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Dominion => Dominion: Renaissance Previews => Dominion General Discussion => Dominion: Nocturne Previews => Topic started by: Donald X. on October 24, 2017, 03:02:40 am

Title: Previews #2: Shepherd, Pooka, Cemetery
Post by: Donald X. on October 24, 2017, 03:02:40 am
I have this preview from my father, who had it from his father, who had it from his father. Who won it in a cat's cradle contest, if you must know.

Seven cards in Nocturne come with an Heirloom. Let's see one.

(http://i.imgur.com/6iRdA9s.png)

That yellow band means, everyone replaces a starting Copper with the listed card. In a game with Shepherd, you have 3 Estates, 6 Coppers, and a Pasture. In a game with Shepherd, Pooka, and Cemetery (they're coming in a second), you start with 3 Estates, 4 Coppers, a Pasture, a Cursed Gold, and a Haunted Mirror. See how it works?

Shepherd can draw lots of cards if you have a bunch of Victory cards. Pasture meanwhile is a Victory card that rewards you for holding onto those Estates, or getting more of them.

(http://i.imgur.com/McEqH7U.png)

Pooka lets you trade a Treasure you didn't want for +4 Cards, that seems completely innocent. It can't trash Cursed Gold but everyone has their limits. And as it happens you have some Cursed Gold. It's a Treasure worth $3 but you get Cursed each time you use it. Do you buy that great card turn one and get a Curse with it? I can't make that decision for you.

(http://i.imgur.com/osLqYRP.png)

Cemetery trashes cards when you gain it, that's pretty sweet. I will just tell you now, it is great to gain it with a Workshop or something. It means everyone has a Haunted Mirror, which gives you a little sub-game to play to get a Ghost. And there's Ghost, another Spirit. It comes out at Night, finds an Action, and does it twice on your next turn.
Title: Re: Previews #2: Shepherd, Pooka, Cemetery
Post by: Cave-o-sapien on October 24, 2017, 03:05:53 am
I feel like someone predicted something very close to some of these in the Heirloom speculation thread, but I don't think anyone called the paired start cards mechanic. I like it!

The Spirit keyword has me very curious. Waiting for that other ghostly shoe to drop.
Title: Re: Previews #2: Shepherd, Pooka, Cemetery
Post by: Awaclus on October 24, 2017, 03:13:22 am
This way of getting the Heirlooms in the game is super elegant.
Title: Re: Previews #2: Shepherd, Pooka, Cemetery
Post by: chipperMDW on October 24, 2017, 03:16:15 am
How many Ghosts are in the pile? Seems like it wouldn't be more than 6 (max supported players) since nobody's usually going to trash one of these Haunted Mirrors more than once (although I guess Thief could have done it more times, and maybe there are new things that can).
Title: Re: Previews #2: Shepherd, Pooka, Cemetery
Post by: Donald X. on October 24, 2017, 03:19:16 am
How many Ghosts are in the pile? Seems like it wouldn't be more than 6 (max supported players) since nobody's usually going to trash one of these Haunted Mirrors more than once (although I guess Thief could have done it more times, and maybe there are new things that can).
There are 6 Ghosts (and 6 of each Heirloom of course).
Title: Re: Previews #2: Shepherd, Pooka, Cemetery
Post by: Titandrake on October 24, 2017, 03:26:04 am
Me reading Shepard/Pasture for the first time

"...I have no idea how this plays."

Me reading Pooka/Cursed Gold for the first time.

"...I guess Smithy and Stables merged together and you trash instead of discard? And I have no idea how Cursed Gold plays."

Me reading Cemetary/Haunted Mirror/Ghost for the first time.

"...I CONTINUE TO HAVE NO IDEA HOW ANY OF THIS WILL PLAY."

Title: Re: Previews #2: Shepherd, Pooka, Cemetery
Post by: Ethan on October 24, 2017, 03:26:10 am
this will be one of my favourite mechanics!
Title: Re: Previews #2: Shepherd, Pooka, Cemetery
Post by: enfynet on October 24, 2017, 03:29:23 am
Staying up until 3am (EST) has it's benefits... until you see a Ghost.
Title: Re: Previews #2: Shepherd, Pooka, Cemetery
Post by: AJD on October 24, 2017, 03:32:11 am
I feel like someone predicted something very close to some of these in the Heirloom speculation thread, but I don't think anyone called the paired start cards mechanic.

I dunno about the heirloom speculation thread, but I basically called Cursed Gold back in 2013 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=6594.msg180597#msg180597). :)
Title: Re: Previews #2: Shepherd, Pooka, Cemetery
Post by: dedicateddan on October 24, 2017, 03:33:23 am
Is there a flavor explanation on Pooka/Cursed Gold?
Title: Re: Previews #2: Shepherd, Pooka, Cemetery
Post by: tailred on October 24, 2017, 03:35:36 am
Alms/cemetery looks like a power opening.
Title: Re: Previews #2: Shepherd, Pooka, Cemetery
Post by: Ethan on October 24, 2017, 03:35:56 am
I feel like someone predicted something very close to some of these in the Heirloom speculation thread, but I don't think anyone called the paired start cards mechanic.

I dunno about the heirloom speculation thread, but I basically called Cursed Gold back in 2013 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=6594.msg180597#msg180597). :)

you're Fortune teller! I'm sure i have read this thread before. very impressive.
Title: Re: Previews #2: Shepherd, Pooka, Cemetery
Post by: AJD on October 24, 2017, 03:38:20 am
Everyone's favorite rules question: If these kingdom cards are in the Black Market deck, are the Heirlooms used?
Title: Re: Previews #2: Shepherd, Pooka, Cemetery
Post by: Donald X. on October 24, 2017, 03:40:38 am
Is there a flavor explanation on Pooka/Cursed Gold?
The heirlooms are in a tough position, because you don't have to buy the card, you know, and yet you still have the heirloom. I think of it as something like "in a world of X, everyone has a Y." In a world of pookas, everyone has cursed gold. They are the source and as you can see they refuse to take it back themselves.
Title: Re: Previews #2: Shepherd, Pooka, Cemetery
Post by: Donald X. on October 24, 2017, 03:43:21 am
Everyone's favorite rules question: If these kingdom cards are in the Black Market deck, are the Heirlooms used?
I recommend not putting them in the Black Market deck, but yes, you do all setup for Black Market deck cards.
Title: Re: Previews #2: Shepherd, Pooka, Cemetery
Post by: Hockey Mask on October 24, 2017, 03:49:46 am
I feel like someone predicted something very close to some of these in the Heirloom speculation thread, but I don't think anyone called the paired start cards mechanic.

