Dominion Strategy Forum
Archive => Archive => Dominion: Renaissance Previews => Topic started by: SuperHans on November 05, 2018, 01:27:56 pm
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What are your thoughts about the new cards?
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Cards that stand out:
Border Guard- I think this is going to be a really powerful card b/c already it's a nerved laboratory for 2$ and you could potentially upgrade it with the artifacts to act like an alchemist without the potions to keep it going every turn.
Cargo ship- I think probably the strongest 3$ duration card I've seen. I think this is gonna be a really good opener. The fact that your more likely to get 5$ card and pass it on in addition to your hand is killer even in the mid/late-game. Granted it doesn't really help to have more than one out unless you have lots of money and buys that turn, but yeah I really like this one.
Hideout- I could see this being the next wandering minstrel, I would probably even consider trashing the estates knowing the I could easily trash the curses with these later on after flooding my deck with terminal draws. But it's interesting that it seems like one of those cards you don't want open up with until right after your openings. definitely prefer this card over junk dealer.
Research- This is a really cool variant for tactician/apprentice. I think this duration has a lot of potential, but it may depend on number of gain/buys your capable of per game to feed into this cards. cards for silver flooding like trader, masterpiece, etc; would combo really nicely in a colonies game.
Sceptor-At first I was really disappointed with Sceptor cause it seemed like a weaker copy of Royal Crown; that's until I realized that this combos with actions a lot better in that even if you've used all your actions in your deck you can still throom room played actions. So I can see this working well with terminal draws and yeah this one peaked my interest the more I thought about it.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-GUKQoOy9s
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Border Guard- I think this is going to be a really powerful card b/c already it's a nerved laboratory for 2$ and you could potentially upgrade it with the artifacts to act like an alchemist without the potions to keep it going every turn.
You misread the card. Border Guard never draws more than 1 card.
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Border Guard- I think this is going to be a really powerful card b/c already it's a nerved laboratory for 2$ and you could potentially upgrade it with the artifacts to act like an alchemist without the potions to keep it going every turn.
You misread the card. Border Guard never draws more than 1 card.
Oh no I get that. But what I'm saying is for a 2$ card as opposed to getting lab for 5$ it's pretty good. Especially, when you can upgrade it with the artifacts and spam them every turn potentially. But yeah I compared it to lab cause they can both cycle through 2 cards and yeah lab gets the 2 cards but I would rather have 3 border guards than 1 lab to cycle through the deck.
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My initial impression of Cargo Ship was that it was weak. It seems comparable to Tracker, but a bit better in the opening because the extra money makes it easier to hit $5.
Hideout looks game-warping. A cantrip trasher for $4 is already amazing. And the fact that it's a village means engines go up really quick. The curse-gaining looks like an important balancing effect, because at first you can only trash down by trashing copper, and in the late game you can buy Estates to feed your Hideouts.
Inventor looks crazy in the same way that Bridge does. But after thinking about it, it doesn't have quite the same megaturn potential. 5 bridges and $7 in treasure gives you 4 provinces; 5 Inventors and $7 in treasure gives you only 2 provinces and a bunch of components. It might be better for building, worse for scoring.
Although there's a lot of focus on the weird interactions and combos with Capitalism, I think it's a solid project even without them. Just consider Capitalism + Monument, it's probably good. Payload cards were underappreciated Lost Arts targets, because they were overshadowed by Lost Arts on terminal draw.
Cathedral resembles some of my speculation from weeks ago, but I'm surprised that there's no protection against discard attacks. Right now it's tough to judge when the appropriate time to buy this is, but it's punishing enough that I'm sure it will become clear in time.
In general, I'm very pleased with the use of the villagers effect. They're a finite resource, contingent on gaining or trashing a card, or on playing a terminal action. If Coffers are a tradeoff between flexibility and raw strength, then Villagers are a tradeoff between reliability and longevity.
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Border Guard- I think this is going to be a really powerful card b/c already it's a nerved laboratory for 2$ and you could potentially upgrade it with the artifacts to act like an alchemist without the potions to keep it going every turn.
