Dominion Strategy Forum
Dominion => Dominion General Discussion => Topic started by: ThetaSigma12 on January 21, 2018, 03:06:00 pm
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Somebody once said that when you rank Events you should put them where you think they should go and then move them up 10 spaces. I don't know whether that applies here, but it's food for thought.
**Since the Events are ranked on the other lists and there is no list from last year to compare the events too, I am simply posting the names and places of the Events in order.**
34) Annex (Empires)
33) Raid (Adventures)
32) Banquet (Empires)
31) Ritual (Empires)
30) Tax (Empires)
29) Quest (Adventures)
28) Wedding (Empires)
27) Conquest (Empires)
26) Windfall (Empires)
25) Pilgrimage (Adventures)
24) Salt the Earth (Empires)
23) Ball (Adventures)
22) Scouting Party (Adventures)
21) Seaway (Adventures)
20) Advance (Empires)
19) Trade (Adventures)
18) Delve (Empires)
17) Mission (Adventures)
16) Training (Adventures)
15) Expedition (Adventures)
14) Travelling Fair (Adventures)
13) Triumph (Empires)
12) Borrow (Adventures)
11) Plan (Adventures)
10) Summon (Promo)
9) Dominate (Empires)
8) Save (Adventures)
7) Alms (Adventures)
6) Inheritance (Adventures)
5) Bonfire (Adventures)
4) Lost Arts (Adventures)
3) Ferry (Adventures)
2) Pathfinding (Adventures)
1) Donate (Empires)
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Events were in fact ranked in previous years (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=17353.0), although nobody has put them up on the wiki yet. Here are the ranking changes:
34) ▼5 Annex (Empires)
33) ▲1 Raid (Adventures)
32) ▼1 Banquet (Empires)
31) ▼3 Ritual (Empires)
30) ▲2 Tax (Empires)
29) ▲4 Quest (Adventures)
28) ▼3 Wedding (Empires)
27) ▲3 Conquest (Empires)
26) ▲1 Windfall (Empires)
25) ▼1 Pilgrimage (Adventures)
24) ▼11 Salt the Earth (Empires)
23) =0 Ball (Adventures)
22) ▲2 Scouting Party (Adventures)
21) ▲1 Seaway (Adventures)
20) ▼6 Advance (Empires)
19) ▼1 Trade (Adventures)
18) ▼2 Delve (Empires)
17) ▲4 Mission (Adventures)
16) ▼1 Training (Adventures)
15) ▲2 Expedition (Adventures)
14) ▲6 Travelling Fair (Adventures)
13) ▼1 Triumph (Empires)
12) ▼1 Borrow (Adventures)
11) ▲8 Plan (Adventures)
10) =0 Summon (Promo)
9) ▼3 Dominate (Empires)
8) ▼1 Save (Adventures)
7) ▼2 Alms (Adventures)
6) ▼2 Inheritance (Adventures)
5) ▲3 Bonfire (Adventures)
4) ▲1 Lost Arts (Adventures)
3) ▼1 Ferry (Adventures)
2) ▲1 Pathfinding (Adventures)
1) =0 Donate (Empires)
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Hooray for Plan!
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How can we all go so mad about Ruined Market then rank Seaway down at 21!? One seaway buy is like getting $4-cost with a free ruined market and lost city for $5 and 1 buy rather than $9, 3 buys, and a one-shot lab to your opponent!! Then you can get more at $4 a pop!
On boards with other +buy it's very often a solid buy anyway, which can't be said for RM. You can pick up that +buy without diverting from your build, and you can put on mad pile pressure in situations in which it would otherwise require sacrificing something else.
It's irrelevant in games with one solid $5+-card race such as rebuild, governor, grand market, or goons, but so are most things in those games.
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Hooray for Plan!
Yeah, there are only like 9 more places to go before it reaches the ranking it deserves.
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True. "Better than a ruin" is not a huge endorsement. But the ruins list is pretty clear that sometimes you want to buy ruined market. Seaway is RM + Lost City + $4 card. So anytime you want RM (~30% of the time), Seaway is incredible, superb, a must. I think that puts it above most events, as that's far from its only functionality.
Plan also seems low at #9. It's obscene on 3/4 openings, trashes earlier than almost anything else, and plays well with almost anything bar donate.
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I really don’t like the “Ruined market plus Lost City” analogy at all. While all of these card effect analogies are really stupid, at least call it like, a Market Square, instead of something that weirdly implies that Seaway helps you cycle or gives actions or something.
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Events were in fact ranked in previous years (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=17353.0), although nobody has put them up on the wiki yet.
