Dominion Strategy Forum

Dominion => Dominion General Discussion => Topic started by: Qvist on January 18, 2017, 08:27:37 am

Title: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: Qvist on January 18, 2017, 08:27:37 am
The Best (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/7/7d/Coin5.png/16px-Coin5.png) Cards - Part 1/10

40+ votes for Empires cards, ~54 votes for the rest.

https://youtu.be/xMoPDlrHQKY

(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/1/1c/Harvest.jpg/200px-Harvest.jpg)#96 ▼1 Harvest (Cornucopia) Weighted Average: 5.2% ▼2.4pp / Unweighted Average: 6.1% / Median: 2.4% ▼2.2pp / Standard Deviation: 9.8%

Counting House was last every time, but Harvest ousts it from the last rank. Harvest was voted last 15 times and has a very low deviation as it was never voted above average.
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/6/66/Cache.jpg/200px-Cache.jpg)#95 ▼1 Cache (Hinterlands) Weighted Average: 6.9% ▼1.0pp / Unweighted Average: 8.3% / Median: 4.2% ▼0.7pp / Standard Deviation: 12.1%

Cache also loses one rank and is now second to last. It was voted last 6 times and has only one vote above average. It is 2 ranks higher in the unweighted ranking.
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/6/60/Saboteur.jpg/200px-Saboteur.jpg)#94 ▼2 Saboteur (Intrigue) Weighted Average: 7.2% ▼2.2pp / Unweighted Average: 8.0% / Median: 5.1% ▼2.2pp / Standard Deviation: 10.7%

Saboteur was second to last 2 times and lost 2 ranks this year to be close to that, third to last. It was voted last 9 times with only one outlier way higher than 26%.
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/5/5d/Counting_House.jpg/200px-Counting_House.jpg)#93 ▲3 Counting House (Prosperity) Weighted Average: 7.6% ▲0.2pp / Unweighted Average: 7.4% / Median: 4.2% ▼1.9pp / Standard Deviation: 8.0%

Couting House is not last anymore, no it went up 3 ranks, but still with around the same average. It was voted last 4 times and has a really low deviation with no votes above average and only 1 vote above 27%. It is 2 ranks lower in the unweighted ranking.
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/2/23/Stash.jpg/200px-Stash.jpg)#92 ▲1 Stash (Promo) Weighted Average: 9.1% ▲0.1pp / Unweighted Average: 9.9% / Median: 4.2% ▼3.1pp / Standard Deviation: 13.9%

Stash is the second $5 treasure card at the bottom, but won one rank with basically the same average. It was voted last 5 times with one outlier above 41%.
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/5/58/Contraband.jpg/200px-Contraband.jpg)#91 =0 Contraband (Prosperity) Weighted Average: 9.6% ▼2.7pp / Unweighted Average: 12.1% / Median: 6.9% ▲2.9pp / Standard Deviation: 16.7%

Contraband is the third $5 treasure card and stays on the same rank, but with a lower average. It was voted last 3 times and has a pretty high deviation for a low ranked card as it got 5 votes way above 22%. It is 2 ranks higher in the unweighted ranking.
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/6/68/Mandarin.jpg/200px-Mandarin.jpg)#90 =0 Mandarin (Hinterlands) Weighted Average: 10.4% ▼2.5pp / Unweighted Average: 12.0% / Median: 8.1% ▼2.9pp / Standard Deviation: 11.7%

Mandarin stays on the same rank as well with a lower average. It's the first card with no votes on the last rank.
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/8/8e/Mine.jpg/200px-Mine.jpg)#89 ▼2 Mine (Base) Weighted Average: 11.6% ▼4.0pp / Unweighted Average: 13.5% / Median: 9.5% ▼4.4pp / Standard Deviation: 12.3%

Mine lost 2 ranks, the 2 ranks it went up last year. It was voted last twice and has one big outlier above 41%. It is one rank higher in the unweighted ranking.
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/d/dd/Royal_Seal.jpg/200px-Royal_Seal.jpg)#88 ▲1 Royal Seal (Prosperity) Weighted Average: 11.7% ▼2.5pp / Unweighted Average: 13.8% / Median: 9.8% ▼1.2pp / Standard Deviation: 10.7%

Royal Seal is the fourth $5 treasure card in the bottom 10, but is one rank better with a worse average. It is one rank higher in the unweighted ranking. It has only a small lead over Mine of 0.08pp.
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/3/3a/Explorer.jpg/200px-Explorer.jpg)#87 ▲1 Explorer (Seaside) Weighted Average: 12.0% ▼2.7pp / Unweighted Average: 11.7% / Median: 9.8% ▼1.2pp / Standard Deviation: 7.2%

Explorer is one rank better with a lower average just like Royal Seal. It was voted last once, has the second lowest deviation in this list with no vote above 36%. It is 4 ranks lower in the unweighted ranking, so underappreciated by newer players.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: Qvist on January 18, 2017, 08:27:53 am
The Best (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/7/7d/Coin5.png/16px-Coin5.png) Cards - Part 2/8

https://youtu.be/_a9obVkjfyY

(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/0/00/Tribute.jpg/200px-Tribute.jpg)#86 =0 Tribute (Intrigue) Weighted Average: 12.0% ▼5.0pp / Unweighted Average: 13.7% / Median: 8.5% ▼6.1pp / Standard Deviation: 14.4%

Tribute stays on the same rank, but lost 5pp. It has a small lead over Explorer of 0.04pp. It was voted last once and is one rank lower in the unweighted ranking.
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/8/89/Raid.jpg/320px-Raid.jpg)#85 =0 Raid (Adventures) Weighted Average: 16.2% ▼3.1pp / Unweighted Average: 17.1% / Median: 12.6% ▼3.3pp / Standard Deviation: 16.3%

Raid is in between the bottom tier and the next tier with a 4pp gap in front and behind it. It stays on the same rank, but lost 3pp. It was voted last 3 times.
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/f/f6/Rogue.jpg/200px-Rogue.jpg)#84 =0 Rogue (Dark Ages) Weighted Average: 20.1% ▼3.1pp / Unweighted Average: 20.1% / Median: 15.9% ▼3.9pp / Standard Deviation: 13.0%

And Rogue is the next card that stays on the same rank and also with a worse average.
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/7/74/Pillage.jpg/200px-Pillage.jpg)#83 =0 Pillage (Dark Ages) Weighted Average: 21.4% ▼3.1pp / Unweighted Average: 23.9% / Median: 17.9% ▼3.1pp / Standard Deviation: 19.2%

And the fourth card in a row which is on the same rank but lost in its average. It is one rank higher in the unweighted ranking.
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/9/92/Merchant_Ship.jpg/200px-Merchant_Ship.jpg)#82 ▼2 Merchant Ship (Seaside) Weighted Average: 22.4% ▼5.8pp / Unweighted Average: 22.9% / Median: 17.1% ▼8.5pp / Standard Deviation: 16.1%

Merchant Ship continues to fall, this year 2 ranks and nearly 6pp. It is one rank lower in the unweighted ranking.
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/e/ef/Venture.jpg/200px-Venture.jpg)#81 ▼4 Venture (Prosperity) Weighted Average: 22.9% ▼8.1pp / Unweighted Average: 26.2% / Median: 17.9% ▼13.8pp / Standard Deviation: 19.9%

Venture continues to fall as well, this year 4 more ranks and over 8pp.
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/b/bc/Mint.jpg/200px-Mint.jpg)#80 ▼1 Mint (Prosperity) Weighted Average: 27.0% ▼2.4pp / Unweighted Average: 27.9% / Median: 21.7% ▼3.3pp / Standard Deviation: 17.3%

Mint loses one rank and therefore continues to be at around the same rank. It has a solid lead of over 4pp over Venture.
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/f/fd/Treasury.jpg/200px-Treasury.jpg)#79 ▼3 Treasury (Seaside) Weighted Average: 28.2% ▼3.5pp / Unweighted Average: 30.9% / Median: 25.6% ▼6.5pp / Standard Deviation: 16.8%

Treasury loses 3 ranks and over 3pp. It is one rank higher in the unweighted ranking.
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/1/13/Graverobber.jpg/200px-Graverobber.jpg)#78 ▼5 Graverobber (Dark Ages) Weighted Average: 29.0% ▼6.0pp / Unweighted Average: 33.0% / Median: 25.9% ▼6.2pp/ Standard Deviation: 18.4%

Graverobber lost quite a bit, 5 ranks and 6pp, the 5 ranks it went up last year. It is one rank higher in the unweighted ranking.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: Qvist on January 18, 2017, 08:27:59 am
The Best (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/7/7d/Coin5.png/16px-Coin5.png) Cards - Part 3/10

https://youtu.be/PPnKhfH1mbw

(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/3/37/Mystic.jpg/200px-Mystic.jpg)#77 ▼3 Mystic (Dark Ages) Weighted Average: 32.3% ▼2.3pp / Unweighted Average: 33.5% / Median: 26.3% ▼5.4pp / Standard Deviation: 19.8%

Having a lead of 3.3pp over Graverobber, Mystic is next on the list losing 3 ranks. It is 3 ranks higher in the unweighted ranking.
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/f/fe/Emporium.jpg/200px-Emporium.jpg)#76 Emporium (Empires) Weighted Average: 33.2% / Unweighted Average: 33.7% / Median: 31.6% / Standard Deviation: 17.5%

Emporium is the worst of the 13 new entries in this list, the second worst Peddler variant in this list. It is 3 ranks higher in the unweighted ranking.
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/f/f8/Windfall.jpg/320px-Windfall.jpg)#75 Windfall (Empires) Weighted Average: 33.2% / Unweighted Average: 29.3% / Median: 24.2% / Standard Deviation: 22.4%

Windfall is the second new Empires card in a row and has only a lead of 0.04pp over Emporium. Windfall is 4 ranks lower in the unweighted ranking and has even a worse median. It was voted last twice and has the highest deviation in this list so far.
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/d/d6/Cartographer.jpg/200px-Cartographer.jpg)#74 ▼17 Cartographer (Hinterlands) Weighted Average: 34.8% ▼12.9pp / Unweighted Average: 38.1% / Median: 31.6% ▼14.4pp / Standard Deviation: 21.1%

Cartographer is a big loser in this list, it loses 17 ranks and nearly 13pp and is therefore lower than ever before. It is still 6 ranks higher in the unweighted ranking.
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/d/df/Ball.jpg/320px-Ball.jpg)#73 ▼5 Ball (Adventures) Weighted Average: 35.0% ▼1.6pp / Unweighted Average: 33.3% / Median: 31.6% ▼1.3pp / Standard Deviation: 21.1%

Ball lost a quite a bit as well, 5 ranks. It was voted last once and is even 3 more ranks lower in the unweighted ranking.
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/4/4c/Giant.jpg/200px-Giant.jpg)#72 ▼10 Giant (Adventures) Weighted Average: 36.0% ▼7.9pp / Unweighted Average: 37.2% / Median: 34.7% ▼8.5pp / Standard Deviation: 19.7%

Giant is another loser, 10 ranks and nearly 8pp. It is 2 ranks higher in the unweighted ranking.
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/d/df/Seaway.jpg/320px-Seaway.jpg)#71 ▲2 Seaway (Adventures) Weighted Average: 36.2% ▲4.2pp / Unweighted Average: 33.5% / Median: 29.5% ▲0.7pp / Standard Deviation: 21.1%

Seaway is the first card in a long while that went up a few ranks, 2 to be exact. But it is 4 ranks lower in the unweighted ranking.
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/9/98/Library.jpg/200px-Library.jpg)#70 ▼3 Library (Base) Weighted Average: 37.1% ▼1.3pp / Unweighted Average: 36.9% / Median: 33.7% ▼3.2pp / Standard Deviation: 16.7%

Library lost 3 ranks and is basically on the same rank as 2 years ago. It is one more rank lower in the unweighted ranking.
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/7/7e/Market.jpg/200px-Market.jpg)#69 ▼6 Market (Base) Weighted Average: 37.6% ▼6.1pp / Unweighted Average: 40.6% / Median: 35.8% ▼6.9pp / Standard Deviation: 18.3%

Market is the third worst Peddler variant and lost quite a bit, 6 ranks and around 6pp. It is 5 ranks higher in the unweighted ranking.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: Qvist on January 18, 2017, 08:28:06 am
The Best (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/7/7d/Coin5.png/16px-Coin5.png) Cards - Part 4/10

https://youtu.be/BljyMTi_gY4

(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/b/b2/Wine_Merchant.jpg/200px-Wine_Merchant.jpg)#68 ▲11 Wine Merchant (Adventures) Weighted Average: 37.9% ▲10.4pp / Unweighted Average: 39.1% / Median: 41.1% ▲16.7pp / Standard Deviation: 19.8%

Wine Merchant is still on exactly the same rank, but that it means it's 11 ranks better, that's quite a lot. It's one rank higher in the unweighted ranking.
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/b/b4/Outpost.jpg/200px-Outpost.jpg)#67 ▲9 Outpost (Seaside) Weighted Average: 38.0% ▲7.7pp / Unweighted Average: 36.3% / Median: 31.7% ▲6.1pp / Standard Deviation: 21.0%

Outpost went up nearly as much as Wine Merchant, 9 ranks and 8pp. It has also a very small lead of 0.04pp over Wine Merchant. It's still 5 ranks lower in the unweighted ranking.
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/5/51/Band_of_Misfits.jpg/200px-Band_of_Misfits.jpg)#66 ▼1 Band of Misfits (Dark Ages) Weighted Average: 38.2% ▼4.4pp / Unweighted Average: 41.0% / Median: 36.8% ▼5.9pp / Standard Deviation: 18.6%

Band of Misfits continues to stay at the around the same rank, but lost over 4pp. It's 3 ranks higher in the unweighted ranking.
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/1/1f/Inn.jpg/200px-Inn.jpg)#65 ▼1 Inn (Hinterlands) Weighted Average: 38.3% ▼4.6pp / Unweighted Average: 37.6% / Median: 34.8% ▼7.2pp / Standard Deviation: 16.3%

Inn also loses one rank and over 4pp, just like Band of Misfits. It has only a small lead of 0.05pp over it. It is 4 ranks lower in the unweighted ranking.
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/e/eb/Capital.jpg/200px-Capital.jpg)#64 Capital (Empires) Weighted Average: 40.3% / Unweighted Average: 42.0% / Median: 41.1% / Standard Deviation: 20.5%

Capital is the third Empires card in this list. It's 2 ranks higher in the unweighted ranking.
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/d/da/Plunder.jpg/200px-Plunder.jpg)#63 Plunder (Empires) Weighted Average: 41.4% / Unweighted Average: 44.5% / Median: 41.1% / Standard Deviation: 20.0%

Again there are 2 Empires cards in a row. Plunder is 2 ranks higher in the unweighted ranking as well.
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/9/9d/Trade.jpg/320px-Trade.jpg)#62 ▲16 Trade (Adventures) Weighted Average: 42.5% ▲16.0pp / Unweighted Average: 40.6% / Median: 35.8% ▲11.8pp / Standard Deviation: 20.8%

Trade is a big winner, making a huge jump of 16 ranks and 16pp. It is 3 ranks lower in the unweighted ranking.
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/6/62/Vault.jpg/200px-Vault.jpg)#61 ▼13 Vault (Prosperity) Weighted Average: 43.5% ▼9.6pp / Unweighted Average: 45.8% / Median: 43.2% ▼12.2pp / Standard Deviation: 20.6%

After a big winner, there is another big loser. Vault lost 13 ranks, even more than the 12 ranks it lost 2 years ago. It is 2 ranks higher in the unweighted ranking.
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/3/36/Trading_Post.jpg/200px-Trading_Post.jpg)#60 ▲7 Trading Post (Intrigue) Weighted Average: 43.7% ▲8.5pp / Unweighted Average: 40.6% / Median: 33.7% ▼0.1pp / Standard Deviation: 19.8%

Trading Post won a lot of ranks just like its namesake Trade, but not quite as much: 7 ranks. It is 6 ranks lower in the unweighted ranking. And its median is way worse than its average.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: Qvist on January 18, 2017, 08:28:12 am
The Best (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/7/7d/Coin5.png/16px-Coin5.png) Cards - Part 5/10

https://youtu.be/ruvPzx_zkic

(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/d/de/Charm.jpg/200px-Charm.jpg)#59 Charm (Empires) Weighted Average: 47.0% / Unweighted Average: 47.7% / Median: 45.3% / Standard Deviation: 19.9%

Charm is the 5th Empires card and 3 cards higher in the unweighted ranking.
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/e/ec/Festival.jpg/200px-Festival.jpg)#58 ▼1 Festival (Base) Weighted Average: 46.6% ▲0.7pp / Unweighted Average: 48.8% / Median: 46.2% ▼1.5pp / Standard Deviation: 17.5%

Festival stays at around the same, loses one rank, but has a slightly better average. It is 6 ranks higher in the unweighted ranking and therefore overrated by newer players.
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/1/15/Forum.jpg/200px-Forum.jpg)#57 Forum (Empires) Weighted Average: 47.5% / Unweighted Average: 46.5% / Median: 46.3% / Standard Deviation: 18.6%

Forum is the 6th Empires card and one rank lower in the unweighted ranking.
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/1/10/Duke.jpg/200px-Duke.jpg)#56 ▼8 Duke (Intrigue) Weighted Average: 48.0% ▼4.4pp / Unweighted Average: 47.7% / Median: 45.3% ▼7.8pp / Standard Deviation: 23.1%

Just like last year, Duke continues to drastically fall. It lost 8 ranks this year. It is one rank higher in the unweighted ranking. It has the highest deviation in this list so far.
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/a/af/Merchant_Guild.jpg/200px-Merchant_Guild.jpg)#55 =0 Merchant Guild (Guilds) Weighted Average: 48.3% ▲1.4pp / Unweighted Average: 48.3% / Median: 46.3% ▲1.2pp / Standard Deviation: 18.0%

Merchant Guild stays on the same rank, but has a slightly better average. It is 2 ranks higher in the unweighted ranking.
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/0/01/Artificer.jpg/200px-Artificer.jpg)#54 ▼2 Artificer (Adventures) Weighted Average: 48.3% ▼0.1pp / Unweighted Average: 49.3% / Median: 48.4% ▼1.0pp / Standard Deviation: 18.4%

Artificer has a small lead over Merchant Guild of 0.02pp. It lost 2 ranks but has around the same average. It is 4 ranks higher in the unweighted ranking.
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/2/22/Treasure_Trove.jpg/200px-Treasure_Trove.jpg)#53 ▲13 Treasure Trove (Adventures) Weighted Average: 48.5% ▲13.4pp / Unweighted Average: 47.5% / Median: 43.2% ▲13.9pp / Standard Deviation: 25.6%

Treasure Trove is a big winner. It's 13 ranks and 13pp better. It is 4 ranks lower in the unweighted ranking. It has the highest deviation in this list.
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/3/33/Groundskeeper.jpg/200px-Groundskeeper.jpg)#52 Groundskeeper (Empires) Weighted Average: 49.0% / Unweighted Average: 49.0% / Median: 47.4% / Standard Deviation: 23.5%

Groundskeeper is the 7th Empires card and therefore the middle one. It is one rank higher in the unweighted ranking and has a high deviation.
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/e/e0/Council_Room.jpg/200px-Council_Room.jpg)#51 ▲5 Council Room (Base) Weighted Average: 49.3% ▲4.9pp / Unweighted Average: 47.8% / Median: 48.4% ▲3.8pp / Standard Deviation: 18.8%

Council Room is 5 ranks and 5pp better than last year and therefore continues to rise. It is 3 ranks lower in the unweighted ranking.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: Qvist on January 18, 2017, 08:28:18 am
The Best (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/7/7d/Coin5.png/16px-Coin5.png) Cards - Part 6/10

https://youtu.be/UWSLUNnsr_U

(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/2/26/Archive.jpg/200px-Archive.jpg)#50 Archive (Empires) Weighted Average: 50.0% / Unweighted Average: 53.2% / Median: 51.6% / Standard Deviation: 21.9%

Archive is the 6th best Empires card in this list and 7 ranks higher in the unweighted list, so overrated by newer players.
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/8/82/Journeyman.jpg/200px-Journeyman.jpg)#49 ▼2 Journeyman (Guilds) Weighted Average: 50.3% ▼0.5pp / Unweighted Average: 51.1% / Median: 50.5% ▲4.2pp / Standard Deviation: 18.3%

Journeyman lost 2 ranks but has around the same average. It is 2 ranks better in the unweighted ranking.
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/6/6a/Storyteller.jpg/200px-Storyteller.jpg)#48 ▲4 Storyteller (Adventures) Weighted Average: 50.9% ▲3.3pp / Unweighted Average: 50.1% / Median: 50.0% ▲3.7pp / Standard Deviation: 19.9%

Storyteller is 4 ranks and over 3pp better and the first card in the upper half of this list. It is one rank lower in the unweighted ranking.
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/4/43/Bandit_Camp.jpg/200px-Bandit_Camp.jpg)#47 ▼8 Bandit Camp (Dark Ages) Weighted Average: 51.4% ▼5.9pp / Unweighted Average: 52.5% / Median: 54.7% ▼2.1pp / Standard Deviation: 19.1%

Bandit Camp lost quite a bit: 8 ranks and nearly 6pp. It is still 3 ranks higher in the unweighted ranking.
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/c/c9/Triumph.jpg/320px-Triumph.jpg)#46 Triumph (Empires) Weighted Average: 51.5% / Unweighted Average: 45.4% / Median: 43.2% / Standard Deviation: 23.9%

Triumph is the 5th best Empires card and unbelievable 14 ranks lower in the unweighted ranking, so terribly underrated by newer players. It has the third highest deviation in this list.
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/b/b9/Baker.jpg/200px-Baker.jpg)#45 ▼1 Baker (Guilds) Weighted Average: 51.9% ▼0.8pp / Unweighted Average: 53.4% / Median: 51.9% ▼4.2pp / Standard Deviation: 22.0%

Baker hardly changed, it's one rank and less than 1pp worse. It's 3 ranks higher in the unweighted ranking.
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/9/91/Ill-Gotten_Gains.jpg/200px-Ill-Gotten_Gains.jpg)#44 ▼10 Ill-Gotten Gains (Hinterlands) Weighted Average: 51.9% ▼8.5pp / Unweighted Average: 55.0% / Median: 53.7% ▼9.7pp / Standard Deviation: 23.0%

Ill-Gotten Gains continues its losing trend. It lost 10 more ranks. It is still 5 ranks higher in the unweighted ranking. It has only a small lead of 0.02pp over Baker.
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/2/2f/Embassy.jpg/200px-Embassy.jpg)#43 ▼7 Embassy (Hinterlands) Weighted Average: 52.2% ▼6.0pp / Unweighted Average: 51.6% / Median: 48.4% ▼10.1pp / Standard Deviation: 18.5%

Embassy lost nearly as much as Ill-Gotten Gains, 7 ranks and 6pp and is therefore on its losing trend as well. It is even 2 more ranks worse in the unweighted ranking.
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/1/1b/Jester.jpg/200px-Jester.jpg)#42 ▲5 Jester (Cornucopia) Weighted Average: 52.3% ▲1.7pp / Unweighted Average: 53.7% / Median: 49.5% ▲1.9pp / Standard Deviation: 20.5%

For the first time ever Jester went up a few ranks, 5 ranks to be exact. It has a small lead over Embassy of 0.06pp. It is one rank better in the unweighted ranking.
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/d/d3/Relic.jpg/200px-Relic.jpg)#41 ▲18 Relic (Adventures) Weighted Average: 53.7% ▲14.3pp / Unweighted Average: 51.0% / Median: 53.7% ▲18.3pp / Standard Deviation: 18.8%

Relic is a big winner, amazing 18 ranks and over 14pp better. It is 7 ranks lower in the unweighted ranking, so newer players didn't quite follow the trend.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: Qvist on January 18, 2017, 08:28:24 am
The Best (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/7/7d/Coin5.png/16px-Coin5.png) Cards - Part 7/10

https://youtu.be/FMc4Y0r2NSs

(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/f/f1/Rabble.jpg/200px-Rabble.jpg)#40 =0 Rabble (Prosperity) Weighted Average: 55.1% ▲1.2pp / Unweighted Average: 56.9% / Median: 57.9% ▲7.9pp / Standard Deviation: 19.8%

Rabble stays on the same rank and its average is similar as well. It is 6 ranks higher in the unweighted ranking.
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/e/ee/Summon.jpg/320px-Summon.jpg)#39 ▼2 Summon (Promo) Weighted Average: 55.2% ▼2.5pp / Unweighted Average: 51.2% / Median: 53.7% ▼3.6pp / Standard Deviation: 25.4%

Summon lost 2 ranks and has a small lead over Rabble of 0.15pp. It has the second highest deviation in this list with newer player voting it lower, ranking it 7 ranks lower in the unweighted ranking.
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/c/cd/Catacombs.jpg/200px-Catacombs.jpg)#38 ▲3 Catacombs (Dark Ages) Weighted Average: 55.4% ▲1.5pp / Unweighted Average: 54.0% / Median: 54.7% ▲2.4pp / Standard Deviation: 17.0%

