(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/b/b7/Chancellor.jpg/200px-Chancellor.jpg) | #49 =0 Chancellor (Base) Weighted Average: 5.3% ▼3.2pp / Unweighted Average: 5.5% / Median: 2.1% ▼0.9pp / Standard Deviation: 8.2% Chancellor stays last since nearly the beginning. It even lost points and its deviation is the lowest of this whole list, so there's no doubt. It was voted last 23 times. |
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/9/95/Great_Hall.jpg/200px-Great_Hall.jpg) | #48 =0 Great Hall (Intrigue) Weighted Average: 8.5% ▼5.6pp / Unweighted Average: 8.8% / Median: 4.8% ▼5.0pp / Standard Deviation: 9.9% Great Hall lost ranks every year in the past, but stayed second to last this time. It still lost quite a lot in its average and has quite a low deviation. It was voted last 9 times. |
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/d/d6/Woodcutter.jpg/200px-Woodcutter.jpg) | #47 =0 Woodcutter (Base) Weighted Average: 11.8% ▼3.6pp / Unweighted Average: 11.7% / Median: 8.3% ▼2.2pp / Standard Deviation: 10.4% Woodcutter fits into the same scheme, it stays on the same rank and lost in its average. It was voted last 5 times. |
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/5/55/Fortune_Teller.jpg/200px-Fortune_Teller.jpg) | #46 =0 Fortune Teller (Cornucopia) Weighted Average: 14.8% ▼1.7pp / Unweighted Average: 15.1% / Median: 10.4% ▼1.5pp / Standard Deviation: 14.5% And I can only repeat myself. Fortune Teller stays where it was and lost a bit in its average. It has 7 last ranks. |
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/0/09/Masterpiece.jpg/200px-Masterpiece.jpg) | #45 ▼1 Masterpiece (Guilds) Weighted Average: 20.6% ▼3.5pp / Unweighted Average: 22.6% / Median: 16.7% ▼4.7pp / Standard Deviation: 21.2% Masterpiece is next with a lead of nearly 6pp over Fortune Teller. After losing quite a lot last year, it lost again one more rank. It has quite a high deviation for such a low ranked card. It was voted last twice. |
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/7/70/Sage.jpg/200px-Sage.jpg) | #44 ▼2 Sage (Dark Ages) Weighted Average: 23.7% ▼1.9pp / Unweighted Average: 26.9% / Median: 21.4% ▼2.8pp / Standard Deviation: 20.3% Losing consistently ranks the last years, Sage loses again 2 ranks. It is 3 ranks higher in the unweighted ranking, so newer players overvalue it. It was voted last once. |
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/5/50/Workshop.jpg/200px-Workshop.jpg) | #43 ▼3 Workshop (Base) Weighted Average: 24.0% ▼3.2pp / Unweighted Average: 24.4% / Median: 20.8% ▼3.0pp / Standard Deviation: 15.9% After rising 5 ranks last year, Workshop falls back down 3 ranks. In the unweighted ranking it's even one more rank lower. It's at least the first card with no vote on the last rank. |
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/e/e4/Banquet.jpg/320px-Banquet.jpg) | #42 Banquet (Empires) Weighted Average: 24.3% / Unweighted Average: 24.9% / Median: 16.7% / Standard Deviation: 21.6% Here's the first new card in this list. Banquet has a pretty low median compared to its average and the highest deviation we have seen so far in this list. It was voted last 3 times. It is one rank lower in the unweighted ranking. |
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/a/a7/Trade_Route.jpg/200px-Trade_Route.jpg) | #41 ▲3 Trade Route (Prosperity) Weighted Average: 24.3% ▲3.3pp / Unweighted Average: 26.1% / Median: 22.9% ▲3.8pp / Standard Deviation: 18.6% Trade Route has a small lead over Banquet of 0.04pp. It's the first card which won ranks, 3 ranks to be exact. It is one rank lower in the unweighted ranking. |
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/f/fa/Caravan_Guard.jpg/200px-Caravan_Guard.jpg) | #40 ▼2 Caravan Guard (Adventures) Weighted Average: 25.5% ▼3.8pp / Unweighted Average: 27.5% / Median: 25.0% ▼1.2pp / Standard Deviation: 17.5% Caravan Guard lost 2 ranks, but is one rank higher in the unweighted ranking. |
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/f/f7/Develop.jpg/200px-Develop.jpg) | #39 ▲3 Develop (Hinterlands) Weighted Average: 28.5% ▲3.6pp / Unweighted Average: 27.0% / Median: 23.9% ▲4.7pp / Standard Deviation: 20.2% 3pp better than Caravan Guard is Develop. It was last in the first edition, but rises consistently, just like last year, it is 3 ranks better. It is still one rank lower in the unweighted ranking. |
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/c/c2/Tunnel.jpg/200px-Tunnel.jpg) | #38 ▼1 Tunnel (Hinterlands) Weighted Average: 29.7% ▼3.8pp / Unweighted Average: 36.5% / Median: 33.3% ▼3.1pp / Standard Deviation: 22.2% Just like in the last years, Tunnel loses again, this time one rank. It is still 3 ranks higher in the unweighted ranking, but was also voted last once. |
