Dominion Strategy Forum

Dominion Previews => Dominion: Renaissance Previews => Dominion: Nocturne Previews => Topic started by: LastFootnote on October 25, 2017, 08:00:04 am

Title: Bonus Preview #3: Fool
Post by: LastFootnote on October 25, 2017, 08:00:04 am
Disclaimer: To make any sense of this bonus preview, make sure you've read today's main previews: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=17777.0

(http://i.imgur.com/8HjPeQK.png)

Whoís that schlemiel thatís always getting lost in the woods? Itís todayís bonus preview, Fool. Thereís a lot to unpack here, so letís start at the bottom.

Lost in the Woods is a new kind of card-shaped thing, a State! You can think of it like a status effect. While itís in front of you, at the start of each of your turns, you may discard a card to receive a Boon. Usually thatís a pretty good deal. But thereís only one copy of Lost in the Woods, so you might have to take it from somebody else.

Thatís where Fool comes in. If you already have Lost in the Woods, Fool does nothing. Heís lost in the woods, donít you know! Maybe you can at least discard him for a Boon. Anyway. If you donít have Lost in the Woods, then Fool goes on a little adventure. He bumbles around, getting three random Boons that you can receive in any order. For instance, if you drew the Boons that Donald X. previewed today (The Seaís Gift, The Sunís Gift, and The Swampís Gift), you might choose to first gain a Will-oí-Wisp, then look at the top 4 cards of your deck and discard/reorder them, then draw whichever one you put back on top! Not bad for a $3 card. Then you take Lost in the Woods, and your Fools are useless until somebody else plays one. At least you get that bonus every turn.

Finally, in games that use Fool, everybody starts with a Lucky Coin. Itís like a Copper that gains Silvers! It can really speed up your deck early on. And later if you decide you have enough Silver, maybe you can remodel Lucky Coin into a Gold or something. Or trash it. Or just stop playing it. The possibilities are (not actually) endless.
Title: Re: Bonus Preview #3: Fool
Post by: ThetaSigma12 on October 25, 2017, 08:01:54 am
Oh man State cards too? Dang that's a lot of mechanics.
Title: Re: Bonus Preview #3: Fool
Post by: Cuzz on October 25, 2017, 08:03:16 am
Whaaaa
Title: Re: Bonus Preview #3: Fool
Post by: NoMoreFun on October 25, 2017, 08:25:58 am
Really excited about what other States there might be.

I posted a card called "Fool" in the fan cards forum more than 5 years ago (before Dark Ages came out); it had one copy and went between players. I never thought I'd actually see a hot potato card in an official set.
Title: Re: Bonus Preview #3: Fool
Post by: J Reggie on October 25, 2017, 08:33:46 am
Wow, the product info blurb didn't even say anything about States! I wonder how many there are? Looks like there might not be room for a traveller, though, especially since Fool isn't one. These cards are cool enough.
Title: Re: Bonus Preview #3: Fool
Post by: 4est on October 25, 2017, 08:46:23 am
It's pretty fun to be Lost in the Woods with your Faithful Hound.
Title: Re: Bonus Preview #3: Fool
Post by: Asper on October 25, 2017, 08:51:20 am
Glad to see only one person can have a state at a time. I wasn't ready to kill Edicts, too ^^
Although, how interesting are they now that states exist?  :-\

I can really say that Heirlooms are my favourite mechanic from Nocturne so far. I usually hate to parrot when people praise something, because I'm a grumpy hermit and stuff, but the mechanic is very cleverly, cleanly implemented. The Heirlooms themselves haven't been a dissapointment either.

Also, if HiG was still the German publisher, man would they be happy over this card. They could easily translate it as their company name and nobody would even know it was Fool in English.
Title: Re: Bonus Preview #3: Fool
Post by: sorawotobu on October 25, 2017, 09:11:24 am
I'm getting the impression that much like Dark Ages' actual theme was combos and Guilds' actual theme was bald people, this set's actual theme is making good players win less with stuff like Fool and Imp and Boons in general.
Title: Re: Bonus Preview #3: Fool
Post by: Asper on October 25, 2017, 09:14:28 am
I'm getting the impression that much like Dark Ages' actual theme was combos and Guilds' actual theme was bald people, this set's actual theme is making good players win less with stuff like Fool and Imp and Boons in general.

