Dominion Strategy Forum

Dominion => Variants and Fan Cards => Topic started by: Neirai the Forgiven on May 10, 2018, 09:27:08 am

Title: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
Post by: Neirai the Forgiven on May 10, 2018, 09:27:08 am
Officially announced on reddit, here's essentially a crosspost:

You feel like you’ve really got the hang of this Emperor thing. Your holdings reach out in all directions and cover the whole world. That’s the problem, really. You are running out of directions to conquest; north, west, south, east, and florst, you rule them all. You’ve tried conquering in other directions, too: widdershins, reverse widdershins -- but eventually you realize you’re just trying to conquer from yourself. You can’t really go up, either, but you’ve got top men working on that. So you’ve settled with going down. As soon as you started going down, you found riches, but you also found old things, things from a time before when someone else was also going down, apparently. But unlike whoever this was, you are still alive and that makes all the difference.

Antiquities is a 27-pile (plus a promo) fanspansion built and tested by me, with a ton of helpful feedback from this community. My gratitude for the feedback is immense. This would have not been worth landing without it, it was lame at the start.

You've all seen the WIP thread, so I'll skip to the fun part, card art reveals. This was done using Violet's card renderer, with art from Jan Boruta (https://janboruta.deviantart.com).

(https://i.imgur.com/53s55tOl.png)  (https://i.imgur.com/KMkux7xl.png)  (https://i.imgur.com/egE0CGKl.png)

I will be posting followups with more art each week, followed by a rulebook reveal!
Title: Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
Post by: Gazbag on May 10, 2018, 10:10:35 am
Sweet art! Will the rulebook have boxart on the front too?

I don't like the "it" wording on Stronghold though, I think it should follow Hermit's wording rather than Harbinger's.
Title: Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
Post by: Neirai the Forgiven on May 10, 2018, 02:07:42 pm
Yes! Although I don't have that art yet.

Also, seriously check Jan's art out. You can see a sample on his deviantart site, but also by looking at any of JFD's Civilization VI and V mods. The dude needs more views.
Title: Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
Post by: GendoIkari on May 10, 2018, 03:46:02 pm
Shipwreck might have accountability issues. If the finding of a treasure isn't optional, then the person would have to reveal their entire discard to prove there's no treasure in it. And if they do find a card, they should reveal it before putting it on the bottom of the draw pile.

Magic deals with similar things; if a card lets you search your library for any card and put it in your hand, then generally you don't have to reveal that card, and it's normally not optional. But if a card lets you search for something specific, like a land, then it always has you reveal the card you found, and finding it is always optional.

Same with Moundbuilder Village... it doesn't have accountability for finding the highest-cost card.
Title: Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
Post by: Neirai the Forgiven on May 10, 2018, 04:06:52 pm
Shipwreck might have accountability issues. If the finding of a treasure isn't optional, then the person would have to reveal their entire discard to prove there's no treasure in it. And if they do find a card, they should reveal it before putting it on the bottom of the draw pile
...
Same with Moundbuilder Village... it doesn't have accountability for finding the highest-cost card.

Gah, late-game issues!
Good catches, though. Shipwreck should be optional, and Moundbuilder Village could probably be changed to say "reveal your discard pile" since you'll have to show everyone all the card costs.
Title: Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
Post by: Neirai the Forgiven on May 10, 2018, 11:10:15 pm
I should also mention I'm revealing a card every Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, and Friday on my twitter (https://twitter.com/Neiraiforgiven).

(It might be helpful if you take a look at them since apparently I still have some typos and rule misses!)
Title: Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
Post by: ClouduHieh on May 12, 2018, 05:20:08 am
Mound builder village is interesting, however once you start buying provinces it starts to become almost useless. And I think stronghold has to much text on the card, the action is kinda wonky. However i really love the reaction. It could be very useful against attacks like swindler, bandit, noble brigand, and giant. Ect. Also I have to say shipwreck is definitely my favorite of the 3. The fact that eventually a good card will end up in your hand is okay. And if you play it when you have a few cards in your deck at the time. You could have it in your hand or on that turn depending on what actions you have to work with. So it may be a weaker harbinger but the fact that it only costs 2 anyway might be worth buying. After all thereís other cards that give you the same benefit but different effects. Like peasant and herbalist. I think itís better than herbalist. So you may just want to tweak the cost and action effect of stronghold. But you donít have to itís a pretty cool idea after you get past the wonky ness. Maybe just tweak the wording if you can.
Title: Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
Post by: ClouduHieh on May 12, 2018, 05:31:41 am
When I said card I meant treasure however why donít you just make it any card. Like harbinger.
I mean if you look thru a shipwreck looking for treasure you might find an octopus instead. I donít know about you but an octopus 🐙 just screams action. But just an idea. Either way itís still pretty cool. And if itís just treasure then it really is like an herbalist cause your usually aware of what treasures lurk in your discard pile. Sorry I couldnít help it.
Title: Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
Post by: LibraryAdventurer on May 12, 2018, 08:00:24 pm
set needs an octopus card.
Title: Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
Post by: McGarnacle on May 12, 2018, 10:16:41 pm
This looks amazing! Nice to see a completed fan expansion.
Title: Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
Post by: Neirai the Forgiven on May 14, 2018, 12:35:07 pm
set needs an octopus card.