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/1/11/Loan.jpg/200px-Loan.jpg) | #37 ▲3 Loan (Prosperity) Weighted Average: 30.3% ▲3.9pp / Unweighted Average: 29.1% / Median: 29.2% ▲5.4pp / Standard Deviation: 18.9% Loan was better 2 ranks last year, this year 3 more ranks. It is one rank lower in the unweighted ranking and was voted last once. |
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/b/b4/Storeroom.jpg/200px-Storeroom.jpg) | #36 ▼5 Storeroom (Dark Ages) Weighted Average: 34.9% ▼6.3pp / Unweighted Average: 37.6% / Median: 33.3% ▼11.4pp / Standard Deviation: 18.7% Storeroom has a lead over Loan of over 4.5pp but is a loser in this list. It lost 5 ranks and over 6pp. But it is still 4 ranks higher in the unweighted ranking. |
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/f/fc/Oasis.jpg/200px-Oasis.jpg) | #35 ▼2 Oasis (Hinterlands) Weighted Average: 34.9% ▼5.2pp / Unweighted Average: 38.4% / Median: 38.1% ▼1.3pp / Standard Deviation: 16.7% Oasis has a small lead over Storeroom of 0.05pp. Just like last year it lost again 2 ranks and quite a significant amount in its average. It also is still 4 ranks higher in the unweighted ranking. |
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/9/97/Oracle.jpg/200px-Oracle.jpg) | #34 ▼2 Oracle (Hinterlands) Weighted Average: 36.2% ▼4.3pp / Unweighted Average: 37.4% / Median: 36.4% ▼1.7pp / Standard Deviation: 18.2% Oracle keeps losing ranks, this year 2 more ranks. It is one rank higher in the unweighted ranking. |
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/0/05/Smugglers.jpg/200px-Smugglers.jpg) | #33 ▲2 Smugglers (Seaside) Weighted Average: 36.3% ▼1.0pp / Unweighted Average: 35.2% / Median: 33.3% =0pp / Standard Deviation: 17.2% And Smugglers keeps on climbing, this year 2 more ranks. It has a small lead over Oracle of 0.04pp. It is 3 ranks lower in the unweighted ranking. |
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/3/37/Farmers%27_Market.jpg/200px-Farmers%27_Market.jpg) | #32 Farmers' Market (Empires) Weighted Average: 36.7% / Unweighted Average: 37.0% / Median: 33.3% / Standard Deviation: 19.3% Here is the second Empires card. It is 2 ranks lower in the unweighted ranking. |
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/8/8e/Shanty_Town.jpg/200px-Shanty_Town.jpg) | #31 ▲2 Shanty Town (Intrigue) Weighted Average: 38.9% ▼0.1pp / Unweighted Average: 36.0% / Median: 37.5% ▼4.9pp / Standard Deviation: 17.0% Shanty Town has the same average, but still is 2 ranks higher and keeps on placing higher. It is 4 ranks lower in the unweighted ranking. |
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/7/7c/Chariot_Race.jpg/200px-Chariot_Race.jpg) | #30 Chariot Race (Empires) Weighted Average: 40.6% / Unweighted Average: 40.5% / Median: 39.6% / Standard Deviation: 17.1% We're starting part 3 with another new card. |
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/e/e9/Gladiator.jpg/200px-Gladiator.jpg) | #29 Gladiator (Empires) Weighted Average: 41.1% / Unweighted Average: 41.0% / Median: 35.9% / Standard Deviation: 22.7% Gladiator is the second new Empires card in a row. It has a really high deviation. |
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/b/b2/Doctor.jpg/200px-Doctor.jpg) | #28 ▼2 Doctor (Guilds) Weighted Average: 42.2% ▼2.2pp / Unweighted Average: 46.0% / Median: 45.3% ▲2.9pp / Standard Deviation: 22.8% Doctor loses 2 ranks and has a high deviation as well. It is one rank higher in the unweighted list. |
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/2/25/Catapult.jpg/200px-Catapult.jpg) | #27 Catapult (Empires) Weighted Average: 46.2% / Unweighted Average: 48.4% / Median: 50.0% / Standard Deviation: 25.6% Catapult is the third new Empires card within 4 cards. It has the highest deviation in this list as it was voted first and last each once. It is 2 ranks higher in the unweighted ranking. It has quite a big lead over Doctor of around 4pp. |
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/f/f7/Wishing_Well.jpg/200px-Wishing_Well.jpg) | #26 =0 Wishing Well (Intrigue) Weighted Average: 47.1% ▲3.0pp / Unweighted Average: 45.5% / Median: 45.8% ▲6.8pp / Standard Deviation: 18.1% After winning quite a lot of ranks last year, Wishin Well stays the same this year, but is still quite a bit better average wise. It is 2 ranks lower in the unweighted ranking. |
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/e/e3/Expedition.jpg/320px-Expedition.jpg) | #25 ▼2 Expedition (Adventures) Weighted Average: 47.9% ▲0.2pp / Unweighted Average: 49.2% / Median: 50.0% ▲3.7pp / Standard Deviation: 22.3% Expedition is exactly in the middle in this list but there are still 2 cards with less than 50% to come. It loses 2 ranks but is 2 ranks higher in the unweighted ranking. It has a high deviation. |
