Dominion Strategy Forum
Dominion => Puzzles and Challenges => Topic started by: BaruMonkey on February 16, 2012, 02:09:15 pm
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A friend posed (a version of) this question to me, and I have a couple ideas, but I want to hear what you all think:
Setup: In a 2-player game, one player starts with 7 coppers and 3 estates, and the other starts with 50 copies of any single card. The challenge is to come up with:
A) What card that is,
B) A kingdom in which it will usually win, AND
C) A kingdom in which it will usually lose.
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A) Duchy
B) Any Kingdom without alt VPs
C) Some heavy goons engine kingdom.
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If you want a non-basic answer,
A)Quarry
B)A game with gardens, silk road, or duke, particularly a weak one.
C)A KC-Militia-Masq pin.
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A) Grand Market
B) Any kingdom
C) No kingdom
edit: Was the point of this to come up with a balanced starting point? If so I failed.
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If you want a non-basic answer,
A)Quarry
B)A game with gardens, silk road, or duke, particularly a weak one.
C)A KC-Militia-Masq pin.
I don't think it would win with the pin board -- It starts with 50 quarries, so it won't see any of those cards that it buys until turn 11, and even then they won't come up together.
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A) Grand Market
B) Any kingdom
C) No kingdom
edit: Was the point of this to come up with a balanced starting point? If so I failed.
I'm not sure if "balanced" is necessary. Actually, I'm asking for 2 boards, one unbalanced for and one unbalanced against the "sea of X" deck. "No kingdom" is not a valid answer ;)
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A friend posed (a version of) this question to me, and I have a couple ideas, but I want to hear what you all think:
Setup: In a 2-player game, one player starts with 7 coppers and 3 estates, and the other starts with 50 copies of any single card. The challenge is to come up with:
A) What card that is,
B) A kingdom in which it will usually win, AND
C) A kingdom in which it will usually lose.
I just realized that B and C are ambiguous. Do you mean kingdoms in which the "sea of X" will win/lose or kingdoms in which the normal player will win/lose?
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If you want a non-basic answer,
A)Quarry
B)A game with gardens, silk road, or duke, particularly a weak one.
C)A KC-Militia-Masq pin.
I don't think it would win with the pin board -- It starts with 50 quarries, so it won't see any of those cards that it buys until turn 11, and even then they won't come up together.
Yes, that's the point.
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I just realized that B and C are ambiguous. Do you mean kingdoms in which the "sea of X" will win/lose or kingdoms in which the normal player will win/lose?
Isn't that synonymous, since when one wins the other loses? Let me try to explain in a bit more detail, in case it is ambiguous...
Set up one game in which:
- One player starts with exactly 7 coppers and 3 estates, and the other player starts with exactly 50 copies of any one card of your choice and no other cards.
- There are 10 kingdom cards available, of your choice.
- The player who started with exactly 7 coppers and 3 estates will win more than 50% of the time.
Then, set up one game in which:
- One player starts with exactly 7 coppers and 3 estates, and the other player starts with exactly 50 copies of the same card as the one chosen above.
- There are 10 (probably different) kingdom cards available, of your choice.
- The player who started with exactly 7 coppers and 3 estates will lose more than 50% of the time.
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I think what WW meant was that the 50 Quarries would win the Gardens/SR/Duke game and lose the pin game. He ordered them backwards from what I did, but your wording was ambiguous in the question as which one was which. Though I don't know why they have to be quarries, coppers or talismans would work just as well.
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I think what WW meant was that the 50 Quarries would win the Gardens/SR/Duke game and lose the pin game. He ordered them backwards from what I did, but your wording was ambiguous in the question as which one was which. Though I don't know why they have to be quarries, coppers or talismans would work just as well.
I think Talismans might empty the board too quickly to set up the Masq pin, although Quarry could be replaced by copper.
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I think what WW meant was that the 50 Quarries would win the Gardens/SR/Duke game and lose the pin game. He ordered them backwards from what I did, but your wording was ambiguous in the question as which one was which. Though I don't know why they have to be quarries, coppers or talismans would work just as well.
Yeah, I get it now. I got them backwards because he mentioned quarries, which would allow it to buy any single action whenever it wants.
So, just thinking through what he actually meant... it buys an alt victory card (or duchy or estate) every turn, ending with 3 piles without ever gaining more than 1 card per turn. That would take 8+8+8=24 turns to end the game. I guess if there's a particularly crappy board, the "normal" player wouldn't be able to match it on points.
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I think what WW meant was that the 50 Quarries would win the Gardens/SR/Duke game and lose the pin game. He ordered them backwards from what I did, but your wording was ambiguous in the question as which one was which. Though I don't know why they have to be quarries, coppers or talismans would work just as well.
