Dominion Strategy Forum
Archive => Archive => Dominion: Nocturne Previews => Topic started by: LastFootnote on October 27, 2017, 08:34:02 am
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Finally, the powers of the dead are yours to command. It’s about time. Today I’m doing the last bonus preview, Necromancer.
(https://i.imgur.com/NEVaQyZ.png)
Necromancer lets you play Action cards from the trash. And just to ensure that you always have some options there, the trash starts with three Action cards in it, the Zombies. And two of the Zombies can help you get other Action cards into the trash. Somehow it all works out.
Each Action card in the trash can only be used once per turn, though if there are multiple copies of a card in the trash, you’ll be able to play each copy within the same turn. When you play a card in the trash, you flip it over to indicate that. So if you play three Necromancers in a turn, one could play Zombie Spy, the next could play Zombie Apprentice to trash a Skulk, and the last could play the Skulk you just trashed. If you use Throne Room to play Necromancer twice, each play of Necromancer will have to play a different card from the trash. Necromancer can’t play Duration cards, and cards that try to move themselves (like Reserve cards from Adventures) fail to do so; they’re stuck in the trash.
As for the Zombies themselves, you’ve got some choices. There’s the Zombie Spy, which is like a regular Spy except it can only discard the top card of your own deck. The Zombie Mason trashes the top card of your deck and optionally gains you a card costing up to $1 more. Usually if it wasn’t something you wanted to trash, you can gain a copy of it back from the Supply. And finally the Zombie Apprentice, which can only trash Action cards and always draws 3 cards when you do. Why keep that Moneylender around when a zombie Moneylender is just as good?
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Well, Asper, this is interesting.
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And anyone else think that the Zombie art looks like a bad 2000s video game?
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Games with this and Lurker will be fun!
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Man I would not have bought this game if I had known it would end up adding a zombie mechanic halfway through.
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You missed an opportunity to make all three zombies throwbacks to removed First Edition cards.
Zombie Adventurer? Zombie Scout?
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You missed an opportunity to make all three zombies throwbacks to removed First Edition cards.
Zombie Adventurer? Zombie Scout?
House rule: Those always start in the trash.
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"Your necromancy can use some work" - Lurker
Thank you for making the Zombies cost 3 so that they can be gained from Graverobber and Rogue as well.
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Zombie Knights :O
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So i suppose cards like mining village and Pillage dont work when played from the trash?
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How come the Necromancer isn't optional?
It's unlikely, I know, but in a Dark Ages game you might find yourself accidentally playing it when all the Zombies have been gained from the trash and all that's left is dead Rats you'd rather not play...
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Man I would not have bought this game if I had known it would end up adding a zombie mechanic halfway through.
Nocturne is the 11th box, and the zombie mechanic is a single kingdom pile and 3 solo cards. It ain't half of anything.
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Zombie Knights :O
Sounds like a Jamie Lannister-related Season 8 Game of Thrones spoiler
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How come the Necromancer isn't optional?
It's unlikely, I know, but in a Dark Ages game you might find yourself accidentally playing it when all the Zombies have been gained from the trash and all that's left is dead Rats you'd rather not play...
You can look through the trash before playing the Necromancer
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Man I would not have bought this game if I had known it would end up adding a zombie mechanic halfway through.
Nocturne is the 11th box, and the zombie mechanic is a single kingdom pile and 3 solo cards. It ain't half of anything.
Nocturne is the 12th box and there had better be at least 12 more so yeah, half
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Great. Zombies freak me out! :o
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So i suppose cards like mining village and Pillage dont work when played from the trash?
I don't see any reason that you wouldn't be able to play mining village from the trash with necromancer. You can't trash it for +$2, but it could be a village if you really need one.
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So i suppose cards like mining village and Pillage dont work when played from the trash?
I don't see any reason that you wouldn't be able to play mining village from the trash with necromancer. You can't trash it for +$2, but it could be a village if you really need one.
And Pillage works fine. The attack and Spoils gains aren’t contingent on the trashing.
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Man I would not have bought this game if I had known it would end up adding a zombie mechanic halfway through.
Nocturne is the 11th box, and the zombie mechanic is a single kingdom pile and 3 solo cards. It ain't half of anything.
Nocturne is the 12th box and there had better be at least 12 more so yeah, half
Shoulda said "11th Expansion". But yeah, 12th box (or more, if you count things like 2nd Editons and upgrade packs haha)
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One of the coolest cards in the expansion.
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Well, Asper, this is interesting.
I have absolutely no idea what an appropriate reaction to this is or what I feel now.
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You missed an opportunity to make all three zombies throwbacks to removed First Edition cards.
Zombie Adventurer? Zombie Scout?
I almost jokingly posted in the speculation thread that Necromancer would come with a "deleted" first edition pile and be able to gain the cards from it. Looks like my guess would have been closer than I thought.
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Man I would not have bought this game if I had known it would end up adding a zombie mechanic halfway through.
Nocturne is the 11th box, and the zombie mechanic is a single kingdom pile and 3 solo cards. It ain't half of anything.
Not quite a whoosh, because the joke was subtle. But it was a very good subtle joke.
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Man I would not have bought this game if I had known it would end up adding a zombie mechanic halfway through.
You better burn these cards when you get them, just to be safe. Apparently trashing them isn't good enough.
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Bonus Preview $5: Necromancer
<Insert joke about $5 Necromancer variant.>
Edit: The quoted text was the original thread title. It's fixed now.
