Dominion Strategy Forum
Dominion => Dominion General Discussion => Topic started by: JW on September 11, 2017, 04:51:26 pm
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Clearly this poll only applies to people who own 1e Base and/or 1e Intrigue IRL. I am curious what everyone does in this regard. Any secret Secret Chamber admirers?
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The strictly true answer is I don't have enough card sleeves for both my 1e cards and their replacements, so I've retired all of them. For my own enjoyment of the game, I don't miss any of these cards. For teaching purposes I'd be tempted to include a couple of them for a game or two for a lesson on critical card evaluation (i.e. when is Woodcutter better than a Silver? What would it take for Adventurer to be better than a Gold?), but there are other ways to make those points.
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Back when I only had Base and Seaside and played quite a few Base only IRL games, before 2nd Editions came out, I got fed up with boring games with lots of dead cards and decided to remove Spy, Thief, Woodcutter, Chancellor, Adventurer, Feast and Bureaucrat (Mine was a candidate as well but apparently people like it). I managed to convince my friends that this made the game far more enjoyable. Now that I have both 1st ed Base and 1st ed Intrigue I don't use any of the removed cards (and I didn't put Bureaucrat back in the box either).
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I only have 1st ed. base irl. Haven't played in a while, but I'm partial to all of them but Woodcutter. That's just too plain honestly, surprised it sees so much use. I mean I guess it isn't especially weak among removed cards. But why would I use it? Messenger is that and Chancellor plus the 'gifting' ability, and it's like I use that all the time. At least Thief can be made interesting, w/ good treasure you'd want to steal and not just trash(Bandit.) Spy can be nice w/ Jester and the like. Nothing special ofc but good enough.
Removed cards seem more traditional or something. Why I might want to use Feast when really there isn't any reason to.
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I don't mind Secret Chamber
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I love alt vp and find great hall innocuous, so I've kept it in. I enjoy the surprise and risk factor of tribute so I've kept it. I still have coppersmith, but I honestly don't know why. And I still keep thief around because my nephews are obsessed with it. Also, I pretty much never play competitively irl, so weak cards get used more often.
The card I'm most happy is gone is spy. It was just unbearable to sit and watch people play it over and over only for it to have almost no effect on anything.
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They sit in the back of one of my storage binders, but I never use them.
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I use Woodcutter and Feast. They're decent enough.
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In theory, I still use Coppersmith, but it hasn't come up since it was removed.
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Great Hall was always a good acquisition near end game with an extra buy and three coins left. I still keep it in.
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I got rid of them all (gave away my first edition sets) and honestly I haven't missed any of them one bit.
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I still have spy.
Yeah, it's bad, and it's time consuming, but my friend's daughter thinks it's hilarious to tell all the adults around the table what to do
And by extension, we all love watching her do it. When she actually hits a good card that does make a difference, we'll loudly bemoan the loss for her benefit so she can cackle with glee!
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All 12. The fact that they're not in second edition makes no difference at all to me using them.
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All of them. Why should I not ? I don't own 2ed, not going to exclude cards just because they were replaced in it.
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All of them. Why should I not ? I don't own 2ed, not going to exclude cards just because they were replaced in it.
I only play with a small subset of cards IRL, because carrying my entire Dominion collection around just isn't very practical. I change the setup sometimes (i.e. never because I don't play very often anyway) though.
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I own Base 1e, but don't play with them. The fewer cards to choose from makes up for the more interesting cards that I have.
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The only one I kept was Coppersmith, and it has replaced Woodcutter when I teach new players. By far my least favorite 1E card removed was Secret Chamber, so I haven't been playing with that one for a long time.
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I kept Saboteur and Coppersmith for being the most interesting. Using binders, I had room for 2 cards to be saved - though would have been better to keep 1 base 1 Intrigue. I would like Woodcutter and Thief as well but not enough to stick them in some other set.
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I love alt vp and find great hall innocuous, so I've kept it in. I enjoy the surprise and risk factor of tribute so I've kept it. I still have coppersmith, but I honestly don't know why. And I still keep thief around because my nephews are obsessed with it. Also, I pretty much never play competitively irl, so weak cards get used more often.
For one of my groups, there would be a rush for it, so consider that an empty pile
The card I'm most happy is gone is spy. It was just unbearable to sit and watch people play it over and over only for it to have almost no effect on anything.
I usually don't figure out the combos first, but did manage to surprise everyone when I told them to leave their Gold on top. Then came the Thief ;)
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Feast was cool in a necromancer game.
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With Thief around, that would REALLY muck with the Heirlooms. For both better AND for worse. And it's not like you just avoid it since you start off with it, but you can still lose it as it was apart of you to start!
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I actually have used them.... as proxies for fan cards.
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Woodcutter. It's weak, but it's a simple card that doesn't take too contrived of a board to serve a meaningful role.