Losing 9 ranks 2 years ago, Catacombs slowly went up last year and this year. It is 2 ranks lower in the unweighted ranking.
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/3/30/City.jpg/200px-City.jpg)#37 ▲5 City (Prosperity) Weighted Average: 55.6% ▲2.1pp / Unweighted Average: 56.6% / Median: 56.1% ▲1.2pp / Standard Deviation: 18.0%

City is just like last year 5 ranks better than the year before. It is 2 ranks higher in the unweighted ranking.
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/3/3e/Distant_Lands.jpg/200px-Distant_Lands.jpg)#36 ▲12 Distant Lands (Adventures) Weighted Average: 56.9% ▲6.4pp / Unweighted Average: 56.3% / Median: 53.7% ▲2.5pp / Standard Deviation: 20.2%

Distant Lands is another big winner. It is 12 ranks and over 6pp better than last year. It is 2 ranks worse in the unweighted ranking.
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/d/db/Swamp_Hag.jpg/200px-Swamp_Hag.jpg)#35 ▼12 Swamp Hag (Adventures) Weighted Average: 58.0% ▼10.9pp / Unweighted Average: 59.3% / Median: 60.5% ▼10.2pp / Standard Deviation: 21.1%

While Distant Lands is 12 ranks better, Swamp Hag lost those 12 ranks and 11pp. It is 3 ranks higher in the unweighted ranking.
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/0/01/Soothsayer.jpg/200px-Soothsayer.jpg)#34 ▲1 Soothsayer (Guilds) Weighted Average: 58.9% ▼0.3pp / Unweighted Average: 59.0% / Median: 66.3% ▲3.2pp / Standard Deviation: 22.7%

Soothsayer stayed around the same. It has a pretty high deviation and is one rank higher in the unweighted ranking.
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/c/c6/Bustling_Village.jpg/200px-Bustling_Village.jpg)#33 Bustling Village (Empires) Weighted Average: 59.5% / Unweighted Average: 56.6% / Median: 51.6% / Standard Deviation: 23.5%

Bustling Village is the 4th best Empires card. It is 3 ranks lower in the unweighted ranking and it has a really high deviation.
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/f/f7/Bazaar.jpg/200px-Bazaar.jpg)#32 ▲6 Bazaar (Seaside) Weighted Average: 59.7% ▲2.9pp / Unweighted Average: 56.5% / Median: 56.8% ▼0.1pp / Standard Deviation: 16.1%

Bazaar is 6 ranks and 3pp better than last year. It is 5 ranks lower in the unweighted ranking.
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/6/64/Legionary.jpg/200px-Legionary.jpg)#31 Legionary (Empires) Weighted Average: 61.0% / Unweighted Average: 60.1% / Median: 61.1% / Standard Deviation: 20.4%

Legionary is the 3rd best Empires card. It is one rank higher in the unweighted ranking.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: Qvist on January 18, 2017, 08:28:30 am
The Best (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/7/7d/Coin5.png/16px-Coin5.png) Cards - Part 8/10

https://youtu.be/qqJmVtT6bUo

(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/9/9a/Knights.jpg/200px-Knights.jpg)#30 ▼6 Knights (Dark Ages) Weighted Average: 61.2% ▼5.0pp / Unweighted Average: 59.6% / Median: 63.0% ▼1.6pp / Standard Deviation: 19.1%

The Knights have lost 6 ranks and 5pp. They are even one more rank lower in the unweighted ranking. They were voted first once.
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/3/35/Stables.jpg/200px-Stables.jpg)#29 ▲1 Stables (Hinterlands) Weighted Average: 62.5% ▼0.3pp / Unweighted Average: 61.8% / Median: 62.1% ▼3.5pp / Standard Deviation: 15.1%

Stables stayed pretty much where it was. It is one rank higher in the unweighted ranking and has a pretty low deviation.
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/2/20/Horn_of_Plenty.jpg/200px-Horn_of_Plenty.jpg)#28 =0 Horn of Plenty (Cornucopia) Weighted Average: 63.9% =0pp / Unweighted Average: 61.1% / Median: 65.2% ▲5.4pp / Standard Deviation: 22.1%

What are the chances? Horn of Plenty didn't change a bit, but its median is way higher. It is one rank lower in the unweighted ranking.
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/e/ed/Tactician.jpg/200px-Tactician.jpg)#27 ▼7 Tactician (Seaside) Weighted Average: 64.5% ▼5.2pp / Unweighted Average: 65.7% / Median: 69.5% ▼2.5pp / Standard Deviation: 20.8%

Tactician lost 7 ranks and over 5pp. It is 2 ranks higher in the unweighted ranking.
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/5/54/Haunted_Woods.jpg/200px-Haunted_Woods.jpg)#26 ▼7 Haunted Woods (Adventures) Weighted Average: 65.3% ▼5.4pp / Unweighted Average: 64.9% / Median: 68.4% ▼3.6pp / Standard Deviation: 20.1%

Haunted Woods lost just like Tactician 7 ranks and over 5pp as well.
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/9/91/Crown.jpg/200px-Crown.jpg)#25 Crown (Empires) Weighted Average: 66.5% / Unweighted Average: 68.5% / Median: 67.4% / Standard Deviation: 17.5%

Crown is the second best Empires card. It is 3 ranks higher in the unweighted ranking.
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/4/48/Wild_Hunt.jpg/200px-Wild_Hunt.jpg)#24 Wild Hunt (Empires) Weighted Average: 66.6% / Unweighted Average: 63.6% / Median: 70.5% / Standard Deviation: 23.5%

Wild Hunt is the best Empires card in this list, but it was close as it was voted only 0.08pp better than Crown. It is 3 ranks lower in the unweighted ranking.
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/0/0c/Laboratory.jpg/200px-Laboratory.jpg)#23 ▲4 Laboratory (Base) Weighted Average: 67.0% ▲3.5pp / Unweighted Average: 68.7% / Median: 71.6% ▲4.9pp / Standard Deviation: 16.7%

Laboratory is 4 ranks better than last year and 2 ranks higher in the unweighted ranking.
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/9/96/Haggler.jpg/200px-Haggler.jpg)#22 ▲2 Haggler (Hinterlands) Weighted Average: 67.6% ▲1.8pp / Unweighted Average: 67.2% / Median: 68.4% ▼0.8pp / Standard Deviation: 15.5%

Haggler is also slightly better than last year, 2 ranks and nearly 2pp. But in the unweighted ranking it's still those 2 ranks worse.
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/2/20/Apprentice.jpg/200px-Apprentice.jpg)#21 ▲2 Apprentice (Alchemy) Weighted Average: 70.0% ▲3.9pp / Unweighted Average: 68.3% / Median: 69.5% ▲1.2pp / Standard Deviation: 16.8%

Apprentice is just like Haggler 2 ranks higher, but with a way better average, nearly 4pp better, crossing the 70% mark. It's 2 ranks worse in the unweighted ranking as well.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: Qvist on January 18, 2017, 08:28:53 am
The Best (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/7/7d/Coin5.png/16px-Coin5.png) Cards - Part 9/10

https://youtu.be/SeWQRpLoH24

(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/a/a1/Count.jpg/200px-Count.jpg)#20 ▲5 Count (Dark Ages) Weighted Average: 70.1% ▲4.7pp / Unweighted Average: 70.7% / Median: 72.6% ▲7.2pp / Standard Deviation: 16.3%

After rising 11 ranks last year, Count is another 5 ranks better. It has a small lead over Apprentice of 0.12pp and was voted first once.
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/c/cf/Royal_Carriage.jpg/200px-Royal_Carriage.jpg)#19 ▲10 Royal Carriage (Adventures) Weighted Average: 70.6% ▲7.9pp / Unweighted Average: 71.0% / Median: 71.6% ▲7.0pp / Standard Deviation: 16.6%

Royal Carriage is a big winner, being 10 ranks and nearly 8pp better than last year.
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/2/29/Highway.jpg/200px-Highway.jpg)#18 ▲2 Highway (Hinterlands) Weighted Average: 74.2% ▲6.3pp / Unweighted Average: 75.4% / Median: 77.9% ▲3.8pp / Standard Deviation: 15.2%

Highway continues to go up and is higher than ever before. It climbed only 2 ranks this year, but over 6pp is still a lot. It was also voted first once. It is 3 ranks higher in the unweighted ranking.
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/7/77/Bridge_Troll.jpg/200px-Bridge_Troll.jpg)#17 ▲4 Bridge Troll (Adventures) Weighted Average: 75.4% ▲7.7pp / Unweighted Average: 74.0% / Median: 76.6% ▲4.1pp / Standard Deviation: 16.0%

Bridge Troll is 4 ranks better, but even more impressive is that it's nearly 8pp better. It is one rank lower in the unweighted ranking.
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/e/ed/Butcher.jpg/200px-Butcher.jpg)#16 ▼3 Butcher (Guilds) Weighted Average: 73.2% ▲3.7pp / Unweighted Average: 74.4% / Median: 79.0% ▲6.7pp / Standard Deviation: 17.9%

Butcher lost 3 ranks, but still has won quite a bit in its average.
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/2/28/Counterfeit.jpg/200px-Counterfeit.jpg)#15 ▼3 Counterfeit (Dark Ages) Weighted Average: 77.5% ▲1.7pp / Unweighted Average: 75.7% / Median: 82.1% ▲3.6pp / Standard Deviation: 20.3%

Just like Butcher, Counterfeit loses 3 ranks but goes up in its average. It is one rank higher in the unweighted ranking.
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/0/0a/Ghost_Ship.jpg/200px-Ghost_Ship.jpg)#14 ▲1 Ghost Ship (Seaside) Weighted Average: 77.9% ▲5.9pp / Unweighted Average: 74.3% / Median: 80.5% ▲1.2pp / Standard Deviation: 18.6%

Ghost Ship is only one rank better, but being nearly 6pp better is quite a lot. It is 3 ranks lower in the unweighted ranking though.
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/9/9a/Lost_City.jpg/200px-Lost_City.jpg)#13 ▲3 Lost City (Adventures) Weighted Average: 78.0% ▲7.2pp / Unweighted Average: 76.5% / Median: 81.1% ▲4.3pp / Standard Deviation: 17.5%

Lost City is 3 ranks and over 7pp better, not bad. It has a small lead over Ghost Ship of 0.06pp.
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/0/06/Margrave.jpg/200px-Margrave.jpg)#12 ▲2 Margrave (Hinterlands) Weighted Average: 78.9% ▲6.0pp / Unweighted Average: 79.7% / Median: 83.9% ▲7.1pp / Standard Deviation: 13.7%

Margrave is 2 ranks better and now just as high as 4 years ago, but now with way more cards. It has also a 6pp better average which is quite a bit. It was voted first once and is even one more rank higher in the unweighted ranking.
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/a/ab/Hunting_Party.jpg/200px-Hunting_Party.jpg)#11 ▼3 Hunting Party (Cornucopia) Weighted Average: 79.8% ▼2.8pp / Unweighted Average: 79.8% / Median: 84.2% ▼2.4pp / Standard Deviation: 16.4%

For the first time ever Hunting Party isn't in the Top 10 anymore. It is 3 ranks and nearly 3pp worse than last year. It is one rank higher in the unweighted ranking.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: Qvist on January 18, 2017, 08:29:01 am
Just to finish this off:

10. ▲1 Upgrade
9. ▲1 Minion
8. ▼1 Junk Dealer
7. ▲2 Torturer
6. ▼4 Rebuild
5. =0 Governor
4. ▲2 Witch
3. =0 Cultist
2. ▲2 Wharf
1. =0 Mountebank
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: AdrianHealey on January 18, 2017, 08:36:02 am
Well, I think contraband is way too low.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: ThetaSigma12 on January 18, 2017, 08:41:20 am
Well, I think contraband is way too low.
Yeah! For some reason it's been the dominant card in most of my SuffleIT games.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: AdrianHealey on January 18, 2017, 09:13:03 am
Well, I think contraband is way too low.
Yeah! For some reason it's been the dominant card in most of my SuffleIT games.

It's a great card in 'I want to buy everything' kingdoms, which, with the new edition cards and the addition of empires just happens more frequently.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: aku_chi on January 18, 2017, 09:27:43 am
I was looking through last year's $5 card list (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=14257.0).  As a community, I believe we really misranked a lot of the Adventures cards.

I expect Trade, Seaway, Treasure Trove, Relic, and Storyteller will all be significantly higher this year.
On the flip-side, I expect Swamp Hag and Haunted Woods to be significantly lower this year.

Outside of Adventures cards, I expect Outpost to be a big winner.  Either this year or next year - or both.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: werothegreat on January 18, 2017, 10:14:58 am
Yeah, I'm probably the outlying high vote for Mine.   :-[
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: Aleimon Thimble on January 18, 2017, 10:35:30 am
Yeah, I'm probably the outlying high vote for Mine.   :-[

It might be a bit too low (I had it at 68 out of 83, without Empires). Mine is pretty okay. The thing is though, $5 cards are almost all very powerful, so cards that are 'pretty okay' like Mine are still relatively bottom tier...

Good to see there's finally some redemption for Counting House :)

They should both be above Pillage though. Pillage is pretty useless.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: ipofanes on January 18, 2017, 10:36:08 am
Well, I think contraband is way too low.

Are there spammable events that would allow you to ignore the downside of Contraband?
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: Marcory on January 18, 2017, 10:46:40 am
Contraband's pretty good in Border Village games. If they ban Border Village, you just buy the $5 card you wanted anyway; if they don't, you buy Border Village instead.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: aku_chi on January 18, 2017, 10:49:01 am
Well, I think contraband is way too low.

Are there spammable events that would allow you to ignore the downside of Contraband?

Yes!  Dominate, Triumph, Annex, Ball, Pilgrimage, Alms, Summon, Seaway, Banquet, Windfall, Wedding, Conquest, Raid, Delve, Advance, and Quest are all ways to work around Contraband.  And Events can't be blacklisted with Contrband, so even if they don't gain cards, Events give the Contraband player more options.  Contraband is at its best in the presence of Events, alternative VP, and lots of useful cards.  Adventures, Empires, and the second edition cards help out Contraband a lot.  Contraband still isn't an amazing card, but it doesn't belong in the bottom 10 anymore, IMO.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: Chris is me on January 18, 2017, 11:07:30 am
There are so many more times I genuinely want Mine than I genuinely want Royal Seal. It's not great, but it's a usable card on boards where you can't get rid of your Copper and so you might as well have better stop cards. It really shines with various alternate Treasures you want for short periods of time like Potion or Loan or whatever.

Counting House has a high ceiling where it is sometimes the dominant card on the board despite being normally terrible, so that should be higher than it is.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: werothegreat on January 18, 2017, 11:21:32 am
Well, I think contraband is way too low.

Are there spammable events that would allow you to ignore the downside of Contraband?

Yes!  Dominate, Triumph, Annex, Ball, Pilgrimage, Alms, Summon, Seaway, Banquet, Windfall, Wedding, Conquest, Raid, Delve, Advance, and Quest are all ways to work around Contraband.  And Events can't be blacklisted with Contrband, so even if they don't gain cards, Events give the Contraband player more options.  Contraband is at its best in the presence of Events, alternative VP, and lots of useful cards.  Adventures, Empires, and the second edition cards help out Contraband a lot.  Contraband still isn't an amazing card, but it doesn't belong in the bottom 10 anymore, IMO.

I can't decide whether Black Market is good or bad with Contraband.  The Black Market gives more options, but your opponent can pick the card you want from the Black Market.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: ThetaSigma12 on January 18, 2017, 11:41:29 am
Well, I think contraband is way too low.
Yeah! For some reason it's been the dominant card in most of my SuffleIT games.

It's a great card in 'I want to buy everything' kingdoms, which, with the new edition cards and the addition of empires just happens more frequently.
I will now explain my joke to make it funnier: The bots only name Copper to Contraband.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: trivialknot on January 18, 2017, 11:51:43 am
Adventures cards I expect to go down:
Swamp Hag (#19 out of 83), Haunted Woods (#17)
I had Raid (#72) on this list too, but if it went down more than 1 rank, then we'd already have seen it in the bottom 10.

Adventures cards I expect to go up:
Bridge Troll (#21), Royal Carriage (#29), Treasure Trove (#59), Trade (#69), Relic (#55), Wine Merchant (#68), Seaway (#62)

Adventures cards I'm not sure about:
Artificer (#45), Storyteller (#47), Lost City (#16), Ball (#57), Giant (#51)
I think Storyteller should be higher, but from what I've seen, people haven't figured out how to play with it correctly.  So I'm interested to see where it goes.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: werothegreat on January 18, 2017, 11:59:11 am
Also, Counting House may also have gotten a bump from Royal Blacksmith.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: Erick648 on January 18, 2017, 06:31:03 pm
Also, Counting House may also have gotten a bump from Royal Blacksmith.
Was the Travelling Fair combo found before or after the last list?  Because that one strong combo could be enough to keep it out of the bottom 3 (since, hey, at least there's some times when you really want it).
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: Watno on January 18, 2017, 06:50:12 pm
Well, I think contraband is way too low.
Yeah! For some reason it's been the dominant card in most of my SuffleIT games.

It's a great card in 'I want to buy everything' kingdoms, which, with the new edition cards and the addition of empires just happens more frequently.
I will now explain my joke to make it funnier: The bots only name Copper to Contraband.

Not anymore. They use a way better method to decide what to Contraband now ;P
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: Aleimon Thimble on January 19, 2017, 05:21:25 am
Also, Counting House may also have gotten a bump from Royal Blacksmith.
Was the Travelling Fair combo found before or after the last list?  Because that one strong combo could be enough to keep it out of the bottom 3 (since, hey, at least there's some times when you really want it).

Yeah. Counting House/Travelling Fair is not just usable, it's borderline unstoppable. The presence of Travelling Fair suddenly makes Counting House around Cultist-level strong. And there are some other cases where CH is usable (anything that discards Coppers works), albeit nowhere near as insane.

I still think it's a bit too low, but I'm glad it left the bottom rank.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: AdrianHealey on January 19, 2017, 08:49:33 am
I recently won with Counting House - Worker's Village - Travelling Fair. That was fun.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: Qvist on January 21, 2017, 10:44:54 am
Part 2 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16854.msg671117#msg671117)
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: ThetaSigma12 on January 21, 2017, 11:45:58 am
Wow, is Treasury that bad? I thought it was still pretty good.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: McGarnacle on January 21, 2017, 11:47:31 am
Wow, is Treasury that bad? I thought it was still pretty good.

Treasury can be great early game. Works sort of like a Hireling giving +(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/f/f7/Coin1.png/16px-Coin1.png) instead of + 1 card when you topdeck it.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: AdrianHealey on January 21, 2017, 12:37:58 pm
Royal Seal and Contraband are better than some of these.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: werothegreat on January 21, 2017, 12:43:31 pm
Royal Seal and Contraband are better than some of these.

And Mine is better than both of those.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: AdrianHealey on January 21, 2017, 12:48:51 pm
Royal Seal and Contraband are better than some of these.

And Mine is better than both of those.

Sure, but too bland, haha. :D
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: Zent on January 21, 2017, 02:44:10 pm
I find Contraband to be pretty cool in games with Colonies - while some $5 cards are never cool, no matter what the game.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: Chris is me on January 21, 2017, 05:22:00 pm
Surprised how far Graverobber fell. It's a totally workable card, and has an important niche as a card that can Remodel into Province.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: Beyond Awesome on January 21, 2017, 07:15:36 pm
Graverobber is a decent engine card
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: Awaclus on January 21, 2017, 07:39:44 pm
Remodel into Province.

But in order to Graverob Remodel into Province, you also need 5 Highways in play.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: werothegreat on January 21, 2017, 10:07:26 pm
Remodel into Province.

But in order to Graverob Remodel into Province, you also need 5 Highways in play.

"Remodel" as a general term, just as "village" can be used as a general term, we've been over this Awaclus.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: Awaclus on January 21, 2017, 10:45:16 pm
Remodel into Province.

But in order to Graverob Remodel into Province, you also need 5 Highways in play.

"Remodel" as a general term, just as "village" can be used as a general term, we've been over this Awaclus.

My joke is definitely funnier now that you've explained it.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: smuggler on January 22, 2017, 07:38:35 pm
thx Qvist, for doing all that crazy amount of work
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: NoMoreFun on January 22, 2017, 11:14:15 pm
Harvest used to look like a respectable card before Legionary and Courtier came into existence and nobody was sure about the value of terminal Gold (in fact IIRC the prevailing opinion was "too good for $5, not good enough for $6").

Now it definitely looks like it should cost $4. In order for it to produce more than $2 before you start greening, it probably discarded a good card. Once you start greening, the cycling itself is a penalty. I expect it to linger at the bottom of the list for a long time now.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: NoMoreFun on January 22, 2017, 11:18:33 pm
Surprised how far Graverobber fell. It's a totally workable card, and has an important niche as a card that can Remodel into Province.

Agreed. It takes the best thing Expand can do (turn your $5 Actions into provinces late game), adds a bonus feature, and it costs $5 instead of $7.

$5 is a pretty competitive price point though.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: LastFootnote on January 22, 2017, 11:23:02 pm
Harvest used to look like a respectable card before Legionary and Courtier came into existence and nobody was sure about the value of terminal Gold (in fact IIRC the prevailing opinion was "too good for $5, not good enough for $6").

Now it definitely looks like it should cost $4. In order for it to produce more than $2 before you start greening, it probably discarded a good card. Once you start greening, the cycling itself is a penalty. I expect it to linger at the bottom of the list for a long time now.

Not to toot my own horn, but I always thought it terminal Gold was pretty clearly not too strong for $5. Although I would have pegged [+1 Buy; +$3] at a reasonable $5 card, and I think Legionary and Courtier are pretty clearly stronger than that.

Mandarin, man. That card should cost $2 without its on-gain ability. Even with that ability, it's pretty eyebrow-raising at $5.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: NoMoreFun on January 22, 2017, 11:30:53 pm
Harvest used to look like a respectable card before Legionary and Courtier came into existence and nobody was sure about the value of terminal Gold (in fact IIRC the prevailing opinion was "too good for $5, not good enough for $6").

Now it definitely looks like it should cost $4. In order for it to produce more than $2 before you start greening, it probably discarded a good card. Once you start greening, the cycling itself is a penalty. I expect it to linger at the bottom of the list for a long time now.

Not to toot my own horn, but I always thought it terminal Gold was pretty clearly not too strong for $5. Although I would have pegged [+1 Buy; +$3] at a reasonable $5 card, and I think Legionary and Courtier are pretty clearly stronger than that.

Mandarin, man. That card should cost $2 without its on-gain ability. Even with that ability, it's pretty eyebrow-raising at $5.

Agreed. There are a lot of games where I think the effect ($ and topdeck) would be useful, but I don't want to buy it because I hit $6 and could just buy a gold, or there are better $5s (especially if Count is around), or the on gain effect would be a penalty.

Hinterlands really needs a re-do, especially now that Events exist, and I don't think Mandarin would survive it.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: NoMoreFun on January 22, 2017, 11:35:14 pm
Treasury is pretty great with Empires. You can top deck Treasuries after buying Dominate, for one. I expect it to rise up the list again.

I don't see how it's so much worse than the other $5 peddlers, except Junk Dealer (which is quite different IMO)
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: Aleimon Thimble on January 23, 2017, 04:17:56 am
Treasury is pretty great with Empires. You can top deck Treasuries after buying Dominate, for one. I expect it to rise up the list again.

I don't see how it's so much worse than the other $5 peddlers, except Junk Dealer (which is quite different IMO)

Well, its power is clearly worse than the other $5 Peddlers if you ask me. I'd much rather have +Buy (Market), +2 Actions (Bazaar), cost reduction (Highway), trashing (Junk Dealer), the flexibility of coin tokens (Baker), or a cool discard-for-benefit option (Artificer) than simply the ability to topdeck in most cases. I guess Treasury is good in some rare cases, like money-oriented Colony boards, but it's clearly the weakest out of the $5 Peddlers. Except maybe Emporium, but all Empires cards are somewhere near the middle of the lists because there's not a lot of consensus yet.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: Jack Rudd on January 23, 2017, 05:18:02 am
Walled Village/Alchemist/Treasury are weird cards. They're clearly strictly better (ignoring cost and card-name effects) than Village/Laboratory/Peddler, but how much better?
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: Awaclus on January 23, 2017, 05:21:46 am
Walled Village/Alchemist/Treasury are weird cards. They're clearly strictly better (ignoring cost and card-name effects) than Village/Laboratory/Peddler, but how much better?

Not very much better, significantly better and much better, respectively.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: Aleimon Thimble on January 23, 2017, 05:40:53 am
Treasury is not that much better than Peddler, effect-wise. In cases where you draw your deck, the ability is useless. In cases where you don't, you generally start greening fairly early and the ability doesn't work. Sometimes you just want a $5 Peddler, but the special ability is rarely all that useful.

