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Dominion => Dominion General Discussion => Dominion: Renaissance Previews => Topic started by: Donald X. on September 24, 2018, 03:00:27 am

Title: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
Post by: Donald X. on September 24, 2018, 03:00:27 am
Dominion, that's what you're trying to achieve. This time in the Renaissance!

Renaissance has four themes: Villagers, Coffers, Artifacts, Projects. And we'll be seeing them in that order over the next 4 days. But in fact half the kingdom cards in the set don't fit any of those themes. And today, here are some of those. Like last time we will have the preview cards playable at dominion.games, and to have plenty of variety there I'm previewing 5 cards today. You read them already, but this paragraph still has to pretend you haven't, so, here they are:

(https://i.imgur.com/T3UnoN9.png)

Mountain Village gets back a card from your discard pile instead of drawing you a card. Or draws you a card if it can't, you aren't hurt there. It does some tricks; the first one you'll see is, one Mountain Village in your hand gets back all the Mountain Villages in your discard pile.

Priest is a trasher, and rewards you for further trashing. Play Priest, get +$2, trash a Copper. Play a second Priest, get +$2, trash a Copper, get a +$2 bonus from the first Priest. Play a third Priest, get +$2, trash a Silver (you ran out of Coppers), get +$2 from the first Priest and +$2 from the second Priest. See how it goes? Try to have enough stuff to feed them.

Seer draws cards costing from $2 to $4. Those aren't your best cards but hey, you could get three of them.

Scholar makes the cards go round. It's a poster child for simplicity; this set goes the extra mile to be simpler than the previous few.

Experiment is a one-shot Lab, but you get two of them.

Again, dominion.games, you can try out the cards right now (yes unless you are reading this from the future). Click on the thing that looks like it will do that, and it will.
Title: Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
Post by: Watno on September 24, 2018, 03:07:26 am
If we keep going at this rate, we'll see all the cards this week.
Title: Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
Post by: dz on September 24, 2018, 03:19:11 am
Well we now know the action tokens are named Villagers.

Half the kingdom cards don't use those themes? Wow this expansion is definitely gonna be more simple. And they seem quite interesting!
Title: Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
Post by: faust on September 24, 2018, 03:48:39 am
Hm, those Lab variants seem not too interesting to me, but, Mountain Village, Priest, Scholar are all rather exciting.

Random art complaint: It's nice that we get an equal share of female characters now, but I dislike the tendency of portaying them young and attractive. Here we have two old dudes and two younger women.
Title: Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
Post by: Minotaur on September 24, 2018, 03:58:02 am
Priest-Throne Room-Experiment leads to some weird stuff.  You can Throne Experiments and Priests, and hopefully get $16... but then you're out of garbage cards, and you have to trash the Priests and maybe a Throne Room at the end if you really need the $2...
Title: Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
Post by: Minotaur on September 24, 2018, 04:01:10 am
Hm, that Lab variants seem not too interesting to me, but, Mountain Village, Priest, Scholar are all rather exciting.

The choice of whether to play them or save them is kind of interesting, and newer players may overlook the fact that there's even a choice to make.  Being able to line them all up with Mountain Village or even Scholar...  I think there are possibilities within this set alone, and even more so if you're just trying to set up a specific combination.
Title: Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
Post by: AJD on September 24, 2018, 04:40:16 am
I note that Mountain Village's disjunctive instruction—do X, but if you can't, do Y—has the same effect as "put a card from it on your deck, then +1 card." I appreciate the choice to go with the easier-to-follow instruction rather than the more concise one, especially if this is supposed to be an expansion with less complexity.


(okay same effect modulo Relic or whatever)
Title: Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
Post by: Asper on September 24, 2018, 04:42:46 am
I really like where this is going. Looks like the name "Renaissance" wasn't chosen on accident.
Title: Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
Post by: infangthief on September 24, 2018, 04:47:42 am
Hm, that Lab variants seem not too interesting to me, but, Mountain Village, Priest, Scholar are all rather exciting.

The choice of whether to play them or save them is kind of interesting, and newer players may overlook the fact that there's even a choice to make.  Being able to line them all up with Mountain Village or even Scholar...  I think there are possibilities within this set alone, and even more so if you're just trying to set up a specific combination.
Experiments look like they'd contribute well to a mega-turn.

Priest would have been exactly the same without the initial +$2, but with the other instructions swapped round, right?
Title: Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
Post by: markus on September 24, 2018, 04:50:47 am
Priest would have been exactly the same without the initial +$2, but with the other instructions swapped round, right?
Not if it's your last card in hand.
Title: Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
Post by: infangthief on September 24, 2018, 05:01:36 am
Hurrah for simplicity.
Hurrah for normality.
Title: Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
Post by: samath on September 24, 2018, 05:08:41 am
First impressions video is up! Featuring games with jmjjmj and markus.

https://youtu.be/zc_B8aEOinQ
Title: Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
Post by: J Reggie on September 24, 2018, 05:30:28 am
Exciting stuff! I love that the expansion symbol is a brush, although without looking closely it kind of just looks like a line.
Title: Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
Post by: ipofanes on September 24, 2018, 05:46:20 am
Seer should be a great companion to Encampments, Hamlets, and Patricians (though the deliberate placement of a $5 card is only possible if Seer picked up not more than one Patrician).
Title: Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
Post by: faust on September 24, 2018, 06:12:45 am
It's funny how Experiment is just Expedition turned into a card and they share the first 4 letters.
Title: Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
Post by: ossiangrr on September 24, 2018, 06:30:20 am
Just a simple observation: Seer could combo well with Bridge to be able to pull more-expensive cards into your hand.
Title: Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
Post by: infangthief on September 24, 2018, 06:42:06 am
It's funny how Experiment is just Expedition turned into a card and they share the first 4 letters.
Would an Expert have an Expectation that Experiment and Expedition are Expendable but Expedite a deck-drawing Experience?
Title: Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
Post by: sorawotobu on September 24, 2018, 06:47:48 am
Just a simple observation: Seer could combo well with Bridge to be able to pull more-expensive cards into your hand.

