Dominion Strategy Forum
Dominion => Dominion General Discussion => Topic started by: ehunt on December 23, 2017, 02:35:15 pm
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My sense is that Goat is a phenomenal card. Even if it didn't start in your deck, it utterly smokes, say, Loan. Is it worth skipping Chapel if Goat's on the board? Skipping masquerade?
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Chapel yes, Masq no.
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I wouldn’t always skip Chapel on a Goat board, but I certainly would a lot of the time. Depends on the cycling, need for early economy, etc. In general I would get 1 additional trasher on a Goat board where you go hyper thin.
Goat’s really good.
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Goat is the greatest of all time.
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Goat’s really good.
Would you say it's really goad?
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My sense is that Goat is a phenomenal card. Even if it didn't start in your deck, it utterly smokes, say, Loan. Is it worth skipping Chapel if Goat's on the board? Skipping masquerade?
But Loan cycles and is effectively worth 1$ more than Goat when trashing copper. Is the fact that Goat can trash Estates and doesn’t trip over Silvers and other copies of itself really enough to say that Goat smokes Loan?
I am talking about hypothetical Goat that you can buy, obviously Heirloom-Goat is a lot better than non-Heirloom Loan.
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My sense is that Goat is a phenomenal card. Even if it didn't start in your deck, it utterly smokes, say, Loan. Is it worth skipping Chapel if Goat's on the board? Skipping masquerade?
But Loan cycles and is effectively worth 1$ more than Goat when trashing copper. Is the fact that Goat can trash Estates and doesn’t trip over Silvers and other copies of itself really enough to say that Goat smokes Loan?
Yes.
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It's so hard to find those last two coppers with your loan.
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It's so hard to find those last two coppers with your loan.
Well, I don't reckon it's that much easier with a Goat.
Besides, just getting 5 of the Coppers is already a marked improvement
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My sense is that Goat is a phenomenal card. Even if it didn't start in your deck, it utterly smokes, say, Loan. Is it worth skipping Chapel if Goat's on the board? Skipping masquerade?
But Loan cycles and is effectively worth 1$ more than Goat when trashing copper. Is the fact that Goat can trash Estates and doesn’t trip over Silvers and other copies of itself really enough to say that Goat smokes Loan?
I am talking about hypothetical Goat that you can buy, obviously Heirloom-Goat is a lot better than non-Heirloom Loan.
Good point on cycling. Trashing Estates is huge though, and Loan hitting a non-copper is really annoying -- although maybe it's roughly equal in probability to drawing Goat with nothing you want to trash?
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Goat doesn't just trash estates, it trashes one (usually) before the first shuffle. That alone makes it phenomenal.
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But Goat trashing before the first shuffle is just because it’s an heirloom, so it has effectively trashed two more cards than Loan before you get to play the latter (the card you trash with Goat, and the copper it replaces). Of course then Goat is a lot better than Loan. But that’s Goat being a heirloom, not Goat being better than Loan. I would say that Heirloom Loan and Heirloom Goat would be close.
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Starting with Goat is a like starting with a slightly weaker Junk Dealer (the key difference being that Goat doesn’t draw a card). It’s good but you usually want to trash more than one card per shuffle, so you’ll want to pick up other strong trashers if available.
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If Goat was a kingdom card, you'd get at least one in the opening and get your second one by the second reshuffle, and then it is already likely to beat out Chapel in many situations. Goat would have to cost $4 before I'd have to start seriously considering the opportunity cost.
Goat casually beats out Forager in the opening, which is already one of the better early game trashers.
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Chapel yes, Masq no.
Assuming we are talking about Heirloom Goat, I second this. Masquerade is effectively trashing without tempo loss. Masquerade is very good with Loan as well.
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But Goat trashing before the first shuffle is just because it’s an heirloom, so it has effectively trashed two more cards than Loan before you get to play the latter (the card you trash with Goat, and the copper it replaces). Of course then Goat is a lot better than Loan. But that’s Goat being a heirloom, not Goat being better than Loan. I would say that Heirloom Loan and Heirloom Goat would be close.
They would not. Estate trashing is simply way better.
In the early hands, trashing a Copper out of your deck and trashing an estate result in the same economy either way. In the later hands, you’re out of Estates and you’ve bought stuff, so you don’t really care that you technically lose $1 from your current hand (which you can opt out of if you really want!), and Loan is much more likely to skip a good card or hit a Treasure you do care about.
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For the first two shuffles, Goat is a lot better than Loan because it's trashing Estates from your hand. Then it's worse than Loan because it trashes Copper from hand (as opposed to deck) and then it's better again because it trashes at all when you don't have anything in the draw pile.
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But Goat trashing before the first shuffle is just because it’s an heirloom, so it has effectively trashed two more cards than Loan before you get to play the latter (the card you trash with Goat, and the copper it replaces). Of course then Goat is a lot better than Loan. But that’s Goat being a heirloom, not Goat being better than Loan. I would say that Heirloom Loan and Heirloom Goat would be close.
They would not. Estate trashing is simply way better.
In the early hands, trashing a Copper out of your deck and trashing an estate result in the same economy either way. In the later hands, you’re out of Estates and you’ve bought stuff, so you don’t really care that you technically lose $1 from your current hand (which you can opt out of if you really want!), and Loan is much more likely to skip a good card or hit a Treasure you do care about.
