Dominion Strategy Forum
Archive => Archive => Dominion: Renaissance Previews => Topic started by: Donald X. on September 26, 2018, 03:00:05 am
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Coffers are like Villagers but for coins. Bam. Also Coffers appeared already in Guilds, though it wasn't called that until the later printing. It's money you can save for later. You can only cash in the tokens before buying cards; they make +$1 each. Guilds originally said "take a coin token"; this set says "+1 Coffers."
(https://i.imgur.com/aIplrfy.png)
Villain has +2 Coffers, there you go, it's that easy. It makes the other players discard something good, except early on they'll have Estates and later on Provinces. But you know, in the middle there, it demands a good card.
Ducat is the Coffers treasure. If you have a Copper in hand when you get it, it essentially upgrades the Copper into a kind of save-able Copper.
Silk Merchant spills out tokens both coming and going. You may even get use out of it in the middle.
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Is it just me or do Villain and Silk Merchant seem pretty weak?
Ducat is this close to being strictly better than Candlestick Maker and CSM is alright so I guess Ducat is at least alright.
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Ducat is this close to being strictly better than Candlestick Maker and CSM is alright so I guess Ducat is at least alright.
Moreover, it really is pretty much the same as Candlestick Maker. I'm slightly confused why this card exists. Maybe the Copper exchange thing is more useful than it looks.
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on of the usefull things about cm is the draw to x
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Is it just me or do Villain and Silk Merchant seem pretty weak?
Ducat is this close to being strictly better than Candlestick Maker and CSM is alright so I guess Ducat is at least alright.
Apart from that you actually cant use the coin token the turn you play Ducat? (Modulo the usual suspects)
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Villain seems a bit weak, I agree. It could get significantly better with cost reduction though. Silk Merchant is fine; +2 cards +1 buy seems okay for $3, and it basically costs $3 as it gives you a Coffers back, and then you get the Villager on top, which means that on a play of your choice this can be a Lab+
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Is it just me or do Villain and Silk Merchant seem pretty weak?
Ducat is this close to being strictly better than Candlestick Maker and CSM is alright so I guess Ducat is at least alright.
Apart from that you actually cant use the coin token the turn you play Ducat? (Modulo the usual suspects)
Ah, yes, that makes it significantly different.
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Is it just me or do Villain and Silk Merchant seem pretty weak?
You can interpret Silk Merchant as being, when you play it the first time, a Laboratory and a Market and afterwards +2 Card +1 Buy although the tokens do of course allow more flexibility.
So I don't think that it is weak. It also compares decently with Ranger's +2.5 Cards +1 Buy (yeah, I know that this is quite superficial and that Ranger is better than the average).
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Apart from that you actually cant use the coin token the turn you play Ducat? (Modulo the usual suspects)
I'm pretty sure you can. You can already spend coin tokens after playing your Treasures.
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My first impression is that Villain joins Tragic Hero in the party of cards that look weak next to another overpowered card (Tragic Hero:Margrave::Villain:Butcher). But really I think Butcher would be alright if it didn't have the trashing part, so I think Villain is alright.
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Those Silk Merchants are surprisingly well-suited for battle; you should definitely Recruit them.
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Slightly disappointing preview because I would have expected more creative uses of coin tokens (like we had with butcher and merchant guild).
Villain seems ok to me : in games with no fast trashing, it can hurt a lot in a hand with 3/4 coppers and no estates. This makes me think that with villain in the game, you may ocacasionnally want to trash coppers before estate.
The most important part of silk merchant seems to be the villager gaining. It will make gainers and trash for benefit better, I like the synergy potential there. But +2 cards is still sad and I guess too often you will skip the silk merchant and go straight for a +3 card draw instead.
I, too, dislike ducat for being too close (and stronger) than candlestick maker. Of course candlestick maker had the draw to x / conspirator / peddler / tokens synergy, but apart of that I think it's still pretty uncommon that you would take candlestick maker over ducat.
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Live reaction video is available soon.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6fCgtUnnzU
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[Insert joke about Making Fun and Ducats]. But actually, how do you pronounce that word?
I'm glad we're getting some +buy in the previews. I was getting a lot of games without it.
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Ducat is S-tier "easier to play in real life". Can't remember what else is S-tier off the top of my head.
EDIT: Probably anything with coffers. I've never owned Adventures online, so there's that.
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Is it just me or do Villain and Silk Merchant seem pretty weak?
Ducat is this close to being strictly better than Candlestick Maker and CSM is alright so I guess Ducat is at least alright.
Apart from that you actually cant use the coin token the turn you play Ducat? (Modulo the usual suspects)
I'm pretty sure you can.
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Ducats and Favors are now the coins of the realm.
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Ducat is S-tier "easier to play in real life".
Note that ShuffleIT now allows you to undo the "play all treasures" button without it asking your opponent for permission. A change specifically made with Ducat in mind.
I feel like anyone else can answer this kind of question, but yes, guys, hello, you can use the Ducat +1 Coffers the turn you play it, barring edge cases.
Ducats were actual Renaissance-era coins, and are not a reference to anyone who the person who took over Goko may have once picked to make online Dominion.
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Ducat is S-tier "easier to play in real life".
Note that ShuffleIT now allows you to undo the "play all treasures" button without it asking your opponent for permission. A change specifically made with Ducat in mind.
My mistake is that I tend to start buying before I play my tokens. A few more games and I'd probably be better.
