agree with e's claim order and I object to the concept of e setting the claim order. I'd accept WCD or Awaclus.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: UmbrageOfSnow on February 15, 2019, 01:40:08 pm
It may be better to claim things by parts, like for example who Space targeted last night before other claims.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 15, 2019, 01:40:25 pm
But seriously. You claim to have doctored someone every night.

Yet you aren't a full doc.

I would love an explanation. Or are you going Awaclusian on us?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 15, 2019, 01:41:05 pm
It may be better to claim things by parts, like for example who Space targeted last night before other claims.

So you track and doctor?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 15, 2019, 01:43:35 pm
In case e did want to change up the order to put me first, then I didn't target anyone last night, and I've claimed everything else already. I wanted to make sure I have a shot left in case there is any kind of proof thing we can do, though at the same time I doubt it's all that workable.

Also, space allegedly did not target anyone
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: Awaclus on February 15, 2019, 01:45:17 pm
Anyway, I don't agree with e's claim order and I object to the concept of e setting the claim order. I'd accept WCD or Awaclus.

We're going with ash's reads list for claim order, as suggested by joth.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: UmbrageOfSnow on February 15, 2019, 01:45:46 pm
When did Space claim not to have targeted anyone last night? She said N3.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: Awaclus on February 15, 2019, 01:46:51 pm
In case e did want to change up the order to put me first, then I didn't target anyone last night, and I've claimed everything else already. I wanted to make sure I have a shot left in case there is any kind of proof thing we can do, though at the same time I doubt it's all that workable.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 15, 2019, 01:46:54 pm
When did Space claim not to have targeted anyone last night? She said N3.

In the post I quoted. Didn't you go over this last night in your qt?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: UmbrageOfSnow on February 15, 2019, 01:47:03 pm
I'd prefer popcorn, but I like it better than the other order.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: UmbrageOfSnow on February 15, 2019, 01:48:08 pm
I somehow missed that, although now I have to say

SERIOUSLY?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: Awaclus on February 15, 2019, 01:48:42 pm
I'd prefer popcorn, but I like it better than the other order.

What?

Anyway, it's your turn.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 15, 2019, 01:50:03 pm
I somehow missed that, although now I have to say

SERIOUSLY?

It's ok that you missed it. Great distancing from your partner though.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: jotheonah on February 15, 2019, 01:57:12 pm
Apparently I missed a lot of things. e, why are you admitting to launching damaging disinformation campaigns? Did you forget to lie for a minute?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 15, 2019, 02:00:45 pm
Apparently I missed a lot of things. e, why are you admitting to launching damaging disinformation campaigns? Did you forget to lie for a minute?

1) not damaging
2) UoS is scum, so every time I say they are a full doctor I am definitely lying
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 15, 2019, 02:01:30 pm
But again, UoS. How are you not a full doc? You have claimed to doctor someone every night
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 15, 2019, 02:02:58 pm
I have provided plenty of posts to allow you to jump on and divert attention away from your patently false claim, and I sincerely apologise to town for that, but I would like you to answer to my question.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: UmbrageOfSnow on February 15, 2019, 02:03:45 pm
I'm a 2-shot doctor, Robz targeted e on N1, I lied about targeting Ash (although she was my top townread at the time), and I used the other shot on Awaclus last night.

I also used my 1-shot drugs on Glooble last night, I don't know what power they would have granted her.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: UmbrageOfSnow on February 15, 2019, 02:04:03 pm
I also can't handle the italics tag anymore apparently, twice in a row now.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: Awaclus on February 15, 2019, 02:05:52 pm
I also used my 1-shot drugs on Glooble last night, I don't know what power they would have granted her.

Well, this is interesting. Did anyone receive drugs?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: UmbrageOfSnow on February 15, 2019, 02:06:20 pm
Scumteam is e and Space or I'm going to have a brain aneurysm.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: UmbrageOfSnow on February 15, 2019, 02:09:17 pm
Could I get Joth/Space/e to please suggest what possible combinations of scum team would have actually shot me with the way we went to Night last Night?

Because it doesn't look like any thought has gone into this at all. And Space not targeting Awaclus in order to save a shot " in case there is any kind of proof thing we can do" is so anti-town it hurts my brain. WE WERE IN FACT DOING A KIND OF PROOF THING.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 15, 2019, 02:09:49 pm
Scumteam is e and Space or I'm going to have a brain aneurysm.

Can we agree to lynch space first and we can debate that other bit tomorrow (if I get there?)
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 15, 2019, 02:10:43 pm
Could I get Joth/Space/e to please suggest what possible combinations of scum team would have actually shot me with the way we went to Night last Night?

Because it doesn't look like any thought has gone into this at all. And Space not targeting Awaclus in order to save a shot " in case there is any kind of proof thing we can do" is so anti-town it hurts my brain. WE WERE IN FACT DOING A KIND OF PROOF THING.

I agree that space saving a shot is super duper scummy.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on February 15, 2019, 02:12:25 pm
What are one-shot drugs?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: UmbrageOfSnow on February 15, 2019, 02:12:28 pm
I'm out for a few hours.

Unvote

Team isn't Joth/Awaclus at least. Not like that was a likely thing anyway.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: UmbrageOfSnow on February 15, 2019, 02:14:35 pm
One shot power that gives the target "an additional power," I don't know what it is.

Basically I'm a JOAT: Doc/Doc/Inventor
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: Awaclus on February 15, 2019, 02:14:49 pm
Team isn't Joth/Awaclus at least. Not like that was a likely thing anyway.

Correct, but how do you know this?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 15, 2019, 02:17:11 pm
What are one-shot drugs?

It's like a NK, but cooler.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: Awaclus on February 15, 2019, 02:19:16 pm
Glooble has been killed! She was Translator Dlique, the Radch-aligned Triggered (Nexus/Temporary Treestumper).

Does anyone have any insights into how Glooble's Nexus might have worked? Sounds like someone should have received UoS's drugs.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 15, 2019, 02:21:52 pm
Glooble has been killed! She was Translator Dlique, the Radch-aligned Triggered (Nexus/Temporary Treestumper).

Does anyone have any insights into how Glooble's Nexus might have worked? Sounds like someone should have received UoS's drugs.

That is actually a very good point that I had not even thought of.

I did not receive any notification of any drugs of any sort
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on February 15, 2019, 02:32:26 pm
Glooble has been killed! She was Translator Dlique, the Radch-aligned Triggered (Nexus/Temporary Treestumper).

Does anyone have any insights into how Glooble's Nexus might have worked? Sounds like someone should have received UoS's drugs.

Awa, can you tell me what a nexus is?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: Awaclus on February 15, 2019, 02:35:29 pm
Glooble has been killed! She was Translator Dlique, the Radch-aligned Triggered (Nexus/Temporary Treestumper).

Does anyone have any insights into how Glooble's Nexus might have worked? Sounds like someone should have received UoS's drugs.

Awa, can you tell me what a nexus is?

Every role other than the NK who targets a Nexus gets redirected to a different random player. I don't know the specifics of how Glooble's role works since it's a Triggered (Nexus/Temporary Treestumper) instead of a regular Nexus.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: jotheonah on February 15, 2019, 02:59:07 pm
Look at the formatting:

Translator Dlique, the Radch-aligned Triggered (Nexus/Temporary Treestumper).

not

Translator Dlique, the Radch-aligned Triggered Nexus and Temporary Treestumper

I don't think Glooble had both those powers. I think Glooble got to choose one of those powers at the start of the game. It's some kind of or, not and.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 15, 2019, 04:23:15 pm
I am named after a character from an Ann Leckie book. I have at least one night action.

Woo! Mass claim!

As great as this claim is, I think you are up to actually claim.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 15, 2019, 04:28:03 pm
I don't think Glooble had both those powers. I think Glooble got to choose one of those powers at the start of the game. It's some kind of or, not and.

I like the theory, definitely won't lynch UoS simply because they claim to have targeted Glooble, Glooble died, no one got a redirected booster drug, therefore UoS is simply using the booster shot claim to cover any potential tracking, etc that may have occurred.

Might lynch just because I think they are scum, but not going to decide that until claiming is done and I have thought critically about it (as UoS recommended I do). I think I may still be leaning toward lynching space today and seeing what befalls is tomorrow. But who knows.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on February 15, 2019, 05:09:01 pm
Agree with much of this, e

After Joth goes, I think you should go, and then I’ll go last. A hybrid of your order and Ashers order, if it’s okay by you.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: jotheonah on February 15, 2019, 06:11:02 pm
Ok! I have already fullclaimed to WCD in the QT yesterday, FYI.

I am Lt. Tisarwat.

Every night I can an ivnestigate a player to see if they are an AI.

Every night I can also choose between a Redirector role and a role that protects people from manipulative and blocking actions. Both only work on AIs.

N1 i investigated ash. Ash was not an AI. I redirected mail-mi’s actions to LaLight.
N2 I investigated mail-mi and got “No Result”. I redirected Awaclus to mail-mi.
N3 I investigated Glooble. Again, no result. I redirected WCD to e.
N4 I investigated Space. No result. I used the protective ability on WCD, who I then knew to be an AI.

So yeah. At this point I think I maybe the enabler was enabling my investigative ability which is why it hasn’t worked since n1.

Rationale of actions: N1 and 2 I was redirecting scumreads to other scumreads in the hopes of getting them to shoot their partners. Night 3 I wanted to direct WCD’s QT to someone universally read as townie (at the time anyway). Last night I figured I might as well try to protect her a little.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: UmbrageOfSnow on February 15, 2019, 07:55:02 pm
What's the protective ability?

Also, so I'm not the only one who thought WCD would be the obvious NK then. Where'd your surprise at me being alive come from then?

Also also, was in Day 2 when Cube died? Weren't we pretty sure it was mail-mi's action that tried to recruit her?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: UmbrageOfSnow on February 15, 2019, 07:58:09 pm
What's the protective ability?

Okay, I guess I should shut up about other people's reading comprehension.

And so if Joth is town (and I'm leaning that way right now) that implies in addition to the ninja, scum should also have a roleblock.

But joth got an AI result on WCD, so joth wasn't blocked, and WCD implied she had some results to claim too.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: UmbrageOfSnow on February 15, 2019, 08:11:16 pm
I guess faust might write manipulative and blocking and not include blocking, but that means scum redirection on top of nexus and joth-redirection because that ability wouldn't just be in there accomplishing nothing.