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Bonus Preview $5: Necromancer
<Insert joke about $5 Necromancer variant.>
That sounds hilarious.
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These make me so happy for some reason. Can't wait to dig one of them up with a Graverobber.
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Necromancer + Death Cart is good, as you'd expect I guess.
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Bonus Preview $5: Necromancer
<Insert joke about $5 Necromancer variant.>
Dang it!
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Okay, so a lot of people are complaining about the art and theme of some of these cards. I think they are fine. The art and card names are sufficiently different from MtG to avoid the trap I've always seen the possibility of Dominion falling into. Also, while this might seem very different from any other set, that is pretty much what we say every time there is a new expansion. I like that this is a sequel to Dark Ages/Alchemy, and I think it aces going for the magic/fantasy theme while remaining distinctly Dominion.
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Okay, so a lot of people are complaining about the art and theme of some of these cards. I think they are fine. The art and card names are sufficiently different from MtG to avoid the trap I've always seen the possibility of Dominion falling into. Also, while this might seem very different from any other set, that is pretty much what we say every time there is a new expansion. I like that this is a sequel to Dark Ages/Alchemy, and I think it aces going for the magic/fantasy theme while remaining distinctly Dominion.
Well you'll have to admit that slightly bloody corpses - even such with a day job - aren't exactly a staple of Dominion.
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Potion makes a reappearance!
As card art, but still.
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Potion makes a reappearance!
As card art, but still.
"And it was at the moment that her halfway decomposed legs started glowing green that Celine began to have second thoughts on her decision of signing up as a pharma tester to pay for her student loans."
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Well, Feast is finally good now.
Anyway, this card looks like a Band of Misfits that requires setup, but has no boundaries in cost. It probably stays dormant most of the time, as both Necromancers get help simultaneously, and you usually don't wanna trash good cards.
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Man I would not have bought this game if I had known it would end up adding a zombie mechanic halfway through.
I would like to submit a formal request for joke explanation, please.
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The art is really bad, yeah.
Card looks fun.
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Man I would not have bought this game if I had known it would end up adding a zombie mechanic halfway through.
I would like to submit a formal request for joke explanation, please.
A lot of videogames have a zombie mode added for no apparent reason.
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The art is really bad, yeah.
Card looks fun.
But the Zombie Spy! It's on one of those roof overhang thingies, just like in the original Spy.
I think it's weird that the Zombie Apprentice is wearing a skirt though. I guess it's a gender signifier, but skirts are not proper lab wear. Proper lab wear (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Apprentice) is a flammable cloak, even when everything is on fire.
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You missed an opportunity to make all three zombies throwbacks to removed First Edition cards.
Zombie Adventurer? Zombie Scout?
House rule: Those always start in the trash.
(http://i.imgur.com/QfWaALi.jpg)
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I find the art for Zombie Mason hilarious. He is just carrying materials and all the humans around are totally chill and ignoring the walking corpse amongst them
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Zombies vs humans, a summary:
Zombie Mason is strictly stronger than Stonemason as an Action, but you can't get an on-gain benefit.
Zombie Spy is strictly worse than Spy, but Spy was a pain to play in multiplayer.
Zombie Apprentice breaks even for cards costing $3 or $1P
Not bad for being dead.
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I find the art for Zombie Mason hilarious. He is just carrying materials and all the humans around are totally chill and ignoring the walking corpse amongst them
"Yeah, he killed our Scout, but the next day there was a Baker and that works for me and I don't need to know..."
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Man I would not have bought this game if I had known it would end up adding a zombie mechanic halfway through.
I would like to submit a formal request for joke explanation, please.
If it's a reference to what I think it is, explaining the joke might be a spoiler. If it's not a reference to what I think it is, it's a less good joke.
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Does "leaving it there" apply just to when the act of playing the card would normally put it into play, or does it prevent other card movement as a result of performing instructions on the card? For example, if you play a Wish from the Trash, does Necromancer leave it in the trash and turn it face-down, but then the Wish moves itself to its pile anyway?
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You can look through the trash before playing the Necromancer
Normally, yes. Not when it's turned up by a Golem or Herald. Nor if you've Summoned or Princed your Necromancer and don't like the options when you come to play it.
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cards that try to move themselves (like Reserve cards from Adventures) fail to do so; they’re stuck in the trash
Hmm. Happy times if anyone trashes a Wine Merchant!
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Zombie Knights :O
Works fine.
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You can look through the trash before playing the Necromancer
Normally, yes. Not when it's turned up by a Golem or Herald. Nor if you've Summoned or Princed your Necromancer and don't like the options when you come to play it.
Uh, I imagine you can reach over, pick up the cards in the trash, and look at them any time you like. It's just a few inches away from you.
How does Necromancer interact with cards such as Highway, which must be "in play" to be most useful?
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I find the art for Zombie Mason hilarious. He is just carrying materials and all the humans around are totally chill and ignoring the walking corpse amongst them
They're professionals, and so is he. Besides, it's touching that they aren't anti-undead like so many others.
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How does Necromancer interact with cards such as Highway, which must be "in play" to be most useful?
Badly.
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You can look through the trash before playing the Necromancer
Normally, yes. Not when it's turned up by a Golem or Herald. Nor if you've Summoned or Princed your Necromancer and don't like the options when you come to play it.
Uh, I imagine you can reach over, pick up the cards in the trash, and look at them any time you like. It's just a few inches away from you.
Yes! Agreed! You can, indeed, know what's in the trash, and therefore know you don't want to play Necromancer.
