Dominion Strategy Forum
Archive => Archive => Dominion: Nocturne Previews => Topic started by: Donald X. on October 27, 2017, 03:00:09 am
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And now, something extra! Yes it's the last Nocturne preview.
The 5th theme of this set is extra cards. And you've been seeing them all week, there were too many to just save them for today. But here are some more of these things. And more cards for the previous themes; they're all interconnected.
(http://i.imgur.com/NW5yELw.png)
Exorcist at last explains what Spirit is all about. It turns cards into Spirits. There are three Spirits and you've seen them all: Will-o'-Wisp, Imp, Ghost. So Exorcist can turn an Estate into a Wisp, a Silver into an Imp, and so on. And Wisp can draw Imp, and Imp can play Wisp, and Ghost can hit Wisps and Imps; if you get a bunch of Spirits they are a card-drawing package.
(http://i.imgur.com/mBO96HT.png)
Pixie is another Fate card and has another Heirloom. It gives you a Boon twice, but just once, and it hangs around until the Boon is good enough. One of the Boons is The Flame's Gift, which trashes, but it's not super-unfair if Pixie hits that in a game with no other trashers, because there's always another trasher: Goat. It eats anything. And you sell its milk or something.
(http://i.imgur.com/NZ3620m.png)
Of course there had to be a Vampire, and of course it turns into a Bat. That's what they do. Well vampires do tons of things, but that's one of them, and you can only capture so much in a Dominion card. Vampire gains you cards and Hexes people, while Bat is a trasher, and has to feed to turn back.
The online version will have all the preview cards through the weekend (and then won't have them again until the physical version comes out). The physical version is now expected to ship from RGG on November 13 (so stores will have it a few days later).
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Those Night cards look stunning. The best yet.
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The expansion with most new mechanics so far.
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Trash Rats with Bats!
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Trash Rats with Bats!
FEED Bats with Rats!
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Love that the themes are all coming together. This set is cwazy. Also, just curious, any reason these Exchange cards don’t have the big arrow?
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Love that the themes are all coming together. This set is cwazy. Also, just curious, any reason these Exchange cards don’t have the big arrow?
Big arrow is not for Exchanging cards, it’s for Traveller lines
Edit: spelling
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Love that the themes are all coming together. This set is cwazy. Also, just curious, any reason these Exchange cards don’t have the big arrow?
Big areow is not for Exchanging cards, it’s for Traveller lines
Huh, I always assumed it was to remind you to Exchange. Thanks!
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So wait, when do you play with a given Spirit pile? Obviously if you play with the card that generates a specific Spirit you include that Spirit. If you play with Exorcist do you include all the Spirits?
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So wait, when do you play with a given Spirit pile? Obviously if you play with the card that generates a specific Spirit you include that Spirit. If you play with Exorcist do you include all the Spirits?
I think you’re essentially always playing with all non-Supply piles. But you’ll only get them out (or display online) for cards that reference them.
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So wait, when do you play with a given Spirit pile? Obviously if you play with the card that generates a specific Spirit you include that Spirit. If you play with Exorcist do you include all the Spirits?
Yes, you include them all, but they're non-supply piles.
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I'm a player from China, not familiar with western mythology. I try to find the connection between Pixie and Goat in Google and Wikipedia, but nothing was found. Could anybody tell me why they are a couple of Kingdom-Heirloom cards here?
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I'm a player from China, not familiar with western mythology. I try to find the connection between Pixie and Goat in Google and Wikipedia, but nothing was found. Could anybody tell me why they are a couple of Kingdom-Heirloom cards here?
Not sure but I guess the connection is moorland / mountainous / highland regions.
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I like all these cards. Simple, straightforward.
Pixie is elegant as a $2 that exits your deck instead of permanently taking up space like Pearl Diver. And gives you control over going for the boon or not, which is a welcome way to ameliorate their randomness and give the player more agency/choice.
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This expansion seems like it's the best one yet at integrating theme and flavour.
It could be a consequence of Donald's magic TG background.
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So wait, when do you play with a given Spirit pile? Obviously if you play with the card that generates a specific Spirit you include that Spirit. If you play with Exorcist do you include all the Spirits?
Yes, you include them all, but they're non-supply piles.
I see, thanks! Another question: How many Bats are there? 10?
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So, the previous Night cards all seemed to have a mechanical reason for being Night cards rather than, say non-terminal Action cards. Devil's Workshop counted gains; Raider and Crypt cared about cards in play; Ghost Town had the gain-to-hand thing, so you could play it at Night after buying it; Werewolf used it to select between two modes of operation; Ghost could work on a thing you just bought.
So how about today's Night cards?
I guess Exorcist's and Vampire's gaining during Night keeps you from being able to use the cards the turn you gain them (unless there's some way to draw a Ghost you gained), so it might be a power-level thing. (The same would apply to Devil's Workshop.)
And I guess Vampire and Bat sort of gain each other, so being Night cards prevents them from mutually recursing during a turn. (Although if they were actions, they could maybe have just exchanged on discard like Travellers do...)