Coppers are a basic card. The point of my post was to make it be not a basic card, because, well, it's a lot easier with the 'basics'.
Talismans DON'T work as well, as you can end the game in around 8 turns (6 to empty kingdom piles, 2 to buy enough VP). Ok, I guess you need cheap enough piles available, so you can designed some constrained kingdom where this won't win, but it will be difficult.
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So, just thinking through what he actually meant... it buys an alt victory card (or duchy or estate) every turn, ending with 3 piles without ever gaining more than 1 card per turn. That would take 8+8+8=24 turns to end the game. I guess if there's a particularly crappy board, the "normal" player wouldn't be able to match it on points.
Duchy/Duke will be enough points to overcome, as will duchy/SR, as will 6+ point gardens. You need something pretty strong (eh, maybe just colonies on a decent board) to overcome that.
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I think what WW meant was that the 50 Quarries would win the Gardens/SR/Duke game and lose the pin game. He ordered them backwards from what I did, but your wording was ambiguous in the question as which one was which. Though I don't know why they have to be quarries, coppers or talismans would work just as well.
Yeah, I get it now. I got them backwards because he mentioned quarries, which would allow it to buy any single action whenever it wants.
So, just thinking through what he actually meant... it buys an alt victory card (or duchy or estate) every turn, ending with 3 piles without ever gaining more than 1 card per turn. That would take 8+8+8=24 turns to end the game. I guess if there's a particularly crappy board, the "normal" player wouldn't be able to match it on points.
Except by turn 11-12 I will have 7 duchies and 4 dukes which is enough to overcome all 8 provinces. So it doesn't even need to be a crappy board. Just nothing super powered. After that I can take all the time i need to drain piles.
EDIT: What WW said.
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Can the bishop do it? You get 3 VP a turn, so the opponent must be able to get all eight provinces in <= 16 turns, but is aided in doing so by your bishop. I think big money might be able to do this with the trashing help, in which case this is a non-solution, but not sure. (The bishop player might also buy coppers, not clear if that makes his strategy any better. Presumably he still bishops bishops every turn on his second shuffle, occasionally picking up estates? If the game isn't over by his third shuffle, he wins anyway.)
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Minion?
Buy a plus buy card with your first hand, then cycle entire deck each turn.
Market would also be another easy answer
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Minion?
Buy a plus buy card with your first hand, then cycle entire deck each turn.
Market would also be another easy answer
But what boards exist where they would lose? That's the challenge :)
btw, two of my thoughts (for the 50-card deck) were Great Hall and Pawn. I haven't really thought much about them yet, though. I don't think 7c3e can beat 50 pawns, but there may be a chance.
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Aahh, right i getcha
So, 50 nobles. 100 vps with chance to draw entire deck each time, so in eight turns it can buy a province each turn putting a clock on it.
So you'd need a colony kingdom. And a fast enough board to buy them all out, so would need bridge i wold expect.
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Minion?
Buy a plus buy card with your first hand, then cycle entire deck each turn.
Market would also be another easy answer
But what boards exist where they would lose? That's the challenge :)
btw, two of my thoughts (for the 50-card deck) were Great Hall and Pawn. I haven't really thought much about them yet, though. I don't think 7c3e can beat 50 pawns, but there may be a chance.
Great hall can probably beat most kingdoms. It's basically like starting with nothing and 50vp chips, you just need to avoid terminal draw. It would probably lose to the KC/Masq/Goons pin.
I can't think of any way 50 pawns could lose to 7c3e. You can always use the pawn for +card/action so you can get to your opening purchases right away and you can in the early game at least match any buy the copper/estate guy makes and then guarantee a play of it next turn.
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I can't think of any way 50 pawns could lose to 7c3e.
This was the original challenge my friend posed to me. My best guess so far (besides "no, it's impossible") has been something with Mountebank (perhaps with a 5/2 opening guaranteed), since the pawns wouldn't be able to block subsequent attacks like the smaller deck would.
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I can't think of any way 50 pawns could lose to 7c3e.
This was the original challenge my friend posed to me. My best guess so far (besides "no, it's impossible") has been something with Mountebank (perhaps with a 5/2 opening guaranteed), since the pawns wouldn't be able to block subsequent attacks like the smaller deck would.
Pawn guy can also open MB and while he can't block the attack while the other guy can, he is still guaranteed to play it starting turn 2 and probably 7 or 8 turns afterwards (until 3 hits of the opponents MB, and even then still fairly likely to play it most turns). You can expect at least 3 of those to hit.
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I can't think of any way 50 pawns could lose to 7c3e.