My point is that there are circumstances in which you can end up unable to avoid playing Necromancer. Not common circumstances, but circumstances nonetheless. Hence my surprise that its effect isn't optional.
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The contents of the Trash being public knowledge is a key component of the rules that's worth highlighting, especially since the contents of your discard pile, which are also face-up, are not. Players are not allowed to go through their discard pile, nor even count the number of cards in it, unless a card or event specifically instructs them to.
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So what happens when you Necromancer something like Mining Village or Feast? Will the blue dog rule apply, so that the trashed Mining Village is considered as another Mining Village than the Necromancered Mining Village, so that it is trashed face-up again?
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So what happens when you Necromancer something like Mining Village or Feast? Will the blue dog rule apply, so that the trashed Mining Village is considered as another Mining Village than the Necromancered Mining Village, so that it is trashed face-up again?
I believe it's akin to Throne Room. The card can't move to the trash because it's already there.
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So what happens when you Necromancer something like Mining Village or Feast? Will the blue dog rule apply, so that the trashed Mining Village is considered as another Mining Village than the Necromancered Mining Village, so that it is trashed face-up again?
I believe it's akin to Throne Room. The card can't move to the trash because it's already there.
Ok, thank you. I wonder if this makes an endless turn possible, when Graverobber/Lurker is in the Kingdom.
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Can a necromanced Graverobber gain itself from the trash?
I mean he fails to move himself, the rules state, but he can gain a card from the trash which just happens to be himself, right?
I mean when does the „leaving it there” resolves?
Question 2:
Do you set aside a necromanced Mining Village while being posessed?
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I think I know what irks me with the art. Several things are really muddy, but other things look highly realistic. It appears as if the creator had just copied pictures together and painted over them, which also explains the off perspective, eg. for
Celine's Apprentice's foot and Mason's wall. It looks a lot like the images in those dreadful object searching apps.
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Does "leaving it there" apply just to when the act of playing the card would normally put it into play, or does it prevent other card movement as a result of performing instructions on the card? For example, if you play a Wish from the Trash, does Necromancer leave it in the trash and turn it face-down, but then the Wish moves itself to its pile anyway?
Necromancer on Wish would just give you +1 Action, and Wish would stay in the trash.
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I think I know what irks me with the art. Several things are really muddy, but other things look highly realistic. It appears as if the creator had just copied pictures together and painted over them, which also explains the off perspective, eg. for Celine's Apprentice's foot and Mason's wall. It looks a lot like the images in those dreadful object searching apps.
I agree with this. The level of detail in the artwork is inconsistent.
I think another factor is the incoherent color scheme. They're mostly dull gray and brown, but there are touches of more saturated colors. But the saturated colors are all over the place, and they draw the eye towards parts of the artwork that don't seem like they should be the focus. I do think the art for Necromancer itself is the best.
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Does "leaving it there" apply just to when the act of playing the card would normally put it into play, or does it prevent other card movement as a result of performing instructions on the card? For example, if you play a Wish from the Trash, does Necromancer leave it in the trash and turn it face-down, but then the Wish moves itself to its pile anyway?
Necromancer on Wish would just give you +1 Action, and Wish would stay in the trash.
Yeah, I see I missed that in the original post. The "leaving it there" is a blanket effect that prevents Necromancer from putting it into play when it plays it, and also prevents the card from moving itself. But how deep does that go? As matste asked, does it just prevent the card from moving itself through references to "this," or does it prevent the card from moving any card that happens to be "this"? In the latter case, does it apply recursively to things played by the Necromanced card? Like, if you Necromance a Throne Room and use it to play a Lurker, can that move the Throne Room? Or maybe it just prevents the card's movement by anything during the time when it's resolving, in which case even a hypothetical gain-from-the-trash reaction would be prevented from moving it.
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I'm not quite sure how good this card is but I have really enjoyed it in the few games so far! There's just so much going on with multiple decisions and the interactions with the stuff you trash, but it doesn't have quite the randomness of Boons/Hexes.
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How does Necromancer interact with cards such as Highway, which must be "in play" to be most useful?
Badly.
Also, Necromancer on Pixie is not as good as you might initially think.
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Man I would not have bought this game if I had known it would end up adding a zombie mechanic halfway through.
I would like to submit a formal request for joke explanation, please.
If it's a reference to what I think it is, explaining the joke might be a spoiler. If it's not a reference to what I think it is, it's a less good joke.
Oh, wow I didn't notice that possibility before.
Anyway, the Wolfenstein series had zombies show up midway before it was cool, or maybe while it was still cool.
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The art is clearly a pasteup of several different layers, with no effort made to keep consistent lightning or even add shadows from one object to the other. (Just like Charm, from the same artist.)
Some examples:
Necromancer's feet (or any part of him, really) cast no shadow, despite the fact that he's holding a freaking light source twenty cm from his foot. This gives the disconnected feel to the image, and gives him a measure of "floatiness".
The zombie in Necromancer is also pasted on the floor image, and you need to look twice to realize that he's actually supposed to be bursting out of the floor. He casts no shadow on it, nor does the border of the hole cast a shadow on the zombie.
Necromancer's pose is completely disconnected to the scene. You're freaking summoning a zombie, while looking at something off screen and having a completely neutral pose. This smells heavily of recycled concept art.
Compare with the good art of Summon (from the same artist, even), for a scenic pose.
The freaking column doesn't cast a shadow either...