You mean because they are luck driven? I actually perceive that to be the case for Boons, and I guess Fool is weirdly political in a way, but I don't see Imp being bad-player-friendly at all.
Title: Re: Bonus Preview #3: Fool
Post by: sorawotobu on October 25, 2017, 09:18:42 am
I'm getting the impression that much like Dark Ages' actual theme was combos and Guilds' actual theme was bald people, this set's actual theme is making good players win less with stuff like Fool and Imp and Boons in general.

You mean because they are luck driven? I actually perceive that to be the case for Boons, and I guess Fool is weirdly political in a way, but I don't see Imp being bad-player-friendly at all.

The difference between drawing Imp at the top of your shuffle vs at the bottom is much greater than with other Lab effects, even Hunting Party.
Title: Re: Bonus Preview #3: Fool
Post by: Hockey Mask on October 25, 2017, 09:19:41 am
Iím going to go out on a limb and say this expansion may not be the best to introduce Dominion to a newbie. Weíve come a long way since 2008.
Title: Re: Bonus Preview #3: Fool
Post by: J Reggie on October 25, 2017, 09:24:10 am
Iím going to go out on a limb and say this expansion may not be the best to introduce Dominion to a newbie. Weíve come a long way since 2008.

Yeah, at first with the night cards it looked pretty simple. A new game phase, that's easy to explain. Then there were heirlooms, which might be a bit complicated, but mostly for the person doing setup. But Boons and States, yeah that'll even make experienced players' heads hurt.
Title: Re: Bonus Preview #3: Fool
Post by: markusin on October 25, 2017, 09:30:14 am
Hey, Lucky Coin provides fuel for Looks Pooka and stuff (dangit auto-correct, Pooka is a word apparently). It's not too shabby, and it doesn't make me feel awful spending it in the opening like Cursed Gold.

How likely is it to get a $5 on the second shuffle with Silver/Silver/Silver with Lucky Coin?

It's neat that getting the three Boons off Fool isn't conditional on stealing Lost in the Woods from another player. You can get the effect from getting Lost in the Woods by taking it from limbo as well. This is as opposed to Lurker, where playing the first one sets up gains for your opponent's Lurker.
Title: Re: Bonus Preview #3: Fool
Post by: benedettosoxfan on October 25, 2017, 10:23:01 am
Wow. There is so much going on with this game already. Like there is sooooooo much going on. And we still have 2 new concepts to go over this week. Is it possible that there's "too" much going on with Nocturne? It seems like this easily could have been two entire expansions instead of one. I'm not complaining and it's gonna be crazy figuring out how to properly conquer these new concepts, but the amount of brand new complex mechanics is huge. Considering it's the 11th expansion and most of us have the whole dominion thing down by now, I greatly accept this new challenges. But yeah a new player probably won't be messing around with nocturne for a long time.

Heirlooms are awesome. Probably the thing I'm most excited for and game warping in the best way possible.
Title: Re: Bonus Preview #3: Fool
Post by: mameluke on October 25, 2017, 10:35:24 am
How do states work with Possession? If I possess my opponent and play Fool, who 'receives' the Boons?
Title: Re: Bonus Preview #3: Fool
Post by: LastFootnote on October 25, 2017, 10:43:06 am
How do states work with Possession? If I possess my opponent and play Fool, who 'receives' the Boons?

Your opponent does, assuming they didn't already have Lost in the Woods.
Title: Re: Bonus Preview #3: Fool
Post by: Ethan on October 25, 2017, 10:46:01 am
wow, so much mechanics, maybe a little too much, but at least Fool Lost in the Wood is quite interesting!
Title: Re: Bonus Preview #3: Fool
Post by: LastFootnote on October 25, 2017, 10:47:21 am
Wow. There is so much going on with this game already. Like there is sooooooo much going on. And we still have 2 new concepts to go over this week. Is it possible that there's "too" much going on with Nocturne? It seems like this easily could have been two entire expansions instead of one. I'm not complaining and it's gonna be crazy figuring out how to properly conquer these new concepts, but the amount of brand new complex mechanics is huge. Considering it's the 11th expansion and most of us have the whole dominion thing down by now, I greatly accept this new challenges. But yeah a new player probably won't be messing around with nocturne for a long time.