Thanks. I guess I was only given the results for the Landmarks from last year, but not the Events.
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10) =0 Summon (Promo)
9) ▼3 Dominate (Empires)
8) ▼1 Save (Adventures)
7) ▼2 Alms (Adventures)
6) ▼2 Inheritance (Adventures)
5) ▲3 Bonfire (Adventures)
4) ▲1 Lost Arts (Adventures)
3) ▼1 Ferry (Adventures)
2) ▲1 Pathfinding (Adventures)
1) =0 Donate (Empires)
Does the dissonance between the direction of the arrows and the ordering of the list bother anyone else?
To me, the arrow next to Pathfinding says it went 1 spot up the list, implying that it used to be where Donate is now. I think if arrows are going to be used, they should match the order of the list, like so:
1) =0 Donate (Empires)
2) ▲1 Pathfinding (Adventures)
3) ▼1 Ferry (Adventures)
4) ▲1 Lost Arts (Adventures)
5) ▲3 Bonfire (Adventures)
6) ▼2 Inheritance (Adventures)
7) ▼2 Alms (Adventures)
8) ▼1 Save (Adventures)
9) ▼3 Dominate (Empires)
10) =0 Summon (Promo)
Shouldn't the best cards -- the most vital information -- be at the top of the list anyway?
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10) =0 Summon (Promo)
9) ▼3 Dominate (Empires)
8) ▼1 Save (Adventures)
7) ▼2 Alms (Adventures)
6) ▼2 Inheritance (Adventures)
5) ▲3 Bonfire (Adventures)
4) ▲1 Lost Arts (Adventures)
3) ▼1 Ferry (Adventures)
2) ▲1 Pathfinding (Adventures)
1) =0 Donate (Empires)
Does the dissonance between the direction of the arrows and the ordering of the list bother anyone else?
To me, the arrow next to Pathfinding says it went 1 spot up the list, implying that it used to be where Donate is now. I think if arrows are going to be used, they should match the order of the list, like so:
1) =0 Donate (Empires)
2) ▲1 Pathfinding (Adventures)
3) ▼1 Ferry (Adventures)
4) ▲1 Lost Arts (Adventures)
5) ▲3 Bonfire (Adventures)
6) ▼2 Inheritance (Adventures)
7) ▼2 Alms (Adventures)
8) ▼1 Save (Adventures)
9) ▼3 Dominate (Empires)
10) =0 Summon (Promo)
Shouldn't the best cards -- the most vital information -- be at the top of the list anyway?
No.... that's just not how "top 10" lists work in general. If you watch any videos of "top 10" or "top 5" anything; they will pretty much always end with "and the #1 ____ is......".
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No.... that's just not how "top 10" lists work in general. If you watch any videos of "top 10" or "top 5" anything; they will pretty much always end with "and the #1 ____ is......".
I think it depends on the medium and what the list-publisher's motivations are. If they want to sell page views or advertising spots, then it makes sense to build suspense and make you sit through the entire list.
In a setting that is about effective communication of the most important information, it makes zero sense to front-load the trivial details.
But... if you really want to display the list in reversed order, then I think it would make sense to flip the direction of the arrows while leaving the color the same.
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Option 2:
10) =0 Summon (Promo)
9) ▲3 Dominate (Empires)
8) ▲1 Save (Adventures)
7) ▲2 Alms (Adventures)
6) ▲2 Inheritance (Adventures)
5) ▼3 Bonfire (Adventures)
4) ▼1 Lost Arts (Adventures)
3) ▲1 Ferry (Adventures)
2) ▼1 Pathfinding (Adventures)
1) =0 Donate (Empires)
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Anyone else notice how much more powerful the Adventures events appear to be? Other than Donate (obviously), Dominate, Summon, and a few others the list is pretty much split between bottom half of Empires and a top half of Adventures.
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Anyone else notice how much more powerful the Adventures events appear to be? Other than Donate (obviously), Dominate, Summon, and a few others the list is pretty much split between bottom half of Empires and a top half of Adventures.
I dunno, that's just the language I've always seen used... you say "that song moved up to number one this week"... you don't say "moved down to number one".
"Up" isn't a physical direction on the list. It's an order in the rankings. To "move up" is to get better; it's completely unrelated to the order that the list is written in.
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Anyone else notice how much more powerful the Adventures events appear to be? Other than Donate (obviously), Dominate, Summon, and a few others the list is pretty much split between bottom half of Empires and a top half of Adventures.
Is this the explanation for that?
I used every good Event idea that I had in Adventures. Still, why not try to make more? VP tokens helped a lot, and I ended up with 13 new Events.
