Dominion Strategy Forum
Dominion => Variants and Fan Cards => Topic started by: Aquila on May 10, 2018, 12:12:24 pm
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Dominion: Dynasties
One day, I thought up the idea of a type on a kingdom card that gave other piles the type and interacted with them somehow. It looked pretty to me. What would work for flavour? Tribes seemed obvious. How would it play? Well players have to figure out what's going on before anything else. After dabbling a bit with this type, I made other cards to go with them, and then a set idea was born.
Dynasties has a playstyle theme of start-of-game analysis, focusing on that period just after the game is set up when you're thinking out your strategy. It should be great for people who like Dominion as a strategy game and play it often. It also seems to lend itself well to solitaire games.
Composition
- about 8 Kin-type piles
- 2 Kin markers
- 6 Induct markers
- at least 20 Tasks
- 10 Chiefs
- 24 non-Kin kingdom piles
- VP tokens
This makes for 392 cards. The remaining 8 can go on Tasks or more Chiefs as and when I'm getting to round the set off.
NEW MECHANICS
Below the explanation, I put up an example game.
The Kin type
Here's that pretty-looking type.
(https://trello.com/1/cards/5ea9eb5ec2b06a535434b59d/attachments/6154a7ff8ad7dd7fc34a2558/download/Kin_Marker.png)(https://trello.com/1/cards/5ea9eb5ec2b06a535434b59d/attachments/6154a7ff8ad7dd7fc34a2558/download/Kin_Marker.png)
Kin Marker
When a Kin card is added to the game, put the 2 Kin Markers under different non-Kin kingdom piles after setup. This game, cards from those piles are also Kins.
Let's establish some terminology to avoid confusion: there are kingdom cards that have the Kin type on their bottom banner and a turquoise colour scheme. These are original Kins. If an original Kin is selected for the kingdom, get the Kin Markers out ready for after setup. No more than two original Kin piles should be selected; if you use randomiser cards, discard any original Kins drawn after the second and reselect. This helps to prevent analysis paralysis from too much interaction going on.
After setup - all ten kingdom cards and landscapes out, and anything extra they require done - each player selects a different pile that isn't an original Kin, starting with the player taking the first turn, for the Kin Markers to go under. If there are more than two players, shuffle a card from each chosen pile to randomly select two of them (returning those cards afterwards). Tuck the Kin Markers under each selected pile sideways, so the 'Kin' words show. Now, for the rest of the game, cards in those piles take on the Kin type; they'll all get one more thing for Courtier, and they'll all trigger Falconer.
So, the Kin type gets a new colour because it needs to give a clear visible reminder of what cards are affected by the original Kin's abilities. The original Kins will always affect themselves unless otherwise specified.
Quests
If Donald can reuse the name Menagerie, I can reuse Quest! It's the perfect word for these landscape cards. They have an Objective for players to complete, and a Reward for when they do. Players get some Completion tokens to put on Quests they complete (imagine coloured chits with ticks on), tracking similarly to Project cubes. A Quest can only be completed once. During the game, in a similar manner to using a Reaction effect, a player may interrupt game flow and declare they have completed one of the Quests, prove it to the other players if necessary, then put one of their Completion tokens on the Quest card and get the Reward straight away. A player can choose not to complete a Quest when they could do so.
The Quest cards should be kept separate from the other landscape cards you have, in two decks: one for Quests that can be completed in any game, and one for those that can't. 5 Quests (may change after playtesting) are put out per game, and they will count as one of the two landscapes recommended. They are always added to the game last.
Determining what Quests to include in a game when is quite liberal, since some Objectives require certain mechanics to be present in the kingdom (like 'trash 4 cards' requires a trasher), and players do well to pick all the Quests that are possible, shuffle them together, then draw 5 out. This is what I encourage.
For those who like following strict rules: some Quests could be shuffled into your WELPs, according to your desired odds of drawing one, and if one is drawn out randomly select others until you get 5. You might just shuffle all the Quests in, and if one of the first two is a Quest keep going through the deck of landscapes until 5 doable Quests are drawn out.
In addition to this, several of the kingdom cards in this set have extra banners on them, just like with Heirlooms, attaching a Quest to them. When one of these is selected, there will always be Quests. Shuffle all named Quest cards into the deck of possible Quests and draw 5 out (the named Quests may not appear; force them into the game if so desired).
* * *
So: the Kin type has players examine the interaction between all the Kin cards in the game, so they factor them in when deciphering their deck strategy. Quests give players recommended routes to take throughout the game, so there's planning ahead as well.
In terms of set design:- Original Kins give a positive and negative impact to the other Kins, so what interactions are strong and weak is not always easy to assess.
- The other kingdom piles aim to be simple, so it's easier to see how Kins may affect them.
- They're also diverse, so Quests can more likely be doable.
- They also avoid randomness as much as possible, since strategy is the big focus.
Chiefs are a powerful non-Supply pile, obtained as rewards for various Tasks and other cards' mini-games.
Example game
CARD LIST
(https://trello.com/1/cards/5ea9ebc8b4a9d12cc55b5579/attachments/6151b41e4b2fea5883befaa2/download/Banner_mock-up.png)(https://trello.com/1/cards/5ea9ebcd7360f382b646287f/attachments/61503346658e0e51fb264cf8/download/Festival_Grounds.png)(https://trello.com/1/cards/5ea9ec51719dd259ce9ba0fa/attachments/615033aede244a474051c210/download/Legend.png)(https://trello.com/1/cards/5ea9ec62a837ae23e35dfe51/attachments/6150620262667745efd4c669/download/Reassign.png)(https://trello.com/1/cards/5ea9ebd8bcc73c156f0808b2/attachments/615033744605086cfd2f458e/download/PeTravelling_Merchant.png)
(https://trello.com/1/cards/5ea9edf0c81b122c9b0c91c4/attachments/6154bb12480a1c313f9eaa0d/download/TaskAppease.png)(https://trello.com/1/cards/5ea9ec827e01e55ca3b47d26/attachments/6154babfa2a8bf7ac6baf08c/download/TaskBuild.png)(https://trello.com/1/cards/5ea9ec8660243713b668e8ca/attachments/6154bad1f54419322ac70cf7/download/TaskDemolish.png)(https://trello.com/1/cards/5ea9ec7e1c85788b19fa978d/attachments/6154a6618789d43c641da585/download/TaskImpress.png)(https://trello.com/1/cards/5ea9ec954674bd2c77ffcfe7/attachments/6154baefde585d17256cae5b/download/TaskInvestigate.png)
INDIVIDUAL CARDS
I give my positives (+) and negatives (-) on each design, not out of lack of confidence but for modesty. It is a set, so there are combos I'll keep quiet about so you can have the fun of finding them.
Original Kins
Banner - Victory Kin, $5 cost.
Worth 1VP per 3 Kins in your deck (round down)
It makes an alt VP strategy that will be different each game. The more collectable the other Kins are, the better it is.
+: one of the first simple ideas that clicked, it feels safe yet compelling.
-: hard to conclude balance.
Festival Grounds - Action Kin, $2 cost.
+2 Actions
+1 Buy
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In games using this, when you gain a 3rd differently named Kin on your turn, you may gain a Chief.
Chief - Action Kin, $0* cost.
Draw until you have 6. cards in hand.
Gain an Estate to your hand for +2VP.
For every 3 cards you have in hand (round down), + $1.
(This is not in the Supply.)
If you can get three different Kins in the same turn, you win the respect of the Chief, a free payload card that plays a little differently in different decks. How hard will he be to get, what kind of deck would be made, and is it all worth it?
+: all the analysis involved here is great.
-: perhaps Chief is too strong, and the $ effect should probably go first so it's more a case of $ or draw.
Legend - Treasure Kin, $4 cost.
+1 Buy
When you play this, choose one: gain a Kin; or trash a Kin you have in hand or in play, for + $1 per $1 it costs.
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In games using this, when you gain a Kin, each other player gets +1VP.
Every Kin you get leaves a permanent mark against your score, yet whilst you might look for Kin free strategies this can make them still options. Getting Kins no matter how expensive can be a breeze if you so desire, or you can Salvage them non-terminally. Failing all else this can self trash for a spike of $4.
+: This supports dabbling a little into the Kins, which the bottom part implies.
-: no real testing yet, could be imbalanced.
Mead Hall - Action Command Kin, $5 cost.
Trash this. If you do, set aside two Kins from the Supply that aren't Victories, Durations or Commands. Play them in either order, leaving them set aside. Return them to the Supply at Clean-up.
Fuse two Kins into one powerful one-shot card, including Treasures or Nights. Double up one of them, or form some amazing combo.
+: it has the feeling of being great fun sometimes.
-: some combos could be broken? And of course in some games this can do nothing.
Piper - Action Reaction Kin, $5 cost.
+2 Cards
You may play an Action Kin from your hand.
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Directly after resolving an Action Kin, you may play this from your hand.
Make an engine by playing chains of Kins.
+: simple yet compelling.
-: maybe too strong in some cases. There's no real negative side to it unlike the other Kins, so it's less about analysis, so it feels kinda misfit.
Reassign - Night Kin, $4 cost.