Also, Exorcist and Bats trash cards in your hand. So you can use what would otherwise be a turn-ending terminal draw action to get stuff into your hand and then still be able to play the Night cards to trash it.
Anything else?
EDIT:
There's also the tiny interaction with Locusts caring about type. And maybe there are things that reference Night cards specifically, like "gain a Night card costing up to $N" or something.
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I'm a player from China, not familiar with western mythology. I try to find the connection between Pixie and Goat in Google and Wikipedia, but nothing was found. Could anybody tell me why they are a couple of Kingdom-Heirloom cards here?
There's not really a connection. The mythology in this set is mostly Celtic. The people who believed in faeries were peasants; they'd have goats. The things the faeries did involved everyday life.
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I see, thanks! Another question: How many Bats are there? 10?
Yes, as you can already see online.
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So, the previous Night cards all seemed to have a mechanical reason for being Night cards rather than, say non-terminal Action cards.
Exorcist for a long time could trash cards from play. When it stopped doing that, it was clear that it no longer had to be a Night card. And the feeling was that Night cards should have a reason for being Night cards, shouldn't just randomly be Night cards. It felt better leaving Exorcist as a Night card though, I don't know what to tell you.
Vampire and Bat had to be Night cards because Vampires only go out at Night. My hands were tied there. Yes it's also nice to prevent too quickly switching forms.
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I'm a player from China, not familiar with western mythology. I try to find the connection between Pixie and Goat in Google and Wikipedia, but nothing was found. Could anybody tell me why they are a couple of Kingdom-Heirloom cards here?
There's not really a connection. The mythology in this set is mostly Celtic. The people who believed in faeries were peasants; they'd have goats. The things the faeries did involved everyday life.
Thank you! I have to say this expansion has so many difficult things about western culture for me to understand.
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D'oh..I missed Exorcist's "Gain a cheaper" when I first read it.
So in reality it's super slow, the only redeeming factor is that it comes out at night so you don't need an action to play it, and can open it alongside a terminal, like say Swindler or Gladiator. But basically any other $3/$4 trasher (or Miser) is much better as an opener.
Later on a few Imps and a Ghost or two are nice to get, however they come late and the opportunity cost of needing to trash an unplayed silver or $5 is steep.
I don't like the card as it turns out. It's one of the weakest $4 in Dominion, though at least it's a trasher so one can't complain too much. But it's outclassed by every other $3/$4 trasher, including Develop and Loan
Late edit: Okay I'm going to disagree with myself a bit. Turning estates into Wisps is reasonably helpful, and it can be drawn "dead" along with a $5 and still come out at night to net you a Ghost upgrade without so much opportunity cost. Not amazing, but there's potential.
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Pixie is another great $2, a recurring theme of this expansion. It never hurts, but gives you good control over the boons pile. And in the end it clears itself away. Goat is fun too.
I do not really understand the benefits of Vampire. $5 looks like a steep price for an unthroneable random attack which is weaker than all other $5 attacks. The fact that it trashes itself for another $5 does not make it better - if you wanted the other $5, why did you not purchase it in the first place? Bats seem also rather weak to me. Best case scenario is that you can use your bats turn 5 to trash 2 cards without any additional advantage. Yes, you might have more choice if you had a lot of draw, but with +action that is true for all other trashers. In my opinion, this compares unfavorably even to weaker trashers like Rat Catcher, Lookout or even Trade Route.
So in the end, you have a so-so attack, that exchanges itself for a useful card and a weak trasher. Feels like a Jack of all Trades, master of none situation. And I have not even started, comparing it to Skulk.
So, what am I missing here? After all this playtesting, there should be a reason why it costs 5.
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So, now that we know that there are other ways to get a Ghost, why are there 6? It made sense at first because the only way to get them was by trashing a Haunted Mirror, and there are 6 of them at most. But now there is an other way of getting them. Are they to powerful? Then why not take one per player?
And on that note: why are there 12 Will o' Wisps and 13 Imps? Why not all 10? Or 12?
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I do not really understand the benefits of Vampire. $5 looks like a steep price for an unthroneable random attack which is weaker than all other $5 attacks. The fact that it trashes itself for another $5 does not make it better - if you wanted the other $5, why did you not purchase it in the first place? Bats seem also rather weak to me. Best case scenario is that you can use your bats turn 5 to trash 2 cards without any additional advantage. Yes, you might have more choice if you had a lot of draw, but with +action that is true for all other trashers. In my opinion, this compares unfavorably even to weaker trashers like Rat Catcher, Lookout or even Trade Route.
So in the end, you have a so-so attack, that exchanges itself for a useful card and a weak trasher. Feels like a Jack of all Trades, master of none situation. And I have not even started, comparing it to Skulk.
So, what am I missing here? After all this playtesting, there should be a reason why it costs 5.
The fact that the Bats turn back into a Vampire, so next shuffle you get another $5 gain (and hexing)?
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But it's outclassed by every other $3/$4 trasher, including Develop and Loan
Maybe, but there are cards on the board that only Exorcist can gain, and in some kingdoms it will be the only access to engine components. So it might be a slower trasher but with a big payoff.