Roleblocker seems more likely.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: jotheonah on February 15, 2019, 08:26:22 pm
What's the protective ability?

Okay, I guess I should shut up about other people's reading comprehension.

And so if Joth is town (and I'm leaning that way right now) that implies in addition to the ninja, scum should also have a roleblock.

But joth got an AI result on WCD, so joth wasn't blocked, and WCD implied she had some results to claim too.

I never investigated WCD. I knew she was an AI because she told me.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: UmbrageOfSnow on February 15, 2019, 08:55:44 pm
Oh, I was reading that as you getting some kind of feedback from using the protective ability, like being told your action failed if they weren't AIs and not seeing your action fail.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on February 15, 2019, 09:14:22 pm
I said this before when I was trying to clarify my role...Joth was blocked N3

I got no result from tracking Joth N3. So, he was blocked in some form since an action on me would have succeeded otherwise. New news: I’m an AI. I told Space, Swan, and Joth this when I chatted with them.

I chose Joth to investigate/chat in a qt with for the reasons I stated earlier, and also because he has asked someone if they were an AI and I wanted to know how he might be able to help an AI.

I’m going to wait to disclose my N4 chat, N4 results, D5 chat until e has claimed
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 16, 2019, 01:44:57 am
The only thing that I have to add is that I am the one throwing around the hated modifier.

I have it to joth N1 (to be hated D2) because I was mad they hammered ashersky. Then after that I had a decent town read in joth and figured they would not really be in danger of getting lunches so I gave it to them again, and again.

Switched it up to UoS because I think they are scum and also figured they would be a strong NK target so if they were killed then no one would be hated, if not, they are near the top of the list of people I want to lynch.

So to sum it all up (and add flavor), I am System Governor Giarod, the Radch-aligned Public Hated-iser 1-shot Copping Governor.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 16, 2019, 01:46:29 am
Sorry for all the typos, my phone's autocorrect hates me.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on February 16, 2019, 07:48:55 am
I am the Atheok Station, an AI, a neighborizer and limited tracker.

I targeted e on D4, so D4 I had a QT with e. I can confirm that she told me that she is the one who designates who is hated.

In N4, I tracked UoS. I get one result when there are multiple targets, randomly selected. The result was Glooble. We have a QT today and she told me right out of the gate that she had targeted Awaclus and Glooble, before she learned my role was limited to one result so I could only half confirm her.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: Awaclus on February 16, 2019, 08:29:27 am
So, by the end of the day, we learned absolutely nothing useful from the massclaim. Good job, e.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 16, 2019, 08:34:48 am
So, by the end of the day, we learned absolutely nothing useful from the massclaim. Good job, e.

You are quite welcome.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 16, 2019, 08:39:05 am
Vote: UoS

If they are town, scum can hammer and win.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: Awaclus on February 16, 2019, 08:41:47 am
Vote: UoS

If they are town, scum can hammer and win.

You mean if you're town and UoS is also town.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 16, 2019, 08:42:09 am
Vote: UoS

If they are town, scum can hammer and win.

You mean if you're town and UoS is also town.

Well, I know I am town
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 16, 2019, 08:42:37 am
I could also vote Space
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on February 16, 2019, 10:15:19 am
I'd rather vote: Space
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: Awaclus on February 16, 2019, 10:27:44 am
Just in case it wasn't obvious from my claim, Space didn't commit the kill N3. Which doesn't necessarily mean they're town, but they're that much less likely to be scum.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: jotheonah on February 16, 2019, 11:13:43 am
So snow targeted Glooble last night? Isn’t that pretty much a slam dunk?

Intent to hammer.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: Awaclus on February 16, 2019, 11:30:10 am
So snow targeted Glooble last night? Isn’t that pretty much a slam dunk?

Intent to hammer.

He's not at L-1 yet.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: Awaclus on February 16, 2019, 11:33:51 am
Man, you know what. Vote: UoS Now you can hammer him.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: jotheonah on February 16, 2019, 11:35:34 am
Oh I assumed that’s what this meant:

Vote: UoS

If they are town, scum can hammer and win.

But UoS was saying scum could double quickhammwr and win.

Seriously though, why would WCD not come out at the start of the day with an investigative result showing that UoS targeted Glooble?? That means IpS HAS to be scum. Because if they had targeted Glooble with a doc shot, Glooble would be alive.

I am the Atheok Station, an AI, a neighborizer and limited tracker.

I targeted e on D4, so D4 I had a QT with e. I can confirm that she told me that she is the one who designates who is hated.

In N4, I tracked UoS. I get one result when there are multiple targets, randomly selected. The result was Glooble. We have a QT today and she told me right out of the gate that she had targeted Awaclus and Glooble, before she learned my role was limited to one result so I could only half confirm her.

Here’s the other thing though. WCD is now adding another aspect to her role that she didn’t mention before, namely that she only sees one result of two people are tracked. I really don’t like that. Why did you not mention this to me in our QT or inthread?

And snow, how can you target two people? Did you target Glooble with your drug thing?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on February 16, 2019, 11:36:45 am
So, here is the thing I wonder about....if the scum team is e and Space, e making UoS hated is genius.

If we're wrong about UoS, we lose, right?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: jotheonah on February 16, 2019, 11:37:16 am
Man, you know what. Vote: UoS Now you can hammer him.

It’s the very beginning of the day. And this is potentially a game-ending vote. So I’m not going to hammer without more discussion. And I would like you two to unvote for a bit too.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: jotheonah on February 16, 2019, 11:38:08 am
The fact that WCD posted just now and didn’t hammer is very very good. Phew.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: jotheonah on February 16, 2019, 11:39:43 am
Wait a minute.

e, if you’re town, this isn’t LyLo. As long as you hit scum with your hated-iser we can still win D5.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: Awaclus on February 16, 2019, 11:40:13 am
So it's either Space/UoS or joth/UoS.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: jotheonah on February 16, 2019, 11:40:48 am
So it's either Space/UoS or joth/UoS.

Or Space/e
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: Awaclus on February 16, 2019, 11:45:05 am
So it's either Space/UoS or joth/UoS.

Or Space/e

So it's joth/UoS.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: jotheonah on February 16, 2019, 11:47:11 am
So it's either Space/UoS or joth/UoS.

Or Space/e

So it's joth/UoS.

Ok, if you can rule out Space/e please tell me how and I will hammer snow.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on February 16, 2019, 11:49:16 am
Joth, I just reread our QT and it looks to me like it didn't come up. When we started talking, I still didn't understand that what I did was tracking because faust made that correction after the Space discussion that revealed the error. My role was always limited to one result, but when I was telling you about it we were discussing the "no result" on you, not how may result I could get.  I didn't know it was relevant.

When I first got the Glooble result I was all excited and ready to hammer him. I only understood it wasn't ironclad when he said he had two targets. And e is the one who said "well, it doesn't make him super scummy" which resonates with the way I think that scum!e might slow roll this.

All that being said.....what are drugs?!?!  And why give them to Glooble? So, I am SUPER suspicious. But when I read back over the interactions since UoS became engaged, he seems town.  Space's justification for why she didn't use her shot last night though. More scummy than the UoS result. 

I am looking at you and Awaclus.  For me, we are town, and in this together.  2 of those other 3 are scum, so our odds of getting one are good. So, who is most likely?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: Awaclus on February 16, 2019, 11:51:18 am
So it's either Space/UoS or joth/UoS.

Or Space/e

So it's joth/UoS.

Ok, if you can rule out Space/e please tell me how and I will hammer snow.

Fine, Unvote
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: jotheonah on February 16, 2019, 11:57:00 am
Diidds, if you are town, you gotta stop being so scummy. It’s really throwing me.

Contrary to Awaclus’s assertions, we have atom of info from this mass claim. I would like to sit down and collate it into one big readable dossier so we can ingest it fully. I won’t have time to do that until tonight though.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: Awaclus on February 16, 2019, 12:01:06 pm
When I first got the Glooble result I was all excited and ready to hammer him. I only understood it wasn't ironclad when he said he had two targets.

How does him having two targets change things? You saw him target Glooble, and then Glooble died. The only thing that matters is whether he targeted Glooble with the NK or something else (specifically the drugs), and it looks like we have no way of knowing that.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 16, 2019, 12:05:32 pm
Wait a minute.

e, if you’re town, this isn’t LyLo. As long as you hit scum with your hated-iser we can still win D5.

Not quite.

Lynch town, NK me

-4 alive, 2 town, 2 scum- pick right, lynch scum, NK town.

Then it is 1v1 and scum wins since I couldn't hated-iser someone.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 16, 2019, 12:06:07 pm
So we could have one more day, but scum still win
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on February 16, 2019, 12:07:05 pm
Didds, if you are town, you gotta stop being so scummy. It’s really throwing me.

I'm trying!!!!!
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: jotheonah on February 16, 2019, 12:10:26 pm
So we could have one more day, but scum still win

Darn.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 16, 2019, 12:11:59 pm
Of course, no lynch is always an option here to get us to a classic 5 alive, 3v2
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 16, 2019, 12:13:08 pm
Of course, no lynch is always an option here to get us to a classic 5 alive, 3v2

But I don't want to do that
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: Awaclus on February 16, 2019, 12:13:58 pm
Of course, no lynch is always an option here to get us to a classic 5 alive, 3v2

But I don't want to do that

Why?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: jotheonah on February 16, 2019, 12:15:43 pm
E is my biggest misgiving right now. His claims are all consistent but damn if his powers as a whole aren’t very scummy. They both mess with the town’s weapon, the lynch.

Does scum e use his power on ash though? Not just on town, but on a town vig? That’s... a lot to believe.

I think I want to do a whole re-read and look at Snow and Space (and LaLight) And if I don’t find anything that makes that team look highly unlikely, then I’ll be in to lynch one of them. Again, I’m gonna need time to do the stuff.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: jotheonah on February 16, 2019, 12:16:43 pm
Of course, no lynch is always an option here to get us to a classic 5 alive, 3v2

There’s merit to this. Another chance to get investigative results.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 16, 2019, 12:16:57 pm
Of course, no lynch is always an option here to get us to a classic 5 alive, 3v2

But I don't want to do that

Why?

