Dominion Strategy Forum
Dominion => Dominion General Discussion => Topic started by: Beyond Awesome on March 30, 2017, 05:36:10 pm
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Out of all the new cards to come out, one thing is for certain, Sauna/Avanto is crazy powerful. However, I wonder if the community truly understands when to properly buy cards from this pile. Sauna/Silver is a very popular opening and seems a foregone conclusion in most games, but is this correct opening on most boards?
What I've noticed is that losing the Sauna split is not as bad as losing the Avanto split. The player to get 3 Avantos has a huge advantage over the player who has 3 Saunas but 2 Avantos. So, to me, it would seem that you would want to position yourself to actually win the Avanto split even if that means just getting 2 Saunas. Getting 1 Sauna really sucks though.
Silver/Silver while will likely mean you might lose the Sauna split will mean later on you will have more buying power and also more trashing power. Hitting 5 becomes easier. Also, it might be worth noting what other engine pieces are on the board, most notably things that give +Buy. Opening Silver and a +Buy component might be better than going for a Sauna. Also, if strong trashing is on the board and good villages and draw, you might want to ask if it is worth pursuing Sauna/Avantos after all. For instance Wharf is crazy good and if Junk Dealer or Chapel is on the board, it might be worth considering skipping the Sauna/Avanto pile.
Anyway, I'm not so much trying to give advice as to figure out myself what is the best strategy on Sauna/Avanto boards. Thoughts?
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It just depends on the trashing. If there's better trashing for less than $5, you want to open that a lot of the time, but otherwise you'll probably just open Sauna/Silver in most cases. Cantrip trashing is bretty good.
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I think which split is more important depends on whether there are good villages on board, too. I'd rather have 3 Saunas and 2 Avantos than the reverse if there's the chance of playing 3 other terminals.
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Sauna/Silver is a very good opening because having two Saunas + two Silvers on the beginning of T5 is really good (if the engine relies on Sauna/Avanto)
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Sauna/Silver is a medium strength opening. If Sauna/Avanto is the only engine on the board, it's usually worth going for.
If there's another engine, sometimes you play that and contest Saunas and Avantos at inconvenient times (for the Sauna player)
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Mildly related, apparently Sauna/Avanto is available on BGG again.
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I feel like Sauna / Silver is a bit like double Urchin in the way that its good but swingy.
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Mildly related, apparently Sauna/Avanto is available on BGG again.
Puzzle: open Sauna/Avanto.
I didn't work it out but I assume it's possible. EDIT: of course it's possible if you have enough players, it only gets difficult if you have to do it with 2.
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Mildly related, apparently Sauna/Avanto is available on BGG again.
Puzzle: open Sauna/Avanto.
I didn't work it out but I assume it's possible. EDIT: of course it's possible if you have enough players, it only gets difficult if you have to do it with 2.
Easy enough with Messenger, but you have to be the 2nd player, and it has to be a Baker/Borrow board.
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Mildly related, apparently Sauna/Avanto is available on BGG again.
Puzzle: open Sauna/Avanto.
I didn't work it out but I assume it's possible. EDIT: of course it's possible if you have enough players, it only gets difficult if you have to do it with 2.
Advance.
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Mildly related, apparently Sauna/Avanto is available on BGG again.
Puzzle: open Sauna/Avanto.
I didn't work it out but I assume it's possible. EDIT: of course it's possible if you have enough players, it only gets difficult if you have to do it with 2.
Advance.
That doesn't work, unless you're talking about some complex thing where Advance (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Advance) helps with it. Advance can't gain you a card that's not on top of a split pile. And also, you wouldn't have any action card in hand to trash.
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Mildly related, apparently Sauna/Avanto is available on BGG again.
Puzzle: open Sauna/Avanto.
I didn't work it out but I assume it's possible. EDIT: of course it's possible if you have enough players, it only gets difficult if you have to do it with 2.
Advance.
That doesn't work, unless you're talking about some complex thing where Advance (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Advance) helps with it. Advance can't gain you a card that's not on top of a split pile. And also, you wouldn't have any action card in hand to trash.
Player 1, Turn 1: Borrow and Baker token to buy traveling fair, advance a necropolis into a topdecked Fortress, Alms a Squire to the top of the deck.