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I have all the expansions/2nd editions and include all the banned cards. I don't have the problems/issues with any of the cards that others have.
We draw random and deal with what we get. Any card, good or bad, can be useless/useful in any given set. Every kingdom we draw is fun to play. Some kingdoms are just tougher to figure out, which is what it's about, right?
No veto. No exclusions. No whining about likes and dislikes.
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I have all the expansions/2nd editions and include all the banned cards. I don't have the problems/issues with any of the cards that others have.
We draw random and deal with what we get. Any card, good or bad, can be useless/useful in any given set. Every kingdom we draw is fun to play. Some kingdoms are just tougher to figure out, which is what it's about, right?
No veto. No exclusions. No whining about likes and dislikes.
I would argue that weak cards make for kingdoms that are easier to figure out, but this was discussed ad nauseam when second edition came out so maybe I should have kept my mouth shut.
I only miss those cards for sentimental reasons, and have used them all as proxies for fan cards.
I wish something could be done for the rest of Dominion, but I am afraid that the only solution is to houserule the extreme outliers in power level, and to endure them online. Looking forward to ban lists online.
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I only own second edition, but I'm familiar with the removed cards from watching Dominion videos. This means I can't really answer the question as stated, but I can answer a related question: "which cards, if any, are you sad about not getting to play with?"
My generic answer is "any card with a unique ability".
Messenger (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Messenger), Nomad Camp (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Nomad_Camp) and Scavenger (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Scavenger) replace Woodcutter (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Woodcutter) and Chancellor (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Chancellor) just fine; I don't miss any of those. Scrying Pool (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Scrying_Pool) has the Spy (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Spy) attack. Adventurer (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Adventurer), meh, usually Smithy (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Smithy) does the same job better.
I've used Feast (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Feast) and Thief (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Thief) in puzzles, but they're fully available in that context. I don't think I'm missing out on anything but not being able to play them in real games. Bandit (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Bandit) is a fine replacement for Thief, and while Feast isn't exactly replaced by Artisan (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Artisan) or Altar (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Altar) because you can't open with them, I still don't really feel like I'm missing out.
Mill (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Mill) replaces Great Hall (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Great_Hall) perfectly and Patrol (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Patrol) replaces Scout (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Scout) except as the butt of jokes—and in that context, Scout is a favorite of mint (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Mine).
I think Secret Chamber (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Secret_Chamber) has something unique—a reaction that interacts interestingly with top-of-deck attacks, e.g. Thief, Swindler (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Swindler), Knights, even Ghost Ship (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Ghost_Ship). But the on-play ability is sufficiently weak that you rarely go for it, so the thing that's lost wasn't very much there to begin with. And the effect, meh, okay, it's no huge deal. I don't think I'll miss it.
Next up on the scale of interest level is Tribute (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Tribute). It does something unique, though the thing it does is sufficiently unreliable that I would hesitate to build my deck around it. As the only village in an engine mirror, it has the interesting characteristic that my greening makes your deck less reliable. Eh, you know, I think it's more fun playing an engine with a reliable village. It had something unique, but of low value.
Penultimately there is Saboteur (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Saboteur). "Swingy and often not great" sums up my impression quite well, but on some boards it can decide the game. Something of moderate value might be lost here. I'm very much open the possibility that I would think something else if I had actually played with it.
Lastly, Coppersmith (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Coppersmith). I think it only plays in engines, and I would typically rather trash my Copper and buy Gold than make my Copper worth more. But if you can't trash your Copper yet you can still build a viable engine, Coppersmith is a terminal +$7. That's more than Platinum, for $4. And it can be throned (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Throne_Room). That's pretty cool.
So out of the 12 removed cards, I think I'm missing out on two of them, and the value of those two cards is highly contextual and kingdom-sensitive, and I'm not going to buy 1E just for those two cards and the smaller font and the 'he' over 'they', and I'm not going to buy both 1E and 2E, so... I'm happy with my decision, even though it's only almost strictly better.
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Hi all, I would like to share my findings since the 2nd Ed.
I recently managed to buy 1st Ed dominion & intrigue, and already had the 2nd ed update packs. I find the combos of cards "removed" and new "replacements" actually work in fun weird ways.
So last night, I had a game with Secret Chamber and Diplomat, with attacks Saboteur and Replace. That led to a lot of card-shifting craziness. React with SC, then draw Diplomat, resolve SC's reaction, then react with Diplomat. It actually worked as a semi-strategy. Also Coppersmith was in play, but after it outlived its initial usefulness, we both had problems trying to trash it with Replace and never getting that combo, despite Secret Passage and Nobles for card draw. I still don't think it's a bad card, just one that has only early game utility.
