Dominion Strategy Forum

Dominion => Variants and Fan Cards => Topic started by: Neirai the Forgiven on February 23, 2017, 02:20:52 pm

Title: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: Neirai the Forgiven on February 23, 2017, 02:20:52 pm
OP updated December 18th, 2017
Hey, everyone. For the last two months year I've been working hard on a fanbrew expansion, Antiquity!
I've come here to get balance feedback on the cards.

Just as a background, I'm a successful modder (co-founder of the critically acclaimed Colonialist Legacies series of Civilization V mods) and aspiring game designer. As a challenge for myself, I decided to build a custom homebrew set, playtest it, buy art for it (from Jan Boruta, and artist that is huge in the Civ V mod scene,) and print it off.

The theme of the set is archaeology. Both 'old things' (artifacts, ancient ruins, old rites) as well as the modern people (archaeologists, collectors, etc) involved in archaeology.
Mechanically, the set focus is "Discarding" with an emphasis on Reactions as well as gains, Victory tokens, and upgraders.
There's a bit of randomized flavor, but basically I tried to create interesting cards that feel 'official' but also can have interesting interactions with official cards.

At this point, the cards are mostly close to finished... I've been playtesting constantly all year. But some are still in flux -- Pharaohs and Mendicants in particular.

Enough of that, on to the cards!

Quote
Petroglyph ($3)
Action - Reaction
+1 Action
Discard any number of cards, then draw until you have 4 cards in hand.
-
When you discard this card during an Action phase, you can reveal it and set it aside.
If you do, discard it at the end of turn for +1 Card.

Quote
Agora ($5)
Action - Reaction
+2 Actions
+$2

-
When you discard this card other than during your Clean-up phase, you may reveal it to gain a Silver to your hand.

Quote
Discovery ($2)
Treasure
$2
While this is in play, when you buy a card from a Supply pile, shuffle this into that pile.
-
When you gain a card from the top of a non-Discovery Supply pile, if this is the next card in the pile, gain it and a Gold.

Quote
Aquifer ($5)   
Action - Reaction
+1 Card
+$1

You may play an Aquifer from your hand.
-
When you discard this card during your Action phase, you may reveal it to gain an Aquifer.

Quote
Tomb Raider ($3)
Action - Attack
+1 Action
Each other player discards an Attack card (or reveals they can't.)
You may gain a copy of a Treasure revealed this way.

Quote
Artifact ($4)
Treasure
$1
-
While this is in play, directly after you buy a Treasure, you may discard this to play that Treasure and +1 Buy.
This wording is technically correct but a bit weird... how do I play +1 Buy?

Quote
Avatar of Greed ($4)
Treasure
$3
While this is in play, when you buy a card, put it on your Avatar mat.
If it was a Curse, take an extra turn after this one, and you draw all of the cards on your Avatar Mat instead of drawing from your deck at the end of this turn.

Quote
Dig Site ($8)
Victory - Action
Reveal the top 5 cards of your deck and discard them.
You may trash this. If you do,
+1% for each Action or Copper revealed.
+2% for each non-Copper Treasure revealed.

Quote
Moundbuilder Village ($3)
Action
+2 Actions
When you discard this from play during Clean-Up, look through your discard pile and set aside a card from your discard pile with the highest $ cost (if it's a tie, you choose.) Put it in your hand at the end of your turn.

Quote
Encroach ($6)
Action
+2 Cards.
+1 Action.

You may discard a Treasure card from your hand to gain a Victory card costing up to 2 more onto your deck.

Quote
Stoneworks ($4)
Action
+1 Buy.
Trash a card from your hand to gain a Silver onto your deck.
If you trashed a Victory card, get a VP token per $ it cost more than $2.
-
When you gain this, +1VP when you gain another card this turn.

Quote
Graveyard ($1)
Action
+2 Actions
-
When you trash this, gain a card from the trash.

Quote
Inspector ($3)
Action - Attack
+2 Cards
Reveal then discard 2 cards from your hand.
Each other player with 4 or more cards in hand discards a card that is a copy of one of the discarded cards (or reveals a hand with no copies.)

Quote
Archaeologist ($7)
Action
Reveal the top 6 cards of your deck.
Put 3 of them into your hand.
Choose one: Discard the remaining cards, or put them onto your deck in any order.

Quote
Mission House ($5)
Action
+2 Cards
If you have 5 or less VP tokens, you may discard a Victory card for +1VP.
Otherwise, +2 Actions.

Quote
Mendicant ($4)
Action
+1 Card
+1 Action

Gain a Copper to your hand.
-
At the end of your Buy Phase, if Coppers are the only Treasures in play, you may gain an Estate.

Quote
Profiteer ($5)
Action - Reaction
+1 Buy
+$1

Trash a non-Victory card from the Supply. Cards with the same name as that one cost $1 less this turn.
-
On your turn, when you gain a card other than during your Buy Phase, you may discard this to exchange that card for one costing $1 or $2 more.

Quote
Prospector ($3)
Action
+1 Card
+1 Action

You may discard a Victory card to gain a Treasure costing up to $1 more.

Quote
Pyramid ($5)
Action
+$5
You may trash 2 cards from your hand.
Gain 2 Curses.

Quote
Riches ($4)
Treasure
$4
At the end of your Buy Phase, if this is in play, trash all other Treasures you have in play.

Quote
Sarcophagus ($6)
Action
Gain an Action card costing up to $4. Play that Action twice, then trash it.
-
When you buy this, each other player gains a Curse.

Quote
Shipwreck ($2)
Action
+1 Buy
+$1

Look through your discard pile and put a Treasure from it onto the bottom of your deck.

Quote
Collector ($4)
Action
Each player (including you) looks at the top card of their deck and either discards it or puts it back.
Trash the top card of your deck. Gain a card costing up to $3 more that shares a type with it onto your deck.

Quote
Pharaoh ($8)
Action - Attack
Trash your hand. For each Treasure trashed this way, gain a Gold. For each Curse trashed this way, each other player gains a Curse.
Note: This started as a joke. Then my artist wanted me to put it in anyhow because he wanted to draw crazy art for it. So it's in.

Quote
Tomb Guardian ($3)
Action - Attack
+ $2
You may gain a Curse, for +1 Action and + $1.
You may discard a Curse. If you did, each other player reveals their hand, discards a Treasure of your choice, and gains a Copper to their hand.

Quote
Stronghold ($4)
Action - Reaction
Look through your discard pile.
Choose one: Trash up to two cards from it or your hand; or,
Play a card from it.
-
Directly after a player plays an Attack, you may reveal this from you hand to trash a card that you gained this turn, or one from your hand.

Quote
Boulder Trap ($3)
Trap   
-1 VP
-
When you trash this, each other player gains a Curse.
Note: The trap is a new card type with the rules:
Setup: Shuffle a Boulder into each Kingdom Supply pile (for split piles, shuffle it into the bottom split.) Turn these Supply piles face down, except for the top card. If you gain/trash the top card of the pile, reveal the next card by flipping it face up.
If you reveal this (flip it up) from the top of a Kingdom Supply pile, gain it.

If I'm ever foolish enough to make another Dominion fanspansion (Invention?,) it will also have traps.


At this point, I'm waiting for the last of the art to arrive and finishing up the rulebook.
Title: Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: trivialknot on February 23, 2017, 03:55:38 pm
It would help if you could also post the card text in the thread.

Ancient Waterways - A small nitpick, the reaction text should be below the on-play text.  This looks like an interesting and balanced card.

Archaeologist - This is usually bad for your deck.  It needs sufficiently high action density to trigger at all, and playing it actively decreases your action density.  I think you'd frequently have to trash actions that you want to keep.  What if you tried removing the trashing part?  Oh--I just realized this is a splitter too.

Artifact/Bauble - When you put a treasure into play, does that mean you're playing it?  If I have multiple artifacts, can I play the same treasure multiple times?  There are some interesting things you can do with this, particularly when Artifact is the only +Buy.  But I think most of the time it's a treasure that gives you the power to Delve.  $4 might be about right, although I'd test it at $2 and $3 as well.

Cursed Idol - A $5-cost gold isn't super strong to begin with, and 2 curses seems like a steep penalty.  I'd try it with 1 curse first.  It's interesting that you might buy one of these to punish an opponent, but you might just be punishing yourself.  Again, the reaction text should go below the on-play text.

Digsite - Say that I play a Digsite and reveal a gold, while you play a Digsite and reveal a copper, I have a whole 4 VP lead over you.  This feels very unfair.

Mission House - I think this should be priced at $4 or cheaper.  It's usually worse than Smithy or Gear.  Discarding 2 silver for a Duchy, well, that's almost enough to just buy the Duchy.  Topdecking action cards may occasionally be useful to guarantee a good turn next turn, but Gear accomplishes the same thing better.
Title: Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: Neirai the Forgiven on February 23, 2017, 05:07:05 pm
Thank you! This is just the kind of feedback that I'm looking for.

**Update: Now that I'm not at work I can give a bit more pushback.

For the Artifact/Bauble: (Name not quite decided) -- putting the treasure into play means I'm playing it, yes. Although this being your buy phase, I could just as well put it into your hand and make it less confusing.
Although I hadn't thought of people discarding multiple of these to play the same treasure multiple times. Putting it into your hand would remove that option. Which I think is okay, if not less fun.

For the Cursed Idol: Originally the Cursed Idol just allowed other people to reveal it to give you curses. The problem is that then it is a great card in a two-player game, since you're likely to only get 1 curse if any, but in a 4 or god forbid 6 player game you could gain 5 or more curses from one play!
Hense, I balanced it around 3 player games. But perhaps capping the curse at 1 would be better? I'll have to test both ways.

I'm thinking for Digsite perhaps I should make it give points on a range instead... 2 or less is 1 VP, 3-5 is 3 VP, 6+ is 4 VP.

I'm still thinking about them all.
Title: Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: LibraryAdventurer on February 23, 2017, 11:47:08 pm
I don't have much to add to what trivialknot said. Just wanted to say I like Ancient Waterways and Bauble.

If you make Bauble put the treasure in your hand, it wouldn't be any help because according to the rules, you can't play more treasures after you start buying things. You can only play treasures at the beginning of the buy phase. My suggestion on the wording would be:
"While this is in play, when you buy a Treasure, you may discard this card. If you do, +1 Buy and play that treasure if it isn't already in play."  This would keep two baubles from playing treasures twice.

Also, I thought it was neat that you chose the same flavor theme (Antiquity / Archaeology) as my fan expansion, Resurgence. You can look at it with the link in my sig. My expansion has several cards that use ruins.
Title: Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: Neirai the Forgiven on February 24, 2017, 09:53:20 am
Also, I thought it was neat that you chose the same flavor theme (Antiquity / Archaeology) as my fan expansion, Resurgence. You can look at it with the link in my sig. My expansion has several cards that use ruins.

Sweet. I also have an Ancient Temple (I think it'll be in the card list I reveal today)... maybe I should change the names to 'Buried' from Ancient? The idea is that these are cards you unearth.

My 'Ancient whatever' cards are all a cycle that use Tunnel-style reactions.
Title: Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: Neirai the Forgiven on February 24, 2017, 10:09:40 am
Dump #2!

Quote
Shipwreck (4)
Action   

Discard a card.
If you did:
+$2
Put this on top of your deck.
The inspiration for this card (name has flopped around a bit, from Sunken Vessel to Sunken Ship to Shipwreck) is a vessel packed with treasure sitting on the seabed. You can visit it again and again for wealth, but it takes a bit of work to do it.

Quote
Spelunker (4)
Action

+$2
Discard the top card of your deck. If it is an:
Action or Treasure, trash it and gain a card of the same type costing up to 3 Money more.
Victory card, gain a Gold.
It's a sort-of Mine with little control over what it works on, plus you don't get to put the new card into your hand.

Quote
Stoneworks (5)
Action   

+2 Cards.
+1 Buy.
Reveal your hand.
If you revealed more than one card with the same name,
Cards with the same name as those cards cost $2 less (But not less than $0)
This started as a Quarry mixed with an Ironworks... now it's just a weird Quarry.

Quote
Tomb Guardian (4)
Action - Attack

+$2
You may gain a Curse card immediately. If you do, +1 Action, +$1.
Each other player with 4 or more cards in hand puts 2 cards from their hand on top of their deck.
Are you willing to make a deal with the devil for the tomb's treasure? Originally, this made the target put a treasure on top of the target's deck. I might make it do that again.

Quote
Ziggurat (4)
Action

Trash two differently named cards from your discard pile.
If you do, play a card from your discard pile.
This one has changed quite a bit over time. The idea is to capture the Mayan-esque concept of sacrifices happening when the sun aligns with the building. Therefore, I'm not worried about this being a dud card when you have no discard pile. I'm worried about it being a dud card all the time. ;)

Quote
Ancient Temple (4)
Action - Reaction - Attack   

+2 Cards
Choose one: Trash up to two cards from your hand; or,
+1 VP token.
---
When you discard this card any time other than during Clean-up, you can reveal it. If you do, each other player gains a Curse.
It's sort of got some Temple flavor. It might be overcost? or undercost? It's hard to cost things when they have reactions and choices, since you can only use it for one of three things.
Title: Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: Roadrunner7671 on February 24, 2017, 10:11:36 am
(also let me know if there's any better uses of the forums that I could do. I'm a noob.)
You should check out the forum games!
Title: Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: ThetaSigma12 on February 24, 2017, 10:37:12 am
Quote
Shipwreck (4)
Action   

Discard a card.
If you did:
+$2
Put this on top of your deck.
I'd take the money out of the conditional, or maybe the discarding altogether. The concept is cool but a terminal silver costs roughly 2 and this is maybe worse.
Quote
Spelunker (4)
Action

+$2
Discard the top card of your deck. If it is an:
Action or Treasure, trash it and gain a card of the same type costing up to 3 Money more.
Victory card, gain a Gold.
Maybe just a Psudeo Swindler, trash the top card of your deck gain a card with the same type up to 3 more.
Quote
Stoneworks (5)
Action   

+2 Cards.
+1 Buy.
Reveal your hand.
If you revealed more than one card with the same name,
Cards with the same name as those cards cost $2 less (But not less than $0)
Maybe just "You may reveal 2 cards with the same name from your hand, copies lf that card cost 2 less." I like it.
Quote
Tomb Guardian (4)
Action - Attack

+$2
You may gain a Curse card immediately. If you do, +1 Action, +$1.
Each other player with 4 or more cards in hand puts 2 cards from their hand on top of their deck.
It's a broken millitia even withought the Curse bit, which I don't like.
Quote
Ziggurat (4)
Action

Trash two differently named cards from your discard pile.
If you do, play a card from your discard pile.
I like it, but would be in favor of some discarding thing to make it less dead.
Quote
Ancient Temple (4)
Action - Reaction - Attack   

+2 Cards
Choose one: Trash up to two cards from your hand; or,
+1 VP token.
---
When you discard this card any time other than during Clean-up, you can reveal it. If you do, each other player gains a Curse.
It's really good. I'd start by removing the reaction and costing it 6.


All in all, you have some cool cards. A few things to consider.

You could maybe focus your set on some theme more, whether it's discarding or topdecking or whatever.
You could try interesting new effects, rather then just 3 old effects on a new card. Adding some alt VP, Events, Reserves, or a new token seems like a good way to start.
You could spend some time on names, and in general try to avoid just adding an Adjective to a pre-existing name (Tomb Guardian, Ancient Temple).


As I always, suggest look  at my thread. You'll see a bunch of cards and get some idea of what works and what isn't new under the sun. (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16227.0
here[/url)
Title: Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: Polk5440 on February 24, 2017, 01:42:24 pm
I also like Ancient Waterways, Artifact, and Archaeologist the best of the first set of 6. The other three I wouldn't really keep around -- Cursed Idol especially.

Re: Cursed Idol. Here's my thinking.

Cache is probably your closest comparison. That card gives you a one time penalty of two Coppers on gain. Then the card is just a Gold for the rest of the game. You can play it as many times as you like without slowdown (i.e. waiting for others to potentially reveal), which is a plus, or additional potential penalty. And Cache is still a very weak card. 

So, I'm not excited by Cursed Idol and wouldn't likely ever buy it, so that leaves the whole pile to you! Yay! That's a "yay for me!". Gold is a weak card. Often, taking a $5 kingdom card over Gold even when you have $6 is the right move. It has to be this way for the game to be varied and interesting. Kingdom cards have to compete with and beat out Gold. This calculus wouldn't change even if Cursed Idol was a straight up Gold priced at $5. Think about how events like Delve and Wedding change (or more usually, don't change!) the game.

So I would focus my energies on the wheat (Ancient Waterways, Artifact, and Archaeologist) and cut the chaff (Cursed Idol).

Edit: word.
Title: Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: trivialknot on February 24, 2017, 03:04:39 pm
I think it's fine if Artifact stacks.  It's slightly confusing, but makes it a more interesting card.  There are kingdoms where the only way to double-province is to play 2 Artifacts and buy a silver every turn.

Shipwreck - While a card that mandatorily topdecks itself is interesting, that ability should really be on a better card.  A terminal silver is something you usually don't even want for free, much less a thing you want to draw every single turn.

Spelunker - This seems strong.  If it hits Copper or Silver, it's better than Mine (a weak card but still priced at $5).  Hitting an action seems like the weakest effect.

Stoneworks - Well that's interesting.  You should try to imagine how this would play in a deck-drawing engine.  It would take a bit of setup, but you could buy lots of components after their cost has been reduced to $0, and then after getting 2 provinces you can buy them out the next turn.  I suppose it's a bit imbalanced, in that it's very powerful in a small number of situations, but not so great otherwise.

Tomb Guardian - A ghost ship at $4 would really really slow down the game, you have no idea.  Is it intentional that this can reduce players to a 2-card hand?  You might be able to fix it by saying players only put one card on top of their deck.

Ziggurat - Note that your discard pile is empty about half of the time--depending on the kind of deck you have.  Can this play any card, or only Actions?

Ancient Temple - As ThetaSigma mentioned, this is really strong.  Even +2 Cards +1 VP is broken because you can build a deck that just plays many of them per turn and hardly anything else.  +2 Cards, optionally trash 2 cards is also broken (compare to Masquerade and Steward, which are already very strong)

I won't offer much in the way of general set advice, but there appear (so far) to be an excess of payoff cards.  Even the actions that draw you 2 cards appear to be more geared towards payoff than draw.  Splitters and draw cards are an important part of a complete set.
Title: Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: Neirai the Forgiven on February 24, 2017, 06:28:17 pm
Just dropping a big thank you for the feedback so far. I've got an uphill battle ahead of me, I can tell.
Interestingly, I can tell that most of you are at a much higher level of play than I am, which is coloring what I think is balanced vs. what is actually mechanically balanced. It's great that I'm getting the opportunity to get high-level feedback.

Cards are changing as a result of this feedback, but where they land I'm not sure yet.

Edit: I should mention that discards, especially discarding the top card of your deck, is the overall theme.
Title: Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: Neirai the Forgiven on February 24, 2017, 06:35:40 pm
Spelunker - This seems strong.  If it hits Copper or Silver, it's better than Mine (a weak card but still priced at $5).  Hitting an action seems like the weakest effect.
Hmm, good point. The money might need to be reduced to +$1.

Ziggurat - Note that your discard pile is empty about half of the time--depending on the kind of deck you have.  Can this play any card, or only Actions?
It can play any card. Bring on the Platinum!
Putting some discard on it might be worthwhile. I have a lot of +2 -2 Cards cards in the set already, though.

Would it be profitable to dump all of the cards? I'm concerned about overload since my previous attempts to get feedback were overwhelmed by the full 27 card list.
Title: Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: ThetaSigma12 on February 24, 2017, 08:29:16 pm
Just post em all in text form.
Title: Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: Neirai the Forgiven on February 24, 2017, 10:50:57 pm
Here are them all.... in their current state. You may notice that the Mission House and Digsite has changed, also that I still need to incorporate some text cleanups.

Quote
Ancient Library (3?)
Action - Reaction
+1 Action
You may discard any number of cards.
Draw until you have 5 cards in hand.
-
When you discard this card any time other than during Clean-up, you can reveal it. If you do, draw a card.