This was the original challenge my friend posed to me. My best guess so far (besides "no, it's impossible") has been something with Mountebank (perhaps with a 5/2 opening guaranteed), since the pawns wouldn't be able to block subsequent attacks like the smaller deck would.
Pawns cycle through to get mountebank turn one then play it every turn following..
On the other hand, if we allow outside circumstances the 50 pawn player would resign on isotropic after giving his hand carpal tunnel by turn 6...
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What about 50 mountebanks:
Probably wins on a board where bm is dominant (end game in 18 turns with 8 estates and 10 of some $2 action)
Loses on most boards, especially boards with chapel/some power combo
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Treasure Map sounds fun.
Wins most kingdoms where Provinces are necessary, but would it lose to HT/Duke? Workshop/SR/Gardens?
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Treasure Map sounds fun.
Wins most kingdoms where Provinces are necessary, but would it lose to HT/Duke? Workshop/SR/Gardens?
Wins pretty much everywhere. Turn 1: trash 2 maps, 4 golds ON TOP OF DECK (this is massively huge). Turn 2:Buy Province. 16 turns for 8 provinces is pretty quick - there's no way that other stuff can compete. Now, can it be beat? Sure, you get the right kind of sick lock and it's going down. But you need something pretty degenerate.
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Pirate Ship
Beats strategies which needs treasures
Loses to strategies which don't.
Adventurer
Wins with fool's gold and gardens or dukes.
Loses to almost any kingdom without Fool's gold.
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Aahh, right i getcha
So, 50 nobles. 100 vps with chance to draw entire deck each time, so in eight turns it can buy a province each turn putting a clock on it.
So you'd need a colony kingdom. And a fast enough board to buy them all out, so would need bridge i wold expect.
But if you draw your entire deck its just nobles. It has no money! So you'd need to buy a copper for 3 turns, and then a silver for 2 turns and then a gold. And then you can start buying provinces. Still a 100vp lead is pretty hardcore. So it'll win.
Also is everyone severly overestimating Pawn?????!!!
I can't think of any way 50 pawns could lose to 7c3e.
This was the original challenge my friend posed to me. My best guess so far (besides "no, it's impossible") has been something with Mountebank (perhaps with a 5/2 opening guaranteed), since the pawns wouldn't be able to block subsequent attacks like the smaller deck would.
If you want to cycle through your deck and play all of your pawns you need to play the first 45 as +1 card/+1 action then you can play the last 5 as 4x +$1/+1 action and last one as +$1/+buy. If you have 50 pawns you still only have $5 and 2 buys. So its good but i'm sure its beatable.
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I can't think of any way 50 pawns could lose to 7c3e.
This was the original challenge my friend posed to me. My best guess so far (besides "no, it's impossible") has been something with Mountebank (perhaps with a 5/2 opening guaranteed), since the pawns wouldn't be able to block subsequent attacks like the smaller deck would.
If you want to cycle through your deck and play all of your pawns you need to play the first 45 as +1 card/+1 action then you can play the last 5 as 4x +$1/+1 action and last one as +$1/+buy. If you have 50 pawns you still only have $5 and 2 buys. So its good but i'm sure its beatable.
Except $5 and 2 buys is strictly superior to whatever the copper/estate player starts with. Then you are guaranteed to see whatever it is you bought the next turn and the next and the next because you can use any pawn you dont need for money as a cantrip.
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I realize that it doesn't really work for the challenge but...
The thought of 50 stashes amuses me. Pretty early, we can tell where the other cards are because they have the 'normal' back instead of the stash back. Huzzah!
(ok, yes I realize you'll have 8 provinces well before you reshuffle, but it's still humourous.)
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I realize that it doesn't really work for the challenge but...
The thought of 50 stashes amuses me. Pretty early, we can tell where the other cards are because they have the 'normal' back instead of the stash back. Huzzah!
(ok, yes I realize you'll have 8 provinces well before you reshuffle, but it's still humourous.)
There are quite a few cards which I think would be funny but either too strong or weak to consider: Ambassador, Haven, Library, Fairgrounds or Dukes, Envoy, or my favorite - Stables
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I can't think of any way 50 pawns could lose to 7c3e.
This was the original challenge my friend posed to me. My best guess so far (besides "no, it's impossible") has been something with Mountebank (perhaps with a 5/2 opening guaranteed), since the pawns wouldn't be able to block subsequent attacks like the smaller deck would.
If you want to cycle through your deck and play all of your pawns you need to play the first 45 as +1 card/+1 action then you can play the last 5 as 4x +$1/+1 action and last one as +$1/+buy. If you have 50 pawns you still only have $5 and 2 buys. So its good but i'm sure its beatable.
