Dominion Strategy Forum
Dominion => Dominion General Discussion => Topic started by: Cave-o-sapien on October 19, 2017, 01:38:05 pm
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I've just recently watched some streamed matches for the first time (some of Dan's Online Championship ones) and one thing has struck me:
He plays very deliberately. Now, part of this may be because he is narrating his actions and his decision-making process, but perhaps there's some benefit to that?
I have had this notion that there's an association between being a great player and playing fast, but I increasingly suspect that notion is misguided.
What do you think?
What speed do you play?
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I have had this notion that there's an association between being a great player and playing fast
What? Except for Mic they're all dreadfully slow.
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I have had this notion that there's an association between being a great player and playing fast
What? Except for Mic they're all dreadfully slow.
Like I said, I don't watch streams, so I'm limited to first-hand experience. I think as you "climb the ranks" you do see a positive correlation between skill and speed, because a lot of inexperienced players are slow, and a lot of experienced players are fast (maybe recklessly so?). But I suspect there is an inflection point somewhere near the top 100 or so, where play becomes more deliberate.
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That must make me an expert!
But that's playing IRL. I haven't played very much online. I honestly don't think I've played and Dominion at all in the last year.
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I have had this notion that there's an association between being a great player and playing fast
What? Except for Mic they're all dreadfully slow.
I always watch his videos at half-speed, to catch all the nuances.
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Really? I watch all of everyone's Dominion videos at double speed, since they're so slow........
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Stay tuned for my next thread: "How carefully/slowly do you watch Dominion videos?"
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Go back to some old AI (the person, not the computer) games for some slow games. I can't find the link quickly, but there was that one game that lasted an hour I believe
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I remember watching a gkrieg league match back in the days of MF where the game lasted over an hour and was very close, and then one of them lost connection and the game was gone for good.
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I have had this notion that there's an association between being a great player and playing fast
What? Except for Mic they're all dreadfully slow.
I always watch his videos at half-speed, to catch all the nuances.
If you do this and play the audio backwards, my coughs reveal the coordinates of a long hidden treasure.
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I think it's more important to spot when your speed of play is a symptom of something else going wrong. For instance, if you start getting angry at a problem instead of solving the problem then your play will probably speed up too much. If you get lost in thought about something you may start forgetting other things you've deduced about the kingdom.
Play at the speed you enjoy.
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I have had this notion that there's an association between being a great player and playing fast
What? Except for Mic they're all dreadfully slow.
I always watch his videos at half-speed, to catch all the nuances.
If you do this and play the audio backwards, my coughs reveal the coordinates of a long hidden treasure.
all those times u said "i don't know if treasure trove is right here" u secretly meant THE TREASURE TROVE IS RIGHT HERE
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There is no competetive advantage in playing fast. Sure, you might enjoy yourself more, but it has to be obvious to anyone that playing more slowly and thinking through several scenarios can't be worse than going with your first intuition (of course there are cases where you talk yourself out of the optimal play, but that's not the fault of thinking, but of thinking wrongly).
The problem is that there are very few people who have the tools to think about these things productively and the marginal value is often pretty small compared to the intuition of a player with similar skill. That said, I think that methodical approach has the biggest chance rise the skill ceiling of the dominion community, especially if the trend continues that we get more and more control of our decks.
edit: Personally, I also play pretty fast most of the time, but I think I'm wrong about it :)
Also, the correct speed to watch dominion videos is 1.25
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I have had this notion that there's an association between being a great player and playing fast, but I increasingly suspect that notion is misguided.
This fallacy may derive from the observation of inexperienced players taking extra time to read cards carefully, contemplating plays an advanced player would deem obviously bad, or slowing solving a sequence of actions they are unfamiliar with. On the other hand, those players tend to build simpler decks that involve less complex decision-making (half-engines, engines that green too early, or with sub-optimal payload, is what I see most often).
With experienced players, these things often proceed automatically, especially in real life games against new players, with cards from sets they've been long familiar with. With an equal opponent, and both players playing to win, they will likely take longer for their decisions to gain that small edge over the other they need to win, or exploit their mistakes.
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Inexperienced players: Very slow
Novice players: A little slow
Intermediate players: Fast
Veteran players: Slightly less fast, usually
Expert players in high stakes games: Somewhat fast, but with some EXTREMELY slow parts at critical junctures. If the board is complex, this could be slow for the entire game.
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I'm very methodical. I take 3 minutes and 59 seconds per click, approx.
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There is no competitive advantage in playing fast.
Sure there is: if you play twice as fast, you can win twice as many games. (-8
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There is no competetive advantage in playing fast.
Sure there is. You give your opponent less time to think.
(Well, it works in chess. I don't know if it works in Dominion.)
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I don't play half as slowly half as well as I should like; and I lose playing half as slowly half as well as I deserve.
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Inexperienced players: Very slow
Novice players: A little slow
Intermediate players: Fast
Veteran players: Slightly less fast, usually
Expert players in high stakes games: Somewhat fast, but with some EXTREMELY slow parts at critical junctures. If the board is complex, this could be slow for the entire game.
4p Tournament game, one player took about 3 to 4 minutes to decide on what to do. He apologized, but his "time per turn" ratio was still very good, and we were about halfway through (about 7 Colonies left). He had 26 coins, +5 Buys, NO Copper in play (so Grand Markets were also an option), so that's something *I* would like to think not in haste as well.
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With cards I know I usually play as fast as I possibly can, while averaging 1-2 undo requests per game due to misclicks.
My blacklist has roughly 160 people on it (not exaggerating, I just counted)
I don't mind people who occasionally take long turns for tricky stuff, but if you're only playing about 1 card every 3 seconds we won't be playing again.
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Wow, that's pretty harsh. I takes me about that long just to move my mouse. I'm guessing that wither we have not played or I'm on your blacklist (not that I mind).
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I definitely would never play a game that quickly. But I guess the "serious" players are more focused on the game, while I use it as a way to relax. Rarely would I be doing zero other things at the same time.
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I've reached that tipping point where I'm starting to slow way down.
Even cards that only do one thing now make me hesitate. Will I be triggering a reshuffle I don't want? Will I be drawing key actions dead and making them skip the shuffle? Even if my engine is drawing deck, can I build up enough actions to play a gainer first and then draw cards? Should I use this sifter early to draw key components, or use it late to set up the next hand with extra draw components? And then there's the buy phase.
I just played a few games where certain turns did leave me thinking longer than I used to. I skipped playing a Hunting Grounds because I knew my Champion was still in the deck and I didn't want to skip it. I had a deck-drawing engine and kept hesitating to figure out if there was an action left in my deck I wanted to Ghost at the end of my turn rather than draw it and waste the Ghost. Just playing actions/draw/actions/draw/actions/draw/payload is no longer good enough.
In the 7-colonies-left game above, $26 coin is actually pretty tricky. Three GMs only gets you to $32, one lousy coin shy of triple-Colony. So, do you have enough draw for three GMs and a Copper (ick?) Two GMs and a Colony gives you a $30 for double-Colony/Province turns to finish out, which seems like a resonable compromise, since two Colonies and nothing is committing to full greening now and possibly squandering the leftover $4 each turn. It might be necessary to scroll up in the log and read the opponent's play carefully in order to decide how the rest of the game will play out. I've thought about it now for several minutes and I wasn't even playing. It also sounds like the state of the piles could make a big difference in that game.