Apprentice seems completely off scale, and has completely different lightning than everything else in the scene.
The sky is dark in Spy, but everything else is incongrously lit by a sourceless light.
Mason should really cast a shadow. There isn't a single cast shadow in any of the four images.
This art is deeply sub-par. I wish RGG put stricter quality requirements on Dominion's artists. I'm actually tempted of dropping Jay an email.
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This art is deeply sub-par. I wish RGG put stricter quality requirements on Dominion's artists. I'm actually tempted of dropping Jay an email.
At this point, it wouldn't be Dominion if the quality of the art wasn't all over the spectrum. It's part of the charm.
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The art is clearly a pasteup of several different layers, with no effort made to keep consistent lightning or even add shadows from one object to the other. (Just like Charm, from the same artist.)
Some examples:
Necromancer's feet (or any part of him, really) cast no shadow, despite the fact that he's holding a freaking light source twenty cm from his foot. This gives the disconnected feel to the image, and gives him a measure of "floatiness".
The zombie in Necromancer is also pasted on the floor image, and you need to look twice to realize that he's actually supposed to be bursting out of the floor. He casts no shadow on it, nor does the border of the hole cast a shadow on the zombie.
Necromancer's pose is completely disconnected to the scene. You're freaking summoning a zombie, while looking at something off screen and having a completely neutral pose. This smells heavily of recycled concept art.
Compare with the good art of Summon (from the same artist, even), for a scenic pose.
The freaking column doesn't cast a shadow either...
Apprentice seems completely off scale, and has completely different lightning than everything else in the scene.
The sky is dark in Spy, but everything else is incongrously lit by a sourceless light.
Mason should really cast a shadow. There isn't a single cast shadow in any of the four images.
This art is deeply sub-par. I wish RGG put stricter quality requirements on Dominion's artists. I'm actually tempted of dropping Jay an email.
Completely agree. I'm getting flashbacks about the awfulness of Charm, also by the same artist. Apparently Shadows don't exist.
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I actually made lists (before Nocturne art started) of artists that should be allowed to do Dominion art, those that should be allowed to do art without people/faces, and those who should never ever do art again. At the time, Marco Morte was on the no-faces list, but this maybe bumps him down to "no more art". Again, this is all just my opinion and has/had not much impact on what actually gets done.
My current list of artists that should be allowed to do faces:
• Claus Stephan
• Elisa Cella
• Franz Vohwinkel
• Garret deChellis
• Grant Hansen
• Jeff Himmelman
• Lorraine Schleter
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Yes! Agreed! You can, indeed, know what's in the trash, and therefore know you don't want to play Necromancer.
My point is that there are circumstances in which you can end up unable to avoid playing Necromancer. Not common circumstances, but circumstances nonetheless. Hence my surprise that its effect isn't optional.
Well sure, but cut out the middle man: you can already Golem or Herald a Rats directly and it might suck for you. There's already plenty of cards that you might hit with Golem or whatever and be forced to mandatorily play, why not give every card a "may" clause, or just give Golem/Herald/Vassal that clause?
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Necromancer's pose is completely disconnected to the scene. You're freaking summoning a zombie, while looking at something off screen and having a completely neutral pose.
I mean, he probably does this all day long and just doesn't find the actual summoning that interesting anymore.
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I actually made lists (before Nocturne art started) of artists that should be allowed to do Dominion art, those that should be allowed to do art without people/faces, and those who should never ever do art again. At the time, Marco Morte was on the no-faces list, but this maybe bumps him down to "no more art". Again, this is all just my opinion and has/had not much impact on what actually gets done.
My current list of artists that should be allowed to do faces:
• Claus Stephan
• Elisa Cella
• Franz Vohwinkel
• Garret deChellis
• Grant Hansen
• Jeff Himmelman
• Lorraine Schleter
The problem with Marco Morte seems to be that it's very uneven, some of his cards are great (Magpie, Crown, Transmogrify...).
I actually liked Matthias Catrein (aside from Scout). Sure, his faces are quirky, but they match the rest of his artstyle. And Witch is fantastic. EDIT: in fact, he did a lot of art for the original Dominion. His art is the most representative of Dominion, in my opinion.
Checking the wiki for artists that have done a few cards with faces: Why not Alayna Lemmer, Brian Brinlee, Dennis Lohausen, Jessi J., Joshua Stewart, Julien Delval, Martin Hoffmann, RC Torres?
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I actually made lists (before Nocturne art started) of artists that should be allowed to do Dominion art, those that should be allowed to do art without people/faces, and those who should never ever do art again. At the time, Marco Morte was on the no-faces list, but this maybe bumps him down to "no more art". Again, this is all just my opinion and has/had not much impact on what actually gets done.
My current list of artists that should be allowed to do faces:
• Claus Stephan
• Elisa Cella
• Franz Vohwinkel
• Garret deChellis
• Grant Hansen
• Jeff Himmelman
• Lorraine Schleter
The problem with Marco Morte seems to be that it's very uneven, some of his cards are great (Magpie, Crown, Transmogrify...).
I actually liked Matthias Catrein (aside from Scout). Sure, his faces are quirky, but they match the rest of his artstyle. And Witch is fantastic.
Checking the wiki for artists that have done a few cards with faces: Why not Alayna Lemmer, Brian Brinlee, Dennis Lohausen, Jessi J., Joshua Stewart, Julien Delval, Martin Hoffmann, RC Torres?