You misread the card. Border Guard never draws more than 1 card.
Oh no I get that. But what I'm saying is for a 2$ card as opposed to getting lab for 5$ it's pretty good. Especially, when you can upgrade it with the artifacts and spam them every turn potentially. But yeah I compared it to lab cause they can both cycle through 2 cards and yeah lab gets the 2 cards but I would rather have 3 border guards than 1 lab to cycle through the deck.
In a game with junkers and without trashers your notion has merit (but even then handsifters like Dungeon or Warehouse are probably preferable to Border Guard) whereas in a decently thinned deck you want to increase your draw power.
If you compare it with other $2s it is pretty decent though. Conditional Labs like Patrician or Vagrant often miss whereas Border Guard does something mildly useful on each play.
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I understand the nerfed lab comparison. It's more like a nerfed Fugitive, but Fugitive is already a nerfed lab; so it's like a double-nerfed lab.
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Border Guard- I think this is going to be a really powerful card b/c already it's a nerved laboratory for 2$ and you could potentially upgrade it with the artifacts to act like an alchemist without the potions to keep it going every turn.
You misread the card. Border Guard never draws more than 1 card.
Oh no I get that. But what I'm saying is for a 2$ card as opposed to getting lab for 5$ it's pretty good. Especially, when you can upgrade it with the artifacts and spam them every turn potentially. But yeah I compared it to lab cause they can both cycle through 2 cards and yeah lab gets the 2 cards but I would rather have 3 border guards than 1 lab to cycle through the deck.
Remember that Horn only lets you topdeck one Border Guard each turn, though. Not all of them.
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I understand the nerfed lab comparison. It's more like a nerfed Fugitive, but Fugitive is already a nerfed lab; so it's like a double-nerfed lab.
Apples, oranges and cherries.
Lab is +1 Card.
Fugitive is +1 Card and discard a card.
Border Guard is a Spy variant, i.e. it is a cantrip that sifts through one or two cards from the top of the deck (and not your hand) before it draws.
By the way, that "double-nerfed Lab" would be Dungeon (on the turn you play it).
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I understand the nerfed lab comparison. It's more like a nerfed Fugitive, but Fugitive is already a nerfed lab; so it's like a double-nerfed lab.
Apples, oranges and cherries.
Lab is +1 Card.
Fugitive is +1 Card and discard a card.
Border Guard is a Spy variant, i.e. it is a cantrip that sifts through one or two cards from the top of the deck (and not your hand) before it draws.
By the way, that "double-nerfed Lab" would be Dungeon (on the turn you play it).
I've always thought of "+1 card, discard a card" as a nerfed "+1 card". And Border Guard could be re-worded "+2 cards, +1 action. Discard one of the 2 newly drawn cards" (tracking/accountability issues aside).
Yes, Border Guard probably plays closer to Spy, but I don't think that makes the comparison invalid.
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I just don't see the supposed commonality of non-terminal draw and sifters.
Even among sifters hand- and decksifting do something significantly different from each other. It is nice when you can cycle faster with Ironmonger but it is in no way a substitute for the job that something like Dungeon or Warehouse do.
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Well one big difference is that Oasis, Warehouse, and Dungeon all reduce your handsize, while Fugitive and Border Guard do not. This means that Fugitive, Forum, and Border Guard can allow you to draw your deck; although you can't keep your whole deck in your hand at once.
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Border Guard- I think this is going to be a really powerful card b/c already it's a nerved laboratory for 2$ and you could potentially upgrade it with the artifacts to act like an alchemist without the potions to keep it going every turn.
You misread the card. Border Guard never draws more than 1 card.
Oh no I get that. But what I'm saying is for a 2$ card as opposed to getting lab for 5$ it's pretty good. Especially, when you can upgrade it with the artifacts and spam them every turn potentially. But yeah I compared it to lab cause they can both cycle through 2 cards and yeah lab gets the 2 cards but I would rather have 3 border guards than 1 lab to cycle through the deck.
Remember that Horn only lets you top deck one Border Guard each turn, though. Not all of them.