Mistakes were made.
Title: Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
Post by: ClouduHieh on May 15, 2018, 07:40:20 pm
Tomb raider is interesting. An attack card that removes attack cards from other hands. Someone who hates attack cards and never buys them themselves will buy as many of these as they can if thereís at least one other attack card pile. Also if the player doesnít have an attack card. You can get a copy of a treasure in thier hand. Which would be more useful towards the middle to the end for a gold or other good treasure cards. And if the attack doesnít work or you canít copy a treasure worth coping at least you always have another action. And if you had 2 tomb raiders in your hand. You being player 1. Player 2 and 3 both the first time had to discard an attack. And player 4 didnít so you got to gain a copy of his gold. Then the second time you played it player 2 had to discard another attack. Player 3 didnít so you gained a copy of his harem. And another gold from player 4. In that way this could be too powerful for a card costing 3. 5 might be better all around so that it keeps you from getting too many of them. And by the time you have a couple of them. It will be more useful to you anyway. And if tomb raider is the only attack card in the game you could get 3 silvers or 3 golds each time you played it. So itís already stronger than bandit. And bandit costs 5. So it costing 5 or 6 would be better. And the only way to weaken this card is to put bandit fort the landmark in the game. However if you want to keep it at 3. Why donít you tweak it a little bit. Like for instance if someone canít discard an attack cause they donít have one, why donít you gain a silver or +1💵treasure for each who canít. This way you donít end up depleting the gold pile before every other pile. Like I said just tweak a little and it would be perfect card. And if you donít it wonít hurt my feelings. I would love to gain a few golds and discard other players attack cards in a singe turn, With still a lot more benefits in my turn.
Title: Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
Post by: ClouduHieh on May 15, 2018, 08:03:29 pm
Riches is wonky. Yeah you could use it to get rid of all your coppers but then you would never buy silver or gold or any other treasure unless you didnít play it when riches was being played. Like harem maybe. But everyone would buying riches. There wouldnít be enough to go around for a for a 4 player game especially cause it would be worth buying other strong treasures like gold or platinum. In a two player game. All the provinces would be bought easily. Each 2 player game would only take like ten minutes and the game would be over. Especially if you have a lot of actions that give you extra treasure. The only way I could see it working. Is if you made it cost 7 instead and then made the trashing optional. Or must trash one other treasure per riches so that way damage to your deck can minimized. Because if you keep it the way it the way it is your only hurting yourself by buying it. So basically itís a deadly version of rats. At least with rats you usually have other cards that can trash rats and sometimes fortress to keep rats in check. And in a 3 or 4 player game you would have to limit what other cards you buy to the the actions that give treasure. And assuming you are able to keep all your coppers. Having a few storytellers and a couple of riches and another card that you gives you a + 1 buy, you could buy multiple provinces in a singe turn almost every turn.
Title: Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
Post by: ClouduHieh on May 15, 2018, 08:11:39 pm
Sarcophagus is definitely my favorite of the next 3 cards. Itís a procession and Iíll gotten gains variant. A little stronger but better. I donít think it needs tweaking at all. Iíll gotten gains costed 5 but your benefit is a lot better. And just like Iíll gotten gains itís got the same theme.
Title: Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
Post by: Gazbag on May 16, 2018, 05:16:12 am
Riches is wonky. Yeah you could use it to get rid of all your coppers but then you would never buy silver or gold or any other treasure unless you didnít play it when riches was being played. Like harem maybe. But everyone would buying riches. There wouldnít be enough to go around for a for a 4 player game especially cause it would be worth buying other strong treasures like gold or platinum. In a two player game. All the provinces would be bought easily. Each 2 player game would only take like ten minutes and the game would be over. Especially if you have a lot of actions that give you extra treasure. The only way I could see it working. Is if you made it cost 7 instead and then made the trashing optional. Or must trash one other treasure per riches so that way damage to your deck can minimized. Because if you keep it the way it the way it is your only hurting yourself by buying it. So basically itís a deadly version of rats. At least with rats you usually have other cards that can trash rats and sometimes fortress to keep rats in check. And in a 3 or 4 player game you would have to limit what other cards you buy to the the actions that give treasure. And assuming you are able to keep all your coppers. Having a few storytellers and a couple of riches and another card that you gives you a + 1 buy, you could buy multiple provinces in a singe turn almost every turn.