Alchemist/Laboratory is the biggest difference, because Labs are REALLY good if you can topdeck them.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: Awaclus on January 23, 2017, 06:49:10 am
Treasury is not that much better than Peddler, effect-wise. In cases where you draw your deck, the ability is useless. In cases where you don't, you generally start greening fairly early and the ability doesn't work. Sometimes you just want a $5 Peddler, but the special ability is rarely all that useful.

Alchemist/Laboratory is the biggest difference, because Labs are REALLY good if you can topdeck them.

The thing is, in cases where you don't draw your deck, you don't usually want Walled Village or Alchemist, but you definitely want Treasury as long as the flow of the game allows it. You can hit $5 pretty early in the game, and you'll have lots of time to benefit from the ability before you start to green, and you can use the ability during greening to spike for Provinces. Like, a Treasury opening is actually pretty decent, but a Baker opening is awful.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: Qvist on January 24, 2017, 09:28:25 am
Part 3 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16854.msg671118#msg671118)
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: Awaclus on January 24, 2017, 09:36:58 am
I think Ball is underrated now. Getting two $4s for $5, even with the -(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/f/f7/Coin1.png/16px-Coin1.png) token, is significantly better than Stonemason which is also a very strong card. Like, it's super better than Giant for sure.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: werothegreat on January 24, 2017, 10:03:06 am
Wow. I disagree with everything on part 3. Most of these should be higher, except Windfall, which is about right.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: McGarnacle on January 24, 2017, 10:22:40 am
Wow. I disagree with everything on part 3. Most of these should be higher, except Windfall, which is about right.

Me2
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: Qvist on January 24, 2017, 10:34:19 am
I reacted similarly, then I compared with my own list and was surprised to see that I ranked them about the same. There are just so many good cards in this list, that mediocre cards appear at the bottom of this list.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: Aleimon Thimble on January 24, 2017, 11:11:18 am
I have Market and Library a lot higher, like 20-30 places (even if you don't count Empires).

I do feel that old Base cards are getting more and more underrated because people don't find them interesting anymore. It happened to Workshop as well. Those cards are actually still pretty strong, guys!

(I can already predict I'm going to say the same thing about Laboratory and Festival)
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: AdrianHealey on January 24, 2017, 11:31:01 am
Market is a +Buy peddler. That's not that strong, is it?
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: Aleimon Thimble on January 24, 2017, 11:43:47 am
Market is a +Buy peddler. That's not that strong, is it?

It's pretty strong. +Buy is useful in a lot of cases, and it's important in almost every engine. When you're building an engine, you'd often get a Market over a lot of other +Buy cards, since it doesn't take up any space in your deck and gives some virtual money to boot. If Peddler is a strong $4 card, I'd say Market is a pretty strong $5 card - not top-tier, but somewhere in the middle of the (rather strong) $5 pack.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: McGarnacle on January 24, 2017, 11:45:25 am
Market is a +Buy peddler. That's not that strong, is it?

It's pretty strong. +Buy is useful in a lot of cases, and it's important in almost every engine. When you're building an engine, you'd often get a Market over a lot of other +Buy cards, since it doesn't take up any space in your deck and gives some virtual money to boot. If Peddler is a strong $4 card, I'd say Market is a pretty strong $5 card - not top-tier, but somewhere in the middle of the (rather strong) $5 pack.

I guess the main thing is Peddler variants are good to spam, but you don't need a bunch of +buys.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: Aleimon Thimble on January 24, 2017, 11:52:10 am
Market is a +Buy peddler. That's not that strong, is it?

It's pretty strong. +Buy is useful in a lot of cases, and it's important in almost every engine. When you're building an engine, you'd often get a Market over a lot of other +Buy cards, since it doesn't take up any space in your deck and gives some virtual money to boot. If Peddler is a strong $4 card, I'd say Market is a pretty strong $5 card - not top-tier, but somewhere in the middle of the (rather strong) $5 pack.

I guess the main thing is Peddler variants are good to spam, but you don't need a bunch of +buys.

Most of the time you don't, true. But you can still spam Markets as if they were $5 Peddlers. At the very least, the +Buys make Market a lot stronger than Treasury and Emporium, even if you don't need all of them.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: trivialknot on January 24, 2017, 11:53:16 am
"Windfall is way better than Treasure Map" (paraphrased from video)

I think Windfall really suffers from this comparison.  Windfall is only useful when you draw your deck.  Treasure map is useful when you draw your deck OR when you sift through your deck OR when you can rearrange your deck OR when you draw a significant fraction of your deck OR when you can get extra copies OR when you're just willing to chance it.  I think the additional flexibility of Treasure Map is more valuable than the (somewhat) cheaper cost of Windfall.  And Treasure Map is a bottom card, so Windfall should be too.

--

I think Emporium is underrated.  The Emporium pile nearly always runs out in my play group.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: Awaclus on January 24, 2017, 12:17:21 pm
The problem is that you don't want to spam $5 Peddlers. $5 is a lot of money to be spent on something that only gives you $1. You only want as many Markets as you want extra buys.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: markusin on January 24, 2017, 01:16:01 pm
The problem is that you don't want to spam $5 Peddlers. $5 is a lot of money to be spent on something that only gives you $1. You only want as many Markets as you want extra buys.

Yes, but that number of extra buys is often one or two, so getting a couple of Markets is quite common. It's no Grand Market though. With GM, every GM played in a turn can be converted into an Estate (or some other cheap 2-cost card) for 3-pile purposes.

Cartographer, nooooo! I suppose it does make sense though. It's not that Cartographer is bad, but the 5-cost cards tend to be higher impact on their own as opposed to being a support card. I still think Cartographer is a bit underrated here. Ball is probably underrated too.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: Beyond Awesome on January 24, 2017, 02:53:14 pm
Talk about a massive drop. 17 places is pretty steep. Adventures cards dropping a lot doesn't surprise me, but Cartographer is from Hinterlands. With that said, the card is decent, but I think is actually ranked correctly now.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: Aleimon Thimble on January 24, 2017, 06:04:06 pm
Maybe it's Sentry's fault? Cartographer does look rather weak in comparison, as it doesn't trash.

I also think it's ranked correctly now.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: Shvegait on January 24, 2017, 07:46:41 pm
Market is a +Buy peddler. That's not that strong, is it?

It's pretty strong. +Buy is useful in a lot of cases, and it's important in almost every engine. When you're building an engine, you'd often get a Market over a lot of other +Buy cards, since it doesn't take up any space in your deck and gives some virtual money to boot. If Peddler is a strong $4 card, I'd say Market is a pretty strong $5 card - not top-tier, but somewhere in the middle of the (rather strong) $5 pack.

So I actually had Market on exactly the rank it got on this list, but there's one thing I don't understand. What makes Market better on average than Seaway? If there is a cantrip that costs $4 or less that you want, which happens often, wouldn't you rather buy a Seaway? In the cases where you want a lot of +Buy, you can get it cheaper this way, since you only have to buy Seaway once, then you can buy (or gain) the cheaper card at its usual price. Of course you may then not get the +$1, but you get whatever the card provides, maybe something you need more, like +Actions or draw. Even if there's not a good target cantrip, if there's any $4 card you want to play every turn (and don't have all the copies of it you want yet), buying Seaway is basically a $1 Market Square that doesn't even cost a Buy (but competes with other $5s). Maybe I way overrated it, I had it around rank 40, but is it really that bad? And its combo with Highway is too good! (That says more about Highway, true, but still.)
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: Beyond Awesome on January 24, 2017, 07:50:18 pm
I agree. Seaway is better than Market on average
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: markusin on January 24, 2017, 08:11:46 pm
Market is a +Buy peddler. That's not that strong, is it?

It's pretty strong. +Buy is useful in a lot of cases, and it's important in almost every engine. When you're building an engine, you'd often get a Market over a lot of other +Buy cards, since it doesn't take up any space in your deck and gives some virtual money to boot. If Peddler is a strong $4 card, I'd say Market is a pretty strong $5 card - not top-tier, but somewhere in the middle of the (rather strong) $5 pack.

So I actually had Market on exactly the rank it got on this list, but there's one thing I don't understand. What makes Market better on average than Seaway? If there is a cantrip that costs $4 or less that you want, which happens often, wouldn't you rather buy a Seaway? In the cases where you want a lot of +Buy, you can get it cheaper this way, since you only have to buy Seaway once, then you can buy (or gain) the cheaper card at its usual price. Of course you may then not get the +$1, but you get whatever the card provides, maybe something you need more, like +Actions or draw. Even if there's not a good target cantrip, if there's any $4 card you want to play every turn (and don't have all the copies of it you want yet), buying Seaway is basically a $1 Market Square that doesn't even cost a Buy (but competes with other $5s). Maybe I way overrated it, I had it around rank 40, but is it really that bad? And its combo with Highway is too good! (That says more about Highway, true, but still.)

To be fair to Market, remove the +Buy on it and you got peddler, which is a strong 4-cost card (see Poacher). How many cantrip 4-cost cards are better than peddler and will show up with Seaway is the question.

I think I still ranked Seaway higher though.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: LibraryAdventurer on January 24, 2017, 09:39:52 pm
I had several of these cards higher, but IMO the most horribly underrated cards in part 3 are Ball and Library.
I had Ball at #46 and Library at #33 (maybe I'm biased, but I really don't think it's 37 places worth of bias).

I'm surprised we haven't seen Wine Merchant or Groundskeeper yet.

The rankings for the first two parts were very close to what I had, but here is where the major deviations start.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: Awaclus on January 25, 2017, 12:23:25 am
To be fair to Market, remove the +Buy on it and you got peddler, which is a strong 4-cost card (see Poacher). How many cantrip 4-cost cards are better than peddler and will show up with Seaway is the question.

The thing is, most of the cantrip 4-costs are something that you already have in your deck when you're buying Seaway, so you're getting a bunch of extra buys with it.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: NoMoreFun on January 25, 2017, 01:18:06 am
I suppose the +buy in Market makes it easier to buy multiple Markets (ie makes it more spammable even though the +buy isn't useful when spammed).
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: Awaclus on January 25, 2017, 01:25:58 am
I suppose the +buy in Market makes it easier to buy multiple Markets (ie makes it more spammable even though the +buy isn't useful when spammed).

Yeah, but if you already have a bunch of buys, you don't want to spend $5 on a Peddler.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: ipofanes on January 25, 2017, 03:05:31 am
"Windfall is way better than Treasure Map" (paraphrased from video)

I think Windfall really suffers from this comparison.  Windfall is only useful when you draw your deck.  Treasure map is useful when you draw your deck OR when you sift through your deck OR when you can rearrange your deck OR when you draw a significant fraction of your deck OR when you can get extra copies OR when you're just willing to chance it.  I think the additional flexibility of Treasure Map is more valuable than the (somewhat) cheaper cost of Windfall.  And Treasure Map is a bottom card, so Windfall should be too.

--

I think Emporium is underrated.  The Emporium pile nearly always runs out in my play group.

Thing about Events is their low opportunity cost. Two Treasure Maps in your deck waiting to be connected are stinkers. An Event never used is neutral (if not used by any player). An Action drawn dead is a burden.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: Qvist on January 28, 2017, 08:47:14 am
Part 4 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16854.msg671119#msg671119)
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: faust on January 28, 2017, 09:23:20 am
I think Wine Merchant went up too far. Trade, on the other hand, will probably rise even more in the next list. Outpost is better than where it is right now as well.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: allanfieldhouse on January 28, 2017, 11:09:06 am
I have to imagine Capital will rise in the future. I've seen so much love in the forums for the debt-cost card mechanic and how easy it makes it to buy cards. Well, Capital turns every card into a debt-cost card. And then the obvious combos with cards like Crown, Counterfeit, and Herbalist.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: Beyond Awesome on January 28, 2017, 06:03:20 pm
Trade is very underrated. Outpost remains underrated.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: LibraryAdventurer on January 28, 2017, 08:02:07 pm
My big disagreements:
I had...

Band of Misfits at 60

Wine Merchant at 81, maybe could be a little higher.

Vault at 44

Capital at 38.
I think Capital is way underestimated, Groundkeeper is way overestimated, and I don't understand why Vault went down as much as it did. I thought we would've seen Crown by now.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: Chris is me on January 29, 2017, 12:46:17 am
Plunderbis so much better than that. Really, those points get very powerful very quick, and over just a few turns losing that split gets to be a really big deal.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: markusin on January 29, 2017, 12:22:03 pm
My big disagreements:
I had...

...

Capital at 38.
I think Capital is way underestimated, Groundkeeper is way overestimated, and I don't understand why Vault went down as much as it did. I thought we would've seen Crown by now.

I think you might be right about Capital. My thinking with it is that the cards you buy on the turn you play Capital can help pay off the debt. It can also be pretty good payload on the final turn. Excess coins from Capital help pay the debt, so that's nice.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: trivialknot on January 29, 2017, 01:06:14 pm
My big disagreements:
I had...

...

Capital at 38.
I think Capital is way underestimated, Groundkeeper is way overestimated, and I don't understand why Vault went down as much as it did. I thought we would've seen Crown by now.

I think you might be right about Capital. My thinking with it is that the cards you buy on the turn you play Capital can help pay off the debt. It can also be pretty good payload on the final turn. Excess coins from Capital help pay the debt, so that's nice.
I mean, if Capital is only helping you buy cards 1 turn early, arguably another way to get all your cards a turn early is to have not spent a turn buying Capital.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: markusin on January 29, 2017, 11:20:45 pm
My big disagreements:
I had...

...

Capital at 38.
I think Capital is way underestimated, Groundkeeper is way overestimated, and I don't understand why Vault went down as much as it did. I thought we would've seen Crown by now.

I think you might be right about Capital. My thinking with it is that the cards you buy on the turn you play Capital can help pay off the debt. It can also be pretty good payload on the final turn. Excess coins from Capital help pay the debt, so that's nice.
I mean, if Capital is only helping you buy cards 1 turn early, arguably another way to get all your cards a turn early is to have not spent a turn buying Capital.

True. The thing is you can play Capital more than once per game, and each time you play it it's like gaining an expensive card a turn early.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: Holger on January 30, 2017, 06:05:29 am
My big disagreements:
I had...

...

Capital at 38.
I think Capital is way underestimated, Groundkeeper is way overestimated, and I don't understand why Vault went down as much as it did. I thought we would've seen Crown by now.

I think you might be right about Capital. My thinking with it is that the cards you buy on the turn you play Capital can help pay off the debt. It can also be pretty good payload on the final turn. Excess coins from Capital help pay the debt, so that's nice.
I mean, if Capital is only helping you buy cards 1 turn early, arguably another way to get all your cards a turn early is to have not spent a turn buying Capital.

True. The thing is you can play Capital more than once per game, and each time you play it it's like gaining an expensive card a turn early.

That doesn't change trivialknot's point: You could buy the second expensive card without Capital at the turn you buy the first expensive card with Capital, and so on. Actually, if you don't draw your deck each turn, buying Capital before lets you draw your gained cards later (by 1 shuffle minus 1 turn). It's similar to Royal Seal in this respect.
So the point of Capital is not to gain $5 cards earlier, but to gain $6+ cards you couldn't gain without it.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: DG on January 30, 2017, 08:54:04 am
True. The thing is you can play Capital more than once per game, and each time you play it it's like gaining an expensive card a turn early.

Unless you are paying off the debt of your previous capital turn.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: markusin on January 30, 2017, 09:16:14 am
My big disagreements:
I had...

...

Capital at 38.
I think Capital is way underestimated, Groundkeeper is way overestimated, and I don't understand why Vault went down as much as it did. I thought we would've seen Crown by now.

I think you might be right about Capital. My thinking with it is that the cards you buy on the turn you play Capital can help pay off the debt. It can also be pretty good payload on the final turn. Excess coins from Capital help pay the debt, so that's nice.
I mean, if Capital is only helping you buy cards 1 turn early, arguably another way to get all your cards a turn early is to have not spent a turn buying Capital.

True. The thing is you can play Capital more than once per game, and each time you play it it's like gaining an expensive card a turn early.

That doesn't change trivialknot's point: You could buy the second expensive card without Capital at the turn you buy the first expensive card with Capital, and so on. Actually, if you don't draw your deck each turn, buying Capital before lets you draw your gained cards later (by 1 shuffle minus 1 turn). It's similar to Royal Seal in this respect.
So the point of Capital is not to gain $5 cards earlier, but to gain $6+ cards you couldn't gain without it.

This makes sense. Now, when playing Capital you can gain two expensive cards in on turn, but one of them could have been gained when you gained Capital. After that though, you have the two expensive cards plus Capital, plus the debt. There can still be time for Capital to do good work though. Without buying Capital, you would have just have the two expensive cards.

Probably then, Capital is at its best when there is flexibility to eaither buy really good expensive card-shaped things or multiple smaller components if needed.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: werothegreat on January 30, 2017, 04:14:30 pm
Capital also has a number of ways to ignore the (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/8/81/Debt.png/18px-Debt.png), or at least produce more (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/6/6d/Coin.png/16px-Coin.png) than (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/8/81/Debt.png/18px-Debt.png).
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: aku_chi on January 30, 2017, 04:31:22 pm
Capital also has a number of ways to ignore the (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/8/81/Debt.png/18px-Debt.png), or at least produce more (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/6/6d/Coin.png/16px-Coin.png) than (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/8/81/Debt.png/18px-Debt.png).

Yes.  That number is 7:

Counterfeit (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Counterfeit)
Crown (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Crown)
Fortune (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Fortune)
Herbalist (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Herbalist)
Mandarin (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Mandarin) (situational)
Mint (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Mint) (even more situational)
Bonfire (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Bonfire) (extremely situational)

In a kingdom with Capital, there is a ~78% likelihood that none of those cards are present (and an ~87% chance that none of the top 4 synergies are present).  So, it is important to understand how good Capital is in kingdoms where none of those cards are present.  And I don't have a good feel for that.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: Shvegait on January 30, 2017, 07:39:50 pm
If one of the good combo cards is in the kingdom, Capital is going to be important. Now, assuming those cards aren't in the kingdom...

Capital is really good in Tournament games and Colony games. It could be essential on Dominate boards if you'd have trouble hitting $14 otherwise. Also it's crazy with overpay, for a big Masterpiece or possibly Doctor. Basically, whenever spikiness in your money distribution is what you want, Capital is good. If you're paying off at least 3 of the debt every time you play Capital, it's not doing much for you (with a few exceptions, like Storyteller maybe). In that case it's more like a Contraband with a different kind of penalty (-$3 in the future and/or now). You really want to go all in on the debt to get the most out of it. The price points of the key cards on the board will determine whether Capital is great or mediocre.

Also, any time the debt is not much of a drawback, Capital is helped. If on your next turn, you hit $7 and have 2 debt, and were going to buy a $5 anyway, the debt didn't hurt you. Whether you can count on that situation happening is another question. Or if next turn you're going to trash and pass with $2, you can just pay off debt. Works great with Mission, if you have at least some other reason for doing a Mission, since those coins were going to go to waste otherwise. In any case, the strength of Capital is roughly the same as the strength of the concept of "Debt" in the particular kingdom. I think it's underrated somewhat, because Debt is pretty strong.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: NoMoreFun on January 31, 2017, 07:16:00 am
Even a treasure that does nothing but give +buy is situationally very useful.

Capital is good if you really know what you want (ie you know when to buy the $11 Herbalist).
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: McGarnacle on January 31, 2017, 07:23:04 am
Even a treasure that does nothing but give +buy is situationally very useful.

Capital is good if you really know what you want (ie you know when to buy the $11 Herbalist).

Except you shouldn't need an $11 Herbalist, because Capital gives +buy.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: Chris is me on January 31, 2017, 08:19:34 am
Even a treasure that does nothing but give +buy is situationally very useful.

Capital is good if you really know what you want (ie you know when to buy the $11 Herbalist).

Except you shouldn't need an $11 Herbalist, because Capital gives +buy.

I think what he's saying is if you'd do anything for +Buy, Capital is at least a nonterminal +But that gives you a free Duchy on the last turn of the game.

Obviously if Herbalist is on the board you ideally want one of each.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: allanfieldhouse on January 31, 2017, 01:11:25 pm
In any case, the strength of Capital is roughly the same as the strength of the concept of "Debt" in the particular kingdom. I think it's underrated somewhat, because Debt is pretty strong.

This was my point in my original "I think Capital's rank will rise" post. With Capital, every card is a debt card.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: grrgrrgrr on February 04, 2017, 08:55:49 am
Capital also has a number of ways to ignore the (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/8/81/Debt.png/18px-Debt.png), or at least produce more (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/6/6d/Coin.png/16px-Coin.png) than (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/8/81/Debt.png/18px-Debt.png).

Yes.  That number is 7:

Counterfeit (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Counterfeit)
Crown (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Crown)
Fortune (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Fortune)
Herbalist (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Herbalist)
Mandarin (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Mandarin) (situational)
Mint (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Mint) (even more situational)
Bonfire (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Bonfire) (extremely situational)

In a kingdom with Capital, there is a ~78% likelihood that none of those cards are present (and an ~87% chance that none of the top 4 synergies are present).  So, it is important to understand how good Capital is in kingdoms where none of those cards are present.  And I don't have a good feel for that.

Mandarin+Capital sounds actually pretty ligit. If you manage to draw multiple Capitals, then you can buy one Mandarin to ensure you draw all those Capital again next turn, without getting Debt. If you manage to do that for a hand full of Capitals...
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: markusin on February 04, 2017, 11:33:40 am
Capital also has a number of ways to ignore the (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/8/81/Debt.png/18px-Debt.png), or at least produce more (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/6/6d/Coin.png/16px-Coin.png) than (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/8/81/Debt.png/18px-Debt.png).

Yes.  That number is 7:

Counterfeit (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Counterfeit)
Crown (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Crown)
Fortune (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Fortune)
Herbalist (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Herbalist)
Mandarin (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Mandarin) (situational)
Mint (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Mint) (even more situational)
Bonfire (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Bonfire) (extremely situational)

In a kingdom with Capital, there is a ~78% likelihood that none of those cards are present (and an ~87% chance that none of the top 4 synergies are present).  So, it is important to understand how good Capital is in kingdoms where none of those cards are present.  And I don't have a good feel for that.

Mandarin+Capital sounds actually pretty ligit. If you manage to draw multiple Capitals, then you can buy one Mandarin to ensure you draw all those Capital again next turn, without getting Debt. If you manage to do that for a hand full of Capitals...

Yeah with 2 Capitals plus a copper in hand, you can buy 1 Provinces + Mandarin each turn. With 3 Capitals, you can buy 1 Colony + Mandarin each turn. 4 Capitals lets you buy 2 Provinces + Mandarin each turn, and 3 Provinces on the last turn.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: Qvist on February 05, 2017, 12:23:07 pm
Sorry for the break. Part 5 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16854.msg671120#msg671120)
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: schadd on February 05, 2017, 12:49:04 pm
i've been thinking "this card is way better than that" for pretty much all of them since 73
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: werothegreat on February 05, 2017, 01:06:10 pm
So we still have yet to see Bustling Village, Archive, Crown, Legionary, Wild Hunt, and Triumph.  I'm betting Legionary and Triumph will be the top two of those, with one of them potentially in the top 10 overall.

Also, Relic has gone up by at least 11, and Storyteller has gone up by at least 3, while Distant Lands has at least not dropped at all.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: Beyond Awesome on February 05, 2017, 01:31:29 pm
Duke is overrated. Artificer and Charm are both better than Treasure Trove.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: McGarnacle on February 05, 2017, 02:06:32 pm
Duke is overrated. Artificer and Charm are both better than Treasure Trove.

Especially Artificer.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: Beyond Awesome on February 05, 2017, 04:15:21 pm
I also feel Groundskeeper is much better than people realize. If you get enough, you can let your opponent buy provinces and easily catch up on points.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: Omastar68 on February 05, 2017, 11:37:29 pm
I feel new to post here, but I think this is cool.

Most of these seem more or less intuitive to me. Harvest certainly seems like one of the most useless cards ever. Maybe it sees use w/ ruins...except that means a looter a.k.a. a better card. Something like Gardens maybe? idk, not a good card. Cache also seems really bad.

While it's pretty obvious Treasure Trove is way past Cache in usefulness, it's one of the cards that seems high to me. I guess you usually can trash Copper though, and it's still low-ish so it isn't really weird.

I like Graverobber a lot, and think it's better than Mystic. Some others don't seem very obvious, like Royal Seal, Plunder, Inn, Ball, Outpost, and Wine Merchant being low. But these kinds of things can never be perfect, they're just a guideline and completely board dependent. Still really cool how much work goes into these. Dominion is awesome.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: Kambork on February 06, 2017, 01:56:35 am
I also feel Groundskeeper is much better than people realize. If you click here (https://www.gabeba.com/testo-fuel-review-results) get enough testofuel, you can let your opponent buy provinces and easily catch up on points.

Great videos. There's just so many cards I wish I had.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: Beyond Awesome on February 06, 2017, 03:22:50 am
I feel new to post here, but I think this is cool.