I dunno about the heirloom speculation thread, but I basically called Cursed Gold back in 2013 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=6594.msg180597#msg180597). :)
That was a pretty strong post you made. Nice job.
Title: Re: Previews #2: Shepherd, Pooka, Cemetery
Post by: Hockey Mask on October 24, 2017, 03:55:00 am
DX: Tell me there is a recommended game in the manual with all 7 heirlooms.
Title: Re: Previews #2: Shepherd, Pooka, Cemetery
Post by: markus on October 24, 2017, 03:58:00 am
DX: Tell me there is a recommended game in the manual with all 7 heirlooms.
I recommend adding Shelters and Fairgrounds.
Title: Re: Previews #2: Shepherd, Pooka, Cemetery
Post by: Donald X. on October 24, 2017, 04:04:07 am
DX: Tell me there is a recommended game in the manual with all 7 heirlooms.
Remember most recommended sets are 5 cards from the new set, 5 from another set.
Title: Re: Previews #2: Shepherd, Pooka, Cemetery
Post by: BBL on October 24, 2017, 04:15:06 am
I just want to state how impressed I am by all the card previewed until now. Elegant, simple, challenging, powerful, on theme - I love Nocturne so far.
Title: Re: Previews #2: Shepherd, Pooka, Cemetery
Post by: Minotaur on October 24, 2017, 04:45:10 am
I suppose coin cost doesn't matter that much for alt-gain, but Ghost feels kind of like a $5* to me on first look...
Title: Re: Previews #2: Shepherd, Pooka, Cemetery
Post by: pregnantbird on October 24, 2017, 04:49:14 am
I was never so happy to draw estates before :D

shepherd rules!!!! Ghost rules!!! Those cards are amazing! Had a game with them (also pasture) and masquerade and constant struggle if I should keep the Estates or not... When I chose to keep them, my ghost fired double masquerade :D shepherd was pretty reliable in drawing the deck :)

The combination of Cementry, Haunted Mirror and Ghost took me some time to understand but worked really neatly in the end!

Edit: Also taking an Outpost turn, putting aside an pasture for it with crypt and then playing some shepherds to draw everything to have a full second turn is neat :D

I also like how when you draw the whole deck, the ghost can be given any card by buying it before the night. There are probably many cards that go nicely with the ghost like secret passage or cartographer to choose the card it plays.

Edit 2: Just one important thing to add -> !!!man i love those new cards!!!
Title: Re: Previews #2: Shepherd, Pooka, Cemetery
Post by: faust on October 24, 2017, 05:16:18 am
shepherd rules!!!! Ghost rules!!!
You'll need to wait for the rulebook.
Title: Re: Previews #2: Shepherd, Pooka, Cemetery
Post by: J Reggie on October 24, 2017, 05:41:26 am
How am I supposed to get back to sleep now? I'm so excited for these cards!
Title: Re: Previews #2: Shepherd, Pooka, Cemetery
Post by: Minotaur on October 24, 2017, 05:48:09 am
shepherd rules!!!! Ghost rules!!!
You'll need to wait for the rulebook.

Well ok, but catapult rocks! (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=10661.msg616107#msg616107)
Title: Re: Previews #2: Shepherd, Pooka, Cemetery
Post by: Chris is me on October 24, 2017, 05:55:52 am
I just get why all these previews keep getting posted at weird times. Its part of the theme, get it? Hes posting the night before instead of the morning of.
Title: Re: Previews #2: Shepherd, Pooka, Cemetery
Post by: Hks on October 24, 2017, 05:57:58 am
How am I supposed to get back to sleep now? I'm so excited for these cards!
Dominion has given you a whole phase to sleep in, and here you are, complaining?

(Okay this is going to get old pretty soon)
Title: Re: Previews #2: Shepherd, Pooka, Cemetery
Post by: Hockey Mask on October 24, 2017, 06:17:46 am
DX: Tell me there is a recommended game in the manual with all 7 heirlooms.
Remember most recommended sets are 5 cards from the new set, 5 from another set.
That's not a "no"!!!!!
Title: Re: Previews #2: Shepherd, Pooka, Cemetery
Post by: Asper on October 24, 2017, 06:23:07 am
I feel like someone predicted something very close to some of these in the Heirloom speculation thread, but I don't think anyone called the paired start cards mechanic.

I dunno about the heirloom speculation thread, but I basically called Cursed Gold back in 2013 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=6594.msg180597#msg180597). :)

I really don't want to be mean here, but just like the idea of a card that gives plain +2 Actions, "Cursed Gold" has been thrown around by fans since pretty much the beginning of Dominion. And just like Necropolis, it's still a really bad idea for a kingdom card. The fact that all players equally and choicelessly start with exactly one copy of this instead of another weak card in their deck (again, just like with Necropolis) makes all the difference.
Title: Re: Previews #2: Shepherd, Pooka, Cemetery
Post by: LaLight on October 24, 2017, 06:24:18 am
I feel like someone predicted something very close to some of these in the Heirloom speculation thread, but I don't think anyone called the paired start cards mechanic.

I dunno about the heirloom speculation thread, but I basically called Cursed Gold back in 2013 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=6594.msg180597#msg180597). :)

I really don't want to be mean here, but just like the idea of a card that gives plain +2 Actions, "Cursed Gold" has been thrown around by fans since pretty much the beginning of Dominion. And just like Necropolis, it's still a really bad idea for a kingdom card. The fact that all players equally and choicelessly start with exactly one copy of this instead of another weak card in their deck (again, just like with Necropolis) makes all the difference.

Yes, and if you indeed click his link, this is the guy's idea as well.
Title: Re: Previews #2: Shepherd, Pooka, Cemetery
Post by: Asper on October 24, 2017, 06:36:58 am
I feel like someone predicted something very close to some of these in the Heirloom speculation thread, but I don't think anyone called the paired start cards mechanic.

I dunno about the heirloom speculation thread, but I basically called Cursed Gold back in 2013 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=6594.msg180597#msg180597). :)

I really don't want to be mean here, but just like the idea of a card that gives plain +2 Actions, "Cursed Gold" has been thrown around by fans since pretty much the beginning of Dominion. And just like Necropolis, it's still a really bad idea for a kingdom card. The fact that all players equally and choicelessly start with exactly one copy of this instead of another weak card in their deck (again, just like with Necropolis) makes all the difference.

Yes, and if you indeed click his link, this is the guy's idea as well.

Damn, thanks for pointing this out. I was on mobile and thought I knew what was going on, so I didn't bother clicking...  Now that I read it, I even recall reading the original thread. Sorry and impressive job, AJD! :D
Title: Re: Previews #2: Shepherd, Pooka, Cemetery
Post by: ThetaSigma12 on October 24, 2017, 06:40:14 am
Is it just me, or does Pooka look weak? It can only trash 6 cards, and +4 Cards doesn't seem that much better than Spice Merchant. I think I would almost always buy spice merchant over this unless there's no solid draw.
Title: Re: Previews #2: Shepherd, Pooka, Cemetery
Post by: Harley_Beckett on October 24, 2017, 06:46:32 am
Is it just me, or does Pooka look weak? It can only trash 6 cards, and +4 Cards doesn't seem that much better than Spice Merchant. I think I would almost always buy spice merchant over this unless there's no solid draw.

It could trash IGGs, or Masterpieces, I guess.  Also silvers?  And any coppers you might buy...