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So, the previous Night cards all seemed to have a mechanical reason for being Night cards rather than, say non-terminal Action cards.
Exorcist for a long time could trash cards from play. When it stopped doing that, it was clear that it no longer had to be a Night card. And the feeling was that Night cards should have a reason for being Night cards, shouldn't just randomly be Night cards. It felt better leaving Exorcist as a Night card though, I don't know what to tell you.
Vampire and Bat had to be Night cards because Vampires only go out at Night. My hands were tied there. Yes it's also nice to prevent too quickly switching forms.
Was the version that could trash from play also a $4? Exorcist seems to compare unfavourably to Raze
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So, the previous Night cards all seemed to have a mechanical reason for being Night cards rather than, say non-terminal Action cards.
Exorcist for a long time could trash cards from play. When it stopped doing that, it was clear that it no longer had to be a Night card. And the feeling was that Night cards should have a reason for being Night cards, shouldn't just randomly be Night cards. It felt better leaving Exorcist as a Night card though, I don't know what to tell you.
Vampire and Bat had to be Night cards because Vampires only go out at Night. My hands were tied there. Yes it's also nice to prevent too quickly switching forms.
Was the version that could trash from play also a $4? Exorcist seems to compare unfavourably to Raze
It does at trashing, but maybe you explicitly want those Spirits. They are arguably all better than their price points.
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Thank you, Donald, for previewing these cards! It's been a great week getting to read these all in the middle of the night.
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So, the previous Night cards all seemed to have a mechanical reason for being Night cards rather than, say non-terminal Action cards.
Exorcist for a long time could trash cards from play. When it stopped doing that, it was clear that it no longer had to be a Night card. And the feeling was that Night cards should have a reason for being Night cards, shouldn't just randomly be Night cards. It felt better leaving Exorcist as a Night card though, I don't know what to tell you.
Vampire and Bat had to be Night cards because Vampires only go out at Night. My hands were tied there. Yes it's also nice to prevent too quickly switching forms.
Was the version that could trash from play also a $4? Exorcist seems to compare unfavourably to Raze
It does at trashing, but maybe you explicitly want those Spirits. They are arguably all better than their price points.
All the Spirits seem to make sense at their cost + $2, which is appropriate as they need to compare favourably to the card you're trashing to get them. I guess the issue is that Will-o-wisp doesn't seem much more useful than Pearl Diver or Vagrant, especially in a game with trashing. I like playing with Imps in Devil's Workshop games, where you end up with lots of $4 cantrips and non terminals to Imp with, but so far in Exorcist games it's never seemed like a good idea to get one. As good as Ghost is, trashing a $5 is a big opportunity cost, especially when you would want to keep that $5 around as payload for the Ghost; although an advantage of Exorcist being a night card is that Ghost skips right over it.
Anyway I'll make an early prediction and say the Exorcist will be in the same category as Develop and Counting House; occasionally great but ignorable on most boards.
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"Each other player receives the next Hex"
Does that mean that in a 4-player game, my 3 opponents all get hit by the same Hex, or do they each receive different hexes in turn?
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"Each other player receives the next Hex"
Does that mean that in a 4-player game, my 3 opponents all get hit by the same Hex, or do they each receive different hexes in turn?
Grammar debate: The sequel
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"Each other player receives the next Hex"
Does that mean that in a 4-player game, my 3 opponents all get hit by the same Hex, or do they each receive different hexes in turn?
All three receive the same next one.
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Was the version that could trash from play also a $4? Exorcist seems to compare unfavourably to Raze
I'm not here to debate your statement. I can answer your question; when it could trash from play it cost $4. That doesn't tell you anything except how poorly I guessed as to what it should cost though. It was stronger than Upgrade (one of the easier cards to try to compare it to).
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Thank you, Donald, for previewing these cards! It's been a great week getting to read these all in the middle of the night.
You're welcome!
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Was the version that could trash from play also a $4? Exorcist seems to compare unfavourably to Raze
I'm not here to debate your statement. I can answer your question; when it could trash from play it cost $4. That doesn't tell you anything except how poorly I guessed as to what it should cost though. It was stronger than Upgrade (one of the easier cards to try to compare it to).
Exorcist is a Night card at least. It seems comparable to Salvager in the early game, but doesn't compare so favourably late game when you just want Provinces. Estates for Wisps are nice since Wisp will draw any starting cards and Imps as well as themselves. Ghost seems like a lot of work to get.
Pixie seems cool enough, but Goat is crazy to have at the start of the game! It can trash anything, including those stupid curses from Cursed Gold, and the Cursed Gold itself. Even cooler, it can trash Haunted Mirror.
Vampire, I dunno. It competes with power 5-cost cards, but wants to be gained early. I guess you want it if you are going to gain a bunch of Bazaars and Werewolves or something. And the non-terminal Hex attack is not nothing.Bat as a trasher works well enough to support what Vampire is trying to do.
And yay, Bats are a thing after all!