Really there's only one "new concept" left, since the fifth mechanic in the blurb is "cards that you can only get from other cards", which not only isn't new to Nocturne, but you've already seen a bunch of them this week (Imp, Ghost, Will-o'-Wisp).

I think the Nocturne mechanics are pretty easy for new players. And they can certainly make for some terse cards. You may have noticed that out of all the new stuff shown so far, only Idol needs to use the smaller font.
Title: Re: Bonus Preview #3: Fool
Post by: Jeebus on October 25, 2017, 10:58:35 am
How many States are there? Do they all work the same way? (It only applies to one player, who keeps it until something says otherwise. And there's one of each.)
Title: Re: Bonus Preview #3: Fool
Post by: SuperHans on October 25, 2017, 11:08:59 am
This is one of the most thematic cards yet. Everything shown so far just seems like a lot of fun. I'm looking forward to this set more than any other set before I think.
Title: Re: Bonus Preview #3: Fool
Post by: Cave-o-sapien on October 25, 2017, 11:13:27 am
How many States are there? Do they all work the same way?

50 and no: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_alcohol_laws_of_the_United_States

Title: Re: Bonus Preview #3: Fool
Post by: Jeebus on October 25, 2017, 11:25:06 am
How many States are there? Do they all work the same way?

50 and no: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_alcohol_laws_of_the_United_States

Where I am, the United States of Mexico, there are actually 31.
Title: Re: Bonus Preview #3: Fool
Post by: LastFootnote on October 25, 2017, 11:28:13 am
How many States are there? Do they all work the same way? (It only applies to one player, who keeps it until something says otherwise. And there's one of each.)

I mean, I understand your curiosity, but unfortunately you'll have to wait until the set releases to know the answers.
Title: Re: Bonus Preview #3: Fool
Post by: chipperMDW on October 25, 2017, 11:49:27 am
How many States are there? Do they all work the same way? (It only applies to one player, who keeps it until something says otherwise. And there's one of each.)

I mean, I understand your curiosity, but unfortunately you'll have to wait until the set releases to know the answers.

Also, what are all the other cards in Nocturne?
Title: Re: Bonus Preview #3: Fool
Post by: LastFootnote on October 25, 2017, 11:59:18 am
How many States are there? Do they all work the same way? (It only applies to one player, who keeps it until something says otherwise. And there's one of each.)

I mean, I understand your curiosity, but unfortunately you'll have to wait until the set releases to know the answers.

Also, what are all the other cards in Nocturne?

Man, that's already public knowledge, for some values of "all" and "cards".

Bard, Changeling, Cobbler, Conclave, Cursed Village, Den of Sin, Exorcist, Guardian, Leprechaun, Monastery, Necromancer, Night Watchman, Pixie, Sacred Grove, Secret Cave, Skulk, Tormentor, Tracker, Tragic Hero, Vampire, and Werewolf.
Title: Re: Bonus Preview #3: Fool
Post by: SCSN on October 25, 2017, 01:19:49 pm
Lucky Coin [...] doesn't make me feel awful spending it in the opening like Cursed Gold.

I envy you.
Title: Re: Bonus Preview #3: Fool
Post by: singletee on October 25, 2017, 01:23:43 pm
Become the Prince of Fools and you can get 4 Boons at the beginning of every turn.
Title: Re: Bonus Preview #3: Fool
Post by: LastFootnote on October 25, 2017, 01:26:57 pm
Become the Prince of Fools and you can get 4 Boons at the beginning of every turn.

Well, assuming an opponent takes Lost in the Woods from you each turn.
Title: Re: Bonus Preview #3: Fool
Post by: Jacob marley on October 25, 2017, 01:41:49 pm
How do states work with Possession? If I possess my opponent and play Fool, who 'receives' the Boons?

#banpossession
Title: Re: Bonus Preview #3: Fool
Post by: Burning Skull on October 25, 2017, 02:03:06 pm
Fool is a close contender for the best art in the game.

Especially if you look at him on one of those turns where you are already Lost in the Woods and he just sits in your hand and smiles back at you.
Title: Re: Bonus Preview #3: Fool
Post by: Marcory on October 25, 2017, 03:18:11 pm
How many States are there? Do they all work the same way?