EDIT: Oh right, because you might forget to withhold a Copper or two. Yeah, I screwed that up as well. Good move, ShuffleIT
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Sculptor->Ducat could be pretty good.
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Sculptor->Ducat could be pretty good.
You'd think that's what the Mint is for, but mostly they don't like each other that much...
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Sculptor->Ducat could be pretty good.
Seer/Ducat was pretty fun to play.
Sacrifice/Silk Merchant was also a fun synergy.
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But actually, how do you pronounce that word?
'dʌ.kət (DUH-cut). Classic English vowel reduction, taking all the fun out of words.
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Duact's Art looks like Lucky Coin.
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Silk Merchant looks great, I dunno why you guys are down on it.
In the opening, if your first hand is $4 it lets you buy another $4 cost card. You can play it T3 or T4 to get a clear deck leading into the second shuffle, and you have a Villager in case you dead draw your other $4. Even outside of that opening, it's cheap draw that you can gain nonterminally with any Workshop variant, it's good Remake fuel, etc.
Ducat seems fine. Sometimes you want a Candlestick Maker, but you would prefer to be able to dead draw it. Or there's the copper thing. You probably buy it over Silver at some point in big money (after the first or second? I dunno).
Villain sure is a card.
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it's good Remake fuel, etc.
doesn't being good fuel mean that it's a bad card?
EDIT: grammar mistake
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I'm glad there are two +Buys here. Preview games have been pretty light on them the past few days.
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it's good Remake fuel, etc.
doesn't being good fuel means that it's a bad card?
How can getting a gift when you trash a card like with Overgrown Estate, Cultist, Catacombs, Hunting Grounds (this is the only controversial one, when Hunting Grounds is trashed by a trashing attack you might not want the Duchy yet) and now Silk Merchant be a bad thing?
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it's good Remake fuel, etc.
doesn't being good fuel means that it's a bad card?
How can getting a gift when you trash a card like with Overgrown Estate, Cultist, Catacombs, Hunting Grounds (this is the only controversial one, when Hunting Grounds is trashed by a trashing attack you might not want the Duchy yet) and now Silk Merchant be a bad thing?
I think he meant that calling something "good fuel" tends to imply you don't actually want to keep it, but yes, the on trashing benefit nullifies that implication to some extent.
Donald, you are a master of suspense. I have been on the edge of my seat for three days, and will be for two more. Thanks for another interesting expansion!
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I agree with Chris is me on the worth of Silk Merchant. I have decent expectations for the card. Early on maybe the +2 cards doesn't end up conflicting with another terminal, and you have the Coffers token to hit a high price point after the draw. In fact, a Silk Merchant / Silver opening guarantees hitting $5 before the second reshuffle, and I'm sure many other Silk Merchant openings do as well.
Being a treasure possibly makes Ducat distinct enough from Candlestick maker, depending on the rest of the set. Typically you don't get too many Candlestick Makers unless there is a synergy with it somewhere (e.g. draw to X). I Imagine Ducat will be similar, though the Copper trashing on gain is neat.
Villain reminds me of Raider. The attack can be weak a lot of the time, but it can pack a punch at the right moment while producing decent economy.
Edit: Silk Merchant also lets you open with another 4-cost if you get it for $4 Turn One.
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Today's previews video is up! Games with kaminarizumu, commentary (let's call it... interesting) by a variety of folks including Donald X. Also a complete misreading, and mispronunciation, of Ducat at first glance.
https://youtu.be/hbTmI5hca-Y
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it's good Remake fuel, etc.
doesn't being good fuel means that it's a bad card?
A card with on-gain effect naturally has less to offer during its active phase. This one has an on-trash effect to boot. Of cause all three effects have to be weighed in total against their cost.
Also, there are the games where it will be grudgingly kept as the only source of +Buy. Like Skulk. During their active phase, I'd prefer Silk Merchant to Skulk.
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I adore that the art for Villain is Jaime Lannister lounging on the Iron Throne.
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Procession and Silk Merchant will be a good combo.
I don't think SM is a power card, but I do think people are somewhat underrating the on-gain effect. If you open 4/3, you can grab a SM and a second 4-cost card on turn 2.
Also, if you purchase SM and a second terminal for your opening moves, you do not have to worry about them colliding, or the SM drawing the other terminal, because you will have that villager. Good flexibility in the early game.
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I don't think SM is a power card, but I do think people are somewhat underrating the on-gain effect. If you open 4/3, you can grab a SM and a second 4-cost card on turn 2.
Yeah, but that's just the Nomad Camp thing all over again. You can open Nomad Camp/another $4 cost card, but if you do, you just essentially opened with Woodcutter/$4 cost card, which is just a regular 3/4 opening where the $3 is particularly weak.
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I just had a game where I trashed catacombs with stonemason, to get 3 silk merchants for the 3 +actions I absolutely needed for my winning end game turn. Very satisfying.
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I realize that the attack effect of Villain is weak, but we have other attacks that are also weak and still have their uses, such as Cutpurse. A lot of people, such as my wife, are not big fans of the stronger attacks. This one I think they will like because it is an attack that will sometimes hurt, but not be too mean. And, of course, you also get the 2 coffers.
I play predominantly IRL with more casual gamers who don’t like a lot of “take that”. For us, I think it will be a card that will not be the most popular card on the board, but having those 2 coffers when you need them to push your money up enough to buy a Province or Colony where you drew a lot of green will be useful. And you get a little bit of an attack that could mess up someone’s hand at a critical time.