Jessi J. Is great. Fairgrounds and Young Witch are two of the best. I have been disappointed none of the revealed cards have been done by her. Her style would fit this theme so well. Hopefully she has at least one of the remaining unrevealed cards.
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Checking the wiki for artists that have done a few cards with faces: Why not Alayna Lemmer, Brian Brinlee, Dennis Lohausen, Jessi J., Joshua Stewart, Julien Delval, Martin Hoffmann, RC Torres?
Alayna should be on the list.
Have you seen Brian Brinlee's faces? Eeugh.
Dennis Lohausen is acceptable, but not great.
A lot of Jessi J.'s art is mostly way too dark and monochromatic. I hate how Encampment and Settlers look identical at a glance. They're in the same set, for crying out loud.
Joshua Stewart should now be on the list after Nocturne. Exorcist and Conclave (which you can see on his site) have pushed him into face territory.
Julian Delval's faces are unimpressive, and why not have him do more beautiful landscape art like the Boons and Castles?
Martin Hoffman's faces are also pretty mediocre, with Lurker being a particular disappointment.
RC Torres is fine. Maybe when I made the list, I was trying to keep it short.
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Jessi J. Is great. Fairgrounds and Young Witch are two of the best. I have been disappointed none of the revealed cards have been done by her. Her style would fit this theme so well. Hopefully she has at least one of the remaining unrevealed cards.
She did Misery, Haunting, and Poverty.
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Can a necromanced Graverobber gain itself from the trash?
I mean he fails to move himself, the rules state, but he can gain a card from the trash which just happens to be himself, right?
I mean when does the „leaving it there” resolves?
Question 2:
Do you set aside a necromanced Mining Village while being posessed?
Necromancer stops the played card from being moved to "in play," and that's all it stops. However! A card that for example trashes itself from play is looking for itself in play, and won't move itself if it's not there.
So, you can Necromancer a Feast and gain a $5 and Feast stays in the trash; you can Necromancer an Encampment and fail to return it to its pile. But since e.g. Mining Village checks to see if you actually trashed it, you can try to trash it but you will fail and the check for it will see that you failed and you won't get the +$2.
Necromancer can play a Graverobber in the trash and use it to gain itself, yes.
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Have you seen Brian Brinlee's faces? Eeugh.
What can I say, I like leprechaun.
A lot of Jessi J.'s art is mostly way too dark and monochromatic. I hate how Encampment and Settlers look identical at a glance. They're in the same set, for crying out loud.
Hm, I can understand that.
Julian Delval's faces are unimpressive, and why not have him do more beautiful landscape art like the Boons and Castles?
Because Thief (though I guess he's technically hiding his face). Give him all the arts.
Martin Hoffman's faces are also pretty mediocre, with Lurker being a particular disappointment.
I find his style expressive. Mercenary, Cutpurse, etc, get the job done. I mean, Claus Stephan is not miles ahead of him either, and you like those too.
Necromancer can play a Graverobber in the trash and use it to gain itself, yes.
That's awesome.
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Jessi J. Is great. Fairgrounds and Young Witch are two of the best. I have been disappointed none of the revealed cards have been done by her. Her style would fit this theme so well. Hopefully she has at least one of the remaining unrevealed cards.
She did Misery, Haunting, and Poverty.
Excellent! I havent seen the art for those ones yet. I do see now that they are posted on the Wiki, but the resolution is bad. I suppose I could find them on shuffle too.
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Alayna should be on the list.
She's done several pieces of artwork that really bug me.
Apart from the obvious anachronisms that have been widely noted, she seems to struggle more generally with giving her work a mediaeval feel. A lot of the time, it comes out looking like a person - frankly, an American person - with modern stature, complexion, hairstyle and demeanour who turned up at a renaissance fair in subtly inauthentic replica clothing and mysteriously unencumbering armour.
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Alayna should be on the list.
She's done several pieces of artwork that really bug me.
Apart from the obvious anachronisms that have been widely noted, she seems to struggle more generally with giving her work a mediaeval feel. A lot of the time, it comes out looking like a person - frankly, an American person - with modern stature, complexion, hairstyle and demeanour who turned up at a renaissance fair in subtly inauthentic replica clothing and mysteriously unencumbering armour.
Ah yes, that was why she wasn’t on my list. The anachronistic Groundskeeper and Royal Blacksmith art.
She was a good choice for Temporum, though, where anachronism is the order of the day!
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Alayna should be on the list.
She's done several pieces of artwork that really bug me.
Apart from the obvious anachronisms that have been widely noted, she seems to struggle more generally with giving her work a mediaeval feel. A lot of the time, it comes out looking like a person - frankly, an American person - with modern stature, complexion, hairstyle and demeanour who turned up at a renaissance fair in subtly inauthentic replica clothing and mysteriously unencumbering armour.
True. Personally I can't look at Groundskeeper without thinking "Desperate Housewives".
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If I Necromance a Band of Misfits or an Overlord, what exactly happens? The card never leaves play, since it is never in play to begin with. I can see two plausible scenarios:
a) It will fail to imitate anything.
b) It will remain that card indefinitely, that is, unless someone manages to actually put it in play. That seems uh problematic, but would be the most literal interpretation.
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I believe the TR-BoM as Feast rules that it would still imitate whatever you want, only it would still be a BoM in the trash while doing so.
EDIT: On that note, the wiki states both this and the opposite, but I do think this was the final decision on this interaction (much ado was done back in the day about Donald reverting a decision that appeared on a rulebook).