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/2/2c/Plan.jpg/320px-Plan.jpg) | #24 ▲8 Plan (Adventures) Weighted Average: 48.1% ▲11.1pp / Unweighted Average: 48.8% / Median: 45.8% ▲10.1pp / Standard Deviation: 22.6% Plan is the winner in this list. It's 8 ranks and over 11pp better. It has a high deviation as well. |
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/e/e1/Guide.jpg/200px-Guide.jpg) | #23 ▼6 Guide (Adventures) Weighted Average: 48.9% ▼7.1pp / Unweighted Average: 48.3% / Median: 52.1% ▼5.8pp / Standard Deviation: 20.3% Guide is the third Adventures card in a row, but quite a loser. It lost 6 ranks and 7pp. It is 3 ranks lower in the unweighted list. |
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/b/bb/Enchantress.jpg/200px-Enchantress.jpg) | #22 Enchantress (Empires) Weighted Average: 52.7% / Unweighted Average: 52.6% / Median: 52.1% / Standard Deviation: 19.9% Enchantress is the fourth Empires card in this part and the also the best one in this whole list, the only one beating 50% just barely. It has a lead of nearly 4pp over Guide. It is one rank higher in the unweighted ranking. |
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/f/f1/Market_Square.jpg/200px-Market_Square.jpg) | #21 ▼1 Market Square (Dark Ages) Weighted Average: 56.3% ▲5.0pp / Unweighted Average: 58.3% / Median: 58.3% ▲3.5pp / Standard Deviation: 17.8% Market Square is slowly losing ranks year after year, this year one more rank, but what's significant is that it won 5pp. It is 3 ranks higher in the unweighted ranking. |
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/c/c6/Lookout.jpg/200px-Lookout.jpg) | #20 ▲3 Lookout (Seaside) Weighted Average: 56.3% ▲11.3pp / Unweighted Average: 52.2% / Median: 56.3% ▲11.1pp / Standard Deviation: 21.6% After being better 5 ranks last year, Lookout climbed 3 more ranks, but also over 11pp, this is a lot. It has a small lead over Market Square of 0.02pp. It is 2 ranks lower in the unweighted ranking. |
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/6/6d/Warehouse.jpg/200px-Warehouse.jpg) | #19 ▼4 Warehouse (Seaside) Weighted Average: 56.4% ▼2.9pp / Unweighted Average: 57.4% / Median: 58.3% ▼3.3pp / Standard Deviation: 17.8% Warehouse was #6 once, but it continues to lose ranks, this year even 4 ranks. It has a small lead over Lookout as well, only 0.01pp, so those last 3 cards are very close together. |
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/1/1e/Dungeon.jpg/200px-Dungeon.jpg) | #18 =0 Dungeon (Adventures) Weighted Average: 57.3% ▲3.8pp / Unweighted Average: 56.7% / Median: 58.3% ▼1.2pp / Standard Deviation: 16.9% Dungeon is better than last year, but still stays on the same rank. It is 2 ranks lower in the unweighted ranking. |
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/8/8d/Scheme.jpg/200px-Scheme.jpg) | #17 =0 Scheme (Hinterlands) Weighted Average: 58.4% ▲4.5pp / Unweighted Average: 62.7% / Median: 64.6% ▲5.1pp / Standard Deviation: 16.7% Just like Dungeon, Scheme has quite a bit better average, but still stays on the same rank. It is 3 ranks better in the unweighted ranking, so it is overrated by weaker players. |
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/5/5a/Village.jpg/200px-Village.jpg) | #16 ▲3 Village (Base) Weighted Average: 61.3% ▲9.6pp / Unweighted Average: 60.6% / Median: 61.7% ▲6.4pp / Standard Deviation: 16.9% Village is nearly 10pp and 3 ranks better. It is one rank lower in the unweighted ranking. |
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/9/90/Bonfire.jpg/320px-Bonfire.jpg) | #15 ▲6 Bonfire (Adventures) Weighted Average: 63.7% ▲13.3pp / Unweighted Average: 61.1% / Median: 68.8% ▲21.2pp / Standard Deviation: 24.9% Bonfire is another big winner in this list. It is 6 ranks and over 13pp better. The median is even over 20pp better. It has the second highest deviation in this list however. It is one rank lower in the unweighted ranking. |
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/c/c2/Watchtower.jpg/200px-Watchtower.jpg) | #14 ▼3 Watchtower (Prosperity) Weighted Average: 64.5% ▼5.1pp / Unweighted Average: 64.7% / Median: 70.8 ▲0.1pp / Standard Deviation: 23.6% Watchtower loses 3 ranks and 5pp, but has on the other side even 3 votes on the first rank. That's why it has a high deviation as well. It is voted one rank higher in the unweighted ranking. |
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/f/fa/Black_Market.jpg/200px-Black_Market.jpg) | #13 =0 Black Market (Promo) Weighted Average: 67.6% ▲1.2pp / Unweighted Average: 62.6% / Median: 69.1% ▲0.8pp / Standard Deviation: 22.6% After rising a lot of ranks the last 2 years, Black Market's stats didn't change a lot, it has the same rank and around the same average. It is the third card in a row with a high deviation. It is voted 2 ranks lower in the unweighted ranking. |