I agree with the first part, but the second part is just wrong. Loan has equal chances to skip over a worse card than over a better card, and it averages out, keeping only the extra cycling, which is a positive thing until you reach the greening phase (and then you can choose not to play the Loan if it really bothers you).
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People only seem to be talking about Goat trashing Coppers/Estates (obviously because they're the thing you most often need to trash), but of course it also trashes Curses, Ruins, and other Junk too.
Loan's strength is also part of it's weakness. Loan guarantees treasure trashing, but it can only trash treasure. Goats eat anything.
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I always buy Goat whenever it is in the supply.
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I always buy Goat whenever it is in the supply.
Man, Goat sucks. I never buy it.
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I always buy Goat whenever it is in the supply.
Man, Goat sucks. I never buy it.
I never buy Goat when it's in the supply.
Each time it's been offered to me from the Black Market deck, I have purchased one of the cards offered alongside it.
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I've bought Goat exactly twice.
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I've bought Goat exactly twice.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vacuous_truth
You're playing the game incorrectly.
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I've bought Goat exactly twice.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vacuous_truth
You're playing the game incorrectly.
I'm playing a different game :P
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I've bought Goat exactly twice.
You're playing the game incorrectly.
I'm playing a different game :P
Is the winning move "The answer is 'Buying Nocturne = buying Goat, and I've bought Nocturne once for myself and once as a gift'"?
(In case it doesn't render well, the last four characters are <tee> <single quote> <double quote> <question mark>.)
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Well, it's all relative.
If you choose your starting hand, and then Monty Hall opens a door and shows you a Goat behind that door, do you want to change your starting hand to include Goat, Or stay with the same starting hand?
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Well, it's all relative.
If you choose your starting hand, and then Monty Hall opens a door and shows you a Goat behind that door, do you want to change your starting hand to include Goat, Or stay with the same starting hand?
Finally, a new wrinkle to this old problem: do I want the car or the goat?
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(https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/monty_hall.png)
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(https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/monty_hall.png)
There really is one for everything.
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I think it's just as pointless to ask whether Goat is good as it is to ask whether Borrow, Delve or any specific Landmark are good. They are rules changes more than anything.
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I think it's just as pointless to ask whether Goat is good as it is to ask whether Borrow, Delve or any specific Landmark are good. They are rules changes more than anything.
It’s at the very least a bit more relevant than Events and Landmarks, because you can choose to trash the Goat. If Goat were a horrible card, you might choose to trash it sooner, for example. The goodness of Goat also affects other decisions, such as whether or not you get other trashers, and how many of them.
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I think it's just as pointless to ask whether Goat is good as it is to ask whether Borrow, Delve or any specific Landmark are good. They are rules changes more than anything.
It’s at the very least a bit more relevant than Events and Landmarks, because you can choose to trash the Goat. If Goat were a horrible card, you might choose to trash it sooner, for example. The goodness of Goat also affects other decisions, such as whether or not you get other trashers, and how many of them.
Right. Goat is strong and impactful, no doubt. I admit that even though you don't decide to get Goat, you can decide to get rid of it, so it is more of a player decision than the others I named.
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(https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/monty_hall.png)
There really is one for everything.
Mouse over text....
"A few minutes later, the goat from behind door C drives away in the car."
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I think it's just as pointless to ask whether Goat is good as it is to ask whether Borrow, Delve or any specific Landmark are good. They are rules changes more than anything.
It’s at the very least a bit more relevant than Events and Landmarks, because you can choose to trash the Goat. If Goat were a horrible card, you might choose to trash it sooner, for example. The goodness of Goat also affects other decisions, such as whether or not you get other trashers, and how many of them.
Also, you can easily imagine Goat as a kingdom card (or even house-rule it to be one, if you're fine with a 6-card pile ;)). The same is true for Delve (which is effectively a (boring) kingdom card, Silver+on-gain buy for $2, in disguise), but not for Borrow or any landmark.
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I think it's just as pointless to ask whether Goat is good as it is to ask whether Borrow, Delve or any specific Landmark are good. They are rules changes more than anything.
It’s at the very least a bit more relevant than Events and Landmarks, because you can choose to trash the Goat. If Goat were a horrible card, you might choose to trash it sooner, for example. The goodness of Goat also affects other decisions, such as whether or not you get other trashers, and how many of them.
Also, you can easily imagine Goat as a kingdom card (or even house-rule it to be one, if you're fine with a 6-card pile ;)). The same is true for Delve (which is effectively a (boring) kingdom card, Silver+on-gain buy for $2, in disguise), but not for Borrow or any landmark.
Delve is practically strictly better than Silver and so that wouldn't work. Goat, sure. Other Heirlooms like Cursed Gold, not so much. Goat is not a kingdom card, though.
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Delve is practically strictly better than Silver and so that wouldn't work.
That's as much of a problem for a kingdom card as it is for an Event (i.e. it isn't).
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Delve is practically strictly better than Silver and so that wouldn't work.
That's as much of a problem for a kingdom card as it is for an Event (i.e. it isn't).
I'm with you in that it's not a problem technically, but it goes against Donald X' design tradition. Much like e.g. directed attacks.
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Delve is practically strictly better than Silver and so that wouldn't work.
That's as much of a problem for a kingdom card as it is for an Event (i.e. it isn't).
It's completely a perceptual problem, but that's still a problem, and I think being an Event does help perceptions there.