Dominion Strategy Forum
Archive => Archive => Dominion: Renaissance Previews => Topic started by: jonvs on November 05, 2018, 05:00:12 pm
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I LOVE the idea of the Capitalism Project, but I have so many questions about its execution that don’t seem to be answered in the rule book.
1. Does it add the Treasure type to an Action card (that would of course affect things like Courtier or Inheritance acting on Action cards) or replace its type, or is it merely played as a Treasure while retaining its type of Action?
2. Can this Project be used on conditional +$__ cards like Minion or Pawn? Or can it only be ones like Market that give you the +$__ no matter what?
3. I assume the other effects of the card don’t get played—because if they did, a Monument becomes a Plunder for $1 cheaper—but what happens to cards like Goons which have text below the line that affect what happens when it’s played?
This changes so much!
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I LOVE the idea of the Capitalism Project, but I have so many questions about its execution that don’t seem to be answered in the rule book.
1. Does it add the Treasure type to an Action card (that would of course affect things like Courtier or Inheritance acting on Action cards) or replace its type, or is it merely played as a Treasure while retaining its type of Action?
2. Can this Project be used on conditional +$__ cards like Minion or Pawn? Or can it only be ones like Market that give you the +$__ no matter what?
3. I assume the other effects of the card don’t get played—because if they did, a Monument becomes a Plunder for $1 cheaper—but what happens to cards like Goons which have text below the line that affect what happens when it’s played?
1) It adds the type. You play it as a Treasure - Action.
2) It works on Minon and Pawn.
3) The other effects of the card do get played and Monument becomes a Plunder for $1 cheaper, and Goons also does its below-the-line effect.
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Teacher refers to the “+ $1 Token” in its text. Does this count as a “+ $” amount, so is he a Treasure, when I own capitalism?
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The trick to all of these questions is to simply interpret the wording literally, as written. It says that they are also Treasures; it doesn't change them in any other way. Monument does indeed still give you the +1(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/9/92/VP.png/16px-VP.png), because there's nothing about the text of Capitalism that would imply it doesn't.
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The trick to all of these questions is to simply interpret the wording literally, as written. It says that they are also Treasures; it doesn't change them in any other way. Monument does indeed still give you the +1(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/9/92/VP.png/16px-VP.png), because there's nothing about the text of Capitalism that would imply it doesn't.
That's clear, but how is a “+ $ amount” defined? Is the “+ $ 1” in “+ $ 1 token” also a “+ $ amount”? This question specifically regards Teacher.
An interesting finding would be, if we look at the term “+ 1 Card”. The first version of Cellar had this, the new version has not. I wonder if there would be similar issues, for example if Pirate Ship would be reworded and lost its “+ $1” in the 3rd edition.
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The trick to all of these questions is to simply interpret the wording literally, as written. It says that they are also Treasures; it doesn't change them in any other way. Monument does indeed still give you the +1(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/9/92/VP.png/16px-VP.png), because there's nothing about the text of Capitalism that would imply it doesn't.
That's clear, but how is a “+ $ amount” defined? Is the “+ $ 1” in “+ $ 1 token” also a “+ $ amount”? This question specifically regards Teacher.
An interesting finding would be, if we look at the term “+ 1 Card”. The first version of Cellar had this, the new version has not. I wonder if there would be similar issues, for example if Pirate Ship would be reworded and lost its “+ $1” in the 3rd edition.
That's a fair question. In fact Salvager did change from being +(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/6/6d/Coin.png/16px-Coin.png) to +(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/f/f7/Coin1.png/16px-Coin1.png); but fortunately both of those wordings qualify for Capitalism.
I feel pretty sure that "+(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/f/f7/Coin1.png/16px-Coin1.png) token" doesn't count as having a +(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/6/6d/Coin.png/16px-Coin.png) amount; but indeed both Teacher and Market literally contain the text "+(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/f/f7/Coin1.png/16px-Coin1.png)".
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Teacher is affected by Capitalism. The same question came up for Dominion Online and Donald answered affirmative.
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Teacher is affected by Capitalism. The same question came up for Dominion Online and Donald answered affirmative.
I'm surprised by this. Is the rule that Capitalism intends to simply look for any instance of "+(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/6/6d/Coin.png/16px-Coin.png)" in the text (with any possible number in the coin of course)?
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Is the rule that Capitalism intends to simply look for any instance of "+(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/6/6d/Coin.png/16px-Coin.png)" in the text?
This is not so much a rule as exactly what the Capitalism card-shaped object says in its text.
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Is the rule that Capitalism intends to simply look for any instance of "+(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/6/6d/Coin.png/16px-Coin.png)" in the text?