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/8/8e/Hermit.jpg/200px-Hermit.jpg) | #12 =0 Hermit (Dark Ages) Weighted Average: 71.3% ▲1.8pp / Unweighted Average: 70.1% / Median: 72.9% ▲1.5pp / Standard Deviation: 18.1% Hermit stays also on the same rank and has quite a solid lead of nearly 4pp over Black Market. |
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/5/50/Amulet.jpg/200px-Amulet.jpg) | #11 ▼1 Amulet (Adventures) Weighted Average: 73.3% ▲2.2pp / Unweighted Average: 72.6% / Median: 75.0% ▲1.2pp / Standard Deviation: 16.4% Amulet lost one rank, but has a better average. |
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/e/e6/Forager.jpg/200px-Forager.jpg) | #10 ▼3 Forager (Dark Ages) Weighted Average: 78.4% ▼1.7pp / Unweighted Average: 77.9% / Median: 79.2% ▼4.1pp / Standard Deviation: 14.3% Forager has a solid lead over Amulet of over 5pp. It lost 3 ranks and a bit in its average. It was voted first once. It has the lowest deviation since the bottom 3. It is 2 ranks higher in the unweighted ranking. |
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/7/71/Menagerie.jpg/200px-Menagerie.jpg) | #9 =0 Menagerie (Cornucopia) Weighted Average: 78.5% ▲0.4pp / Unweighted Average: 76.3% / Median: 79.2% ▼4.1pp / Standard Deviation: 16.1% Menagerie has a small lead over Forager of 0.07pp. It has the same rank and basically the same average. It is one rank lower in the unweighted ranking. |
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/e/ec/Gear.jpg/200px-Gear.jpg) | #8 ▲6 Gear (Adventures) Weighted Average: 79.6% ▲15.9pp / Unweighted Average: 77.3% / Median: 83.3% ▲14.2pp / Standard Deviation: 17.5% Gear won 6 ranks and over 15pp and is now in the Top 10. It was voted first once. It is one rank lower in the unweighted ranking. |
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/d/d9/Ferry.jpg/320px-Ferry.jpg) | #7 ▲1 Ferry (Adventures) Weighted Average: 80.6% ▲0.8pp / Unweighted Average: 79.3% / Median: 85.7% ▲2.4pp / Standard Deviation: 20.9% Ferry climbed one rank and a little bit in its average. It was voted first 4 times. |
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/e/e7/Swindler.jpg/200px-Swindler.jpg) | #6 =0 Swindler (Intrigue) Weighted Average: 82.3% ▲1.3pp / Unweighted Average: 82.9% / Median: 83.3% =0pp / Standard Deviation: 9.9% Swindler stays consistently over the years. It didn't change in rank and is only slightly better in its average. It is one rank better in the unweighted ranking. It has a pretty low deviation. It was voted first once. |
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/7/74/Urchin.jpg/200px-Urchin.jpg) | #5 ▼2 Urchin (Dark Ages) Weighted Average: 85.2% ▼1.2pp / Unweighted Average: 80.8% / Median: 88.1% ▲1.3pp / Standard Deviation: 19.1% After being a big winner last year, Urchin lost 2 ranks again. It is one more rank lower in the unweighted list. It was voted first once. |
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/3/3b/Fishing_Village.jpg/200px-Fishing_Village.jpg) | #4 ▲1 Fishing Village (Seaside) Weighted Average: 87.0% ▲1.7pp / Unweighted Average: 86.9% / Median: 89.6% ▲1.5pp / Standard Deviation: 9.2% Fishing Village is one rank better and therefore continues to stay in the Top 5. It was voted first 5 times. It has the second lowest deviation in this list. In the unweighted ranking it is one rank higher. |
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/8/88/Steward.jpg/200px-Steward.jpg) | #3 ▲1 Steward (Intrigue) Weighted Average: 88.2% ▲1.9pp / Unweighted Average: 86.7% / Median: 91.7% ▲3.6pp / Standard Deviation: 11.3% Steward rises one rank and is higher than ever before. It is still one rank lower in the unweighted ranking. It was voted first once. |
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/0/0e/Masquerade.jpg/200px-Masquerade.jpg) | #2 =0 Masquerade (Intrigue) Weighted Average: 92.8% ▲0.9pp / Unweighted Average: 91.4% / Median: 95.8% ▼1.2pp / Standard Deviation: 9.9% Masquerade is just like nearly always second again. It has the third lowest deviation in this list. It was voted first 14 times. |
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/7/74/Ambassador.jpg/200px-Ambassador.jpg) | #1 =0 Ambassador (Seaside) Weighted Average: 95.5% ▲1.3pp / Unweighted Average: 94.7% / Median: 97.9% ▲0.9pp / Standard Deviation: 13.6% And Ambassador wins again this list. It was voted first 24 times. |
After all the catapult hate I'm surprised we haven't seen it yet.It's way worse than Farmer's Market.
Thats not true.After all the catapult hate I'm surprised we haven't seen it yet.It's way worse than Farmer's Market.
Yeah not way worse, I just really like Farmer's Market.Thats not true.After all the catapult hate I'm surprised we haven't seen it yet.It's way worse than Farmer's Market.
