Dominion Strategy Forum
Dominion => Dominion General Discussion => Topic started by: samath on September 30, 2018, 12:00:30 pm
-
Few things in Dominion are irreversible these days. People have even figured out ways to put split piles back in arbitrary orders (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=18802.0)!
However, one element of Dominion has always had more of a sense of finality to it: the trash. Once something is trashed, it's gone forever, right? That's at least how we explain the game to our friends -- discarding means you'll see it again, trash means you won't.
Of course, that's changed over the expansions, starting with Dark Ages. (Technically, Thief / Noble Brigand took treasures they stole out of the trash, but since they were only in the trash for a brief moment in the midst of resolving the card, we won't count that. I also won't count Fortress for the same reason.) Dark Ages introduced us to Graverobber and Rogue, which can all take cards of a specific price range ($3-$6) out of the trash. Of course, which cost reduction like Bridge and Highway, this meant that any cards costing $3-$11 (i.e. $3+ with no potions) could be retrieved from the trash.
Lurker provided the next big jump up: Now any action cards could be taken from the trash, including cheap ones (e.g. Ruins) and potion-cost ones.
And now finally, Treasurer has given us a way to get any Treasure out of the trash. Of course, this is the biggest deal for heirlooms like Magic Lamp and Haunted Mirror, which no longer are just single-use. But it's also now the first time we can take Coppers out of the trash!
This leaves us with only a small number of cards that cannot be taken out of the trash once they make it there. Here they are:
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/1/1a/EstateDigital.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/b/bd/CurseDigital.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/4/47/VineyardDigital.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/3/34/Overgrown_EstateDigital.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/a/ae/HovelDigital.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/a/a2/GuardianDigital.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/8/83/MonasteryDigital.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/2/20/Bat.jpg)
-
Of course, which cost reduction like Bridge and Highway, this meant that any cards costing $3-$11 (i.e. $3+ with no potions) could be retrieved from the trash.
It would be possible to retrieve cards costing much more than $11 from trash if they existed.
-
I remain surprised there's never been a cost increaser in Dominion. I mean, as an attack that stacked it would clearly suck majorly, but that's not the only thing which could be done with such a mechanic.
-
I remain surprised there's never been a cost increaser in Dominion. I mean, as an attack that stacked it would clearly suck majorly, but that's not the only thing which could be done with such a mechanic.
Another problem beyond stacking is also wording. It would have to be a Duration that is off during your turns and on during the opponents turns. That could be confusing.
-
I remain surprised there's never been a cost increaser in Dominion. I mean, as an attack that stacked it would clearly suck majorly, but that's not the only thing which could be done with such a mechanic.
I think this idea has been tried in testing, but has ultimately ended up as a variant on cost-increase such as Cutpurse or Bridge Troll.
(Source: secret history of Bridge troll)
-
Haunted Woods and Swamp Hag demonstrate that's possible. Clunky, but possible.
I can think of other options, but this isn't the variants subforum.
-
There's another big problem with cost increasers besides the stacking: Their effects would cancel out cost decreasers exactly, so if both types are on the board it would turn into an arms race that would ultimately go nowhere. I can't imagine that being very fun.
Bridge Troll's non-stacking -1 coin was the right way to do this. You could maybe do a non-stacking +1 cost token, but this usually wouldn't be much different.
-
I remain surprised there's never been a cost increaser in Dominion. I mean, as an attack that stacked it would clearly suck majorly, but that's not the only thing which could be done with such a mechanic.
I think this idea has been tried in testing, but has ultimately ended up as a variant on cost-increase such as Cutpurse or Bridge Troll.
(Source: secret history of Bridge troll)
Correct, it's been tried multiple times. It's been given plenty of chances to somehow produce a fun working card.
Some of the issues - stacking, timing vs. cost reduction - can be solved, but the solutions take words, and you end up with something too complex. There's no special beauty to doing it that has pushed it into existence despite that.
Punishing buys is okay and there's some of that, e.g. Embargo. Contraband and Delusion try out limiting buys. And Peddler gives you the positive side, where a card costs more for your Remodels.
-
I just hope Donald X. resists the temptation to do a special kind of "super trash"/"banish" etc.
-
Also, cost increases are really hard to remember for the purposes of card interactions; even more than cost reductions.
-
I just hope Donald X. resists the temptation to do a special kind of "super trash"/"banish" etc.
Island!
-
I just hope Donald X. resists the temptation to do a special kind of "super trash"/"banish" etc.
(http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=74231&type=card)
-
I remain surprised there's never been a cost increaser in Dominion. I mean, as an attack that stacked it would clearly suck majorly, but that's not the only thing which could be done with such a mechanic.
There's also a timing issue w/r/t cost reducers (which can't bring cost below zero).
If a card costs $1, and you play 2 bridges with an "anti-bridge" in effect, does the card cost $0 or $1? If the bridges resolve first, it costs $1, but if the anti-bridge resolves first then it costs $0.
-
Wouldn't Guardian now be untrashable because of capitalism from Renaissance making it a treasure.
-
Wouldn't Guardian now be untrashable because of capitalism from Renaissance making it a treasure.
Capitalism only affects Actions. Guardian is a Night-Duration card.
-
"Untrashing" this thread as there have been relevant changes
2019: Inheritance Erratta turns Estates into action cards even if you don't own them, thus they can be untrashed by Lurker
June 2022: Prosperity 2E introduced Charlatan. In games using that, Curse is a Treasure and can be taken from the trash by Treasurer
And most impactful
Decemebr 2022: Plunder introduced Shaman, which makes you gain any card from the trash, with no restriction on type or cost. So now every card that can be trashed can be untrashed
-
"Untrashing" this thread as there have been relevant changes
And most impactful
Decemebr 2022: Plunder introduced Shaman, which makes you gain any card from the trash, with no restriction on type or cost. So now every card that can be trashed can be untrashed
Not all, only with cost maximum 6
-
"Untrashing" this thread as there have been relevant changes
And most impactful
Decemebr 2022: Plunder introduced Shaman, which makes you gain any card from the trash, with no restriction on type or cost. So now every card that can be trashed can be untrashed
Not all, only with cost maximum 6
But you can have enough Bridge Trolls in play to reduce the cost sufficiently for all cards except Debt and Potion costs. The only such card that cannot be gained with either Lurker or Treasurer is Vineyard, making it the sole ununtrashable card.
-
Maybe Rising Sun will change this with debt and shadow!
-
Maybe Rising Sun will change this with debt and shadow!
In principle a card that allows you to retrieve Victory cards from the Trash would make this an empty list. Of course, it would be hard to make such a card interesting, since, unless you have trashing attacks, you're not likely to have useful Victory cards in the Trash to begin with, so Vineyard is likely to remain on this list even if new cards might get added to it with Rising Sun
-
Maybe Rising Sun will change this with debt and shadow!
In principle a card that allows you to retrieve Victory cards from the Trash would make this an empty list. Of course, it would be hard to make such a card interesting, since, unless you have trashing attacks, you're not likely to have useful Victory cards in the Trash to begin with, so Vineyard is likely to remain on this list even if new cards might get added to it with Rising Sun
could be a contest theme.
-
Lich provided untrashing of <= 6 cards a little before shaman