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I believe the TR-BoM as Feast rules that it would still imitate whatever you want, only it would still be a BoM in the trash while doing so.
I’m pretty sure this is correct, but not 100% sure.
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I wish to Necromance an Overlord as Hireling. Does that work?
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I wish to Necromance an Overlord as Hireling. Does that work?
Not unless you reduce the cost of Hireling. But if you do, then yes I think so.
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I wish to Necromance an Overlord as Hireling. Does that work?
Not without cost reduction...
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This art is deeply sub-par. I wish RGG put stricter quality requirements on Dominion's artists. I'm actually tempted of dropping Jay an email.
At this point, it wouldn't be Dominion if the quality of the art wasn't all over the spectrum. It's part of the charm.
I kind of like all of the art. Even the art that most people think is 'bad', to me just seems like a different style. Some I like more, but I don't really 'dislike' any.
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If I play a Necromancer on another Necromancer in the trash, which then plays a Conspirator that is also in the trash, do I get +1 card and +1 action?
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If I Necromance a Band of Misfits or an Overlord, what exactly happens? The card never leaves play, since it is never in play to begin with. I can see two plausible scenarios:
a) It will fail to imitate anything.
b) It will remain that card indefinitely, that is, unless someone manages to actually put it in play. That seems uh problematic, but would be the most literal interpretation.
You pick a thing to copy (and do that thing) but the card immediately reverts to being Band of Misfits / Overlord.
So: Play Necromancer as Band of Misfits as Smithy. Get +3 Cards.
Play Necromancer as Overlord as Graverobber. You can't take the Overlord; it's no longer Graverobber.
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If I play a Necromancer on another Necromancer in the trash, which then plays a Conspirator that is also in the trash, do I get +1 card and +1 action?
Yes.
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This art is deeply sub-par. I wish RGG put stricter quality requirements on Dominion's artists. I'm actually tempted of dropping Jay an email.
At this point, it wouldn't be Dominion if the quality of the art wasn't all over the spectrum. It's part of the charm.
I kind of like all of the art. Even the art that most people think is 'bad', to me just seems like a different style. Some I like more, but I don't really 'dislike' any.
I agree, but I think it's because I'm not as much a visual person. I would never have noticed any of the things Accatitippi pointed out about the art (except maybe the Necromancer not looking at the Zombie, but that doesn't bother me either).
Some things, however, I do notice, like Scout being deformed, and the art on Pooka is really strange. The only time I've ever heard of a pooka having any rabbit characteristics is the movie Harvey, which isn't exactly a traditional pooka fairy tale. I do think it's cool that there's a pooka card, because it isn't one of the more well known creatures from folklore.
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I actually made lists (before Nocturne art started) of artists that should be allowed to do Dominion art, those that should be allowed to do art without people/faces, and those who should never ever do art again. At the time, Marco Morte was on the no-faces list, but this maybe bumps him down to "no more art". Again, this is all just my opinion and has/had not much impact on what actually gets done.
My current list of artists that should be allowed to do faces:
• Claus Stephan
• Elisa Cella
• Franz Vohwinkel
• Garret deChellis
• Grant Hansen
• Jeff Himmelman
• Lorraine Schleter
Maura Kalusky should be on this list. So long as he isn't allowed to do hands.
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I actually made lists (before Nocturne art started) of artists that should be allowed to do Dominion art, those that should be allowed to do art without people/faces, and those who should never ever do art again. At the time, Marco Morte was on the no-faces list, but this maybe bumps him down to "no more art". Again, this is all just my opinion and has/had not much impact on what actually gets done.
My current list of artists that should be allowed to do faces:
• Claus Stephan
• Elisa Cella
• Franz Vohwinkel
• Garret deChellis
• Grant Hansen
• Jeff Himmelman
• Lorraine Schleter
Maura Kalusky should be on this list. So long as he isn't allowed to do hands.
Martin Hoffmann should actually be on this list. I like Vampire.
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So, Lurker/Necromancer/Catacombs is a thing.
Lurker trashes Catacombs, gains you a necromancer, and lets you play that Necromancer as the Catacombs. My game also had Page in the kingdom, so it was pretty engine friendly.
Necromancer is really flexible, if there is good trashing, and decent action cards, you can just stock up on Necromancers. Engines stall when you get your actions out of order, with Necromancers that just does not happen.
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Played a game with Necromancer/Fortress. Good combo. I was able to trash my estates early on with Zombie Mason, and then in the late game I was able to consistently draw my deck with Zombie Apprentice by trashing and regaining my fortresses.
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Necromancer can be brutal with Pillage.
Necromancer is very versatile, but its raw power is really held back by each action in the trash only being playable once per copy per turn. It's no Ironmonger.
The Zombie Apprentice makes action cards Lab for a turn, having their identity assumed by a Necromancer later. That's something to consider given how Imps and Wisps fly all over the place in Nocturne.
The Zombie Mason can mill Provinces with the right setup. That's enough to make Necromancer a good consideration on some boards. The Mason can also be used as a really bad Lookout/Loan in the early game.
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The problem with Marco Morte seems to be that it's very uneven, some of his cards are great (Magpie, Crown, Transmogrify...).
Yeah, that's why I'm not asking "ban Marco Morte until hell freezes over or Dominion: More Alchemy hits the stores (whatever comes first)".
I'm not sure about how the art-making process works, is there a step where the pubblisher can reject a work for being too bad? I mean, we know he can do better than this.