My first game with Seer had Bridge Troll, allowing my Seers to pick up Seers.
Title: Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
Post by: benedettosoxfan on September 24, 2018, 06:53:58 am
These cards seem really powerful at first glance. Priest and fortress is gonna get ridiculous no doubt. Could end up being a crazy payload card. I'm assuming you don't get the $2 for the card that it trashes though. That would be +$4 trash a card from your hand. Either way I'll probably be opening priest a ton. It trashes (just one card but still) and will also help you hit $5 on the first shuffle. Mountain village sounds really good, but now that I think of it the presence of cursers will make it weaker because you'll probably have to put a curse in your hand if it's all that's in your discard pile. I do love the simplicity and can't wait to play with them!
Title: Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
Post by: Holunder9 on September 24, 2018, 07:30:03 am
A guaranteed triple Lab via Seer after a 5/2 opening looks game-breaking crazy. If there is a junker at $5 you want Seer even more and if there is a trasher at $5 chances are extremly high that you can get it after the first shuffle.
Title: Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
Post by: Cuzz on September 24, 2018, 07:35:04 am
Wow, the rest of turn part for Priest stacks. KC-Priest in at the beginning of a normal turn becomes "+$12. Trash your hand."
Title: Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
Post by: theorel on September 24, 2018, 07:52:06 am
A guaranteed triple Lab via Seer after a 5/2 opening looks game-breaking crazy. If there is a junker at $5 you want Seer even more and if there is a trasher at $5 chances are extremly high that you can get it after the first shuffle.
I'm really confused by your comment...Seer only gets cards costing from 2-4.  How is it a guaranteed triple-lab, since it can only draw your opening buy and estates?  How does it help you hit 5?
Title: Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
Post by: faust on September 24, 2018, 07:52:35 am
A guaranteed triple Lab via Seer after a 5/2 opening looks game-breaking crazy. If there is a junker at $5 you want Seer even more and if there is a trasher at $5 chances are extremly high that you can get it after the first shuffle.
Seer can't draw Coppers...

EDIT: Ninja'd
Title: Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
Post by: faust on September 24, 2018, 07:54:16 am
Wow, the rest of turn part for Priest stacks. KC-Priest in at the beginning of a normal turn becomes "+$12. Trash your hand."
Priest combo decks are hilarious. My favorite so far is Priest-Mint (with +buy).
Title: Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
Post by: Holunder9 on September 24, 2018, 08:03:35 am
I don't care much for the hyper-simplicity but Mountain Village seems the most interesting so far. Definitely behaves uniquely, Can be totally crazy, can just draw junk from the discard so anti-synergies with junking and sifting.
Still not particularly skill-dependent unless it competes with other splitters in the Kingdom.
Title: Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
Post by: silvern on September 24, 2018, 08:38:50 am
Again, dominion.games, you can try out the cards right now (yes unless you are reading this from the future).

Everything you read, you are reading from the future!
Title: Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
Post by: crj on September 24, 2018, 08:48:03 am
Woo! Simple cards with interesting emergent properties. Exactly what attracted me to Dominion in the first place all those years ago. Not too demanding; not too frivolous or swingy. We're back in the Goldilocks zone! (-8

(I see Seer and think we've had that name before. Nope, it was Sage in Dark Ages. I expect I'm going to get those two confused a lot...)
Title: Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
Post by: crj on September 24, 2018, 08:57:18 am
I've just noticed that 1 Scheme and any number of Mountain Villages would be self-sustaining:

Start your turn with a Mountain Village in hand. Cascade through playing and drawing all the Mountain Villages in your discard pile. When you play the final Mountain Village, draw Scheme and play it. During clean-up, topdeck one Mountain Village.

That's not overpowered. It might not even be a winning play. But messing about with these new cards is going to be so much fun!
Title: Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
Post by: faust on September 24, 2018, 09:16:35 am
I've just noticed that 1 Scheme and any number of Mountain Villages would be self-sustaining:

Start your turn with a Mountain Village in hand. Cascade through playing and drawing all the Mountain Villages in your discard pile. When you play the final Mountain Village, draw Scheme and play it. During clean-up, topdeck one Mountain Village.

That's not overpowered. It might not even be a winning play. But messing about with these new cards is going to be so much fun!
This only works if you have at least 4 cards left in your draw pile at the end of your turn, so you don't cause a reshuffle.
Title: Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
Post by: markusin on September 24, 2018, 09:23:36 am
Get rekt Harbinger.

I fear tracking issues with Priest during complex turns, but otherwise I like it and the role it fills. The first one does less than Moneylender when trashing Copper, but can trash anything else and still get the +$2. It is also reminiscent of Sacrifice.

Seer has that nice price point range for its draws that keeps it from drawing itself but will help you find your support cards, including most villages. It lets you topdeck the rest too, that's an impressive bundle.

Is Scholar supposed to be the card with only 4 words? Naturally Scholar entices Draw-to-X support cards, but it does discard everything in your hand, so it feels more risky. Really want good deck tracking with it, even if you are just using it as a 5-cost smithy variant. The deck cycling is maybe relevant also.

Experiment seemed really powerful to me at first, as it's two Labs at the cost of $3 and a buy each turn, but so is Expedition. Experiments can have more synergy, but you don't get the draw at the start of the turn.

My schedule is a bit scrambled this week, but I'll try to give my impressions in video form for all the previews sometime before the set comes out. Also, today's previews give me an Alchemy feel.

Random art complaint: It's nice that we get an equal share of female characters now, but I dislike the tendency of portaying them young and attractive. Here we have two old dudes and two younger women.

I don't know, that scholar looks a bit aged on closer inspection, or perhaps just worn out. Still an interesting observation.
Title: Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
Post by: GendoIkari on September 24, 2018, 09:26:52 am
Scholar seems like a Library variant; but I would guess it's a good bit stronger. Extra cycling, and if you have enough Villages (or Villagers?) you can play all the good stuff from your hand first anyway; thus discarding only treasures and victory.
Title: Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
Post by: silvern on September 24, 2018, 09:42:34 am
Just played a lightning fast gardens match with mountain village + workshop. It's....a very good village. Might not beat wandering minstrel as the best $4 village, but it's close.

EDIT: upon further play....I think this is stronger than wandering minstrel. Also combos well with scholar, how fun!
Title: Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
Post by: mameluke on September 24, 2018, 09:51:19 am
Scholar / University is good.
Title: Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
Post by: Tozar on September 24, 2018, 10:17:57 am
I've played two games at Dominion.Games, neither of which had new cards. Do only subscription players get them?
Title: Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
Post by: J Reggie on September 24, 2018, 10:20:44 am
I've played two games at Dominion.Games, neither of which had new cards. Do only subscription players get them?

You have to specifically choose the Renaissance previews option.
Title: Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
Post by: Simon Jester on September 24, 2018, 10:28:41 am
I've played two games at Dominion.Games, neither of which had new cards. Do only subscription players get them?

You have to specifically choose the Renaissance previews option.

For the record it is not ranked games so feel free to mess around as much as you like.
Title: Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
Post by: Redly on September 24, 2018, 10:30:03 am
I've played two games at Dominion.Games, neither of which had new cards. Do only subscription players get them?

If you're aiming to play with the bot, please click the button in the bottom section that says "Preview vs Bot".
You're also able to play against another human, using that button at the top
Just checked, you should have those options even as a free account

(https://i.imgur.com/H1waCDn.jpg)
Title: Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
Post by: greybirdofprey on September 24, 2018, 10:35:42 am
Priest likes Treasure/Night trashers obviously.

What happens if you inherit Experiment?
Title: Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
Post by: Chris is me on September 24, 2018, 10:44:58 am
Sser is really quite good. If there's a board with mediocre cantrips, a vague amount of trashing, and maybe a Silver gainer, Seer turns that into a board where you could actually see your whole deck most turns. Even with just a couple of cards in that price point, the deck inspection isn't nothing. Topdecking instead of discarding the cards is what stops it from being incredibly powerful (along with not drawing Coppers as Tristan ran into up there).