Arrrgh I didn't catch that you can only top deck one....okay so maybe it is a tad bit weaker than I initially thought, but I still think it's pretty powerful. I mean think about it, if you buy 2 or 3 border guards your opponent will either stall time to buy border guards to keep the artifacts away from you or let you inevitably get the 2 artifacts (assuming you can flood your deck with actions) to sift through 6 to 9 cards rather than 4 to 6 cards with 2 or 3 labs. So in a way you can filter out your deck for the best cards rather than wasting turns trashing half your deck...as I did with this post ;D.
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Inventor looks crazy in the same way that Bridge does. But after thinking about it, it doesn't have quite the same megaturn potential. 5 bridges and $7 in treasure gives you 4 provinces; 5 Inventors and $7 in treasure gives you only 2 provinces and a bunch of components. It might be better for building, worse for scoring.
Going further, 7 Bridges and $1 treasure gets you 8 Provinces, 7 Inventors and $1 gets you only 4 Provinces. Not providing the coin/buy of Bridge is a huge loss.
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The cards I'm most intrigued by are Research and Inventor. I love Apprentice and Research is such an exciting variant. In my mind it seems as if it could be better than Apprentice if you rather want constistency than main draw. Inventor will just might be one of the most powerful 4:s here, used properly. Time will tell, but it looks fun.
Overall my first day with Renaissance have shown me one thing: I'm bad at Dominion, I'm very bad at Dominion. But I love the game nevertheless.
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Inventor looks crazy in the same way that Bridge does. But after thinking about it, it doesn't have quite the same megaturn potential. 5 bridges and $7 in treasure gives you 4 provinces; 5 Inventors and $7 in treasure gives you only 2 provinces and a bunch of components. It might be better for building, worse for scoring.
Going further, 7 Bridges and $1 treasure gets you 8 Provinces, 7 Inventors and $1 gets you only 4 Provinces. Not providing the coin/buy of Bridge is a huge loss.
It's not that Inventor is a bridge variant, but rather a workshop variant with an Highway built in. Rushes are going to be much easier I could imagine, more than megaturns.
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Arrrgh I didn't catch that you can only top deck one....okay so maybe it is a tad bit weaker than I initially thought, but I still think it's pretty powerful.
Spy was never powerful. If you allow it to spy before it draws, self-Scheme and increase the sifting depth by 1 it doesn't become a powerhouse either but probably becomes comparable in strength with $3 sifters like Warehouse and Dungeon (although they are still better to increase the consistency of your engine and in junking-intense games).
Best way to read it is as one of those $2 cantrips with a little extra.
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Inventor looks crazy in the same way that Bridge does. But after thinking about it, it doesn't have quite the same megaturn potential. 5 bridges and $7 in treasure gives you 4 provinces; 5 Inventors and $7 in treasure gives you only 2 provinces and a bunch of components. It might be better for building, worse for scoring.
Going further, 7 Bridges and $1 treasure gets you 8 Provinces, 7 Inventors and $1 gets you only 4 Provinces. Not providing the coin/buy of Bridge is a huge loss.
It's not that Inventor is a bridge variant, but rather a workshop variant with an Highway built in. Rushes are going to be much easier I could imagine, more than megaturns.
Inventor is still pretty crazy for megaturns. You're probably behind in Provinces by the time you get any megaturn going anyway, and Inventor gains Duchies.
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Cathedral, a Short Story By Robz888
Me: Why, thank you, Cathedral! Such a good trasher.
Cathedral: ...
Me: Wow, you are fast. I hardly have any junk left!
Cathedral: ...
Me: Slow down, Cathedral! Have you ever heard of too much of a good thing?
Cathedral: ...
Me: This has gone too far.
Cathedral: ...
Me: Not my Silvers, are you mad?!
Cathedral: ...
Me: This will not do at all.
Cathedral: ...
Me: I just trashed a $4 Action, is your lust sated now, Cathedral?
Cathedral: ...
Me: I suppose you want my Treasuries as well. Fine.
Cathedral: ...
Me: Excuse me, this hand was Milita'd, it's not subject to your capricious whims. [Checks notes] You MONSTER!