It is closer to forager than farmer's market.
Workshop is still horribly underrated, even worse than last time. Do most people seriously think that it's worse than Develop or Loan?
Is Banquet + Counting House a thing?I have played that + forum and i won but i am not really sure without the forum it will work.
Can somebody explain why Farmer's Market is good? I'm in the same camp as Qvist and markusin. I haven't played with it much, but it hasn't impressed me at all.
Loan is not a top 10 card. That's absurd. There are a lot of really good $3 cards.
The Farming Village meme died a few months ago, Awaclus had to find a new one to discredit his Dominion advice.
Loan is like 30 ranks too low.
costs only €3Is €3 worth more or less than a Potion?
costs only €3Is €3 worth more or less than a Potion?
Loan does effectively draw a card - the one that it trashes. It's also non-terminal and gives you a coin. Stats-wise, it's exactly a Junk Dealer. Trashing Estates is not that much more important than trashing Coppers either, mostly it matters in the early game.
Loan does effectively draw a card - the one that it trashes. It's also non-terminal and gives you a coin. Stats-wise, it's exactly a Junk Dealer. Trashing Estates is not that much more important than trashing Coppers either, mostly it matters in the early game.
You were almost correct until this part. Trashing Estates is WAY more important than trashing Coppers and why am I even responding to your troll post? Man.
Trashing Estates is not that much more important than trashing Coppers either, mostly it matters in the early game.Whatever matters in the early game, implicitly matters a lot in the rest of the game, because the advantage cascades from there.
If both Forager and Loan are present, the odds are that you should be having at least one copy of both.
If both Forager and Loan are present, the odds are that you should be having at least one copy of both.
That's only because you can eventually Forage the Loan and get more (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/6/6d/Coin.png/16px-Coin.png) out of it.
If both Forager and Loan are present, the odds are that you should be having at least one copy of both.
That's only because you can eventually Forage the Loan and get more (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/6/6d/Coin.png/16px-Coin.png) out of it.
No, it's only because Loan can't trash Estates and ideally you want to trash them too.
If both Forager and Loan are present, the odds are that you should be having at least one copy of both.
That's only because you can eventually Forage the Loan and get more (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/6/6d/Coin.png/16px-Coin.png) out of it.
No, it's only because Loan can't trash Estates and ideally you want to trash them too.
(https://i.imgflip.com/1fu38z.jpg)
Does anybody have data on Loan gain rate for top players? Loan is very good when:First point is always except in slogs (though sometimes the opportunity cost is not worth it.What is the likelihood that those three conditions are met in a random kingdom with Loan? 30%? Loan is good enough in these situations that it certainly avoids a bottom 10 spot. But better than Forager? A great trasher that is useful in 70+% games? No way.
- You want to trash Coppers.
- You don't need treasures for economy (or your economy comes from a strong Silver gainer like Jack of All Trades).
- There is another way to thin Estates - that isn't better than Loan at thinning Coppers.
(And yes, sometimes Loan can be worth a purchase when one of the last two conditions isn't met. But Loan is a sad card in those cases.)
I think it was Awaclus that mentioned somewhere that opening Loan can in fact give you a decent chance at spiking $5 on the second reshuffle, or at least a more-decent-than-most-people-think chance, because of how it increases your money-to-Estate ratio. Not sure his (her?) exact wording, or what the exact probabilities are (obviously, they depend on your other opener), but this mindset has made Loan slightly more attractive to me since.
I think it was Awaclus that mentioned somewhere that opening Loan can in fact give you a decent chance at spiking $5 on the second reshuffle, or at least a more-decent-than-most-people-think chance, because of how it increases your money-to-Estate ratio. Not sure his (her?) exact wording, or what the exact probabilities are (obviously, they depend on your other opener), but this mindset has made Loan slightly more attractive to me since.
Huh? What is that in comparison to? Compared to opening nothing, opening Loan would give you a somewhat better chance at hitting $5 on your second shuffle, sure. But only by the exact same amount that opening Copper would. Less than opening Silver or any Terminal Silver or drawer.
I don't see why there needs to be a way to trash Estates for Loan to be good.
If Loan and Counterfeit were on the same board, I'd open Silver/Silver and rush Counterfeit
Does anybody have data on Loan gain rate for top players? Loan is very good when:What is the likelihood that those three conditions are met in a random kingdom with Loan? 30%? Loan is good enough in these situations that it certainly avoids a bottom 10 spot. But better than Forager? A great trasher that is useful in 70+% games? No way.
- You want to trash Coppers.
- You don't need treasures for economy (or your economy comes from a strong Silver gainer like Jack of All Trades).
- There is another way to thin Estates - that isn't better than Loan at thinning Coppers.
(And yes, sometimes Loan can be worth a purchase when one of the last two conditions isn't met. But Loan is a sad card in those cases.)
weak thinners like LookoutLookout is strong but isnt very good at hitting 5.
Just want to note that Loan is really terrible with Silver gainers; you might only trash 3-4 Copper with it before it becomes more of a nuisance than a help.
I expected to see Catapult right now and was set to argue that maybe it should be a bit higher. But since we haven't seen it yet, clearly it's being overrated.
