Dominion Strategy Forum

Dominion => Dominion General Discussion => Topic started by: ThetaSigma12 on January 21, 2018, 02:45:35 pm

Title: The Dominion Cards Lists 2017 Edition: Landmarks
Post by: ThetaSigma12 on January 21, 2018, 02:45:35 pm
Well, before Seprix comes in with the Boons and Hexes here's the next list to distract you from whatever you should be getting done. Landmarks were introduced in Empires and give players (, or in some cases take it away, for accomplishing certain goals. Nobody really knows how the heck to rank them, but it's kinda "how much does this change my strategy." At dead last we have Baths, for instance, you're never gonna mulligan a turn just for 2 ( and when you do it's more of a happy coincidence than a strategic move. I've layed off going in to deep on formatting and comments because I'm lazy and nobody really cares about the Landmarks. Click to zoom in on the Landmarks.

( #21 ▼2 Baths

Here in dead last, we have Baths in all it's glory, giving you 2( if you had a dud turn or just trashed. It doesn't really change how you play the game because you wanna trash anyway and 2( isn't really worth the turn. That said, it can make the difference and helps defend against bad shuffles.

( #20 ▼4 Basillica

A big drop of 4 points is Basilica, and it was probably deserved. The problem you'll see with these lower landmarks is that they give a small amount of ( for something you wouldn't want to do/would do anyway.

( #19 ▲1 Aqueduct

When there are only 18 Voters fluctuations of just a couple spots doesn't mean much, but Aqueduct dropped a space anyways. It can make you pick up that extra Silver or Gold to get some tokens off, but Treasures just aren't what they used to be so it's not often a really good move.

( #18 ▼1 Colonnade

Connolade falls into the category of something you'd probably do anyways. Anywho, these 2( landmarks are boring me, can we move on?

( #17 ▲1 Arena

I guess we can't move on yet, there's still more of these. Don't be afraid to open double Ambassador I guess? Moving on.

( #16 ▲5 Labyrinth

Here's a big jump of 5 places, it turns out that gaining more cards in a turn is actually something easy and beneficial enough that putting in the extra effort to do it is worth a couple points.

(  #15 ▼5 Obelisk

Obelisk dropped a bunch of points, it seems making a random card a Harem isn't as important as we thought. Still, it might make winning that Village split just a bit more crucial.

( #14 =0 Palace

Stuck in the middle here is Palace which gives you points for Copper - Silver - Gold sets. It's a Duchy's worth though, which explains why it's higher. Get 2 silvers and a couple Golds and bam, Province!

( #13 ▲2 Battlefield

The Highest of the "Take 2( from this" Landmarks is Battlefield, and there's a reason. Battlefield gives you points for getting points so it helps you with your goal, it's not just a tack-on like Basilica. It comes into play when it matters, and you can generally ignore it for the first half of the game while you build. And if you think Mill is weak (Hint: It's not) this might convince you to pick one up early and try it out.

( ▲1 Defiled Shrine

It's hard to know when you want to pick up the Curse, but you're gonna want to get it eventually. Defiled Shrine isn't as fun in games without trashing, because the best part is picking up a 5 VP curse with a spare buy and then Watchtowering it away.

( #11 ▼7 Fountain

Fountain fell 7 places, and that teaches you a lot about Landmarks. It's not about how much ( give you, it's about how much more ( they can give you than your opponents. In games with Fountain, everyone will probably either have 10+ Coppers or nobody will have enough. And when everyone gets the 15( payout it's a moot point. Still, #11 isn't bad and if you're the only one to get 10 Coppers it's a lot of points to take in.

( ▼5 Bandit Fort

Bandit Fort is more ignorable now apparently. Who let Lord Rattington vote?

( #9 =0 Mountain Pass

Here's a good card that illustrates the principle I was yammering on about for Fountain. When you're the only one getting the points it suddenly becomes that much more of a difference.

( #8 ▼1 Triumphal Arch

Gotta spam those Actions! Triumphal Arch is the antithesis of Orchard; getting a bunch of the same actions is nicer than many different ones.

( #7 ▲4 Tower

Tower rose 4 places. Emptying Copper or Silver piles is probably the most powerful combo, Banquet + Cache + Tower is a force to be reckoned with.