Edit: oh, some Heirlooms will give you Imps when trashed by Exorcist. "Why are the things passed down to me possessed"?
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Quick hot take: Vampire / Bats is gonna be like 80% as good as Mercenary, maybe better in some situations because both halves are nonterminal. Don’t think of them as one shots, think more like Journey token every-other-play cards. Hexes are powerful attacks, and gaining $5s and trashing 2 are also powerful. It’s almost everything you need.
D'oh..I missed Exorcist's "Gain a cheaper" when I first read it.
So in reality it's super slow, the only redeeming factor is that it comes out at night so you don't need an action to play it, and can open it alongside a terminal, like say Swindler or Gladiator. But basically any other $3/$4 trasher (or Miser) is much better as an opener.
Later on a few Imps and a Ghost or two are nice to get, however they come late and the opportunity cost of needing to trash an unplayed silver or $5 is steep.
I don't like the card as it turns out. It's one of the weakest $4 in Dominion, though at least it's a trasher so one can't complain too much. But it's outclassed by every other $3/$4 trasher, including Develop and Loan
Late edit: Okay I'm going to disagree with myself a bit. Turning estates into Wisps is reasonably helpful, and it can be drawn "dead" along with a $5 and still come out at night to net you a Ghost upgrade without so much opportunity cost. Not amazing, but there's potential.
You’re really understating how good it is to trash a Silver into Imp in the mid game. Imp is probably one of the most useful, versatile draw cards in the game. I would happily trash early Silvers I got for starting economy to get my hands on more Imps.
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Imp is probably one of the most useful, versatile draw cards in the game.
Um, it's strictly worse than lab.
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D'oh..I missed Exorcist's "Gain a cheaper" when I first read it.
So in reality it's super slow, the only redeeming factor is that it comes out at night so you don't need an action to play it, and can open it alongside a terminal, like say Swindler or Gladiator. But basically any other $3/$4 trasher (or Miser) is much better as an opener.
Later on a few Imps and a Ghost or two are nice to get, however they come late and the opportunity cost of needing to trash an unplayed silver or $5 is steep.
I don't like the card as it turns out. It's one of the weakest $4 in Dominion, though at least it's a trasher so one can't complain too much. But it's outclassed by every other $3/$4 trasher, including Develop and Loan
Late edit: Okay I'm going to disagree with myself a bit. Turning estates into Wisps is reasonably helpful, and it can be drawn "dead" along with a $5 and still come out at night to net you a Ghost upgrade without so much opportunity cost. Not amazing, but there's potential.
You’re really understating how good it is to trash a Silver into Imp in the mid game. Imp is probably one of the most useful, versatile draw cards in the game. I would happily trash early Silvers I got for starting economy to get my hands on more Imps.
Nocturne has a bunch of Silver and Gold gainers. I will happily trash Silver for Imps and Golds into Ghosts or Imps. There is always Will-o-Wisp around if you don't want to gain more Imps for whatever reason, or if the Imps run out (think 3+ players).
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Imp is probably one of the most useful, versatile draw cards in the game.
Um, it's strictly worse than lab.
The opportunity cost is generally a lot lower than getting a Lab. Granted, that’s mostly with Devil’s Workshop out, but even with Exorcist there are tons of boards where you’re happy to get semi nonterminal draw. Drawing cards is so good, especially usually non terminally.
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I just realized that Exorcist isn't a terminal Action.
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Imp is probably one of the most useful, versatile draw cards in the game.
Um, it's strictly worse than lab.
The opportunity cost is generally a lot lower than getting a Lab. Granted, that’s mostly with Devil’s Workshop out, but even with Exorcist there are tons of boards where you’re happy to get semi nonterminal draw. Drawing cards is so good, especially usually non terminally.
I agree I'm just saying that calling it "(EDIT) one of the most versatile card drawers in the game" is very misleading if not downright inaccurate. Imp's greatest strength is that it's so easy to get, not that its ability is a god-like card drawer, like City Quarter or something.
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Imp is probably one of the most useful, versatile draw cards in the game.
Um, it's strictly worse than lab.
The opportunity cost is generally a lot lower than getting a Lab. Granted, that’s mostly with Devil’s Workshop out, but even with Exorcist there are tons of boards where you’re happy to get semi nonterminal draw. Drawing cards is so good, especially usually non terminally.
How many Imps you can support depends on what other non-terminals are on the board. Generally, turning Estates into Imps will be a very good deal. If you board sucks for Imps, there are at least Will-o-Wisps to gain. Trashing with Exorcist for Wisps honestly doesn't sound like enough on its own, but it helps get around the problem of not wanting more Imps.
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Imp is probably one of the most useful, versatile draw cards in the game.
Um, it's strictly worse than lab.
The opportunity cost is generally a lot lower than getting a Lab. Granted, that’s mostly with Devil’s Workshop out, but even with Exorcist there are tons of boards where you’re happy to get semi nonterminal draw. Drawing cards is so good, especially usually non terminally.