You may trash a Kin you have in play, to gain a Kin costing up to $3 more than it.
You may move your Ally token onto a non-Victory, non-Kin Supply pile of your choice. (During your turns, cards from that pile are also Kins.)
The Ally token lets you choose a pile that counts as Kin type just for you, which sometimes will be very desirable with a second Kin card. Reassign itself lets you quite freely exchange kins around, so you can make good upgrade paths; but note that the trash happens before the token can be moved, so there's a limit to the flexibility.
+: this hopefully opens up a new compelling area of remodeling, and the Ally token a new strategic concept.
-: The upgrade could be too strong even if narrow. Nights are in the set almost entirely because of this; is there a better effect than the upgrade that could be used?
Rivals - Action Attack Kin, $3* cost.
+2 Cards
Each other player may reveal a Kin other than Rivals from their hand. Those who don't take Taunted, or if they already have it turn it over to Twice Taunted.
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In games using this, Kins cost $1 more.
Taunted - State
When you next play an Action that has +Card, +Action, +Buy or +$ amounts in its instructions, choose one to reduce by 1, resolve it, then return this.
Twice Taunted - the same, but instead of returning it flip it over to Taunted.
Their presence makes the Tribe more expensive so generally worse (this basically costs $4, a sensible price unlike the others), and the worse they are the better this is. Its Attack will more likely land, weakening the next Action vanilla they get; two stacks, using a two-sided State for each player. Taunted reduces a number in the next Action's instructions, so Hireling would be made useless, and because you choose a number then resolve, Pawn is a counter to it.
+: it achieves the intended purpose of making Kins that are bad in a kingdom relevant.
-: How easy is it to remember the Kins cost $1 more? Is Taunted foolproof?
Travelling Merchant - Action Kin, $4 cost.
+1 Card
+1 Action
+ $1
This turn, cards cost $1 more if you have a Kin other than Travelling Merchant in play.
-
When you gain this, if you have any Kins in play, trash it.
You have a choice: either use these Peddlers, or use the other Kins. These only cost $4, but you can't gain them at all if you have one in play.
+: A simple but interesting matter to analyse in the game.
-: the bottom part could make this pretty bad, yet if it wasn't there it would probably be too good.
Other cards:
These aim to be simple and flexible to be most effective with Kins and Tasks, whilst forming combos using discarding, careful play order and the Buy phase as common themes.
Armoursmith - Action, $4 cost.
+4 Cards
If your deck and discard pile empty while this is in play, trash this.
-
You can't buy this unless you have a more expensive card than it in play.
Simple draw that can't be put in a full deck-draw engine so easily. It's rather strong early game, so you need to get more expensive cards or gainers first.
+: two pleasant twists to think around.
-: could easily be too strong with gainers.
Bridleway - Action, $6 cost.
+1 Buy
This turn, cards cost $2 less unless you've gained a copy of them during the turn.
Everything gets Princess-ed until they're gained; even if you gain something then play a Bridleway the cost isn't reduced. Effective if you get different things on your turn.
+: simple, powerful yet kept in check.
-: feels about right, I don't think there's anything bad with this?
Brute - Action Attack, $5 cost.
+ $3
Each other player who hasn't been affected by an Attack since their last turn reveals their hand and discards two cards that are the same.
This can be a nasty attack. Most of the time cards you have pairs of in hand will be useful, unless they're pure Victories in which case that hurts in itself. So, this can only work on those who haven't been attacked during the round of turns.
+: Definitely interacts with the set.
-: could be annoying in 3+ players when the player before you plays a different Attack first. Rules for 'being affected' by an Attack could be confusing; I'd have thought Pillage doesn't affect those who have 4 or fewer cards in hand since they're not its target. But with Rivals above everyone is a target, so they are affected whether they have a Kin in hand or not.
Caver - Action, $2 cost.
+2 Cards
If your deck is empty, + $2.
It can be a powerful +2 Cards + $2 when played at the right time, or it can be draw that changes its role once the deck is drawn.
+: Very simple, should be fun to try using well.
-: could be too strong for $2. Drawing it turn 4 when the other opening buy wasn't a drawer, so you draw the 2 cards that usually get left for turn 5, could make unpleasant random advantages.
Cooper - Action, $5 cost.
+1 Action
+ $1
Gain 2 Coppers to your hand. Then discard any number of cards and draw that many.
A fusion of Beggar and Cellar, making a flexible card that's initially powerful but slows down a little with the Coppers reducing how often you draw it.
+: Simple, diverse, has plenty of combos in the set, it fits right in but looks interesting out of it too.
-: some combos could be mundane (Engraver), and this has similarities to Goose.
Engraver - Action, $5 cost.
+1 Card
+1 Action
You may trash a Treasure from your hand. If you do: +1VP, or if you've trashed more than 1 Treasure this turn, +2VP.
A multipurpose card. A very desirable Copper trasher for an engine, or a dedicated VP strategy that burns through Coppers and the odd Silver.
+: it's simply nice.
-: games where players first empty out the Coppers and silvers before building to Provinces or 3-piling may not be pleasant.
Forester - Action, $4 cost.
+1 Buy
+ $2
Once this turn, when you gain a Treasure, you may play it.
A woodcutter that can easily inject money into the deck so that its +buy becomes useful throughout the game.
+: Really simple.
-: really boring maybe?
Goose - Action, $5 cost.
+1 Card
+1 Action
Choose one: +1 Card, discard a card; or + $1; or gain a Goose if you haven't yet this turn.
Fugitive or Peddler that can gain copies of itself slowly.
+: simple and effective.
-: it might be a little too much for a $5.
Highland Village - Action, $3 cost.
+1 Card
+2 Actions
Look through your remaining deck. Discard a card from it, then shuffle it.
How to make a plain Village interesting...? Here's one that works with the discarding theme, letting you get a key target in the discard pile or move some junk out of the way. 'Remaining deck' is what's currently in it after the +1 Card; if there are no cards in it, you don't shuffle the discard pile into a new deck.
+: simple, quite strong, fits the set but has plenty of use outside of it.
-: not for players who shuffle slowly!
Instruct - Action, $4 cost.
Do these in any order:
gain a Silver;
put a card from your discard pile into your hand;
trash a card from your hand and gain a card costing up to $1 more than it.
A fancy remodel that can do different things, from Workshop trash a Silver from the Supply, to remodel to hand with a Silver to bloat your deck, to getting generic good stuff.
+: Diverse remodel involving the discard pile.
-: maybe boring or too niche overall? Though some cards in a set need to be niche.
Neighbouring Village - Action, $3 cost.
+2 Actions
When you next play an Action from your hand this turn, add 1 more to each +Card, +Buy, +$ and +VP amount it gives you as you resolve it.
Village that likes careful thought as to play order, boosting the next Action you play from hand. Vault would be +3 Cards, discard any number of cards for +$1 each, then +$1 if you discarded any; you got a +$ amount then added 1 on to it, you did not add 1 to the instructions. 'Resolving' means the same as on Royal Carriage; Hireling doesn't give you anything as you resolve it so no bonus given, similarly to the VP from Goons and Groundskeeper.
+: it takes skill to use, careful lining up sitting well on a Village. It's unique especially with the VP niche.
-: the wording might be off, and the new mechanics confusing.
Potter - Action, $4 cost.
Gain a card costing up to $4. You may reveal an Action from your hand with the same cost as it, for +2VP.
A Workshop that can get you ahead on points if you play things right.
+: VP that involves some strategy and starting analysis.
-: Silvers may be points gained too easily with a $3 Action.
Scrounger - Night Attack, $5 cost.
Gain a Gold. Put up to 3 cards from your discard pile onto your deck in any order, then shuffle the rest and put them at the bottom.
Non-terminal Gold gainer, but those Golds will come slowly as this and everything else in play miss shuffles. You get some control over how the discard pile disappears into the deck, which can make both simple and complex play.
+: it could make unique deck strategies.
-: too strong despite missing shuffles?
Thane - Action, $5 cost.
Discard a card. You may play an Action from your discard pile twice.
Throne from the discard pile. Your handsize reduces in exchange for having a potentially large range of cards to search from, or if you discard your target from hand then it's of course Throne Room.
+: two effects that go together brilliantly.
-: some may not like the large search range to find a target, so that it's less skillful than other Thrones.
Weaponsmith - Action Attack, $5 cost.
+3 Cards
You may discard two cards. If they cost a total of $5 or more, each other player gains a Curse.
Discard something useful, more than 2 Estates, to launch an Attack.
+: It's a curser that works better later on.
-: some may not like the choice to discard in games where there's no self-benefit.
Tasks
Appease - Task
Objective: have 2 Duchies in your hand, revealed.
Reward: +4VP
Bring 2 Duchies together in peace. This may affect when you would normally get Duchies, as effectively bringing them up to 5VP each can be worth it.
+: A good way to make Duchies more relevant more often, and help deviate gameplay away from typical Province rush.
-: hard to find specific bad points with this one...
Build - Task
Objective: gain 4 cards on your turn.
Reward: +3VP; at the start of each of your turns, +1 Card.
Project effects can work as rewards, the Accomplish token serving the same purpose as the Project cube. Can you gain a big load of cards at once this game?