Riches actually looks broken to me, it would still be a strong Copper trasher if it only gave +$1, but trashing ~2 Coppers at the same time as giving +$4 and letting you play the Coppers for money that turn too? Yeah that's clearly too much. And this can continue to be used as a +$4 treasure even after your Coppers are trashed if you refrain from picking up other treasures, most trashers just become useless cards once you're done trashing with them.
Title: Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
Post by: ClouduHieh on May 16, 2018, 06:19:10 am
Grave watcher where do I start? First of all itís not much of an attack. Even tomb raider is more of an attack than this one. The problem is your not going to get to use it as an attack very often. Unless you gain most the curses and most of the grave watchers. And if thatís all the cards you had in your deck you might win. I sopose if you put this with riches you would have some strong turns. Thatís only if there in the same game. And you would have to keep yourself limited to buying just grave watcher, riches, victories, and maybe an action with a +1 buy. But the problem is an action usually needs to be self sufficient. Grave watcher really isnít. There would probably still need to be an attack card that gives out curses. So you can maybe have one when you first play this. Otherwise itís the throne room dilemma all over again as an example. Now I do like the attack effect itís pretty cool. But gaining curses is the wrong way to do it. You would be better off just making the attack work every time and giving grave watcher a -1 Victory as in making it a new type of curse.If you get past the occasional attack part. Gaining curses just so you make +3 treasure and +1 action. Is crazy. You might do it once or twice. And it will probably help with your buy. But it would be crazy to do any more than that. And you wouldnít even think about doing it if there was no way to trash em. And of course itís useless if all curses are depleted. So it comes down to a one time use with sarcophagus. And only if sarcophagus and a curse are already in your hand. Even saboteur would be better and it doesnít have even have a gain. So grave watcher might need to be tweaked. Otherwise itís almost always going to be one of those cards no one buys during the game. I think this is worse than riches. Cause your lowering your score for just 3 extra treasure. And maybe a cool attack later in the game. And 4 treasure (riches) is better than 3.
Title: Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
Post by: ClouduHieh on May 16, 2018, 06:23:31 am
Aquifer is okay. You might want to tweak it just a little bit. First of all make it a little bit more like tunnel. So that way margrave letís gain another one as as oasis ect. Then make it cost like 3 or 4.
Like I said itís so so. If you want to make it better than average, thatís a suggestion.
Title: Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
Post by: ClouduHieh on May 16, 2018, 06:29:36 am
Collector is a gamble. After you discard the card of course. Why donít you just make the trashing optional or make it an attack so that everyone trashes too except they get down 1 you get 2 or 3  up.
I know the second idea isnít much better. But at least everyone else will be in the same gamble boat with you. And of course you would have to make it an attack card too. And I know my ideas donít really make this card any better than so so. Itís all I can think of. But something tells me the other members will have better ideas.
Title: Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
Post by: ClouduHieh on May 16, 2018, 06:42:13 am
So far sarcophagus and shipwreck are my favorites. If they were in the game as they were with no changes I would still play with them. Especially sarcophagus. You clearly have some cool cards I canít wait to see them all. And aquifer and tomb raider well tomb raider is pretty powerful and I do like powerful cards but other players wonít. As for aquifer itís just a little weak. I might still use it depending how often I can get strong buys in a game.
Title: Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
Post by: Neirai the Forgiven on May 16, 2018, 12:39:52 pm
Woo, I missed a bunch of the responses, sorry, will try to catch up. Thank you all for you comments!

I might need to do a "secret history of" at some point. It's been suggested, and I'm a narcissist, so why not?

First off let me clear up a misconception on Tomb Raider. Tomb Raider only ever lets you gain one card per turn. So in ClouduHieh's example of the double-Tomb Raider turn, on the second time your play Tomb Raider, when player 3 reveals Harem and player 4 reveals Gold, you are going to need to choose whether you want a Harem or a Gold, and pick that one. Perhaps I need to slightly adjust the text to make this more obvious (e.g., You gain a copy of one Treasure revealed this way.)