This is not so much a rule as exactly what the Capitalism card-shaped object says in its text.
Well not quite, it says it looks for "+(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/6/6d/Coin.png/16px-Coin.png) amounts". It's reasonable to interpret the "+(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/f/f7/Coin1.png/16px-Coin1.png) token" as simply a name of a token rather than being an "amount".
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Is the rule that Capitalism intends to simply look for any instance of "+(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/6/6d/Coin.png/16px-Coin.png)" in the text?
This is not so much a rule as exactly what the Capitalism card-shaped object says in its text.
Well not quite, it says it looks for "+(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/6/6d/Coin.png/16px-Coin.png) amounts". It's reasonable to interpret the "+(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/f/f7/Coin1.png/16px-Coin1.png) token" as simply a name of a token rather than being an "amount".
There was some debate. I agree that the ruling is not obvious.
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Teacher is affected by Capitalism. The same question came up for Dominion Online and Donald answered affirmative.
Well, crap. It doesn't even stop at the education system!
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Is the rule that Capitalism intends to simply look for any instance of "+(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/6/6d/Coin.png/16px-Coin.png)" in the text?
This is not so much a rule as exactly what the Capitalism card-shaped object says in its text.
Well not quite, it says it looks for "+(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/6/6d/Coin.png/16px-Coin.png) amounts". It's reasonable to interpret the "+(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/f/f7/Coin1.png/16px-Coin1.png) token" as simply a name of a token rather than being an "amount".
There was some debate. I agree that the ruling is not obvious.
Well, looking for any literal instances of "+(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/6/6d/Coin.png/16px-Coin.png)" does the best job of maintaining my sanity.
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Thanks, everyone! :)
I just realised that because you can play Treasures in any order (which affects certain cards such as Bank), you could play all your Treasures before you play a Poor House, and suddenly a card that costs $1 is better than a Gold. A Copper and two Poor Houses, played in that order, could buy you a Province, so if you opened $5/$2 and your opponent didn’t, it could be a very short game.
(Suddenly I have the Smarties theme song in my head: “When you play your Treasures do you play the Poor House last?”) ;D
It’s one of those massive game-changers where I’m not sure if it’s going to be really fun or just broken and OP, haha.
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Teacher is affected by Capitalism. The same question came up for Dominion Online and Donald answered affirmative.
Well, crap. It doesn't even stop at the education system!
Surprised? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mf3uKTdozfA&t=1m0s) (only click if you have tolerance for out of key sung political diatribe in German).
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Is the rule that Capitalism intends to simply look for any instance of "+(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/6/6d/Coin.png/16px-Coin.png)" in the text?
This is not so much a rule as exactly what the Capitalism card-shaped object says in its text.
Well not quite, it says it looks for "+(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/6/6d/Coin.png/16px-Coin.png) amounts". It's reasonable to interpret the "+(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/f/f7/Coin1.png/16px-Coin1.png) token" as simply a name of a token rather than being an "amount".
There was some debate. I agree that the ruling is not obvious.
I agree with GendoIkari here (that said, I am relatively new to the forums).
"+(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/6/6d/Coin.png/16px-Coin.png) amounts" semantically means: (optionally) produces money you can use this turn; Teacher doesn't do that. It specifically refers to a token, that happens to be called the +(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/f/f7/Coin1.png/16px-Coin1.png) token.
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Wouldn’t teacher realistically be giving you +1 coffers now that the lingo has changed?
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Wouldn’t teacher realistically be giving you +1 coffers now that the lingo has changed?
+1 coffers replaced “take a coin token”. It does not replace “put your +$1 token on a pile”. Teacher does nothing with coffers (coin tokens).
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Well, you better hope that no foreign translation of Dominion made Coppersmith have Coppers produce "+$1" or called the "+$1" token just the "$1" token...
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Does capitalism always make city a treasure? Or only once 2 piles are empty?
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Does capitalism always make city a treasure? Or only once 2 piles are empty?
It's always a treasure.
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Does capitalism always make city a treasure? Or only once 2 piles are empty?
Yes, the card becomes a Treasure regardless of the circumstances. For example, you could play a Pawn in your buy phase for +1 Card and +1 Buy and not use the +$1. I’ve learned from playing Dominion Online that all Capitalism essentially does is let you play certain Action cards during your Buy phase.
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all Capitalism essentially does is let you play certain Action cards during your Buy phase.
That's not true, and potentially somewhat misleading. Capitalism makes those Action cards be Treasures for all purposes. You could buff them with Mine, duplicate them with Mint, discard them to Stables, gain them with Hero... whatever!