Catapult, it's really bad. If you trash a copper, it's like a Militia that doesn't give you money. If you trash an estate, it's like a Trade Route without buy. Later you can trash good cards to curse your opponent, but that hurts your own deck almost as much as your opponent's. I mean, if you can spend an action to trash a $3, then your opponent can spend an action to trash their curse, and it comes out about the same for both of you, only you lost a $3.
In the previews, people were saying Catapult looks great, Rocks looks awful. It's quite the opposite. Rocks is the main saving grace of Catapult. In our group, as we've explored the strategy-space of Catapult, it seems the best thing you can do is buy ALL the Catapults, and then trash Catapults and Rocks to curse your opponents. The opposing player has to decide between buying a catapult (which accelerates towards Rocks, and is a terrible card) and not buying a catapult (possibly losing access to the only junker and trasher).
The great thing about Loan is how well it combos with Farming Village.
Plan should be higher. Still underestimated despite the big jump.
Whats a BM strategy?Plan should be higher. Still underestimated despite the big jump.
Qvist apparently disagrees with you. ;)
I think Enchantress should be higher. It curbstomps any sort of BM strategy that plays one terminal Action per turn.
Whats a BM strategy?Plan should be higher. Still underestimated despite the big jump.
Qvist apparently disagrees with you. ;)
I think Enchantress should be higher. It curbstomps any sort of BM strategy that plays one terminal Action per turn.
I think Enchantress should be higher. It curbstomps any sort of BM strategy that plays one terminal Action per turn.
Plan: Plan is like a cantrip trasher that you have in hand every turn, but which can only trash if you buy the right card. Often there's a cheap card around that you want a few copies of anyway.
it might not be pleasant to play with or against CatapultI disagree with this part.
Something you should consider is just how bad Catapult is when you're also being attacked. Basically none of that strategy works reliably if your hand has to be Catapult / Junk / Good Card, and committing to a full Catapult strategy like that doesn't leave you much, if any, economy to do anything else.
Look guys, Catapult kinda sucks. You'll see. It's not Mercenary.
Something you should consider is just how bad Catapult is when you're also being attacked. Basically none of that strategy works reliably if your hand has to be Catapult / Junk / Good Card, and committing to a full Catapult strategy like that doesn't leave you much, if any, economy to do anything else.
Look guys, Catapult kinda sucks. You'll see. It's not Mercenary.
That doesn't make Catapult bad, maybe it makes you dislike Catapult games because they're slower. The mirror scenario is very uninteresting when evaluating the strength of the card since that means buying Catapult has been a good choice there.
So maybe you should consider how bad your trade route is when you're opponent is using catapults!
Something you should consider is just how bad Catapult is when you're also being attacked. Basically none of that strategy works reliably if your hand has to be Catapult / Junk / Good Card, and committing to a full Catapult strategy like that doesn't leave you much, if any, economy to do anything else.
Look guys, Catapult kinda sucks. You'll see. It's not Mercenary.
That doesn't make Catapult bad, maybe it makes you dislike Catapult games because they're slower. The mirror scenario is very uninteresting when evaluating the strength of the card since that means buying Catapult has been a good choice there.
So maybe you should consider how bad your trade route is when you're opponent is using catapults!
Yeah, but... with a better trasher, you can trash 2 cards and it doesn't matter that your turn was a wash anyway. And when you aren't attacked (which isn't every turn), you have more space to actually build other stuff in. If there's no better trasher, yeah Catapult is nicer than Trade Route, no disputing that.
Attacking in general is more defensive than offensive. Buying victory cards is offensive.
Those 2 things are almost always the same thing.Attacking in general is more defensive than offensive. Buying victory cards is offensive.
I'm trying to highlight "attack as a means of preventing a future attack" vs "attack as a means of crippling the opponent's turn directly"
I ignore new cards for those stats. So if a card was on rank #20 and is now still on rank #20, but there are 2 new cards still coming up in this list it is now 2 ranks better than last year.But this is not true for the reported average %?
Forager isn't better than Steward though.
I think Bonfire is probably better than Amulet when all is said and done.
For one thing, Amulet's Silver-gaining function is oftenunderoverestimated
I notice that nobody has tried to defend the biggest loser so far, Guide.
I notice that nobody has tried to defend the biggest loser so far, Guide.
wtf. I had Bonfire in my top 5. I'm surprised at its rank.
For one thing, Amulet's Silver-gaining function is oftenunderoverestimated
FTFY
I really appreciate how Steward is considered much better than Amulet. Being a draw card after trashing is just so much, much better than being a terminal Copper / delayed Peddler, even if double Amulet works a bit smoother than double Steward and you get a bit more economy while trashing.
For one thing, Amulet's Silver-gaining function is oftenunderoverestimated
FTFY
How is it overestimated? Nobody ever talks about it at all.
Amulet can gain two Silvers with a single play, or it can gain a Silver and trash a card (like a Jack that doesn't draw but can trash Copper). That's pretty okay in engines, but it's absolutely bonkers in BM or slogs. In big engines, I agree Steward is slightly better than Amulet, but overall, I still think Amulet is better.
By the way, I also think Steward's draw is often overestimated. +2 Cards is not that great. If Steward is the only draw card in an engine, I wouldn't be so sure about the engine as a whole. And if it's not, you're often better off just taking +$2.
