Dominion Strategy Forum

Dominion => Dominion Articles => Topic started by: werothegreat on February 09, 2017, 11:05:02 am

Title: Challenge: write a Moat article
Post by: werothegreat on February 09, 2017, 11:05:02 am
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/f/fe/Moat.jpg)

So the Pearl Diver article challenge was pretty productive!  I figured I'd start up a new one - write an article about Moat!  What strategic depths can you plumb with this simple Base set card?
Title: Re: Challenge: write a Moat article
Post by: ehunt on February 09, 2017, 11:42:00 am
i guess the biggest thing is that dry +2 cards is way better than it was back when the Base set was released.
Title: Re: Challenge: write a Moat article
Post by: DG on February 09, 2017, 11:46:59 am
I think it would be a challenge to write a moat article. The card is simple but the strategy surrounding it can be quite complex. It is much more sensitive to its environment than most cards.
Title: Re: Challenge: write a Moat article
Post by: faust on February 09, 2017, 12:44:41 pm
Some thoughts on Moat.

1. Moat is an engine card
This is important to remember. Moat will hardly ever be any good outside of engines. There will virtually always be something better than Moat-BM. Other deck types have even less use for it. Don't just buy Moat in a non-engine deck because you want to block attacks; in almost all cases, it will be better to just get the attack yourself instead.

Thus, Moat is only ever worth getting with a splitter around. Other cards that help Moat are trashing and an +buy. There are board where the engine is only possible because of Moat; in that case, you of course need to get it (unless you can do something better). The more intestesting question is: Do you want to add Moat to an engine that could also be built without it?

2. When to defend from attacks
The key utility of Moat is of course its reaction. But getting attacked does not automatically mean you need Moat.

Junking - here, you should probably have a way to trash junk if you want to build an engine. And usually, the better way to defend yourself is to get more trashing. Or, you know, junk back. Moat versus junking mostly won't work out, unless you can set yourself up a thin deck really quickly but the opportunity cost of trashing more is high (e.g. with Donate).

Discarding - It's still probably not great. Moat is one card in your hand that could be something better, so you've discard-attacked yourself a bit. A better way to defend against e.g. Militia is to build more so that you can get going from a 3-card hand. But some attacks are really nasty and it's worth blocking them; Ghost Ship and Legionary deserve a mention here.

Trashing - Probably the nastiest attack type for engines. If you expect to get hit by trashing regularly, Moat can really help you out. Additional benefit is that as a $2, Moat itself is mostly immune to these attacks, and helps you neutralize them even when it's not in your hand. This is a case where you really might consider using Moat instead of some stronger draw.

In general, the more (stacking) attacks your opponent plays this turn, the better you Moat gets. Trashing is particularly important to prevent. Moat of course also benefits from cards that can make sure it's in your hand every turn (Scheme, Harbinger etc.)

3. Moat is cheap draw

Sometimes it's really all you need. This is true whenever there's an overabundance of +action. Like all terminal draw, Moat can be a great Lost Arts target. Champion + Moat seems redundant, but it's actually quite decent. With enough Villages, two Moats for $4 and two buys might even be better than a Smithy.

This sounds nice, but the reality is that Moat is one of the worse ways to add drawing power to your engine. If there is another way, and it's not something outlandish like Beggar/Spice Merchant, you're usually better off going for that.
Title: Re: Challenge: write a Moat article
Post by: werothegreat on February 09, 2017, 01:53:57 pm
Quote from: faust on February 09, 2017, 12:44:41 pm
In general, the more (stacking) attacks your opponent plays this turn, the better you Moat gets.

I think Torturer stacks in particular might deserve a mention here, or maybe Warrior.
Title: Re: Challenge: write a Moat article
Post by: 2.71828..... on February 09, 2017, 05:08:02 pm
Quote from: werothegreat on February 09, 2017, 01:53:57 pm
Quote from: faust on February 09, 2017, 12:44:41 pm
In general, the more (stacking) attacks your opponent plays this turn, the better you Moat gets.

I think Torturer stacks in particular might deserve a mention here, or maybe Warrior.