Because my history with mafia shows that my reads are usually far from perfect. I am extremely confident here, but I like lynches to be a team effort.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on February 16, 2019, 12:54:15 pm
Unvote

Time is good
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 16, 2019, 01:57:50 pm
Unvote

Time is good

Time is good but I don't think we need to run up to deadline. Really I don't see why we need to delay much at all
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: jotheonah on February 16, 2019, 02:15:10 pm
Eagerness to push a lynch through in MyLo is not a good look, IMO.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 16, 2019, 02:30:13 pm
Eagerness to push a lynch through in MyLo is not a good look, IMO.

I have never been one for appearance, just ask my wife.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 16, 2019, 02:33:21 pm
Eagerness to push a lynch through in MyLo is not a good look, IMO.

Also, if we go to actual lylo and I am around means that I own the lynch with my hated-iser.

You want that?  I mean, I am willing to accept that responsibility if you want to give it to me.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on February 16, 2019, 03:15:30 pm
I’ve got family stuff today but can spend some concentrated time on rereading tomorrow.

Happy weekend!
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: jotheonah on February 16, 2019, 03:32:45 pm
Eagerness to push a lynch through in MyLo is not a good look, IMO.

Also, if we go to actual lylo and I am around means that I own the lynch with my hated-iser.

You want that?  I mean, I am willing to accept that responsibility if you want to give it to me.

What’s the alternative? We don’t have the luxury of getting rid of you unless you’re scum.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 16, 2019, 03:46:59 pm
Eagerness to push a lynch through in MyLo is not a good look, IMO.

Also, if we go to actual lylo and I am around means that I own the lynch with my hated-iser.

You want that?  I mean, I am willing to accept that responsibility if you want to give it to me.

What’s the alternative? We don’t have the luxury of getting rid of you unless you’re scum.

The alternative is lynching today.  You give me all the power with the no lynch
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: jotheonah on February 16, 2019, 06:44:11 pm
Good point.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on February 16, 2019, 07:45:28 pm
Sorry I've been away so long.. busy Friday and Saturday. Will have more time to play tomorrow.

In the meantime:

@Awaclus: what colour do you flip? I'm kind of disappointed that the mass-claim didn't actually make you claim anything verifiable at all.

@UoS: your plan was never going to work after you posted it explicitly in-thread. Any scum RB could have picked it up, so a negative result could have meant you're scum, or could have meant you're a doc that scum decided to RB, which are the two most likely outcomes in the game, so it was a terrible experiment to waste two town PR shots on. I think your reactions are surprisingly unconcerned about the possibility that you could have been RBd and "framed" if I voyeured Awaclus and saw only some kind of killing action.

@WCD: does the "limited" part of your role refer specifically to only returning one target even if there were multiples?

Anyone with RB as part of their power: does your power block all actions taken by a player who may target multiple people, or only one at random or something?

@Joth: when you redirect someone, does neither the source nor the destination count as "targeting" for the purpose of night actions, or does one count as a target and one not?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on February 16, 2019, 08:15:31 pm
Space-

I think so. In the role it says limited tracking. In the description it says I receive one name of the person I’ve targered targeted.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: jotheonah on February 16, 2019, 09:43:28 pm
@Joth: when you redirect someone, does neither the source nor the destination count as "targeting" for the purpose of night actions, or does one count as a target and one not?

I target the source, I name the destination. So to redirect LaLight's action to mail-mi, I would say "Use Accesses, targeting LaLight and naming mail-mi" (Use Accesses being the name of the power)
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: Awaclus on February 17, 2019, 12:13:18 am
@Awaclus: what colour do you flip? I'm kind of disappointed that the mass-claim didn't actually make you claim anything verifiable at all.

Green.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: Awaclus on February 17, 2019, 12:15:39 am
Anyone with RB as part of their power: does your power block all actions taken by a player who may target multiple people, or only one at random or something?

All actions.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 17, 2019, 01:15:32 am
At this point we can confidently say that either UoS or I am scum.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: Awaclus on February 17, 2019, 01:25:23 am
I guess Space is the most likely partner either way.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 17, 2019, 01:37:56 am
Also, I don't think I am going to use my hated tonight.

1) we have a tracker still alive, they should get a result that really narrows the lynch pool for the 3v1 lylo (like, they can either catch scum or IC a player with their result)

2) if scum kill the tracker, then I am still alive and a mislynch tomorrow would allow me to apply hated to scum the final day allowing town to win in a 1v1 scenario
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 17, 2019, 01:54:19 am
Ok! I have already fullclaimed to WCD in the QT yesterday, FYI.

I am Lt. Tisarwat.

Every night I can an ivnestigate a player to see if they are an AI.

Every night I can also choose between a Redirector role and a role that protects people from manipulative and blocking actions. Both only work on AIs.

N1 i investigated ash. Ash was not an AI. I redirected mail-mi’s actions to LaLight.
N2 I investigated mail-mi and got “No Result”. I redirected Awaclus to mail-mi.
N3 I investigated Glooble. Again, no result. I redirected WCD to e.
N4 I investigated Space. No result. I used the protective ability on WCD, who I then knew to be an AI.

So yeah. At this point I think I maybe the enabler was enabling my investigative ability which is why it hasn’t worked since n1.

Rationale of actions: N1 and 2 I was redirecting scumreads to other scumreads in the hopes of getting them to shoot their partners. Night 3 I wanted to direct WCD’s QT to someone universally read as townie (at the time anyway). Last night I figured I might as well try to protect her a little.

Wait, time out. I didn't have a qt with WCD on D4, which is what should have happened if joth actually redirected WCD's actions to me on N3
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 17, 2019, 02:05:19 am
And joth, you had a qt with WCD on D4. How do you explain your redirection?

WCD, joth says he full claimed in the qt with you. What did he claim to do on N3 there?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 17, 2019, 02:24:55 am
Still think we should lynch UoS, but I am much more suspicious of joth now.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: faust on February 17, 2019, 02:36:55 am
Vote Count 5.1

UmbrageOfSnow (1): 2.71828.....

Not Voting (5): SpaceAnemone, jotheonah, UmbrageOfSnow, Awaclus, WestCoastDidds

With 6 alive, it takes 4 to lynch. Day 5 ends on February 22, 2019, 04:00:00 am.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: jotheonah on February 17, 2019, 08:25:09 am
i am assuming I was roleblocked that night, as I reported at the time. That would also mesh with my lack of an investigative result.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: jotheonah on February 17, 2019, 08:25:57 am
I guess Space is the most likely partner either way.

I’ve come to the same conclusion. I think we should lynch Space.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on February 17, 2019, 08:26:33 am
Everything Joth has said about his role jibes with what he told me on D4 in the QT and in the thread.

Joth thinks that he was blocked on N3 because I was not redirected on D4 (my QT was with Joth, not e). I confirmed with faust that if I had been redirected my qt would have been with the player to whom I had been redirected.

This was the first thing we talked about when my QT with him opened. He told me that he thought he had eaten a Roleblock that night and perhaps the N2 as well. I told him that my result on him was “no result” which suggests that he had indeed been blocked. Then he explained his powers and the actions he had taken, and we figured out that since I am an AI,  if he had been successful I’d have been talking to e.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on February 17, 2019, 08:29:54 am
I have been pretty sold on Space since I went back and reread my QT with her assuming she was scum and thinking through how that could have been true.

Here is my glitch, though.....it was e extensive set of posts about the scumminess of space that got me to do that. Which is awesome if e is town. But it’s devastating if scum is e and UoS.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 4)
Post by: jotheonah on February 17, 2019, 08:33:39 am
I was roleblocked last night for sure, and the night before possibly.

Scum has decided to mess with me a lot this game and I don't know why but I guess I should feel flattered.

Me reporting it at the time.

The other possibility is that I was one of the roles Haddock was (or wasn’t enabling). He flipped “Acgvie Enabler”.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: jotheonah on February 17, 2019, 08:34:46 am
*Active
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: jotheonah on February 17, 2019, 08:39:44 am
I’m actually feeling pretty darn sure the team is Space and UoS.

WCD, you said Snow came right out of the gate in the QT with his double target claim, right?

Think about it. Scum already knew you were a tracker. Snow knew what result you were going to get, and probably had a plan for if you targeted him.

Again that points to both scum being people we’re suspicious of, otherwise why not have the other one do the kill, knowing there’s a tracker?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on February 17, 2019, 08:45:12 am
I was temporarily confused about the claim to have redirected WCD too, especially since I've known she was an AI since D2.

The other confusing thing is that Awaclus claims to have RBd me that night, so we potentially have two RBs left active in the game if he is also to be believed.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on February 17, 2019, 08:47:07 am
@Awaclus: what colour do you flip? I'm kind of disappointed that the mass-claim didn't actually make you claim anything verifiable at all.

Green.

So your wincon has nothing to do with having to ensure Mail-mi was dead, you can win with town even in the presence of another Anaander, and we only have three factions?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on February 17, 2019, 08:49:27 am
One shot power that gives the target "an additional power," I don't know what it is.

Basically I'm a JOAT: Doc/Doc/Inventor

Has anyone ever seen a JOAT with two shots of one thing and one of another? I feel like in a game where many players are claiming multi-part roles, this would really have been described as two-shot doctor, one-shot inventor, and there's no need at all for the "JOAT" descriptor.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: Awaclus on February 17, 2019, 08:49:59 am
@Awaclus: what colour do you flip? I'm kind of disappointed that the mass-claim didn't actually make you claim anything verifiable at all.

Green.

So your wincon has nothing to do with having to ensure Mail-mi was dead, you can win with town even in the presence of another Anaander, and we only have three factions?

Yes, yes, and I would assume so.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on February 17, 2019, 09:16:34 am
I’m actually feeling pretty darn sure the team is Space and UoS.

WCD, you said Snow came right out of the gate in the QT with his double target claim, right?

Think about it. Scum already knew you were a tracker. Snow knew what result you were going to get, and probably had a plan for if you targeted him.

Again that points to both scum being people we’re suspicious of, otherwise why not have the other one do the kill, knowing there’s a tracker?

Yep, this is the point I have been mulling about UoS. It definitely makes for a good cover story, and he was all “you saw both my targets, right?”. I don’t know that I had said in the thread that I would only be able to see one, but maybe that is how tracker roles usually work (y’all know better than I on that) and regardless, my result on him was Glooble and Glooble died.