Except $5 and 2 buys is strictly superior to whatever the copper/estate player starts with. Then you are guaranteed to see whatever it is you bought the next turn and the next and the next because you can use any pawn you dont need for money as a cantrip.
Its definitely better than standard opening but mountbank would pose it serious troubles. Play mountbank 3 times and now there are 6 dead cards in your pawn stack so you're no longer guaranteed of finding your desired cards. If you draw those curses and copper before your awesome cards you've just played 20 pawns to pick up 3 curses and 2 coppers.
Strong but not unbeatable.
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I can't think of any way 50 pawns could lose to 7c3e.
This was the original challenge my friend posed to me. My best guess so far (besides "no, it's impossible") has been something with Mountebank (perhaps with a 5/2 opening guaranteed), since the pawns wouldn't be able to block subsequent attacks like the smaller deck would.
If you want to cycle through your deck and play all of your pawns you need to play the first 45 as +1 card/+1 action then you can play the last 5 as 4x +$1/+1 action and last one as +$1/+buy. If you have 50 pawns you still only have $5 and 2 buys. So its good but i'm sure its beatable.
Except $5 and 2 buys is strictly superior to whatever the copper/estate player starts with. Then you are guaranteed to see whatever it is you bought the next turn and the next and the next because you can use any pawn you dont need for money as a cantrip.
Its definitely better than standard opening but mountbank would pose it serious troubles. Play mountbank 3 times and now there are 6 dead cards in your pawn stack so you're no longer guaranteed of finding your desired cards. If you draw those curses and copper before your awesome cards you've just played 20 pawns to pick up 3 curses and 2 coppers.
Strong but not unbeatable.
Except, as we said, you get mountebank T1 and play it turn 2, 3, 4, 5.. after you get 5+ cards pawn don't even harm you, just act as if they dont exist..
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Except the pawn player is guaranteed to buy it turn 1 and play it at least turns 2-9 or so before theres even the chance of the other playing it 3 times, and that's worst case scenario. All of those won't hit but enough will. There's simply no way the other player can compete with that.
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Except the pawn player is guaranteed to buy it turn 1 and play it at least turns 2-9 or so before theres even the chance of the other playing it 3 times, and that's worst case scenario. All of those won't hit but enough will. There's simply no way the other player can compete with that.
Yeah you're right I suppose. Its a guaranteed first turn $5 plus guaranteed playing it forever.....so there can't be a strong $5 attack on the board....
Oooh, Ambassador. It doesn't matter that the pawn player can play it first, all they can fling at their opponent is pawns.
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Oooh, Ambassador. It doesn't matter that the pawn player can play it first, all they can fling at their opponent is pawns.
Until you Ambassador anything to them, at which point they fling it right back at you :-/
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Oooh, Ambassador. It doesn't matter that the pawn player can play it first, all they can fling at their opponent is pawns.
Until you Ambassador anything to them, at which point they fling it right back at you :-/
But that doesn't get them anywhere, just back to where they started and it takes them 1 dead card and an 1 action to send it back, so thats only $3 from their pawns on that turn. If they want to advance past $5/turn they need to just ignore your Ambassadoring and buy something useful.
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Ambassador won't slow down the pawn player much anyway. Turns 1/2 can be buying silver/gold. Then you can pretty much keep buying Gold as long as you feel like, even with the influx of coppers/estates. Then whenever you're ready, start buying provinces. Ambassador is already pretty weak against big money and the pawn deck is pretty much a super accelerated big money deck if you want it to be.
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Except the pawn player is guaranteed to buy it turn 1 and play it at least turns 2-9 or so before theres even the chance of the other playing it 3 times, and that's worst case scenario. All of those won't hit but enough will. There's simply no way the other player can compete with that.
Yeah you're right I suppose. Its a guaranteed first turn $5 plus guaranteed playing it forever.....so there can't be a strong $5 attack on the board....
Oooh, Ambassador. It doesn't matter that the pawn player can play it first, all they can fling at their opponent is pawns.
Unless they buy a curse with one of their +buys... I'm not sure if pawn is possible.
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Answering the OP, I can think of 2 ideas, though I've not fleshed them out with particulars:
1. 50 Develops:
a) loses on a board with no 4's (and no 2's: 10 estates for the first 10 turns, or waste 'em all...yay!)
b) probably easy enough to make a board with some decent synergies that it can dominate.
2. 50 Upgrades:
b) This would quickly take a board with Border Village and Duchess. (ooh 2 turn win :) )
a) I think the easiest way to make it likely to lose is the Ironworks-Island-Great Hall board, also with no 6's and 7's. After the first 5 turns you have 25 upgrades, and all the golds. Of course some lucky gold colisions could get you in the VPs, but you're upgrades are gonna be clogging things for at least a few more turns before you can reliably get good stuff going on.