Most of these seem more or less intuitive to me. Harvest certainly seems like one of the most useless cards ever. Maybe it sees use w/ ruins...except that means a looter a.k.a. a better card. Something like Gardens maybe? idk, not a good card. Cache also seems really bad.

While it's pretty obvious Treasure Trove is way past Cache in usefulness, it's one of the cards that seems high to me. I guess you usually can trash Copper though, and it's still low-ish so it isn't really weird.

I like Graverobber a lot, and think it's better than Mystic. Some others don't seem very obvious, like Royal Seal, Plunder, Inn, Ball, Outpost, and Wine Merchant being low. But these kinds of things can never be perfect, they're just a guideline and completely board dependent. Still really cool how much work goes into these. Dominion is awesome.

I agree with a lot of your points. Harvest is crap. Compare it to Poor House. They are very similar but PH cost $1. I agree about Wine Merchant being low as well. It's usually very good engine payload. Outpost is also good in a lot of engines.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: faust on February 06, 2017, 08:12:46 am
I feel new to post here, but I think this is cool.

Most of these seem more or less intuitive to me. Harvest certainly seems like one of the most useless cards ever. Maybe it sees use w/ ruins...except that means a looter a.k.a. a better card. Something like Gardens maybe? idk, not a good card. Cache also seems really bad.

While it's pretty obvious Treasure Trove is way past Cache in usefulness, it's one of the cards that seems high to me. I guess you usually can trash Copper though, and it's still low-ish so it isn't really weird.

I like Graverobber a lot, and think it's better than Mystic. Some others don't seem very obvious, like Royal Seal, Plunder, Inn, Ball, Outpost, and Wine Merchant being low. But these kinds of things can never be perfect, they're just a guideline and completely board dependent. Still really cool how much work goes into these. Dominion is awesome.

I agree with a lot of your points. Harvest is crap. Compare it to Poor House. They are very similar but PH cost $1. I agree about Wine Merchant being low as well. It's usually very good engine payload. Outpost is also good in a lot of engines.

Wine Merchant is mediocre engine payload at best. You need 3 before it even gets better than Courtier revealing a 2-type, and Courtier is way more flexible. It's okay if there's no other +buy and for early spikes, but that's about it.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: brokoli on February 07, 2017, 03:58:09 am
I would rank Festival, Duke and Treasure Trove way higher.
Winemerchant and council room lower (cr better than festival really ? :o ).
I think the new cards Charm and Forum are overrated. They are both useful but are rarely the $5 that you focus on.

I still have absolutely no understanding of artificer, it seems so strong on paper but i never had a game where it was really useful.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: Aleimon Thimble on February 07, 2017, 04:24:26 am
Council Room above Festival also seems really weird to me. Maybe it's because of the Making Fun campaigns, where Council Room-BM was often the solution?
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: Chris is me on February 07, 2017, 08:08:25 am
Council Room above Festival also seems really weird to me. Maybe it's because of the Making Fun campaigns, where Council Room-BM was often the solution?

Non-drawing villages that compete for $5s are a tough sell. Cards that draw a lot and give you an extra buy are pretty dope. That extra card penalty is rough but I definitely think CR is the difference maker more than Festival.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: weety4 on February 08, 2017, 12:02:56 pm
As long as terminal draw is on the board Festival is good.
Council Room on the other hand wants discard attacks. Otherwise it is like playing a Lab for your opponents and something which is a bit better than Hunting Grounds for yourself. So the card is more situational than Festival and I think that one aspect of the strength of cards is their versatility.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: Awaclus on February 08, 2017, 12:23:22 pm
Building engines with Festival for splitting is almost as awkward as building engines with Ranger for draw. Council Room, on the other hand, makes it super easy to build engines.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: LastFootnote on February 08, 2017, 12:34:22 pm
As long as terminal draw is on the board Festival is good.

I disagree. Without trashing, Festival just isn't reliable enough. If there's no trashing or weak trashing, I will prefer any drawing village over Festival. I might still get a Festival if it's the only +Buy, but I'm not going to use it as my main village.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: weety4 on February 09, 2017, 02:58:49 am
As long as terminal draw is on the board Festival is good.

I disagree. Without trashing, Festival just isn't reliable enough. If there's no trashing or weak trashing, I will prefer any drawing village over Festival. I might still get a Festival if it's the only +Buy, but I'm not going to use it as my main village.
Festival and Smithy is equivalent to a Lab, a Market and a Peddler.
Village and Smithy is equivalent to two Labs.

So the former is better unless the average card in your deck provides more than "+2 Coins, +1 Buy". Which is unlikely if there is no trashing.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: Aleimon Thimble on February 09, 2017, 03:52:50 am
But most boards have at least some kind of trasher, and the ones that don't aren't even engine boards half of the time.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: brokoli on February 09, 2017, 04:20:58 am
Building engines with Festival for splitting is almost as awkward as building engines with Ranger for draw. Council Room, on the other hand, makes it super easy to build engines.
Makes engines super easy for the opponent too. Ok I know this is obvious.
Still for me that benefit for the opponent is so huge for me. Even with discard attacks, you are still giving to your opponent some kind of sifting. So overall that drawback of cr is a bigger weakness than the lack of +cards in festival, which is quite important too but can be mitigatened by some cute combos (menagerie-watchtower), non-terminal draw (advisor, lab, opponent's council room lol), or sifters / deck inspection. Really all you need on a village is +2 actions, the usual +1 card is just a a bonus that makes things easier.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: drsteelhammer on February 09, 2017, 05:18:39 am
Building engines with Festival for splitting is almost as awkward as building engines with Ranger for draw. Council Room, on the other hand, makes it super easy to build engines.
Makes engines super easy for the opponent too. Ok I know this is obvious.
Still for me that benefit for the opponent is so huge for me. Even with discard attacks, you are still giving to your opponent some kind of sifting. So overall that drawback of cr is a bigger weakness than the lack of +cards in festival, which is quite important too but can be mitigatened by some cute combos (menagerie-watchtower), non-terminal draw (advisor, lab, opponent's council room lol), or sifters / deck inspection. Really all you need on a village is +2 actions, the usual +1 card is just a a bonus that makes things easier.

Let's put this into perspective: One Council Room equals one Lab for your opponent, increasing your handsize by three, while also providing a buy. So you can get three times the draw for one action, with another bonus on top.

Compare this to Festival as your village: Say you have 5 of them in your deck, which means you draw 5 fewer cards than with a regular village, which costs 2 less. This means you need 2,5 Smithies more to draw your deck than usual, which means you can play about two instead of four payload cards. If the payload card isn't Woodcutter, which it can't be anymore, this is clearly worse.

This covers only the best case scenario, but this is also so much more prone to dudding. Shoutout to @settingfarming who has a beta simulator which I think can test this:

5Villages + 3 Smithies (+6cards)
and 5 Festivals + 5 Smithies (+6cards), both with 4, 7 and 10 stopcards.

My most conservative estimate would be that the latter duds 50% more, and twice as much with more junk around.

Overall, it is amusing to see that you would rather give up drawing 5 cards than giving your opponent one despite its benefits.

Market is also ridiculously high but I don't feel ranting about that one aswell since other did a good job with that already. Let me just add that nonterminal, drawing +buy wasn't good enough to make a mediocre $3 cost so it needed another effect which is now its main purpose.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: Awaclus on February 09, 2017, 06:11:06 am
Building engines with Festival for splitting is almost as awkward as building engines with Ranger for draw. Council Room, on the other hand, makes it super easy to build engines.
Makes engines super easy for the opponent too. Ok I know this is obvious.
Still for me that benefit for the opponent is so huge for me. Even with discard attacks, you are still giving to your opponent some kind of sifting. So overall that drawback of cr is a bigger weakness than the lack of +cards in festival, which is quite important too but can be mitigatened by some cute combos (menagerie-watchtower), non-terminal draw (advisor, lab, opponent's council room lol), or sifters / deck inspection. Really all you need on a village is +2 actions, the usual +1 card is just a a bonus that makes things easier.

The usual +1 card is not just a bonus, it's a free Lab. Free Labs are pretty good for engines.

Festival and Smithy is equivalent to a Lab, a Market and a Peddler.
Village and Smithy is equivalent to two Labs.

So the former is better unless the average card in your deck provides more than "+2 Coins, +1 Buy". Which is unlikely if there is no trashing.

Two Labs are super better than a Lab, a Market and a Peddler. It doesn't matter what the average card in your deck provides, what matters is whether or not you can draw your entire deck every turn and whether or not that entire deck lets you do something useful once you've drawn it.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: weety4 on February 09, 2017, 08:23:23 am
Two Labs are super better than a Lab, a Market and a Peddler.
Lab might be sometimes better than GM but on average it is clearly worse so the claim that Lab is "super better" than Grand Market is about as truthful as the world is flat.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: Aleimon Thimble on February 09, 2017, 08:25:18 am
There are very few cases where I would voluntarily buy Lab over Grand Market if I had $6 and 1 buy (and no Copper in play), just as there are very few cases where I would buy Village over Festival if I had $5 and 1 buy.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: ipofanes on February 09, 2017, 08:37:01 am
Two Labs are super better than a Lab, a Market and a Peddler.
Lab might be sometimes better than GM but on average it is clearly worse so the claim that Lab is "super better" than Grand Market is about as truthful as the world is flat.

He said "two labs".
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: Awaclus on February 09, 2017, 08:40:02 am
There are very few cases where I would voluntarily buy Lab over Grand Market if I had $6 and 1 buy (and no Copper in play), just as there are very few cases where I would buy Village over Festival if I had $5 and 1 buy.

That's because the opportunity cost of skipping a GM buy is pretty big and you want the GMs in your deck eventually. If GM was also a $5 card, you would buy Labs over GM until you're drawing your deck.

You actually do the latter scenario more often than you would think, through buying Villages when you don't hit $5, terminal draw when you do, and not buying Festivals at all until you're drawing your deck.

Two Labs are super better than a Lab, a Market and a Peddler.
Lab might be sometimes better than GM but on average it is clearly worse so the claim that Lab is "super better" than Grand Market is about as truthful as the world is flat.


GM might be sometimes better than Lab but on average it is clearly worse so the claim that Grand Market is "super better" than Lab is about as truthful as the world is flat.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: weety4 on February 09, 2017, 08:50:10 am
GM might be sometimes better than Lab but on average it is clearly worse so the claim that Grand Market is "super better" than Lab is about as truthful as the world is flat.
Sure, that's why Lab costs more than Lab and has a no-Copper buy restriction. Oh no wait, it is the other way around.

Man, that Donald X. must be pretty bad at that game designing thing if he prices his cards so badly. Or some random guy on the internet is wrong. I wonder what's more likely.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: Awaclus on February 09, 2017, 08:52:03 am
GM might be sometimes better than Lab but on average it is clearly worse so the claim that Grand Market is "super better" than Lab is about as truthful as the world is flat.
Sure, that's why Lab costs more than Lab and has a no-Copper buy restriction. Oh no wait, it is the other way around.

Man, that Donald X. must be pretty bad at that game designing thing if he prices his cards so badly. Or some random guy on the internet is wrong. I wonder what's more likely.

Yeah and Chapel probably sucks too because it only costs $2, right?
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: weety4 on February 09, 2017, 09:02:09 am
GM might be sometimes better than Lab but on average it is clearly worse so the claim that Grand Market is "super better" than Lab is about as truthful as the world is flat.
Sure, that's why Lab costs more than Lab and has a no-Copper buy restriction. Oh no wait, it is the other way around.

Man, that Donald X. must be pretty bad at that game designing thing if he prices his cards so badly. Or some random guy on the internet is wrong. I wonder what's more likely.

Yeah and Chapel probably sucks too because it only costs $2, right?
Chapel is an exception. As you rarely want more than one Chapel it is not game breaking that it is very powerful.
In virtually all other cases price and power are highly correlated, especially in the case of cantrips of which you want severals. if this were not the case the game would be broken.

There is definitely no card in Dominion which costs 5 and is "super better" than a card which is priced at 6 (and would be priced at 7 or 8 without the copper clause).
 
That Grand Market is generally better than Lab is an obvious fact. At least this preposterous discussions shows that mirror universes in which fair is foul and foul is fair do exist and that communication between our world and topsy-turvy land is possible.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: Aleimon Thimble on February 09, 2017, 09:09:31 am
At least this preposterous discussions shows that mirror universes in which fair is foul and foul is fair do exist and that communication between our world and topsy-turvy land is possible.

Awaclus is pretty much the Donald Trump of Dominion.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: Chris is me on February 09, 2017, 09:11:22 am
GM might be sometimes better than Lab but on average it is clearly worse so the claim that Grand Market is "super better" than Lab is about as truthful as the world is flat.
Sure, that's why Lab costs more than Lab and has a no-Copper buy restriction. Oh no wait, it is the other way around.

Man, that Donald X. must be pretty bad at that game designing thing if he prices his cards so badly. Or some random guy on the internet is wrong. I wonder what's more likely.

Yeah and Chapel probably sucks too because it only costs $2, right?
Chapel is an exception. In virtually all other cases price and power are highly correlated. There is definitely no card in Dominion which costs 5 and is "super better" than a card which is priced at 6 (and would be priced at 7 or 8 without the copper clause). There are of course situations in which a Lab is better than Expand or Prince but Lab is in general worse than either of those cards.

That Grand Market is generally better than Lab is an obvious fact. At least this preposterous discussions shows that mirror universes in which fair is foul and foul is fair do exist and that communication between our world and topsy-turvy land is possible.

Cost not correlating with power isn't just "well chapel is an exception". Cost controls a few things: 1. perception of power 2. accessibility.

The classic example isn't Chapel, but Courtyard. Courtyard is a stronger BM card than Smithy, by quite a lot, but costs $2. Why? It's simple - BM strategies don't have extra buys (usually). So any Action you're buying costs "all the money in your hand", so Courtyard costing $2 doesn't make it significantly more accessible. But in engines with many gains, Courtyard isn't significantly better than even Moat, so being able to buy multiple Courtyard for cheap isn't a big deal.

We can also consider 3 cost cards, where the top 5 3 costs are certainly better than the vast majority of 4's, and the primary difference in costing 3 is that these cards can be opened with twice.

Anyhow, you have an interesting definition of "obvious" and "fact" here. It's kind of douchey to conflate your own opinion with objective truth, tristan. I think Lab is ultimately "better" in the sense that is more often a more important card. Why? Because while GM provides a lot of valuable resources, the only *scarce* resource it provides is +Buy. You can get coins from any number of sources, and while GM is a strong source of coin, it is somewhat frequently not fast enough to justify going out of your way for it. Lab is one of, what, maybe five nonterminal draw cards in the game? This is huge! Even terminal draw is a scarce resource, and Lab is one of the very, very few cards that gives you a solid chance of building an engine without any real +Action. That's amazing.

Regardless, all of this is much different than the original question, which is whether or not Festival is as good of a Village as Village. It's not. It's because it costs too much and it doesn't draw. That extra card is really important - finding another Village or Smithy in a 4 card search area is much easier than a 3 card search area! If your payload would otherwise be Silver, and you don't have other 5s to buy, then of course get Festival, duh, but it's really a Worker's Village that always draws Silver - not ideal for a lot of decks, while pretty decent in some.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: weety4 on February 09, 2017, 09:21:49 am
Anyhow, you have an interesting definition of "obvious" and "fact" here. It's kind of douchey to conflate your own opinion with objective truth, tristan.
You can claim that I am another poster if you wish but I am new here. Given that you obviously hold some sort of grudge against me or the guy you confuse me with it is not surprising that it is not possible to rationally discuss Dominion with you. Not that such a discussion is possible with flat-eathers in the first place.

Whether you like it or not, it is a fact that Grand Market is generally better than Lab. If it isn't, feel free to explain why the game designer made GMs much harder to get than Labs.
For the same reason Festival is better than Village; combined with a Smithy the combo is 2 Labs vs. Lab+GM. Unsurprisingly
the average card in a deck is worse than Charm.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: Awaclus on February 09, 2017, 09:27:42 am
You can claim that I am another poster if you wish but I am new here.

And yet your opinion is apparently more valid than the opinion of those who are not new here.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: weety4 on February 09, 2017, 09:33:09 am
You can claim that I am another poster if you wish but I am new here.

And yet your opinion is apparently more valid than the opinion of those who are not new here.
A weird variation of argument from authority: "I have been here longer than you so I am smarter". Shall we call it argument from tradition? You soldier, police officer or just ordinary reactionary dude?

At least this nonsense is moderately entertaining.  ;D
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: Awaclus on February 09, 2017, 09:48:55 am
You can claim that I am another poster if you wish but I am new here.

And yet your opinion is apparently more valid than the opinion of those who are not new here.
A weird variation of argument from authority: "I have been here longer than you so I am smarter". Shall we call it argument from tradition? You soldier, police officer or just ordinary reactionary dude?

At least this nonsense is moderately entertaining.  ;D

I'm not currently working as a soldier, but technically I am one.

Anyway, argument from authority is not a logical fallacy when we're talking about people who actually are experts on the field in question.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: weety4 on February 09, 2017, 09:51:49 am
Anyway, argument from authority is not a logical fallacy when we're talking about people who actually are experts on the field in question.
Like you. As opposed to the game designer who priced the cards totally horribly. Which is why the game is broken and why you are so interested in it.

Man, at least arguing like in topsy-turvy land is fun.  8)
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: Miked on February 09, 2017, 10:04:51 am
Grand Market is stronger than Lab in the early game, when your average card is still quite weak. As the game progresses the extra card from Lab will gain more and more value as your deck improves. The power level of different effects change throughout the different stages of a game so the argument that Card A is better than Card B because it costs more doesn't really work.

Purely in terms of action splitting Festival is a $5 Necropolis, which isn't very good and is obviously much worse than a regular Village. In a real game if Festival is useful then Village will be too, if Village is useful then the +buy from Festival needs to be important otherwise it's not going to add much as there's always ways to add money to a deck.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: ipofanes on February 09, 2017, 10:08:45 am
Cost not correlating with power isn't just "well chapel is an exception". Cost controls a few things: 1. perception of power 2. accessibility.

The classic example isn't Chapel, but Courtyard. [...]

We can also consider 3 cost cards, where the top 5 3 costs are certainly better than the vast majority of 4's, and the primary difference in costing 3 is that these cards can be opened with twice.

Anyhow, you have an interesting definition of "obvious" and "fact" here. It's kind of douchey to conflate your own opinion with objective truth, tristan. I think Lab is ultimately "better" in the sense that is more often a more important card. Why? Because while GM provides a lot of valuable resources, the only *scarce* resource it provides is +Buy. You can get coins from any number of sources, and while GM is a strong source of coin, it is somewhat frequently not fast enough to justify going out of your way for it. Lab is one of, what, maybe five nonterminal draw cards in the game? This is huge! Even terminal draw is a scarce resource, and Lab is one of the very, very few cards that gives you a solid chance of building an engine without any real +Action. That's amazing.

While you are making some good, even great points why cost and power are not strictly positively associated for card costs of $1 to $4, it would be more of a challenge to argue in a similar way for $5+ cards. Adventurer is worse than Lab but he has been phased out for precisely that reason. An argument may be made for Forge being forced out of the opening but then I'd prefer Chapel over Forge in the opening enyways. Also, I am reading your argument about Lab vs GM in the way that you would buy GM over Lab in most cases if given the chance to get either, while there sometimes may be reasons (poor trashing, no attractive cheap cards worth a +Buy) to prefer Lab over GM. I'd tend to think that these occasions are few and far between.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: ipofanes on February 09, 2017, 10:10:56 am
Grand Market is stronger than Lab in the early game, when your average card is still quite weak. As the game progresses the extra card from Lab will gain more and more value as your deck improves. The power level of different effects change throughout the different stages of a game so the argument that Card A is better than Card B because it costs more doesn't really work.

Grand Market is also of more use in the late (engine) game when you draw your deck anyway, and Lab would just get you extra cards from an empty deck.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: faust on February 09, 2017, 10:26:40 am
At least this preposterous discussions shows that mirror universes in which fair is foul and foul is fair do exist and that communication between our world and topsy-turvy land is possible.

Awaclus is pretty much the Donald Trump of Dominion.
Was the point of this post something else than to insult a forum member that sometimes voices opinions that differ from your own?
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: Miked on February 09, 2017, 10:28:21 am
Grand Market is stronger than Lab in the early game, when your average card is still quite weak. As the game progresses the extra card from Lab will gain more and more value as your deck improves. The power level of different effects change throughout the different stages of a game so the argument that Card A is better than Card B because it costs more doesn't really work.

Grand Market is also of more use in the late (engine) game when you draw your deck anyway, and Lab would just get you extra cards from an empty deck.
Not necessarily. Overdrawing allows you to do a number of things such as adding green and retaining the ability to draw everything or using gainers to gain and play cards on the same turn, both of which can be much more important than the money and buy from Grand Market.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: ThetaSigma12 on February 09, 2017, 10:29:10 am
Sorry, what were we arguing about? I seem to have lost the thread of the debate.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: faust on February 09, 2017, 10:30:29 am
There is definitely no card in Dominion which costs 5 and is "super better" than a card which is priced at 6.
Because we all know that Mountebank is worse than Gold.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: ipofanes on February 09, 2017, 10:51:51 am
There is definitely no card in Dominion which costs 5 and is "super better" than a card which is priced at 6.
Because we all know that Mountebank is worse than Gold.
It's not "super better". It's not ignorable but I won't like to have more than two in most decks while I gladly would buy a fourth Gold for $6.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: faust on February 09, 2017, 10:57:29 am
There is definitely no card in Dominion which costs 5 and is "super better" than a card which is priced at 6.
Because we all know that Mountebank is worse than Gold.
It's not "super better". It's not ignorable but I won't like to have more than two in most decks while I gladly would buy a fourth Gold for $6.
I would also add 9 Pearl Divers to my deck but not usually more than 1 Chapel. Chapel is still super better than Pearl Diver.

EDIT: To put it another way: If you aren't allowed to buy Mountebank and I'm not allowed to buy Gold, I will win 90-93% of the games including those cards. Thus, Mountebank is super better than Gold.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: werothegreat on February 09, 2017, 11:01:55 am
So many notifications on this thread.

Oh, Qvist hasn't posted the next part of the list?

Never mind, back to my "work" day.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: GendoIkari on February 09, 2017, 11:06:05 am
As long as terminal draw is on the board Festival is good.

I disagree. Without trashing, Festival just isn't reliable enough. If there's no trashing or weak trashing, I will prefer any drawing village over Festival. I might still get a Festival if it's the only +Buy, but I'm not going to use it as my main village.
Festival and Smithy is equivalent to a Lab, a Market and a Peddler.
Village and Smithy is equivalent to two Labs.

So the former is better unless the average card in your deck provides more than "+2 Coins, +1 Buy". Which is unlikely if there is no trashing.

Giving that the former is better for a moment, the point is that the former is harder to get. You need to have both Festival and Smithy within 5 cards of each other. Whereas Village and Smithy need to be within 6 cards of each other. Or more when there's more villages. A hand of 3 Villages gives you 3 changes to find that Smithy in your deck. 3 Festivals makes it much less likely you'll ever get that Smithy.

And on top of that, you're comparing a (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/7/7d/Coin5.png/16px-Coin5.png) card to a (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/3/32/Coin3.png/16px-Coin3.png) card.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: Aleimon Thimble on February 09, 2017, 11:09:17 am
At least this preposterous discussions shows that mirror universes in which fair is foul and foul is fair do exist and that communication between our world and topsy-turvy land is possible.

Awaclus is pretty much the Donald Trump of Dominion.
Was the point of this post something else than to insult a forum member that sometimes voices opinions that differ from your own?

I don't care if people disagree with me; I might actually be wrong. It happens. Maybe Grand Market sucks and Laboratory is the best card in the universe. Whatever.

What I care about is the tone of the discussion, and somehow it always turns highly annoying and/or nasty with Awaclus in it.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: Awaclus on February 09, 2017, 11:13:44 am
Anyway, argument from authority is not a logical fallacy when we're talking about people who actually are experts on the field in question.
Like you. As opposed to the game designer who priced the cards totally horribly. Which is why the game is broken and why you are so interested in it.

Man, at least arguing like in topsy-turvy land is fun.  8)

It's funny that you accuse me of a logical fallacy and now you're the one actually using that very fallacy in an actually fallacious way. Donald X. is an expert at game design, not necessarily at playing.

Grand Market is stronger than Lab in the early game, when your average card is still quite weak. As the game progresses the extra card from Lab will gain more and more value as your deck improves. The power level of different effects change throughout the different stages of a game so the argument that Card A is better than Card B because it costs more doesn't really work.

That's what you might think, but the exact opposite is true. Lab is stronger than Grand Market in the early game, when you're not drawing your deck yet. A deck that draws itself and produces $5 is a way stronger deck than a deck that produces $8 on average, but takes 3 turns to draw itself, because of how much faster it is to add new components to the former deck. That's why you always build your engine first and then add payload. On the other hand, when you're already drawing your deck, it doesn't help much to add more cards that draw, because there's nothing more to draw, and that's when you want payload, such as Grand Market.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: faust on February 09, 2017, 11:19:32 am
At least this preposterous discussions shows that mirror universes in which fair is foul and foul is fair do exist and that communication between our world and topsy-turvy land is possible.