+: There are several different possible ways to complete this, to be a different experience each game.
-: it depends entirely on +buys or gainers being in the kingdom.
Demolish - Task
Objective: trash 4 cards on your turn.
Reward: +4VP, gain a Gold.
Can you trash a big load of cards at once this game?
+: There are several different possible ways to complete this, to be a different experience each game.
-: it depends entirely on a trasher being in the kingdom.
Explore - Task
Objective: have 8 differently named cards in play.
Reward: +5VP
The Horn of Plenty experience without the kingdom Treasure being there. How will the kingdom let you do it?
+: Some games will call for a variety strategy, a nice thing to let randomness decide.
-: sometimes impossible. Maybe not that fun. Investigate below might be enough of variety.
Gather - Task
Objective: produce $15 or more.
Reward: +1 Buy, +3VP
How easily can you get a big spike of money this game?
+: Always possible yet can take very different paths to get to.
-: if a double Province route is possible you'll probably go down it anyway.
Impress - Task
Objective: complete 2 other Tasks on the same turn.
Reward: +5VP, gain a Chief.
Extra points if you can complete the 2 other Tasks drawn together. You may want to wait declaring accomplishment for one so you can do this.
+: A simple extra twist to add.
-: how often will it be doable?
Investigate - Task
Objective: have a hand of 5 or more cards with no copies in it, revealed.
Reward: +3VP
Get a big enough hand of all different cards.
+: Always possible.
-: can be quite hard to remember.
Conclusions
Nothing stops you from playing with 3 or more of the original Kin cards, just too many can lead to analysis paralysis and too much going on. Having 2 opens up a fun interaction between them, just enough, or one can be influential on its own. I've tried to cover a wide variety of different relationships with them; one thing that's somewhat missing is one that completely supports other Kins. I'm working on it. At the least I hope I've got across the feel for compelling diversity and replayability I get with the Kin mechanic. But I have struggled with sound execution of it; maybe some of the ideas here still use it poorly. You be judge.
The Tasks are very much a work in progress. They're not very well designed for all random games (not necessarily a bad thing) and the rewards are likely not balanced. 3 seems like a sensible number to comprehend each game, but nothing says you can't do more or less.
If you have any ideas, feel free to post them; I don't pretend to know everything about the dos and don'ts of these mechanics.
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Now that I've got images working again, I've presented the first post hopefully better. I've also added 2 new cards, Gamekeeper and Telltale.
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Nothing like cool mock-ups to get people interested! I certainly think they and the example game will go along way in helping people to understand what's going on. It certainly did for me.
Now, on to first impressions:
Overall - I certainly like the Kin/Tribe idea; it's very fitting of the times. I'd get nervous about some Tribe combinations being so strong that the rest of the board is ignorable, but I guess some Dominion boards are going to being like that regardless. "In games using this" cards are great, but having one on every card is making my head spin a little bit. The are certainly straight forward enough, so maybe with a board in front of me and a bit more time with the ideas, they'd make more sense to me. Do you think any of these can be cut? Or do you think having one, random "Kin Landmark" per game would make the cards function more or less the same way? Again this is purely a first impression.
Mead Hall - I certainly like that at the very least this can trash, but for that reason I think it should cost at least $4, even despite it only being able to play two other Tribe cards. There doesn't seem to be any real setback to opening with this, versus Throne Room where buying it too early means there might just be an extra dead card in your deck. A double Mead Hall opening could even result in you trashing 3 cards before your 2nd shuffle (if they connect). If you're hoping to keep this cost low, I'd recommend dropping the trashing part.
Highland Village -
I like the interactions that cancel each other out. So Highland Village initially cost $5 with the setup effect? In a game where the Kin cards are not great, this would be an expensive Village. Making cost $4 ($3) seems fair.
Banner - A victory card that scores off Kin cards seems like a must, but I have no idea how balanced it is.
Gamekeeper - I'm bad at understanding draw cards so I should abstain from commenting on this one. :)
Telltale - This is quite the Attack against Kin cards. My first thought is that it should have some sort of cap on how many Curses a player can gain. A single card that can hand out more than one Curse per play seems like it would lead too unbalanced play. Of coarse reducing that means the +1 Coin Setup becomes even more powerful. This one makes me a bit nervous, but I'd love to hear if you've played any games with it and how it performed.
Overall - I think the Kin thing is a neat idea, I just wonder if there's a better way to pick Kin cards other than being random. Perhaps some sort of drafting system? Of coarse, as you stated, even bad cards seem to become quite powerful.
Are there more cards with the Kin type? Thanks for sharing!
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So, overall, I think this has potential, BUT, there is one glaring issue:
With multiple Kin cards in a game, you suddenly have a metric buttload of extra effects tacked on to a lot of different cards, as the cards that come with the kin type also get the extra effects. Even with just two Kins, it gets cwazy. I'll take your example kingdom, but replace Advancing Village with Highland Village (your non-kin custom card with the second kin from your original post). So, our new kingdom looks like:
Mead Hall, Highland Village, Pirate Ship (kin), Shanty Town (kin), Develop, Secret Passage, Mystic, Expand, Hoard, Sea Hag. (I made the original post on my phone, so if you have the handy dandy f.ds extension, turning on autolink cards will probably help your understanding of the post.)
You now have four kin cards, all of which now cost 1 more, are gained to your deck, and can trash a card before doing anything else. That's a helluvalot to track without any useful marker for each individual kin effect, just one token overall that says "hey, this is a kin card y'all!" And this is only with two Kins inthe kingdom! What happens when you get three? Or, god forbid, even more?
Back to our modified example kingdom, let's pretend that this is easy to track for a moment and run an example turn with a 4-3 split. On your four coin, buy Shanty Town, putting it onto your deck. On your three, you now are guaranteed to be able to trash an estate and have the potential a 4 in 5 chance to hit 4 coin again, all by purchasing one heavily modified Shanty Town.
Now, all that salt aside, I think the core concept is good, but the execution is waaaaaay off. Kin cards should have minor bonuses to reward you for playing other kin, not major game-warping ones. The "In games using this" text probably needs to go on a lot of those cards, replaced with minor on-play bonuses if you reveal a kin from your hand, or "while this is in play, when you <buy, trash, gain, etc.> a Kin, do <some effect>. You can have some "In games using this" stuff, but limiting it to only one or two cards would be a really good idea, as there is no good way to track them and, as I demonstrated above, having multiple kins at a time could get way out of hand otherwise.
I'll do specific card critiques when I'm at my computer. Critiques done below.
I'll say again, I really do think this has potential, but it needs to be toned way down of it's going to be balanced and fun. I'm being hyper-critical because I like the idea. That's just kinda the way I am. I apologize if I came off as harsh or rude
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OK, so I still couldn't sleep, so I decided to go to my computer and do card-by-card stuff. Here we go:
Mead Hall: I like the idea of a Kin-only throne, since you've built in setup rules to ensure you have at least two other throne-ables. The bottom half is what worries me; as I said in my other post, the "In games using this" text on all of these should in most cases be removed entirely and replaced with a small bonus. In fact, from here on out, I will be ignoring the bottom half unless I have something notable, and where I can, I will try to suggest a replacement. I don't think this one really needs a replacement for the bottom half, it's an elegant card once the bottom is removed.
Highland Village: Now that we've removed the bottom half, the card obviously needs to cost (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/7/7d/Coin5.png/16px-Coin5.png). If you really want, you could replace the second half of the bottom with "While this is in play, when you play a Kin, +(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/f/f7/Coin1.png/16px-Coin1.png)." I really don't think it's necessary though, and makes the card a bit more powerful than I would be comfortable with as a first draft. If playtesting makes it seem a bit weak, that can be added, but I think it should start without.
Banner: Yes, you're definitely right that this mechanic needs a victory card. Honestly, it doesn't need the drawback at the bottom, so I would straight up cut it like with the first two. Even then, the card feels off to me. Personally, I'd reduce the (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/9/92/VP.png/16px-VP.png) ratio and the cost, makes it feel better without actually making it too much better.
Gamekeeper: This...actually doesn't seem too bad. It seems like the best design out of the box. Being a dead-end, getting the kin back to your hand is a nice marginal bonus, and I like the idea of getting silver for buying more kin. Of course, I'd change the silver gain to a "While this is in play" rather than "In games using this," but you probably guessed that by now.
Telltale: The attack needs to be toned down a bit, maybe change it to "whenever a player plays their first Kin in a turn," or something similar. As usual, I'd replace the "In games using this" with "While this is in play"
Like I said before, the concept is good, the execution...not so much. But I think this mechanic can really be whipped into shape. And, the way the rules for the Kin type are written, you could technically throw it on Card-Shaped-Thingeys too, like an Event-Kin to put a kin from your discard onto your deck or a landmark-kin that hands out tokens for playing X amount of Kins in a turn.
I graduate today, so I'm going to have a ton of time on my hands if you want to try to turn this into a full-fledged set and would be willing to accept my help in doing so.
Edit: one last nitpicky thing, your rules for the kin type shoul reference non-Victory, non-Kin cards
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@Aquila: This is one of best concepts I have seen here. Great idea and to me all the cards (except perhaps for Gamekeeper which might better than Embassy as it net-draws one more and as it is even more "moneyish") look sound.