Cathedral: ...
Me: Rats are a thing, you know. As is Hireling. I'll beat you, just wait and NOOOOO NOT MY SCHEMED ACTIONS
Cathedral: ... 8)
THE END
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Cathedral + Fortress could be a thing.
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Scepter looks like one of the weakest throne room variants (except Ghost), but it has a very nice interaction with draw-to-X. Scepter + Scholar could be an engine all on its own. Scepter + Jack might be good. Scepter + Tactician... well that's funny, you can play the same tactician every turn, but the Scepters stay in play until you stop.
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Cathedral, a Short Story By Robz888
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Hideout can be a similar story. You can always stop playing your junk dealers, but if Hideout is the only village, that forced trashing turns into a serious drawback after awhile.
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Scepter looks like one of the weakest throne room variants (except Ghost), but it has a very nice interaction with draw-to-X. Scepter + Scholar could be an engine all on its own. Scepter + Jack might be good. Scepter + Tactician... well that's funny, you can play the same tactician every turn, but the Scepters stay in play until you stop.
I think Scepter is one of the strongest Throne Room variants. You can use multiple Scepters on the same target, you can use it on a target that you played way earlier on your turn, it lets you play Actions after you've played Treasures for some neat tricks sometimes, you can't draw it dead, and if you draw it without a target, it's still +$2. It introduces some restrictions that other Thrones don't have, but it also has some unique strengths, and it also has the strength that used to be unique to Royal Carriage.
You can even play strategies that are basically engine/big money hybrids with Scepter because of how resilient it is against unlucky draws. Scepter + Scholar is an obvious example that works super well.
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Scepter looks like one of the weakest throne room variants (except Ghost), but it has a very nice interaction with draw-to-X. Scepter + Scholar could be an engine all on its own. Scepter + Jack might be good. Scepter + Tactician... well that's funny, you can play the same tactician every turn, but the Scepters stay in play until you stop.
I think Scepter is one of the strongest Throne Room variants. You can use multiple Scepters on the same target, you can use it on a target that you played way earlier on your turn, it lets you play Actions after you've played Treasures for some neat tricks sometimes, you can't draw it dead, and if you draw it without a target, it's still +$2. It introduces some restrictions that other Thrones don't have, but it also has some unique strengths, and it also has the strength that used to be unique to Royal Carriage.
You can even play strategies that are basically engine/big money hybrids with Scepter because of how resilient it is against unlucky draws. Scepter + Scholar is an obvious example that works super well.
I see your point. Scepter + Scholar looks very strong, but even Scepter + Smithy is quite good. Throne Room + Smithy needs three cards in your starting hand to kick off, but Scepter + Smithy only needs one.
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Cathedral + Fortress could be a thing.
It's is. My first game with Cathédrale was with Fortress and Rogue. It was supreme.
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Hideout is not as insane as it looks. The fact that it's a mandatory trasher really hurts; once you've trashed down your deck, you also can't use it as a Village reliably anymore. Cantrip trashing is still nice, and it mitigates terminal collision in the first few shuffles, but you really have to jump through hoops (massive Copper gaining, for example) to use it as the only Village in your engine.
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Scepter + Tactician... well that's funny, you can play the same tactician every turn, but the Scepters stay in play until you stop.
Scepter says "played this turn," so you can't choose Tactician on the duration turn.
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my first impressions in a video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IR7IhJTXF7Y
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My first impressions video, having not seen the cards beforehand:
https://youtube.com/watch?v=dUADpaRp5KA
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Am I the only person worried that jokes about "getting the Horn" will grow old quite quickly while playing Renaissance?
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Am I the only person worried that jokes about "getting the Horn" will grow old quite quickly while playing Renaissance?
This is not a phrase I'm familiar with, but I'm too scared to Google it.
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Kudos to Donald for creating so many interesting, yet simple cards. Stand-outs include: Cargo Ship, Hideout, Inventor, Mountain Village, Old Witch, Priest, Research, and Scholar.
If only he had a time machine to swap which sets Scholar and Library appear in!