Awaclus is pretty much the Donald Trump of Dominion.
Was the point of this post something else than to insult a forum member that sometimes voices opinions that differ from your own?

I don't care if people disagree with me; I might actually be wrong. It happens. Maybe Grand Market sucks and Laboratory is the best card in the universe. Whatever.

What I care about is the tone of the discussion, and somehow it always turns highly annoying and/or nasty with Awaclus in it.
And so you thought "I will work on making the tone less annoying and/or nasty... what could I possibly write to achieve that... oh right, I know: 'Awaclus is pretty much the Donald Trump of Dominion.'!"
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: LaLight on February 09, 2017, 11:23:28 am
Come on guys, stop it please
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: allanfieldhouse on February 09, 2017, 11:27:37 am
Ok...so I'm not going to touch the GM & Lab aspect of this debate. I'm going to stick to the Village + Smithy + Festival aspect (and hope that Qvist posts new rankings soon and we can just move on to arguing about those).

So yeah on average, overall, as a Dominion card, Festival is better than Village (it would be broken at $3). But there are tons of situations where you'd rather have a Village than a Festival. One of those situations is when you want to build an engine incorporating Smithy as the draw source. In general, the strategy for a kingdom with those 3 cards is that you're going to want some Villages and Smithies to draw your deck.

Once you start lining up Villages and Smithies, you are going to want a Festival or two. The main reason you want a Festival at that point is the fact that it gives you a +Buy along with other benefits. The buy allows you to buy a Village AND a Smithy per turn. The +2 Actions is good because at this point it gives you extra reliability if you don't draw a Village (and you can start to prioritize extra Smithies). And finally, a free $2 is great because it helps you utilize the +Buy.

So the core strategy is Village + Smithy to draw your deck every turn. Festival helps supplement that strategy because all of its pieces are useful additions to a Village + Smithy deck. You're just never* going to want to run a Festival + Smithy deck when Village is also available.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: Miked on February 09, 2017, 12:01:16 pm
Grand Market is stronger than Lab in the early game, when your average card is still quite weak. As the game progresses the extra card from Lab will gain more and more value as your deck improves. The power level of different effects change throughout the different stages of a game so the argument that Card A is better than Card B because it costs more doesn't really work.

That's what you might think, but the exact opposite is true. Lab is stronger than Grand Market in the early game, when you're not drawing your deck yet. A deck that draws itself and produces $5 is a way stronger deck than a deck that produces $8 on average, but takes 3 turns to draw itself, because of how much faster it is to add new components to the former deck. That's why you always build your engine first and then add payload. On the other hand, when you're already drawing your deck, it doesn't help much to add more cards that draw, because there's nothing more to draw, and that's when you want payload, such as Grand Market.
What you're calling the early game here sounds like what I would call the mid game. No way I'm getting to $8 average or drawing my deck in the early game. Given the opportunity to open with either GM or Lab I would open GM on the vast majority of boards before moving onto the Labs. You need to add some economy first before you can afford those Labs right?
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: Awaclus on February 09, 2017, 12:31:06 pm
Grand Market is stronger than Lab in the early game, when your average card is still quite weak. As the game progresses the extra card from Lab will gain more and more value as your deck improves. The power level of different effects change throughout the different stages of a game so the argument that Card A is better than Card B because it costs more doesn't really work.

That's what you might think, but the exact opposite is true. Lab is stronger than Grand Market in the early game, when you're not drawing your deck yet. A deck that draws itself and produces $5 is a way stronger deck than a deck that produces $8 on average, but takes 3 turns to draw itself, because of how much faster it is to add new components to the former deck. That's why you always build your engine first and then add payload. On the other hand, when you're already drawing your deck, it doesn't help much to add more cards that draw, because there's nothing more to draw, and that's when you want payload, such as Grand Market.
What you're calling the early game here sounds like what I would call the mid game. No way I'm getting to $8 average or drawing my deck in the early game. Given the opportunity to open with either GM or Lab I would open GM on the vast majority of boards before moving onto the Labs. You need to add some economy first before you can afford those Labs right?

Early game = when you're not drawing your deck yet (in the context of the post you were quoting, at least). I'm not sure what you would call the mid game, but it's worth evaluating whether or not you would call it "the mid game" just because it feels like it's roughly in the middle of the game or because there is a strategically relevant reason to make a distinction between that and other strategically relevant stages of the game.

You start with a deck full of economy, you only need to add more if you trash it away or if you can't draw enough of it to hit the price points you need to be hitting. If you can open Lab, you don't necessarily need to add any economy at all.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: Seprix on February 09, 2017, 12:53:02 pm
Anyhow, you have an interesting definition of "obvious" and "fact" here. It's kind of douchey to conflate your own opinion with objective truth, tristan.
You can claim that I am another poster if you wish but I am new here. Given that you obviously hold some sort of grudge against me or the guy you confuse me with it is not surprising that it is not possible to rationally discuss Dominion with you. Not that such a discussion is possible with flat-eathers in the first place.

Whether you like it or not, it is a fact that Grand Market is generally better than Lab. If it isn't, feel free to explain why the game designer made GMs much harder to get than Labs.
For the same reason Festival is better than Village; combined with a Smithy the combo is 2 Labs vs. Lab+GM. Unsurprisingly
the average card in a deck is worse than Charm.

It's so obvious you're Tristan that it's not even funny. Give it a rest.

At least this preposterous discussions shows that mirror universes in which fair is foul and foul is fair do exist and that communication between our world and topsy-turvy land is possible.

Awaclus is pretty much the Donald Trump of Dominion.

Awaclus is too logical to be the Donald Trump of Dominion. Awaclus is not a crowd-pleaser, but is rather an ethical robot in that he applies the same test to everything.

Thread lock in 3, 2, 1...

Come on guys, stop it please

obey this man!
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: markusin on February 09, 2017, 01:03:23 pm
Festival is like almost-strictly-better-than-Silver, hence it costs $5. It's not as good as Village for drawing the deck, but it can be situationally stronger with draw-to-x and helps you skip buying treasure payload. Festival does suck when it's your only splitter and you really need to line it up with your draw in your opening hand. Without support, that is.

Edit: Okay, to help make it clear what I am trying to say, think of how you feel when you get an opening hand like Festival-Festival-Festival-Moneylender-Estate.

You know, Grand Market usually dominates in games with trashing where you don't really need much Laboratory-style stuff to play every GM in your deck. Not every game has super fast trashing though, and Lab helps you get to your trasher and maybe your attack faster than GM. Later you can get the GM and steamroll.

I would say GM and Lab accomplish different things, but I rank GM higher overall because it covers payload acceleration dramatically in a way Lab does not feel like it does for deck reliability. The +Buy with the GM gives so much pile control. Every GM play is another potential Estate you can buy to help close out the game on 3-pile.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: werothegreat on February 09, 2017, 02:42:20 pm
I wonder how many ranks Relic will go up
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: Deadlock39 on February 09, 2017, 08:12:48 pm
I think Festival is most accurately equated to a Vassal that hits a Necropolis plus a Market Square.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: ThetaSigma12 on February 09, 2017, 08:31:22 pm
I think Festival is most accurately equated to a Vassal that hits a Necropolis plus a Market Square.
How does Vassal hit 2 cards?
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: Beyond Awesome on February 09, 2017, 08:35:11 pm
I think Festival is most accurately equated to a Vassal that hits a Necropolis plus a Market Square.
How does Vassal hit 2 cards?

You Vassal a Vassal apparently with Lost Arts on it so it functions like Necropolis, sort of.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: markusin on February 09, 2017, 08:42:45 pm
I think Festival is most accurately equated to a Vassal that hits a Necropolis plus a Market Square.
How does Vassal hit 2 cards?

You Vassal a Vassal apparently with Lost Arts on it so it functions like Necropolis, sort of.

Or the Market Square was chosen with Lost Arts. No wait that doesn't work.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: werothegreat on February 09, 2017, 09:35:35 pm
Your Vassal hits a Seaway-d Necropolis that puts a random card back on top of your deck
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: markusin on February 09, 2017, 10:07:19 pm
Your Vassal hits a Seaway-d Necropolis that puts a random card back on top of your deck

How do you Seaway a Necropolis when it is a non-supply Card?

It's more like your Vassal hits a Ruined Village with the +Action Token and +Buy Token on Ruins.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: Deadlock39 on February 09, 2017, 10:15:03 pm
No... Poor use of language.

The Vassal hits Necropolis, then you play Market Square separately.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: werothegreat on February 09, 2017, 11:32:30 pm
Your Vassal hits a Seaway-d Necropolis that puts a random card back on top of your deck

How do you Seaway a Necropolis when it is a non-supply Card?

*magic*
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: weety4 on February 10, 2017, 02:04:29 am
At least this preposterous discussions shows that mirror universes in which fair is foul and foul is fair do exist and that communication between our world and topsy-turvy land is possible.

Awaclus is pretty much the Donald Trump of Dominion.
Was the point of this post something else than to insult a forum member that sometimes voices opinions that differ from your own?

I don't care if people disagree with me; I might actually be wrong. It happens. Maybe Grand Market sucks and Laboratory is the best card in the universe. Whatever.

What I care about is the tone of the discussion, and somehow it always turns highly annoying and/or nasty with Awaclus in it.
And so you thought "I will work on making the tone less annoying and/or nasty... what could I possibly write to achieve that... oh right, I know: 'Awaclus is pretty much the Donald Trump of Dominion.'!"
Looks like I my initial impression was correct, you do indeed belong to the Awaclus fanclub and always popping up to defend him.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: weety4 on February 10, 2017, 02:06:10 am
So the core strategy is Village + Smithy to draw your deck every turn. Festival helps supplement that strategy because all of its pieces are useful additions to a Village + Smithy deck. You're just never* going to want to run a Festival + Smithy deck when Village is also available.
Yes you do, with good trashing. If Chapel, Festival and Smithy are present going for Festival and Smithy is pretty much a dominant strategy. I totally agree though that in thicker decks draw power matters relatively more. But even then the non-terminal payload of Grand Market is in general better than the extra card from Lab.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: Awaclus on February 10, 2017, 04:46:38 am
Looks like I my initial impression was correct, you do indeed belong to the Awaclus fanclub and always popping up to defend him.

So, the only reason you could possibly defend someone who's unjustly accused is that you're a fan of that person?
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: jsh357 on February 10, 2017, 08:13:12 am
Can you guys yell at each other in private messages so other people don't have to check this thread and just see a bunch of bickering when they hoped for updates to the list?

You can even use more colorful language in private. Everybody wins!
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: Qvist on February 10, 2017, 11:09:55 am
To get this thread back on topic: Part 6 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16854.msg671121#msg671121)
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: markusin on February 10, 2017, 11:27:08 am
I wonder how many ranks Relic will go up

18. The answer is 18 ranks.

Sweet. I always try to get a Relic or two if I can.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: werothegreat on February 10, 2017, 11:46:33 am
I thought we'd see Bustling Village by now.  You guys really like +3 Actions!

Also, Distant Lands has gone up at least 8, City has gone up at least 2, Catacombs has gone up at least 1, and Rabble has at least stayed the same.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: faust on February 10, 2017, 11:50:38 am
I thought we'd see Bustling Village by now.  You guys really like +3 Actions!
Well, it's pretty clear to me that Bustling Village is better than Bandit Camp, which we just saw now, and it's probably also better than Bazaar, which we have yet to see.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: Omastar68 on February 10, 2017, 12:07:41 pm
No one's mentioned Giant or Inn. Those seem a little low to me.

I think Storyteller should go up a bit, even just one space. I don't have much experience w/ the card, but it can give gigantic draw. You do HAVE to pay your money though, so it can never be a Peddler and doesn't help if you draw your deck anyways. Good synergy w/ some things like Poor House(well, you'll probably draw more treasures so maybe not,) and Tactician.

I look forward to seeing the rest:) This seems educational.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: schadd on February 10, 2017, 12:50:25 pm
anyway, the biggest misrank is now behind us. that feels nice.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: aku_chi on February 10, 2017, 01:18:10 pm
anyway, the biggest misrank is now behind us. that feels nice.

Are you referring to Triumph or Storyteller (or something else)?

I'm compiling a list of all the cards where I differ from the community by more than 10 ranks.  It's a long list...  I'll post it with commentary at the end of the rankings (or right before the final set of rankings).  The biggest deviations so far are: Seaway, Storyteller, and Triumph too low; and Jester and Baker too high.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: trivialknot on February 10, 2017, 01:22:35 pm
I rated Triumph lower, but it should be higher.  I played several games where Triumph was just the dominant strategy.  Common mistake is to imagine gaining a bunch of cards, capped off with a Triumph.  NOPE.  Buy lots of Triumphs.  Common line at end of turn: "And... I'll buy 3 Triumphs, gaining 6, 7, and 8 VP."  Give Dominate a run for its money.

Re: Storyteller.  I imagine most of the people who play on Twitch are better players than me, but I often find their Storyteller plays bizarre.  For example, adding Storyteller to an engine just to sift a few copper.  With Storyteller, you don't really need other draw, you just need payoff.  After all, silver = lab.  Storyteller is weak if you're stuck thinking that you only add payoff to your engine after you're drawing deck.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: aku_chi on February 10, 2017, 01:35:22 pm
I rated Triumph lower, but it should be higher.  I played several games where Triumph was just the dominant strategy.  Common mistake is to imagine gaining a bunch of cards, capped off with a Triumph.  NOPE.  Buy lots of Triumphs.  Common line at end of turn: "And... I'll buy 3 Triumphs, gaining 6, 7, and 8 VP."  Give Dominate a run for its money.

It is not unusual for Triumph to completely eclipse all other methods of gaining VP (while Estates last).  The only strike against Triumph is that the games where it can generate the most VP are games that are likely to end on 3-piles before both players have an opportunity to green.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: Chris is me on February 17, 2017, 05:01:26 pm
Any updates on the rest of the list?
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: werothegreat on February 17, 2017, 05:31:41 pm
Any updates on the rest of the list?

Whenever Qvist feels like it?
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: Qvist on February 17, 2017, 05:48:12 pm
Yeah sorry, a mixture of being busy and not being able to concentrate very well. The next part is nearly finished, I just have to do it. I have not forgotten you guys.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: Qvist on February 28, 2017, 08:28:55 am
Part 7 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16854.msg671122#msg671122) Again, sorry for the longer break.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: Chris is me on February 28, 2017, 09:10:28 am
City went up????

Bustling Village is gonna fall from there soon.

Glad to see Distant Lands getting a lot more recognition.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: Hks on February 28, 2017, 10:40:35 am
Interesting that Bazaar and Bustling Village are so close to each other.

Bazaar: +1 card, +2 actions, +1$
Bustling village (worst case): +1 cards, +3 actions
Bustling village (best case): +2 cards, +3 actions, +1$

Even in the worst case it's better than Bazaar, so I thought it would be obvious that Bustling Village was better.
Then I remembered it's a split pile.
Now I'm not sure.
How big of a drawback is that split pile? With Settlers being #24/39 of the 0-2 cost cards...

EDIT: *cough*jkofcbazaarisbetter*cough*
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: GendoIkari on February 28, 2017, 10:44:36 am
Interesting that Bazaar and Bustling Village are so close to each other.

Bazaar: +1 card, +2 actions, +1$
Bustling village (worst case): +1 cards, +3 actions
Bustling village (best case): +2 cards, +3 actions, +1$

Even in the worst case it's better than Bazaar, so I thought it would be obvious that Bustling Village was better.
Then I remembered it's a split pile.
Now I'm not sure.
How big of a drawback is that split pile? With Settlers being #24/39 of the 0-2 cost cards...

Pretty sure Bazaar is better than a simple +1 cards, +3 actions. The latter is simply playing 2 Villages; the former is a Village and a Peddler.

I have no idea how being a split card affects card strength, though.

*Edit* Actually, I just realized that Bustling Village without the ability to find a Settlers is a Port, a (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/2/2a/Coin4.png/16px-Coin4.png) card.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: werothegreat on February 28, 2017, 11:06:08 am
Uh how the hell is Legionary below Wild Hunt and Crown
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: jsh357 on February 28, 2017, 11:06:46 am
People really need to stop pretending Port = +3 actions. That's only true if you draw both of them; what it actually does is different from that.

I think Bazaar is a better card on average than Bustling Village. If you are drawing your deck and don't have filtering, e.g. Dungeon, Settlers can be dead weight. Trashing Copper also diminishes the card some, and it basically requires BustyV to be useful then. The card is better when you can't quite draw everything.

Meanwhile, Bazaar is almost universally useful. I probably get it 99% of the time it's available. The only time you pass it up is if there's a cheaper village, and even then it's not a bad deal to have. By the metrics I rated by, Bazaar is slightly better than BustyV.

Re: Placement of Legionary, I think Crown and Wild Hunt are easily stronger and useful in more decks than Legionary. Wild Hunt is particularly explosive but also a great engine part, and Triumph should be rated similarly (but isn't). Legionary is obviously good, though.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: Awaclus on February 28, 2017, 11:08:56 am
Pretty sure Bazaar is better than a simple +1 cards, +3 actions. The latter is simply playing 2 Villages; the former is a Village and a Peddler.

I know you didn't say anything about cost comparisons, but that sounds an awful lot like cost comparisons so I'll treat it as such.

Well, that isn't necessarily that accurate of a comparison, since Peddler, Bazaar and even Poacher all have very different roles. Peddler is a payload card that you can buy a ton of for free once you have your engine somewhat running, Poacher is a card that helps you skip Silver in the early game, and Bazaar is a $5 component card that helps a little bit with economy and payload. That's why Poacher is accurately priced at $4 you want to be able to open it, but getting two of them in the opening would make it too trivial to skip Silver entirely. In the meantime, Peddler is accurately priced at $0 (which is what it usually costs when you actually buy it), because you can't open with it anyway, and it would be pretty insufficient for its intended purpose if it cost $4. And Bazaar can't cost $4 because then it would be crazy good at Poacher's role in addition to being pretty good (but not necessarily broken) at its current role.

On the other hand, having a Village and a Peddler is very equivalent to having Bazaar, whereas having 2 Villages is actually better than having one top-of-the-shuffle Bustling Village, because those two Villages will be spread out throughout the entire deck and, thusly, have a higher chance that at least one of them will line up with terminals.

So I guess what I'm saying here is that Port is actually a stronger effect than Bazaar, even if you ignore the fact that it's also cheaper.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: faust on February 28, 2017, 11:13:37 am
I think both Bazaar and Bustling Village are overrated here. They are not really worth getting with other (cheaper) splitters around, and that's a significant portion of games (too lazy to calculate).
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: Awaclus on February 28, 2017, 11:19:32 am
I think both Bazaar and Bustling Village are overrated here. They are not really worth getting with other (cheaper) splitters around, and that's a significant portion of games (too lazy to calculate).

That's true, because so many Smithy variants cost $5 so you generally want to spend the opportunity on that whenever you get it.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: 4est on February 28, 2017, 11:27:54 am
Uh how the hell is Legionary below Wild Hunt and Crown

I was wondering the exact same thing...

Wild Hunt is usually just a Smithy, which can occasionally junk yourself for a few points.  Yeah, it can potentially rack up a lot of VP, but that usually only happens if your opponent is foolish enough to not buy one too.  Otherwise, it's usually just a Smithy. 

And most of the time, Crown is literally Throne Room.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: Jack Rudd on February 28, 2017, 11:32:14 am
Crown is Throne Room, but less likely to be drawn dead. Or drawn undead.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: Awaclus on February 28, 2017, 11:45:06 am
Wild Hunt is crazy strong, quite likely the strongest Smithy+ variant, or at least a very close second to Torturer. If you, say, win the split 7-3, that probably means your opponent has to use all of his Wild Hunts for draw, and then you can use 6 of yours for draw and the 7th to gain an Estate and 9 VP tokens for free every turn, which is nuts especially since your opponent can't do the same. Even if your opponent is also able to use his last Wild Hunt for points every turn, with a 6-4 split that still makes a difference of 2 VP per turn, which is quite substantial. What this means is that you absolutely have to not lose the Wild Hunt split as long as there's decent splitting on the board, which makes it a pretty damn strong card.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: trivialknot on February 28, 2017, 12:10:17 pm
Bustling village suffers a lot from being the bottom of a split pile.

Let's say that Bustling Village is the only splitter, we can ask, is the engine viable?  The engine is viable if it can beat out non-engine strategies.  But if you're playing against a non-engine, then they probably don't want Bustling Villages, and therefore won't help you buy out the Settlers.  You need to buy ALL the settlers yourself, before your engine even has the possibility to kick off.  Furthermore, having all the Settlers usually only helps your Bustling Villages if you aren't drawing your deck every turn.  Finally, being on the bottom of the split pile implies that there are only 5 Bustling Villages, and opponents might even contest you.  You need to have one of your few Bustling Villages in hand in order to kick off your turn.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: faust on February 28, 2017, 12:35:10 pm
Wild Hunt is crazy strong, quite likely the strongest Smithy+ variant, or at least a very close second to Torturer. If you, say, win the split 7-3, that probably means your opponent has to use all of his Wild Hunts for draw, and then you can use 6 of yours for draw and the 7th to gain an Estate and 9 VP tokens for free every turn, which is nuts especially since your opponent can't do the same. Even if your opponent is also able to use his last Wild Hunt for points every turn, with a 6-4 split that still makes a difference of 2 VP per turn, which is quite substantial. What this means is that you absolutely have to not lose the Wild Hunt split as long as there's decent splitting on the board, which makes it a pretty damn strong card.

Edge case: You want to empty the Estates before Wild Hunts kick off.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: Awaclus on February 28, 2017, 01:01:57 pm
But if you're playing against a non-engine, then they probably don't want Bustling Villages

and opponents might even contest you.

Okay.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: Chris is me on February 28, 2017, 02:19:33 pm
Agreed with the consensus on Wild Hunt. It is an extremely strong source of VP that combines draw and payload into effectively a single card. It allows the engine to score points that actually matter while continuing to just build and build.

It's not "just a smithy that occasionally junks you", and to say so is to indicate you have never really played with it. It's a super consistent payload that scores several points a turn in a real enginez

Legionary is great when you can make it work consistently... but when you can make it work consistently, there's a strong engine, an engine which is somewhat likely to kick off with just 2 known cards in hand. It's still a very powerful 5, but it's no Wild Hunt.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: Beyond Awesome on February 28, 2017, 03:45:04 pm
City and Bustling Village are too high.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: McGarnacle on February 28, 2017, 03:50:36 pm
Wow, I guess I've been underrating Wild Hunt.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: luser on February 28, 2017, 04:43:14 pm
Yes, I would rename it to busted village as it is terrible village that should be near festival. as I could most time make better engine with festival than bv.

It has worse version of city problem. It is quite ignorable as one player needs to get 5 settlers, then he will likely lose village split 3-2 as opponent will buy village first.
Then its one of most unreliable villages as with only 3 villages you often stall on not having starting village to play smithy. These 3 actions instead two aren't that useful as if you play smithy you often find village to play second smithy and there is bigger chance to stall on not finding second busted village than with normal village.

Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: AdrianHealey on February 28, 2017, 04:46:08 pm
Bustling village is great when it works, but it just needs so much set up to make it valueable.

Bustling village and settles should be reverse (bottom/top). That would work.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: Marcory on February 28, 2017, 05:32:33 pm
But then Settlers would frequently only come into play once most of the Copper has been trashed, rendering them worse than Pearl Diver.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: AdrianHealey on February 28, 2017, 07:46:05 pm
But then Settlers would frequently only come into play once most of the Copper has been trashed, rendering them worse than Pearl Diver.

Being able to get a settlers from the discard, makes your bustling village the equivalent of: +3 actions, +2 cards. And if you can actually get a copper from the discard with your settler: +3 cards, +3 cards (of which 1 copper).

That ain't so bad. And if you have trashed all coppers, you need not buy settlers. (But even then it can turn your bustling village into +3 actions, +2 cards, which ain't bad.)
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: Cuzz on February 28, 2017, 09:07:22 pm
I am always excited to see Settlers on the board, but only because I mistakenly think it's Encampment roughly 100% of the time.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: LibraryAdventurer on February 28, 2017, 09:56:51 pm
Really surprised we haven't seen Crown yet. Didn't think a $5 cost Throne Room would make it this high on the list.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: Awaclus on March 01, 2017, 01:56:14 pm
Regarding the strength of Wild Hunt (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=17049.msg680494#msg680494)
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: Qvist on March 04, 2017, 10:47:00 am
Part 8 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16854.msg671123#msg671123)
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: werothegreat on March 04, 2017, 12:08:26 pm
Who the hell voted Knights as first

Also, looks like Royal Carriage is a big winner this year, and Count and Bridge Troll have also risen.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: McGarnacle on March 04, 2017, 12:38:28 pm
Jester!
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: faust on March 04, 2017, 12:39:46 pm
Haunted Woods and Wild Hunt only 2 spots away from each other is insane.