Experiment is fantastic, there's tons of times when you want it. Occasionally in the opening, often with spare buys, especially in the beginning of the endgame. The big thing is, you don't really want to save it. I mean if saving it is the right move you save it, but you also probably shouldn't have bought it if you end up saving it, you know? It's no longer a net draw benefit if you save it. I mean, sunk cost fallacy comes into play here.

Mountain Viillage will be occasionally a bummer but more often than not will save you from bad shuffles and get you precisely the card you need. Very cool.

Priest seems alright, I'm sure there's some gain and trash stack that gets crazy, but even just as like a utility trasher it's fine.

Scholar is like Professor Oak from Pokémon, which is cute.
Title: Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
Post by: Ingix on September 24, 2018, 10:46:12 am
(About inheriting Experiment)
When you play an Estate, you draw 2 cards, get +1 Action and return the Estate to the Estate pile.

If you gain an Estate (buying, Workshop,...) you also gain an Experiment, but that's the end of it.
Title: Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
Post by: merlyn8804 on September 24, 2018, 10:48:58 am
So what happens if you play an experiment you bought from black market?
Title: Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
Post by: Asper on September 24, 2018, 10:49:30 am
Priest likes Treasure/Night trashers obviously.

Good luck spending that money at night.
Title: Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
Post by: Ingix on September 24, 2018, 10:52:11 am
If you play an Experiment from the Black Market pile, it will not be able to return to its own pile when it is played. So it stays in play and gets discarded normally. This is better than what happens to a similar played Encampment, which stays set aside for the remainder of the game.
Title: Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
Post by: werothegreat on September 24, 2018, 10:53:34 am
So what happens if you play an experiment you bought from black market?

Congratulations, you smuggled in a Laboratory on a Ferry.
Title: Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
Post by: faust on September 24, 2018, 10:57:14 am
Scholar is like Professor Oak from Pokémon, which is cute.
I had to squint a little, but I can see it now!

(https://i.imgur.com/hLtEDiQ.jpg)
Title: Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
Post by: ThetaSigma12 on September 24, 2018, 11:08:32 am
I'm interested to hear the discussion behind the wording of Experiment. It's really awkward, but I can't think of a better wording off the top of my head.
Title: Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
Post by: Neirai the Forgiven on September 24, 2018, 11:10:29 am
I'm interested to hear the discussion behind the wording of Experiment. It's really awkward, but I can't think of a better wording off the top of my head.

"You gain these in pairs." --> then explain this in the rulebook.
Title: Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
Post by: ThetaSigma12 on September 24, 2018, 11:14:13 am
I'm interested to hear the discussion behind the wording of Experiment. It's really awkward, but I can't think of a better wording off the top of my head.

"You gain these in pairs." --> then explain this in the rulebook.

I see where you're coming from, but that's pretty clunky. And referring people to the rulebooks like that was a pretty big no-no I'm guessing. My best bet would be: "When you gain this, gain another Experiment, not following its on-gain instructions." Similar to Enchantress.
Title: Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
Post by: Orange on September 24, 2018, 11:25:24 am
Wow, the rest of turn part for Priest stacks. KC-Priest in at the beginning of a normal turn becomes "+$12. Trash your hand."
Priest combo decks are hilarious. My favorite so far is Priest-Mint (with +buy).

My first Priest game had Rats in it, but I'm still afraid of Rats so I didn't try it   :-\
Title: Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
Post by: GendoIkari on September 24, 2018, 11:32:31 am
I'm interested to hear the discussion behind the wording of Experiment. It's really awkward, but I can't think of a better wording off the top of my head.

I was thinking the same. This seems like a good example of simply choosing clarity over precision. Everyone will know how Experiment works by reading the words; it shouldn't lead to questions like "but what if..." However, the wording doesn't follow a technical way that we should expect rules to work. It tells us that the next one doesn't come with another... but it doesn't tell us why. We were never instructed to ignore the on-gain ability. So why don't we gain a third? Simply because we don't; we were told that we don't. And we accept it.

It could have been something clunky like "when you gain this, put another one in your discard pile". Or of course just an on-buy trigger like Port (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Port).
Title: Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
Post by: LastFootnote on September 24, 2018, 11:39:16 am
I'm interested to hear the discussion behind the wording of Experiment. It's really awkward, but I can't think of a better wording off the top of my head.

"You gain these in pairs." --> then explain this in the rulebook.

Donald X. did consider this wording, or one very like it. I was, and still am, vehemently against it. It's even less precise than the final wording.
Title: Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
Post by: SuperHans on September 24, 2018, 11:42:27 am
I'm interested to hear the discussion behind the wording of Experiment. It's really awkward, but I can't think of a better wording off the top of my head.

"You gain these in pairs." --> then explain this in the rulebook.

Donald X. did consider this wording, or one very like it. I was, and still am, vehemently against it. It's even less precise than the final wording.

Final wording is precise, which is what matters.
Title: Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
Post by: jonts26 on September 24, 2018, 11:46:31 am
Mountain Village seems quite strong for a village. It acts like an accelerant when you're not drawing deck, letting you replay key cards one shuffle, or the new card you just bought last turn. Once you are drawing deck it behaves just like a normal village (with maybe some mid-turn gain shenanigans), but by that point, it's done a lot of extra work for you.
Title: Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
Post by: Cuzz on September 24, 2018, 12:07:53 pm
Mountain Village seems quite strong for a village. It acts like an accelerant when you're not drawing deck, letting you replay key cards one shuffle, or the new card you just bought last turn. Once you are drawing deck it behaves just like a normal village (with maybe some mid-turn gain shenanigans), but by that point, it's done a lot of extra work for you.

It has a slight drawback in that it anti-synergizes with sifting, because you are forced to draw stuff that you wanted to discard. But in most cases I agree it seems very strong.
Title: Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
Post by: TheOthin on September 24, 2018, 12:09:44 pm
Mountain Village seems quite strong for a village. It acts like an accelerant when you're not drawing deck, letting you replay key cards one shuffle, or the new card you just bought last turn. Once you are drawing deck it behaves just like a normal village (with maybe some mid-turn gain shenanigans), but by that point, it's done a lot of extra work for you.

It has a slight drawback in that it anti-synergizes with sifting, because you are forced to draw stuff that you wanted to discard. But in most cases I agree it seems very strong.
Also turning Militia attacks into Ghost Ship.

Lot of upside, but definitely some downsides.
Title: Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
Post by: Chris is me on September 24, 2018, 12:14:06 pm
Mountain Village seems quite strong for a village. It acts like an accelerant when you're not drawing deck, letting you replay key cards one shuffle, or the new card you just bought last turn. Once you are drawing deck it behaves just like a normal village (with maybe some mid-turn gain shenanigans), but by that point, it's done a lot of extra work for you.