Mead Hall - I certainly like that at the very least this can trash, but for that reason I think it should cost at least $4, even despite it only being able to play two other Tribe cards. There doesn't seem to be any real setback to opening with this, versus Throne Room where buying it too early means there might just be an extra dead card in your deck. A double Mead Hall opening could even result in you trashing 3 cards before your 2nd shuffle (if they connect). If you're hoping to keep this cost low, I'd recommend dropping the trashing part.
I totally disagree. A dead terminal that trashes one card is superbad so opening Mead Hall is very likely to be wrong. Even if the other Kin card is something bad like Duchess or Chancellor you might prefer it as trasher due to the economy. And if something non-terminal, e.g. Pearl Diver, has been picked as Kin cards you will definitely prefer the cantrip trasher.
The strength of Mead Hall is not so much the card itself but the global effect it has on the Kingdom. Like any Throne Room variant it will only be bought once you have enough Actions in your deck. It cannot cost $4 as the Throning restriction and the ensuing matching risk doesn't compensate for the fact that Mead Hall can trash.
Mead Hall: I like the idea of a Kin-only throne, since you've built in setup rules to ensure you have at least two other throne-ables. The bottom half is what worries me; as I said in my other post, the "In games using this" text on all of these should in most cases be removed entirely and replaced with a small bonus.
This fix would totally castrate the concept and you wouldn't get all the Kin interactions.
If you worry about tracking becoming too messy you can simply only play with a maximum of 1 or 2 Kin cards.
If Dominion featured card-crafting like Mystic Vale the Kin concept could be implemented in an easy way to handle: push a second layer over the respective cards in the selected 2 Kin piles that contains the info that these cards are Kin cards and the global effect written on it.
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Ah I kept trying to make a post on these but never quite had the time and then forgot, oops!
My take on these is similar to DoomShark, I don't think you can go around tacking strong bonuses such as free trashing to cards - it will just make those cards overpowered! Obelisk can get away with a similar thing because the points don't actually do anything to accelerate your deck. Like if Pearl Diver is the Kin in a Mead Hall game Pearl Diver is just an overpowered card, you don't actually need to buy any Mead Halls to get the "tribal payoff", this seems off from the idea of a tribe working together.
Have you seen the card "Hunter" from my Ice Ages expansion? I think that is closer to what Kin cards should be like, below rate cards that become strong when combined with Kins. The change I would make to Mead Hall is have it be a $5 Throne Room that gives some kind of extra bonus if the card you throne is a Kin (and axe the global Kin modifying effect). Now you actually have to buy both Mead Hall and the Kin cards to get the "tribal payoff.
For Highland Village I don't like that the card tells me it costs $4 but it actually costs $5 because its ability makes it cost more... I think it would be better if Highland Village was just a while in play effect that allowed you topdeck gained Kins.
Banner seems reasonable, if you cut the below the line bit, I don't see what that is adding. The exact numbers might need tweaking but you'd have to play-test for that. If you feel it needs more than just the victory part it could have a reaction that reacts when you gain a Kin or something, not sure it really needs to be more than a simple victory card though.
Gamekeeper looks okay. The Kin reward is a little weird being on a terminal action though, you need a village or a non-action Kin to get any benefit out of it. I'm not excited by the Silver gaining, I don't think it adds much.
I'm not sure about Telltale punishing people for playing Kins, punishing people for playing actions just seems like a generally un-fun thing anyway. Having a free +$1 token on all Kins is just silly... I can't see this whole package not dominating games. Not sure what I'd do to change this one really, my least favourite here by far :(.
Overall I like the idea here, but I think the execution is off. The setup rules modifying cards don't feel like a tribe working together to me and they just mess with the balance of cards. Having multiple Kins in the Kin-gdom will also make it incredibly confusing as to what these card are doing now, with modified costs and on-gain things and on-play things, it's too much.
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I agree with the others that this is a neat idea. I'm questioning whether the new color is warranted, though. Yeah, I know, new colors are always cool, but in general they're reserved for types that behave fundamentally differently from normal Action cards (Durations have to be left out, Night cards can only be played after buy, etc.) An Action-Tribe really behaves no differently from a plain Action. Plus, in IRL games some of the Tribe cards aren't going to have the coloring anyway, which in particular doesn't really make the coloring helpful.
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I'm not sure about Telltale punishing people for playing Kins, punishing people for playing actions just seems like a generally un-fun thing anyway. Having a free +$1 token on all Kins is just silly... I can't see this whole package not dominating games. Not sure what I'd do to change this one really, my least favourite here by far :(.
I don't follow you here. There are two effects, one makes Kins stronger and one makes them weaker. So you have potentially strong cards (Telltale in itself, meaning just the 3 Coins and 2 Cards spread over 2 turns, is also very strong *) that counteract themselves. I think that this provides an interesting tension. Now that lousy Pearl Diver is a Peddler but if you play him while somebody else has Telltale in play you curse yourself.
Most importantly, to my knowledge this kind of interaction has not been seen in Dominion yet.
*- On a technical note, the strength of Telltale helps to bootstrap the entire thing meaning that even if the other 2 Kin cards are weak somebody will most likely go for Telltale. Then somebody else has to go for it to "punish" him for getting away with it without getting cursed and so on.
I'm questioning whether the new color is warranted, though.
It helps to know where you have to look to re-read the global effect.
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I'm not sure about Telltale punishing people for playing Kins, punishing people for playing actions just seems like a generally un-fun thing anyway. Having a free +$1 token on all Kins is just silly... I can't see this whole package not dominating games. Not sure what I'd do to change this one really, my least favourite here by far :(.
I don't follow you here. There are two effects, one makes Kins stronger and one makes them weaker. So you have potentially strong cards (Telltale in itself, meaning just the 3 Coins and 2 Cards spread over 2 turns, is also very strong *) that counteract themselves. I think that this provides an interesting tension. Now that lousy Pearl Diver is a Peddler but if you play him while somebody else has Telltale in play you curse yourself.
Most importantly, to my knowledge this kind of interaction has not been seen in Dominion yet.
*- On a technical note, the strength of Telltale helps to bootstrap the entire thing meaning that even if the other 2 Kin cards are weak somebody will most likely go for Telltale. Then somebody else has to go for it to "punish" him for getting away with it without getting cursed and so on.
Yes, this is what I mean about it being dominating. As the 2 Kins are incredibly likely to be busted given that they have a free +$1 you're forced into going for Telltale to stop your opponent from going mad with the Kins, but then Telltale itself is a Kin so now you're opened up to getting cursed by your opponent's Telltales and it's going to come down to how the shuffles play out as to who gets cursed. Oh and if e.g. the only village ends up being a Kin Telltale might just kill the engine and just end up making the game less fun. It just seems very obnoxious to me, I think there's a good reason why no interaction of this kind has been seen in dominion yet...
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So much feedback, and it's all great! Thank you!
To start with, the colour: Holunder's said my thinking, you want to see clearly what's in the tribe and know what that means. A normal coloured Kin with 2 counters with the word 'kin' on them has you looking for something too often.
I'm pleased the majority of what has been said is that the concept is good but the execution poor. That's exactly what I felt but couldn't be sure without outside perspective. Truth be told the tribe idea didn't spring up like this immediately. It started without the 2 counters on other piles. So each Kin card had some ability to synergise with itself, in case it was the only Kin in a kingdom. Mead Hall, for instance, was:
Action Kin, $2 cost.
You may play an Action Kin from your hand twice; or if you have another Kin in play, any Action.
But I could think of few interesting ideas to fit this format. You could do this Mead Hall, and if it simply named itself for checking if it's in play instead of being a Kin, it could be a fine card. But if there were another Kin, a $2 Throne Room would be volatile. It couldn't be balanced in both cases.
So: since we want the Kin type to have self synergy across different cards, we make it happen by force, and then each Kin card can have more interesting functions. I then went adventurous with ideas, and some of those are on these 5 cards. With the consequences being mentioned by DoomShark and Gazbag. Maybe I was thinking about each card individually too much and failing to appreciate the whole kingdom more, as I should with this mechanic.
You've shown me clearly that not every Kin card should have an 'in games using this' effect, and what they do on play will have an influence on the other Kins that will still produce new play experiences.
So, each individual card:
Mead Hall - yes, 3 cards with trash on play in the kingdom, some of them possibly cantrip, is too much. But I also feel the pairing of (light) Kin trashing and Kin Throne is interesting; the effects self synergise, yet they don't make a strategy by themselves, and that's where the rest of the tribe comes in. The strategy opened up will change each game. So, keep the two parts together and tone down the trashing, and for that I propose to make it on buy rather than on play. Exactly like Plan, but if Plan and Mead Hall appear in the same game they can both be used fine.
Highland Village - with this the top appeared first, and then I thought of the cost increase bit on bottom, and put the two together with the top-deck bit stuck on. The top-decking isn't the main idea; it wants to be a card that helps make a deck of the other Kins. Certainly the bottom effect on this could go. (I thought of it as raising the cost of part of the kingdom could make interesting things happen with Remodels - OK, why not put it on a Remodel then, or any kind of tfb?) The top is probably enough, at $5 cost or maybe $4.