Crown is overrated, and I'm also sceptical about RC's placement.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: Willvon on March 04, 2017, 04:18:15 pm
Is Haunted Woods really that much better than Swamp Hag?  Obviously, it's attack is better later in the game than Swamp Hag because curses will have run out, but 9 points better? 

Also, of the next 14 cards behind it in the list, I would rank at least 1/2 of them ahead of Haunted Woods, including Rabble.  I would think Rabble has about as good a chance of hurting your opponent as Haunted Woods, and it gives you the immediate draw rather than waiting. Also, your opponent can just not buy cards that turn and avoid the attack, but unless you have a Moat in hand or have Lighthouse out, Rabble will always at least possibly make you discard a payload card you wanted to draw.  If there is something I am not appreciating about it that makes Haunted Woods significantly better, I would appreciate the insight.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: aku_chi on March 04, 2017, 04:50:48 pm
Is Haunted Woods really that much better than Swamp Hag?  Obviously, it's attack is better later in the game than Swamp Hag because curses will have run out, but 9 points better? 

Also, of the next 14 cards behind it in the list, I would rank at least 1/2 of them ahead of Haunted Woods, including Rabble.  I would think Rabble has about as good a chance of hurting your opponent as Haunted Woods, and it gives you the immediate draw rather than waiting. Also, your opponent can just not buy cards that turn and avoid the attack, but unless you have a Moat in hand or have Lighthouse out, Rabble will always at least possibly make you discard a payload card you wanted to draw.  If there is something I am not appreciating about it that makes Haunted Woods significantly better, I would appreciate the insight.

So, I think Qvist emphasized the attack of Haunted Woods too much in his video.  I think the duration draw is often more important.  Swamp Hag certainly has a stronger attack than Haunted Woods.  But duration +3 cards is a really powerful effect.  If you're drawing your deck, alternating a pair of Haunted Woods is arguably stronger than having two Hirelings in play.  It's a huge boost to reliability.  Using Haunted Woods for your only source of draw isn't pleasant, but you need a compelling reason not to play with at least two of them whenever they're on the board.  The first two Haunted Woods (ignoring the attack) are almost always more valuable than the first two Smithies, though their marginal value declines faster.

The attack part of Haunted Woods has a large impact on your opponent, but the impact isn't always negative.  So, it has a higher ceiling and a lower floor than Rabble.  Also, Rabble is an attack that gets stronger the more you play (up to a limit).  Haunted Woods's attack also emphasizes that you usually want to play just one per turn.  Both attacks punish early greening and get stronger if there is no way to trash Estates.  They also get stronger when combined with a junker.  Haunted Woods's attack can be worked around with non-buy gaining - even in the situations where it's good.  So, overall, I think Rabble has the stronger attack.  With enough action splitting, there's no reason not to get both if they appear in the same kingdom!  In that situation, I'd buy two Haunted Woods and then switch to Rabbles.

That said, I did rank Haunted Woods a little lower than the community and Rabble a little higher, but they weren't large discrepancies.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: Beyond Awesome on March 04, 2017, 05:25:34 pm
Apprentice seems high. Same for Lab. Crown is fine. Throne variants are better than some people realize.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: faust on March 04, 2017, 06:22:38 pm
Apprentice seems high. Same for Lab. Crown is fine. Throne variants are better than some people realize.

Throne Room is fine where it is on the $4 first, but Crown suffers from the $5 price point the same way all splitters do.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: werothegreat on March 04, 2017, 08:55:23 pm
splitters

Please don't indulge Awaclus
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: Awaclus on March 05, 2017, 02:26:14 am
splitters

Please don't indulge Awaclus

So pointing out that someone should be using better words in order to have a better understanding of Dominion strategy is bad, but pointing out that someone should be using crappier words in order to avoid using the same words that Awaclus is using is good. Okay.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: luser on March 05, 2017, 05:41:13 am
Second part of reason is that swamp hag was overrated as it isn't that good. Its ignorable for engine with any trasher better than trade route. With duration and missing shuffles its so slow that it doesn't gives many curses early and later opponent could trash gained junk next turn. If you add gainers, spending turns while hag is in play trashing and that buying two 5 engine components happens late and earlier one could just get one five cost and curse instead several cheaper components. Last as terminal money it isn't very effective engine payload. 

Crown looks fine as treasure part adds reliability that throne room lacks, getting throne room with only two terminals is usually mistake as you draw it dead. Also it improves reliability by reducing needed engine payload, 2 crowns and 2 golds are same as two golds and you could use these crowns to draw you deck but no golds..
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: Chris is me on March 05, 2017, 06:58:35 am
Swamp Hag is appropriately rated on this list, but if you are playing Swamp Hags such that they give out a single Curse per buy, you are playing them extremely poorly and don't understand how they are supposed to work. You should be stacking multiples of them during the middle to end game and you should avoid playing them early to leave Curses in the pile to keep the pseudo pin alive on borderline-engine boards.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: markusin on March 05, 2017, 07:58:53 am
To Swamp Hag's credit, Curses gained due to Swamp Hag are more likely to show up in an opening hand since, and possibly in bursts, because you (generally) have no chance to trash the Curses before you draw up again after cleanup. With a card like Witch you gain the Curses after you have drawn your starting cards and so it is slightly easier for your draw to kick off and find the newly gained Curses to trash.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: terminalCopper on March 05, 2017, 08:31:17 am
Is Haunted Woods really that much better than Swamp Hag?  Obviously, it's attack is better

Let me tell you a story (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Storyteller): The difference between coins and cards is huge.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: GendoIkari on March 05, 2017, 10:23:23 am
splitters

Please don't indulge Awaclus

I disagree with most of what Awaclus says, and I really dislike his style of discussion as a whole.

That being said, it feels like there's a lot of people who are throwing insults his way for no reason at all lately. Whether or not splitter is the best possible term, I'm pretty sure Awaclus isn't the only one who uses it, and as far as I know he didn't create it (I could be wrong). But either way, using the term is not "indulging Awaclus", and even if it were, the fact that Awaclus is the one being indulged is not relevant the the question of whether or not it's a good term.

As for the term itself, it's one of many possible and valid terms to use for this. I don't personally use it, but it's fine and accurate to what it does.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: aku_chi on March 05, 2017, 10:42:52 am
To Swamp Hag's credit, Curses gained due to Swamp Hag are more likely to show up in an opening hand since, and possibly in bursts, because you (generally) have no chance to trash the Curses before you draw up again after cleanup. With a card like Witch you gain the Curses after you have drawn your starting cards and so it is slightly easier for your draw to kick off and find the newly gained Curses to trash.

This is especially relevant when you trash out-of-deck, like Lookout, Sentry, or Doctor.

Second part of reason is that swamp hag was overrated as it isn't that good. Its ignorable for engine with any trasher better than trade route. With duration and missing shuffles its so slow that it doesn't gives many curses early and later opponent could trash gained junk next turn.

There are some trashers that are good at removing most of your starting cards, but struggle to trash Curses (the previously mentioned three plus Ratcatcher).  There are plenty of engine boards where there is no way to trash Curses.  There are plenty of engine boards where the trashing is terminal and terminal space is precious.  And there are other boards where your opponent doesn't have a good Curse trasher anymore after the early game (Raze, Donate, remodeling or Bonfiring your other trasher).  Finally, a single Swamp Hag can be more oppressive than a single Witch in an engine mirror, because your opponent might want to buy more than one card.

If you ignore Swamp Hag in engine mirrors, you will lose games.

On the other hand, Swamp Hag's attack can be worked around with gainers or events.  For that reason, it's ignorable on some boards without trashing, which most junkers are not.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: McGarnacle on March 05, 2017, 10:45:57 am
That being said, it feels like there's a lot of people who are throwing insults his way for no reason at all lately.

RSP fallout?
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: Omastar68 on March 05, 2017, 02:11:03 pm
I wonder where Witch will end up. tbh surprised it's above Lab. I'm not sure I disagree with that-just don't really know enough to decide. Certainly I often find cursing to be somewhat irrelevant if there's good trashing and I don't win the split by much. Other strong terminals can really conflict too, and I often draw stuff dead with Witch why I kinda like Lab better. Goons is one of the main ones that conflicts, and you also got stuff like Margrave. Things that can benefit from Curses, even just a little, like Gardens, Fairgrounds, and Quest(attack lol) make me wary of Witch, while Lab is rarely ever a bad investment, mostly only if Hunting Party is on the board too.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: markusin on March 05, 2017, 03:44:06 pm
I wonder where Witch will end up. tbh surprised it's above Lab. I'm not sure I disagree with that-just don't really know enough to decide. Certainly I often find cursing to be somewhat irrelevant if there's good trashing and I don't win the split by much. Other strong terminals can really conflict too, and I often draw stuff dead with Witch why I kinda like Lab better. Goons is one of the main ones that conflicts, and you also got stuff like Margrave. Things that can benefit from Curses, even just a little, like Gardens, Fairgrounds, and Quest make me wary of Witch, while Lab is rarely ever a bad investment, mostly only if Hunting Party is on the board too.

There is all this talk about "good trashing", but very few trashers can make it so that you aren't behind a player who opened Witch or some other junker without getting the junker yourself at some point. Junker + trasher is often the way to go. I don't know if that has changed much on average since Empires.

Also don't underestimate the power of a mid-game junker that comes in once engines are starting to come together. Aku_chi just made a good point here about some trashers being great early, when even more restrictive trashers usually find trashing targets, but become less reliable once you have more good cards in your deck. Cards like Sentry, Lookout, and Doctor come to mind. Even Steward is a card you'd rather not waste on trashing in the midgame when draw and coins would otherwise be more attractive options. The result is that a midgame junker can sneak in some Curses and other Junk that remain by the end of the game.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: Awaclus on March 05, 2017, 04:48:35 pm
Junking is really strong. Even in the worst case scenario, handing out a Curse is, edge cases aside, equivalent to handing out a -card token some time in your opponent's next shuffle, and if Witch did literally that instead of junking, you would still buy it in a lot of situations. However, unless your opponent already has an overdrawing engine, it's better if he draws exactly his deck, that Curse might be just enough to prevent his engine from functioning at all which can be super important, and if the Curse hangs around for a second shuffle, it's twice as bad.

What's noteworthy about junking is that you need fast cycling to combat it, and junking itself slows your cycling down significantly. You can most obviously see this in Ambassador games, where one player ends up with a super thin deck pretty fast while the other player is probably not at all thin at that point, because a very small advantage in the early game (such as not colliding Ambs) can lead to a very dramatic difference a few shuffles later. This is also why you need both trashing and junking trashing lets you play your junking more frequently, while junking makes your opponent play his trashing less frequently.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: Qvist on March 12, 2017, 02:23:29 pm
Part 9 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16854.msg671124#msg671124)
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: Awaclus on March 12, 2017, 03:18:07 pm
Counterfeit and Count should be higher, Ghost Ship is overrated. Butcher might be overrated as well. The problem with Butcher is that, while its effect is definitely very strong, it's at its best at the stage when you want to get rid of your cards, but it doesn't actually get rid of your cards unless it can directly turn them into engine components, which it usually does a pretty clumsy job at even when the kingdom allows it. It's good for big money and slog games, but those aren't really very common.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: Beyond Awesome on March 12, 2017, 04:34:17 pm
Butcher and Count are too low. Hunting Party should have dropped harder. It's no longer the power card it once was.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: Awaclus on March 12, 2017, 04:48:59 pm
Butcher and Count are too low. Hunting Party should have dropped harder. It's no longer the power card it once was.

How is Butcher too low?
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: werothegreat on March 12, 2017, 08:30:49 pm
So Upgrade is now in the top 10.  People really like cantrip trashing.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: McGarnacle on March 12, 2017, 10:58:29 pm
Count I always thought was good. Options are good, and it sure gives you options.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: Chris is me on March 12, 2017, 11:28:32 pm
Butcher and Count are too low. Hunting Party should have dropped harder. It's no longer the power card it once was.

How is Butcher too low?

Butcher should easily be in the top 10.

I'm fine with Count where it is, though.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: Beyond Awesome on March 12, 2017, 11:41:44 pm
I'm really curious to see where Cultist and Mountebank end up this time.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: Dingan on March 13, 2017, 12:18:53 am
(Apologies if it's already been discussed; I've been a bit out of the loop lately)

Surprised Margrave is above Ghost Ship.  I guess the 1 more card and buy are that important?  But GS is slightly better when stacked and just so, so powerful in the early game.  Not that Margrave isn't, but the not being able to cycle Estates or whatever is just so devastating.

Also surprised Legionary is so low.  I'd almost put it on-par with GS, maybe.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: JW on March 13, 2017, 12:22:36 am
I'm really curious to see where Cultist and Mountebank end up this time.

1 and 2, not necessarily respectively.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: Beyond Awesome on March 13, 2017, 01:00:32 am
I'm really curious to see where Cultist and Mountebank end up this time.

1 and 2, not necessarily respectively.

I meant I wonder if Cultist will be 1.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: Awaclus on March 13, 2017, 04:37:08 am
Butcher should easily be in the top 10.

...how? Surely Count is better than Butcher, it actually gets rid of your cards.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: Chris is me on March 13, 2017, 02:30:17 pm
I just completely don't get how you don't get Butcher.

There is no phase of the game where Butcher is anything but great. Early on, Estates become something else. Mid game, Silvers become components, cheap components become expensive components, etc. Late game, components become Provinces, or you mill Provinces. At any point you can even just play it terminal and hoard tokens, which isn't stellar but it's still pretty decent.

Like Butcher is a card that can singlehandedly make a weak engine worth going for even in the absence of other ways to gain multiple cards per turn. Saying "it doesn't make your deck thinner" is so profoundly missing the point that I just don't get it. Butcher is almost universally good, and almost any deck with the terminal space for it should have a few. It's so rarely skippable.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: Awaclus on March 13, 2017, 03:15:52 pm
I just completely don't get how you don't get Butcher.

There is no phase of the game where Butcher is anything but great. Early on, Estates become something else. Mid game, Silvers become components, cheap components become expensive components, etc. Late game, components become Provinces, or you mill Provinces. At any point you can even just play it terminal and hoard tokens, which isn't stellar but it's still pretty decent.

You can use Remodel to do all of those things except for the coin token thing, and Remodel is not a great $4 card.

Like Butcher is a card that can singlehandedly make a weak engine worth going for even in the absence of other ways to gain multiple cards per turn. Saying "it doesn't make your deck thinner" is so profoundly missing the point that I just don't get it. Butcher is almost universally good, and almost any deck with the terminal space for it should have a few. It's so rarely skippable.

It's a card that can singlehandedly make a weak engine worse than Butcher/BM, I'll grant you that. But saying that it doesn't make your deck thinner is, in fact, profoundly getting the point. The point is to get thinner and that's what Butcher doesn't do. Whether or not you have the terminal space for it is one question, but the more important question is: do you have the time for it? It costs a turn to buy a Butcher, and because it doesn't get you thin and it isn't an engine component, it needs to give you one full extra turn worth of benefit during the course of the game to be worth it. And yeah, usually it does that, but it doesn't do all that much more than that.

In games with super good trashing like Chapel or Count, Butcher is a lot better because it helps you out of that weird stage where you don't have any cards but somehow you'd need to turn that into a consistent engine. In other engine games, it doesn't really have a role to play, you just buy it because it's a good card. The fact that it doesn't have a role to play in a regular engine is super important.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: Chris is me on March 13, 2017, 03:35:17 pm
I just completely don't get how you don't get Butcher.

There is no phase of the game where Butcher is anything but great. Early on, Estates become something else. Mid game, Silvers become components, cheap components become expensive components, etc. Late game, components become Provinces, or you mill Provinces. At any point you can even just play it terminal and hoard tokens, which isn't stellar but it's still pretty decent.

You can use Remodel to do all of those things except for the coin token thing, and Remodel is not a great $4 card.


Okay at this point I honestly don't believe you're not fucking with me. Butcher is so much better than Remodel. It's not even CLOSE. "The coin token thing" is the whole reason the card works.

Every time you make an Estate into a Silver, a Silver into a 4 cost, or you mill a Province, you increase the power of future Butchers by not using those tokens. This makes it very easy to turn $5 costs into Provinces later on, or to change other Estates into $5 costs, or to even trash Curses into 3 costs if you're really in a pinch. Plus if you're desperate you can still use tokens in the normal fashion.

Remodel suffers from how rigid it is - it only goes up $2, it provides less benefit if you don't upgrade a card's cost, and it doesn't really help if you don't need it. Butcher goes up any amount of money, it provides MORE benefit if you don't upgrade the cost of a card, and it enables itself if you don't need it that turn.

Quote
Like Butcher is a card that can singlehandedly make a weak engine worth going for even in the absence of other ways to gain multiple cards per turn. Saying "it doesn't make your deck thinner" is so profoundly missing the point that I just don't get it. Butcher is almost universally good, and almost any deck with the terminal space for it should have a few. It's so rarely skippable.

It's a card that can singlehandedly make a weak engine worse than Butcher/BM, I'll grant you that. But saying that it doesn't make your deck thinner is, in fact, profoundly getting the point. The point is to get thinner and that's what Butcher doesn't do. Whether or not you have the terminal space for it is one question, but the more important question is: do you have the time for it? It costs a turn to buy a Butcher, and because it doesn't get you thin and it isn't an engine component, it needs to give you one full extra turn worth of benefit during the course of the game to be worth it. And yeah, usually it does that, but it doesn't do all that much more than that.

In games with super good trashing like Chapel or Count, Butcher is a lot better because it helps you out of that weird stage where you don't have any cards but somehow you'd need to turn that into a consistent engine. In other engine games, it doesn't really have a role to play, you just buy it because it's a good card. The fact that it doesn't have a role to play in a regular engine is super important.

The card isn't a thinner. No one is saying it is. No one is saying thinning isn't important! But it has nothing to do with thinning. It's like saying "Ghost Ship is worse than Ratcatcher because Ghost Ship doesn't thin your deck". It is that ridiculous of an argument. That is how little sense what you're saying makes.

To argue it has "no role to play in a regular engine" is just straight up ignorant. Like if this was the first post I read by you, I wouldn't believe you'd ever played a game with Butcher.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: faust on March 13, 2017, 03:59:52 pm
I feel like there is some kind of misunderstanding here. Chris acts as though Awaclus claims that Butcher is garbage; which he clearly isn't. (He explicitly says "Butcher is a good card" in his post.) He doesn't say that Butcher isn't much better than Remodel; he's just pointing out that if most the reasons you think Butcher is great also apply to Remodel, maybe you should reconsider your argument.

Thing is that competition at the top of the $5 list is pretty stiff. Surely Butcher is a good card, but Awaclus is correct that it does not usually play a role in engines; i.e. there aren't many boards where Butcher makes an engine viable that otherwise wouldn't be. You will usually still add Butcher to your engine, but it's not a key card. Almost all other cards in that segment of the $5 list are major engines enablers (the exception being Royal Carriage).
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: Awaclus on March 13, 2017, 04:31:28 pm
I feel like there is some kind of misunderstanding here. Chris acts as though Awaclus claims that Butcher is garbage; which he clearly isn't. (He explicitly says "Butcher is a good card" in his post.) He doesn't say that Butcher isn't much better than Remodel; he's just pointing out that if most the reasons you think Butcher is great also apply to Remodel, maybe you should reconsider your argument.

Thing is that competition at the top of the $5 list is pretty stiff. Surely Butcher is a good card, but Awaclus is correct that it does not usually play a role in engines; i.e. there aren't many boards where Butcher makes an engine viable that otherwise wouldn't be. You will usually still add Butcher to your engine, but it's not a key card. Almost all other cards in that segment of the $5 list are major engines enablers (the exception being Royal Carriage).

I was about to post a response to Chris I had typed, but it was a lot longer than this. Well done.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: aku_chi on May 09, 2017, 11:30:39 pm
With the intent to generate productive discussion, I will comprehensively discuss the cards I ranked significantly different from the community.  The threshold is 11 ranks different.  I'll start with the card the community ranked significantly higher than I did.  In case Qvist is keeping me honest, my personal rankings here might differ slightly from the ones I submitted, but I haven't changed them since the $5 cards list began.

Baker - Community:45 - Personal:69
Each year, I think that Baker is overrated and sure to drop in the community rankings.  This year is no different.  If we ignore the starting coin token on startup (which I believe we're supposed to), I'm never excited to see Baker in the kingdom.  The only games I've played where Baker is a key card is when it's the best target for +card from Pathfinding or Teacher.  I believe Baker is one of the weakest Peddler+ variants; I ranked it lower than Artificer, Market, and Emporium and stand by my decision.

Jester - Community:42 - Personal:63
I'm surprised by the community's high ranking of Jester.  Jester is a fine card, I suppose, but it often has a ton of competition as terminal payload.  As a junker, it's clearly weaker than the other $5 junkers - usually junking with Copper.  As a gainer, it can be good, but it's really inconsistent.  It feels so bad to reveal a card that has piled or an ambiguous card like Silver.  Jester is better with more players, and maybe I'm ranking it lower than it deserves due to variance.

Distant Lands- Community:36 - Personal:57
I was really shocked that Distant Lands was rated so highly.  In my experience, this card looks better than it is.  Some games end on piles, and Distant Lands are generally useless on these boards.  Other boards are gain-limited, and by the time you dip into non-Province VP, the guaranteed 3 VP from the Duchy is often more attractive than the potential 4 VP from Distant Lands.  There are certainly boards where Distant Lands will make the difference, but even on these boards it isn't super important to win the split.  Certainly, Triumph and Groundskeeper are stronger alternative VP than Distant Lands.

Archive- Community:50 - Personal:68
Yeah, I underrated Archive.  It's a strong card and might even rise in the rankings next year.  It isn't as generally useful as Laboratory (obviously), but it can be even better on boards with limited trashing.  Cool card.

Ghost Ship - Community:14 - Personal:28
Yeah, Ghost Ship has a brutal attack, but terminal +2 cards is so weak.  The Ghost Ship attack has quite a few counters (Guide is the best) and mitigaters (Herald, Enchantress, Chariot Race, etc..).  Also, the Ghost Ship attack doesn't stack with the other handsize attacks.  Those other handsize attacks, without exception, provide better payload; so Ghost Ship tends to be skippable on those boards.  I haven't played a non-Governor game where Ghost Ship was a super star in a long while.  All that said, Ghost Ship is a strong card, but overrated by the community, IMO.

Horn of Plenty - Community:28 - Personal:39
The allure of the Horn of Plenty megaturn is strong, it seems.  Sometimes it works, and it feels great (to the person who pulls it off).  But I expect that in fewer than 20% of the kingdoms with Horn of Plenty are HoP megaturn strategies optimal.  The HoP megaturn requires a lot of overdraw and consistency, which isn't always present.  And sometimes there's stronger payload.  And, sure, Horn of Plenty is a fine card as a non-terminal gainer of $5+ cards, but it isn't a top 30 $5 card for that.  For all that, it's a unique and powerful card.

And now, the larger list of cards I ranked significantly higher than the community.

Stables - Community:29 - Personal:18
I think I was off on this.  I rated Stables adjacent to Laboratory, which I can't defend at this point.  Stables is super good in games where it doesn't make sense to trash Copper (or it does make sense to Silver flood, or something), but it becomes a liability fast in games with strong trashing (though it's still often worth picking up, especially before you've finished trashing).

Trade - Community:62 - Personal:50
The community is coming around, but Trade is great.  Compare it to Embassy.  When Trade is on the board, any decent terminal draw BM becomes really fast and reliable.  So, I think Trade is a better indicator of a strong BM strategy than Embassy.  And Trade is also usually better for engines than Embassy.  The Silvers aren't always great in an engine, but if Trade is the only way to trash Estates, it surely pays off.  Trade is even stronger in games with junk (Witch + Trade is usually dominant, for example).

Treasure Trove - Community:53 - Personal:40
I probably overrated Treasure Trove.  It's great in BM and slogs and often a good one-of in some engines, but it can be a dead card on some engine boards.

Ball - Community:73 - Personal:60
I like the gainer events.  They can work around on-buy penalties.  Ball is great with spammable $4's (like Advisor or Caravan) and fantastic with cost reduction.

Festival - Community:58 - Personal:42
I believe I overrated Festival, though the community might have slightly underrated it.  On paper, Festival is comparable with Bandit Camp and Bazaar, but in practice that lack if draw makes a big difference.  So, Fesitval rarely competes with other villages in the same game, but acts as payload amplification - you plan to play it after drawing before your terminal payload.  And the non-terminal $2 and +buy is sometimes good enough payload if the engine enablers are strong enough.  And, sometimes, Festival is the only way to play additional actions, and you have to go for it even though you might prefer a vanilla Village.
   
Emporium - Community:76 - Personal:56
This one is tough.  Maybe I've mostly played in kingdoms where it's easy to pick up Patricians?  Or maybe my memory is biased towards those games?  In my limited experience, I believe Emporium has been a more impactful card than Baker.  But maybe it belongs lower because it isn't available in some games...