We still have no idea what “drugs” are and why they had been given to Glooble. Nothing else in the game has been that vague so I am suuuuuuper skeptical.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on February 17, 2019, 09:19:19 am
I’m actually feeling pretty darn sure the team is Space and UoS.

WCD, you said Snow came right out of the gate in the QT with his double target claim, right?

Think about it. Scum already knew you were a tracker. Snow knew what result you were going to get, and probably had a plan for if you targeted him.

Again that points to both scum being people we’re suspicious of, otherwise why not have the other one do the kill, knowing there’s a tracker?

I think you're implying that a space-UoS scumteam would already have known that WCD was a tracker. This is incorrect because WCD presented herself to me as a motion detector, as came out extensively in the thread when I realised she wasn't claiming motion detection results and got very suspicious of her. The only evidence I had for WCD being a tracker was the same as everyone else had in the thread, with WCD's claim about her role description being updated. So that doesn't actually imply any connection between me and scum!UoS, does it?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on February 17, 2019, 09:20:34 am
Nothing else in the game has been that vague so I am suuuuuuper skeptical.

Did you read Awaclus's claim?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on February 17, 2019, 09:22:10 am
More on UoS......I also have zero idea why he would have doctored Awaclus.

He said he was sure that I would be the NK, but doctored Awa? Does that make sense?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: Awaclus on February 17, 2019, 09:28:08 am
More on UoS......I also have zero idea why he would have doctored Awaclus.

Because he said he would do that and hoped that Space could confirm it.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on February 17, 2019, 09:29:07 am
Nothing else in the game has been that vague so I am suuuuuuper skeptical.

Did you read Awaclus's claim?

Oh, I mean vague about what the power was, not the person being vague. Awaclus was vague about what he disclosed, but UoS very clearly stated that he gave Glooble drugs, but none of us seems to know what that was or what it could do, and the fact that UoS doesn’t know and didn’t ask seems weird to me. everyone else seems to have some sense of what they could do (even if in my case it took a long time to get there).

TL;DR what the f are “drugs” and why don’t we care that there isn’t an answer to that?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 17, 2019, 11:34:41 am
Well, UoS claims that they don't know what drugs are, so no one knows
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 17, 2019, 11:36:13 am
Also, I think lynching UoS first makes the most sense right now.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 17, 2019, 11:38:10 am
One shot power that gives the target "an additional power," I don't know what it is.

Basically I'm a JOAT: Doc/Doc/Inventor

Has anyone ever seen a JOAT with two shots of one thing and one of another? I feel like in a game where many players are claiming multi-part roles, this would really have been described as two-shot doctor, one-shot inventor, and there's no need at all for the "JOAT" descriptor.

I think using "JOAT" as a descriptor there is fine. Especially because the role would really be doc/doc/inventor/drugger
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 17, 2019, 11:39:14 am
One shot power that gives the target "an additional power," I don't know what it is.

Basically I'm a JOAT: Doc/Doc/Inventor

Has anyone ever seen a JOAT with two shots of one thing and one of another? I feel like in a game where many players are claiming multi-part roles, this would really have been described as two-shot doctor, one-shot inventor, and there's no need at all for the "JOAT" descriptor.

I think using "JOAT" as a descriptor there is fine. Especially because the role would really be doc/doc/inventor/drugger

But really I think UoS is just lying since they are scum.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 17, 2019, 11:42:35 am
More on UoS......I also have zero idea why he would have doctored Awaclus.

He said he was sure that I would be the NK, but doctored Awa? Does that make sense?

Also, super convenient to claim Robz used up a shot.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on February 17, 2019, 11:55:00 am
E, what does inventor mean in the doc/doc/inventor/drugger list mean?

(duck, duck, goose!)
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: Awaclus on February 17, 2019, 11:58:11 am
E, what does inventor mean in the doc/doc/inventor/drugger list mean?

It means drugger.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 17, 2019, 11:58:54 am
E, what does inventor mean in the doc/doc/inventor/drugger list mean?

(duck, duck, goose!)

I would need to look back at their claim, and I don't really care to. Kind of just want to lynch them now.

From the time they were L-1 (briefly) with no hammer to this entire time at L-2, I am 100% confident they are scum
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: Awaclus on February 17, 2019, 11:59:50 am
From the time they were L-1 (briefly) with no hammer to this entire time at L-2, I am 100% confident they are scum

I'm not 100% confident you're town.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 17, 2019, 12:00:37 pm
E, what does inventor mean in the doc/doc/inventor/drugger list mean?

It means drugger.

Oh, so I guess it would be a 3 part JOAT. But like I said, I think it is a fine way to describe a role with limited shots even if they are the same shot for parts, another thing for something else. But like I said, doesn't really matter
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 17, 2019, 12:06:45 pm
From the time they were L-1 (briefly) with no hammer to this entire time at L-2, I am 100% confident they are scum

I'm not 100% confident you're town.

Yeah, but you can be 100% confident that I am not scum with WCD and joth (or you). The last option would be that I am scum with Space.

And if you think I built that whole case yesterday on space as their scum partner than you have a much higher estimation of the kind of bussing I will do as scum than what I would actually do. I will bus a partner, sure, but not build a thesis on them with a full reread picking out posts to build a case
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on February 17, 2019, 12:08:49 pm
E, what does inventor mean in the doc/doc/inventor/drugger list mean?

It means drugger.

Oh, so I guess it would be a 3 part JOAT. But like I said, I think it is a fine way to describe a role with limited shots even if they are the same shot for parts, another thing for something else. But like I said, doesn't really matter

Yeah, I get the JOAT title and think its fair, but I am still kind of mystified that there is a part of his role that he has no idea what it was.  That, in and of itself, is something I can't seem to get past. 
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on February 17, 2019, 12:10:09 pm
From the time they were L-1 (briefly) with no hammer to this entire time at L-2, I am 100% confident they are scum

I'm not 100% confident you're town.

Awa, how do you feel about Space?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 17, 2019, 12:14:11 pm
Basically the case on me for being scum is that I did a ton of anti-scum things throughout the game to build a strong town read by everyone to try to hopefully win at lylo.

You are saying, as scum.....
I saved a town vigilante.
I redirected my D4 case on town!UoS to my partner Space where the decision came to either lynch space or no lynch.

I guess those are the only big things.

Or I could be trying to lynch my partner UoS. Which if that is the case then, sure, yeah. Call me scum. It is starting to get absurd
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 17, 2019, 12:16:18 pm
From the time they were L-1 (briefly) with no hammer to this entire time at L-2, I am 100% confident they are scum

I'm not 100% confident you're town.

Awa, how do you feel about Space?

I think they are scum, but not 100% like UoS. So I say lynch UoS, track space. I feel like UoS/space decided it was best for UoS to perform the kill since they thought you would track space.

I thought you would track space.

And to that I say, well done, WCD. Well done
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 17, 2019, 12:18:19 pm
But you will be able to track space for a result tomorrow.

I will not make anyone hated.

If you are alive, you have a result. If I am alive we can mislynch and still win
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on February 17, 2019, 12:18:54 pm
I think they are scum, but not 100% like UoS. So I say lynch UoS, track space. I feel like UoS/space decided it was best for UoS to perform the kill since they thought you would track space.

I thought you would track space.

And to that I say, well done, WCD. Well done

Said no one ever in this game, but I will take it! ;D
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 17, 2019, 12:19:02 pm
So lynch the scum we have a result on, not the one we strongly think is scum
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on February 17, 2019, 12:19:53 pm
I'm down to vote for UoS
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: Awaclus on February 17, 2019, 12:37:12 pm
From the time they were L-1 (briefly) with no hammer to this entire time at L-2, I am 100% confident they are scum

I'm not 100% confident you're town.

Awa, how do you feel about Space?

They're my favorite lynch candidate for today.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: Awaclus on February 17, 2019, 12:37:55 pm
Actually Vote: Space
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on February 17, 2019, 12:45:09 pm
I am cool with Space, too.  As is Joth, I think.

Are we ready for this to go down?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 17, 2019, 12:45:42 pm
I am cool with Space, too.  As is Joth, I think.

Are we ready for this to go down?

I am ready for a UoS lynch.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: Awaclus on February 17, 2019, 12:46:52 pm
I am cool with Space, too.  As is Joth, I think.

Are we ready for this to go down?

I am ready for a UoS lynch.

Not for a Space lynch?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 17, 2019, 12:47:37 pm
I just really think that we need to trust WCD's result.  I will lynch Space if they are put at L-1, but I think it is the wrong choice.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 17, 2019, 12:48:38 pm
Basically the case on me for being scum is that I did a ton of anti-scum things throughout the game to build a strong town read by everyone to try to hopefully win at lylo.

You are saying, as scum.....
I saved a town vigilante.
I redirected my D4 case on town!UoS to my partner Space where the decision came to either lynch space or no lynch.

I guess those are the only big things.

Or I could be trying to lynch my partner UoS. Which if that is the case then, sure, yeah. Call me scum. It is starting to get absurd

Awaclus, review this. 

Do you agree with my assessment? 
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 17, 2019, 12:53:32 pm
The reason I am not 100% behind a Space lynch is because UoS is conf!scum to me.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 17, 2019, 12:57:05 pm
I am like 95% certain Space is scum, but that other 5% says that jotheonah or Awaclus might be scum. 

Actually Awaclus over joth.

I could totally this game only having one Aanander whatever thing (the survivor) and after the mail-mi flip and discussion scum!Awaclus decided that they would adopt parts of that claim and craft a fakeclaim.  The more I think about it the closer to 90% Space - 9% Awaclus - 1% joth.

or even 70%/25%/5%

I just really like that we have a result on UoS.  We don't have to leave this game up to a read on a player.  We have a result.  Lets use our result.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: Awaclus on February 17, 2019, 12:57:46 pm
I just really think that we need to trust WCD's result.  I will lynch Space if they are put at L-1, but I think it is the wrong choice.

I trust WCD's result, but it's consistent with a town!UoS narrative as well as a scum!UoS narrative.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: Awaclus on February 17, 2019, 01:00:56 pm
Basically the case on me for being scum is that I did a ton of anti-scum things throughout the game to build a strong town read by everyone to try to hopefully win at lylo.

You are saying, as scum.....
I saved a town vigilante.
I redirected my D4 case on town!UoS to my partner Space where the decision came to either lynch space or no lynch.