It has a slight drawback in that it anti-synergizes with sifting, because you are forced to draw stuff that you wanted to discard. But in most cases I agree it seems very strong.

Sort of - it's as if your sifter discarded one less card. Obviously you'd prefer a regular Village there, but it's not quite a Necropolis.
Title: Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
Post by: Neirai the Forgiven on September 24, 2018, 12:31:39 pm
I'm interested to hear the discussion behind the wording of Experiment. It's really awkward, but I can't think of a better wording off the top of my head.

"You gain these in pairs." --> then explain this in the rulebook.

Donald X. did consider this wording, or one very like it. I was, and still am, vehemently against it. It's even less precise than the final wording.

Final wording is precise, which is what matters.

This is exactly what happens when you make a suggestion after thinking for 30 minutes rather than years and years. You find out that you are just retreading ground that was covered a long time ago.
Title: Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
Post by: j6m2m6j on September 24, 2018, 12:33:13 pm
Priest would be broken with Watchtower and Travelling Fair. If you play two Priests and have a Watchtower in hand, you can alternate between buying Travelling fairs and Coppers (then curses) for a net gain of 112 coins, giving you more than enough money to buy all the provinces.
Title: Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
Post by: ThetaSigma12 on September 24, 2018, 12:43:25 pm
Priest would be broken with Watchtower and Travelling Fair. If you play two Priests and have a Watchtower in hand, you can alternate between buying Travelling fairs and Coppers (then curses) for a net gain of 112 coins, giving you more than enough money to buy all the provinces.

Even with a single Priest, you can trash all the Coppers and Curses, which makes a three pile extremely easy.
Title: Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
Post by: Polk5440 on September 24, 2018, 12:47:44 pm
The simplicity; I love it!
Title: Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
Post by: faust on September 24, 2018, 12:51:05 pm
Priest would be broken with Watchtower and Travelling Fair. If you play two Priests and have a Watchtower in hand, you can alternate between buying Travelling fairs and Coppers (then curses) for a net gain of 112 coins, giving you more than enough money to buy all the provinces.
The worst thing about this is how extremely tedious it would be to actually play out online.
Title: Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
Post by: silvern on September 24, 2018, 01:00:27 pm
Priest would be broken with Watchtower and Travelling Fair. If you play two Priests and have a Watchtower in hand, you can alternate between buying Travelling fairs and Coppers (then curses) for a net gain of 112 coins, giving you more than enough money to buy all the provinces.
Even with a single Priest, you can trash all the Coppers and Curses, which makes a three pile extremely easy.

Actually, for this reason, I suspect that the combo in practice would often not be so broken--the first person to match a single priest and watchtower could pre-emptively obviate the combo by just emptying those piles.
Title: Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
Post by: Robz888 on September 24, 2018, 01:05:47 pm
For old time's sake, presenting: COMBOS WITH SCOUT (RIP)

Mountain Village: One of the big problems with Scout is when you buy it, you don't get to play it until your next shuffle. But Mountain Village solves that problem by letting you pluck your freshly purchased Scout from your discard pile and put it into your hand. For better results, add in more Scouts (note: the pile is likely to run).

Seer: Scout can't draw itself. But Seer can draw Scout, and it will draw those pesky Estates so that Scout can draw the Victory cards you really want in hand, like Duchies or something.

Scholar: This makes you discard your hand, which is a huge problem: say goodbye to your precious green cards! That's where Scout comes in, drawing them back into your hand for you, where you want them.

Now I see why Donald had to remove Scout--he realized any game that had Renaissance cards and Scout would just be over too quickly.
Title: Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
Post by: AJD on September 24, 2018, 01:16:24 pm
Experiment is to Encampment as Port is to...

wait, that's not it...

I've got it!

Experiment ≈ Encampment XOR Port
Title: Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
Post by: werothegreat on September 24, 2018, 02:01:20 pm
For old time's sake, presenting: COMBOS WITH SCOUT (RIP)

Mountain Village: One of the big problems with Scout is when you buy it, you don't get to play it until your next shuffle. But Mountain Village solves that problem by letting you pluck your freshly purchased Scout from your discard pile and put it into your hand. For better results, add in more Scouts (note: the pile is likely to run).

Seer: Scout cab't draw itself. But Seer can draw Scout, and it will draw those pesky Estates so that Scout can draw the Victory cards you really want in hand, like Duchies or something.

Scholar: This makes you discard your hand, which is a huge problem: say goodbye to your precious green cards! That's where Scout comes in, drawing them back into your hand for you, where you want them.

Now I see why Donald had to remove Scout--he realized any game that had Renaissance cards and Scout would just be over too quickly.

Priest: Trashes away everything other than Victory cards, so your Scouts draw more reliably.
Title: Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
Post by: ospond on September 24, 2018, 04:14:05 pm
I'm so, so happy with the focus on simplicity and really excited to see the rest of the set. To me, Adventures, Empires, and Nocturne just complicate and obscure the fact that most strategic synergies are really elegant and simple. In general, I love cards that introduce one mechanic and make it viable (e.g. Chapel, Scheme, Smugglers, Fortress, Band of Misfits); I dislike cards that tack random effects together, at least when they are conceptually and strategically unrelated (e.g. Watchtower, Horse Traders, on-trash effects like Squire and Hunting Grounds, on-gain effects like Doctor and Herald).

Mountain Village seems quite strong for a village. It acts like an accelerant when you're not drawing deck, letting you replay key cards one shuffle, or the new card you just bought last turn. Once you are drawing deck it behaves just like a normal village (with maybe some mid-turn gain shenanigans), but by that point, it's done a lot of extra work for you.

It has a slight drawback in that it anti-synergizes with sifting, because you are forced to draw stuff that you wanted to discard. But in most cases I agree it seems very strong.

In my playing, it seems the anti-synergy can be mostly removed by playing around it appropriately. So, if you get Mountain Villages and Warehouses in the same deck, what you do is learn to discard a good card with Warehouse whenever necessary. Also this only matters just after a shuffle or if you have already sifted through your whole deck this turn and picked up all the actions.

Even if you get unlucky and have to discard something with Warehouse only to pick up the same thing again with Mountain Village, Warehouse + Mountain Village is the equivalent of "+2 actions, draw 3 cards, discard 2". Compared to a regular village, the net effect of the Warehouse here is "+1 action, +2 cards, discard 2", which is not as good as Warehouse was before, but still fine.

Overall I think Mountain Village is really strong. When you draw it with a lot of cards in your discard, it gets ridiculous, because you can chain all of the Mountain Villages before continuing with whatever action you want. (I tried with Scholar, which is interesting, but not directly a good synergy; you need lots of payload cards also also discard cards or at least don't draw, and sifters like Warehouse are not payloads.)

Title: Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
Post by: ipofanes on September 24, 2018, 04:55:55 pm
Sser is really quite good. If there's a board with mediocre cantrips, a vague amount of trashing, and maybe a Silver gainer, Seer turns that into a board where you could actually see your whole deck most turns.