If your opponent is able to build a big warrior stack before you are able to get a champion up and running you have probably lost the game at that point
Title: Re: Challenge: write a Moat article
Post by: werothegreat on February 09, 2017, 05:29:20 pm
Quote from: 2.71828..... on February 09, 2017, 05:08:02 pm
Quote from: werothegreat on February 09, 2017, 01:53:57 pm
Quote from: faust on February 09, 2017, 12:44:41 pm
In general, the more (stacking) attacks your opponent plays this turn, the better you Moat gets.

I think Torturer stacks in particular might deserve a mention here, or maybe Warrior.

If your opponent is able to build a big warrior stack before you are able to get a champion up and running you have probably lost the game at that point

Right, that's right, Champion exists, never mind
Title: Re: Challenge: write a Moat article
Post by: Omastar68 on February 09, 2017, 05:33:07 pm
I used to like Moat a lot, but I've since learned why it is regarded as such a weak card, even if it is only $2.

Too many Moats makes you accomplish nothing, better to attack too then rely on Moats to make sure you never get any Curses(for instance.) Moat might be a good buy on a 5/2 opening, but even there it might be worth it to get nothing on 2(or pay coin token if Baker is around. I'd also be very cautious about buying Moat on 2 if there are any other cards or events that could be bought instead. If you have Hovel, it may be worth it to get an Estate, especially w/ Inheritance around. Baths incentivize getting nothing.)

Moat is a good target for TFB, you'd want to get rid of Estates first ofc, but it's likely a better choice for, say, a Remodel target than a Copper.

All cheap cards like buys, and Moat also really likes Expedition and Save. Gear is also a 2 card draw, but setting Mot aside canbe really valuable on some boards.

I'm missing lots, but hopefully that's somewhat helpful:)
Title: Re: Challenge: write a Moat article
Post by: trivialknot on February 09, 2017, 05:59:07 pm
A decent article on Moat should talk about how it scales with the number of players.  After all, the easiest way to stack attacks is by being multiple people.
Title: Re: Challenge: write a Moat article
Post by: Kirian on February 09, 2017, 06:06:17 pm
Pretend I've put a bunch of what looks like an article here, completely spoilered, with just the word Moat halfway through.  Actually doing it would be all but impossible on mobile.
Title: Re: Challenge: write a Moat article
Post by: aku_chi on February 09, 2017, 06:20:06 pm
Some other Moat synergies that might be worth mentioning:

As reaction
Save (really easy to have continual protection from attacks)
Secret Passage
And note that Haven and Gear don't work the way you'd want.

As draw
Throne Room (and variants)

Edit: And I agree that Torturer deserves a mention.  Using Moat to stop a string of Torturers is huge.
Title: Re: Challenge: write a Moat article
Post by: werothegreat on February 09, 2017, 06:25:14 pm
Might also be valuable to compare Moat to the other defensive cards - most specifically Lighthouse and Champion, and to a lesser extent Watchtower, Horse Traders, Beggar, Diplomat, Caravan Guard, Trader.
Title: Re: Challenge: write a Moat article
Post by: Deadlock39 on February 09, 2017, 10:56:32 pm
Moat gets a lot better with more players, but we don't talk about those types of games much here.
Title: Re: Challenge: write a Moat article
Post by: Awaclus on February 10, 2017, 04:47:40 am
The first rule of multiplayer games is: you don't talk about multiplayer games.
Title: Re: Challenge: write a Moat article
Post by: SirPeebles on February 10, 2017, 08:24:32 am
Filling your deck with cantrips will dilute your Moats making it harder to defend with them.
Title: Re: Challenge: write a Moat article
Post by: SettingFraming on February 10, 2017, 12:10:29 pm
My favorite use of Moat is on engines boards where all the pieces are there, but there's a junker and limited thinning (such as copper-only thinning, as if there's no thinning at all you're probably just lost). If you can gain cheap cards easily, such as Villages and Moat's, it can be correct to flood your deck with them and win the junking war and the game.
Title: Re: Challenge: write a Moat article
Post by: gamesou on February 10, 2017, 02:13:09 pm
Moat can be a key card in Governor+discard attack games.
Title: Re: Challenge: write a Moat article
Post by: xyz123 on February 10, 2017, 02:48:00 pm
A few points I think are worth noting.

