Dominion Strategy Forum
Dominion => Dominion General Discussion => Topic started by: Cave-o-sapien on August 10, 2017, 07:04:26 pm
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I've seen a few ideas thrown around for what these could be in various threads, but I thought it might be nice to have one spot for them.
What we know: they replace your starting Coppers. That's it.
Do we think they will all be treasures? Or will they follow the pattern of Shelters and be a mixture of card types? How many uniquely named Heirlooms will there be?
Assuming they are treasures, could we have some worth $0 and some worth $2?
What will their costs be?
Could they be Victory/Treasure cards with a set collection bonus? I.e. if you keep the set of 7 until the end of the game, it's worth X points. How big would X need to be to forego trashing? Sort of like Fountain except you can't re-acquire them.
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They're all tomatoes.
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We don't know whether Heirlooms replace all of the starting Coppers, or just some of them. We don't know if they'll all be identical or all unique, or something in-between. I think 7 uniques would be a bit much, making it less accessible, and longer to set up IRL.
My speculation is that they're coppers with on-trash bonuses/penalties. That way, like shelters they don't mess with the opening, but can have a minor effect later on. Also, if Nocturne truly is a sequel to Dark Ages, trashing is kind of a theme there. If they're worth VP, that's kind of like a trashing penalty.
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My guess is you don't replace them all. If there are 7, I would guess suggested play is to randomize them separately. Probably they don't all relate to trashing, because sometimes you don't have that.
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I think they will replace all starting coppers. Could be wrong though.
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A specific idea that occurred to me the other day:
Gizmo (Action Heirloom, Cost $0)
+1 Action
You may discard a card that is not a Treasure. If you do, +$2.
Considered in isolation, if you replaced just one Copper with a Gizmo, it would do interesting things to the distribution of possible amounts to spend on turns 1 and 2.
I've no doubt Donald will come up with something much more interesting, but that at least illustrates the kind of space I'm expecting them to occupy.
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I predict one heirloom will be an attack. However, likely very weak. Maybe one will be worth a -vp but give you $2 or something.
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I'm predicting they won't all be treasures. My current guess is 2 action cards of some kind, 1 night card, 4 treasures. At least 4 differently named cards.
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How about:
Heirloom:
$0
Treasure/Action
$1
+1 card
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Surely just "Treasure"? Why would you ever play that as an Action?
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Surely just "Treasure"? Why would you ever play that as an Action?
What if you draw another Action? Assume you have +Action already. It's similar to why Crown / +Card token might be played in the Action phase with only Treasures in hand.
I don't think it will be this card for many reasons though.
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A specific idea that occurred to me the other day:
Gizmo (Action Heirloom, Cost $0)
+1 Action
You may discard a card that is not a Treasure. If you do, +$2.
Considered in isolation, if you replaced just one Copper with a Gizmo, it would do interesting things to the distribution of possible amounts to spend on turns 1 and 2.
I've no doubt Donald will come up with something much more interesting, but that at least illustrates the kind of space I'm expecting them to occupy.
This seems unfairly swingy. Without other things that mess with the opening, you either get (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/2/2a/Coin4.png/16px-Coin4.png)/(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/2/2a/Coin4.png/16px-Coin4.png), (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/3/32/Coin3.png/16px-Coin3.png)/(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/7/7d/Coin5.png/16px-Coin5.png), (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/2/2a/Coin4.png/16px-Coin4.png)/(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/3/3d/Coin2.png/16px-Coin2.png), or (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/7/7d/Coin5.png/16px-Coin5.png)/(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/3/32/Coin3.png/16px-Coin3.png). Super unfair to the player who opens (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/2/2a/Coin4.png/16px-Coin4.png)/(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/3/3d/Coin2.png/16px-Coin2.png).
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Sure, it would suck in isolation. And I mainly intended it as an example of something only a bit better than Copper, the kind of thing an Heirloom might be.
If really going with that as one Heirloom, the others would have to balance it.
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10 Heirlooms, randomize 7 for each game to replace starting coppers:
Chancellor
Woodcutter
Feast
Spy
Adventurer
Secret Chamber
Great Hall
Scout
Saboteur
Tribute
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I think it's unlikely they'll replace all 7 coppers. Having 7 unique cards instead of coppers seems kind of crazy (and it would make Moneylender and Miser basically useless, if that matters.) It also might be annoying to set up. You'd have to make sure each player has all of them.
I'm thinking there might be a lot of different Heirlooms, but only one or two are randomly selected to replace a copper. I also think it's unlikely they'll be actions, because that would make them basically ruins in a lot of games. They'll probably be a bit better, but not much; we're talking cards that cost $1, tops. The main point is that if they're actions, they can be drawn dead or collide badly with each other or other cards. Your deck could become noticeably worse, something that I don't think Donald would want.