I think it’s biggest weakness will be its price point. There are likely to be too many other 5’s in the game that are more attractive. For the casual gamers and those with less experience with Dominion, I think this is going to be a great expansion to introduce to them right away.
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I don't think SM is a power card, but I do think people are somewhat underrating the on-gain effect. If you open 4/3, you can grab a SM and a second 4-cost card on turn 2.
Yeah, but that's just the Nomad Camp thing all over again. You can open Nomad Camp/another $4 cost card, but if you do, you just essentially opened with Woodcutter/$4 cost card, which is just a regular 3/4 opening where the $3 is particularly weak.
I'd say +2 Cards, +1 Buy, on-gain Villager, and more stuff if you trash it adds up to quite a bit more than what Woodcutter has to offer for $3.
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I don't think SM is a power card, but I do think people are somewhat underrating the on-gain effect. If you open 4/3, you can grab a SM and a second 4-cost card on turn 2.
Yeah, but that's just the Nomad Camp thing all over again. You can open Nomad Camp/another $4 cost card, but if you do, you just essentially opened with Woodcutter/$4 cost card, which is just a regular 3/4 opening where the $3 is particularly weak.
I'd say +2 Cards, +1 Buy, on-gain Villager, and more stuff if you trash it adds up to quite a bit more than what Woodcutter has to offer for $3.
Maybe the on-gain Villager is what makes it worthwhile, but +2 cards +1 buy is not really any better than what Woodcutter has to offer.
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I wonder...
If you have a Watchtower in hand and Spice Merchant in the supply, is a $4 buy for 2 coin tokens and 2 Villagers a good deal?
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+cards +buy is usually a strong effect. Wharf, Margrave, Council Room, Tragic Hero, Ranger--even the weaker ones of the bunch are pretty okay. You're probably sad if Silk Merchant is your only draw, or worse, if it's your only village. But if you need +buy, Silk Merchant is there for you.
And that's not even talking about the on-gain effect, which seems particularly good in the opener. Usually I don't like to get terminal-draw/terminal in the opener because collision rates are so high.
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And that's not even talking about the on-gain effect, which seems particularly good in the opener. Usually I don't like to get terminal-draw/terminal in the opener because collision rates are so high.
Also opening together with a non-terminal card is much nicer if you have that Villager for emergencies: you wouldn't want to open Smithy with Page, but Silk Merchant with Page seems ok.
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I don't think SM is a power card, but I do think people are somewhat underrating the on-gain effect. If you open 4/3, you can grab a SM and a second 4-cost card on turn 2.
Yeah, but that's just the Nomad Camp thing all over again. You can open Nomad Camp/another $4 cost card, but if you do, you just essentially opened with Woodcutter/$4 cost card, which is just a regular 3/4 opening where the $3 is particularly weak.
I'd say +2 Cards, +1 Buy, on-gain Villager, and more stuff if you trash it adds up to quite a bit more than what Woodcutter has to offer for $3.
Maybe the on-gain Villager is what makes it worthwhile, but +2 cards +1 buy is not really any better than what Woodcutter has to offer.
+2 cards +1 buy is Moat with +buy, similar to how Tragic Hero is Smithy with +buy (and a conditional self-trash effect). Early on, Moat is not great, and neither is Moat with +buy. Now Silk Merchant is quite good for its cycling as an opener so long and you have villagers, but once you spend your villagers it is a big liability until you get more villages or Villagers.
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But actually, how do you pronounce that word?
'dʌ.kət (DUH-cut). Classic English vowel reduction, taking all the fun out of words.
Yeah I'm going to go with Dew-Kat
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I wonder...
If you have a Watchtower in hand and Spice Merchant in the supply, is a $4 buy for 2 coin tokens and 2 Villagers a good deal?
Spice Tower
Event - $4
Gain 2 Coffers and 2 Villagers
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I don't think SM is a power card, but I do think people are somewhat underrating the on-gain effect. If you open 4/3, you can grab a SM and a second 4-cost card on turn 2.
Yeah, but that's just the Nomad Camp thing all over again. You can open Nomad Camp/another $4 cost card, but if you do, you just essentially opened with Woodcutter/$4 cost card, which is just a regular 3/4 opening where the $3 is particularly weak.
It's particularly good when there is a TfB available, especially one that costs 4 or less such as Procession or Remake.
For example:
Turn 1: SM
Turn 2: Procession
Turn 3: Procession the SM. Now you have a $5 card, $5-8 to spend this turn (4-7 copper and the coffer), and two villagers. You're also shuffling your discard pile for Turn 4.
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I always have trouble keeping Spice Merchant (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Spice_Merchant) and Silk Road (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Silk_Road) straight in terms of the names. Silk Merchant (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Silk_Merchant) will help a lot. ;D
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Also, even though the spelling is different, I will never read "Ducat" without picturing this:
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/d9/ad/c5/d9adc534fa0c4b3330a10b47c429c088.jpg)
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Hey, it could be worse: we could also have Merchant, Merchant Guild, Highway, Trade Route, Trade, Trader, Horse Traders and Trading Post.
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I always have trouble keeping Spice Merchant (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Spice_Merchant) and Silk Road (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Silk_Road) straight in terms of the names. Silk Merchant (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Silk_Merchant) will help a lot. ;D
Try playing a game with Merchant, Wine Merchant, Spice Merchant, Silk Merchant, Silk Road, Merchant Guild, and Merchant Ship.