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Answering the OP, I can think of 2 ideas, though I've not fleshed them out with particulars:
1. 50 Develops:
a) loses on a board with no 4's (and no 2's: 10 estates for the first 10 turns, or waste 'em all...yay!)
b) probably easy enough to make a board with some decent synergies that it can dominate.
Silk Road
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1. 50 hamlets:
a). Any isotropic board; your opponent dies of boredom.
b). Live; ~50 pawns.
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1. 50 hamlets:
a). Any isotropic board; your opponent dies of boredom.
b). Live; ~50 pawns.
This was the first that came to mind to me. A serious winning kingdom would be if peddler is available. First turn, get 6 buys and buy 6 peddlers. Next turn, buy the rest of the peddlers. Now you have $10 guaranteed for several turns and as many buys as you like, definitely enough to win.
On a big money board, it's going to lose horribly.
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1. 50 hamlets:
a). Any isotropic board; your opponent dies of boredom.
b). Live; ~50 pawns.
Much wore than 50 pawns. These provide no buying power.
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1. 50 hamlets:
a). Any isotropic board; your opponent dies of boredom.
b). Live; ~50 pawns.
Much wore than 50 pawns. These provide no buying power.
That's a good thing, though; Pawn failed the test (since it always wins), and blueblimp showed that Hamlet can both win and lose!
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I think that Duke could potentially be interesting. If the player can get to even 1-2 Duchies, the game might be over. However, throw a Ghost Ship or Torturer and things get interesting. I would imagine it would almost always lose? Not entirely sure, though.
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It seems impossible for the 50Duke player to win, actually. You'll have to spend at least 22 turns buying Coppers/$2 cards unless you get very lucky, by which point your opponent probably has all the Duchies easily.
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It seems impossible for the 50Duke player to win, actually. You'll have to spend at least 22 turns buying Coppers/$2 cards unless you get very lucky, by which point your opponent probably has all the Duchies easily.
What if Crossroads is available? If the Duke player can snag one, that will speed up deck cycling by a ton.
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It seems impossible for the 50Duke player to win, actually. You'll have to spend at least 22 turns buying Coppers/$2 cards unless you get very lucky, by which point your opponent probably has all the Duchies easily.
What if Crossroads is available? If the Duke player can snag one, that will speed up deck cycling by a ton.
You nevertheless need 10 turns until you can buy the XR and and on average 5 turns until you see it. 15 turns for 8 Duchies seems still trivial, especially if XR is available. And even if you get 1 Duchy, you have 53VPs, which is not enough against 7 Duchies and 8 Provinces. So you should at least get 2 Duchies.
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Does this work?
1) Coppers
2) Duchies and Dukes kingdom
3) Kingdom with Chapel, King's Court and Goons.
I figure it'll be at least ten turns before the copper deck stops drawing $5
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1. 50 hamlets:
a). Any isotropic board; your opponent dies of boredom.
b). Live; ~50 pawns.
Much wore than 50 pawns. These provide no buying power.
Yeah, but there may be some situations with attacks on board that you might be able to use the +actions.
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Trying to think of non +card, +action and came up with Golem
50 Golem
- Wins with Action cards with +coin (and +Action helpful)
- Loses to Boards with no +coin
How about Jester?
That way you're cycling your deck a bit quick, and can be adding 2 cards to it each?
- Works with 2 cost cards
- Loses to most things
Not, cant make it win
Trader, each turn you are adding 4 silvers to your deck.
So after 10 turns your deck will be 40 traders and 40 silvers. Giving you an average of 5 each hand to buy dutchys
- So would feasibly win on a slow board with Duke
- Loses to fast boards
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Treasure Map sounds fun.
Wins most kingdoms where Provinces are necessary, but would it lose to HT/Duke? Workshop/SR/Gardens?
Wins pretty much everywhere. Turn 1: trash 2 maps, 4 golds ON TOP OF DECK (this is massively huge). Turn 2:Buy Province. 16 turns for 8 provinces is pretty quick - there's no way that other stuff can compete. Now, can it be beat? Sure, you get the right kind of sick lock and it's going down. But you need something pretty degenerate.
Looks like it can be countered with Minions (and some nice draws, since you need minions for discard which makes it a bit harder to get to 5$ the same turn), at least every other turn. After the first reshuffle (which should happen after ~10+ turns), the TM-player has maybe 40 Golds and 30 Treasure Maps in his deck, which is still good, but you still need 3 Gold out of 4 cards to get a Province, which shouldn't happen every turn.
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Treasure Map sounds fun.
Wins most kingdoms where Provinces are necessary, but would it lose to HT/Duke? Workshop/SR/Gardens?