Against junking attacks Moat often isn't a defence in itself. Sooner or later your opponent is going play their attack when you don't have your Moat in hand. You need to be doing something else with the curses or ruins, whether that be trashing them or playing your own attack to stick them in your opponent's deck.

I have noticed that new players have a tendency to overbuy Moat thinking that if you have lots of them there is more chance of one being in their hand when someone plays an attack. This often results in terminal collision.

Save has already been mentioned but there are other ways of ensuring you have a Moat in hand each turn, Scheme for example. If you can draw your deck, cards that allow you to put a card on top of your deck can also keep your Moat perpetually in your hand.
Title: Re: Challenge: write a Moat article
Post by: SirPeebles on February 11, 2017, 07:46:04 pm
Quote from: xyz123 on February 10, 2017, 02:48:00 pm
Against junking attacks Moat often isn't a defence in itself. Sooner or later your opponent is going play their attack when you don't have your Moat in hand.

You might not be able to block all of the curses, but so long as your opponents put more curses into their decks than yours you've come out ahead.
Title: Re: Challenge: write a Moat article
Post by: luser on February 12, 2017, 07:37:50 am
When you mentioned champion moat becomes much better card on boards with champion.

Champion's part about protecting vs attack doesn't protect you much. Curser gives you five curses before you could get champion, knights will half of time trash your hero/champion before you could play it. It only helps vs warrior as hero is immune to it and discard attacks.

Now in junker/trasher case if you picked moats while evolving champion you would get decent protection and would have lot of laboratories once champion becomes online.
Title: Re: Challenge: write a Moat article
Post by: Titandrake on February 14, 2017, 01:11:40 am
I'm with DG here, it's hard to give general advice about Moat.


So, most of the time, buying Moat is crippling your deck. It's only worth buying when the chance you block the attack make the cost worth it, and that's what makes it so board dependent. The other reactions get incidental synergies. Lighthouse works well with Minion and Library. Horse Traders is good for slogs. Diplomat is good when you have discard-for-benefit cards, and Watchtower can fuel a draw-to-X engine. Moat is just, like, 2 Cards.

The best advice I can give on Moat is to imagine how bad it is if an attack goes through, and then pick up Moats until their protection isn't worth the cost. Which isn't very helpful, really.
Title: Re: Challenge: write a Moat article
Post by: majiponi on February 14, 2017, 07:50:27 am
Scheme, Secret Passage, Courtyard, Mandarin, Count, Artisan, etc.
Title: Re: Challenge: write a Moat article
Post by: Chris is me on February 14, 2017, 09:10:56 am
I'll write something soon, but here's the basic outline:

- Moat does two things: Draws cards and blocks attacks
- Why it kinda sucks at drawing cards
- Why it kinda sucks at blocking attacks
- When is it particularly okay at drawing cards
- When is it particularly okay at blocking attacks
- Better responses to most attack cards (bonus!)
Title: Re: Challenge: write a Moat article
Post by: majiponi on February 24, 2017, 08:15:18 am
Quote from: Chris is me on February 14, 2017, 09:10:56 am
I'll write something soon, but here's the basic outline:

- Moat does two things: Draws cards and blocks attacks
- Why it kinda sucks at drawing cards
- Why it kinda sucks at blocking attacks
- When is it particularly okay at drawing cards
- When is it particularly okay at blocking attacks
- Better responses to most attack cards (bonus!)
Another: Cheap Action - Feed it to Death Cart, Advance!
Title: Re: Challenge: write a Moat article
Post by: Asper on March 30, 2017, 01:28:06 pm
Several people here act as if multiplayer wasn't even a thing. This really distorts the judgement on a lot of cards imo. People are told "Pirate Ship and Moat suck" and "Fool's Gold rulez!" when both of these statements become increasingly untrue with more players. It's not like nobody ever plays multiplayer. Even Donald X states that he prefers 3P over 2P.

Somebody should really do a "changes with player count" article. You know, about the times when "winning the split" means you got 3 of something instead of 2...
Title: Re: Challenge: write a Moat article
Post by: Awaclus on March 30, 2017, 01:46:31 pm
Quote from: Asper on March 30, 2017, 01:28:06 pm
Several people here act as if multiplayer wasn't even a thing.