Edit: crj beat me to it
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I always have trouble keeping Spice Merchant (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Spice_Merchant) and Silk Road (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Silk_Road) straight in terms of the names. Silk Merchant (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Silk_Merchant) will help a lot. ;D
Silk Merchant is the second card from this expansion where I've read the name and thought "I swear that's already a card..."
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I don't think SM is a power card, but I do think people are somewhat underrating the on-gain effect. If you open 4/3, you can grab a SM and a second 4-cost card on turn 2.
Yeah, but that's just the Nomad Camp thing all over again. You can open Nomad Camp/another $4 cost card, but if you do, you just essentially opened with Woodcutter/$4 cost card, which is just a regular 3/4 opening where the $3 is particularly weak.
It's particularly good when there is a TfB available, especially one that costs 4 or less such as Procession or Remake.
For example:
Turn 1: SM
Turn 2: Procession
Turn 3: Procession the SM. Now you have a $5 card, $5-8 to spend this turn (4-7 copper and the coffer), and two villagers. You're also shuffling your discard pile for Turn 4.
That's if the two cards collide on Turn 3. There is no guarantee that will happen.
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For example:
Turn 1: SM
Turn 2: Procession
Turn 3: Procession the SM. Now you have a $5 card, $5-8 to spend this turn (4-7 copper and the coffer), and two villagers. You're also shuffling your discard pile for Turn 4.
More like:
Turn 1: SM
Turn 2: Procession
Turn 3: draw Procession without the SM.
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I don't think SM is a power card, but I do think people are somewhat underrating the on-gain effect. If you open 4/3, you can grab a SM and a second 4-cost card on turn 2.
Yeah, but that's just the Nomad Camp thing all over again. You can open Nomad Camp/another $4 cost card, but if you do, you just essentially opened with Woodcutter/$4 cost card, which is just a regular 3/4 opening where the $3 is particularly weak.
It's particularly good when there is a TfB available, especially one that costs 4 or less such as Procession or Remake.
For example:
Turn 1: SM
Turn 2: Procession
Turn 3: Procession the SM. Now you have a $5 card, $5-8 to spend this turn (4-7 copper and the coffer), and two villagers. You're also shuffling your discard pile for Turn 4.
That's if the two cards collide on Turn 3. There is no guarantee that will happen.
For sure. Only pointing out some possible upside.
The villager allows there to be flexibility if you miss. Say you draw SM turn 3, and by playing it you draw your Remake. Well now you can use the villager to play the remake, which is really the better and more practical example. I just like cards that combo with procession.
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For example:
Turn 1: SM
Turn 2: Procession
Turn 3: Procession the SM. Now you have a $5 card, $5-8 to spend this turn (4-7 copper and the coffer), and two villagers. You're also shuffling your discard pile for Turn 4.
More like:
Turn 1: SM
Turn 2: Procession
Turn 3: draw Procession without the SM.
Turn 1: SM
Turn 2: Procession
Turn 3: Draw Procession without the SM
Turn 4: Don't draw SM
Turn 5: Draw SM. Play SM and draw Procession with no other action card
Turn 6: Resign
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I like how, since Empires, most attacks are either not that powerful or self-limited.
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Is anyone else disappointed that Silk Merchant and Silk Road don't combo much?
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+cards +buy is usually a strong effect. Wharf, Margrave, Council Room, Tragic Hero, Ranger--even the weaker ones of the bunch are pretty okay. You're probably sad if Silk Merchant is your only draw, or worse, if it's your only village. But if you need +buy, Silk Merchant is there for you.
And that's not even talking about the on-gain effect, which seems particularly good in the opener. Usually I don't like to get terminal-draw/terminal in the opener because collision rates are so high.
Admittedly, I haven't had a chance to play with today's cards, but I'm a little surprised people have been as down on Silk Merchant as they have been here. Like trivialknot points out, +buy that draws cards is pretty strong. I mean, I consider Wharf and Margrave as both too strong (which is especially annoying with Margrave; too many decisions that it's not fun, but too good to just ignore), so much so that all the other +buy drawers have drawbacks!
Sure, +2 cards is significantly different than +3 cards, but I think the thing people are ignoring is how low the opportunity cost for Silk Merchant's buy is. Yeah, Silk Merchant probably won't be your primary draw card, but it's definitely not a card that you'll feel bad about picking up for the +buy. Often picking up that extra buy involves a momentary loss in consistency or efficiency, that I don't think will be there so much with Silk Merchant.
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I like how, since Empires, most attacks are either not that powerful or self-limited.
Also there aren't very many of them. Well, I guess Nocturne has a bunch. But Empires has 3, and as we know from the teaser, Renaissance only has 2.
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Nocturne got a bunch of Attacks mainly to show off the Hexes, I would think.
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Nocturne got a bunch of Attacks mainly to show off the Hexes, I would think.
I think it was really more that the Hexes allowed for Attacks to be made relatively easily.
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Any reason why it's the plural "+1 Coffers" instead of "+1 Coffer"?
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Any reason why it's the plural "+1 Coffers" instead of "+1 Coffer"?
+1 Coffer doesn't actually convey the idea. It's like saying +1 Safe. When really you're adding money to your safe(s). So, +1 to your Safe. You're adding money to your coffers. +1 Coffers.