We just had a 3p game where we first shared the castles and then went for provinces, whereas I stopped for a couple Forums plus X (no +buy in the Kingdom, who said that it was boring?) Discarding the $4 cards with Forums and then reaping the rewards with two Seers felt nice, but the icing was the two Bureaucrats I bought with my Forums, that were drawn by my Seers (along with the Silver they provided) and threw enough wrenches in my opponents' decks to allow me zipping past at the last but one turn.
Title: Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
Post by: Chappy7 on September 24, 2018, 05:29:35 pm

In my playing, it seems the anti-synergy can be mostly removed by playing around it appropriately. So, if you get Mountain Villages and Warehouses in the same deck, what you do is learn to discard a good card with Warehouse whenever necessary.


But if you are discarding a good card rather than a bad card that is just as bad as discarding a bad card and picking it back up.
Title: Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
Post by: jonts26 on September 24, 2018, 05:32:10 pm

In my playing, it seems the anti-synergy can be mostly removed by playing around it appropriately. So, if you get Mountain Villages and Warehouses in the same deck, what you do is learn to discard a good card with Warehouse whenever necessary.


But if you are discarding a good card rather than a bad card that is just as bad as discarding a bad card and picking it back up.

It still counteracts sifting. If your key card is 4 deep in the deck, forum and village gets you there but forum and MV doesn't.
Title: Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
Post by: Kirian on September 24, 2018, 06:27:48 pm
Priest would be broken with Watchtower and Travelling Fair. If you play two Priests and have a Watchtower in hand, you can alternate between buying Travelling fairs and Coppers (then curses) for a net gain of 112 coins, giving you more than enough money to buy all the provinces.

Oh, that's a really good catch.  Not sure there's any way around it except to acknowledge that any given 3-card combo will only show up once in every X games.  I don't know what X is but it should be in the thousands I think.
Title: Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
Post by: Doom_Shark on September 24, 2018, 07:04:34 pm
Priest would be broken with Watchtower and Travelling Fair. If you play two Priests and have a Watchtower in hand, you can alternate between buying Travelling fairs and Coppers (then curses) for a net gain of 112 coins, giving you more than enough money to buy all the provinces.

Oh, that's a really good catch.  Not sure there's any way around it except to acknowledge that any given 3-card combo will only show up once in every X games.  I don't know what X is but it should be in the thousands I think.

Considerably more I would think, considering there are greater than 10^63 possible kingdoms if I remember correctly from that one thread where we were trying to calculate that.
Title: Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
Post by: J Reggie on September 24, 2018, 07:15:34 pm
And with every expansion it gets to be more!
Title: Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
Post by: GendoIkari on September 24, 2018, 07:19:33 pm
Priest would be broken with Watchtower and Travelling Fair. If you play two Priests and have a Watchtower in hand, you can alternate between buying Travelling fairs and Coppers (then curses) for a net gain of 112 coins, giving you more than enough money to buy all the provinces.

Oh, that's a really good catch.  Not sure there's any way around it except to acknowledge that any given 3-card combo will only show up once in every X games.  I don't know what X is but it should be in the thousands I think.

Well not sure how it's different when it's 2 cards an event instead of 3 cards, but pretty sure the chance of a random Kingdom having a specific 3 cards is way way less than "thousands". I think it's to the point where we should simply never expect a random game to ever encounter it.
Title: Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
Post by: j6m2m6j on September 24, 2018, 07:24:11 pm
Priest would be broken with Watchtower and Travelling Fair. If you play two Priests and have a Watchtower in hand, you can alternate between buying Travelling fairs and Coppers (then curses) for a net gain of 112 coins, giving you more than enough money to buy all the provinces.
I was actually able to pull this off on turn 9 of Game #18634180 with Salt the Earth instead of Watchtower. After playing three Priests, I alternated between buying Travelling Fairs and Salt the Earths until I trashed the Provinces.
Title: Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
Post by: Chris is me on September 24, 2018, 07:49:15 pm
You could also use Travellinng Fair and Bonfire with 4 or more Priests to produce $3 or more per card you have in play. Could be a useful last turn gambit, and hey that's just a two card combo.
Title: Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
Post by: pacovf on September 24, 2018, 07:51:07 pm
You could also use Travellinng Fair and Bonfire with 4 or more Priests to produce $3 or more per card you have in play. Could be a useful last turn gambit, and hey that's just a two card combo.

That’s still three, Priest+Travelling Fair+Bonfire.
Title: Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
Post by: vishwathg on September 24, 2018, 08:22:33 pm
A couple hours ago, I played a game where I inherited Seers. I started drawing deck on turn 9.
Title: Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
Post by: Commodore Chuckles on September 24, 2018, 10:26:51 pm
First impressions:

Seer is fun. It's a Scout that's actually satisfying. Its strength seems very conditional; even on boards where it has bonkers potential it's limited by its self-antisynergy. The deck-rearranging can help you get the most out of it though. It's pretty great with Baron since Baron is $4 and Estate is $2. Drawing 3 Barons with it was awesome.

Scholar is also fun. It's Minion without the stupid! I think it's probably better than Library. It can't set aside actions, but clearing your hand of dead cards for the next 7 is pretty great.

Priest I haven't been impressed by, yet. It seems like you need a lot in place for its potential to be unleashed; it didn't do much on the boards I've played with it.

Experiment: hard to know what to make of this yet. It seems like usually you'll want to use them as soon as you can, since not playing them when you draw them effectively makes them anti-labs (i.e. dead cards.)

Mountain Village: haven't played with it yet but it looks... weak? It seems to have similar problems as Harbinger.

Oh, and Seer + Experiment.
Title: Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
Post by: Ethan on September 24, 2018, 11:23:38 pm
do less is do more. wonderful cards
Title: Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
Post by: Jacob marley on September 24, 2018, 11:58:00 pm
Ironworks+Experiment = The gift that keeps on giving.
Title: Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
Post by: sorawotobu on September 25, 2018, 12:12:08 am
Ironworks+Experiment = The gift that keeps on giving.

Just played a game where my draw engine was Experiment+Talisman+Tracker. I gained ~30 Experiments.
Title: Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
Post by: greybirdofprey on September 25, 2018, 06:08:51 am
Priest likes Treasure/Night trashers obviously.

Good luck spending that money at night.

I wanted to say 'Devil's Workshop + Villa' but there's that 'if it's your buy phase'-clause. As far as I can find there is no niche case where you can benefit from the virtual coin you can get with priest + night trashers.

Priest I haven't been impressed by, yet. It seems like you need a lot in place for its potential to be unleashed; it didn't do much on the boards I've played with it.

To use it for virtual coin in an engine you need actions, draw, gainers, buy.
But even to get the extra benefit ONCE you need a village, a Priest, something to trash with the Priest, something else that can trash, and something else to trash with the something else that can trash (ignoring combinations of said components). That's a lot to line up.

I haven't played with it but it looks like it will usually play like an early-game Salvager or Moneylender.