A small thing to consider with Masquerade is that we are ranking the version that doesn't pin (as much). That's a small part of Masquerade's overall effectiveness, but it's worth noting nonetheless.
I do hope you realize that when people say 'Silver is like a Curse', they're usually making a joke.
Yes, in engines you want to be very careful with gaining Treasure cards and a Silver often becomes dead weight later on, but gaining a Silver is by no means equivalent to trashing a Lab. People open Silver in engines, you know. But opening Amulet and using it to gain a Silver on the second shuffle might be more efficient in some cases.
And remember, not every board is an engine. Amulet is useful on almost every board, Steward just isn't.
Also the Masquerade pin is a 3-card combo, and thusly, it's not worth noting because it doesn't happen in real games of Dominion.Maquerade/Royal Carriage is/was a 2-card combo.
Also the Masquerade pin is a 3-card combo, and thusly, it's not worth noting because it doesn't happen in real games of Dominion.Maquerade/Royal Carriage is/was a 2-card combo.
Amulet can gain two Silvers with a single play, or it can gain a Silver and trash a card (like a Jack that doesn't draw but can trash Copper). That's pretty okay in engines, but it's absolutely bonkers in BM or slogs. In big engines, I agree Steward is slightly better than Amulet, but overall, I still think Amulet is better.
By the way, I also think Steward's draw is often overestimated. +2 Cards is not that great. If Steward is the only draw card in an engine, I wouldn't be so sure about the engine as a whole. And if it's not, you're often better off just taking +$2.
A small thing to consider with Masquerade is that we are ranking the version that doesn't pin (as much). That's a small part of Masquerade's overall effectiveness, but it's worth noting nonetheless.
Was this clear during the ranking? It seems strange to make a list which consists of 1st edition cards but with 2nd edition Masquerade.
It is literally the difference between two terminal stop cards and two terminal draw cards. Most engines would gladly take the extra draw, but may have more trouble babying around these dumb Coppers that take up space every other turn.
It is literally the difference between two terminal stop cards and two terminal draw cards. Most engines would gladly take the extra draw, but may have more trouble babying around these dumb Coppers that take up space every other turn.
Who the hell buys more than one Steward
There's almost always some better form of draw to transition into
Who the hell buys more than one Steward
It is literally the difference between two terminal stop cards and two terminal draw cards. Most engines would gladly take the extra draw, but may have more trouble babying around these dumb Coppers that take up space every other turn.
Who the hell buys more than one Steward
There's almost always some better form of draw to transition into
Many, many times I've bought two Steward to thin faster. Mostly on boards where getting a power $5 immediately isn't paramount. Or an Alms board or something. Is this that uncommon?
I pretty much always buy two Amulet though, it's not fast enough for an engine with just one. But it is a lot easier to trash one with the other later, so there's that.
It is literally the difference between two terminal stop cards and two terminal draw cards. Most engines would gladly take the extra draw, but may have more trouble babying around these dumb Coppers that take up space every other turn.
Who the hell buys more than one Steward
There's almost always some better form of draw to transition into
I mean, it's not as bad as getting two Chapels, but I only see multiple Stewards from a) bots or b) really sloggy games.
3. In the second shuffle, double Steward is basically strictly better than single Steward if getting thin is more important than racing to $5. The collision case is basically the same outcome as opening Steward / Anything Else - you don't buy anything on the collision turn, you get something on the other turn. The non collision case is much better - you trashed 4 cards by turn 5. Nice!
Steward + Silver is sometimes better than Steward + Steward. If they don't collide, you have a better chance of reaching $5.
3. In the second shuffle, double Steward is basically strictly better than single Steward if getting thin is more important than racing to $5. The collision case is basically the same outcome as opening Steward / SilverAnything Else- you don't buy anything on the collision turn, you get something on the other turn. The non collision case is much better - you trashed 4 cards by turn 5. Nice!
FV above urchin is criminalAgreed. We also have a lot of villages these days
it's half a stop card, people
Kinda funny to see the narrow definition of engine that some people have. A Kingdom without virtual coins besides those of Amulet, a Kingdom in which you can set up a draw engine and gotta get your Coins from Treasure cards, favours a trasher-gainer like Amulet over a trasher-drawer like Steward.
I don't see how you can build a decent draw engine with "+2 Cards" unless the opponent totally ignored the village pile and there is a gainer in the Kingdom. Village+Smithy is a Double Lab whereas Village+Moat is just one Lab and normally not worth it. Especially not if that Moat costs 3 and you only had 2 in your deck for the sake of trashing once you start to build your draw engine.Kinda funny to see the narrow definition of engine that some people have. A Kingdom without virtual coins besides those of Amulet, a Kingdom in which you can set up a draw engine and gotta get your Coins from Treasure cards, favours a trasher-gainer like Amulet over a trasher-drawer like Steward.
I would consider arguing the opposite here, actually. Those are kingdoms where you need lots of draw.