Wins pretty much everywhere. Turn 1: trash 2 maps, 4 golds ON TOP OF DECK (this is massively huge). Turn 2:Buy Province. 16 turns for 8 provinces is pretty quick - there's no way that other stuff can compete. Now, can it be beat? Sure, you get the right kind of sick lock and it's going down. But you need something pretty degenerate.
Looks like it can be countered with Minions (and some nice draws, since you need minions for discard which makes it a bit harder to get to 5$ the same turn), at least every other turn. After the first reshuffle (which should happen after ~10+ turns), the TM-player has maybe 40 Golds and 30 Treasure Maps in his deck, which is still good, but you still need 3 Gold out of 4 cards to get a Province, which shouldn't happen every turn.
Minion still doesn't counter TM...
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Thought of a couple more that should have been pretty obvious:
1. 50 Ironworks:
a) wins on board with Great Hall, Island, and any other action card at $4 or less. (2 turn game ftw!)
b) loses on a board with no action cards under 5...(I think all 8 estates + gameover in 8 turns would give the game to Ironworks, but maybe not since the other player just needs a couple duchies to win against that...so maybe any board without alt. VPs under 4 would take the Ironworks player)
2. 50 Workshops
a) Wins with Gardens, Silk Road, and no +buy/gainers. Gardens will be worth at least provinces by the end, then the Gardens player can take some Silk Roads, which should be good enough for him. Without +buy, the other player should be unable to catch up.
b) loses like ironworks (no actions under 5) trivially. But it probably loses on pretty much any board without Gardens, I mean 10 turns of grabbing some under-$4 cards aren't gonna be able to beat much.
ooh, on the subject of Gainers, I'll bet Feast could work similarly.
(it can get all the duchies in 8 turns, but closing out the game in 26 turns isn't very impressive...so a decent mega-turn, like say native village Bridge could probably take it by buying out the provinces. On the other hand, just like for Workshops, Gardens makes it nearly unbeatable. (add in Duke and you've got a pretty sure thing I think)
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Does this work?
1) Coppers
2) Duchies and Dukes kingdom
3) Kingdom with Chapel, King's Court and Goons.
I figure it'll be at least ten turns before the copper deck stops drawing $5
This would also lose hardcore to any Kingdom with Swindler in it.
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Does this work?
1) Coppers
2) Duchies and Dukes kingdom
3) Kingdom with Chapel, King's Court and Goons.
I figure it'll be at least ten turns before the copper deck stops drawing $5
Yes...
If you want a non-basic answer,
A)Quarry
B)A game with gardens, silk road, or duke, particularly a weak one.
C)A KC-Militia-Masq pin.
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Sea Hag and Fortune Teller would also wreck the all-copper Duke deck.
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Not so sure about sea hag... even if you open with Sea Hag/silver, then get it turn 3, there's still two turns when the copper deck is buying duchies, then one turn not, then one or more turns buying them again, etc. Assuming the copper deck buys silver when it has the curse in hand, I still think it will outpace the sea hag deck in the duchies and dukes race, especially as sea hag isn't speeding the conventional deck towards dukes or duchies.
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Treasure Map sounds fun.
Wins most kingdoms where Provinces are necessary, but would it lose to HT/Duke? Workshop/SR/Gardens?
Wins pretty much everywhere. Turn 1: trash 2 maps, 4 golds ON TOP OF DECK (this is massively huge). Turn 2:Buy Province. 16 turns for 8 provinces is pretty quick - there's no way that other stuff can compete. Now, can it be beat? Sure, you get the right kind of sick lock and it's going down. But you need something pretty degenerate.
Looks like it can be countered with Minions (and some nice draws, since you need minions for discard which makes it a bit harder to get to 5$ the same turn), at least every other turn. After the first reshuffle (which should happen after ~10+ turns), the TM-player has maybe 40 Golds and 30 Treasure Maps in his deck, which is still good, but you still need 3 Gold out of 4 cards to get a Province, which shouldn't happen every turn.
Minion still doesn't counter TM...
What? ...
- A: Play Treasure Maps, gaining Gold on top of the deck and drawing them for the next turn hand
- B: Play Minion to force the opponent to discard the Gold and get a hand with 4 Treasure Maps
- A: Play Treasure Maps ...
I don't see what's wrong with that in this situation.
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Treasure Map sounds fun.
Wins most kingdoms where Provinces are necessary, but would it lose to HT/Duke? Workshop/SR/Gardens?
Wins pretty much everywhere. Turn 1: trash 2 maps, 4 golds ON TOP OF DECK (this is massively huge). Turn 2:Buy Province. 16 turns for 8 provinces is pretty quick - there's no way that other stuff can compete. Now, can it be beat? Sure, you get the right kind of sick lock and it's going down. But you need something pretty degenerate.
