Dominion Strategy Forum

Dominion => Dominion General Discussion => Topic started by: majiponi on July 18, 2017, 09:00:27 pm

Title: Japanese Tournament raised a few issues
Post by: majiponi on July 18, 2017, 09:00:27 pm
HobbyJapan Game Festival was held on 15 and 16 July 2017.  Many players joined Japanese Dominion Tournament in it.  Mr. Moolong - you know as yudai214 - won in it.  He is going to attend World Championship 2017.

This competition raised some issues.

1.  One player was disqualified due to a cheat on shuffling swapping his hand for his deck.
2.  Four players drew intentionally. (This was a Swiss-system tournament. They all have the same championship points.)

1. is a kind of problem in manners, skills, and rules.  This tournament had few rules dealing with a improper shuffling.  It was up to each player's skills and manners.

2. is a problem in a rule.  Judges didn't disqualify those four players, but added another rule not to propose deals in games.  Is intentional draw allowed in Dominion (up to each championship), or disallowed?


EDIT: The sponsor explained those two matters.  It was not due to a cheating shuffling but a swapping hand why the player was disqualified.

https://hobbyjapan.co.jp/hobbyjapan_game_festival/ruling_hamefestival2017.html
Title: Re: Japanese Tournament raised a few issues
Post by: ConMan on July 18, 2017, 09:47:38 pm
It sounds like it's a problem in the tournament design. You assume that the players will play to win the game in front of them, and not collude with the other players to beat the system, and I did a quick search and it seems like this is not unheard of in, for example, Magic tournaments (such that they actually have a rule prohibiting collusion with other players to improve your joint chances). Unfortunately, I don't know if there's a great way to fix it.
Title: Re: Japanese Tournament raised a few issues
Post by: drsteelhammer on July 18, 2017, 09:53:28 pm
Do not play Swiss system when you're not playing 2-player games. I assumed that it is a requirement.
Title: Re: Japanese Tournament raised a few issues
Post by: DG on July 18, 2017, 10:05:01 pm
This BGG thread seems to be on topic https://boardgamegeek.com/blogpost/1854/swiss-style-multiplayer-games.
Title: Re: Japanese Tournament raised a few issues
Post by: Awaclus on July 19, 2017, 06:02:58 am
Intentional draws are prohibited in Magic now?
Title: Re: Japanese Tournament raised a few issues
Post by: ConMan on July 19, 2017, 07:01:05 pm
Intentional draws are prohibited in Magic now?
My reading, from one result of a very quick Google search, is that while it is legitimate to declare a game a draw, it is not allowed to do so as part of an agreement with your opponent so that both of you can advance.
Title: Re: Japanese Tournament raised a few issues
Post by: Awaclus on July 20, 2017, 04:12:24 am
Intentional draws are prohibited in Magic now?
My reading, from one result of a very quick Google search, is that while it is legitimate to declare a game a draw, it is not allowed to do so as part of an agreement with your opponent so that both of you can advance.

I just checked the most recent tournament rules from Wizards' site and it doesn't say you're not allowed to ID to ensure that you advance, it just prohibits bribery.

Here's the relevant part for the record:
Quote
If a game or match is not completed, players may concede or mutually agree to a draw in that game or match. A
match is considered complete once the result slip is filled out or, if match slips are not being used, a player leaves
the table after game play is finished. Until that point, either player may concede to or draw with the other, though
if the conceding player won a game in the match, the match must be reported as 2-1. Intentional draws are always
reported as 0-0-3.

Players may not agree to a concession or draw in exchange for any reward or incentive. Doing so will be
considered Bribery (see section 5.2).

If a player refuses to play, it is assumed that he or she has conceded the match.
Title: Re: Japanese Tournament raised a few issues
Post by: dedicateddan on July 20, 2017, 05:43:09 am
Intentional draws are prohibited in Magic now?

Intentional draws are allowed and very common in the last 1-2 rounds
Title: Re: Japanese Tournament raised a few issues
Post by: GendoIkari on July 20, 2017, 10:32:56 am
Intentional draws are prohibited in Magic now?
My reading, from one result of a very quick Google search, is that while it is legitimate to declare a game a draw, it is not allowed to do so as part of an agreement with your opponent so that both of you can advance.

I just checked the most recent tournament rules from Wizards' site and it doesn't say you're not allowed to ID to ensure that you advance, it just prohibits bribery.

Here's the relevant part for the record:
Quote
If a game or match is not completed, players may concede or mutually agree to a draw in that game or match. A
match is considered complete once the result slip is filled out or, if match slips are not being used, a player leaves
the table after game play is finished. Until that point, either player may concede to or draw with the other, though
if the conceding player won a game in the match, the match must be reported as 2-1. Intentional draws are always
reported as 0-0-3.

Players may not agree to a concession or draw in exchange for any reward or incentive. Doing so will be
considered Bribery (see section 5.2).

If a player refuses to play, it is assumed that he or she has conceded the match.

A better rules quote to support your point:

Quote
27. Intentional Draw - The DCI Universal Tournament Rules
Players may mutually agree to accept an intentional draw at any time before the match results are submitted. This agreement should not be regarded as a violation of section 41.(41: Cheating - e.g. Collusion to alter the results of a game or match)
Title: Re: Japanese Tournament raised a few issues
Post by: ConMan on July 20, 2017, 07:18:40 pm
A better rules quote to support your point:

Quote
27. Intentional Draw - The DCI Universal Tournament Rules
Players may mutually agree to accept an intentional draw at any time before the match results are submitted. This agreement should not be regarded as a violation of section 41.(41: Cheating - e.g. Collusion to alter the results of a game or match)
Ah. I must have misinterpreted that section on Collusion then.