Windfall - Community:75 - Personal:51
This one is hard to evaluate.  It's usually worth buying Windfall in a game where you can activate the condition.  And activating the condition is pretty manageable when you only need $5 in your deck.  Compare with, say, Merchant Guild.  Merchant Guild is best in a draw-your-deck engine.  It gives +buy and smooths buys, but it's so much slower than Windfall.  Windfall keeps your terminal space free for draw and attacks.  I dunno.  I think they have similar power level.

And, the big three:

Storyteller - Community:48 - Personal:20
I do believe I overrated Storyteller a little bit, but boy is it stronger than the community gives it credit for.  My whole strategy changes sometimes when Storyteller is on the board.  The amount of draw it can produce is massive.  If there's a way to ensure that you start your hand with a Storyteller (e.g. Gear, Save, Scheme, Count, etc...), you can gain Silver and Gold without limit and draw your deck with ease.  Storyteller is also good early to cycle through Coppers to see your buys faster (especially important with trashers and travellers).  And Storyteller is good in single-terminal money decks that just want to play that key terminal (e.g. a junker or Haggler) as frequently as possible and buy a Province, too.  Then, there are the cute tricks you can pull off with playing kingdom treaures during your action phase (e.g Coin of the Realm, Treasure Trove).  Storyteller is a great card.

Seaway - Community:71 - Personal:41
Seaway is great.  Extra buys give a lot of pile control.  Seaway is barely even a cost; I'm willing to overpay once for the cards that are good Seaway targets (and there are a LOT of good Seaway targets - like any of the $4 villages).  Plus, it works around on-buy restrictions like Ball.  Woefully underrated.

Triumph - Community:46 - Personal:16
Ya'all goofed.  Triumph is the real deal.  On boards with Triumph and additional gains, it's often incorrect to buy Province.  You can generate an obscene amount of points from Triumph buys; ignore it at your own peril.  Yeah, Triumph is pretty weak in games without additional gains, but those are rare.  And it's pretty trivial for Triumph to be a better buy than Duchy (e.g. Play Bandit, buy Triumph).  And you can buy it earlier in the game with the intent to trash the Estate: sustainable (while Estates last)!  The only sad thing about Triumph is that the games where Triumph could generate the most points are most likely to end on 3-piles, so Triumph will have only a minor impact.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: Chris is me on May 10, 2017, 10:04:38 am
Quote
Other boards are gain-limited, and by the time you dip into non-Province VP, the guaranteed 3 VP from the Duchy is often more attractive than the potential 4 VP from Distant Lands.

There's your problem - you're treating Distant Lands like Duchy. You basically never buy Distant Lands when you would buy Duchy - you only buy it when you wouldn't buy Duchy.

You're also treating Distant Lands as a "not a Province consolation prize" that you only get after greening for provinces. Also wrong! You often go hard into Distant Lands before you pick up any Provinces at all. Imagine an engine mirror where you go for Distant Lands when your opponent goes Provinces. You end up not that far behind but with several fewer stop cards, and you can clean up the last few Provinces to take the lead and win.

Totally agreed on Triumph though - it is one of the strongest events in the game. It basically guarantees that whomever can end the game wins. It's crazy.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: Awaclus on May 10, 2017, 10:25:43 am
It basically guarantees that whomever can end the game wins.

Isn't whomever ends the game always the one who wins though?
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: GendoIkari on May 10, 2017, 10:27:49 am
It basically guarantees that whomever can end the game wins.

Isn't whomever ends the game always the one who wins though?

2 big exceptions to this... both which apply more to IRL play than online. One, a player who has given up hope, and would rather move on to the next game than fight on for a 1% chance that he can come back. Two, a player who hasn't tracked the  score perfectly and isn't sure if he is winning or not, or thinks he is winning but miscounted.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: Chris is me on May 10, 2017, 10:32:36 am
It basically guarantees that whomever can end the game wins.

Isn't whomever ends the game always the one who wins though?

"whomever can end the game" is a different statement than "whomever does end the game".

Many times in normal Dominion games, you can end the game, but you would lose if you did so, and thus you choose not to. Triumph makes these cases very, very, very rare.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: LastFootnote on May 10, 2017, 10:57:24 am
It is frustrating when I play against a Baker Idiot and lose. I mean it's my own fault when it happens, but still a real kick in the teeth.

I think Baker is definitely better than you're giving it credit, aku_chi. I would rank it above Emporium and Artificer for sure in terms of general utility. There are games where Artificer and Emporium are more important, but even in those games I'm probably picking up a Baker or two after I have a couple Artificers or the Emporiums have run out.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: markusin on May 10, 2017, 11:54:37 am
It is frustrating when I play against a Baker Idiot and lose. I mean it's my own fault when it happens, but still a real kick in the teeth.

Still not as bad as losing to a Village Idiot. At least Baker Idiot is a deck archetype (according to Awaclus anyway).
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: JThorne on May 10, 2017, 01:22:45 pm
I have to agree that Baker is a weak peddler variant. If you spend the coin this turn, it's a Peddler variant that does nothing, which the community has agreed is worth $4. If you don't spend the coin this turn, it's a do-nothing cantrip, like a Pawn with no choices or a Pearl Diver that doesn't peek; the community has proposed that an actual do-nothing cantrip would likely be priced at $1. So Baker is a $5 that can either act like a $4 or a $1.

The fact that it gives coin tokens instead of coins is more of an edge case. The thing about coin tokens is that they're only valuable when they smooth out your buys, allowing you to hit $5 and $5 instead of $4 and $6, or possibly even $8 and $16 instead of $12 and $12 if you really want to stretch.

Smoothing out buys over multiple turns is mostly useful in BM when you're trying to hit $8 or $11. With a deck-drawing engine, the difference between coin tokens and coin is almost irrelevant, other than a couple of engine-building buys early. But cantrip-money in general is weak in BM. So Baker's got a built-in anti-synergy.

Sure, there's plenty of "depends on the kingdom" cases, such as $5-gainers, Butcher, etc., and possibly slogs, though I'm not convinced that saving up tokens over multiple turns for VP cards is an efficient use of resources, even in a slog.

Compare it with Artificer: Even playing a single Artificer, discard 3, play two coppers allows you to gain two $3s. Two Artificers and Copper+Silver allows a gain $3, buy $5 or gain $4 buy $4 (kinda Baker-ish smoothing, no? but two gains per play!) If an engine is feasible, Artificer is much more powerful, not to mention that it happily discards green cards for benefit.



Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: Awaclus on May 10, 2017, 01:33:33 pm
I have to agree that Baker is a weak peddler variant. If you spend the coin this turn, it's a Peddler variant that does nothing, which the community has agreed is worth $4. If you don't spend the coin this turn, it's a do-nothing cantrip, like a Pawn with no choices or a Pearl Diver that doesn't peek; the community has proposed that an actual do-nothing cantrip would likely be priced at $1. So Baker is a $5 that can either act like a $4 or a $1.

Eh, I agree with your conclusion but that's not how prices work. A hypothetical Chapel for $5 would be one of the strongest $5s.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: LastFootnote on May 10, 2017, 02:03:36 pm
I have to agree that Baker is a weak peddler variant. If you spend the coin this turn, it's a Peddler variant that does nothing, which the community has agreed is worth $4. If you don't spend the coin this turn, it's a do-nothing cantrip, like a Pawn with no choices or a Pearl Diver that doesn't peek; the community has proposed that an actual do-nothing cantrip would likely be priced at $1. So Baker is a $5 that can either act like a $4 or a $1.

This is of course nonsense. It implies that not spending the Coin token this turn is equivalent to not getting it at all. What? Huh?

It's more like a choice between a fairly strong $4 effect (Peddler) and another $4 effect (Caravan Guard wo/Reaction except you can save the +$1 beyond your next turn AND it doesn't miss shuffles as much because it's not a Duration), but unlike with Band of Misfits, you don't have to decide which of the two effects you get when you play the card. That seems like a pretty great $5 card to me.

Compare it with Artificer: Even playing a single Artificer, discard 3, play two coppers allows you to gain two $3s. Two Artificers and Copper+Silver allows a gain $3, buy $5 or gain $4 buy $4 (kinda Baker-ish smoothing, no? but two gains per play!) If an engine is feasible, Artificer is much more powerful, not to mention that it happily discards green cards for benefit.

You have a double standard here. "Not to mention that it happily discards green cards for benefit"? If we're assuming an engine, ain't gonna be no green cards 'til the very end, and I run up against that problem constantly when playing with Artificer. Not to mention there often aren't $3 cards you want to load up on, so you either get to waste the $ that e.g. your Militia will generate this turn, or you get to not use Artificer's ability.

In my experience, Artificer really shines in two scenarios. Number one: there are $2 cards you want a bunch of. Number two: cost reduction. I'll sometimes buy Artificer for its Peddler effect on other boards, but it has a hard time competing with other $5 options.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: Seprix on May 10, 2017, 02:09:48 pm
I have to agree that Baker is a weak peddler variant. If you spend the coin this turn, it's a Peddler variant that does nothing, which the community has agreed is worth $4.

According to my knowledge, a Peddler worth $4 is overpowered, and the cost is more like $4.5 or something to the effect. Case in point: Poacher, which has a built in nerfing effect so you cannot simply pile them without consequences.

Quote
If you don't spend the coin this turn, it's a do-nothing cantrip, like a Pawn with no choices or a Pearl Diver that doesn't peek; the community has proposed that an actual do-nothing cantrip would likely be priced at $1. So Baker is a $5 that can either act like a $4 or a $1.

With the same logic, Groundskeeper is just a $1 cost worth card worth $5. You're ignoring the flexible economy with tokens. Yes, you don't get instant benefit when saving up, but coin tokens are so incredibly powerful as a reserve threat for pile control. The threat of spiking a Province buy or emptying piles (assuming +buy) at any point is great pile control.

Quote
The fact that it gives coin tokens instead of coins is more of an edge case. The thing about coin tokens is that they're only valuable when they smooth out your buys, allowing you to hit $5 and $5 instead of $4 and $6, or possibly even $8 and $16 instead of $12 and $12 if you really want to stretch.

That is not all Coin Tokens are good for, as I have discussed already.

Quote
Smoothing out buys over multiple turns is mostly useful in BM when you're trying to hit $8 or $11. With a deck-drawing engine, the difference between coin tokens and coin is almost irrelevant, other than a couple of engine-building buys early. But cantrip-money in general is weak in BM. So Baker's got a built-in anti-synergy.

I don't think I would use more than one Baker in a BM strategy. Baker is a terrible BM card.

The difference between coin tokens and coin is not irrelevant. I certainly don't need to explain the virtues of saving up tokens, and holding off on buying sometimes.

Quote
Sure, there's plenty of "depends on the kingdom" cases, such as $5-gainers, Butcher, etc., and possibly slogs, though I'm not convinced that saving up tokens over multiple turns for VP cards is an efficient use of resources, even in a slog.

Compare it with Artificer: Even playing a single Artificer, discard 3, play two coppers allows you to gain two $3s. Two Artificers and Copper+Silver allows a gain $3, buy $5 or gain $4 buy $4 (kinda Baker-ish smoothing, no? but two gains per play!) If an engine is feasible, Artificer is much more powerful, not to mention that it happily discards green cards for benefit.

Artificer is one of the best Dominion cards out there. Baker is certainly not a fantastic card, but it is far from weak.

Junk Dealer
Grand Market
Artificer
Peddler
Emporium
Bazaar
Highway
Poacher
Baker
Merchant
Market
Oasis
Caravan Guard
Treasury


This is about where I have Baker in terms of Peddlers. I know there's the tired expression of it depends on the board and you're talking about overall use, but it really is pretty pointless to discuss the power of a card without looking at the other nine, and the surrounding Events, Landmarks and other conditionals. For example, without +Buy, Baker becomes a lot weaker. With Donate, Junk Dealer becomes a not so great card. With constant discard attacks, it is hard to justify getting an Artificer.

edit: LastFootnote beat me to the punch :'(
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: Awaclus on May 10, 2017, 02:13:14 pm
According to my knowledge, a Peddler worth $4 is overpowered, and the cost is more like $4.5 or something to the effect. Case in point: Poacher, which has a built in nerfing effect so you cannot simply pile them without consequences.

That's still not how prices work.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: Limetime on May 10, 2017, 02:24:15 pm
According to my knowledge, a Peddler worth $4 is overpowered, and the cost is more like $4.5 or something to the effect. Case in point: Poacher, which has a built in nerfing effect so you cannot simply pile them without consequences.
5 is a lot more than 4. Also poacher is defiantly on the weaker end of 4s. The time where Poacher is strong is on the opening and when you much rather would open something cool like upgrade or the like than a peddler(which true purpose early is to hit 5.)


Quote
I don't think I would use more than one Baker in a BM strategy. Baker is a terrible BM card.
Baker is a worse engine card. You would way rather do effective payload rather than 1 coin token per baker per turn.

Quote
The difference between coin tokens and coin is not irrelevant. I certainly don't need to explain the virtues of saving up tokens, and holding off on buying sometimes.
It mostly is once you are drawing your deck. If you are saving up token than you probably are doing something wrong, Your opponent cay spend that money towards cards that contribute to their deck it will probably pay off in less than 2 turns.

Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: trivialknot on May 10, 2017, 02:59:09 pm
The thing about coin token cards, is that they anti-self-synergize.  You only really want a few for flexibility, after which point more flexibility doesn't help and you'd rather get stronger cards.

The thing about peddlers is that they self-synergize.  Buy buying peddlers instead of stop cards, you keep your deck thin.  Peddlers like thin decks because you draw them more often.  I wouldn't be surprised if, without Poacher's drawback, sometimes the correct strategy is to buy all the Poachers.

So, Baker has both of those things.  That makes it always mediocre.  It works best when you have a way to pick them up easily, or when having a lot of flexibility is really good.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: Chris is me on May 10, 2017, 04:10:09 pm
Poacher wasn't a card "too powerful for $4" that was nerfed with the discard ability. It was the other way around - the discard penalty was thought up and it needed a vanilla card to be placed on that wouldn't be too strong if the penalty never activated.

Baker is also a pretty reasonable (if not great) BM card - it does exactly what BM decks like, which is help with spikes and smoothing out coin over multiple turns. Coin tokens are only not often seen with BM because the coin token cards that exist are usually much better for engines.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: O on May 10, 2017, 04:52:43 pm
I feel like people aren't quite aware of the benefits coin tokens have over coins. They absolutely have diminishing comparative value but in games with +buy they provide a couple vital functions:

1. They can allow you to delay greening without sacrificing greening economy to do so, which can be necessary in engines that are just barely holding together.

2. In games that are reliant on Penultimate Province play or potential three pile-out victories, they allow the player to exert more control over their capabilities of ending the game on a VP lead.

3. In games with price-reduction mechanics (Bridge, Bridge Troll, Highway, Princess), they can be stockpiled somewhat in order to maximize the blowout buys when multiple of those reductions stack (-5$ cost with 5 coins not nearly as impressive as -5$ cost with 10 coins)

4. In games where you have an inconsistent source of +buy and are often getting decent coins per turn, the "purchase thresholds" which your coin tokens can roll over into go way past the typical 1-2 coins that you see in BM games.

So while in the majority of games you "only want a few" bakers potentially, there's plenty of circumstances where stacking bakers isn't a particularly bad idea or newb trap at all.

Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: trivialknot on May 10, 2017, 06:56:26 pm
Speaking about something other than Baker,

I feel like Emporium is underrated, but I'm not sure I can justify that feeling.  It sounds really bad on paper, just an expensive peddler with 2 VP attached.  I wouldn't get Great Halls, so why would I get Emporium?  But when it's actually decision time, it looks so good.  I can green, but instead of my deck getting junked, it gets slightly more powerful?  Sign me up.

There are also a couple things that make Emporium "strictly worse" but really make it stronger.  First, the fact that there are only 5 in the supply means you want to get them earlier, before they disappear.  Second, the 5-action restriction means that sometimes the VP is accessible to only one of the players.  You really want to be that player who gets the 10 VP lead.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: McGarnacle on May 10, 2017, 08:22:14 pm
Speaking about something other than Baker,

I feel like Emporium is underrated, but I'm not sure I can justify that feeling.  It sounds really bad on paper, just an expensive peddler with 2 VP attached.  I wouldn't get Great Halls, so why would I get Emporium?  But when it's actually decision time, it looks so good.  I can green, but instead of my deck getting junked, it gets slightly more powerful?  Sign me up.

There are also a couple things that make Emporium "strictly worse" but really make it stronger.  First, the fact that there are only 5 in the supply means you want to get them earlier, before they disappear.  Second, the 5-action restriction means that sometimes the VP is accessible to only one of the players.  You really want to be that player who gets the 10 VP lead.

I have to agree with this. 10VP is a lot, and if you compare Emporium to Duchy, you get 1 point less and something which helps instead of hurts your deck. Cool card. Peddler variant!
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: aku_chi on May 11, 2017, 09:09:14 am
Quote
Other boards are gain-limited, and by the time you dip into non-Province VP, the guaranteed 3 VP from the Duchy is often more attractive than the potential 4 VP from Distant Lands.

There's your problem - you're treating Distant Lands like Duchy. You basically never buy Distant Lands when you would buy Duchy - you only buy it when you wouldn't buy Duchy.

You're also treating Distant Lands as a "not a Province consolation prize" that you only get after greening for provinces. Also wrong! You often go hard into Distant Lands before you pick up any Provinces at all. Imagine an engine mirror where you go for Distant Lands when your opponent goes Provinces. You end up not that far behind but with several fewer stop cards, and you can clean up the last few Provinces to take the lead and win.

Suppose Alice gets Distant Lands before buying any Provinces.  Bob ignores Distant Lands and goes straight for Provinces.  If my math is correct, Alice needs to gain and play all 8 Distant Lands and buy her first Province (38 VP) before Bob gains 6 Provinces (36 VP).  If Alice gains the Province immediately after Bob gains his sixth Province, Bob can win by grabbing the last Province.  Now, maybe that's difficult with 6 stop cards in his deck, so Alice can risk buying the penultimate Province here.  If Bob dips into Duchies, he would need 5 Provinces and 3 Duchies (39 VP) to threaten a win against Alice purchasing her 2nd Province (44 VP).  Another possibility, more favorable to Alice, is if Alice can build up to a double Province turn while gaining and playing Distant Lands.  Then, Alice can double Province (44 VP) to beat a Bob who has 6 Provinces and 2 Duchies (42 VP).  Which strategy is better depends on the board.

Conditions that can make Alice's strategy better or worse than Bob's:
+ The presence of multiple buys or ways to gain multiple Distant Lands per turn*.
+ The presence of action splitting (to play multiple Distant Lands per turn, or at least a Distant Land and other terminals).
- The presence of a strong terminal action payload (e.g. Mountebank, Militia, Haggler, Butcher, etc...).  Alice will be spending some terminal space on Distant Lands, whereas Bob will have all of his terminal space available for these cards.
- The ability to handle extra green cards in one's deck (sifting, setting aside, treasure flooding, etc...).
- Large decks that take multiple turns to cycle.  Bob benefits from the slower cycling, while it will take Alice longer to play her Distant Lands.

* If, however, if the gains are strong enough, Neither Alice nor Bob will be playing the strongest strategy.  A player who keeps building to have a one-sided ability to end the game on piles will have the advantage.  If both players mirror this strategy, Distant Lands will be the worst green card (absent mid-turn gaining and playing shenanigans), because you only want to green when your opponent has the capability to win the game on their next turn absent those points.

There are certainly games where Alice's strategy is stronger than Bob's; Distant Lands is sometimes the right buy.  But I find that these games are the exception rather than the rule.  I'm willing to play a Distant Land cage match (preferably with a Distant Lands advocate) to gather more data.

Edit: Playing a Distant Lands cage match with Rabid on Sunday 18:00 UTC.
Edit 2: Game report (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=17246.msg695285#msg695285)
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: faust on May 11, 2017, 10:43:13 am
(absent mid-turn gaining and playing shenanigans)
That's a pretty big caveat because there are plenty of boards where you can gain and play one or even multiple Distant Lands in the same turn.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: AJD on May 12, 2017, 12:13:15 pm
It sounds really bad on paper, just an expensive peddler with 2 VP attached.  I wouldn't get Great Halls, so why would I get Emporium?

...Because Emporium has 1 more VP and 1 more coin than Great Hall?
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: McGarnacle on May 12, 2017, 12:15:30 pm
It sounds really bad on paper, just an expensive peddler with 2 VP attached.  I wouldn't get Great Halls, so why would I get Emporium?

...Because Emporium has 1 more VP and 1 more coin than Great Hall?

For (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/3/3d/Coin2.png/16px-Coin2.png) more.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: Awaclus on May 12, 2017, 12:31:37 pm
For (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/3/3d/Coin2.png/16px-Coin2.png) more.

Which is a 5/5 bretty good deal, as it turns out. Gold is $3 more than Silver and it only has 1 more coin.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: funkdoc on May 14, 2017, 06:02:06 pm
baker is a great BM card, actually.  there's been a major shift in BM thinking that i think hasn't reached some of f.ds yet.  to explain:

something many of the top players have figured out by now, that took me a while to catch up on, is that most non-drawing BM is better than most terminal draw BM.  i had always thought it was the other way around, but the simulators have uncovered some pretty shocking results.  did you know that dungeon-BM beats embassy-BM if both open 4/3?  or that navigator-BM beats smithy-BM?  or that swamp hag-BM beats cultist-BM?

i think a big reason for this is that the non-drawing strategies give you a lot more flexibility, since you have a far lower risk of terminal collision.  you can add other helpful supporting players like haven, scary endgame weapons like salvager, or even a bit of early trashing!  the terminal draw strategies are forced to be monolithic, which is how we had long thought BM should be played...but we're now learning that optimal BM has more room for variety and adaptation to game state than the conventional wisdom would tell you.

baker is tremendous in this regard since it's non-terminal.  you get flexibility with the amount of money you spend each turn, *and* with your options for additional action cards.  a double-province turn is feasible with something like bridge on the board, or any trash-for-benefit.

i noticed in my own games that i would consistently ignore baker on money boards in favor of big draw...and usually lose to opponents who rushed bakers.  even mass candlestick makers would beat me in these situations!  that's what initially opened my eyes to all of this, and my success has increased greatly since then.

baker-BM is a bit trickier to play correctly than most, which i think is part of why it's still underrated.  here are some helpful ground rules:

- good trashing helps a lot.  baker is similar to jack & gold-gainers in that regard, but trashing is even better in this case since baker is a cantrip.  this makes it easier to line up the trasher with junk cards compared to most other BM strategies, and the trashing also carries more benefit since it can allow you to play 4 or 5 bakers in a turn (vs. 1 jack).  and the beauty of coin tokens is that you can often trash and still get a baker that turn!

for example, on the 2-card kingdom of baker & remake, i would open remake/silver and keep the token.  with junk dealer, open junk dealer/silver then rush bakers with future $5s.  and so on.

- the tokens offer plenty of room for mistakes, but you can do fine sticking to some simple rules for them.  if you have $3 before tokens, take a silver.  if you have $4, always spend the 1 token for a baker.  if you have $5, do not spend a token for gold unless the bakers are gone!  baker is almost as good as gold here and is a much more limited pile, so you need to attack those.  if bakers have run out and you don't feel you have enough gold to start greening yet, then you can spend 1 token for a gold.  and of course, when greening, you want to use all your tokens to grab provinces early then base future token decisions on the game state.  knowing when to stockpile for one more province vs. grabbing duchies now is an important skill.

- as strong as baker is, you definitely still want some gold before greening.  in a very thin deck, just 1 gold is fine.  without trashing you'll probably want 2-3.  i used to make the mistake of not getting any gold, and that's a one-way ticket to frowntown.

- if your opponent is playing a different money strategy and ignoring bakers, you'll probably want to start greening after 5-6 bakers and the amount of gold described above.


see, who said money had to be boring~?
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: trivialknot on May 14, 2017, 08:31:56 pm
Edit: Playing a Distant Lands cage match with Rabid on Sunday 18:00 UTC.
Is there a recording of this?
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: aku_chi on May 14, 2017, 11:33:50 pm
Edit: Playing a Distant Lands cage match with Rabid on Sunday 18:00 UTC.
Is there a recording of this?

Sadly, no.  I've got the game numbers.  I'm considering writing up a game report, but I need to muster up the energy.

Game #3596085
Game #3596379
Game #3596717
reroll
Game #3597007 - reroll
Game #3597061
Game #3597298
Game #3597745
Game #3598315
Game #3598655

funkdoc, I agree with everything in your post except the first sentence.  Baker is a fine supplement to a BM strategy with a solid non-draw terminal.  But Baker BM by itself is pretty weak.  By your own advice, we'd expect to see 2-3 Silver buys, 5-6 Baker buys, and 2-3 Gold buys.  More than 9 non-green buys is slowish big money.  Now, Baker BM does smooth out later turns better, so it seems reasonable against a weak Alt VP strategy.  But in a Province fight?  4 Provinces and no Duchies by turn 14 is slow.