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I think it's unlikely they'll replace all 7 coppers. [...] It also might be annoying to set up. You'd have to make sure each player has all of them.
I'm not saying I believe they'll replace all 7 Coppers. But if they did, a fairly obvious hack would be to print the expansion symbol in each of the Adventures player colours. Then you just give the heirlooms with a blue symbol to the blue player, etc.
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Is Heirloom a card type or card name?
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Is Heirloom a card type or card name?
Unconfirmed.
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How about...
Heirloom, Treasure-Victory, Cost 0, Not in the supply
1 Coin
21VP
You want to think twice before trashing your family heirlooms...
Some immediate flaws:
- Swindler becomes even swingier (maybe you could work around it with 'when you trash this you may put it in your hand').
- My chapel hit 3 estates, yours hit... oh, 4 heirlooms, how interesting. But maybe that doesn't matter because chapel becomes a much weaker opening all round if there are 7 heirlooms and you don't want to trash them.
- Moneylender, Cutpurse etc
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How about...
Heirloom, Treasure-Victory, Cost 0, Not in the supply
1 Coin
21VP
You want to think twice before trashing your family heirlooms...
Some immediate flaws:
- Swindler becomes even swingier (maybe you could work around it with 'when you trash this you may put it in your hand').
- My chapel hit 3 estates, yours hit... oh, 4 heirlooms, how interesting. But maybe that doesn't matter because chapel becomes a much weaker opening all round if there are 7 heirlooms and you don't want to trash them.
- Moneylender, Cutpurse etc
4 provinces to make up for trashing a copper... I'm not saying you've guessed wrong, but...
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I doubt Heirlooms will replace all the starting Coppers. On the wiki, it says that shelters "make Baron a sad panda," but imagine how many sad pandas there would be if there were no starting Coppers- counting house, apothecary, moneylender, etc.
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I doubt Heirlooms will replace all the starting Coppers. On the wiki, it says that shelters "make Baron a sad panda," but imagine how many sad pandas there would be if there were no starting Coppers- counting house, apothecary, moneylender, etc.
Another possibility is that Heirlooms themselves could generate Coppers to keep the pandas happy.
4 provinces to make up for trashing a copper... I'm not saying you've guessed wrong, but...
Yeh, maybe 21VP is a bit much... got carried away with the triangular numbers.
But I'd want to err on the generous side so that you want to keep them in most games where they appear. Any game where you end up trashing the Heirlooms, they may just as well have been Coppers.
So here's the question: how many VP would (non-supply) Coppers have to be worth in order that you'd want to keep them on about 80% of boards?
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Any game where you end up trashing the Heirlooms, they may just as well have been Coppers.
You almost always want to trash shelters, except maybe Necropolis. Does that mean they might just as well have been Estates? No, I'm almost positive that Heirlooms will be pieces of junk you'll want to get rid of. They don't have to change the game that drastically to still be interesting.
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Not sure if it makes any sense, but what if some gave more than 1 coin, but also gained curse(s) on play? Like the heirlooms are worth a lot, but you get cursed for using them.
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Not sure if it makes any sense, but what if some gave more than 1 coin, but also gained curse(s) on play? Like the heirlooms are worth a lot, but you get cursed for using them.
Curses are bad. Like really really bad. A self-cursing treasure would almost have to trash another card AND give you a ton of money.
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So... what would be a fair price for Counterfeit if "gain a Curse. If you do," was inserted after "When you play this,"?
$0? Give or take?
I think there's scope for heirlooms, whatever they are, however many there are, whether they're all the same or of various kinds, to be cards which pair significant benefits with significant penalties. The further down that route they go, the more they'll shake the game up.
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I'm predicting they won't all be treasures. My current guess is 2 action cards of some kind, 1 night card, 4 treasures. At least 4 differently named cards.
Taking a page off Shelters, of which only 1 of them ended up being Victory card to replace the Estates that were (and even then, barely, as the Overgrown Estate is worth 0pts), it's quite conceivable we'll see that here as well with the Coppers.
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So... what would be a fair price for Counterfeit if "gain a Curse. If you do," was inserted after "When you play this,"?
$0? Give or take?
Replacing your starting Coppers with Curses (and + $3 total that turn) is still really bad. Maybe it would be worth playing it to buy a power $5, but I'm not sure you would do it otherwise. That being said...as an optional ability on a card you want to trash anyway...that might actually work out.
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How many people in this forum (aside from donaldx) already know exactly what the Heirlooms are?
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I think Stef and Phillip know. On the livestream for the League finals, Phillip said something about meeting with Stef to discuss Nocturne implementation, which I assume means that Donald has revealed the cards (or card-shaped things) to the Dominion Online people.