I don't see how you can build a decent draw engine with "+2 Cards" unless the opponent totally ignored the village pile and there is a gainer in the Kingdom. Village+Smithy is a Double Lab whereas Village+Moat is just one Lab and normally not worth it. Especially not if that Moat costs 3 and you only had 2 in your deck for the sake of trashing once you start to build your draw engine.Kinda funny to see the narrow definition of engine that some people have. A Kingdom without virtual coins besides those of Amulet, a Kingdom in which you can set up a draw engine and gotta get your Coins from Treasure cards, favours a trasher-gainer like Amulet over a trasher-drawer like Steward.
I would consider arguing the opposite here, actually. Those are kingdoms where you need lots of draw.
No, in this instance you want some Treasures for payload and Silver does the trick.
Your example did not feature a draw engine it all, it was just a shitload of Gold plus some extra buy that came out of thin air. Steward must really be a powerhouse if it can do thatI don't see how you can build a decent draw engine with "+2 Cards" unless the opponent totally ignored the village pile and there is a gainer in the Kingdom. Village+Smithy is a Double Lab whereas Village+Moat is just one Lab and normally not worth it. Especially not if that Moat costs 3 and you only had 2 in your deck for the sake of trashing once you start to build your draw engine.Kinda funny to see the narrow definition of engine that some people have. A Kingdom without virtual coins besides those of Amulet, a Kingdom in which you can set up a draw engine and gotta get your Coins from Treasure cards, favours a trasher-gainer like Amulet over a trasher-drawer like Steward.
I would consider arguing the opposite here, actually. Those are kingdoms where you need lots of draw.
No, in this instance you want some Treasures for payload and Silver does the trick.
Nah, not really. You can just read the post I already made for my argument against it - you deleted the quote, and then didn't respond to the arguments directly at all. I pointed out how many more stop cards a Silver payload engine with double Amulet has over a Gold payload engine with double Steward has. If you need draw so badly that Steward doesn't cut it, then you either can't build a good engine or you can't sustain 8 stop cards a turn. Pretty simple really.
As I said, Steward and Amulet are of roughly equivalent strength so arguments that Steward is better in each and every situation are more than just a a tad ridiculous.
Bullcrap. It is not a "strategy" but a response to what Chris actually claimed:As I said, Steward and Amulet are of roughly equivalent strength so arguments that Steward is better in each and every situation are more than just a a tad ridiculous.
You are remarkably consistent in your argument strategies, I'll give you that.
Amulet is good but it really isn't better than Steward in my experience. 90% of this is because Amulet can't ever draw. So I'm fine with Amulet below Steward. Forager isn't better than
As I said, Steward and Amulet are of roughly equivalent strength so arguments that Steward is better in each and every situation are more than just a a tad ridiculous.
Bullcrap. It is not a "strategy" but a response to what Chris actually claimed:As I said, Steward and Amulet are of roughly equivalent strength so arguments that Steward is better in each and every situation are more than just a a tad ridiculous.
You are remarkably consistent in your argument strategies, I'll give you that.Amulet is good but it really isn't better than Steward in my experience. 90% of this is because Amulet can't ever draw. So I'm fine with Amulet below Steward. Forager isn't better than
I am not going to put up with your crap, and quite frankly, nobody else should either.Looks like somebody is still mad because I pointed out the difference between turns and shuffles.
I am not going to put up with your crap, and quite frankly, nobody else should either.Looks like somebody is still mad because I pointed out the difference between turns and shuffles.
Looks like you get even mader when I point out that Chris did in fact argue for what he did argue for.
Well, people who have a postmodern relativist attitude towards facts are hard to argue with. And if you piss them, as well as p***philes like Awaclus, off, you must have doen something right.
Well, people who have a postmodern relativist attitude towards facts are hard to argue with.I understand none of this. Who are postmodern relativists on here? What does that even mean? How does it make people hard to argue with? Why am I writing a response to an obviously semi-trolling post?
That guy went mad when I pointed out that Chris did actually argue precisely what I claimed (just like he went mad in another thread because I dared to point out that you do not automatically shuffle once per turn), namely that Steward is better than Amulet ... and you seriously accuse ME of being a troll?Well, people who have a postmodern relativist attitude towards facts are hard to argue with.I understand none of this. Who are postmodern relativists on here? What does that even mean? How does it make people hard to argue with? Why am I writing a response to an obviously semi-trolling post?
Village plus Steward-draw is equal to a Lab. You cannot build a draw engine with that.There are actually many cases where Lab or equivalent is sufficient for a draw engine. Some examples include: strong villages such as Wandering Minstrel or Fishing Village, cantrip payload such as Grand Market, Highway or Peddlers and strong trashing such as Steward or Chapel. Obviously such a sweeping statement that you cannot build a draw engine with +"2 Cards" cards is completely ridiculous.
I actually only once build an actual draw engine with "+2 Cards" cards so either I am totally ignorantYou yourself even state that you have built a draw engine with "+2 Cards" cards in the very next sentence contradicting yourself and proving how preposterous your previous claim was. In fact you seem to have summed up what everyone else has been trying to tell you here better than they have been able to, so I don't see why this argument has continued.
There are actually many cases where Lab or equivalent is sufficient for a draw engine. Some examples include: strong villages such as Wandering Minstrel or Fishing Village, cantrip payload such as Grand Market, Highway or Peddlers and strong trashing such as Steward or Chapel.