Grave Watcher, this is sort of a janky card for sure, but I do like it. If there was one thing I would change it would be to rethink the curse yourself, but really the set is done except for proofreading, plus if something is totally broken. I ran a WIP thread for months. That was the place to argue about design. But don't think I'm not listening and taking things to heart, even if I sound grumpy about it. Grave Watcher is all about presenting the player with a bad decision. Do you make it non-terminal? Do you move yourself from $7 in hand to $8? But don't let it go to your head, it's going to lose you the game if you're not careful. This thing could have been "mephistopheles" or "infernal contract" except then it was in too much danger of being clobbered by Nocturne (Nocturne was coming out when I was working on it.)

Then the attack; the attack was shoehorned in for two reasons. One, I realized I didn't have enough attacks in the game. Two, at one point this card was called "Pixiu", a Chinese dog/dragon thing that guards money and brings financial luck. So I gave it a financial luck attack. The attack rarely happens though, so it can be obnoxious but it isn't super obnoxious. As it is though, you never want to buy Grave Watchers for the attack, you buy them for the flexibility to make bad decisions. It turns out that Antiquities ends up having a whole bunch of attacks that can miss; it's almost worth saying that it's a theme of the set.

Collector, there's a weird thing that happens when you do designs. Sometimes a card that is bad gets popular with a certain segment of the fanbase. In this case, my fanbase is very small (20 people? that might be generous) and the segment of the fanbase is my wife. Since she is the person who I will play these cards with the most, her opinion matters. Anyways originally it had only the bottom rule, no looking at the top card. Also it would dump the gained card into your discard pile, so you'd really lose all the time, since you couldn't play it. So she would play this card every time she could and it would just tank her game. It was terrible. But she still used it every time. So eventually I buffed it to put the card back where you found it, which normally means you are at least breaking even every time you use it. Even then it still wasn't worth her focus. The randomness was just too, you know, random. At the same time I was reading every single entry in the Interview with Donald X for design insights to make the set better, plus more authentic, and realized I was lacking in "non-attack interactions" so I decided to add the top. If the testing still meant the card was bad all the time, I could increase the number of cards you scry before doing the random upgrade. But it appears that one is just fine. By the time I was doing all this, I had already ordered the art. If I hadn't, I would have renamed the card to "Gambler", since ClouduHieh is totally right, it's almost a total gamble.

Riches has a huge page of opinions (mostly that it is broken OP) in the WIP thread, but my testing didn't line up to the allegations that it is broken. I've never had it run away with a game yet. Eventually some players started pointing out that it's hard to use in a broken way. I'm not going to defend it though, just go read the WIP thread. But, again, like I said on reddit, the problem with my test group is that we're probably B or C-tier players. A and S tier players may be able to single-handedly use this card to go insane things. At least in Dominion a card is always available to everyone to use, as long as it doesn't become the only strategy that makes any sense every time it appears.

I am going to modify the rules to make it more obvious that having 2 Riches in play means you just blew up both Riches, though.

Thanks so much for the attention and respect you're giving this set, though! I always hope I don't sound too dismissive. I appreciate all of it, criticism included!
Title: Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
Post by: Neirai the Forgiven on May 16, 2018, 01:05:02 pm
Also to bring in more context for people, here are the cards revealed so far on my twitter.
(https://i.imgur.com/BZ3K5Gjl.png)(https://i.imgur.com/1RQrRs8l.png)(https://i.imgur.com/mvQSLuXl.png)(https://i.imgur.com/KmWf6E6l.png)(https://i.imgur.com/2PrD7B9l.png)(https://i.imgur.com/p07vlJul.png)(https://i.imgur.com/hwxwJlRl.png)

I totally made it unnecessary to go to my twitter. I suck at social media.
Title: Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
Post by: Neirai the Forgiven on May 16, 2018, 01:07:49 pm
Oh man, other secret history. Sarcophagus used to not have a limit on the cost of the card in the supply that you used it with. Then we tested it with Hunting Grounds.
Title: Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
Post by: GendoIkari on May 16, 2018, 01:11:04 pm
Recommend making smaller versions of the images for the purposes of posting online (and post just links to the high-res versions if people want to print them out). Not sure if it's because of Imgur's speed or what, but this thread is taking an extremely long time to load for me.
Title: Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
Post by: Neirai the Forgiven on May 16, 2018, 01:19:57 pm
I just switched them to imgur "Large Thumbnails". Let me know if that helped.

Edit: now when they expand they fit in your screen, too.
Title: Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
Post by: GendoIkari on May 16, 2018, 03:53:53 pm
I just switched them to imgur "Large Thumbnails". Let me know if that helped.