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At first I thought the new cards are fun, but when I saw that Ducat is strictly better that Candlestick Maker, I got very disappointed. Villain (which should be a pun to Village, I guess) also plays very different, if you use Shelters (but so do Shepherd and Baron).
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At first I thought the new cards are fun, but when I saw that Ducat is strictly better that Candlestick Maker, I got very disappointed.
There are so many cards in Dominion that care about whether something is an Action, or whether something is a Treasure. On the whole, being a non-terminal Action is a lot better than being a Treasure, but in any case, they are a lot different. I'm not even sure whether the trashing ability makes up for the type disadvantage, but we'll see.
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Ducat is strictly better that Candlestick Maker
It is not. Treasures and non-terminal Actions are similar but not identical.
Let's take a hypothetical Action-Silver: +1 Action +2 Coins
I dare to claim that it would have to cost $4 because a lot of cards prefer that over Silver: Throne Room variants, draw-to-X, Scrying Pool, Golem, Herald, Ghost and probably a bunch I forgot.
The advantage of the Treasure over the Action is that it cannot be drawn yet. I think that the former on average outweighs the latter.
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+1 Coffer doesn't actually convey the idea. It's like saying +1 Safe. When really you're adding money to your safe(s). So, +1 to your Safe. You're adding money to your coffers. +1 Coffers.
I keep seeing this explanation, but it still makes no sense to me. One might as well say "+1 Storage Solutions" to mean "gain a Dominion expansion".
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At first I thought the new cards are fun, but when I saw that Ducat is strictly better that Candlestick Maker, I got very disappointed. Villain (which should be a pun to Village, I guess) also plays very different, if you use Shelters (but so do Shepherd and Baron).
Ducat may be better but it is not "strictly" better in the literal sense of the word. Ducat is a treasure and CSM is an action and so they do interact differently with some cards.
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+1 Coffer doesn't actually convey the idea. It's like saying +1 Safe. When really you're adding money to your safe(s). So, +1 to your Safe. You're adding money to your coffers. +1 Coffers.
I keep seeing this explanation, but it still makes no sense to me. One might as well say "+1 Storage Solutions" to mean "gain a Dominion expansion".
(https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/connoisseur.png)
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Is anyone else disappointed that Silk Merchant and Silk Road don't combo much?
I think Silk Road likes the +Buy a bit, and I guess the draw helps you get through the green?
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I think the relationship of coffer to coffers is much like that of fund and funds.
Fund (as a noun) is a place to put money; think mutual fund or trust fund. "Funds" could refer to multiples of fund (e.g. all these rich kids have trust funds), but it can also mean financial resources in general (e.g. I have the funds to buy a new suit). If you were adding 1 unit of money to your general financial resources, you wouldn't say +1 fund; it would be +1 funds (or perhaps +1 to funds). Coffer/coffers is the same.
Whether you think coffers was a good choice of terminology or not, the usage here (as opposed to just "coffer") is correct for what's trying to be communicated.
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But actually, how do you pronounce that word?
'dʌ.kət (DUH-cut). Classic English vowel reduction, taking all the fun out of words.
Well, my "where's my Duke at?" meme for Homage is officially canceled now...
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"Funds" could refer to [...] but it can also mean financial resources in general
Trouble is, in that sense it's a mass noun.
If you were adding 1 unit of money to your general financial resources, you wouldn't say +1 fund; it would be +1 funds (or perhaps +1 to funds).
Not even "+1 to funds". It would have to be "+1[unit] to funds", e.g. "+$1 to funds" or "+1¢ to funds".
Coffer/coffers is the same.
Agreed. And "+$1 to Coffers" would, similarly, make sense.
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Oxford English Dictionary shows it plural in the intended sense:
Coffer
a strongbox or small chest for holding valuables
• (coffers) the funds or financial reserves of an organization a Dominion player
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Although we whine about cards being nearly strictly better or strictly worse, that's mostly an aesthetics issue. After all, in most games you only have one or the other available, and you'll still buy the "strictly worse" card because you don't have the opportunity to buy the better one. The greater question is whether the cards play similarly or not.
If you don't trash a copper, Ducat is like Candlestick Maker, except in a few (relatively common) edge cases. But wouldn't you usually want to trash a copper? In this case, Ducat functions similar to Market Square, but it turns a coin into a coin token. So, not really all that similar to Candlestick Maker.
... Now I'm thinking about Hermit/Ducat combos.
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It's a bit unfortunate that it's inconsistent with all other +'es, including Villagers. "+1 Coffers and +1 Villager". So you take one... thing... and add it to your Coffers, and then you take a Villager. So the Coin token directly represents a Villager in the latter case, and represents something undefined in the former case - we just know that it goes to your Coffers.
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But actually, how do you pronounce that word?
'dʌ.kət (DUH-cut). Classic English vowel reduction, taking all the fun out of words.
Well, my "where's my Duke at?" meme for Homage is officially canceled now...
I was going to make a comment about how both words share the same etymology, so not sure whether that would constitute a pun. Then I realized this conversation is already veering into a discussion about words and grammar, and we all know how much we all enjoy those, so I stopped myself.
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But actually, how do you pronounce that word?
'dʌ.kət (DUH-cut). Classic English vowel reduction, taking all the fun out of words.
Well, my "where's my Duke at?" meme for Homage is officially canceled now...
I was going to make a comment about how both words share the same etymology, so not sure whether that would constitute a pun. Then I realized this conversation is already veering into a discussion about words and grammar, and we all know how much we all enjoy those, so I stopped myself.