Could Pooka BM be a thing?  Trash coppers/silvers to it for draw, and buy gold/province as appropriate?
Title: Re: Previews #2: Shepherd, Pooka, Cemetery
Post by: Awaclus on October 24, 2017, 06:53:14 am
Is it just me, or does Pooka look weak? It can only trash 6 cards, and +4 Cards doesn't seem that much better than Spice Merchant. I think I would almost always buy spice merchant over this unless there's no solid draw.

It's just you. Pooka is crazy strong it's a trasher and early game engine component in the same card, but if you have extra +buy, it can remain an engine component for the entire game. It also gives you a lot of cycling which makes the trashing faster than you would expect especially if you also have another trasher that can get rid of the Curses.
Title: Re: Previews #2: Shepherd, Pooka, Cemetery
Post by: ThetaSigma12 on October 24, 2017, 07:03:33 am
Is it just me, or does Pooka look weak? It can only trash 6 cards, and +4 Cards doesn't seem that much better than Spice Merchant. I think I would almost always buy spice merchant over this unless there's no solid draw.

It's just you. Pooka is crazy strong it's a trasher and early game engine component in the same card, but if you have extra +buy, it can remain an engine component for the entire game. It also gives you a lot of cycling which makes the trashing faster than you would expect especially if you also have another trasher that can get rid of the Curses.
I'm still not seeing it. It costs (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/7/7d/Coin5.png/16px-Coin5.png) so it's not going to be picked up super early unless you use Cursed Gold or get 5/2. Once you've used it 6 times it's generally a dud, unless you have extra buys to make it basically a Smithy. The cycling is a good point, but it would also make Pooka miss the shuffle more, right? All in all, it seems like a good early game (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/7/7d/Coin5.png/16px-Coin5.png) but obsoleted in most late games and weaker mid games.

EDIT: Comparing it to Stables is interesting. The big question is it worth the trashing to downgrade to a Smithy? I think not, unless it's the only trashing on the board.
Title: Re: Previews #2: Shepherd, Pooka, Cemetery
Post by: faust on October 24, 2017, 07:48:40 am
There's a whole bunch of cards that gain you some Treasures you don't really want. JoaT, Treasure Trove, opponents' Embassies and Governors, Treasure Hunter etc. Pooka is quite nice with all of them.
Title: Re: Previews #2: Shepherd, Pooka, Cemetery
Post by: BBL on October 24, 2017, 07:50:57 am
Fun fact: With Cursed Gold you can now open Province Turn 1 with Baker or Borrow on the board.
Title: Re: Previews #2: Shepherd, Pooka, Cemetery
Post by: markusin on October 24, 2017, 07:54:34 am
Is it just me, or does Pooka look weak? It can only trash 6 cards, and +4 Cards doesn't seem that much better than Spice Merchant. I think I would almost always buy spice merchant over this unless there's no solid draw.

It's just you. Pooka is crazy strong it's a trasher and early game engine component in the same card, but if you have extra +buy, it can remain an engine component for the entire game. It also gives you a lot of cycling which makes the trashing faster than you would expect especially if you also have another trasher that can get rid of the Curses.
I'm still not seeing it. It costs (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/7/7d/Coin5.png/16px-Coin5.png) so it's not going to be picked up super early unless you use Cursed Gold or get 5/2. Once you've used it 6 times it's generally a dud, unless you have extra buys to make it basically a Smithy. The cycling is a good point, but it would also make Pooka miss the shuffle more, right? All in all, it seems like a good early game (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/7/7d/Coin5.png/16px-Coin5.png) but obsoleted in most late games and weaker mid games.

EDIT: Comparing it to Stables is interesting. The big question is it worth the trashing to downgrade to a Smithy? I think not, unless it's the only trashing on the board.

To me, the fact that it both trashes and cycles in the early and midgame game makes it potentially very potent, and the Cursed Gold helps you do stuff with your big draw as well if you really want an expensive card. The main problem with an early game Pooka would be dead draw of your other actions, but this is the expansion with Night cards that are not drawn dead.

It's not quite a Smithy+ though, as they do not stack too well for very long
Title: Re: Previews #2: Shepherd, Pooka, Cemetery
Post by: SinisterHologram on October 24, 2017, 08:06:24 am
I know others have said it, but I want to echo their comments. Donald, you really did an impressive job with how elegant this heirloom mechanic is. I'm curious how you developed that idea and/or how that implementation came to you.
Really good! I stopped playing Dominion online for a while because my compulsion to play was getting in the way of other things in my life, but this might get me back for another tour. At the very least I am certainly going to get the physical version.
Title: Re: Previews #2: Shepherd, Pooka, Cemetery
Post by: Orange on October 24, 2017, 08:20:27 am
How many Ghosts are in the pile? Seems like it wouldn't be more than 6 (max supported players) since nobody's usually going to trash one of these Haunted Mirrors more than once (although I guess Thief could have done it more times, and maybe there are new things that can).
There are 6 Ghosts (and 6 of each Heirloom of course).

Hmm.  I thought there could be other cards that trigger Ghosts, like there are with Spoils.  I guess that it still possible but less likely with only 6.
Title: Re: Previews #2: Shepherd, Pooka, Cemetery
Post by: aku_chi on October 24, 2017, 08:33:20 am
Let's do some Cursed Gold opening math!  Here is the likelihood of a particular hand on turn 1 (and turn 2, if we ignore other shenanigans):

3 Copper + Cursed Gold = 23.81%
3 Copper = 23.81%
2 Copper + Cursed Gold = 17.86%
4 Copper = 17.86%
4 Copper + Cursed Gold = 5.95%
2 Copper = 5.95%
5 Copper = 2.38%
1 Copper + Cursed Gold = 2.38%

If you choose to use the Cursed Gold, your opening possibilities are:
$2 | $7: 5.95%
$3 | $6: 23.81%
$4 | $5: 20.24%
$5 | $4: 20.24%
$6 | $3: 23.81%
$7 | $2: 5.95%

If you choose not to use the Cursed Gold in the opening, your possibilities are:
$1 | $5: 2.38%
$2 | $4: 23.81%
$3 | $3: 47.62%
$4 | $2: 23.81%
$5 | $1: 2.38%
Title: Re: Previews #2: Shepherd, Pooka, Cemetery
Post by: Qvist on October 24, 2017, 08:47:45 am
Forager openings make for interesting Cursed Gold interactions as who is going to trash it first.
Also Counterfeit/Cursed Gold is an interesting interaction as you have to think about getting lets of money this turn and also can get rid of the card worth it gaining 2 Curses.
Title: Re: Previews #2: Shepherd, Pooka, Cemetery
Post by: Orange on October 24, 2017, 08:53:54 am
Cursed Gold makes me feel like a college kid who got a credit card before he was ready for it...

"Turn 2 Pooka?"

"Yes, please."

"Turn 3 Raider?"