How many Imps you can support depends on what other non-terminals are on the board. Generally, turning Estates into Imps will be a very good deal. If you board sucks for Imps, there are at least Will-o-Wisps to gain. Trashing with Exorcist for Wisps honestly doesn't sound like enough on its own, but it helps get around the problem of not wanting more Imps.
Unfortunately, you can't turn estates into Imps.
But seriously, why isn't everyone freaking out about Goat?
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Imp is probably one of the most useful, versatile draw cards in the game.
Um, it's strictly worse than lab.
The opportunity cost is generally a lot lower than getting a Lab. Granted, that’s mostly with Devil’s Workshop out, but even with Exorcist there are tons of boards where you’re happy to get semi nonterminal draw. Drawing cards is so good, especially usually non terminally.
How many Imps you can support depends on what other non-terminals are on the board. Generally, turning Estates into Imps will be a very good deal. If you board sucks for Imps, there are at least Will-o-Wisps to gain. Trashing with Exorcist for Wisps honestly doesn't sound like enough on its own, but it helps get around the problem of not wanting more Imps.
You can't turn Estates into Imps unless you have a Quarry in play because they both cost $2.
I do think Exorcist is being underrated a bit though, it's a nonterminal trasher so it trashes about as fast as Forager (apart from being unable to open 2 Exorcist) and being a Night is better than a nonterminal action a lot of the time because it can't be drawn dead the main problem is the lack of economy. The Wisps tend to suck up coppers which also somewhat mitigates the single card trashing.
Vampire seems quite strong- gaining, trashing and an attack in one! Not the most efficient at any one job but it gives you access to 3 somewhat uncommon abilities so I see it getting bought quite a lot, nonterminal too!
Pixie seems like one of the better $2 cantrips, getting the +1 card boon is crazy! Double lab! Goat is crazy too, is that the fool in the art too? Is Pixie from the lucky coin?
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I, for one, am freaking out about Goat. The gift of a non-terminal trash-one before your first shuffle is enormous. It's practically like starting with a Forager in your deck; slightly better if you use it to trash Estates to start, since it always gives you a coin. For the first two shuffles, it outclasses the legendary Steward because it trashes two cards by your second shuffle AND gives you $2; (most early Steward plays are trash-2, clean up; early Goat plays are much more likely to buy a $3 or $4.)
I predict some ragequits if anyone ever manages to pull off lucky Bandit.
That would really get my Goat.
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Asking the important question: are you going to use one tab or three when you put Spirits in your storage case?
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I'm very misleading if not downright inaccurate.
You see what happens if you quote what people say selectively?
What you actually said was:
I'm just saying that calling it "the most versatile card draw in the game" is very misleading if not downright inaccurate.
However, what Chris is me actually said was:
Imp is probably one of the most useful, versatile draw cards in the game.
Citing a more useful, versatile draw card doesn't negate that point. Imp can be one of the most useful, versatile draw cards without being better than Laboratory.
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I assume with Exorcist that you ignore the * in the spirit cost? I know in previous expansions the * in the cost indicated it could not be exchanged through a remodel style upgrade from a non-* card.
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However, what Chris is me actually said was:
Imp is probably one of the most useful, versatile draw cards in the game.
Citing a more useful, versatile draw card doesn't negate that point. Imp can be one of the most useful, versatile draw cards without being better than Laboratory.
Hmmm. You make a valid point about "one of the" being important, I apologize for leaving that out. However I still think that Imp as an effect only is not a top-tier drawer, taking into account all the lab variants there are. Imp's power comes from the ability to gain very many quickly, not from a top tier versatile card draw effect.
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OMG VAMPIRE LOOKS SO FUN!
i guarantee you i will overbuy the hell out of vampires and have an army of them flopping back and forth!
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This is my first preview season since I started playing dominion, when do we get to see the rest of the cards?
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OMG VAMPIRE LOOKS SO FUN!
i guarantee you i will overbuy the hell out of vampires and have an army of them flopping back and forth!
...until you run out of cards to trash and have an army of bats doing squat.
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I assume with Exorcist that you ignore the * in the spirit cost? I know in previous expansions the * in the cost indicated it could not be exchanged through a remodel style upgrade from a non-* card.
The reason you couldn't use a Remodel style card to gain them wasn't because of the *, it was because they aren't in the supply. You can still remodel a Gold into a Peddler.
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This is my first preview season since I started playing dominion, when do we get to see the rest of the cards?
"The Dominion Fan is a normally docile creature, only leaving its habitat for tournaments with others of its kind, or to take its occasional pilgramidge to a convention. However, every once in a while the Dominion Fan enters an event called "preview season" in which it feeds daily for a week on new Dominion cards. At this point, Dominion Fans go through mood swings, becoming ecstatic then irritable, and often drop other activities and lose much sleep waiting and discussing. After this period they relapse into more calm states for a fasting period while they wait for the rulebook to be uploaded by Jay, and combat the fear of their natural predator: Shipping Delays."
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"At this point, Dominion Fans go through mood swings, becoming ecstatic then irritable, and often drop other activities and lose much sleep waiting and discussing."
Um...maybe I ought to get back to work ;-)
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I see, thanks! Another question: How many Bats are there? 10?