( #6 ▲2 Orchard

Points, Actions, need I say more?

( #5 ▲7 Tomb

In fifth, we have Tomb with a big rise. The main thing you need to think through with Tomb that isn't obvious is Trashing Attacks like Swlinder are way less spammable, and powerful Trashing rushes with cards like Lurker can suddenly get a lot of points without ever greening.

( #4 ▲2 Wolf Den

The top landmarks haven't changed much, they've shuffled around but are largely the same. Wolf Den makes that Duchy worth nothing, or lets that Ruins completely screw you over. Careful deck tracking is a must unless you want to end with half a dozen less points then you thought you would.

( #3 ▼1 Museum

Nobody loves losing points from Wolf Den, but everyone loves gaining some! Diversify your engine, pick up a fairgrounds, and head to the Black Market and you're suddnely raking in the points.

( #2 ▼1 Wall

Wall has a habit of completely changing how a board plays. Trashing is worth way more, building is worth way less, big decks are bad, and that player who swindled your Mountebank into a Cache is really pissing you off.

( #1 ▲2 Keep

And in the top space, we have Keep, with frequent 10 point swings in 2P.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2017 Edition: Landmarks
Post by: trivialknot on January 22, 2018, 10:58:10 am
Hey, some of us care about landmarks.  I think these easily deserve more discussion than the Ruins rankings.

Keep is now in its rightful place at the top.  When a single treasure nets you a marginal 5 VP, almost as much as a province, it's kind of like there are 3 extra province piles.  And there are lots of engines that perform poorly against a big money strategy with a 15 VP lead.

Speaking of which, I don't agree with the drop in Fountain at all.  Sure, in most games, both players go for it, or they both ignore it.  But which strategy you choose depends heavily on the hypothetical non-mirror game.

Wall could stand to go lower.  I ranked it first last year too, but now I think it's overrated.  Like with Tomb, the problem is that it incentivizes things you already wanted to do.  It makes thinners and junkers even more powerful, and nerfs weak cantrips and gainers, but it's nothing special.

I'm honestly surprised that Baths wasn't dead last before.  People thought Labyrinth was last?  Why?

Tower could go even higher.  Emptying copper or silver is a powerful combo, but you're missing the other powerful combo, which is to cause any kingdom card pileout.  Empty three piles quickly enough, and you win.  Triumphal Arch can do the same, but it doesn't work quite so well, because players contest the piles and then nobody wants to do the work of emptying the third.

Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2017 Edition: Landmarks
Post by: faust on January 22, 2018, 01:18:48 pm
I think Tomb still isn't high enough. It's the only Landmark (apart from some Keep games) that can really function as your sole source of VP. It regularly allows engines to just mill through piles for the three-pile without ever slowing down.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2017 Edition: Landmarks
Post by: 7string on January 24, 2018, 05:01:13 pm
Maybe we could get these 2017 Landmark results added to the wiki page for "List of Cards by Qvist Rankings"?
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2017 Edition: Landmarks
Post by: 7string on January 26, 2018, 09:27:14 pm
OK, I went ahead and added the 2017 results for Landmarks to the List of Cards by Qvist Rankings site in the Wiki, and added a link to this thread for the 2017 results.  I dropped "Ed." in the column headings because we are not doing more than one poll a year now, and it seems to be enough to just say 2016 and 2017 and save the column width for future years.  I double checked the Wiki site with this page, but it never hurts to have someone else review it, so let me know if you see any issues.

My first Wiki update...  I didn't have a Wiki account until yesterday although I have been a forum member for a number of years and participated in the 2014 ranking.  I have greatly appreciated the value of the Cards List Rankings - they are probably what I reference more often than anything.  Just wanted to assist a bit in keeping the Wiki up to date since it looks like so much of the work has been done by Werothegreat recently.

I'll take a look at Boons and Hexes as well unless someone was planning to do those...
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2017 Edition: Landmarks
Post by: ackmondual on January 26, 2018, 11:33:02 pm
I did a poll about the 6 Landmarks that set out 6 VP per player here....

BGG and DS seem to imitate each other.  Who knew? :D


Always curious to see if Obelisk on the 1E cards would've been enough to save them!