Player 2: Hits $5, Stonemason overpay 4 (Baker token) to get two Sauna
Player 1: Draws Squire Fortress Copper Copper, plays Squire for the +Buy, buys Borrow then 2X Tfair to get to 5 buys, Advance 5x to get 3 Sauna 2 Avanto.
Fun times! You can probably do this without Alms, actually...
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Technically, Chris is me's solution opens Squire/Fortress/Sauna/Sauna/Sauna/Avanto/Avanto. But good enough, and only requires 4 Events!
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Bump because this had been bothering me:
P1T1: play CCCC, TFair, Advance Necro to Fortress topdeck, just straight up buy the Squire and topdeck
P2T1: 4C, buy Sauna
P1T2: Draw CCCSquireFortress, Squire for Buy, 2X TFair 5X Advance Fortress into Sauna / Avanto
P2T2: Advance Necro into Avanto
Not only does this solution only use two Events without even Baker, the second player opens only Sauna / Avanto as requested. :)
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That is just insane
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Sauna/Silver is a medium strength opening. If Sauna/Avanto is the only engine on the board, it's usually worth going for.
If there's another engine, sometimes you play that and contest Saunas and Avantos at inconvenient times (for the Sauna player)
I've been on the other end of this. It seems there are times where being the only one interested in Sauna/Avanto is enough to make it less viable than the alternative engine(s).
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Which is a generally better opener -- Silver/Sauna, or Silver/Engineer? The latter gives you a slightly lower chance of thinning on second shuffle, but also (I feel) gives you a slightly higher chance of winning the Sauna split. Just won such a game handily going Silver/Engineer while opponent went Silver/Sauna.
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Which is a generally better opener -- Silver/Sauna, or Silver/Engineer? The latter gives you a slightly lower chance of thinning on second shuffle, but also (I feel) gives you a slightly higher chance of winning the Sauna split. Just won such a game handily going Silver/Engineer while opponent went Silver/Sauna.
I'd much prefer double Engineer to Silver / Engineer here.
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Probably Sauna/Engineer is best?
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Curious .. in a hypothetical Kingdom with only Sauna/Avanto and Ambassador, which is a better opening -- Silver/Sauna or Amb/Amb? How much would it depend on the Silver/Sauna trashing early, Ambassadors colliding, etc.? Or maybe open Amb/Sauna? Played a game recently where I lost handily when I opened Amb/Amb and opponent opened Silver/Sauna (can't remember other Kingdom cards, but I think they weren't very powerful nor particularly engine-friendly).
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Ambassador seems better if:
- There are helpful $2 cards.
- There are villages.
Sauna + Silver seems better if:
- There are powerful $5 cards you want to get early.
- Sauna + Avanto is the only good way to draw or play multiple terminals.
It probably doesn't make sense to open double Ambassador if you know your opponent is skipping Ambassador (and other early junkers). So, Ambassador + Silver could be correct if the other key cards in the kingdom are at $3 and/or $5. Sauna + Ambassador seems weird to me. I'm not sure when I would open with that.
Edit: If there are no other kingdom cards, you should not open Ambassador. Ambassador requires some kind of support.
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My strategy advice for sauna: All in or nothing
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Ambassador seems better if:
- There are helpful $2 cards.
- There are villages.
Sauna + Silver seems better if:
- There are powerful $5 cards you want to get early.
- Sauna + Avanto is the only good way to draw or play multiple terminals.
It probably doesn't make sense to open double Ambassador if you know your opponent is skipping Ambassador (and other early junkers). So, Ambassador + Silver could be correct if the other key cards in the kingdom are at $3 and/or $5. Sauna + Ambassador seems weird to me. I'm not sure when I would open with that.
Edit: If there are no other kingdom cards, you should not open Ambassador. Ambassador requires some kind of support.
Ok so I'm not still not convinced. I've played 4 games of Sauna vs. Ambassador; Sauna/Silver has won handily twice and Amb/Amb has won handily twice. None of the 4 games were close. I don't remember what the other kingdom cards were in the first 3 games but in the fourth game, there were pretty good support cards -- Port, Warehouse. But I wouldn't think these would particularly be game-changing in making a difference. Amb won that one by a landslide. I really think so much of it comes down to early shuffles: Sauna and Silver colliding and/or Ambassadors colliding.
