Dominion Strategy Forum

Dominion => Dominion Articles => Topic started by: luser on May 26, 2017, 08:45:29 am

Title: Combo: Donate-market square.
Post by: luser on May 26, 2017, 08:45:29 am
This simple strategy is stronger than hermit/market square and is usually best thing on board when present. It reliably gets one province/turn from turn 5 and plies them out by turn 12-13 and is immune to most attacks.

Strategy is:

turn 1-2: buy market square.

turn 3: If you are lucky to draw market square buy it and donate, otherwise just donate to trigger market squares. Your deck should contain total 5 coppers+golds.

turn 4: Again buy market squares and donate, you want to repay at least 1 debt this turn. Deck should be only golds and market squares.

turn 5: you have 15 to spend and at most 7 debt, buy one province.

turn 6: If opponent didn't mirror buying province you should be able to play at least 2 market squares to buy province, copper and donate and repay 4-7 debt. With mirror its time to province+duchy+copper.

turn 7+: buy province+duchy+coppers to make province-duchy turns more likely insteod of 12 turns.
Title: Re: Combo: Donate-market square.
Post by: AJD on May 26, 2017, 09:44:02 am
Why are we buying Coppers turns 6–7?
Title: Re: Combo: Donate-market square.
Post by: McGarnacle on May 26, 2017, 10:00:17 am
Funny this just came up in a IRL game yesterday. I got a bunch of Market Squares, then Donated. I played sub-optimally, but I still won by a lot.
Title: Re: Combo: Donate-market square.
Post by: Chris is me on May 26, 2017, 10:26:57 am
Quote from: AJD on May 26, 2017, 09:44:02 am
Why are we buying Coppers turns 6–7?

To trash with Donate immediately after buying them, duh.

Anyhow I think this combo has been talked about on the forums already and is pretty much a lock for among the best combos. Sometimes you Donate / MS into something else but it has to be very quick to compete with the money version.
Title: Re: Combo: Donate-market square.
Post by: Kirian on May 26, 2017, 01:37:28 pm
I hadn't even considered this.  This is cwazy.
Title: Re: Combo: Donate-market square.
Post by: ThetaSigma12 on May 26, 2017, 02:13:22 pm
Quote from: luser on May 26, 2017, 08:45:29 am
you want to repay at least 1 debt this turn
You need to repay all 8, you can't buy things with debt.
Title: Re: Combo: Donate-market square.
Post by: luser on May 27, 2017, 06:26:54 am
Quote from: ThetaSigma12 on May 26, 2017, 02:13:22 pm
Quote from: luser on May 26, 2017, 08:45:29 am
you want to repay at least 1 debt this turn
You need to repay all 8, you can't buy things with debt.
Previous sentence says to buy ms+donate, obviously repay 1 debt from that donate for repaying 7 debt+province next turn.
Title: Re: Combo: Donate-market square.
Post by: FirstTimePlayer on August 09, 2017, 01:11:15 am
Rule number two, only keep 5 coppers if you pay 3 for donate, presumably, if you pay 5, you can keep 3 comfortably. Had this situation today.
Title: Re: Combo: Donate-market square.
Post by: crj on August 09, 2017, 02:43:09 am
I had this come up a few months ago.

I'll never win championships, but I'm pretty competent as a Dominion player. One of the other players knew this, smelled a rat when I ignored Mountebank...
Title: Re: Combo: Donate-market square.
Post by: Elestan on August 09, 2017, 10:34:46 am
I put this combo in a Kingdom in my last tournament (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16321.0), but I don't think anyone played it to its full effect:

(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/f/f7/Lurker.jpg/200px-Lurker.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Lurker) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/f/f1/Market_Square.jpg/200px-Market_Square.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Market_Square) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/0/09/Masterpiece.jpg/200px-Masterpiece.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Masterpiece) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/1/1f/Feodum.jpg/200px-Feodum.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Feodum) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/8/8c/Gardens.jpg/200px-Gardens.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Gardens)
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/3/3c/Messenger.jpg/200px-Messenger.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Messenger) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/7/70/Rats.jpg/200px-Rats.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Rats) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/e/e0/Council_Room.jpg/200px-Council_Room.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Council_Room) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/9/96/Haggler.jpg/200px-Haggler.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Haggler) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/d/dd/Border_Village.jpg/200px-Border_Village.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Border_Village)
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/4/42/Donate.jpg/320px-Donate.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Donate) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/7/71/Tomb.jpg/320px-Tomb.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Tomb)
I hope everyone can make this year's event (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=17366.0)!
Title: Re: Combo: Donate-market square.
Post by: werothegreat on August 09, 2017, 01:21:43 pm
Market Square-Donate (with some Tomb on the side) into Masterpiece-Feodum seems legit
Title: Re: Combo: Donate-market square.
Post by: crj on August 09, 2017, 02:06:20 pm
Really? Assuming a two-person mirror, if you get 20*Silver, 4*Feodum that's 4*6=24 points. If you trash those 24 cards, and the extra 12 Silvers that trashing the Feodums gives you, that's 36 points. So you have to work very hard ideed for a Feodum to be worth more to you in your deck than as trash.