Banner - unanimous agreement to remove the bottom, and with hindsight I agree. The possibility of the other tribe cards giving VP can influence if they're bought, or Banner's viability can be affected by the strength of the tribe in the kingdom. That's all it wants to do.
Gamekeeper - mixed response, though Gazbag's point is fair; this was always variable terminal draw, but with the act of finding a Kin from the discard it may feel nicer if it were nonterminal. I tweaked it from simply "+3 cards, reveal a Kin in hand for +1 card" to make it a fairer fit with the Silver gaining - it's a net draw of only 2 unless you get both Silver and Kins. Embassy is a good point though. It may be too strong a sift.
But, like Highland Village, the two parts were thought separately and stuck together. The Silver gaining looks possibly interesting as it will help some potential tribe cards and hinder others, so could make for a good or bad tribe. But is draw the best top for it?
Telltale - the tension idea Holunder describes is sort of what I had in mind, though Gazbag is probably quite right that both parts are too strong as is. The lure and catch idea seems to have something; if the tribe is a more appealing lure, then the Attack is more viable. It's down to achieving this in a less obnoxious way.
Thanks once again for your time! It's great this idea has landed as well as it has.
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I think Highland Village needs to cost $5, compare to Highway, this is that plus an action but with the drawback of only affecting kins.
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I'm not sure about Telltale punishing people for playing Kins, punishing people for playing actions just seems like a generally un-fun thing anyway. Having a free +$1 token on all Kins is just silly... I can't see this whole package not dominating games. Not sure what I'd do to change this one really, my least favourite here by far :(.
I don't follow you here. There are two effects, one makes Kins stronger and one makes them weaker. So you have potentially strong cards (Telltale in itself, meaning just the 3 Coins and 2 Cards spread over 2 turns, is also very strong *) that counteract themselves. I think that this provides an interesting tension. Now that lousy Pearl Diver is a Peddler but if you play him while somebody else has Telltale in play you curse yourself.
Most importantly, to my knowledge this kind of interaction has not been seen in Dominion yet.
*- On a technical note, the strength of Telltale helps to bootstrap the entire thing meaning that even if the other 2 Kin cards are weak somebody will most likely go for Telltale. Then somebody else has to go for it to "punish" him for getting away with it without getting cursed and so on.
Yes, this is what I mean about it being dominating.
Even with good trashing you can rarely skip junkers anyway so I fail to see why this is a big issue.
I think Highland Village needs to cost $5, compare to Highway, this is that plus an action but with the drawback of only affecting kins.
You are aware that the first Highland Village you buy does cost already $5, right? 6$ would perhaps be Okish for a Highway+Village hybrid but it is too expensive for a Highway that only works on 3 cards. A Highway variant that couldn't be used to green is worth significantly less than Highway.
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I think Highland Village needs to cost $5, compare to Highway, this is that plus an action but with the drawback of only affecting kins.
You are aware that the first Highland Village you buy does cost already $5, right? 6$ would perhaps be Okish for a Highway+Village hybrid but it is too expensive for a Highway that only works on 3 cards. A Highway variant that couldn't be used to green is worth significantly less than Highway.
Sorry, I was responding to OP's response to the feedback on the card and forgot to quote:
Highland Village - with this the top appeared first, and then I thought of the cost increase bit on bottom, and put the two together with the top-deck bit stuck on. The top-decking isn't the main idea; it wants to be a card that helps make a deck of the other Kins. Certainly the bottom effect on this could go. (I thought of it as raising the cost of part of the kingdom could make interesting things happen with Remodels - OK, why not put it on a Remodel then, or any kind of tfb?) The top is probably enough, at $5 cost or maybe $4.
Specifically the last sentence:
The top it probably enouch, at $5 cost or maybe $4
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Playtesting update, OP updated:
Mead Hall - trashing changed from on-play to on-buy. There's much less chance of it being imbalanced like this.
Highland Village - as suggested, removed the bottom and costed it $5. It's still doing plenty like this.
Banner - removed bottom, and halved the VP; now it's comparable to Vineyard, where in exchange for points off likely fewer piles it gets points off itself, and it's a bit easier to gain multiples of.
Gamekeeper - Silver gain limited to $4 cost Kins and over. Some openings were too strong.
Telltale - removed + $1 on Kins, made the Curse gain hit only the first played Kin but it's put onto deck. Hits less often but strongly when it does hit. The tribe is to be its own 'lure'.
And two new ones, each gone through various forms to reach as they are through testing. They may still need work:
Chief - Action Kin, $8 cost.
Choose one: draw until you have 7 cards in hand; or + $4, reveal your hand, and discard the highest costing non-Victory card.
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In games using this, when you gain a second differently named Kin on your turn, you may gain a Chief.
This tries to make a little minigame - if you can get two different members of the tribe to join you, you win the Chief. It's expensive otherwise, but tries to be a worthwhile prize. So in theory this becomes more available when the tribe is good, though sometimes this is just what you need in a game and the tribe is worth getting regardless. Hopefully the top bit is balanced? When you can gain it easily, when gaining or +Buys are available, it gives something still needed but not always reliably.
Reassign - Night Kin, $2+ cost.
Trash another Kin you have in play. If you do, gain a Kin costing up to $6.
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When you buy this, you may overpay for it by $3, to move your Recruit token onto a non-Victory, non-Kin Supply pile costing $1 or more. (Cards from that pile have the Kin type.)
The principle is: you get to swap your Kins around fairly freely, and so have differing upgrade paths. You can make another pile be Kin exclusively to you to give you more flexibility, so you can Recruit a card that's easy to get and upgrade it to something better later, or bring a final power card into the tribe. It's a Night because getting to play the cards you want to change first seems to make it actually relevant. I tried to make it cost $2 so it can be an easy pickup with a spare buy to change later. It seemed to be too good if you could Recruit Coppers to upgrade them, or at least it was too automatic a thing to do and all the fun flexibility of this card was taken away. The Kin you gain caps at $6 because of Chief, and probably King's Court.
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I like the new Mead Hall with the auto-Plan. Seems very strong but if Mead Hall is the only Kin buying them mindlessly in the opening is bad as you are just exchanging one dead card for a card which is so far also dead. So you really gotta time this well and perhaps first buy some Actions before you go for Mead Hall.
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Chief's "highest-costing" is ill-defined; what do I discard if I have a Possession, a Prince and a City Quarter in hand?
I don't know how fun the gaining stuff is. if it is basically never worth it to pay $8 for it (and the effect is rather that of a decent $5), then why make it a supply pile at all?
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Chief's "highest-costing" is ill-defined; what do I discard if I have a Possession, a Prince and a City Quarter in hand?
I don't know how fun the gaining stuff is. if it is basically never worth it to pay $8 for it (and the effect is rather that of a decent $5), then why make it a supply pile at all?
This could be made to discard the most expensive card in Coin. So Debt and Potion cards would actually be better with Chief.
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Also to make Chief a card that you frequently wnat to gain with its kin it would probably be best if it was nonterminal.
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Oh, and another thing I noticed about Reassign. Currently, placing a Kin token makes cards Kins for all players. Is that the intended behaviour? It seems like you'd be giving your opponents something for free. Otherwise, you probably need to clarify that they only have Kin type on your own turns. I'd be mildly worried about a card frequently changing its type over the course of the game, but can think of no example where it would be a big issue, so it might be fine.
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Why make it a supply pile at all?
Peddler is also in the Supply and will never be bought at full price. Like Peddler Chief's high price guarantees that you have to work for the below-the line condition and it enables trash-for-benefit tricks.
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Whilst waiting for Renaissance to know what will happen with Revolution, I turned my attention to these. Updated OP, changes here:
Chief - fair point with cost definition. $4 is a big boost, and a simpler way to ensure balance is to have the player to your left discard one, so that's changed. I considered the idea of making it a non-Supply pile and came up with:
Vice - Action Kin, $2 cost.
+2 Actions
+1 Buy
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In games using this, when you gain a 3rd differently named Kin on your turn, you may gain a Chief from its pile.
It's not set yet because it may not have to be. My overall concern is, though, that Chief is too strong a free giveaway when you can get the other Kins. A weak non-terminal variant could work (though Vice would help with Actions) but as a terminal it's more definitive as a game strategy if the tribe is right.
Reassign now gains a Kin costing up to $4 more than the one trashed, to help enable the copper recruiting and so help cut down its wall of text. It wants to make recruits Kins just for you, thanks for pointing that out faust, so it uses the wording "cards from that pile count as Kin type for you" so it works whilst they're in the Supply.
Telltale is out. It either didn't do anything or it was unpleasant to play. There's a really bitter feeling when you play a Kin knowing you have to get a crow for it. Gazbag's analysis too.
Onto new ones:
Exile - Action Attack Kin, $5 cost.
+ $3
Each other player reveals the top 2 cards of their deck, trashes one that you choose, and gains a card with the same cost as it that you choose.
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In games using this, when scoring, -2VP per differently named Kin you have.