As an aside: Sauna is becoming one of my top-5 least favorite cards because, much like Swindler, Urchin, etc., the game can be decided very early on from just luck, which I don't think is fun.
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It's also worth questioning how fast to buy Sauna when things like Baker, Alms, or Borrow are on the board.
I feel like on a Baker start, opening double Sauna isn't the best, since it doesn't get trashing going at all and doesn't increase buying power.
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It's also worth questioning how fast to buy Sauna when things like Baker, Alms, or Borrow are on the board.
I feel like on a Baker start, opening double Sauna isn't the best, since it doesn't get trashing going at all and doesn't increase buying power.
Under most circumstances, I think that Sauna/Silver is the opening and save the coin for when you don't hit 4/5.
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To my experience the reliable connection between Saunas and Silvers comes into effect with Avantos in the deck. My corollary is that a Sauna/Avanto strategy is faster when it is contested.
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Out of all the new cards to come out, one thing is for certain, Sauna/Avanto is crazy powerful. However, I wonder if the community truly understands when to properly buy cards from this pile. Sauna/Silver is a very popular opening and seems a foregone conclusion in most games, but is this correct opening on most boards?
What I've noticed is that losing the Sauna split is not as bad as losing the Avanto split. The player to get 3 Avantos has a huge advantage over the player who has 3 Saunas but 2 Avantos. So, to me, it would seem that you would want to position yourself to actually win the Avanto split even if that means just getting 2 Saunas. Getting 1 Sauna really sucks though.
Silver/Silver while will likely mean you might lose the Sauna split will mean later on you will have more buying power and also more trashing power. Hitting 5 becomes easier. Also, it might be worth noting what other engine pieces are on the board, most notably things that give +Buy. Opening Silver and a +Buy component might be better than going for a Sauna. Also, if strong trashing is on the board and good villages and draw, you might want to ask if it is worth pursuing Sauna/Avantos after all. For instance Wharf is crazy good and if Junk Dealer or Chapel is on the board, it might be worth considering skipping the Sauna/Avanto pile.
Anyway, I'm not so much trying to give advice as to figure out myself what is the best strategy on Sauna/Avanto boards. Thoughts?
I think you need more saunas than avantos because avantos are just smithys without saunas. Saunas give one action even if you don't play an avanto. With the opening, I say that if there are any good kingdom cards that cost three, I would open with that kingdom card and sauna. Otherwise, I would open with silver and sauna.
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I think you need more saunas than avantos because avantos are just smithys without saunas. Saunas give one action even if you don't play an avanto.
Playing the Sauna also uses up one action so it doesn't do anything aside from the trashing unless you play an Avanto with it.
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Plus 3 of the only 5 “just Smithys” on a board is huge...
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Plus 3 of the only 5 “just Smithys” on a board is huge...
But then your paying one extra for a smithy! That is a RIP OFF!!!!!!!!!!!
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Plus 3 of the only 5 “just Smithys” on a board is huge...
But then your paying one extra for a smithy! That is a RIP OFF!!!!!!!!!!!
Oh boy. You've got a lot of learning ahead of you.
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I think you need more saunas than avantos because avantos are just smithys without saunas. Saunas give one action even if you don't play an avanto. With the opening, I say that if there are any good kingdom cards that cost three, I would open with that kingdom card and sauna. Otherwise, I would open with silver and sauna.
As Awaclus said, they don't net an action (unless chained). The thing is that you are more likely to have the continuation in hand after Avanto-Sauna-Avanto than you have after Sauna-Avanto-Sauna, which is the main reason why I'd rate the split of 3 Avantoes, 2 Saunas over the reverse.
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Plus 3 of the only 5 “just Smithys” on a board is huge...
But then your paying one extra for a smithy! That is a RIP OFF!!!!!!!!!!!
Obviously if the board has both Avanto, Smithy, and a different kind of Village, it’s probably not that urgent to get more Avantos than your opponent. But most boards aren’t like that!
If you’ve declined to buy a Smithy you need just because you have $5 instead of $4, you’ve got a bit of learning to do. There’s a lot to this game, and concepts of using the full value of your money are not nearly as important as you would think.