Edit: Game report (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=17246.msg695285#msg695285) of the Distant Lands cage match.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: funkdoc on May 15, 2017, 12:04:48 am
aku_chi: without trashing you have more of a point, though even then baker has much better staying power than a lot of its competition.  strong trashing makes it quite a bit faster since you need less gold and the trashing shouldn't really hurt your ability to reach $5.  you should basically never need more than 2 silver in this deck; after the first couple shuffles it may be worth spending 2 tokens for a baker if you had to trash that turn.

also, it's not that rare for there to be another action card you can throw in with your baker stack in a money game.  this card would probably replace gold in the basic outline i described.
 that's more what i mean by it being great, not baker as a monolithic thing (though monolithic baker is still better than a lot of things we used to think were good).  that's exactly the paradigm i'm arguing against here!
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: JW on May 15, 2017, 02:06:07 am
something many of the top players have figured out by now, that took me a while to catch up on, is that most non-drawing BM is better than most terminal draw BM.  i had always thought it was the other way around, but the simulators have uncovered some pretty shocking results.  did you know that dungeon-BM beats embassy-BM if both open 4/3?  or that navigator-BM beats smithy-BM?  or that swamp hag-BM beats cultist-BM?

Your post raises a lot of interesting points, but this is probably the result of the simulator not playing well against Swamp Hag.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: funkdoc on May 15, 2017, 09:30:03 am
cultist also loses to witch-BM so i'm not so sure that's it.  breppert is the main person who's been doing all this work recently IIRC, and he could probably address this a lot better.

points matter a ton in BM, yo
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: JThorne on May 15, 2017, 09:49:31 am
Well, now I'm more confused than ever.

Opening Remake/Silver and thinning your deck dramatically while also buying Bakers so that you can ultimately play 4-5 bakers a turn and a maybe one or two treasures sure sounds a lot more like a single-Province engine than BM to me.

Or is the distinction that if you don't play your whole deck every turn, it's not an engine, period?

Or is the distinction that an engine builds exponentially, seeks to gain pile control and end the game when it's ahead, whereas a BM deck greens early and continuously, forgets about pile control and the game simply ends usually whenever the Provinces are gone?

Maybe I'm letting Awaclus get to me with his "there's nothing between" statement. Where's the line in the sand that separates BM and engine?
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: Chris is me on May 15, 2017, 10:38:34 am
The trouble is "BM" is an antiquated term that loses lots of meaning, and "engine" shouldn't mean "any strategy where you have several Action cards". I'd call such strategies "Province rushes", which encompasses both TDBM, treasure flood BM, and more nonterminal money strategies like thin Baker decks. Ultimately all of these decks are trying to lock up the majority of points before a slower engine has the chance to catch up; they're about speed and short term consistency in value. Just like any other rush.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: JW on May 16, 2017, 09:29:33 pm
In my experience, Artificer really shines in two scenarios. Number one: there are $2 cards you want a bunch of. Number two: cost reduction. I'll sometimes buy Artificer for its Peddler effect on other boards, but it has a hard time competing with other $5 options.

Number 3: boards where you can overdraw a lot. Menagerie (where it also serves as a helpful discard outlet), Scrying Pool, and City Quarter come to mind.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: LastFootnote on May 16, 2017, 09:48:31 pm
In my experience, Artificer really shines in two scenarios. Number one: there are $2 cards you want a bunch of. Number two: cost reduction. I'll sometimes buy Artificer for its Peddler effect on other boards, but it has a hard time competing with other $5 options.

Number 3: boards where you can overdraw a lot. Menagerie (where it also serves as a helpful discard outlet), Scrying Pool, and City Quarter come to mind.

Oh yeah, good call. I tend to forget about that because those decks aren't very fun for me. I always feel bad making my opponent(s) wait while I carefully plan the end of an already long turn. I usually play very sub-optimally for sake of speed in those cases.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: McGarnacle on May 16, 2017, 10:37:50 pm
In my experience, Artificer really shines in two scenarios. Number one: there are $2 cards you want a bunch of. Number two: cost reduction. I'll sometimes buy Artificer for its Peddler effect on other boards, but it has a hard time competing with other $5 options.

Number 3: boards where you can overdraw a lot. Menagerie (where it also serves as a helpful discard outlet), Scrying Pool, and City Quarter come to mind.

Artificer is WAY better than people give it credit for.
Oh yeah, good call. I tend to forget about that because those decks aren't very fun for me. I always feel bad making my opponent(s) wait while I carefully plan the end of an already long turn. I usually play very sub-optimally for sake of speed in those cases.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: Titandrake on May 20, 2017, 03:23:17 pm
something many of the top players have figured out by now, that took me a while to catch up on, is that most non-drawing BM is better than most terminal draw BM.  i had always thought it was the other way around, but the simulators have uncovered some pretty shocking results.  did you know that dungeon-BM beats embassy-BM if both open 4/3?  or that navigator-BM beats smithy-BM?  or that swamp hag-BM beats cultist-BM?

Can I see the scripts used for Dungeon vs Embassy and Navigator vs Smithy? Dungeon > Embassy, I can see it, free Silver in BM games is no joke and Dungeon filters so well. Navigator > Smithy feels very weird to me. Back when Isotropic was around, I solitaired Navigator-BM out of curiosity, and found it sometimes had dream draws where you discarding all your junk and hit 4 Provinces in 12-13 turns. But it was really inconsistent compared to Smithy-BM.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: Chris is me on May 20, 2017, 07:02:09 pm
something many of the top players have figured out by now, that took me a while to catch up on, is that most non-drawing BM is better than most terminal draw BM.  i had always thought it was the other way around, but the simulators have uncovered some pretty shocking results.  did you know that dungeon-BM beats embassy-BM if both open 4/3?  or that navigator-BM beats smithy-BM?  or that swamp hag-BM beats cultist-BM?

Can I see the scripts used for Dungeon vs Embassy and Navigator vs Smithy? Dungeon > Embassy, I can see it, free Silver in BM games is no joke and Dungeon filters so well. Navigator > Smithy feels very weird to me. Back when Isotropic was around, I solitaired Navigator-BM out of curiosity, and found it sometimes had dream draws where you discarding all your junk and hit 4 Provinces in 12-13 turns. But it was really inconsistent compared to Smithy-BM.

The key to Navigator BM is to discard, like, almost all the time. Basically unless it's a guaranteed Gold early or a Province mid, discard. It wins on cycling faster, increasing your average hand's value faster.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: schadd on May 20, 2017, 07:50:57 pm
you don't discard once you start greening though, yes?
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: GendoIkari on May 20, 2017, 07:54:40 pm
you don't discard once you start greening though, yes?

Depends on if the 5 cards are mostly green.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: schadd on May 20, 2017, 07:56:29 pm
well cycling is less good once your deck quality starts getting worse
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: GendoIkari on May 20, 2017, 08:03:58 pm
well cycling is less good once your deck quality starts getting worse

Well of course. But as your deck is more diverse and also has more green; neither auto-discard or auto-keep makes sense. If it is an average hand (so you expect the next 5 to be about the same); then err on the side of keeping; to slow the cycling of new green.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: Titandrake on May 20, 2017, 11:02:14 pm
something many of the top players have figured out by now, that took me a while to catch up on, is that most non-drawing BM is better than most terminal draw BM.  i had always thought it was the other way around, but the simulators have uncovered some pretty shocking results.  did you know that dungeon-BM beats embassy-BM if both open 4/3?  or that navigator-BM beats smithy-BM?  or that swamp hag-BM beats cultist-BM?

Can I see the scripts used for Dungeon vs Embassy and Navigator vs Smithy? Dungeon > Embassy, I can see it, free Silver in BM games is no joke and Dungeon filters so well. Navigator > Smithy feels very weird to me. Back when Isotropic was around, I solitaired Navigator-BM out of curiosity, and found it sometimes had dream draws where you discarding all your junk and hit 4 Provinces in 12-13 turns. But it was really inconsistent compared to Smithy-BM.

The key to Navigator BM is to discard, like, almost all the time. Basically unless it's a guaranteed Gold early or a Province mid, discard. It wins on cycling faster, increasing your average hand's value faster.

I thought that was what I did (when Navigator is your only action it's really easy to tell when hands are going to hit $6 or not.) It's been a while though, maybe I'm remembering wrong.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: Oyvind on June 14, 2017, 04:19:46 am
I noticed that the 5 cost cards list has been completed in the Qvist ranking matrices. Way to go, Qvist! I know you're a bit burnt out by all this, but I really do hope you will eventually complete the lists for 6+, potions and knights.

These detailed write-ups are great (and I'm a stats dude, so I may love them more than the ordinary Joe), they really are, but if you can manage a modicum of interest, thereby completing the matrices only, I'd prefer that to them not being completed, even if the great write-ups/videos are ignored.

If not, would it be OK for you to give away the stats for these remaining lists to someone else, so that they could finish the lists? Heck, even I can do it, if that's OK with you. PM me if you'd like. Maybe you only have the raw data, maybe everything but the listing is finished. Either way, I don't mind. I'll do it!
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: Qvist on June 14, 2017, 04:36:36 am
I currently have other priorities and I'm now at the point where I probably just do a small summary of the remaining lists. I apologize.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: Oyvind on June 14, 2017, 05:57:12 am
I currently have other priorities and I'm now at the point where I probably just do a small summary of the remaining lists. I apologize.

Thanks for your quick reply! That's really all we can ask for. There's no need for you to apologize. You've done this community so many favors, and we all know that priorities may change throughout life. I hope you're well, and I'm really looking forward to the small summaries (simple rankings without ratings will do). Your (user)name will always be linked to ranking of Dominion cards. I hope that someone picks up where you leave off, but I'm sure these lists will always be referred to as Qvist rankings, whoever does them in the future.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: Omastar68 on June 14, 2017, 12:41:02 pm
I noticed that the 5 cost cards list has been completed in the Qvist ranking matrices. Way to go, Qvist! I know you're a bit burnt out by all this, but I really do hope you will eventually complete the lists for 6+, potions and knights.

I'm prepared to argue Knights:) Obviously i agree Dame Josephine, but really skeptical about Sir Vander especially. They're Knights...so eiither they're gonna get trashed, or you're winning(pretty much.) Getting that Gold is nice, earlier the better since Vander for their Knght is always a good trade really.

Not impressed w/ Sylvia, Natalie is awesome on lots of boards.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: werothegreat on June 14, 2017, 05:04:45 pm
Someone has updated the 5's for 2016 on the wiki.  Where are they getting that information?
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: trivialknot on June 14, 2017, 05:05:49 pm
I'm not sure I should trust the updated rankings on the Wiki, because it was filled out by an anonymous person, and the top 10 rankings are identical to the old rankings.  Could someone verify that they are correct?
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: Qvist on June 14, 2017, 05:07:04 pm
Someone has updated the 5's for 2016 on the wiki.  Where are they getting that information?

Maybe they hacked my computer? But they didn't do it correctly because the order is wrong.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: Oyvind on June 14, 2017, 06:14:17 pm
Someone has updated the 5's for 2016 on the wiki.  Where are they getting that information?

Maybe they hacked my computer? But they didn't do it correctly because the order is wrong.

So, we should just remove the top ten again, then? Is there anything holding us back?
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: allanfieldhouse on June 16, 2017, 01:30:49 pm
I currently have other priorities and I'm now at the point where I probably just do a small summary of the remaining lists. I apologize.

Yay! Just post the lists like you have been, but skip the video and the stats. Just post 10 cards and their ranking. Let everyone discuss, and then post another 10.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: werothegreat on June 16, 2017, 03:55:01 pm
I currently have other priorities and I'm now at the point where I probably just do a small summary of the remaining lists. I apologize.

Yay! Just post the lists like you have been, but skip the video and the stats. Just post 10 cards and their ranking. Let everyone discuss, and then post another 10.

It's just 10 more to go for the 5's anyway.  And the 6+'s shouldn't take too long.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: Oyvind on June 17, 2017, 03:41:26 am
I currently have other priorities and I'm now at the point where I probably just do a small summary of the remaining lists. I apologize.

Yay! Just post the lists like you have been, but skip the video and the stats. Just post 10 cards and their ranking. Let everyone discuss, and then post another 10.

It's just 10 more to go for the 5's anyway.  And the 6+'s shouldn't take too long.

And after that, the Potions and the Knights are the only lists not updated. That's just 20 more cards.

As I've already written: If you just PM me the finished yet unpublished lists, or even just the raw data, if that's all you have, I'd put them up here in a heartbeat, and I'd also update the http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/List_of_Cards_by_Qvist_Rankings. Case closed! :-)
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: Qvist on June 29, 2017, 09:28:55 am
Okay, I won't finish this normally anymore. Sorry.

Top 10 here: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16854.msg671125#msg671125
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: JKRich on June 29, 2017, 09:43:22 am
With all the work you've put in to help this community over the years, no apology ever needed from you, and the biggest of thanks comes your way from me, certainly to be +1'ed by many! ;D ;D ;D 8)
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: werothegreat on June 29, 2017, 10:57:24 am
So Wharf is the highest it has ever been, and Rebuild has sunk slightly.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: Beyond Awesome on June 29, 2017, 03:28:08 pm
JD and Upgrade should be above Torture. Rebuild could drop another spot or more.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: schadd on June 29, 2017, 04:57:42 pm
Just to finish this off:

10. ▲1 Upgrade
9. ▲1 Minion
8. ▼1 Junk Dealer
7. ▲2 Torturer
6. ▼4 Rebuild
5. =0 Governor
4. ▲2 Witch
3. =0 Cultist
2. ▲2 Wharf
1. =0 Mountebank
:)
:(
>:(
:|
:D
:|
:)
:|
:)
:|
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: Beyond Awesome on June 30, 2017, 12:20:21 am
Anyway, I want to thank qvist for putting the rankings up. Also, I feel Wharf and cultist should switch places.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: funkdoc on June 30, 2017, 01:21:04 am
eh, i've been finding more and more that cultist is overrated.  empires added at least a couple significant counters to it (city quarter & advance), but it likely never was as good as we had thought.  witch-BM beats cultist-BM, for instance.

also, minion & torturer should absolutely be replaced with butcher & groundskeeper
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: JW on June 30, 2017, 02:56:58 am
eh, i've been finding more and more that cultist is overrated.  empires added at least a couple significant counters to it (city quarter & advance)

And Sacrifice, Temple, and Donate.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: McGarnacle on June 30, 2017, 07:46:04 am
I guess I'm surprised to see Upgrade and Junk Dealer so high.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: Jacob marley on June 30, 2017, 03:30:00 pm
eh, i've been finding more and more that cultist is overrated.  empires added at least a couple significant counters to it (city quarter & advance), but it likely never was as good as we had thought.  witch-BM beats cultist-BM, for instance.

also, minion & torturer should absolutely be replaced with butcher & groundskeeper

Cultist without good thinning just isn't reliable enough, it can definitely trade places with wharf.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: funkdoc on June 30, 2017, 05:11:44 pm
there's more good thinning than ever, though. that's part of the issue.  i mean, empires gave us arguably the 3rd best trasher in the game...

basically, a bunch of boards that used to be cultist-BM have now become "play cultists then clean up and transition to an engine".  in those situations, winning the ruins split 6-4 doesn't matter nearly as much as it does with a purely money deck.  even a 7-3 advantage is easy to screw up if you don't follow up on it correctly.

so cultist still matters on these kinds of boards, but it doesn't singlehandedly dominate the game as often as it used to.  that and rebuild are both victims of the gradual engine creep with each new set released, and both should be lower than they are now.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: scotty2hotty on July 04, 2017, 05:13:49 pm
Okay, I won't finish this normally anymore. Sorry.

Top 10 here: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16854.msg671125#msg671125

No need to apologize thanks for all the work you've put into these rankings!
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: Omastar68 on September 05, 2017, 12:43:31 pm
I was thinking about how bad Villa can be w/ little or no draw when there's another village, and the same think applied to Festival in a game I had where Courtyard(and Madman...sorta) was the only draw(don't remember details.) I got Festival over Mining Village twice, once was in the opening, pretty weak 5s.

Anyways, since Festival is just 1 coin more than Villa and doesn't have that killer effect, shouldn't it be lower? It can pretty easily be a stop card of sorts. Took me a while to think of this, earlier I actually felt like it was low.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: LastFootnote on September 05, 2017, 01:53:24 pm
I was thinking about how bad Villa can be w/ little or no draw when there's another village, and the same think applied to Festival in a game I had where Courtyard(and Madman...sorta) was the only draw(don't remember details.) I got Festival over Mining Village twice, once was in the opening, pretty weak 5s.

Anyways, since Festival is just 1 coin more than Villa and doesn't have that killer effect, shouldn't it be lower? It can pretty easily be a stop card of sorts. Took me a while to think of this, earlier I actually felt like it was low.

"Just $1 more" is huge, though.

It's true that Festival isn't a super awesome, must-buy $5 card. But it's too strong to cost $4.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: Omastar68 on September 05, 2017, 02:03:06 pm
I was thinking about how bad Villa can be w/ little or no draw when there's another village, and the same think applied to Festival in a game I had where Courtyard(and Madman...sorta) was the only draw(don't remember details.) I got Festival over Mining Village twice, once was in the opening, pretty weak 5s.

Anyways, since Festival is just 1 coin more than Villa and doesn't have that killer effect, shouldn't it be lower? It can pretty easily be a stop card of sorts. Took me a while to think of this, earlier I actually felt like it was low.

"Just $1 more" is huge, though.

It's true that Festival isn't a super awesome, must-buy $5 card. But it's too strong to cost $4.

I wasn't wondering about that, but I think I agree, 4 would make it very strong for the price.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: GendoIkari on September 05, 2017, 02:10:52 pm
"Just $1 more" is huge, though.


Yeah. My favorite example of this is Lighthouse (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Lighthouse) vs Merchant Ship (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Merchant_Ship). In order to go from giving (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/f/f7/Coin1.png/16px-Coin1.png) now and next turn to giving (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/3/3d/Coin2.png/16px-Coin2.png) now and next turn, you need to lose the +1 action, lose the attack protection, and increase your price from (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/3/3d/Coin2.png/16px-Coin2.png) to (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/7/7d/Coin5.png/16px-Coin5.png).
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: werothegreat on September 05, 2017, 03:49:53 pm
"Just $1 more" is huge, though.


Yeah. My favorite example of this is Lighthouse (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Lighthouse) vs Merchant Ship (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Merchant_Ship). In order to go from giving (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/f/f7/Coin1.png/16px-Coin1.png) now and next turn to giving (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/3/3d/Coin2.png/16px-Coin2.png) now and next turn, you need to lose the +1 action, lose the attack protection, and increase your price from (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/3/3d/Coin2.png/16px-Coin2.png) to (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/7/7d/Coin5.png/16px-Coin5.png).

It's also interesting how terminality changes the value of certain mechanics.  There's a very clear progression (minus some abilities that don't necessarily even always see use) from Ruined Library to Moat to Smithy to Hunting Grounds to (sort of) Royal Blacksmith.  Adding an extra +1 card to a terminal Action generally means an increase in cost of (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/3/3d/Coin2.png/16px-Coin2.png).  But then you look at Pearl Diver, the closest thing we'll ever get to a vanilla cantrip - removing a minor ability and adding +1 Card increases its cost by (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/3/32/Coin3.png/16px-Coin3.png).  Drawing an extra card non-terminally is worth a lot more than drawing an extra card terminally.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: Awaclus on September 05, 2017, 04:53:17 pm
Drawing an extra card non-terminally is worth a lot more than drawing an extra card terminally.

Which is why Hunting Grounds is such an amazing engine card.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: Beyond Awesome on September 05, 2017, 04:59:04 pm
"Just $1 more" is huge, though.


Yeah. My favorite example of this is Lighthouse (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Lighthouse) vs Merchant Ship (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Merchant_Ship). In order to go from giving (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/f/f7/Coin1.png/16px-Coin1.png) now and next turn to giving (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/3/3d/Coin2.png/16px-Coin2.png) now and next turn, you need to lose the +1 action, lose the attack protection, and increase your price from (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/3/3d/Coin2.png/16px-Coin2.png) to (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/7/7d/Coin5.png/16px-Coin5.png).

Merchant Ship is a weak card though.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: werothegreat on September 05, 2017, 05:06:55 pm
So a hypothetical "Super-Lab" (+3 Cards, +1 Action) would probably have to cost (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/b/bc/Coin7.png/16px-Coin7.png).
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: Donald X. on September 05, 2017, 05:08:08 pm
So a hypothetical "Super-Lab" (+3 Cards, +1 Action) would probably have to cost (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/b/bc/Coin7.png/16px-Coin7.png).
I think that would still have to come with a terminal $2 you didn't really want.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: werothegreat on September 05, 2017, 06:46:33 pm
So a hypothetical "Super-Lab" (+3 Cards, +1 Action) would probably have to cost (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/b/bc/Coin7.png/16px-Coin7.png).
I think that would still have to come with a terminal $2 you didn't really want.

When you gain this, gain a Duchess Super-Scientist.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: Donald X. on September 05, 2017, 06:56:19 pm
So a hypothetical "Super-Lab" (+3 Cards, +1 Action) would probably have to cost (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/b/bc/Coin7.png/16px-Coin7.png).
I think that would still have to come with a terminal $2 you didn't really want.

When you gain this, gain a Duchess Super-Scientist.
It's Stonemason dude. I have explained the joke etc.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: Omastar68 on September 06, 2017, 11:47:32 am
So a hypothetical "Super-Lab" (+3 Cards, +1 Action) would probably have to cost (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/b/bc/Coin7.png/16px-Coin7.png).

"Super Lab" is often just Menagerie(pretty common to have a good way to guarantee the full effect,) and that's 3. So 7 might not be a card that's +3 cards and 1 action. Testing cards for different prices must have been very interesting.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: Commodore Chuckles on September 06, 2017, 07:46:26 pm
So a hypothetical "Super-Lab" (+3 Cards, +1 Action) would probably have to cost (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/b/bc/Coin7.png/16px-Coin7.png).

"Super Lab" is often just Menagerie(pretty common to have a good way to guarantee the full effect,) and that's 3. So 7 might not be a card that's +3 cards and 1 action. Testing cards for different prices must have been very interesting.
Menagerie is cheap because it gets worse as your hand gets bigger. If I'm doing the math right, Super Lab would actually be 8 or 9 (the linear progression would be 2->5->8 or 1->5->9, depending on how much you think a vanilla cantrip would cost.)
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: Donald X. on September 06, 2017, 08:20:44 pm
The math cannot be done. Many people have tried to come up with formulas for costs for sets of +'s over the years, and it simply doesn't work.

Super Lab was in Empires at the beginning (eventually turning into City Quarter). The initial guess I had for costing it was 10D. I was off.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: werothegreat on September 06, 2017, 08:38:51 pm
So a hypothetical "Super-Lab" (+3 Cards, +1 Action) would probably have to cost (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/b/bc/Coin7.png/16px-Coin7.png).

"Super Lab" is often just Menagerie(pretty common to have a good way to guarantee the full effect,) and that's 3. So 7 might not be a card that's +3 cards and 1 action. Testing cards for different prices must have been very interesting.
Menagerie is cheap because it gets worse as your hand gets bigger. If I'm doing the math right, Super Lab would actually be 8 or 9 (the linear progression would be 2->5->8 or 1->5->9, depending on how much you think a vanilla cantrip would cost.)

Yeah, I just can't add, apparently.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: LastFootnote on September 06, 2017, 08:54:43 pm
The math cannot be done. Many people have tried to come up with formulas for costs for sets of +'s over the years, and it simply doesn't work.

Super Lab was in Empires at the beginning (eventually turning into City Quarter). The initial guess I had for costing it was 10D. I was off.

To be fair, I think that was during the days where Debt cards cost $0 and gave you the debt on-gain. I think the issue was the combination of super-Lab and, like, remodels and workshops and things.

It was also clearly before the realization of, things that just cost debt shouldn't be things you want early.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: AJD on September 07, 2017, 03:24:21 pm
It was also clearly before the realization of, things that just cost debt shouldn't be things you want early.

...Not counting Engineer, I guess?

And actually Overlord's not bad as an opener sometimes too.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: LastFootnote on September 07, 2017, 03:26:40 pm
It was also clearly before the realization of, things that just cost debt shouldn't be things you want early.

...Not counting Engineer, I guess?

And actually Overlord's not bad as an opener sometimes too.

Engineer has a Debt cost just so it can't gain itself. Otherwise you could artificially run down the pile; trash your Engineer to gain another one.

Overlord just somehow worked out costing 8 debt! *shrug*
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
Post by: Cave-o-sapien on September 07, 2017, 07:43:01 pm
It was also clearly before the realization of, things that just cost debt shouldn't be things you want early.

...Not counting Engineer, I guess?

And actually Overlord's not bad as an opener sometimes too.

e.g. 5/2 with no good 2-cost card.