50 and no: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_alcohol_laws_of_the_United_States

Please tell me that this is a Rick Roll too.
Title: Re: Bonus Preview #3: Fool
Post by: theory on October 25, 2017, 03:22:09 pm
How many States are there? Do they all work the same way?

50 and no: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_alcohol_laws_of_the_United_States

Please tell me that this is a Rick Roll too.
You're not allowed to post rickrolls outside of our special rickroll forum: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?board=50.0
Title: Re: Bonus Preview #3: Fool
Post by: pacovf on October 25, 2017, 03:24:32 pm
How many States are there? Do they all work the same way?

50 and no: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_alcohol_laws_of_the_United_States (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ)

Please tell me that this is a Rick Roll too.
You're not allowed to post rickrolls outside of our special rickroll forum: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?board=50.0

It would have been more fun if you had replaced the original link, though no idea how you've managed that redirection.
Title: Re: Bonus Preview #3: Fool
Post by: Stealth Tomato on October 25, 2017, 03:31:10 pm
Donald X, probably: "Let's see how many ways I can make the web UI impossible to build for this expansion!"
Title: Re: Bonus Preview #3: Fool
Post by: Cave-o-sapien on October 25, 2017, 03:59:46 pm
Donald X, probably: "Let's see how many ways I can make the web UI impossible to build for this expansion!"

Impossible for Making Fun. ShIT seems to be handling it pretty well. I mean, we are playing with the cards prior to release.
Title: Re: Bonus Preview #3: Fool
Post by: Asper on October 25, 2017, 06:04:31 pm
I'm getting the impression that much like Dark Ages' actual theme was combos and Guilds' actual theme was bald people, this set's actual theme is making good players win less with stuff like Fool and Imp and Boons in general.

You mean because they are luck driven? I actually perceive that to be the case for Boons, and I guess Fool is weirdly political in a way, but I don't see Imp being bad-player-friendly at all.

The difference between drawing Imp at the top of your shuffle vs at the bottom is much greater than with other Lab effects, even Hunting Party.

I have absolutely no idea what you mean here. Unless when you say "top of the shuffle" you mean "beginning of your turn". Imp looks at cards you have in play. What does it have to do with the shuffle?
Title: Re: Bonus Preview #3: Fool
Post by: Mic Qsenoch on October 25, 2017, 06:41:02 pm
Well, at least we made it to day three!
Title: Re: Bonus Preview #3: Fool
Post by: Donald X. on October 25, 2017, 06:52:18 pm
Well, at least we made it to day three!
What's with that comma on Transmogrify? I don't think we ever settled that.
Title: Re: Bonus Preview #3: Fool
Post by: ThetaSigma12 on October 25, 2017, 06:55:18 pm
"Outside of a blue dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a blue dog, it's too dark to read, but you're not sure what 'it' refers to."

FTFY
Title: Re: Bonus Preview #3: Fool
Post by: Seprix on October 25, 2017, 07:01:24 pm
Pretty awesome Donald X. got Vincent van Gogh to pose for Fool.
Title: Re: Bonus Preview #3: Fool
Post by: chipperMDW on October 25, 2017, 07:15:05 pm
"Outside of a blue dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a blue dog, it's too dark to read, but you're not sure what 'it' refers to."

FTFY

Yeah, I originally typed it without the outer quotes; then I added them when I changed it to match the style of the earlier post and forgot to redo the inner ones. I noticed after I posted, but didn't want to clutter the post with the "Last Edit" note. I thought the incorrect quotes would be the lesser of the two evils.
Title: Re: Bonus Preview #3: Fool
Post by: LastFootnote on October 25, 2017, 08:52:04 pm
Pretty awesome Donald X. got Vincent van Gogh to pose for Fool.

To me he looks like Michael J. Nelson.
Title: Re: Bonus Preview #3: Fool
Post by: dz on October 25, 2017, 10:40:09 pm
why does Lost in the Woods not have the moon icon?
Title: Re: Bonus Preview #3: Fool
Post by: Donald X. on October 25, 2017, 10:44:03 pm
why does Lost in the Woods not have the moon icon?
You have to save something for the second printing.
Title: Re: Bonus Preview #3: Fool
Post by: Cave-o-sapien on October 25, 2017, 10:47:22 pm
why does Lost in the Woods not have the moon icon?