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Well at least the Zombies spend most of their time in the trash or face down, maybe the art was done poorly on purpose so you don't feel too bad turning them over. Also Marco Morte is a great name for a necromancer, so there's that.
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Can a necromanced Graverobber gain itself from the trash?
I mean he fails to move himself, the rules state, but he can gain a card from the trash which just happens to be himself, right?
I mean when does the „leaving it there” resolves?
I am interested in an official answer to this question
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Can a necromanced Graverobber gain itself from the trash?
I mean he fails to move himself, the rules state, but he can gain a card from the trash which just happens to be himself, right?
I mean when does the „leaving it there” resolves?
I am interested in an official answer to this question
Donald X answered it in this thread. Yes, the necromanced Graverobber can gain itself.
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Can a necromanced Graverobber gain itself from the trash?
I mean he fails to move himself, the rules state, but he can gain a card from the trash which just happens to be himself, right?
I mean when does the „leaving it there” resolves?
I am interested in an official answer to this question
Donald X answered it in this thread. Yes, the necromanced Graverobber can gain itself.
Okay, so let me parse this.
- "leaving it there" just refers to not moving it from the trash to your play area.
-Any card effect that tries to move itself normally expects itself to be in play (Encampment, Mining Village, etc) and thus loses track, and fails to move it. This is separate from the "leaving it there" clause.
-Any card effect that's actually looking for something in the trash (Graverobber, etc) will find itself, and be able to move itself.
I'm assuming you turn it face up again when it leaves the trash. ;)
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Can a necromanced Graverobber gain itself from the trash?
I mean he fails to move himself, the rules state, but he can gain a card from the trash which just happens to be himself, right?
I mean when does the „leaving it there” resolves?
I am interested in an official answer to this question
Donald X answered it in this thread. Yes, the necromanced Graverobber can gain itself.
Okay, so let me parse this.
- "leaving it there" just refers to not moving it from the trash to your play area.
-Any card effect that tries to move itself normally expects itself to be in play (Encampment, Mining Village, etc) and thus loses track, and fails to move it. This is separate from the "leaving it there" clause.
-Any card effect that's actually looking for something in the trash (Graverobber, etc) will find itself, and be able to move itself.
I'm assuming you turn it face up again when it leaves the trash. ;)
Not if you're gaining it with Graverobber!
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Necromancer + Procession = Crazy Fun
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I'm assuming you turn it face up again when it leaves the trash. ;)
I know it was a half-jokey question, but I had to think about this a little bit. When you gain a card, it really doesn't have a facing. If you gain it to your deck, it's put face-down, if to your discard pile - face-up, if to your hand - neither I guess...
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I'm not sure about how the art-making process works, is there a step where the pubblisher can reject a work for being too bad? I mean, we know he can do better than this.
It's varied over the years.
At first they just drew stuff from the name. These days they get a terse description, trying not to limit what they do much, but covering some issues: making it clear what the card name means; getting us women on cards; avoiding certain cases I have singled out, like there are two people and you don't know which one is the one that card is referring to (yes it still comes up), or the card is a treasure but you see some stuff happening. For Nocturne of course all the notes specified day/night.
At first it just all happened and I saw the results. These days I get to see a lot of sketches though not all of them. I can say, "that isn't what I meant." Sometimes you can miss stuff from the sketch, and be sad later. Some artists are generous and will offer up more than one sketch to let you pick from. There is a chance to ask for changes in a final piece, but it's harder, especially if the change you want is "something completely different please."
For most sets Jay assigned art to whatever artists. For Nocturne I got to do initial assignments of art to artists (then if they couldn't do it, Jay reassigned the art, to whoever was extra available). I cut a few artists I didn't like, and tried to pair up artists with pieces I thought they'd do well on. I brought up a few artists who hadn't worked for us in a while, and a couple of them were available. Jay brought in a few new people to try them out.
Overall it did not work out perfectly, but uh, not for lack of trying.
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I'm assuming you turn it face up again when it leaves the trash. ;)
Being face down only applies while it's in the trash.
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I wonder if this makes an endless turn possible, when Graverobber/Lurker is in the Kingdom.
Won't you eventually run out of Necromancers to play?
Ferry Graverobber, then trash a Graverobber and a Lurker. Now Band of Misfits can do everything that Necromancer can do, and vice versa. Do you think BoM enables endless turns? If so, how?
Note that Necromancer 2nd-order trashes removes from the game exiles turns the played cards face down, making them no longer Necromancable.
I came up with an Ambassador/Villa/Bonfire loop; the full combo is 9 cards, several of which cost less than BoM. The 10th card in the kingdom could be BoM, and it could imitate some of my combo components, so I guess in that sense BoM does enable endless turns. However, as a general rule the number of cards not in play tends to go down during your turn, to a lower limit of 0, and BoM doesn't violate that general rule. (Bonfire and Mandarin do.) Necromancer also doesn't violate this general rule, so I don't see why it should help you go infinite any better than, say, BoM (or Village or Smithy).
There's a second general rule that cards in the trash stay in the trash (and thus can't be played). Trashed-face-down is just a second trash pile which satisfies this rule, so I would guess Necromancer could at most double a finite effect, not make it go infinite. Note that Rogue, Graverobber and Lurker not only violate this rule, they put the de-trashed cards back in your deck (uh, discard) which Necromancer doesn't do. This makes me skeptical about the other way Necromancer maybe has loop potential.
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I Throne a Necromancer and play Zombie Mason and Zombie Spy, turning them face down. Then I play a Lurker.