Also, how good is the 'card from discard into hand' on Mountain Village?


Title: Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
Post by: Donald X. on September 25, 2018, 06:15:24 am
As far as I can find there is no niche case where you can benefit from the virtual coin you can get with priest + night trashers.
It's Ball.
Title: Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
Post by: greybirdofprey on September 25, 2018, 06:35:29 am
As far as I can find there is no niche case where you can benefit from the virtual coin you can get with priest + night trashers.
It's Ball.

Nice.

I totally forgot about the -$1 token.
Title: Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
Post by: Asper on September 25, 2018, 07:05:34 am
As far as I can find there is no niche case where you can benefit from the virtual coin you can get with priest + night trashers.
It's Ball.

Or Capital.
Title: Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
Post by: Cuzz on September 25, 2018, 10:10:58 am
Before Priest, how many ways were there to generate $ during your buy phase? Was it just +$1 token on Crown/Plunder/Rocks?

Its interesting then that + X Coffers is not always preferable to + $X, since the Coffers you get from Merchant Guild during the buy phase are not available until the next turn.

I wonder if Priest was tested with giving Coffers instead.
Title: Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
Post by: Awaclus on September 25, 2018, 10:25:28 am
Before Priest, how many ways were there to generate $ during your buy phase? Was it just +$1 token on Crown/Plunder/Rocks?

There was also spending coin tokens.
Title: Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
Post by: faust on September 25, 2018, 10:29:17 am
Before Priest, how many ways were there to generate $ during your buy phase? Was it just +$1 token on Crown/Plunder/Rocks?
Well, almost all Treasure cards :P

The unique thing Priest does is generate $ after you have already bought a card in the same buy phase.
Title: Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
Post by: mameluke on September 25, 2018, 10:34:08 am
Before Priest, how many ways were there to generate $ during your buy phase? Was it just +$1 token on Crown/Plunder/Rocks?

Merchant?
Title: Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
Post by: crj on September 25, 2018, 11:18:20 am
As far as I can find there is no niche case where you can benefit from the virtual coin you can get with priest + night trashers.
It's Ball.
Or Capital.
I've just noticed discarding Capital lets you pay off any debt, not just the Capital's debt.

Now I'm wondering about fancy tricks to clear an epic Mountain Pass debt...
Title: Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
Post by: crj on September 25, 2018, 11:21:07 am
I'm also wondering why Wine Merchant triggers on end of Buy phase rather than during Clean-up. Good for Villa shenanigans; bad for Priest shenanigans.
Title: Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
Post by: Holunder9 on September 25, 2018, 03:30:57 pm
Some basic net effects analysis: gaining Experiments via Workshop is a delayed, "smeared" (unlike Durations potentially distributed over more than just the next turn) Moat whereas gaining them via Ironworks is a delayed, "smeared" Laboratory.
Title: Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
Post by: King Leon on September 25, 2018, 04:03:24 pm
Priest and Scholar should have “you may ... if you do ...”, because of Golem and Herald.
Title: Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
Post by: LastFootnote on September 25, 2018, 04:28:43 pm
Priest and Scholar should have “you may ... if you do ...”, because of Golem and Herold.

Why?

EDIT: Do you mean Harald?
Title: Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
Post by: King Leon on September 25, 2018, 04:38:11 pm
Priest and Scholar should have “you may ... if you do ...”, because of Golem and Herold.

Why?

EDIT: Do you mean Harald?

Fixed it. Btw: Golem + Tactician + Scholar is nice, although Library would work better than Scholar here. But if you reveal Menagerie and Scholar with Golem, you probably don't want to play Scholar.
Title: Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
Post by: GendoIkari on September 25, 2018, 04:41:53 pm
Priest and Scholar should have “you may ... if you do ...”, because of Golem and Herold.

Why?

EDIT: Do you mean Harald?

Is this intentional?
Title: Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
Post by: Squidd on September 25, 2018, 04:44:07 pm
Some cards are risky to put in a Golem/Herald deck. That's fine.
Title: Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
Post by: King Leon on September 25, 2018, 04:45:50 pm
Some cards are risky to put in a Golem/Herald deck. That's fine.
You mean Trade Route, Forager and Rats?
Title: Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
Post by: GendoIkari on September 25, 2018, 04:50:58 pm
Some cards are risky to put in a Golem/Herald deck. That's fine.
You mean Trade Route, Forager and Rats?

And Upgrade, and Junk Dealer. And Masquerade. And Remake. And Forge. Trading Post. Count. Remodel, Replace, Expand, Develop, Stonemason, Zombie Mason, Exorcist, Dismantle. Salvager, Apprentice, Bishop, Trader.

Those too.

*Edit* Oh, Lookout and Small Castle. And Catapult.

And Island. Technically Ambassador also.
Title: Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
Post by: LastFootnote on September 25, 2018, 04:56:18 pm
Is this intentional?

Yeah, it was.
Title: Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
Post by: LostPhoenix on September 25, 2018, 05:00:37 pm
Some cards are risky to put in a Golem/Herald deck. That's fine.
You mean Trade Route, Forager and Rats?

And Upgrade, and Junk Dealer. And Masquerade. And Remake. And Forge. Trading Post. Count. Remodel, Replace, Expand, Develop, Stonemason, Zombie Mason, Exorcist, Dismantle. Salvager, Apprentice, Bishop, Trader.

Those too.

*Edit* Oh, Lookout and Small Castle. And Catapult.

And Island. Technically Ambassador also.

i.e. any mandatory trashers.
Title: Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
Post by: King Leon on September 25, 2018, 05:04:27 pm
Some cards are risky to put in a Golem/Herald deck. That's fine.
You mean Trade Route, Forager and Rats?

And Upgrade, and Junk Dealer. And Masquerade. And Remake. And Forge. Trading Post. Count. Remodel, Replace, Expand, Develop, Stonemason, Zombie Mason, Exorcist, Dismantle. Salvager, Apprentice, Bishop, Trader.

Those too.

*Edit* Oh, Lookout and Small Castle. And Catapult.

And Island. Technically Ambassador also.

i.e. any mandatory trashers.

And other stuff like Mandarin or Leprechaun.
Title: Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
Post by: Jacob marley on September 25, 2018, 05:16:50 pm
Priest I haven't been impressed by, yet. It seems like you need a lot in place for its potential to be unleashed; it didn't do much on the boards I've played with it.

I managed a double tac engine where payload was 6 markets, 2 couriers and 2 priests.  I was able to double province and didn't run out of fuel.  I was actually surprised it worked, but it was fun to play.
Title: Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
Post by: Donald X. on September 25, 2018, 05:51:43 pm
I wonder if Priest was tested with giving Coffers instead.
It was (with +1 Coffers).
Title: Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
Post by: vishwathg on September 25, 2018, 06:54:33 pm
Priest I haven't been impressed by, yet. It seems like you need a lot in place for its potential to be unleashed; it didn't do much on the boards I've played with it.