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How many people in this forum (aside from donaldx) already know exactly what the Heirlooms are?
I think Stef and Phillip know. On the livestream for the League finals, Phillip said something about meeting with Stef to discuss Nocturne implementation, which I assume means that Donald has revealed the cards (or card-shaped things) to the Dominion Online people.
Yes, they know. I have to imagine they are currently implementing Nocturne or have already done so, but I do not know with certainty.
I know what Heirlooms are, of course. All the playtesters and most lapsed/former playtesters know, though I won't list them here since some seem not to want to be outed. I don't know why, but there it is.
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I think Stef and Phillip know. On the livestream for the League finals, Phillip said something about meeting with Stef to discuss Nocturne implementation, which I assume means that Donald has revealed the cards (or card-shaped things) to the Dominion Online people.
Yes, they know. I have to imagine they are currently implementing Nocturne or have already done so, but I do not know with certainty.
I know what Heirlooms are, of course. All the other playtesters and most lapsed/former playtesters know, though I won't list them here since some seem not to want to be outed. I don't know why, but there it is.
Thanks for that.
Obviously, it takes some fun out of speculation threads when people hide what information they know in order to A) "guess" correctly or B) mess with people.
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I think Stef and Phillip know. On the livestream for the League finals, Phillip said something about meeting with Stef to discuss Nocturne implementation, which I assume means that Donald has revealed the cards (or card-shaped things) to the Dominion Online people.
but I do not know with certainty.
I do!
http://forum.shuffleit.nl/index.php?topic=2036.0
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Obviously, it takes some fun out of speculation threads when people hide what information they know in order to A) "guess" correctly or B) mess with people.
I don't think that really happens, though. I have not seen "secret" testers pretending to guess in the past, they mostly just keep quiet. I'm not sure what you qualify as messing with people, but I don't think that happens either.
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Obviously, it takes some fun out of speculation threads when people hide what information they know in order to A) "guess" correctly or B) mess with people.
I don't think that really happens, though. I have not seen "secret" testers pretending to guess in the past, they mostly just keep quiet. I'm not sure what you qualify as messing with people, but I don't think that happens either.
I'm not suggesting that HAS happened here, but it happens in other domains all the time. Really I just wanted anyone participating in this thread to be aware that some people know the answers already.
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All the playtesters and most lapsed/former playtesters know
Might one infer from the "lapsed/former" bit that Heirlooms are an idea that has been sitting around for a while, waiting for its day to come?
Or do we have to wait until the secret history?
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Might one infer from the "lapsed/former" bit that Heirlooms are an idea that has been sitting around for a while, waiting for its day to come?
Or do we have to wait until the secret history?
You can infer whatever you like! It's a free country internet.
But yes, I'd wait for the secret history if I were you.
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How many people in this forum (aside from donaldx) already know exactly what the Heirlooms are?
13 thus far....
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?action=post;quote=711950;topic=17474.0;last_msg=719228
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Some ideas that haven't been mentioned:
A heirloom could allow each play to chose a card available from the supply up to $x to replace a copper in their starting hand. No extra printing cost and a nice interesting option if there were multiple good options out there.
Also I don't see why heirlooms would have to be restricted to $0 - $2 cost cards. If both players get the same thing or same choices available to them then maybe there could be a $6 card in there? Why not? It would make for some more interesting remodel options at the start game.
Bring on Nocture! I'm pumped.
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A thought--should "Heirloom" be somehow similar to "Inheritance"? But maybe more temporary?
Heirloom (Action-Treasure, $0)
If it's your Action phase, play this as if it were an Action card from the supply costing $3 or less, then trash this. If it's your Buy phase, $1.
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Heirlooms could be just like Coppers early in the game but different later. For example
+1$
Count your discard pile. If there are at least 15 cards in it, +1$
or
+1$
+1$ per unique cost among Action cards you have in play
or
+1$
+1$ for each Province missing from the supply
The first one seems most reasonable albeit possibly annoying to play with, the second is probably way too strong and swingy since it might be worth 3$ on turn 3 or might be worth 1$. The third one needs a better wording but +9/-1 per Province in the supply doesn't work for multiplayer games; with that kind of wording you would first have to differentiate between the number of players in the game, then give out coins accordingly, then deduct coins for Provinces. These examples are more to illustrate the general directions in which I think Heirlooms might be going than real guesses.
Like Shelters, these designs only rarely change the opening, which means you don't get T1/T2 blowouts like you would with some of the designs suggested here. They might not all be like this, these are sort of the Necropolises among Heirlooms. If the trashing theme returns, other Heirlooms could be more like Overgrown Estate and Hovel (could even have the exact same text).