Having made that observation, if you only get 4VP by trashing Feodum and the three Silvers it gives, and Feodum costs $4, maybe it's easier just to get four more Silvers with your Masterpiece?

So I'm tempted by Market Square, Donate, Masterpiece. What am I overlooking?
Title: Re: Combo: Donate-market square.
Post by: Awaclus on August 09, 2017, 02:17:01 pm
Quote from: crj on August 09, 2017, 02:06:20 pm
So I'm tempted by Market Square, Donate, Masterpiece. What am I overlooking?

That it isn't as fast as just going for Provinces.
Title: Re: Combo: Donate-market square.
Post by: JW on August 09, 2017, 02:34:38 pm
Quote from: crj on August 09, 2017, 02:06:20 pm
Really? Assuming a two-person mirror, if you get 20*Silver, 4*Feodum that's 4*6=24 points. If you trash those 24 cards, and the extra 12 Silvers that trashing the Feodums gives you, that's 36 points. So you have to work very hard ideed for a Feodum to be worth more to you in your deck than as trash.

You can't evaluate a Masterpiece-Feodum strategy here by assuming that it's mirrored. To consider whether a strategy is worthwhile you need to look at what happens when it isn't mirrored. There's a great post by Mic Qsenoch discussing this issue:

Quote from: Mic Qsenoch on April 09, 2014, 08:30:22 am
Two decks with five Highways might take 18 turns to end the game. One deck with 8-10 Highways might take 13 turns.

The general situation is: lots of engines require large numbers of specific cards to achieve maximum speed. If you don't contest important engine cards, your opponent can runaway with the game. When two players contest all the engine pieces, the decks that you end up with are often mediocre, but it was necessary to not get destroyed by the uncontested engine. There are lots of engine pieces that lead to this situation (Minion, Highway, Grand Market, King's Court, Villages, Bridge, Hunting Party, Lab, Stables, Scrying Pool, and many others)
Title: Re: Combo: Donate-market square.
Post by: Geronimoo on August 09, 2017, 03:54:48 pm
62 points in 10 turns (game #5852849)
Title: Re: Combo: Donate-market square.
Post by: funkdoc on August 09, 2017, 05:15:07 pm
i know i'm inviting pages of pedantic debate with this, but...can we safely call this the fastest big money strategy? top 3 would probably be:

1. Market Square/Donate
2. Gear/Inheritance
3. Jack/Donate (think this might move up a spot if Borrow is also in the game)
Honorable Mention: Jack/Bonfire (just barely worse than Donate)
Title: Re: Combo: Donate-market square.
Post by: mad4math on August 09, 2017, 05:51:37 pm
It's much better than that
I think haggler-market square-tomb-donate is really powerful on that board.

179 vp after turn 10, ignoring feodum. (game 5854674)
157 vp after turn 9, using feodum. This one might not count as it fails to empty piles and end the game. game 5855183
158 vp after turn 9, empties piles during the donate, so the opponent would get one more turn. game 5855583



Title: Re: Combo: Donate-market square.
Post by: Kirian on August 09, 2017, 05:52:42 pm
Quote from: funkdoc on August 09, 2017, 05:15:07 pm
i know i'm inviting pages of pedantic debate with this, but...can we safely call this the fastest big money strategy? top 3 would probably be:

1. Market Square/Donate
2. Gear/Inheritance
3. Jack/Donate (think this might move up a spot if Borrow is also in the game)
Honorable Mention: Jack/Bonfire (just barely worse than Donate)

Once it needs two cards (or card-like objects), I think it's a combo deck rather than BM.
Title: Re: Combo: Donate-market square.
Post by: Elestan on August 09, 2017, 06:55:18 pm
I should note that this was a three-player tournament, so non-Victory cards would be a bit more contested than in 2p.
Title: Re: Combo: Donate-market square.
Post by: tim17 on August 09, 2017, 11:49:42 pm
Quote from: funkdoc on August 09, 2017, 05:15:07 pm
i know i'm inviting pages of pedantic debate with this, but...can we safely call this the fastest big money strategy? top 3 would probably be:

1. Market Square/Donate
2. Gear/Inheritance
3. Jack/Donate (think this might move up a spot if Borrow is also in the game)
Honorable Mention: Jack/Bonfire (just barely worse than Donate)

Not sure exactly what classifies as a big money strategy, but dungeon/tunnel and courtyard/delve are pretty good. Travelling Fair/Counting House also if it counts (which clearly it does).