"Don't mind if I do.  I will deal with these Curses later...."   :-[
Title: Re: Previews #2: Shepherd, Pooka, Cemetery
Post by: Asper on October 24, 2017, 08:58:56 am
I'm also really glad about the art improvement compared to e.g. Devil's Workshop. Cemetary is especially nice. I like how Heirlooms create lots of decisions while each individual card is really simple.
Title: Re: Previews #2: Shepherd, Pooka, Cemetery
Post by: crlundy on October 24, 2017, 09:25:06 am
7 cards in one preview? Plus a bonus preview? Were getting spoiled!
Title: Re: Previews #2: Shepherd, Pooka, Cemetery
Post by: theory on October 24, 2017, 09:29:54 am
Shepherd would combo really well with some way to get Victory cards into your hand.  Like imagine if there was some kind of non-terminal Action that would sift through the top of your deck and draw all the Victory cards into your hand - a sort of reconnoiterer, if you will.  Shepherd would definitely combo with that.
Title: Re: Previews #2: Shepherd, Pooka, Cemetery
Post by: monomandan on October 24, 2017, 09:49:25 am
Any chance there are 13 (or more) spirits, each with a different number of cards in their pile? I'm not sure what that would accomplish, but then again, we're still not sure what the spirits do.
Title: Re: Previews #2: Shepherd, Pooka, Cemetery
Post by: Cuzz on October 24, 2017, 09:53:19 am
Like imagine if there was some kind of non-terminal Action that would sift through the top of your deck and draw all the Victory cards into your hand

Would have to cost $8 at least and then it competes with Province. Should probably check this thread before you post these things: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=699.0 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=699.0)
Title: Re: Previews #2: Shepherd, Pooka, Cemetery
Post by: allanfieldhouse on October 24, 2017, 10:08:24 am
Ghost sounds fun (and powerful)! It's a digging Summon-Throne that you can't draw dead.
Title: Re: Previews #2: Shepherd, Pooka, Cemetery
Post by: aladdinstardust on October 24, 2017, 10:43:30 am
Fun fact: With Cursed Gold you can now open Province Turn 1 with Baker or Borrow on the board.

If you have Baker and Borrow on the board, and two players buy Lost City before your turn, you could end up with 6 copper and a Cursed Gold allowing you to buy a Colony.
Title: Re: Previews #2: Shepherd, Pooka, Cemetery
Post by: LaLight on October 24, 2017, 10:46:04 am
Fun fact: With Cursed Gold you can now open Province Turn 1 with Baker or Borrow on the board.

If you have Baker and Borrow on the board, and two players buy Lost City before your turn, you could end up with 6 copper and a Cursed Gold allowing you to buy a Colony.

Only one can, you can have Alms + villa for +1
Title: Re: Previews #2: Shepherd, Pooka, Cemetery
Post by: fiercelord on October 24, 2017, 10:56:08 am
Thanks to Donald for the continued growth of this terrific game, I'm very excited for the challenge Nocturne presents!

Looking at Ghost I'm wondering when Night cards get discarded, if at all. Do they act like action or treasures where they are discarded after their use or are they one-shots where they stay out once used? Will there be a separate mate for night cards, like there was for reserve cards?
Title: Re: Previews #2: Shepherd, Pooka, Cemetery
Post by: Squidd on October 24, 2017, 11:00:10 am
The Night phase is still before Cleanup, so Night cards will be discarded like anything else unless they're also Durations. Those will be discarded at the end of the last turn when they do anything, like any other Durations.
Title: Re: Previews #2: Shepherd, Pooka, Cemetery
Post by: trivialknot on October 24, 2017, 11:04:38 am
Shepherd: To draw through your deck with Shepherd, you need 50% of your deck to be green--at least until you reach the end of your shuffle.  So I guess deck-drawing engines with just Shepherd usually aren't happening.

Pooka: In many games you want to get a silver (curse) in the first shuffle so you can buy a $5-cost in the second shuffle.  With Pooka in play, you can buy the $5-cost in your first shuffle and get the curse for free.

Cemetery: How many cards would you need to trash before it's worth buying this?  Even if you trash just 2 estates, it could be good, right?  Or maybe you prefer to wait for a bigger opportunity.
Title: Re: Previews #2: Shepherd, Pooka, Cemetery
Post by: dmet on October 24, 2017, 11:39:56 am
Alms makes Cemetery almost Chapel-level trashing. Without a cheap gainer, you're probably waiting a bit to use it, a bit like a big doctor overpay in the midgame.
Title: Re: Previews #2: Shepherd, Pooka, Cemetery
Post by: tripwire on October 24, 2017, 11:59:02 am
Ghost sounds really interesting to me. It looks like it'd create a lot of tension when it's a part of a traditional deck type. The fact that it's a throne makes me think it's an engine card, but it won't do anything if you draw your whole deck (unless you have some way to discard an action for it to find). The fact that it digs for an action to play makes me think it's a sloggy card, but any game it's in will always also include a trasher (Cemetery). As a result it might actually work best in those mythical "hybrid" decks.
Title: Re: Previews #2: Shepherd, Pooka, Cemetery
Post by: Squidd on October 24, 2017, 12:08:56 pm
Inherited Faithful Hounds would make good sheepdogs.
Title: Re: Previews #2: Shepherd, Pooka, Cemetery
Post by: mameluke on October 24, 2017, 12:12:07 pm
Ghost sounds really interesting to me. It looks like it'd create a lot of tension when it's a part of a traditional deck type. The fact that it's a throne makes me think it's an engine card, but it won't do anything if you draw your whole deck (unless you have some way to discard an action for it to find). The fact that it digs for an action to play makes me think it's a sloggy card, but any game it's in will always also include a trasher (Cemetery). As a result it might actually work best in those mythical "hybrid" decks.

Since the Night phase is after the Buy phase, you can still draw your whole deck, but you'll just have to buy another Action card during your Buy phase. This is really only an issue if you don't have multiple buys and you're greening, but that's probably not a draw-your-deck type anyhow.
Title: Re: Previews #2: Shepherd, Pooka, Cemetery
Post by: tripwire on October 24, 2017, 12:34:12 pm
Ghost sounds really interesting to me. It looks like it'd create a lot of tension when it's a part of a traditional deck type. The fact that it's a throne makes me think it's an engine card, but it won't do anything if you draw your whole deck (unless you have some way to discard an action for it to find). The fact that it digs for an action to play makes me think it's a sloggy card, but any game it's in will always also include a trasher (Cemetery). As a result it might actually work best in those mythical "hybrid" decks.

Since the Night phase is after the Buy phase, you can still draw your whole deck, but you'll just have to buy another Action card during your Buy phase. This is really only an issue if you don't have multiple buys and you're greening, but that's probably not a draw-your-deck type anyhow.

Oh, good point. Forgot you'd have any actions you bought that turn. Man, night's weird for me to think about, although a lot of these details will probably clear up pretty quickly once I get a chance to try things out. Maybe I'll get a chance to try things tonight.
Title: Re: Previews #2: Shepherd, Pooka, Cemetery
Post by: brokoli on October 24, 2017, 12:40:31 pm
These heirlooms cards are awesome !
Having played a few games with them, Cursed gold in particular is a real headache when no good trashers are in the game.