Edit: now when they expand they fit in your screen, too.

Much better!
Title: Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
Post by: Thanar on May 16, 2018, 04:07:34 pm
Thanks for these great cards. I'm planning to print out the whole set.

Will there eventually be a place where all the cards will be available in hi-res and with a consistent image size? That would make it much easier for me to combine the images and print them out on my printer.

Currently, most of the hi-res images from twitter are jpg with some as png (Shipwreck, Stronghold, Tomb Raider).
For Moundbuilder Village, I somehow managed to get it in both jpg and png (not sure how).

The image sizes are also not consistent:
 
Moundbuilder Village.jpg , Tomb Raider.png and the rest of the .jpgs are 1336x2048
Moundbuilder Village.png , Shipwreck.png and Stronghold.png are 1403x2151


Title: Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
Post by: Neirai the Forgiven on May 16, 2018, 06:39:33 pm
Thanar, thank you so much, that's incredible!

I'm interested in how you plan to print them; I'm also planning to print them out. Maybe we should compare notes.
The cards will all be available on my Imgur at some point. If that is not acceptable, PM me when I finish the reveals (when the rules + app are out) and I'll send you a zip with the originals.

I'm a bit worried about the size things. Maybe it's this forum vs Twitter that is the issue? Anyhow I'll do my best to make sure at some point they are consistent. When I link the full album for public consumption, let me know if they are inconsistent. I'll want to make sure they are as good as possible.
Title: Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
Post by: singletee on May 16, 2018, 07:29:33 pm
Oh man, other secret history. Sarcophagus used to not have a limit on the cost of the card in the supply that you used it with. Then we tested it with Hunting Grounds.

It's still ultra broken. Playing Sarcophagus with 2 cost reduction active lets you gain and play the entire Sarcophagus pile, then a bunch of copies of whatever other actions. Even using it on a plain cantrip makes it Lost City. And it curses opponents?
Title: Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
Post by: Thanar on May 16, 2018, 07:32:59 pm
Yes, I noticed the Sarcophagus-pile-draining ability with $2 cost reduction as well. I think a good solution for that issue is to make Sarcophagus cost an appropriate amount of debt, instead of a coin cost, eliminating the possibility of playing 2 of itself, no matter what $ cost reduction is in effect.
Title: Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
Post by: singletee on May 16, 2018, 07:34:48 pm
Yes, I noticed the pile-draining ability with $2 cost reduction as well. I think a good solution for it is to make Sarcophagus cost an appropriate amount of debt, instead of a coin cost, eliminating the possibility of gaining 2 of itself, no matter what $ cost reduction is in effect.

Yeah, either that, or go the Vampire route, and just have it specify non-Sarcophagus.
Title: Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
Post by: Fragasnap on May 16, 2018, 08:31:59 pm
Aquifer is a Peddler with a drawback (being that it's only non-terminal for other Aquifers) that comes with an extra benefit of a rarely relevant Reaction--especially since it can only be triggered during your turn which strongly limits the number of cards that can activate it.
Peddler is typically valued at about $4.5, and I think the drawback is significant enough to pull it down to $3-ish. That Reaction is not worth much. I'd guess Aquifer is weak.

Artifact gives a lot of really hard to math options since you have to think about the cost of the Treasure, the $ production of the Treasure, and that Artifact itself produces $1.
It's options come out to be: $1; or $2, gain a Copper; or if $>=$2 then $0, gain a Silver; or if $>=$5 -$2 gain a Gold; and I won't bother with what gaining additional Artifacts will look like since it puts you back in the loop. I don't think it's all that strong either, so I'm not sure it's worth the headache when you have the much more compelling Treasure Trove and Lucky Coin

Riches forced trash will typically be a huge benefit. Even just using it once with a bunch of Coppers to slim your deck down and never playing it again (as though it were Chapel) will probably make it really good, let alone that one could possibly play it with one or two Coppers to buy whatever you wanted and slim at the same time. It should probably cost $5, maybe even $6.
Whatever it's worth: I cannot imagine a Kingdom where I wouldn't open with Riches as written. Even if I got a 5\2 split, I'd probably only open favor strong junkers over Riches.

I would guess that Sarcophagus is overpowered. Multiplayer games will likely be miserably short with it between draining Action piles via Sarcophagi plays which will be common because of the on-buy that encourages Sarcophagi to be spam-bought. That on-buy is such a good effect that it takes a sub-$2 card into a $5 card in Ill-Gotten Gains.
I'd drop the on-buy and increase its cost to $7.