Also, last week i was teaching some new players, and decided to use Bureaucrat and Spy, as well as Moat, to teach them the mechanics of attacks and reactions while using relatively weak attacks. I also threw in Merchant for good measure because it pairs well with Bureaucrat.
I just don't like the idea of completely removing cards, even if they are weak. Everyone was a beginner once, and even Woodcutter and Feast can shine in some circumstances.
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My best Dominion-friend who don't follow "the scene" anymore didn't understand why I cringed when coppersmith showed up last time we played. "It's retired actually" didn't make any sense to him and actually I agree more and more. Most of them didn't have to go, the new cards do their thing better but eh, a side from Scout they still function good enough to shine whenever possible. Can we bare Transmute we can bare the retired folks..
I really miss Great Hall. I just do. Mill is.. too fancy. I must admit Courier is awesome in a way Tribute never was but I miss it still from time to time. Agree though that Spy wasn't just bad but also extremely annoying, other than that I wish the cards could return to Dominion Online in some way or another.
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I wish the cards could return to Dominion Online in some way or another.
I don't play online, but if I were to I would definitely like to have those cards available. Make it default-off opt-in, put a big warning message in front of the cards saying "these cards suck, you should only use them for reasons of nostalgia" or whatever, but man, why not make them available? I get that implementing new cards is work, but I recall Stef saying that most cards from... uh, some recent expansion, was simply transcribing the text on the cards into whatever framework they've built.
I don't think the removed cards interact with players' decks or other cards or the rules in weird ways, the ways Possession (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Possession) and Inheritance (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Inheritance) and Stash (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Stash) do.
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Speaking of Coppersmith being the star of the show (with the aid of some good draw and +buy):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SpBLvs508jg
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I use them all, but not with the newer sets. With real newbs and/or children, I play with the complete Norwegian collection (Dominion 1st ed., Intrigue 1st ed., Prosperity, Governor, Stash, Walled Village). The card pool is so small that I wouldn’t remove 2/13 of them. When I play with gamers or in my regular Dominion groups, I play with all my English cards, which includes all promos and every set, but only the 2nd ed. versions of Dominion and Intrigue (297 kingdom cards). This allows me to play with all published cards from time to time. At work I play with a third card pool. There we use the 1st editions, but we use the update packs (and we’ve removed the infamous 12).
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The only card I really miss is Coppersmith. That card was actually interesting, and not only because of its unique ability. I really liked how it could be useful, but not in the way you initially think. When you first see it, you go "my opening Coppers become Silvers? I'm getting that right away!" But then you realize that it actually totally sucks in the beginning because it takes up space in your hand and doesn't produce any $ by itself. And then you discover when you should get it: When you don't trash your Coppers for whatever reason, but can still draw your whole deck. And then it becomes a powerhouse, and really satisfying to use.
I guess I sort of miss Woodcutter, only because cutting it meant losing a source of +Buy. In general a terminal Silver with a Buy just seemed like a basic concept that had to exist. In the end, though, you only ever bought it if there was no other +Buy, and then you bought it grudgingly. I guess that's enough to make it not worthy of existence.
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The only card I really miss is Coppersmith. That card was actually interesting, and not only because of its unique ability. I really liked how it could be useful, but not in the way you initially think. When you first see it, you go "my opening Coppers become Silvers? I'm getting that right away!" But then you realize that it actually totally sucks in the beginning because it takes up space in your hand and doesn't produce any $ by itself. And then you discover when you should get it: When you don't trash your Coppers for whatever reason, but can still draw your whole deck. And then it becomes a powerhouse, and really satisfying to use.
If nothing else, it was still satisfying for us to observe, and those doing it... Coppersmith, then play 4 Coppers, for a Province.
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I continue to use all of them. I have all of the expansions and base, and I use the randomizers to gradually go through all of the cards. These may not be the greatest cards, but they are still Dominion cards. That makes them valuable to me.
Sometimes they get bought and sometimes they don’t, but that is true of many cards based on what the other cards are in the kingdom. So I don’t mind seeing them in a game. In fact, the only one that rarely if ever gets bought in our games is Saboteur. Attacks have their place in Dominion, but we really don’t care for that one.
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I've been coming back to this thread and re-reading my post.
[TL;DR: I like Coppersmith (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Coppersmith), maybe Saboteur (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Saboteur), a teensy tiny bit Tribute (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Tribute) and Secret Chamber (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Secret_Chamber) but very meh...]
Locusts (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Locusts) provides roughly the same attack as Saboteur (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Saboteur). You can't steer the Hex deck really well so you can't build a strategy around it, but it does let you anti-Rebuild (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Rebuild) your opponent's Province (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Province)s.
Also, hey, there's Giant (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Giant) which just trashes almost the same set of cards, and there's Swindler (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Swindler) which turns cards into worse cards, and with Highway (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Highway) and Giant you can still trash Provinces.