Yes another wall of text, yes another 'in games using this' effect; it works at the end so it shouldn't get too much with the others. The premise is making a bad tribe, and this gets it involved in the game by being a Swindler variant. I'm aware that making a strong card worth negative VP is poor design, but I think it can work on this?
Piper - Action Reaction Kin, $4 cost.
+2 Cards
You may play an Action Kin from your hand.
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Directly after resolving an Action Kin, you may play this from your hand.
It lets you play a chain of Kins. It's been strong in testing, I wouldn't be surprised if it's a $5.
Travelling Merchant - Action Kin, $4 cost.
+1 Card
+1 Action
Reveal your hand. + $2 if there are no Kins.
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You can't buy this if you have 3 or more Coppers in play.
The premise is, use the other Kins or use this. Mid to late game it's fine, but automatic early, so it has a semi Grand Market limiter on it. I'd prefer something like it to making this also cost $5 as buying too many of these is bad.
Poor execution still?
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On the Reassign change - not sure that "counts as Kin cards for you" is clearly defined. Just one example: assume I have Highland Village in play, and play Swindler. Another player trashes a card with my Kin token costing $5. "For me" that is a Kin card and thus would cost $4. But it is not my card. So does the cost reduction apply? And I am sure other problems like this can arise.
Exile - It feels that this is to Swindler what Legionary is to Militia. More economy, and a stronger attack. Makes me think that maybe it wants a similar restriction for the attack, like "you may reveal a Kin from your hand. If you do...". Like it is, it seems oppressively strong, and I don't think the negative VP do a lot to dissuade you from getting it.
Piper - like a mix of Cultist and Avanto. I think it definitely needs to cost $5, even without the text below the line. And the below-the-line line text is a bit strange in execution since I can use both the below-the-line and the on-play effects to play Piper-Piper. Not sure if it makes any actual difference, but it's kinda weird.
Travelling Merchant - if you don't want the other Kins, this is very automatic. And if other Kins are nonterminal, you're always going to activate one of these. It's kind of like a less interesting Conspirator. The buy restriction is kind of random and artificial and you can still easily gain this with Alms or most gainers. Would be slightly more interesting of the restriction was to have a Kin in play, but of course that gives a small chance that the card will be impossible to buy.
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Another update with fresh perspective. OP updated, changes here in alphabetical order:
Exile makes each Kin worth -1VP, not sure why it was how it was before when this is simpler. I haven't yet looked at attack strength but yes, it could either look just at the top card of opposing decks or give $2.
Piper is up to $5. It can almost be a Lab that's played after a terminal Action, of course it's a $5...
Reassign - Night Kin, $2+ cost.
Trash a Kin you have in play. Gain a Kin costing up to $4 more than it.
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When you buy this, you may overpay for it by $3, to move your Recruit token onto a non-Victory, non-Kin Supply pile. (Your cards from that pile get the Kin type, and cards still in the pile get the Kin type on your turns.)
Another go at wording Reassign. If it's going to be wordy, it might as well be really wordy. Moving the Recruit token rules to only be in the hypothetical rulebook isn't conventional but that would be nice.
Travelling Merchant is now at the bottom of a split pile to get over the opening issue. The top, Pearl, is a Gold +Buy that trashes a Kin in play, most likely itself but there's room for edge cases. Does it need its +Buy?
I made the changes to Chief I said I would, making it a non-Supply pile with Vice in the Supply. Now Chief is a bit harder to get yet is always possible with Vice's +Buy. He doesn't need to be a Kin, but he is for flavour.
Two new ideas:
Pillar - Action Kin, $4 cost.
Trash a card from your hand. +1VP for one type it has, and +2VP for the extra types.
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In games using this, one empty Kin pile does not count toward the 3 for game end.
Trash the right targets to get the most points from this. Kin counts as a type, so will give more points. To prolong the game a bit and make this more viable, you can safely empty one Kin pile; this can also have its own effects on the game. Possibly the VP gain is too much and should just be 1VP per type. Why is Bishop so strong so that it needs its other-players-can-trash bit?
And yes it's another 'in games using this' effect. In exchange, Gamekeeper is an outtake, it wasn't that fun.
Runner - Action Kin, $3 cost.
+1 Action
Reveal cards from the top of your deck until you reveal a Kin. You may put one of the revealed cards back on top. Put the Kin back on top and discard the rest.
Make the next card in your deck a Kin, and you can put another card you reveal just under it if there's a good combo there or you're running to other Runners. But there's a lot of card revealing, lots of time. A Scavenger variant would be quicker but play a little differently.
One thing bothering me is the number of (pseudo) Villages in this set already. Highland Village, Mead Hall, Piper and Vice. I might change the top of Highland Village, unless you think of better ideas.
And should I enforce a rule of maximum 2 Kins in a game?
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And should I enforce a rule of maximum 2 Kins in a game?
Without reading over many of the other changes you have made since I last looked at this thread, I would do it similarly to how Donald handled events/landmarks/projects: suggested cap of 2, but not enforced.
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It's probably too late to say, but I feel that it might be interesting if being a Kin increased the cost of a card that it affected; meaning, with sort of the older model, if you were giving trashing to a Shanty Town, it would also cost +$1.
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It's probably too late to say, but I feel that it might be interesting if being a Kin increased the cost of a card that it affected; meaning, with sort of the older model, if you were giving trashing to a Shanty Town, it would also cost +$1.
I've learned that the less a Kin does to change a card the better, so analysis paralysis is lessened. Mead Hall might be a bad design anyway.
But for now, a few ideas to start this off as a full expansion:
Armoursmith - Action, $4 cost.
+4 Cards
If your deck and discard pile empty while this is in play, trash this.
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When you gain this, each other player looks at the top 2 cards of their deck, discards any number, and puts the rest back in any order.
Simple draw that can't be put in a full deck-draw engine so easily. Simplicity is the key here to make analysing how Kins affect this easier. As much as I'd love to not have the bottom bit, it feels like a $4.5 cost card so the gift to other players knocks this down to $4 whilst softens the early deck cycling advantage this gives.
Potter - Action, $4 cost.
Gain a card costing up to $4. You may reveal an Action from your hand with the same cost as it, for +2VP.
More VP tokens to accompany Pillar. A Workshop that can get you ahead on points if you play things right.
Farrier - Action, $3 cost.
+2 Cards
+1 Action
Discard a Copper (or reveal you can't.)
Rider - Action, $5 cost.
+1 Buy
+1 Card per Farrier you have in play. Discard any number of cards. + $1 per card discarded per Rider you have in play.
Split pile to go with Travelling Merchant, and split piles fit well in the set anyway. Farrier is drawing cards for you somehow, either as a late Lab or as fuel for Rider's draw, and the Rider himself Vaults the draw away for payload. Besides other things.
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These are all very interesting cards. I have a hard time judging Armoursmith and Rider but on the first glance they look sound.
Farrier could be too good for $3 if there is a run on the pile in many games so it might have to cost $4. But on the other hand opening double Farrier isn't that brilliant: some cycling, no boost to the economy and you could end up in a similar situation as somebody who mindlessly buys Saunas in the opening.
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Announcing an OP update to the Kins.
(https://i.imgur.com/AEC75cs.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/AEC75cs.jpg)
It made more practical sense to have the 2 counters that show other piles are Kins instead be sideways cards that go under the pile, like the bane marker.
Just a theme change for Vice, if everyone attends the tribal festival the Chief is in a jolly mood so he's happy to join you.
Mead Hall is rather different now, the trashing has gone and it plays other Kins in a more exciting way. It effectively becomes two Kins put together, or one doubled up, which can include Treasure and Night Kins for maximum usability. Most of the time this is powerful, so it's a one-shot. It's more unique, there's better interactivity and it will sometimes be bad.
A simplified Reassign. If it can get away without being a Night, that'll be better for the set I think, though the top could be too strong like this. And something that Capitalism helped with, wording the Recruit token instructions simply.
Pearl has no Buy on it now, unnecessary. Am I missing a trick with not having it be gained to the bottom of the deck?
Exile is out for being too oppressive, but look at the new ideas and you'll see what came of it.
Highland Village was similar to the former Mead Hall, not exactly bad but it could be more interactive. There's already Festival Grounds, so it's out.
Runner as it is doesn't really work as I'd like, but there's definitely a pure Kin support card to be made somehow.
New ideas:
Rivals - Action Attack Duration Kin, $4 cost.
Until your next turn, if another player starts Clean-up without having played a Kin other than Rivals on their turn, they draw 3 cards for their next hand instead of 5.
At the start of your next turn, +2 Cards.
Trying to retain the 'this likes bad Kins' interaction from Exile. Making them block an Attack seems the best way to encourage getting them whilst being fun to play with. Having them reveal it from hand like Moat can sometimes fail despite great effort. So I went with making them play it, which can help make things a bit nastier in the best/worst cases. And it turns out rather like a reversed Telltale.
Secret Keeper - Action Kin, $5 cost.
+1 Action
If you have 1 or more Kins in play, +2 Cards. If 2 or more, + $2.
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In games using this, when you gain a Kin, each other player gets +1VP.