Collector, Grave Watcher, and Tomb Raider are cute and unique.
I like that Collector's benefit to all players works to enable other players' Collectors, while its one-card trashing is balanced by forcing to gain a card sharing a type with it (meaning that hitting an Estate turn 3\4 isn't a game-win). Could you name it Financier with that art? It might be a bit anachronistic.
Grave Watcher is a Copper junker, but is bounded by aligning it with a Curse which I think keeps it sufficiently in check.
Tomb Raider is probably more useful as a defense against other Attacks than a Treasure copier, but all its pieces come together nicely.
Title: Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
Post by: Neirai the Forgiven on May 17, 2018, 09:33:40 am
Thanks for the feedback and interest, guys!

After careful consideration, I've decided to give some significant nerfs to Sarcophagus. Sarcophagus will now only play the targeted card once, and will only be able to target cards that cost "up to $2 less than it."

Overall, I realized that this makes Sarcophagus still better than Band of Misfits, a $5 card, as it will trigger on-gain and on-trash events, and retain its own on-buy Curse event. While this makes the Sarcophagus less attractive than when it was an OPAF throne, it's still a lot of power to pack into a mere $1 cost increase vs Band of Misfits.
Title: Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
Post by: GendoIkari on May 17, 2018, 10:03:54 am
Thanks for the feedback and interest, guys!

After careful consideration, I've decided to give some significant nerfs to Sarcophagus. Sarcophagus will now only play the targeted card once, and will only be able to target cards that cost "up to $2 less than it."

Overall, I realized that this makes Sarcophagus still better than Band of Misfits, a $5 card, as it will trigger on-gain and on-trash events, and retain its own on-buy Curse event. While this makes the Sarcophagus less attractive than when it was an OPAF throne, it's still a lot of power to pack into a mere $1 cost increase vs Band of Misfits.

It's not always better than Band of Misfits though, as it loses any while-in-play abilities of cards. To me, the big questions is if it's different enough from Band of Misfits to be worth having. And I think the answer is "probably". But it's still best to think of it as a Band of Misfits variant. One that benefits from on-gain and on-trash, while not benefiting from while-in-play. And also has the interesting side effect of draining piles. Also, with things like Watchtower, you can keep the card, which sounds like a powerful combo. Oh, you also get to keep any Reserve cards you gain with it. That might be too good.
Title: Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
Post by: Neirai the Forgiven on May 17, 2018, 11:07:57 am
Hmm, I just realized that there is no official ruling on what happens to the effect that occurs on your next turn if you trash a Duration card that is in play.

I would assume that there is a Variants and Fan Cards precedent, though. If so, can someone tell me what it is?

Otherwise I will have to make a ruling, which may very well be that Sarcophagus stays in play until the Duration card is finished, then trashes it.

Edit: Ignore me; Procession has the same quirks.
Title: Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
Post by: GendoIkari on May 17, 2018, 03:44:51 pm
Hmm, I just realized that there is no official ruling on what happens to the effect that occurs on your next turn if you trash a Duration card that is in play.

I would assume that there is a Variants and Fan Cards precedent, though. If so, can someone tell me what it is?

Otherwise I will have to make a ruling, which may very well be that Sarcophagus stays in play until the Duration card is finished, then trashes it.

Edit: Ignore me; Procession has the same quirks.

Yeah there's definitely official rules. Not just Procession (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Procession), but Bonfire (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Bonfire). Duration cards definitely don't have to do their normal thing next turn. The official rules would also cause Sarcophagus to stay in play until next turn.
Title: Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
Post by: Neirai the Forgiven on May 17, 2018, 04:43:32 pm
Yeah there's definitely official rules. Not just Procession (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Procession), but Bonfire (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Bonfire). Duration cards definitely don't have to do their normal thing next turn. The official rules would also cause Sarcophagus to stay in play until next turn.

Hmm, according to the Procession wiki article:
Quote
If you use Procession on a Duration card, Procession will be discarded in the same turn's Clean-up, since the Duration card will no longer be in play.

If I'm understanding this correctly, the Sarcophagused card will be trashed immediately after it is first played (before the 'next turn' is resolved) and Sarcophagus will be discarded. Then the next turn effect will trigger anyhow, but without the card being in play.

I dislike this a fair bit, but it is the official rules.
Title: Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
Post by: GendoIkari on May 17, 2018, 05:42:36 pm
Yeah there's definitely official rules. Not just Procession (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Procession), but Bonfire (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Bonfire). Duration cards definitely don't have to do their normal thing next turn. The official rules would also cause Sarcophagus to stay in play until next turn.