So I'm totally not going to feel sad that I don't get to play with Saboteur; the similar-enough replacements are there.
Also, Counting House (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Counting_House) makes your coppers better, though in a different way and in different situations than Coppersmith. Bank (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Bank) makes your coppers better just as well as Coppersmith, although it also makes all your other treasures worth $1 more each (effectively). You can King's Court (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/King's_Court) your Coppersmiths where you can only Crown (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Crown) your Banks, but you'll have a tough time finding that I care about that difference. Bank doesn't say "the meek shall inherit the earth" or whatever the same way Coppersmith does. Meh.
So I'm down to being sad about approximately 0 out of 12 cards. Only Tribute (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Tribute) and Secret Chamber (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Secret_Chamber) are still even considerations, and... yeah, no, I just don't care.
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Also, Counting House (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Counting_House) makes your coppers better, though in a different way and in different situations than Coppersmith. Bank (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Bank) makes your coppers better just as well as Coppersmith, although it also makes all your other treasures worth $1 more each (effectively). You can King's Court (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/King's_Court) your Coppersmiths where you can only Crown (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Crown) your Banks, but you'll have a tough time finding that I care about that difference. Bank doesn't say "the meek shall inherit the earth" or whatever the same way Coppersmith does. Meh.
So I'm down to being sad about approximately 0 out of 12 cards. Only Tribute (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Tribute) and Secret Chamber (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Secret_Chamber) are still even considerations, and... yeah, no, I just don't care.
Wow, you're totally right about Bank; I hadn't even thought of that. That definitely makes me feel better about losing Coppersmith.
Storeroom is a perfect replacement for Secret Chamber, so I don't care about that.
Tribute was unique, but I never found it fun anyway.
Actually I think the one card I'm finding myself missing now is Thief. Bandit just trashes instead of outright stealing, so it doesn't feel the same. Noble Brigand steals, but only Silvers and Golds which is boring. What made Thief cool was the tiny fraction of games where there were alt-treasures worth stealing. Rogue can steal anything, but it does so slowly and often doesn't work, so, yeah, Thief was special.
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Storeroom is a perfect replacement for Secret Chamber, so I don't care about that.
I disagree about Secret Chamber! The fun part about Secret Chamber is using it to stymie an opponent's Swindler (or Knight, etc.); none of the replacements replicate that.
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Woodcutter - weak as hell
Chancellor - weak as hell
* Without these two cards, the top part of Messenger could have easily cost (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/3/32/Coin3.png/16px-Coin3.png) on its own and it would have been fine.
Feast - garbage
Spy - analysis-paralysis garbage
Thief - garbage apart from 4-player Gardens games
Adventurer - hot garbage
Secret Chamber - garbage
Great Hall - pointless, really
Coppersmith - like, okay? but not really doing much, honestly
Scout - garbage
Saboteur - weak and not fun to be on the receiving end of
Tribute - swingy garbage
Yeah, I don't miss any of these.
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Bank (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Bank) makes [...] your other treasures worth $1 more each (effectively).
Wow, you're totally right about Bank.
The on-play ability of Coppersmith (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Coppersmith) is approximately "+$x, where x is the number of Coppers you play later this turn", except you can't determine the value of x when you need to know it. Also, the interactions with Counterfeit (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Counterfeit) and Storyteller (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Storyteller) are subtly wrong with my phrasing. If you allow an even sloppier approximation, it's "Reveal your hand. +$1 for each Copper revealed".
A crazy comparison just occurs to me: Coppersmith vs. Secret Chamber (or any cards-into-money effect)—in both cases, if you plan to use this as a payload you'll be drawing lots of cards that you either won't play or will play for a very small per-card effect, and that's usually not great; Silver and Gold both offer much greater per-card payload value. The cool thing about Coppersmith that's not true about Secret Chamber is that you can re-use the same card for multiple Coppersmiths but not for multiple Secret Chambers, since you only "reveal" the Copper and don't discard it. (You're then required to play that Copper for the approximation to work, and it's wrong in many ways, but you know, in practice it's pretty close.)
You could phrase Bank as "for the remainder of this turn, when you play a treasure, you first get +(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/f/f7/Coin1.png/16px-Coin1.png)". You would want to play it before rather than after your other treasures, and playing a treasure vs. having one in play is slightly different, but it'd be pretty much the same card if done that way.
Likewise, the text of Duke (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Duke) might as well be "Each of your Duchies is worth an additional 1 (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/9/92/VP.png/16px-VP.png)". Here it really doesn't matter, since you score all your cards simultaneously—there are no timing problems it could have, and nothing is dependent on the VP value of your cards the way Storyteller is dependent on the money value of your cards.
The general principle is that <X does 1 thing per Y> and <X does 'each Y does 1 more thing'> are equivalent (typically, approximately, [edgecases-edgecaseseverywhere.jpg]).