As to the question of how many Heirlooms there will be, the set has 500 cards and 33 Kingdom piles, with 0-1 Victory piles that would be 363-365 cards. The remaining 135-137 could be:
- Boons
- Hexes
- Travellers
- Events
- Heirlooms
If Fate and Doom are card types, this could mean that Boons and Hexes are in the supply, just like Looters put Ruins in the supply but cards adding Spoils to the game do not have an extra type. Hopefully there aren't 60 of each, otherwise there won't be much room for anything else.
I'm mentioning Travellers because this would be in line with Dark Ages' upgrading theme (Mercenary/Madman). Two Traveller lines would add 40 cards.
Given that Donald X said he's pretty much out of ideas when it comes to Events, most of the Empires events relied on the tokens in that set and that Nocturne will not have any tokens, there may or may not be some Events but there probably won't be a lot.
If we assume 0 Victory piles, 30 each for Boons/Hexes, 2 Traveller lines and 0 Events, that leaves us just 2 cards short of being able to fit in 42 Heirlooms, i.e. 7 per player for 6 players. If there are just upgrade piles à la Merc/Madman (or no upgrading) there would be enough room for all the Heirlooms. Which means they might replace all your Coppers, although this would of course make Moneylender/Miser quite sad, sadder even than Baron with Shelters. I'm leaning towards not all Coppers being replaced.
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Heirlooms could be just like Coppers early in the game but different later. For example
+1$
Count your discard pile. If there are at least 15 cards in it, +1$
or
+1$
+1$ per unique cost among Action cards you have in play
or
+1$
+1$ for each Province missing from the supply
I like these because they make heirlooms improve with age if you keep them, very thematic.
I don't like these because they're so slow to calculate.
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Heirlooms could be just like Coppers early in the game but different later. For example
+1$
Count your discard pile. If there are at least 15 cards in it, +1$
or
+1$
+1$ per unique cost among Action cards you have in play
or
+1$
+1$ for each Province missing from the supply
The great thing about these is that for the first few turns (usually), they still give +$1, like Copper. When shelters came in, they didn't change the buying power first two turns much, so I would imagine Heirlooms will do the same.
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I like that idea! I think it makes sense if they can never be worth too much, like the first one. Bringing the other two in line would give you
+$1
+$1 if you have at least 3 Action cards in play
and
+$1
+$1 if a Province has been gained this game
You could use a Trade Route token to track the second one.
Other ideas:
+$1
+$1 per empty supply pile
+$1
You may reveal a Curse in your hand for +$1.
+$1
When you buy a Victory card, you may trash this from play.
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I’ve thought about these for a while, and since they’re heirlooms, it should probably be beneficial for you to keep them all. Maybe they’re even the first cards you’re not able to trash? If one of the heirlooms is a title, like Royal, it would make sense not to be able to trash it. We’re all supposed to be queens or kings, right?
They may even have some synergy with Inheritance, but how would that work? These are clearly made as copper equivalents to shelters. Which of course means that you’ll have six full sets, however many each player will get. If they replace all your starting coppers, which I assume they will, there’ll be 42 of them in total. I also think each set will be seven unique cards. Some may even be a duration like Hireling, or something you’ll first get into your deck as soon as you’ve gained a province.
I really don’t know, but I think we may be thinking a bit too narrowly. The new cards don’t need to work like the ones we already have. I’m pretty sure DXV has come up with some really clever ideas, just like when he recently added both events and landmarks. Who can honestly say they foresaw that? I certainly didn’t. Why shouldn’t he be able to surprise us with another brand new mechanic? Actually, I think he will.
Since Nocturne will introduce the new Night cards, my guess is that some of the heirlooms will be night cards (and one of them can even be a self-curser). Say you inherit something like Necronomicon. You can’t get rid of it, and it’s definitely cursed. I’m guessing it could be the first treasure/curse card. Both giving some monetary value (probably only 1 to not get wildly different starts at the beginnng of the game) and being a curse. Come to think of it, being granted a title at birth could really become a curse as well.
My guess is that boons and hexes are simply card names, just like spoils. Fate and doom cards are probably card types, like the looters. So, what can Night cards be? What we know is that they do something after the buy phase. Night cards can be gainers depending on what you draw for your next hand. They might do something with the cards you’re about to clean up. We don’t know if they do something before, during or after clean-up.
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My guess is that boons and hexes are simply card names, just like spoils. Fate and doom cards are probably card types, like the looters.
I was thinking that Fate and Doom might be card-shaped object types instead -- maybe they're like Landmarks, but give out something good/bad based on some condition.
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If all the Heirlooms all have different names, I wonder what they will be?
Clasp, Trinket, Necklace, Memento, Journal, Signet Ring, are some of my predictions.