Hmm, according to the Procession wiki article:
Quote
If you use Procession on a Duration card, Procession will be discarded in the same turn's Clean-up, since the Duration card will no longer be in play.

If I'm understanding this correctly, the Sarcophagused card will be trashed immediately after it is first played (before the 'next turn' is resolved) and Sarcophagus will be discarded. Then the next turn effect will trigger anyhow, but without the card being in play.

I dislike this a fair bit, but it is the official rules.

Right, forgot that rule was actually changed. In the Seaside rules (first edition); cards that played Durations stayed in play until the Duration was done doing anything. But it was later errata'd to be discarded when the Duration is discarded.

Actually the new rule's wording seems inaccurate; it says they are discarded at the same time as the Duration card, but in the case of Procession; that Duration card is never discarded. It should say discarded during the cleanup phase of the turn that the Duration left play.

If you don't like the effect it has on Sarcophagus, there's 2 options...

1) Limit it to non-Duration cards.

2) Trash the card next turn instead of this one. But that's kind of terrible; you have to make Sarcophagus a Duration also, and then it only makes sense when playing other Durations.
Title: Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
Post by: Neirai the Forgiven on May 17, 2018, 06:13:56 pm
GendoIkari, thanks so much for your replies. Your insights and experience are super helpful.

I have a third option, which could be to say "when it [the played card] leaves play, trash it." This would fix the duration issue but I'd have to look at all the other odd cards to see what it would do with them.

Update: I've decided to just go with the official rules; and not try to tamper with it. If I chose "when it leaves play, trash it," then the card would be confusing in cases of the lose track of rule -- if the card leaves play for a reason other than Sarcophagus, players might interpret "when it leaves play, trash it" as interrupting that and trashing the card (it wouldn't.) Plus then you lose the cool interaction of the card not staying in play, making the card more of a Band of Misfits clone. But the real clincher is Cultist. If Sarcophagus trashes a Cultist during Clean-up, what happens? It's not worth the headache.
Title: Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
Post by: Fragasnap on May 18, 2018, 08:59:28 pm
I definitely don't like Sarcophagus with it only playing cards once plus the Ill-Gotten Gains clause.
It stomps all over Ill-Gotten Gains, is made incredibly similar to Band of Misfits, and doesn't resolve my biggest issue anyway: That multiplayer games are likely to end quickly by draining piles.

If you don't mind a crazy wholesale suggestion:
Quote
Sarcophagus
Types: Action
Cost: $6
Gain an Action other than Sarcophagus from the trash, playing it twice. When it leaves play, return it to the Supply.
Setup: Put one of each Action other than Sarcophagus into the trash per player.
This can double everything only once per player without extra trashing, but it can't end the game because it is putting cards back into the Supply (which lets it avert timing issues with trashing during Clean-Up while also avoiding the annoyance of Duration tracking).
You could also vary the setup clause to put different Actions into the trash, but with the limited number of plays and the loss of the Ill-Gotten Gains effect, I think playing anything will be okay.
Title: Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
Post by: ClouduHieh on May 18, 2018, 11:57:30 pm
Option 1 for sarcophagus would be good. Iím creating my own enchantress variant. But Iím keeping all durations and reserves out of the equation. So you could do the same. My fan expansion is called snowline.
Title: Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
Post by: ClouduHieh on May 19, 2018, 12:00:43 am
And donít forget lurker, and grave robber they can effect sarcophagus too. But donít worry too much about. An expansion on its own doesnít always have to work well with other expansions. Nocturne for instance.
Title: Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
Post by: ClouduHieh on May 19, 2018, 12:20:30 am
Thatís why I liked it sarcophagus that is cause it was like Iíll gotten gains but better. It does cost 6 so it is a little harder to buy. Iím probably an A player but most of my friends are C players and maybe 2 of them are B players. So when making an expansion for you and your friends itís okay to have a few powerful cards. C players arenít really gonna pick up on the overpowering thing. And it ends the game a little earlier so what. Half of time we never finish the game anyway and see who had the most points at that point. One time we had game where player won with 12 points as the highest score and 2 players had a minus score. And we still had a blast! Cause in the end all that matters is if you and your friends had fun. So it doesnít matter if some of your cards are overpowered, a gamble or like feast from the bace game (useless). And that was made by creator of dominion.

I love artifact! Itís the treasure variant of storyteller.