I guess those are the only big things.

Or I could be trying to lynch my partner UoS. Which if that is the case then, sure, yeah. Call me scum. It is starting to get absurd

Awaclus, review this. 

Do you agree with my assessment?

1) We have already established that it's completely reasonable for scum to save a town vigilante for town cred.
2) You did that and then you suddenly hammered ash out of nowhere, leading Space to not getting lynched.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: Awaclus on February 17, 2019, 01:10:15 pm
For how much you claim that you're fine with lynching Space, the more you post, the more it's looking like you aren't really.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 17, 2019, 01:12:25 pm
For how much you claim that you're fine with lynching Space, the more you post, the more it's looking like you aren't really.

I know you have already done your part voting Space, if you get two more votes I will hammer the first post after I see the L-1.  If I don't feel free to lynch me.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 17, 2019, 01:13:25 pm
For how much you claim that you're fine with lynching Space, the more you post, the more it's looking like you aren't really.

The more you post the less confident I feel that you are town.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on February 17, 2019, 01:18:41 pm
For how much you claim that you're fine with lynching Space, the more you post, the more it's looking like you aren't really.

The more you post the less confident I feel that you are town.

Right?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on February 17, 2019, 01:18:58 pm
And now its messing with me...
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 17, 2019, 01:19:45 pm
And now its messing with me...

which is why, when you don't trust your reads, trust your results
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: Awaclus on February 17, 2019, 01:28:55 pm
And now its messing with me...

which is why, when you don't trust your reads, trust your results

Which are consistent with what UoS is claiming. If you're town, why are you trying to manipulate WCD into lynching UoS over Space?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 17, 2019, 01:30:49 pm
And now its messing with me...

which is why, when you don't trust your reads, trust your results

Which are consistent with what UoS is claiming. If you're town, why are you trying to manipulate WCD into lynching UoS over Space?

because, based on the time that UoS spent at L-1, I am 100% confident they are scum. 

Unless the team is Awaclus/Space

Which is also ruled out now since you are both online right now an could hammer UoS.

So yeah.  I am now absolutely 100% confident UoS is scum.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on February 17, 2019, 01:36:32 pm
I'm reasonably confident that UoS is scum, because there's plenty that doesn't add up, and he was seen targeting Glooble. It makes sense for a scum to be able to perform the NK and have another role like an investigative power or a redirect.

However, I'm worried there's an outside chance that it's e-Awaclus, and that that's the reason they're trying to rush us into the UoS lynch. If either of you isn't scum, please slow down and think through all the implications of the things that people have said, rather than getting complacent about your growing conviction that you've figured out the scumteam.

I actually think UoS's most likely partner is Awaclus, because to me the whole Green-Anaander thing doesn't fit with Mail-mi's claim, and I don't think he had much reason to lie about it to town once he was desperate enough to claim his real role rather than using his fake-claim:

I am Anaaner Mianaai. I tried to recruit hypercube on N1. Everything that she said about my role is true--I win with town, and I must also be the only Anaander Mianaai left alive to win. From the wording in my PM, it seems like the other Anaander Mianaai does not win with town.

Note also that he flipped orange, which is a weird colour for a single third-party flip. So I really think Awaclus's claim is suspicious, if it implies that orange Mail-mi is the only "third-faction" player in the game.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: Awaclus on February 17, 2019, 01:37:03 pm
because, based on the time that UoS spent at L-1, I am 100% confident they are scum.

But we are not because we can't know if you're town or not.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: Awaclus on February 17, 2019, 01:38:50 pm
I actually think UoS's most likely partner is Awaclus, because to me the whole Green-Anaander thing doesn't fit with Mail-mi's claim, and I don't think he had much reason to lie about it to town once he was desperate enough to claim his real role rather than using his fake-claim:

I am Anaaner Mianaai. I tried to recruit hypercube on N1. Everything that she said about my role is true--I win with town, and I must also be the only Anaander Mianaai left alive to win. From the wording in my PM, it seems like the other Anaander Mianaai does not win with town.

Also btw the other anaander mianaai is probably town. I was just saying that to try to get y'all to kill her.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 17, 2019, 01:43:06 pm
because, based on the time that UoS spent at L-1, I am 100% confident they are scum.

But we are not because we can't know if you're town or not.

Yeah, that is true.  It is, you know, mylo.  At some point town has to make a decision.  Take your time, fine.

At this point you can know beyond any doubt that AT LEAST one of myself or UoS is scum.  We could both be scum, you still don't know.  It comes down to probabilities and reads at this point.

What are the odds that you think I am scum vs UoS?  I am obviously 100% that UoS is scum.  I would also argue that the evidence should point the rest of town to see at least a 70-30 odds that UoS is scum over me.  But maybe that is confirmation bias.

What do you say?  What are the odds that I am scum or UoS is scum?  50-50?  90-10?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: Awaclus on February 17, 2019, 01:44:25 pm
because, based on the time that UoS spent at L-1, I am 100% confident they are scum.

But we are not because we can't know if you're town or not.

Yeah, that is true.  It is, you know, mylo.  At some point town has to make a decision.  Take your time, fine.

At this point you can know beyond any doubt that AT LEAST one of myself or UoS is scum.  We could both be scum, you still don't know.  It comes down to probabilities and reads at this point.

What are the odds that you think I am scum vs UoS?  I am obviously 100% that UoS is scum.  I would also argue that the evidence should point the rest of town to see at least a 70-30 odds that UoS is scum over me.  But maybe that is confirmation bias.

What do you say?  What are the odds that I am scum or UoS is scum?  50-50?  90-10?

That's a difficult decision to make, which is why I'd rather make it tomorrow and make the easier decision of lynching Space today.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 17, 2019, 01:44:54 pm
I actually think UoS's most likely partner is Awaclus, because to me the whole Green-Anaander thing doesn't fit with Mail-mi's claim, and I don't think he had much reason to lie about it to town once he was desperate enough to claim his real role rather than using his fake-claim:

I am Anaaner Mianaai. I tried to recruit hypercube on N1. Everything that she said about my role is true--I win with town, and I must also be the only Anaander Mianaai left alive to win. From the wording in my PM, it seems like the other Anaander Mianaai does not win with town.

Also btw the other anaander mianaai is probably town. I was just saying that to try to get y'all to kill her.

We don't know that mail-mi wasn't lying.

Wait, we do know that mail-mi was lying about their role.  Like I said earlier, I very much lean on Space being scum over {joth, Awaclus}.  I would just prefer to have a result on them.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on February 17, 2019, 01:56:56 pm
based on the time that UoS spent at L-1, I am 100% confident they are scum. 

Do you mean the period from #1505 to #1536 in D4 (up until Joth unvoted), or the period from #2085 to #2096 in D5 (up until Awaclus unvoted)? Both of those are relatively short to consider a definitive proof.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 17, 2019, 02:01:55 pm
based on the time that UoS spent at L-1, I am 100% confident they are scum. 

Do you mean the period from #1505 to #1536 in D4 (up until Joth unvoted), or the period from #2085 to #2096 in D5 (up until Awaclus unvoted)? Both of those are relatively short to consider a definitive proof.

The time on D5.

from #2085 to #2096 UoS was at L-1 and both joth and WCD posted.
Then just now both you and Awaclus were online, so that is bascially a pseudo-Awaclus vote with you online.

Since I know I am town, if UoS is also town, then the scum team (two of {joth, WCD, Space, Awaclus}) could have hammered and won.

Therefore UoS is scum.  (from my point of view only, but I can be 100% confident)
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: jotheonah on February 17, 2019, 02:04:35 pm
I'm reasonably confident that UoS is scum, because there's plenty that doesn't add up, and he was seen targeting Glooble. It makes sense for a scum to be able to perform the NK and have another role like an investigative power or a redirect.

However, I'm worried there's an outside chance that it's e-Awaclus, and that that's the reason they're trying to rush us into the UoS lynch. If either of you isn't scum, please slow down and think through all the implications of the things that people have said, rather than getting complacent about your growing conviction that you've figured out the scumteam.

I actually think UoS's most likely partner is Awaclus, because to me the whole Green-Anaander thing doesn't fit with Mail-mi's claim, and I don't think he had much reason to lie about it to town once he was desperate enough to claim his real role rather than using his fake-claim:

I am Anaaner Mianaai. I tried to recruit hypercube on N1. Everything that she said about my role is true--I win with town, and I must also be the only Anaander Mianaai left alive to win. From the wording in my PM, it seems like the other Anaander Mianaai does not win with town.

Note also that he flipped orange, which is a weird colour for a single third-party flip. So I really think Awaclus's claim is suspicious, if it implies that orange Mail-mi is the only "third-faction" player in the game.

He said a few posts later (after he’d been hammered) that he made that part up to try to save himself and the other Aanander was probably town.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: jotheonah on February 17, 2019, 02:05:57 pm
vote: Space
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on February 17, 2019, 02:12:16 pm
vote: Space

That's L-1, I think.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 17, 2019, 02:12:39 pm
vote: Space

as promised
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on February 17, 2019, 02:36:45 pm
Wow, that was sudden and disastrous.

Well done scum. Bad play, town.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on February 17, 2019, 02:37:39 pm
I'm sold on Awaclus being scum.

If e's town, he's the main driving force in not thinking enough about this... so I guess he's the partner, rather than UoS? Though it could go either way.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 17, 2019, 02:39:44 pm
I mean, I know that there is still another day.  I really don't think space is a troll sort of person.  Which makes me really disappointed in myself.

Also disappointed with my fellow townies joth and WCD, mostly myself.

FREAKING TRUST YOUR RESULTS!!!!!!!

tantrum removed is Space is actually scum
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 17, 2019, 02:40:12 pm
like, seriously, WCD.  Trust yourself.  I seriously hope that space is trolling, but I highly doubt it.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 17, 2019, 02:41:07 pm
But yeah, I hammered.  I really wanted to win this game. 

I hate posting in twilight.  what am I even doing now?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on February 17, 2019, 02:42:18 pm
like, seriously, WCD.  Trust yourself.  I seriously hope that space is trolling, but I highly doubt it.