Yes, as you can already see online.
Thanks!
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...until you run out of cards to trash and have an army of bats doing squat.
No problem, just hire a Mercenary to get rid of them.
...oh, crap.
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People think Exorcist sounds weak? I haven't played with these cards, and maybe some of you have tried them online, but to me it doesn't sound weak. It has trashing, draw, and splitting. Last time we had a pile like that, it was Sauna/Avanto.
Vampire looks very strong too. Hexing and gaining a $5-cost seems as strong as Altar or Artisan, and trashing tends to be good too. I guess over two plays it's a bit like a non-terminal Altar.
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Asking the important question: are you going to use one tab or three when you put Spirits in your storage case?
That is my dilemma too. I really like Exorcist thematically and as a card, but I was also looking forward to dropping the spirit cards in with their respective kingdom cards. Now the spirits will have to be put somewhere else, which is a very, very minor inconvenience, but it does seems I spend about half the time with dominion trying to improve the storage and accessibility.
To actually answer the question though: three spots.
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For Vampire and Bats, what if you go to exchange a Vampire/Bats and the Bats/Vampire pile is empty? Do you just lose the card? Or do you get to keep it?
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For Vampire and Bats, what if you go to exchange a Vampire/Bats and the Bats/Vampire pile is empty? Do you just lose the card? Or do you get to keep it?
You fail to exchange it, so you keep it.
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I think Exorcist is close in power to a 2-card trasher in the opening. It (usually) kills an Estate and gives a Will-o-Wisp, which (usually) draws you an extra Copper, so it is almost as if you are two cards thinner.
That's a bit of an exaggeration, but then you can also exchange your early Silver(s) for Imp(s) at some point. Overall, I think Exorcist should be quite solid.
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So you can swap between Vamp, and bat several times on the same turn correct? where does the exchanged card go?
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So you can swap between Vamp, and bat several times on the same turn correct? where does the exchanged card go?
It goes to your discard pile, like all cards you gain. So unless you have some way of drawing cards in the Night phase, you're only swapping once per turn.
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So you can swap between Vamp, and bat several times on the same turn correct? where does the exchanged card go?
I don't understand your question.
All cards that you get from an exchange go into your discard pile, always.
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unless you have some way of drawing cards in the Night phase
I do! Setup: Bats in the discard pile, Vampire, Cultist, and Bat in hand. Play a Vampire, gain a Blessed Village, getting Sea's Gift, drawing a previous Bat, and then exchanging the 1st Vamp for a Bat. Play the Bat you drew, trashing Cultist, drawing Bats, getting Vampire, playing Vampire, gaining Cultist, getting Bats, playing Bats, trashing Cultist, drawing Cultist, Blessed Village, and Vampire, getting Vampire, play Vampire, gaining Blessed Village, receiving Wind's Gift, drawing Vampire and Blessed Village, discarding Blessed Village x2, getting Bats...
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So you can swap between Vamp, and bat several times on the same turn correct? where does the exchanged card go?
I don't understand your question.
All cards that you get from an exchange go into your discard pile, always.
The second question was asking where the exchanged card goes. It is returned to its pile, as explained in the rules for Travellers.
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It's kinda sad that whatever distribution difficulties there were meant this didn't ship on Halloween. It really deserved a Halloween release.
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So you can swap between Vamp, and bat several times on the same turn correct? where does the exchanged card go?
It goes to your discard pile, like all cards you gain. So unless you have some way of drawing cards in the Night phase, you're only swapping once per turn.
You don't gain the cards you exchange into. Assuming it works as "exchange" does for Travellers.
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So Donald brought back the exchange mechanic, but didn't use the Traveller type. I wonder why. The characteristic of a Traveller card is that it can be exchanged into another card.
The only difference between all known Travellers and Vampire/Bat is that the former are all exchanged when they're discarded from play. But that is stated right on the card, it isn't inherent in the Traveller type (not as explained in the rules in any case). In fact, the Traveller type has no defined function. It's the term "exchange" that has a specific meaning. All Travellers have an arrow though, to remind you that they can be exchanged - which would imply that other exchangeable cards should also have that arrow - and be Travellers.
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But Vampire doesn't "travel" - it just swaps back and forth between two things. And Vampire doesn't need to remind you to exchange because it is mandatory and immediate when you play the card. For Travellers, there are often effects that care if you have other Travellers in play, and most produce some some resource, so they can't exchange immediately.
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So Donald brought back the exchange mechanic, but didn't use the Traveller type. I wonder why. The characteristic of a Traveller card is that it can be exchanged into another card.
The only difference between all known Travellers and Vampire/Bat is that the former are all exchanged when they're discarded from play. But that is stated right on the card, it isn't inherent in the Traveller type (not as explained in the rules in any case). In fact, the Traveller type has no defined function. It's the term "exchange" that has a specific meaning. All Travellers have an arrow though, to remind you that they can be exchanged - which would imply that other exchangeable cards should also have that arrow - and be Travellers.