Looks like it can be countered with Minions (and some nice draws, since you need minions for discard which makes it a bit harder to get to 5$ the same turn), at least every other turn. After the first reshuffle (which should happen after ~10+ turns), the TM-player has maybe 40 Golds and 30 Treasure Maps in his deck, which is still good, but you still need 3 Gold out of 4 cards to get a Province, which shouldn't happen every turn.
Minion still doesn't counter TM...
What? ...
- A: Play Treasure Maps, gaining Gold on top of the deck and drawing them for the next turn hand
- B: Play Minion to force the opponent to discard the Gold and get a hand with 4 Treasure Maps
- A: Play Treasure Maps ...
I don't see what's wrong with that in this situation.
I think the main trouble will be that it would take a while for the minions to kick in, and by that point it would be too late to catch up.
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Does this work?
1) Coppers
2) Duchies and Dukes kingdom
3) Kingdom with Chapel, King's Court and Goons.
I figure it'll be at least ten turns before the copper deck stops drawing $5
This would also lose hardcore to any Kingdom with Swindler in it.
I think if Gardens is there, 50 Copper should survive Swindler. 4 coppers + 1 curse is still enough to buy a Gardens, and by the end of the game, each of those Gardens is going to be worth at least a Province.
Edit: This can even be simulated. With the bots below, 50 Copper/Gardens wins 90.5/8.5 over Double Swindler on Ultimate Simulation.
Further Edit: Actually even 50 Copper/Duke wins 64.4/32.5 over Double Swindler. I included a bad $5 (Saboteur) in the kingdom so that the duchies/dukes can be swindled into non-VP.
50 Copper/Gardens bot:
<player name="50 Copper/Gardens"
author="blueblimp"
description="Starting with 50 copper is pretty good for a gardens rush.">
<type name="SingleCard"/>
<type name="Fun"/>
<type name="Province"/>
<type name="Bot"/>
<type name="TwoPlayer"/>
<type name="UserCreated"/>
<start_state>
<hand contents=""/>
<discard contents=""/>
<drawdeck contents="50 Copper" shuffle="true"/>
</start_state>
<buy name="Gardens"/>
<buy name="Duchy"/>
<buy name="Estate"/>
</player>
Double Swindler bot (does better than single Swindler):
<player name="Double Swindler"
author="blueblimp"
description="An attempted counter to the 50 Copper/Gardens strategy.">
<type name="SingleCard"/>
<type name="Fun"/>
<type name="Province"/>
<type name="Attacking"/>
<type name="Bot"/>
<type name="TwoPlayer"/>
<type name="UserCreated"/>
<buy name="Province">
<condition>
<left type="getTotalMoney"/>
<operator type="greaterThan" />
<right type="constant" attribute="18.0"/>
</condition>
</buy>
<buy name="Duchy">
<condition>
<left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Province"/>
<operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
<right type="constant" attribute="4.0"/>
</condition>
</buy>
<buy name="Estate">
<condition>
<left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Province"/>
<operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
<right type="constant" attribute="2.0"/>
</condition>
</buy>
<buy name="Gold"/>
<buy name="Duchy">
<condition>
<left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Province"/>
<operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
<right type="constant" attribute="6.0"/>
</condition>
</buy>
<buy name="Swindler">
<condition>
<left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Swindler"/>
<operator type="smallerThan" />
<right type="constant" attribute="2.0"/>
</condition>
</buy>
<buy name="Silver"/>
</player>
50 Coppers/Duke bot:
<player name="50 Copper/Duke"
author="blueblimp"
description="Starting with 50 copper is pretty good for a duke rush.XXXXTo make things fair against Swindler, ensure there is a bad $5 on the board (e.g. Saboteur).">
<type name="SingleCard"/>
<type name="Fun"/>
<type name="Province"/>
<type name="Bot"/>
<type name="TwoPlayer"/>
<type name="UserCreated"/>
<start_state>
<hand contents=""/>
<discard contents=""/>
<drawdeck contents="50 Copper" shuffle="true"/>
</start_state>
<board contents="Saboteur" bane="null"/>
<buy name="Duchy"/>
<buy name="Duke"/>
<buy name="Estate"/>
</player>
Unfortunately, trying to start with 50 Dukes crashes the simulator. =) (It seems to not like starting with more than 8.)
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Treasure Map sounds fun.
Wins most kingdoms where Provinces are necessary, but would it lose to HT/Duke? Workshop/SR/Gardens?
Wins pretty much everywhere. Turn 1: trash 2 maps, 4 golds ON TOP OF DECK (this is massively huge). Turn 2:Buy Province. 16 turns for 8 provinces is pretty quick - there's no way that other stuff can compete. Now, can it be beat? Sure, you get the right kind of sick lock and it's going down. But you need something pretty degenerate.