Alm/Cemetary is very strong when you can discard a necropolis to get the ghost (which happened in my last game, opponent quickly resigned ;D)
Title: Re: Previews #2: Shepherd, Pooka, Cemetery
Post by: GendoIkari on October 24, 2017, 01:25:09 pm
Cursed Gold adds more evidence to my theory that every time people here talk about how "you really shouldn't do that, and here's why" in response to fan cards, Donald says "oh yeah?".
Title: Re: Previews #2: Shepherd, Pooka, Cemetery
Post by: Jacob marley on October 24, 2017, 02:02:46 pm
Fun fact: With Cursed Gold you can now open Province Turn 1 with Baker or Borrow on the board.

Throw in Alms to open Provence/Tournament
Title: Re: Previews #2: Shepherd, Pooka, Cemetery
Post by: Jacob marley on October 24, 2017, 02:08:03 pm
Wait....

Did Shepard just make Scout good???   :o
Title: Re: Previews #2: Shepherd, Pooka, Cemetery
Post by: weesh on October 24, 2017, 02:10:04 pm
I don't think i'm a good enough player to be confident using cursed gold.
Seems so risky.  I'd use it to buy a sentry, or an altar, but if trashing isn't stellar, I can see myself screwing up my deck and getting behind.
I like that if you burn through the curses, it becomes a normal gold, and that in a 4 player game, there are fewer curses per person.

---

DX: Tell me there is a recommended game in the manual with all 7 heirlooms.
Remember most recommended sets are 5 cards from the new set, 5 from another set.

who are the recommended sets designed for?
putting all 7 heirloom cards in a single recommended set seems a little like making a recommended set with 7 events. 
could be fun, but also a bit brain melting.

---

Ghost sounds fun (and powerful)! It's a digging Summon-Throne that you can't draw dead.

Fun and powerful in a "I really hope i don't draw a mandatory trasher with a hand full of good stuff" sort of way!
a little danger to keep things interesting?
communicating clearly with ghosts has always been a bit of a challenge.
Title: Re: Previews #2: Shepherd, Pooka, Cemetery
Post by: Donald X. on October 24, 2017, 02:19:54 pm
I know others have said it, but I want to echo their comments. Donald, you really did an impressive job with how elegant this heirloom mechanic is. I'm curious how you developed that idea and/or how that implementation came to you.
As usual there will be a Secret History. The short version is: LF suggested having a card that replaced a starting Copper with something; once multiple cards had the setup I shortened the text for it; and Sir Martin suggested the yellow banner.
Title: Re: Previews #2: Shepherd, Pooka, Cemetery
Post by: Donald X. on October 24, 2017, 02:21:37 pm
who are the recommended sets designed for?
My sense of obligation to make a bunch of recommended sets.
Title: Re: Previews #2: Shepherd, Pooka, Cemetery
Post by: Cave-o-sapien on October 24, 2017, 02:25:47 pm
Is Shepherd a must-buy in Rebuild games?
Title: Re: Previews #2: Shepherd, Pooka, Cemetery
Post by: Gazbag on October 24, 2017, 02:36:01 pm
Is Shepherd a must-buy in Rebuild games?
Shepherd seems to make Rebuild even better yeah, discarding Victories to find Rebuilds could be useful and Pasture costs $2 so it goes straight to Duchy which seems like a boost too.
Title: Re: Previews #2: Shepherd, Pooka, Cemetery
Post by: sorawotobu on October 24, 2017, 02:43:50 pm
Everyone's favorite rules question: If these kingdom cards are in the Black Market deck, are the Heirlooms used?
I recommend not putting them in the Black Market deck, but yes, you do all setup for Black Market deck cards.

Do you have a suggestion for how to avoid this if one is using one copy of each (regular back) card as randomizers and then the randomizer deck as the Black Market deck?
Title: Re: Previews #2: Shepherd, Pooka, Cemetery
Post by: LastFootnote on October 24, 2017, 02:46:38 pm
I know others have said it, but I want to echo their comments. Donald, you really did an impressive job with how elegant this heirloom mechanic is. I'm curious how you developed that idea and/or how that implementation came to you.
As usual there will be a Secret History. The short version is: LF suggested having a card that replaced a starting Copper with something; once multiple cards had the setup I shortened the text for it; and Sir Martin suggested the yellow banner.

I don't think I so much suggested it as, you got the idea from my fan set which had such a card. I mean I'll still take credit, but.
Title: Re: Previews #2: Shepherd, Pooka, Cemetery
Post by: Willvon on October 24, 2017, 03:16:22 pm
Everyone's favorite rules question: If these kingdom cards are in the Black Market deck, are the Heirlooms used?
I recommend not putting them in the Black Market deck, but yes, you do all setup for Black Market deck cards.

Do you have a suggestion for how to avoid this if one is using one copy of each (regular back) card as randomizers and then the randomizer deck as the Black Market deck?

I use the randomizers for my Black Market deck. I just grab a bunch of them mixed together. However, before I set them out for the game, I look through them and pull out cards that are going to need extra tokens or chits that are not already in the game due to the other kingdom cards or Events. Then I just shuffle what's left and we are ready to go.  I will probably do the same with any heirloom cards that I see.
Title: Re: Previews #2: Shepherd, Pooka, Cemetery
Post by: Awaclus on October 24, 2017, 03:27:13 pm
Alms makes Cemetery almost Chapel-level trashing. Without a cheap gainer, you're probably waiting a bit to use it, a bit like a big doctor overpay in the midgame.

More like better than Donate -level trashing. I literally can't think of a single hypothetical kingdom where I wouldn't buy Alms -> Cemetery on at least one of the opening turns.
Title: Re: Previews #2: Shepherd, Pooka, Cemetery
Post by: Donald X. on October 24, 2017, 03:55:02 pm
Everyone's favorite rules question: If these kingdom cards are in the Black Market deck, are the Heirlooms used?
I recommend not putting them in the Black Market deck, but yes, you do all setup for Black Market deck cards.

Do you have a suggestion for how to avoid this if one is using one copy of each (regular back) card as randomizers and then the randomizer deck as the Black Market deck?
Skip them as they come up?
Title: Re: Previews #2: Shepherd, Pooka, Cemetery
Post by: Donald X. on October 24, 2017, 03:57:52 pm
I know others have said it, but I want to echo their comments. Donald, you really did an impressive job with how elegant this heirloom mechanic is. I'm curious how you developed that idea and/or how that implementation came to you.
As usual there will be a Secret History. The short version is: LF suggested having a card that replaced a starting Copper with something; once multiple cards had the setup I shortened the text for it; and Sir Martin suggested the yellow banner.

I don't think I so much suggested it as, you got the idea from my fan set which had such a card. I mean I'll still take credit, but.
Well I don't see it in your thread's OP. Maybe you mentioned it in a chat?
Title: Re: Previews #2: Shepherd, Pooka, Cemetery
Post by: pacovf on October 24, 2017, 04:01:10 pm
Losing your Pasture or Haunted mirror (with no action card in hand) to a Bandit etc. sounds painful.