It's hard to be that lost if you can see the moon.
Title: Re: Bonus Preview #3: Fool
Post by: Triumph44 on October 26, 2017, 01:01:24 am
Getting this back on track (and I confess I didn't read it correctly either the first time, but I also thought on my first game with Ironmonger that you always draw 2 with it until my opponent pointed out my error) -

I really like Fool and the Boons.  There's those rare games where Ruined Market can be a critical card because it provides the only source of +Buy, but there isn't really much else in Dominion where you can get minor benefits because of the general paucity of actions and the fact that besides Events, everything stays in your deck.  This brings that idea of 'can I get what's missing in the Supply' without the extreme luck and sloggishness of a card like Black Market.

And I haven't even talked about the Lucky Coin which affects games in ways I don't really understand yet, but it's a fun wrinkle to work out.

Title: Re: Bonus Preview #3: Fool
Post by: Asper on October 26, 2017, 01:59:40 am
So I played a few games with tthe Nocturne cards, and I must say Fool is easily the one I like the least for now. It has the same issue I had with Farmer's Market back then, in that how beneficial it is to you heavily depends on when you get it in hand compared to when your opponents do. Where people defended Farmer's Market under the assumption that you could control when and how often you play it, Fool actively removes your ability to control this by including Lucky coin, which bloats your deck with Silver. There are also so many Boons that do so many different, often non-trivial things, and the luck factor is incredible - especially as there's exactly one Boon that creates an Action and therefore makes Fool nonterminal. And then there's the state, and Will 'o Wisp... It's like a storm of components flying around. And if I look at how much reservation my Spells (which are basically non-random, simpler Boons you can buy) received for being "confusing", then I really don't know what to say.

I admit I really enjoyed playing with Lucky Coin itself, so my hope is that Fool will get established as a very weak card you can usually skip, so I'll just be able to have the Heirloom itself. Of course, with Fool giving a bonus every single turn after it's played until you contest it, it gives a really strong incentive to play the roulette yourself... Which, again, is a problem I had with Gathering cards.

I know this sounds like my Empires rants all over, but I want to stress that I also really enjoyed the other cards. I love Faithful Hound, I had fun buying all too many Devil's Workshops, I loved trashing my Mirror for a Ghost and I also had great fun with Cursed Gold and gaining Ghost Villages using Hermit. Even Druid was perfectly fine, with the randomness happening during setup only (I already wrote that it's quite similar to my Summoner). And buying Estates for 2 VP with Sheperd, and setting aside my Treasures for Crypt, and and and... But Fool has this super random nature that rubs me the wrong way.
Title: Re: Bonus Preview #3: Fool
Post by: Gherald on October 26, 2017, 02:28:23 am
You're right about how random it is, and confusing at first. I'm sure the set could be fine without it.

But I'm thinking that -- once we're more used to it -- that confusion and randomness-handling will make way for plenty of skillful play, and it'll play out sort of like Tournament and Black Market already do.
Title: Re: Bonus Preview #3: Fool
Post by: Witherweaver on October 26, 2017, 02:23:14 pm
I pity the Fool that gets Lost in the Woods.
Title: Re: Bonus Preview #3: Fool
Post by: J Reggie on December 06, 2017, 08:26:25 pm
why does Lost in the Woods not have the moon icon?
You have to save something for the second printing.

Is Nocturne already in its second printing? I just got it and Lost in the Woods has a moon icon. The card itself is slightly different in color between the sides, though. Doesn't make a difference but it's kind of strange.
Title: Re: Bonus Preview #3: Fool
Post by: Donald X. on December 06, 2017, 09:07:14 pm
why does Lost in the Woods not have the moon icon?
You have to save something for the second printing.

Is Nocturne already in its second printing? I just got it and Lost in the Woods has a moon icon. The card itself is slightly different in color between the sides, though. Doesn't make a difference but it's kind of strange.
Any color differences are unintentional and make us sad.

Jay had the opportunity to fix a few things people caught in the previews, and fixed them. The artist name on Greed, the missing expansion symbols, the graphic glitch on Will-o'-Wisp. I am not sure if all copies have the fixes but most do.