Dominion Strategy Forum

Dominion => Puzzles and Challenges => Topic started by: dghunter79 on November 13, 2018, 01:22:06 am

Title: Can you infinitely play nesting Black Markets?
Post by: dghunter79 on November 13, 2018, 01:22:06 am
Someone had to ask.  I really have no idea myself.
Title: Re: Can you infinitely play nesting Black Markets?
Post by: faust on November 13, 2018, 01:39:34 am
Yes.

Kingdom needs Black Market, Watchtower, Rogue, Mandarin, Storyteller, Capitalism

Mandarin in the trash. Deck: BM, Watchtower, Rogue, Storyteller. Capitalism bought.

Play BM
  Play Storyteller
    Play Rogue gaining Mandarin, trashing with Watchtower
      topdeck Storyteller, BM, Rogue
    draw Rogue, Storyteller, BM from Storyteller

And repeat.
Title: Re: Can you infinitely play nesting Black Markets?
Post by: dghunter79 on November 13, 2018, 01:55:10 am
Yes.

Kingdom needs Black Market, Watchtower, Rogue, Mandarin, Storyteller, Capitalism

Mandarin in the trash. Deck: BM, Watchtower, Rogue, Storyteller. Capitalism bought.

Play BM
  Play Storyteller
    Play Rogue gaining Mandarin, trashing with Watchtower
      topdeck Storyteller, BM, Rogue
    draw Rogue, Storyteller, BM from Storyteller

And repeat.

Thanks!  But don't you run out of Black Markets this way?
Title: Re: Can you infinitely play nesting Black Markets?
Post by: bitwise on November 13, 2018, 02:01:24 am
Yes.

Kingdom needs Black Market, Watchtower, Rogue, Mandarin, Storyteller, Capitalism

Mandarin in the trash. Deck: BM, Watchtower, Rogue, Storyteller. Capitalism bought.

Play BM
  Play Storyteller
    Play Rogue gaining Mandarin, trashing with Watchtower
      topdeck Storyteller, BM, Rogue
    draw Rogue, Storyteller, BM from Storyteller

And repeat.

Thanks!  But don't you run out of Black Markets this way?
Gaining the Mandarin recovers the Black Market (and Storyteller and Rogue) from play onto your deck, which lets you draw them and play them again. This loop keeps playing the same Black Market over and over.
Title: Re: Can you infinitely play nesting Black Markets?
Post by: sudgy on November 13, 2018, 02:12:20 am
Does anybody want to try to crash ShuffleIT?  I'm interested in seeing what would happen.
Title: Re: Can you infinitely play nesting Black Markets?
Post by: Awaclus on November 13, 2018, 03:25:16 am
Does anybody want to try to crash ShuffleIT?  I'm interested in seeing what would happen.

I gave up after 64 nested Black Markets still working roughly correctly. The only problem was the log doing this, which it always does when you nest things too much:

(https://img.aijaa.com/b/00569/14636228.jpg)

The funny thing is that the Black Market deck gets emptied after 20 Black Markets, and then it gets rearranged in the opposite order in groups of 3 when you stop doing the loop.
Title: Re: Can you infinitely play nesting Black Markets?
Post by: GendoIkari on November 13, 2018, 02:21:27 pm
If you play a Black Market while Black Market cards are revealed, is it supposed to reveal the next 3? Revealed cards are supposed to be still considered to have not moved, right? So the top 3 cards would still be the 3 that are currently revealed wouldn't they?

I remember this being discussed before with Lookout trashing Overgrown Estate. Is there a rule out there that says that when a card is revealed from the top of a deck, it is temporarily considered to not still be the top card of that deck?
Title: Re: Can you infinitely play nesting Black Markets?
Post by: Awaclus on November 13, 2018, 09:16:33 pm
If you play a Black Market while Black Market cards are revealed, is it supposed to reveal the next 3? Revealed cards are supposed to be still considered to have not moved, right? So the top 3 cards would still be the 3 that are currently revealed wouldn't they?

If it wasn't supposed to reveal the next 3, then Scrying Pool would never reveal anything beyond the first card (infinitely many times if it happens to be an Action) by the same logic.
Title: Re: Can you infinitely play nesting Black Markets?
Post by: GendoIkari on November 13, 2018, 10:08:16 pm
If you play a Black Market while Black Market cards are revealed, is it supposed to reveal the next 3? Revealed cards are supposed to be still considered to have not moved, right? So the top 3 cards would still be the 3 that are currently revealed wouldn't they?

If it wasn't supposed to reveal the next 3, then Scrying Pool would never reveal anything beyond the first card (infinitely many times if it happens to be an Action) by the same logic.

Good point. So I guess it's just a rule that a revealed (or being looked at) card isn't considered to be on top of your deck for the moment? Or just that to reveal the top card of a deck, you reveal the top not-already-revealed card.
Title: Re: Can you infinitely play nesting Black Markets?
Post by: faust on November 14, 2018, 01:43:28 am
Since with Doctor, you put the revealed card back in any order, it's clear that they have been moved in the process of being revealed.
Title: Re: Can you infinitely play nesting Black Markets?
Post by: Asper on November 14, 2018, 04:18:22 am
I remember this being discussed before with Lookout trashing Overgrown Estate. Is there a rule out there that says that when a card is revealed from the top of a deck, it is temporarily considered to not still be the top card of that deck?

Lookouting an Overgrown Estate indeed draws a non-revealed card.
Title: Re: Can you infinitely play nesting Black Markets?
Post by: GendoIkari on November 14, 2018, 10:08:57 am
Since with Doctor, you put the revealed card back in any order, it's clear that they have been moved in the process of being revealed.

Indeed... but I think it's an inconsistency, because Wishing Well (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Wishing_Well) does not tell you to put the revealed card back.
Title: Re: Can you infinitely play nesting Black Markets?
Post by: faust on November 14, 2018, 10:31:02 am
Since with Doctor, you put the revealed card back in any order, it's clear that they have been moved in the process of being revealed.

Indeed... but I think it's an inconsistency, because Wishing Well (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Wishing_Well) does not tell you to put the revealed card back.
I think reveal always comes with an implicit "after finishing revealing, put this back to where you revealed it from". Although I am not sure if it is always clear when the revealing ends exactly.
Title: Re: Can you infinitely play nesting Black Markets?
Post by: Asper on November 14, 2018, 10:41:09 am
Since with Doctor, you put the revealed card back in any order, it's clear that they have been moved in the process of being revealed.

Indeed... but I think it's an inconsistency, because Wishing Well (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Wishing_Well) does not tell you to put the revealed card back.
I think reveal always comes with an implicit "after finishing revealing, put this back to where you revealed it from". Although I am not sure if it is always clear when the revealing ends exactly.

It does. You are only told to put them back if you can reorder them or if it's one of 3 or more options for where the card can go.