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Am I the only person worried that jokes about "getting the Horn" will grow old quite quickly while playing Renaissance?
This is not a phrase I'm familiar with, but I'm too scared to Google it.
Well, I’ll help out. Horn is a word often used to describe a certain part of the body of a male creature, especially after said body part has been filled with blood. Was that family friendly enough?
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Am I the only person worried that jokes about "getting the Horn" will grow old quite quickly while playing Renaissance?
There were people who said I shouldn't call a card Ball. It worked out fine! No-one even blinked at Horn.
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Outside of that Futurama episode, I've never heard anyone use "horn" that way.
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Well Jimmy played harmonica in the pub where I was born
He played it from the night time to the peaceful early morn
He soothed the souls of psychos and the men who had the horn
And they all looked very happy in the morning
Pogues - Sally Maclennane
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If only he had a time machine to swap which sets Scholar and Library appear in!
NO! That would completely ruin my username and avatar. (It's bad enough that we no longer have a card called Adventurer. -Not that I liked the card. Just that we had a card with the name...)
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Outside of that Futurama episode, I've never heard anyone use "horn" that way.
It seems way more likely to have "Pikachu! The Horn!" Uttered to death in relation to Border Guard.
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Am I the only person worried that jokes about "getting the Horn" will grow old quite quickly while playing Renaissance?
This is not a phrase I'm familiar with, but I'm too scared to Google it.
I assume you know the term "horny"? Broadly, the horn is what people have when they're horny.
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Outside of that Futurama episode, I've never heard anyone use "horn" that way.
It's very Shakespearean, I remember coming across that particular double entendre in Taming of the Shrew in 9th grade.
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Cathedral, a Short Story By Robz888
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Me: Rats are a thing, you know. As is Hireling. I'll beat you, just wait and NOOOOO NOT MY SCHEMED ACTIONS
Cathedral: ... 8)
THE END
So I saw this as well and thought it was a brilliant balance of cost and long term possible problems. Works well with extra buys where you can add coppers easily.
What i do not like about this is that IRL plays mean that some players will forget that they *must* trash every turn and get by with turns they shouldn't have been able to do. Duration cards like this that require you to be paying attention to something that happened many turns ago or on someone else's turn [Haunted Woods, for example] seem to be difficult to manage in a real game. I would only play with such cards when someone has played 20-30 games of Dominion IRL before. There's a limited number of my friends who could do that :P
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Cathedral, a Short Story By Robz888
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Me: Rats are a thing, you know. As is Hireling. I'll beat you, just wait and NOOOOO NOT MY SCHEMED ACTIONS
Cathedral: ... 8)
THE END
So I saw this as well and thought it was a brilliant balance of cost and long term possible problems. Works well with extra buys where you can add coppers easily.
What i do not like about this is that IRL plays mean that some players will forget that they *must* trash every turn and get by with turns they shouldn't have been able to do. Duration cards like this that require you to be paying attention to something that happened many turns ago or on someone else's turn [Haunted Woods, for example] seem to be difficult to manage in a real game. I would only play with such cards when someone has played 20-30 games of Dominion IRL before. There's a limited number of my friends who could do that :P
Yes, that is the downside of increased complexity. I'm always trying to watch when other people are playing Spoils, for example, to make sure they are returned. Even with Artisan, I need to remind people that it isn't just "gain a card costing up to 5". But I'll take it, over sticking with only the most basic cards.
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Cathedral, a Short Story By Robz888
Speaking as someone who earlier today Princed a Trading Post with... mixed results, I'm so going to buy Cathedral at the first available opportunity!
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Cathedral, a Short Story By Robz888
Speaking as someone who earlier today Princed a Trading Post with... mixed results, I'm so going to buy Cathedral at the first available opportunity!
Just make sure you have some source of extra buys/gains available.
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My first impression of Cathedral is that it's pretty amazing. Yes, the mandatory trashing is a bit annoying late-game; it helps if you have extra +Buys and maybe something to topdeck your cards with, such as Royal Seal, Watchtower or Tracker. However, you can start trashing before your first shuffle (only few card-shaped things can manage that, including Bonfire and Goat), which more than makes up for it. Usually you don't need any other trashers if you have Cathedral, and you'll get your engine rolling quickly.