Uuuuuugggggghhhhhhhhhh
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 17, 2019, 02:42:59 pm
Awaclus voting and then unvoting UoS also seems to be a scum tell.

faust, hurry up and end the day, I am going crazy here.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on February 17, 2019, 02:43:11 pm
Sometimes I think I am learning and getting better and then nope
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on February 17, 2019, 02:43:23 pm
In case anyone has any magical powers that can pull this back for town... I'm one of the other Anaander Mianaai cultists who nobody seems to believe in, so you definitely lose if you lynch me instead of actual scum.

I didn't say anything earlier because I've been convinced all game that Joth was another one, even though I unsuccessfully tried to vig him last night. My powers are essentially exactly the same as Mail-mi's.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 17, 2019, 02:44:57 pm
In case anyone has any magical powers that can pull this back for town... I'm one of the other Anaander Mianaai cultists who nobody seems to believe in, so you definitely lose if you lynch me instead of actual scum.

I didn't say anything earlier because I've been convinced all game that Joth was another one, even though I unsuccessfully tried to vig him last night. My powers are essentially exactly the same as Mail-mi's.

and you don't claim this!?!?!?!?!

like, I don't feel bad anymore, I blame space for not counter-claiming Awaclus.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on February 17, 2019, 02:45:11 pm
Anyway, that's why I refused to lynch town last night -- I expected to vig another cultist in the night, and he might have actual recruits, and that would have killed too many townies for scum not to win.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on February 17, 2019, 02:45:29 pm
Dude!
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 17, 2019, 02:45:41 pm
no, wait.  This doesn't make sense.

Joth-UoS-LaLight scum team.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 17, 2019, 02:47:01 pm
if you are recruited, you are basically an IC.

I stated as much on D2 after hyper claimed. 
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on February 17, 2019, 02:49:04 pm
like, I don't feel bad anymore, I blame space for not counter-claiming Awaclus.

It's not a counter-claim to Awaclus, because he was claiming green-Anaander, and I flip purple.

That, and I was heading in the direction of leading town to the realisation that something wasn't right about what Awaclus was claiming. If only they hadn't suddenly all jumped on the Space wagon while I was in the middle of trying to urge caution and get people to think things through instead of getting complacent the minute they think they've been presented with a story that fits.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on February 17, 2019, 02:50:01 pm
Ironically, I tried to recruit e both on N1 and N3. If he's actually scum, that would have been very bad for me, but it seemed worth the gamble because he's been loudly scumreading me all game.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 17, 2019, 02:50:42 pm
like, I don't feel bad anymore, I blame space for not counter-claiming Awaclus.

It's not a counter-claim to Awaclus, because he was claiming green-Anaander, and I flip purple.

That, and I was heading in the direction of leading town to the realisation that something wasn't right about what Awaclus was claiming. If only they hadn't suddenly all jumped on the Space wagon while I was in the middle of trying to urge caution and get people to think things through instead of getting complacent the minute they think they've been presented with a story that fits.

so...we might just have 2 total scum and 1 orange Anaaner, 1 purple Anaander?

hopefully?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: Awaclus on February 17, 2019, 02:52:29 pm
so...we might just have 2 total scum and 1 orange Anaaner, 1 purple Anaander?

hopefully?

That would make sense. 2 of these cult factions is pretty bad for town.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on February 17, 2019, 02:52:50 pm
if you are recruited, you are basically an IC.

I stated as much on D2 after hyper claimed.

Yeah, but your logic was flawed because cultists can't risk revealing themselves to each other, and there are two cults. You posted about the symmetry at one point, though I think you said one was an odd-night recruiter and the other even, which wasn't the case because we both recruited on odd nights, and attempting to recruit the same people led to neither of us succeeding.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 17, 2019, 02:53:29 pm
Ironically, I tried to recruit e both on N1 and N3. If he's actually scum, that would have been very bad for me, but it seemed worth the gamble because he's been loudly scumreading me all game.

Interesting.  So I guess I was doctored(?) N1?

And then what on N3?

I just need to read the mod qt after this is all done.  But at this point I am more hopeful for another day.  LaLight was super powerful scum (full ninja+), maybe just 2 super powerful scum?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on February 17, 2019, 02:54:22 pm
so...we might just have 2 total scum and 1 orange Anaaner, 1 purple Anaander?

hopefully?

If so, then Awaclus is the scum. The semi-loyal vig part means we can shoot others who're Lord-of-the-Radch-aligned, which makes sense when there are other Anaanders out there we have to kill off, but makes no sense if there's a town one we can't touch because she's not Lord-of-the-Radch-aligned.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 17, 2019, 02:55:00 pm
if you are recruited, you are basically an IC.

I stated as much on D2 after hyper claimed.

Yeah, but your logic was flawed because cultists can't risk revealing themselves to each other, and there are two cults. You posted about the symmetry at one point, though I think you said one was an odd-night recruiter and the other even, which wasn't the case because we both recruited on odd nights, and attempting to recruit the same people led to neither of us succeeding.

ok, yeah.  Because you weren't a recruit, you were an actual Anaander.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: Awaclus on February 17, 2019, 02:55:15 pm
That, and I was heading in the direction of leading town to the realisation that something wasn't right about what Awaclus was claiming. If only they hadn't suddenly all jumped on the Space wagon while I was in the middle of trying to urge caution and get people to think things through instead of getting complacent the minute they think they've been presented with a story that fits.

Everything was right about what I was claiming. Weren't you just trying to get me lynched to get rid of an Anaander?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on February 17, 2019, 02:55:50 pm
Ironically, I tried to recruit e both on N1 and N3. If he's actually scum, that would have been very bad for me, but it seemed worth the gamble because he's been loudly scumreading me all game.

Interesting.  So I guess I was doctored(?) N1?

And then what on N3?

I was JKd by Swan N1. And Awaclus claims to have RBd me N3, which is consistent with my failed attempt. He's probably telling the truth about RBing me even though he's probably scum.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: Awaclus on February 17, 2019, 02:56:18 pm
Ironically, I tried to recruit e both on N1 and N3. If he's actually scum, that would have been very bad for me, but it seemed worth the gamble because he's been loudly scumreading me all game.

Interesting.  So I guess I was doctored(?) N1?

And then what on N3?

I just need to read the mod qt after this is all done.  But at this point I am more hopeful for another day.  LaLight was super powerful scum (full ninja+), maybe just 2 super powerful scum?

I roleblocked Space N3, as I claimed.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 17, 2019, 02:56:54 pm
so...we might just have 2 total scum and 1 orange Anaaner, 1 purple Anaander?

hopefully?

If so, then Awaclus is the scum. The semi-loyal vig part means we can shoot others who're Lord-of-the-Radch-aligned, which makes sense when there are other Anaanders out there we have to kill off, but makes no sense if there's a town one we can't touch because she's not Lord-of-the-Radch-aligned.

so you are proposing 1 red scum, 1 red Anaander (who is on a team with scum), 1 purple, 1 orange Anaander (both survivor types)
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 17, 2019, 02:57:38 pm
Ironically, I tried to recruit e both on N1 and N3. If he's actually scum, that would have been very bad for me, but it seemed worth the gamble because he's been loudly scumreading me all game.

Interesting.  So I guess I was doctored(?) N1?

And then what on N3?

I just need to read the mod qt after this is all done.  But at this point I am more hopeful for another day.  LaLight was super powerful scum (full ninja+), maybe just 2 super powerful scum?

I roleblocked Space N3, as I claimed.

ok, thats right.  I am going to need to do a full post of claims tomorrow (if I get there).  This stream of conscious posting I forget things.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 17, 2019, 03:01:08 pm
Also only having one other red scum throws of all my ideas about UoS being guaranteed scum off.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on February 17, 2019, 03:01:42 pm
so...we might just have 2 total scum and 1 orange Anaaner, 1 purple Anaander?

hopefully?

If so, then Awaclus is the scum. The semi-loyal vig part means we can shoot others who're Lord-of-the-Radch-aligned, which makes sense when there are other Anaanders out there we have to kill off, but makes no sense if there's a town one we can't touch because she's not Lord-of-the-Radch-aligned.

so you are proposing 1 red scum, 1 red Anaander (who is on a team with scum), 1 purple, 1 orange Anaander (both survivor types)

If he's scum, the Anaander part doesn't even have to be true. I think a three-person scum-team with Awaclus fake-claiming Anaander isn't impossible, though it's a weird fake-claim unless scum were trying to flush out the remaining cult in the hope of getting bonus NKs if I'd had other recruits.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on February 17, 2019, 03:05:58 pm
I am going to need to do a full post of claims tomorrow (if I get there).  This stream of conscious posting I forget things.

Hmm.. I guess 2v2 isn't a total loss if you're able to make someone hated, but Awaclus has a RB, so you're probably screwed unless there's only one scum left anyway.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 17, 2019, 03:08:03 pm
I am going to need to do a full post of claims tomorrow (if I get there).  This stream of conscious posting I forget things.

Hmm.. I guess 2v2 isn't a total loss if you're able to make someone hated, but Awaclus has a RB, so you're probably screwed unless there's only one scum left anyway.

I think Awaclus is right about two cults though having two total scum makes it very reasonable.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: Awaclus on February 17, 2019, 03:08:17 pm
I am going to need to do a full post of claims tomorrow (if I get there).  This stream of conscious posting I forget things.

Hmm.. I guess 2v2 isn't a total loss if you're able to make someone hated, but Awaclus has a RB, so you're probably screwed unless there's only one scum left anyway.

I'm town though so my roleblock is another way we can hope to win.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: Awaclus on February 17, 2019, 03:10:51 pm
Scum does have a roleblock of their own though because joth also got blocked that night.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 17, 2019, 03:12:20 pm
14 players, 2 scum, 2 cult leaders, 10 town.

worst case scenario for town:
D1 - mislynch
N1 - two players recruited, 1 NKed
D2 - 2 red, 2 purple, 2 orange, 6 green
N2 - 1 NK (with a mislynch)
D3 - 2 red, 2 purple, 2 orange, 4 green.  A mislynch with two people recruited to the two cults could potentially totally eliminate green

I mean, not realistic, but it is a worst case scenario, doesn't have to be realistic.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 17, 2019, 03:17:28 pm
LaLight has been lynched! She was Breq Mianaai, the Enemies of the Radch-aligned Ninja/Strong-Willed Restricted Goon!

And yeah.  This is a super powerful scum here.  If LaLight's partner is full RB+another enhancement...?  It is difficult to win as scum, but also difficult to win as orange or purple.  Or green.