Unrelated, Cursed Gold is a pretty big boost to early Trash-for-Benefit.
Title: Re: Previews #2: Shepherd, Pooka, Cemetery
Post by: LastFootnote on October 24, 2017, 04:14:01 pm
Well I don't see it in your thread's OP. Maybe you mentioned it in a chat?

I think you saw it in an earlier version of the set, and added the idea to your file. That exact card didn't work out, so eventually I removed it from the OP.
Title: Re: Previews #2: Shepherd, Pooka, Cemetery
Post by: FemurLemur on October 24, 2017, 04:50:18 pm
who are the recommended sets designed for?
My sense of obligation to make a bunch of recommended sets.

If it makes you feel any better, I think the power of suggestion is so strong that many players use and expect them.

I believe Empires (maybe it was Adventures?) had suggested sets for pairing with every other expansion except Alchemy. When my wife and I noticed this, we had a brief "bummer" moment before realizing that 1) we didn't actually have a reason to care, because 2) we could just randomly select 5 Alchemy and 5 Empires cards if we really wanted to, except 3) we didn't want to. We were like "Screw that. Let's just play with full randomization....... after we finish these recommended sets"
Title: Re: Previews #2: Shepherd, Pooka, Cemetery
Post by: chipperMDW on October 24, 2017, 05:01:42 pm
I believe Empires (maybe it was Adventures?) had suggested sets for pairing with every other expansion except Alchemy. When my wife and I noticed this, we had a brief "bummer" moment before realizing that 1) we didn't actually have a reason to care, because 2) we could just randomly select 5 Alchemy and 5 Empires cards if we really wanted to, except 3) we didn't want to. We were like "Screw that. Let's just play with full randomization....... after we finish these recommended sets"

It was Adventures. But, actually, there are recommended kingdoms (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13032.msg483595#msg483595) for Adventures/Alchemy; they just got left out of the first edition rulebook. You can also find them on the wiki and in the second edition rulebook available for download from RGG's site.
Title: Re: Previews #2: Shepherd, Pooka, Cemetery
Post by: kieranmillar on October 24, 2017, 06:05:56 pm
Having just played with these previews, here is my humble opinion on Heirlooms:

OOOOOOOOOOHHHHHHHH MMMMMMMMYYYYYYYY GGGGGGGOOOOOOOOOOOODDDDDDDDD YYYYYYEEEEEESSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: Previews #2: Shepherd, Pooka, Cemetery
Post by: Jacob marley on October 24, 2017, 07:02:04 pm
After only few games, my initial take on Cursed Gold is, as long as there is decent trashing, don't be afraid of the curses.  Especially if there is an engine, cursed gold is a massive accelerator since you can easily open 4/5 for 2 components.  I just one one with Cemeteries and  Pookas (not  really important, I should have skipped for a Market) in which Cursed Gold helped me get 7 GM and 6 Conspirators, supported by Ghost town and  Ghost.  On the last turn, I paid off $16 debt from Mountain Pass and bought the last 4 cemeteries to pile out (GM and curse were empty).
Title: Re: Previews #2: Shepherd, Pooka, Cemetery
Post by: Qvist on October 24, 2017, 08:32:28 pm
To continue my post from yesterday, streamed again for 4 hours with the new cards. Here is my imp-ression:

- Shepherd only really shines if you can guarantee bigger starting hands, like Duration draw (Haven, Wharf, Caravan, Hireling, Ghost Town, Ghost, Archive) or similar non duration ways (Prince, Expedition, Save). There might be even more ways. Also to make your Shepherd decent you need a decent amount of green cards in your deck. Assuming it's not a dual type victory card, you need to at least need a way to get use out of the cards you draw. If your deck is full of victory cards, discarding victory cards for more victory cards is just not that great. Meaning you need discard for benefit cards. Vault, Storeroom and Artificer and probably Mill might be the strongest with this. But also to a lesser extent Oasis, Horse Traders might work. Still not sure how good it is, but also to consider is if the board is lacking draw and you can somehow guarantee that your Shepherd discards at least 2 Victory cards regularly, it also increases your handsize and can be quite good.
- You mostly want 1 Pooka I assume. It has 2 important engine pieces, trashing and drawing, making this quite powerful. If it is the only trashing and draw, it can get quite awkward and I don't know how good it is. If it is the only trasher but other draw, this is excellent, as you just get one and then switch to the other draw card. If it is not the only trasher, but the only draw, it is getting quite awkward as well. Overbuilding might be a trap then. If it is neither the only trasher, nor the only draw, I guess you might be able to skip it, but that heavily depends on how good the trasher is mainly. You definitely want to look out for cards that gains you extra treasure cards easily like Banquet, Cache, Trader, Treasure Trove, Masterpiece, Hoard, Haggler to name a few.
- Cemetary I can't evaluate yet. The Alms combo is quite strong as mentioned already a couple of times, especially if you Mirror+Necro+3 Coppers to even get Ghost. The tricky thing usually is (similar to Trade) to have $4 and want to trash cards from your hand. But even if you have let's say 2 Curses in hand, it is a pretty good deal, as it is -1 dead card and +4VP.

Let's talk about the Heirlooms seperately.

- Pasture, certainly the least exciting one, probably rarely matters. Forager interaction is interesting as trashing it might help your opponent more than you. I'm looking forward to the first game with it and Silk Road as 2VP Estates and an additional victory card from the start is quite good. Of course it boots Inheritance even way more.
- Cursed Gold is probably may favourite of the 3 Heirlooms. It is always tricky to decide if it is worth it playing it. If there is no Curser and no trashing on the board you might hold off on playing it even if it is tempting and just play it when greening. If there is a Curser and no trashing, it is getting weird as you want to buy it, meaning you want to play Cursed Gold to get it. By gaining a Curse yourself you weaken your own Curser but accelerate the time until your Cursed Gold gets to be a real Gold. So not sure how to evaluate the up- and downsides. If there is no Curser, but trashing, it depends of course on how good the trashing is, the better the trashing of course the less hesitant you play it. And if there is both Curser and trashing, getting the Curser is usually not really worth it. Also, Cursed Gold costs $4, meaning that trash for benefit openings are quite good, so Salvager or Remodel openings are quite tempting. And I haven't talked about the implications of the different possible splits. Being able to open Expand, Forge or Inheritance is excellent, in my game I was able to open King's Court which is maybe less exciting than it sounds, but might be too tempting to pass. Also Altar or Artisan openings are quite good of course and it also boosts Overlord openings and Turn 2 Donates if you have Cursed Gold turn 2.
- Haunted Mirror is not that easy to activate with Cemetary than it sounds, I fear that it might lead to quite lucky/lopsided games. But using Pooka, Masquerade, Forager or Spice Merchant to trash this seems so excellent. And to realize what Ghost exactly does, took me a while. You can't get more than one (Possession, Masquerade or Thief shenanigans aside) and it being a duration means you can't alternate play them like you would like to with Durations. As the effect is really strong you will have turns that are quite different in strength, especially as the Ghost is also a dead card on the non-Ghost turn. Also, I was worried that you might not hit if you draw your deck, but did only realize after playing with it that the buy phase is before playing Ghost. Not only this means that you basically hit something everytime, you can also if you draw your deck, plan what you Ghost which is just really really strong.