Quote
Ancient Markets (4)
Action - Reaction
+2 Actions.
+2 Money.
-
When you discard this card any time other than during Clean-up, you can reveal it to put a Copper from your discard pile into your hand.

Quote
Ancient Temple (4)
Action - Reaction - Attack
   
+2 Cards
Choose one: Trash up to two cards from your hand; or,
Gain +1 VP.
-
When you discard this card any time other than during Clean-up, you can reveal it. If you do, each other player gains a Curse.

Quote
Ancient Waterways (5)
Action - Reaction

+1 Card.
+1 Action.
+1 Money.
-
When you discard this card any time other than during Clean-up, you can reveal it to gain a copy of Ancient Waterways.

Quote
Archaeologist (4)
Action   

+1 Action.
Reveal the top 3 cards of your deck. Play an action card you revealed. If you do, trash it and gain a Treasure card costing up to 1 Money more than the trashed card, and put it into your hand.

Quote
Artifact (4)
Treasure

1 Money.
While this is in play, when you buy a treasure, you can discard this card.
If you do, +1 Buy and put that treasure into play.

Quote
Cursed Idol (5)
Treasure - Reaction

3 Money.
At the end of your turn, if any player revealed a Cursed Idol when you played this card, gain two Curses.
-
Whenever an other player plays a Cursed Idol, you can reveal this from your hand.

Quote
Digsite (5)
Victory - Action

Reveal the top card of your deck.
If it is a Victory Card, discard it. Otherwise, trash this card. If the revealed card costs...
$2 or less, +2VP.
$3 to $5, +3VP.
$6 or more, +4VP.

Quote
Earthmound Village (5)
Action

+1 Card.
+2 Actions.
Reveal your hand.
If you revealed no Copper:
+1 Buy
+1 Money

Quote
Encroach (6)
Action

+2 Cards.
+1 Action.
Reveal a card from your hand. Gain a victory card costing less than the revealed card and put it on top of your deck.

Quote
Excavate (4)
Action   

Reveal the top 5 cards of your deck.
Put a revealed Treasure into your hand and the other Treasures on top or bottom of your deck. Discard the rest.

Quote
Graveyard (1)
Action

+2 Actions
-
When you trash this, gain a card from the trash.
...yes, it IS a Necropolis.

Quote
Inspector (3)
Action - Attack

+2 Cards
Discard 2 cards.
For each card you discarded, each other player with 4 or more cards in hand reveals a card with the same name from their hand and discards it (or reveals a hand with no matching cards.)

Quote
Megalith (7)
Action

+3 Cards.
Discard any number of Curse or Victory cards from your hand.
+1 Money per card discarded.

Quote
Mission House (4)
Action

+2 Cards
You may discard a Victory card from your hand. If you do, +1 VP token.
If you have 6 or more VP tokens, +2 Actions.

Quote
Petroglyph (5)
Action

+1 Card.
+1 Action.
You may gain a card costing up to 3 Money + 1 Money per Victory cards you discard.

Quote
Profiteer (4)
Action - Reaction

+1 Money.
+1 Buy.
Trash a non-Victory card in the supply.
+1 Money for each empty supply pile.
-
If you would gain a card during your action phase, you can discard this from your hand. If you do, gain a card costing 2 Money more instead.

Quote
Prospector (2)
Action

+1 Card
+1 Action
Trash a treasure from your hand.
Gain a treasure costing more than it, chosen by the player to your left.

Quote
Pyramid (5)
Action

You may trash 2 cards from your hand.
+5 Money
Gain 2 Curses.

Quote
Riches (4)
Treasure

4 Money
When you buy a card using this, trash all the other treasures you used to buy that card.
It's based on a real historical event. I swear.

Quote
Sarcophagus (6)
Action - Attack
Choose an action card in the supply costing up to 4 Money.
Play that card three times, then trash it.
-
When you buy this, as an attack, each other player gains a Curse.

Quote
Shipwreck (4)(3?)
Action

Discard a card.
If you did:
+2 Money
Put this on top of your deck.
Might need recosting but probably needs redesigning, since it's pretty powerful on turns 3-8? and then falls off and you start hating it.

Quote
Spelunker (4)
Action

+1 Money
Discard the top card of your deck. If it is an:
Action or Treasure, trash it and gain a card of the same type costing up to 3 Money more.
Victory card, gain a Gold.
I'm definitely thinking of making this just "gain a card sharing a type costing up to 3 more" for every card type.

Quote
Stoneworks (5)
Action

+2 Cards.
+1 Buy.
Reveal your hand.
If you revealed more than one card with the same name,
Cards with the same name as those cards cost 2 Money less
(But not less than 0 Money.)

Quote
Tomb Guardian (4)
Action - Attack

+2 Money
You may gain a Curse card. If you did, +1 Action, +1 Money.
Each other player with 4 or more cards in hand puts 2 cards from their hand on top of their deck.

Quote
Ziggurat (4)
Action

Trash two differently named cards from your discard pile.
If you do, play a card from your discard pile.
      
Quote
Boulder Trap (3)
Trap   

-1 VP
Setup: Shuffle a copy of Boulder into each pile in the Supply.
If the Boulder is at the top of a pile, trash it.
-
If you reveal this from the top of a Supply pile, put it on top of your deck.

When you discard this card any time other than during Clean-up, put this on top of the current player's deck.
If a player trashes this, each other player gains a Curse.
What's a fan expack without a one-off custom card type?
I rather like playing with this, and might make more Traps if I ever make Dominion:Invention.

This is all of the cards! As per usual I'm changing these all of the time.
Title: Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: LibraryAdventurer on February 25, 2017, 01:56:58 am
Quote
Ancient Library (3?)
Action - Reaction
+1 Action
You may discard any number of cards.
Draw until you have 5 cards in hand.
-
When you discard this card any time other than during Clean-up, you can reveal it. If you do, draw a card.
I like it. Similar to Cellar except for the reaction.

Quote
Ancient Markets (4)
Action - Reaction
+2 Actions.
+2 Money.
-
When you discard this card any time other than during Clean-up, you can reveal it to put a Copper from your discard pile into your hand.
Seems okay, but I like CookieLord's Suburb (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13625.msg512473) better, and it's very similar.

Quote
Ancient Temple (4)
Action - Reaction - Attack
   
+2 Cards
Choose one: Trash up to two cards from your hand; or,
Gain +1 VP.
-
When you discard this card any time other than during Clean-up, you can reveal it. If you do, each other player gains a Curse.
I agree with what Theta and Trivialknot said about it.

Quote
Archaeologist (4)
Action   

+1 Action.
Reveal the top 3 cards of your deck. Play an action card you revealed. If you do, trash it and gain a Treasure card costing up to 1 Money more than the trashed card, and put it into your hand.
Why would we want to trash an action to get a treasure?* yuk. (agree with trivialknot)
(*try to resist answering this with all the edge cases.)

Quote
Artifact (4)
Treasure

1 Money.
While this is in play, when you buy a treasure, you can discard this card.
If you do, +1 Buy and put that treasure into play.
Seems fine, but needs rewording.

Quote
Cursed Idol (5)
Treasure - Reaction

3 Money.
At the end of your turn, if any player revealed a Cursed Idol when you played this card, gain two Curses.
-
Whenever an other player plays a Cursed Idol, you can reveal this from your hand.
(agree with Polk5440)

Quote
Digsite (5)
Victory - Action

Reveal the top card of your deck.
If it is a Victory Card, discard it. Otherwise, trash this card. If the revealed card costs...
$2 or less, +2VP.
$3 to $5, +3VP.
$6 or more, +4VP.
Strictly worse than Distant Lands which always gives 4VP when you play it.

Quote
Earthmound Village (5)
Action

+1 Card.
+2 Actions.
Reveal your hand.
If you revealed no Copper:
+1 Buy
+1 Money
I think I like it. BTW, there's a browser extension (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13363.0) for these forums, which lets you easily post coins like this, +(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/f/f7/Coin1.png/16px-Coin1.png)

Quote
Encroach (6)
Action

+2 Cards.
+1 Action.
Reveal a card from your hand. Gain a victory card costing less than the revealed card and put it on top of your deck.
With the mandatory gain and topdecking of cards that are usually junk until the end, this would probably be okay costing (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/7/7d/Coin5.png/16px-Coin5.png). ...well, I guess it isn't mandatory when you can reveal a copper and fail to gain a cheaper victory card, so maybe it's fine. It still might be a bit weak for (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/6/6f/Coin6.png/16px-Coin6.png) (unless something like Mill is on the board).

Quote
Excavate (4)
Action   

Reveal the top 5 cards of your deck.
Put a revealed Treasure into your hand and the other Treasures on top or bottom of your deck. Discard the rest.
Why would we want our action cards discarded? Might be okay as a big money card I guess.
Could be good if it said "Put a revealed Treasure into your hand. Discard any number of non-treasure cards. Put the rest on the top or bottom of your deck."

Quote
Graveyard (1)
Action

+2 Actions
-
When you trash this, gain a card from the trash.
Interesting. I think I like it. When there's no other splitter, people might buy it because a necropolis can be better than no splitter at all. Also, it's good that a card with this reaction doesn't cost much, otherwise it could be OP with trash for benefit. <Gives Lurker the stinkeye>

Quote
Inspector (3)
Action - Attack

+2 Cards
Discard 2 cards.
For each card you discarded, each other player with 4 or more cards in hand reveals a card with the same name from their hand and discards it (or reveals a hand with no matching cards.)
I like the idea, but it would usually be very weak. OTOH, the rare potential to discard your good cards if you know you can redraw them the same turn, could make it too strong for (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/3/3d/Coin2.png/16px-Coin2.png).

Quote
Megalith (7)
Action

+3 Cards.
Discard any number of Curse or Victory cards from your hand.
+1 Money per card discarded.
Too similar to Vault.

Quote
Mission House (4)
Action

+2 Cards
You may discard a Victory card from your hand. If you do, +1 VP token.
If you have 6 or more VP tokens, +2 Actions.
So after a few plays, it's better than Lost City at (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/2/2a/Coin4.png/16px-Coin4.png) cost? Not good as-is.

Quote
Petroglyph (5)
Action

+1 Card.
+1 Action.
You may gain a card costing up to 3 Money + 1 Money per Victory cards you discard.
It needs to say that you can discard victory cards. Then it becomes too similar to Artificer IMO.

Quote
Profiteer (4)
Action - Reaction

+1 Money.
+1 Buy.
Trash a non-Victory card in the supply.
+1 Money for each empty supply pile.
-
If you would gain a card during your action phase, you can discard this from your hand. If you do, gain a card costing 2 Money more instead.
Looks good. I'd have to test it before I can tell how strong it would be.

Quote
Prospector (2)
Action

+1 Card
+1 Action
Trash a treasure from your hand.
Gain a treasure costing more than it, chosen by the player to your left.
On a board without kingdom treasures, this is just a cantrip Mine (too strong for (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/3/3d/Coin2.png/16px-Coin2.png)). On a board with something like Masterpiece or Loan, it gets a lot worse. I don't think this idea works well.

Quote
Pyramid (5)
Action

You may trash 2 cards from your hand.
+5 Money
Gain 2 Curses.
I guess this is comparable to Death Cart? At least it provides a way to trash the curses. Might be okay. Then again, it becomes very strong once the curses run out. Maybe make the trashing mandatory?

Quote
Riches (4)
Treasure

4 Money
When you buy a card using this, trash all the other treasures you used to buy that card.
Gets too strong in games with virtual money (+(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/6/6d/Coin.png/16px-Coin.png) on action cards). Also, what happens if you buy a card with two Riches in play?

Quote
Sarcophagus (6)
Action - Attack
Choose an action card in the supply costing up to 4 Money.
Play that card three times, then trash it.
-
When you buy this, as an attack, each other player gains a Curse.
I think I like it. Not sure it needs the on-buy part. The wording "as an attack" works for me, but other people here won't like it...

Quote
Shipwreck (4)(3?)
Action

Discard a card.
If you did:
+2 Money
Put this on top of your deck.
This is never powerful as it is now. I think the idea might work better if it said "Set this aside and put it in your hand at the beginning of your next turn." instead of "Put this on top of your deck."

Quote
Spelunker (4)
Action

+1 Money
Discard the top card of your deck. If it is an:
Action or Treasure, trash it and gain a card of the same type costing up to 3 Money more.
Victory card, gain a Gold.
Seems good.

Quote
Stoneworks (5)
Action

+2 Cards.
+1 Buy.
Reveal your hand.
If you revealed more than one card with the same name,
Cards with the same name as those cards cost 2 Money less (But not less than 0 Money).
This should exclude victory cards. Then it seems like it'd be good.

Quote
Tomb Guardian (4)
Action - Attack

+2 Money
You may gain a Curse card. If you did, +1 Action, +1 Money.
Each other player with 4 or more cards in hand puts 2 cards from their hand on top of their deck.
I think I'd like it better if it was something like this:
Quote
Tomb Guardian v2
Action - Attack  (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/2/2a/Coin4.png/16px-Coin4.png)

+(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/3/3d/Coin2.png/16px-Coin2.png)
You may gain a Curse card. If you did, +1 Action, +(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/f/f7/Coin1.png/16px-Coin1.png) and each other player with 4 or more cards in hand puts 2 cards from their hand on top of their deck.
Otherwise, it's just a cheaper version of one of the most annoying attacks in the game.

Quote
Ziggurat (4)
Action

Trash two differently named cards from your discard pile.
If you do, play a card from your discard pile.
Maybe add "If your discard pile has less than 3 cards, discard 3 cards from your deck" at the top? Otherwise, it would do nothing half the time.

Quote
Boulder Trap (3)
Trap   

-1 VP
Setup: Shuffle a copy of Boulder into each pile in the Supply.
If the Boulder is at the top of a pile, trash it.
-
If you reveal this from the top of a Supply pile, put it on top of your deck.

When you discard this card any time other than during Clean-up, put this on top of the current player's deck.
If a player trashes this, each other player gains a Curse.
This needs rewording, but it could be fun. Has an interesting interaction with discard attacks, but it would really suck with sifters like Warehouse.
Title: Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: ThetaSigma12 on February 25, 2017, 08:49:17 am
Fixed all the wording for you:
Quote
Ancient Library (3?)
Action - Reaction
+1 Action
Discard any number of cards, then draw until you have 5 cards in hand.
-
When you discard this card other than during your Clean-up phase, you may reveal it, for +1 Card.

Quote
Ancient Markets (4)
Action - Reaction
+2 Actions
+$2
-
When you discard this card other than during your Clean-up phase, you may reveal it, to look through your discard pile and put a Copper from it in your hand.

Quote
Ancient Temple (4)
Action - Reaction
   
+2 Cards
Choose one: Trash up to 2 cards from your hand; or +1 VP.
-
When you discard this card other than during your Clean-up phase, you may reveal it. If you do, each other player gains a Curse.

Quote
Ancient Waterways (5)
Action - Reaction

+1 Card
+1 Action
+$1
-
When you discard this card other than during your Clean-up phase, you may reveal it, to gain a copy of this.

Quote
Archaeologist (4)
Action   

+1 Action
Reveal the top 3 cards of your deck. Play a revealed Action card. If you do, trash it and gain a Treasure to your hand costing up to $1 more than that Action.

Quote
Artifact (4)
Treasure

Worth $1.
-
While this is in play, when you buy a Treasure, you may discard this, to play that Treasure and +1 Buy.

Quote
Cursed Idol (5)
Treasure - Reaction

Worth $3
-
When another player plays a Cursed Idol, you may reveal this from your hand. If you did, they gain 2 Curses.

Quote
Digsite (5)
Action

Reveal the top card of your deck.
If it's a Victory card, discard it. Otherwise, trash this card. If the revealed card costs...
$2 or less, +2VP.
$3 to $5, +3VP.
$6 or more, +4VP.

Quote
Earthmound Village (5)
Action

+1 Card.
+2 Actions.
Reveal your hand. If you revealed no Copper, +1 Buy and +$1.

Quote
Encroach (6)
Action

+2 Cards.
+1 Action.
Reveal a card from your hand. Gain a Victory card costing less than it onto your deck.

Quote
Excavate (4)
Action   

Reveal the top 5 cards of your deck. Put a revealed Treasure into your hand and the other Treasures on top or bottom of your deck. Discard the rest.

Quote
Graveyard (1)
Action

+2 Actions
-
When you trash this, gain a card from the trash.

Quote
Inspector (3)
Action - Attack

+2 Cards
Reveal then discard 2 cards.
Per card discarded, each other player with 4 or more cards in hand dicards a copy of it. (or reveals a hand with no copies.)

Quote
Megalith (7)
Action

+3 Cards.
Discard any number of Curse or Victory cards for +$1 each.

Quote
Mission House (4)
Action

+2 Cards
You may discard a Victory card from your hand. If you do, +1 VP.
If you have 6 or more VP tokens, +2 Actions.

Quote
Petroglyph (5)
Action

+1 Card.
+1 Action.
Discard any number of Victory cards, and gain a card costing up to $3, +$1 per card discarded.

Quote
Profiteer (4)
Action - Reaction

+$1
+1 Buy
Trash a non-Victory card from the Supply. +$1 per empty Supply pile.
-
When you would gain a card during your Action phase, you may discard this, to gain a card costing up to $2 more instead.

Quote
Prospector (2)
Action

+1 Card
+1 Action
Trash a Treasure from your hand. The player to your left chooses a Treasure in the Supply costing more then it. Gain a copy of that Treasure.

Quote
Pyramid (5)
Action

+$5
You may trash 2 cards from your hand.
Gain 2 Curses.

Quote
Riches (4)
Treasure

Worth $4
-
When you buy a card using this, trash all the other Treasures you used to buy that card.

Quote
Sarcophagus (6)
Action - Attack

Choose an Action card in the Supply costing up to $4.
Play that card three times, then trash it.
-
When you buy this each other player gains a Curse.

Quote
Shipwreck (4)(3?)
Action

Discard a card for +$2.
Put this onto of your deck.

Quote
Spelunker (4)
Action

+$1
Discard the top card of your deck. If it's an...
Action or Treasure card, trash it and gain a card costimg up to $3 more that shares a type.
Victory card, gain a Gold.

Quote
Stoneworks (5)
Action

+2 Cards
+1 Buy
Reveal any number of cards with the same name from your hand. Copies of those cards cost $2 less this turn, but not less than $0.

Quote
Tomb Guardian (4)
Action - Attack

+$2
You may gain a Curse, for +1 Action and +$1.
Each other player with 4 or more cards in hand puts 2 cards from their hand onto their deck.

Quote
Ziggurat (4)
Action

Look through your discard pile. Trash 2 differently named cards from it.
If you do, play a card from your discard pile.
      
Quote
Boulder Trap (3)
Trap   

-1 VP
-
Setup: Shuffle a copy of Boulder into each Supply pile
If the Boulder is at the top of a pile, trash it.
-
If you reveal this from the top of a Supply pile, put it on top of your deck.
-
When you discard this card other than during your Clean-up phase, put this onto the current player's deck.
-
When you trash this, each other player gains a Curse.
Title: Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: Asper on February 25, 2017, 10:04:18 am
Overall, I feel that the theme of discarding cards (which I've seen a few times now) is okay, but not so overly interesting that it really carries half a set. I mean, each card on its own might still be alright, but if the same mechanic is repeated over and over, it makes the individual seem less interesting in the end. Chancellor for example used to be unique - now that there are Scavanger and Messenger, it's just the worst of three and was justly killed ( :'( *sob*). This is not to discourage doing cards with a specific mechanic in general, just to say that I feel some mechanics are more fit to spread over a lot of cards than others...

That said, I'll try to give some helpful feedback on the individual cards:

Quote
Ancient Library (3?)
Action - Reaction
+1 Action
You may discard any number of cards.
Draw until you have 5 cards in hand.
-
When you discard this card any time other than during Clean-up, you can reveal it. If you do, draw a card.
This technically can lead to an infinite loop where you draw and discard it, but as revealing a Reaction is technically always possible unlimited times per trigger (e.g. putting back and drawing the same two cards with Secret Chamber) it's not actually a problem. The cost seems fine, as while it has a Reaction in addition to always drawing at least one card, it can't be used on large hands as well as Cellar. It's also of course a defense against discard attacks.