Looks like it can be countered with Minions (and some nice draws, since you need minions for discard which makes it a bit harder to get to 5$ the same turn), at least every other turn. After the first reshuffle (which should happen after ~10+ turns), the TM-player has maybe 40 Golds and 30 Treasure Maps in his deck, which is still good, but you still need 3 Gold out of 4 cards to get a Province, which shouldn't happen every turn.
Minion still doesn't counter TM...
What? ...
- A: Play Treasure Maps, gaining Gold on top of the deck and drawing them for the next turn hand
- B: Play Minion to force the opponent to discard the Gold and get a hand with 4 Treasure Maps
- A: Play Treasure Maps ...
I don't see what's wrong with that in this situation.
I think the main trouble will be that it would take a while for the minions to kick in, and by that point it would be too late to catch up.
That's probably not what he meant, but anyway, let it take 5 turns, by which you may have 2 or 3 minions, to set up, and play a minion for discard the first time at turn 6. Your opponent at this point already has...2 Provinces. Wow.
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50 Remakes.
Loses on a board with Duchy the only $5; after your tenth turn, you will have 30 Remakes, 8 Duchies, and up to 10 Coppers if you want them, and you still won't be able to do much.
Wins with Duke and any other $5; you can three-pile on your twelfth turn without any help, and even if your opponent buys a few Duchies, you'll have most of the Duchies, all the Dukes, and end the game sooner.
Wins even faster with Ill-Gotten Gains; ten IGG, ten Curses, and eight Duchies will be gone in nine turns at most.
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1. apprentice? wins with sea hag on board: can't play her till turn five, but then reliably plays her every turn and trashes any curses he gets. loses to jack, chancellor/stash, etc on bigger boards.
2. oasis? usually wins, say with minion on the board, seems doomed with militia on board.
3. The trader idea is cool. Pedantic nitpick: it can actually gain five silvers a turn for the first eight turns (at which point the silver pile is empty), which is slightly preferable to four for the first ten because it chokes off the opponent's access to the silver pile faster.
At this point, can the trader player win? If there's gardens with absolutely no helper, the trader player may be able to buy a gardens or two (but no more) which should be worth at least 7 or 8. With tunnels on the board to cover the bad turns, the trader player might could pull it off. But it's a stretch (islands seem too strong for the non-trader player three-piling before the trader player has a chance).
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1. apprentice? wins with sea hag on board: can't play her till turn five, but then reliably plays her every turn and trashes any curses he gets. loses to jack, chancellor/stash, etc on bigger boards.
Why can't you play the hag till turn 5? Apprentice can just keep eating though as much deck as you need each turn. Should be playable every turn
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You need to buy the Sea Hag first.
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You need to buy the Sea Hag first.
Oh right I keep forgetting you need money first
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Simulations show that letting the 50 Copper/Quarry Duke deck buy Silvers with <5 until the game is close to ending ups its winrate a ton, such that it wrecks every built-in BM/X except Ghost Ship, and beats most other engines and rushes. Of course, the built-in bots don't expect the opponent to be able to buy Duchies on Turn 1, so don't read too much into this.
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1. colonies
a. Every game
b. heavy cursing and VP tokens, maybe
:)
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I've been thinking a bit about Adventurer with this... can it ever win? I'm thinking of a FG/Venture kingdom it might just compete in.
Turn 1+2: Buy copper
Turn 3+4: Buy FG
Turn 5-7: Buy Venture with $5, FG with $4 or less.
Turn 8+: Buy Gardens with $4, FG with less?
I'm not really sure, and it doesn't seem like it'll empty another pile quickly enough, but assuming there're no good Garden enablers, it might beat the standard opening?
Adventurer should easily lose any board without FG and Gardens, I think.
Another card I've consdered was Goons. The strategy basically being, buy out the Native villages, then the Hamlets, then the Crossroads. Should be pretty quick and leave you with easily 100+vps, generally winning an otherwise dull board. OTOH a game with no $2's and perhaps I dunno, Watchtower/JoAT/Library will probably be a loss for the Goons... but it's hard to say.
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Loan seems almost balanced, winning and losing in a wide range of circumstances.
1) Loan
2) Kingdoms with strong non-terminals, alternate VP, or treasures costing up to $5. IGG, Hunting Party (though be careful about reshuffles), Duke, maybe Venture, Laboratory, or Cache
3) Kingdoms where there's a strong engine, good big money support (Smithy), or compelling $6+ cards
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would this work?
a) posession
b) colony + heavy ambassador
c) duke/duchy