It is kind of sad that no one got recruited at all.


ok.  I am more hopeful that we 1) get another day and 2) we can win it on that day.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: Awaclus on February 17, 2019, 03:17:39 pm
Scum does have a roleblock of their own though because joth also got blocked that night.

Also joth is probably town then.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 17, 2019, 03:23:51 pm
ok, enough twilight posting for me. 

I honestly don't know if I will use my hated tomorrow.  We have a tracker and a RB tonight.  Between those roles I hope we can catch scum.

Although I am a huge proponent of town uses their role.  So I will probably make UoS hated again tomorrow.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on February 17, 2019, 03:48:31 pm
Is UoS still our best guess for scum?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: Awaclus on February 17, 2019, 03:53:03 pm
Is UoS still our best guess for scum?

Yes.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on February 17, 2019, 03:54:53 pm
Is UoS still our best guess for scum?

The most important thing is that you and Joth need to stop listening to e and Awaclus and letting them take over the thread. They've created a completely unnecessary sense of urgency that's led the two of you to vote for me, at which point e quick-hammered. Be slow and rational and consider all the options.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: Awaclus on February 17, 2019, 03:57:06 pm
Is UoS still our best guess for scum?

The most important thing is that you and Joth need to stop listening to e and Awaclus and letting them take over the thread. They've created a completely unnecessary sense of urgency that's led the two of you to vote for me, at which point e quick-hammered. Be slow and rational and consider all the options.

There wasn't a sense of urgency, there was just nothing going on so it was nice for the game to keep moving.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: jotheonah on February 17, 2019, 04:15:47 pm
Yeah. This freaking game. We keep getting reasonable scum reads that turn out to be third parties. We lynch liars but don’t hit scum. Ugh.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on February 17, 2019, 04:32:50 pm
Is UoS still our best guess for scum?

The most important thing is that you and Joth need to stop listening to e and Awaclus and letting them take over the thread. They've created a completely unnecessary sense of urgency that's led the two of you to vote for me, at which point e quick-hammered. Be slow and rational and consider all the options.

There wasn't a sense of urgency, there was just nothing going on so it was nice for the game to keep moving.

Nonsense. Town benefits from not rushing into a mislynch, and doesn't suffer at all from taking a reasonable amount of time in which to react to new ideas being posted in-thread. New ideas such as all my questions over your claim and everyone's apparent belief that we have a green, red and orange faction but nothing else.

I have a mental list of points I'd wanted to lead town through, starting with asking you about your flip colour. I hadn't even gotten around to following up on the issues surrounding RBs, multiple actions and tracker results. Joth never finished explaining why he wanted to redirect WCD onto e. Awaclus was never even pressed for a real full-claim. I know he was the least-scummy-looking one of the bunch yesterday (to me at least, only because yesterday I was quite sure that Joth and possibly Glooble/WCD were in another Anaandre cult), but that's not a good excuse for not making him give a better description of what he was doing, in case it interfered with anything anyone else hadn't claimed because they were holding back. This day was nowhere near done.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: Awaclus on February 17, 2019, 05:24:29 pm
Nonsense. Town benefits from not rushing into a mislynch, and doesn't suffer at all from taking a reasonable amount of time in which to react to new ideas being posted in-thread. New ideas such as all my questions over your claim and everyone's apparent belief that we have a green, red and orange faction but nothing else.

I have a mental list of points I'd wanted to lead town through, starting with asking you about your flip colour. I hadn't even gotten around to following up on the issues surrounding RBs, multiple actions and tracker results. Joth never finished explaining why he wanted to redirect WCD onto e. Awaclus was never even pressed for a real full-claim. I know he was the least-scummy-looking one of the bunch yesterday (to me at least, only because yesterday I was quite sure that Joth and possibly Glooble/WCD were in another Anaandre cult), but that's not a good excuse for not making him give a better description of what he was doing, in case it interfered with anything anyone else hadn't claimed because they were holding back. This day was nowhere near done.

If you wanted to challenge everyone's apparent belief that we only had three factions or follow up on the issues surrounding RBs, you could have chosen not to lie to us about both of these issues in the first place.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: jotheonah on February 17, 2019, 06:09:40 pm
Anyone else want to claim AI so I can maybe protect you from blocking?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on February 17, 2019, 09:07:51 pm
Why are we still in twilight? Is something strange going on?
Just in case...Unvote
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: faust on February 18, 2019, 01:17:34 am
Day 5 Final Vote Count

SpaceAnemone (4): Awaclus, jotheonah, WestCoastDidds, 2.71828.....

Not Voting (2): SpaceAnemone, UmbrageOfSnow

With 6 alive, it took 4 to lynch.

Sorry about the delay.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 5)
Post by: faust on February 18, 2019, 01:26:18 am
Athoek Station was in turmoil. The residents of the Undergarden united with the worker of the tea plantations to declare themselves independent of the Radch and - by extension - outside the jurisdiction of System Governor Giarod. Over all the internal struggle, news from the rest of Radch space nearly went unnoticed.

SpaceAnemone has been lynched! She was Anaander Mianaai, the Lord-of-the-Radch-aligned 2-shot Active Bulletproof/1-shot Semi-Loyal Vigilante Modified Odd-Night Cult Leader Even-Night Modified Redirector.

Night 5 starts now and lasts until February 20, 2019, 01:30:00 am. Night actions are due 1 hour before that.

Thread locked!
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 6)
Post by: faust on February 20, 2019, 02:25:27 am
The rebellion was in full swing now. A mob of Undergarden residents stormed the governor's office, Station Security unable to hold them back.

2.71828..... has been killed! She was System Governor Giarod, the Radch-aligned Public Hated-iser 1-shot Copping Governor.

UmbrageOfSnow takes 1 vote less to lynch today.

Day 6 begins!


Vote Count 6.0

Not Voting (4): Awaclus, jotheonah, UmbrageOfSnow, WestCoastDidds

With 4 alive, it takes 3 to lynch. Day 6 starts now and ends on February 27, 2019, 02:30:00 am.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 6)
Post by: faust on February 20, 2019, 02:32:21 am
After some thinking, I have decided that there is no way around it.

jotheonah and WestCoastDidds have been endgamed.

The scum team of LaLight, Awaclus and UmbrageOfSnow wins!
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 6)
Post by: faust on February 20, 2019, 02:34:07 am
Mod QT (https://www.quicktopic.com/52/H/5p8MLzcPMq5)

Speccy (https://www.quicktopic.com/52/H/2irnmXfXg4sd)

Mafia QT (https://www.quicktopic.com/52/H/xC8jNs5KV8fp)

I will probably post the various WCD Neighborhoods later.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Game over)
Post by: LaLight on February 20, 2019, 02:34:32 am
yay! gg team!
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Game over)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 20, 2019, 02:34:56 am
Ok, yeah.

3 player scum team does make it impossible
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Game over)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 20, 2019, 02:35:36 am
So frustrating.

I should have stuck to my conf!scum!UoS vote
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Game over)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 20, 2019, 02:36:30 am
And yeah, game could have ended at the mislynch
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Game over)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 20, 2019, 02:38:43 am
Like, just ugh.


But very good game. I really liked the double survivor that only wins with town thing. Well designed and I thought very balanced and good setup
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Game over)
Post by: faust on February 20, 2019, 02:42:11 am
And yeah, game could have ended at the mislynch
joth had a window to redirect Awaclus's NK to UoS.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Game over)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 20, 2019, 02:44:44 am
And yeah, game could have ended at the mislynch
joth had a window to redirect Awaclus's NK to UoS.

Ah, interesting. Then yeah, had to go through the night.

I probably helped talking joth into believing we only had 1 scum left during twilight.

I should never have broken my unwritten rule of "never post anything in twilight as town or scum"
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Game over)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 20, 2019, 02:54:12 am
Like, I really don't get why space did not feel comfortable claiming they were the other anaander after mail-mi died.

Mail-mi confirmed that the other anaander was town. Therefore when Awaclus claims other anaander they are confirmed town. Except they were lying scum. I feel like a full claim from space right there wins the game
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Game over)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 20, 2019, 02:55:02 am
But I never should have lynched space.

Although it probably wouldn't have mattered since UoS could have lynched them for a likely win
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Game over)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 20, 2019, 02:55:24 am
Unless joth or WCD decided to unvote.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Game over)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 20, 2019, 02:57:30 am
Also, I think Awaclus is MVP here. If I get a vote
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Game over)
Post by: LaLight on February 20, 2019, 02:58:21 am
Also, I think Awaclus is MVP here. If I get a vote
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Game over)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 20, 2019, 03:02:07 am
Also, people should sign up for deep space http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=19459.0

I need another game to be scummy town with overconfident reads that make no one believe me.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Game over)
Post by: Awaclus on February 20, 2019, 03:19:54 am
Thanks for the game, it was a fun one. The cultists were a pretty interesting mechanic, and I think the fact that there were two of them made the game pretty favored to scum. It could have been really bad for us if we had gotten copped by the Anaanders, but in this case it just helped us a little bit since xyrix got killed, and it could have helped a lot more if they had killed or recruited more town.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Game over)
Post by: LaLight on February 20, 2019, 03:33:35 am
another game where I continue telling myself to think about fakeclaim beforehand and then don't and then get screwed up over it
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Game over)
Post by: Awaclus on February 20, 2019, 03:41:16 am
Also UoS did a lot of stuff in the scum QT, especially when he first joined the game, which made me all fired up to try a little harder myself so even though he wasn't super present in the main thread later on, his contributions shouldn't be undervalued.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Game over)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 20, 2019, 04:02:14 am
Thanks for the game, it was a fun one. The cultists were a pretty interesting mechanic, and I think the fact that there were two of them made the game pretty favored to scum. It could have been really bad for us if we had gotten copped by the Anaanders, but in this case it just helped us a little bit since xyrix got killed, and it could have helped a lot more if they had killed or recruited more town.

So, I agree slightly, but also the cultists could only win with town. So that *should* have made space an IC after mail-mi was lynched. Which would have helped a lot. Like, I would have never switched off UoS on D4 and they might have been lynched instead of ashersky.

Who knows.