Looking forward to seeing the rest of your cards.
Title: Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
Post by: ClouduHieh on May 19, 2018, 03:07:50 pm
Inspector isnít horrible but itís not much of an attack. Cause you have to hurt yourself in order to hurt them. Unless you play it and you end up with only good cards in your hand. Which in this case itís better than embassy you could still have to discard a lot of good cards with that one. But with inspector if you have to discard some good cards they may also have to discard too. But that doesnít happen to mid game before you start buying nothing but provinces. Also it doesnít work too well with weak cards. Cause if you discard a copper and a estate. They can choose to discard the estate if they have it which they probably will. So you may have to discard 2 coppers which may not help you either. If you wanted to make it a slightly better attack. Why donít you instead make it where you discard yours that you revealed. But instead of them discarding the card (estate) they topdeck it. That way it slightly ruins there next draw. And in this case they might go with copper more often. And in this case if you discarded 2 victory cards they would have to topdeck one. Which would make more like burrecrat an attack card that becomes more useful at the end of the game.
Title: Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
Post by: Neirai the Forgiven on May 19, 2018, 06:21:28 pm
Hi guys! Thanks again for the feedback and attention!

Fragasnap, while I'm unlikely to change the Sarcophagus much more than I already have (because of testing burden) I really, really like your idea, although it would lead to the game ending fast as well (4 player game? piles only have 6 cards!) so I'd probably do it as 2 of each action in the trash.

ClouduHieh, I do really like the idea of Inspectors putting cards on top of the deck. I'll try it out.

On other news, I am also trying out a version of Aquifer that replaces the reaction with just being able to choose to gain an Aquifer, and maybe costs $4.
Title: Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
Post by: Neirai the Forgiven on May 22, 2018, 03:41:14 pm
Sorry, everyone, I've been late in posting the new art reveals:
(https://i.imgur.com/JTEwpMUl.png)
This is a rules update to prevent the first-come-then-win exploitation of this card.

(https://i.imgur.com/dq31Bvcl.png)(https://i.imgur.com/sYssoBSl.png)(https://i.imgur.com/QNhjdBJl.png)(https://i.imgur.com/BUr4WoSl.png)(https://i.imgur.com/fVgG9uEl.png)(https://i.imgur.com/4AUiQT3l.png)
Title: Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
Post by: Holunder9 on May 22, 2018, 04:10:41 pm
So Sarcophagus is now a mixture between BoM and IGG. The previous double-play version was in my opinion more interesting and could have easily fixed via preventing the card from gaining, throning and trashing all cards but itself.

While similar to Festival and Conclave Agora looks sound.

Archaeologist is good but I would price it at $6 (better than Catacombs so it cannot cost $5).

Inspector is pretty bad. Like worse than +2 Cards. You want to discard junk anyway so the Attack doesn't really hurt unless it is multiplayer, you have 3 cards left in your hand after two previous Inspector attacks, you play Inspector and then have to discard something good.

Profiteer looks inflexible and bad compared to Bridge. The Reaction is pretty restrictive as it only does something in the presence of gainers. But even then, e.g. Workshop, gain $4, discard a Profiteer to exchange for Gold, discard a Profiteer to exchange for Province is not impressive.

Boulder Trap
is a neat idea. I especially like that Indy is female now and would suggest to put a bit of the rules onto the card, kind of like with Changeling.
Title: Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
Post by: ThetaSigma12 on May 22, 2018, 04:20:00 pm
Agora looks bad. Festival is already kinda meh, and this just seems like a worse version. Villages + Silver gainers don't usually go well together.
Title: Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
Post by: Neirai the Forgiven on May 22, 2018, 04:25:53 pm
With boulder trap, the issue becomes formatting; it theory it should be something like

Quote
Boulder Trap - Trap - $3
-1VP
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
When you trash this, each other player gains a Curse.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
When you gain a card from the top of a Supply pile, if this is the next card, gain it.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Setup: Shuffle one Boulder Trap into each Kingdom pile.

That gets a bit crazy. But I will definitely entertain any feedback on how to avoid having three horizontal lines on the card.
Title: Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
Post by: Holunder9 on May 22, 2018, 04:37:45 pm
You could get rid of one line via something like this:

In games using this, during Setup shuffle one Boulder Trap into each Kingdom Supply pile and put the piles face down with the top card face up. When you gain a card, if this is the next card, also gain it.
Title: Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
Post by: Asper on May 23, 2018, 03:23:22 am
Sarcophagus could say "Trash it when it leaves play". At least from my latest point of knowledge, a card is still in play while leaving play (Band of Misfits can do Hermit's discard stuff), so lose-track doesn't apply. Unless that has changed, too, by now. Lose-track applies to me.