Quote
Ancient Markets (4)
Action - Reaction
+2 Actions.
+2 Money.
-
When you discard this card any time other than during Clean-up, you can reveal it to put a Copper from your discard pile into your hand.
Is there a reason this one excludes cleanup? It's not like taking that Copper would do you any good there. But I guess it's more consistent. Considering it has a Reaction and only lacks the buy of Festival, I'm pretty sure it can't cost 4$. After all, it's also more or less a Silver+, which is something that on these forums is often assumed to be unfitting at that price point (although there's no real evidence for why it shouldn't, so whatever - let's go with the Festival reasoning, though).
On another note, I'm not sure where the Reaction even has its uses. It doesn't defend against a Militia, or does it? Technically, I'm not even sure what happens if I have 4 cards in hand and discard this (or Ancient Library, for that matter). Did I discard down to 3 already and can keep the additional card? In that case, it's a pity these don't stack. And even with discard for benefit, which do I use this with? For Oasis I'd rather discard a Copper, which leaves me at the same money and an extra Action to spare. I'd even consider discarding Silver rather than this if I need that Action. So is all it does protect better stuff from your hand if you NEED to discard, but not to a certain limit? That seems really specific.

Quote
Ancient Temple (4)
Action - Reaction - Attack   
+2 Cards
Choose one: Trash up to two cards from your hand; or,
Gain +1 VP.
-
When you discard this card any time other than during Clean-up, you can reveal it. If you do, each other player gains a Curse.
This one doesn't need the Reaction in my opinion. Not only is the reaction not looking like all that much fun (e.g. if you just Cellar the same one three times a turn through your miniature deck), but it also already seems quite a bit better than Monument given its flexibility (it also can look down on Masquerade, btw).

Quote
Ancient Waterways (5)
Action - Reaction
+1 Card.
+1 Action.
+1 Money.
-
When you discard this card any time other than during Clean-up, you can reveal it to gain a copy of Ancient Waterways.
This seems balanced just fine. I still have a little complaint, though, as this card makes it rather clear where these designs differ from the official on-discard Reaction, Tunnel. You see, cantrips are often considered "invisible" cards, that is, they replace themselves on play. So one could argue you can never have too many cantrips. However, that's not true. As soon as discarding appears, cantrips suffer a loss in their strength. Sure a Pearl Diver doesn't harm my deck - but when a Militia is played, do I rather discard a Silver, or keep the Pearl Diver, hoping to guess whether the card I'll draw for it will be worth it? Tunnel doesn't have this issue -it's a Victory card, and Victory cards have less of a problem with discard attacks already. It also strengthens my deck further when it reacts. With Ancient Waterways, I can't help but worry that it really loses the comparison here. It actually hurts me to discard the card (or have to choose another one to discard instead), and even if I discard it, it doesn't actually solve the problem but arguably makes it worse. Of course this is theoretical, but I hope my point comes across.

Quote
Archaeologist (4)
Action
+1 Action.
Reveal the top 3 cards of your deck. Play an action card you revealed. If you do, trash it and gain a Treasure card costing up to 1 Money more than the trashed card, and put it into your hand.
I admit I find it hard to imagine which strategy or playing style this is designed for. It trashes Actions and adds treasures to my deck, so it helps me build a money deck? But it plays my actions and does nothing if I don't have Actions on top of my deck, so I wants an Action-dense deck? Somehow I feel what this card needs to work and what this card creates are two adverse things, and to tell the truth, I'm not sure the one-shot-super-Herold--Explorer-thing is good enough to make me want to trash my Labs for Gold. At the very least, I find it strange that it wants me to first go for a strategy to enable changing over to another. Sorry.

Quote
Artifact (4)
Treasure
1 Money.
While this is in play, when you buy a treasure, you can discard this card.
If you do, +1 Buy and put that treasure into play.
Technically, you'd have to play that other Treasure. While there never was a precedent for a Treasure being played mid-buy phase, I suppose this works. It doesn't look imbalanced to me, either. Maybe the wording could be overhauled a bit, but I fail to come up with a better one.

Quote
Cursed Idol (5)
Treasure - Reaction
3 Money.
At the end of your turn, if any player revealed a Cursed Idol when you played this card, gain two Curses.
-
Whenever an other player plays a Cursed Idol, you can reveal this from your hand.
Wording suggestion: (3$) When you play this, each other player may reveal a Cursed Idol from their hand. If anybody does, gain 2 Curses.
I also agree with the others that 2 Curses seems like an awful lot. What I personally don't like about this is the dilemma it puts a player in. If one of my opponents went for Cursed Idols, I an either have him keep those cheaper Golds without downsides, or get one of them myself, which now suddenly has a huge downside. In other words, I can watch an opponent have the advantage, or give myself a disadvantage to destroy his. So my personal suggestion would be to make the bane another card than Cursed Idol itself, preferably somethign available in every game (e.g. Silver, Province etc), and make the penalty less harsh. Something like:
Werewolf, Action, 5$: +4$. Each other player may reveal a Silver, and if anybody does, gain a Copper.


Quote
Digsite (5)
Victory - Action
Reveal the top card of your deck.
If it is a Victory Card, discard it. Otherwise, trash this card. If the revealed card costs...
$2 or less, +2VP.
$3 to $5, +3VP.
$6 or more, +4VP.
It's cool you took care this can't be spammed for unlimited VP, but the Distand Lands remark somebody made is valid.

Quote
Earthmound Village (5)
Action
+1 Card.
+2 Actions.
Reveal your hand.
If you revealed no Copper:
+1 Buy
+1 Money
Seems a bit weak compared to Bazaar.

Quote
Encroach (6)
Action
+2 Cards.
+1 Action.
Reveal a card from your hand. Gain a victory card costing less than the revealed card and put it on top of your deck.
I'm afraid that even while this costs 6$ itself, you'll usually have to reveal cards costing at most 5$, having to gain Estates. Not good. Then again, you could just as well reveal Copper to avoid the penalty altogether, which still makes for an expensive Lab. I can't quite tell whether it's intended that way and whether that is intended to be a nerf or advantage. If it's an advantage, why isn't it optional?


Gotta leave, will say stuff about the others another time. I'd like to add that while I complained, that's what I always do (including about my own stuff) and that it was high-level complaining for the most part here ;)
Title: Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: Neirai the Forgiven on February 25, 2017, 06:38:25 pm
Last night I played a game with a few of the worst offenders in the set. Here's a few thoughts:

-- I want to cap the 'take a VP token' part of Mission House at 6 VP. Before 6, it gains VP. After 6, it is +2 Actions.
-- I'm experimenting with Prospector discarding a Victory Card instead of trashing a treasure. But at that point it probably should not allow you to discard a Province to gain a 9+ cost treasure, since that would only work if Platinum was in play, but it's a pretty HUGE swing of money at that. Still, in a typical game it gives nothing for Provinces. If I go this route, it's easy enough to say 'discard a Victory card and gain a treasure costing up to $1 more' since that's what will happen in 90% of cases.
-- Ziggurat needs a tune-up for sure. The idea of discarding 3 cards from the deck if you have no discard pile is a good one. I'm also considering disconnecting the "Play a card from your discard pile" from the "trash 2 differently named cards from your discard pile" clause so that you don't have to do the trashing before playing, but I don't know off-hand how much that should cost.
-- Excavate really needs a tune-up although I think the LibraryAdventurer's suggestion of allowing you to discard whatever you want (except treasures) and then top-deck the rest is a good start.

-- Archaeologist. hrrrrm.
Arch started out its life as part of the Boulder Rules. Originally, the Boulder was just a curse with an additional stupid rule "if you reveal this as part of an attack, the player making the attack must trash an action from play" -- ruther stupid. But then I thought of making an action card that was a bit like Indiana Jones - another person gets killed by the trap (trash an action) so Indie can make off with the Treasure. As a benefit, you get to play the action AND the treasure for their full power. But when I think about this, you're 1) not controlling which action you trash and 2) you're having to play (and buy) a card to facilitate this, when buying and playing the treasure (and the action) is just as good if not better. So this needs a rework.
I'm playing around with the idea of the Archaeologist causing your opponents to reveal their hands, then each discards an action (attack? discards an attack or trashes a trap?) and you choose one Treasure card revealed this way and gain a copy and put it into play.
Actually you could probably justify this card without the discarding of the action, just gaining a copy of a revealed treasure into play.

One final thought: the reason the "Ancient" cycle of cards uses the Tunnel trigger is because at one point, their trigger was 'when this is revealed from your deck, discard it to....' that got confusing, and seemed quite specific a lot of the time, so I just stole the Tunnel trigger. A better trigger that still maintained the "a player hits you with a deck/hand attack but this card triggers" might be a good idea. That said, I don't want it just to be a 'when a player attacks you, do..." trigger.


Once again, thank you so much. My goal for the next two weeks is to nail down a card list (even if the rules still need balancing) so that I can send it off to my artist. This process is definitely helping. All of your time is very appreciated!
Title: Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: Jack Rudd on February 25, 2017, 06:38:57 pm
Artifact really, really needs to be playtested in a game with Gardens. I think it may be overpowered there.

ETA: OK, maybe not as overpowered as I originally thought, but still strong.
Title: Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: LibraryAdventurer on February 25, 2017, 09:24:49 pm
Artifact really, really needs to be playtested in a game with Gardens. I think it may be overpowered there.

ETA: OK, maybe not as overpowered as I originally thought, but still strong.
Probably not too overpowered when compared with Treasure Trove + Gardens.

...When I looked at Artifact again to see how it would work with Gardens, this is what I thought of:
LA plays Artifact.
LA buys Venture, discards Artifact with its reaction, plays Venture to redraw Artifact, plays the same Artifact again...
Title: Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: Neirai the Forgiven on February 25, 2017, 10:23:51 pm
Perhaps because I own every dominion set (and none of the promos  :'( ) and I tend to play them as straight random kingdoms, I'm not too worried about one card being OP when mixed with another one card... unless it's *insanely* OP or one of those cards is one of the base VPs/Treasures found in every game ever.

Specifically with the Venture/Artifact combo, you'd still have to pay for the Ventures, losing $5 each time. Although that would potentially just be a turn where you buy a lot of Ventures, which in my mind is almost never a bad thing.

To reply to LA's question about Riches, buying a card with two copies of Riches (likely a Province) will cause them to destroy each other. My playtests with Riches show that it's less powerful than a Horde or a Venture but more powerful than Royal Seals.
Title: Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: ThetaSigma12 on February 26, 2017, 07:51:46 am
Once again, thank you so much. My goal for the next two weeks is to nail down a card list (even if the rules still need balancing) so that I can send it off to my artist. This process is definitely helping. All of your time is very appreciated!
Well, maybe you should settle on card names first. A few comments (repeated some for completeness):

I don't like Ancient tacked on everything, even with the theme. Since it's not all in one pile like Castles, Ruins, and Knights, and Tunnel has the same reaction and no "Ancient Tunnel" it seems better to just give them normal names.

Since you're requesting art you might want to keep in mind that more official cards could be released and take that name. So I'd try to pick names that have a quick synonym you could swap for, like Artifact to Trinket or so.
Title: Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: Asper on February 26, 2017, 09:17:31 am
When we are talking about theme already, is "archeology" really that Dominion-y? I know many good themes are taken, but I can think of at least 2 major ones that are still available.
Title: Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: Neirai the Forgiven on February 27, 2017, 10:05:45 am
When we are talking about theme already, is "archeology" really that Dominion-y? I know many good themes are taken, but I can think of at least 2 major ones that are still available.

I selected Archaeology because I liked it ;) also because I started this project largely in a vacuum, and because Antiquity and Invention, my two expack ideas, were both selected after reading the back of the Empires box and thinking about a humorous 'next step' after you conquered the world: if you've expanded your kingdom in every (lateral) direction, the only remaining directions are down (Antiquity) and up (Invention.)

It's silly, but that's why.

Couple of notes:
1) I'm looking into good naming options to replace the Ancient ____ names.
2) I'm thinking that an interesting overhaul for Tomb Guardian, Cursed Idol, and Pyramid is to make them better when the Curses pile is empty. Pyramid already does this, since it makes you gain Curses unless there are none.
3) I'm giving digsite some special attention because it's quite useless at the moment. I'd like to keep some of the randomish flavor of "what of note will we dig up here? Maybe nothing, maybe something incredible." At the moment I'm testing it at a cheaper ($3) cost but then it might be ridiculously good.
Title: Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: Polk5440 on February 27, 2017, 10:08:55 am
When we are talking about theme already, is "archeology" really that Dominion-y? I know many good themes are taken, but I can think of at least 2 major ones that are still available.

Don't leave us hanging! What are they?
Title: Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: Asper on February 27, 2017, 11:14:36 am
When we are talking about theme already, is "archeology" really that Dominion-y? I know many good themes are taken, but I can think of at least 2 major ones that are still available.

Don't leave us hanging! What are they?

Art, including theatre, would be one. It could be called "Dominion - Encore". Think of Actors, Bards, Frescos, Statues, Patrons, Doubles, Stagewriters...

The other would be modernization. You know, "Dominion - Modern Times". It would cover the end of the middle Ages just like Empires covers... something preceding the middle ages. Although admittedly, this idea suffers from the presence of Prosperity (covers the new & improved aspect) and Alchemy (covers the "science" aspect). So okay, the second one maybe isn't that great after all...  :-[
But art, that looks promising.
Title: Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: ThetaSigma12 on February 27, 2017, 11:22:58 am
When we are talking about theme already, is "archeology" really that Dominion-y? I know many good themes are taken, but I can think of at least 2 major ones that are still available.

Don't leave us hanging! What are they?

Art, including theatre, would be one. It could be called "Dominion - Encore". Think of Actors, Bards, Frescos, Statues, Patrons, Doubles, Stagewriters...

The other would be modernization. You know, "Dominion - Modern Times". It would cover the end of the middle Ages just like Empires covers... something preceding the middle ages. Although admittedly, this idea suffers from the presence of Prosperity (covers the new & improved aspect) and Alchemy (covers the "science" aspect). So okay, the second one maybe isn't that great after all...  :-[
But art, that looks promising.
Or, since I know how much you love the Roman theme of Empires Asper, Dominion: Odessy! Featuring the best of Greek culture and it's sequel, Dominion: Pyramids, going back to 3000 B.C, and wrap it all up with Dinosaurminion.
Title: Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: Neirai the Forgiven on February 27, 2017, 11:42:32 am
When we are talking about theme already, is "archeology" really that Dominion-y? I know many good themes are taken, but I can think of at least 2 major ones that are still available.

Don't leave us hanging! What are they?

Art, including theatre, would be one. It could be called "Dominion - Encore". Think of Actors, Bards, Frescos, Statues, Patrons, Doubles, Stagewriters...

The other would be modernization. You know, "Dominion - Modern Times". It would cover the end of the middle Ages just like Empires covers... something preceding the middle ages. Although admittedly, this idea suffers from the presence of Prosperity (covers the new & improved aspect) and Alchemy (covers the "science" aspect). So okay, the second one maybe isn't that great after all...  :-[
But art, that looks promising.

My ideas for "Invention" are basically a pack containing the mechanics of debt, coin tokens, and potions, mixed with a new collaborative-ish mechanic that I'm still working on (the idea at the moment is a central pool of 'shared' cards of some sort) and would be themed around the industrial revolution, but with an alchemist twist. But frankly I haven't given it much thought.

An idea card:

Quote
Whirling Dynamo:
+3 Actions
When you Clean this up, put it in the Collaboration zone.
When you take this out of the Collaboration zone, take a Coin token for each Whirling Dynamo in the zone.
(Whenever you shuffle your deck, take a card out of the zone and put it into your hand.)

Another one:
Quote
Steam Knight:
+$1
You can pay any number of Coin tokens. Each opponent reveals that number of cards and trashes one costing between $3 and $6 that you choose.
If you paid any Coin tokens, +2 Cards

...It's bad so far, but I wanted to do something very different.
Title: Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: ThetaSigma12 on February 27, 2017, 12:10:34 pm
Steam Knight seems cool, but I'd swap the +2 Cards for take a coin token. The Collaboration zone seems cool, but I don't like the mechanic. Maybe if the cards would just let you take cards out?
Title: Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: Asper on February 27, 2017, 01:27:25 pm
When we are talking about theme already, is "archeology" really that Dominion-y? I know many good themes are taken, but I can think of at least 2 major ones that are still available.

Don't leave us hanging! What are they?

Art, including theatre, would be one. It could be called "Dominion - Encore". Think of Actors, Bards, Frescos, Statues, Patrons, Doubles, Stagewriters...

The other would be modernization. You know, "Dominion - Modern Times". It would cover the end of the middle Ages just like Empires covers... something preceding the middle ages. Although admittedly, this idea suffers from the presence of Prosperity (covers the new & improved aspect) and Alchemy (covers the "science" aspect). So okay, the second one maybe isn't that great after all...  :-[
But art, that looks promising.
Or, since I know how much you love the Roman theme of Empires Asper, Dominion: Odessy! Featuring the best of Greek culture and it's sequel, Dominion: Pyramids, going back to 3000 B.C, and wrap it all up with Dinosaurminion.

Dinosaurminion sounds hilarious. Make it a time-travel set and also include steampunks & robots.
Mechanic: Cards that do something in  previous turns :P
Title: Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: Neirai the Forgiven on February 27, 2017, 03:37:13 pm
Mind you, you could have Actions that trigger before you buy them.

"You may play this card from the supply. If you do, you must buy it during that turn's Buy phase. If you do not, you gain X -1VP tokens."
Title: Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: Neirai the Forgiven on February 27, 2017, 04:32:32 pm
Since you're requesting art you might want to keep in mind that more official cards could be released and take that name. So I'd try to pick names that have a quick synonym you could swap for, like Artifact to Trinket or so.

Back on topic, the art I'm requesting is just the inset. I'll be using the card generator site to wrap the inset art. So if I have to change a name, I'll be fine.

That said, I'm trying out the names "Atheneum", "Agora", "Pantheon", and "Puquio" for the ancient cards, but they don't make a lot of sense unless you know that they are :S
Title: Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: ThetaSigma12 on February 27, 2017, 04:36:32 pm
Since you're requesting art you might want to keep in mind that more official cards could be released and take that name. So I'd try to pick names that have a quick synonym you could swap for, like Artifact to Trinket or so.

Back on topic, the art I'm requesting is just the inset. I'll be using the card generator site to wrap the inset art. So if I have to change a name, I'll be fine.
? I don't understand.
Title: Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: Neirai the Forgiven on February 27, 2017, 04:40:36 pm
Since you're requesting art you might want to keep in mind that more official cards could be released and take that name. So I'd try to pick names that have a quick synonym you could swap for, like Artifact to Trinket or so.

Back on topic, the art I'm requesting is just the inset. I'll be using the card generator site to wrap the inset art. So if I have to change a name, I'll be fine.
? I don't understand.
I'm getting art for the card picture, but the card itself will be generated.

Of course now that I think more on what you said I realize that you mean "pick art that can be used if you have to change the name of the card." In other words, perhaps "Puquio" is a bad name because if for some bizarre reason there becomes an official Puquio, that picture won't work for anything else.

(a Puquio is a Nazca waterhole.)
Title: Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: McGarnacle on February 27, 2017, 06:48:05 pm
When we are talking about theme already, is "archeology" really that Dominion-y? I know many good themes are taken, but I can think of at least 2 major ones that are still available.

Don't leave us hanging! What are they?

Art, including theatre, would be one. It could be called "Dominion - Encore". Think of Actors, Bards, Frescos, Statues, Patrons, Doubles, Stagewriters...

The other would be modernization. You know, "Dominion - Modern Times". It would cover the end of the middle Ages just like Empires covers... something preceding the middle ages. Although admittedly, this idea suffers from the presence of Prosperity (covers the new & improved aspect) and Alchemy (covers the "science" aspect). So okay, the second one maybe isn't that great after all...  :-[
But art, that looks promising.

I've thought about a modern Dominion like you mentioned. My idea was Dominion: Industry. Maybe an Alchemy + Guilds sequel? Cool stuff.
Title: Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: Neirai the Forgiven on February 28, 2017, 09:41:04 am
Actually, you can kill two birds with one stone by making a "Renaissance" set (since that's what logically follows after 'generic medieval' and Dark Ages Dominion) that has all your arts (and some science) mechanics as well as being more modern than standard Dominion.