I do think having only two scum would have been favored for town though
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Game over)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 20, 2019, 04:15:17 am
Just read the speccy- nice call hypercube in /m11
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Game over)
Post by: Awaclus on February 20, 2019, 04:20:56 am
FWIW on D2, my intention was not to save LaLight, it was to make myself look as towny as possible by doing the only thing I could think of that scum probably wouldn't do in the situation.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Game over)
Post by: Awaclus on February 20, 2019, 04:36:38 am
And yeah, game could have ended at the mislynch
joth had a window to redirect Awaclus's NK to UoS.

You mean the other way round? I wasn't an AI.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Game over)
Post by: faust on February 20, 2019, 04:37:15 am
And yeah, game could have ended at the mislynch
joth had a window to redirect Awaclus's NK to UoS.

You mean the other way round? I wasn't an AI.
Yes, sorry.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Game over)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on February 20, 2019, 05:28:08 am
Like, I really don't get why space did not feel comfortable claiming they were the other anaander after mail-mi died.

Mail-mi confirmed that the other anaander was town. Therefore when Awaclus claims other anaander they are confirmed town. Except they were lying scum. I feel like a full claim from space right there wins the game

I was really convinced that Joth was another Anaander, and I thought it was perfectly possible to have more than two, so it never seemed safe to claim.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Game over)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on February 20, 2019, 05:30:29 am
But I never should have lynched space.

Although it probably wouldn't have mattered since UoS could have lynched them for a likely win

You'd been super-suspicious of me for days, and I was townreading you until not long before your quicklynch show with Awaclus. If Awaclus hadn't RBd me N3 then you'd have had the full story in a recruiting QT.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Game over)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on February 20, 2019, 05:34:13 am
So, I agree slightly, but also the cultists could only win with town. So that *should* have made space an IC after mail-mi was lynched.

You keep saying that we could only win with town. That's not true: we could also win instead of town, by converting the last remaining townie before killing off the last red-flip player.

I even tried to make that clear in-thread sometime earlier in the game, because otherwise it would seem scummy if/when it did come out later that it was a possibility. I think Glooble agreed that it sounded possible but everyone else ignored it...
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Game over)
Post by: SpaceAnemone on February 20, 2019, 05:40:19 am
Oh, hey. I just read the mod QT and discovered I was the intended N1 kill. That's unexpected even for me :-P

I'm looking forward to having time to read the scum QT later, but it looks too long to read from work..

faust, are you happy for players to post their own QTs now too?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Game over)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 20, 2019, 05:48:57 am
So, I agree slightly, but also the cultists could only win with town. So that *should* have made space an IC after mail-mi was lynched.

You keep saying that we could only win with town. That's not true: we could also win instead of town, by converting the last remaining townie before killing off the last red-flip player.

I even tried to make that clear in-thread sometime earlier in the game, because otherwise it would seem scummy if/when it did come out later that it was a possibility. I think Glooble agreed that it sounded possible but everyone else ignored it...

Ok, yeah. Better stated is that you couldn't win with scum.

I do wish that my recruitment had gone through
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Game over)
Post by: faust on February 20, 2019, 05:54:21 am
Like, I really don't get why space did not feel comfortable claiming they were the other anaander after mail-mi died.

Mail-mi confirmed that the other anaander was town. Therefore when Awaclus claims other anaander they are confirmed town. Except they were lying scum. I feel like a full claim from space right there wins the game

I was really convinced that Joth was another Anaander, and I thought it was perfectly possible to have more than two, so it never seemed safe to claim.
I was quite hilarious that both Anaanders were hard-tunneling different players to be the other Anaander, neither of which really was the other Anaander. You were betting on joth, mail-mi was sure it was e.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Game over)
Post by: faust on February 20, 2019, 05:54:37 am
faust, are you happy for players to post their own QTs now too?
Sure, go ahead
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Game over)
Post by: Awaclus on February 20, 2019, 06:20:23 am
Here's my QT but there's nothing interesting in it: https://www.quicktopic.com/52/H/uvgfwwWbFgeJt
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Game over)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on February 20, 2019, 06:37:30 am
Ugh! Sorry everyone. Good job, Awaclus! Super interesting set up faust!!

https://www.quicktopic.com/52/H/yf7q68DVE2gf
(M35 is where he says my role descriptor has changed. I played badly, but I was never lying about my confusion)

Space
https://www.quicktopic.com/52/H/3UFqv7ueNyL

Swan
https://www.quicktopic.com/52/H/2KzPBfP7Si7L

UoS
https://www.quicktopic.com/52/H/nGYV74DUdyG

Joth
https://www.quicktopic.com/52/H/gUA5R9ScyGfF

Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Game over)
Post by: jotheonah on February 20, 2019, 07:20:46 am
And yeah, game could have ended at the mislynch
joth had a window to redirect Awaclus's NK to UoS.

Ugh. I considered that avenue, but really thought Awaclus was town! What was with all my night actions not working?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Game over)
Post by: jotheonah on February 20, 2019, 07:33:35 am
Why did scum roleblock me every single night!? So freustrating!
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Game over)
Post by: faust on February 20, 2019, 07:35:55 am
Why did scum roleblock me every single night!? So freustrating!
I was somewhat surprised that they did not spend more time blocking WCD.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Game over)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on February 20, 2019, 07:40:05 am
‘Cause we all know I’m not a threat!
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Game over)
Post by: jotheonah on February 20, 2019, 07:45:53 am
Oh and Awaclus MVP all the way.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Game over)
Post by: jotheonah on February 20, 2019, 07:46:55 am
Also, we need 3 more for DS9! All the cool kids are doing it!
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Game over)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on February 20, 2019, 07:53:07 am
Yes, Awaclus is my MVP vote, too

And thanks, faust for a role where I got to talk so much to so many folks! I love it that I know Space, DatSwan, and Joth better than I did before.

Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Game over)
Post by: jotheonah on February 20, 2019, 07:57:53 am
So mad at myself for voting Space. Sloppy!!

But now that I know more about ash’s power, I find his use of it Day 1 even more suspect!
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Game over)
Post by: Awaclus on February 20, 2019, 08:48:11 am
Why did scum roleblock me every single night!? So freustrating!
I was somewhat surprised that they did not spend more time blocking WCD.

Well, I had a slight suspicion that WCD might have an investigative ability that lets her investigate her neighbors, partially because I had that in the Buffy/Angel mafia and it was cool, and partially because she was so convinced that her targets were town afterwards, but I wasn't too worried about that being the case until she claimed that it was. Then, between trying to construct a believable town narrative for the actions that I actually took, making it as hard as possible for mislynch targets to IC themselves with believable/verifiable claims, and trying to shut down unpredictable night abilities, we just ended up blocking joth a lot because his ability was very unpredictable as we didn't know anything about it until very late, and we were planning to mislynch him at some point and I thought that blocking him N2 would have been reasonable for a town roleblocker too although I changed my mind later and left that out when I committed to the roleblocker claim.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Game over)
Post by: mail-mi on February 20, 2019, 08:51:49 am
Ah, gg scum.
Space, I was like 100% convinced you were scum. Turns out, I needed to kill you anyway.  ::)
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Game over)
Post by: jotheonah on February 20, 2019, 09:03:48 am
I think the game went wrong for me when I decided to stop trusting e. I completely WIFOMed myself and scum took that ball and ran with it. When will I learn that early claims are not CRAZY SCUM GAMBITS?
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Game over)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on February 20, 2019, 09:05:13 am
And I needed to trust e more than Joth!
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Game over)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 20, 2019, 09:26:55 am
I think the game went wrong for me when I decided to stop trusting e. I completely WIFOMed myself and scum took that ball and ran with it. When will I learn that early claims are not CRAZY SCUM GAMBITS?

I will be sure to claim early in deep space 9
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Game over)
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 20, 2019, 09:27:37 am
Except joth is the mod, so that won't necessarily work
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Game over)
Post by: Glooble on February 20, 2019, 10:54:14 am
I have no idea what to take away from all of this. On the one hand, I backed off of Awaclus because everyone else said I should, even though I continued to think he was scummy. On the other hand, ash and e both turned out to be town! So I don't know if I should trust my reads more, or less.

Why didn't I hammer UoS when he was at L-1? I almost did. I was just worried about the double-hated ash situation.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Game over)
Post by: jotheonah on February 20, 2019, 10:56:50 am
Snow/Robz's unfortunate RL availability issues created a really tricky situation for town. We were all trying to be fair and accommodating, but it made it tough to read Snow and I felt like a jerk building that case on D3. It turns out the scumslip I found really was one!
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Game over)
Post by: hypercube on February 20, 2019, 03:43:11 pm
I really do not understand why town let Awaclus off the hook. I guess I should have yelled at everyone about that in twilight before I died.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Game over)
Post by: jotheonah on February 20, 2019, 03:54:23 pm
I really do not understand why town let Awaclus off the hook. I guess I should have yelled at everyone about that in twilight before I died.

He fooled my gut read. Somehow.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Game over)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on February 20, 2019, 04:09:58 pm
I only just started feeling wary about Awaclus earlier this week, after we had mislynched Space. And even then it was a "wait a minute...he is being helpful...that's not like him... and leading us the wrong way!" moment.

Well played.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Game over)
Post by: Glooble on February 20, 2019, 04:25:25 pm
I really do not understand why town let Awaclus off the hook. I guess I should have yelled at everyone about that in twilight before I died.

I tried, man. Everybody told me to stop.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Game over)
Post by: faust on February 22, 2019, 04:12:28 am
Finishing up, I want to echo many other people's sentiments here:

Awaclus is MVP.

While UoS also did a lot of good work mainly in the scum QT, it was the way Awaclus convinced a large part of town of his townieness that I think carried the win in the end.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Game over)
Post by: WestCoastDidds on February 22, 2019, 06:47:22 am
Hooray for Awaclus!

Of course now we're gonna expect you to engage with us when you're town... get ready for more chatting!! :)
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Game over)
Post by: Glooble on February 22, 2019, 11:40:06 am
In retrospect, though, Awaclus's attacks on me at the beginning of day 3 were super scummy though, right? And Haddock and I were the only people who saw it that way. And then everyone thought my case on Awaclus was OMGUS.
Title: Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Game over)
Post by: Awaclus on February 22, 2019, 12:03:42 pm
In retrospect, though, Awaclus's attacks on me at the beginning of day 3 were super scummy though, right? And Haddock and I were the only people who saw it that way. And then everyone thought my case on Awaclus was OMGUS.

I was just setting up the Anaander fake claim.