Oh hey, are "Ducat" and "Duchy" Dominion's first pair of 100% etymological doublets (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doublet_(linguistics))?
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Glancing at the examples on that Wikipedia page, that depends a lot on whether you count Dominion/Dungeon.
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Oh hey, are "Ducat" and "Duchy" Dominion's first pair of 100% etymological doublets (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doublet_(linguistics))?
I'm not sure on what exactly qualifies, but according to etymonline, but here are a few other quick ones I found:
* Village/Villa and Villain both share Latin villa, meaning farm or country house, but villain originally meant a farmhand.
* Dominate and Dungeon both share PIE *dem-
* Prince and Copper both share PIE *kap-
* Platinum and Plaza share PIE *plat-
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Oh hey, are "Ducat" and "Duchy" Dominion's first pair of 100% etymological doublets (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doublet_(linguistics))?
I'm not sure on what exactly qualifies, but according to etymonline, but here are a few other quick ones I found:
* Village/Villa and Villain both share Latin villa, meaning farm or country house, but villain originally meant a farmhand.
* Dominate and Dungeon both share PIE *dem-
* Prince and Copper both share PIE *kap-
* Platinum and Plaza share PIE *plat-
So what I mean by 100% doublets is, Ducat and Duchy don't just come from the same root, but actually from the same word, with nothing else added. So duchy is borrowed from Old French duché, which is the reflex of Latin ducatus; and ducat is borrowed from Old French ducat, which is borrowed from Italian ducato, which is itself the reflex of ducatus. So they both go back to the exact same word, ducatus, just taking different routes into modern English.
Whereas, for example, village and villain come from villa, yes, but they do so by adding a suffix to the root villa, not just by letting the word take its course through time and space.
(BTW, copper doesn't come from PIE *kap-. Or rather, copper 'police officer' comes from *kap-, but the Copper in Dominion is the metal; that word comes from the placename Cyprus.)
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(BTW, copper doesn't come from PIE *kap-. Or rather, copper 'police officer' comes from *kap-, but the Copper in Dominion is the metal; that word comes from the placename Cyprus.)
My bad, misread the etymonline entry.
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Some plausible future card names that would be doublets of existing cards: Peon, Money, State, Esquire, Eremite, Fief, Fee
Less likely ones: Bench, Fabric, Place, Guy, Wit, Fjord
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Some plausible future card names that would be doublets of existing cards: Peon, Money, State, Esquire, Eremite, Fief, Fee
Less likely ones: Bench, Fabric, Place, Guy, Wit, Fjord
Pawn, Mine, Estate, Squire, Hermit, Feodum, ?
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Some plausible future card names that would be doublets of existing cards: Peon, Money, State, Esquire, Eremite, Fief, Fee
Less likely ones: Bench, Fabric, Place, Guy, Wit, Fjord
Pawn, Mine, Estate, Squire, Hermit, Feodum, ?
Also Feodum.
(And money is a doublet with mint, not mine. True story.)
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Some plausible future card names that would be doublets of existing cards: Peon, Money, State, Esquire, Eremite, Fief, Fee
Less likely ones: Bench, Fabric, Place, Guy, Wit, Fjord
Using such similar words might eventually cause translation difficulties, if that hasn't already happened.
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Ducat is strictly better that Candlestick Maker
It is not. Treasures and non-terminal Actions are similar but not identical.
Let's take a hypothetical Action-Silver: +1 Action +2 Coins
I dare to claim that it would have to cost $4 because a lot of cards prefer that over Silver: Throne Room variants, draw-to-X, Scrying Pool, Golem, Herald, Ghost and probably a bunch I forgot.
The advantage of the Treasure over the Action is that it cannot be drawn yet. I think that the former on average outweighs the latter.
There are quite a bit of terminal draw cards (which prefer silver as it can't be drawn dead), and there also are quite a bit of cards that interact with silver. I'm too lazy to count but I think on the whole they're pretty close, or at least close enough not to have a substantial advantage over one another to warrant a cost of $4.
If you want to count there's the Action, Treasure, and Terminal Draw pages on the wiki (the last of which also holds draw-to-x).
Also don't forget that Action-Silver is easier to three-pile, assuming it's a kingdom card.
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Ducat is strictly better that Candlestick Maker
It is not. Treasures and non-terminal Actions are similar but not identical.
Let's take a hypothetical Action-Silver: +1 Action +2 Coins
I dare to claim that it would have to cost $4 because a lot of cards prefer that over Silver: Throne Room variants, draw-to-X, Scrying Pool, Golem, Herald, Ghost and probably a bunch I forgot.
The advantage of the Treasure over the Action is that it cannot be drawn yet. I think that the former on average outweighs the latter.
There are quite a bit of terminal draw cards (which prefer silver as it can't be drawn dead), and there also are quite a bit of cards that interact with silver. I'm too lazy to count but I think on the whole they're pretty close, or at least close enough not to have a substantial advantage over one another to warrant a cost of $4.
If you want to count there's the Action, Treasure, and Terminal Draw pages on the wiki (the last of which also holds draw-to-x).
Also don't forget that Action-Silver is easier to three-pile, assuming it's a kingdom card.
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=1225.0
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Villain is by the way pretty sweet with shelters, hits right away. Feels pretty thematic, it could really belong in Dark Ages without feeling awkward..
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But actually, how do you pronounce that word?
'dʌ.kət (DUH-cut). Classic English vowel reduction, taking all the fun out of words.