Card ideas would include a Painter, Musician, Actor, and Sculptor cycle as well as a 'Master' card which plays another Action card but increases its powers, and a 'Polymath' card which gains power based on all the other abilities in play.
Title: Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: Asper on February 28, 2017, 09:52:54 am
Actually, you can kill two birds with one stone by making a "Renaissance" set (since that's what logically follows after 'generic medieval' and Dark Ages Dominion) that has all your arts (and some science) mechanics as well as being more modern than standard Dominion.

But killing two birds with one stone means you have less birds left afterwards.
Title: Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: Neirai the Forgiven on February 28, 2017, 10:00:54 am
Actually, you can kill two birds with one stone by making a "Renaissance" set (since that's what logically follows after 'generic medieval' and Dark Ages Dominion) that has all your arts (and some science) mechanics as well as being more modern than standard Dominion.

But killing two birds with one stone means you have less birds left afterwards.

This is truth.
Title: Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: Neirai the Forgiven on March 08, 2017, 11:54:47 pm
The greatest thing about submitting this set into the gauntlet of theorycrafter review is how much better it plays now!

Here (at long last) is an update.
Apologies in advance for any de-volution in card text accuracy.
As I am approaching my deadline, the cards are unlikely to change *much* from now on but please continue to critique them. They are much stronger now than they were before.

Quote
Petroglyph (4)   
Action - Reaction   
+1 Action
Discard any number of cards, then draw until you have 5 cards in hand.
-
When you discard this card any time other than during Clean-up, you can reveal it and set it aside.
If you do, discard it at the start of your next turn and draw a Card.

Quote
Agora (5)
Action - Reaction
+2 Actions
+$2
-
When you discard this card other than during your Clean-up phase, you may reveal it to gain a Silver and put it in your hand.

Quote
Obelisk (5)
Action - Reaction - Attack
+2 Cards
You may trash two differently named cards from your hand. If you do, +[VP per $2 one of them costs.
-
When you discard this card any time other than during Clean-up, you can reveal it. If you do, each other player gains a Curse.

Quote
Aquifer (5)
Action - Reaction
+1 Card
+$1
You may play an Aquifer from your hand.
-
When you discard this card any time other than during Clean-up, you can reveal it to gain an Aquifer.

Quote
Tomb Raider (4)
Action
+1 Action
Each opponent discards an attack card (or reveals a hand containing no attacks.)
You may gain a copy of a Treasure revealed this way.
Yes, this card will have a depiction of Lara Croft (as a medieval dominion character) on it.

Quote
Artifact (4)
Treasure
$1
While this is in play, when you buy a Treasure, you may discard this to play that Treasure and +1 Buy.

Quote
Idol (4)
Treasure
$3
While this is in play, when you buy a card, put it on your Idol mat.
If it a Curse, start a new turn with all of the cards from your Idol mat as your hand.
Wording advice on this would be appreciated.

Quote
Digsite (6)
Victory
Reveal the top card of your deck.
If it's a Victory card, discard it. Otherwise, trash this card. If the revealed card costs...
$2 or less, +4%.
$3 to $5, +5%.
$6 or more, +6%.

Quote
Earthmound Village (5)
Action
+1 Card
+2 Actions
Reveal your hand. If you revealed no Copper, +1 Card, +1 Buy and +$1.
I'm debating removing the second +1 Card.

Quote
Encroach (6)
Action
+2 Cards.
+1 Action.
Reveal a card from your hand. Gain a Victory card costing less than it onto your deck.

Quote
Excavate (4)
Action
+1 Buy
Reveal the top 5 cards of your deck.
Put a revealed Treasure into your hand.
You may discard any non-Treasure cards. Put the rest on top of your deck in any order.

Quote
Graveyard (1)
Action
+2 Actions
-
When you trash this, gain a card from the trash.

Quote
Inspector (3)
Action - Attack
+2 Cards
Reveal then discard 2 cards.
Per card discarded, each other player with 4 or more cards in hand dicards a copy of it (or reveals a hand with no copies.)

Quote
Archaeologist (7)
Action
+3 Cards.
As you draw these cards, you may set aside up to 3 Cards and draw replacements for them, discarding them afterwards.

Quote
Mission (4)
Action
+2 Cards
If you have less than 6 VP tokens, you may discard a Victory card. If you do, take a VP token.
If you have 6 or more VP tokens, +2 Actions.

Quote
Anthropologist (5)
Action
Play each of the cards set aside by Anthropologist in any order, then end your Action phase.
-
When you buy this, set aside an Action card from the supply other than Anthropologist that costs exactly $3 more than the number of cards you have set aside with Anthropologist.
-
Setup: Add an Action pile costing $3 and an Action pile costing $4 to the Supply.
This is a recent addition... it's still being tested for balance/suitability.

Quote
Profiteer (4)
Action - Reaction
+$1
+1 Buy
Trash a non-Victory card from the Supply. +$1 per empty Supply pile.
-
When you would gain a card during your Action phase, you may discard this to gain a card costing up to $2 more instead.

Quote
Prospector (3)
Action
+1 Card
+1 Action
You may discard a Victory card to gain a Treasure costing up to $1 more than it.

Quote
Pyramid (5)   Action   " +$5
Trash 2 cards from your hand.
Gain 2 Curses.

Quote
Riches (4)
Treasure
$4
When you buy a card using this, trash all the other treasures you used to buy that card.

Quote
Sarcophagus (6)
Action - Attack
Choose an Action card in the Supply costing up to $4.
Play that card three times, then trash it.
-
When you buy this each other player gains a Curse.

Quote
Shipwreck (5)
Action
+2 Cards
+$2
+1 Buy
When you buy this, trash any Treasure cards you have in play.
Does the cost (and the additional cost) balance the inherent power of this card?

Quote
Collector (4)
Action
+$2
Reveal and trash the top card of your deck to gain a card that shares a type with it that costs up to $3 more.

Quote
Stoneworks (5)
Action
+2 Cards
+1 Buy
You may reveal two cards with the same name from your hand.
If the revealed cards are Victory cards, trash this.
Cards with the same name as those cards cost $2 less this turn, but not less than $0.

Quote
Tomb Guardian (4)   Action - Attack   
+$2
You may gain a Curse card. If you did, +1 Action, +$1.
If the Curse pile is empty, each other player with 4 or more cards in hand puts 2 cards from their hand onto their deck.

Quote
Ziggurat (4)
Action
You may discard cards from the top of your deck until there are 3 cards in your discard pile.
You may trash up to two cards from your discard pile.
If you trashed a card, you may play a card from your discard pile.
      
Quote
Boulder Trap (3)
Trap
-1 VP
Setup: Shuffle a Boulder into each Supply pile.
If the Boulder is at the top of a pile, trash it.
-
If you reveal this from the top of a Supply pile, put it onto your deck.
-
When you discard this card on another player's turn, put this onto that player's deck.
-
When you trash this, each other player gains a Curse.
Title: Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: LibraryAdventurer on March 10, 2017, 02:43:52 am
I'm only commenting here on the ones that I think need improvement. Which means all the others look good to me.

Quote
Obelisk (5)
Action - Reaction - Attack
+2 Cards
You may trash two differently named cards from your hand. If you do, +[VP per $2 one of them costs.
-
When you discard this card any time other than during Clean-up, you can reveal it. If you do, each other player gains a Curse.
This could often make discard attacks not worth buying. It would stink to have this on a board with Margrave as the only decent draw or +buy, but I guess it wouldn't be any worse than other cursers.

Quote
Aquifer (5)
Action - Reaction
+1 Card
+$1
You may play an Aquifer from your hand.
-
When you discard this card any time other than during Clean-up, you can reveal it to gain an Aquifer.
Why limit the +action on this?  I think your first version (Ancient Waterways) was fine, but I probably wouldn't buy this version. too weak.

Quote
Earthmound Village (5)
Action
+1 Card
+2 Actions
Reveal your hand. If you revealed no Copper, +1 Card, +1 Buy and +$1.
I'm debating removing the second +1 Card.
I suggest you do remove the 2nd +card. This is (often) much easier to activate than city.

Quote
Encroach (6)
Action
+2 Cards.
+1 Action.
Reveal a card from your hand. Gain a Victory card costing less than it onto your deck.
I still don't see the appeal of this card. I guess it could combo with Groundskeeper/Duke along with some gold, but usually I wouldn't want it.

Quote
Inspector (3)
Action - Attack
+2 Cards
Reveal then discard 2 cards.
Per card discarded, each other player with 4 or more cards in hand dicards a copy of it (or reveals a hand with no copies.)
This attack could sometimes be really mean/swingy/political, especially if you can reveal your opponents' hands before playing this (or play two).

Quote
Archaeologist (7)
Action
+3 Cards.
As you draw these cards, you may set aside up to 3 Cards and draw replacements for them, discarding them afterwards.
I think this would be fine costing $5. The "up to 3" is enough of a limitation. Anyway, it seems too similar to Catacombs. I guess the draw part is strictly better than Catacombs, but not by much and Catacombs has the on-trash benefit, so I still think it'd be okay at $5.

Quote
Mission (4)
Action
+2 Cards
If you have less than 6 VP tokens, you may discard a Victory card. If you do, take a VP token.
If you have 6 or more VP tokens, +2 Actions.
I like this one, but could still be overpowered when combined with other ways of getting VP tokens.

Quote
Anthropologist (5)
Action
Play each of the cards set aside by Anthropologist in any order, then end your Action phase.
-
When you buy this, set aside an Action card from the supply other than Anthropologist that costs exactly $3 more than the number of cards you have set aside with Anthropologist.
-
Setup: Add an Action pile costing $3 and an Action pile costing $4 to the Supply.
This is really confusing. What do you set aside when you buy one without having any cards already set aside?

Quote
Riches (4)
Treasure
$4
When you buy a card using this, trash all the other treasures you used to buy that card.
Still don't know what happens when you buy something with more than one Riches in play. I would think the two Riches each cause the other to be trashed? (Forgot your earlier post (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=17014.msg679817#msg679817) when I wrote this.)
Also, still overpowered with vitual coin.

Quote
Sarcophagus (6)
Action - Attack
Choose an Action card in the Supply costing up to $4.
Play that card three times, then trash it.
-
When you buy this each other player gains a Curse.
Does this need the on-buy attack?

Quote
Shipwreck (5)
Action
+2 Cards
+$2
+1 Buy
When you buy this, trash any Treasure cards you have in play.
Does the cost (and the additional cost) balance the inherent power of this card?
No. The on-buy effect is helpful, not a drawback at all (see Mint). This might be okay costing $6.

Quote
Tomb Guardian (4)   Action - Attack   
+$2
You may gain a Curse card. If you did, +1 Action, +$1.
If the Curse pile is empty, each other player with 4 or more cards in hand puts 2 cards from their hand onto their deck.
Would be better with Ghost Ship's wording "...until he has 3 cards in hand." Otherwise, players with 4 cards in hand end up with 2.
Title: Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: Neirai the Forgiven on March 10, 2017, 03:40:26 pm
Once again, thanks so much for the feedback. I realize it's all complaints  :o but how else will the set get stronger?

Quote
Aquifer (5)
Action - Reaction
+1 Card
+$1
You may play an Aquifer from your hand.
-
When you discard this card any time other than during Clean-up, you can reveal it to gain an Aquifer.
Why limit the +action on this?  I think your first version (Ancient Waterways) was fine, but I probably wouldn't buy this version. too weak.
I kept having games where I rapidly picked up most of the Aquifers, and while I felt that was okay, chaining them into other cards (with +draws) felt somewhat too powerful. That was my thinking, anyhow. Alternatively, I could make it work more like a Crossroads, where the +Actions is limited to the first time you play one per turn.

Quote
Earthmound Village (5)
Action
+1 Card
+2 Actions
Reveal your hand. If you revealed no Copper, +1 Card, +1 Buy and +$1.
I'm debating removing the second +1 Card.
I suggest you do remove the 2nd +card. This is (often) much easier to activate than city.
You aren't the only person to say this, as it was a common comment by my playtesters. I will remove the 2nd +card.

Quote
Encroach (6)
Action
+2 Cards.
+1 Action.
Reveal a card from your hand. Gain a Victory card costing less than it onto your deck.
I still don't see the appeal of this card. I guess it could combo with Groundskeeper/Duke along with some gold, but usually I wouldn't want it.
I'm thinking of reworking it a bit to make it a bit more attractive; replace the reveal with a discard a treasure, gain a Victory card costing up to 2 more, put it on your deck.

Quote
Inspector (3)
Action - Attack
+2 Cards
Reveal then discard 2 cards.
Per card discarded, each other player with 4 or more cards in hand discards a copy of it (or reveals a hand with no copies.)
This attack could sometimes be really mean/swingy/political, especially if you can reveal your opponents' hands before playing this (or play two).
I'm thinking I'll nerf this down to only cause a discard of one matching card. Although a player still has to do to himself the same thing that he's doing to his enemies.

Quote
Archaeologist (7)
Action
+3 Cards.
As you draw these cards, you may set aside up to 3 Cards and draw replacements for them, discarding them afterwards.
I think this would be fine costing $5. The "up to 3" is enough of a limitation. Anyway, it seems too similar to Catacombs. I guess the draw part is strictly better than Catacombs, but not by much and Catacombs has the on-trash benefit, so I still think it'd be okay at $5.
The idea is a library that draws cards when you are full up on cards, with a (limited) ability to choose the cards.
Mind you it might make more sense (and be more cost-appropriate) if it simply draws 6 cards and lets you pick 3 of them.

Quote
Anthropologist (5)
Action
Play each of the cards set aside by Anthropologist in any order, then end your Action phase.
-
When you buy this, set aside an Action card from the supply other than Anthropologist that costs exactly $3 more than the number of cards you have set aside with Anthropologist.
-
Setup: Add an Action pile costing $3 and an Action pile costing $4 to the Supply.
This is really confusing. What do you set aside when you buy one without having any cards already set aside?
You set aside an Action card costing $3. But if it's super confusing, it might need to be written better. It's also currently under a lot of testing. The idea is to make a card that lets you play a chain of terminals without having them in your deck. Also I've found that it's hard to cost (go figure.)

Quote
Sarcophagus (6)
Action - Attack
Choose an Action card in the Supply costing up to $4.
Play that card three times, then trash it.
-
When you buy this each other player gains a Curse.
Does this need the on-buy attack?
It's literally just flavor. It's the coffin of a pharoah.

Quote
Shipwreck (5)
Action
+2 Cards
+$2
+1 Buy
When you buy this, trash any Treasure cards you have in play.
Does the cost (and the additional cost) balance the inherent power of this card?
No. The on-buy effect is helpful, not a drawback at all (see Mint). This might be okay costing $6.
Thanks. I want some sort of extra cost that simulates a shipwreck occuring, but not sure what.

Quote
Tomb Guardian (4)   Action - Attack   
+$2
You may gain a Curse card. If you did, +1 Action, +$1.
If the Curse pile is empty, each other player with 4 or more cards in hand puts 2 cards from their hand onto their deck.
Would be better with Ghost Ship's wording "...until he has 3 cards in hand." Otherwise, players with 4 cards in hand end up with 2.
Will do.
Title: Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: Neirai the Forgiven on March 13, 2017, 10:46:26 am
Quote
Shipwreck (5)
Action
+2 Cards
+$2
+1 Buy
When you buy this, reveal the top 5 cards of your deck, discard any revealed Treasures, and put the rest back.
Variant Shipwreck.
Title: Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: Neirai the Forgiven on March 22, 2017, 12:35:15 pm
It's come to my attention that the set lacks $2 and $3 cost cards, so I'm trying a varient of the Shipwreck as a $2 card. The question is whether it's viable at all now:

Quote
Shipwreck (2)
Action
+1 Cards
+$1
+1 Buy
When you buy this, reveal the top 5 cards of your deck, discard any revealed Treasures, and put the rest back.
Title: Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: Asper on March 22, 2017, 07:32:23 pm
It's come to my attention that the set lacks $2 and $3 cost cards, so I'm trying a varient of the Shipwreck as a $2 card. The question is whether it's viable at all now:

Quote
Shipwreck (2)
Action
+1 Cards
+$1
+1 Buy
When you buy this, reveal the top 5 cards of your deck, discard any revealed Treasures, and put the rest back.

Doesn't look worthwile. You'll find that no official kingdom card gives you terminal +1 Card, simply because it makes you draw stuff dead without being good enough as the draw in an engine. Generally I discourage trying to shoehorn an idea to fit a certain price point. Never worked too well for me, at least.
Title: Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: majiponi on March 23, 2017, 11:53:24 am
It's come to my attention that the set lacks $2 and $3 cost cards, so I'm trying a varient of the Shipwreck as a $2 card. The question is whether it's viable at all now:

Quote
Shipwreck (2)
Action
+1 Cards
+$1
+1 Buy
When you buy this, reveal the top 5 cards of your deck, discard any revealed Treasures, and put the rest back.

Doesn't look worthwile. You'll find that no official kingdom card gives you terminal +1 Card, simply because it makes you draw stuff dead without being good enough as the draw in an engine. Generally I discourage trying to shoehorn an idea to fit a certain price point. Never worked too well for me, at least.
How about Pawn?
Quote
Shipwreck
cost $2 - Action - Duration
Choose one: +1 Card; +1 Action; +1 Buy; +$1.
At the start of your next turn, do the others.

When you buy this, reveal the top 3 cards of your deck, discard any revealed treasures, and the put rest back.
Title: Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: Neirai the Forgiven on March 23, 2017, 03:21:43 pm
How about Pawn?
Quote
Shipwreck
cost $2 - Action - Duration
Choose one: +1 Card; +1 Action; +1 Buy; +$1.
At the start of your next turn, do the others.

When you buy this, reveal the top 3 cards of your deck, discard any revealed treasures, and the put rest back.

I specifically wanted to avoid Duration cards in this deck ("Then why did you make a naval-themed card?") but that "choose a thing, then do the others later" is an interesting mechanic.
I'm tempted to make a variant where it chooses all on trash, or maybe if gained during your action phase.
Title: Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: Asper on March 23, 2017, 03:37:44 pm
It's come to my attention that the set lacks $2 and $3 cost cards, so I'm trying a varient of the Shipwreck as a $2 card. The question is whether it's viable at all now:

Quote
Shipwreck (2)
Action
+1 Cards
+$1
+1 Buy
When you buy this, reveal the top 5 cards of your deck, discard any revealed Treasures, and put the rest back.

Doesn't look worthwile. You'll find that no official kingdom card gives you terminal +1 Card, simply because it makes you draw stuff dead without being good enough as the draw in an engine. Generally I discourage trying to shoehorn an idea to fit a certain price point. Never worked too well for me, at least.
How about Pawn?

Pawn obviously won't be a terminal +1 Card if you don't want it to be that. That's as if I said "There's no non-tfb card that makes you trash an Action card from your hand." and you say "What about Chapel? I totes can trash King's Court with Chapel.". Yes, you can, but it's not the card that makes you do it, it's you who choses to play it to your disadvantage. And when it happens to be a good idea (e.g. because Tomb's there), you can still do that. That's not the same as being forced to play that way.
Title: Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: LastFootnote on March 23, 2017, 03:49:22 pm
The names "Obelisk" and "Mission" are already used by published Dominion cards.
Title: Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: Neirai the Forgiven on March 23, 2017, 03:55:36 pm
The names "Obelisk" and "Mission" are already used by published Dominion cards.

Eek, good catch! I recently renamed them and forgot to search the wiki/card lists for the names despite doing so previous. Thanks so much for this!
Update: Obelisk renamed to "Monolith". Mission renamed to "Mission House" (because it's supposed to be a Missionary Outpost of sorts)
Title: Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: Aquila on March 23, 2017, 08:06:19 pm
A few observations:

Quote
Petroglyph (4)   
Action - Reaction   
+1 Action
Discard any number of cards, then draw until you have 5 cards in hand.
-
When you discard this card any time other than during Clean-up, you can reveal it and set it aside.
If you do, discard it at the start of your next turn and draw a Card.
The way the wording on the reaction part reads, when you discard it from setting it aside, it can still be seen as discarding other than during cleanup and you could choose to set it aside again. This can be a nifty choice you can make, if you draw a good hand and don't need the extra card. You could even stock them up and draw several cards at once for a mega turn. It's a nice feature, I just wonder if it was intended.