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The most recent time I played Renaissance games on ShiT, the approach I took with Cathedral was that I bought it turn 1 and then I took a look at the rest of the kingdom to decide what strategy I should go for. I regretted the Cathedral exactly 0 times out of several games it was in, and there was a game that my opponent resigned T1 because he had a 2/5, which was not entirely unreasonable.
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Is Cathedral worth buying on a board with no extra gains? Because buying it turn 1 means you'll always have a 10-or-fewer-card deck.
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Is Cathedral worth buying on a board with no extra gains? Because buying it turn 1 means you'll always have a 10-or-fewer-card deck.
Generally yes.
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Is Cathedral worth buying on a board with no extra gains? Because buying it turn 1 means you'll always have a 10-or-fewer-card deck.
Generally yes.
Really?
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Is Cathedral worth buying on a board with no extra gains? Because buying it turn 1 means you'll always have a 10-or-fewer-card deck.
Generally yes.
Really?
Wall
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Is Cathedral worth buying on a board with no extra gains? Because buying it turn 1 means you'll always have a 10-or-fewer-card deck.
Depends on the kingdom, but keep in mind that if there are junkers (extra gains, for your opponent!) not buying Cathedral may result in you having a large deck swamped with junk (and even with Cathedral you may end up at more than 10 cards).
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Is Cathedral worth buying on a board with no extra gains? Because buying it turn 1 means you'll always have a 10-or-fewer-card deck.
Depends on the kingdom, but keep in mind that if there are junkers (extra gains, for your opponent!) not buying Cathedral may result in you having a large deck swamped with junk (and even with Cathedral you may end up at more than 10 cards).
I think "no extra gains" implies that no junking will happen.
Maybe getting Cathedral on say turn 6 and maintaining a 15-card deck would work?
I wonder if buying a junker, prompting your opponent to buy Cathedral, and then never using your junker will be a thing.
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You can totally build a single-Province engine with 10 cards. I guess the only problem is that you will have to cannibalize engine parts after greening, but even then, it's possible.
The presence of Cathedral does weaken junking attacks to the extent that I probably wouldn't buy them.
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Is Cathedral worth buying on a board with no extra gains? Because buying it turn 1 means you'll always have a 10-or-fewer-card deck.
Generally yes.
Really?
The most recent time I played Renaissance games on ShiT, the approach I took with Cathedral was that I bought it turn 1 and then I took a look at the rest of the kingdom to decide what strategy I should go for. I regretted the Cathedral exactly 0 times out of several games it was in, and there was a game that my opponent resigned T1 because he had a 2/5, which was not entirely unreasonable.
This implies that I bought Cathedral without knowing whether or not there was any +buys or extra gains in the kingdom and never regretted it.
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Is Cathedral worth buying on a board with no extra gains? Because buying it turn 1 means you'll always have a 10-or-fewer-card deck.
Generally yes.
Really?
The most recent time I played Renaissance games on ShiT, the approach I took with Cathedral was that I bought it turn 1 and then I took a look at the rest of the kingdom to decide what strategy I should go for. I regretted the Cathedral exactly 0 times out of several games it was in, and there was a game that my opponent resigned T1 because he had a 2/5, which was not entirely unreasonable.
This implies that I bought Cathedral without knowing whether or not there was any +buys or extra gains in the kingdom and never regretted it.
But it doesn't tell us if you ever ended up in a game with no +buys or extra gains. And if you didn't, we don't know at all if you would have regretted it if you had.
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We got our physical copy of Dominion.
We played a game where the only "village" was Patron. We couldn't build an engine out of it, but it seemed really effective for BM+terminal draw. We realized that Patron eliminated the biggest drawback of terminal draw (drawing actions dead) since you could just spend a villager, play some cantrips, and get the villager back by ending with Patron.
I know I should have seen that coming, but this nonetheless surprised me. Terminal draw plus cantrips! A whole new type of deck!