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That's not true, and potentially somewhat misleading. Capitalism makes those Action cards be Treasures for all purposes. You could buff them with Mine, duplicate them with Mint, discard them to Stables, gain them with Hero... whatever!
It even lets you play them twice with Crown!
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That's not true, and potentially somewhat misleading. Capitalism makes those Action cards be Treasures for all purposes. You could buff them with Mine, duplicate them with Mint, discard them to Stables, gain them with Hero... whatever!
That's a good point. I shouldn't have been so hasty with my oversimplification there. Capitalism can actually get really complicated when, for example, you play a Black Market as a Treasure with Storyteller, play a bunch of other treasures for your Black Market selection, then try to figure out how many cards Storyteller should officially let you draw. ;D
It even lets you play them twice with Crown!
Nice. :)
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I LOVE the idea of the Capitalism Project, but I have so many questions about its execution that don’t seem to be answered in the rule book.
1. Does it add the Treasure type to an Action card (that would of course affect things like Courtier or Inheritance acting on Action cards) or replace its type, or is it merely played as a Treasure while retaining its type of Action?
2. Can this Project be used on conditional +$__ cards like Minion or Pawn? Or can it only be ones like Market that give you the +$__ no matter what?
3. I assume the other effects of the card don’t get played—because if they did, a Monument becomes a Plunder for $1 cheaper—but what happens to cards like Goons which have text below the line that affect what happens when it’s played?
1) It adds the type. You play it as a Treasure - Action.
2) It works on Minon and Pawn.
3) The other effects of the card do get played and Monument becomes a Plunder for $1 cheaper, and Goons also does its below-the-line effect.
hey, i know this is late but im still wondering what you mean by treasure-action. when we played we had a debate on whether or not capitalism allows one to utilize the perk in the action. so for example, if my friend has capitalism, does that mean during the buy phase and my friend has 6 mountebanks, does that mean my friend can use all 6 mountbanks as if they were used in the action phase? meaning not only will they have 12 coppers gained from the 6 mountebanks, but also give each player 6 curses and coppers, just like during the action phase.
any clarification would be great. thanks
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I LOVE the idea of the Capitalism Project, but I have so many questions about its execution that don’t seem to be answered in the rule book.
1. Does it add the Treasure type to an Action card (that would of course affect things like Courtier or Inheritance acting on Action cards) or replace its type, or is it merely played as a Treasure while retaining its type of Action?
2. Can this Project be used on conditional +$__ cards like Minion or Pawn? Or can it only be ones like Market that give you the +$__ no matter what?
3. I assume the other effects of the card don’t get played—because if they did, a Monument becomes a Plunder for $1 cheaper—but what happens to cards like Goons which have text below the line that affect what happens when it’s played?
1) It adds the type. You play it as a Treasure - Action.
2) It works on Minon and Pawn.
3) The other effects of the card do get played and Monument becomes a Plunder for $1 cheaper, and Goons also does its below-the-line effect.
hey, i know this is late but im still wondering what you mean by treasure-action. when we played we had a debate on whether or not capitalism allows one to utilize the perk in the action. so for example, if my friend has capitalism, does that mean during the buy phase and my friend has 6 mountebanks, does that mean my friend can use all 6 mountbanks as if they were used in the action phase? meaning not only will they have 12 coppers gained from the 6 mountebanks, but also give each player 6 curses and coppers, just like during the action phase.
any clarification would be great. thanks
1. You still play the Mountebanks, so they do everything they would normally do.
2. Playing a card that gives you +(Coin Symbol) does not make you gain Coppers or any other Treasures. It increases the amount you can spend that turn. You might want to read up on that.
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hey, i know this is late but im still wondering what you mean by treasure-action. when we played we had a debate on whether or not capitalism allows one to utilize the perk in the action. so for example, if my friend has capitalism, does that mean during the buy phase and my friend has 6 mountebanks, does that mean my friend can use all 6 mountbanks as if they were used in the action phase? meaning not only will they have 12 coppers gained from the 6 mountebanks, but also give each player 6 curses and coppers, just like during the action phase.
any clarification would be great. thanks
You can’t play a card in the Action phase and then again in the Buy phase, but when you keep it until the buy phase and use it as a Treasure because you’ve bought Capitalism, then yes, all of its other effects activate.
In your example, if you had Capitalism activated, you could play all six Mountebanks in your buy phase (as Treasures), and the cursing would happen 6 times as well.