Quote
Obelisk (5)
Action - Reaction - Attack
+2 Cards
You may trash two differently named cards from your hand. If you do, +[VP per $2 one of them costs.
-
When you discard this card any time other than during Clean-up, you can reveal it. If you do, each other player gains a Curse.
Agree with the comments made on the reaction part. The top part alone looks strong compared to Bishop, with the card draw as well, but the trashing two different cards may be enough of a setback. Either way, you'll need to say '(round down)' for odd-number costs.

Quote
Tomb Raider (4)
Action
+1 Action
Each opponent discards an attack card (or reveals a hand containing no attacks.)
You may gain a copy of a Treasure revealed this way.
Maybe have them reveal their hand regardless? In games with no attacks this seems to just be Ruined Village. I guess this needs the Attack type anyway, to help here, so like this:
Quote
Tomb Raider (4)
Action Attack
+1 Action
Each opponent reveals his hand and discards an Attack card.
You may gain a copy of a Treasure revealed this way.
Edited: (But then if this is the only Attack in a game, will it ever be bought?) It can become a lesser Hero in gaining any treasure, which is fine, it just runs the risk of clashing with the opponent's Tomb Raider.

Quote
Idol (4)
Treasure
$3
While this is in play, when you buy a card, put it on your Idol mat.
If it a Curse, start a new turn with all of the cards from your Idol mat as your hand.
Wording advice on this would be appreciated.
An interesting card. Just to make it more like Outpost's ​wording:
Quote
While this is in play, when you buy a card, put it on your Idol mat.
If it is a Curse, take another turn after this one, with all of the cards from your Idol mat as your hand.
And I don't suppose it needs to let you only take one extra turn. I don't think you can take infinite turns with it as you're forced to buy another Idol and Curse, and no one action can give enough buys and $. Well, with Ferry and Seaway it might be possible...but it only ends the game on 3 piles with you on numerous Curses, so all good.

Quote
Inspector (3)
Action - Attack
+2 Cards
Reveal then discard 2 cards.
Per card discarded, each other player with 4 or more cards in hand dicards a copy of it (or reveals a hand with no copies.)
I assume you reveal from your hand?

Quote
Riches (4)
Treasure
$4
When you buy a card using this, trash all the other treasures you used to buy that card.
I like the potential in this one. So you only buy one, and this ultimately becomes the only Treasure in the deck, and so it sets up engines. I think it needs virtual coin to work rather than make it OP, as other Treasures are almost worthless as one-shots (buy a gold for 6, it pays back only half of that). I have two questions with this: is 4 the right price for it? You can easily get a 5-8 cost card by turn 4, and trash some coppers at the same time. Which leads to, how do you declare what Treasures you use to pay for cards? Suppose I have a hand of Riches and 3 Coppers and want to buy a 4 cost card. Can I declare paying the three Coppers on it, perhaps by playing them first, or would the Riches always be the whole cost?

Quote
Collector (4)
Action
+$2
Reveal and trash the top card of your deck to gain a card that shares a type with it that costs up to $3 more.
Mine deals exclusively with Treasures and costs 5. Rebuild does Victories and is 5, and Expand is 7. I doubt the randomness and same-type restriction reduces the cost that much, especially as it doesn't interfere with your hand.

Quote
Ziggurat (4)
Action
You may discard cards from the top of your deck until there are 3 cards in your discard pile.
You may trash up to two cards from your discard pile.
If you trashed a card, you may play a card from your discard pile.
Can it play a Treasure? Could you bring an Estate or another pure Victory into play to Bonfire it?
Title: Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: LibraryAdventurer on March 23, 2017, 08:18:55 pm
Quote
Riches (4)
Treasure
$4
When you buy a card using this, trash all the other treasures you used to buy that card.
I like the potential in this one. So you only buy one, and this ultimately becomes the only Treasure in the deck, and so it sets up engines. I think it needs virtual coin to work rather than make it OP, as other Treasures are almost worthless as one-shots (buy a gold for 6, it pays back only half of that). I have two questions with this: is 4 the right price for it? You can easily get a 5-8 cost card by turn 4, and trash some coppers at the same time. Which leads to, how do you declare what Treasures you use to pay for cards? Suppose I have a hand of Riches and 3 Coppers and want to buy a 4 cost card. Can I declare paying the three Coppers on it, perhaps by playing them first, or would the Riches always be the whole cost?
What do you mean 'declare'?
If you want to trash the coppers, then play them with the riches. If not, you can buy the (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/2/2a/Coin4.png/16px-Coin4.png)cost card with only the Riches.
That said, the wording on this card needs to be improved. It should say "trash all the other treasures you have in play."
Title: Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: ConMan on March 24, 2017, 02:26:16 am
The problem, I think, is that the wording of the card suggests that you're somehow keeping track of where the coins came from that you're using to buy a card, which has never been necessary before. For example, if I have 2 Buys, and I play Riches, a Silver and a Copper, can I buy a Duchy and an Estate and claim that I only "used" the Riches and the Copper to buy the Duchy, so only the Copper gets trashed?

I agree that a more manageable wording would be something like "When you buy a card with this in play, trash all non-Riches Treasures you have in play", but does that line up with the intended design?
Title: Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: Asper on March 24, 2017, 09:42:57 am
The problem, I think, is that the wording of the card suggests that you're somehow keeping track of where the coins came from that you're using to buy a card, which has never been necessary before. For example, if I have 2 Buys, and I play Riches, a Silver and a Copper, can I buy a Duchy and an Estate and claim that I only "used" the Riches and the Copper to buy the Duchy, so only the Copper gets trashed?

I agree that a more manageable wording would be something like "When you buy a card with this in play, trash all non-Riches Treasures you have in play", but does that line up with the intended design?
One noteworthy difference to me seems to be that two Riches with the original wording seem capable of trashing each other. That's easily remedied, though.
Title: Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: Neirai the Forgiven on March 24, 2017, 09:59:30 am
The problem, I think, is that the wording of the card suggests that you're somehow keeping track of where the coins came from that you're using to buy a card, which has never been necessary before. For example, if I have 2 Buys, and I play Riches, a Silver and a Copper, can I buy a Duchy and an Estate and claim that I only "used" the Riches and the Copper to buy the Duchy, so only the Copper gets trashed?

I agree that a more manageable wording would be something like "When you buy a card with this in play, trash all non-Riches Treasures you have in play", but does that line up with the intended design?
One noteworthy difference to me seems to be that two Riches with the original wording seem capable of trashing each other. That's easily remedied, though.

The main reason for that odd wording was to ensure that buying multiple cards wouldn't kill your Treasures immediately; that said it's probably better to just say "If this is in play, when you clean this up, trash all other Treasures you have in play." (of course in better language)

Edit: "At the end of your buy phase, if you bought a card while this was in play, trash all the other treasures you have in play."?
Title: Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: Neirai the Forgiven on March 24, 2017, 03:01:11 pm
A few observations:

Quote
Petroglyph (4)   
Action - Reaction   
+1 Action
Discard any number of cards, then draw until you have 5 cards in hand.
-
When you discard this card any time other than during Clean-up, you can reveal it and set it aside.
If you do, discard it at the start of your next turn and draw a Card.
The way the wording on the reaction part reads, when you discard it from setting it aside, it can still be seen as discarding other than during cleanup and you could choose to set it aside again. This can be a nifty choice you can make, if you draw a good hand and don't need the extra card. You could even stock them up and draw several cards at once for a mega turn. It's a nice feature, I just wonder if it was intended.
Not intended, but I might just keep it....

Quote
Quote
Obelisk (5)
Action - Reaction - Attack
+2 Cards
You may trash two differently named cards from your hand. If you do, +[VP per $2 one of them costs.
-
When you discard this card any time other than during Clean-up, you can reveal it. If you do, each other player gains a Curse.
Agree with the comments made on the reaction part. The top part alone looks strong compared to Bishop, with the card draw as well, but the trashing two different cards may be enough of a setback. Either way, you'll need to say '(round down)' for odd-number costs.
"1 VP per $2" already implies round down.
I've changed the reaction to "When you discard this on another player's turn...."

Quote
Quote
Inspector (3)
Action - Attack
+2 Cards
Reveal then discard 2 cards.
Per card discarded, each other player with 4 or more cards in hand dicards a copy of it (or reveals a hand with no copies.)
I assume you reveal from your hand?
Yes.

Quote
Quote
Collector (4)
Action
+$2
Reveal and trash the top card of your deck to gain a card that shares a type with it that costs up to $3 more.
Mine deals exclusively with Treasures and costs 5. Rebuild does Victories and is 5, and Expand is 7. I doubt the randomness and same-type restriction reduces the cost that much, especially as it doesn't interfere with your hand.
I'm thinking I'll drop the +$2 from it for now, and test it at that level. Otherwise I'll test it at $6.

Quote
Quote
Ziggurat (4)
Action
You may discard cards from the top of your deck until there are 3 cards in your discard pile.
You may trash up to two cards from your discard pile.
If you trashed a card, you may play a card from your discard pile.
Can it play a Treasure? Could you bring an Estate or another pure Victory into play to Bonfire it?
Yes.
Title: Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: Asper on March 24, 2017, 05:42:57 pm
If you keep Petroglyph as is, it becomes a Hireling.
Title: Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: Neirai the Forgiven on March 24, 2017, 06:10:10 pm
If you keep Petroglyph as is, it becomes a Hireling.
Right. Therefore I need to change the reaction to make it more explicit.

Quote
+1 Action
Discard any number of cards, then draw until you have 5 cards in hand.
-
When you discard this card during an Action phase, you can reveal it and set it aside.
If you do, during your next Clean-up phase, discard it and draw a card.
Title: Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: majiponi on March 25, 2017, 04:58:00 am
If you keep Petroglyph as is, it becomes a Hireling.
Right. Therefore I need to change the reaction to make it more explicit.

Quote
+1 Action
Discard any number of cards, then draw until you have 5 cards in hand.
-
When you discard this card during an Action phase, you can reveal it and set it aside.
If you do, during your next Clean-up phase, discard it and draw a card.
How about saying "when discarded from hand other than during Clean-up"?
Title: Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: Asper on March 25, 2017, 06:25:08 am
If you keep Petroglyph as is, it becomes a Hireling.
Right. Therefore I need to change the reaction to make it more explicit.

Quote
+1 Action
Discard any number of cards, then draw until you have 5 cards in hand.
-
When you discard this card during an Action phase, you can reveal it and set it aside.
If you do, during your next Clean-up phase, discard it and draw a card.
How about saying "when discarded from hand other than during Clean-up"?
Then it can't be triggered by e.g. Cartographer. Not sure that's a bad thing, though.
Title: Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: Aquila on March 25, 2017, 08:30:55 am
Quote
+1 Action
Discard any number of cards, then draw until you have 5 cards in hand.
-
When you discard this card during an Action phase, you can reveal it and set it aside.
If you do, during your next Clean-up phase, discard it and draw a card.
Firstly I'm guessing you want Petroglyph to increase the handsize of a later turn's hand, as you could easily say 'when you discard this other than during Clean-up, you may reveal it for +1 card' so it replaces itself this turn.
If you do, it seems a bit strange to 'draw a card' during Clean-up, because you draw 5 for your next hand anyway. I would find better sense with
Quote
...Clean-up, you may set it aside. If you do, discard it during your next Clean-up to draw an extra card for your​ next turn's hand.
Or if you want to do what it did before without it becoming Hireling, maybe:
Quote
When you would discard this other than during Clean-up, you may reveal and set it aside instead. If you do, discard it at the start of your next turn for +1 card.

So you buy several Petroglyphs​ as they both cycle and can make themselves delayed Labs if they clash. 4 is a good price for this, or maybe 3 could work?
Title: Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: Neirai the Forgiven on March 27, 2017, 01:21:05 pm
Guys, just thought I'd pop up to say a big thank you! I played my first ever set of 100% Antiquity cards this weekend (all prior tests have been mixtures of Donald X cards and Antiquity.) Somewhat to my surprise, the games were fun and flowed well, although the higher average cost of Antiquity cards meant that the games took longer than I'd like, so that's being revisited.

Thanks for all your ongoing support -- the set has gone from weak to fun in a very short time.
Title: Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: Asper on March 27, 2017, 02:40:05 pm
Quote
When you would discard this other than during Clean-up, you may reveal and set it aside instead. If you do, discard it at the start of your next turn for +1 card.

I was so sure I already replied to this... Ah well. This wording doesn't change the fact the card ultimately will attempt to be discarded and get set aside again each turn. It's still a Hireling.
Title: Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: Aquila on March 27, 2017, 05:07:13 pm
Yes, you're right. Anyhow, it would still behave more like a duration or reserve than a Tunnel reaction, so Neirai's way is cleaner.
Title: Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: Neirai the Forgiven on July 10, 2017, 09:28:34 am
I'm necromanticizing this thread from two reasons: one, the production side of this set is starting! I've received the first set of sketches from my artist; when the paintings are done, I'll post a few samples. It's happening!

I'm also fighting with the following two cards:

Shipwreck was intended to speed the game up and provide a low-cost Buy option. However Buys on low-cost cards can be OP. Here's three variants, I'd love to hear your views.
Quote
Shipwreck
2-cost Action: +1 Buy. Each player gains a Silver and puts it into their hand.

2-cost Action: +1 Buy. When you buy this, trash an Action card from your hand. If you do, +1 Buy, +$1 for each $ it costs.

2-cost Action: +1 Buy. You may trash this. If you do, reveal your hand and gain +$1 for each Treasure revealed this way.

Anthropologist is a different, but fun, card. It's a bit odd for balance. It also has a lot of text, I think too much to be practical on a card.
Quote
Anthropologist
Choose one: +1 Card, +1 Action, and take an Action card from the supply costing $3 more than the number of cards on your Research mat and place it on your Research mat; or
Play a card from your Research mat. Return it to the Research mat when this leaves play.
-
Setup: Add an Action pile costing $3 and an Action pile costing $4 to the Supply.
I may actually cut it in favor of another card archtype.
Title: Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: Q on July 10, 2017, 01:08:44 pm
About Shipwreck, the first version is not that interesting. You'd rather have a Woodcutter than gift Silvers, even with hand-size attacks. So this is probably only bought when you desperately need something with an extra Buy
Action trashing is fairly narrow.
About the last version, the one-shot Bank is pretty good and potentially too good for 2. Then again you have to use the extra Buy and 2 to "refill".

I don't understand Anthropologist unless you mean "costing up to $3 more"
Otherwise this would only offer the option to choose among a 3, 4 and 5 (and sometimes a 6 or 7) and not the option to choose among several 4s or 5s.
I like the idea of a Band of Misfits like build-up card but this might be a card that switches quickly from very bad too very good (the only reasonable prices are 3 and 4).

More on the irrelevant side, if this were implemented digitally you would have to prevent taking Anthropologists via Anthropologist lest you get infinite loops.
Title: Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: Neirai the Forgiven on July 10, 2017, 01:55:31 pm
I don't understand Anthropologist unless you mean "costing up to $3 more"
Otherwise this would only offer the option to choose among a 3, 4 and 5 (and sometimes a 6 or 7) and not the option to choose among several 4s or 5s.
I like the idea of a Band of Misfits like build-up card but this might be a card that switches quickly from very bad too very good (the only reasonable prices are 3 and 4).

More on the irrelevant side, if this were implemented digitally you would have to prevent taking Anthropologists via Anthropologist lest you get infinite loops.

It literally only offers the option to choose among, 3, 4, and 5 and sometimes a 6 or 7 or 8-if-one-exists and only offers the option of choosing multiples if you have bridge-types in play. So you have a good idea of what it offers.
The biggest issue is that the ramp-up play is awkward. I'd love a better method of choosing the cards that it allows you to play, but I do want to preserve the 'bridges make this nuts' factor.
That said, I'm not sure that bridges make this nuts at all. It gives it more flexibility.
Title: Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: Q on July 10, 2017, 04:15:13 pm
My hunch is that this is too good for 3 and too weak for 4 (unless there is a 5 of which you want more than two copies) as the build-up would take too long.
Title: Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: Aquila on July 10, 2017, 04:40:50 pm
A few things about playing and then returning cards to the research mat:
How do you intend it to work with durations and reserves? After your turn, and Anthropologist leaves play to go into the discard pile, a duration cannot really leave play; Hireling becomes pointless, and where will cards with a Haven, Gear or Archive go? Reserves themselves leave play, would they move from the tavern to the research mat?

I would suggest 'treat this as a card on your research mat' instead, but I notice you can actually get a selection of cards of the same price, if you have two Anthropologists in a turn, the first takes a card off the research mat to play it so the second can get a card the same cost as the one just played. Unless you keep the ramp-up idea set so you only have one card per price tier, I guess you're adding a lot more words to qualify all cards correctly, something like 'when it would be discarded at Clean-up, return it to the research mat.'
Title: Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: werothegreat on July 10, 2017, 05:07:54 pm
A couple tips:
-post Imgur links to pictures, not links to a card generator
-On Ancient Waterways, the "when you" text should be below the line
Title: Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: Neirai the Forgiven on July 11, 2017, 10:20:03 am
I would suggest 'treat this as a card on your research mat' instead, but I notice you can actually get a selection of cards of the same price, if you have two Anthropologists in a turn, the first takes a card off the research mat to play it so the second can get a card the same cost as the one just played. Unless you keep the ramp-up idea set so you only have one card per price tier, I guess you're adding a lot more words to qualify all cards correctly, something like 'when it would be discarded at Clean-up, return it to the research mat.'

You've confirmed my suspicion that this card is a lot more headache than the payoff is worth. I'm considering options for revision. Will post when I have the ideas.
Title: Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: Neirai the Forgiven on July 11, 2017, 05:41:55 pm
I'm thinking of spinning it as some sort of version of the Black Market, but which works off of copies of the cards from your kingdom instead of cards from outside the kingdom.
Title: Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: Neirai the Forgiven on July 13, 2017, 05:51:16 pm
Here are two options I'm toying with (totally untested so far):

Quote
Anthropologist: Action, $3.
Choose and play up to three differently named non-Anthropologist Action cards from your hand.

Quote
Anthropologist: Action, $3.
+1 Action
Reveal the top three cards of the Culture deck. Put one into play, and put the other two back on top of the Culture deck.
At the end of Clean-up, shuffle the Culture deck.
-
Setup: Create a Culture deck of randomizer cards containing each of the Action cards in the game, as well as one Curse card. These cards may only exist in the Culture deck and in play; if they leave play for any reason, they must be shuffled into the Culture deck.

Which one is better? How can I refine these to make them better?
Title: Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: Aquila on July 14, 2017, 05:21:00 am
Anthropologist: Action, $3.
Choose and play up to three differently named non-Anthropologist Action cards from your hand.
This isn't an interesting card. It's basically a simple Village with +1-3 actions, and those actions can't even be saved for later in the turn.

Anthropologist: Action, $3.
+1 Action
Reveal the top three cards of the Culture deck. Put one into play, and put the other two back on top of the Culture deck.
At the end of Clean-up, shuffle the Culture deck.
-
Setup: Create a Culture deck of randomizer cards containing each of the Action cards in the game, as well as one Curse card. These cards may only exist in the Culture deck and in play; if they leave play for any reason, they must be shuffled into the Culture deck.
I would call this the more interesting card, but all in all I don't think this would ever be a strategic buy, rather one all about chance. You could reveal Curse Anthropologist and something like Scout, or you could reveal Council Room and get to play it non-terminal, a card that would be worth way more than $3. And if every other Action in the kingdom was strong, then rushing this would be automatic.

Finding a different but interesting card that plays other Actions in the kingdom I've found to be hard. But the thought of anthropology looking into the past made me think of this idea, replaying actions you played in the past:
Quote
Anthropologist, $4? cost
+1 card
+1 action
Choose one: at the start of Clean-up, you may choose an Action card that would be discarded and put it on your Research mat; or play a card from your Research mat.
Just replaying them later would be weak, so you add +1 card +1 action to them. Don't know if this would be balanced, but hope this helps.
Title: Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: Neirai the Forgiven on July 14, 2017, 06:31:04 pm
Aquila, I actually really love that idea. I'd probably tweak it a bit like so:

Quote
Anthropologist - Action
+1 card
+1 action
Choose one: Choose a card in play and put it on your Research mat; or, play a card from your Research mat.