Yeah I'm going to go with Dew-Kat
I prefer Ethan's typo (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=19018.msg771188#msg771188) version: Doo-act
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Some plausible future card names that would be doublets of existing cards: Peon, Money, State, Esquire, Eremite, Fief, Fee
Less likely ones: Bench, Fabric, Place, Guy, Wit, Fjord
Fee, fief, feodum
I smell the blood of an Englishman
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Some plausible future card names that would be doublets of existing cards: Peon, Money, State, Esquire, Eremite, Fief, Fee
Less likely ones: Bench, Fabric, Place, Guy, Wit, Fjord
Using such similar words might eventually cause translation difficulties, if that hasn't already happened.
Duchy and ducat are the same word in Spanish sooo
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So Ducat kind of means "Coin with the duke's face on it". Heh.
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Clearly, the next expansion should include both a Treasure called Denarius and a Reaction called Denier.
Then we could have a lot of "fun" deciding if Denier was something that denies (unrelated to Denarius), or the unit of textile measure (related).
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So after playing with these:
Villain: Yeah, it's weak. It compares especially unfavorably to Legionary.
Ducat: It's decent. I'm kind of disappointed you can't trash Coppers in play.
Silk Merchant: Stronger than it looks. It's pretty great with TFB, and it's also nice with Sculptor.
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Some plausible future card names that would be doublets of existing cards: Peon, Money, State, Esquire, Eremite, Fief, Fee
Less likely ones: Bench, Fabric, Place, Guy, Wit, Fjord
Using such similar words might eventually cause translation difficulties, if that hasn't already happened.
Some cards have translation difficulties in Chinese. Such as Thief/Bandit/Rogue.
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Silk Merchant: Stronger than it looks. It's pretty great with TFB, and it's also nice with Sculptor.
How? It replaces itself and Sculptor by using up its own Villager. For the turn you haven't increased your hand size, only got 1 Coffers token and a Buy. And the Sculptor is now more like a Moat (unless you plan on trashing it).
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Ducat: It's decent. I'm kind of disappointed you can't trash Coppers in play.
Sure, but then it would have to cost $3. But then you wouldn't be able to buy it for $2 and trash nothing.
A treasure that only granted +1 Buy would occasionally be gained for $2 boards with no other +Buy, but it would feel really bad. Ducat is just barely good enough to tempt me into buying too many of them. Which I guess is sort of good.
I feel sorry for Candlestick Maker. I guess you can throne it or play it before Scholar or whatever, but meh.
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Silk Merchant: Stronger than it looks. It's pretty great with TFB, and it's also nice with Sculptor.
How? It replaces itself and Sculptor by using up its own Villager. For the turn you haven't increased your hand size, only got 1 Coffers token and a Buy. And the Sculptor is now more like a Moat (unless you plan on trashing it).
You did increase your hand size though, albeit by only one card:
Hand of W, X, Y, Z, Sculptor. No coffers or Villagers. 1 action, 1 buy.
Play Sculptor, gaining Silk Merchant to hand. Hand is now W, X, Y, Z, Silk Merchant. No coffers, no Villagers. No actions, 1 buy.
Silk Merchant on-gain triggers. 1 coffers, 1 Villager.
Spend Villager to play Silk Merchant, getting +2 cards and +1 buy. Hand is now W, X, Y, Z, A, B. 1 Coffers, no Villagers. No actions, 2 buys.
Not the most effective use of Sculptor by any means, but hey, maybe you really needed that buy to close out the game with a double province or a three pile
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Ducat: It's decent. I'm kind of disappointed you can't trash Coppers in play.
Just think of it as revisiting overpay.
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Some plausible future card names that would be doublets of existing cards: Peon, Money, State, Esquire, Eremite, Fief, Fee
Less likely ones: Bench, Fabric, Place, Guy, Wit, Fjord
Using such similar words might eventually cause translation difficulties, if that hasn't already happened.
Some cards have translation difficulties in Chinese. Such as Thief/Bandit/Rogue.
I still have nightmares of O U D E B E K E N D E.
(they translated 'familiar' to 'old acquaintance')
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I like how, since Empires, most attacks are either not that powerful or self-limited.
I think that this already applied in Adventures. I think it's one of the biggest improvements in the latest sets.
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You did increase your hand size though, albeit by only one card:
Hand of W, X, Y, Z, Sculptor. No coffers or Villagers. 1 action, 1 buy.
Play Sculptor, gaining Silk Merchant to hand. Hand is now W, X, Y, Z, Silk Merchant. No coffers, no Villagers. No actions, 1 buy.
Silk Merchant on-gain triggers. 1 coffers, 1 Villager.
Spend Villager to play Silk Merchant, getting +2 cards and +1 buy. Hand is now W, X, Y, Z, A, B. 1 Coffers, no Villagers. No actions, 2 buys.
Not the most effective use of Sculptor by any means, but hey, maybe you really needed that buy to close out the game with a double province or a three pile
Right, I calculated wrong, you increase your hand by 1. As you say, not great, but not terrible.
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You did increase your hand size though, albeit by only one card:
Hand of W, X, Y, Z, Sculptor. No coffers or Villagers. 1 action, 1 buy.
Play Sculptor, gaining Silk Merchant to hand. Hand is now W, X, Y, Z, Silk Merchant. No coffers, no Villagers. No actions, 1 buy.
Silk Merchant on-gain triggers. 1 coffers, 1 Villager.