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25) ▼1 Pilgrimage (Adventures)
24) ▼11 Salt the Earth (Empires)
How can this be, when Pilgrimage was rated higher than Salt the Earth in the $4 list (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=18153.msg741891#msg741891)?
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I really don’t like the “Ruined market plus Lost City” analogy at all. While all of these card effect analogies are really stupid, at least call it like, a Market Square, instead of something that weirdly implies that Seaway helps you cycle or gives actions or something.
Seaway helps you cycle exactly as much as getting a lost city and ruined market together does, which is to say not at all (bar from the card you gain with it, which was also included in my comparison).
I know it's odd, but my point was to compare seaway and ruined market, and the difference between them is lost city and whatever card you gain with the seaway.
I agree that a simpler way to explain seaway is as giving you a free market square sans reaction with your chosen card, but a market square sans reaction is the same as a lost city and a ruined market that always turn up together, and the latter explanation allows for the direct comparison with ruined market.
Obviously tons of things change these equivalences, like TfB and things like vagrant or WoW that care about types and cost for draw, and pileout considerations are different etc etc, but I think people understand that what's being considered is the on-play action effects of the cards for your hand and action/coin/buy pools, for which, for instance, SeawayedPoacher = Poacher + Market Square = Lost City + Ruined Market + Poacher
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The problem isn't the analogy, the problem is that Ruined Market is still going to hurt your deck more often than it helps, and it hurts a lot when it does. So Seaway isn't amazing just because there's an edge case where you want to buy Ruined Market.
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25) ▼1 Pilgrimage (Adventures)
24) ▼11 Salt the Earth (Empires)
How can this be, when Pilgrimage was rated higher than Salt the Earth in the $4 list (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=18153.msg741891#msg741891)?
That's a question for someone who has access to the statistics, but I can see how it's at least mathematically possible. Suppose 55% of people rank Pilgrimage over Salt, but when people rank Salt higher, they put it a lot higher in the event rankings, while only slightly higher in the $4-cost rankings. More than anything I think this indicates how close Salt and Pilgrimage really are.
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The problem isn't the analogy, the problem is that Ruined Market is still going to hurt your deck more often than it helps, and it hurts a lot when it does. So Seaway isn't amazing just because there's an edge case where you want to buy Ruined Market.
That makes sense. Maybe I just hugely overestimate the usefulness of ruined market.
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The problem isn't the analogy, the problem is that Ruined Market is still going to hurt your deck more often than it helps, and it hurts a lot when it does. So Seaway isn't amazing just because there's an edge case where you want to buy Ruined Market.
That makes sense. Maybe I just hugely overestimate the usefulness of ruined market.
There's a context to consider. Wanting Ruined Market even ~25% of the time is super huge compared to any of the other Ruins. A card that is desirable ~25% of the time is terrible compared to many of the other $4 and $5 cards. There is a much lower ceiling for how good one of the Ruins has to be to top the Ruins list.
I'm not claimung Seaway is bad. It's just that saying Seaway has all the benefits of Ruined Market is not a very compelling argument for Seaway being good. After all, Woodcutter didn't make the cut in 2nd Edition.
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And let's be clear here: Seaway is good. The stuff that's above it is just better.
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10) =0 Summon (Promo)
9) ▼3 Dominate (Empires)
8) ▼1 Save (Adventures)
7) ▼2 Alms (Adventures)
6) ▼2 Inheritance (Adventures)
5) ▲3 Bonfire (Adventures)
4) ▲1 Lost Arts (Adventures)
3) ▼1 Ferry (Adventures)
2) ▲1 Pathfinding (Adventures)
1) =0 Donate (Empires)
Does the dissonance between the direction of the arrows and the ordering of the list bother anyone else?
Think of it this way: the arrow points at the spot where the card used to be.
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True. "Better than a ruin" is not a huge endorsement. But the ruins list is pretty clear that sometimes you want to buy ruined market. Seaway is RM + Lost City + $4 card. So anytime you want RM (~30% of the time), Seaway is incredible, superb, a must. I think that puts it above most events, as that's far from its only functionality.
Sorry for this, I tried to be a bit tongue in cheek, but I can see how it might have come off a bit as saying that Ruined Market is an actually good card. That's not true at all. There are situations where it shines and you even end up buying it, which is enough to easily make it the top ruin, but it's mostly an awful card in your deck that you should mostly try to thrash ASAP just like other ruins. In most games it works very much like the other Ruins, where it can give a very minor benefit that can occasionally matter. It's just that in heavy engine games, you should really watch out for Ruined Market, specially if it's the only source of +buy.
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I feel like Seaway is pretty great. +Buy is one of those things I seem to wish I had more often.