This would have the added benefit of letting you break some of the "at the end of play, do the following" kind of elements by moving the card out of play before Cleanup.
Additionally, this has fun fringe benefits when played with cards like the Villa.
Title: Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: Asper on July 15, 2017, 09:51:42 am
Quote
Anthropologist - Action
+1 card
+1 action
Choose one: Choose a card in play and put it on your Research mat; or, play a card from your Research mat.

Puzzle: How many +1 Cards +1Actions can I get out of King's Courting this?  ;)
Title: Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: Neirai the Forgiven on July 17, 2017, 10:30:20 am
Quote
Anthropologist - Action
+1 card
+1 action
Choose one: Choose a card in play and put it on your Research mat; or, play a card from your Research mat.

Puzzle: How many +1 Cards +1Actions can I get out of King's Courting this?  ;)

+3 and +3; however to determine the full effect of this, I need to know what you've also played, what you already have on your Research mat, and also determine the ruling of whether or not you can target a card that is in play but has not fully resolved, i.e. whether you can put the King's Court that you are playing the triple-Anthropologist with onto the Research mat in order to get literally infinite plays.
Title: Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: Jack Rudd on July 17, 2017, 09:08:02 pm
There are a few cards Anthropologist has interesting interactions with. Hireling is another one.
Title: Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: Neirai the Forgiven on July 17, 2017, 10:50:36 pm
Come to think of it, worded as it is, it actually would let you put other players duration cards onto your mat. :P Probably not a good idea to keep it that way but hey...  ;D
Title: Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: Asper on July 18, 2017, 05:03:30 pm
Quote
Anthropologist - Action
+1 card
+1 action
Choose one: Choose a card in play and put it on your Research mat; or, play a card from your Research mat.

Puzzle: How many +1 Cards +1Actions can I get out of King's Courting this?  ;)

+3 and +3; however to determine the full effect of this, I need to know what you've also played, what you already have on your Research mat, and also determine the ruling of whether or not you can target a card that is in play but has not fully resolved, i.e. whether you can put the King's Court that you are playing the triple-Anthropologist with onto the Research mat in order to get literally infinite plays.

+3 for both is an option, but not the maximum. I can also put Anthropologist itself on the mat (as yes, nothing in the current wording keeps me from doing that) and when I play it the second time, put the King's Court there, then on the third time choose Antropologist itself to play it once more, playing King's Court again, which leaves me with +4 Cards, +4 Actions and the option to King's Court one of the drawn cards.
It's not infinite either, as King's Court only targets cards in your hand.

All this is to say: The wording has issues.
Title: Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: Neirai the Forgiven on July 18, 2017, 05:20:32 pm
Agreed! Here is an updated version:

Quote
Anthropologist - Reaction - Action $3
Play a card from your Research Mat
-
On your turn, when you play an Action card, you may discard this card from your hand. If you do, put an Action card from play onto your Research Mat.

I think this suppresses most of the weird behaviors, since for example a King's Court would simply put three cards from your Research Mat into play.
Title: Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: Aquila on July 20, 2017, 05:42:30 am
Agreed! Here is an updated version:

Quote
Anthropologist - Reaction - Action $3
Play a card from your Research Mat
-
On your turn, when you play an Action card, you may discard this card from your hand. If you do, put an Action card from play onto your Research Mat.

I think this suppresses most of the weird behaviors, since for example a King's Court would simply put three cards from your Research Mat into play.

Well this is more in keeping with your set mechanics. As it is, I find it a little unclear how this is supposed to work. Suppose I only have one Action and one of these in hand. I play the Action then react with this. Do I resolve the Action before I move it to the mat? If I do, I would expect something like the wording from Royal Carriage and Coin of the Realm: 'directly after resolving an action, you may discard this...'

Assuming this is how it works, it is in essence Throne Room split into two cards. There would need to be 2 of these in hand during a turn to actually Throne something, and so because that means there's an extra card to buy and line up, this seems rather weak. You can of course replay an Action on a later turn, but by the time that later turn comes you likely have reshuffled your deck, so that it doesn't actually Throne the Action at all; you've only played it once each run-through of the deck.

So I feel this would be too weak to go with like this. I don't think there would be any technical problem adding some kind of bonus to the replays on this version; it wouldn't have to be +1 card +1 action, but that seems about right for balance.
Title: Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: Neirai the Forgiven on July 20, 2017, 12:10:53 pm
I previously had it at +1 Card +1 Action and it was clearly too strong (at that point, it actually turns into something like a Village that spends its own first Action to play itself, and has the ability to marshal around other cards, all for $3.)

I'm actually currently testing it with +1 Action.
Title: Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: Neirai the Forgiven on July 24, 2017, 12:41:05 pm
Updated card, please give me feedbacks:

Quote
Stoneworks - $4 - Action
+1 Buy. Trash a card from your hand to gain a Silver to your hand. Also, if it was a Victory card, for each $3 it cost, gain 2VP and a Gold.
-
After you gain this, +1 VP whenever you gain a card until the end of your turn.
Title: Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: Asper on July 24, 2017, 10:09:08 pm
Updated card, please give me feedbacks:

Quote
Stoneworks - $4 - Action
+1 Buy. Trash a card from your hand to gain a Silver to your hand. Also, if it was a Victory card, for each $3 it cost, gain 2VP and a Gold.
-
After you gain this, +1 VP whenever you gain a card until the end of your turn.

I think that

Quote
+1 Buy
Trash a card from your hand to gain a Silver to your hand.

can already compete with Trading Post, a 5$ (which trashes more cards, but also depends on trashing two and adds no buy).
Also, I think that translating 3$ to 2 VP and a Gold is really, really good payoff and probably makes a Duchy tfb strategy feasible on certain boards.
The last part is just icing on the cake. If I gain one of these during my Action phase, it can go nuts, especially with its own Silver/Gold gaining and +Buy.

Long story short, it's overpowered.
Title: Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: Neirai the Forgiven on July 25, 2017, 04:57:41 pm
Asper, you're right. I'm going to have to find ways to tone the power down, probably to about 1/2 the level :S

It is imperative that the card be worth $4 so that it can combo up nicely with Ironworks et al.... but right now I think the power level might be $7-$10...
Title: Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: Neirai the Forgiven on July 25, 2017, 08:11:06 pm
So here's some thinking:

1) Trader. Trader costs $4, and gives many Silvers on trash. That said, it won't give Silvers for Coppers + Curses, and you could (successfully) argue that getting Silvers all the time is a bad thing... nobody will trash a Province for 8 silvers unless they are playing Feodum, and even then. The difference in cost somewhat hinges on the difference between gain many (probably too many) Silvers to your deck vs. gaining one to your hand (Trading Post.)

2) Goons. Goons rightfully costs $6, and gives a lot of things. You could argue that removing the attack portion of Goons and nerfing its money down to $1 would make a card that is similar to goons but costs $3 or $4. So...

Quote
Nerfed Stoneworks -- Action -- $4
+1 Buy, +$1. When you buy a card when this is in play, gain +1VP.

I still think that this would be more cool as an on-gain effect, which is less powerful than an on-play, but if I also make it trigger on gains, then it is pretty damn powerful.

If I only make it trigger on buys, then it is weaker, but that would open up more design space... decisions.

I can trade the +$1 for a 'gain a silver' if I trash first, but only if I gain it to the discard pile, else we're in the $6-7 cost territory again.

Quote
Nerfedish Stoneworks -- Action -- $4
+1 Buy. Trash a card from your hand to gain a Silver.
-
After you gain this card, get +1VP for each card you buy until the end of your turn.

This is closer to what I want, but still has two challenges: 1) you can turn Coppers and Curses into Silver. This is like the Trader, but with no reaction. It also doesn't do something when you trash Victory cards, which is pretty much something I was hoping to do to give it later-game longevity. So what about the following:

Quote
Longlasting Balanced? Stoneworks -- Action -- $4
+1 Buy. Trash a card from your hand to gain a Treasure costing less than it.
-
After you gain this card, get +1VP for each card you buy until the end of your turn.

Now, this turns Coppers and Curses into nothing, but turns Estates into Coppers. Alternatively, in the late-game, this can turn the Actions you no longer want into Silvers or even Golds.
The negative side is that I've basically lost all reason for you to trash a Duchy or Province. For this reason, I am proposing:

Quote
Proposed possibly moderately OP Stoneworks -- Action --$4
+1 Buy. Trash a card from your hand to gain a Treasure costing less than it. If you trashed a Victory card, get +1VP for each card you buy until the end of your turn.
-
After you gain this card, get +1VP for each card you buy until the end of your turn.

I trust that I will test this, love it, and then realize it's too much text to put on one card.

What is your feedback, especially on cost? Which version feels most like $4?
Title: Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: Neirai the Forgiven on August 07, 2017, 10:11:35 pm
This is what I went with:

Quote
Stoneworks -- Action -- $4
+1 Buy.
Trash a card from your hand to gain a Silver and put it on your deck.
If you trashed a Victory card, get % per $ it cost more than $2.
-
After you gain this, % whenever you gain a card until the end of this turn.

Let me know if this is a bad idea.
Title: Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: Neirai the Forgiven on September 06, 2017, 04:14:14 pm
An update: I'm currently working on the ruleset, and on a Python-based randomizer app that supports all of the new cards plus all of the official sets, plus supports proxying cards if you don't have a printout.

I'm hoping to make the randomizer app intuitive enough to modify so that you all can use it for your own customs.
Title: Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: Neirai the Forgiven on September 18, 2017, 12:30:27 pm
Update: Here's a card with the customized art!

(https://i.imgur.com/Al89bvC.png)
Title: Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: ThetaSigma12 on September 18, 2017, 02:25:14 pm
Do you think you update the OP with all the cards and their current versions? I'd like to look over them but I'm not sure what's current.
Title: Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: Asper on September 18, 2017, 07:00:47 pm
I think the current wording of Artifact gives you infinite coins if you buy Venture with an empty deck:

Buy Venture.
Discard Artifact.
Play Venture.
Dig for and play Artifact.
Set up on-buy effect.
You're still in the middle of the execution of an on-buy effect, so it's still "When you buy".
Discard Artifact again.
Play Venture (which is in play) again.
Dig for and play Artifact again.
You're still still in the middle of resolving an on-buy effect, so on-buy hasn't ended.
And so on.

If you don't think that's right, consider the fact that you can play a Caravan Guard you drew with another Caravan Guard. It's not all that different. Lose-track also does not apply on playing things, as Throne Room/one-shots tells us.
Title: Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: Neirai the Forgiven on September 19, 2017, 10:32:18 am
ThetaSigma12, I'll update the post here soon(tm).

Asper, good catch. I'll have to look into how to handle that.
Edit: I *think* that "Immediately after" instead of "When" will mitigate some of this.
Title: Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: navical on September 19, 2017, 11:26:57 am
How about

Artifact
Treasure $4
$1
The first time you buy a Treasure card this turn, you may play that card and get +1 Buy.
Title: Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: Neirai the Forgiven on September 19, 2017, 11:52:57 pm
I updated the OP.

navical, I could make that change, but I'd like to continue to support things like multiple Artifacts allowing multiple plays and buys. Although in that case I could just use the phrase "the next time you buy..."
Title: Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: Aquila on September 20, 2017, 03:53:05 am
A lot of the cards look fresh and ready to go now, Antiquity is coming along well. A few more observations:
Monolith (5)
Action - Reaction - Attack
+2 Cards
You may trash two differently named cards from your hand. If you do, +1 VP per $3 of their combined cost.
-
When you discard this card on another player's turn, you can reveal it. If you do, each other player gains a Curse.
Most of the time the reaction will trigger on an opponent's attack, and it isn't good to attack attacks as people will always be afraid to play them, Donald's thoughts not mine.

Quote
Artifact (4)
Treasure
$1
Immediately after you buy a Treasure card, you may discard this from play. If you do, play that card and get +1 Buy.
'the next time you buy a treasure' should work.

Quote
Mendicant (4)
Action
+1VP token
Gain a Copper to your hand.
The next time you buy a Victory card this turn, put a Copper in play onto a Kingdom Supply pile.
(Players can't gain cards from that pile until they buy the Copper card.)
Edited: multiple plays of this could see several coppers go onto supply piles at once. In games without +buys players will simply have to get these to reveal piles they need, if you don't put a Copper on them before they do, that is. The VP token makes this card even more automatic in such a game. Change the payload for one thing, maybe to + $1, and somehow make the Coppers moving to other piles much less frequent so they aren't game breaking. (In my experience, making a good variant of a cards-on-other-supply-piles kingdom Action card is almost impossible).

Quote
Shipwreck (2)
Action
+1 Buy
+$1

When you discard this during your next Clean-Up, put a card from your discard pile that costs $0 on the bottom of your deck.
I don't see why this couldn't bottom-deck any Treasure, seeing how Herbalist works. I get the flavour, sunken treasure rises up the deck, synergy with Pearl Diver.
Edit: Maybe you're anticipating this working with Heirlooms? (Bridges stop working at Clean-up, except for those with trolls under them and Ferry, most of the time only Copper and Curse could be bottom-decked, which is rather weak).

Quote
Boulder Trap (3)
Trap   
-1 VP
When you discard this card on another player's turn, that player gains this.
-
When you trash this, each other player gains a Curse.
Players are allowed to look through the Supply piles to count how many cards are left, or to read each Castle. They wouldn't have the surprise factor of traps.
Title: Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: Neirai the Forgiven on September 20, 2017, 10:15:18 pm
Aquila, thanks for your reply and kind words!
First off, this forum thread has been the crucible in which Antiquity was refined. I owe a lot to the community here, for teaching me to make a set that wasn't actually good or fun into something enjoyable. I may seem stubborn and I don't always work your feedback into a card, but I definitely take it all in, and I am full of thanksgiving.

Monolith - I actually feel like this is one of the weakest remaining cards, and it's the on-discard ability that seems to be the culprit. Perhaps I should swap out the reaction for something more unique and 2001 a space odyssey.

Mendicant - This card has been a pain, it's also very very new in its current form. It originally gained Silvers and sealed decks with those, but that had the adverse affect of accelerating the early game economy while getting you VPs. On the other hand, Aquila, the Coppers can only go on Kingdom piles (non-basic piles) so they won't stack on top of Provinces. Also, the idea is that putting a Copper on top of, say, a Mendicant pile turns that from a Mendicant (Kingdom) pile to a temporary Copper (basic) pile, so you can't have more than one on top of a pile at a time. I need to make that more clear.

That said, I'm thinking of making the payload something like "Gain an Estate." And I reaaaaallly need to playtest it more.

Shipwreck - The reason why I am bottom-decking only garbage is to give a drawback to prevent this card from being OP. But now I see Herbalist is a thing and isn't OP... Perhaps I should buff this up to +$2 and a Buy. Or perhaps I should make it a version of Herbalist that bottom-decks instead of top-decks but can choose any Treasure card from your discard pile.

Also, good point about Heirlooms. Maybe I should wait a bit and try to ensure that this works really good with Heirlooms.

Boulder Trap - Good point on the rules of being able to look through piles. I'm going to disagree, though -- my playtesters love playing with the Boulder Trap. They like the gotcha moments. It sounds like I need to make sure that I specify in Trap rules that in games with Traps, you can no longer look through piles. I should also clarify that currently you do not put traps in basic piles, and you don't put traps in any piles where order matters -- i.e., Castles or Split piles. I used to put the Trap directly in the middle of those piles, but that just made people not want to buy the card they knew was there.

Anyhow, thanks for your response -- I really value each one. Watch this spot for Mendicant 9.0 and Monolith 3.0 :)
Title: Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: Asper on September 21, 2017, 07:01:12 am
When I have two Artifacts in play and buy an Artifact, do I get to play it twice? If I buy another Artifact after that, do I get to play that twice, too? The current wording prohibits this, but neither a "first" nor "next" time wording would.
Title: Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: Neirai the Forgiven on September 24, 2017, 09:05:51 am
Asper, my intention is that you can only activate one Artifact per treasure buy.

Funny thing is, I'm pretty sure I can get almost the same behavior if I changed Artifact to say "Treasures cost $1 less, but not less than $0. The next time you Buy a Treasure this turn, +1 Buy"... Which would be a lot easier to understand and possibly have less room for confusion.
Edit: No, no I wouldn't. I shouldn't make design choices first thing in the morning.
Title: Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: Neirai the Forgiven on September 26, 2017, 04:39:32 pm
I updated the OP to show new rules for Boulder Trap, Mendicant, Shipwreck, and Tomb Guardian.
Title: Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: Neirai the Forgiven on September 28, 2017, 11:52:50 am
I'm testing out the following variant of Digsite:

Quote
Digsite - Action + Victory - $8
Reveal the top 5 cards of your deck.
You may trash this. If you do, for each card you revealed...
If it is an Action, Copper, or Silver card, +1VP.
If it is another Treasure card, +2VP.

This gives the player more control over what the card is worth, but makes it a risk-reward choice. Do you buy Province for 6 guaranteed points, or Digsite for maybe $10 -- but not likely.
Yes, I am aware of the insanity of comboing it with Crown.
Title: Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: josh56 on September 28, 2017, 05:28:38 pm
I'm testing out the following variant of Digsite:

Quote
Digsite - Action + Victory - $8
Reveal the top 5 cards of your deck.
You may trash this. If you do, for each card you revealed...
If it is an Action, Copper, or Silver card, +1VP.
If it is another Treasure card, +2VP.

This gives the player more control over what the card is worth, but makes it a risk-reward choice. Do you buy Province for 6 guaranteed points, or Digsite for maybe $10 -- but not likely.
Yes, I am aware of the insanity of comboing it with Crown.
Seems OK-ish. Even with some Golds or Alt-Treasures in your deck this will on average rarely provide more than 6 or 7 VP.
One problem though is the negative interaction with Victory cards. Now of course you want this before you clog your deck with (unremovable) green anyway but do you really need to make this incentive even stronger? I mean, what's the rationale behind punishing players who still/already have non-Action Victory cards in their deck?
Title: Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: Neirai the Forgiven on September 30, 2017, 09:46:15 pm
There really isn't a rationale per se; it's a lore choice. If I dig up a rare treasure, I'm winning! If I dig up evidence of ancient ways of life (actions), I'm, well actually in reality this would be even more winning, but for the sake of the game, I'm happy, but not as winning. If I dig up land, it's just dirt.

I still have to test this out; I came up with the base mechanic and then polled some friends about how much it should ideally cost -- since its cost is driven by the number of cards it reveals. They wanted to have it compete directly with Province. The idea being that there's a risk-reward payoff -- if you buy Digsite, and another player buys Province, you are in a race to convert your Digsites (at a more lucrative transference than 6 VP, hopefully) before your opponent gets all the Provinces. But nothing stops you from buying Provinces yourself. The major benefit of Digsite would be if you go big money and use this as your main source of VP.

My biggest fear here is that all players go Digsite, then Provinces, and it just makes the game last 2x as long.

Initial test results: Montebanks make Digsites 100% useless. Digsites seem underpowered if there's no other source of trashing.
Title: Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: Neirai the Forgiven on October 02, 2017, 09:52:05 am
I've started branding the cards with a line at the bottom instead of an icon:
(https://i.imgur.com/eZGnSVH.png)

Mainly because I'm using VioletCLM's renderer, and because I think it looks good and I'm too lazy to create an image and then manually brand the cards.
Title: Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: Neirai the Forgiven on October 17, 2017, 10:01:42 am
I'm getting close to finished, and am compiling a list of "recommended sets of 10". Which brings me to the question -- how do you suggest working together a recommended set of 10?
Title: Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: Neirai the Forgiven on October 30, 2017, 07:23:57 pm
So, for those that are interested, here's how I came up with Recommended Sets:

1) I went through the wiki.ds "Synergy" list for similar cards and cards with similar mechanics and listed them in a matrix. Obviously I had to keep my brain on because "similar mechanics" does mean not adding synergies for when a card does something that my card does not, etc.

2) When I find multiple hits of the same card from a set, flag them in the matrix; e.g., both Archaeologist and Petroglyph have synergy with Hamlet.

3) Also find synergies between multiple Antiquities cards.