Travelers (anyone else's spell check dislike the double 'l'?) are uni-directional "upgrades". I think the arrow isn't about the exchange so much as the upgrade.
Vampire and Bat are bi-directional exchangers. I suppose you could have an arrow going one way on Bat and the other way on Vampire, but I don't think that adds any clarity.
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I suppose you could have an arrow going one way on Bat and the other way on Vampire, but I don't think that adds any clarity.
"I'm With Stupid."
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"Each other player receives the next Hex"
Does that mean that in a 4-player game, my 3 opponents all get hit by the same Hex, or do they each receive different hexes in turn?
Grammar debate: The sequel
We should tackle this one as soon as the other one is resolved.
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Imp is probably one of the most useful, versatile draw cards in the game.
Um, it's strictly worse than lab.
The opportunity cost is generally a lot lower than getting a Lab. Granted, that’s mostly with Devil’s Workshop out, but even with Exorcist there are tons of boards where you’re happy to get semi nonterminal draw. Drawing cards is so good, especially usually non terminally.
How many Imps you can support depends on what other non-terminals are on the board. Generally, turning Estates into Imps will be a very good deal. If you board sucks for Imps, there are at least Will-o-Wisps to gain. Trashing with Exorcist for Wisps honestly doesn't sound like enough on its own, but it helps get around the problem of not wanting more Imps.
Unfortunately, you can't turn estates into Imps.
But seriously, why isn't everyone freaking out about Goat?
I meant to say Silver. I had Silver in my head I tell you.
I played with Exorcist a bit. It's kinda convenient.
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Shouldn't an Exorcist be getting rid of Spirits from your deck? Or maybe Exorcist should be Medium (or something that summons spirits)? :P
I suppose Exorcist is removing Spirits from their piles...
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Shouldn't an Exorcist be getting rid of Spirits from your deck? Or maybe Exorcist should be Medium (or something that summons spirits)? :P
I suppose Exorcist is removing Spirits from their piles...
He is removing a Ghost from that possessed Mountebank. Mountebank dies, Ghost continues wandering around
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Shouldn't an Exorcist be getting rid of Spirits from your deck? Or maybe Exorcist should be Medium (or something that summons spirits)? :P
I suppose Exorcist is removing Spirits from their piles...
He is removing a Ghost from that possessed Mountebank. Mountebank dies, Ghost continues wandering around
Maybe Exorcist should cancel Possession. ;)
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But Vampire doesn't "travel" - it just swaps back and forth between two things. And Vampire doesn't need to remind you to exchange because it is mandatory and immediate when you play the card. For Travellers, there are often effects that care if you have other Travellers in play, and most produce some some resource, so they can't exchange immediately.
Yeah, I see that it's a flavor thing (no "traveling"), but that hasn't been a defining factor of these things in Dominion before. You're right that the arrow is more needed as a reminder on the Traveller cards. But I don't think "not needed as a reminder" is a good enough reason for inconsistency.
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But Vampire doesn't "travel" - it just swaps back and forth between two things. And Vampire doesn't need to remind you to exchange because it is mandatory and immediate when you play the card. For Travellers, there are often effects that care if you have other Travellers in play, and most produce some some resource, so they can't exchange immediately.
Yeah, I see that it's a flavor thing (no "traveling"), but that hasn't been a defining factor of these things in Dominion before. You're right that the arrow is more needed as a reminder on the Traveller cards. But I don't think "not needed as a reminder" is a good enough reason for inconsistency.
I think it probably is. The whole point of the reminder is that you don't exchange Travellers right when you play them. You do exchange Vampire and Bat immediately, so no reminder is necessary.
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Yeah, I see that it's a flavor thing (no "traveling"), but that hasn't been a defining factor of these things in Dominion before. You're right that the arrow is more needed as a reminder on the Traveller cards. But I don't think "not needed as a reminder" is a good enough reason for inconsistency.
I think it probably is. The whole point of the reminder is that you don't exchange Travellers right when you play them. You do exchange Vampire and Bat immediately, so no reminder is necessary.
As I stated before, the characteristic of a Traveller card was that it can be exchanged into another card. But now that characteristic is shared by non-Traveller cards too. So what is a Traveller now? I know, it's a card that needs to remind you that it can be exchanged!
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As I stated before, the characteristic of a Traveller card was that it can be exchanged into another card. But now that characteristic is shared by non-Traveller cards too. So what is a Traveller now? I know, it's a card that needs to remind you that it can be exchanged!
Cards that could be exchanged for other cards were in Dominion as of Dark Ages. Travellers are cards that upgrade over multiple turns, and have the option of upgrading at the end of a turn they were played (other exchangers just have clauses on when they can/must exchange)
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Yeah, I see that it's a flavor thing (no "traveling"), but that hasn't been a defining factor of these things in Dominion before. You're right that the arrow is more needed as a reminder on the Traveller cards. But I don't think "not needed as a reminder" is a good enough reason for inconsistency.
I think it probably is. The whole point of the reminder is that you don't exchange Travellers right when you play them. You do exchange Vampire and Bat immediately, so no reminder is necessary.
