Dominion Strategy Forum

Dominion => Game Reports => Help! => Topic started by: Kirian on October 12, 2016, 01:18:41 pm

Title: Engine loses to BM-*Magpie*?
Post by: Kirian on October 12, 2016, 01:18:41 pm
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/a/a9/Transmogrify.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Transmogrify) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/2/28/Counterfeit.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Counterfeit) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/2/23/Stash.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Stash) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/2/22/Treasure_Trove.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Treasure Trove) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/f/fd/Treasury.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Treasury)
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/f/f7/Develop.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Develop) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/5/59/Duplicate.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Duplicate) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/c/c1/Herald.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Herald) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/1/10/Magpie.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Magpie) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/f/fc/Plaza.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Plaza)
Code: [Select]
Develop, Duplicate, Herald, Magpie, Plaza, Transmogrify, Counterfeit, Stash, Treasure Trove, Treasury
http://gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?https://dominion-game-logs.s3.amazonaws.com/game_logs/20161012/log.0.1476291672108.txt

My plan: draw my deck with Herald-Magpie-Treasury, multiple buys with Counterfeit.

My opponent's plan:  BM-Magpie.  (They buy a single Herald, getting its effect just once.)

Opponent buys Province on 6(??), 9, 11, 12, 13, 14.  And my engine is now going, but I can't buy PPD now due to PPR.  And after I buy DDDD... I sputter.

I spent turns 10, 11, and 12 buying payload.  Was this engine non-viable?  Should I have greened earlier?

(My Herald buy on T15 is an obvious blunder, but didn't change the outcome.)
Title: Re: Engine loses to BM-*Magpie*?
Post by: Mic Qsenoch on October 12, 2016, 01:39:33 pm
You seem to be incredulous, and sure the first Province is too early, but why doesn't a deck where Estates have been changed to Silver, the low value treasures are being chopped by Counterfeit and has 6 Magpies sound good to you? I mean I guess you could call it Magpie BM but it seems to me that he's doing a lot more than that. I would have liked a Treasure Trove or two in his deck as well.

As for the engine, I dislike the first Herald and Plaza buys a lot, I'd much rather they were Magpies to try and win that split more. It seems like a tough job to try and trash fast enough here, but if you do get there the only way you can possibly explode powerfully enough to catch up is with a lot of Developing and Duplicating and playing stuff you gained on the same turn. I've really no idea if it works out though (the speed of both strategies depends on the Magpie split/luck. I think I like a 2nd Counterfeit before the Treasuries and there was at least one turn where Copper was trashed over Silver, but Silver would have gotten you to $8 and two engine pieces.
Title: Re: Engine loses to BM-*Magpie*?
Post by: Kirian on October 12, 2016, 02:08:35 pm
Perhaps I'm simply underestimating Magpie?  I guess I haven't really felt it was a power card.
Title: Re: Engine loses to BM-*Magpie*?
Post by: Qvist on October 12, 2016, 02:33:10 pm
Quote from: Kirian on October 12, 2016, 02:08:35 pm
Perhaps I'm simply underestimating Magpie?  I guess I haven't really felt it was a power card.

Quote from: Qvist on November 11, 2015, 08:09:12 am
#5 Magpie (Adventures) Weighted Average: 85.4%
Title: Re: Engine loses to BM-*Magpie*?
Post by: gloures on October 12, 2016, 02:45:00 pm
Magpie BM, is definitely a thing. In BM, magpie can be much closer to lab then in an engine (and magpie is a quite strong card, a bit overestimated in last year Qvist rankings though  :P, but quite strong nonetheless). If you have a simple way of getting rid of your estates, magpie  BM is very strong.

http://gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?http://dominion-game-logs.s3.amazonaws.com/game_logs/20161012/log.0.1476250442723.txt



In this game, yesterday, I played magpie BM and got 5 provinces in 11(!) turns. I do feel I got a bit lucky (specially turn 6, which led to me decisively (and quickly) winning the magpie split), and plan is a better enabler than develop, but it does show that it can be really fast strategy.
Title: Re: Engine loses to BM-*Magpie*?
Post by: Chris is me on October 12, 2016, 02:51:52 pm
This is a board almost purpose built for a Magpie based money strategy.

I've been moving away from calling these sorts of more intricate things BM strategies, just because BM seems to imply "just buy that card and money every turn", where here there is some optimization.

Develop / Magpie here has a serious chance of getting $5 on the first shuffle, quickly turns Estates into Silver topdecked, and in the end game you can Magpie into Silver / Duchy if you're desperate. 2 Counterfeits on the first two $5s, followed by a Treasure Trove, increase the average value of that money tremendously. You might even snag a Duplicate or two if you have a spare $4 buy (you should not).

Magpie basically becomes a Lab here that sometimes gains copies of itself. The Treasure does cool things for payload all on its own. Meanwhile your deck actively makes Magpie worse by lowering the Treasure density for essentially the same amount of draw in an ideal world, but really less draw.
Title: Re: Engine loses to BM-*Magpie*?
Post by: LastFootnote on November 02, 2016, 11:42:58 am
Perhaps another way to think of it is: activated Heralds are Lost Cities, but what's the point of villages like that with no terminal draw or payload? Really they're just sometimes-Labs here. Magpies are also sometimes-Labs, but they self-replicate.