Can I choose to gain the Zombie Spy? May I look at the face down trashed cards—which sounds like a wrong interpretation of "face down"—or do I have to pick a face down card, hoping I remembered correctly which is which? Are you required to shuffle the face-down trashed cards whenever you turn an additional trashed card face down? (That sounds like a terrible rule.)
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I Throne a Necromancer and play Zombie Mason and Zombie Spy, turning them face down. Then I play a Lurker.
Can I choose to gain the Zombie Spy? May I look at the face down trashed cards—which sounds like a wrong interpretation of "face down"—or do I have to pick a face down card, hoping I remembered correctly which is which? Are you required to shuffle the face-down trashed cards whenever you turn an additional trashed card face down? (That sounds like a terrible rule.)
You can look at the face down cards. They are just face down to track which ones you've Necromancer'd this turn.
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I Throne a Necromancer and play Zombie Mason and Zombie Spy, turning them face down. Then I play a Lurker.
Can I choose to gain the Zombie Spy? May I look at the face down trashed cards—which sounds like a wrong interpretation of "face down"—or do I have to pick a face down card, hoping I remembered correctly which is which? Are you required to shuffle the face-down trashed cards whenever you turn an additional trashed card face down? (That sounds like a terrible rule.)
You can look at the face down cards. They are just face down to track which ones you've Necromancer'd this turn.
What if you gain a face-down card during your turn, and later trash it during that same turn? Can a Necromancer play that card from the trash during that turn?
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What if you gain a face-down card during your turn, and later trash it during that same turn? Can a Necromancer play that card from the trash during that turn?
Yes, for at least two reasons.
Simple reason: When you trash a card, it's put in the trash face-up.
Less simple reason: Similar questions have been asked before related to cards moving. Once a card moves out of the trash, there's potentially no way to know whether it's the same card when it's trashed later. (This is related to the reason for the rule that you can resolve the same Reaction from your hand several times to the same thing: There's no way for the other players, sometimes even for you, to know whether it's the same card.)
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Right. Perfectly reasonable.
I would also have accepted: "When you try to Necro the same card a second time during your turn, the stress causes its bones to break and fall apart, so you tear up the card and can't use it anymore."
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Dominion: Legacy?
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Overall it did not work out perfectly, but uh, not for lack of trying.
So far I've enjoyed the art a lot; I think Nocturne is on pace to be the prettiest expansion. The little callbacks to earlier cards are especially neat.
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I'm not sure about how the art-making process works, is there a step where the pubblisher can reject a work for being too bad? I mean, we know he can do better than this.
It's varied over the years.
At first they just drew stuff from the name. These days they get a terse description, trying not to limit what they do much, but covering some issues: making it clear what the card name means; getting us women on cards; avoiding certain cases I have singled out, like there are two people and you don't know which one is the one that card is referring to (yes it still comes up), or the card is a treasure but you see some stuff happening. For Nocturne of course all the notes specified day/night.
At first it just all happened and I saw the results. These days I get to see a lot of sketches though not all of them. I can say, "that isn't what I meant." Sometimes you can miss stuff from the sketch, and be sad later. Some artists are generous and will offer up more than one sketch to let you pick from. There is a chance to ask for changes in a final piece, but it's harder, especially if the change you want is "something completely different please."
For most sets Jay assigned art to whatever artists. For Nocturne I got to do initial assignments of art to artists (then if they couldn't do it, Jay reassigned the art, to whoever was extra available). I cut a few artists I didn't like, and tried to pair up artists with pieces I thought they'd do well on. I brought up a few artists who hadn't worked for us in a while, and a couple of them were available. Jay brought in a few new people to try them out.
Overall it did not work out perfectly, but uh, not for lack of trying.
Maybe we could copy this to the Interview thread? Is there a better way of doing that than quote-posting it?
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Overall it did not work out perfectly, but uh, not for lack of trying.
So far I've enjoyed the art a lot; I think Nocturne is on pace to be the prettiest expansion. The little callbacks to earlier cards are especially neat.
I second this sentiment. Overall, the art has been very good. There are always hits and misses with each expansion, but it seems like over time there have been more hits and less misses.
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This is pretty cool Farmers Market, you can get the points without having to trash your Market.
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This is pretty cool Farmers Market, you can get the points without having to trash your Market.
lt would also work with pillage right? It says "trash this" first, but it doesn't say "if you do" or anything like that.
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This is pretty cool Farmers Market, you can get the points without having to trash your Market.
lt would also work with pillage right? It says "trash this" first, but it doesn't say "if you do" or anything like that.
Yes. I even got the "pleasure" of having such a game turn up online.
Embargo works too.
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Are the Zombies Anachronistic? Seems like most of the card names are pretty good at being accurate. However, Zombies as we know them are a more modern term. Shouldn't the cards be called "Revenant Spy", "Revenant Mason", and "Revenant Apprentice"? The term revenant would fit better in the Dominion world.
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Are the Zombies Anachronistic? Seems like most of the card names are pretty good at being accurate. However, Zombies as we know them are a more modern term. Shouldn't the cards be called "Revenant Spy", "Revenant Mason", and "Revenant Apprentice"? The term revenant would fit better in the Dominion world.
Looks like “revenant” isn’t very much older than “zombie”. “Undead” might have been more appropriate and timeless. Oh well.
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Are the Zombies Anachronistic?
The time-traveling Groundskeeper brought the idea of Zombies back to the Time of Dominion.