As I stated before, the characteristic of a Traveller card was that it can be exchanged into another card. But now that characteristic is shared by non-Traveller cards too. So what is a Traveller now? I know, it's a card that needs to remind you that it can be exchanged!
I think that, more specifically, Travellers were the chains of cards that were in Adventures. There could theoretically be more later, and if so they'll probably be more similar to Peasant and Page than Vampire is. Is my guess.
Really you're looking at this backwards. It's not, here's the concept of Traveller, let's define it and hew to it slavishly when making these Traveller lines. It's, hey here's a cool idea of a series of cards that transform in a line. Let's give them a type and this arrow to help remind you to do and also so that you can refer to them easily as a group. (Travellers could have had their own color, did you know? Mine were briefly cyan.) And then why give Vampire that type? No reminder is necessary and it's not even close to the same concept. I don't even think we considered using the Traveller type on Vampire, and I don't regret it.
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I think that, more specifically, Travellers were the chains of cards that were in Adventures. There could theoretically be more later, and if so they'll probably be more similar to Peasant and Page than Vampire is. Is my guess.
Really you're looking at this backwards. It's not, here's the concept of Traveller, let's define it and hew to it slavishly when making these Traveller lines. It's, hey here's a cool idea of a series of cards that transform in a line. Let's give them a type and this arrow to help remind you to do and also so that you can refer to them easily as a group. (Travellers could have had their own color, did you know? Mine were briefly cyan.) And then why give Vampire that type? No reminder is necessary and it's not even close to the same concept. I don't even think we considered using the Traveller type on Vampire, and I don't regret it.
Yes, we did not for a moment consider making Vampire a Traveller. We did mess around with the order of abilities to try to make sure people remembered to do everything.
If there had been several things that toggled form like Vampire, probably they would have gotten a new type to group them together.
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As I stated before, the characteristic of a Traveller card was that it can be exchanged into another card. But now that characteristic is shared by non-Traveller cards too. So what is a Traveller now? I know, it's a card that needs to remind you that it can be exchanged!
Cards that could be exchanged for other cards were in Dominion as of Dark Ages. Travellers are cards that upgrade over multiple turns, and have the option of upgrading at the end of a turn they were played (other exchangers just have clauses on when they can/must exchange)
The Dark Ages cards didn't use the "Exchange" keyword, allowing Scheme to save your Hermit from being trashed despite gaining a Madman.
The Travellers exchange as part of an"discard this from play" clause. The Traveller type is sort of a reminder that you can exchange the traveller when it leaves play. Vampire doesn't need this because the exchange is part of the on-play effect.
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As good as Ghost is, trashing a $5 is a big opportunity cost, especially when you would want to keep that $5 around as payload for the Ghost; although an advantage of Exorcist being a night card is that Ghost skips right over it.
Anyway I'll make an early prediction and say the Exorcist will be in the same category as Develop and Counting House; occasionally great but ignorable on most boards.
Trashing a $5 isn’t a big opportunity cost when you have a Necromancer and can still play it from the trash.
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I'm a player from China, not familiar with western mythology. I try to find the connection between Pixie and Goat in Google and Wikipedia, but nothing was found. Could anybody tell me why they are a couple of Kingdom-Heirloom cards here?
There's not really a connection. The mythology in this set is mostly Celtic. The people who believed in faeries were peasants; they'd have goats. The things the faeries did involved everyday life.
Thank you! I have to say this expansion has so many difficult things about western culture for me to understand.
Thanks for raising this question; I didn't see any connection either. I like knowing the answer, and I think it's a solid one.
I'm a westerner of the kind who's more familiar with Newton and Montesquieu than Shakespeare and the Bible, i.e. more science and political history than mythologies and the narrative arts, so I too wondered whether there was some connection I was unaware of.
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After many Nocturne games over the weekend, I think Pixie is my favorite of the Fate cards. Fishing for the effect you want and then doubling it is nice for the low cost.
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After many Nocturne games over the weekend, I think Pixie is my favorite of the Fate cards. Fishing for the effect you want and then doubling it is nice for the low cost.
Yes, Pixie is a cool Fate card, but existing in the context of other Fate cards is important. Some Boons are very often skipped over with Pixie, so having cards like Blessed Village and Idol that bring all Boons into play at some point is appropriate.
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As good as Ghost is, trashing a $5 is a big opportunity cost, especially when you would want to keep that $5 around as payload for the Ghost; although an advantage of Exorcist being a night card is that Ghost skips right over it.
Anyway I'll make an early prediction and say the Exorcist will be in the same category as Develop and Counting House; occasionally great but ignorable on most boards.
Trashing a $5 isn’t a big opportunity cost when you have a Necromancer and can still play it from the trash.
There are a bunch of Nocturne cards that give out Gold. Use one of those Golds to get Ghost from Exorcist.
Exorcist is non-terminal trashing that cannot be drawn dead (yay), but it costs $4 (boo). The $4 cost makes me hesistant to open with it, but it sounds reasonable to get on the second shuffle after getting some economy or draw cards.