- Faithful Hound, my favourite of today's cards even if many are disappointed of it being to "basic", but I love Reaction cards and I love discard for benefit effects like Tunnel. While it is certainly not a power card, there so many ways to activate it to good use, making this way more useful than Moat or Beggar. Keep in mind that this only costs $2 so if you have spare buys or can gain this easily, the opportunity cost for maybe big effect can be quite impressive. So many cards can make good use out of it. Forum, Cellar, Hamlet, Oasis, Storeroom, Vault, Mill, Artificer, Dungeon, Warehouse, Inn and Oasis might be the strongest ones which you can use to get more and more benefit the longer the game goes, but it can be triggered my so many more cards and also quite easily like Minion, Guide, Cartographer, Embassy, Sentry and many more which depending on the other cards can also be quite strong. You might think, well you get the cards in hand, but what if your opponent plays a discard attack, then you have to just discard more cards? Ha, you can just discard the dogs and get them back when it is your turn, so that doesn't matter at all. And then there also other attacks from opponents. In one game Fortune Teller was a good pick for several reasons, but at second thought it maybe wasn't as my opponent once triggered 4 dogs from his one Fortune Teller play. I imagine that Rabble can be even worse in that regard. Also your opponent usually has to leave them on top in Scrying Pool games and Knights can also be quite unlucky when finding a dog.

-Devil's Workhop is pretty solid, not sure how well it compares to Ironworks or Armory, being forced to take the option makes is really tricky
-If Ghost Town is the only village, it is just so important as the +Actions are very limited, if it isn't just just get it for the on gain effect to get reliability similar for when you want to buy Villa
-Raider is just very bad so far, it doesn't do anything great in the early game and is not at all that impressive in the later game, pretty weak card
-Crypt is just bonkers good in every game so far. Being able to get lots of treasures out of the deck is so good in every game. You can get Terminal Draw + Crypt and if they line up you got rid of so many treasures allowing you to build the deck you want. But it is also very good in money strategies, making this a must buy on like most boards. And I indeed did play a Crypt+Capital board and that was the most fun board I have played in a while.

To elaborate on my impressions yesterday.
- Devil's Workhop in comparism to Ironworks: Can't be really used for Silk Road/Gardens but works for Vineyards because of Imps. On engine boards when you would open Ironworks, you will open DW as well. In addition to that is Chapel or Donate where you can just get additional Golds. Quite often you get DW later to just get a few Imps. All in all I would say it is a bit stronger than Ironworks and therefore maybe the strongest variant of the $4 gainers.
- Getting Ghost Town when it is the only village is just so important very often because of the limited actions. It is still hard for me to balance not losing the split vs. building the deck.
- Raider might be not that bad as originally assumed, but still quite weak. You basically want it in no village engine decks.
- Crypt didn't impress me that much today. Not sure if bad boards for it or just not that good after all. At least when I thought it was good, it didn't work out for me. I might have also been just unlucky. Still I think it is a quite important and powerful card.



I guess I had a lot to say today.
Title: Re: Previews #2: Shepherd, Pooka, Cemetery
Post by: Deadlock39 on October 24, 2017, 08:58:49 pm
Losing your Pasture or Haunted mirror (with no action card in hand) to a Bandit etc. sounds painful.

Unrelated, Cursed Gold is a pretty big boost to early Trash-for-Benefit.

This happened to me against Rattington today... it took me a few shuffles to figure out where the heck my mirror had gone.
Title: Re: Previews #2: Shepherd, Pooka, Cemetery
Post by: Robz888 on October 24, 2017, 10:35:28 pm
Shepherd would combo really well with some way to get Victory cards into your hand.  Like imagine if there was some kind of non-terminal Action that would sift through the top of your deck and draw all the Victory cards into your hand - a sort of reconnoiterer, if you will.  Shepherd would definitely combo with that.

Meh, I don't really see it.
Title: Re: Previews #2: Shepherd, Pooka, Cemetery
Post by: GendoIkari on October 24, 2017, 10:45:19 pm
The thing with Cursed Gold is that it can't be a Copper. That means that your choice isn't between a "normal" opening and a really good opening. It's between a pretty bad opening and a really good opening. If you don't want to use it, you'll be getting (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/3/32/Coin3.png/16px-Coin3.png)/(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/3/32/Coin3.png/16px-Coin3.png) or (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/2/2a/Coin4.png/16px-Coin4.png)/(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/3/3d/Coin2.png/16px-Coin2.png) normally. Maybe (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/7/7d/Coin5.png/16px-Coin5.png)/(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/f/f7/Coin1.png/16px-Coin1.png), but not usually.

But the other thing with it is that often that (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/3/32/Coin3.png/16px-Coin3.png) is a lot more than you want; often you'll just be using it as a Silver or even Copper in the opening.
Title: Re: Previews #2: Shepherd, Pooka, Cemetery
Post by: aku_chi on October 24, 2017, 11:04:07 pm
Let's do some Turn 3/4 Shepherd math!  Suppose you start with 3 Estates, a Pasture, and 6 Copper.  You buy a Shepherd on turn 1 or 2.  What number of cards can you expect to discard if you draw your Shepherd on turn 3/4?

If you also buy a non-Estate stop-card (like a terminal silver):
0: 10.6%
1: 42.4%
2: 38.2%
3: 8.5%
4: 0.3%
So, a 10.6% chance at a terrible outcome, a 42.4% chance at a decent outcome, and a 47% chance at a great outcome.

If you also buy a victory card (like Tunnel or Estate):
0: 4.5%
1: 30.3%
2: 45.5%
3: 18.2%
4: 1.5%
So, a 4.5% chance at a terrible outcome, a 30.3% chance at a mediocre outcome, a 45.5% chance at a good outcome, and a 19.7% chance at a great outcome.

I recommend against opening Shepherd + Estate unless there's a lot of support for early Estates.  But, opening Shepherd + something good seems pretty reasonable (though high variance) if you plan to maintain your victory card density.  Shepherd undoubtedly has a lot of synergy with some of the alt VP: I'm thinking Tunnel, Castles, and Silk Road.
Title: Re: Previews #2: Shepherd, Pooka, Cemetery
Post by: tim17 on October 26, 2017, 06:57:00 pm
Alms makes Cemetery almost Chapel-level trashing. Without a cheap gainer, you're probably waiting a bit to use it, a bit like a big doctor overpay in the midgame.

More like better than Donate -level trashing. I literally can't think of a single hypothetical kingdom where I wouldn't buy Alms -> Cemetery on at least one of the opening turns.