4) Make the magic happen by including the cards with the synergies in the list, starting with the cards with the most connecting synergies, then either branch out by adding in more Antiquities cards and their connected synergy cards, or prune out cards until you have a unifying theme.

For the record, Antiquities synergizes most with Dark Ages, Intrigue, Seaside, and Prosperity, in that order.
Title: Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: ThetaSigma12 on November 01, 2017, 03:31:22 pm
I like how the cards turned out. Your wording really needs to be fixed though. I went ahead and "fixed" them, though I might have changed the intended effect in times it was unclear or screwed them up somehow else.

Quote
Petroglyph (4)
Action - Reaction
+1 Action
Discard any number of cards, then draw until you have 5 cards in hand.
-
When you discard this during an Action phase, you may reveal it and set it aside. If you do, discard it at the start of your next turn and +1 Card.

Quote
Agora (5)
Action - Reaction
+2 Actions
+$2

-
When you discard this other than during your Clean-up phase, you may reveal it, to gain a Silver to your hand.

Quote
Monolith (5)
Action - Reaction - Attack
+2 Cards
You may trash 2 differently named cards from your hand. If you did, +1 VP per $3 of their combined cost (round down).
-
When you discard this on another player's turn, you may reveal it. If you do, look through your discard pile and trash a card from it or your hand.

Quote
Aquifer (5)   
Action - Reaction
+1 Card
+$1

You may play an Aquifer from your hand.
-
When you discard this during your Action phase, you may reveal it, to gain an Aquifer.

Quote
Tomb Raider (3)
Action - Attack
+1 Action
Each other player discards an Attack card (or reveals they can't.) You may gain a copy of a Treasure revealed this way.

Quote
Artifact (4)
Treasure
$1
-
While this is in play, directly after you buy a Treasure, you may discard this. If you do, play that Treasure and +1 Buy.

Quote
Idol (4)
Treasure
$3
-
While this is in play, when you buy a card, put it on your Idol mat. If it was a Curse, take an extra turn after this one, and you draw the cards on your Idol for your next hand instead.

Quote
Digsite (6)
Victory - Action
Discard the top card of your deck. If that card wasn’t a Victory card, trash this. If that card costs...
$2 or less, +4VP.
$3 to $5, +5VP.
$6 or more, +6VP.

Quote
Moundbuilder Village (3)
Action
+2 Actions
-
When you discard this from play during your Clean-up phase, look through your discard pile and set aside the card with the highest cost in $ (if it’s a tie, you choose). Put that card in your hand at the start of your next turn.

Quote
Encroach (6)
Action
+2 Cards.
+1 Action.

You may discard a Treasure from your hand, to gain a Victory card costing up to 2 more than it onto your deck.

Quote
Stoneworks (4)
Action
+1 Buy.
Trash a card from your hand to gain a Silver and onto your deck. If you trashed a Victory card, +1 VP per $ it costed more than $2.
-
When you gain this, +1VP when you gain a card this turn.

Quote
Graveyard (1)
Action
+2 Actions
-
When you trash this, gain a card from the trash.

Quote
Inspector (3)
Action - Attack
+2 Cards
Reveal then discard 2 cards from your hand. Each other player with 4 or more cards in hand discards a copy of one of the revealed cards (or reveals they can’t.)

Quote
Archaeologist (7)
Action
Reveal the top 6 cards of your deck. Put 3 of them into your hand. Choose one: Discard the other revealed cards, or put them onto your deck.

Quote
Mission House (4)
Action
+2 Cards
If you have 5 or less VP tokens, you may discard a Victory card for +1 VP. Otherwise, +2 Actions.

Quote
Mendicant (4)
Action
+1 Action
Gain a Copper and an Estate to your hand. The next time you buy a Victory card this turn, put a Copper in play onto a Kingdom Supply pile.

Quote
Profiteer (4)
Action - Reaction
+1 Buy
+$1

Trash a non-Victory card from the Supply. Cards with the same name as that one cost $1 less this turn.
-
When you would gain a card during an Action phase, you may discard this, to gain a card costing up to $1 more instead.

Quote
Prospector (3)
Action
+1 Card
+1 Action

You may discard a Victory card, to gain a Treasure costing up to $1 more.

Quote
Pyramid (5)
Action
+$5
Trash 2 cards from your hand. Gain 2 Curses.

Quote
Riches (4)
Treasure
$4
-
At the end of your Buy phase, if this is in play, trash all other Treasures you have in play.


Quote
Sarcophagus (6)
Action
Gain an Action card costing up to $4. Play that Action twice, then trash it.
-
When you buy this each other player gains a Curse.

Quote
Shipwreck (2)
Action
+1 Buy
+$1

-
When you discard this from play during your Clean-Up phase, look through your discard pile and put a Treasure from it on the bottom of your deck..

Quote
Collector (4)
Action
Trash the top card of your deck. Gain a card costing up to $3 more that shares a type.

Quote
Pharaoh (8)
Action - Attack
Trash your hand. For each Treasure trashed this way, gain a Gold. For each Curse trashed this way, each other player gains a Curse.

Quote
Tomb Guardian (3)
Action - Attack
+ $2
You may gain a Curse, for +1 Action and + $1. If the Curse pile is empty, each other player discards a Treasure (or reveals they can’t) and gains a Copper to their hand.

Quote
Ziggurat (4)
Action
Look through your discard pile. Choose one: Trash up to two cards from it or your hand; or play a card from it.

Quote
Boulder Trap (3)
Trap   
-1 VP
-
When you discard this on another player's turn, they gain this.
-
When you trash this, each other player gains a Curse.
Title: Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: Neirai the Forgiven on November 07, 2017, 10:34:33 am
Haha, thanks for that!
I'm not quite finished with the set yet, testing continues.
I'm also waiting on Nocturne to finish coming out, since it will contain cards that can clobber mine (RIP Idol) and also contains updates to the language used to describe cards (Moundbuilder Village thanks you!)

For example, Monolith is gone and Discovery is in.
Title: Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: Neirai the Forgiven on November 28, 2017, 09:55:16 am
Here's another teaser; this is the final form of Mendicant:

(https://i.imgur.com/02hvQ0w.png)

I need to get around to updating the OP; right now there are 6 more art images left to get; then the set will be released (and hopefully printed!)
Title: Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: ThetaSigma12 on November 28, 2017, 04:50:34 pm
Please, please, please don't print that Mendicant without adding a bar line.
Title: Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: Neirai the Forgiven on November 28, 2017, 05:09:27 pm
Good point; For some reason I thought that the two text blocks happen concurrently.

Don't worry, I won't go print a physical copy of any of these without PMing you for last minute proofreading :)
Title: Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: Neirai the Forgiven on November 28, 2017, 05:57:19 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/mgDAC8A.png)

So this is like the last Antiquities card ever.

But it has a problem (besides cost -- it's a 6-cost card currently in my test sessions) -- if there isn't a way to trigger the bottom, it's basically a dead or at least boring card. It's not like Tunnel, where it is a least good as 2VP for $3.

What I'm thinking is a burst of awesome when you "discover" this card, that causes the world to take notice. At this point, I have a few ideas.
Title: Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: Neirai the Forgiven on November 29, 2017, 09:55:25 am
This is actually the version I'll be testing. I have no idea the balance, or fun, but it's INTERESTING.

Like other "Trap" cards, it shuffles into other piles and if you reveal it on the top of a pile, you gain it. You also can't look through the cards or count them anymore when Traps are in play.
Unlike the (one) other trap card, this one doesn't start the game in various other piles -- it starts the game in its own pile and you choose which pile to put it into.
Title: Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: Neirai the Forgiven on November 30, 2017, 09:01:44 am
Update: I think it works well but needs to payoff nerfed to prevent the obvious exploits; I'm thinking of making it gain a card costing from $4 to $6.

I.e.,
(https://i.imgur.com/JhyXJiA.png)
Title: Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: Asper on November 30, 2017, 01:28:56 pm
I don't think I get what Discovery does. Do you gain it when it gets revealed or do you need to buy it? I assume the latter, because it never says anything else.  Is it supposed to be an Embargo variant? Because if the former applies and you put it into the pile of a card costing 7$ or more, that's what it is. If you put it into a cheap pile, it gives a boost. Do I shuffle the pile face down? How do I shuffle split piles? And if the shuffling is random, isn't this power-neutral in that it might later help/hurt me just as much as it may hurt/help an opponent? In 2P games, this is actually a 50/50 chance, so both outcomes are equally likely and cancel out each other. In other words, isn't this just a one-shot Silver for 2$, power-wise? Why would I go for this, except for edge cases where I want a Silver early and want it removed after that, and can't afford somethign better? Also, why does it need this Setup-clause? I never was a fan of "cover the pile" cards, because I think Embargo does the same thing much cleaner and without rules questions. At any rate, I would suggest putting it anywhere in the pile instead of shuffling it in, to give you more control over when it will re-surface again and to avoid screwing up split piles.
Title: Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: Neirai the Forgiven on November 30, 2017, 02:29:01 pm
The confusion is mostly my fault for not conveying what a Trap card is (there are two in the set, if you count this hybrid. The other is Boulder Trap, which is a -1VP Trap card that curses opponents if you trash it.)

A non-hybrid trap card starts the game in each unsorted Kingdom pile. It's randomly shuffled in and the deck is face-down, like Knights. If you reveal the card from the top of the deck (generally by buying or gaining the card above it) you gain it immediately, for free.

Based on that explanation, does the card make more sense? Whether or not you'd ever buy it is another consideration altogether; as is whether having one set of rules for sorted card piles and another for unsorted is the worst design ever.

Edit: I'm asking if it makes more sense without explaining the intent since the card itself should fill in the pieces that the rulebook entry on "Trap" does not.
Title: Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: Asper on November 30, 2017, 10:14:25 pm
The confusion is mostly my fault for not conveying what a Trap card is (there are two in the set, if you count this hybrid. The other is Boulder Trap, which is a -1VP Trap card that curses opponents if you trash it.)

A non-hybrid trap card starts the game in each unsorted Kingdom pile. It's randomly shuffled in and the deck is face-down, like Knights. If you reveal the card from the top of the deck (generally by buying or gaining the card above it) you gain it immediately, for free.

Based on that explanation, does the card make more sense? Whether or not you'd ever buy it is another consideration altogether; as is whether having one set of rules for sorted card piles and another for unsorted is the worst design ever.

Edit: I'm asking if it makes more sense without explaining the intent since the card itself should fill in the pieces that the rulebook entry on "Trap" does not.

Well, as is, you have two Trap cards, with the rules you describe applying to half of them. It seems a bit like overkill to have a type with rules which apply as often as they don't. Without the type, you could just do something like:


Discovery, Treasure, 2$
2$
When you play this, put it anywhere in a supply pile of your choice, except on top.
---
When this becomes visible at the top of a supply pile other than Discovery's during your turn, gain it and a card costing up to 6$.


I don't really feel I can make out a single main concept for Boulder Trap, because it does so many things at once. Otherwise I might have given a suggestion on how to simplify it.
Title: Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: Neirai the Forgiven on December 01, 2017, 04:46:00 pm
Yeah, Boulder Trap has been streamlined a bit (mainly because I can never remember to gain it to the top of a deck)

Now it's just (keeping in mind the Trap rule of "Starts the game randomly hidden in each Kingdom pile. If your reveal it from the top of a pile, gain it.")

Boulder Trap - $3
-1VP
When you trash this, each other player gains a Curse.
Title: Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: Neirai the Forgiven on December 01, 2017, 04:46:49 pm
You totally have a point, though; Discovery doesn't need to be a hybrid Trap. It may make more sense as just a Treasure.
Title: Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: Asper on December 01, 2017, 09:45:35 pm
You totally have a point, though; Discovery doesn't need to be a hybrid Trap. It may make more sense as just a Treasure.

Although I realized you can't do it just as I suggested, because you would just always put it second under the top card of a pile you want to buy a card from. So that needs to be avoided somehow. Of course it could be a Night card instead. It would still work with Vampire, but I think that's it.
Title: Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: Neirai the Forgiven on December 03, 2017, 12:13:35 am
Yeah, right now it's got three kinks to work out:

1) If you shuffle it in, then you have this awkward element with Castles and Split Piles (at one point I simply said you can't put it in those piles, but that seems extra niche.) If you let a player put it wherever they want, it gets awkward if they have +Buys because they could, as you say, buy a card, put them one card down, and then buy the next card to trigger the payoff.
2) The card seems to be pretty swingy if all you do with the payoffs is buy Duchies and if one player lucks out and gets all the payoffs. I don't want to explicitly forbid gaining victory cards, unless I actually just make the payoffs gaining Gold.
3) What happens when a player has a Discovery in their hand and buys the last card in a pile? Do they get the payoff?

Ultimately 1) is the big question to solve; also if I make 2) be "just gain a gold" then 3 can likely be "yes".
Title: Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: Neirai the Forgiven on December 07, 2017, 10:23:13 am
I'm going to test the "put it however many levels down" wording as a gameplay option, see how it goes. It would solve #1.
Title: Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: Neirai the Forgiven on December 18, 2017, 04:20:27 pm
I tested "put it whereever you want in the pile" instead of shuffling for the Discovery. I got an interesting result from a player psychology point of view.

With shuffling, players bought Discoveries and used them often. They seemed to believe that they will always win the Golds from subsequent buys, even if that's unlikely.

With intelligent placement, players rarely bought Discoveries, avoided using them when possible, and then placed them as far down the pile as possible in order to keep them out of enemy hands. They seemed to believe that the opponent would always win the Golds if not prevented from doing so.

Chances are, this is just inferior play -- a good player would be able to figure out exactly where to put the Discovery; but most of the testers were not willing to try figure it out.

This, combined with the additional time involved in players analyzing where to put the card leads me to say, screw it, shuffle it is.


Edit: and with that, the set is basically done. Watch this space for me to update the OP for final wording scrutiny.
Title: Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: Neirai the Forgiven on December 19, 2017, 10:02:08 am
The OP has been updated for final wording scrutiny!

(Tomb Guardian still might need a rename, due to Guardian. Tomb Raider stays, though.)
Title: Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: Aquila on December 24, 2017, 06:37:51 pm
Here's a scan through:

Petroglyph - reaction should just be 'When you discard this card during an Action phase, you can may reveal it and set it aside.'
Probably fine alongside Faithful Hound, this feels good and belonging in the set.

Discovery - I anticipate card space to be difficult here, especially as you'll probably want to add 'until not on top' to shuffling it into a pile. Making it an Action (+1 action + $2) would help a bit, but that isn't thematic. So maybe:
Quote
(+1 action +) $2
While this is in play, when you next buy a card, shuffle this into that card's pile until the top card is not Discovery.
-
When you reveal this from a non-Discovery Supply pile, gain it and a Gold.
Technically you'd want to put it in a random place in the pile, but that's something only a computer (or another person who isn't playing) could do. Sure it doesn't actually break the game if you shuffle it into the Castles or a split pile, but some people will take issue with a premature Plunder or a King's Castle on top, so this could only ever be a fan card.

Artifact - maybe, 'While this is in play, directly after you when you next buy a Treasure, you may discard this to play that Treasure and get +1 Buy.
Or to save confusion with Venture and potential tracking issues, you could set the Artifact aside (change 'discard this' to 'set this aside' and add 'Discard this at Clean-up' at the end). I can't really see a way to get one card to play one Treasure without implying Throning when you use several Artifacts, though.

Avatar of Greed - only now do I see you can just buy Victories with this and store them on the mat out of the way, very strong on a 4 cost Gold. You could specify non-Victory cards easily enough though.

Digsite doesn't need to be a Victory. I guess this can run into neverending game trouble with Lurker too.

Encroach has a definite feel of too strong about it. Discard a Gold and it's a bit like getting +1 buy + $5 non-terminally, yet you can redraw the Gold later (empty deck, another Encroach would do it). I'm imagining a choose one clause between draw and the discard may make a balanced card.

Archaeologist - maybe, 'Reveal Look at the top 6 cards of your deck. Put 3 of them into your hand, Choose one: then either discard the remaining cards or put them onto your deck back in any order.'

Profiteer - just its top part, 'Trash a non-Victory card from the Supply. Cards with the same name as that one it cost $1 less this turn, but not less than $0.

Shipwreck - just, 'Look through your discard pile and put a Treasure from it onto at the bottom of your deck.'

Stronghold - just mentioning that you could reveal it with the Reaction any number of times to trash more than once. It could stay, but maybe it's a bit too potent a trasher like this. If it is, it looks like the Reaction will more or less do the same thing just playing the Stronghold a la Caravan Guard.
Title: Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: Neirai the Forgiven on January 02, 2018, 11:51:22 pm
Responses:

Discovery - I've rendered it a few times, normally it works out; if not, I can use a trick with Non-breaking spaces to make the $2 smaller, although that's not how Dominion Treasures usually look.
In the rules, I've specified how a player is supposed to "Shuffle In". You set aside the top card of the Supply pile, turn the remaining cards face down, and shuffle those in with the Boulder Trap or Discovery. Then you take the set aside card and put it on top. The end result is a face-down pile with one face-up card on top; for Castles, this means that you start with a Small Castle (or whatever was next when you used the Discovery) and then random remaining cards. Best solution? No. Agreeable? Depends on who's playing. But I think it's a better solution than "Castles are arbitrarily immune to Discoveries." For split piles, you only shuffle into one half of the split.

Artifact - Overall, I'm not worried too much about the implied Throning; however, I have been tossing around ways to reword this (maybe even using Necromancer-style flip mechanics) in order to avoid the unwanted results.

Avatar of Greed - Cards on the Avatar mat do not score points at end of game, something I will write on the card. It does mean you can treat it like a super-Island, except that if you don't get a Curse (which may run out) then you just screwed yourself out of the game.

Dig Site - Good eye. It does not need to be a Victory. I have contemplated adding a rule like "In games using this, the game ends if a player has 25 or more VP tokens." This would prevent unending games. That said, I have played games with Lurkers and Dig Sites, and they did not go on forever -- however, a player in those games was trying to win via Provinces instead of Dig Sites. I think if everyone went hardcore Dig Sites, this could become a real problem.

Stronghold - Ahh yes, the "you can actually reveal this unlimited times as a Reaction" thing. I forget that. I'm toying with making the bottom simply reflect the top (as a reaction, discard this to trash two cards from hand or discard pile.) Not entirely sure yet.
Title: Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: Neirai the Forgiven on January 09, 2018, 06:18:20 pm
I'm toying with making the bottom simply reflect the top (as a reaction, discard this to trash two cards from hand or discard pile.) Not entirely sure yet.

Of course, if I do that, since I'm saying you can trash from hand or discard pile, I'm essentially removing any reason for there to BE a reaction.
Title: Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: Neirai the Forgiven on January 11, 2018, 11:37:18 pm
Artifact - maybe, 'While this is in play, directly after you when you next buy a Treasure, you may discard this to play that Treasure and get +1 Buy.
Or to save confusion with Venture and potential tracking issues, you could set the Artifact aside (change 'discard this' to 'set this aside' and add 'Discard this at Clean-up' at the end). I can't really see a way to get one card to play one Treasure without implying Throning when you use several Artifacts, though.

I'm not too worried about Venture-Artifact round trips; they aren't infinite loops because you either run out of money or Ventures in the Supply.

I'm trying out this wording, though, to avoid some Throning issues:

"When you buy a Treasure, you may discard the last Artifact you played this turn to play it and +1 Buy."

I don't think this is the final wording but it's closer.
Title: Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: Neirai the Forgiven on January 15, 2018, 10:06:11 am
Does this work, does it even make sense?

Quote
While this is in play, immediately after you buy a Treasure, you may turn the last face up Artifact you played this turn face down. If you do, +1 Buy and play that Treasure.

I tell you, I'm sort of conflicted on Artifact. Artifact was the first card from this set that worked; it just worked fine out of the box, but this was largely based on a given interpretation of what Artifact does. That interpretation is really, really hard to convey in card text. Any help would be appreciated.

The interpretation is:
When you buy a Treasure, if you have any Artifacts in play, you can discard one of them to buy another card and you get the value of the Treasure, too.
If you have more than one Artifact, you can chain buying and playing Treasures, rather than Throning the Treasure and getting a pile of Buys.

As it turns out, as the card usually turns out when written as card rules, if you have 6 Artifacts in play and Buy a Gold, you can discard them all and get +$18 money and 6 Buys.