Spend Villager to play Silk Merchant, getting +2 cards and +1 buy. Hand is now W, X, Y, Z, A, B. 1 Coffers, no Villagers. No actions, 2 buys.
Not the most effective use of Sculptor by any means, but hey, maybe you really needed that buy to close out the game with a double province or a three pile
Right, I calculated wrong, you increase your hand by 1. As you say, not great, but not terrible.
Well whaddaya know, today it was really helpful for me in a gardens game. Like I said, sometimes you really need that +buy.
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Villain has interesting tension with Swashbuckler. It helps feed it with coin tokens, but also fills your opponent's discard. So you can end up helping your opponent activate their Swashbucklers as well, especially if it's a board without good ways to fill your own discard mid-turn.
Villain is also interesting with Council Room and other effects leading to your opponents having more than 5 cards in hand on your turn. It takes multiple Villain hits to get them all the way down to 4, but if they draw cards that miss Villain, they can end up with a worse hand than if they hadn't had those extra draws.
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I did not like the "Coffers" wording at all when it was revealed. But now that I'm seeing it together with Villagers, I'm glad that it was changed.
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I did not like the "Coffers" wording at all when it was revealed. But now that I'm seeing it together with Villagers, I'm glad that it was changed.
Agreed. Now I'm wondering if this was the reason for it...
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I did not like the "Coffers" wording at all when it was revealed. But now that I'm seeing it together with Villagers, I'm glad that it was changed.
Agreed. Now I'm wondering if this was the reason for it...
Pretty much. The “Coffers” terminology originated with Renaissance and, luckily, second edition Guilds hadn’t yet been printed.
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Ducat is S-tier "easier to play in real life".
Note that ShuffleIT now allows you to undo the "play all treasures" button without it asking your opponent for permission. A change specifically made with Ducat in mind.
I feel like anyone else can answer this kind of question, but yes, guys, hello, you can use the Ducat +1 Coffers the turn you play it, barring edge cases.
Ducats were actual Renaissance-era coins, and are not a reference to anyone who the person who took over Goko may have once picked to make online Dominion.
nice!
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Now that new Dominon sets seem to be continuing indefinitely, I'm ok with similar ideas reoccuring. This is coming from a very harsh critic of any and all wastes of card slots in the "Guilds is the last set" era.
There are so many cards now that seeing a particular card in a given full-random game can be rare, and you'd want to increase the probability of it reoccurring. That's done with Village, Smithy, Workshop, Peddler etc. but it should also be true for slightly more niche cards.
Or if an idea is good, why not allow access to the idea in different sets?
I'd be ok with blatant things in future sets like "Quarry but it's an Event costing $P", or "Distant Lands but it trashes itself for VP tokens".
Similarly scrapped ideas that weren't particularly interesting would be fine for revisiting (Like the top-deck Remodel that was replaced with Rebuild) as simple cards for future sets.
All of this is fine as long as each set is decent value for money, and with Projects, Renaissance looks like it will be.
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Now that new Dominon sets seem to be continuing indefinitely, I'm ok with similar ideas reoccuring. This is coming from a very harsh critic of any and all wastes of card slots in the "Guilds is the last set" era.
There are so many cards now that seeing a particular card in a given full-random game can be rare, and you'd want to increase the probability of it reoccurring. That's done with Village, Smithy, Workshop, Peddler etc. but it should also be true for slightly more niche cards.
Or if an idea is good, why not allow access to the idea in different sets?
I'd be ok with blatant things in future sets like "Quarry but it's an Event costing $P", or "Distant Lands but it trashes itself for VP tokens".
Similarly scrapped ideas that weren't particularly interesting would be fine for revisiting (Like the top-deck Remodel that was replaced with Rebuild) as simple cards for future sets.
All of this is fine as long as each set is decent value for money, and with Projects, Renaissance looks like it will be.
Seriously. What are the odds that Ducat and CSM are in the same kingdom? Less than the odds that there are multiple village, +3 card, or curser variants. And if they are in the same kingdom, well now you might have a decision to make.
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I always have trouble keeping Spice Merchant (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Spice_Merchant) and Silk Road (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Silk_Road) straight in terms of the names. Silk Merchant (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Silk_Merchant) will help a lot. ;D
Silk Merchant is the second card from this expansion where I've read the name and thought "I swear that's already a card..."
We'll be saying the same thing when Spice Road makes an appearance ;)
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Some cards have translation difficulties in Chinese. Such as Thief/Bandit/Rogue.
The same issue did occur in German.
Wandering Minstrel and Bard have their translations swapped, because Wandering Minstrel was already translated as "Barde". They somehow decided to translate Bard with "Minnesängerin" (female minstrel).
Fortune Teller/Soothsayer/Seer: Soothsayer is generic masculinum "Wahrsager" and Fortune Teller uses the female form "Wahrsagerin". Seer was translated literally as "Seher".
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Also, even though the spelling is different, I will never read "Ducat" without picturing this:
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/d9/ad/c5/d9adc534fa0c4b3330a10b47c429c088.jpg)
And every time I look at the card, I feel like it should have a color more of an Obsidian Order.
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Some plausible future card names that would be doublets of existing cards: Peon, Money, State, Esquire, Eremite, Fief, Fee
Less likely ones: Bench, Fabric, Place, Guy, Wit, Fjord
Ah, how did I not think of Piazza? Now we’ve got two exact doublets!