Probably because it isn't.
Title: Re: Challenge: write a Moat article
Post by: trivialknot on March 30, 2017, 02:15:36 pm
The DominionStrategy Wiki (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Moat) mentions that Moat has a synergy with 3+ players.  Looks like this is one of the cases where the wiki >> f.ds.  I'm sure f.ds is ok with settling for 2nd best though.
Title: Re: Challenge: write a Moat article
Post by: trivialknot on March 30, 2017, 02:19:30 pm
Although, I actually like that we get such bad advice for 3+ players.  Usually when my bf and I add a 3rd player, they're less experienced than us.  It's nice that they can sometimes beat us anyway because all our intuition is calibrated for 2P.
Title: Re: Challenge: write a Moat article
Post by: aku_chi on March 30, 2017, 03:10:36 pm
Pirate Ship is not notably better in 3+ player games.  Moat is, if there are stacking attacks present (e.g. most junkers).
Title: Re: Challenge: write a Moat article
Post by: Awaclus on March 30, 2017, 03:18:43 pm
Quote from: trivialknot on March 30, 2017, 02:15:36 pm
The DominionStrategy Wiki (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Moat) mentions that Moat has a synergy with 3+ players.  Looks like this is one of the cases where the wiki >> f.ds.

Well, the wiki is more casual than f.ds in many aspects.
Title: Re: Challenge: write a Moat article
Post by: Asper on March 30, 2017, 04:35:24 pm
Seriously Awaclus, Dominion's a board game. It might not occur to you, but people playing an online implementation for duellist rankings are neither the only, nor the most relevant group it's targeted towards. Your preferences are just that and don't override the preferences of others. Stop bullying people who want to talk about multiplayer.
Title: Re: Challenge: write a Moat article
Post by: Awaclus on March 30, 2017, 05:22:23 pm
Quote from: Asper on March 30, 2017, 04:35:24 pm
Seriously Awaclus, Dominion's a board game. It might not occur to you, but people playing an online implementation for duellist rankings are neither the only, nor the most relevant group it's targeted towards.

They are, however, the only and the most relevant group my posts are targeted towards.
Title: Re: Challenge: write a Moat article
Post by: Razzishi on March 31, 2017, 08:20:22 pm
Didn't someone once upon a time simulate that in a 4-player game where 3 players go Witch/Moat, that Moat/Moat will win most often (perhaps only 30% of the time, but that's pretty good in 4P)?  At very least it's probably the best strategy available to Player 4: hope everyone else slows each other down more than you're getting slowed down, and benefit from having a slightly better deck due to spending 3 less on one of your Moats.
Title: Re: Challenge: write a Moat article
Post by: Donald X. on March 31, 2017, 09:24:00 pm
Quote from: Awaclus on March 30, 2017, 01:46:31 pm
Quote from: Asper on March 30, 2017, 01:28:06 pm
Several people here act as if multiplayer wasn't even a thing.

Probably because it isn't.
what have I been playing all these years

because damn I should try to get this published
Title: Re: Challenge: write a Moat article
Post by: JThorne on April 07, 2017, 10:54:52 am
Of note is a tiny piece of counter-intuitive math that I like to bring up to newish players. It applies to all draw-2 cards, not just Moat.

A draw-3 action isn't 50% more powerful than draw-2. It's twice as powerful. New players see it as "almost as good."

Since each card you buy also adds a card to your deck, when you're engine-building, buying a draw+3 effectively shrinks your deck by two cards. buying a draw+2 shrinks your deck by one card. It's half as good. It's like the difference in trashing power between Steward and Trade Route. (Notably, non-terminal draw+2s are effective because you buy the same number of cards for the same amount of drawing power as a village/draw+3, with the added benefit of more reliability.)

When a player sees that, with no trashing, it would take 5 copies of Village/Smithy to draw deck, but all 10 copies of Village/Moat to draw deck, that should hammer home the point.

Speaking of hammering home points, something else I see with alarming regularity is players underestimating the importance of +card in general. They buy too many terminals, or too much treasure, or too many +action cards that don't draw at all. Drawing even one card is a BIG DEAL. Seriously. It's what makes those yellow cards poison. It's why Baker is $5 and Candlestick Maker is $2 (and it even needed a +buy bump to be relevant!) Also, Pathfinding says Hi.