I might just need to rewrite the card altogether.
Title: Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: Neirai the Forgiven on January 15, 2018, 12:45:47 pm
Funny, deciding to rewrite it works really well.

Quote
Artifact - Treasure $4
$1
When you play this, you may pay any amount of your $. If you do, gain a Treasure with a cost equal to the $ you paid, and play it.

The only "loss" here is that it won't allow you to use its power on cards with Debt or Potion costs.
Which I can live with.

(As a bonus, this solves Venture round trips.)
Title: Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: Gazbag on January 15, 2018, 01:39:32 pm
If you want it closer to the original wording you could try:

Quote
While this is in play, directly after you buy a Treasure, if that Treasure isn't in play, you may discard this to play that Treasure and +1 Buy.

I think that stops you from using multiples at once? Doesn't stop the Venture thing though.
Title: Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: Neirai the Forgiven on February 04, 2018, 12:07:23 pm
Despite my repeated statements that I was not going to make any further large changes to card, I've been testing this Avatar of Greed since the sheer number of lines of text required to make the other Avatar of Greed 'rules-safe' is getting stupid:

Quote
Avatar of Greed - Treasure $4
+1 Buy
If you gained a Curse this turn, +$3. Otherwise, the next time you gain a Curse this turn, +$3.
I've tested it out and (in a Big Money-optimal game) it's maybe a wee bit underpowered. I might need to make it have $1 base and +$2 from the Curse. But I need to test it in more kingdoms, such as ones that draw a lot of cards, or where slog is optimal.
Title: Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: Neirai the Forgiven on March 05, 2018, 06:18:46 pm
I'm back!
It's been a while since I've had progress, largely because my artist has been on hiatus.

After all that noise about changing cards, I've basically scrapped the Avatar of Greed and replaced it with:

Quote
Token - Treasure $4
+1 Card
Discard a card
$2
-
When you discard this on your turn, if it's not Clean-up, reveal it for + $1.

A little explanation:
At one point, I'd have said that Treasures that draw cards are a big no-no. For one thing, they can swing horribly (this card is worth $2. Or $7. Or maybe more.) On the other hand, they can burn Actions, which is bad.
I find that discarding a card balances the swing out a bit. Also, we live in the era of Nocturne... drawing a card might also draw you Night cards, which I think is cool. This set could use a little more Night card interaction.
The Reaction was built to have synergy with cards like Tactician. Because this is a board game piece!

Finally, the name's not final. It's a board game piece, and I've tried everything from Chessman to Draughtsman... suggest away!

I *think* it's balanced, but if you know it's not, let me know.
Title: Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: Neirai the Forgiven on March 06, 2018, 06:35:03 pm
So, for those interested, a little timeline:

I'm waiting on 4 pieces of art from the 26 originally commissioned. I have the rest. They look gorgeous.
Teaser:
(https://i.imgur.com/zwSy97q.png)
After that, I need to finish the rules up (roughly a week of work.)
Then I'm on to an official unofficial release and then I risk all my cash on printing a few copies.

I suspect that I'll be done by summer!
Title: Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: Neirai the Forgiven on March 15, 2018, 04:41:35 pm
Final Token rules:
Quote
Token - Treasure $3
+1 Card
Discard a Treasure (or reveal you can't.)
$1
-
When you discard this on your turn, if it's not Clean-up, reveal for + $1.
Seems pretty balanced and interesting. It's still a decent gamble, sometime discarding it's best.
As a bonus, if you're playing a Night-heavy deck, there's a good chance that you can keep Night cards you drew.
Title: Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: Holunder9 on March 16, 2018, 06:13:25 am
Final Token rules:
Quote
Token - Treasure $3
+1 Card
Discard a Treasure (or reveal you can't.)
$1
-
When you discard this on your turn, if it's not Clean-up, reveal for + $1.
Seems pretty balanced and interesting. It's still a decent gamble, sometime discarding it's best.
As a bonus, if you're playing a Night-heavy deck, there's a good chance that you can keep Night cards you drew.
Sorry but this looks very bad. If you draw a Treasure you have to discard it so the card drawing is only good if you have lots of Night cards in your deck.
So this is only very rarely a Peddler, normally it is just a Copper. Even with discard for benefit around which can make the card again into a quasi-Peddler I doubt that you want it in your deck. Rather pick the safe option and buy Silver.

There could be something if you get rid of the discard a Treasure thing. Then chances are at least much higher that you draw something decent and the card would be more like a Venture that doesn't dig (but can miss).
Title: Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: Neirai the Forgiven on March 16, 2018, 10:34:14 am
Final Token rules:
Quote
Token - Treasure $3
+1 Card
Discard a Treasure (or reveal you can't.)
$1
-
When you discard this on your turn, if it's not Clean-up, reveal for + $1.

Sorry but this looks very bad. If you draw a Treasure you have to discard it so the card drawing is only good if you have lots of Night cards in your deck.
So this is only very rarely a Peddler, normally it is just a Copper. Even with discard for benefit around which can make the card again into a quasi-Peddler I doubt that you want it in your deck. Rather pick the safe option and buy Silver.

There could be something if you get rid of the discard a Treasure thing. Then chances are at least much higher that you draw something decent and the card would be more like a Venture that doesn't dig (but can miss).
The idea here is that you're drawing a higher-end treasure than the one you're discarding; so you draw a Gold, discard a Copper. Or discard a another Token, keep its value.
I originally had it as just "Discard a card" but then found that you just went big money and discarded green cards.
Arguably I could reverse the order of discard and draw, which would mean that you don't discard the treasure you drew right away if this is the last treasure you played this turn.
Title: Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: Holunder9 on March 17, 2018, 04:40:09 am
Final Token rules:
Quote
Token - Treasure $3
+1 Card
Discard a Treasure (or reveal you can't.)
$1
-
When you discard this on your turn, if it's not Clean-up, reveal for + $1.

Sorry but this looks very bad. If you draw a Treasure you have to discard it so the card drawing is only good if you have lots of Night cards in your deck.
So this is only very rarely a Peddler, normally it is just a Copper. Even with discard for benefit around which can make the card again into a quasi-Peddler I doubt that you want it in your deck. Rather pick the safe option and buy Silver.

There could be something if you get rid of the discard a Treasure thing. Then chances are at least much higher that you draw something decent and the card would be more like a Venture that doesn't dig (but can miss).
The idea here is that you're drawing a higher-end treasure than the one you're discarding; so you draw a Gold, discard a Copper. Or discard a another Token, keep its value.
I originally had it as just "Discard a card" but then found that you just went big money and discarded green cards.
Arguably I could reverse the order of discard and draw, which would mean that you don't discard the treasure you drew right away if this is the last treasure you played this turn.
Seems far more reasonable to play Token last. Then you don't have to discard a Treasure if you draw a non-Treasure card.

As I said, if you get rid of this pointless discarding you have a weaker Venture that randomy draws instead of digging for Treasures and this might be something.
Or you stick with the discarding but dig for Treasures; then Token is to Venture what Oasis is to Peddler.
Title: Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: Neirai the Forgiven on March 20, 2018, 02:32:23 pm
TL:DR: Card is too weak if you limit the discard to Treasures.

Okay, so here's some thought experimentation:

If Token draws you a card and discards you a treasure, then it performs in the following ways:

Quote
1) If you play it last, and it draws a non-night, non-Token card, it wastes that card (or removes it, in the case of Curse/Victory) and it's a Copper, possibly a slightly nicer Copper, possibly a much worse Copper, since it might have just thrown out a Gold or a good Action. Certainly not worth $3.
2) If you play it last, and it draws a Night card, then it's worth Copper and a Night card, since you don't discard the Night card. Probably Copper and a Night card is worth around $3 (more if you always drew one, but Copper and a night card with a large chance of failure is worth less than $3 for sure. The whole point of forcing you to discard a Treasure instead of allowing you to discard anything, by the way, is both to limit the power of the card (preventing you from drawing Gold and discarding estate, for example) but to make sure you can keep and play any Night cards.
3) If you play it first, and you draw a Copper and discard a Copper, it's worth Copper, but you paid $3 for it.
4) If you play it first, and you draw a Copper and discard another token, it's worth Silver, but you paid $3 for it and could have bought Silver which is always worth Silver, so why did you bother? Also, you could have played that Token (probably) for at least the $1 that you got from discarding it, maybe more, so why did you bother?
5) If you play it first, and you draw a Silver and discard a Copper, it's worth Silver, but you paid $3 for it and could have bought Silver which is always worth Silver, so why did you bother?
6) If you play it first, and you draw Gold and discard a Copper, it's worth Gold, and you paid $3 for it! That's good but not actually an upgrade from Gold, since you needed to buy that Gold and you need to have the Gold coming up, so what you did was just borrow a Gold from your next turn. You have it now, but you won't have it then (in most cases) so all you're getting is slightly better tempo.
7) If you play it first, and you draw Platinum and discard Copper, it's worth Platinum and you paid $3 for it but all the previous comments about tempo still stand.
8] If you play a totally unrelated card, and discard this, you do get money and that's quite good but somewhat unpredictable, but still rather good. Too good to cost anything less than #3.

Verdict: As currently designed, this card is way too weak played out of hand, but at least worth $3 discarded incidentally. This just means that anyone who actually PLAYS this card is doing it wrong; that's bad design.

Thanks for challenging the card, Holunder9!

If Token draws you a card and discards any card, then it performs in the following ways:

Quote
1) If you play it last, and it draws a non-Token card, it wastes that card (or removes it, in the case of Curse/Victory) and it's a Copper, possibly a slightly nicer Copper, possibly a much worse Copper, since it might have just thrown out a good treasure or a good Action. Certainly not worth $3.
2) If you play it last, and it draws an on-discard Reaction, then it's worth Copper and the discard effect (Gold? Two cards?) which isn't bad usually. Should point out that Antiquities contains discard effects but only the Agora's (put a Silver in your hand) can trigger from this. These are also super edge cases (you won't always be playing with Tunnel) so they can't really be taken into account for card power, only taken into account if you're worried that a card is broken strong. So this still makes this not worth $3.
3-7) The effects for "draw a Treasure, discard a treasure" scenarios are all the same.
8] If you play it first, draw a Copper, discard a dead card (very rarely do you not have these,) it's worth Silver, and cost $3. You could still just get Silver and make it always work this way but w/e.
9) If you play it first, draw a Silver, discard a dead card, it's worth Gold, and cost $3. Also, you no longer have to have bought a Gold to make this work, just a Silver.
10) If you play it first, draw a Gold, discard a dead card, it's worth $4, and cost $3. You have to have bought a Gold already, but at least you're getting something for your investment.
11) If you play it first, draw a Platinum, discard a dead card, it's worth $6, and cost $3. You have to have bought a Platinum already though, so it's not completely broken.
12) If you play a totally unrelated card, and discard this, you do get money and that's quite good but somewhat unpredictable, but still rather good. Too good to cost anything less than #3.

It's fascinating how much changing "Treasure" to "Card" changes the balance.

I'm going to try it at +1 Card, Discard a card, $1, Discarding brings $1 and see whether it needs to get nerfed to $2 or what.
Title: Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: Neirai the Forgiven on April 16, 2018, 10:52:17 pm
Turns out I have space for another card in my set. Going to try for a "Snake Pit", which will combine a friendly trasher with an unfriendly attacker.

Something like

Quote
Snake Pit - Action - Attack $4
+1 Action
You may trash a card from your hand. If you trashed two or more cards this turn, gain a Gold.
Each other player trashes a card from his hand or gains a Curse.

Any thoughts?
Title: Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: Neirai the Forgiven on April 17, 2018, 12:22:48 am
Something I realized is that the way it's worded, after you trash two cards in a turn, you can just keep playing this out for Gold (and trash/Curse attacks) without trashing cards from your hand.

Might keep, but need to think through how it works with other trashers.
Title: Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: Holunder9 on April 17, 2018, 04:53:15 am
I don't think that this is any good. It is similar to Bishop but instead of VPs you sometimes get Gold. Bishop can easily generate around 10-20 VPs which can compensate the tempo advantage that the other players have.  A few Golds that you can only get when you have a second Snake Pit or another trasher in your deck on the other hand won't.

I like the idea of "they have to trash or a gain a Curse" so perhaps if you choose another benefit but Gold for the active player this could become a playable Bishop variant.
Title: Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: Neirai the Forgiven on April 17, 2018, 06:36:32 pm
I need to playtest this, but here's an update that's nastier in a lot of ways:

Quote
Snake Charmer - Action - Attack - $5
+1 Card
+1 Action
You may trash a card from your hand. If you trashed two or more cards this turn, gain a Gold.

Each other player trashes an Action card from his or her hand or gains a Curse.
Title: Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: Holunder9 on April 18, 2018, 03:24:25 am
I need to playtest this, but here's an update that's nastier in a lot of ways:

Quote
Snake Charmer - Action - Attack - $5
+1 Card
+1 Action
You may trash a card from your hand. If you trashed two or more cards this turn, gain a Gold.

Each other player trashes an Action card from his or her hand or gains a Curse.
A cantrip trasher and curser in one card is crazy strong. Cantrip trashing is probably already a $5 (it might not have the benefits of Junk Dealer and Upgrade but it is not mandatory which might be useful in the endgame). The gold gaining is more or less ignorable but the attack is basically Familiar.
Of course you could argue that the card defends against itself but it might just come down to a luckfest: whoever gets Snake Charmer first will more or less win the game. The only other card that trashes and junks at the same time, Ambassador, is cheaper.
Title: Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: Gazbag on April 18, 2018, 03:54:07 am
I need to playtest this, but here's an update that's nastier in a lot of ways:

Quote
Snake Charmer - Action - Attack - $5
+1 Card
+1 Action
You may trash a card from your hand. If you trashed two or more cards this turn, gain a Gold.

Each other player trashes an Action card from his or her hand or gains a Curse.
A cantrip trasher and curser in one card is crazy strong. Cantrip trashing is probably already a $5 (it might not have the benefits of Junk Dealer and Upgrade but it is not mandatory which might be useful in the endgame). The gold gaining is more or less ignorable but the attack is basically Familiar.
Of course you could argue that the card defends against itself but it might just come down to a luckfest: whoever gets Snake Charmer first will more or less win the game. The only other card that trashes and junks at the same time, Ambassador, is cheaper.

Wow yeah this is busted! The Gold gaining is also super relevant because trashing aggressively and using a Gold gainer to build economy is generally when Gold gainers are at their best (look at things like Donate+Market Square/Windfall as the most extreme examples of this). So this card basically trashes, builds economy and attacks all at once and is a cantrip so it's easy to spam.

Also Catapult trashes and junks at the same time  :P. (I know it's different because you have to trash expensive things.) I guess Vampire/Bat kind of does that too sometimes, but yeah...
Title: Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: Holunder9 on April 18, 2018, 04:27:54 am
You are of course right, the Gold gaining is good as you will need several Snake Charmers in your deck. But even without the Gold gaining the card would be broken.

I think that even though non-terminal attacks have become more prominent in the last expansions (Relic, Vampire, Werewolf, Raider, Idol) the old rules still apply: one should think twice about making them (the above mentioned all get away with it because the attack either does not stack in the case of Relic, is a weak Hexing attack in the case of Vampire and Werewolf and happens only every second time in the case of Idol) and thrice about cantrip attacks (Urchin is weak and Familiar is hard to get).
Title: Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: Chappy7 on April 18, 2018, 01:46:04 pm
What if you just made Snake Pit a cantrip? Yeah, it's still a cantrip trasher, which is crazy, but since it lets everyone else trash too, it might be balanced.  The cursing will only come later, and by then, your opponent(s) will have decent control of their deck already due to heavy trashing, so the curses won't be that big of a deal. 

I liked the trash a card or gain a curse thing, but I don't like the trash an action card or gain a curse thing.  At least not on a cantrip. 
Title: Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: Neirai the Forgiven on April 18, 2018, 02:19:05 pm
What if you just made Snake Pit a cantrip? Yeah, it's still a cantrip trasher, which is crazy, but since it lets everyone else trash too, it might be balanced.  The cursing will only come later, and by then, your opponent(s) will have decent control of their deck already due to heavy trashing, so the curses won't be that big of a deal. 

I liked the trash a card or gain a curse thing, but I don't like the trash an action card or gain a curse thing.  At least not on a cantrip.

Yeah, I'm leaning that way, too. Would you keep the "after I trash two, gain a gold?" Or three, depending on balance?
Title: Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: Chappy7 on April 18, 2018, 03:28:48 pm
What if you just made Snake Pit a cantrip? Yeah, it's still a cantrip trasher, which is crazy, but since it lets everyone else trash too, it might be balanced.  The cursing will only come later, and by then, your opponent(s) will have decent control of their deck already due to heavy trashing, so the curses won't be that big of a deal. 

I liked the trash a card or gain a curse thing, but I don't like the trash an action card or gain a curse thing.  At least not on a cantrip.

Yeah, I'm leaning that way, too. Would you keep the "after I trash two, gain a gold?" Or three, depending on balance?

I think it's fun, but as Gazbag said, trashing quickly and gaining that kind of immediate economy might be too good. What if it was 'Gain a Silver into your hand' instead?
Title: Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: Neirai the Forgiven on April 18, 2018, 03:39:58 pm
What if you just made Snake Pit a cantrip? Yeah, it's still a cantrip trasher, which is crazy, but since it lets everyone else trash too, it might be balanced.  The cursing will only come later, and by then, your opponent(s) will have decent control of their deck already due to heavy trashing, so the curses won't be that big of a deal. 

I liked the trash a card or gain a curse thing, but I don't like the trash an action card or gain a curse thing.  At least not on a cantrip.

Yeah, I'm leaning that way, too. Would you keep the "after I trash two, gain a gold?" Or three, depending on balance?

I think it's fun, but as Gazbag said, trashing quickly and gaining that kind of immediate economy might be too good. What if it was 'Gain a Silver into your hand' instead?

Silver might be too slow in the long run / I do a lot of that sort of thing already, although it might just be how it should be to keep the balance going.

Although silver works a bit with snake charmers because they are often some kind of beggar, right?

I'm also toying with the alternative rule of "if your hand is empty, gain a gold" instead. It would require you to trash the card you drew, using a third cantrip charmer... The fun part of that is that it would, in some ways, work well with cards like Secret Cave.
Title: Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: Neirai the Forgiven on April 19, 2018, 06:00:47 pm
Update: here is a (maybe) faster version that I'm going to try test:

Quote
Snake Charmer - Action - Attack - $4
+1 Action
You may trash a card from your hand.

Each other player trashes a card from their hand or gains a Curse.
-
At the end of your Action phase, if your hand is empty, + $3.

This might also lower the power level (or raise it!)
Title: Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: Holunder9 on April 20, 2018, 02:49:14 am
Like the first version this looks like a far too weak Bishop variant. The benefit of using this as payload and Curser in the later part of the game most likely doesn't compensate that you paid $4 to do something for everybody.
Title: Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: Neirai the Forgiven on April 21, 2018, 12:33:28 am
I'm going to have a fairly extended test session tonight, which will help me get an idea of how powerful it is in different permutations. Cost is not final.

For now, I've also changed it so the card other people can trash can't be a Curse, and running it at $3. The reasoning for the drop in cost is its similarity to Forager (a Trash + Action card.)
Title: Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: Neirai the Forgiven on April 22, 2018, 12:07:05 am
After a number of testing games, settled with the following:

Quote
Snake Charmer - Action - Attack $4
+1 Action
+$1
You may trash a card from your hand. If you trashed two or more cards this turn, +$2.

Each other player may trash a non-Curse card from their hand. If they don't, they gain a Curse.
Title: Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: Neirai the Forgiven on April 23, 2018, 10:41:04 am
On a side note, it turns out that the Snake Charmer becomes an attack that punishes other players for streamlining their decks too much.
Title: Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: Neirai the Forgiven on May 02, 2018, 09:06:22 am
After additional testing, I buffed that "payoff" for trashing two or more cards to +$3, giving a fully-loaded Snake Charmer $4.

This makes Snake Charmer sort of a hybrid between Fool's Gold and Bishop, with maybe a little Torturer thrown in.
Title: Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
Post by: Neirai the Forgiven on May 10, 2018, 09:20:51 am
Officially announced on Reddit!