I managed a double tac engine where payload was 6 markets, 2 couriers and 2 priests.  I was able to double province and didn't run out of fuel.  I was actually surprised it worked, but it was fun to play.

What's a Courier?
Title: Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
Post by: GendoIkari on September 25, 2018, 07:01:24 pm
Priest I haven't been impressed by, yet. It seems like you need a lot in place for its potential to be unleashed; it didn't do much on the boards I've played with it.

I managed a double tac engine where payload was 6 markets, 2 couriers and 2 priests.  I was able to double province and didn't run out of fuel.  I was actually surprised it worked, but it was fun to play.

What's a Courier?

I assume it's supposed to be Courtier (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Courtier).
Title: Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
Post by: Asper on September 25, 2018, 07:36:55 pm
Priest I haven't been impressed by, yet. It seems like you need a lot in place for its potential to be unleashed; it didn't do much on the boards I've played with it.

I managed a double tac engine where payload was 6 markets, 2 couriers and 2 priests.  I was able to double province and didn't run out of fuel.  I was actually surprised it worked, but it was fun to play.

What's a Courier?

I assume it's supposed to be Courtier (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Courtier).

Could also be Messenger, which has a similar name in certain languages.
Title: Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
Post by: Jacob marley on September 25, 2018, 11:37:24 pm
Priest I haven't been impressed by, yet. It seems like you need a lot in place for its potential to be unleashed; it didn't do much on the boards I've played with it.

I managed a double tac engine where payload was 6 markets, 2 couriers and 2 priests.  I was able to double province and didn't run out of fuel.  I was actually surprised it worked, but it was fun to play.

What's a Courier?

I assume it's supposed to be Courtier (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Courtier).

Could also be Messenger, which has a similar name in certain languages.

Yes, I meant Courtier
Title: Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
Post by: Minotaur on September 26, 2018, 05:20:17 am
I feel like this Seer has overseen a lot of Experiments.
Title: Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
Post by: ipofanes on September 26, 2018, 07:58:38 am
Some cards are risky to put in a Golem/Herald deck. That's fine.
You mean Trade Route, Forager and Rats?

And Upgrade, and Junk Dealer. And Masquerade. And Remake. And Forge. Trading Post. Count. Remodel, Replace, Expand, Develop, Stonemason, Zombie Mason, Exorcist, Dismantle. Salvager, Apprentice, Bishop, Trader.

Those too.

*Edit* Oh, Lookout and Small Castle. And Catapult.

And Island. Technically Ambassador also.

OK by merit of which edge case do I get Zombie Mason into a Herald or Golem deck?
Title: Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
Post by: ipofanes on September 26, 2018, 08:00:17 am
I feel like this Seer has overseen a lot of Experiments.

Experiments are more successful if you prepare them with a Plan.
Title: Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
Post by: Awaclus on September 26, 2018, 08:01:02 am
OK by merit of which edge case do I get Zombie Mason into a Herald or Golem deck?

You have a Lurker in your deck, your Herald or Golem plays it, and you don't want to make any piles smaller by trashing cards from them because otherwise your opponent might 3-pile.
Title: Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
Post by: Simon Jester on September 26, 2018, 08:04:49 am
OK by merit of which edge case do I get Zombie Mason into a Herald or Golem deck?

You have a Lurker in your deck, your Herald or Golem plays it, and you don't want to make any piles smaller by trashing cards from them because otherwise your opponent might 3-pile.

or just Rouge. (that card have failed me so many times #neverattacks)
Title: Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
Post by: Awaclus on September 26, 2018, 08:11:29 am
or just Rouge. (that card have failed me so many times #neverattacks)

Is Rouge another card from Renaissance?
Title: Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
Post by: Oyvind on September 26, 2018, 08:15:55 am
or just Rouge. (that card have failed me so many times #neverattacks)

Is Rouge another card from Renaissance?

I was thinking the same. It's probably an attack that never attacks, with a card type of Make-up.
Title: Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
Post by: infangthief on September 26, 2018, 08:31:49 am
or just Rouge. (that card have failed me so many times #neverattacks)

Is Rouge another card from Renaissance?
I think Rouge is a drac from Drak Sage.
Title: Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
Post by: infangthief on September 26, 2018, 08:59:54 am
I like Scholar here.
I mean, I like the way that draw-to-X cards hold out that promise of reigniting your turn after you've done some discarding/trashing. Like I used to dream of Chapelling away dross, then playing Library and pow off you go again. But it's hardly ever worth going for in practice because where are you going to get enough actions from?

Now we have Villagers, so all those dreams can come true.
Recruit a Gold, do some Priest trashing, play a Bandit to replace the Gold, then play Scholar and keep going.

Yes, any draw-to-X would do, but I'm glad we've got one here in the set that introduces Villagers.
Title: Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
Post by: cascadestyler on September 26, 2018, 12:41:33 pm
Mountain Village is superb with Messenger. It's probably the best synergy with the "discard your deck" mechanic that I've seen.
Title: Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
Post by: Trogdor the Burninator on September 26, 2018, 01:19:03 pm
Mountain Village is amazing when played after you play a card that gains you something. I just had a game (vs. a bot) with Magpie and it was really nice to be able to deploy gained Magpies immediately with the Mountain Villages, and I'm sure there's countless other similar situations, especially with the "gain a card costing up to X" cards where Mountain Village will come in really handy.


I'm not sure if this has been mentioned before, but Mountain Village + Villa has the potential to be a powerful combo because if you save a Mountain Village until after you buy a Villa, and you have bought card(s) previously, then Villa could be used to get those Mountain Village(s) in play, which could then be used to get all the card(s) you just bought that turn, in play that turn. This is purely theoretical at this moment, as I've not tested it but it seems like it could work, and work really well in some engine games.


Title: Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
Post by: King Leon on September 27, 2018, 02:39:47 am
I just realized how good Seer is in a Silver+Gardens deck (a lot better than Scout btw.) And this set has a lot of stuff with +Buy. I am excited ...
Title: Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
Post by: ipofanes on September 27, 2018, 05:41:25 am
Experiment is Actors Troupe for cards I guess, apart from they clog your deck while unused.
Title: Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
Post by: ipofanes on September 27, 2018, 05:44:08 am
Has anyone tried Seers and Magpies? I have, but found it wasn't as fast as I had hoped.
Title: Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
Post by: jamfamsam on September 27, 2018, 09:50:05 am
Maybe someone mentioned this already, but Mountain Village has significant value helping you get through the Page and Peasant lines. It's somewhat luck dependent, of course, but getting to the end of the line with those a shuffle or two earlier than your opponent can be important.
Title: Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
Post by: arishipshape on September 27, 2018, 02:28:03 pm
Like if the first thing you thought when you saw Scholar was "ITS PROFESSOR SYCAMORE!"
Title: Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
Post by: King Leon on September 27, 2018, 08:00:46 pm
Like if the first thing you thought when you saw Scholar was "ITS PROFESSOR SYCAMORE!"