Counting House + Travelling Fair
Title: Re: Previews #2: Shepherd, Pooka, Cemetery
Post by: Awaclus on October 26, 2017, 07:59:08 pm
Alms makes Cemetery almost Chapel-level trashing. Without a cheap gainer, you're probably waiting a bit to use it, a bit like a big doctor overpay in the midgame.

More like better than Donate -level trashing. I literally can't think of a single hypothetical kingdom where I wouldn't buy Alms -> Cemetery on at least one of the opening turns.

Counting House + Travelling Fair

I didn't think of that. I wonder if it's strong enough to compete against other strategies that go for Alms+Cemetery though.
Title: Re: Previews #2: Shepherd, Pooka, Cemetery
Post by: Emeric on October 27, 2017, 07:06:47 am
How many Ghosts are in the pile? Seems like it wouldn't be more than 6 (max supported players) since nobody's usually going to trash one of these Haunted Mirrors more than once (although I guess Thief could have done it more times, and maybe there are new things that can).
There are 6 Ghosts (and 6 of each Heirloom of course).
But now we know there is other way to win ghost (with exorcist from preview #5) why only 6 ghosts ?
Title: Re: Previews #2: Shepherd, Pooka, Cemetery
Post by: Donald X. on October 27, 2017, 07:10:27 am
But now we know there is other way to win ghost (with exorcist from preview #5) why only 6 ghosts ?
Even with 500 cards, there's only so much space. If there were more Ghosts there would be less of something else, or none of something else. Six seemed to be enough, even for Exorcist.
Title: Re: Previews #2: Shepherd, Pooka, Cemetery
Post by: BBL on October 27, 2017, 09:33:24 am
Just played: Shepherd + Baron + cheap $2 make for a really fast game. :)
Title: Re: Previews #2: Shepherd, Pooka, Cemetery
Post by: singletee on October 27, 2017, 08:42:29 pm
If I Ghost into a Hirleling, does the Ghost stay in play attached to the Hireling for the rest of the game?

If I Ghost into a Hireling, but the first play of that Hireling results in +1 Card, +1 Action due to an opponent's Enchantress, does the Ghost stay in play attached to the Hireling for the rest of the game?
Title: Re: Previews #2: Shepherd, Pooka, Cemetery
Post by: Jeebus on October 27, 2017, 08:54:00 pm
If I Ghost into a Hirleling, does the Ghost stay in play attached to the Hireling for the rest of the game?

Yes, Ghost causes Hireling to be played twice (like Throne Room), so stays in play.

If I Ghost into a Hireling, but the first play of that Hireling results in +1 Card, +1 Action due to an opponent's Enchantress, does the Ghost stay in play attached to the Hireling for the rest of the game?

Good question. Yes, I'm pretty sure this would be the same situation, because Ghost actually did play Hireling twice. The first time, Hireling's ability was not resolved, but it was still played. (We already know that an Enchanted card can still be Royal Carriage'd for its normal ability.)

This would indeed suck. You lose the Ghost for no effect.
Title: Re: Previews #2: Shepherd, Pooka, Cemetery
Post by: luser on October 28, 2017, 02:25:40 am
After games with pooka/cursed gold I would say that most of time cursed gold first two times is no-brainer.
There is always pooka that with massive draw and copper trashing deck could deal with few curses. When game is junker you want witch/cultist with curse as you junk opponent same.
First exception i could think is ambassador war where you want to wait until you are thin, then return curse and regain it with cursed gold. Second are duke slogs etc where you just want reliably hit 5.
Title: Re: Previews #2: Shepherd, Pooka, Cemetery
Post by: gloures on October 28, 2017, 02:28:32 am
Shepherd is becoming one off my favorite cards, its like a crazy mix between Storyteller, Stables and Crossroads, and I just find the weird Engine/Slog hybrid it enables incredibly fun to play
Title: Re: Previews #2: Shepherd, Pooka, Cemetery
Post by: Asper on October 28, 2017, 04:03:15 am
If I Ghost into a Hirleling, does the Ghost stay in play attached to the Hireling for the rest of the game?

Yes, Ghost causes Hireling to be played twice (like Throne Room), so stays in play.

If I Ghost into a Hireling, but the first play of that Hireling results in +1 Card, +1 Action due to an opponent's Enchantress, does the Ghost stay in play attached to the Hireling for the rest of the game?

Good question. Yes, I'm pretty sure this would be the same situation, because Ghost actually did play Hireling twice. The first time, Hireling's ability was not resolved, but it was still played. (We already know that an Enchanted card can still be Royal Carriage'd for its normal ability.)

This would indeed suck. You lose the Ghost for no effect.

I don't think Ghost would stay out. There's nothing to remind you of. But this is a more general rules question. If I throne a Haven, and can set only one card aside, I only need to track one Haven play. Do I discard Throne this turn?
Title: Re: Previews #2: Shepherd, Pooka, Cemetery
Post by: Jeebus on October 28, 2017, 01:47:41 pm
I don't think Ghost would stay out. There's nothing to remind you of. But this is a more general rules question. If I throne a Haven, and can set only one card aside, I only need to track one Haven play. Do I discard Throne this turn?

After the latest Duration rules revision by Donald, The Throne Room + Duration rule is now very simple: Throne Room stays in play as long as the Duration does. That's why Procession never stays out, despite there being something to track. There's no question in this case that the Haven stays out. So then the Throne stays out too.
Title: Re: Previews #2: Shepherd, Pooka, Cemetery
Post by: Cave-o-sapien on October 28, 2017, 01:59:52 pm
My first game with Ghost was awesome: I had an engine that drew itself every turn and multiple buys. As such, my Ghost would often Throne the card I just bought. That's a really nice effect.

Outside of that scenario, it's a lot like Golem and if you're not careful you'll end up throning something you don't want to throne, like that Beggar you bought for some reason.
Title: Re: Previews #2: Shepherd, Pooka, Cemetery
Post by: Deadlock39 on October 28, 2017, 10:12:55 pm
Does Imp stay out if it plays a Duration? Seems like it could make sense either way.

Edit: I guess whatever Herald's rule is would apply here.
Title: Re: Previews #2: Shepherd, Pooka, Cemetery
Post by: LastFootnote on October 28, 2017, 10:19:52 pm
Does Imp stay out if it plays a Duration? Seems like it could make sense either way.

Edit: I guess whatever Herald's rule is would apply here.

No, it doesn't, and neither do Herald or Vassal.
Title: Re: Previews #2: Shepherd, Pooka, Cemetery
Post by: kieranmillar on October 29, 2017, 03:10:43 am
There's another cool facet to Ghost that's easy to not notice in the online implementation. If you draw your deck then buy multiple cards (including at least one action), then when Ghost hunts for an action it will trigger a shuffle containing only the cards you just bought, potentially top-decking them. If all you bought was engine piece action cards, you're guaranteed to have them all of the other actions topdecked for next turn!

Of course this can also result in a chance of cards like Province that you just bought being topdecked which is not so great, but there you go.