And here's the negative VP Kins bit from Exile; conveniently VP tokens will be a feature of the set so I can better implement negative VP by permanent +VP to other players. No sneakily trashing them at the end. From there it made sense to have a top that gave very convincing reasons to invest in the Tribe anyway. This might not be enough even like this.
I feel this is now a set of convincing and diverse Kin cards. But I also see there are many designs possible. Possibly I've missed something good.
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[...]
(https://i.imgur.com/4i2584Q.jpg)
Farrier - Action, $3 cost.
+2 Cards
+1 Action
Discard a Copper (or reveal you can't.)
I don't understand: a farrior is a laboratory but with cost of $3 instead of $5?
So i would buy two Farriors at the start and will win with Big Money?
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I don't understand: a farrior is a laboratory but with cost of $3 instead of $5?
So i would buy two Farriors at the start and will win with Big Money?
After the laboratory bit, you're forced to discard a Copper from your hand. So to start with it helps neither hand size nor money, only cycling. If you get to trash your Coppers, then it can become a lab. The only reason I can think of to start with 2 Farriers is if you really, really want to boost the Riders you buy later and make sure your opponents don't stop you.
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A few more non-Kin cards, on OP already:
Mail Coach moves over from Revolution, as a Bridleway.
Engraver, a cantrip Treasure trasher with a Buy that gets VP for trashed Treasures in the manner of Priest.
Goose; a Peddler and a Fugitive, each $4.5 effects, put together as a choice with a slow self-gain effect for a $5 card. Not great for its cost until you can accumulate several copies.
A set of simple cards needs a simple Village. How do you make one of those interesting? This one shuffles the discard into deck just before your first gain of the turn. Good for greens, bad for early building. So because it's sometimes better sometimes worse than base set Village this costs $3, the 'interest' I was trying for.
I said I liked Throne from discard when I changed Taskmaster from Revolution. It's here now, simply discarding a card first with it.
(Ambush)
And the crazy one last. Completely block cards from entering anyone's deck, and from going back to the pile, by putting a State on the pile. Should I let it block Provinces...?
More details on the OP. From these cards, there emerges a discard pile theme and a Buy phase theme.
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Engraver looks broken as it enables infinite loops (buy Copper, trash Copper for VPs). Doesn't seem to difficult to pull off something like playing 5 Engravers, trashing 5 Coppers, getting 15VPs and then buyign 5 Coppers to do the whole thing again next turn.
I like Ambush, it is a cool State idea.
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Goose: I like this one. A cool Rats variant.
Thane: Throne Rooms are engine cards, so I don't think being able to look in your discard pile will end up being very useful. This idea doesn't really excite me overall; I feel that Ghost is a better implementation of this idea.
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Commodore, I'm of an entirely different opinion.
I've been a lurker on this forum for years, and I finally created an account just so I could praise how brilliant Thane is. It's amazing in its simplicity and subtle complexity. Sure, it's a weaker 5, but not all 5s get to be Wharf.
It's weak in the sense that throne rooms are best in big engines, and in big engines, you tend to not often have cards in your discard pile. So its strength comes out in slogs or decks where you don't draw your deck, in which case your throne-room'd card might not make that big of a difference. But the best designed-cards doesn't mean the most-powerful cards. There's many situations where you'd pay 5 for a throne room anyway, and well, here is your thane. Honestly this is all very interesting to me, and I think it's a great card!
Thane also lets you play mid-turn gains without drawing your whole deck or putting it on top of your deck, which is a way cool. Iron-working a non terminal action, and then than'ing that action back to get a village could be handy. Plus, thane combos with hermit. It allows you discard cards that you want hermit to trash! And Hermit gives you mid turn gains you could play with thane! If only you had a village -- oh yes, madman helps there (of course if that's the only village, these kind of tricks may not be worth it).
Minion away a good non terminal because there was only one minion in hand in a minion deck? No worries, you can thane it back! Why not discard a tunnel or loyal hound on your turn? Play important actions your opponent rabbled or scrying-pool'd away for you? Yes. This card is great. One of my favorite fan cards I've seen.
Thane is a great card in that it leads to more interesting and fun games. Part of me used to wish chapel never existed so we would have to have more interesting non-vanilla trashing cards to take its place (like what happened with Poacher before it existed). Thane makes me wish throne room wasn't around so we'd have more cool cards like this. Excellent work.
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This is a long overdue 'thank you, glad you like it, welcome to the forums!' Quite a touching first post, and I'm pleased someone likes Thane as much as I do. Hope you're enjoying the weekly contest!
Now to the other main feature I plan for this set:
Tasks
In the weekly contest, I made these be a basic Supply pile. They all cost $2 and no buy, and you'd choose one from the deck you could fulfill, and you were only allowed one Task at once. This deck was a random draft of 5 Tasks each game, 2 copies of each.
It wasn't quite right - they could become a way to just convert $2 into a different resource in an engine when fulfilled every turn. And with the possibility of instant fulfill on some Tasks, there wasn't anything to work towards - you'd just take these when convenient; so the design space for good ones was small.
So with changes, they've turned out similar to Asper's Feats and even more like Udzu's Adventures. You have my word there was no inspiration drawn from either of these. Still, this might prove boring reading.
The new Tasks, quests at the start of the game you analyse how you can complete
They're landscape cards that you keep in a deck by themselves, shuffle, then draw 3 out (seems a sensible number to comprehend) at random for the game. This group will count as 1 of the 2 landscapes recommended for games. Each player also gets 3 tokens of some kind (let's call them Accomplish tokens) in their colour. Each Task has an Objective and a Reward. During the game, in a similar manner to using a Reaction effect, a player may interrupt game flow and declare they have completed the Objective on one of the Tasks, prove it to the other players if necessary, then put one of their Accomplish tokens on the Task card and get the Reward straight away. A Task can only be accomplished once. A player does not have to immediately declare a Task is accomplished the first time they can do so; there are cases for waiting until a later time, and accountability issues are avoided.
So, how these affect the game: whilst the Kin cards call for analysis at the start to determine the best combos, the Tasks can have a bearing on the route players take their decks through during the game, to have them think ahead.
Like a quest board you might find in an RPG. I would absolutely call them Quests if not for the Event.
The first drafts I have so far:
Appease - Task
Objective: have 2 Duchies in your hand, revealed.
Reward: +4VP
Bring 2 Duchies together in peace. This may affect when you would normally get Duchies, as effectively bringing them up to 5VP each can be worth it. This one appears to be sound; you can always do it, and it makes Duchies more relevant.
Build - Task
Objective: gain 3 cards on your turn.
Reward: +4VP
This one isn't always doable, and that might be something to rectify. Either that or 3 Tasks become 2, or you replace it, or you don't actually do full random games with these. Trouble is the design space is narrow if every Task needs to always be doable, and this one can be done in many different ways so is very replayable.
Demolish - Task
Objective: trash 3 cards on your turn.
Reward: +3VP
Exactly the same story as Build.
Explore - Task
Objective: have 8 differently named cards in play.
Reward: +5VP
The Horn of Plenty experience. This needs more work to do anything, though, which may not be doable. Investigate, at the bottom, might be enough on the variety theme.
Gather - Task
Objective: produce $15 or more.
Reward: +1 Buy, +3VP
It's always possible, quite fun to achieve, but if double Province is possible it's probably best to go down that route anyway.
Impress - Task
Objective: complete 2 other Tasks on the same turn.
Reward: +4VP
Extra points if you can complete the 2 other Tasks together. A simple extra twist that's welcome...if it's actually doable.
Investigate - Task
Objective: have a hand of 5 or more cards with no copies in it, revealed.
Reward: +3VP
Get a big enough hand of all different cards. Always possible, and it seems better than Explore in every way.
I fully expect the Rewards to be imbalanced, and overall for this to currently be another case of poor execution. Some possible adjustments I thought of was to attach the sometimes doable ones to relevant cards like with Heirlooms, to make them doable; but then that makes them a bit less replayable. Possibly I could make a Task that needs a specific kingdom pile, and that Task be shuffled in or added to the draft of 3 when that pile is selected.
The OP has been updated with them. Other changes have sneaked in as well:
Engraver has had its buy taken off, just as segura said.
Rider just gets $1 per card discarded, not per Rider in play as well. It could get crazy money if the pile wasn't contested, too much pressure.
Rivals is rather different:
Rivals - Action Attack Kin, $3* cost.
+2 Cards
Each other player may reveal a Kin other than Rivals from their hand. Those who don't trash the top card of their deck and gain a card with the same cost as it that you choose.
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In games using this, Kins cost $1 more.
The former version could hit despite the best attempts by the opponents. This Attack is a bit less wild and helps assure you get them to have bad Kins. The price increase adds to this as well as boost tfb tricks (this costs $4); but how easy is it to keep remembering it?
If this is sound, I can try to make this set free from Durations.
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I think the concept of the tasks is a good idea, but all of them aside from Gather just give VP as the reward which makes them feel very similar to Landmarks.
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Here's a fairly big update.
Secret Keeper is out. Its strategy was a bit too similar to Piper's and the bottom part felt like a clash rather than a compliment. Pearl could take it better, as then Kins could be an occasional good purchase rather than 'need lots or none at all'. With a bit of tweaking, I got to...