Nope, I thought, it was Professor Oak. But you are more precise, because Oak is a normal Trainer card (nowadays called ltem card) and thus non-terminal, where Sycamore and Juniper are Supporter cards, which are comparable to terminal actions in the Dominion world.
Title: Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
Post by: greybirdofprey on September 28, 2018, 08:31:34 am
Like if the first thing you thought when you saw Scholar was "ITS PROFESSOR SYCAMORE!"

I thought "I am a scholar. Neat."
Title: Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
Post by: arishipshape on September 28, 2018, 03:26:39 pm
Like if the first thing you thought when you saw Scholar was "ITS PROFESSOR SYCAMORE!"

Nope, I thought, it was Professor Oak. But you are more precise, because Oak is a normal Trainer card (nowadays called ltem card) and thus non-terminal, where Sycamore and Juniper are Supporter cards, which are comparable to terminal actions in the Dominion world.

Finally, someone on the internet that actually recognized all the nuance and complexities of what I posted! And from another card game no less!

More importantly, would experiment plus a few lurkers make them basically labs? Seeing as lurker "gains" from the trash whenever you get one from the trash you get another from the supply, offsetting the card it took you to gain it again.
Title: Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
Post by: King Leon on September 28, 2018, 03:54:22 pm
How many Experiments are there? We have 12 Ports, will we also have 12 Experiments?
Title: Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
Post by: werothegreat on September 28, 2018, 03:58:59 pm
How many Experiments are there? We have 12 Ports, will we also have 12 Experiments?

Just 10.  The fact that they return to the Supply makes it fine.
Title: Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
Post by: ben_king on September 28, 2018, 04:00:08 pm
How many Experiments are there? We have 12 Ports, will we also have 12 Experiments?

At least on the digital client, it's only 10.  And based on the numbers Donald X. has provided, it will need to be 10 to make the math work out.

The split of Ports tends to be important.  12 splits evenly for 2, 3, and 4 players.  The split doesn't matter as much for Experiments, since they go back to the pile.
Title: Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
Post by: dane-m on September 28, 2018, 05:13:16 pm
The split of Ports tends to be important.  12 splits evenly for 2, 3, and 4 players.  The split doesn't matter as much for Experiments, since they go back to the pile.
Although 12 splits evenly for four players, six, which is the number of buys it takes to clear the Ports pile, doesn't.
Title: Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
Post by: Reykjavik on September 28, 2018, 10:14:48 pm
Mountain village is one of my new favorite cards, the synergy with scrying pool is pretty sweet, it also does beastly things with travelers, and any time you need to line two specific cards up (prince, legionnaire, encampment, tournament, etc). It doesn't play well with some sifters, but it isn't unplayable there. It actually does play pretty nice with cellar, because for each mountain village in your hand you can discard an extra good card to be picked back up, which isn't any better than playing a vanilla village first, then cellar, but it isn't any worse either.

Mountain village just gives you a lot of control, and drawing 1 card of your choice out of a potentially fairly large pool is pretty strong. It doesn't cycle your deck as much, but what you get in return is so much more flexibility.
Title: Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
Post by: The_Wine_Merchant on September 29, 2018, 12:17:29 am
I am a bit inebriated, but I actually read the entire introductory paragraph before reading the actual cards. Been a way from Dominion for a while, so wasn't aware until now that there was a new set.
Title: Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
Post by: Minotaur on September 29, 2018, 09:37:22 am
Seer does pretty well with Cellar.  Much better than Cellar-Laboratory.  $10, 2 Buys is pretty great in a Cellar-Seer board.
Title: Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
Post by: GendoIkari on September 30, 2018, 03:27:39 pm
Maybe this will be in the Secret History, but...

Given the question asked here (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=19033.0), which indeed seems like it may be a common source of confusion... is there a reason that Priest isn't simply "While this is play"? Of course it would be weaker when combo'd with Throne Room, Procession, etc... but in most situations it should play the same, and end up just being much simpler wording with less need for tracking.

Asking because other cards moved towards the "while this is play" to help with tracking issues, such as the change from Bridge to Highway.
Title: Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
Post by: crj on September 30, 2018, 04:01:44 pm
Given how many cards are "while this is in play", I'm forced to conclude that Priest was intentionally strengthened. Who knows how many other opportunities there are in Renaissance to play a card twice and/or trash a card that's in play?

What surprises me more is why the wording wasn't "For the rest of this turn, when you trash a card, +$2. Trash a card from your hand." That would be a little more powerful with Sewers, a little weaker when Priest was the last card in your hand, but those feel pretty minor, and I at least find that wording a lot clearer.

I mean, I only had to read Priest twice to get it, even with the current wording, but still...
Title: Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
Post by: Minotaur on September 30, 2018, 04:13:31 pm
Given how many cards are "while this is in play", I'm forced to conclude that Priest was intentionally strengthened. Who knows how many other opportunities there are in Renaissance to play a card twice and/or trash a card that's in play?

What surprises me more is why the wording wasn't "For the rest of this turn, when you trash a card, +$2. Trash a card from your hand." That would be a little more powerful with Sewers, a little weaker when Priest was the last card in your hand, but those feel pretty minor, and I at least find that wording a lot clearer.

I mean, I only had to read Priest twice to get it, even with the current wording, but still...

DXV just wants his Priest-Sewer board to be the most incorrectly-played game of 2018 printed edition.
Title: Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
Post by: Donald X. on September 30, 2018, 07:34:39 pm
Given the question asked here (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=19033.0), which indeed seems like it may be a common source of confusion... is there a reason that Priest isn't simply "While this is play"? Of course it would be weaker when combo'd with Throne Room, Procession, etc... but in most situations it should play the same, and end up just being much simpler wording with less need for tracking.

Asking because other cards moved towards the "while this is play" to help with tracking issues, such as the change from Bridge to Highway.
My feeling for some years was that "while this is in play" was better than "this turn," as evidenced by e.g. Bridge Troll not matching Bridge. But, focused on simplicity for Renaissance, I decided that "this turn" was actually the simpler thing. People get tripped up by "while this is in play" in various ways. The card will normally be in play - I don't need to blame new cards for Procession.

If I had anticipated the Sewers question, I would have looked harder at putting the "this turn" ability ahead of the trashing on Priest. It was something I considered, but it seemed simpler to have the +$2 at the top, and well I didn't anticipate the question.
Title: Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
Post by: Fuu on October 12, 2018, 07:49:27 pm
Scholar is like Professor Oak from Pokémon, which is cute.

Like if the first thing you thought when you saw Scholar was "ITS PROFESSOR SYCAMORE!"

I just started playing Pokémon online a few days before the preview, so yes this was definitely my first thought, and the name "Scholar" seemed like a nod to this.
Title: Re: Renaissance Previews #1: Mountain Village, Priest, Seer, Scholar, Experiment
Post by: Jeebus on January 03, 2019, 12:18:17 am
Another card that interacts directly with Sewers: Forager!
You can trash a Copper, then trash a Silver with Sewers before Forager checks the trash. Not going to matter very often, but theoretically.