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hey, i know this is late but im still wondering what you mean by treasure-action. when we played we had a debate on whether or not capitalism allows one to utilize the perk in the action. so for example, if my friend has capitalism, does that mean during the buy phase and my friend has 6 mountebanks, does that mean my friend can use all 6 mountbanks as if they were used in the action phase? meaning not only will they have 12 coppers gained from the 6 mountebanks, but also give each player 6 curses and coppers, just like during the action phase.
any clarification would be great. thanks
You can’t play a card in the Action phase and then again in the Buy phase, but when you keep it until the buy phase and use it as a Treasure because you’ve bought Capitalism, then yes, all of its other effects activate.
In your example, if you had Capitalism activated, you could play all six Mountebanks in your buy phase (as Treasures), and the cursing would happen 6 times as well.
Regardless of what phase you play them in, you always play them as Action - Treasures. Playing an Action - Treasure in the Action phase costs an action, but playing an Action - Treasure in the buy phase doesn't, that's the only difference.
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hey, i know this is late but im still wondering what you mean by treasure-action. when we played we had a debate on whether or not capitalism allows one to utilize the perk in the action. so for example, if my friend has capitalism, does that mean during the buy phase and my friend has 6 mountebanks, does that mean my friend can use all 6 mountbanks as if they were used in the action phase? meaning not only will they have 12 coppers gained from the 6 mountebanks, but also give each player 6 curses and coppers, just like during the action phase.
any clarification would be great. thanks
You can’t play a card in the Action phase and then again in the Buy phase, but when you keep it until the buy phase and use it as a Treasure because you’ve bought Capitalism, then yes, all of its other effects activate.
In your example, if you had Capitalism activated, you could play all six Mountebanks in your buy phase (as Treasures), and the cursing would happen 6 times as well.
yea thats exactly what my friend was doing, keeping the mountebanks until the buy phase to use as action treasures. the rest of us playing just thoight tjat couldnt possibly be the rules, but i guess it is. its just brutally op.
Thanks!
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It’s actually not quite as OP as it sounds, though it does bend the game enough to be really fun.
The main difference between Capitalism and no Capitalism is that you can play more of certain types of Action cards in your turns. Either way you still have to buy all the cards to play, so the effect isn’t all that massive. Also, it isn’t an ability like an Artifact that only one person could get; it’s relatively cheap so anyone can buy it.
Granted, there are some cards that become significantly more powerful with Capitalism (Poor House springs to mind, since you can play it after your treasures and get $4 for $1), but much of the time, the only effect is being able to play more Action cards.
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yea thats exactly what my friend was doing, keeping the mountebanks until the buy phase to use as action treasures. the rest of us playing just thoight tjat couldnt possibly be the rules, but i guess it is. its just brutally op.
Thanks!
Well, it's not really that OP. You could have bought a couple of Mountebanks and emptied the Curse pile into their deck before it got to that point.
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hey, i know this is late but im still wondering what you mean by treasure-action. when we played we had a debate on whether or not capitalism allows one to utilize the perk in the action. so for example, if my friend has capitalism, does that mean during the buy phase and my friend has 6 mountebanks, does that mean my friend can use all 6 mountbanks as if they were used in the action phase? meaning not only will they have 12 coppers gained from the 6 mountebanks, but also give each player 6 curses and coppers, just like during the action phase.
any clarification would be great. thanks
You can’t play a card in the Action phase and then again in the Buy phase, but when you keep it until the buy phase and use it as a Treasure because you’ve bought Capitalism, then yes, all of its other effects activate.
In your example, if you had Capitalism activated, you could play all six Mountebanks in your buy phase (as Treasures), and the cursing would happen 6 times as well.
yea thats exactly what my friend was doing, keeping the mountebanks until the buy phase to use as action treasures. the rest of us playing just thoight tjat couldnt possibly be the rules, but i guess it is. its just brutally op.
Thanks!
The issue here is that Mountebank is OP even in its normal form.
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Well, it's not really that OP. You could have bought a couple of Mountebanks and emptied the Curse pile into their deck before it got to that point.
There was that one KC-Mountebank game where I was the only player who seemed to realise how brutal Mountebank was. I emptied the Copper pile into other players' decks as well before they three-piled on Estates in desperation before I'd finished buying all the Provinces.
Chapel was in the Kingdom; they thought Chapel would comfortably counter KC-Mountebank; they were wrong.
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Well, it's not really that OP. You could have bought a couple of Mountebanks and emptied the Curse pile into their deck before it got to that point.
There was that one KC-Mountebank game where I was the only player who seemed to realise how brutal Mountebank was. I emptied the Copper pile into other players' decks as well before they three-piled on Estates in desperation before I'd finished buying all the Provinces.
Chapel was in the Kingdom; they thought Chapel would comfortably counter KC-Mountebank; they were wrong.
Cool game report.