Legend - Treasure Kin, $4 cost.
+1 Buy
When you play this, choose one: gain a Kin; or trash a Kin you have in hand or in play, for + $1 per $1 it costs.
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In games using this, when you gain a Kin, each other player gets +1VP.
I twigged Pearl could be Salvager for Kins, and a Kin trash-for-benefit caring about cost unlike Pillar felt good; it likes expensive Kins, Festival Grounds likes them cheap. I also had 'gain a Kin' hovering as an idea and thought it could be balanced with the bottom line part so stuck it on.
Reassign - Night Kin, $4 cost.
You may trash a Kin you have in play, to gain a Kin costing up to $3 more than it.
You may trash this, to move your Ally token onto a non-Victory, non-Kin Supply pile of your choice. (During your turns, cards from that pile are also Kins.)
Reassign is back to a clean Night variant, because I've thought of some possible accompanying Nights for the set. It looks pretty horrible in a game with Legend... There is one possible trick that saves the combo from being awful, at least.
This, in turn, may be showing that Kins worth -1VP is a bad design that shouldn't be done.
Rivals - Action Attack Kin, $3* cost.
+2 Cards
Each other player may reveal a Kin other than Rivals from their hand. Those who don't take Taunted, or if they already have it turn it over to Twice Taunted.
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In games using this, Kins cost $1 more.
Another change to Rivals. Really, who likes Swindler? How much less you'll like it when you can change their card for a weaker Kin card. So what could that attack be? Not a junking one, as that reduces the chance of having Kins in hand. A handsize Attack could work but what would be most balanced? Militia looked a little weak and Legionary a bit strong. So I did something new, using a State since I already have Targeted. Reduce a vanilla number in their next Action's instructions by one that they choose, that stacks up to two times because States can be two-sided and so you can use more than 1 Rivals.
There's more vanilla adjustment later.
Travelling Merchant - Action Kin, $4 cost.
+1 Card
+1 Action
+ $1
This turn, cards cost $1 more if you have a Kin other than Travelling Merchant in play.
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When you gain this, if you have any Kins in play, trash it.
Travelling Merchant returns to being a pile all by itself, making the choice between using it or other Kins more definite. It's a $4 Peddler that almost becomes plain cantrip if ever you play a different Kin down, that you can't gain at all if you have any Kins down. I thought a peddler that prevented gaining copies of itself while in play quite cool, but maybe it weakens this too far. Travelling Merchant is a long name to write twice on the card...
Ambush got the non-Victory only nerf so no blocking provinces. There are kinder, more polite ways to discourage ending the game.
I'm going daring and taking the bottom part of Armoursmith off whilst keeping it at $4. There are disadvantages to big draw early on, like greater likelihood of terminal collision meaning earlier need for Villages, but am I clutching at straws? Is it a big money monster?
Highland Village - Action, $4 cost.
+1 Card
+2 Actions
Look through your remaining deck. Discard a card from it, then shuffle it.
Highland Village is a bit more comprehensible for engines now. It can remove junk from the deck or put a key card in the discard pile. But of course, shuffle deck on a cantrip means lengthy waiting - I'm counting on the decision of the card to discard being quick and easy to make.
3 more new cards:
Neighbouring Village - Action, $3 cost.
+2 Actions
When you next play an Action from your hand this turn, add 1 more to each +Card, +Buy, +$ and +VP amount it gives you as you resolve it.
This contest winner was designed to go here. A Village that likes careful thought as to play order, boosting the next Action you play from hand. Vault would be +3 Cards, discard any number of cards for +$1 each, then +$1 if you discarded any; you got a +$ amount then added 1 on to it, you did not add 1 to the instructions. 'Resolving' means the same as on Royal Carriage; Hireling doesn't give you anything as you resolve it so no bonus given, similarly to the VP from Goons and Groundskeeper.
Scrounger - Night Attack, $5 cost.
Each player (including you) shuffles their discard pile into their deck. Gain a Gold.
Non-terminal Gold gainer, but those Golds will come slowly as they and this miss shuffles. You can use this shuffle quite strategically in this set. Everyone's shuffling their discard pile in, mainly because it's a new Attack that fits neatly. 'Attack', I say; how often is it helpful? Should it be there?
Tinker - Night, $5 cost.
Look through your discard pile. Trash a card from it. If you did, trash a card from your hand and gain a card costing exactly the total cost of the trashed cards.
Another contest entry I designed to go here. Find a card in the discard, maybe something you just bought, and Forge it with one card from your hand. That it can thin and build non-terminally makes it potent, yet mundane Province milling whilst trashing Coppers can be too automatic at times. Perhaps there's an elegant fix to this.
And that's the lot.
I think the concept of the tasks is a good idea, but all of them aside from Gather just give VP as the reward which makes them feel very similar to Landmarks.
Yes, the flexibility is there to add different rewards and should probably be used. Gain a Gold is thematic, as could gaining a Chief be for Impress.
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I think that the new Armoursmith is too strong in general. Its drawback isn't nearly severe enough to justify a (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/6/6f/Coin6.png/16px-Coin6.png) effect costing just (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/7/7d/Coin5.png/16px-Coin5.png); by the time you're drawing your entire deck, you've gotten far more out of Armoursmith than can be justified for a mere (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/2/2a/Coin4.png/16px-Coin4.png).
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Another update, with several new cards and changes to fit Donald's new errata. The OP hasn't been updated yet - edit: it has now.
Festival Grounds no longer has to gain a Chief 'from its pile'.
Chief himself is rather different. The way he got money before, opponent chooses a card for you to discard, is uninteresting at times, and also likes a smaller hand together with draw to X. He's supposed to be strong payload that behaves a little differently in different decks, so with Festival Grounds what the other Kins are can affect him too. Now he makes money by directly liking a big hand, and there's a VP bit added on too as that makes thematic sense. Overall, you will at least get some possible draw, 2/3 VP and +$2. Lots, perhaps too much.
And he's no longer a Kin; see further down, he could now exist in games with no Kins in.
Mead Hall can take on the Command type to be cleaner and safer against further expansions, but because it leaves play straight away it can't really do the conventional 'leave them there' can it? Nothing's there tracking the played cards. Ah, just as I write this I realise I need to set each played card aside a la Encampment to prevent Scheme stuff - edit: done, in OP.
Ambush and Targeted get changes to fit the weekly contest feedback. Ambush costs $3 and is terminal so it hurts a bit more to have to gain to move Targeted, letting aggressive play be more possible. It also no longer moves Targeted on trash, but you can choose to trash it on play now, letting you remove a weak card from your deck if you don't need so much Targeted control. Targeted now just works on gains, it's simpler, safer and cleaner.
My idea for a fix to Armoursmith is to prevent it coming in early by it needing a $5+ in play. Extra powerful with gainers like this, but it was anyway with their deck thickening.
Bridleway no longer has to say '(but not less than $0)'.
Engraver has a nerf to its VP gain, it felt too much together with the early game function as well.
Scrounger's attack was unreliable and I suppose a bit swingy. That's now gone, you get the Gold before the discard pile disappears into your deck and you get more control over how it does so, choose up to 3 on top and put the rest on bottom. You can be clever with it.
Thane doesn't have to say you look through your discard pile anymore.
Likewise Tinker, which now also limits the cost of the discard trash to $6 or less to stop Province Copper grinds, and lets you combine it with a card in play to be more reliable.
Tasks get fancier rewards to make them even more persuading:
You could put Project effects on them, the Accomplish token doing the same job as the Project cube. Build is going to thicken the deck, so drawing more of it makes sense.
Once you trash down, you often need to build up again. Demolish helps there.
Impress should be hard to do most of the time, respectable enough to win the allegiance of the top man himself and a bump up to 5VP.
And the new ones. Again, I keep quiet about their synergies within the set so you can have the fun of spotting them:
Brute, an Attack that discards a pair of cards from opponents' hands. Not new, I've seen it around this forum, but I believe the idea for balancing it is? It must be the first Attack a player gets hit by between turns for it to do anything. With the self bonus as terminal +$, it'll be hard for one player to launch a follow-up Attack.
Caver, cheap draw that can sometimes bring a powerful +2 Cards + $2 if you time its play right. Or it simply changes its function once you've drawn your deck.
Cooper, like a non-terminal Beggar-for-2-Coppers then Cellar. Powerful, quite diverse, but junks your deck. It has a few similarities to Goose, but it should be different enough; this is strong early.
Forester, woodcutter that can put one Treasure you gain during the turn straight into play. You can use the extra buy to easily inject money into the deck. (Yes it appears to fit into Revolution better with its Treasures theme, but the tendency to casually buy a Silver that effectively costs $1 or a Gold for $3 would suit this set more. It's hard to call where it should go.)
Instruct, a fancy remodel. You can remodel for something costing $1 more straight back to hand, but with a Silver bloating your deck each time. Or that Silver could be turned into a $4 for a simple workshop, or you get a Silver and something else decent. Flexible, but perhaps niche overall.
Weaponsmith, a cursing attack that launches with discarding 2 cards costing total $5 or more. It adds incentive to move good things to the discard pile, or generally it has the neat feature of being a later game curser.
I have other ideas but this is enough for now.